I am going to start a thread to discuss the LBS and their journey along with the MLC'er
HB gave us this all sermons thread in the archives
Edit - these have been purged and are no longer on DB.
This discusses the following topics:
-Timeline
-Life Lessons
-Total Detachment
-Becoming the Opposite
-Temptation during Total Rejection
-Forgiveness
-Acceptance
Now it seems that the trip of the MLC'er is pretty well documented thru the 6 stages. HB has given us these sermons for the LBS. But what exactly is the trip for the LBS spouse. Does it mirror the the one in crisis? Always leading and letting the MLC'er to catch up? Or are we on our own journey? HB has explained that she watched her husband go thru his crisis and then went thru her own transition later.
I have finished my "Male menopause book" and am working on the second book "Surviving male menopause" so I see that I am on my own separate journey. I would guess that everyone here is on this journey also (or getting ready to do the same thing). So I welcome all inputs into this.
P.S. Jack didn't really mean to call you out on this thread but I did like YOUR idea of actually discussing something of some use.
But what exactly is the trip for the LBS spouse. Does it mirror the the one in crisis? Always leading and letting the MLC'er to catch up? Or are we on our own journey?
I'm not Jack, but I'll add my 2 cents.
I believe the LBS goes through the stages of grief.
Denial, Anger, Bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
Somewhat similar to what the mlc'er goes through I suppose. I do believe the stages aren't clear cut for us either. We suffer from a combination of them and bounce back and forth too.
Most importantly, IMO we can become stuck just as easily as they can.
Hello OP,
Trapt is absolutely right; the stages a LBS goes through are much the same as the MLC'er...AND the LBS can get stuck within one or several.
There were no steps that I was ever able to write out for the LBS..and no set way they were to start their journey.
I'd tried, but failed in that one; and it came out as the lessons/sermons.
All I ever knew was that it started by looking within myself and encouraging others to do the same... to see what needed to be fixed within. When I wrote the "Control Lessons"..that may have been the FIRST thing I could see that I needed to understand and learn first....but someone may see something else as the starting and learning point for them.
I eventually looked within the mirror to see what I really was, and it was a total shock! It was like I'd worked from outside inward; if that makes any sense. I learned first that control was NOT mine; that I could do nothing for him, then I looked inward at that mirror within. It was only when I looked within that I was able to see the areas I needed to work on, improve and change....but I didn't begin that until I was READY to do it.
Each person "gets it" in their own time, and each stage is navigated and finished at the LBS' own pace.
Suggestions can be made, advice can be given, but the final decision is up to the LBS; as to how long their journey will take. I think it also depends on how much self-honesty they can stand. Many people have a problem understanding they have problems within..we ALL do; but they don't seem to understand that. So, the journey can often start and stop in many places.
There are so many differences in people, it's difficult to say even now, what would be a good "step" method, or even outline the basic stages of the LBS journey, other than what Trapt said about the stages of grief.
This is a good idea, OP, yet, and people being what they are, have to literally see and understand what they have to do for themselves and why they have to do it, or all the instruction in the world won't help them.
What I remember was this:
I was ONE angry chick, denying it all..trying to bargain with God, depressed to the point of suicide, that was ALL in the beginning after the bomb dropped.....I had to ACCEPT what was happening, ACCEPT things were never going to be the same ever again, and finally, ACCEPT what I was going to have to do before I even started my journey. It took me three months..some, it takes LONGER than that.
THEN, the stages of grief were navigated once again, as I realized and saw the reality of quite a few things as I went on with my journey....so, it seemed that I may have navigated these stages twice. Once BEFORE total reality hit, and once after.
In each time, I reached Acceptance; after having navigated all the way through. I slid backward several times each time, but came forward as I understood more as time went on.
This was within HIS MLC, not mine.
The point being, you have to get the LBS to the point of understanding what has happened, first, before anything else comes about. Then they have to ACCEPT it.
Now, anyone can disagree with me if they want to; but until I UNDERSTOOD what was going on, I didn't understand WHY I had to go on this journey for me.
I can almost guarantee that most everyone here needed a basic understanding of what happened BEFORE they finally pulled away, completed detaching and distancing, THEN their journey started.
Until the majority of "why" questions are answered, most people generally will NOT BUDGE, continuing to insist that the MLC/WAS is totally at fault, that they have to change, not the LBS, and the discussion continues until something gives, or not.
It is one of the BIGGEST reasons people continue to ask questions, until that understanding is met; they have a need, as we ALL do, to try and UNDERSTAND what's wrong, and why can't I fix this, and why do I have to do this when my MLC/WAS spouse was the one who did me so wrong...and the questions are endless.
I've fielded many in my time, and still do, even to this day.
Focusing on yourself is LEARNED, not natural.
These are just IMHO, my thoughts, to add my own two cents to the mix.
I can tell you one of the two words that I muttered when I saw the thread.
The first one was muther. : )
Does the LBS go through stages?
Is the LBS greieving the loss of something dear to them?
I do believe the LBS does go through stages as well....OR should.
Like the MLCer going through REPLAY a billion times. I think the LBSer cycles as well.
I really like HB's take on it from her point of view.
I think the LBSer hits ACCEPTANCE many times (or hopes they have) get knocked out of it alot before it finally sticks.
I think the LBSer tends to stick into Anger and Depression the most...with a modification of Denial.
That modification of Denial is that somehow, they are going to be different they like DBing, think it is good, but that they can somehow do it differently.
Until the majority of "why" questions are answered, most people generally will NOT BUDGE, continuing to insist that the MLC/WAS is totally at fault, that they have to change, not the LBS, and the discussion continues until something gives, or not.
Thank you for this HB.
I hope the LBS realizes that many of the 'why' questions they absolutely think they have to have an answer too...they really do not. Everyone dies with unanswered questions, but that doesn't prevent us from living. Why should these. In many cases the MLC answers are NOT good enough for the LBS anyway so they keep digging and damage any repairs that have been made.
Stop asking.
As for not working on yourself?
That is just sad. : )
For me, A lot of the "hard" questions were the ones that came from me, and directed toward myself.
I knew the answers, but stood in fear of the question itself. I had read and absorbed so much information about MLC, That sorting it all out and applying what pertained to me was a task in itself. It wasn't until I started asking the correct questions, that the answers came.
And in time, the answers I had always seeked out, didn't really matter as much.
This had been MY time...
I took the time to feel all of the stages. It was kind of taking each individual emotion, and taking it to the dry-cleaners. It was laundered, and pressed. When it came back, sometimes it was wrinkled again, and needed more work.
I decided early, that there would be no time line for ME. It was going to take as long as it took. What I DID decide was ....my marriage was worth at least two years of limbo. And that I would give it two years BEFORE I made any decisions about my future.
That would give me time to heal, and heal the proper way. I detached, cried, screamed at God for what he was putting me through, and then would scream for more to find my breaking point. I haven't yet.
Toward the end of the two year , self-imposed time line. I found myself at the tail end of anger. The anger that I had harbored and held so close to me as a shield, I no longer needed. Is there still anger ? Yes, just in a different way. I am no longer angry at her for what she is/had gone through. I am more angry at the daily actions that still scream MLC from every facet of her being, and affect rational thinking where the children are involved.
Releasing that anger for her MLC has enabled me to reach acceptance, and I have been there for some time now. Accepting who I am, and envisioning my life for the future of me and my children. Knowing that I did what I could with the tools I had at that time, and FORGIVING MYSELF for whatever I had done. Placing it God's hands so to speak.
That in itself is a hard thing to do......Forgiving oneself. Can it be done ? Yes, it is just an avenue that keeps a lot of LBSs stuck in a rut.
When I had finally reached the point where my path had gotten smoother, I had promised myself a decision.
My decision was to live.....
For me, for my children, for my friends, for God, for Faith, for anyone that may cross my path one day.
It is also my belief that the journey of the LBS never really ends. It is a daily conscious effort to do better.
To be the person that I (we) envision(ed).
All of that Windex to see more clearly in the mirror.....that should never end for anyone, at anytime.
When we feel, or think that we have made it, that is when we truly have failed. That is when we have truly disrespected ourselves out of all of that hard work we did to get to this point.
There is no correct path toward healing.....
And it cannot be altered...if the end result is to be whole again.....
I also think the stages a LBS goes through reflect that stages of grief. You do have to grieve the loss of the M and the R you had before.
For me, the changes began once I hit a little bit of acceptance early on (and like Jack said, cycled in and out of that until I am now getting closer to total acceptance) and realized that nothing could change the situation, no begging, pleading, etc. I could wallow or I could live. I chose to live And to look at myself and realize I could be better and should be better and started working on that.
I agree that the LBS goes through Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's stages of grief, though there are also other things mixed in, such as facing one's fears, working through one's core issues, learning detachment, that are more about self-growth than dealing with grief.
Also, even if you've reached Acceptance, once you get to Piecing, it's as though you have to cycle through the whole process again, on a different level, perhaps to "test" the changes and ensure that they hold.
Need a Voight-Kampff test for MLCers.
Interesting thoughts for sure. I'm trying to see where I am at in this journey myself.
It seems looking back that it's been 3 seperate journey's from the first waw 15 years ago, to the 2nd 2.5 years ago to the latest 6 months ago, and yet they all seem to roll into one.
As I've read here on occasion in the last few weeks one thing that seems clear to me is that on the 1st go around that was maybe more text book mlc for w and was accompanied by an a, neither she nor I learned much from it and never addressed many of the core issues. I pretty much gave her a free pass on the whole thing, and even though I felt it was all my fault for quite awhile and felt I made some changes, I don't think I ever really sought and got her input on what caused it and how to improve me in the way SHE needed.
On round 2 I again accepted all the blame and a great amount of depression. It took me about 3 months of denial to finally accept she was gone, probably not coming back and I was going to be divorced. Then the depression really kicked in for another 3 months. It wasn't until circumstances forced a complete detachment and nc that I could come to grips with reality and that life would go on and I'd be ok. That period took 3 months before we reconciled. But again, certainly not enough work on either's part of self introspection to get to the core issues and then figure out how to best work on them individually and jointly.
Fast forward to the present sitch. There has not been any ea's or pa's, and she was almost in constant contact throughout. All the emotions on this go around seemed to be condensed and shorter, but a similar pattern, just not as intense. There is a difference this time though.
I have moved through the stages quicker. I have seen how necessary this may be for her, to be her own person and let her do and experience what she feels she needs to. I've tried to look in the mirror more then previously and listen to posts on this board. Not just the ones to me specifically, but in reading others I could see where I was making mistakes as I would say-hey dummy, quit doing that. Only to realize I was doing the same thing. I wanted her to have to need me, while I am just now realizing she doesn't and shouldn't for her mental health. I am struggling some with that fact.
The other part that is completely different then ever before for me RIGHT now is questioning if I really want to, can be, forever married to this woman. I've accepted, read and returned email from other gals who seem to be interested in me, and it is quite a nice stroke to an ego that's been beat on, kicked and generally abused by the person who has been given complete access to it. I don't entertain ideas of sex with any of these other gals, but it has helped me to move forward in knowing life would be ok if my W decides to do something different then stay married to me.
I've realized I am in a certain stage, even though I'm still processing what it is. It may be where I'm being faced with having to really asess where I'm at and what I want? I DO know what I don't want anymore, and that's the yo-yo life. I think part of that has been not giving my W sufficient time to process what she is feeling, and maybe myself also? Getting back together just because, rather then examining more closely what got us apart, and living for ourselves enough that we are ok with living with each other.
This part of the journey is where I think I'm at right now. I'm not sure what comes next for either one of us? We seem to be piecing, but I don't see living together for awhile yet. I'm not sure if we even will? The W seems content to let it ride like it is, and I, though certainly nowhere near content, am not sure right now what I want. Letting her call me occasionally, seeing each other once a week, and acting like a couple of teenagers in the back of her car w/o any clothes on is kinda fun, different, exciting and certainly a 180, but the longer this goes, the less it's a draw for me.
So where am I at in this journey? Maybe I'm the one who is at the big decision door? It's in a way better then I could have hoped, and in another forcing ME to take a serious look at the guy in the mirror and what he can and really wants to live with.
I know-A long rambling rant of sorts. But the posts from OP definitly caught my attention and got me to thinking. That's good!
Also, even if you've reached Acceptance, once you get to Piecing, it's as though you have to cycle through the whole process again, on a different level, perhaps to "test" the changes and ensure that they hold.
I agree, and even if you don't make it to piecing, life or your higher power or whatever label you wish to try to use, will test you regardless.
I know for me, after going through the process for a time, I could recognize it and tell when a change was about to take place.
Something would happen to set me in motion. It might be a thought, or a person, or an event. The wheel upstairs would begin to turn and I would cycle through some anger and depression and a bit of confusion at times. I could never put my finger on what that "it" was until after the fact.
Slowly things would become much more clear as I worked through whatever it was. I felt more balanced, confident, stronger and I would feel more at peace with everything.
This pattern seemed to repeat itself for quite some time, however each time it became shorter and less severe. Being able to recognize it helped a great deal.
Wow OP making people think...:)
I have to say that I agree with HB on many points.
I once chronicled my journey on here so people could see the process that I went through...
But it really is such an individual process for each of us.
Acceptance was something that was hard fought for me. First accepting that MLC even was real, because that really did mean that there was not a lot of traditional marriage counseling stuff that I could do to fix it. Then accepting that my H was in a MLC. Then accepting that I had no choice but to either join him in misery or start living for me.
Living for me meant much mirror work. More than I care to admit to. I had my own issues, some from childhood, some from the religion I was raised with, some cultural, some from adulthood and my marriage.
Filtering out all of the garbage, releasing all of the anger that I held inside, anger at myself, God, and others...learning forgivness for others and for myself and self love were two of my biggies.
Accepting that my abandonment issues were really a lack of self confidence for me, and learning how to find that confidence again...
Then accepting that my H actually WAS trying to deal with his issues and that was HIS process to go through. And I could NOT help him. Except to allow him to take his journey, thus allowing us both to continue on our paths.
There is still so much that I need to work on. I do believe that it will be an ongoing lifelong process.
Every once in a while something comes my way that either shows me what is next to work on, or convinces me that I am on the correct life path for me.
One thing I have learned from this place, is that there isn't a set way for people to go through this. Men and women seem to come at their healing from different starting points and get stuck in different places.
And getting stuck is ok once in a while, as long as eventually you take that next step forward. FEAR is what really keeps us stuck. In the long run, there really isn't anything to be afraid of, but you often don't know that until you just simply try...
I like this switch in the board. Instead of focusing on dealing with our spouses...instead we are focusing on the changes within ourselves. Very deep..
My thoughts on the LBS stages;
Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?
Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!
Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.
Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.
Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.
Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.
Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.
Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.
Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.
Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.
Just my $0.02
Wow, LFW. That was so well put!
As I reviewed LFW's post I was trying to see at what point I was. I thought for awhile I was in the bottom 2. Then 3. Then as I reviewed it I could see that at times I may still be in the depression stage, but working also on forgiveness and self awareness.
No one stage or no one answer. For each, there are combination's I think of where we are at. And I do find myself recycling (hey I'm going green) through many of them, but shorter in several as I move forward to the others.
I agree. It's refreshing to focus on where WE might be at, and what might be coming along on the never ending journey.
The more I let go of her and search for me, the further down the road it seems I get, and her too.
DBS-
Give yourself credit....I have you pegged moving out of resentment into acceptance. Your posting is indicative of that. You go for good periods of time calm and collective and then something pops up...kicking resentment. Right now for you it is mainly financially related.
If it makes you feel any better....it is all uphill from here.
Really great food for thought!
I find that lately I've stopped analyzing my H's behaviors so much, and don't really feel like figuring out where I am either..not sure why. I figured things were percolating within me and things would become more apparent later.
I can certainly see where I've gone through the stages of grief, am still learning detachment, definitely have triggers(financial/effects on children) for falling into anger/resentment occasionally. I'm still working on forgiving absolutely and completely by becoming more compassionate in thought and word.
I'm working on me. I'm seeing that my daughters' are still processing everything and going through the stages of grief as well(D12 is still very much in anger).
Its pretty awesome to see so many of us on the path of growth- at whatever stage, moving forward while supporting each other and helping each other along. Thank you to all of who have supported and are supporting me!
WOW, this was so helpful to me...to see where I was... where Ive been, then bounced back again...then moved onto the next one... Very Very helpful indeed.
Thank you ((( )))
LFW-Yeah, you're probably right. I remember the other day (before the whoopie in the back of the car) thinking what in the heck has happened to the self confident, I'll figure it all out and be ok guy I used to be.
Well he's coming back, and yes part of it is related to finances, and where my biz is at right now, and where that puts me.
I'm getting there though.
I gotta say though-The goof nut kid in me would have liked to see the look on the W's face if a cop would have pulled up there during our "replay" thing. I would have laughed!!!!
LFW - I will be reading and rereading this for weeks. I see so many of my feelings and actions in there that I can relate to, and I'm somewhere in the middle - depression I think - but anger and resentment are omnipresent. Looks like such a long road but its encouraging that others have made the journey and come out ok at the end.
I am working on a post for this but I can see it might take me a few more days of thinking to come up with exactly what I want to say. So far I would like to thank everyone for contributing. The responses are fantastic!
I know that we are still missing something here. Cyrena touched on it, self growth issues, detachment. GAL. Myaybe there is more.
I would like to encourage everyone who is reading this (even if you are a newbie) to write something of your thoughts. That may help me with my post (or anyone elses).
As a newbie I have read this interesting thread.
I have tried to find where fear would sit? Fear of your H/W decisions, moving forward alone, lost love, boundaries the LBS has to make.
Maybe it sits with depression, anger and resentment.
Personally I think I am in resentment but not made acceptance yet as I am fearful of his next move and there is also a touch of anger but not often now.
OP-
Isn't GAL'ing just an action? Which then leads to a step of the journey. I think of GAL like medication. There are two ways of being...sick or healthy. The medication just helps you get from one to the other.
Same with detachment....yet another verb. It helps you deal with anger through acceptance. The less you detach, the more likely you are to cycle through those stages.
180's-Yet again...an action
Or means to end.
Just takes awhile to realize what the end is when we start the journey.
Libby,
I agree with your placement of fear. Very often fear is rooted in anger and vice versa.
Take my side job for instance. I am a bouncer, so it isn't unusual for me to have a drunk patron in my face trying to push my buttons. I know that if I get angry it is because I fear he is correct...or if I am fearful of his threats I might get angry and lash out. So by seeing the situation objectively...I feel neither fear nor anger...which makes me a very proficient bouncer.
LFW
Yes they are actions! So the question is how do they fit in to the journey. Are they necessary actions?
I know detachment is a necessity. Without learning this action you will be unable to move forward.
OP-
So are they necessary?
Action invokes change...inaction promotes stagnation.
Self growth is like a house in need of painting....If you don't go out and paint it...it will only get worse.
You go out and paint and then relax on your laurels...soon the house will once again need painting.
You paint the house and continue to maintain it....it will be a long time until you have to repaint the whole thing again.
See we take out of a situation what we put into...so by detaching and improving ourselves...we bring more to the table.
I strongly feel that the current state of marital discord in our society is a direct reflection of our overall disconnect with relationships. Many people go into a relationship expecting a certain return without a personal investment in that return. Yet if you make a positive investment in a relationship....many times you get positive return.
I think JFK really alluded to the problem 40 years ago...
Think not what a relationship can do for you, but what you can do for a relationship.
I have thought that so far thru this process that we, the LBS kind of go thru a MLC of our own as far as how we are encouraged to do things we enjoy but haven't done for a long time, to try new things, to start taking care of ourselves, diet, exercise, new hair do's etc, doing of the 180's. An example for me would be that I am buying new clothes that are more form fitting rather than the looser things I used to buy and when I picked out the paint color for my room, I picked out a bold reddish color when I would normally choose a nuetral...why not, it is only paint, lose the fear...if I hate it I can change it!
Not sure if that applies here but they are my thoughts. This was a great idea OP!!!
CW,
We DO go through a similar process.
Only thing is .....
We get to do that with Dignity and Honor.
Without all of the confusion, lying, manipulation that our MLCers do.
This path is a healthy part of life, and most people go through it without a hitch.
It is very powerful, and very neccessary for self growth, and life.
These life transitions happen for us throughout our lives.
And if a transitional cycle is missed, then it has to be re-visited in order for new growth to occur.
It is a missed cycle that usually induces the monster we all know as MLC.....
In time, most of us here , will find our time spent as a gift from our whacked out MLCers....
If we aren't afraid to do the work, it will be a gift....
CW,
We DO go through a similar process.
Only thing is .....
We get to do that with Dignity and Honor.
Without all of the confusion, lying, manipulation that our MLCers do.
I couldn't think of how to word what I was thinking and you nailed it for me...thankyou!
LFW
First of all your name is all wrong - You are never at a LostForWords. You seem to always come up with the right ones.
Your contribution to this thread so far has been invaluable!
Of course the actions are necessary. When you don't paint the house it rots. JFK certainly knew what he was talking about.
So I guess my question is which of these actions is needed?
Certainly this is an individual thing as each sich is different. We are all in our own areas of expertise. But if I liken this to baseball we all need to go touch all four bases and then go back into the dugout. Maybe after that we become a manager or coach and help others go around the bases. In some innings we get left at first or second base, and have to repeat our trip again. The basic idea being that we have to complete the trip. We need certain skills to do this, hitting, running, thinking. Leave one of these things out and you may keep running into left field.
Lost...
Dam I wish you would articulate your thoughts better....
JK bro...
I'm gonna throw a wrench in for ya here.....
What if.....
One thought they were already a really great house painter, and their efforts were irrelevant to the up keep of the house ?
If you catch were I am trying to go here.....
Well Mach you know that the shoemakers kids never have any shoes!
Well Mach you know that the shoemakers kids never have any shoes!
Yes.....
That is what I have heard....
Do they live down the street from you ?
I thought most kids in the South didn't have shoes.
One thought they were already a really great house painter, and their efforts were irrelevant to the up keep of the house ?
Well Mach....we really want to get deep today don't you? The funny thing is Jack and I have been discussing this a bit on my thread. It really is a question bigger than our MLC/LBS discussion...is it not? Something than can apply to everyone?
What defines "great"? Or is it just an delusion that we have of our own grandeur. If we look back in history....some of the "greatest" people shared a common treat...humbleness.
So is it that we are delusioned by our greatness....and it is only after we look in the mirror and see ourselves truly do we realize that "great" or "perfect" is not really the case....we all have work to do.
So for the LBS....we need to look in that mirror and accept our own faults. Maybe it is we worked to much (enabled by the thought "it is for the family") or we focus on our spouse to much (enabled by the thought..."I want to show them the love they should feel")....neither of these are "bad" traits. Maybe even defined by society as being "great" spouses. The question for the mirror though...."Were these really "great" traits or are the weaknesses caused by lack of priorities?".
I think the only "greatness" we can achieve is by accepting our imperfections.
I thought most kids in the South didn't have shoes.
That's why ya'll live in the North....
I think you can boil this down to what you do with the time your spouse is in MLc...or how long you are an LBSer...
How long your remain an LBSer makes more sense...since it is up to you.
Do you waste the time?
Do you sue the time?
I am GRATEFUL to be an LBS. Not because of the relationship I have...but because of who I am. And Who I am, helps in whatever relationship I have. I am better for becoming better.
Well Mach....we really want to get deep today don't you?
Sure....Why the heck not.....
The funny thing is Jack and I have been discussing this a bit on my thread. It really is a question bigger than our MLC/LBS discussion...is it not? Something than can apply to everyone?
I have been reading along....Thats why I asked you here though...
I liked the thoughts there...and with the "star" power of a fine, upstanding fellow like the Pirate....the words will surely get spread .... : )
So is it that we are delusioned by our greatness....and it is only after we look in the mirror and see ourselves truly do we realize that "great" or "perfect" is not really the case....we all have work to do.
This is the nugget Lost.
This was, is , and always will be my point....
Thank you for wording it exactly the same, but completely different...
People don't always read, or see the same way.
And regardless of my ribbing you about articulation earlier, you do have a way that reaches people....
I think the only "greatness" we can achieve is by accepting our imperfections.
This is the path of the LBS.....kind of in a mission statement kinda way......
Thank you again for patronizing me Lost....You are a class act in my book.
I think you can boil this down to what you do with the time your spouse is in MLc...or how long you are an LBSer...
How long your remain an LBSer makes more sense...since it is up to you.
Do you waste the time?
Do you use the time?
bah stupid edit feature timed out...
Thanks Mach...I have to go find my shoes now. Seems I lost them when I moved south
I liked the thoughts there...and with the "star" power of a fine, upstanding fellow like the Pirate....the words will surely get spread .... : )
Its all about marketing!
...small market.
Drink Diet Coke Jack does!
pfffpt.
Work thread by the way.
Not much love lost for JFK the philanderer.
You can paint the house, stay up to snuff on the upkeep, and think you are doing quite well, only to find out the other part of the equation never really liked the color. What?
Now you can bitch about not speaking up, why they just "went along", or you can start the hard part of scraping, or sandblasting, or heck, I guess even getting another house?
If you're wise, you listen, pay attention and make the changes. If not, you mope and whine, drag your feet and the house gets uglier and uglier until no one likes it. Then you're gonna have a heck of a time getting anyone to even look at it, let alone want to live in it or buy it.
Just an old contractor's way of looking at it I guess.
Just want to add in the links that inspired this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...444#Post1942444Also a link to the current thread on standing vs leaving.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1I would encourage anyone reading this thread to read these threads, to help them understand the LBS.
Again I would also encourage everyone reading to leave their comments on this thread.
stage One - Frickin' Hell
Can't eat, can't sleep. Can't listen to music, can't watch movies. Obsessed with knowing everything that your spouse is doing. Hang on every word your spouse speaks. Write or verbalize numerous pledges to become a better person. Read everything you can on the sanctity of marriage and how to save a marriage, and actually think there is something to be gained by sharing all of it with your spouse. Willing to appeal to any and all friends and family in an effort to "reach" your spouse. Emotions run the gamut: fear, anger, depression, anxiety, hopelessness.
Stage Two - A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.. At some point a little bit of knowledge finally creeps into the picture. May come thru a friend or family member, or maybe something you've been reading. You realize the first two fundamental truths - 1) You're not perfect, and 2) You can't control what another person chooses to do.
In this stage we start to try to improve ourselves, but it's mostly improvement done to try to win our spouses affection. We stop pressuring, we stop pleading, begging, etc, and try being nice and giving them a little space.
Unfortunately, our spouse responds to the change by doing or saying something nice or thoughtful back to us. This is unfortunate because we jump at the crumb thrown our way and reach out again, get summarily rejected, and generally wind up back in stage one again.
Stage Three - "Fool Me once, Shame on You..."
After a period of time working thru stage one again, we move on to this stage where we are now a little wiser to the ways of the MLC spouse. We begin to understand that niceness CAN lead to niceness in return, but that it does NOT change how our spouse feels fundamentally.
We renew our focus on ourselves, this time with less of the motivation coming from our desire to impress our spouse and more of it coming from a genuine desire to rediscover the person we always hoped we would be. We begin to venture out into the world again, start focusing a bit better on work and friends.
We are less inclined to obssess about our spouse, but it's still there. Ocasionally it rears it's head, usually when we are surprised with another hurtful revelation, and this can still send us back to stage one or two for a refresher course.
Two key things happen here. First, we actually begin to see some personal progress that we feel good about. Secondly, that progress establishes a determination that will fuel us forward.
Stage Four - "How Long Does It Take Again to Establish a New Habit?"
Practice does not always make perfect, but regular practice does eventually establish a habit. Making progress in ourselves causes us to want to make more progress. We begin remembering things we always thought we would do or try and realize that we now have that opportunity. Slowly but surely we begin chipping away at the rust that had accumulated on the person we once were, and we begin to like the return of the old, energetic self.
We still hold out hope that our spouse will be a part of our life again. But we've also reached a point of honesty and realized that our relationship had become something less than what it once was. We can see that both spouses had let hurts, disappointments, and laziness diminish the love and commitment that we started out with. We acknowledge inside ourselves that both of us truly had much that needed worked on and improved.
Despite the love we still have for our spouse, we've begun to entertain the notion that it might just be possible to still have a full and meaningful life, even if they choose to never return.
These are just some of my weird thoughts about the process, and of course they come from my experiences, which are not necessarily the same as others.
Bill
I LIKE THIS...... THANK YOU
Sounds awfully close to me too, at least as far as I've moved through this anyway. From #4 back to #1 at times or #2, depending on the length and breadth of the "niceities".
Great thread. Wonderful insight. It is a journey for the LBS, for some a much longer journey than others. The stages as described all seem spot on.
I can accept that all questions can't be answered, and maybe shouldn't be answered. I will keep one question within me, for at least awhile longer - not that I will ever expect an answer, but it is there nagging all the same.
That nagging eventually gets less and less Dianamo.
Much like everything else......I assume.
Time wounds all heels. : )
This resonates with me as well...
You realize the first two fundamental truths - 1) You're not perfect, and 2) You can't control what another person chooses to do.
Okay, so here's another question... Are there core lessons that need to be learned by the LBS that is common to all of us? I understand that there will be different lessons depending on our individuality and families of origin, but are there fundamentals?
Lessons I have learned (or am in the process of learning):
~ That I can only control 3 things in life: My thoughts, My actions, My words
~ That others are responsible for their own choices and life paths. I may impact them by my choices, but I should not own or take on theirs as my own (if that makes any sense LOL)
~ That a relationship is not a merging of two people to completion, but two individuals intertwining *at points* to complement each other's life paths
~ That Boundaries are my protection for the inner me (the real me)
~ That when I react to something someone does or says it is a reflection of my ego reacting, not my inner self which knows ME and what is true and that I need to give the inner self time to communicate that to me
~ That happiness and security comes from within and is not dependant on my marital status or companion
~ That where I fear is usually the universe's pointer to something I need to work on in myself
~ That there is someone/thing higher than myself who communicates to (and guides me) through my inner self, if I allow myself to get quiet and still enough to listen
~ That to change a way someone is treating me if it is unacceptable, I must first change myself and my way of interacting with them
~ That if something I'm doing feels uncomfortable at the moment, it just may be a sign that I'm doing something right; comfortable = back in a rut
~ That feelings are transient and not fatal; it's the way you deal with them that matters
~ That what you need is available to you, when you truly need it, and if it seems absent you have to ask for it. If it doesn't appear, it means you have more work to do in order to have it come to you, or it may actually be a "want" not a need. (not sure if that makes sense)
That's a GREAT list, DiamondGirl!
I think a lot of the women LBS here in particular find they've been too controlling, and need to reflect on why they've felt that need, and how/what to let go--this includes how we treated our children and many other areas of our lives.
As you say, family of origin issues need to be explored; I needed to learn when I was reacting to something in my marriage/current life because a FOO insecurity/pattern was being triggered. Once I could recognize this, it stopped triggering me as much. Interestingly, my formerly-MLC H still hasn't entirely dealt with this, and sometimes gets over-reactive when people are angry because his mother would become violent when she was angry. In fact, most things on this list need to be learned by the MLCer as well--I guess learning these lessons is a part of truly "growing up."
DG-
That is it.....the answers are fundamental, but we just forget them.
You don't realize how much you just made my day!
Or in my case.. I never learned them to begin with...
Found this on another website and I will post it here.
In detachment lies the wisdom of uncertainty . . . in the wisdom of uncertainty lies the freedom from our past, from the known, which is the prison of past conditioning. And in our willingness to step into the unknown, the field of all possibilities, we surrender ourselves to the creative mind that orchestrates the dance of the universe.
The Law of Detachment
I will put the Law of Detachment into effect by making a commitment to take the following steps:
1. Today I will commit myself to detachment. I will allow myself and those around me the freedom to be as they are. I will not rigidly impose my idea of how things should be. I will not force solutions on problems, thereby creating new problems. I will participate in everything with detached involvement.
2. Today I will factor in uncertainty as an essential ingredient of my experience. In my willingness to accept uncertainty, solutions will spontaneously emerge out of the problem, out of the confusion, order and chaos. The more uncertain things seem to be, the more secure I will feel, because uncertainty is my path to freedom. Through the wisdom of uncertainty, I will find my security.
3. I will step into the field of all possibilities and anticipate the excitement that can occur when I remain open to an infinity of choices. When I step into the field of all possibilities, I will experience all the fun, adventure, magic and mystery of life.
http://www.chopra.com/articles/category/law-of-the-day/
...and to add to this list is the reassurance that you will NOT lose the love you have for your spouse when you reach total detachment.
Many times the fear of the LBS is such that if they leave the MLC'er alone, detaching from their drama, the love will disappear.
I promise, based on my own experience, that it does NOT kill the love; in fact, you must love them enough to let them go this way......detachment is necessary for your mental health.
As long as you cling to the MLC'er's drama, you'll suffer and your PMA will go down the tubes, leaving you desperate, needy, and quite possibly suicidal. The love you hold for your MLC'er will be harder to find within you, than it will be if you'll detach lovingly from the drama/antics of the MLC'er; recognizing the fact that you cannot fix them..they MUST fix themselves.
It all goes back to learning who has control...no one can control anything but themselves; the rest must be left in the hands of God.
Found this on another website and I will post it here.
This is a quote from
Codependent No More that I liked so much, I pasted a reminder on my monitor at work:
A good rule of thumb is: You need to detach most when it seems the least likely or possible thing to do.
I made up a layout of card-sized reminders as a PDF:
http://tinyurl.com/ykhgrt9
These are great, thank you!!
Not sure if my XW was in an MLC, more than likely (by her own admission to her sister) FOO/abuse issues finally surfaced after abusive father's death about 5 months before the WAW Bomb.
In any event, out of all the reading I've done this past year and a half, the book that spoke to me, resonated with me and comforted me the most as an LBH is Susan Anderson's The Journey From Abandonment To Healing. Susan Anderson has been working with abandoned spouses for 25 years, has identified slightly different stages and considers the LBS/Abandoned experience akin to a form of PTSD.
I highly recommend this book for all LBSs. It is helping me tremendously and is helping me in particular with one of the stages that I became stuck in, mired in, and couldn't move on, or go forward in my grief and healing.
I want to second the book recommendation from Gardener. It documents the experience of the LBS in a very detailed way, including the basis for all of the physical symptoms that are so disturbing in the initial "shattering" stage. The book focuses on healing and provides a framework for getting out of victim mode for the LBS.
I have enjoyed this thread very much and resonate with much that has been written about the stages.
That book just arrived in my mailbox yesterday. And now I see posts about it again.. LOL I'm taking it that the universe is pointing it as the next to read on my list...
For people who want a taste of what is available in Anderson's book, here's a blog post talking about two of the self-help techniques:
http://sserenity.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/abandonment-wound-healing-some-of-andersons-techniques/(No relation to our Serenity13...)
Rather than me copying it out of the book I see it is already listed on this page.
Here is the link for the outer child inventory.
You have to click on the bottom of the page on outer child inventory"
http://www.abandonmentrecovery.com/mem.cyber.frame.htmlAccording to Anderson we all have an inner child and outer child conflict. (Sounds familiar to this MLC board)
By identifying our outer child traits we can help to overcome the outer child and become adults.
If I have any of this wrong anyone else who has read the book feel free to correct me.
I am bumping this thread up for those newbies that haven't read it. It is still getting some traffic but we can still add 25 or so more posts to get to 100. So if anyone else would like to add some more pearls of wisdom, feel free.
hello all,
a big revelation for me during the last 7 months has been just how very kind people are - friends, strangers, cyber posters on forum!!
I have been gogsmacked at how kind and patient people have been with me - I have learned to accept their kindness too for what it is - and in the process I have learned to be kind to strangers back.
I think I must have had walls up around me when my husband left but they came crashing down when I was hit by that freight train. I have chosen to not rebuild most of the walls I had around me and let strangers into my life and (gulp) trust them with my tears and laughter and hopes and feelings.
From the lady who held my hand and gave me a hanky whilst I sobbed my heart out one afternoon in the local park to my fab friend who did my hair and make up for a special night out last Saturday - they are the unsung hero's of my journey and I am grateful to every single one of them because they were in my life at juts th right time for a reason.
lalxx
I'm bumping this, and asking the moderators for a sticky. It focuses on helping the LBSs who come here, rather than on the MLCers who sent them here. If DBing is about the LBSs moving forward, this is a must read.
Validation - Since this thread is for the LBS, I thought that another tool that we need to use is to validate.
Their has been much confusion about this by some of the newbie on this forum.
The following thread is from MWD solution journals.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=284040&page=1I was wondering if anyone else would like to contribute their thoughts on validation.
OP
Thanks for posting this. It is a place I am stuck.
VALIDATING
I am horrible at it right now. I just realized how bad when I read this ^^^^^^^^^.
Wow.
I view validation as the verbalization of water rolling off of a ducks back.
In most cases the LBSer lets the MLCer vent without engaging the venting personally.
I said most cases.
It is up to the LBSer to determine if there is a grain of truth in the ranting and venting. Because...there often is.
<~~will return after she finishes throwing up
Gak.
I have a hard time separating *validating* from *agreeing*. Not that I've had very much interaction with him the past few days--but when I have...it's not been good.
Part of my problem is that *I feel*, IMHO--he does the same thing. "I understand" morphs into "I understand because you are right." and suddenly I'm shouldering all of the blame once again.
Maybe it's just different because he is still so angry. Will it be different later on?
I liked the Burger & fries analogy. I'll keep that in mind the next time I actually have an interaction with him.
Will it be different later on?
It will be different when one chooses for it to be different.
When will one make better choices ?
AFTER the bulk of the work, and one finds out who THEY are.
Validating does become an art form....
The more you learn, and practice....The better you will be at it...
Seek to understand...then you will be understood.
Shel, I'm sorry, and I understand how this must be hard for you. I'm certain you will get it though. You are a very wise woman.
I read part of a book that I'm going to have to find and buy that talked about this kind of thing as well as how to know when the other person you are talking to feels unsafe etc...
It's called "Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When the Stakes are high"
http://www.amazon.ca/Crucial-Conversations-Tools-Talking-Stakes/dp/0071401946Here is a pdf of the highlights of the book someone posted online:
http://www.peace.ca/crucialconversations.pdfAnd the official website (I haven't checked it out yet):
http://www.crucialconversations.comHope it helps..
It is up to the LBSer to determine if there is a grain of truth in the ranting and venting. Because...there often is.
Personally, this is the benefit of validating....allowing the MLCer to realize that you are listening and more importantly to help identify some of the truths about the R that the MLC spews. IMO - quite often there is a fair amount of truth in what the MLCer will say - the LBSer must be open and honest enough with themselves to hear, feel it, process it and CHANGE it.
Eric
I agree.
Validating can be hard, but it helps me to connect with H without taking on responsibility for how he's feeling or acting--detached sympathy, I guess you could call it. This is important for me because I used to be really good at solving all of his problems instead of letting him figure them out for himself.
DG, thanks for that book title--I put it on hold at the library, along with "Crucial Confrontations."
I just posted this on shelbel's thread and thought I'd add it here as it pretty much sums up part of my journey...
IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.
You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"
In the beginning we want answers.
Why did this happen?
How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?
And the BIG ONE...
What is it about ME that made them leave?
IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...
It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.
Then you start to look inside....
Then you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...
You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...
It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.
It is about YOU
In the beginning we want answers.
Yep - then we realize a few things. Some of the answers are in US.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
So true...so true.....I can still recall the early days of looking and searching for any small sign of change. Then....
you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
Great post my friend..
In the beginning we want answers.
Yep - then we realize a few things. Some of the answers are in US.
Later you realize many of the questions you wanted answers for aren't even important anymore.
How are you Jack? Hope things are going well up in the Northland.
That last response is great. It is weird, but the questions and answers really don't matter anymore..Just seizing the day:)
I am great Lost...really great.
How are you and yours?
Tell you what, you update and I'll update. : )
Actually pretty damn good overall. There are some low points focused more on things we can't control that almost everyone is facing at the moment. The truth is though...those things will to pass.
We have a short family vacation planned (first time in 3+ years) and the kids are almost done school. The wife and I continue to move forward redefining ourselves while meeting up daily for exercise, stretching, and suntanning (yes we do live together...that is just our one on one time...LOL).
F-ing A!
Ditto on the strains. Unable to control.
W trusts my opinion in her job enough to ask advice for problems she faces...which is basically new. I still ask, if I am supposed to listen or offer advice right at the get go though. : )
She is a bit overwhelmed at work so she is abck on her AD to clam her...poor thing I do no thave the heart to tell her that it is less effective if she only takes them occasionally when things get hard...I figure the placebo effect in her head is good enough.
Going on small vacation ourselves this summer, fishing type, cabin.
This summer we start the porcess of finding a house, done with apartments and we are financially solvent again finally after our seperation a few years back.
Boys are doing great. Normal concerns about teenagers for my oldest and attitude, but part of being healthier is being bigger...not fatter than him so the intimidation is getting back up there. : )
We try and make time for each other, and have systmes in place to make sure we talk and communicate and make time for each other.
The following link is from M GO BLUE one of Snodderly's favorite posters. This thread is one of the original threads for the "Recipe For Success; Ingredients needed In Dealing With Spouses MLC"
We have seen this before in the resources but this is an earlier version of the recipe. This is from the original(or closer to it). I am reading M GO BLUE entire thread now and wanted to share it with anyone else that would like to spend the time reading it.
It seems that it would fit in with the "Stages of the LBS"
Here is the link:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=60779&page=1
M GO BLUE what a wonderful poster. I am continuing to read his threads: This one is on detachment and I will share it with everyone.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...61399#Post61399
I was involved yesterday with a chat with a bunch of people from this board and we had a guest appearance.
(LOL, not really)
Anyways I copied some pertintent questions that really apply to the LBS.
So if the author wants to take credit she/he is more than welcome.
I did edit a few bad words out of these to protect us from the author's moderators
I thought they were particularly good questions.
We all need to ask outselves.
Anyways I want to thank those participants in the chat.
I had a good time.
What was your role in this ? The break down of the marriage?
[13:34] michelle weiner-davis: How did you play a part in that ?
[13:34] michelle weiner-davis: What do you accept as your shortcomings ?
[13:34] michelle weiner-davis: What is MLC fluff ?
[13:34] michelle weiner-davis: What "stung"
[13:35] michelle weiner-davis: How do you envision your future?
[13:35] michelle weiner-davis: Are you willing to sell yourself just to have your marriage back ?
[13:35] michelle weiner-davis: What are YOU worth as a person?
[13:36] michelle weiner-davis: Can your soul be replaced if you give it away for a relationship ?
[13:36] michelle weiner-davis: (persons name)....who are YOU ?
[13:36] michelle weiner-davis: Don't give me Father, Husband, and all of that stuff either
[13:37] michelle weiner-davis: YOU !! ????
[13:37] michelle weiner-davis: How can you be anything for anybody if you don;t know you?
[13:38] michelle weiner-davis: What values do YOU own, if you sacrifice them ?
[13:38] michelle weiner-davis: When you can answer all of those....then you will know where your line in the sand is....
michelle weiner-davis: What are your limits ?
[14:12] michelle weiner-davis: What is your tolerance ?
[14:12] michelle weiner-davis: What defines you ?
[14:12] michelle weiner-davis: What are your fears?
[14:12] michelle weiner-davis: What are your strengths?
Bumping ^^^^^
It seems there is a lot questions about standing and when to leave that fit into this thread.
Looking at the stages in the first post on this thread it would seem this falls into the
TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION
Stage.
Anyone care to elaborate on this?
I can cut and paste here from my own thread but I wanted to start a general discussion to move us in that direction.
Thank you for this HB.
I hope the LBS realizes that many of the 'why' questions they absolutely think they have to have an answer too...they really do not. Everyone dies with unanswered questions, but that doesn't prevent us from living. Why should these. In many cases the MLC answers are NOT good enough for the LBS anyway so they keep digging and damage any repairs that have been made.
Stop asking.
As for not working on yourself?
That is just sad. : )
[/quote]
i guess this is true I keep trying to wrap my head around it - I guess I need to stop --
Very tough to not give up !!! But every time I think I should I come here and get some hope - thanks to all
I am 5 months in from BD for me and I am still a mess. For me it was fear, pure and simple that got me and woke me up. Then that fear moved me to do the normal begging, etc. I came here and found hope, caring, and direction. I know I am the main reason for my W leaving, so I also feel guilt and regret. I have yet to accept that DB is what is right, as I have yet to do it. I know it is what will give me my best chance, but just not there. It [censored] because I am losing time every day I dont change. It is a fight between my logic and emotions and emotions are winning. I think that for me the next stage is control, to fully understand that I have zero control over anyone other than myself. This has to be where I am stuck at, that I still feel that I can control the situation.
So for me, so far, my stages are fear with guilt, then understanding why, next is to release my (illusion) of control. Open my arms and mind and say I give up my hold, I am only me and that is all there is.
It would be so much easier to be a squirrel...
I like this switch in the board. Instead of focusing on dealing with our spouses...instead we are focusing on the changes within ourselves. Very deep..
My thoughts on the LBS stages;
Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?
Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!
Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.
Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.
Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.
Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.
Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.
Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.
Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.
Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.
Just my $0.02
This is just wow...
I am still at Bargaining. So I want to say someone kick me in the A$$, but that is what I do, I need someone else to tell me it is OK, that I have to do this or that. I need to take my own a$$ and move it.
This makes me ill and think at the same time, Thank you LFW
I agree. Every time I feel a reach a new acceptance, I can get bumped back a bit and start over. I can be accepting of the reality at 9am but dying from it by noon. I think it helps to acknowledge that version of your M is over. I let go of control and responsibility and focus on me. We both have to be willing to change.
hi .
I'm bumping this because its so important for the LBS to understand what we are going through. MLCr's have their journey... but so do we. We need to understand it so we can move forward on our own path.
I wish you all a good read from Page 1 on.
Hopoefully we can get someone to activate the broken links.
Irish
^^^^bumping
MWD's questions are thought-provoking and worth serious consideration, especially if we are to have a new marriage with old spouse ...
Interesting thoughts for sure. I'm trying to see where I am at in this journey myself.
It seems looking back that it's been 3 seperate journey's from the first waw 15 years ago, to the 2nd 2.5 years ago to the latest 6 months ago, and yet they all seem to roll into one.
I'm in the same boat, I've had multiple situations as well and i am trying to learn from it and continue on. I must admit, i'm hopeful for my WAW to come back, but in the end its what i learn from it and how i continue that is the thing that will make me grow with or without her.
I wanted her to have to need me, while I am just now realizing she doesn't and shouldn't for her mental health. I am struggling some with that fact.
I also echoed this sentiment. In my case my WAW wanted what i thought were unreasonable things. I took her desires in, but my expected timeframe was not what her timeframe is and thus off she went presumably to seek her individual desires. I kept thinking that she'd fail or that she'd see that the move out didn't change her problems (i still think the latter on some of her stated problems) and then come back, but in the end, I decided to keep pushing my agenda forward and then perhaps we will be in the same place down the path even if its a separate path from now to then.
Either way, i see myself going in and out of these phases in no particular order.
Wow I love this!!!! Very insightful and as if you were reading my mind about the changes that are happening.