New Thread...and a question. - DivorceBusting.com

I have a question, and I know MY answer to it, but I was wondering if any of you fine folks would mind sharing your reason/answer.

Not to be answered with: I dunno. If you don't know...then sit back, if you think you know, go ahead. And by the way...I only think I know.

Question:
Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

Theories?

I"ll take a shot

Quote:

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

I would give two reasons for this. One-The time involved in dealing with a MLC is so long. Being non-confrontational is a better option for dealing with the spew, venom and all around nastiness. Two-The affairs in MLC are more than likely going to run their course. Using a more aggressive approach to confront these affair is more likely to prolong the time in the tunnel and increase the length of time in MLC. All these reasons leave the LBS looking like a doormat.

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

This is to protect the LBS. Confronting the MLC'er is like torturing a lion. You are liable to get destroyed in the process. The dark/dim lets the MLC'er have space to deal with their own problems. They need to stay in the tunnel by themselves with no outside influences. That is the only way they can heal in order to progress out of the tunnel.

OK. I'll listen to some other theories.

I know you have stated that if your W were to repeat, that is it for you. Great boundary, and since your W knows, it is a deterrent of sorts.

Did you consider what you did during the MLC to save your marriage as being a doormat?

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

I think people fail to fully understand or accept what it is they're dealing with. I'm sure ego plays a roll at times too.

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

You have a depressed, irrational person with the emotions of a child who is also suffering from a MASSIVE amount of denial. They honestly (in their warped mind) believe that the LBS is the cause of their misery. You tend to hand that justification over to them the more they can associate you with any type of conflict.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Question:
Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

The time it takes for the MLCer to move or travel their journey alone is much longer than most people realize. While on their journey that leave a wake of carnage and destruction a mile wide and the victims are the one's closest to the MLCer, friends, family, and of course the spouse. To lovingly standby your spouse while they repeatedly hurt you would make you look like a doormat in others eyes, Friends, Family, and even 13 year old daughters.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Question:
Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

As the LBS you would only push them away and validate their feelings towards you by confrontation. As far as someone suggesting to go dark or dim, that would depend on the sitch and some of the circumstances surrounding the sitch. But I assume as an initial response to go dark or dim would give the MLCer more of what they think they want which is to get away from the spouse who is the major preceived cause of their pain.

Does this count as a quiz or a test?

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

I found that confronting the MLCer made me take on the role of the 'parent', the very thing they are rebelling against. The more parentlike I was the more he wanted to get away from me.

I think that there is a fine line between self-preservation and being a doormat.

I know that, for myself, I see a lot of LBSs whose spouses are in MLC BEING a doormat.

what OP said about torturing a lion is true, however, not torturing the lion doesn't mean you don't have any boundaries against the lion.

you don't go out of your way to torture it but if it crosses your boundary you need to let it know that THAT isn't OK.

for instance,
being a doormat scenerio: LBS keeps allowing S to carry on affair with OW/OM in their home with no regard for LBS
boundaries scenerio: Boundary is stated (I understand that you are unsure of how you feel. Respectfully I need to let you know that carrying on an affair with soandso in our house in unacceptable) and then enforced.

Going dark or dim is to distnace yourself from the insanity

if you were to constantly confront the MLCer who doesn't know why they are doing what they are doing or says they know why but the reason changes faster than the seconds can tick...you would make yourself crazy

Good questions!

The LBS may be *considered* to be a doormat to outsiders who can't see that the MLCer is actually in agonizing pain. They don't understand how the MLCer's history brought him/her to this crisis, they don't know the entire story of the M (they tend to blame only the MLCer for issues that in fact both partners contributed to), and they read into the situation their own emotions ("if my spouse cheated, I'd kick him/her out so fast...")--which have never been tested. In other words, they lack the compassion, understanding--and love--which allow the LBS to deviate from the popular norm.

Why go dim instead of confronting? The MLCer is basically a teenager on steroids. If you argue with your teen, he becomes more opposititional, angry and determined--and it's all your fault! However, if you back off, he's got to sort his mess out on his own, which becomes a much-needed life skill. The MLCer missed this lesson the first time round, and nobody else can do the homework for him.

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

Because in the mind of the MLCer the LBS is the problem. Much of what we are dealing with here is cognitive dissonance. Coming out of the angry phase the MLCer is looking for a reason why they are feeling the way they are. There is a gap between what they think is the correct action and what they actually feel. What the MLCer is going through is an internal struggle between who they think they are and the actions that they are taking. After all a good person does not leave his/her family for no apparent reason.

In order to compensate for this dissonance they deploy a great deal of rationalization. I can't be happy because I don't love my spouse. If I don't love my spouse their must be a reason. Most spouses aren't perfect so bam, you have a reason. Now MLCer is free to do whatever they want because LBS is...

The reason there needs to be a health separation is the actions of the LBS will always been seen through the filter of the reason for the MLCers actions. If the LBS was perceived as being controlling any action taken by the LBS would be seen as a method of control.

That's my theory.

Well just had lunch with a few to many beers...with the wife none the less. In a good manner I will try to expand on your deep reflective questions;

Quote:

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

Lack of perception....people only see what they want without wanting to understand. I feel rather confident in stating that a doormat doesn't know that it is a doormat....but an MLC LBS goes through actions knowingly. So the LBS is knowingly accepting the path they choose unlike the doormat that doesn't realize it is a doormat.

"Humans will never perceive reality....it is impossible....because it is bent by their perception"

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

Basic Physics---"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"...That Newton guy was pretty smart....and when it comes down to it...everything goes by the laws of physics.

Originally Posted By: Lostforwords

Lack of perception....people only see what they want without wanting to understand. I feel rather confident in stating that a doormat doesn't know that it is a doormat....but an MLC LBS goes through actions knowingly. So the LBS is knowingly accepting the path they choose unlike the doormat that doesn't realize it is a doormat.

"Humans will never perceive reality....it is impossible....because it is bent by their perception"

You should drink and post more often. This is a very insightful observation.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

I believe it is all perception. In an aggressive society, many people live believing that if you do not "stand up for yourself" that you are a doormat. However, in choosing to live your own life, be responsible for your own actions, exhibiting self control instead of going off half cocked because of some injustice or wallowing in a pit of self pity, while your MLCer lives life, you ARE standing up for yourself.

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

This is actually, IMO, a form of self protection as well as a boundary. It is not putting yourself in a position to have all sorts of crazy, cruel, unnecessary words thrown at you, if you can avoid it. And it is stating that that is not behavior that you will tolerate from your MLCer. If they wish to talk like adults, then the door is still open for that to happen.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Question:
Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

Wow, there are some really good answers here, all of which are valid.....

So I guess my challenge would be to try to sum up my answer in ten words or less.....

I think I can state mine in......One.

PRIDE.....

Pride....hmmm...

Pride is the great equalizer, and paralyzes most people into making decisions that they ordinarily would not make...

Pride is what stands in the way of most possible reconciliations.....

There is a reason that it is one of the Seven Deadly Sins....

Just my opinion, there is no clear concrete answer that "one size fits all" here.

Just as each MLC is individual....so are our reasons for each and every action....

Self-sacrifice is not a popular concept in our world. Stories of faithfulness in the face of rejection or even just lack of something in return make the news because it's so rare these days.

Standing for a marriage that is in distress, particularly when one spouse seems to have wigged out is looked down upon by many as being enabling or being that doormat. Few recognize the honor in remaining true to your vows until the bitter end. Few have the stomach to truly endure the "worse" in "for better or worse."

If MLC is truly a psychological trauma born of hidden and unresolved wounds...if it truly is a crazy journey of the soul that must be navigated...then there is at least a part of the ridiculous behavior that is simply a part of their wicked journey. There is incredible inner anguish, both from pain and from emptiness. This anguish thrusts the MLC'er forward to remove things that have potentially brought the pain, and to grasp for things that will soothe the pain.

In that light, a left behind spouse honors their marriage and their spouse by remaining their rock - that lighthouse that can lead the other home one day.

But damned if you don't go through some crap along the way.

Most people just aren't in to that kind of crap.

Bill

In 40 minutes I am out of here.

Gone until Next Friday.

I hope you all have a wonderful week. Please continue to post, some damn good insights and reasons.

The reason for the question(s) is there are alot of new people from different parts of the boards. And I was hoping and thankful for the wise posts as to the differences.

Please let it continue.

For the record; I will be here:

http://www.acabinonthecliff.com/lodging.html

With my wife.

No kids.

: )

Jack the cabin looks great. Enjoy your weekend.

This was a great idea for a thread.

That looks like a great place to relax!

It is good to get out of the big city to the quaint village.

Have fun.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

For the record; I will be here:

http://www.acabinonthecliff.com/lodging.html

BAD idea Bro...

NOT the weekend at the cabin, but advertising it....????

There are 586,412 square miles in Alaska that AmyC would have to search.....

NOW....she knows exactly where you are.....

; )

Thank you for this thread. I feel more and more sure that H is in a MLC, and what I'm reading here reinforces my confidence in the path that I'm on. I think I need to spend more reading reading here in MLC land

Xcellent responses, and I can relate to most all of them being correct.
Great ? Jack3beans!

Hi Jack,

Quote:

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

In a NORMAL situation, the one who's out to lunch knows very well what he/she is doing, and the one who is on the receiving end of their abuse, is too afraid to stand up and say "That's enough".
In a NORMAL situation, the backing down, waiting around, etc, WOULD be something to view as doormat behavior on the part of the person who really wants their marriage to come back together, when, really it's better to confront to blow it all out in the open in the hopes that the conflict would be resolved. Yet, the SAME lessons are learned as in MLC, if the LBS is willing to learn after the abuser/cheater has left or turned back to the marriage....strange thought, isn't it?

BUT MLC is NOT a normal situation.

You're looking at possibly one of two things or both running tandem;
Hormonal changes that come from nature
Emotional changes that come from life

When someone says you're being a doormat if you have a spouse in MLC, they are clearly wrong; to push a confrontation too soon could mean the marriage would end without answering all the "What if" questions, at least on the side of the SANE spouse. And the growing of both people could be halted, along with both people being scarred, possibly for the rest of their lives, as each one never learns what this opportunity puts before them.
Yet, people who really don't understand, won't see this; most are only concerned with having things back "the way they were before."
And that may not happen.
Many people don't understand what MLC entails, and therefore it is easy to come down on someone trying to keep their marriage together.
And honestly, Jack; many people understand the concept of attempting to keep what you have, as you can do much worse, and so they try to pull what's left of their marriage back together, utilizing this "doormat" behavior for a period of time...like I said; while some people would call it "doormat" behavior, it is those that don't understand that say that.

Each person is different and what works for one will NOT work for another;
For example, this might happen to one couple, and the woman show such a great love for her husband regardless of how he treats her that she draws him back to her; he does as he is supposed to in the way of settling his issues, etc, makes the necessary changes, and they start over again from the ashes of the old marriage into a new, stronger marriage.
Was SHE a doormat because she did that? No, she utilized what she had and it worked.

But it might not work on someone else like that..people are TOO complicated. What this little story I outlined doesn't say or explain is how love works; it's a choice, not a feeling and it's a letting go, and above all, Love, at times..must be tough...so it doesn't explain HOW she used LOVE to win him back; it just simply says she does...this was something I read a long time ago.

On the other hand, there are certain times in the journey, that stronger action needs to be taken in order to keep the MLC'er from putting into place cycling behaviors, that forever go around and around.
The "doormat" behaviors must be exchanged for more of the confrontation sort; and that only comes when the time is right in this self same journey.

When trying to come out, the MLC'er tests the waters, much like a child does their parents at puberty. And just like the child must learn to respect their parents, the MLC'er must learn what is acceptable and not acceptable to their spouse in the way of behavior. And respect is gained or lost during this critical time.
Some also try to go back to a behavior that is emotionally abusive, as they are coming back together, and that just cannot be.
This is part of the learning that's done during the time in and coming out of the tunnel.

This is also when boundaries must be set and kept firmly. But only the LBS knows when that time is...no one can even come close to knowing when; that's when intuition comes into play at the darkest hour.

It is also a time I spoke of that entails being willing to lose all in order to possibly gain something better within the relationship/marriage.

I hope this helps..now to the next question:

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

Again, to confront too soon will cause the MLC'er to run like the dickens the other direction, and repeated confrontations will literally push them out the door.
I almost did that, Jack, and I'm speaking from experience.
Going dark, allows not only the MLC'er the time and space needed to face their issues, and work forward, but it also allows the LBS the necessary break they need to keep walking their own journey..it also takes the pressure off BOTH parties.

But, a strange thing happens if the connection is still there, although faint..it also causes the MLC'er to "miss" what they had, and history can be a strong pull.
Coupled with the LBS going on with their life AS IF and staying dark, it really can cause the MLC'er to begin to work their way back, and can cause them to awaken to the possibility they can lose their spouse...the changes the LBS goes through are NOT unnoticed by the MLC'er.

Somewhere, in that black hole, are feelings long buried; and the pulling away of a spouse that's gone dark, can be enough to cause the MLC'er to start their journey back to their spouse, although it is a long and painful journey for them.

A time of confrontation will come later on when the connection restrengthens itself, and the MLC'er is ready to face the damage they have caused not only to the marriage and spouse, but to themselves as well.

I hope this helps you, too.

I cannot say I have all the answers, but I'm throwing in my two cents; as I think there are no clear cut answers for handling this Monster they call MLC.

Have a good one, Jack.

Hi HB-Thank you for posting again-your insights are really helpful in putting things in context and providing perspective!

My H has been through all the stages of MLC(Up to acceptance) and back again. Dishes out alot of anger towards me and this hasn't dissipated. Being Dim(we have kids) has helped me but seems to have no effect on H. We are in the process of divorce and my hopes of salvaging this marriage are very, very slim. I still love my H, but am much more detached..don't really like the person/father he is right now.

I wonder what your thoughts/experience are about the effects of divorce on the MLCer. I know each person is unique, but I wonder if there ever seemed to be any kind of "MLC" response or script that goes with divorce?

K- There doesn't appear to be a script, examples;

Friend-On D-day...they were missing one piece of paper. Judge tells them to reschedule and they go out into the hall. Her husband breakdowns in tears right there...complete breakdown. The are about 8 months into piecing. The finality of divorce was his rock bottom.

Another case-Wife just goes right through divorce and never blinks an eye...eventually marries OP

Third one-Most common one from my readings...Spouses rush to divorce...LBS remarries. WAS starts to come out of the fog 3-5 years later and realizes what has happened. Sometimes even tracking down LBS to apologize

There is no definitive script....other than working on yourself.

HB, your participation in this forum is a gift to us...thank you so much

I wonder if you (or anyone else) can comment on how having young children affects the WAS/MLC and LBS dynamics?

Like many parents on this forum, I haven't gone dark or even dim because I am trying to keep things as "normal" as possible for our young children. That means H seeing them once or twice daily, H frequently being with them in our family home, continuing the bedtime ritual that we both participate in most days, me making brief, pleasant small talk with H so that our children see friendly interactions, etc. H and I believe that these things are helping the children to cope with the situation.

Hi flowmom,

Quote:

HB, your participation in this forum is a gift to us...thank you so much

I wonder if you (or anyone else) can comment on how having young children affects the WAS/MLC and LBS dynamics?

Like many parents on this forum, I haven't gone dark or even dim because I am trying to keep things as "normal" as possible for our young children. That means H seeing them once or twice daily, H frequently being with them in our family home, continuing the bedtime ritual that we both participate in most days, me making brief, pleasant small talk with H so that our children see friendly interactions, etc. H and I believe that these things are helping the children to cope with the situation.

Since I was unsure where you had a thread, I chose to answer your question here...hopefully Jack won't string me up by my hamstrings for hi-jacking his thread, temporarily, LOL!!

Sweetie, you're much welcome, and I'm glad to be here for as long as I can be here. I've done much reading; and there is so much pain here...understandable considering the circumstances...my heart goes out to each and every one of you who is suffering with this. I have gone back and done some reading of the archives, and that seems to be another time and place(and it was); and I was surprised to find I'm posting the SAME kind of advice and insight I did then..nothing changed..not that it's supposed to in that regard, but the only other wisdom I'd gained was out of my own journey through MLC, and the ending, thereof.

It expanded what I contained within my arsenal to help others.

I'd been deathly afraid that I wouldn't be able to help like I once did, but once I got started, memories started coming back of a time long before, and I think I'm all right now.

Ok; you're asking about young children and MLC...well, I didn't have a young child at home when my husband went through; our son was 15 or thereabouts..but I can tell you this:

What I have seen was the weirdest thing I ever saw; I'd learned about becoming "opposite" of what the MLC spouse was before the crisis...and the fact that he is still willing to interact with the children; tells me the connection with them is not closed.

How was he with the children BEFORE MLC?

He may be closed to YOU, but NOT them...and that is always a good thing. Many MLC husbands ignore and mistreat their children during that time..causing a great deal of hurt, distress and great damage because of the MLC'er's selfishness.

My husband ignored me totally, but tried his best to connect with our son; and couldn't understand why son didn't want anything to do with him, which provoked pursuit on my husband's part.

If I hadn't intervened with my son, and kept talking to him about the importance of forming a relationship with his dad; no relationship between the two would be in existence today.
My husband NEVER knew I did that to help him; and I never told him.

Yours is the second situation I've seen in the present time that it may be because of the connection with the children; you two may make it through intact; coming back together into a new marriage given time and his coming through the tunnel.

I could be wrong on both counts.

On the other hand; your husband still has love in his heart for the children or you couldn't BRIBE or FORCE him to do what he's doing to keep things normal for the children; I'm being that blunt, as their selfishness normally knows NO bounds when it comes to what THEY want and what they THINK THEY need.
OR, and I have to ask this question...are you making him do this for the kids' sake? And it really doesn't matter either way..the MLC'er has to WANT to do something or they just won't do it.

The path the MLC'er is on, is, of course a solitary path, one, where they will do what they think they have to do when they have to do it.
And they will run over anyone who stands in their way, even their own small(or big) children.

How are the children coping?

There are times I get so frustrated when I'm reading, especially about the children; who didn't ask to come into this world, and certainly didn't ask for the breaking of the family to happen.

I know children are resilient, but still, it's so not fair to them.

I realize that I haven't written very much; but I recognize that I don't have the necessary experience with the small children being involved in this type of dynamic.

I hope that what I have penned will help you with this.

Always feel free to ask more questions..questions are always good; you can't get answers if you don't ask them.

Much love,
HB

HB, I hope it's OK to ask a question. First, I would like to thank you for posting again. Your wisdom is very much appreciated.

Why is it that the MLCer seems to be astounded that their own children would have a problem with what they've done. (My H moved in with ow 2 weeks after re meeting her.) H just can't understand why S23 hasn't talked to him since he left almost 5 months ago. H says that S23 just needs to grow up and accept the situation. H has also said that about D17 and D11.

After this first happened S26 wrote H a letter and said that he no longer respected him. They work at the same place and H came to him after reading the letter and said to S26, "I'm still your father and you will respect me."

Excuse me, who's the one that needs to grow up?

Thanks so much.

SA

Thanks so much for the reply HB

. I wasn't intending to hijack Jack's thread, but rather to ask a general question that might be helpful for others in a similar sitch.

HB, I've answered some questions that are specific to my sitch in my own thread here (my sitch is summarized in the first post) if you have time to read my replies:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1946180#Post1946180

I'll take you up on your offer to ask more questions please

. To expand on my question, I was wondering how the frequent contact and need to collaborate (when young children are involved) helps or hinders the separated MLC in progressing through the stages? And how does the LBS take care of herself without going dark/dim (because it's hard to coparent effectively while dark/dim)?

This thread is for anyone who wants to impart their wisdom, insight.

HB, you know I am...piecing right? I mean, I'll always be piecing, but the dark days are WELL behind me.

The questions weren't because I needed an answer, but for the others here, an no one as farf as I am concderned is a 'doormat'. It is a fear that many LBS fear in themselves...hence the questions to dissuade them of that stupid and false notion.

Many new peope here are coming from other boards where the tactics are VERY different, and our actions here in MLC ARE considered to be doormatish to others giving advice else where.

Flow, as a dad of 2 boys when this happened to me, when I went dark, I keep all conversations with her strictly about our boys and bills only. Anything else, any time she tried to talk about some bullsith fully crap, I said "So we are done talking then?" and said goodbye.

Before going dark, and after we had established a schedule for her seeing the boys and such. and we stuck to it afterward.

It is hard not to hope that the children will somehow bring them back to you...It likely will NOT be the reason...moreimportantly, you do NOT want them to be the reason he comes back to you. YOU want to be the reason he comes back, not you mommy skills.

Flowmom and Seeking Answers;

I have just set up a new thread for questions and answers. Post to me there. Here's the link:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1946198#Post1946198

SA, I will drag your post over to my thread and answer you there.

flow mom, I will do the same with yours.

I'm sorry, Jack...I knew this might happen sometime or another; so I'm trying to head the rest of it off before someone else gets their thread hijacked.

Welcome back, Jack.

Quote:

HB, you know I am...piecing right? I mean, I'll always be piecing, but the dark days are WELL behind me.

I knew you and your wife were out of this, was unaware you were in piecing..that explained why this was the only post I could find on you here in MLC.

You were kind enough to visit my first thread here, and so I was returning the favor.

I am still getting used to the changed format of this board.

I didn't sense you wanted answers for yourself, Jack; you've already gotten yours...you were asking a couple of general questions; and questions are always good.

I apologize if you thought that I thought that YOU wanted answers..threads such as these were set up when I was here before for anyone to post their thoughts.

Out of habit, I usually do address the one who set up the thread, no matter what they want to know..or if it is for general purpose.

Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.

Hope your enjoyed your getaway.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

It is hard not to hope that the children will somehow bring them back to you...It likely will NOT be the reason...moreimportantly, you do NOT want them to be the reason he comes back to you. YOU want to be the reason he comes back, not you mommy skills.

I totally agree, and I think the children actually muddy the issue of our M, as they have been the last 6 years, the little rascals

Jack

Thanks for your clarification on being a 'doormat'. It has been one of my biggest worries that I would become a doormat to H antics.

I now see that the position I stand on is part of the evolving journey for both me and my H and being seen by others as a doormat is not a major issue.

Jack,

Yes, thank you for this thread. I, too, worried about the doormat issue as a lot of folks view what I am doing as me being a doormat. My attitude is that it is my life and I'm trying to save my M. What you think about me is none of my business.

Originally Posted By: seeking answers

Jack,

Yes, thank you for this thread. I, too, worried about the doormat issue as a lot of folks view what I am doing as me being a doormat. My attitude is that it is my life and I'm trying to save my M. What you think about me is none of my business.

Make sure you don't take this to far. You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences. A person can only be a doormat for so long and can only tolerate so much.

Also don't use this as an excuse for not moving forward with your own life. In other words if you want to be a doormat be one in your spare time.

All,

You are only a doormat if you think you are....if you think you are strong and taking the high road for what YOU stand for....then you are just that...strong.

It is just a mind set.....are you strong or are you a doormat?

Jack,

Awesome thread -- and a great discussion.

To me, this topic always comes down to two things, that I look for first when I try to help a newbie:

1) Are THEY happy and confident with the approach they've taken? Some people have chosen "standing" for their marriage as a very definite strategy, they are strong in that stance, I find more often than not these are people of FAITH, and they're just venting now and again or looking for some other specific advice. But they are CONFIDENT that their patience in standing is part of their overall plan, and they're still okay emotionally and feeling like they can continue that for awhile.

2) Are they laying out -- and do they know how to enforce -- healthy BOUNDARIES? There's nothing "doormat-ish" if the standing spouse says "these are my three or four or five Boundaries of Personal Integrity, and I'm quite prepared to enforce them." These might be "no contacting OM/OW from inside our home," or "Please don't discuss OM/OW in front of me, as if I'm okay with all of this," or "we need to be in ongoing marriage counseling together for me to remain in this marriage," -- or whatever.

I usually jump in and shake people and exhort them -- especially men -- to "man up" when I see that they are timid, and totally unsure, and all over the map in their approach, and THEY THEMSELVES don't see it working (and nor from their posts does it look to anyone else like it is). So I challenge them, and if they are confident in what they are doing, and seem at peace with it, then I think that's fine, and certainly not "being a doormat."

Puppy

Puppy,
Glad to hear you say this, I admire your advice to people on these boards, it is wise and I only wish I had someone like you advising me in the days following the discovery of my W's A.

I think every sitch is different and the people involved can make either approach right or wrong depending on the sitch and the personallity of the WAS and/or LBS.

I agree that you should not be "all over the map" you either have the patience and strength to endure the actions of the WAS or you have the courage and strength to enforce "tough love".

Since we are in the MLC forum, I think this is especially true when dealing with the MLCer.

Thank you Jack for the posting. I was feeling like I was a doormat for my H's antics and navigated between - "I don't have to take this" to "I want to be with H". I took the advice of individuals on this board to keep family out of my business.

They say I was allowing myself to be a doormat and maybe I saw it that way until Jack's posting. But I have some very clear goals to REALLY work on myself and hopefully that will bring about change and potential reconciliation.

Thanks again for the posting.

Good Stuff!!

Thank you all for the replies and your insights.

I have one direct reply to C-Bart.

Quote:

Make sure you don't take this to far. You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences. A person can only be a doormat for so long and can only tolerate so much.

Too far is relative. And by too far, I think you mean too submissive, and too long.

What is too long? That is up to the individual. 6 months or 6 years? Come a time when everyone moves on...hopefully. But I do not think it up to anyone here to determine that for someone else.

This is something I struggle with; some people I just see "wallowing".

Now if that person was GALing and had grown, was improving themselves enjoying life...and just 'waiting'. That would be AWESOME.

Just as it AWESOME when someone decides that they have moved past trying to outwait the MLC...as long as they have grown.

Just as it is AWESOME when the MLC comes out of their hell.

What is far from awesome is seeing the LBS 'pine away', losing this time to pity, or bitterness, regardless of the MLC outcome. The repition of bad choices and living in the past.

Seeing THAT sukcs.

We are here to support all the LBSers here and their 'good' choices...'good' is also relative. I view it as personal growth and relationship knowledge.

Enough people, family and friends will impose their own warped timeline...a timeline many of them would not follow in reversed roles. We should not.

A person who comes here and 'wastes' years of thier life by becoming bitter and pitiful...yes...you know what? THEY chose to WASTE those years. THEM. Not their MLC spouse. And I have more sympathy for the MLC than that LBSer. Because the LBSer HAD A CHOICE.

Quote:

You still have to have healthy boundaries complete with consequences.

Until the MLCer starts coming around...boundaries and consequences are a tricky road. Involving children? Yes I agree whole heartedly. Absolutley, however if you are talking about:
"I forbid you from seeing the OM, or I will divorce your cheating butt!"

Well...you need to follow through with those divorce papers because they are NOT going to listen. And IF you do not follow through...then you're bark has NO bite. And you might as well throw all your credibility out the window.

Until the MLC starts showing positive and real signs of coming back...boundaries and consquences hurt you and what you think you want more than they do them. You are pushing them and presuring them to assuage your own desires regarding them in a relationship role they have shown you...they currently do not want.

Quote:

Also don't use this as an excuse for not moving forward with your own life. In other words if you want to be a doormat be one in your spare time.

Good point...with the exception of suggesting it is ok to be a doormat.

My answers, from my perspective go like this.
I have answered some in part above.

Quote:

Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?

Accepting that your spouse is having an affair? Going about YOUR life while someone is sleeping...and lets be real, sleeping is a really innocent term...with your spouse? 'Letting' your spouse be up out all night while you take care of the family and bills and house?

You must be a doormat right?

No. But this isn't normal behavior. In fact it is so abnormal it is not only hard to do...it is hard for anyone to understand.

Your goal is to outlast their MLC. Their confusion and their selfishness. You're not going to get them to stop, and if you try you usually hasten them along and further into their selfishness and tunnel. You demand from them and they run away from your demands, ignore them or decide they are better off without you controlling them.

You accept these bad behaviours with an eye on your prize, you came to Divorce Busting for a reason. It was to stop your divorce...it isn't called...say Affair Busting. So get used to the idea of getting used to bad behaviours.

Quote:

Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?

For you, to protect yourself from MANY things, many mistakes you can make, to protect yourself from them and their anger, from your resposne to their bad choices, and your bad reactions. To protect the imagine of the 'good' you in their mind when they think about you...and guess what? They do think about you. You want them to have 'good' pictures in their head when they do.

My thoughts...my answers, not better or worse than any others, just mine.

And again thank you all for your insights.

Please keep posting : )

Hello Jack....
Ur baaaaack!
How was it?
No....don't answer that.
A smiley face should be sufficient.

AND

ehhh.

I'm pieicing. Lots to learn, communication still important, and even I fall into the expectation pitfall at times.

Did you do any fishing near Seward?

No.

Apparently they have rules about when you can fish up here, and apparently they don't let you use dynamite either.

You really stayed in that cabin on the side of the mountain? No wonder you can't use dynamite.

It looked nice!!!

Bastards....

Don't they know you are Jack 3 freakin Beans ?

You are the King of Alaska man !

: ) THAT made me smile. Thanks Mach.

OP, thanks. It is ahhh nicer on the web. They now have houses on either side of it, and while that view does exist...the other 145 degrees are taken up by the commerical fishery.

BTW.....

How did Peggle go last night ?

Don't even lay it off as Mama and the little bear either....

I should be on later....

Seriously...if you see me online playing ANY crappy game for more than 20 minutes you can bet your bottom dollar that I am not playing it...or I stroked out.

Yep piercing can be sucky at times....they take so dang long to come around.
Glad you had a chance to get away though.

Is piecing any different for a MLC'er than for a WAS? Not that I am up to that part yet but doing advanced research.

Actually Jack I think you should offer college credit for "Advanced MLC". Could be a good business. LOL.

Welcome back, my friend.

We both know that relationships are hard work but WELL worth the effort.

Welcome back, Jack.

Thank you for that excellent post. You are a wise man.

Jack - If you ever do catch a 50+ pound King, it is probably not good for "piecing" to put it in the bathtub with a note asking your spouse to clean it. But, my brother did just that a few years back and he is still married.

Your post is really helpful Jack. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

For you, to protect yourself from MANY things, many mistakes you can make, to protect yourself from them and their anger, from your resposne to their bad choices, and your bad reactions. To protect the imagine of the 'good' you in their mind when they think about you...

You know, I've been "dim" for 6 weeks and I am thankful that I've been protected from all of the above. I know that I would have been dealing with all of the above had I not been following a plan so I can see that I have already truly benefited for this. I shudder to think how much worse that would have been for me.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

and guess what? They do think about you. You want them to have 'good' pictures in their head when they do.

I have trouble believing that H thinks about me except how he can cut me out of his life. But if he does think about me it helps me to think that if his eyes are open (which I don't assume) he can only see me as looking better than I have in years, calm, polite, and cooperative about the children. That doesn't give him a lot to objectively react against. He's alone with his demons and his A fantasies.

Flowmom,

Thanks for posting to me on the alt about my job situation. I really appreciate it.

Class acts both of you.

: )

Honored to know you.

At the risk of sounding mushy and sappy, I feel honoured every day to have found all of you. You have all made me see that this is an opportunity for me to reclaim *me* and I am forever thankful to you all for 2x4ing that in.

No one answered my question from the top of the page so I am going to add another part to it.

When do you start piecing?

From the top of the page.

Quote:

Is piecing any different for a MLC'er than for a WAS? Not that I am up to that part yet but doing advanced research.

OP,
Yes....
Piecing is very different.
With MLC there is so much emotional baggage, so many deep seated issues to wade through.
It can take years of piecing just to get to a good place in the marriage.
With a WAS it is much easier.
This is usually someone who has just become fed up with the marriage and although there may also be alot of emotional stuff to go through, it doesn't carry the same crap.

You start piecing when both parties want to work at making it right and are committed to that.

OP

YOU don't start piecing....but I think you know that.

For me....It has slowly progressed to that point. There has been no sit down conversation to this point. My wife basically posted that she knows that she has problems, She needs to work on those problems, that the problems weren't me or the children, and that she wants to rebuild her marriage.

I could push the issue, but what really is the point. I like were we are at currently....we are friends...partners when it comes to the finances, children, and taking care of the house...and slowly the romantic side of the relationship is coming back. So am I piecing...sure.....but I continue to work on myself, as does she, which is really the more important thing.

Remember that moving ahead is work...and if you aren't moving ahead you are stagnant and dieing. So is many things in life.

BND

Thanks kind of what I thought but was just making sure.

Ok not to be dumb then but this website has a piecing board. It seems like there are all sorts of different people on this board. Some are piecing and the spouses are still in their crisis, some are WAS and some are MLC's???

LFW,

Good point. You(is collective or we)

Quote:

My wife basically posted

On this board? FB?

LFW is your W past acceptance phase of her crisis? Or still in it?

Quote:

There has been no sit down conversation to this point.

I agree that you can't push anything. And I think I can see the point that you are at.

Quote:

I like were we are at currently....we are friends.

OP-

Depends on you....Jack and I have actually discussed that we should move over to the piecing board. Though I don't like to speak for Jack....I think we both feel more at home here. So the choice is yours?

Is there benefit from moving?...probably....but for me I like to be around people who can learn from my experiences. Of course Jack is also here and I think we are both in generally the same spot in regards to our relationships....so that is a big bonus.

OP-

She has a blog....more focused on life balance. It was on there that she posted about her mid-life crisis. I would love to post the link....but I want to protect her anonymity. I did post a little exert on Eric's page.

I would say she is in acceptance, but I really don't believe in looking at the stages. Like the Chinese student...I do what is right everyday....knowing that things will be good in the end.

LFW,

No need to post that I just didn't understand.

OP-

LOL...the wife and I are just internet junkies and I forget that sometimes. All our different websites (except this one) are linked...so she posts in one place and it ends up on all of them...so to me it is just her posting.

OP,

Sorry buddy, I DID read your question...but never got around to answering it. Sorry.

BND said it best:

Quote:

You start piecing when both parties want to work at making it right and are committed to that.

And you have no idea how hard it really is. But with great risk, comes great reward. For me it was...many things. Shedding the armor of all I had learned to protect myself. Dark, Dim Validating, avoiding R talks. Everything. Everything you learned, at least for me, had to go by the way side or become modified. Trust...allowing her to rebuild her trust. Allowing myself to trust her. Verifying that trust, which is not the same thing as not trusting her, but to ensure that your trust was well placed.

Hell...man...arguing. Finding out that it was ok to fight and the world wasn't going to fall apart. That I wasn't going to walk away or she wasn't going to slip back into MLC.

I post here, because... I think too many people go into piercing too early, their spouse came back too early or they are too eager. If the LBS is too eager to please the WAS...to forgive when forgiveness isn't sought out... I dunno. My place is here.

: ) Thanks for the nice words Lost.

J3B no need to say your sorry. I posted it on friday night. You go home for the weekend. That should be priority #1!
I was just bumping it up today because I did want someone to answer. Thanks all for great answers. I didn't mean to hijack your doormat thread but I wasn't kidding about having advanced MLC lessons. LOL

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Hell...man...arguing. Finding out that it was ok to fight and the world wasn't going to fall apart. That I wasn't going to walk away or she wasn't going to slip back into MLC.

Something I had to learn also.

POP

Godd morning Chica.....do you have any thoughts on the hair phobia the men in MLC have......any thoughts

I think we should start a thread about it....here goes

IRMAC-

The hair phobia? Please expand on that one...LOL. Of course I might not be the one to help on this since I have been pretty bald since my mid-20's and now just keep it shaved down all the time.

Jack-Question...There are two good threads going on right now that highlight the importance of keeping children out of all this as much as possible (I think you can figure out which ones I am thinking of). With the posters permissions of course...is there away to start a sticky post about the possible affects of getting the children involved? I think this takes more precedent since in MLC world we talk years instead of months and the fight to keep the children uninvolved is so much harder due to the time frame. Thoughts?

Lost,
I know the question was for Jack, but I am butting in if that is OK.
Kids do NOT need to know what their MLCparent is doing.

It is YOUR job as the sane LBS to protect your children.

Why would anyone want to burden their child with the knowledge that their mom or dad is being a total idiot?

Your children are smart enough to figure things out on their own.

More importantly, the bottom line is this....

Your child still loves your spouse regardless of what you may think of them, don't do anything to poison them.

BND-

I totally agree.....That is why I am suggesting a sticky post highlighting just that with examples of what might happen. Even if we don't get examples from here on the board, but from elsewhere....sometimes if people can see the results of examples it is more affective than just being told not to do it.

Lost,

It was the hardest thing for me to have to face my kids each day knowing that their Dad was out galavanting and having to keep my big mouth shut.

But, I also knew that as a child of Divorced parents myself, I grew up knowing all of the details of my Dad's infidelities and it caused many issues in my own relationships.

I didn't lie to my children, but I did avoid telling them the truth.

He lived 3000 miles away and with the time difference it was hard for the kids to contact him.

There were days when they would send him emails or leave him voicemails and he wouldn't reply.

I would let the kids know that their Dad had called but it was late and they were asleep. I would let them know that he loved them and would try to call again later in the week.

I hated having to do this to them BUT it would have been worse if they had known the truth about him.

Also, as my Husband did end up coming home again, could you imagine if the children had known all of the gorey details of his life in Neverland?

Blech!

BND

I think your post is exactly what LFW is saying!

Quote:

But, I also knew that as a child of Divorced parents myself, I grew up knowing all of the details of my Dad's infidelities and it caused many issues in my own relationships.

Quote:

Also, as my Husband did end up coming home again, could you imagine if the children had known all of the gorey details of his life in Neverland?

These are the point I want to make exactly....That to much involvement may have life altering repercussions. We do touch on it here and there....but just today another poster asked about it. Not that I want to bash that poster....but I think dealing with children should be the focal point of a sticky post.

My parents aren't divorced....but I have friends who's parents divorced ugly including affairs....it was sad to their interactions were their parents as adults (and other's in relationships)....just sad, but caused by overexposure to the events.

: )

I do not posses the power of the sticky.

You could start a thread all about the kids etc.....

Gah...

You want me to do something around here?

Stop pestering me devil woman!

: )

You're right.

good post to Eric J3B

Well...it might be something informative instead of chit chat stuff, video games and silly things like MLC'ers and their appearances

Thanks KS. : )

Quote:

Your child still loves your spouse regardless of what you may think of them, don't do anything to poison them.

And here I am, butting in if that is ok. LOL!! I cannot say I know everything about what to tell and what not to tell children, but this is my story; and how this turned out regarding our son and his dad.

My husband and I have one son, who is now 23; he was 13 or 14 when my husband went into the tunnel, 15 when OW was making her unwelcome appearance.
There was a time when son approached me and asked a direct
question about husband having OW; I did NOT lie to him; son said he was seeing strange things that indicated this.
Apparently, he was seeing strange numbers on call ID, and husband was literally running for the phone when it rang.
Also, he was clearing off the call ID, ESPECIALLY when OW's number was showing, and son wasn't dumb about that.
He was present when strange hairs were found in the laundry basket..and made the necessary connections that led to his questioning me.

At that same time, my husband was treating me like CRAP; and son was seeing this, also; and was VERY angry about it.

Son was smart enough to figure it all out WITHOUT me telling him...and I didn't say a word until he ASKED me, and I didn't lie.
But son was mature enough to figure out what he was hearing/seeing; though a little young(I thought) to be expected to handle what he was hearing; without an explanation..and his trying to talk me into getting a divorce was also an indication of him actually being not exactly old enough to understand why I was hanging in there, instead of throwing in the towel.

I sat him down and explained what I knew he could understand; while all the time, he was venting his anger and frustration about the whole dang situation.

I became son's outlet for his frustration/anger; our relationship was close even then....but remember husband was chasing son for a relationship, so son, was NOT mistreated at all, nor in any way..in my book, if someone was going to be mistreated, it was ME who would get it; I was an adult who could handle it; and handle it, I did.

Long story short, I encouraged son to connect with husband, never "poisioned" his mind against his dad..I reminded son that my husband was STILL his dad, regardless of how he treated me. I started teaching son to separate the behavior from the person, his dad, so his love would NOT be killed through his dad's MLC. I did NOT say negative things about my husband, although, I heard a great many negative things from son.
I listened, comforted, validated, and really, son was MORE angry about what was being said/done to ME than he was about himself.
And he had a HARD time understanding why I was continuing to stand, when, in his eyes, I really should leave because according to son, "You do NOT deserve this, Mom. You've always been here, taking care of us, and didn't do anything wrong." He was right, but I was stubborn about hanging tough with it; I'd remembered what my husband had been BEFORE the tunnel, and figured I had NOTHING to lose but time, anyway.

As long as husband didn't haul off and hit me, I KNEW I could handle the emotional abuse. My past/childhood had caught up with me, it seemed at that time.

It was NOT an easy battle; not only did I have to deal with what was happening, I was trying to balance my own feelings against the fact that I didn't want a rift between dad and son.

In my mind, if I encouraged son to turn against his dad, it would divide the household, and divided we would fall.
And I would be as much at fault for this division as my husband.
On the other hand, I had son getting more and more angry; and I was really on edge about the whole situation. And afraid a literal fight would break out between the two of them.
It never did, thank God.

Then I learned:
I could NOT make son love and respect his dad; and I also learned that the relationship between the two WAS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY.

What I learned I COULD do, was just keep talking to son, hope he was receptive, give him an outlet to vent, support him..and that was all I could do.

The rest was up to the two of them.

I fielded quite a few questions from him in the coming months, and years, and I answered them to the best of my knowledge and understanding I had at the time.
Through him, I got a bird's eye view of the teenager that comes out during some of that time; son was puzzled about his dad speaking almost identical to the way he spoke; and puzzled that his dad wanted to "hang out" with him. Dad is not someone you want to hang out with when you're 15/16 years old..but my husband wanted to do this..and I encouraged son to allow it if he wanted to.
They played video games together, went places together, did things together....and I was NOT invited, but to me, that was all right. To my son, it was really weird.

He, on a side note, was ALSO involved when the "children" appeared in my husband's Acceptance phase. I remember watching the two of them playing matchbox cars in the floor during that time...or running a remote controlled car across my kitchen floor. Son also helped his dad built a car from a kit that was bought from Wal Mart.....sorry, I got sidetracked, remembering.

The point is, son was involved quite a bit in this, of his own choosing; I simply gave him what he needed in information, he figured out the rest on his own.

I also prayed quite a bit about it, and the Lord answered my pleas for help. He worked within their hearts..and it took a LONG time..but they came together into a relationship of their OWN making; that had nothing to do with me.

Today, there is respect between the two, they love each other; they still butt heads from time to time, but that is a young man, and an old man for you. LOL!!

Bottom line, in the end, there was NO division of household..choices were made, relationships were built.

A few years later, son thanked me for putting so much on the line; so that he and his dad would build something together. He said that if it hadn't been for me being there for him, and talking to him, no telling what would have happened.
As it was, son watched from the wings for quite awhile, and when the fighting got bad, he literally would interrupt, and ask me if I were all right...he kept a check on me like that for a good while.

Kids, in my opinion, do NOT need to know what the MLC parent is doing...and if questions are raised, the answers are age-related. Tell less when little, more when older, is a normal way of handling family issues..but this is not a normal issue/situation, either. Too many things at stake, so the rules change.

I do NOT have any experience with very young children in MLC...I just know how my own experience turned out.

The MLC'er does enough damage on his/her own; give them enough rope and they will hang themselves quickly, WITHOUT any kind of help.

Children are NOT stupid, they CAN figure this out..but can feel "caught in the middle". It ends up being the LBS' job to try and make sure this doesn't happen..but it is so hard when the LBS is at war with feelings within.

It wasn't easy for me to put my own feelings aside; it would have been ALL too easy for me to "recruit" son to my side..he was already there, I could have reinforced that stand, but I chose NOT to, and later on, I was glad I did not.

But it could have gone so easily the other way, too, it's scary to think about what could have happened instead.

Remember, this is my own humble opinion, based on what I saw in my own situation.

Each person must choose what is best for their own situations.

HeartsBlessing -

Thank you for telling your story. I concur fully. You travelled the high ground.

HB,

Since It is likely that I'll do what BND suggested and start a thread about kids with a MLC relationship, I would hope that you would post that there as well.

Quote:

Each person must choose what is best for their own situations.

AND ONLY because people new here seem to need insert tab A into slot B type of directions at first, I would offer the modification of:

Quote:

Each person must choose what is best for their own children in their own situations.

Quote:

AND ONLY because people new here seem to need insert tab A into slot B type of directions at first, I would offer the modification of: Each person must choose what is best for their own children in their own situations.

No problem, Jack, I get what you mean..The whole situation to me at the time I was going through was already broken down into different areas, but I sometimes forget people don't look at things quite the way I do..that's the difference in people.

The problem with son didn't come up until I was already somewhere down the high road I was already taking; while some people are having to also deal with the child problem from word go. And having troubles separating that from what is already occurring.

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

I added your post to my file of "posts to ponder" - it struck a chord with me. Thanks for these words.

Sorry, new around here, I meant to include the post.

I added your post to my file of "posts to ponder" - it struck a chord with me. Thanks for these words.

Originally Posted By: Bworl

Self-sacrifice is not a popular concept in our world. Stories of faithfulness in the face of rejection or even just lack of something in return make the news because it's so rare these days.

Standing for a marriage that is in distress, particularly when one spouse seems to have wigged out is looked down upon by many as being enabling or being that doormat. Few recognize the honor in remaining true to your vows until the bitter end. Few have the stomach to truly endure the "worse" in "for better or worse."

If MLC is truly a psychological trauma born of hidden and unresolved wounds...if it truly is a crazy journey of the soul that must be navigated...then there is at least a part of the ridiculous behavior that is simply a part of their wicked journey. There is incredible inner anguish, both from pain and from emptiness. This anguish thrusts the MLC'er forward to remove things that have potentially brought the pain, and to grasp for things that will soothe the pain.

In that light, a left behind spouse honors their marriage and their spouse by remaining their rock - that lighthouse that can lead the other home one day.

hiya -

here' dbing and learning on this site. i just wanted to say your comment about doormat not knowing it's a doormat made me laugh becaus just yesterday i was telling my neice (who was yelling at a cat) that he was just a cat- doing what cats do. he doesn't know he's a cat and we're epople. he just is what he is.

it's true- the choice makes all the diff.

it's so true- your response made me blubber a bit- people don't seem to "get it" when it's not them in our shoes. oh well- thanks for the insight- it helps to know there are others out there - as usual.

Originally Posted By: C-Bart

Much of what we are dealing with here is cognitive dissonance. Coming out of the angry phase the MLCer is looking for a reason why they are feeling the way they are. There is a gap between what they think is the correct action and what they actually feel. What the MLCer is going through is an internal struggle between who they think they are and the actions that they are taking. After all a good person does not leave his/her family for no apparent reason.

This is an old post but I think this hits the nail on the head. I've been thinking about a conversation my husband and I had about 3 years ago, I don't remember all the details but I remember exactly where we were sitting and the general gist of it. We were talking about other people we know or heard about, and how he didn't respect those people for various things that they did in their personal relationships and he told me he could never be like that. And now, more or less, he is doing those things himself! He has his core reason and I accept that reason as valid, but the way he has gone about it is like these other people he didn't respect.

I think, if the man he was 3 years ago met the man he has become, the man of yesterday would hate the man of today, he would be embarrassed by the man of today, he would be ashamed of the man of today. But it may very well be that both men are inside him and the two men are fighting among themselves. When he tries to justify his current behavior, he uses his FEELINGS to explain them, but he also admits that he KNOWS what is right and that with time he will act that way, but he has to get his feelings out of his system first.

But then what happens when today's feelings are replaced by tomorrow's feelings?

Yes, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance. They must justify their behaviors some way; they have to rationalize why they have done what they did. Often, it seems they choose the rationalization that puts them in the best light. Their fragile egos and shattered self esteem can't handle the truth.