The Start Questioning my 180's Looking for reason Acceptance I float around here on the MLC board and I wanted to share my past. Let you all see my personal failures and successes. The path we each choose will be different...but the goal is the end in the same. That we become better people who are not defined by anything except ourselves.
Don't be afraid to fail, to cry, to smile or laugh....because it is those things that make us who were are.
Where am I....redefining a failed marriage. Everyday is work towards that goal as it always will be. My old marriage is gone and I have divorced myself from it's legacy. My new marriage is being built upon new perspective, new understanding, and within a completely different structure. Am I focused on it...nope. It happens as it happens.....I choose to enjoy the daily ride and see how things go....tomorrow isn't guaranteed and I live for today.
The best parts about this...I am a better man, I have an incredible relationship with my children, and my wife has come to love me more for my actions of love as opposed to the words I once used.
What an excellent thought provoking posting. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Snodderly..
I am slightly down today, but not because of my marriage. Business is soooo slow. Add to that the current weather situation making getting out to work in the field has been close to impossible...so the few jobs I have are currently parked waiting for snow to melt...blah.
Then we are witnessing the deterioration of a family member. Our treadmill has been with us for almost 10 years and is on it's way out. The treadmill really became my best friend through a lot of this....it was very mind clearing to get on it and spend an hour mindlessly plodding along. So know I have to find a way to replace her.....well I better get off here and get to finding a way.
On marriage at the moment. Not much going on....slow is good.
OH...forgot to add. Successful day yesterday. I actually got my kids to clean their rooms and then cooked a marvelous marinated tuna steak with a white rice and vegetable side...yummy.
Our treadmill has been with us for almost 10 years and is on it's way out. The treadmill really became my best friend through a lot of this
Have you tried craigs list. I have one in my basement that is not being used. Of course I probably don't live to close to you either.
Sorry to hear about the demise of your treadmill.:) Craigslist is a great place to find stuff like that.
Glad things are okay on the marriage front (such a good thing to hear!) and I hope your snow melts and your work picks up!
Good idea...I will give Craigslist a search. I am truly saddened by this...feels odd. The treadmill of course has become such a part of my life. I may need to do a little self evaluation.
OP-You are looking for 180's.....Making an unused treadmill used may be a good 180. And yes you are a little bit to far away though I did spend most of my life not that far away in MA. Now I live down south were we weren't supposed to get snow all that often and this year it is a weekly thing...lol
Lost,
I am glad that you are posting here.
Good solid advice, and examples to follow. Level headed and empathic.
Glad you are here.
Jack-
We both know that through process of elimination I would end up here on the small bus. The bigger bus drivers just didn't know what to do with me.
In all reality I should probably be in piecing....but I feel more at home here.
As do I. : )
Piecing...
Is unique. The pitfalls and paths are different for everyone, there is no "One size fits all" catagory beyond: keep your boundary and always be able to enforce it.
It is a razor's edge full of cut feet. : )
But what is life without pitfalls and razors.....we define it by who we are and how we walk the path.
How are you by the way? I reviewed my old posts and realized I hadn't asked that in awhile...rather rude of me actually.
Thanks man.
I am good. Really good.
Very interesting conversation during therapy yesterday. We discussed the law of attraction and visualization.
In the past, I first found visualization very helpful in sports. Prior to a football or hockey game I would visual every play in my head. Each action I would take...and the positive outcome that each action would achieve. Come game time...I was ready to go and knew what I was going to do.
I still practice it today, just not as successfully. We were discussing how the economy isn't going right and I was complaining about issues out of my control. So he asked me if I was proactively visualizing what I wanted to achieve...and I wasn't.
So my latest 180 is to work on my visualization skills...focusing on working in the field...since the end goal is getting work and be in the field means that I got a project. So I focused/mediated with my vision this morning for 20 minutes. I will share the outcome with you all...should be fun.
OK...review of positive thinking a visualization...Last 24 hours
In the surveying business I have been notified I got a project and I am just waiting on a signed contract
Since yesterday I have calls for estimates on three DJ gigs and it looks like I am booking a fourth one (started before visualization).....
Another note to self; I like what I am seeing on the board...maybe a change in the season, but there are a lot of people in positive situations
So glad you have some positives in regards to work!
TF-
There is positive in everything...as long as you open up to it. I told my therapist not long ago.....this was a journey that my wife and I needed to go through. Was it painful...very much. The truth, that I see in hindsight, is that there was a lot more gained than lost....even if it had been my marriage. I see the world differently, I appreciate the small things, stress about a lot less, and feel like I am on a much better path for myself...instead of for every one else.
In here, sometimes we get so wrapped up in our marriages that we forget to talk about all the other things that are important....So I remind myself to sometimes talk about stuff that has no regards to my marriage....just to remember that there is more to life.
You are so right. I have always been a glass half empty kind of person and that is something I have been trying to turn around for the past year or so. I can sit back and look at my blessings and they are many!
A couple of weeks ago I started this with the kids, too. Before bed each night they have to tell me at least one good thing about their day. They now look forward to it and don't want to miss.
And there is definitely more to life than marriage for sure.
Well officially booked the fourth gig and I know the signed contract for the survey will be coming in today....so a good day.
The downer of the day being that two of my cd players need work, and of course DJ CD players are not cheap to fix. So I have some things to do.
Semi-busy day today.....I need to download more music, draft up a plan, and then tonight is a bouncing night.
On the marriage side of things...the wife and I are working together on getting back into the shape we want to be. Discussing our diets and work outs...so that is cool. I also think she was showing me off yesterday...I brought something to her work and instead of coming outside to get it...she had me come inside and introduced me to the new employees. That is a first in a long time....since it used to be easier for her to hide the kids and I than acknowledge us....Off for a run since it is finally warm enough to do that
Been a few hectic days since I last journalled.
Marriage-Still quite on that one, but may have issues coming up. The wife is a boss of sorts now...so she is making the transitions from having co-worker friends to having friends who are employees. In my experience this is often a very hard transition because people just don't know how to handle the change. well today she had words with an old friend co-worker who is now and employee. Of course my wife was right in discussing unprofessional behavior in the work place, but the friend then called my wife out on face book...didn't directly say it was my wife...but insinuated how she wasn't a good person. Will have to see how this goes....but telling some one that they have no appreciation for their family and are a PITA is sure to have some consequences...LOL
Money-Will this economy change? There must be one high end economist posting on here with at least one good piece of news. The weather has basically killed my business for the last two months, cost me nights working at the bar, and now things are beyond tight. Like Rameen Noodles for the next two weeks tight....I hate this. The good news though....we have removed $25,000 in debt since December 1st....That has cost me a few nights sleep and I had to sell my jeep to pull it off....but that is one monkey off our back.
Temptation-I hate to say it, but temptation tempted me often this weekend. The marriage is getting better, but the...ahem....physical side of things is basically non-existent. This weekend was hard...On Friday night I had this very persistent 25 year old trying to get me to go out for breakfast with her after closing...it took awhile, but I got out of it without hurting her feelings. Then Saturday night I had two women ask me to their hotel room (the bar is in a hotel).....all I did was talk with them! No flirting...no innuendo...nothing. Then to top it off....I break up a heated argument between two guys over a girl. It appears that the girl was an ex of one of them and he didn't like her dancing with the other guy. So after it is done and we get the guys out of the place...she starts talking with me. I do my bouncer thing and listen to her...shortly she comments what a good listener I am, how I am cute, and do I want to go and talk over a beer in her room. WTF! I have to keep my mind on the goal.....but this was over the top. I need to go check my bank accounts...maybe the wife was paying them to tempt me...LOL.
Super Highlight of the weekend;
We went bowling as a family Saturday (good thing the owner cut us an awesome deal...basically bowled for free) and there was no fighting. Everyone actually had a good time. My wife even commented that it have never happened that way before. Of course my wife did kick my butt......:)
I'll try one more question. This one is open to anyone on this entire board.
I think that the difference between a WAS and a MLC is the childhood issues, but the hormonal issues are the same for both. Anyone care to share their thought on this?
LFW you seem to have more knowledge about WAS than I do. I had this posted on my thread but no one seemed to answer. We seemed to discuss the science behind MLC. Is there any science behind WAS?
I'll be happy to give you my opinion. Hormonal changes will be the same for both the WAS and the MLCer. That's a known fact. Childhood issues/depression are what drives the MLC train. In my opinion WAS are those who get tired of the same ole same ole and do not want to try again. There is absolutely little or no confusion on the WAS' part once they walk out the door. MLCers demonstrate a lot of confusion as they go through the crisis.
My husband was confused at 1st but once he left he knew what he wanted.....and that was to make a life with her......they planned the move for at least a yr before he finally took her....maybe my husband is just a WAS......and her eI thought he was a MLC......now I am really depressed.......
In my opinion WAS are those who get tired of the same ole same ole and do not want to try again. There is absolutely little or no confusion on the WAS' part once they walk out the door. MLCers demonstrate a lot of confusion as they go through the crisis.
Can you give some examples of what you think MLC confusion looks like vs. acting in response to feeling guilty?
Very good question OP,
Snodderly basically hit it....the hard part is identifying the differences between a WAS and an MLC'er.
MLC- If you read up on MLC....it really hasn't become an accepted psychology diagnosis. Why? Because it really is more of a symptom to other problems. Whether it is childhood issues, abuse, depression, bi-polar...there is almost always an issue. The hard part for us as LBS is to separate our pain from the situation and look at our spouse objectively....once you can do that the path to their MLC is usually fairly obvious.
WAS-The tend to be at the other end of the spectrum. With WAS LBS posters on here you often have to read between the lines and usually the truth will come out, but the WAS is usually sick of the same ole. The WAS will usually have very specific complaints about the marriage (unlike MLC'ers who will blame everything including the weather).....and the complaints are common long term complaints. So in the WAS world the will plan to get out, save money, hide things.....there will be little or no waffling...they are just done. One of the reasons I disagree with pushing hardcore tactics on newbies is that they haven't addressed the issues that the WAS brings up.....so if the hardcore tactics work and the WAS returns...they return to the same hell they left....soon to leave again.
I think hormones can acts a catalyst for MLC, but not the cause. I have come up with four major catalysts;
1-Severe financial hardship (Bankruptcy type problems)
2-Hormonal changes (very hard to notice)
3-Death of a loved one-(obviously)
4-Moving (significant change in life)
4a-Military deployment (very similar to moving so I don't separate)
The key is that these are just catalysts that cause us to go into our integrity vs. despair portion of our human development. Then throw in unresolved childhood issues, depression, etc and MLC'ers slide right into a deep despair.
TCBT-
Look for the confusion with interaction with others....A WAS will refer to their marriage as done....an MLC will still refer to their spouse as their spouse. That is one of the easier hints to look for. Each person will show their confusion differently....overall I wouldn't suggest looking for it.....it is easier and more productive to work on yourself.
Yes ---- I know......the work has begun.....but the questions will always remain.
The question will always remain just like "when will the economy change" and "do aliens really exist. Some questions are out of our control...so we can only strive to answer the questions we can.
CW-
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. I feel that in MLC you have to find a middle ground on contact. Not being there at the beckon call....but also not being completely NC....more a dim. They will come and talk....but you have to be open to them coming to you and talking. The hard part is you will have to bite your tongue and validate and listen. It is hard.....but you can't probe, you can't question...you have to communicate. It is actually quite deep if you let it happen.
First understand, and then be understood.
Lost,
You posted this in HB's thread and I just saw it and did not want to interupt her thread but I just had to tell you this is exactly where I am with my W right now. I am finding that we are having these R talks and it is like I am practicing what I have learned and each time I get a little better at it. My problem is that I am probably initiating too much and I keep expecting her to draw back into the tunnel but so far she has not.
I sorry to interupt your thread, but it is nice when someone pretty much sums up in a few words where you are at in your sitch and you did just that with this post for me.
MHL-
It really is learning to communicate. Even outside of our situation...how often to you sit and just listen to somebody? Just last night I was working and we were closing up. I started to talk with a veteran....and I just listened. We talked life, physics, poetry, classical language, and his experiences. He ended up crying......thanked me....and said "Thank you for just listening....a lot of people can't do that".
I think that society has lost a lot of the skill to just listen. We interject with opinion or solutions....when in reality most people just want to be heard. I have fine tuned this skill going through the process here.....and it is one of the things that has made me a better person.
She will keep coming and talking. While you do need to be aware if she is cake walking or using you for security.....you can set boundaries to stop that. The truth though....were that boundary is set is up to you. I used to listen to my wife complain about her GF...I just listened. Was it hard? Unbelievably! But she wanted to be heard.....but doing it that was is extremely challenging and really defining about your personal strength.
Personally, I would have nothing to do with her if I thought she was still seeing another person. And I would let her know that I thought it was disrespectful to continue living in the house while she did so.
Boy does this sound like my W. She has been consistent throughout the whole process. She has told everyone that it is over and she continues on with her plan. She has not waffed once. I do believe though that based on her comments of "i have lost myself" that she may be a MLCer; however, she demonstrates a lot of the WAS tendancies.
Eric-
I am still unsure on your wife honestly....while she has shown some MLC tendencies...she also has some of the WAS catalysts you have admitted to. Either way.....you have issues that you are dealing with....and that is the most important thing.
You will get through this......of that I am sure.
Thanks Lost. Yeah I kinda of feel like she is a little of both. I do believe she has completely checked out, which is why I struggle with should I stay or not. As I posted earlier I need to sort this out and sort it out soon. I may suggest a LS, which is what she originally asked for and see where is goes but I'm not sure yet. I just know that I may not be able to deal with a sexless/emotionaless M. The logistic may mean that I remain in the home for a period of time but it just may be the closure that her and I need. If their were no OM I would really try and stick it out but with OM consuming all of her attention and with her inability to let go of the anger that she feels the outcome is really dim. The Sept date was a date that I pushed - however, she did ask for a LS in January and I was able to postpone. At the time I thought that additional time would help but part of me really feels that she needs to live her life single.
By the way i appreciate your perspective.
I do believe she has completely checked out,
Don't believe...Know that is fact the case...because it is.
As I posted earlier I need to sort this out and sort it out soon.
In the end what is more fulfilling...riding a roller coaster for a 30 seconds or sitting by a quiet stream in silence for a day?
If their were no OM I would really try and stick it out but with OM consuming all of her attention and with her inability to let go of the anger that she feels the outcome is really dim.
Don't focus on what I am about to say....but the truth is 90% of these relationships fail in 6-12 months....90%. For god's sake...my wife was sure she was a lesbian. The OM is a symptom of the problem...not a cause. Statistics say he will disappear.
At the time I thought that additional time would help but part of me really feels that she needs to live her life single.
She does need it...that is why you go dim and work on yourself. Let the fantasy of single life hit her full in the face (she will find it is not pretty as my wife did).
The logistic may mean that I remain in the home for a period of time but it just may be the closure that her and I need.
Would you rather be home in a house you know with your children or home alone in a house were the children come for only a brief period of time?
TCBTE,
but the questions will always remain.
No they won't.
And not because you got answers.
Sometimes you realize the questions weren't all that important and don't even matter.
I hope you get there.
J3B.....me too....somedays I feel closer to "being there," and other days I feel like I'm back to square one......as you know.
A long weekend ended with an MLC backflash. I worked three evenings at the bar this week....so I am a bit tired. Overall things were basically quiet...until Sunday. A few of my wife's co-workers came into the bar Saturday night and I mentioned to her Sunday morning that they were there.
That eventually turned into "Why doesn't anybody like me?" and a woman who spent the whole day on a very short fuse. None the less...I gave her space and listened when talked to. She does have a predicament and maybe we all do. She is tired of friends who want something...whether it is they want to f#ck her (her words) or for her to do them a favor....it seems like everyone she meets wants something. So we talked about her friends and how she wants friends just like me...smart, insightful, etc...:). We also spent some quality time both Saturday and Sunday morning in bed just talking and snuggling a little bit which was just another small change in our relationship modus of operatus.
She is now reading Covey's book on highly effective people....currently she is working on focusing her concern on things she controls and removing herself from things she doesn't. She has done ok...we will see how it goes.
Currently....the economy has to change, but I am worried about the recent economic data released. Things appear to be heading in the wrong direction very badly. I am not worried so to speak...but more people I know have been layed off in the last few months to add to the pile of people I know who can't find jobs....I don't have an answer for this, but hopefully it comes soon.
Jack-Sounds like the trip went well. Reminds me that I need to do the same...priorities...priorities.
Currently....the economy has to change, but I am worried about the recent economic data released. Things appear to be heading in the wrong direction very badly.
Can I vote for this. PLEASE!!
but more people I know have been layed off in the last few months to add to the pile of people I know who can't find jobs....I don't have an answer
Same thing here in NY!
Hey Lost...
I gotta couple questions for you....
And they are about your history
Nothing bad, and I think I can "skate" around and find my answers....
Did you start out posting in Seperated ?
Did your W ever want to change her name ?
Bear with me on this, I could be wrong...
I just remember reading of this, and forgot the posters name after some time, so looking for that thread would be difficult...
IF that is you.....I often wondered about you.....
Mach,
I started in Infidelity, but after hearing Puppy's advice I knew something was different in my situation compared to the ones he deals with...just didn't know what at that point.
Then I posted briefly in 180's-but that board is basically dead for advice
Moved to walk away-But once again the postings just didn't seem to fit
Ended up in Separated and then eventually Jack found me.....then I was able to find my home. Of course by that point I was well on my way to fixing myself. Overall I didn't post much until now....I find it spiritually fulfilling to help others deal with their journey.
Oh yeah....my wife never mentioned changing her name....maybe an MLC hint on her part?
So I am on day two of advanced DB'ing communication tactics applied to real world applications. See my wife has been moved up into a supervisor position. Of course with that comes dealing with staff in an efficient and productive manner.
So to expand on myself...until I was let go in 2008....I was being trained to take over as the division head in my company. So on top of the usual field specific training...I had to forgo many hours of training dealing with supervision and improving productivity, team awareness, etc....So in essence, I am a trained manager (as opposed to some one who is just told they are a manager).
So as I listened for two days....it was awfully hard not to interject and try to "Fix" the situation. I validated often and repeatedly...slipped once or twice trying to offer suggestion, but caught myself.
So why am I discussing this....I just want to implore on us all that DB'ing techniques shouldn't just end when you have started to rekindle the flame....they are a tool that can be used for almost any situation. The old me would have been giving suggestions all day on how to fix things....the new me validated....shared resources that she could look at if she wanted....but in the end I changed the situation from trying to force my world on her to just listening and trying to understand her frustrations....the same can be done with my kids, friends, co-workers, etc....as we say all the time....the changes are for you and in you changing, others get an even better reward.
LFW
I really am not following you around but that was really good!
You own your own business? How do you keep from fixing things in your own business? Doesn't that have to be done? Of course some of this is leadership. Sounds like things I learned at the Academy but then when you gave an order someone was expected to follow it.
I do have a business (two actually), but my wife works for another company. So I do have to fix things...for myself, but I don't need to fix things for others.
One thing I did learn...there are two forms of management;
1-Give orders
2-Give help
Number 1 is authoritarian, doesn't give employees job "ownership", and uses employees more than invests in them
Number 2-Involves giving an employee clear goals and then helping them achieve those goals on their own. This gives the employees "ownership" of their work and what they achieve.
Which do you think is more productive?
Definitely number 2...sadly most managers never take the time to to see it. Actually when all this started I was already reviewing myself...I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't place it. So I was reviewing how I interacted with my employees as situation #1 and that wasn't working. I then switched to learning how to do situation #2.
I really think that switch is what helped me through this. I had already started to look at things differently....more as a leader than a manager. One of the trademarks of a good leader is that they are comfortable in their own skin.....so I was progressing down that path.
It is still weird to look back over my transformation over the last three years. Yes some old habits still exist.....but I have changed a lot. I feel a lot better for it.
OP, I asked the same question of HB in her thread and she responded this way...
Hi DestinyUnknown,
Quote:
What do you think the major difference is between an MLCer and a WAS?
An MLC'er is going through an emotional life changing adjustment. The Midlife transition that becomes a crisis is a confusing time for the MLC'er. They seriously cannot see what they are doing when they rip their families and marriage asunder. They feel they are doing the right thing for themselves, and their actions are viewed as weakness and selfishness.
A WAS is someone who generally has been through a great deal in the marriage, and because he/she lacks communication skills, and the knowledge to bring about a change of circumstances; will choose to walk away rather than face the issues at hand, blow it all into the open and try to work it out.
That is generally seen as a weakness and also selfishness on WAS' part.
In either circumstances, OW/OM could be involved..but the situations are very different.
Also in both circumstances, neither give the LBS a chance to "fix" what went wrong. The WAS may turn back, the MLC'er may not.
I've read that the WAS is in a confused state similar to the MLC'er; but I think the confusion is not as deep as the MLC'er's.
I seriously believe, the major difference is in the knowledge of what each is doing. The WAS is well aware of what they are doing, the MLC'er is not until a much later time; when, hopefully, they start coming forward and facing their issues.
I realize I have referred to MLC'ers and WAS as one and the same before; my mistake.
Their actions are at times the same, but the awarenesses are not.
Did this help?
DU-
What HB says is very true. A WAS spouse will act very deliberately...with a plan per say. Were as the MLC'er will be more confused....almost lacking knowledge of right or wrong in there pursuit of self-fulfillment.
I think the biggest challenge for an MLC LBS is that you have to understand that this takes years....not months like a WAS. So you have to make the choice and decide if you want to fight the fight for as long as it takes.
Interesting phone therapy session today. My sessions start with one word describing my feelings for that day. Usually it is frustration....which is good in that while I am frustrated...I understand that a lot of what frustrates me is not in my control....so in comparison with a lot of people...my noted frustration would just be a small...well very small part of what most people consider frustration.
Today was different...today I am impatient. Why? Selfishness maybe. The twist is that in two parts of my life I know that I am on the right path....but I am still impatient. So it is like I am drawing two ends of a string together...one side being my knowledge that I am doing the right thing and the other the impatience of not getting what I want at the rate I want it. This is a hard place to stand for a long time and one that a lot of us face in our marriage situations. We know that we are doing the right thing, but the results are not fast enough.
What is interesting is that a Jungian psychologist noted that the longer you can stay between these two strings....the more growth you will find. The emotional tension builds your strength and just like weightlifting....the longer you do it....the easier it becomes. I think I am a fine example of that....here I am three years into holding the two string ends that represent my marriage. I am not whining or screaming....I am acknowledging that I am impatient...looking for ways to control and understand that emotion....I know this is deep stuff....but I hope anybody who reads this finds the opportunity to achieve this level of inner knowing....as it is a powerful place to be.
So what does this revelation have to do with.....my business and my relationship with my wife. While my wife and I have have continued to grow intimacy (being communication, trust, forgiveness, honesty, etc) our passion (physical closeness, etc) is not registering on any radars or measurement devices in the world. I know it would be pushing if I broach the subject at this point and that I should be happy with what has become....but at the same time I question how much I have given myself to the situation. In the end I realize that the increased intimacy might be more fulfilling in the end and the end will be achieving my desired results...so for now I am going to be happy with what I have achieved this far....and use this challenge to grow further.
On growth....My therapist made a statement that I am still reflecting on;
To live large, one must ask bigger questions
What does that mean to you? I am unsure what it means to me at this point....but I am curious. Do you ask yourself "bigger questions"?
My questions (big and small) revolve around my goals.
Am I a good dad, a good husband, a good friend?
How do I beat L4D2 on expert with Realism turned on? (joke)
I think our questions define us, and the answers shape us.
What is Life, is a big question. With an large ammount of answers. But which ANSWERS make me live large?
Life is the chemical and electirc reaction of cells either alone or in a supportive matrix.... YAWN!
Life is experience...now that answer makes me want to go get some more.
I think our questions define us, and the answers shape us.
What is Life, is a big question. With an large ammount of answers. But which ANSWERS make me live large?
Life is the chemical and electirc reaction of cells either alone or in a supportive matrix.... YAWN!
Life is experience...now that answer makes me want to go get some more.
I like that Jack...very zen Buddhists type stuff. Ask the question, have the experience of finding the answer....live life.
What is Life, is a big question.
Life is the chemical and electirc reaction of cells either alone or in a supportive matrix.... YAWN!
Life is experience...now that answer makes me want to go get some more.
Did you leave one out? Nope its still there!
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Quote of the day-
"Nobody is perfect. We just need to be who we are. We will still love you even if you aren't perfect...as long as you are you"
-Unnamed 7 year old girl to her friend
Makes me think that as we grow up we lose something. Or maybe we inherit expectations and lose innocence?
Yeah...I am proud.
It has been a relatively quiet weekend on the board....So I hope that everyone had an enjoyable weekend.
Here it has been a weekend of highs and lows;
Friday-I had a backsliding communication event. We received our tax returns and though we briefly discussed how the money was going to be allocated....it wasn't a full conversation. Now that happened a couple of weeks ago...and when the money came in I was very focused on paying down debt and moving some into savings. So I started planning and guess what...never fully discussed it with my wife! So we had a couple of little discussions through out the day how I was being impulsive and not communicating properly. I guess it was one of those times that my ADD really took over. I was hyper-focused on what I wanted and not what we needed to discuss. So pretty low...but I realized that I made a mistake and we moved on.
Saturday-The wife went shopping....found some great deals and ended up buying $75 worth of clothes for $7...yeah...$7. When she returned we discussed some house repairs that need to be made and that I had bar backed the night before and made extra cash. So we went to Lowe's looking to replace two toilets (one old the other had a broken lid). So I talk to the manager about buying a replacement lid and he then tells me that I can't order one...so just take a new one out of box and replace it. So a free lid and I only had to get one toilet...yippee me. We then go and use my extra tip cash to get the kids some fish (our tank had only one fish left) which made their day. So then we come home...hang out for a bit...then head to another town looking for some boots (Tall black leather boots) my wife has wanted. We end up finding the last pair of boots (the only pair of boots in the store) on a clearance rack in her size...who would figure! Then it gets better....We buy the boots for $16 that were listed for $75....We grab some dinner with the kids (which was fun and filling)....Then on the way home we hear her song...and right after it comes a song I love...David Cook...Come back to me. So I turn it up a little and she looks at me....Says "I love this songs" and starts rubbing my arm....pretty cool.
Sunday-I install the new toilet, we go and purchase a new bed for my son (I didn't want to do it, but he has had the bed since he was two and it was in pretty bad shape...ok...disgusting shape), and then partake in some afternoon cocktails with the wife. Heavy flirting going on...feeling good. Eventually the neighbors invite us over for dinner. We get there and my neighbor gives me a couple of maxim he had. One article is about "How to cheat" and my wife starts reading it...commenting upon it.....room gets very, very, very, quiet...until my wife realizes it and mention how she should shut her mouth. It was very hard for me to keep my mouth shut and extremely disrespectful of her. But it rolled over and moved to dinner. She ate too much and came home not feeling well and very pissy....was being short with me and the kids. So I just ignored it...got the kids in bed and flopped in front of a movie. So the end of the weekend was really a downer....but overall it was a good weekend.
The only other oddity of the week was a new employee my wife hired. She is a tall short haired blond a few years older than my wife. Now my wife is starting to see that as a boss you can't be friends with your employees....just doesn't work well IMHO. So this new woman bought lunch for my wife three times this week. Thursday she commented that the new employee brown nosing was different...but a nice perk to being the boss. Which we laughed at. So my wife took her and another co-worker to lunch Friday (making up for the previous bought lunches by both of them)....during which the new employee asked my wife to go to the movies. I think it unnerved my wife a little bit. She is unsure if the the new woman is gay...but she said that it felt like the woman was pursuing her. I didn't say much...but it is odd that a new employee takes the boss out to lunch three times in a week and then asks her to go to the movies.
Thoughts on that last part Jack? I am not concerned at this point.....or maybe I am over concerned. I guess I am slightly confused....lol.
You say you gotta go and find yourself
You say that you're becoming someone else
Don't recognize the face in the mirror looking back at you
You say you're leaving as you look away
I know there's really nothing left to say
Just know I'm here whenever you need me I'll wait for you
So I'll let you go, I'll set you free
And when you've seen what you need to see
When you find you, come back to me
Take your time, I won't go anywhere
Picture you with the wind in your hair
I'll keep your things right where you left them
I'll be here for you
Oh and I'll let you go, I'll set your free
And when you've seen what you need to see
When you find you, come back to me
And I hope you find everything that you need
I'll be right here waiting to see
You find you, come back to me
I can't get close if you're not there
I can't get inside if there's no soul there
I can't face you, I can't save you
It's something you'll have to do
So I'll let you go, I'll set you free
And when you've seen what you need to see
When you find you, come back to me
Come back to me
So I'll let you go, I'll set you free
And when you've seen what you need to see
When you find you, come back to me
And I hope you find everything that you need
I'll be right here waiting to see
You find you, come back to me
You find you, come back to me
When you find you, come back to me
When you find you, come back to me
Lyrics to "Come Back to me" by David Cook
LFW and anyone else too!
Could you look at two threads Destiny and MILA. They could use extra help.
Thanks
Happy Spring to everyone
Well it has been two weeks...so time for an update.
Been busy with business stuff. A couple of small jobs out the door and a lot of proposals. Seems to be a continuing trend for the business...spend days writing proposals for nothing. A catch-22 of sorts. I need to write the proposals to get the work....but it gets very tiring and frustrating writing proposal after proposal.
The kids...I need help. I just cannot seem to get them to clean at all. So I am open to suggestions. I have tried the hardass approach (didn't work), being friendly and help (seems like I am the one cleaning), and a reward system. Now my consistency sometimes lacks....but after a week things tend to fall downhill with children fighting cleaning up their messes. I didn't sleep well last night and woke once again to kids stuff littered all over the house. It is frustrating as hell. Maybe I am just getting stay at home mom worn out. Just seems that every time I clean something....a child comes along making more of a mess.
My son started baseball this last week. He has played soccer since he was 4, but he decided to try baseball. So I got him a baseball glove and hardball. So with that our new habit is to play catch every afternoon. So far he is making huge strides and parents and coaches alike have noted that they can't believe this is his first season of baseball. (Note to above- he really isn't the mess maker of my two children at this point).
Wife-I guess we may be going through the smaller coaster of piecing. We have been spending some afternoons together and talking a lot. This weekend was deeper than usual..
She is reading a self-help book that comes with a work book. So she has been doing the writing assignments that come with each chapter. Pretty deep questions about essential self (the self we want/need to be) and social self (The self that is demanded by friends, etc).
Her break down of me is that I am her best friend and the only person she truly trusts and can be comfortable with. That she looks forward to talking to me and knows that she can count on me to turn to. That downer of course is that she feels no passion towards me what so ever. She also noted that I am one of the only "right" things she has ever felt in her life. She has also taken to calling me sweetie or babe again...
She did say the following sentence kind of defines her essential self;
"If it isn't perfect, it isn't right"
That is a tough one for me. How can one be perfect? I really think "perfect" is not achievable. There is always more perfect? So how do you live with a person who expects perfection? I am mentally flopping at the moment.
I know that I cannot make her world perfect....so why does it challenge me so?
I like the way you think Lost, have for a long time.
I belive you can strive for perfection...that should be the goal, but perfection is an ideal, beyond man.
From the web:
Surprisingly, a fine Persian rug will almost always include intentional imperfections. In fact, there's an old Persian proverb that says, "A Persian Rug is Perfectly Imperfect, and Precisely Imprecise". This notion of intentionally including slight and minor irregularities is derived from the religious belief that God is the only perfect being and that attempting absolute perfection would be claiming the position of the Almighty
Pretty deep questions about essential self (the self we want/need to be)
Wouldn't this...SELF define who your friends were? And if that is true then...that should be the self demanded by friends right?
Otherwise it seems to me...like someone is wearing a mask
And friendship is inheirently selfish. A friend wants times, and you want your friend's time.
Have you asked her about what she sees as...passionate?
Jack,
I have to agree with the Persians about perfection...maybe a step further in saying that true beauty is not defined by the perfection of an object, but by it's individualistic imperfections.
Maybe the issue of perfection may be what defines whether our marriage survives or crumbles. I don't expect perfection from anyone, just that they try to the best of their ability to be all that they can be. As long as some one is trying to be better.....they are doing pretty good in my book.
If I strived for perfection in everything, wouldn't I then eventually find imperfection in the perfection I created? So could it be that my wife has this floating picture of perfection in her head. Say cooking....initially in her perfect picture I cooked once in a while...then after time once in awhile wasn't perfect enough. So then it was perfect that I cooked all the time....which soon turned into cooking a perfect meal all the time. Maybe I am just way off base and getting to close to her issue than just accepting I am not perfect...LOL. The weird part....is she just has this way about her that makes me want to be better than what I am.
Wouldn't this...SELF define who your friends were? And if that is true then...that should be the self demanded by friends right?
Otherwise it seems to me...like someone is wearing a mask
I think that you have hit on is where the self-help author is going. That you should let your "self" define your "social" person as opposed to the other way around. Yet as humans we let society define us. When my wife was deep in her MLC her friends would say she was the "center of the party", need to be around large groups of people, and was the party starter. Yet now, as before MLC, she says she much prefers to be alone or spending quality time with one person. So MLC helped her make a mask of her inner self.......Maybe that is really a way to understand MLC. Not an unveiling of true self, but instead a mask to hide the pain of the repressed inner self.
I am going to dwell on that! I do agree though that friendships are inherently selfish. Almost any relationship is.....but maybe that is why some people search for a lifetime for inner peace...so they can have a relationship with god or self that is free from want.
Have you asked her about what she sees as...passionate?
I am going to ask. Off the cuff I think it would mean anything to her tied to yearning. We have plenty of intimate moments in deep conversation one on one. Beyond that though...I just don't know.
Have to ask the question to get the answer
I usually try to go two weeks between posts, but this was a weekend worthy of posting.
Friday- During the day my wife contacts me....makes it a point that she wants us to go out for lunch. Have an enjoyable lunch, but here is the twist. Her co-worker comes along also....after lunch my wife mentions that she had just wanted lunch to be the two of us.
That evening when I leave for work....she mentions how she wished that I could stay home with her instead of going to work.
Saturday-We split the day up...she takes my daughter to the mall looking for boots. I take the boy to baseball practice and then we go grocery shopping. So we finish up our individual stuff with the kids around 5:30...I am beat from being up to 4 the night before and looking at the same for Saturday night...so instead of cooking....family visit to an Italian restaurant. Goes good, kids behaved, food is excellent....wife mentions that she has had a super day.
Sunday-I am completely wiped out (staying up to 4 is just not that fun anymore...LOL). That said, children don't understand sleeping in and wake us up. So I make pancakes for the family and then make a big batch of meatballs....yummy. We settle down for an afternoon movie and the wife insists that I sit next to her.....wow. Then a bigger wow.....wife tells me "For the first time in years....I really liked being home with my family for the weekend".....wow. Then we make a cheesecake as a family....unheard of a mere six months ago.
So it can work out.
LFW,
We both seem to be in a very similar place. Glad your weekend went well.
Lost
Congrat's on the positive weekend man! Congrats!
LFW - So glad you had a great weekend! Looks like a lot of progress.:)
Interesting couple of days...I have been actually very busy with the kids (spring break), the business (more proposals and one decent sized job), and the wife.
Overall things were going very steady and strong...two weekends ago were a blast and this weekend was a bag of mixed nuts.
My wife returned from work immediately upon leaving Thursday morning....she was let go from her job. The place wasn't making numbers and since she had become middle management....she got chopped. So a little bit of financial stress is coming our way. I just need to keep plugging along.
Friday-Excellent day of hiking with family and friends finished off by going on a double date with the friends to the movies and out for dinner prior to me going to work...very good day and lots of fun all around.
Saturday-Busy morning...baseball, soccer, shopping, etc...etc. Then I am unsure if I backslide or she did. Around 3:00 I crashed to watch a movie and she came in with her laptop. Now opinions vary....but there was at least a 1 1/2 hour chat and flirt session with a guy she doesn't know outside of work...ending for me when I noticed her sending him a picture of her tattoo that is on her front hip. Not a nasty picture....but if a woman sent it to me, I would take it as heavy suggestive flirting. So I asked her who she was chatting with...her reply "Nobody...I wasn't chatting". I said that I saw her chatting for over and hour and she replied "very little chatting". She finally admitted that she was chatting and flirting with with a business associate (hard to explain)...."To help with her low self-esteem from being fired". That I wasn't giving her space...should be minding my own business....and that when I questioned her 3 years ago about odd chatting that caused her to have the affair. She believes that if I hadn't confronted her three years ago, that the affair wouldn't have happened.
So I go to work and ask myself if I am being a hypocrite. In the throes of all this...a women sent me a topless picture. Oddly, I told my wife immediately about the picture. Don't know why, I just did. She brought that up. Also...I flirt with women at work. It is almost part of the job, be nice to the patrons. I have been propositioned multiple times, but naturally I have not taken one offer. So am I just as guilty as her?
So on Sunday we discussed it some more. Not a lot, but a little more. I asked her why she never was jealous of the woman at the bar. Her reply; "I have been....but you never gave me reason to distrust you"....basically the end of the conversation.
Things have been quiet since then...Today we worked around the house, laid in the sun together for an hour. Really a pretty good day....she even bragged about me on facebook.
So did I overreact? This guy is a long way from here, so I am not worried. That still doesn't explain my quick rush to judgment. She posted how jealousy is actually just a person showing their own lack of self-worth. I am still pondering that!
Hi Lost! I got brave enough to go back and re-read some of my old posts and saw yours to me and realized I hadn't seen you posting for awhile.
I hope you and your W worked things out since this last post! I personally have never thought a little flirting hurt anything but when a S has had an A, I don't know.
Otherwise, things sound like they are going ok for you
I got some messages on the Alt and of of course CW here....and just wanted to give an update. I do want to be here sharing my experiences with you all, but at the moment life is kicking my butt pretty good. Things are going very well with my wife and continue to be getting better......The problem being lately is the affect of outside influences on our living situation.
My wife lost here job back in early April and was not given a cause for release. So that kicked her unemployment benefits straight into a contested situation which basically means we will be waiting 8-12 weeks for her unemployment to kick in. From there she had a mammogram and biopsy (it came out fine) done in early April and ended up with $1800 in hospital bills even though she had insurance at the time.
This week I had to rebuild a well house and water system (we share a well with two other houses) because the system failed. I also did some work for a rather large company and found out after completing the work that the company is on a 60 day pay schedule....so cash flow I was expecting this month probably won't arrive until the end of June.
I continue to bounce, have booked a weekly DJ'ing gig at a local bar, and continue to propose on whatever DJ or Land Surveying work I can find....but times are tough. So with that I have been completely focused on finding ways to pay the bills. Which, sadly, leaves me little time to be here.
I really do appreciate everyone here and wish I could be here more....just right now it doesn't work. I do stop in when I can, but usually only for a few minutes.
I hope everyone has a good weekend and send a big belated HUG to all the mother's in the group.
Update of sorts.....been working like crazy. Basically I have four poorly paying part time jobs, so I have cranked up the total numbers of hours worked.
The kids have basically been great....really great. Playing together and alone 90% of the time with minimal fighting.
We ended up on vacation which was great until the last day. It seems that my wife felt that I was getting to close to her. Basically once I got close to her in the pool and she walked away in disgust and another time I tried to give her a kiss goodnight and she turned her head from me. It all came to a head that last day when she said she wanted to be "here", but that she hated me. She cited I had changed too much, was doing the wrong stuff, and that I was doing everything and making her lazy......so I listened and validated to which she was appreciative. Actually noting that she hated me less because I listened instead of becoming defensive.
Now I am questioning myself though. How much longer to I keep living with a friendship? My therapist noted that there seems to be little or no compromise with her.
So that is it in a nutshell..working and living everyday.
Lost
Man what a bummer...
All I can say is I don't know how she cannot appreciate you as you are today.
Well I do know, it's MLC but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
You helped me such a great deal when I first got here.
Now I am questioning myself though.
Me too. Just about every day...
It takes patience to move mountains I guess.
Lost
Sorry man. I with Grit...YOU my friend helped me more than you know. So...I will try my best to pay it back buddy...
How much longer to I keep living with a friendship?
How much longer do you want to? I believe you know that YOU determine this. How much is this worth to YOU?
You have come so far. You have already MOVED mountains. You have.
MLC is a beast - it is.
Finally....."BE THE CHANGE THAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN THIS WORLD"...do you remember who said that to me.
Lost - this is NOT a time to quit. It is a time to sit still. It is a time for LOST to decide what LOST really wants.
Eric
LFW
I answered you privately but you can respond here if you choose.
I really think you need to re-evaluate where you are in this proccess.
Maybe not where you really think you are.
That leads to expectations.
And you know what expectations can do in MLC.
I think you just need more patience.
Hang in there.
I agree, you are not making the progress you think you are, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings by saying this, but she is nowhere near being done with this. She is talking and flirting with other men and pulling away from you. Better start backing WAY OFF.
I was doing everything and making her lazy
sure...you are making her lazy...not her lazy fat ass self making her lazy.
Ok, I said I would answer you here. Until she breaks withdrawal, you are in rebuilding phase but you are NOT remarried.
So I am somewhat confused exactly where she is but I KNOW that she has not broken withdrawal yet.
You are exactly when my wife is if she is still in withdrawal.
She is still blaming YOU for everything and not accepting
her own part in this.
After she breaks withdrawal, then she will go on to accept her final fears.
Sorry you are not there yet!
OP,
I agree that she is appears to have backtracked over the last few months. She has actually mentioned that her crisis was an understandable journey she need to make...in other words therapist gibberish.
So much confusion......time to get back on course of sorts...lol
Lost,
I am with Eric, and OP...sorry Lance...OP is the name I am used to.
Lost...
now is not the time to pack it in, now is the time to recall AND apply what used to work well for you.
Think of this as an abject lesson in what happens when a person becomes complacent in DBing.
I am NOT saying that you did...I am saying that you likely did. Human nature.
Look at it this way better to discover this now than later.
Think of this as the painful part of the lesson, and what you should be taking away from this lesson?
DBing is a lifestyle not a trick.
Hey Lost,
How are things going? Just Checking in.
static-
adj also statical
1. not active or moving; stationary
2. (Physics / General Physics) (of a weight, force, or pressure) acting but causing no movement
That is the current state of my life.....seems like a lot of action is going on, but very little movement. We just got back from a visit to our in-laws (been four years since we have seen them) and it went very well. Oddly (as my life usually is) it seems my wife likes parading me around in front of her friends, but behind doors she falls back.
I do agree that she has still not addressed her demons. Though she does acknowledge that I am her best friend, she still will say she doesn't know what she wants....then talks about our future. It takes time to deal with this MLC downside stuff.....but I listen and hear what she is saying.
Until next time...:)
.....but I listen and hear what she is saying.
And that is half the battle.
Glad to see you back, your patience is extraordinary.
it seems my wife likes parading me around in front of her friends, but behind doors she falls back.
IMO, she has this "ideal" husband and she wants everyone to see and think that is what she has.........
What is it going to take to make
her see and
know she already has him????????
Though she does acknowledge that I am her best friend,
What is Love? but friendship on fire..... (nickel Grace O)
Fan the flames Lost. Build an inferno......
Cheers
LFW
You have given some of the best advice on this board so I know that you know your stuff. As MHL has said he can see my sich better than I can and vice versa. Because he is detached from me and I am detached from him, just know that you can not control this.
She is still in depression/withdrawal stages, IMHO.
What will make her come forward I can not say.
You must be the rock, the stanchion, you will continue to lead her forward.
That is your mission now as the LBS.
Continue to be the beacon that brings her toward the light.
She is on a very slowwwwww journey.
All you can do is have patience.
Oh and one more thing what you think is static and not moving is her processing. It is good.
She must process to move forward.
Someone is always working behind the scenes.
Let Him do his job and you do yours.
Very well said...very well said.
MHL...A very good question?
Lost
Hey buddy. Good to see you posting again.
I had a chance to go through all your threads.
Man we have some similarities. I am so glad you found me twisting in the wind in Newcomers.
That has made all the difference.
I started a new thread "A man in full"
Stop by and would like to understand how things are going with your M.
I am starting to see her(my W) fog lifting a bit...
Keep steppin'
TG-
Will be posting on your thread shortly.
In general...a solid week. The kids started school and the wife and I teamed up on the paperwork, etc that comes with starting school. So it was pretty good.
Lots of flirting and joking going on this week between the wife and I. Can't beat that!
How a month changes things.......but things have changed.The changes are not something I would have predicted a month ago, the results though being that it is time for me to move on.
I got the "I love you, but I am not in love with you" speech again. After this much time I really feel it is time to accept that the marriage is done. It happens sometimes....people just fall out of love that is not to be rekindled. I know it is the best for both of us if I leave. As you all know seeing someone you love everyday without them feeling the same is tough. It is a path I don't want to tread any longer....I would rather be alone than live with someone who doesn't feel the same. We both deserve more than we currently have.
For those that read this....go through the steps. The end goal is worth it...refinding yourself is an incredible experience. Realize there is no greater gift than that....none. Take your time and don't rush to judgment....there will be a day that it will all make sense.
Lost....
You know where to find me if you need .....
For those that read this....go through the steps. The end goal is worth it...refinding yourself is an incredible experience. Realize there is no greater gift than that....none. Take your time and don't rush to judgment....there will be a day that it will all make sense.
wise words my friend.....
Somehow I don't think this is the end of the story.
Or the whole story.
It never is OP.....Looking into your wife's eyes and seeing the pain of hurting you is so intense. My wife said "I see that women want you and I see why they want you, but I don't. I don't know why....maybe my parents or an ex-boyfriend (this recently came to light in a therapy session), but I just don't want you". No hateful statements, but sheer pain and frustration. That isn't a way to live...for either of us.
I know the grass isn't greener....that isn't a delusion of mine. I also will acknowledge the only obvious back step I have taken is doing to much. The bills, homework with kids, cleaning, etc....that is my error. I just got into a way of doing things and can't get out. I try, but when there is a pile of dishes to be done...I do it. That is one that goes both ways though...just yesterday I asked her to do more around the house and she replied "when the mood hits me I will".
Einstein stated that insanity is when you do the same thing over and over expecting different results.....I have done it a lot and I am tired of the same results.
Sometimes we forget that standing is OUR decision...
No one person knows the future, or what it will bring for any of us. What we learn is that we have that choice for ourselves. And it does feel selfish for us to make that decision.
Lost, my friend, I wouldn't trade standing for anything I have faced in this life. What standing gave me, will be carried with me until the day I die.
One of the things I learned was that I needed to get to a healthy mental place so that I could make those hard decisions.
You are in that place... and it is a hard choice to make.
Trust yourself right now, and know that whatever happens, you will be fine....because of who you have become.
Peace to you Bro...
Lost I know that it is not the end you hoped for but as you know
and you have been a big part of helping me to know,
It is the journey that is the real reward. the gift.
I was reading through Eric's old thread today by coincidence.
And I copied this from you
Is respecting your spouses decisions the truest form of love?
Whether they hurt or feel good.....when you accept only one it is conditional, when you accept both it is unconditional.
Could you have known this amazing thing otherwise?
Me?
No way. It is the way. This thing is our path.
It the most wonderful thing to know it.
We only wish those that we love the most also get to share the joy of knowing it.
In their own time. In their time Lost.
Be well and live with your time now.
Lost my friend,
I am soo sorry. You know where and how to reach me – anytime dude – any fuc*ing time – day or night man!
And change again they could. You already know that.
I can go on and on about your integrity, your strength, you as a person….BUT you already know this too. So I would much rather say – THANK YOU.
Just a simple thank you.
I know it is the best for both of us if I leave.
We both deserve more than we currently have.
Looking into your wife's eyes and seeing the pain of hurting you is so intense.
That isn't a way to live...for either of us.
The fact that you can get to a place to say this with no anger, no resentment…IMO…from a place of peace, compassion and true love – is what many here are trying to get to. It is your response to this that really shows who Lost is.
No hateful statements, but sheer pain and frustration.
MLC – the running, the confusion, the pain….
My hope and prayer is that she will eventually take the steps needed for HER.
Personally, I am of the opinion that one day and I have no idea when, she will come to realize what she gave away.
She will come to you and ask for forgiveness
She will come to you broken
When that time comes, I have no doubt that you will continue to be YOU. Compassionate, understanding and loving her unconditionally.
I know the grass isn't greener....that isn't a delusion of mine.
I would disagree with you here and trust me dude – I hate disagreeing with you.
The grass can be greener – Because it is grass that you will work on! You will plant seeds and water them, those seeds will grow….and with what you have learned and found I have no doubt that those seeds will reap for you a wonderful life.
Stay strong my friend.
You know, I know that time.
And everyone here does or thinks they do, when the pats on the back come around and the sorry's and good try, you did good, you did your best.
You did your best.
You know?
Did you?
I just got into a way of doing things and can't get out.
We get tired of this, we get tired of standing, we get tired of wearing our armor up. And then they sling the most painful arrow:
---"I love you but I'm not in love with you."----->
So no Lost, I am not patting you on the back, you admitted to not living up to your goals.
Did you do your best, do you have enything left to burn?
You know Jack...I hope that I didn't pull you out of retirement....That would make me cry...ok...not that far..lol.
Had an interesting conversation with a friend Saturday night.I mentioned briefly that we were having problems again. Without even going into detail he blurts out..."You two spend too much time together. When I spend too much time with my wife I feel icky towards her...and you two spend almost all your time together". Now we both run businesses from home....so I am proactive as always. Today I had no work...so I went on a 5 hour hike to get out of the house. I needed that.
I have decided that I will make two last adjustments to myself.
First-I need to give up some control of house things. One way or the other she needs to start picking up some of the slack. I have already passed over the finances and she will have to pick up some other stuff....which leads to number two-Get out of the house during the week. I have been sitting around too much. I need to get out and market or hike or...maybe even go golfing.
refocus a wise man told me...thanks for the kick Jack. I needed it.
You have come too far to stop without making sure your tanks weren't completely empty Lost.
Thank yourself : )
Well...quick update for you all. She is definitely slid back....new love who is married, lying, etc. We are talking on separating....what I am getting is the other man is kicking his wife out so that my wife can move in. All this after knowing each other for 3 months and knowing it is true love.
Our kids know this time....are crushed....Looking for answers. My son was awesome yesterday...offered to get a job if the problem was about money....He was serious....had a long list of things he could offer to do for the neighbors to help out financially.
So I will be here posting again....probably should have never stopped....but there is just so much time in a day.
Catch you all later
Hey Lost,
I am sorry to hear this about your W, I know you have been at this a long time. I find myself in a similar situation in that I see my W ending one R with OM only to be looking to someone else to medicate herself on. There seems to be no logic what so ever, the only thing they are sure of is......
They do not want us or they do not want to deal with the choices they have made regarding their marriages and spouses. To face that pain is greater than trying to piece together a life with someone else that is equally messed up.
I can't remember who said it, it may have been you...LOL....but until the pain of their current situation outweighs the pain of really coming back to the marriage and doing the hard work, they are going to stay in that situation. Very much like a "drug addict".
I really understand what your son is feeling....when it looked like we were going to lose the house my daughter, started offering to babysit, go without certain things, sell some of her possessions, whatever she needed to do to help us stay in the house. That absolutely breaks my heart and yes, I get mad at my W for that. Children take on so much of their parents bullchit and baggage, no wonder this MLC stuff can be generational.
Thanks for posting, I always look forward to reading your posts.
Cheers
MLH-Thanks for posting brother
Well first...my goals posted in early October....I actually achieved. Been getting out hiking and working which has been good for me. I also passed of some house duties including the finances to her...which was even more weight of my shoulders thank god....LOL.
Hypnosis for stress and anxiety...equals...very good investment. I started the therapy prior to this (I have a constant unexplainable small shake (tremor) and a therapist thought hypno might work) and it has really been working. While I do have backslides......I am handling them much better. This morning I was greeted first thing by postings on Facebook by her boyfriend (yes...deleted him...lol)..and got pissed. As I went to the bedroom I started to calm.....did have a few words...but by the time I got to the door to leave....I was completely calm again. So what have blown up into a very huge argument (for something she didn't actually say)was prevented by the hypnosis.....SO I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT!
For me.....this time it is almost humorous. Yes I have gotten a little to involved (Saturday night I busted them trying to get together at my house while I was working)...but overall I am doing better and better every day. So detaching very well and very fast...practice makes perfect. I am getting to see both sides of the affair this time (I am friends with the BF's wife)and it is amazing how deep the lying is.....almost like they believe the lies so much that they are becoming truth. He is text book MLC by the way. His wife actually laughs since I can predict his behavior about 50% of the time....just another proof that knowledge is power.
Other than the quick thing this morning...been a good day. The wife and I had a good discussion about how the kids are this morning. Some casual texting about her job search while I was working. Then I come home to wife ignoring her texting...doing house work...and flirting with me.
Ah....the craziness of it all.
Lost
Sorry to hear of recent developments but Missher said it best. Until THEY decide to look inside ...
They are no good to anyone who is healthy.
And you know what healthy is my friend. So stay there.
It has been a few long days.....The big night being Tuesday. My wife is playing it off with the kids that her BF is just a friend. I asked her to at least keep the kids away from their relationship for 3-6 months and that turned into a new battle. She said that she will be in a relationship with him and that I won't keep my kids from her with that request....then I backslide a bunch. Happens....So I then went for a walk...a 4 hour walk. I just grabbed the dog, forgot my cell, and walked.
Here is the strange part for me....when I walked out the door I had this strong intuition feeling to see her ex-GF. So I went to a friends after walking (the feeling keep getting stronger as I walked) and went to see her. We talked...a lot...a lot of tears were shed on both sides of the couch.
Here is what I garnered from the conversation. While her ex-gf does admit she had a lot to do with the relationship, it was my wife who pursued it. What the ex-gf explained as the basic premise of the relationship for her was saving my wife. It seemed that while my wife never said anything bad (actually the opposite...defended me and talked highly all the time) she would constantly complain about how horrible it was to live here for her. This was an everyday conversation. Then as their relationship progressed...the ex-gf felt trapped in a relationship she knew was wrong, but felt like she had no choice but to help her. Eventually the ex-gf felt that she was walking on eggshells all the time trying to make my wife happy.....my wife's need for constant attention and mood swings kept making the ex-gf crazier and crazier. Eventually she just came to the "enough is enough" point. Overall the ex-gf feels bad for what she did...but it all started with just trying to help my wife. In the end though...the ex-gf realized that something inside my wife is broken and she is trying to use others to find happiness....when she really needs to find happiness inside herself.
Now here is the next twist. The BF's wife and I have slipped our conversations to secret and I told my wife that we had a fight and she isn't talking to me anymore. This of course got to the BF yesterday...lone behold....he started opening up to his wife yesterday. Saying how he feels that he has to "help" my wife get out of this horrible life she lives. How my wife constantly tells him how horrible I am and complains about everything.....maybe this can help some of you someday.
What I come away with from all this is that while my wife does admire and love me....somewhere deep inside her she holds something against me. While I realize at this point we will never know what that is, there is something there that retards her perception of me....in all manners.
So to be prepared for her leaving (I expect in the next 2 months) I started drafting up the paperwork to divide our few assets and discussed to her how I would like the custody arrangement to be. The words is that while it pissed her off....she was very impressed how thorough and fair I was. Just another sign of how MLC'ers flip flop in seconds from hating some one to being impressed.
Been a few tough days. The kids have today off from school which is good for me. I am watching the neighbor's kids (both parents work)and once it warms up....all the kids (4) and I are going out hiking. It is going to be a good day.
What I come away with from all this is that while my wife does admire and love me....
somewhere deep inside her she holds something against me.
LFW,
I agree with everything you wrote above EXCEPT the bold part.
I am not saying you are wrong but my guess, (and I am mindreading), that whatever is deep inside your wife has nothing to do with YOU!
Again I am guessing but more than likely it is something with her father.
And you are represented to her as a father figure.
And why would you want to be in a relationship with your own father?
All these things are not something that you can control or can DO anything about.
Of course I know that you already know that but I am restating it for any newbies that are reading along.
You are going great my friend.
What I come away with from all this is that while my wife does admire and love me....somewhere deep inside her she holds something against me.
Lost may I suggest that this is not to do with you BUT with her codependency.
She will always end up resenting the one who wants only to save her in the end.
Her failures are magnified by her dependency on her mate (any mate not just you)
UNTIL she sees that it is her. That it is what is inside her that must be faced.
BTW I got that^^^^ from you...
If I remember she has a pattern of this cycle am I right?
You rescued her from her first relationship?
something inside my wife is broken and she is trying to use others to find happiness....when she really needs to find happiness inside herself.
So simple and so very true. Simple is good.
What I come away with from all this is that while my wife does admire and love me....somewhere deep inside her she holds something against me. While I realize at this point we will never know what that is, there is something there that retards her perception of me....in all manners.
I agree with what Lance said. It's not just you. It's her perception of herself and her relationships with not only you but the rest of the world as well. Her relationships with these "rescuers" are self serving. This is to save her, to make her feel better. I don't think she can truly take into consideration the feelings anyone, the OP included right now. Clinging to the so called life ring is a pretty good analogy.
Lost, I'm sure it felt a little comforting to speak with the exgf and the bf's wife however from what I know about you, I have a feeling they didn't tell you anything that you didn't already know.
Please be careful, this is JMO and possibly a view from a little different angle. I don't see anything that can really be of good there Lost. (speaking to exgf and Bf's w) I know you are in a good place and have a good perspective on all of this, but this stuff can sneak up on you and drag you back.
Keep things simple....
something inside my wife is broken and she is trying to use others to find happiness....when she really needs to find happiness inside herself.
Until she sees this for herself, things will remain the same for her. You on the other hand?
Very true....the odds of me being the cause are very small. The chances of ever knowing "why" are even less? Some of me hopes she never finds out....maybe it is the rescuer in me, but I don't think it will go well if she finds the kids and I weren't the cause.
LFW -
something inside my wife is broken and she is trying to use others to find happiness....when she really needs to find happiness inside herself
This is so true about my H as well...until they look within they will no be happy. I also feel that my H still loves me..."I think the world of you" he said the other day....yet he is running away....to someone else.
We struggle to understand...we try to analyze them, we look for any information to help us to figure them out...we may never find the answers...they are locked deep inside them...and they don't even have the key...
As much as it hurts....we have to LET THEM figure it out...it may take a year...2..3...some may never figure it out...we can't do anything FOR THEM, we can't FIGURE THEM OUT an FIX THINGS the only option we really have is to be the best person we could be and to live our lives as if they are lost forever...and to do that we have to be able to let them go and forgive...and that's the hard part.
Very true....the odds of me being the cause are very small. The chances of ever knowing "why" are even less?
You already know the issues as to why this is happening... or are you asking why this had to happen to
herand
you?
That one is a difficult one. I dunno? There are so many things that happen in life for no good reason. Murder, cancer....we can sit here all day and not move an inch on that one. IF that was what you're questioning?
When I really stepped back and took a look at this painful experience and all that I went through. I realized that in one way, shape or form, every issue or problem that I had/have inside was brought to light too. Everything that I needed to work on within stared me in the face at some point in time along this shitty journey. This seemed to be the catalyst. I can't really speak for anyone else, but there have been so many things that have happened along the way that forced me to deal with my issues. It's been pretty fascniating looking at it that way.
No, we don't know how it will go if she finally sees this. Could be good, could be bad. It's all about choice.
Why can't you edit a post around here anymore??
That sucks!
Lost,
I can't imagine being in your situation and really having to detach again and your kids......they are going to need you, BIG TIME. I know you will persevere and rise above all this and one day you will look back and see that this time, this storm, this obstacle in the road is actually a building block.
This block, once you scale it, climb up on the top of it you will no longer look at it as a rough spot, or a hard time but rather a "step" on the staircase that you are climbing. This is one of the "Steps" that under normal circumstances might not be attempted because you looked at it and decided it was too big or too hard. Could be that you don't even see the step, you just start climbing, because you have to, day after day.
I can't believe I'm telling you this......I have read your story and your words so many times for understanding and inspiration.
Our spouses are similar in that they keep on "medicating" on different people. One "other person" was not enough, or as I suspect in my W's case.....she knows she is messed up, really knows it and refuses to deal with it.
I hate to say it but there are some cases out here where the best option, or should I say "what the MLCer needs"......
is divorce.
Our MLCer's are going to blame anyone and everyone they can for their problems that they create or should I say have. I really am starting to hate the term MLC, in my wife's case her problems have been there since she was about 13 or 14 years old, they just came to a crisis point at mid life. Sounds like your W's ex-GF realizes also that your W has some deep rooted issues and has to work them out.
Our W's and probably Eric's too, are going to have to be totally on their own, no strings, no attachments, no safety net. Divorce is the best thing for them to get "healthy" as an individual. Sad thing is they may have to re-marry someone else and screw up another relationship before they realize and in the worst case scenario, they may never realize and live the rest of their lives never really being happy.
Once they don't have anyone else to blame or point at they hopefully will look inward. Thing is, and you know this well.....
It all takes TIME.
Hope you have a great day with the kids.
Happy Little Friday!!!
Cheers
Lost,I know you will persevere and rise above all this and one day you will look back and see that this time, this storm, this obstacle in the road is actually a building block.
That's a great way to put it! A roadblock that brings you to a halt. Or a building block that moves you ahead. Your choice will make either one of these true.
Wow Lost,
Sorry to see you back.
Nothing like reminders, but we all need them from time to time.
Remember, it is up to you how long you stay on the coaster...
I too know the feeling of wanting them not to realize the reality of their situation...
It is scary to see what they are going to have to face, and you are right, it is part of the fixer in us...
Take care of you and the kids and let your W take care of herself, in whatever way she needs to...
(((hugs)))
Some of me hopes she never finds out....maybe it is the rescuer in me, but I don't think it will go well if she finds the kids and I weren't the cause.
Every relationship she has will be touched by this until she does figure it out.
The white knight can help the princess back to the castle, but only after SHE kills the dragon.
Lost,
I’m sooo sorry to hear that your sitch has taken another turn. My heart goes out to you.
then I backslide a bunch. Happens.
Yes it does. I may be making excuses here BUT I like to call it “being human” as opposed to backsliding. But hey, you know how hard headed I am (no responses to this please). :
Hugs dude!
somewhere deep inside her she holds something against me.
All of us can only guess about what she is holding against you but I would agree with Lance that….
Again I am guessing but more than likely it is something with her father.
And you are represented to her as a father figure.
This ^^^ is probably what it is.
At the end of the day though, none of what is going on insider of her matters. What matters is how you respond, how you deal with it, and how you live your life.
God Bless,
Eric
Everything that I needed to work on within stared me in the face at some point in time along this shitty journey. This seemed to be the catalyst.
Amen.
Everything that makes us grow is due to adversity I think.
Think about how you learned anything.
You can't learn to ride a bike until you fall off right?
This thing that hs happened to all of us is a blessed tragedy.
Everything that makes us grow is due to adversity I think.
Think about how you learned anything.
You can't learn to ride a bike until you fall off right?
This thing that hs happened to all of us is a blessed tragedy.
Couldn't have said it any better. Some of what we face is directly tied to this crisis, some of it indirectly, but SO much of what has happened indeed HAD to happen in order to learn and grow.
What we don't learn, we will be face again until we do.
Sorry
*edit*
What we don't learn, we will face again until we do.
there... I'll make my own damn edit feature
Rough day...did it to myself actually. Hiking with four kids turned into a very torturous experience. My wife joined us...and it turned into what I felt was a texting session with her BF (she felt it wasn't that bad and I should have asked her to stop). Add to that...the boys didn't want to hike....ran down a different trail than the one we were hiking. So I had to gather them up and make them catch up. This wasn't fun because on of the boys (11) basically threw a hussy fit as we tried to catch up to the girls and whined non-stop as we hiked up. Then on the way down continually messed with his sister.....then I lost it.
tomorrow is another day....definitely a lesson learned.
LFW - We all loose it once in a while....don't forget that we are under tremendous pressure these days....don't beat yourself up over it...as you said...tomorrow is another day
Hoping today is a better day!
Peace
PEI
Interesting day...Started out by discussing my assets spreadsheet, custody arrangement, etc...boy am I screwed...LOL...I will figure the money thing out, but it will be interesting. Then I told my wife that I officially do not want her BF on my property and I will have him arrested for trespassing. That started quite the tirade....so my thinking is that my house had become their quick hideaway spot.
I was talking with the BF's wife....she is not playing around or DB'ing. She is actually not going to even try to save the marriage...instead she is going to rip him in court. So I reminded her of their cell phone bill from last month and to get copies (my wife and BF spent over 1100 minutes talking in basically secret). So she made a copy and decided to get some older bills for reference. Guess what...surprise....they have been talking on the phone since June and the hours talked have been very high since July. I didn't even know about him as a friend to the end of August.....so things have been going on much longer than we were being told.
The more we open our eyes....the more the truth reveals itself.
On the flip side..worked all day and now planning a night out....SWEET!
Yes...I am officially done DB'ing...but I will still hang around. I like you all TOOOOOO much.
Lost,
: )
If it makes you feel better to say that you're done, then you're done.
But I am going to suggest that, that day has not quite happened yet. And when it does come around, maybe I should say 'if', you'll have one of the hardest choices you'll ever make.
I'm pretty sure you can stick around, and I hope that you do. Go
EDIT -
I'm pretty sure you can stick around, and I hope that you do. Go
see the Go? right there at the end...it shouldn't be there. pretend you did not see it, ok?
These are not the droids you are looking for.
Sorry
*edit*
What we don't learn, we will face again until we do.
there... I'll make my own damn edit feature
Start using the preview button!
Jack,
I stopped for dinner...but I realized I misspoke. I am done with the marriage....it is that time. I will continue to improve myself and stick to the DB basics though. I have learned to much and grown so much more that it would be a waste to stop now.
So Jack...How are you?
Lost,
I am done with the marriage....it is that time
Only you know when you are done and far be it for me to tell you otherwise. IMO, you have done more than most of us could ever have. Many of us have learned from watching you.
For me personally, you were an inspiration and someone who I will forever be grateful for knowing you.
My hope and prayer for you is that all of your dreams come true. May God bless you in whatever it is that you decide to do.
I leave you with this....
That door that you are closing right now, can be reopened - and as you know YOU get decide if it ever opens again.
God Bless you my friend and hopefully we can connect when I get my as* down to see our mutual friend, whom I call Lord of the Rings
Eric
God Bless you my friend and hopefully we can connect when I get my as* down to see our mutual friend, whom I call Lord of the Rings
The castle is open and ready to receive guests!!
Lost,
I write this not so much to you but to those who lurk, or stop by, never register, whoever...there are so many more reading these words than we realize.
We all come here looking to save our marriages.....EVERYONE, so that tells me that most people take that very first emotional step in rising above the crap that their spouses may be hurling at them, to try to save their marriages and families.
Those that stick with find that over TIME, DBing is about saving yourself in order to save your marriage. If you don't fix yourself and grow as an individual how can you be a partner in a committed, equally yoked marriage?
This journey all becomes something far different from what we think is when we start. When you have come far enough in your journey and stop for a rest and you look back over your shoulder to see how far you've come you realize how much you have grown.
Funny thing is when you turn back around at this point and start moving on your journey again(BTW the journey is never over) the really big surprise hits you, it did for me recently.......
All this time you were traveling to a different destination than you originally intended. All this time you had your eyes fixed on this destination and you were making steps towards it, or so you thought.......
Mach, said this to me not too long ago......
I was on a trip from NY to LA and thought I was further along than I actually was.....
Well after stopping for a rest and getting started on the journey again, I now realize I am not even going to LA, I'm going somewhere else, not sure of the final destination but the scenery is getting better and better along the way.
Lost I hope the scenery is getting better, the road may be bumpy right now but when you look around I am sure you will like what you see.
Cheers
~C
Been a few good days for me
Got out Friday night......it was relaxed and fun. When I got home....I just couldn't sleep. I kept going over my behavior of late....and thinking of what had worked for ME before. Eventually the questions was answered.
I made the choice to release the control....emotionally wish her well and let it be. I am just tired of the meanness and bitterness I was feeling from time to time. If these are the last few weeks we will be together as a family...I won't let them be negative.
So while this will be beyond counter-intuitive....I started to support my wife's actions. Her Bf and her went to a bowling tournament...and then I just told them to spend the evening together as I dealt with a sleep over (probably better in the end since she doesn't deal with multiple children well) that I was hosting so some of our friends could have a date night. The kids behaved...I didn't have to deal with her stress....and enjoyed a nice glass of red wine.
good weekend
Lost
Man I know you will always get to the right answer.
Emotions are spontaneous and so we can't control them.
I had my own eyes opened recently as to just how convoluted my W is.
You said to me one time that you thought she had to deal with her illness before she could be healthy enough to enter back into the relationship.
I only know that until she decides that her actions have consequences and that she is not a victim of anyone BUT her own choices....
THEN there is NO chance of ever having a healthy relationship.
I am not a health professional and neither are you so I don't know what's wrong but I find myself enmeshed in figuring it out.
There are no answers for us there Lost.
Only our own. Only what we choose.
We have to let THAT part of it go.
It has nothing to do with what we chose or didn't choose.
It is their dysfunction. Their illness if you can call it that.
We have to accept the possibility that they may never deal with it.
Even if it appears they truly desire to, or it appears to us that they want to.
I am digging this stuff myself right now.
Can you tell?
TG-It does make you think! The statistics point clearly to the fact that it is more of a mental issue than emotional one. I feel the true weight of it will be explained in the future.
Or maybe it is we live in a disposable society from cars to marriages. Once it stops feeling perfect it is time for a new one.
Interesting day....the OM's wife has got her new apartment December 1st....so I have about three more weeks I figure with my wife in the house. I asked her....she said there needs to be a few days for the emotional stress to reduce and then she will move down. I think she is gone the night the om's wife moves out...maybe not moved....but gone.
The strange thing this time.....is that I know once she leaves I can not let her back. I won't say that I never will, but I know that my friends, family, and children will never see her the same. Her dad keeps wanting me to talk to him about it...he feels bad for me. He was so impressed that I stood through the first affair....and now feels horrible that his daughter is doing this. He will still love her....but I also know that bad talk about me will never be accepted in his house.....Dang good guy.
And so are you my friend.
Lost,
Ditto what Grit said...you really are special dude!
Or maybe it is we live in a disposable society from cars to marriages. Once it stops feeling perfect it is time for a new one.
Funny, this quote reminded me of what I have been feeling lately.
Have you realized just how special YOU and many on these boards are? I was thinking about it and it really hit home the other day. Wow, we are all special. I mean who the hell in today's society would deal with this? How many people can stand up and take ownership of there own issues, how many people can truly let someone go? My conclusion - ONLY very SPECIAL people. Only people with HUGE hearts. Only people that can love deeply.
Your a hell of a person Lost. Your future is what you will make of it. Your a hell of dad and personally, your an inspiration to may.
God Bless,
Eric
LFW,
I agree with Eric and Grit, you are a stand up kind of guy. You truly do inspire many.
So much happened yesterday.....A good days work (yeah), an incredible therapy session, and then some information that should be odd, but for some reason isn't.
For the work....First I am back to having four part time jobs. What had been my most recent job acquisition (assembling high end measuring devices-piece work)has turned a little more substantial for the time being. They like my work ethic so decided to expand my role a little....so I have begun making the tables also for the measuring devices I assemble. Then surprise...surprise...I made two tables by myself in the same time it usually takes for two guys to make one. Let's say the owner was beyond impressed.
Information- I was texting with the OM's wife yesterday...she is doing an awesome job DB'ing by the way. Her husband has been cuddling, confiding, and crying on her shoulder a lot....he seems very torn by his decision. Then yesterday just was the icing....He told his wife that he wants her to contact him...text or call...during the day during the week. Hmmmm....already lining up an affair with his wife? I haven't suggested she go dark yet. As she and I have changed our ways from confrontation to being their friends...he has been becoming more and more emotional and confiding in her. I will have to observe this quietly for now.....but in my opinion it is way to early for cake eating...thoughts?
Therapy-Wow....just wow. First we discussed what has been happening. The usually updating type stuff and then we discussed how I was handling it. One of the reason I go to therapy is to address this slight shake I have all the time....there has never been a diagnosis. So my therapist finally came up with one after three months of addressing this issue. What he feels is that I have two personalities. My usual self who is very confident, cool, and collected....or what I have become. Then I have another buried personality in my subconscious. He refers to this one as the "little boy" because that is when this personality was created. The little boy lives with the mind set that "I am not good enough"....long story short is he represents (was created) by the treatment of many people in my childhood.
So what happens is when I start shaking....there is a battle in my subconscious between my usual self (control) and the boy (not good enough) that is manifested by the shaking (manifested much worse and more often than in normal people). The two sides of my deep mind fight in that the little boy causes me to shake because I am not good enough while my current mind knows I am.
So that is where the hypnosis comes in. It seems that because of the placement of the little boy in my deep subconscious...It is impossible for me to consciously control the shaking. So we are working on making my deep mental world change...pretty cool stuff that is working.
The interesting thing we hit right at the end...was part of a conference my therapist participated in this weekend. It was discovered by a therapist (Virginia something) and her understudy (Laurie Dodson SP?) is that there is more to picking out your spouse than just personality and looks. What they discovered over the last 60 years is that we look for one trait in particular in our spouse.....a person who can help us deal with our childhood wounds. So for me I was looking for some one that would never "reject me for not being good enough"....vice versa my wife's childhood drama would be her father leaving her....so she was looking for a man who would never "abandon" her. The twist that the therapist added for my wife is that the very childhood crisis she subconsciously wanted me to counter...also causes her to run. In short, basically abandon the relationship before she gets abandoned.
So I put this to the test....thought about it a little. My wife's dad left the marriage when she was 11. Then the boy she had her first sexual experience with broke up with her the day after said experience. Since that time.....she broke up first in every single relationship....EVERY SINGLE ONE!
Now I add more...recently my wife had a therapy session where they discussed if she had ever truly loved at all. She came home questioning that. My conclusion....she hasn't! Also it is a testament to how good our relationship was in that she actually has been around as long as she has.....this should have started many years ago. See, I am a firm believer that there is three stages of love....The lust stage, enough said and lasts from 6-18 months......the second based on passion, common goals, etc....New/young love and generally runs 5-8 years (seven year itch). The third stage is true love...in that you love your partner for their differences, their belief in values, etc....you love them for who they are and not as you perceive them.
So for my wife and probably other mid-life crisis spouses, she had hit this third stage. To move to true love. It seems IMHO that this step is where a lot of marriages end nowadays.....we as a society cannot except our spouses for who they are. Instead of seeing our spouses peculiarities as special...we have been trained to see them as weaknesses in our marriages. So in our disposable society it is easier to start over than work through it. Or with my wife, run before I feel the same and decide to run on her (this is subconscious by the way....not a conscious thought pattern).
I also applied this mentality to another relationship I am very intimate with. My neighbors are very interesting and I love them both dearly, but I applied this to their marriage. The husband's father left when he was around 12...leaving a wife and three boys. He recalls how his mom worked all the time and how the three of them had to take care of themselves. She vice versely had a loving father who didn't appear to work "hard" and grew up wanting things. Guess what...today she is very happy taking care of the house, family, and being a wife (not bad by the way) and he works very hard to support his family....Hmmm...theory in action don't you think since they have found in each other a solution to their childhood issues.
I would like you to think about what I uncovered above..not because I think it can save your marriage...LOL. More because I want you to think about how this may affect relationships and love down the road. What was your childhood wound? Was it bad enough to affect your actions today or just enough that you are aware of it occasionally? Do the comparison to a relationship that you are familiar with....does it apply?
Much like hiding something in the open...sometimes the answers are so straight forward that we overlook them.
Hmmmm
It is going to take a little thinking through this one.
Very interesting stuff Lost.
My parents were separated when I was 9 through the age of 14.
Leaving me and my sis two years younger than I so she was 7 when Dad hit the road.
Guess what? sis is in MLC, full blown replay, and guess how old her daughter is right now?
Yup 7.
I will have to see what I was missing and what my trauma was.
Cause there is something there...
I am putting on my miner hat with the flashlight in the front and going a diggin I guess.
As she and I have changed our ways from confrontation to being their friends...he has been becoming more and more emotional and confiding in her. I will have to observe this quietly for now.....but in my opinion it is way to early for cake eating...thoughts?
The appetite for cake always seemed the strongest in the early stages. JMO
Lost, it sounds like you're a really busy man these days. Why burden yourself with unanswerable questions? Is it cake eating? Who know's ? The only one who may possibly know that answer is the OM, who to me sounds like a lost, confused, crying mess right now. You really think he even knows?
Is this question worth your time, focus and energy?
Again, this is only an opinion but perhaps it may be wise to really examine your R with OM's wife and no, I'm not refering to the romantic kind of R of any kind. Just the interactions you have with her in general.
What do they (interactions) do for you? Comfort perhaps? Where are your thoughts and focus after you have them. Only a guess, but they're probably on OM and you're wife right? I mean how could they not be?
What would happen if your wife found out? How do you think she would feel? Depending upon what goes down with OM and his wife there may be a chance yours finds out about this.
Hopefully you're not offended by this. I'm here to tell you man, if you have any interest at all in a reconcilliation in the end this isn't going to help.
Right now though, I'm more concerned with how this is really affecting you. Take a few steps back and trying examining it from a little different angle, please.
LFW,
I'll be doing the same as Grit.
Thanks for posting. I knew it was connected just never thought much about how, until now.
Thanks
Lost,
I'm not trying to bust your chops about this. You're probably already aware of this but even if the OM does go back to his wife, your wife still has to work through her issues and make a choice to come back to you.
Theres a lot of good stuff further down in your post. Don't let these interactions with OM's wife take your focus and energy away from what you need to do.
Trapt-Any day...you and I have been on here awhile. I am aware that I am feeding some negative stuff off of her, but our relationship is more DB'ing training by voice. She can't access the site from work and the husband won't give her a minute on the computer at home.
Oddly...the OM's wife and I were being manipulated together. It took awhile for us to catch on, but we eventually did. We were just two couples hanging out....then manipulation started. So we had a friendship prior to this....and our spouses know we talk. I really think it was part of their plan to swap us in the end to diminish their guilt.
I know my wife has to go...it is hard, but it is best for all of us including my wife. It sucks to say that, but it is the truth.
Was notified today that she was having serious second thoughts about everything yesterday....today was told she is moving out december 6th.....Oh MLC...lol
How are holding up today Lost?
And to answer your question.
I am doing very good, thank you for asking earlier, didn't mean to ignore it. : )
Hey Lost,
Some very interesting stuff to think about that you have been sharing.
Thanks for making my brain spin more than it already does
Hope you are doing well.
Jack-Excellent to hear
Been a decent day Cat.....doing okay.
Well she leaves tomorrow. We had a blow out which I have been informed me physically assaulting her. That is what the OM told his wife as he threw her through a door......But the truth keeps revealing itself more and more. This time more people who are aware of her activities are banding together to share the truth with me....they are actually pursuing me because in the end they are realizing that I am a good guy with a seriously messed up wife....and yes I do feel like I have wasted the last three years of my life when I could have moved on....Here is the current list of confirmed affairs as of today;
OM#1-Guy who pursued him...at a minimum there was making out in a parking lot...more than likely more since he did major repairs to her car for free (intimacy)
OW#2-She is chronicled throughout my posts (sexual)
OW#3-It seems my wife got it on with her one night after ow#3 was babysitting for us...During affair with 0w#2 (intimacy)
OM#4-Her friend...today it was confirmed there was much more going on than friendship....he was told we were just roommates...then ended it when he found out otherwise (sexual)
OW#5-A few night/day fling with a married woman (sexual)
OM#6-a single college guy...used her one night...then blew her off (sexual)
om#6-The current BF (sexual)
Most of the people who saw my wife outside the house without me believe that there was more....just couldn't confirm it.
So while I have gained on myself....the games were played outside as she shopped. It is a catch-22 because I do wish I had moved on years ago....by now I might have found some one who loves me. Do take this with a grain of salt....as most people realize that my wife has serious issues beyond just MLC stuff.....the common term is that she is seriously f@cked up.
I can't wait for tomorrow night and the weekend.....it is already filled with fun stuff for the kids and I....time to start a new beginning.
While finding out may be useful for your legal reasons...
There were reasons this hadn't been revealed until now.
Those three years you speak of...
Who were you then ?
Would you have been able to process any of this the way you did recently....then ?
I have followed you through your trials here, and remember reading your first posts....
You are in no way the same person that came here, so to say it was a "waste" would be an insult to those who hold you in high regard....
Lost, there are few I have on my "watch" list....and you are one of them.
The way YOU have carried yourself throughout this entire ordeal is to be commended.
Lost defines Lost now....
And peace will find you my friend....
You know where I am and how to find me, and it would be an honor to grab a beer one day with you....
Lost,
Ditto to what Mach said.
You will find someone who is able to love you as you so deserve to be loved...
When the time is right. Just like this whole process, it happens when it is supposed to.
Peace, hugs, and Happy Thanksgiving. I am proud to "know" you.
Mach,
You are right as always....I was angry and frustrated....so venting was a much better to solution to a situation with no remedy.
I am not the man who started this journey by no means....could I have handled all this in the past? Definitely not.....and maybe I am finding all this stuff out now is a reflection of what I have achieved. One common theme out of the people who have shared the truth (whether they were negatively involved or not) is that they felt lied to by her and that I in no way deserved her treatment of me. To see that my actions were so powerful that it affected these people.....is statement enough in what I achieved.
So today I close the chapter on the past in my life and start a new one. It will surely hold many new things, but it will be strange new world for me to investigate.
LFW
The only thing I can think of right now is your journey is still not over and you have not seen the last of your wife.
Even when we say we are done, we are not.
Even when we get divorced, there is more to come.
So we must learn to deal with these bumps in the road, which sometimes cause huge holes in the vehicle that we are riding in.
I know that you are up to the task.
You have learned much wisdom and you will carry that forward with you, down the road!
Lost
This is very difficult for me.
I know that my W suffers from the same kind of trauma/crisis.
It is more than MLC.
Whatever the reason for it, they have to become self aware to have any kind of shot at a healthy life.
Until that happens. There is no use in thinking that there is hope for a M to really work.
Their choices are based in a coping mechanism they learned when the trauma occurred in their childhood. When they were a victim.
Not an excuse, just what is.
It was not a waste for you. I can say that becuase I am one of those you helped.
AND
You have helped your W, your kids, and everyone who was witness to your courage, integrity and strength.
I believe you have given the best of yourself to your W without condition.
That is the gift you gave her.
And yourself.
I believe it would not have mattered had you known of all this other stuff ...
You would still be the man you are.
You would still make the choices you made because you made them from your core and you stood for what you believed.
Think back when you were in the battle.
You were not attached to outcomes only you living your choices.
Don't rewrite the testament to that.
You are defined by those choices and they are the best part of you.
Where does this man go from here?
He goes up....definitely up!
^^^ wishing I had a like button
Chronicles of MLC-Crazy stories from the beyond
Basically yesterday was a good day...heard little from my wife which is good and the kids seem to be adjusting to mommy not being home rather quickly and very well (no fighting, back talking, etc...so a good kid day...LOL). So the only real thing of interest was from the OM's wife....and I have to share because this crud is so out there it is actually funny.
After or traditional good morning text the OM's wife started complaining that her fridge was completely empty and she had no coffee. So I told her to come over and grab some coffee...already brewed...so she did. While we were chatting about the day before the OM starts texting her. It appears that my wife and him had no money for gas and groceries (to fill in the blank...the OM's wife offered to help out with extra cash when she had some as long as he kept her on his health insurance...it is her choice). So she runs home to check the accounts to see if she has enough money to buy her groceries and give him some extra. So she pulls up the account....sees that the OM had treated my wife to a night out on Thanksgiving. Therefore using his extra cash. Leaving him very little for groceries and gas for the week for him and his two kids (have to suppose my wife also). So the OM and his wife proceed for the next few hours to argue why she should/shouldn't give him extra money. Of course she was ticked off because she knew they had food when she left Wednesday, had no food of her own, and add to that blowing money on a night out with my wife. So they fight through it.....and end with the fact he wasted money that should have gone to groceries...so she wasn't giving him any extra (which she didn't have). He then calls 30 minutes later and asks her..."Do I have money to go bowling tomorrow?".
I mean how unreal does this MLC really make people. Any grown adult should know that if they blow money (good marriage or not) they shouldn't be asking for more.
Have a good day all....I have some cleaning to do.
So today I close the chapter on the past in my life and start a new one. It will surely hold many new things, but it will be strange new world for me to investigate.
Sorry, I have been MIA on the boards lately.....this really resonated with me Lost. It is strange and different but it is good......good for you and otherthan your kids it is the only thing that matters. Your story as mine and anyone elses is unwritten. We do not know what may come next.
I truly hope that my STBXW will figure out her problems for herself. Your wife too needs to figure it all out on her own.....could be it is starting now. I am not telling you to hold out for her but rather have compassion for her, it is not hard......the feelings are right there below the srface.
Cheers
Ever have one of those life perspective reality check events happen in your life? Things like hitting black ice on the highway while driving 70.....a child disappearing in the mall....events that really make you say....have I been living the life I want....am I happy....am I loved...will I be missed....all in a flash of a second. Well I had one last night
As most of you know....I work four different jobs trying vainly to keep a roof over my head. One job is that I am a bouncer...which for the most part is a very boring job. Occasionally I break up a fight....toss somebody out...etc, but for the most part just sit and watch people all night.
Well last night wasn't boring.....more perspective changing. Last night I was asked by a female patron to be escorted to her car. Her boyfriend was threatening her and she wanted to leave. So I did my job and escorted her from the bar with the BF walking behind me...pleasantly reminding me repeatedly what he was going to do to me. As she walked out the front door (at the end of a hallway) I turned around in front of the door to slow him down so she could get to his car. He told me to get out of the way....then pulled a knife....just him and me in this small hallway and in a blink of an eye....he tried to stab me. I partially blocked his swing (his hand hit me and the knife got caught up in my shirt) and proceeded to subdue him....and while it was handled and I wasn't hurt, I came within a half inch of getting it.
Then to help remind how really close to getting it I was....as he was arrested, the police officers pulled his records and discovered he had been released from jail 5 months ago....for murder. This guy wasn't just some wanton knife puller....he had done this one before.
One of those events that really made me think about what I have been doing with my life!!
Lost,
Well, that's a little more excitement than I want to encounter! Thank God you're OK. Someone else better be thanking God for you, too. You realize you saved that woman's life last night, don't you? I hope she realizes that too, and stays away from the guy. Sounds like there will be a forced separation at least. They'd better think twice about letting him go again.
Yep, I agree that this incidence could be a real perspective changer.
Well after a pleasurable 8 days with my kids alone....today I got the pleasure to watch my family leave to go spend the weekend with the OM and his family.
At least I have a lot of work to catch up....an infected leg to heal....and late work...so my mind should be busy.
Well been awhile. The kids spent the weekend at my wife's new house. There was a few minor complaints about their behavior (to much energy, sneaking food, waking up too early), but they are 8 and 11. The hard part for me......my daughters attitude was really bad when she got back and my son started playing with his face again (playing with his face is like a nervous habit that disappeared when she left)...but we are 5 days past return and my daughters attitude is gone and my son has stopped playing with his face.....So I am watching this closely. It will be interesting to see if there is a correlation between this behavior and being around their mom.
Overall I am doing good....things seem to be much smoother flowing without her in the house which is nice. Every now and then I have a miss her day...this being one. I will get through it, but some days it's tough to be a single parent.
As for my wife....she calls occasionally. When the OM isn't around she mentions how she misses the kids and I. I have come to learn they hide their interactions with their spouses from one another....either way....Karma is at play big time. Like they say...one can never trust a cheater...and the OM is proving that to the letter.
Lost,
Sorry today is one fo those days for you.
With my boys even at 11 and 6, I told them mom and I might have seperate rules between our houses, but I expected them to follow my rules when they were in my house, which included the attitude.
PS - you can trust a cheater to...cheat.
When, if they stop cheating?
Ahhh that up to you as to what you do, trust and verify? Never as in never trust them, or give trust freely and without any boundaries.
Personally? I went with the trust but verify.
Jack,
How are you? I think it is colder today down here in the south than up in the northland!
Had a busy weekend....booked a last minute DJ gig, parade with the kids, cleaning, and started Christmas decorating. My wife did come up to help pick out a tree....which was weird, but also important to the kids and her.
Right now my therapist and I are investigating the theory that my wife has long term emotionally/mentally abused the kids and I. I don't believe this is intentional....so there is no resentment or anger towards her. More that her treatment of us has caused issues. The thing that started this was my shaking. It is something I have had for years, but has become drastically worse over the last 5 years or so. To the point (even prior affairs) that I would visibly shake (hugs, kissing, dancing etc...whenever there was an intimate moment) when I was close to my wife.
As it is a DB no-no.....this shaking was never tested during the first affair. This time....I decided I was in a mental/emotional place to move on a little bit further. So I have...and there was very little/no shaking involved. My therapist was shocked by this since he believed it was purely a nervous reaction to all sorts of situations. The truth now unfolding (and understand under normal DB this could not be uncovered)is that the shaking is a physical response to her. Just yesterday when she came over to do the tree....I started shaking after a week of no shaking at all. The shaking continued for hours after she left.
So we have investigated emotional/mental abusive relationships...and mine fits the bill perfectly. We only look pre-affairs since that time is more important and less biased by outside influence. Now we are applying the same theory to the children...and more specifically my son. Time will tell if the theory is correct, but it does explain a lot.
So times are interesting...being a single parent a majority of the time (I am in a 12 day straight period of taking care of the kids) is tough, but oh so rewarding. Definitely something I enjoy.
Some interesting days...LOL. Monday school was closed due to snow....so I not only had my kids, but two of the neighbors children. It was very uneventful and I guess the big part for me....is that I am to the point were other parents will trust me with their kids all day. I think that is a pretty big deal for a guy. Most guys would be a mess...I handled it all day with out a single fight or tear shed....very pleased.
Tuesday was of more interest. My daughter has been asking for a desk for months. So out of the blue my wife starts sending me pictures of a beat up old desk the OM found. I had no problem with him picking it up, but it wasn't a real desk and had no storage. So we discussed it and I went to look at a desk I had seen before. So I tried texting her...etc. Turned into a stressful situation.
So today she actually apologized...unbelievable for an MLC'er. I guess somehow I got wrapped up in an ongoing "issue" between her and the OM. It seems he talks with his wife much more than my wife realized. Then he brings home his wife's thoughts and comments back to my wife.....of course the DB'ing guy got the brunt of it. It is all good though.
Decorated the x-mas tree with the kids last night and today took them Christmas shopping for their mother. That was almost fun...well as fun as shopping with an 8 and 11 year old can be.
Hi LFW - just wanted to catch up with your tread and say hello. You seem to be doing extremely well...I do understand the "missing the spouse days"...also have those once in a while...but in general moving forward...same as you.
I am to the point were other parents will trust me with their kids all day. I think that is a pretty big deal for a guy
....so do I as an overprotective mom lol....that speaks volumes about you
Take care
mila
Merry Christmas LFW!
Peace
PEI
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.-D.H. Lawrence
Well old friends...I have decided today would be a good day to update you all. Ironically it is also the 100th day of my separation....and the world has not ended. To the contrary, I seem to be prospering. When she left it felt as if a black cloud had been lifted from my life....bad karma...maybe, but there has definitely been a positive change. My land surveying business has picked up substantially as well as my other side jobs....so I have been a very busy bee. GAL'ing has been difficult because of this, but that is just how the river of life flows.
Currently their mom take's the kids every other weekend. The general consensus on this being very positive, but the battles to get them into regular routine upon return has not been a pleasurable experience. Overall the kids are well....actually maybe less emotionally affected than planned. Parents and family have noted the kids seem to be "So what" about their mother's disappearance. While shocking to them, I do remind them that this is not the first time she has disappeared and as my therapist puts it....The go to parent role has switched from mommy to daddy.
As for my wife....she now lives with her boyfriend (already cheating on her), his three kids, daughter's baby, and daughter's boyfriend. There is reports of stealing, etc and frequent fighting.....I guess the grass was greener. We don't talk often and I prefer that...makes life much easier.
LFW
Good to hear from you my friend.
A thought for you.
It sounds like she surrounds herself in chaos.
My W did the same thing.
I think it is comfortable for them ironically because it is how they feel about themselves.
Maybe the more chaos the more they feel they are not as bad.
Chaos and disharmony is how they feel inside so why would they not live that outwardly and attract that to them.
Just a thought.
I know this...
... it has nothing to do with us and if and until they choose differently we would be doing ouselves and our family a grave diservice to let that into our lives again.
Be well buddy.
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.-D.H. Lawrence
This is a kick @ss quote!!
Lost, you sound great!! I am happy to hear that things are looking up. You are correct, life does not come to an end after this.
It begins once again.
Glad you are thriving!! Funny how things just fall into place sometimes. You must be living right.
Keep going with that.
Currently their mom take's the kids every other weekend. The general consensus on this being very positive, but the battles to get them into regular routine upon return has not been a pleasurable experience.
This is very normal. It will usually take a day or two for them to get back on track at home. I notice it with mine and others have said the same thing as well.
As for my wife....she now lives with her boyfriend (already cheating on her), his three kids, daughter's baby, and daughter's boyfriend. There is reports of stealing, etc and frequent fighting.....I guess the grass was greener. We don't talk often and I prefer that...makes life much easier.
Wow, seems like this would get old real fast. Who know's?? Just don't look for it or count on it. I am a firm believer that we get back what we put out there so the chaos and drama make perfect sense.
Very nice to hear from ya! Stay positive and keep doing what you're doing.
Have a great weekend!
LFW,
I just wanted to say that your timeline for LBS' is a wonderful resource. Thank you for putting it together and for sharing !
Just sayin....great weekend. Great past few months on many levels.
[/i]Often people attempt to live their lives backwards; they try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want, so they will be happier. The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then do what you need to do, in order to have what you want. ~Margaret Young[i]
I am finding that the more time I spend in the moment....instead of thinking of the moment....makes life better.
Had an interesting conversation with my wife Friday...She was commenting about this or that in her life and I actually found it quite humorous. In her usual fashion, everything was centered around her.
The reason I bring that up....is because one thing I know about myself is that I am not self centered. The very thought of being so self centered is repulsive to me. I am not saying that it is wrong to be self aware, but instead that it is wrong to project everything in life as it surrounds being centered on you. Everything isn't always about us....to the contrary, once one opens their eyes it becomes apparent that very little in life has to do purely with us. That we are all just little sands in a stream.....part of something bigger, yet so small in reality.
once one opens their eyes it becomes apparent that very little in life has to do purely with us. That we are all just little sands in a stream.....part of something bigger, yet so small in reality.
I love this
... so glad to see you are doing so well!
Peace
PEI
New thread yeah?
They'll be like, hey Jack why is MLC forum running posts past 100?
And I'll be like, cause I let them self moderate that. : )