I've been lurking on this site for a few months now, but it is time to post because I need support.
My brief sitch: I got the ILYBNILWY bomb on 8/19. Wife said she had felt so one for so long that she couldn't take it anymore. Also said that she wasn't sure if she wanted to be married anymore. She felt like she needed to live the single life and didn't want to do anything to hurt me. She was still living on the house for the first couple of weeks bu then moved out. All this time she was insistant that I move out. I wouldn't because i felt S7 and S9 needed stability which she couldn't provide since she has been largely absent from their activities for some time. Things had gotten steadily worse.
I've done a pretty good job (I think) of DBing. I don't initiate contact, I've looked into myself and made changes to myself for me, I've made a bunch of other small changes. She has noticed and feels that it is proof that she is doing the right thing by leavin. Or feels that it proves that I didn't love her because I didn't make the changes earlier.
Anyway, after 2 months if things getting worse she starts to think that I've contacted a lawyer then decides she is going to move back into the house. She's been sortof back for a week now. Some days there is little contact and others things are almost like before. Last night was one of those nights. We were watching a movie as a family and she asked if someone would rub her feet. It's something I used to do a slot in the beginning of our relationship. Maybe I was backsliding but I said I would like to. I meant it, I really do enjoy doing it.
Today is back to little contact. She missed S9's baseball game today to go to a dance event and picnic with her "new" friends. he has a lot of anger toward her and I think part of the reason she moved back was because she has been having a tough time being away from the kids and knowing that theybare angry at her for leaving.
I don't get sucked into talking about the R. It hurts when she continues to talk about our not being together in the future and how the kids will be ok, but I try not to let it show. I've been keeping as much a PMA as possible but it is tough with her in the house now.
I want this to work out and am willing to stand for as long as I can. Your support and encouragement would be helpful.
Cyclone,
Hi! You've come to the right place, the support is fantastic, and someone is usually here to help.
You sound as though you have a rough idea about what is going on, you plan on hanging on in the house for the sake of the children, which is the best thing you can do. You are doing very well.
It's still very painful, regardless of how well you have pulled things together. It's only going to get worse before it's gets better, so have you begun you "GAL" list? What sort of things would you like to do while your wife is re-living her teen years?
Oh, GAL isn't just for adults, maybe a group or hobbie that you and your two boys can join that will keep all three of you too busy to realize your wife is off in a different direction.... I see S9 plays baseball, but what about the winter months? Is there a YMCA near by where you can swim or play away from the house? Just a thought..... the busier you are with your own life, the easier it is to ignore the rollercoaster that will become the pink elephant in the room.
Next, what have you done to protect yourself financially? It's time to consider if she does have MLC, her next step will be to begin spending, WILDLY! Time to consider separate accounts and credit cards.... if it's there, she will spend it.
Keep the chin up, you will be feeling as though you are being put through the wringer.... with each twist, you'll grow stronger, and so will your boys...
Keep coming back..... There are some really great folks here, working their way through the same things you are. You aren't alone.
Blessings
Hello and welcome to the community. Can you give us a little more details. Do you have children? What are the ages of you & your W?
Were you making changes to get your W to go back to you? I wondered if that is why she did return and she wants to work in the M or if she thought you were getting a lawyer.
The more you can tell us, the better we can help. Come here and post as often as possible and read other people's thread. You will build up a support group.
Have you read Divorce Remedy? You really need to do that ASAP. I'm giving you a list of do's & don'ts. It helps as a guide if you'll use it.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls to him/her.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to him/her through
conversation.....say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention. (Remember, you are drawing him/her back with this technique.)
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make
matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make him/her say it too......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act as if you are moving on with your life!
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do
things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the
conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words. If he/she asks what's wrong....just
say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an
argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home!
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!)
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let him/her trap you into a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how he/she feels (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give him/her space and time.
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Thanks for the encouragement. I've been focusing a lot on the kids. S7 plays soccer so we have that a few days a week. I've been doing a lot more cycling, something I used to do before we were married. I'm having a hard time doing things by myself because I never know when she'll be around. I have to find a good sitter but since she is in the house (sometimes) it's odd. I play in a community band one night a week but it's not something new, been doing it for 10 years now.
I think I'm doing pretty well most of the time and then something like yesterday happens. It was nice for us all to be back together but then today she just called to say that it felt too much like before and she needed to get away so she won't be coming home tonight. I'm trying not to take it personally but it is still really hard.
Financially things have been ok. She went through a bout of big spending a month or so ago. It has slowed down to a managable level. I am prepared to move things into a separate account once things get to a certain level. Right now we aren't there.
Hi sandi2,
I've read a lot of your posts. They've been helpful. I have read DR and I've been pretty good at following the do's and dont's on your list.
I figured out how to add some specifics in my signature. I wasn't really doing aynthing particular to get her back or have her move back in. I think it was because she has been having a tough time being away from the kids and having them hate her for moving out and on top of it all she is probably being coached that moving away from the kids was a bad move. I don't really try to get inside her head to think about it too much though.
I am having a hard time with getting sucked back in. Just the other day I was making dinner for the kids and myself and she came up behind me to give me a hig as I was at the stove. I didn't turn around but did caress her arm as she was hugging me. Later she brought the fact that I wasn't more responsive as a typical old behavior. This is why I am so confused and when I had the opportunity to be more affectionate I took it. It has really confused her and now she is spending the night back at the room she has rented for the month (she has it until the end of the month). It is her thing to process and go through but I don't want to pressure. Just part of the ride right?
Cyclone,
You are doing very well... understand, things are not going to make any sense for a long time to come. I'm sure you all were becoming comfortable with being back together, and her call, it was just an excuse to be out of the house.
Do not take anything she says personally.... you can only believe about half of what she says, think of her as being 16-18 all over again... She's using you as a parental figure, and unfortunately, she's not going to tell you exactly what she is up to, nor is she going to include you in her plans. I'm sorry, it's just the way it is, and it has NOTHING to do with you at all, it's just the nature of the beast.
Okay, that spending a month or so ago, it's was JUST the tip of the iceburge! It's a warning Bub, time to put things in check, trust me, I didn't do it, and have kicked myself for the past 7 years, because I'm still not out of the debt he created... and he was able to afford to go bankrupt, and I couldn't.... it's not easy swimming with the sharks.... and there's no room for nice people like you.... start cutting her off.... allow her own credit cards, but get your name off, keep your cards close to you.... start a separate account, put the base of your monies in there, allow her access to the account you have opened now, but for the sake of the kids, start putting money back NOW!
There are people who have spent thousands on watches, or dinner and hotels with the OW/OM and clothing.... Yikes! Your kids will do better with the money, and let's face it, you've worked hard for it.
Regardless of what you do, and you could be Prince Charming, white steed and all, she is going to blame YOU for everything in her life..... you are going to find that what used to please her, will now make her angry.... she will eat different, she will dress different, she will make more new friends, and do things that you thought she would never do.....
I know she is your heart and soul, and everytime she walks out that door, she crushes your heart where you feel it all the way to the pit of your stomach.... it's why we have to learn to let go, and focus on what we do have in our lives, like you and those great boys you have.
It's going to take every ounce of you to make it through this... there will be good days, and days that you wonder what you've done to deserve this.... and on those days, you'll just have to remember how to put one foot in front of the other, the boys need you to function.
Cyclone,
You have gotten some great advice here so far, and you seem to grasp this for now....
There are gonna be things that make your head want to spin all the way around through this.
MLC....IF she is.....IS a test of EVERYTHING that you have inside you .....
What she is going through is not pretty man, and never think that it is on purpose either....There are things in her head that you cannot begin to imagine.
A couple hits though.....
MLC'ers lie......period
MLC'ers project their feelings onto the person closest to them...
MLC'ers...cheat on their spouses....not all, but the majority of the time.
To get through this, you will need to understand that YOU are the only person that you can do anything about....
Don't spend this time that SHE needs pining away waiting for her..
Do for you and your boys....Always
Take care of YOU.....good friend of mine told me last night, If you don't make yourself Number one...You can't be that for your children....
Realize that you can do everything "right" and there is no gaurantee that you will come out the other side with a restored marriage with her....
What WILL happen is that you will realize that YOU will come out the other side of this a better man.
Take the time to understand what you are dealing with , and then do the work for yourself.....Strive to be better everyday....
Don't snoop....the only person you will hurt is you.....
Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung
Don't put a timeline on this....there is none except hers....
Don't think there is something YOU can do to change this path for her...
You're never gonna talk your way out of something you acted your way into...
Time...Patience...Understanding....and being real...
Those are your friends right now....Your best friends...
Give plenty of space
Do for you
Do for your children
Understand your role right now to get through this....
One day at a time....One hour at a time....and in the beginning?
One minute at a time...
Don't talk to family and friends about this either, you will only hurt you.....
Come here to vent and understand, there is NOTHING you can say that will shock any of us man....
I have always said that I wouldn't wish this onto my worst enemy....at first I meant because of the hurt....Now ?
Because I wouldn't want him to be as good of a man than I ....
What is gained through this , is far more than what is lost.
Think of this as a positive thing, as long as YOU DO THE WORK....
Cyclone,
I will echo everything Mach said.
Ultimately, this is for you.
There are a few of us here with live in spouses…
I want to say that while MLC is hard, having them remain in the home is really really hard…
It will make you spin more than if she was not at home. That is why it is so, super, ultra important that you do your best to keep your focus on you.
If you keep sharing with us, we will do our best to support you through it and share what has worked for us to survive, and eventually, thrive again.
I do have a live in. So does Mach, TrustingFaith, and a few others. We will be here for you.
Well F me, I'm just going to say Hi! after all that good advice.
Seriously, after re-reading this...this is the post that we should direct all the newbies to for the guidelines. ; ) Really good and concise.
What if the MLCer doesn't like themself? What if they had very low self esteem and repressed depression that existed a long time ago? What if we didn't see it, and because of that, may have unwittingly contributed to it?
What if there are times the MLCer can't hide from the reality of their actions and it makes them really p!ssed ... but not at themself? What if they prefer to blame others, and mostly whoever is closest ... like you? What if re-writing history was a self medicating tool to shift blame away and justify insanity?
If any or all of that seemed to apply, what do you think would happen if you tried to argue or attempt to use logic?
What if she says "turn left" and you do? Would she just say that proves some bizare point she just came up with? What if you turned right? Well there you go ... just like she said!
What was the question again?
Was,
What if you vowed to love them till death do you part?
Jack
Are you trying to introduce logic, morality, or maybe emotion?
Won't that cost you MLC points?
A great question though. That vow must stand for something. People need a constant in turbulant times; a lighthouse in the storm. Surviving a spouse in MLC becomes more than just trying not to drown, or repeating a promise. Many people find themself unable to "fix" the situation; but still needing to "do" something.
This is a great place to learn about taking action, and turning emotion into action. Changing ourselves by becoming the person and parent we were meant to be is one action we still own. The rest is not ours alone.
But why lay under the bus when the driver's seat is empty?
You were asking questions about the MLCer...to which their are no answers.
I was asking the question of the LBSer.
: )
The windows are tinted on the bus, you cannot tell where the driver is or is not...you must have faith, strenght, madness, or a certain desperate patience. But if your not laying down in front of the bus, you likely wont be there when the bus stops and driver gets out.
"The vow must stand for something"-At the beginning two spouses make a vow to one another. Then if one spouse breaks the vow, some say the vow has ceased to exist. But we need to be truthful to ourselves in that one day we will look in the mirror and wonder if we up held our end of the vow. At some point in our lives we will all become our hardest critic....at that time I would rather look in the mirror and say "I held to my vow through thick and thin"
Thanks all for the advice and support.
Mach, you are right. My head is spinning from this, but you give great advice. I try not to take it personally and let what she says run off my back. You said IF she is MLC. Does one ever know? We were both seeing an IC and he seemed to think she was possibly bipolar and manic right now. Is there a difference?
My head is mostly in a good place but I have to admit that I still would like this to turn out wih us back together and I look for signs that she is progressing through whatever it is that she is going through. I have accepted that this is her journey to go through and I shouldn't try to shorten the trip. I am using this time to work on myself. Already colleagues at work are noticing that I seem to be more enlightened as I think I have changed on a deeper level in addition to the more visible changes (-30 lbs).
I'm so grateful that this site exists and is frequented by such giving peolppe to help all of us through this most difficult stage.
You will discover that your WAW will try to make everything about her, but that is why it is very important to control the reigns in your own life. Don't take what she says as the gospel and don't make life-long decisions based on what "she" wants. Remember that you have a say about how you want to live your life. But, here's the thing to remember......never argue with her about staying M b/c it will come across as pressure to her and make you look needy. It is soooo important for a W to respect her H--and that must come before the "in-love" feelings. She will not be attracted to you sexually if she does not feel respect and admiration. Even if you think that whatever it is you have to decide makes you appear to be the "bad guy".....do what you have to do to maintain respect in your house. She either respects you....or leaves, one of the other.
Her emotions will be like a rollercoaster and if you allow her...she will take you along for the ride. But, you can choose not to be on a rollercoaster and be your own man. It takes guts, but several men here on the board have done it and so can you. I won't promise that your M will be saved, but you will keep your dignity and self-esteem.
Having said that, I think one of the first things you need to do is to get control of your finances. If you do not have a separate checking account....get one. Get her name off your credit cards. Do whatever you need to do to protect your finances and the your future. You probably think I am going to extremes, but many men have waited too late and then discover their W had cleaned them out. Remember this always......she is not the woman you married! Never forget that for a second.
While you are seeing about your finances, you might talk to a lawyer just to see how things would fall if she did D you.
If your W throws a fit....and she will.....remain calm and simply remind her that she told you she wanted a D, so you were simply protecting yourself. Don't feel that you must reveal everything about your business matters "now" as you have in the past..... at least until you know for sure if she is going to remain your W or not. Whereas you felt duty bound to go home and tell her changes you had made before....some of the rules have been changed since she made her little announcement. Now listen very carefully b/c I do not want you to say that I told you to lie to your W....that is NOT what I am saying, okay? I'm saying that you protect yourself and don't be blind to things a WAW might stoop to do. You will not know this woman. She is a stranger and that is how you need to think about her.
Next, you need to think about "boundaries". Know beforehand what you will tollerate and what you will not put up with. Know what your "deal breakers" are....before they happen. Just be thinking about it and how you will react and what you will say "before" it hits you between the eyes.
Do not try to understand your W's emotions or "read" into what she says & does.....b/c you can't. You will want to see some small move she makes as being a step in the right direction, but the next day she will pull the rug out from under you, so don't set yourself up for disappointment. No expectations!
People want what they can't have....especially in these type of situations. If you were the kind of man that any woman would be a fool to leave.....what would you be like? Work hard to become that man! Set yourself goals. Never discuss this with your W. Never ask if she has noticed your changes. Look sexy, act sexy, and smell sexy.
Never, ever pursue your W b/c each and every time you do, you will push her away. Nothing turns a WAW off more than her H pursuing her. But, if you pull back, she will move closer in. A little thing called human nature.
Everything you feel is the opposite of what you "should" be doing....is what you probably need to do.....such as detaching. Remember, do not be cold or rude.....that is not what detaching is about. Detaching is all in the "attitude" and feeling self-respect. You'll know (and so will we) when you are truly detaching. It takes some longer than others, but the sooner you get there, the better you'll feel.
Personality is important. Don't make a fool out of yourself and "over-kill" trying to be the life of the party....but try to act as if you have had an awakening and have decided to get the most out of life.....and you are loving it! Play with your kids and see how much you can make them laugh! Not only does it help your R with your kids, but most women love to see a man make their childen laugh.
I'll check back with you. You have started out good, so keep up the good work. Don't get upset if you backslide b/c everyone does at some point. Stay focused, and remind yourself that it is not all about "her".
Cyclone,
I just wanted to stop by to offer my support- I am another one with a live in MLCer. It is a really tough thing having to interact more and share space and some days I think it would be easier for my H to live somewhere else. HOWEVER, I do believe it does have its advantages - they do still maintain some kind of interaction even if it isn't much, they see the kids most likely more than they would if they were out, etc.
Try your best to ignore and detach from the craziness. Live your life and let her spin. Focus on the kids. Try to make their life as stable and "normal"as you can (sounds like you already have a good handle on it) for them. Be their rock. They will help keep you grounded and focused on what is important. For me, the deeper bond and greater appreciation I have developed for my kids through this is something I am grateful for every day.
Hang in there and keep us posted. You have lots of support here.
Another thing I meant to say, one of your posts caught my eye when you mentioned your C thought your wife might be bipolar. That is the same thing I had thought initially and my C had thought so as well (not having met my H, just through what I described). Then I read DB and the chapter on MLC and I cried - it described my H to a T. The symptoms seem to be so similar in some ways but I have had several times the past few months when my H has opened up and shared things going on in his head (and it ain't pretty)and he has very deep MLC-type issues so that is what I believe is going on with him and seems to fit. I still don't totally discount bipolar as he does have it in his family but he had never shown any tendencies before.
Cy,
As an LBSer with an MLC spouse, something you are going to have to be is passive. Not passive aggresive...not that bullcrap.
But passive...most of the time.
Think of it like this.
90% of the time you are Tokyo.
10% of the time you need to be Godzilla.
Figuring out when is the hard part.
90% of the time you are Tokyo.
10% of the time you need to be Godzilla.
Figuring out when is the hard part.
I guess that was what I was hoping to learn from all of you that have been or are going through this. It sure ain't easy on your own.
Cyclone,
Yes I do believe that you can know if it really is MLC. Maybe not immediately but as you learn about it, and watch and listen, you will see it if it is there.
MLCer’s seem to follow a script of sorts.
I love you but not in love with you.
Rewriting of history.
You were controlling.
Spending
New friends
The list goes on and on. Read the DR section on MLC, it is actually on a link on here and then read the resource thread here. Educate yourself about what you might be dealing with.
Then, later down the road, read it again. You will know. And one thing to please keep in mind, the stages as they are broken down, do NOT follow the neat way they are typed out. They bounce back and forth, up and down, and just all over the place.
Only you can determine if it is really MLC.
It sure ain't easy on your own.
Cy...
As long as you can learn from your mistakes, be humble and accept that you are not perfect.
Strive to be better every F-N day....
You will survive this storm.....and I mean YOU....
There will come a day when you will actually be thankful of this happening ....and not TO you, but FOR you....
I know that is hard to see now, and that will come in time my friend.....
Just read, understand and stay the course.....
We are ALL in this together....alone.
One of the things that you will see here a lot is...Finding YOUR balance....
That will come in time, and it cannot be forced. You have to FEEL that balance internally.
There is a certain amount of crap that you will have to eat in the beginning of this...It sucks, but it has to happen...
That is the Tokyo part of it.....
There will come a time when you will have to lay boundaries....
Just make sure YOU understand those times , and don't look for any lame-ass excuse to do so....
Carefully choose the hills you are willing to die on ( Nickel)
That is where you reading and understanding MLC, and your role through this.
You will play a part...
Just remember that NOTHING you do will affect her outcome, yet EVERYTHING you do will affect it....
Make sense ? God I hope not, or so...whichever....
Take care of you brother.....
Ask J3B about anger...I like his version.....Plus I will save a nickel.... : )
Let Anger be your Shield,
Not your Sword.
Do not lash out at her with your anger, use your anger to fuel the fire to keep you going. When you're angry...and you will be at times, use it to prove her wrong. "I'll show her."
EVERYTHING, and I mean everything (except for you relationship with your kids) can be burned to keep you going.
BTW,
We are ALL in this together....alone.
nickle cheap a ss.
It's worth a dime.....
Plus 40's nickel too.....
Another night of her insisting that I move out. She goes in cycles with this. Every few days she tries to force the issue. I don't get sucked into a fight about it but I do repeat that I will not move out. This is her decision and her choice, not mine, and she needs to face the consequences of those choices. She will be giving up an enviable life and the kids are already starting to hate her for leaving them.
It takes every ounce of my energy to not get sucked into that fight. I try really hard to just say that we've talked about this before and I'm not going to talk about it any more but it doesn't always work. This time she did it right in front of S7 and he said back to her that there is plenty of room in the house for both of us.
Days like this make me realize that I can move on from this. I don't want to be with a person like she is right now. I can see how it would feel easy to grow in the towel and just be done with it. I still have hope that she will make if through the tunnel and be someone that I will want to be with. I think we owe it to our kids to be together for them.
...I don't get sucked into a fight about it but I do repeat that I will not move out. This is her decision and her choice, not mine, and she needs to face the consequences of those choices...
Right the F on!
Good for you...the rest you might want to work on...enviable life...kids hating her...blah blah blah stuff, but hey! Your right onn about this being her choice, she should move.
Cy....they come out eventually...unless they are really F-ed in the head.
Cyclone,
I second Jack, if she wants to live apart, let her move out.
The other stuff, that is also her problem to deal with. She may not realize for a long time the damage she is doing with the kids, but eventually, more than likely she will. Then it will be up to her to fix that.
What can you do? Be the best Dad that you can be. Be the rock for your sons as they will need you.
I do want to say, letting this happen, letting MLC happen, is not quitting. It is going on with your life, improving yourself, growing and getting stronger. It is rebuilding from the damage that the MLCer has done to you (because there is some, there is always some), and then being the person to be there if and when they do come out of it. If, by that time, that is what you want to do. By the time that happens, if you do the work, you will know if that is what is right for you or not. That is one thing you do have a choice about it this whole crazy thing.
If you rush it, if you just throw in the towel because it is easier, you will always wonder what if…
Do work. It is the best way.
You will see this on here time and again from those of us who have been around for a while, this, this craziness, really has been one of the biggest blessings in my life. Although I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, I wouldn’t change it for the world.
I love you but not in love with you.
Rewriting of history.
You were controlling.
Spending
New friends
The same signs are from by a WAW. That is why it is hard to tell at first. To me, one of the symptoms that sets the MLC W apart from the WAW is how much age, youth, & appearance matters to them. They feel that time has either passed them by or been unkind to them or they missed their big break. They try to recapture their youth. I'm not just talking about getting a new wardrobe or a makeover. I'm talking about being obsessed with it to the point of getting depressed when they go to the mall b/c it seems all they see is stores and pictures having young models and youthful clothes. They start trying to dress as if a teenager (or at least in her 20's).....and behaves so silly trying to act youthful that it is embarrassing.
Men in MLC is just as bad. They come across as "dirty old men" b/c of how they dress & act.
Here's a tough situation. W is really starting to take sides between the kids. S9 has a lot of anger and she uses every excuse to separate herself from h. Today there was apparently some fighting between S9 and S7 and she sides with S7. She punishes S9 by not taking him to the place she promised for lunch. She drops him off with me to follow through with her discipline then takes S7 out tona different place that he wanted to go all along.
I know i can't do anything about what she is doing to her relationship with S9, but I also can't tolerate his tantrums when he doesnt get his way. It is tough being the only parent when I have two kids and one "teenager" all of them acting out.
Aaaaaaagggghhhhhhhhh.
Cy,
Ever heard of the Love and Logic program? It might help with all 3 of them.
No. Sounds like a job for Google.
Yes, it is very tough, but you said it right......two kids and one teenager...and you are the parent! This can be true when it is a WAW but I think it may be even worse when in MLC b/c the "experience" usually lasts longer if MLC.
Since you've brought it up.....let me say that you will have to continue to be the only mature parent the home has. You may need to think about sitting your W down and telling her that if she cannot stop taking sides that you will be in charge of the discipline until she grows up to be a rational adult. If you don't and she continues to treat S9 like this, you will have more problems coming that you can shake a stick at! I doubt she is going to overcome her self-centeredness enough to be much help for a good while.
Have to go, but will talk later.
You may need to think about sitting your W down and telling her that if she cannot stop taking sides that you will be in charge of the discipline until she grows up to be a rational adult. If you don't and she continues to treat S9 like this, you will have more problems coming that you can shake a stick at! I doubt she is going to overcome her self-centeredness enough to be much help for a good while.
Something to be said for Tact, unless you like having your face ripped off.
Here's a little more of my sitch and why ithinkthis is MLC and not WAW.
Morethan a year ago W starts talking about plastic surgury. Doesn't follow through with anyhing bu is starting to notice the wrinkles in the face. Tries dying her hair to look younger. Starts going to an ecstatic dance thing on Sunday afternoons and is hanging out with a people quite a bit younger than she. The dance thing expands to Wednesday nights also. I had always trusted her and so I didn't feel any need to check up on her.
She has been depressed for far longer than the past few years. PCP gave her some meds but she didn't like how they made her feel. A lot oF the household work fell on my shoulders as well as taking care of the kids. We don't have any family around so the vacations together have been short trips or things with the kids. Nothing just the two of us. That has to change if we ge back together.
The day before the bomb she goes out to a party until 3:15am. The next day I told her that I was concerned that she was putting herself on a slippery slope. That's when I get the bomb and the rewriting of history. She then starts taking about how she deserves to spend more money in herself. Everything becomes about her. She misses the kids sportig events to go to her dance group.
Shes been following the script. Does this sound like MLC or WAW? I've been acting like it's mlc.
Something to be said for Tact, unless you like having your face ripped off.
Yep, that's me.....tact all the way.
Cy,
I've been dealing with all this for about 3 years and I still don't really know if my H is MLC or WAS. At this point (for me) it doesn't matter, but I remember when it did, b/c I thought there was more of a chance if he was MLC. Is that what you're really asking?
The reason I don't concern myself with which it is anymore is b/c I realized that what I've learned to look for in a situation really determines mostly what I see. It's like I'm a scientist and I have a hypothesis, so now what do I do? I go about looking for data to support my theory. I could find (probably) just as much data that didn't support it, if I was looking for that.
I'm a little wordy this morning (sorry about that), but the bottom line is. I have set goals and I keep taking steps from where I am to get to where I want to be. I can choose to modify the steps I take based on my results, but like you've heard ad nauseum, you can only control yourself.
Does she sound more like she's following the script? From what I've read, I'd say yes. What does that mean to you in terms of how and what you plan to do to fulfill your own personal goals?
Cy,
I agree that it does sound like she is following the script as well. But like Grace said, does it really matter? In terms of how you are going to handle you?
Although I do not doubt MLC in my situation, I could not let that dictate my own choices for me.
That is honestly the only thing you can control. Right now, if you choose to stand, then you have to focus on yourself and the best way for you to do that. If you choose not too, well again, you have to focus on yourself and the best way for you to do that.
So, do you have goals for yourself? Other than saving your M? Other than surviving a D?
Wordy ?
Grace used a PARAGRAPH....<snicker>
Cy .....look Bro,
You can get into the whole MLC-WAW , Chicken or Egg stuff all freakin day....
In the end....Does it really matter when it pertains to YOU , and the things YOU do ?
Not really.....
That is why it is imperative for YOU to focus on you....
Thinking about this will keep YOU stuck in a spin pattern that would blow Dorothy to the moon, instead of Oz....
MLC.....Like people, are sooooo individual to everyone....Yes , they all have similar scripts, but in the end, they are as unique as the person going through this.
Question to ponder for you......
If you were hungry.....would you sit and watch a dead apple tree, hoping to see it bloom.....or would you perch yourself under a tree that you know will bear fruit ?
Now....which tree is you ?
Sandi......I like NOT having my eyes scratched out....
Telling her that she sucks as a Mother?
Man that is a FINE line there.....even if it IS true.
Grace used a PARAGRAPH....<snicker>
Tthhppp
Man that is a FINE line there.....even if it IS true.
Truly this is walking on a razor blade.
I would be
very cautious about how and what was said. If you have to go there make it about the kids as much as possible. For example: "S9 has shared with me he feels like you are taking sides against him and I have seen a couple of things that perhaps you could clarify so I can help him understand." If she says she'll do it, you could make the point that you could be more helpful to
him when he talks to you about it, if you understand where she's coming from.
Just a thought from another perspective
Thanks for the good advice. I think the parenting part is the most difficult.
As far as whether it is waw or mlc, you all are right. It doesn't really matter as far as the things I am doing for me go. I guess it's the scientist side of me just trying to catch a glimps of understanding about what she is going through. I know I'll never fully understand it but it really helps me to be detached and not take things personally to try to understand. And if I'm being true to myself, there is still a small (and decreasing) part of me that thinks about the chances of getting back together with waw or mlc.
I am working on being the best me possible no matter.
Sandi,
I didn't mean to offend. And if I did...
look at it this way. You are a rational person, who perhaps felt slighted by what I said. When no slight was meant.
IF Cyclone goes to his wife, who may very well be in MLC...in which case, out of touch, selfish, entitled and all the other symptoms that go along with it and he says.
"Until you can act like an adult, I'm in charge of the kids."
How do you see that playing out?
Cy,
If the check into the aforementioned parenting stuff, you might find it helpful. If not, nothing lost. It has helpped me with teen D's.
Working on the best you, is the best you can do right now.
Just think of how much more awesomer you'll be
If the check into the aforementioned parenting stuff, you might find it helpful. If not, nothing lost. It has helpped me with teen D's.
I just want to second Grace's pitch for the Love and Logic books --
Parenting w/ L & L, and
Parenting Teens w/ L & L -- they both just make sense. The techniques within not only teach kids about consequences and responsibility, but also help parents detach from their drama, which can be useful with our MLCers as well.
Who said I was offended? I wasn't slighted. I thought you knew by my response.
Besides, you all are missing my point. I didn't mean he had to quote my exact words to her. I was saying those words to "him" in order to get my point across to him about his wife. Obviously I did a very poor job!
I think I am going to go look up those Love and Logic books - I need some help with the kiddos right about now! Grrrr . . .
Cy,
Right now, you are going to see and hear crazy things from your W. She will not be the same mother she was, and although it is infuriating, if you even suggest that you think she is not doing a good job, it will more than likely bring about some sort of fallout that will not be really pleasant.
Improving your own parenting skills, be it through educating yourself a bit about your children and effective parenting skills, or just through really working to strengthen your relationship with your children, is about the only thing you can do.
Minimize the damage. Be there to listen, support, love, and hug the kids as much as possible.
Become the parent that they KNOW they can turn to. You can’t just tell them. You have to show them.
Kids are most of our weak points here. Most of us, we can take just about anything that our S’s throw at us, but when we see the pain of our children, well that is our breaking point.
However, as I was reminded earlier this week, thank you Brooklyn and Mach, you can only control your relationship with your kids. You have to walk a very fine line to ensure that your relationship with your kids does not become damaged as well through this.
Someone has to be the rock, and for now, it is your turn.
TF, those babies, love them. Smile for them. Hold them and pray with them. Be honest at their level and let them know that you are always there for them honey. They will know…
Thanks for that reminder. That's one of the changes that I have gone trough. I've always been a great dad - always there for my kids. In the past they would frustrate me because they wouldn't do things the way I wanted. Now I am much better at letinf the little things go. I still set boundaries for them because they need them but I don't vet frustrated and angry. I am still getting better at this. I want to be the person I want the
to grow up to be. I will be their rock - someone they can always turn to for support and someone they know alway loves them no matter what.
The love and logic books look pretty good. I am already doing a lot of what is in them. It never hurts to read too much though and I have a lot of time to read now.
Journaling:
It was a pretty good evening yesterday. When I arrived home from work S7 was doing homework, S9 was playing on the Wii and W was sitting on the floor working on her Halloween costume.
We had pleasant conversation. No pressure from me, no R talk, just friend stuff. She asked how my day was and I told her some of what happened at work. I kept things pleasant but short. Spent some time with S9 laughing over the silly game he was playing. S7 joined in the fun too.
W was telling me about her upcoming busy day Friday. She also told me she is going to a Halloween party Friday night since she won't be able to go Halloween night because she wants to take the kids out trick-or-treating. My response was "that sounds like fun."
As I said, it was pleasant friend talk. I didn't initiate anything, kept things short, then had to get my things together to head off to ensemble rehearsal.
How did you feel last night?
At ease? More relaxed?
Like anything you get better with practice.
And you seem to know you did well. : )
Thanks for asking these questions J3B; its a great way for me to understand which things are working and maybe why.
I was definitely more relaxed. Maybe it was because I knew I was going back out? Could just be because I was having a good time laughing with the kids. Need to focus on that more anyway because it's good for all three of us to laugh more often.
Just when I think I'm starting to detach fromthe emotional part of this all, I have a down day. Nothing in particular to trigger it but it was a tough day today.
W took the kids trick-or-treating last night. I stayed back to hand out candy. There were some good moments of us together with the kids. She also brought up her now standard topic of conversation - that I need to move out. This time the Pproach she took was to say that she is going to keep the room she is renting and spend sometimes there and sometimes in the house. I'm trying to walk the fine line between being a doormat and pressuring her. I just told her that it was ok to have a place to go to when she felt that she needed to be away. She then said she was hoping that I would find a place too so that I could go someplace when she is feeling that I need to be away. I told her I wasn't going to talk about that subject anymore.
Today was S9's baseball game. I was surprised That she showed up in the second inning of the game but not so surprised when she left after the third inning. She did stop by to tell me she was leaving because she got to see what she came for; S9 pitched the third inning.
I was having a tough time before this and that didn't help. Tonight will probably be another night with her not coming home. I've given her the master bedroom and it does make me a bit angry at myself because now she isn't even using it but I feel that at this time I should show her that she can trust that I won't violate her space by sleeping in the bed when she is not her.
Just getting this all out to help with the feelings. I am focusing on the kids tonight and we have had a fun day. Tomorrow is a new day. It is still hard to not think that I wish she would just be able to go through this quickly.
She then said she was hoping that I would find a place too so that I could go someplace when she is feeling that I need to be away. I told her I wasn't going to talk about that subject anymore.
Good man....Do NOT leave that house.
I've given her the master bedroom and it does make me a bit angry at myself because now she isn't even using it but I feel that at this time I should show her that she can trust that I won't violate her space by sleeping in the bed when she is not her.
I think I would be sleeping in my master bedroom again soon.
Sleeping in another room, looking at that empty master some nights is not going to get easier.
Let her redecorate a guest room, if she chooses to visit as a guest. Redecorate your master as if you are the master who will continue to live there.
It does sound contrary to what you are feeling. It may sound like it will disturb her.
Uhh... she is disturbed and that won't change soon. Limit how much you become disturbed. See a professional and discuss these things. Find your strength. Ok, don't redecorate the master, but live in it. No matter what you try right now, you will have the ups and downs of life on the roller coaster. Try to make your seat safe and comfortable. Don't give away leverage over your life to someone who will not appreciate or honor it.
If she has a place to go hide there is no reason for you to need one. That is her way of trying to slip you out the door. No way. You don't need a "room" somewhere else when you have one you aren't using in your home. Your call, not hers.
If you really want a middle ground, then explain you will only sleep in the guest room when she is there. Where you sleep when she is out, is up to you. If she wants to move you out of the master, she will need to do it one night at a time, by being there.
If she has a place to go hide there is no reason for you to need one. That is her way of trying to slip you out the door. No way. You don't need a "room" somewhere else when you have one you aren't using in your home. Your call, not hers
100% agreed.
Her life changing plans, doesn't mean she gets to decide where you live...just her. IF she needs space but wants to be home and YOU feel like it, go for a drive or see a movie.
But I do not recommend you finding a room to rent.
Cy,
I agree with the guys. My H wanted this, HE moved into the other room. With no help from me at the time. Recently, I moved out all that he had left in here.
If she wants to leave, that is her choice. She will or won’t do it, but you really don’t need to have somewhere else to go. You could spend that “rent” money on something that you will enjoy. If you really need to get away from her when she is there, you can always close the bedroom door. But that will be up to you. Not her.
Living with them, will make you creative. And more aware of your own feelings. About everything. It will also make you aware of your actions and reactions. It’s hard but not impossible.
There is no chance I will be moving out of the house. I'm glad that thinks that is the right thing to do. I have told her repeatedly that this is her decision and if she needs to be away from me she can move out. She did for a couple of months. She tried moving back in and now has the master bedroom (this was my choice). She still feels the need to keep a place that she can run to. Fine.
I walk away from the conversation now when it turns to this subject. I've said all I have to say about it. I agree that she could just close the door to the bedroom when she needs to be completely alone. She still says she feels me in the house and needs time without me there. The funny thing is that she has noticed that I have changed and thinks the reason I am doing so well is because I e had the past two months in the house by myself. She thinks that the reason she still feels depressed and confused is because she hasn't had that opportunity. I'm glad she tries to exain how she is thinking and I try to validat her feelings. I won't move out of he house. The kids need the stability that I can give them.
Cyclone,
Sounds as though you are receiving good advice. Continue to be the source of stability for your children, continue to stand your ground calmly, you are doing very well!
It's been an up and down couple of weeks. I've been trying really hard to detach in a loving way and thought I've been successful. The past few days I've had a lot of self doubt but I've made it through them.
I've been taking the approach of giving W the space she needs to figure things out. This morning she woke me early to have a R discussion. It sure sounds like she is done. She says she has tried for years to make things work and just doesn't see that it can. I've heard much of this before but she sounds like she is not confused at all about this. Is this part of the process? She said that she thought the first few weeks (before I started reading DR and this and other sites) were good and things could be different but lately she doesn't have any connection. I told her I understand but I was trying to give her the space that she was asking for. The first few weeks I was unknowingly pursuing.
I got the sense that she wanted to let me know that there is someone else but she never went there. I do suspect that she is involved in an EA. I told her that I wanted to try to make things work between us and that we've never really tried to work on us together. It seems to me that the only reason one wouldn't want to try to work things out is if there is someone else. See still denies it.
Is she a WAW or MLC? I was so sure that it was MLC, now I just don't know.
I'm taking the kids to Disneyland this weekend, so we'll have fun together. She still thinks that the kids can make it through a D without any ill effects as long as we convince them that they will be OK. I don't believe that. I am staying strong for my kids, even though she is accusing me of filling their heads with hatred for her. I am not.
I guess I'll see if this is another idle threat or if she will follow through this time. As you all have mentioned, it will get worse before it gets better. She may destroy all she has in that process. I am not in control here.
I am finding it difficult to find the strength to continue through this.
I told her that I wanted to try to make things work between us and that we've never really tried to work on us together...
Boom...boom...booom...boom...boom...BOOM!
You ever see a guy get shot down in a bar?
That was the noise the flak makes, and then the flat hand shakes as you lower it swiftly to the ground in a dead stick glide, and then you make the bruing sounds.
cccrssssksskkssk! BOOOM!
How did that go?
she is accusing me of filling their heads with hatred for her.
We fear in others what we see and fear the most in ourselves.
Thanks for the dose of reality Jack.
I suppose I need to learn to just accept what she is saying, that she tried and all, and not respond in anyway with what I think. I forget that she doesn't care what I think right now. So a major backslide. Time will tell if it makes her move forward with things or not.
She wants to have the kids for Thanksgiving. I told her that would be fine. She also wants me to go visit my parents. That is not something I feel comfortable doing right now. I was planning on taking the week off and relaxing from the stresses of my paying job. I'll make sure to spend plenty of time outside of the house, but I won't let her choose where and when I take a "vacation".
More journaling:
I took the kids to Disneyland this weekend. There were a few pity party moments, but I successfully recovered quickly. The kids and I had a blast; hard not to at "The happiest place on earth". I was really able to get in touch with the 10 year old in me. I see now that I need to do that way more often. Life has become too serious with all of its responsibilities and there is no reason to not step back to see the joy in everything.
W called for the kids a lot during the weekend. I didn't pick up the phone every time because we were having fun and I didn't feel like walking around the park with a phone to my ear. She really had a tough time with them being away this time, but it was only Friday through Sunday. Funny how just a couple of months ago she was leaving every weekend (sometimes Thurs - Tues) and didn't seem to miss the kids as much then. Doesn't she realize that this is what a D will be like all the time? Silly question...of course she doesn't.
The kids and I had a great weekend. There wasn't a single moment that was bad. Even the 6h car trip there and back was great!
More stuff to figure out. I am having an ok time detaching from W but dealing with the kids still is the hardest part. I am trying my best to be a firm but fair dad. I set boundaries that make sense and are fair but W removes the boundaries to make the kids not hate her.
I am the only one that pushes them to get their homework done, music practice, and bedtime routine. We were doing great when W was out of the house. Now that she is back she is constantly eroding those routines and boundaries and then trying to draw me into a fight over their consequences.
Last night was a good example:
I came home from work to find the three of them watching a movie. It was almost 6 and they had not had dinner. W had gone grocery shoppping (I let her know I appreciated her for doing that) and there were grocery bags all over the kitchen floor. I didn't let the mess bother me and started to make some dinner. She had boiled a few ears of corn. I made a chicken and rice dish. After the movie the kids and I sat down to have our dinner, she retreated to her bedroom to talk on the phone.
About 30 minutes later she comes out and raises her voice at me to tell me that if the kids want to have the lights on in the hallway that is ok and I shouldn't tell them that they have to have the lights off. Just a few months ago, she used to get upset if there was a crack of light from the hallway showing underneath the door of our bedroom. we both used to feel that its hard to get a good sound sleep when the lights are on. We used to be on the same page. Now she yells at me in front of the kids that she is on their side now.
She then said she needed to go the room she's rented for the evening to get away from everything and have peace. Left me with another difficult evening with the kids. They feel like they get to set when bedtime is and when I told them that they needed to be in bed by 9 the oldest said he was going to call mom to get me in trouble. I diffused the situation by giving him a big hug and talked about growing pains and testing limits. The evening turned out ok but I don't know if I am doing the right thing.
She came back sometime in the middle of the night and woke me up at 6 to ask if I would leave for work early so she could spend time with the kids alone. I agreed and got dressed and left. Just a few moments ago I got a call from her saying that the kids aren't behaving the way she wants them to. They just want to play on the Wii and won't get dressed to go out. She said that I need to come home as soon as I can so she can leave. I told her that I would be home at the normal time I get home from work and that I had confidence that she could handle parenting them. She said she would just hire a babysitter to watch them for the day. I replied that I trust her decision but if she chooses the babysitter to please take care of paying him/her.
Any better way of handling this?
Had to have thick skin last night. Got home from work and made the kids dinner. W was watching tv the whole time. All seemed to be fine. As I was making dinner she mentions that she would like me to watch the kids Friday night so she can go to some Green event. I told her that would be fine; I also asked if she could watch the kids Sat night or should I get a babysitter because I wanted to go out. She asked where I would be going and I told her just "out".
As I was cleaning up the kitchen, W tells the kids they need to go do their homework and get ready for bed. Being 7 and 9, they don't listen right away. She gets a bit frustrated and looks at me and says, "See, this never happens when you aren't here. They listen when it's just me. This is another reason why we can't be together." I replied simply, "I understand that you are frustrated and I'm sorry you feel that way." She then says "And now I am just eating because of this. I don't do this when you aren't around." Again "sorry you feel that way"
I let her words roll of me and told the kids I had to get going to band rehearsal. Told them goodnight and left.
The tough part of all of this is that she really believes that I am the source of her pain and will probably file for D because she thinks it will make her happy. Detaching is tough - not there yet but getting closer each day.
Where is everyone. A few words of encouragement would be nice!
Fridays are pretty dead around here...mostly.
She might she might not, she could have eggs for breakfast tomorrow. You don't know.
Is it true about the kids?
The whole eating thing? Heh, yeah...no willpower that's your fault.
Deattaching is tough, but you seem to be doing it well. How did rehersal go? What type of music do you play?
Hi Cyclone,
Its always a bit quiet over the weekend, so I thought I'd just say hi, thought I'd spend the quiet time popping in on a few new folks!
Cyclone,
Hello and you are doing well. Keep those plans for the weekend even if it means that she has to stay home with them. You will need the breaks as much as possible through out this, because you are in for a long ride.
P.S. Something sounds fishy to me about Thanksgiving...I definitely wouldn't go on "vacation" somewhere else. It sounds like there is a fox in the chicken coup and this is an introduction setup.
Thanks for the replies everyone. It's been a while since I've heard from anyone.
Rehearsal was good last night. We play mostly classical music - things like Noght on Bald Mountain. I've only been playing bassoon for a couple of years. Needless to say I've had a bit more time to practice than in the past. It's a great distraction. I wish the rehearsals were more than one night a week.
I thought the lies W were spewing last night to be pretty humorous. Made all the more so by her actions today. She said last night she would watch the kids tomorrow while I went out and today on the phone she said that she would only watch them if I couldn't get a "good" sitter. I told her not to worry about it. I will arrange for a sitter. She's still running. So much for spending time alone with the kids with me not around!
I also though the thanksgiving request sounded a bit fishy. That would be a big step over the line to bring an OM around the kids at this point. I have to admit that is part of the reason that I am not going to go anywhere. I think the kids should be protected from that confusion. This is tough enough as it is on them.
Hope everyone has a great weekend. Stop by if you get a chance. It's our last soccer game then I get free weekends to do fun stuff with the kids.
We seem to be in a better place the past couple of days. Had a great time with the kids on the weekend. S7's last soccer game on saturday. W shows up and doesn't say anything to me until after the game. My assistant coaches wife asks me if I want to join their family for lunch. W asked what we are doing and is also invited. She joins us and we have a great time together. No expectations. She took off later in the day to spend the night at the room she rents.
Sunday the two boys and I went on a bike ride to a nearby lake to do some fishing. Later in the day W meets us for S7's music recital. Afterward we decided to go to benihana for dinner. Again a nice time together. I had a great time. She left the table a few times bit overall it was great to be together as a family.
Today we spent a lot of time together around dinner. After dinner she asked me what we were going to do about thanksgiving. Last week she said she wanted to take the boys so I haven't made any plans. She now wants to do what is best for the kids. I don't know what that means go her but it doesn't sound like she thinks it means taking them someplace or have me go someplace and keeping them in the house. No expectations.
Later in the evening she made a few remarks about my taking baths in the evening to relax and having the fireplace on. She said that these are things that she does and finds it funny that I'm now doing them too. I should have just said I'm sorry you see it that way but my guard was down and I said that I've been taking baths in the evening since august (bomb drop) and the house has been cold at night but she doesn't liketk have the furnace on.
Tomorrow is a new day. No need to beat myself up about the little backslide.
Cy,
I don’t know if that was a backslide. You don’t want to be “sorry you feel that way” about everything. Maybe just a comment that it is something you find you enjoy. Who knows.
Validating and not pursuing and all of that takes a ton of time to get used to. And sometimes you do have to say what you feel or think. As time passes, it becomes easier to know when to say what.
Funny how one day she is calling you because the kids won’t listen to her and then later blaming you because they listen to her when you are not around…
Do your best to not let her use the kids as pawns. Personally, I refuse to let my S hold anything over my head by the threat of “telling his father”. That is total bull. When I am home, I am the parent and I don’t care what his father thinks. So I tell him, go ahead but it won’t make any difference in my decision with you.
You sound like you have a good idea of what is going on and are handling it well.
Have a good day.
Cy, you have a really good handle on this. Wish I had at the stage you're at.
Is she MLC or WAW? Does it matter? I thought it did in my sitch, but turns out that it don't.
About the kids / sitter w the W.
She said last night she would watch the kids tomorrow while I went out and today on the phone she said that she would only watch them if I couldn't get a "good" sitter. I told her not to worry about it. I will arrange for a sitter. She's still running. So much for spending time alone with the kids with me not around!
From experience now, I ALWAYS arrange for a friend to watch my boys b4 I call her and ask if she wants to keep them that night. Every time you don't, you give her veto power over your plans, and guess what, an MLCer will veto at the last minute EVERY time.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, or more specifically, she want's to have a single life, and have you to fall back on. You having a life outside of stay at home pineing for her, doesn't really fit in too well with her MLC life.
I'm not trying to be mean about this, but take it from experience, that is EXACTLY what you are experiencing here.
I really don't think that they even know that is what they are doing, but it doesn't matter, cause all the intricate deceptions that go on in their heads are still going on.
I also though the thanksgiving request sounded a bit fishy
Again, from experience, my x tried to make me leave and take my boys to my parent's on Christmas during the D. When I decided to keep the kids home for Christmas, you'd have thought I launched nukes on Russia! It's not about you or her or the kids, it's about being defied on their plans.
I don't often say do this or do that, mostly cause we view each other's world through a looking glass darkly, but on this, I will unequivocally say that you should tell her that she can have the kids for Thanksgiving, but that you'll be staying home, and enjoying the holiday at home alone. If she wants to have them for a private celebration, then she can take them to her apartment or wherever she stays then she is "divorcing" herself from the family / reality. If that's an unsuitable place in her mind, then, Hello, welcome to the world you are making.
It's not up to you to make her MLC easier on her, I did that a lot, and I regret every second of it. When I finally stopped, you wouldn't believe the Godzilla I awoke.
I'm totally not suggesting that you poke that Godzilla with a stick, (if you do, get a looooong stick,
) just that acquiescence, apart from your normal life, to the MLCer only furthers her illusion that this behavior is fine, that things will be easy, that the kids will be fine. etc. All that BS.
Just one guy who's story reads like yours word for word, Nope. I'm not leaving. If you have some plans that don't include me, then do them at your apartment or your Mom's place, wherever, but I'm here and I'm stayin here, at my home. I'm gonna go for a run, then watch the Packers, then make dinner, then enjoy it, and then watch the Raiders stomp the Cowboys.
I'm hardly suggesting that you get in her face and have a confrontation, DBing principles apply here, but you can do this in a DBing way, by couching your refusal to leave in terms that are non-confrontational, like "About Thanksgiving, I'm not traveling this holiday, I'll be staying home. You and the kids are welcome to join me, but if not, I hope that you have a good holiday together."
And on that note, I'll throw this out there too. My X wanted the D, I didn't, blah blah blah. When she filed she refused to leave for the next 6 months, I left the marital bed for a spare room to be a gentleman. Is that important? Hmm, not sure, but I'll say this, it made me feel like it was my fault, it made my kids think that it was my fault, it encouraged her in the idea that she made the rules according to her MLC.
I wouldn't do it that way again.
Best,
Punkt.
Hi Punkt, thanks for stopping by my thread.
Some days I think I have a good handle on this and others I wonder if am completely clueless. I am having a tough time with the detachment but it is slowly getting better. I realize that the only thing I can control is myself but I am still having a hard time with letting go.
You are totally right about what they are doing re: having a single life but also wanting to have us to turn to. Having two kids in the mix makes things really tough. When it come to household chores I think she is testing to see just how little work she can do. Then I realize I am a better person than to play such childish games and I want the kids to see their dad as a responsible parent and adult. This is where I feel clueless sometimes.
In retrospect I wish too that I had not been the gentleman and given up our room. It doesn't make me feel like this is my fault but I don't want the kids to think it is. My oldest has said he feels sorry for me. That isn't good either. I've told him that where I sleep is my choice and not moms so no need to feel sorry for me. I'm not ready to open the hornets nest by demanding that she move out of our room yet. Still not detached enough.
I thought things were getting better between us. She has been connecting with the kids more and our times together have been more friendly and more like old times. But then she continues to bring up that we have to move things along and get this all figured out. She is talking about D of course. The last time this happened was last Friday. I don't want to get drawn into a discussion in front of the kids. He goal is to make them think that this is something thatbwe both want. I keep saying it is her choice to do as she wishes. I won't get sucked into filling or taking responsibility for a D.
Enough rambling for now. Check in from time to time. I get a lot of support from reading these threads knowing that others have gone through or are going through this mess. It sucks and hurts like he11.
An update:
The past couple of days have been interesting. The MLC is very good at spreading their confusion or sucking us in.
A couple of days ago while making dinner, W comes in and starts talking about stuff. I've been really good the past few days while off work of keeping the conversation light and maintaining PMA. She then asks if I ever give any thought to being friends later. She says she still wants to be my best friend and wants me to be hers. I told her that we used to be best friends but I don't have a crystal ball. I said I'd like to be her friend for now. There has definitely been a noticable increase in the amount of friendly talk between the two of is. Just two months ago she couldn't wait to leave whenever o was around.
Yesterday evening I sat down to watch some tv and she came in to join me. Rather than sit on opposite sides of the couch she sat next to me. A few minutes later she is really close and puts her head on my shoulder. I followed her lead by rubbing her feet a bit later when she adjusted positions. It was an evening where I felt I was with my wife again.
I told myself later to enjoy the moment for what it was and have no expectations. Today started well enough. Got up to go for an hour long bike ride (GAL). Spent good time with the kids later. She struggled with some business stuff for most of the day. This is something that in the past I would have jumped in to save her. I didn't help when she was complaining about it. Just said I had confidence in her thatvshe could figure it all out.
Later in the day she joined me on the couch and wanted to talk about thanksgiving. She wanted to know if would be alright if she left around 2:30. I told her that we had agreed to have dinner at 2 and she could leave whenever she wanted. She won't be home tonight so she probably won't show up until 2 but at this point if she joins us or not is her choice. It still amazes me that she has gone from wanted the kids by herself to now spending maybe 30 min with them for thanksgiving. She has toldnthem theybcqn spend the afternoon on the Wii because as she told me the won't notice that she is gone. Right.
The final part of the conversation on the couch was about we need to figure things out soon. She doesn't want us to drop a Hiroshima bomb on the kids over the holidays. There is no us in the bomb dropping. It won't be any easier on the kids later although she may have an easier time. This talk still affects me although I don't let it show. She commented that I never want to talk about this stuff and she is ways the one to initiate conversations.
The stuff I am confused about is doing 180s. If one of her valid complaints was that I don't show affection as much as I should so I just have to tough it out and hope to get to a point where she wants to try again to show her that I can make that change. It seems as though detaching plays into the more of the same behavior. Then again I realize that the only way she can get through this is on her own and I have to drop the rope for that to happen. This is why I am confused about the difference between a WAW and MLC. In the end I'll be fine because I am working on me but I'd also like to not do the wrong thing when it comes to a chance to save our M.
Opinions welcome.
How about showing more affection towards the KIDS?
As for talking about things, sounds like she wants you to agree with her decison to leave. Remember, this is a decision SHE is making. Don't let her make this a joint decision.
By making it a joint decision, she is removing some of the guilt. She can say to herself and friends "we both agreed to go our seperate ways".
Don't let her make that decision for you. Enjoy the weekend.
Thanksgiving was an interesting day. Turns out W did come home sometime on the middle of the night Wednesday. In the morning s7 asks if she wants to go to pick flowers. It's something they have done together the past couple of years. This time he wants to ride his bike. S9 wants to go on a ride too and asks if I want to join them. We all end up going for a short ride around the neighborhood looking for wildflowers.
When we get back home W wants to go swimming so she takes S7. S9 wants to stay home with me. She come back about 30 min before dinner is served. She spends that time getting all dressed up. We have a nice meal then she tells the kids they can go play computer games and leaves.
She doesn't come back home until Friday around 5pm. I regret responding to a text she sent earlier asking what we were doing. I should have ignored it or maybe better responded that we were having fun. Instead I told her the kids and I were playing a board game. When she finally gets home she wants to take the kids to a movie. I said great, have a great time. S9 will only go if I go and asks her if I can come too. She says of course I am welcome to go but when he tells me that I have to go because otherwise he won't, she rolls her eyes. I made the mistake of saying thatvi saw the eye roll and I wouldn't be going. That opened floodgates for some of her venom. She said that for years I didn't go out with them to pick flowers but I had to yesterday. I handled that one ok but when she said I am pushing her away all the time I reponded with I am trying to give you space and you are running. I tried to remain calm and eventually had to say that I wouldn't get sucked into a fight about it. Take the kids to the movie and have a great time. S9 stayed home with me but not before a bunch more drama between the two of them. Of course that is my fault too.
This stuff is emotionally draining. Today more drama over the kids. She wanted to take them both to the library and then out to lunch, then take s9 to do some shopping. Fantastic. Have fun. Please call when you Re on your way home because I might go out and I want to make sure that I am home when you bring s7 back.
I did go out to have lunch. As I was getting ready to leave he calls and says I know you told me to call so I shouldn't be frustrated but you aren't home. She asks where she can meet me to drop off S7. Stay at home I say. I'll be there in 5 min. She calls back to say that she is on her way out. Where can she meet me. I tell her meet me at home. She calls back to say that s7 hasn't had lunch and she would drop him off at a resturaunt we visit frequently. I drive there to find her parked out front with s9 in the car. S7 is in the restaraunt all by himself.
Sorry for the long post. Just had to get it all out.
It's been a few days and some things have happened. W called yesterday from the C office to say that she wanted me to join her for a session because there were some things she had to talk about.
Later she called me back with second thoughts about paying a C for us to talk. The reason she wanted to talk to me was to apologize for last week's little fight about going to the movies with the kids. She realizes now that it was very hurtful and wanted to apologize. Little does she know that there have been many more more hurtful things than that.
She wanted to talk about our R. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah but I could really sense the confusion. I listened and validated with every ounce of my being. She admitted to being in a MLC. Said she loves and respects me deeply but doesn't feel any romantic love toward me. In the same sentence said she still wants a D but it can be what we want it to be. Doesn't have to be legal, can just be us splitting our time with the kids. Huh? Lots more blah, blah, blah.
The solution she proposed was for us to both have places to stay outside the house and we would share time in the house with the kids. That way they would be in a stable environment and minimize the impact of the situation. I am still against moving out of the house, but she doesn't want to leave full time again because of the disastrous effect it had on the kids relationship with her.
I have to admit that there is a part of me that wants to just move out to let her see that what things would be like without me around - completely drop the rope. Unfortunately I am conflicted because of the kids. I feel they really need me around them right now.
She expressed her frustration that I've been doing things on my own without telling her. She is afraid that I will not be there for her to help with things like taxes. I told her I have confidence in her ability to make it on her own. Maybe she is starting to see a little of the light?
Anyway, she made a dinner for me and the kids as part of her apology and actually apologized to me and the kids at the dinner table. I'll take it.
How are you doing Cyc?
Are you holding up well?
That "We'll all still be a happy family after the divorce" fantasy world where clouds are made of cotton candy and dogs poop out licorice is a wonderful place isn't it?
Look man, if she is in MLC, then this is temporary. Unfortunately...so was the Mesozoic Period...but as is the life of a may fly.
Her confusion is your ally.
And the kids do need you around, you're their dad man. You're not the crazy one, you stick there.
Cyclone,
Please don’t do anything rash. If she wants to leave, let her. But unless you really want to leave, don’t do it to try to prove any point to her.
The confusion is your friend. Although it will also keep you on the rollercoaster if you let it. Keep doing what you need to do for you. Listen to her, recognize what she says for what it is. There is merit in her words believe it or not. You just have to sift through the BS to find it.
Do your best to make the holidays the best for you and your kids. That is what is important right now. She will find her way when she is ready.
Hi Jack,
Doing pretty well most of the time.
I'm still LMAO over your fantasy world comment! That made my day. It sure is a wonderful place!
Hi Cat,
Thanks for checking in with me. I don't plan to do anything rash and I don't feel like leaving so I won't. Thanks for reminding me of the possible merit in her words. Sifting BS is a tough job.
Hey Cat,
Still been thinking of this leaving thing. As I said, I don't want to do it because I think the kids really need the stability that I give them. But...
While I know that I can't push her or help her through this, I don't want to do anything that prolongs the fantasy world she is living in. Right now she comes and goes as she pleases. I've been taking care of the kids and the house with minimum help from her. Even though she tells me that the reason she wants me to be away is so she can spend more time with the kids, she usually runs from them after a short period of time because she really can't handle them right now.
I'm starting to wonder if the only way she can look at herself is to really not be around. I can't do that when I'm in the house if she won't leave either.
It's been a while since I posted here. Not much new going on. Still a lot of up and down. I'm trying really hard to detach myself from W. I've been finding this really hard the past few days.
We've been pretty friendly toward each other. She still leaves the house about half of the time to spend the night at her rented room or maybe with OM. I know she has been on olved in an EA but she hasn't admitted anything yet. I've been preparing myself for that day.
I am having a tough time keeping this up. I have been a lot of things to male myself a better person. Fixing the things that I don't like. It is really hard to keep going with only hints of baby steps. I catch myself wondering I'm just reading into things.
I'll be ok. Most of the time I have a PMA and keep myself occupied. Just hoping to see something to help keep me going.