Can anyone answer this? Part 8 - DivorceBusting.com

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Locked again!

VH, I agree with what you said in my other thread about "only controlling myself".

Snodderly have you stopped posting to me???? $\:$$

Whats new with me?????????
I will tell you.
I have lost weight! (not at my idea weight yet, but working on it)
I am tanning, getting ready for summer!
I got my hair done.
and I am working on some things around the house.
Yep, I am being very productive! $\:$$

Productive is good. It reminds you of who you really are.

What else (as if there's time) do you have in mind to accomplish?

Grace_O, there are alot of things I did to do around the house, IF I intend on keeping it and I am trying.
If I stay here, I need to paint, plant some flowers and finish building the back deck that my xh left unfinished when the "SHIP" picked him up.lol
I am on the hunt right now for a FIRST SHIFT job, so I will only have to work one or two days on second shift.

I wanted to ask, whoever wants to answer, would a DB coach help me in anyway right now. I am already divorced but I have decided to stand for my marriage and family until I feel otherwise and GOD lets me know. I want to do everything I can do right, just in case there is hope for our family in the future.
Any other suggestions on what I need to be doing, other than GAL and working on the above?

Hugs,
Renee

I know that the DB coach has helped others immensely so maybe it cant hurt to try. I believe they would tell you the same thing everyone else has told you - leave him alone and stop obsessing.

I think you should google "life coaching".

I have found the DB coaches really helpful. When I was obsessing, and when I wasn't. I have been able to take some valuable tips from the woman I've talked to. It got to the point that the focus was me and my D's (not H or M) and how to help one D in particular. If you've got the resources, what the heck.

Good luck with the job hunt. I always liked shift work though....I've been on days for quite awhile.

There ya go, Sunshine! Doing good things for yourself. You deserve some pampering.

Kerry I have left him alone for awhile now. Do you need to catch up on my threads?????lol
BUT I DO still think ALOT about him. I cant help it, its soooo hard not to.
I dont get to talk to him at all.

I can go days and do sooo good. Stay in a good mood and all, then bam one day out of the blue, its like its the first day of this mess.
Does anyone else do this or have done this?

Thanks Kimmie!

Grace O, are you still married?
How much does a DB coach cost?

I do this all the time...out of nowhere the memories come back and hit me right in the face....when that happens I ask the Lord for his help in prayer and peace is upon me once again....by his grace and mercy does that happen.....I thank God everyday for that......

It sure is hard.

I had the opportunity to speak to my xh today. The conversation lasted ever bit of 2 min or so.
It was about my vehicle that is on a loan he pays. I am having some problems with vehicle.
We also spoke about our sons birthday coming up soon.
He was nice and answered all my questions. Not overly nice, just not hateful. I could tell he wanted to get off the phone quickly. I could tell he didnt mind speaking to me but only briefly. He started to get angry *at himself* during the end of the conversation. I say this because its the same pattern he had after we would be intimate at the beginning of this. He even told me once. He wants to speak to me then gets mad at himself for talking with me. I feel this is why he wants to make the conversation quick. I said my thank you and hung up. I stuck strictly to the point. When he hung up he didnt even say bye, but thats ok.
I can tell you from talking to him, he is still fighting something. He is struggling within himself. He is happy with gf, but still wants to communicate with me, but he is fighing it. It is a gut feeling I have, and I dont think I am wrong. I know him.
I will not speak to him again for a couple months, but I do feel I need to keep in touch just a little. I want to win back his trust, I think he will need me in the future.
I do still love him very much at this point. I am praying and I believe GOD is gonna move in my situation.
IRMAC please keep us in your prayers as I will you.
GOD is GREAT! and I think GOD for seeing a little bit of my h in him today.

guess no ones interested huh? $\:\($

sl
Im glad you had a pleasant conversation with your X
I do understand the need you feel to try to keep him in your life and win his trust
the crises will take a long time and over time your consistancy of not nagging begging or confronting I believe gives them a sense of trust
at the same time you seem like you are doing waht you can to move ahead with your life
that is the important part
and in time you may care less and less about the connection to your X
I care less now than last year

good luck
peace

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

but I do feel I need to keep in touch just a little.

May I ask why you feel this need? or better yet, ask yourself why you feel this need. Be honest with yourself.

Quote:

I want to win back his trust, I think he will need me in the future.

You can't control this, or force it. You have to let it go.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I want to win back his trust, I think he will need me in the future.

And you are going to do this by going against his wishes of NOT speaking ?

This reverse phsycology crap is confusing.....

Move forward.....not sideways..

How cool would it be for him to have to call YOU for all of that info, and then you don't answer......

Just wondering...

Quote:

I could tell he wanted to get off the phone quickly

Do something totally opposite on what he expects. If you call him for help with something, say thank you and get off the phone as soon as you can. He will expect you to ramble on. It will get him thinking.

If he calls you for something...either let it go to voicemail and call him back at a later time (also makes him think) or answer his question and say you have to go.

Do a total 180 from what he expects.

Originally Posted By: trapt

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

but I do feel I need to keep in touch just a little.

May I ask why you feel this need? or better yet, ask yourself why you feel this need. Be honest with yoursel.

Trapt I think I am scared that he will NEVER call, and I will never see or talk to him again, so I try to keep in touch every once in awhile.
I am afraid he could go forver with reaching out to me for anything, even a simple phone call and this scares me.
I miss him sooo much and I still love him. I havent been touched by another man in over 20 years and it just doesnt feel right to lose him forever. You asked for honesty and there you have it.

Originally Posted By: T2SP

Quote:

I could tell he wanted to get off the phone quickly

I try to do this. I tried to end the conversation before he did and he beat me to it. We only talked for around 2 and a half min., I got to ask only a couple questions.
Conversation went like this.

XH-Hello
ME-xxxx?
XH-Yea
ME-I think I may have to trade my vehicle (its in his name).
(I then explained why).
XH-It's just your brakes.
ME-You think so?
XH-Yep, (the next part was said sarcastily) You probably need
to get someone to look at em'.
ME-O.K... then I asked about insurance on our house.
XH-Insurance is thru xxxx and we have xxxx.
XH-Well I'm gonna go.
ME-Are you Planning on taking son out of town for his birthday
(the reason I asked this, is because for the last few years
they have went fishing for a few days for sons birthday.
XH-I dont know yet
ME-Well he wants...(I told him what son wanted)
XH-Well I am not getting him that.
ME-Ok, well Thank You xxx. Talk to Ya Later.
XH-(said nothing, just hung up)

How did I do?

I dont have to worry about him calling me.
He maybe has called me 3 times in 8 months. It was always me calling him.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I miss him sooo much and I still love him. I havent been touched by another man in over 20 years and it just doesnt feel right to lose him forever.

Sunshine, I agree with everything you say. I'm the same way, I still love my xh. At least you get to talk with yours, I haven't talked to mine in over a year & now I understand he is in another country with OW.

It happened really fast for both of us!

I'm thinking about you!!

(((HUGS)))

Thank you nlt.

I am just sitting here relaxing and some things just crossed my mind and I wanted to post them.

For one, I CANNOT believe that my xh has given up the one thing he loved most other than his family and that is his love for fishing. During the years we were married he always took time off to go fishing with his buddies for a week...guy time! He also would take my son for his birthday when he was old enough.
He would ask me on Thurs. nights, do you care if I go fish this tournament. I would always say, you know I dont care. His buddy would pull up with the boat and we had this little thing we always did. I would say if you dont "win" you are not going back and he would say OK and laugh. He started winning, so we did this for luck. He said fishing relaxed him, gave him a release from the stress of work (police) and Fire Dept. (where he was a vol. chief). My xh did have alot of responbilities, but I always thought he enjoyed it and I think he did, but when he lost his job he became very very unhappy inside. He didnt show it but he was sooooo disappointed. He would say things like "its the best thing that ever happened to me, I am sooo stress free, and me and Renee have gotten along better than we ever have." He would say this and I would agree. I know he was trying to save face and be strong and not let it show. I really dont know why he put the part in about us getting along better. I guess cause alot of people know that being a cop and or fire chief can add stress to a marriage, not to mention everything else. He was so hiding it though, it didnt lesson the stress but made it sooooo much greater.
Although I wont tell him now, (maybe someday), but he has disappointed me so much by running away. He could have been jobless and we could live in a camper in a park and I would never have been this disappointed. He ran away from the stress and responsibility of it all.
He said to me a few weeks ago that he thought we had a pretty good marriage, and that he never planned on getting remarried at all, especially not this soon. He said everything that happened to us was 50% his fault.
Ok just wanted to write down my thoughts.
Thinks for listening.

Renee

Renee,
Depression works in mysterious ways...they do not think clearly and it's fight or flight and many of them will run away. I just recently had a high school classmate, diagnosed with severe depression hang himself....good job, lovely family, debt free, etc., but the one thing that threw him over the edge was laying people off at work. There is no rhyme or reason to their way of thinking when they are depressed. The only way out for most of them is to run, but running doesn't solve the problems. Some will understand this as they muddle through their day; others won't.

Your xh has admitted that he was 50% at fault for the failure of the marriage....that's something....most won't admit it. There may come a day when you'll have the opportunity to talk to him in a very rational manner about the walking away, but it's going to be a long time and you will need to follow his lead on that. For now, you need to keep a journal so that you have some place to keep your thoughts written down and refer back to it from time to time to see where you are in the healing department.

It's a holiday weekend....I do hope that you have planned some things to do w/your son and nephew. Your focus on your xh needs to start taking a back seat because your family needs your attention and you need to take care of yourself. Allow God to work on your xh and help him find the answers that he is searching for so that he can heal.

Snodderly thank you for stopping by. I thought you were not going to post to me anymore.
Somedays I feel like I am healing and then others I dont. It just comes out of no where and I end up depressed. I had to work today but tomorrow I plan on cooking out somewhere with somebody.
My focus is still on xh, not so much other woman, as for I have realized something. My xh is living and engaged to a woman that I think he is settling for. I have come to the conclusion though that he is in love or fasinated with another. I, as you know, have decided to stand for my family and marriage...but the sad thing is, if my xh and gf broke it off today, I dont think our marriage is what he would pursue. I think it would be this other woman, that he once went out with. Let me tell you a little further into this........
Awhile back I said to you all that the "ow" was trying to befriend me, well this is the woman I am talking about. She is the one that I emailed early on in my sitch and after speaking with me, she stopped the relationship with my xh.(She didnt know we were still married). She says she was going to anyway but just moved it up. She has since been calling me and we have got to be friends. We will go out to eat and she will always pay. She is constantly doing nice things for me. She wants me to heal and move on. She DOES NOT LIKE my xh at all and, to me and others, has not got a very nice opinion about him. She really is nice. I dont usually befriend someone that has slept with my h, now xh, but she seemed nice. Just lately though It has started bothering me a little. I still think alot of her but some things are starting to settle on my mind. For one, I am beginning to think alot about her "sleeping with my xh", and lately I have realized my xh probably would run to her, instead of me, if she would take him back....and she agrees!
I think this bothers me more than I think. I also think I became just good friends to her to hold on to a little piece of my xh. She works with xh, therefore keeps me informed. I know this cant be good. She saw my xh and gf last night and said my xh was peering over my xh and looking at her several times. I cant figure out why she tells me this. I mean the part about how my xh is still into her. (not in so many words, but you know what I mean). Its ok to tell me how much he was wrong in what he has done but all this stuff about her hurts me.
I did tell her how I felt and she said she was sorry, that she would never have him. BUT he would have her, at least I think he would.
I think I have gotten use to her keeping me informed about him, without even realizing what I am doing. She told me lately that he looks miserable. I never get to see him, so I am using her eyes...so to speak.

Snodderly as for spending time with my family. My older son stays in his room most of the time and only comes down for just a few min. then back up again. He usually stays on the comp. playing games. My nephew likes to spend time with our aunt on weekdends, so I am pretty much on my own. I have no one else other than my aunt and cousins near me. I have friends, but most of them have families to do things with on most occasions. (This is part of the reason why I got close to the ow, she is single too). I do intend to cookout though.
Go ahead and give me advice, but be as gentle as you can. $\:\)$

Ditch the woman. She's trouble and she's using you and your xh to get what she wants. Anyone who goes to such lengths to tell you about your xh and that he's still into her....well..that's it for me. I don't care how nice she's been because she's after something and that something is information. If she's bringing you information, you can surely bet that she's taking information right back to your xh as well. Yes, she wants to see you move on and get a life because she is waiting in the wings on your xh to ditch the youngster. This woman does not care about you for if she did, she would not be talking to you about such things, especially sleeping w/your xh.

Renee, step up to the plate and ditch her. You are better than that and you do not need to have people of this caliber in your life. You are only as lonely as you make yourself. Start making plans w/your family and get out there and do something. Pack a lunch and go to a park, go to the local bookstore and hang out. This time of year always brings out free activities. Take one step today and tomorrow two steps.

It's time to take back your life and only you can do it.

I agree, this woman is not who you think at all, please take this advice....What about joining a bible study or divorcecare class? You then can be around others who have experienced what you have and in a much more healthy way. Please exit this relationship fast....this woman is sick please know her behavior is not normal

I agree with snodderly and graceallday.

This woman's "frindship" with you doesn't pass the smell test. The elephant in the room screams, "What is she getting from her relationship with you?"

Only you can answer that.

Snodderly, grace and sleeper.....
I agree with you all. BUT I do not believe she wants my xh, she has had plenty opportunties. She broke it off with him and when he broke up with this gf the first time, he called her and she had a chance then but didnt take it. Then xh and gf broke up for 2 more days and nothing happened then.
I do agree though that this is a bad relationship, because I do not agree with the things she does. She has been with several guys since her divorce and doesnt care for one night stands. I am sooooo opposite of this. I dont understand why she is constantly talking about how gross and terrible looking my xh is.
She is a VERY confident woman and tells me I need to be as well.
She says " I need to get rid of the WOE IS ME attitude".
I probably do. I am such a good hearted person, I try to find the good in everyone but I am ready to move on with my life.
I dont think I can continue to be friends with someone that slept with my husband. I thought I could do this but now I am thinking differently.
I guess you all think I am really crazy. Like I said, I think the only reason I started talking to her is because she brings me info without me even asking. I dont need this either.
On one positive note, if my xh is peeking over his gf's shoulder to look at her then what does that say about his gf and his relationship...he obviously hasnt changed.
My relationship is sooooo much different than he has with these women.
He even told me once, if you can believe him, that they were not marrying material. They were just someone to have fun with, that if he wanted to be married he would be married to me. BUT yet he is getting married to this girl. I do think I am safe to him and more like motherly in his eyes. They are fun to him and he is looking for fun for now.

Thanks guys!

You cant move forward and on to a new life if you converse in gossip with the other "nice" woman.

And you have to stop being shocked about what your X is doing. So he gave up fishing for now - he is in love and getting married - nothing shocking there.

I get the feeling, from what you write, that whenever you get a small amount of information about your X, you over analyze and obsess about it.

You must give up all hope now of wanting your XH to return. That is really the only way for you to change your life and have, as a side effect, the possibility for a rekindling some years down the road. He is not coming back any time soon.

You need IC, stat. A professional would tell you in no uncertain terms how unhealthy this is, and you might just listen to him/her. That woman is poison.

Originally Posted By: Andabelle

You need IC, stat. A professional would tell you in no uncertain terms how unhealthy this is, and you might just listen to him/her. That woman is poison.

I agree andabelle. Why do you say she is poison. I mean I basically know why, but just wanted to hear your version.
What exactly bothers you about her?

I have occasionally been forced to interact with my H's former OW (the OW who preceded the one he's boinking now), whose mutual EA with him was 8 years ago (they are still on the same bowling team, can you believe it??? he flatly refused to cut ties with her!), and the best I can do is to grit my teeth and act civil to her. I feel a little sorry for her H, who is the same age as my H (she is 15 years younger), even though I don't respect him because he was still M to his first W (I think they were already separated) when he and OW started dating, right after she and my H "broke up."

I don't think he knows about her R with my H, because he is very possessive of her but seems perfectly friendly to my H and apparently hasn't objected to them being on the same bowling team.

Ah, I see that I have seriously digressed...sorry about that. The point I was trying to make is that even though the R I was talking about (H and former OW) was (as far as I have been told, although I'm definitely not taking it as gospel) an EA and not a PA, I can barely stand to be in the same room with her. I cannot remotely imagine being friends with anyone who slept with my H while he was M to me; I don't care how nice she seems to be. I hope I won't step on too many toes by saying this, but nice people, decent people, people with integrity...don't participate in adultery, in my world. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm utterly convinced that those two things are _completely_ incompatible. And yes, that means my H is not a nice person; hopefully he will be different some day and will regain his integrity, which at the moment is completely shattered.

I agree, if you feel that you need to keep up a R with this former OW, you would be best served by some serious counseling. Maybe she has repented and wants to make amends, but I can't see anything good coming out of your having a R with her, and I see a LOT of potential for really ugly stuff. Do yourself a favor and replace her position in your life with a woman your H hasn't slept with...surely there must be a few of them.

I hope I haven't offended...I wish you only the best.

Peace,
Dawn

Dawn I do agree with everyone that has posted to me. I do want to clear up that she didnt really have a relationship with my xh. They only went out for 3 weeks or so, on weekends. She had no idea we were still married. After I spoke to her she did stop seeing him but they remained sorta friends, because they work together. We met one day when she came into where I worked and then started talking on the phone. She told me alot of stuff that my xh had said, mostly lies. I then visited her home and met her 2 young kids. She was and has been very nice to me. She is divorced and her xh did her the same way, so we alot to talk about. I do have to admit, it was the hardest thing to do, sitting across from her and knowing my xh slept with her.
Everyone says dont blame the ow, so I tried not to, it helped because she was nice to me and understood how I felt.
Lately something has changed. I have been thinking alot about what happened with her and my xh. I am not as comfortable as I was in the beginning, which is odd to me, because you think it would be the other way around. I would have thought the more time I spent with her the more comfortable I would become.
I think this shows how upset and torn apart I was. I was willing to be friends with a woman that selpt with my h. She works with him and is constantly telling me how he dresses and what he says and does at work. Even if I dont ask, she still tells me.
I personally think this is why I have continued the relationship with her. I dont talk to or see my xh, so she is my connection to him.
I have recently decided to cut off my relationship with her. I dont want to upset her, because she does still work with xh and I dont want her to make up lies and carry tales to him that might not be true because she is upset with me, so I am slowly getting away from her.
I guess this makes me pretty pathetic doesnt it.

Not pathetic, IMHO...smart.

Take care of yourself.

Peace,
Dawn

Dear Sunshine,

Hi I dont know you, but ive read a little, about your friendship with this OW (brief as it was.) unlike some, im gonna give her the benefit of the doubt here and say perhaps she really is a good person who really does wish to be your friend... you say she didnt know he was married... ok. then it makes sense to me that being your friend would be good REVENGE for her hey, so I actually believe that.

thats the only reason you should ditch the friendship... I think she might be, even if UNCONSCIOUSLY, out for a little bite, out for a bit of revenge, on your h. this could defintely be true if she didnt know he was married.... um, that would ENRAGE me. if shes basically NEVER done anyhting like that before and is a good person imagine how you'd feel. FOR SURE you'd be bitter, to be put in the role of bad guy when you never ever once saw yourself there. I think shes trying to make up to you, by telling you all about ex. in her mind, its both revenge on him, and reparation to you.

so fine her motives are probably ok all in all.

but still not healthy at all for you. only bc, it keeps you dwelling him him, and all you two have in common is HIM... omg how he'd LOVE THAT. what an ego trip eh?

if you think shes quite nice and like her enough then be totally honest with her and say that you truly apperciate her efforts and no longer blame her but feel its really unhealthy for you to be friends with her and talking about x. and it is. i bet you feel rotten after your together. enough answer

you sound like a really kind hearted, lovely lady and of course in your mind this woman has done nothing really wrong if she didnt know he was m, but for all YOU know, shes either still stuck on him or AT LEAST fixated on some kind of twisted REVENGE and thats not right now is it.

get away frm her for your own health... she can deal with her own too...

xoxoxo

eh I guess what im trying to say to you in short is, you dont really know what her agenda is....

none of us need friends like that... unhealthy...

Renee,
Your xh did have a relationship w/this woman, even if it were only for three weeks. His relationship was both emotional and physical....

Whatever her motives are, be it just being a friend or actually getting revenge, you do not need this woman in your life right now. You need people who are positive and are not bringing gossip back to you about your xh. You cannot move on with this type of gossip going on most of the time when you are w/her.

Meet up with some of your church members, do something different w/your time. Yes, I know you work odd hours and are tired, but you know what? One step at a time and when you do start doing something different, your whole attitude changes and you start looking forward to each day.

Start taking back the control over your life...leave people on the curb who are bringing you gossip and keeping you focused on your xh...it's not healthy.

You are are right and I know what I need to do.
It will be so much better when I have more money and more time to do things at a normal hour of the day.
You know what someone said to me last night...they said that they were thinking back to when me and my xh got maried 20 years ago. He was driving an old crappy van and living with his mom when I met him (nothing wrong with living with mom), but the van was crappy. We got married and accomplished soooo much. Nice home, nice vehicles, a nice life basically.
Now is back to driving a old car again.
Not that an old car matters, but its like he has stepped back in time and reversed his life.

I dont know if I ever told you all this, I forget details sometimes, and here details are VERY important because people need both sides of the story to give a correct opinion.
After my xh dropped the bomb we live together at right 3 weeks or so. We didnt sleep together. He even told me he wanted me to keep coming to him for my needs. He said he wanted this, because that causes people to go elsewhere. I was like WHAT?
This did not make sense to me at the time, because he just told me he wanted to seperate. That shows how mixed up he was.
When we finally seperated into different houses, he cried.
I cant help but believe he did not just walk away and this is a mlc. I know it doesnt really matter except maybe I have a chance at saving my family one day.
Either way, I am going on with my life.
I do still think about him and pray for him every day.
I do still love him, and alot of my family and friends dont understand that and think I am crazy.
I am sorry guys but I still want my family back. If this makes me crazy then so be it. I cant help it.
I dont sit and constantly dwell on this. I get out and go and I have a life. I just want my family back soooo bad.
I am sure you all can understand.
I am off to Church to praise my GOD!

Hugs,
Renee

Not only go to church to praise God, but also ask him for guidance and assistance in finding your way. Ask him to provide you the strength to reach out to others in our church for assistance. Ask him to assist you in letting your xh go so that the both of you can go on your separate travels in order to meet back at the fork in the road at a later time.

Ask him to provide you with the stength to help you with your son and nephew. For those two young men need you now more than ever.

Thank you Snodderly you always are here for me and know just the right things to say. What I like about you is you are honest with me but in a nice way, not so harsh. Trying to make someone realize what they need to be doing is ok, but coming off so harsh sometimes can be so upsetting...especially when your world is already turned upside down.
I had a good Church Service tonight. Tonight they had sort of a Bible Study. It is nice sometimes to just hear God's Word.
I do reach out to others, I have never had a problem reaching out. By the way I write, you should know that by know.lol
I have asked GOD to heal me. I also pray for my xh, son and nephew as for many others as well.
I do hope soooo much that xh and I get a chance to speak again one day, to sit down and have dinner together and become friends.
He use to agree with me that we had to become friends before anything else could happen. Maybe he was just agreeing for the sake of hushing me up, I dont know, but its the truth, we have to become friends.
Snodderly its been over 8 months since my xh left. A very lonely 8 months. I sometimes cant believe its been that long. I still cry every now and then. I dont usually cry myself to sleep. The nights seem to be the loneliest time of the day for me.
I did ask my paster tonight if he knew of IC, he gave me a name, he said he didnt know how much it costs but he thinks it goes by your income. I hope so.
I want to reach out to my son, but he pretty much as shut himself down and doesnt want to discuss his dad. If I even ask him if he talked with his dad lately he gets upset. If he knows I am praying about our family being restored, he will tell me that hes never coming back and to get real.
He wont ask his father for anything! He is scared to ask for anything. He always uses a very very nice tone with his dad and when he does work up courage to ask for something he says stuff like "that ok dad dont worry about it.", when his father tells him no.
I dont want my son to live in fear of losing his father.
When I was calling my xh, my son would say mom stop it you are going to make him stop talking to me to. He is so scared, I know he is. He says he talks to him almost every day, so that is something.
When do the thoughts of the past stop? Am I not moving along as others have? It seems that no matter what I do and no matter how much I do, I still think about xh and still love him.
I cant get angry and stay angry at him.
I dont have it in my heart.

I also wanted to ask if anyone else has felt this way.
I think one of the reasons I cant let go of my xh is because I have it in my mind that no one else will have me.
That he is the only one that can ever love me.
I honestly think this and so I fight soooo hard for him.
I believe he could do anything to me and I would fight to win him back. I know this is becuase I think he is the only one that can ever love me.
If he cant love me than how can someone else?
Just being honest.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I want to reach out to my son, but he pretty much as shut himself down and doesnt want to discuss his dad. If I even ask him if he talked with his dad lately he gets upset.

Stop asking....stop putting him in that position. Let him know you are there for him if he needs you and leave it at that.

And NO more drive bys!!

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

This is good. Honest is good. THIS is what you need to focus your energy on. You are worthy of someone else's love. Keep working on you.

Down the road, if your ex ever did decide to come back, you wouldn't be ready. Work on this, I'm not a therapist, and this is not a diagnosis, but it sounds an awful lot like Co-dependency.

Renee,
Stop trying to talk to your son about his father. Your son doesn't want to hear it. Instead, talk to your son about his interests and what he wants to do with his life. Believe it or not, but your son is suffering too....not just you. Start taking some time and look at the bigger picture.....you have two boys living with you that need/require your attention....they are tired of hearing about your xh and how you miss him. It's time to start focusing on them and what they need from you.

Friendship is something that may come about 2-5 years down the road. The cooling off period, as they call it hasn't happened yet and the more you push for contact, the longer it will take. You have to give this man time for the euphoria of breaking loose from his marriage to cool off. The newness of a new relationship w/a younger woman has to wane. It won't happen if you in any way interfere. BTW, the counting the months since all of this began doesn't help...it makes it seem like years and years. It's hard to break the habit, but you need to look forward, not backward.

A lot of children live in fear of losing their parent when they walk out the door. Some feel like they are at fault for the parent living, others know that the parent will not spend time w/them or provide for them (such as your son in this situation). The only thing you can do is be there to listen, do not ask questions. Your son may not feel safe in opening up to you because you've reacted in a negative way around him. It's important for your son to have a "safe" person to talk to about his situation. One thing you will need to learn on this journey is to strengthen your listening skills. Listening is one of the tools of the trade when dealing w/people, especially those in crisis. Your son needs you to listen, not ask questions or provide comments...listen to him and learn not to have knee jerk reactions.

His father will regret all of this as your son grows up because there is absolutely no way to recapture the time lost during this crisis.

You will always have thoughts about him. In time, they may fade, but something, i.e., music, film or something the two of you use to do together will pop into your head. However, if you are sitting around just thinking about him all of the time, well...thoughts of him will never fade. That's why it's very important that you find things to keep yourself and your mind busy. No one is saying to stay angry at him.

BTW, I have not seen anyone be "harsh" with you. They have all given you honest answers...answers/responses that you did not want to hear. You must remember, we all have been down the road you are traveling and everyone has attempted to guide you in the right directiion. No one, I repeat, no one has given you wrong information.

Snodderly I wasnt trying to point out that anyone has been harsh with ME. I have heard people be harsh, and not just on this board.
Also I dont talk about how much I miss my xh to my son. I did this at first, but I stopped that immediately.
All I do is try to get him to talk to me about anything. I have asked him if he has plans with his dad and I have at times told him he should go spend the day with his dad. BUT I d.ont pursue this daily. I mainly just try to talk to him about anything. I will ask him what his plans for the day are or I will ask him what he would like to eat. I ask him about the job hunt, just anything, but he shuts me down. I then just let him be.
He says his dad is looking at getting him a job somewhere so I will let them handle that. I try to not pressure him, but we sure could use the income. I would love to just sit at the dinner table and discuss the day but that aint happening anytime soon.

Snodderly I was afraid you were going to say 2 to 5 years. Boy thats a long time to wait to be friends with someone you have loved for over 20 years. Someone you shared your whole life with, someone that knows you from top to bottom.
And when I mean wait, I dont mean sit around do nothing kinda wait.
It just seems so long.
If my xh does speak to me, its always at work and always quick.lol

Not only do you need to be speaking to someone, but your son does as well. He may be depressed and needs some assistance in that area. He shuts down because he may feel like you are grilling him about what he's doing, etc. No more questions about plans w/his father, etc. I know that many people shut down when asked about finding a job. Your son may feel like everything his hopeless and he needs counseling to help him. Sitting in a room all day, playing computer games, is an excape for him from the real world. He's depressed about a lot of things.

Yep, it takes about 2-5 years for the cooling off period after a divorce....I read that somewhere when I was going through the divorce. My attorney said give it two years and he would be contacting me. He was pretty much on target w/the timeline. The walk away has to go through the extreme euphoria of freedom in order to realize that you and the relationship weren't the problem. Now, whether or not they reconcile totally, that depends upon the couples and the situations. I certainly wouldn't sit around and wait on your xh. Eight months isn't a long time at all in the timelines that most of us have dealt with...you are still a "youngin" in the scheme of things. That's why it's important not to count the days, weeks, months...it makes it seem forever in a day.

Yes, I understand very much so about the calls at work and him making them quick. Mine use to do that as well....it's their way of contacting us and they know that we cannot keep them on the phone or discuss personal issues w/them while we are at work. BTW, no more driving by his place....you are stalking when you do this!

Make today the first day of a new chapter...do something different, even if it's cooking your son his favorite meal...it's time to turn the page in your book and start looking forward.

Sun,

Do you play video games? I ask this b/c it might give you a way to connect with your son. If you don't, do you both read or watch movies? I use all these avenues as a way to talk with my D's about things. Just everyday stuff. it takes their minds off "reality" for a minute and mine love to "teach" me about gaming (I stink).

HUGS

Renee, you have to live your life from this point on thinking that your XH will not talk to you any longer. I'm not trying to be negative with that remark, just trying to point out to you that if you continue wondering what if, or when, you will let your life pass you by. Move forward and if he wants to talk to you in the future, and if you want to talk to him, great, but if not, at least you won't be wasting your time. I for one refuse to speak to my XW. I am not bitter by taking that stance, I have just closed the door permanently on that chapter in my life, I have totally moved forward and I want nothing further to do with her. I'm not suggesting that you do the same, but I do believe that you need to move ahead.

Maybe it is a guy thing of not wanting to speak anymore with our X's. Braveheart, my brother and my father all have no contact with their X's. If it were not for the kids, I would be so very happy to never ever speak to my XW again.

As Snodderly says Sun, do you want to continue waiting around thinking for the next 2-5 years that your H may (very small chance) decide to come back?

Guys I would love to play video games or watch a movie with my son, but he has never been one to interact with me. He always did manly things with his father. His father was his "Hero".
I dont grill my son about anything, I very seldom ask him about his plans with his dad. I do that every now and then, hoping he will want to go spend time with his dad. I have no idea, if his dad even asks him to, but I wish he would get out of the house.
I have, in the past begged my son to do something with me, go out to eat or anything. He just doesnt want to, so I let him be.
Yes I do think we both need ic but that aint gonna happen, he is too much like his father in that aspect, he, in his opinion, doesnt need anybody to tell him how to think or live his life.

Kerry and Brave, I sometimes wish I could close that door forever with my xh. I wish I didnt still care.
Maybe it is a guy thing about not wanting to talk to xh, but maybe its the guys that have been dumped on and walked away from.
Kerry you are dating still? That helps alot, I would imagine, for you to close the door. Brave, same with you, if you have someone else, of course its easier.
I, on the other hand, have not been out with anyone. I have talked to some guys, but either they are sep, NOT DIVORCED, or they are after one thing...in my opinion. NOT HAPPENING WITH ME.
I dont want to be alone, but nothing has come my way. Plus everyone says I am NOT ready, and maybe I'm not.

Hugs!

< Maybe it is a guy thing of not wanting to speak anymore with our X's
Maybe. I think its due to the extent of hurt and betrayal caused you. I've gotten to thinking that way after giving the W over 2 years of my sincere hope that she is not the scum bag she turned out to be; now I have no doubt about her. She once said "let's be friends". What???

I don't think it's so much a guy thing. I really struggle with talking to H. Most of me would just like to tell him to F off and never come around. We have D's though. <Sigh>. So much for the easy road for me.

If you still miss your H (and I know you do) you aren't ready to date. I was taught that I should always wait a month for every year I was with someone before dating again. I don't have any clue where the time frame came from, but it always worked for me with boyfriends. It gave me time to sort out my stuff before moving on. With this mess, I may need more than a month per.

Hang in there sweetie. HUGS

It's not a guy thing, it's called human nature. True men and women communicate/think differently, but when it comes down to it, there are some things that can only be chalked up as human nature.

When someone you know, love and have been w/for some time does the things that they are doing, it is very hard to digest the information. They become foreign to us because the behaviors are so out of character from the people we knew. We've been hurt and rather than lash out at them, some of us tend to step back and just not have that much contact w/them and when we do, it is uncomfortable talking to them for they are different in personality and yes, we aren't even sure how they will react to what we are telling them. So, no it's not just a "guy thing", it's the same w/both sexes.

If you are still missing your spouse a lot, then you are not ready for the dating scene. You first, need to find a way to heal and accept that he's gone for a while, in some cases forever, and then find your balance once again. Once you can be happy living on your own and like the person you are, then you are ready for dating. You do not want to carry all of your old baggage into a new relationship.

I think it is easier to just step back. They are totally different, many times irrational and emotional and extremely self absorbed. The LBS is the last person they will listen to in most cases anyway and there is a level of discomfort there. You have no idea what they will say or do next.

I like to look at them like a unpredictable tornado. If you were to see one coming are you going to try to reason with it? Pretty pointless. Just get out of their way, and let them whirl.

Quote:

Guys I would love to play video games or watch a movie with my son, but he has never been one to interact with me.

Don't take this the hard way. I chalk it up to age. My girls are 15 and 18 and used to do everything with me. Now it is not "cool" to be seen with your mom. They gave up on their dad too. When they go in a store with him, they make him walk around by himself the opposite way they are going.

Quote:

hoping he will want to go spend time with his dad.

Don't push him. He will do things with his dad when he is ready. Maybe he has tried and been turned down by his dad and he is dealing with that.

It is hard enough for your son to adjust to you and your xh being divorced but now there is girlfriend involved and it will take him time to accept that. You know how hard it is for you to accept it, he is probably going through the same thing. He had a lot thrown at him at once.

My stbxh started dating his girlfriend and moved in with her within 2 months. Even though we had been separated for almost 4 years it was still hard for the girls to adjust. They are still having problems. Every step takes time.

Quote:

I sometimes wish I could close that door forever with my xh. I wish I didnt still care.

There is a part of you that will always care. As much as I have been through with my stbxh, I still care. There will be a part of me that will always love him no matter what. What is that cheesy line they use...I love him but I'm not IN love with him. There are times I think I hate him but deep down I know I don't. I just don't agree with some of the things he does.

One of these days all of these men and women who walked away will realize the mistake they made. Some may find out in time to save marriages or to remarry but others will find out it is too late.

Quote:

if you have someone else, of course its easier.

It isn't easier in the beginning. When I first started dating again it was tough. After being with someone for so long you feel as if you are cheating on them. It is totally different than the "teenage" dating from long ago. You also have a wall built up because you are afraid of rejection. It takes time to have that wall knocked down.

Quote:

I dont want to be alone, but nothing has come my way. Plus everyone says I am NOT ready, and maybe I'm not.

No one wants to be alone but sometimes that alone time helps in the end. It makes you appreciate someone when you get them. I love my alone time. I never had "me" time before as my stbxh and I did everything together. If he wasn't around then I had the kids.

You will know when you are ready to date. You can't rush it. Everyone does things at different times. You have to finish grieving your marriage before you can even think of beginning another relationship.

Hey everyone, thanks ONCE again for your advice. I look forward almost everyday to what you all have to say, so please keep posting to me until I am out of the eye of the storm.lol

Yes T2SP I agree with you alot.
My xh also moved in his new gf around 2 months.
Although it was surprising, because he was saying "her time was almost up". He said stuff like that alot, then he started saying, if you are with someone long enough they start to grow on you.
As far as dating, I went out to eat with an old boyfriend, now friend, and felt soooo quilty, like I was cheating...so yeah, I know what you mean.
My son is the type of child that will hide his real feeling toward his dad to be close to him. This is because his dad was his hero growing up...I think anyway.
His dad was always involved with son, fishing, hunting, fire dept, police dept. My son was fassinated by his dad.
He sees that is dad has abandoned me and is soooo afraid he will get upset and stop talking to him also. He use to say and sometimes still does, mom just dont make dad mad or he will stop calling me. So sad if you ask me. I know my son is scared. No child should ever feel that they might lose their parent while their parents are living.

I understand everything you are saying about your son being afraid of his father getting mad at him. I went through the same with my girls. Whenever something was bothering them they complained to me. If their dad made them mad, I had to listen to it. Not that I minded. It took them about 2 years to finally stand up to their dad. They got to the point that they didn't want to walk on eggshells anymore. Now, he knows they mean business.

Just be there when your son does finally open up. He will one day. He just has to do all of this at his own pace.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I do have someone else, but even if I didn't, I wouldn't have anything to do with her. After all she has put me through, I have too much pride in myself to ever have anything to do with her in anyway. I guess maybe that is a guy thing! LOL

BH, what I want to know is how can they go on with their journey if they are living with another woman/man?
My xh seems to be happy with his life. He must be, he has given up everything he loved for her. How can he see the problem he has living this way with her?
I may have asked this before, so forgive me if I am repeating myself. I dont know how to look up my old threads. I would love to list them all but dont know how.

Renee,
If you had done any reading at all of the postings, current and the archives, you would have read that the other woman/man are part of his/her journey. They are self-medicating and if that other person makes them feel good, they will hang w/them. They are not considered the enemy, we are. In their eyes, we are the problem, i.e., why they are so unhappy.

During their journey in finding themselves, they will self-medicate, i.e., it could be booze, drugs, gambling, internet, porn, women, men, experimenting in alternative life styles, change in music, food, drink, clothes, cars, hobbies, etc. Their journey can include one or all of the above. They've gone back in time to a time and place where they were emoitonally stunted and have to grow up from there, which could include experimenting/dating other people.

In time, if he's in a mlc, the facade will crack, but it will not crack until the affair dies a slow death of its own. We cannot interfere in any way. The more we push and try to point out that what they are doing is wrong, the more they will defend the other person and stay w/them.. I suspect that if your xh does marry her, it will take a while for him to realize that his problems followed him and as they say, history will repeat itself.

In order for you to better understand what transpires, I would suggest that you go back and read and/or re-read a lot of the postings in the archives, especially those by MGoBlue. There is a lot of valuable information in the archives and I believe you will find many of your answers there.

BTW, I'm not being harsh, I'm trying to show you where to go to learn about these things on your own so that you can refer back to them whenever you have questions when posters are not available to come here and answer them for you.

Thanks Snodderly.
I am terrible at expressing what I want to say/ask sometimes.
I did read and I read alot still. My memory isnt what it use to be...honestly I cant remember anything anymore. I really need to get it checked probably. I just think its all I been through.
What I was trying to say is, I heard somewhere that the ow/gf slows the progress down. Thats really what I was trying to ask.
I know its part of the progress but someone once said that it makes their journey slower.
AND, I dont think you are being harsh at all.
By the way, do you know how to list all my threads? I would like to so I can go back and read some of what I wrote, when I first started asking questions.

I also wanted to add that my son had spoken with xh and son was saying how good I was doing, or something and xh made a comment "well maybe she's got her a man".
I didnt expect a comment like this coming from him considering how happy he is.....why would he even care, right?

Hey Renee,

First of all I still don't know how to link all of my threads together, so I can't help you there.

Without being harsh, your EX's comment meant nothing, so please don't try and wrap your head around this trying to figure out why he says the things he does.

Renee, he doesn't hate you.

He takes things out on you because there is nobody else to blame for the choices he has made and you are an easy target.

Just stay out of his aim.

Don't do anything to provoke him.

The fact that your Son is still relaying messages back and forth shows me that you still have to work on this area.

Have a good day,

((((hugs))))

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

Renee, its all part of the same picture. As Snodderly told you, they regress to a different time, that's why you see the younger person, different clothes, working out, etc. I still think your XW is a WAS, not an MLCer. I say this because of the time frame involved, but I'm not going back there. Even if they come out of the MLC, which I think is tough to do, the odds of them returning to the former spouse are very slight.I believe that most people don't come out of an MLC, if they did, they would be mature enough to admit wrong, which the vast majority are not!

First of all Thank You BH and BND for your thoughts.
BH, It has taken me a long time, several months, to realize I am living my life on my own now. I did not adjust well at first. It's true every day it gets a little easier, but I still have a bad day every now and then where it hits me in the face that my h walked off and left me and our son. I use to say to him, for unknown reasons, "dont ever leave me", and he would say "you dont have to worry about that EVER, I couldnt imagine how I could live without you and our son"...well what do ya know!
Anyway, is the time frame the only thing you are considering? Isn't there more to consider?
Maybe he is a was with a mlc mind???
BH, I know some do not come back and some do. I dont think there can be any statistics that are correct. I have met several people through work that have experienced this and most h/w wanted to come home and try again. Some got remarried and some wouldnt take them back.
I dont know what GOD has planned for me. I dont know if my xh will wake up...I can only pray that our family isnt done with forever! I WILL NOT stop praying for my family to be reunited.
(I wasnt screaming at you either.lol)

Originally Posted By: brandnewday

Without being harsh, your EX's comment meant nothing, so please don't try and wrap your head around this trying to figure out why he says the things he does.

You are going to scream at me for asking this but here goes.
Why do you say it meant NOTHING?
I know my xh and he probably was being sarcastic, like when he was when he told me not to ruin myself, when he thought I had been with another man. I laughed at him and said oh "like you have". (That was awhile back just so you know.)
He thought I had been with someone and he was throwing it in my face and trying to say for me not to "go down that road"
I have not been with ONE single person and dont intend to be anytime soon.
Maybe it wasnt.
BND do you say this because you think he meant nothing by it or because you know I will try to deciper it? LOL

Renee,
His comment meant absolutely nothing....they say things off the top of their heads and nine times out of ten they mean absolutely nothing to us and they don't always remember what they've said.

I suspect his comment was a projection as to what he's done. In the back of his mind that maybe you will find someone else and leave him alone and yes, appease the guilt he feels deep down for what he's done to you. Please try to stop analyzing every word he says or his actions...they will make absolutely no sense to you, but to him they do. Why? Because he's the one that left and has issues to deal w and until he's willing to talk to someone about them, he will continue to run and make the same mistakes over and over again. You cannot help him.

You will never be able to figure out what he means or why he does the things he does....if it is a mlc, they do things based on emotion, not rational thinking. Go back and reread the threads, for we have talked about this over and over again w/others and yes, in the Archives as well.

Keep the focus on you and the two young men living w/you.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

Renee, you are right in the sense that one size doesn't fit all. I made the comment about your XH not being an MLCer based on what I have seen here. Is that 100% correct? Of course not, but the fact remains that he is gone and you two are Divorced. As for some comming back and some not, well, its been my experience that most do not. Again, your experiences are different than mine, perhaps its in the water of there in London, I don't know! LOL Seriously, based upon what I have seen on the board and what I have seen in life, I would say its a 5-10% chance they do come back, or try to. Is that scientific? Of course not, but when you watch and learn you get a feel for things and most people on here would probably agree with what I am saying, although they probably won't publically. Hope is a great thing, but you also have to look for yourself. Don't waste you life waiting on someone else, live it as best you can. As for GOD showing you the way, I have no doubt he will help you, but the bible is very specific about opening your heart to GOD. I don't think your XH has done that, not sure he ever will.

Ok guys let me see if I can explain. The main reason I want to KNOW if this is mlc or was is...IF this is mlc then MAYBE I will be able to understsand his actions a little bit better and I can go on with my life while standing for my family. If I knew it was WAS and he wasnt coming back for sure then I would pursue other realationships if they come along. Does this make sense. Most people here, especially Jack 3 Beans says to treat MLC like an illness. If my xh was sick, I wouldnt give up on him.
BUT if he just honestly didnt want to be married then I would try to accept that better. He said that people were telling him he was in MLC but he says "why does it have to be MLC, why cant I just be unhappy?" well that is part of MLC unhappiness. Anyway I just wish I knew for sure. I only know what I see, his actions are so much like MLC. BUT as Braveheart has said, he left and divorced me very quickly.
BUT wouldnt a normal person that was unhappy just want to go off get settled (which he has his own home)then date for awhile before moving someone in? And even at that, why would he want to marry her so soon??? I mean I am not in a MLC and I dont want to jump into a wedding dress. I will hopefully date but I dont think I will be getting married after only 3 or 4 months of dating? Is this the norm for people now days, to get engaged so soon?
I do think my xh has anger because of quilt. I do think he feels some remorse for what he did, not only that but how he left me in the condition he did. Not a very good job and a house to try and pay for. I think part of him feels bad for doing this, but he is being pulled away by another very strong force.
Therefore comes the anger and depression.

BH I do understand what you mean by him walking away and never looking back. BUT he has sooooo many traits of MLC.
He is completely opposite of what he was like. He has went from being a 40 year old married man in a comfortable cozy 20 year marriage to a young man in a new relationship with lots of going out to eat, not buying new toys such as cars, but spending all his money on gf, working out, tanning, drinking some, (but not as much, I dont think), and taking off on a weekend trip here and there. NO FISHING, NO BUDDIES, NO FAMILY TIME, NO SON TIME, NO MONEY, NO TRUCK THAT HE LOVED.....NO Husband that I never knew!

Hugs,
Renee

Originally Posted By: snodderly

Renee,
I suspect his comment was a projection as to what he's done. In the back of his mind that maybe you will find someone else and leave him alone and yes, appease the guilt he feels deep down for what he's done to you.

Ok Snodderly, I have a question about this. Everyone says to go on and to act "as if" we are happy and we are doing fine. If we do this, whether its true or not, doesnt that give the spouse a sense of relief? You say deep down they feel quilt, so if we have a life and dont rely on them anymore, and seem to be happy around them or when we speak to them, wouldnt that ease their quilt? Dont they NEED to FEEL QUILTY for what has happened?

Please explain, and thank you snodderly sooooo much.

Sun hi,not snodderly of course, but I can say in my own sitch of MLC the H claimed he wanted me to move on with my life but set things up deliberately in such a way id be so financially destitite id be too much of a burden for anyone - and I highly suspect his motives for that are to ensure I am single a LONG time. so nope, i dont think it makes them feel better I think they are SELFISH.

Snodderly (not wanting to hijack) but interested in what you said about addiction... my own h took drugs first time in MLC with OW. do you think thats a common thing...? yanno, i was more shocked re the drugs than i was her... (says a lot doesnt it...)

Renee, lets just say for argument sake that he is in MLC. I have a question for you, what difference does it make? What does it change? All that I see happening is using that to make excuses and to enable his behavior. Sorry, just being blunt again! LOL Anyway, as far as "feeling remorse" trust me, these people will do every mean nasty thing that they can to you. If you get kicked out of your house or starve to death, they could care less. Its totally all about them and to Hell with everyone else.

BH.... do you truly think, in your oppinion... they ever regret it? I used to. people used to tell me so. now... im beginning to doubt that very much. I think they rewrite history to justify themselves and then live with that story... and I dont think they regret those lies. (ignore me. im depressed today.) but yea i often think that, now.

Fighting Fit, I really don't know, I think probably some people do regret it, but I think most probably don't and even if they do, they won't admit it. I am inclined to believe what you said, they rewrite history and live that story. Bottom line is you have to rebuild your life and move forward. I have seen so many people on this board just waste thier life sitting and waiting for something that will never happen.

Renee,
I want to reiterate that I do not think your xh is in mlc. If you were to get the book that I recommended to you last month called "The Script", you would see that many wahs say the same thing and act the same way...no confusion about anything that they are doing. Your h isn't acting confused in any way, he may have for a bit at first, but he was getting his balance from walking out the door. Your h wants little or nothing to do w/you or the relationship. This is just my opinion.

Do a search on the word guilt in the archives and you might be surprised at the information that is there for your leisurely reading. Start using the search engine on this site and you will find the information that would be most helpful to you in all areas of the wahs and mlcers. Take advantage of the tools that this board offers...you may stumble across information that you've not given a thought about that may be beneficial to you.

Okay, to answer your question about guilt...the more you guilt them, the less they are likely going to want to be around you. When you "appear" to be moving on w/your life and not begging, pleading, crying, whining being clingy, etc., the more likely they will have some contact w/you. Think about it....if you knew you had done something twrong, would you want to be reminded of it every time you spoke to the person because the person is pleading or crying? I don't think so. He is acting like a kid who knows he's done wrong and doesn't want mommy to call him on it.

You have to remember that a mlc situation must be treated differently than a normal situation because you aren't dealing w/an emotionally mature adult. Again, I do not think your h is mlc. Whether I am right or wrong about him, you still need to focus on you and the boys and continue living your life as if he's not going to return. You need to start focusing on what you are going to do w/your life from this day forward and if he should return, then that is the time to worry about how you will deal w/his return....

FF,
Addictions will come in many forms and drugs are just one of the addictions that we have noticed around the board.

Snodderly, so you are saying MLC and WAS acts the same way?
Is their any stories on here about WAS returning?

BH and Snodderly, it matters because MLC is an illness. And
it seems chances are better for returning if it is MLC. I guess thats what I am thinking.
If he is a WAH than chances are he wont EVER be back, right?
Right now, I dont know whether to date in the future, if anyone comes my way, or not.
I want my family back sooo bad. I am sure you all understand.

Snodderly I will try to pick this book up at my library tomorrow.

Snodderly my xh has soooo many of the traits of MLC. He has done a complete 180. And in the beginning you even thought he was so much a MLC. You are right, he isnt confused about what he wants today. He doesnt want me in his life, and if he does want me just a tad, he is letting the gf stop him. This shows weakness to me. He has given up his whole life style for her. Thats why I was leaning toward MLC.
Snodderly, or whomever wants to answer this. Why do you think his new relationship with new gf is so much different. Why do you think he is letting her control him and his life?
When we first married he told me the first night we met that he was going to marry me and we fell in love. He loved me very much, but didnt let me control him. Everybody said he loved me very much and that he would never cheat on me.
My point is, I know he loved me, but yet he didnt give up what he loved for me. (BUT I didnt ask him to either.), the thing is, this girl had to GROW on him he said and now he has become suddenly obsessed with her after their last breakup.
If its not MLC than what is he doing this for?

When you "appear" to be moving on w/your life and not begging, pleading, crying, whining being clingy, etc., the more likely they will have some contact w/you.

Snodderly I quit doing those things 2 months or so ago, but no improvement from him on the contact. He still does not ask about me or call me or anything.
So I am just going on with my life. Confused but moving forward. I will NEVER understand the one thing out of this, and that is the ANGER HE has toward ME?!?
Dont understand it. He cheated, he left, but HE doesnt want contact with ME.

Dear Sunshine,

Just to let you know that I understand where you are. I am not even legally separated less divorced but my H has a huge amount of anger and resentment towards me.
I have no contact with him and this does not move him to contact me.
Yes, my H cheated and left and wants no contact too.
There is no choice but for us to stand up with our dignity and our hope for the future and keep moving forward everyday, small step by small step.
I am not sure whether my H is in MLC or WAS but either way he is not there at the moment and I need to try to live my life well.
Its just a post really to say that you are not alone, I understand and please try to stay strong and full of hope for what can be in the future. For you and your son.

Please take care of yourself and keep posting. there are so many people here who are wonderful, offering and sharing there care and experience.

Thank you for posting. It makes me feel like I didnt know my h at all. I never thought he would ever leave us. He would always say that he couldnt imagine living without us. I really dont think they were just words, I truly believe he meant them.
When he lost his job after 11 years on the force, he just never recovered, even though he put up a front. I stood by him and told him it didnt matter, but it did matter to HIM.
When we seperated, he said he wanted to start over and wanted different companionship. This young girl is what I USE to be. I use to be skinny and full of energy at 26. Maybe that is what he missed. Sometimes I think maybe I should of tried to be full of energy more. Maybe I should have wanted to go out to eat every weekend. I wish I would have known it was this serious with him.
I thought at one time I caught him looking on an internet dating site, but when I walked up he closed it. Now, I am pretty sure he was looking, but I didnt want to nag to him about it. Didnt do me any good not to nag did it.
It's like I thought maybe a couple times he wasnt acting right, but then again I didnt want to NAG!
I wish I could read about some WAH or MLC H's stories somewhere, I think it would help.
Hang in there!

Hugs,
Renee

Quote:

I never thought he would ever leave us. He would always say that he couldnt imagine living without us. I really dont think they were just words, I truly believe he meant them.

That is exactly how I feel. I'm just shaking my head. I genuinely thought this would never happen to us. It never even occurred to me to think about this happening to us. We've never even talked about not being together. How does this happen?

Renee, I have my doubts as to weather MLC is an illness. I know that I am in the minority opinion here, but I really question it. I think people grow tired of thier life and take off to get another one. I do believe that people think they have "missed out" and they end up making fools of themselves, but I don't think its an illness. Anyway, Renee, you must move forward with your life and rebuild it. Please don't sit around and wait for him to "snap out of it" For if you do, you will be alone.

Quote:

I think people grow tired of thier life and take off to get another one. I do believe that people think they have "missed out" and they end up making fools of themselves, but I don't think its an illness

.

Hey BH,

I think many of us, if not most of us have had moments when we have thought about a new life. We get tired of our daily mundane life and think that there has to be something better then this. The difference is that most of us are mature enough and responsible enought NOT to act on it.

It takes either HUGE balls or mental illness to actually act on it and walk out the front door when there is no reason to leave your family other then simple selfishness and self entitlement.

For me, it was easier to believe that my H really had a mental illness. Partly because he really was nuts and had become the complete oposite of the Man I married. Partly because it was easier for me to cope believing that he wasn't in his right mind.

I also think that had my Husband been able to come to me and tell me how unhappy he was, and wanted to work on the Marriage rather then running away it would have been easier to handle. Then throw in the OW, the lies and the deceit.....

This is the part that none of seem to be prepared for, the bomb.It just comes out of left field.

It used to make me wonder how I could have been so blind and not seen the changes or check the cell phone bills, or question some of the things he did.

I am not convinced it is a mental illness either in the true sense of the word.
My x completely changed especially in regard to just abandonning his kids.(7 years before he tried to seek them out.)

He did the sports car,(yes it was red) gym, new clothes etc, spent loads of money and got himself a OW, BUT he kept down a demanding job and even managed to get himself head hunted and pass all the tests, so...

The only explanantion I got was "he wanted a new life and as the kids were grown he thought they had new lives too and he hoped in time I would make a new life, but he knew how hard it would be for me"

Yes I know and have read lots about compartmentalisation !
even so mental illness I am not sure. I so wanted to believe it, to keep the hope alive but I knew he had always had a selfish streak so eventually I gave up with the idea that this was an illness that he could recover from.

8 years on he seems to be ok with his choices, got himself the new life, married the ow and as far as I know (which is very very little) his life is great.
I knew him from age 5 until he was 50+ so know all his childhood, family, friends etc, so no deep rooted issues that I could see.
He just moved on, outgrew us all.

BND, In today's selfish world of "me" and me only, it doesn't take huge balls or an illness, it just takes a pair of feet. To top it all off, there is ZERO accountabilty for anything short of murder in our society. In the pursuit of self-happiness, anything goes. NAEJ, it sucks, no doubt, it seems to me that the LBS takes the worst of it in almost every situation I have read, but you have to move on and make the best life you can.

Nael, how old was the ow?
I am so sorry. Have you moved on and met anyone?
Do you all live close?
Any contact with you?

HUGS,
Renee

Renee, the OW was only about 8yrs younger than me. She had a colourful reputation!
My x and his wife now live abroad. I have not seen him in just over 6 years.
I have spoken to him about 5 times in that time. The last time to tell him he was a grandad,2 years ago.
I have moved on and have a life but no there is no one special in it.
My children all live away but we have lots of phone calls and get together when ever we can.
They all have busy lives and is how it should be, but we are close.

Renee,
Everyone on this board and in real life is entitled to change their minds about things and I changed my mind a while back about your h.

If you obsess about everything the way you do him and his behavior and his future bride, I can certainly understand why he's not in contact w/you. You've got to get a grip on your thinking...you've got to start focusing on the here and now and leave the past in the past. No one knows your h, nor do we know what he's thinking or why he actually left you. There are only two people who could give a good guess as to this and that is God and your xh. We cannot predict what the future will hold for you and your family, but we can say this....you need to get a life and start focusing on something other than him and what he's doing....you are divorced and need to start carving out a life for you and the boys without him in it.

As far as dating goes, from what I'm reading every day from your postings, you are far from ready for the dating scene. No one wants to sit around and listen to you prattle on about your xh and what he's done.

Please schedule an appointment with a therapist. You definitely need some assistance in understanding that you've got to let him go and go on w/your life now.

Snodderly I agree with you, and I appreciate your time you put into your posts to me. I respect your opinion. I know people can change their minds, I understand.
I think about my xh but I dont think about him as much...I dont think. It is true that I have not let him go completely. I dont know if I have read about anyone on here that has let go completely to be honest. Some of the ones that have a new person in their life, well maybe those have, but I dont think the majority has...unless its someone like yourself. It's so hard to do.
Snodderly the reason I keep asking about MLC and WAS is I get mixed up about the two. I know was walks away and some say never look back. BH says because my xh divorced me so soon, this, in his opinion, makes him a was. I have tried goggling WAS, but all that comes up is was and mlc together. This confuses me, it makes me think they are one in the same. I know people say MLC stays confused. My xh has showed signs of both of these.
I guess it all boils down to this. I am scared that we have zero change if he is WAS. SO, I am praying that he is in MLC, which really is just as bad. Regardless this is my way of thinking.
I am trying to hold onto anything that may give a chance for us to reconcile.
Also, I dont see my xh, so he has no way of knowing that I talk on here and that I am still "obsessing". I think as far as he thinks, I have accepted this. Plus, I really dont think he cares right now, the only thing I see him caring about is his new woman. He has given up, friends, his hobbies and more for her. She most be the most important thing in his life right now.
I pray for him daily. I want to stand sooooo bad. I am trying, but at the same time, I am getting out and doing things. I do have fun and laugh again. I just come here to post about my xh.
I will try and start posting things I have been doing for myself lately. I AM doing better, but I DO still think alot about him, and I do still wonder what happened.
Snodderly to tell you a little bit about me and my personality...I am the type of person that hates to lose at anything. This includes arguments, games, sports etc. I DO NOT give up easy. I DO NOT like something to get the best of me.
I will study study study until I figure something out. I think that is what I am doing with my sitch. Agree?
I also CAN NOT stand it if someone is upset with me or dislikes me. It bothers me SOOOOO much and I dont know why. This comes into play also with my xh. I would rather be his friend then not anything at all.....EVEN after what he chose to do.
Is their a name for this? Why am I like this? Is anyone else like this?
I will sit and dwell on something til I figure it out. See what I mean??? I cant let it go. I want to, but its like I have to figure out what went wrong. I have always done this throughout my life in different areas. I dont know if its the dective in me or what. I am a Scorpio and Scorpios are best at being dectives. lol
Anyway just wanted to try and let you understand me a little better. I WANT to get better and let go for now.
I hardly EVER stay home at night. I am always going somewhere or doing something. I dont like to be at home, because when I sit, like I am now, I think, think, think and then I come here to write.
I am getting very tanned.

I am trying to lose weight...this is ALSO HARD!
I work and will soon be starting school.
I am trying to do some Photography again. (I hadnt picked it up since this all happened)
I visit friends and go out to eat.
I am trying to enjoy myself.
This Friday, my son will be 19!!! I can not believe it. He has grown up so fast. I miss him being a little boy and needing mommy. He does however, still kiss me on the cheek from time to time.lol I love it too!
My nephew is getting out of school soon, so we will hopefully get to do things together.
My son is still looking for a job. His dad is trying to help him out, he says.
I sooo hope he goes to college. I want him to.

Thanks again everybody for being here for me.

Hugs,
Renee

P.S. Snodderly I miss the Archives. Have you heard anything?

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I also CAN NOT stand it if someone is upset with me or dislikes me. It bothers me SOOOOO much and I dont know why. This comes into play also with my xh. I would rather be his friend then not anything at all.....EVEN after what he chose to do.

Is their a name for this? Why am I like this? Is anyone else like this?

It's just insecurity eating you up. Everyone desires social acceptance.

Your NEVER going to please everyone all the time. That's just life. Your fighting a loosing battle there.

Renee, being stubborn and not giving up is an admirable characterstic, and I know a lot about that, but when you are dealing with other people, YOU CANNOT CHANGE THEM. The harder you push, the faster they run. I know you want to know "why" who doesn't? Unfortunately, you will probably never really know. I personnally think most of them feel the grass is just greener. Does it turn out that way? Well numbers regarding divorce seem to indicate that it doesn't overall. Does it mean he will come running back if it doesn't work out? Probably not. Its been my experience that in order to do that, they would be admiting they did wrong and most people regardless of cause or need aren't willing to do that.

I know you want answers and to understand why. What will that do for you exactly? The argument can be made that we want them so we can better understand ourselves and learn from our mistakes. I think the truth is more in the realm of so we can fix it. Sadly, everything can't be fixed. Which is why GAL is so important. You can fix and heal yourself. I know it's hard. You're preaching to the choiir here. It doesn't change the fact that it needs to happen.

I tend to agree with bh that not giving up and (sometimes) stubborn can be admirable. That doesn't change anything for you though. Finding a new goal not to give up on will occupy you mind and time. Something to help you stop thinking of him so much. When it comes down to it I think you are (as we all are or have been) looking for him to be mlc b/c it gives you more hope. I used to think I was foolish for hoping under the circumstances. Then I realized that hope isn't false or foolish, it just is. You either have it or you don't. Doesn't mean we get what we hope for. Ever read Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning"? Some food for thought on hope.

Sometimes we just don't get the answers we want and sometimes we think we want them and find out we really didn't.

HUGS

Remember the Serenity Prayer:

Lord,
Grant me the serenity TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

Well guys I think my time on the board is running out. I have come to accept that my xh will not be returning. Why?
Well I have left him alone for a couple months, I know that isnt much, but I have to start somewhere. I called him once about a month ago, or 3 weeks ago maybe, to inquire about insurance on our home and taxes we owe, he talked pretty nice. The conversation lasted about 2 min. I ended it.
Well today I called him because of a serious issue I was worried about with son, really personal and dont want to discuss it here, anyway he answered and I said xxxxx. Click is all I heard, yep he hung up on me before I could take a breath. He was at work, this is how I always spoke with him.
I thought after the last conversation that possibly we were making a little progress in being civil with one another, but I was WRONG apparently.
I just cant imagine why he hates me soooo much. Yes I think about it, it bothers me. To think we will never speak again hurts me and it will in the long run hurt our son.
I called back a few times leaving messages and trying to get him to speak with me, for it was VERY important that I spoke with him before my son came home. I left him messages, but didnt do any good. The last message I left him was that I wanted him to imagine how he would have felt if his mom and dad were to never speak to each other. They are deceased now but I know, as anyone would, it would be very hurtful. I also told him to forget it, I would deal with it myself and that I didnt understand him and that I was disappointed in him. I didnt raise my voice and get angry or anything like that.
I know that I probably should have let it go. But to be frank, I have let everything go thus far. I dont think there is nothing more I can do to change his way of thinking and how he feels.
I have took and took from his attitude and anger until I can not take anymore. I know him leaving his not ALL his fault, but his attitude now IS. I am trying to get along and he wont have nothing of it. He was better before the new gf, but now everything has changed. I will not give up praying for him.
I still have my faith but for now I think I need to get off this board and live my life.
I will probably come back every now and then to check in and speak to everyone.
I appreciate everything everybody tried to do for me.
I just think it is time to start rebuilding my life without him.
I think reading others stories does give me hope but at the same time I think it hold up my progress because I am expecting the same results and getting my hope up. I end up sitting around waiting for it to happen, when in all honesty GOD may have something else planned for me.
Anyway thanks guys, Snodderly and BH, BND and a few others that have been here awhile, BLESS YOU for everything you do.

Hugs to Everyone,
Renee

Renee, one thing you will soon come to realize when dealing with these WAS/MLCERs is it is usually 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards.

I'm sorry about your son, but unless it's a life or death situation I think you are going to have to find a way to deal with it on your own. Don't look to your ex for help because you probably won't find it.

Quote:

I still have my faith but for now I think I need to get off this board and live my life.
I will probably come back every now and then to check in and speak to everyone.
I appreciate everything everybody tried to do for me.
I just think it is time to start rebuilding my life without him.
I think reading others stories does give me hope but at the same time I think it hold up my progress because I am expecting the same results and getting my hope up. I end up sitting around waiting for it to happen, when in all honesty GOD may have something else planned for me

YES! YES! YES! I think you are finally getting it.

Even though these boards are a blessing, sometimes the best thing to do is to take a break from them. I've done it a few times, and still do. I find it helps me heal more everytime I do it. It keeps your focus on where it should be.

I wish you the best, and I am sure God has great plans for you, even though it may not feel like it right now. Put your faith in God. Good Luck!

Hey girl just read your post.....I also thought this way or did..I was always looking for what it was WAS/MLC either way one day it occurred to me it didnt matter what it was...he is gone....for now...see I still have hope ...the man I see now though is so not the same man I married..I dont like him very much..he is selfish,mean,uncaring,a liar....and so many more other things he has become.You must of been praying for me because I have come back to my God.Thank you for your encouraging words. I think we will always have hope tht one day a miracle will happen and they will return...some in here wouldnt agree but I know prayer works and peace comes when we need it the most, when we put God first, above all else...our marriage, our children, our families that is just the way it is and what he commands.Bless you and keep in touch..
And Snodderly in case you are reading this on her post thank you for all the kinds words and advice you have given me..I so hope one day I can be as strong in the Lord as you and as smart about MLC to maybe hepl others like you helped me in my time of need.Thank you

I have to add that my xh spoke with my son, after me asking him NOT TO, and wanted to know what was going on. I asked him specifically not to tell my son I had spoke with him. I am truly dealing with 2 teenagers here. No adult male/father, in their right mind would go behind a mothers back and tell their teenager son what I was doing after telling him NOT to. Instead of being parents, and working together, he constantly is going against what I say.
Done. I will just continue to pray.

Thank You IRMAC and MissH.
Yes I am finally getting the picture and starting to deal with reality. It took me 6 months but I am getting there.
Today is my sons 19th birthday and I had planned on spending it with him but his dad called and made plans to take him somewhere expensive to eat. I feel like it is becoming a "I can give you more" thing. I cant compete with money but I can with love and care. Oh well, I will celebrate when his dad is finsihed with him. I did not let my son see how much it hurt me. He has no idea I was planning a small party. I had to call and cancel some people. I will NOT try to compete with his dad!

I love you all and I will check back in to read any last comments before I go.

Have a Great Weekend!
Hugs,
Renee

Sunshine,

6 mos seems like a long, long time, but it is just a blip in MLC land. To your XH, your barging into his house and the ensuing scuffle happened like yesterday. You wonder why he's so mad at you-- there you go. It takes them forever to let go of ANYTHING. It's not fair, but there it is. My STBX (w/whom I'm getting along very well at the moment, knock on wood) until recently kept throwing every angry/mean thing I said post-bomb back in my face-- I was a horrible person for reacting the way I did, while he hadn't done anything bad to me at all (just left me after 26 years of M, no big deal). This is how they think-- they feel entitled to do whatever the hell they want, irregardless of how it affects us/kids-- and rightly or wrongly, they ARE-- it's a free country, it's not a crime yet to be an a**hole.

Don't waste your time trying to figure him out. You are D. He screwed you over financially, yes? Then you should know not to expect any help from him.

You have to get on with your life. It is okay to leave the door cracked, just as long as you don't have any expectations. He's not a very nice person right now anyway, and you deserve better.

A lot of times it is the medium. You know that the telephone or in person visits are the wrong medium. Use emails from now on to inform him of important issues about S19. Quite frankly, S19 is a man and should handle his own issues.

I have to take your H's side on this. You left him multiple messages and were trying to guilt him. I would be pissed off at you too and if I had a son that was a man I probably would talk to him as a man - "I wish your mother would leave me alone?".

He wants you to leave him alone as he has a new life. Why cant you understand that?

Renee, listen to me on this one..... Don't EVER speak to him again! If he wants to SPEAK TO YOU, its your choice to speak back, but if someone was dead, I would be damned if I would tell him.

Originally Posted By: KerryK

XH doesnt have email.
If my xh would have talked to me when he answered, instead of hanging up, the messages would not have happened. Be an adult for crying out loud.
Listen, teenagers still need their parents, you will find this out, there are sometimes that they need advice regardless if they want it or not. My son can talk to his dad easier than he talks to me. I dont care how old he is or how much of a man he is, if I think he is making the wrong decision about something and wont listen to me, than yes, I expect his dad to step in with advice.
Kerry, just because they are teenagers doesnt mean they know everything. They still need quidence. You will find this out soon enough.
Some people assume when kids are older, they dont need anything from us. Well let me tell you I am 42 and I still need my dad for some things and needed my mother for others. AND my mom and dad was ALWAYS there for me.
Kerry I truly hope you wouldnt do what my xh did. If your wife called with a concern, I hope you wouldnt turn your back just because you wanted to be left alone with your new love. A dad is always a dad to me.

Also, its your choice to take his side on this. I wasnt trying to quilt him into anything, I flat out was telling him it was important to talk with me.
I am a little surprised at your position on this Kerry, but thank you for your input.

Renee

Originally Posted By: Andabelle

This makes ALOT of sense to me. Thank You for pointing out their time table.
I would love to read your story sometime in the future. Right now I am taking a break from these boards to get on with my life.

Hugs,
Renee

Originally Posted By: braveheart

Renee, listen to me on this one..... Don't EVER speak to him again! If he wants to SPEAK TO YOU, its your choice to speak back, but if someone was dead, I would be damned if I would tell him.

LOL love your messages sometimes BH. You are sooo blunt!
Are you on alt. univ or ms?
I would love to chat sometime. I love your honesty. AND we kinda live close.
Dont worry, I will not be trying to contact him soon.
BH, it really hurt me when son chose to jump at the invitation from him.
I am not going to compete with xh over son.
XH was being smart (well so he thought)when we seperated. He told son he had to live with me. It hurt my son, because we would have went with his dad if asked to.
XH knew he couldnt have his gf and such if son was living with him.
Now, he gets to talk to our son everyday ON PHONE. Take him out on special occasions, and bring him back. I have to deal with everything else. I have to lay down the rules (because son still is living with me) and I have to be the BAD parent. I have to loan out the money when son needs it, he wont ask his dad, he says it not his dads responbility to take care of us anymore. (kinda interesting he says this). Son is now looking at xh as a friend instead of parent. I am "the mean mom". It's like when you babysit someones child, you play with it and spoil it, then send it home to be disiplined.
Regardlesss I love my son with all my heart and I am glad he is here with me. I need him as much as he needs me.

Hugs,
Renee

Quote:

last message I left him was that I wanted him to imagine how he would have felt if his mom and dad were to never speak to each other. They are deceased now but I know, as anyone would, it would be very hurtful. I also told him to forget it, I would deal with it myself and that I didnt understand him and that I was disappointed in him.

uhhhmmm......sounds like you were guilt-ing him to me. you keep expecting him to be a responsible parent or friend or co-parent. dont have any such expectations. you keep setting your self up for hurt. havent you heard us all say NO expectations??

Originally Posted By: a new 2moro

Quote:

I know I said I wasnt going to post anymore but I had to reply to this.
Yes I have heard all of you say this, but I guess I was HOPING and PRAYING that
my xh would be different because he was such a good husband and dad before. You
couldnt have asked for a better dad. From day one he changed diapers and did it all. You couldnt have asked for a better husband. He washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms, did his fair share. I guess I am still shocked at the way he has changed. I know people here say he is a WAS and this may be true, but I will tell you this. He has done a complete change. Given up everything he use to love to do what this gf wants. I would have never thought he would give up fishing, but he has. He is in love I guess. I am just still amazed at times I think.
Yea maybe I was quilting him. I didnt even realize it.

I have to add this update so I can get some opinions.
Today my xh called my son and asked for the cornhole boards that we have. My son said his dad and gf and her family wanted to play.
I let my temper get the best of me, because my xh has not given me anything (that I can think of) that I have asked of him.
So I told son, let your dad get his own cornhole boards.
This in turn made my son very angry at ME and he relayed the message to his dad. He said his dad sounded like he was gonna cry, because of my comment...which I doubt he was.
Anyway, after a few minutes I thought about it and decided I wasnt going to be the bad person here. I wasnt going to play his (xh's) games. I did not use the boards and so I called xh and left a message. I told him that YES he could have the boards, and I thanked him and gf for son's birthday presents and said it was nice of them. I was very upbeat and even said, I will talk to you all later.
Well son came back into my room and said dad just called and said you said we could have the boards.
I felt very proud of myself.
Kill them with kindness they say.

Renee, why did you call your XH again after all of that mess the other day?

your doing good, for you right now... dont worry if you feel differntly next week, lol. i felt differently from WEEK to WEEK for the worst part. now, im pretty much ok, except for the 'monthlies' which throw me out.

theres no hard fast rule to your own feelings, they are valid and true and real, but your a woman and a woman has the perogative to change how she feels at any given time.

yea its great to be a woman eh.

Why.....without putting words in her mouth, she hopes beyond hope that her xh is different that those aliens that have flown in before hers.
Renee,
hes not whether its MLC or WAS. Hes as much a jerk as they are/were. yes he was a good man...emphasis on WAS(the word) that man no longer exists and will not again for years if ever, not days,weeks or months Renee.YEARS!
you could have just handed boards to son, not looked for an excuse to call xh.

Honestly, at this point, I don't know what it hurt that she left him a message herself, instead of having S do it.

It's not like her H can file for divorce because he gets pi$$ed about it....they're already divorced.

As long as she doesn't call him about anything but life and death situations in the family, he'll live. If she calls him about petty , unimportant things he'll continue to badmouth and blow her off.

Sun knows, from what we've all told her, that her xh is no different than our spouses/ex-spouses. It doesn't matter who she thought he was...he's not now, and may never have been exactly who/what she thought.

If she wants things to decline, she'll keep up her old habits. If she wants to quit hurting as much and learn to live again, she'll take the necessary steps to do so, and that's concentrating on herself and the kids.

I remember how hard it was to get those 'rose-colored' glasses off. But once they're off, she'll catch on. Right now she's still dealing with denial that this 'thing' has actually happened to her and her family.

I remember how that felt too...you wish you could wake up and it was all a bad dream.

Reality always wins in the end.

I'm still sitting here trying to figure out what the heck a cornhole board is?????? LOL

Cornholioooo...I've heard when my boys used to watch Beavis and Butthead...but what is a cornhole board, and what do you do with it??

Hi Sun- ( you may of left the boards, but just in case, just my 2 cents)
Just passing thru. Not been on the boards for a while, our "generation" of LB for lack of a better word lol have somewhat moved on and usually just check back here every once in a while. ( Keeping in touch now thru FB)

I joined the boards prob. gosh, 6 -1/2 yrs ago, 6 months after my ex up and left out of the blue the day before his 43rd b.day

I have read your posts and the fact I too have one S and he was your S age when my ex left so I somewhat relate.
Unlike your ex mine dragged his feet on the D, (coincidently yesterday was 3 yrs since our D was final!) He had an OW, but didnt move in w/ her till later and is not w/ her now

Reading your posts makes my eyes tear as its so new and raw for you, and unlike me, yours was so quick, that alone must be a shock to you, let alone them leaving but but yours making this new life so quick, and I am so sorry for your pain. (( Sun ))

Let me tell you this tho, I cant tell you what your ex will be like in the future-but mine and so many of our WA here are like yours in they were amazing men at one time, great fathers, thats what makes this even harder! If they were not such stand up men, this prob wouldnt be so alarming nor would it prob be as painful , who knows!
but mine too, very helpful around the house, manager of S's baseball/soccer teams, volunteered at school and church w/ us
brought me home flowers at least once a month, just a wonderful H and father.
He changed, so drastically, he almost morphed and looked different

Ok so 7 yrs next month, he left, now-just now, 7 yrs later he is just showing some semblance of the man he was.

We now can talk and laugh and joke, we go to dinner every so often when S is home from college-
he hit rock bottom a couple of months ago, losing his job( fired actually), a very good job, so he lost a lot, company car, company CC, a 6 digit income ( and I lost my alimony!)and it was something he did very very wrong- maybe part of the rock bottom

he broke up w/ OW last year, said he didnt love her either-(will admit, i smiled over that one, sorry but i'm human )

He has told me recently he is so sorry for the years he has lost w/ our S- and how he wants the closeness back w/ him- he now is going to T (finally!) and even visiting a preacher and .... praying!( when he left he told me he was agnostic,...whatever) says he prays for me and wants me to be able to keep my home. He is much more humble now- not the cocky , arrogant man who stood in the living room 7 yrs ago telling me, he wasnt happy and marriage was not his thing ( after 18 yrs of marriage!)

hes not perfect mind you! Still flakes at calling S when he says but much much better- he has always been financially supportive of him, but as we know , our kids need more, even our older adult children

He has taken trips w/ him this past year.
So I see the man I loved so many years ago- he has not said he is sorry for the pain he has caused me, but sorry for the stupid way he went about things. He may eventually

Now, I did not sit around for him,a few years ago I started dating, as I couldnt sit here anymore wondering,hoping- its a personal choice of course, and I didnt go out to meet anyone, just get on w/ my life- as " if he was never coming back"
I am engaged to a wonderful, terrific man who treats me with respect and love and I hope he feels the same ( think he does :))

People ask, would you of thought about trying again w/ ex if fiance wasnt in your life? and I say NO, no because of the fear it could happen again, and too much water under the bridge, I never thought I'd say that, after how hard I tried and standing for years- but I think I like the love I have w/ F now much more

So just a thought, I was like you, analyzing every little word and action from ex, and crying more tears then I thought a human could- was it a wasted time in my life? no, I needed to do it, and needed to feel that way to really appreciate what I have now
my wonderful partner and a amazing son who respects me, You really do appreciate the high of a new life when you have been in our situation

Just continue being a great mother to your S,let him see how strong you are, and how you can take that upper road whenever possible ( its the one thing my S, now 24 says, how he is amazed how well I treat his father now, when even he dosnt think he deserves it)not always easy I must say lol

please , please try to just move ahead as best you can - you can do it, if I can, anyone can! , let ex alone, he actually dosnt deserve you right now-and, you never know whats around the corner

Good Luck and hugs to you

Sun,
I think you are discovering what so many of us have...the wonderful H you had is gone, for now if not for good. At least for us--they might be wonderful with OW, but if they aren't their wonderful selves with us, what does it matter if they are with someone else? We won't see the benefit regardless of whether the dramatically-changed personality is across the board or just with us.

We all want to be the one who gets the miracle, whose sitch is the exception to the statistics. Maybe we will be...we're all still alive, right? The fat lady hasn't sung yet. But we have to do our best given the sitch as it stands wherever we are right now.

These spouses just become such different people from the ones they were before...my H loved riding bicycles. His college graduation gift from his parents was a lovely racing bicycle (which is still his main bike), and he even got me interested in riding, to the point that we completed a century (100 miles in one day) together a year before the bomb, which was a major accomplishment for both of us (although he'd done one on his own before that). It was one of the things we really enjoyed doing together on a regular basis, although he went alone sometimes, because I slowed him down a bit. I even started riding without him last year when he went into full flaky MLC mode and didn't want to spend any time with me at all and was traveling to see OW all the time. Well, it's June, and we have great weather for biking, and his bike is still here. He claimed when he moved out in November that he didn't have room in his apartment for his bike, and maybe he'd come and get it when spring came and keep it in his car. Well, I think that's bogus. I still don't know where he lives, but I can't believe his apartment is so small there isn't room for his bike. I think what's really going on is that he is eating poorly and not exercising and is too distracted by the whole MLC fog and OW to think about biking. OW weighs twice what I do, easy, so there's absolutely no way she would be able to keep up with him on a bike, if she even has one (I worked for years to get to that point with him, and finally managed just before the aliens took his brain, and could still do it), and despite the major fitness program he went on in 2005, he backslid within a year (granted, I think that was partly due to the death of his mother that same year _INSERT BIG RED MLC FLAG HERE_), and I haven't seen him losing any weight in the last couple of years. I don't think OW is nearly as into healthy eating and fitness as I am--that would be a challenge for anyone, anyway. But...biking was always a big factor in his life. And now, apparently, suddenly...it's not.

Well, that got a bit long-winded (sorry!), but I think you get the point. They change. Dramatically. And they stay changed for a long time, if not forever. And there's not much we can do about it. It doesn't mean you have to give up on them, or on the possibility of restoration of your marriage--I'm not!--but you have to at least accept that they aren't who they were, and they may not be anything like that again for years. And accepting is a necessary prelude to taking the best course of action to deal with it.

Take care of yourself, and your S. Look for what you can do on your own to make your life better, and yourself a better person.

Peace,
Dawn

Great post KarenMarieS, Thank you.

Dawn:

Quote:

These spouses just become such different people from the ones they were before...my H loved riding bicycles

My H too. He became Lance Armstrong for a few years. Then stopped cold turkey. He finally took his bike with him a few months ago but I know he's not riding it.

And Sunshine, I think you said your H lived for fishing? Mine too. Has he fished since becoming involved with the OW? Nope.

I don't know why they change. Soon as I figure it out I'll write a book and make millions!

well I know I sound like a broken record but do these WAS have the same traits as MLC, because mine is soooo acting like so many that are in MLC.

BH I called him because, *and this might not be a good excuse to you*, I was trying to take the advice of some here and try to treat him as I would a friend.
Also, I didn't want to put son in the middle and I didnt have the boards with me at the time.
Sooo instead of explaining to son and having him give the message, I just done it myself. I havent called xh but a couple times in the last 2 or so months and its always something important.
I am probably trying to be "nice" "friendly" too sonn arent I.
Let me have it.

Cornhole boards is a game you play with bean bags and boards (built at a slant). Basically a bean bag toss game. The object is to get the bean bag in the hole in the middle, or closest to the hole. You keep points of course. Very addictive!

I cant saying I am leaving for awhile.lol
I cant help it I love to talk...wish you all were close by.

Renee, there isn't anything wrong with talking on the boards. I still come here because I learn a lot about relationships. As far as how you deal with your XH, well you are going to do what you want to, so there is no need to jump on you over it.

BH I do listen to you. You may not think I do, but I do. Dont you remember in the beginning how much I called him, drove by, looked at her myspace and all sorts of things?
I dont do any of those anymore. I know I should stop calling him altogether BUT answer this...If I NEVER call, not even 2 or 3 months and he NEVER calls me, how do I treat him as a friend? Isnt it important to touch base. I dont talk about r or gf, I just tell or ask him what I need to do.
I have been doing things for myself.
I fixed the handle on my toilet.lol
I am fixing the sink faucet in my kitchen and finishing a back porch soon.
Snodderly you here? Need your input too.

I want to ask a question. I was reading some stories and something occured to me.
To anyone that wants to answer.
We all know how much I have tried to figure out if my xh is WAS or MLC (which I have decided doesnt really matter anyway), and BH and others think he is a WAS and they may be right. BUT I probably should add something to my story. I didnt begin my story here on the boards until my xh and I seperated. I did NOT tell the prior year or so details and I may be leaving important parts out THAT MATTER!
NO I am not wanting someone to tell me he is MLC. I just realized I didnt write about what happened before he moved out.
I didnt realized alot of people here talk about their h's being confused...stay or go...then eventually they seperate.
Well my xh, for a year or so, every time we would argue he would say he wasnt happy and hadnt been in years, he would say that he didnt know if he loved me enough to stay. He would threaten to contact a lawyer several times. The last time, before he left, he did this. He went to bed and I stayed up because the way we left things. I worke up the next morning and said he still felt he wanted a divorce. About 2 hours later, he came into the room I was in and said, "what are you doing?" "Do you want to go eat lunch with me." I just looked at him like "what"??????? Ah, you just said you wanted a divorce and have said so since last night.
He said, "well I think we can work it out". I said do you love me and he said, "yes, I PROBABLY love you enough to try."...
I could not believe he said PROBABLY. When I called his attention to it, he said I DO love you enough to try. I think he was confused at this point.
I just tried to go on and forget about it. He would say things like, "dont worry, I will never leave you", "I could not imagine living without you and son."
Then the next time we argued weeks later, he decided he wanted out and divorced and wasnt going to change his mine.

I thin this shows confusing, do you???

Sun

I think both WAS and MLCer can be confused.

And I also believe that when we, the LBS, go through the pleading, questioning, crying and begging phase in the beginning, they will say whatever needs to be said to avoid even more conflict. Thus they speak what they're feeling at the moment (true or not), but when we have a breakdown because of it, or question them too much about it...they'll say what they think we want to hear just to get the 'crisis' over for that small amount of time. Eventually they will go back to what they're feeling ( right or wrong) and we're right back from the starting point.

That's why it's best if we don't question them or try to talk them out of what they're feeling/saying. For them, they feel they are being honest for the first time in their lives. And when we don't/can't believe them or validate they might have these feelings, they move even farther away from us.

The MC we went to for a short amount of time said that my xh was 'dog-paddling', not knowing which side of the river to swim towards. So I do believe they can be confused in the beginning, and when we push them, we almost always push them to make the decision to swim away because they just want the pain/confusion/anger to stop. Most try to avoid conflict at any cost.

It really doesnt matter if they're WAS or MLC....they are people that are at a spot in their lives that they are very unhappy and feel that we/marriage are the cause of it. Doesn't mean we're solely responsible for their feelings/actions....so don't let yourself believe you are. You have your share in the problems...but you are not responsible for his actions and decisions, only your own. So make sure you can live with the consequences of how you live your OWN life from this day forward.

Forgive yourself, forgive him...and remember you can't go back in time, you can't change anyone but yourself, and each day is a new opportunity to grow and shine your own light!

These things I say, I learned from my own experiences. I made all the mistakes most of the LBS here have made. I finally realized that I needed to go on with my life and let him have what he wanted...a divorce and the single life. The divorce was almost 3 years ago. I'm still struggling some days..I still miss the person I thought I knew..I still pray for him ..I still have dreams about him. But I've found I can function regardless of these things. I know that only God knows the outcome out of this terrible destruction of a family and a relationship that spanned more than 30 years. I can live with that.

Renee,
I have absolutely no input and/or advice to offer you at this time.

Hi Renee, you asked me to stop by your thread. I read your first post when you came on board. If I did post to you as you thought.......I wonder if I was not very nice? The reason I say that is b/c I have zero tolerance for a man who even hints at being like your H, and frankly......I find it very hard to understand why a wife would put up with him.

The point I am making is that I believe it is critical that a LBW has tons of self-respect, high self-esteem,.....and gallons of old-fashion spunk! I'm not saying you do or don't b/c all I read was a post of two from the beginning. However, why do I get this feeling that you have allowed your XH to talk anyway he wants and gets by with it? Why do I feel that you run to him, chase him, and would roll over and do tricks if you thought you'd get him back? I am not trying to see how mad I can make you toward me.....even if it sounds as if I am. I am hoping to get a response from you that will tell me how wrong I am. Although, if I make you good and mad at "him"....that will be worth it!

You see, it only took your short post on my thread to make me think that he was a bully, but when I read your original post on the board, that confirmed it. I am sure he went through a difficult time in the job changes, etc. However, just by the way you said he treated you and talked to you......I couldn't believe you would continue to take that cr@p! You deserve better than that.....don't you think? He sounds like the worst, most arrogant man in the world.....but I'm sure he is just a number amoung many MLC/WAS.

So, tell me why are you still itimate with him? Why do you allow him to treat you like dirt and brag about how many other women he has slept with--and then YOU have sex with this man? Aren't you afraid of getting some disease? There is cake eating.....and then--there is CAKE EATING!!!

I don't know if you have always "spoiled" him or if that was his natural "personality" but he needs to change it or you need help in dropping the rope and moving on with your life. Don't let anybody do you as low down as he has, sweetie! Why or how did you get to this place of such low self-esteem? Have you been this way the entire time you were M to him or did it start later? It really bothers me (as you can tell) for a man to rough-shod over a woman and her lay down and take it......and ask for more....like you have.

Have you ever received any type of counseling? If not, I hope you will seriously consider it.

I know that I am being very blunt and you did ask me to come by, but I am just blown away by what little I have read. Tell me what you have done to feel better about "Renee" since the D. What do you do to GAL? I know that you are still too focused on him and you'll continue to be until you drop the rope.

Dropping the rope would be the best thing that ever happened to him.....and for sure....YOU. Again, I am not trying to be sarcastic, but hoping you will understand that you will never draw him back by allowing him to walk all over you and disrespect you like he has. What has the longest period of time been that you have not made some type of contact with him? What do you feel you could do in order to stay busy and keep from contacting him first and just see if he would contact you?

If I am as wrong as sin, I will gladly apologize and I hope you will say that I am b/c that will mean you have some "fight" in you and won't let another person treat you like I think he is doing. It is hard to understand how anybody could continue to love another person who thinks so little of them.

I did see where you seemed concerned (too much) if he would be called a WAS or in MLC. The two are very similar, but for sure he is a WAS! Right? So, what if he is in MLC? Would that make a difference in where you stood? You see, even if we are not to believe everything they say to us......if you don't stand up for yourself and have some dignity, he will never respect you or want you. Having sex and he won't "allow" kissing?? Are you kidding me? The nerve of him! That is nothing more than a "booty call".

Please, do not continue to take this treatment off this man or anybody else. If you don't think more of yourself than that, why should he think more of you?

You may be sorry for inviting me to come by, but I have to be honest with you where I see this.....and it is not good. It could be.....if you would change. However, "he" will never change if you don't. But, let me back up and say this before you misunderstand me.......when you change....it is not to get him back...it is strickly for "Renee" and nobody else. There may be a chance that he would open his eyes and see the gal he wanted to be with.....if he really believed he could not have her! But, doesn't he know he can have you whenever he crooks his finger? Tell me I'm wrong.

I hope you will. Don't you think it's time and don't you think you deserve better? He told you to leave him alone b/c all he wants is peace. So, why dcn't you give him what he wants?

Check on you later,
Sandi

So, tell me why are you still itimate with him?

I haven't been intimate with him in 5 months. Since he moved in his gf.

There is cake eating.....and then--there is CAKE EATING!!!

Well Sandi I don't know if this would be cake eating when I was the one begging him to let me in the door. Yes I BEGGED him to just let me in for a few minutes, then I would pursue sex. He actually would tell me that it wasn't a good idea and it wasn't right. I would have to just about make him have sex with me. Then he would say ok, but no kissing, it brings up too many feelings.
I was SOOOOO desperate to have him in my life...it was pathetic. I just now realized how much so, I wish sooo much I would not have acted in this way.
There was maybe 1 or 2 times that he would pursue me in the beggining and 1 or 2 times that I didnt have to really MAKE him.
Somebody should have tied me up and tranquilized me for 8 months or so.

He sounds like the worst, most arrogant man in the world.....but I'm sure he is just a number amoung many MLC/WAS.

I have to say he is VERY confident and yes sometimes arrogant. Most people say this about him. Some say that he is very cold hearted and very cocky.

I don't know if you have always "spoiled" him or if that was his natural "personality"

I would say YES I spoiled him and he would say he spoiled me too. He always got what he wanted as far as "toys, such as fishing poles and such", he took 4 vacations a year and only one with me. The rest was fishing with buddies and son.
Yes, it is some of his personality...It is ALWAYS his way or else.
Although, after he left he said I NEVER listened to him and I always had to have things my way.

Don't let anybody do you as low down as he has, sweetie! Why or how did you get to this place of such low self-esteem? Have you been this way the entire time you were M to him or did it start later? It really bothers me (as you can tell) for a man to rough-shod over a woman and her lay down and take it......and ask for more....like you have. Have you ever received any type of counseling? If not, I hope you will seriously consider it.

I DO have low self esteem. I have always thought this. Actually I think it is because the men in my life, including my dad, has always left me behind. I have always had this. I never had a mom that took any time with me. She had alot of nerve problems and anxiety. I basically have laid down and took whatever he dished out becuase honestly I think that NO ONE else will ever want me, so I guess this is why I fought so hard to keep him and why I am so scared.
No, I have not found a counselor yet. I really cant afford one and dont know of any free ones. I have spoken with my pastor a few times. Both of my pastors know my xh personally so I dont know how much they can help me, they are close to the situation. I DO want counseling so bad though, would love to talk to somebody.

Tell me what you have done to feel better about "Renee" since the D. What do you do to GAL? I know that you are still too focused on him and you'll continue to be until you drop the rope.

Sandi, should I have long dropped the rope by now? And exactually what would dropping the rope consist of? I know what it means.
I have actually been doing alot of stuff. I hardly am ever home at night, I am always at a friends with my nephew along. I am trying to save my home. I am also trying to find a job with better pay and more hours. I start school in August. I want to be an OB Nurse. I am so excited about school. It should take me no more than 3 years or so, but I think I can start working around 1 year and a half or so.
I have been going to the tanning bed and I NEED to start working out. I lost a little weight, but would love to lose alot more.

What has the longest period of time been that you have not made some type of contact with him? What do you feel you could do in order to stay busy and keep from contacting him first and just see if he would contact you

The longest period of time without any contact...this means email, texting and phone calls...would be around 1 month and a half to 2 months. I really stopped counting the days. I use to count the days and found it drove me crazy.
As far as him contacting me. He will NEVER contact me as long as he has his gf, and dont know if he would after that. He did take my calls until she moved in with him and they broke up twice, then he stopped altogether. If I would call, he would answer, hear my voice and then hang up on me. Even from the beginning of this he didnt contact me but maybe once or twice, that has been over 8 months. BUT why would he have too, when I was calling him EVERYDAY! I was sooooo not in my right mind, couldn't have been. So him contacting me, I dont see it happening. One months and a half seems like a long time when you are wanting so desperately to hear from them, but I know its not that long in his mind. I think the gf has a little to do with this, or maybe she doesn't, but he use to at least tell me he wanted to hear from me every 2 weeks or so, to check up with finances and stuff.

I did see where you seemed concerned (too much) if he would be called a WAS or in MLC. The two are very similar, but for sure he is a WAS! Right? So, what if he is in MLC? Would that make a difference in where you stood?

Yes I have been dwelling on the WAS or MLC thing alot. In the beginning when I first came to this board, people would say and some still do, that if they are in MLC then we should treat it as a disease and love them and treat them like they were sick...but according to some on here if they were a WAS then that was different. So, I have been trying to figure out which one he is, because I thought it made a difference. Really and truly I am sooooo tired of trying to figure out what he is. I am having a hard time thinking that something isnt wrong with him I guess, he is just NOT the man i married and he has become to me like he was to some of his prisioners he took to jail...mean and cold hearted. I saw this man through his surgery and was there for him and would never be this mean to him, even if I wanted the divorce. I dont want to give up on the man I married.
Sandi, let me ask you this. Would you stand for your spose if you knew they were just walking away and they were NOT in crisis?

Let me end in saying. I DO NOT see him or go around him anymore, so the abuse has stopped. I also want to say that I respect your opinion and many others on this board. I know that Snodderly and some others are getting agitated with me, because they think I am not listening, when in fact I am, I am just having a hard time understanding why this is happening to me. I know their advice is spot on and I do try to do what they say but its hard to accept this. I have always been one that is "hard headed and never gives up". I will not stop until I completely understand something and that agitates some people. I hate to give up and I am trying so hard not to let this beat my family. I do also most importantly TRUST IN GOD!

Hugs,
Renee

Renee,
You don't have to GIVE UP on him or on your M...you can stand for your M even after D. It's just that for now, you have to live your life as though he is never coming back, because it is the best thing you can do for yourself, AND for your M. Pray for him, and for your M, avoid trashing him to others or doing stuff in revenge or anger...but keep moving forward. Trapt has a line I really like that seems appropriate here:

Stand...but don't stand still.

Peace
Dawn

Dawn I noticed your h has the younger woman syndrome also.
Why would someone their age want a woman that young?
I dont care if I was the one that was leaving, I would NOT want a 25 year old man.

Oh Renee.......you made me cry. I have to tell you when I first read a little bit about your stitch I nearly came unraveled to think you have submitted to this treatment. But something was said on another thread about a completely different stitch and it made me realize that just b/c I was raised up the way I was....does not mean everybody has the same "tools" to see situations as they are and know how to deal with them. I do not mean to imply that I am sooooo smart and always know just what to do about everything!! I most certainly do not. However, I was very blessed to have the parents I had and to be given the training I had. You could say that I was raised with a "tough love" approach and my mother's attitude (and my father's also) toward everything in life....infuenced me tremdously. I too have that tough love attitude, but that is not to say I do not have compassion for others. I hope I did not come across as being cold hearted in my post to you, but in a way.....I was hoping to kind of shake you up a bit.

I really did not know if I would ever post to you again or not b/c I did not know if I could ever make any headway......but what you said in this last post has touched my heart and to just cut to the chase here.....let me tell you that you will have "me" to talk to....okay? I am old enough to be your Mamma and you can talk to me about how you feel and the problems you face. My grandmother, mother, myself, and my daughter....have always been very close and talked about EVERYTHING to each other. As I said.....I have been very blessed. Haven't had tons of money, but lots and lots of love. Wouldn't trade it for all the gold in this world!

I knew I was scanning over some of your posts, but I sure misunderstood about you NOT having contact as long as you have. That is a beginning!

I will warn you that I am very different in my personlity and outlook toward MR, the role of the husband and wife, and everything (probably) than you are. But I will try to understand where you are coming from....as best as I can....and try to give you any guidance or glimpse of wisdom that I have gleaned over the years.....if you want me to.

The part that tore at my heart was you talking about your dad leaving and your mom not having time for you. I believe that is your basic problem where your R with your H is concerned. It seems as clear as a picture. As long as you don't play games with me just to pull me along.....and as long as you are honest and at least "trying" to learn and make some changes, then I will try my best to be here for you, Renee.

It blew me away when you said you did not know if it was "cake eating" or not.....and then described your experience of begging your H to let you in the house and trying to make him have sex with you. Last night, that would have really bugged the daylights out of me. Tonight.....well, I feel very sad. You do need help, sweetie, and I am no professional, but as I said.....I will work to try to help you in any way that I can. As you saw, I am plain spoken and I get my 2x4 out when necessary.....but it is when I care. If I don't "care"......I won't bother with the post.

So, there it is......I'm offering my shoulder and my "mom" expertise (lol) if you want it. I probably have never had the experiences from life that you have had......but I bet I've had some bummers that you have not had to endure also. Together maybe we will be able to cover some ground and get you feeling better about yourself.

The way I see this thing is that the core of "your" problem is based on your low self-esteem. Yes, your H is a huge problem (and that is a nice word for him :/) but until you can have self-respect and actually learn to like Renee.....you will not be able to deal with him or anything else successfuly. I may be repeating myself from last night. If I do that occassionaly....just over-look me.....

You have not been intimate with him since he moved in with his GF (which I am very proud of you for that!!)and you have not contacted him in about two months.......BTW, is that this past two months or was it another time? The longer you can go without making contact with him......the quicker you will get stronger. If I am able to help you at all, it will be b/c you trust me. There will be lots of things that I will tell you that will be hard and you may not fully understand "why" but you will have to try and cooperate. I don't mean this to sound like a "power & control" thing going on here. I was thinking more in terms of adopting you as one of my girls......

So.......I will be asking lots of questions. I should just go back and read everything, but it would help speed things up if I could ask specific questions and you answer and go from there.

Okay, so back to the cake eating and your answer to that.....I believe what happened goes far beyound cake eating, sweetie. I do believe that you were scared to death and was so "forceful" b/c your desparation to stop another man (in your life) from leaving you and shuting you out....felt so strong that it drove you to do what you did. Begging him to let you in the house was as if you were that little girl again begging your dad to let you into his life. Almost forcing your H to have sex with you was your way to be assured of his love. You were desparate to have him prove his love right then......and by having sex, that was the proof you needed. But he was so ugly in his treatment to you and it must have made you feel terrible. Anyway, that is what it made me think when I read it again and we will get back to that later.

Renee, I would like to ask a very personal question and you don't have to answer if you do not want to. Remember that nobody knows who you are......which makes us feel safe here. Were you abused by a man when you were young and defenseless?
Do you ever remember being a happy little girl?

Did you have bad experiences when you started dating? By that I mean, did you feel that the boys were the ones that broke up with you leaving you feeling rejected and unable to keep a boyfriend? Have to ask lots of questions to find out more.

BTW, I saw you mentioned a son, how many children do you have? How do you see yourself as a mother? Do the children get their traits of self worth from you or their father? I do believe that parents influence that to a huge degree and it takes a very stong, determined person to overcome negative things that would keep their self-esteem down.

You do know that your H is a very selfish man, don't you? Can you "now" look back and see him as a bully when you were living with him? How can he say that you always had to have things your way? I find that very hard to believe when it seems obvious as to who ruled the roost. Did you feel more confident when you were seen as his wife......and do feel like you have lost "something" of your self value after he left you?

I want to talk about Dropping the Rope and tons of other things, but a storm is coming and my H just told me I need to shut the computer down. So, I will talk to you tomorrow.

BTW, you have read the DR book, right?

Take care,
Sandi

Hi, Renee,
A lot of people on here have the "much younger OW" in their sitch. You will notice that if you are paying attention to it.

My H has always been interested in college-age people, especially women (not always in a romantic way). I think he likes something about the energy of the young. I'm also starting to suspect that it ties into his co-dependent tendencies--he is a strongly "caretaker" type, and heaven knows that most college students could use someone else providing the benefit of their brains (and experience, and money, and...). I, on the other hand, can't imagine myself, from the age of about 30 on, ever being the least bit romantically interested in a 20-something man. I am glad to be rid of the immaturity of that age and younger--I have _very_ little tolerance for it.

My H has been heavily involved in community theatre for about 10 years, especially through the community colleges, so that keeps a constant supply of fresh college-age blood available to him. His first OW was 22 when they were involved, and he was 37. The current OW was 22 when they first got involved, almost two years ago now, and he was 43. I think if he doesn't get himself straightened out, he will be finding another 22-year-old when he's 50, and another at 57, and another at 65...yuck! Oh-oh, I just realized I might be M to Hugh Hefner!!

My H has been on a 5-person bowling team with the same 3 "girls" (that's how he refers to them collectively) for about 10 years (the 5th person is a different man just about every year). The girls were all around age 20 and attending the community college when H started his community theatre experience there. One of the girls on the team is my H's OW#1, now M to a guy the same age as my H, who was separated from his first (or maybe second?) W when he and OW#1 started dating, right after she and my H "broke up" because I found out about their R. Following the "breakup," H flatly refused to remove himself from being on the bowling team with her and thus seeing her every week with me not around (I get sick in the smoke-filled atmosphere of bowling alleys), so I had to just learn to live with it.

It was interesting that over the years, many, many times H came home from bowling and complained about the immature things the three girls were doing (including OW#1). I finally learned not to criticize any of them in front of him, even if it was just agreeing with his complaints. I just listened, especially when it was OW#1 he was currently grousing about. But...no matter how much he complained, he kept bowling with them, and probably will be doing so in the fall again, for all I know. And apparently he hasn't had his fill of immaturity, because he's back to being involved with an early 20-something girl. And to add insult to injury, I'm fit and healthy and a size 4 or so, and she's at least double my weight. It's such a slap in the face...or rather, a couple of years' worth of severe beatings.

Wow, I didn't mean to talk so much about my sitch...I hope you don't feel hijacked! Maybe you got something or other out of all that gibberish...

MLC cliches actually have a grain of truth to them, even though they hide a world of pain. I would rather have seen my H try to buy 10 red sports cars than go after one 20-something woman (or any age, really). But ya know, we don't really get to choose...they do. And we have to figure out how to live with it. That's why we're all here on the boards...to make our lives better, in spite of whatever our WAS's choose to throw at us.

Peace,
Dawn

Renee, it sounds like you have had a lot of troubles in your life, I can relate, perhaps not in the same ways, but this is my 2nd go-around with this. My father walked off and left us when I was young and my mother had to raise us. Needless to say he offered no support financial or otherwise and we had it very rough. My father was in his own world doing what he wanted and to hell with the rest of us. Fast forward to the present day, I have NOTHING to do with him, nor will I in the future. He will call from time to time, but he does all the talking, I am not interested in what he does or doesn't do. I haven't seen him in years, nor will I, even when he dies. I have closed that chapter of my life totally. He recently remarried and asked me to come and stand-up with him. LOL Well, needless to say I refused the "honor" and I certainly didn't go. In fact, I have asked him to not call me anymore that I had nothing to say to him, but he keeps calling from time to time. As for my XW, she always wanted kids and couldn't have any. My sister died a few years ago and had 2 little kids, she wouldn't shut up until I took them in court from thier father, who was a piece of garbage, anyway 2 years into it she told me she didn't want them anymore and walked off. I have been raising them alone while she lives it up. Her family and I were very close, or so I thought, but they upheld her all the way. I also have no desire to talk to them, I closed that chapter in my life as well. I also told my XW that she made her choices and she will have to live with them, and if it didn't work out, she stands alone. Anyway, that's my spill.

Sandi, I hope you weathered the storm.
I will try and answer some of your questions the best I can.

The way I see this thing is that the core of "your" problem is based on your low self-esteem

Yes my low self-esteem is a huge problem! Right now, to be honest, my thinking is...I will never find anyone else that will want me. I was so blessed to find my xh and have 20 years with him. He was a good father and husband for many years until about a year ago. That's when we started fighting for no reason, I could not do ANYTHING to make him happy it seemed. Every time we would argue during this year he would want a divorce. When he dropped the bomb, I had questioned him about a phone call he wouldnt take in front of me, this was the first 25 year old (that I know of) that he cheated on me with.
He told me from there that he did not love me like a h should love a w and he wanted to sep and possible divorce. He cried and said he was very unhappy but couldnt tell me why, he said he wanted different companionship. Later he told me he wanted to "play" and that was what he was gonna do. I asked him once why the young girls and not someone his age. He said "older women were wise to the game". YES he actually said this. I was just amazed at some of the things that came out of his mouth. I also asked him about some of the things he was saying to these young girls and he said "you gotta keepem happy". I NEVER knew he could ever say these things. I was married to him almost 20 years and NEVER EVER knew this about him. I felt sooooo stupid and blind.

BTW, is that this past two months or was it another time?

Yes the no contact is recently. Actually the last 2 months or so we have had no contact, then I called him at work, about 2 weeks ago, about our home and we talked about 2 min or so, he was pretty nice but in a hurry to get off phone, acted like he was VERY uncomfortable. About 2 weeks after that I tried to call him about son and something else, I dont even remember, and he answered, heard my voice and hung up on me. I guess 2 months wasnt enough, uh?

I believe what happened goes far beyound cake eating, sweetie. I do believe that you were scared to death and was so "forceful" b/c your desparation to stop another man (in your life) from leaving.

Yes, I was most certainly SCARED TO DEATH of losing him, I was grasping at anything to keep him. I think I thought using the sex thing could keep him because this is the one area he said was "great" in our marriage. He said this all during the sep and divorce.

Were you abused by a man when you were young and defenseless?
Do you ever remember being a happy little girl?

Yes I was emotionally abused and some physically BUT not by a man, by my mother. My father left home because he couldnt live with her any longer. He left me to deal with the mess.
(RIP mom). By the way my xh left me 3 weeks after my mother died. I was dealing with many things other than her dealth but had to put them all aside to deal with my divorce. I cant even tell you how I kept it together. Some people here think that I am not making any progress...if they only knew what I have had to endure. AND I am not having a pity party, just trying to make you understand. THIS is a whole nother story that I will have to tell you.

Did you have bad experiences when you started dating? By that I mean, did you feel that the boys were the ones that broke up with you leaving you feeling rejected and unable to keep a boyfriend? Have to ask lots of questions to find out more.

Yes I did! I hung with the popular girls and guys through high school. The one thing that sticks in my mind, is it always seemed I never could live up to their standards, I felt like they always got the best guys, so forth.
I did have one true love in high school and we dated forver, he joined the army and left me also. We never got back together after that. Believe it or not, he has contacted me since my divorce and begged me several times to meet him. He is married but seperated. It would be so easy to fall in his arms so I refused. He says he will always love me and so forth, but I cant even imagine letting another man touch me right now. I would love to have dinner but that is as far as it is gonna go for now.
I also was engaged to another man later on, whom broke up with me after 2 years or so.
Then I met my h and he told me the first night he met me that he was gonna marry me. AND he did.
I dont think I have ever ended a long term relationship.
I hope this answered your question.

BTW, I saw you mentioned a son, how many children do you have? How do you see yourself as a mother? Do the children get their traits of self worth from you or their father?

I have one son and a nephew that I recently got custody of. I think I am a very good mother, but I let my son get away with way too much. My son is JUST LIKE his father. He also have said things to me that I know he heard his father say. My son does not respect me and he run over me. I have been told this by all my friends. I feel I let him by with this because I have lost so much, I dont want to lose him too.
I know I shouldnt let him talk to me the way he does. He tries to be the man of the house, he is 19 (just turned 19), and he thinks he is the boss. My xh does not stand behind me with him, in fact, my xh has said that is one of the reasons he left. He was tired of arguing with son.
I have sent my son to stay with his dad, and after one day he came back telling me how sorry he was for treating me the way he did. BUT he has started doing the same things all over again.
My son is a good kid (man now). He doesnt cuss me or anything, but he does raise his voice and sometimes I could swear he was his dad talking. He doesnt do anything but stay at home playing games on the computer. This was his last year in high school and I want him to go to college or at least get a job to let me with the bills.
I honestly dont think his dad would keep him a week.
I love my son with all my heart and it is sooo hard sometimes to take what he dishes out.
I have to put my foot down...this is a work in progress.

You do know that your H is a very selfish man, don't you? Can you "now" look back and see him as a bully when you were living with him? How can he say that you always had to have things your way? I find that very hard to believe when it seems obvious as to who ruled the roost. Did you feel more confident when you were seen as his wife......and do feel like you have lost "something" of your self value after he left you?

Yes I think he is selfish for what he has chosen to do. My xh had it good for the most part. He went out fishing with his buddies and on vacations with them whenever he wanted. I never told him NO he couldnt do something. I would tell him I was not his mother I was his wife and I would not tell him what to do. My xh wasnt a bully the whole time. He was a good man. When I started to work, he always helped out with the housework and cooking and so forth. The only time he was a bully was when he didnt get enough sleep or when I wanted to talk and he didnt. When he was finished talking that was it the converstaion was over. He like to be in control and said I tried to control him. Whatever. I did have alot of issues with anxiety and panic attacks and I will have to say it propbaly put alot on him. BUT after awhile when he understood that most people go through this he got better about it. My Dr. put me on medicine and things improved. This was years ago and he never mentioned this when he left, so I dont think this was one of the reasons why, but I could be wrong.
The funny thing is my xh said I wanted to control him, and even though I dont think I did, he now lives with a girl that does control him. My son says the gf is the boss big time. My xh even told me whatever she wants is what she is gonna get.
If he complained about me trying to control him, why does he let her? I dont understand.
I do feel like I have lost part of myself after he left me. I dont feel like I have lost a "king" so to speak. But I do feel empty, lonely. As far as my self-worth, I still think I am worth something, but then again I think, if he didnt want me and I couldnt make him happy then who will want me?
I do feel that my life with him was great up until a couple years ago. We always had fun together and got along. I and he were always getting what he wanted, my xh worked 2 jobs for the most part, (and he also let me know this when he left).
I dont think I will ever find someone that I can love as much as I did him though. The bullying and soforth didnt start until about 2 years ago. Up until then we had the perfect life and marriage as far as love and friendship goes.
I dont want you to think my xh was always this way, because he wasnt. I dont know what happend to him.

BTW, you have read the DR book, right?
No I havent, I cant really afford to buy it and I am divorced and I didnt know if I still needed to read it anyway.

Looking forward to what you have to say.
And YES I will be your adopted daughter.

Hugs,
Renee

Hi Renee,

I wanted to respond to several things you said in your last post. As you noticed, I write long ones, but don't know how to do it any other way when I first get started or involved with a person and their stitch. Thanks for answering so many of my questions b/c I know it wasn't an easy task, but it helps me to know these things. Believe it or not, I was not surprised at your answers. I have known several women with your problems. In fact, I have someone very close to me who could almost be your twin.

Quote:

Right now, to be honest, my thinking is...I will never find anyone else that will want me.

This makes me feel very sad for you b/c you must think that life is not worth living unless you have "somebody" who wants you. Now, I know that most of us do hope that we have another person to share life with......but we do not need to depend on another person to make us happy. I did not know that when I was younger. I thought my H was suppose to make me happy and when he didn't.....then I thought I must have M the wrong man. I had a lot of growing up to do and a ton of things to learn about life and love. There are books at the county library that you could check out that would help you understand how that happiness is a choice we make for ourselves. In fact, there is a book by that name....."Happiness is a Choice". I even had a class in that subject at our church. At the time, I was not easily convinced b/c I still thought another person could make me happy or unhappy. What I had to learn was that another person can certainly make a difference in our life, but it is how we "live" and the personal choices we make each day. It depends on our attitude. Eveything effects us based on our attitude! I would not have believed that principle if I had not proven it to myself. Even when we have tragidy in life, and other things that we have no control over.......it is how we respond to all of that....that will determine our well being or destruction. I don't go around preaching "positive attitude" like Norman Vincent Peal (I think was the author), but I know it does make a huge difference in everything. I also know that the opposite (negative attitude) is so very destructive to an individual and to an entire family. So, you will probably hear a lot about that from me. Besides, it doesn't hurt to remind myself of these things.....

So, with that in mind....I want to encourage you to try to start looking at your life through different eyes, okay? Instead of thinking that you will never find anyone else that will want you......practice thinking that anyone else would be very, very lucky to be able to catch a gal as great as you are! You see, if you have the concept that nobody will want you.....that is what people actually preceive from you and in some kind of weird way, it turns folks off and could influence them into actually doing the very thing you do not want to happen! Maybe it causes you to show some type of hidden desparation or whatever.....I just know it is true about human beings. Strange, isn't it?

I feel that one reason you look to somebody else to "want" you and to make you happy is due to your growing up years. All of us have experienced losing boyfriends, etc., but losing the man you were engaged to and the man who went to the miliatary......you took very, very personal. The broken engagement may have been blamed on "you" but that does not mean you were the true reason that the M was called off. Again, it is up to you in how you decide to look at that event. Perhaps you were used to accepting that role in relationships. In other words, you almost subconsciously expected to be the "fault" for not getting M to that first man. Then when the other man joined the military and "left you behind".......you took that as a personal insult & injury. Maybe he had talked about M to you and you felt he was running out on you, but still.......you need to look at it as it being his loss--and was better for you to find out he was not in the right place to get M to anyone at that time. I know you were crushed at the time both of those experiences happened and may not have had anyone to counsel with you to guide you through it, but I think maybe you are still hurting over those events and blaming yourself for not being good enough for either of those two men. If you are.....would you do an exercise for me? Would you practice looking at yourself in the mirror once a day and telling yourself that it was their loss that they did not have the smarts to know a good thing when it came along? Say it with all the "umph" that you can muster! Just do that everyday until I bring it up again.....okay?

I am glad that you had a good 20 years with your XH. I am very glad to hear that he was not always as bad as he seems to be now! I do think he is in MLC by what you say about him. It probably started about two years ago and continued to grow until it came to a full blown situation he could not cover up anymore. Again, I feel that you are taking the "blame" for this. Believe me.....HIM HAVING A MLC IS NOT YOUR FAULT! I don't think there is anyway a spouse can stop the other one from having a MLC. I could talk for a long time about that, but I want to cover some other things you said.

Quote:

I could not do ANYTHING to make him happy it seemed.

Just as nobody can "make" us happy, neither can we make them happy. It's true we can influence a person's life to much degree, but if he chooses not to be happy.....what can you do about it? Nothing! So, here is what I am asking you to do.....when you look in that mirror and say those things about the other guys?......I want you to tell yourself that you were not the reason for the downfall of your marriage. That's right, that is exactly what I said, b/c you are beating yourself up for all that stuff and it clearly was his doing, so stop with the self punishing. When you tell yourself (by thoughts alone, if not verbally) that you weren't good enough, or couldn't hold on to him, or whatever you may think to yourself.......it is a form of self-induced punishment. In order to get a better self esteem.....you MUST do this "cleansing" and sort of purge all the bad things that you feel about yourself and stop taking the blame for all the relationships that you feel has not been successful. This includes your father leaving. You said that it was b/c of your mother. So, I'm sure it must have been very bad for him to leave his family behind, but a lot of men did that back then.

All those horrible things your H said to you that just shocked the daylights out of you.....that is what is known as "script" for a WAH. You can read other stories and it varies little from what each one says to their W's.

I am very glad to hear that you have cut out the contact. I know it must have been hard, but you are doing the right thing. It was unexcusable of him for hanging up on you when he heard your voice. If it were me, I would not speak to him over the phone anymore. Instead, I would contact him through email at his office (so his girlfriend would not interceed) and talk of only business matters and it would have to be serious before I did it. It would be very short and to the point in a business-like manner. Do not take that kind of treatment from him again. You have done nothing to deserve that and it shows how low down he is to show that type of rude behavior to the mother of his child. You "deserve" to be respected for the 20 years of M he had with you, and for the son you bore for him, and the fact he left you for OW. Hold your head up high and "pretend" to have self-respect.....until you can actually feel your esteem getting higher. That old saying of "fake it till you make it" has a lot of truth to it. If you pretend and practice what you want to "feel".....and you do it every day.....it will finally be true and there will be no more pretending.

It still sucks the breath out of me to hear how badly he treated you and the horrible things he said to you when you were having sex with him. I am so glad that you stopped that. B/c he has been so mean and ugly to you, I hope you will make a determination to work hard at moving forward with your life and stop having any connection with him. The fact that your son is 19 will help a lot. When there are small children in the D, that is very difficult. Of course, the son will always be "the" connection between you and XH and down through the years there will be certain events for the son that you and H will both be there. But don't despair about that. When that time comes, you will have grown with grace and poise and will have so much self-confidence it will knock the socks off of everyone around! BTW, I don't know the deal behind calling your XH about the son, but since he is grown, I hope you will try extra hard to make things where the son has to be responsible for his own debts, actions, etc., and not contact XH everytime son does something that concerns you. I know when you are use to talking to the other parent about those things that it comes naturally, but since things are not on a "friendly" note with your X, then it is best to leave him out of it. Apparently, he has chosen to leave you to be the one there for his son.....so......

Let's talk about your R with your son. My sister has a bully for a H and her son is older than yours but still living at home. Her son has grown up to watch his father treat his mother in a very disrespectful way, so guess how he treats his mother? You got it! It makes me sick to watch this and I tried to tell my sister when my nephew was just a kid that it was going to happen, but she did not have the guts to take charge and stand up for herself. Therefore, she has two men in her home who shows no respect for her.

Your son is simply doing what he has been taught by the behavior laid out before him. Futhermore, he will treat all women just like he has seen his dad treat you. Is that what you want? My nephew talks to other girls disrespectful b/c that is the only way he knows how to deal with women. I promise that he will treat other women the way he treats you. It is not too late to change him. It will be very hard b/c you've let him get away with way too much for way too long! However, as long as he is living under your roof, then you do have an advantage. First of all....stop spoiling him! Don't spoil him b/c of the D. Stop acting like the D was your fault. He will blame you if you have the attitude that the D was your fault. Don't go around with a hound-dog look on your face and for sure don't act like you are hopeless and nobody will/could ever love you again! These types of actions only get more disrespect from those around you. Your son will not think "more" of you or feel sorry for you....he could, however, take the opposite side and think the worst of you. That is not what you want to happen. In order to mold him into the man he needs to be, you have to do certain things for yourself......for his good. You will have to be strict with him (even at 19) for his good. Of course, he will resist this b/c he has had it made and he may try to get rougher, but stick to your guns and don't let him get away with anything.

I was watching a reality show the other night where a woman had a son about 21 who would swear at her and say awful vulgar words and insult her even out in public. She said it was b/c he saw his dad do that when she was M. But.....she did nothing to put a stop to it now! He would disrespect her so badly in a crowd of people and she would just brush it off. He needed his face slapped! No way would I allow my grown son to talk to me like that. I would not let any age child of mine talk to me that way. My son is almost your age, and he is a big man, but if I had to climb up in a chair to get his attention you better believe I would. However, I raised him from the time he was born how to treat women. You know what my DIL has done? She has thanked me over and over again for the way I raised him b/c he treats her like a queen. Don't you know that that is about the greatest compliment I could receive? You can do this. Yes, it will be hard since so much time has passed, but you can do it. You just have to make a "believer" out of him and be consistant. You will never feel good about yourself as long as your own son doesn't treat you with respect. Don't let a day pass or a wrong word or look.......don't let it go unnoticed and let it slip by without dealing with it right then and there. Will you do it?

Another way to make him more responsible and by sure....respect his mom, if for you to make him take care of his own clothes (washing and putting away, etc.), his own car and upkeep (if he has a car) and his own room clean.....and any other things he has. You are not his maid, so don't behave like one. Don't wait on him hand and foot. Make him get his own things. Maybe this never is a problem and if not...that is good. If it is, however, then I would sit him down and tell him things are going to change and now! He won't believe you, probably, so you will have to prove it. One thing.....never shout or yell at him. Talk calmly but sternly. That will get his attention quicker. Never argue with him. You are the parent and it is your house he is staying in. Does not matter if he is 80, he must respect his mother! Alway, always back up what you say. Don't threat, just back up what you said you would do. That means you will have to say what you mean or you may be sorry. You said you had been a good mother, so I am hoping you will not have these problems. I hope I have thrown in a lot of things that were not necessary.

I am so sorry that your Mother abused you sweetie. I believe that is a huge reason for you feeling so unworthy and wanting somebody to love you. You have a desparate "need" for another person to want you in their life. Your mother did not abuse you b/c you were bad and not worthy of her love or devotion, etc. She had problems that she did not deal with correctly. She must have had some bad issues for your dad to leave his family. Don't blame yourself. If you don't, then try to tell yourself each day that you deserved better than what you got! Nobody deserves to be abused by a parent. Abusive parents have troubled souls, but that is no excuse for them to take it out on children. I hope you can heal for what happened in the past. I hope you will be able to reach a place that you can even find forgiveness......not b/c she deserves it, but for your sake and peace of mind. Maybe you were able to do this already. I think it may have made her passing a more difficult time for you that maybe a person who had not had to deal with that type of upbringing. (((Renee))) You can take your time to tell me whatever you need to about anything that happen or things you are still trying to deal with. I hope to hear that you were able to burry things with her and set yourself free of that torture. For what it is worth, I don't think you are having a pity-party. You had more than the usual person to face and it takes a long time to heal over things like that, especially if you have not had professional help. BTW, are you still taking medication?

You spoke of the crowd you ran with at school and not living up to the expections you felt were placed on you........did your mother make you feel the same way? Did you also place too much high standards for yourself? I think that often ends in a case of very low self esteem. Other things do too, of course.

Going back to the old boyfriend who joined the military......I am glad you are not having any contact with him. The fact that you do not want to think of another man touching you now is really a good thing. I say that b/c if you did not feel that way, you could be too vulnerable for a "rebound" relationship. That may be exactly what the military man is looking for b/c of his own M problems. If he was so in love with you, he had a poor way of showing it all these years, right? So, good judgement about that situation!

Okay, about reading the DR book.......have you checked with the Amazon Books on line? They have used books they sell very cheap. Your local libray may have a copy.....I don't know, but you could check. There are several places here on the board that have the first chapters in her book. Also, you probably have noticed that there are many of her articles posted which are very good reads. I wouldn't say that it was absolutly necessary to get the book since you are already D, but if you have an opportunity to read it, it sure wouldn't hurt. You do get a lot from the board here, so if that is the way to get information.....then that's good enough.

Have you checked out the forum for the divorced? I don't think I have really read much, but it might be helpful. I'm not saying you have to move your thread there, just wondered if you have read any of the posts or talked to any of them. Where ever you have your thread, just be sure to stay in one place so it doesn't get confusing.

I better get read for bed. Sometimes I'm not feeling well and don't get to post, so don't worry if you don't hear from me for a couple of days. I do try to get on the board each day that I can.

Renee, I have great hopes for you sweetie. You've had a hard time of it and we are going to get through this yucky time and get you moving forward with your life.....okay?

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi, thank you so much for taking the time to post to me.
So many things you have said since you have been posting to me has brought tears to my eyes because I know they are sooo true.
I have struggled so much trying to figure out why my xh is doing what he is doing to our family. That is why I put so much thought into the MLC thing. Some people say it is an illness and is to be treated like an illness and I sure wouldnt want to be mean to anyone, especially my xh, if he is ill. He did however walk off and leave us after threatening to the past few months, maybe even a year. My son even would say dad isnt leaving he always says this, just leave him alone mom and he will be fine.
During the past 2 years, now looking back, our marriage was starting to decline. We would argue more and it seemed my xh always raised his voice and cursed alot.BUT...a little while later he would say he was sorry and we would make up and things would be ok for awhile. It was like he wanted out, but couldnt imagine living without us and was scared to take that step. It's like he wanted to leave but couldnt find the courage and felt too bad about it to do it, so he stayed. We did fight more, we could never stay mad long though, but the last 2 years we started going to bed mad, something we NEVER done before. Actually after a while I started to think I was unhappy with things and it was my unhappiness that was causing his. (hope I didnt confuse you).
I must have started sensing things, because I started saying things like "dont ever leave me" and he would say, "you dont ever have to worry about that, I couldnt imagine living without you and son".
I dont know if you read all my threads but just in case you didnt let me post what took place the last year or so. I often said and even to him once, after all this, I dont blame you for running, I sometimes wish I could of ran to, but I couldnt and wouldnt.

***Husband's best friend and Capt. on the police force
retired. H had it easier when he was there.

***Husband lost his job because he became careless and in the
I dont care about my job mode. I guess he thought he was
irreplaceable.

***Financial trouble, especially with home
***At this time, h started working out faithfully everyday.
***H and I decided we could not keep our home and moved out
into a rental home.
***H started disliking his vol job of being FIRE CHIEF for
over 8 years and resigned. Very much not like him. He loved
being fire chief.
***H took job with best friend and retired capt. at Nursing
Home.
***After about 3 months, h changed shifts at work from 3rd to
1st and became supervisor.
***H and I decided to keep our home and after just 3 months of
moving out we moved back to our home. 20 years worth of
stuff moved twice in 3 months!
***During the move back home, my mother became very ill and
lost her battle with leukemia.

In all honesty our family went through more in one year then in the past 19.
During all of this, my son and h were fighting constantly about son getting a job, which he needed to. I think the pressure of all the above and arguing with son got to be too much. Xh even said once, I am leaving you can go with me if you want, I am not arguing with him anymore.

When xh told son we were seperating, he also told son he had to live with me. Son was very upset at first.

Anyway, just wanted to kinda feel you in.
I have to go to bed now, but tomorrow I will write about the things my mother and I went through.

Sandi, I have never been one to want to be alone. Also, I get real close to female friends really easy. I didnt have a mother daughter relationship, nor did I have any sisters or daughters...so I felt like I was starving for female companionship sometimes.

You know it's funny that you say xh's MLC probably started 2 years ago and just came to a head. He told me when he decided to sep. that he was tired of leading me on...(and he probably was).

I will end now and write more tomorrow. Thank you again!

Hugs,
Renee

hi SL... i think its a pretty common thing to look back and realise the midlife crisis started a long time ago. I think thats part of it.. it doesnt help of course but it clarifies things I guess.

I think they are very aware of the damage they do to their family and children. I think thats just part of what keeps them running. Men and women are different... women tend to want to nurture and heal but with men, they want to FIX it and when they decide... I CANT FIX THIS... they decide to throw it out instead - get a new model - start again. as callous as that sounds. if they give up on any idea of fixing, they toss it away. thats their mentality, and unlike women, they tend to do it decisively and strongly and with determination not to look back. its very painful.

i think in the end sometimes they decide that running away is the 'strong' thing to do. we think they're being weak but they dont they think they're being the 'strong one'. they think by running and forcing us to accept their absence they are doing us a favor. i really saw that in my ex, still do. if theres a lot of shame involved they get a mentality they dont 'deserve' to go back and they also believe it 'cant be fixed'. ie i did too much. we cannot convince them otherwise.

i think you have been really strong, and will continue to do so, and just being true to yourself and honest, what else can you really do in the end? we cant control someone else, or their feelings, or what they want. we can call them sick, we can say they arent the same person, but they have the rights to choose their own life and make their own mistakes; and pointin them out only makes them more determined to go their way.

dont feel unworthy for loving him and wanting your family back. dont be like that bc its a strength to love someone and you had a lot invested and a lot of history. your not a victim your just someone who had smething had happen and wants her life and family back and thats not a shameful thing, it doesnt mean you are like some kind of beaten wife; look how many of us there are! you are a loving person, you appreciated what you had this is good - look how many give up so soon. be proud of who you are. we all get thru this at our own pace with many changes back and forth. theres no rules. theres no 'strong' and 'weak' way of dealing with it.

Hi again, I hope you are feeling well today and maybe even a bit stronger. If you have a day now and then that you do feel stronger, that is a good sign b/c it means you are growing and you are healing. I believe you do have lots of healing to do but not just over the M problems, but over all your years of hurt and disappointment.

You said you did not want to be mean to your XH if being in MLC was like an illness. In a way, it seems like an illness, but people must handle their R in different ways. Even the DR book gives more than one strick way of dealing with a WAS. BTW, I don't think you should be mean to your XH or try to get revenge in any way. I do think you need to come to terms with how things are now and try to make a life for yourself and move forward. I think that there are things that has happened that has left you feeling unloved, unworthy, and of no value to anyone. That is not true.....but I think it is how you "feel" at this time. You have based your value on other things and now those things have come tumbling down and you feel lost and hopeless. I do wish you could let go of what has happened with you and your XH b/c until you can do that.....you will never get to feeling better about life, yourself, and other relationships. You will not be able to feel happy, valued, and free to grow as an individual. These things are most important for your well being. Nobody can make that happen but "you". I'm sure that detaching yourself from what "once was" has been very difficult. I do believe you need to set a goal for yourself to try to reach every day. It should be a small goal that is reasonable and that you will feel good about accomplishing.

It is fine to come here to talk about your XH and the things that went wrong or what once was good, etc. However, let me try to gently point something out to you, okay? I spoke a lot of you and your self esteem in my last post. I suggested some daily goals or "steps" for you to do to try to start feeling better about yourself. But when you replied to my post, you wrote the same things that you have posted many, many times before......that being all about your XH. It's okay and I'm not fussing at you.....I want you to fully understand that. It's just that not one time did you mention anything about what you might do to help yourself. It was as if it was ignored. I could be very blunt and tell you that frankly I don't care what your XH did in the past or what he is doing now b/c the two of you are not a couple any longer and he has moved on with OW. I could tell you to forget about that jerk and make a life for yourself and stop living in the past. I could point out the fact that I do not see a person who is trying to get a life for herself and is wallowing in sorrow and self-pity. However, I am not telling you those things! I don't know, but I have a feeling that you have basically been told that before by somebody on the board and they grew frustrated with you and felt that you were not cooperating.......am I correct or is it my imagination? As I told you in the beginning, I will try to be here and help you just as long as you show that you are at least "trying" to make some personal growth in your life. I will listen to your sorrow for a time, but after a significate period has past and you are still saying the same thing over and over about your XH and you are not taking any steps at all to try to improve your personal growth, then I too will grow very frustrated. Now please understand what I am saying, Renee. I am not saying that I have no compassion or understanding...okay? It is simply that I will not know how to help you if you don't try to help yourself and I will no longer know what to say to you. I am not a professional counselor, but I wish I were and knew just the words to say. Don't think that I am agrivated with you b/c I'm not. I am only concerned that you are still saying the same thing in almost every post. I do understand why you updated me on the activities that happened and I appreciate your time in doing that. However, I did read about that before. So, I think I have most of the details about the MR. I just want you to be able to get past all of that stuff that happened and realize that you can do NOTHING about it. You can't change what has happened in the past.....you can only work toward a better future. Will you do that? Will you work to lay this behind you and look toward tomorrow? As long as you look "back" at what has transpired, you will never go anywhere. What good does it do to stand in one spot and continue to look where you have been? Nothing, except maybe learn from it, but you must turn your head and look straight ahead and put one foot in front of the other in order to "walk". I want you to start moving and begin that new, fresh walk toward your tomorrow. You are afraid and feel insecure and certainly without any self esteem. So....my question for you is what are your plans to do in order to change that?

I have asked similar questions before and they were unanswered. You did great at answering the questions I asked about your growing up years or your MR, however, you didn't respond to some of these type of questions except to agree that your self esteem was very low. I have some ideas that may work to help you but I need to see you trying to make a move to help yourself. All I can do is make suggestions, but it is up to you to do the work. So......are you trying to do as I suggested and look at yourself in that mirror everyday and say the things I told you to say? You may feel silly if you've never talked to yourself before.....but don't knock it until you've tried it. Talk to that reflection as if she was your best friend. That is the point. You must learn to be your own best friend and in order to do that....you've got to like Renee. If "you" don't like her.....rest assured that nobody else will!

So that is what I need to know, sweetie. Have you done anything that I suggested or anyone else has tried to get you to do?

I'll be anxious to hear from you.

Take care,
Sandi

Okay, I need to back up........

I'm sorry b/c I have been sick and should not always post when I am like that b/c I think my days get confussed! I can't believe that I made the post (before last) after midnight--which actually made it....this morning!! It seems like days ago. So, if I sounded impatient, I apologize--sincerely. I don't change my mind about what I said, but I did think it had been longer and was wanting to hear that you had started something to make progress in your self growth..........

(Maybe I need to retire from the board!) So embarrasing! You may not have any "confidence" in me after this episode, and I sure wouldn't blame you.

Sandi

Renee, I agree with Sandi about folks here getting frustrated and don't know how to help you if you won't take what they say to heart. You say that you listen to what they say, but what good does that do if you don't act on it?

By the same token, I see why you may be confused. One minute, posters are saying they don't believe your sitch is MLC, then it isn't, then it is again. I would have whiplash too.

The main thing is that your ex has moved on and you need to as well.

Kimmie and Sandi this post is for the both of you. (Sandi I will post to you personally in a bit). First, I DO appreciate all the effort and the things you are trying to do for me, I cant say that enough. Now...the both of you have said that I am listening and doing nothing to help myself. At the risk of sounding stupid and totally confused, truly I dont know what things you all and others on here "want me to do????", really I dont.

I have went back to college to get a degree in nursing (starting in Aug)

I go out EVERY nite almost, either to eat with a friend or just to visit with a friend, or sometimes I have friends over. I never was one to sit at home, even when I was married unless xh and I were watching tv or cooking, he fished alot or was at the fire dept., so I either went with him or went to friends.

Also, I have been tanning.
Got a New Hairstyle
Losing Weight
Going to Church
Working around the house...finally!
Trying to find a better paying job!
Getting ready to start my photography again
Checked into Digital Scrapbook Designs (may be a consultant)
and other little things.

Honestly please tell me what more can I do. I am just either stupid or just plain dumb, because I am misunderstanding what everyone here is saying. Everyone is telling me to GAL but I keep saying I am, but no ones seems to understand that.
Yes, I love my xh and I can not stop that as much as I wish I could. And yes I post alot about him because I think of him alot and cant seem to get past that part. I wish almost every day to have my family back, yes even after what he has done. I pray for him to be healed of whatever happened with him and for us to start a new 20 years. I know, however that he has to make that move and I can NOT force him. Guys, I do have good days, the crying has ceased (except for that very bad time of the month), and I dont walk around in a daze, but at the same time, I am not jumping for joy that I am single again. To be honest, I dont know when I will want another man, I wish I had a man, my man, but not another one.

I am sorry if I sound ungrateful, but I just dont understand.

Renee

Ok...Sandi, this one is for you (mom, lol).
First, I do post the same stuff over and over, I do realize this SOMETIMES, sometimes I do not because my memory is shot and I dont know how to find or post my past threads. Also, I try to update everyone I talk to because I dont know who reads my posts or not. If you met me in person, I am one of those people who makes a short story looooonggg. I talk, talk, and talk. I also repeat myself in real life, I think my memory has been affected by this and I am NOT joking. I have even apoligzed in some posts for this. So forgive me please.
I will try and go back and re-read my posts.
Also, I dont mean to ignore what you asked me to do, if I did, I am SORRY. I am very glad you are taking the time to help me as I was with others here such as Snodderly. I am sure Snodderly as well as others is just plain fed up with me, they think I am going nowhere real fast. As in the above post to you and Kimmie, maybe I DONT understand what is needed of me other than GAL, which I am doing. Maybe I am not communicating enought about that. I will try better to do that also.
Sandi, I do have days now and then that I feel stronger, the sing and dance kind of days. It's the anger that my xh has that sets me back. I can handle the divorce but not the anger.
Can you tell me if there is anything I can do to make it easier for the both of us and our son. I dont want to have to walk around town on pins and needles worrying about bumping into him in the same restaurant and him getting an epo because he thinks I planned it. He says he learned from the best at playing games and the best was "me". He says he doesnt trust me.
Please tell me how to drop the rope, as they say. I dont want to be stuck. How can I let go of what has happened.
What kind of small goals are you talking about, am I not doing enough already.
Yes others have told me the same thing as you, but let me say this...I thought that It was ok to come here to talk about xh. I thought this board was about trying to save your marriage. I KNOW that I am divorced already, but I didnt get the chance to DB. I didnt find this board until I was already divorced (I think), and even though I am divorced I am still trying to stand for my family. I am trying to go on with my life, while leaving the door ajar. I pray about it and I dont feel like GOD has said to let go yet, I just dont. No matter what my xh says, or anyone else. I will keep praying for my family. Now, this does not mean I will not GAL and move on daily. Yes I need to get stronger and yes I need to drop the rope for now and that I am trying to do with people like yourself helping to teach me how.
Honestly I did not know I was repeating myself as bad as you all say. I also dont want to drown in my sorrow.
Sandi, I wanted to ask you, in your opinion, how much farther along this path should I be by now. Am i really that far behind, should I have been alot better by now. I know everyone is different, but I see people here talking like me that has been in this for 2 years or longer. I am just now right at 6 months divorced. I didnt think I was doing that bad.

So....my question for you is what are your plans to do in order to change that?

I honestly dont know what else I can do other than what I am doing, except maybe stop talking about my xh as much on this board, and really I thought I could do that. I am soooo confused. I am sorry.

So that is what I need to know, sweetie. Have you done anything that I suggested or anyone else has tried to get you to do?

The mirror thing no, but I will start.
Other than that just the stuff that I listed above.

Renee

Sandi, I also wanted to add that I will do better about putting my foot down on my son more.
He does help out around the house alot, it's just his attitude that is so much like his dad's that I have a problem with.

Also, I wanted to add that everyone here, as I said, seems to think I repeat myself. I got to thinking...my xh and son always told me the same thing. They would say I would ask the same questions over and over. I thought they were just picking at me and thought nothing of it. My xh said I would dwell on things too much.
Maybe there is something wrong with me that makes me do this without even knowing it.
Sandi, some people here have told me to try and figure out where I went wrong in the marriage. Maybe this was one of those things that help ruin it. I dont know, and I probably never will because xh was unwilling to go to c.

Renee

Sandi I also wanted to ask you if most of the MLC'ers tell the lbs to move on and find someone else to make them happy? My xh seemed really sincere about me finding someone else and moving on.
I dont ever remember asking that, I was just wondering.
Hope you are having a nice weekend.

Hugs,
Renee

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

BTW, you have read the DR book, right?
No I havent, I cant really afford to buy it and I am divorced and I didnt know if I still needed to read it anyway.

Hi sunshine, I don't follow your whole threads but was skimming this morning while having coffee. This caught my attention, and I call BS. It's easy to come here and post and post and post and come up with excuses for how not to do your own work. You've been here how long and haven't read the books? and you can't afford them? BS. I couldn't afford them when I first started because 'our' income had been cut in less than half. I went to the library. It's free. You can also try half price book stores, good will stores, etc......
Still can't afford the books? but you're tanning and going out almost every night. Priorities, where are yours? just wondering.
Take care.

Dear Renee,

I had hoped you would see my "tag post" where I realized that I had gotten confussed about the dates, etc., and thought it had been a lot more time passed than it had. I was shocked when I saw that it had been less than 24 hours! That makes me think something is wrong with me! If my brain is getting that confused....then maybe I need to stop posting. The last thing I meant to do was to hurt you by my words. As I told you in the beginning.....I speak bluntly and to the point and that was one of the things I sort of held back about and wondered if I was the right person to try to help you with anything. When a person is already suffering in their life, it doesn't help for another one to come along and hit them over the head with a club and I'm afraid that is my technique a lot of the times......due to my own impatience.

As I told you in my post.......Yes, you can come here freely to post.....to journal.....about your XH and anything else that is bothering you! It was my "bad" that I missed the time span that you had actually been divorced. I was consentrating more on trying to get you to start working on your self esteem b/c I felt that until you felt better about yourself, you would not be able to truly be happy and would continue to cling to "what may have been". That was my urgency in the matter. However, I realize these things take time and I should not have pushed you so hard. I did not know you were doing all those things to GAL and am very glad to hear about it. I must have missed that part and read all the posts that were sounding alike. At any rate, I don't want you to be hurt at me or anybody else on the board. I know for me, when I have been here on the board as long as I have and reading sooooo many posts.....it is easy to get some of them mixed up and confuse the dates. It is always embarrasing to me but it happens. I can't really speak for everyone.....just "Sandi", but a lot of times I probably need to back away for a while b/c I do sense the impatience in myself b/c I want to see faster progress in a person's stitch. It is thrilling when you see a person apply techniques that actually make a difference in their life. But, it has to be up to that individual......I have no control over it.

As I told you before, you remind me of some people who have been close over the years and I think it was b/c I was seeing a "replay" of sorts and ..........well, let's just put it down to bad timing and my poor posting.......okay? I don't want you to stop b/c you think you cannot say what you feel you "need" to say in order to deal with your stitch. You said you could not afford counseling/therapy, so this should be your souce of therapy. I know it was for me when I came on board.

Some posters are most blunt and some are down right "brutal" in their words, but you have to pick those that you feel you make a connection with and who seem to really want to help you. If you do not feel that "click" with the poster, then don't let it get to you b/c we all have our own opinions.

I was refering to any "goals" that you had tried to set for yourself. I had suggested talking to yourself in the mirror or whatever worked best. Some may think that is a silly way to do self therapy but you can try and if you don't like it then chose some other way. I am trying to start at the bottom to find a way to help you to learn to like yourself and to build your esteem. As I said, I'm no professional, but I have read a lot about the subject and I don't remember as well as I use to, but I know that that is a way to start.......with "self talk".

I do believe very strongly in prayer to God. I could talk for days about the ways He has answered my prayers and worked in the lives of my family. The point is that He will help you to get past this hurt and He will help you heal from the things that has happened to you in the past. In most areas, I feel that things should be left completely up to God without our "help". But compare it to looking for a job and asking Him to make one available. If we did not at least attempt to go looking, would He have an company president or some employer come to our door and ask us to come to work for them? Guess we could get off into a lot of debate in stuff like that and that is not my point. My point is that in the area of your self esteem, I believe you need to do whatever you can to raise your esteem. I think you should ask God to heal your hurt and to be able to deal with what the past has dished out to you......and He will! I feel that this board can be an avenue or source to help you in small steps.......and I hope you won't quit based on something one of us may have said.

I do believe you are trying, sweetie. I admit I pushed too hard too quickly and I apologize for that. I will try to slow down and give you more time.

Quote:

Oh yes, that is what we call "script" for the MLC/WAS b/c it is so typical. In fact, everything your H has done is very typical. It may have been all the changes in his work related areas in his life plus the stress of everything together that triggered his "change". We could guess at what it was and we could wonder if it is symptons of MLC or WAS or whatever, but it is best to look at the results and the facts as they stand today. The symptons of a WAS and one in MLC are so similar that it is really no use in putting yourself through the agnony of wondering which is which. It doesn't change what the end results have been is what I'm trying to say. Another lady I have been posting to is wondering the same thing about her H so she will know how to "respond" to him. Actually, the techniques of DBing do not always depend on whether it is WAS or MLC. Some stories may vary and there may be a unique stitch where things may be done a bit differently, but I can assure you that your stitch is NOT unique. It is a classic storybook case. Not a happy storybook, but classic never-the-less.

I understand you wanting to keep the door ajar where your H is concerned. I do not find fault with you about that. As long as you don't wish your life away, hoping that some day he will change his mind. It may or may not happen. You will always have love for him b/c we don't necessarily stop loving a person just b/c they did us wrong. However, I do believe that you COULD find happiness without him in your life. You probably don't ever see that happening from where you sit right now......but it CAN if you will allow it to happen. Renee, I think divorce is like a death. It is a death.........death of a M. I have been touched by it all around me except for me and my H. It is a tragedy.......in most cases, anyway. But just like in the case of a love one's death, we have to learn to move on. I think you must "grieve" over this loss and get through it where you will be able to be a healthy person afterwards. Until you grieve properly, it won't ever be "settled" in your mind. Does that make sense? Yes, it will take time and I should have been more aware that it had only been six months. That is not near long enough to have completely adjusted to a new life. You still have those tendancies to dwell on the past and rehash what he did and said and all the details surrounding the MR. Again, that is normal. You are NOT stupid! I never implied you were and don't do that to yourself, okay? I think a person has to be pretty smart to come here and pick up on all this lingo about DR & DB and all the terms used......especially when they have not read the book. I don't even think that it is an absolute that you "read" the DR book right now. If he leaves his GF and you think he is trying to make contact with you, etc., then you would probably want to read a copy to see the best way to respond to the situation. However, at this time, I think going dark (which is simply staying away from him and not contacting him) is the best way for you to go. IMHO, it is the "only" way to go.

I hope you read this soon b/c I hate to think you go another day with hurt feelings toward me or anyone else here. Try to regroup and start again, okay?

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi I could NEVER be upset with you. I hope you dont think I am, you are being so nice to take time to try and help me through a difficult time.
Before I contacted you I actually was going to take a break from these boards because I was afraid I was letting them give me too much hope and holding me back from moving forward, but then I was reading one of your posts and thought maybe I should talk to you first, and I am glad I did. You already have helped me more than you know.
Sandi, yes it's only been 6 months since I was divorced and only 8 months since he left, but I feel like I am not moving quick enough. I want to be over this already, but 20 years is a long time...I cant seem to get past that I lived with this man for 20 years and feel like I didnt even know him. I feel like my whole marriage has been a lie, and that hurts more than anything. That along with his anger toward me and him saying he wanted to pretend like I was dead to him. I could take the divorce, but I am the mother of his child and he owes me respect for that in itself. I dont know if you read, but I really did some pretty stupid things in the beginning, such as begging him to come home and begging him to just see me on lunch. BUT the worse thing I did was stalk him. Yes I would try to catch him and see who he had at his house and try to talk to that girl. I did this with one girl in particular and he really wanted to date her but when she talked to me she dumped him. That is when I was trying to do things myself instead of letting go and letting GOD.
I would never do that now. Thats why I tried to people here that I have moved on, I am not doing CRAZY stuff like that anymore.lol
I know that is why my xh doesnt trust me and I would like to win his trust back. But I do think this gf is telling him not to talk to me also, I could be wrong. I wont go into all that.
Anyway I do appreciate all that you are doing.
I am not the best to post about stuff so maybe everyone didnt realize that I was trying to GAL. I know I have made Snodderly upset with me, I know she got tired of telling me the same thing over and over. She wont even post to me now. I really respected what she had to say and I hope she isnt too upset with me.
I was reading what you posted about one poster wanting to know about MLC or WAS. Sandi, does it matter how we respond to them if they are just WAS? This is one of the things I have wondered. I know my xh walked away, but I also believe he is in a MLC.
Either way, like you said, he is gone. For how long, only GOD knows.
Like I said I pray for my family daily or try to. I also pray for people here.

I also wanted to ask you Sandi about your stitch. Were you a LBS or did you walk away? Are you and your h back together and how long were you apart? I would love to read about your stitch.
It seems you know so much. Snodderly has also been here a long time, I think at least 9 years.
I have heard that alot of xh's, h's wake up after the LBS has moved on. I had heard that alot before I even come here.
I dont know what will happen with my stitch but I am trying to move on with my life regardless, I really have no choice.
I do love GOD with all my heart and trust him with my life.
With that said, I will go for now and talk to you later.

HUGS,
Renee

P.S. Snodderly if you read this I hope you will post to me again. I know you are only trying to help me. And I thank you for that.

I'm so relieved that you found my post and replied before I went to bed tonight. I just had a feeling that you may leave the board and I wanted a chance to speak to you again. So, I hope you will stay on longer, but if it seems to make you feel negative or whatever, then you don't want to stay if it hurts you. Just try not to take all those nasty things he said to you and believe them b/c we are not believe any of that junk they say. They are just lashing out and don't mean any of it. It is doing you harm to remember it so try to let that roll off and get rid of it for your sake. Have you ever thought of getting a punching bag and hanging up somewhere and when you get upset or stressed or depressed.....just going out there and punching that bag until you were exhausted? You might be surprised how much it would help.

I have been trying to post my first post here but for some reason it won't do it. I have done this many times so I'll keep trying.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...410#Post1116410

There we go...

Brace yourself. I am not proud of this. But this is where I was when I came on the board.

Sandi

Renee
I have tried to catch up with your stitch so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. This is all so very new for you. On the one hand you seem anxious to move on but on the other you are stuck. That is so normal. That was so me. It will take time and lots of it. Also it is what you do with that time. I wanted my h back also and I stood for four years. I knew it was time to move on but I was stubborn. I put up with a lot from my h. But I was determined.
Anyway, I decided to really change my life and move forward. I am still healing. I have moved on and I did so without ever dating. I wanted to become a whole complete person myself. One important step is to figure out what you did wrong in the m and to work on yourself. Work on things to make your self whole again. Work on yourself inside and out.

I still miss my family but I do not miss my h. He is still so immature and I could not live with the person he is and will probably always will be. So in that way I am grateful that I have my freedom.

Do not rush your recovery but take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time. Also take time to grieve. Your old m is dead. Don't rush the greiving and healing process.

Then take time to GAL. It is difficult at first but it gets easier with time.

Good post, Mermaid!

Mermaid I am anxious one min and not the next. Yes I get stuck. I cant imagine ever loving another man the way I loved my husband. I cant imagine ever living with another man. I dont want to, I want my husband back! I get so wound up sometimes. Some days I think I can do this, I dont need a man, especially one that is like my xh is now. Then some days I pray so hard for GOD to give us another chance. I can tell you one thing, I dont want the man back that he is right now.
I have grown so much. I am so much braver than I ever thought I was, my xh that used to be, would be so proud of me. It's so sad because he doesnt see how I've changed.
I got to the point I would not go anywhere outside my comfort zone (which would be around town)by myself. I def. would not go on a vaction with friends or anywhere like that without my husband and/or son. I was so attached to him it was pathetic. Then when he would go on vacation with buddies I would think how lucky he was. I didnt want him to stay over 2 weeks and I missed him so much as did he me. BUT NOW, I would not mind if he stayed a month as long as he came home to me.
It is so funny how we take things for granted. The little things we take for granted in our marriage that we never even realized. Oh, what I would give just to hear him coming through the door after work and yelling "I am home mom". I miss that so much.
Sorry guys just going down memory lane. I know I am not suppose to dwell on my xh, but in order to move on I have to learn what I DID WRONG and part of that will include my xh.
I wasnt a really a clingly wife, at least I thought I wasnt. I never complained about him fishing as much as he did. I enjoyed listening to him talk to the guys on the phone while I fixed supper. It made me happy for him to be happy.
When he said he wanted different companionship, to me that was saying "hey I am bored and want to try something new". And he did, he gave up his family, took a chance on being happier. He is loving his new life, as far as I know. He is enjoying this new found love and romance, so much so that he spends every min. that he is not working with her.
Sometimes I try to put myself in these MLCers shoes and try and think how exciting it would be to be young again and find new love, but that has to get old at same point, at some point it isnt new love anymore. Just like a new hobby that grows old. Even when going on a vacation, at first it is soooo exciting and new but after awhile you get to missing home and get homesick. I dont know that is just my opinion on it.
Is it normal to, one day want someone in your life and the next you are thinking you dont ever want to be married again and can live content by yourself the rest of your life?????
I am so confused, i am stuck between moving on with someone else, if I ever get that chance or just NOT, just living my life alone. I have always been one to look toward the future and plan things. I worry about tomorrow before tomorrow gets here. I know, that is not a good idea and I would love to change.

Day by day, min. by min. I try to tell myself.

Hugs,
Renee

Can someone please tell me why I am still hung up on a man that doesnt want me???????????
What is wrong with me!!!
Sandi, I def. need that punching bag.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

Can someone please tell me why I am still hung up on a man that doesnt want me???????????
What is wrong with me!!!
......

If you ever figure this one out, Renee, be sure and share it with me (and a bunch of others here too!!)

You and I have a LOT in common, Renee. I am a very emotional person and I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve (and I've frustrated the life out of Snodderly myself I know!!).

Hang in there, Renee. I think some things just take time.

((((((hugs))))))

Sc what is your alt univ name again?

Hi, Renee.

Look up "SChrldr" in the alt......

Oh, and don't be surprised if you don't get a reply quickly....I don't have access to DB or the alt from work....

SC and Renee,
Never, ever assume what others are thinking....that gets you into trouble and barking up the wrong tree.

Be thankful I've not had anything to add to the excellent postings that both of you have received.

Hey Renee....I just want to say this is exactly how I feel everyday....you described me to a tee....I have had no contact at all with him or our daughter...she misses him so much but she is so mad at him for not even trying to call her to make sure she is ok.... like Snodderly has said they go back to the teenage years and it is so true because he is playing the you call me first game,like a little kid who is being stubborn and having a fit cause he cant get his way.....I am so glad I caught this post...I needed to hear that someone else felt this way......

Originally Posted By: snodderly

Hey, Snodderly.

I hope you know that I absolutely meant no disrespect at all!! Quite the contrary......I just meant that I too have struggled with following what my head tells me I should do, and the great advice I receive, rather than what my fear and instincts implore me to do!

And I always really value your wise advice......

Snodderly I second what SC said.
I too respect your opinion more than you know. That is why I was worried that I had upset you. I sure didnt want to offend you. You have helped me so much.

IRMAC, keep on keeping on. You are stronger than you know.
Just so you know, I have those days were I get so mad at myself for even thinking of my xh. I say what I said before...why in the world do I want someone who doesnt even want to be with me.
AND THEN some days I can just cry to think about what has happened and miss my xh soooo much. I dont miss the man he is now, but the man he was. Sometimes I feel like he has amnessia and doesnt know who he is. I have even questioned why I am the one suffering, when I am trying to live right. BUT I know that GOD has helped me through more times than I even know and I couldnt have made it this far without him.
IRMAC whatever you do, dont give up on GOD, GOD sees way down the road and knows whats best for us, put it in his hands and let him do the work, he doesnt need our help.
It know how hard it is to go on with our lives, but we can do it. Just put all your trust in GOD. Believe in HIM with all your heart and dont give up.

I am here for you IRMAC
Hugs,
Renee

Ladies,
One of the lessons that we talk about here is to never "assume" anything. That is why I pointed it out to you. Even in your every day living, you can't "assume" what the other person may be thinking or why they aren't communicating w/you or doing something that you want them to do.

If and when I do have something to post, I will. Renee, you've been given excellent advice by all and I do not have anything of value to add to their postings at this time.

Quote:

Can someone please tell me why I am still hung up on a man that doesnt want me???????????
What is wrong with me!!!

I believe this is something a psy doctor could have a field day in teaching us all this lesson. In "Sandi's" opinion.....a great deal is in the individual's complete "make-up" as a person. Their personality, thought process, personal belief's & concepts........everything about them. I used to think that the parent's influence had the most to do in people being turned the way they are, but I think I have changed my mind. I've lived long enough to see too many kids raised by the same parents and they all turn out with their own vastly different POV, self-esteem, and so on. Of course, it should be that way, but I find it fasinating. I've spoke to you about my younger sister and how different she is from me. She had the same influence from the same parents as I did but she "used" to seem weak to me b/c she had very low self esteem and acted as if she could not think for herself and did whatever she was told by anyone......except me or our parents! That is what amazed me. She would usually end up doing the opposite from whatever we tried to tell her. The past several years, she has slowly drifted away from me b/c she feels inferior and thinks people are comparing us and expect her to be like me (which is not the case). When I was younger and a lot more immature, I would get so frustrated with her b/c she "was" so different from me and I could not understand why she was like she was. That is not to say she does not have her own good qualities, talents, etc., but she seems to feel so inferior around our mother and me until she shuts us out of her life. I think that is so sad and we've tried to talk to her, but it does no good.

When she loves a man, she completely opens herself to him. Nothing is held back and I think she is the type that just "soaks" in every ounce of attention he gives her (which is mostly negative and unhealthy), any affection he may show (which is little), and she lives in denial trying to convince herself that they are happy and have a good life. He disrespects her and is mentally abusive to her! At first, I tried to tell her that and he turned on me and put a wedge between my sister and me. Anyway, I think there are many, many people in the world who have this unique ability to love so "completely". Perhaps it was my mother's influence growing up hearing her "preach" her ideas and feelings about relationships, but I am the type of person that is very "proud" and that is not always good in a MR. If it had been my H who had had an EA instead of me.........the M would have never stood a second chance b/c I would have been out of here and never looked back. If he had ever said one.......just one of the rotten things that your XH said to you.....that would have been the end! That is not to mean that my way is the "right" way and yours in the wrong way. We are simply different in how we feel in R's and how we respond and deal with our personal issues. My sister told me once when trying to get out of another bad R, that if I had not been with her when her XH came after her, she would never have had the guts to tell him "no". That blew me away! She lived in so much fear of everybody who raised their voice or looked at her wrong. Her self esteem was never as high as a bug. I don't know why b/c she was always beautiful and had a good personality. There was just something in her that made her think she had to do whatever another person (outside her family) told her to do. As if she did not have a brain of her own! Needless to say, she got into a lot of trouble when she was a kid. Her R's were not healthy b/c she was clingy and needy and the man was usually the type who mistreated her. IMHO, it was b/c she "allowed" it. I tried to tell her that if she stood up for herself he would treat her better. But she did not have the courage and finally begin to tell me that she was too weak and could not be like I was. It would upset me to see her mistreated, but I would "really" get upset b/c she would not take up for herself and would continue to live in a messy R.

I told all that about my sister to let you know how different people can be.......even from the same family. Don't compare yourself too harshly to some of us here b/c believe me.....their are tons of people who feel just like you do regarding their stitch. A woman who loves like you do cannot let go of it in a few months. She doesn't seem to be able to move ahead and put that R behind her as though it didn't exsist. For the record, I don't think anyone can feel that it never exsisted, but they may try to go on and live that way until they get stronger. Don't beat yourself up b/c you still love him, okay? Sure, it seems odd to me......but I'm not you and it's not my life. You are not my personality type, but that is not to say what you feel and how you think is not just as valuable as I think I am........

Time......time......and more time! Time heals a lot, sweetie, and you are going to have to wait for it. By nature, I am a fixer and I use to try to "fix" my sister. Didn't work. I tried to "fix" her broken R's. That didn't work, either. I finally decided that she was the adult and had to figure out her way of doing things and I had to realize that it would be totally different from the way I would handle it. If she choses to stay in a R that is mentally and emotionally abusive, then I don't know what to do b/c I have said so much to her about that......she is shutting "me" out instead of the abusive person. She cannot deal with him and with me, so she's forced to make a choice between us, I guess, and naturally she is going to choose him over me. I never asked her to do that, but I feel that is what she "thinks" she has to do b/c she can't make both of us happey with her.

This is me journaling a bit to let you look inside at some of my life and hope it may help to realize there is nothing wrong with "you" based on the fact you still love a man that continues to treat you badly. IMHO, I think you are in love with the man you married.......not the man he has become. That is the person you are truly grieving for. Maybe if you could somehow figure out how to separate the two "men" and know that this one is not the one you fell in love with and you will either be able to move ahead (in time & working) and learn to live with that grief, or you will cling to that love and wait to see if that man you M ever shows up again.

Have to go to work. Have a good day.

Sandi

Sandi you hit the nail on the head in your very last sentence to me. I am clinging to the man I once knew and I am praying he shows up again.
I think because I have no contact with my xh and I dont get to see the man he is now, I only remember, other than the converstaions we had, the man that left my home. I only remember the good times and all the nice things he did for me. I wish I could see how he is now face to face. I only hear from other people every now and then how he looks and how he acts.
I wonder, and would love to know, how he acts to our friends and if he is hisself or another person.
Sandi by remembering and talking about our past alot I think I am trying to decide if he was mentally abusive to me. If I have lived my whole marriage this way than I am gonna think this is normal...this is why I think it is important to let you and some others hear into that world of mine. I need to figure out if my marriage was normal or if I let my xh by with way too much. I MYSELF need to know if I was "like your sister". I need to try and figure out if my husband was this way all along and I didnt see it. Sandi, alot of people use to say to me that my xh was cold hearted and had to have things his way and that he never listened to anybody. THIS is EXACTLY what he said that I was, without the cold hearted part. Why do you think he thought this of me. I will tell you why I think he thought this of me because, unlike your sister, I have a mouth and I USE IT. I DO say what is on my mind and I DID tell him what I thought. I would argue the point with him. BUT my weakness was, when he threaten to leave, I FREAKED INSIDE...no I DID NOT want to be left alone again, SO this is what he held over my head. He knew this scared me and he used it to his advantage.
I have said before, this man sometimes would carry me food, help clean house, wash the dishes, clean the toilets and so forth. I would think and still do that I WILL NEVER find a man again to treat me this way. He did these nice things alot but when he didnt get enough sleep or when he was tired or stressed he was angry. He would cuss alot and in a very loud voice sometimes screaming. When we argured about something he would say I am done talking and that is it end of discussion. He KNEW EVERYTHING about anything, if he didnt he would make it up and make you believe it.
BUT most of all he lied alot.
I was talking to a family member and she asked me if my xh kept me away from them. I thought about this and I think he had so much influence on me that I would do anything he said.
He always talked about my friends, alwasy found something bad to say. He talked about my family and HIS family. We both have family members that are always in trouble.
It seems though that everybody was out to get us according to him. He sometimes would have good things to say but alot of the times he would tell me that I let people run over me.
Sandi, I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him. Just guessing at this. He just never seem to really like whomever my friend was. He would even talk about the way they kept house, just stupid stuff. When we would sit around and just talk alot of the time it would be negative something about somebody especially our friends. He had me agreeing with him, he had me convinced that nobody cared about us and we could trust nobody.
I never got to meet my father in law, but they say he was a big man and in charge always. He past away shortly before I met my xh. I dont know exactly how his father displined his children but I have heard he was rough. Maybe the cold heartedness came from there. My xh is always in protective mode it seems.
When his mother died, he grieved very little...he said life goes on. When my mother died he was so scared that I was going to go into this grieving process too long, even said so. That is just him. He says alot "Thats Life".
Sandi, I know no other way of living. I know that I let him go and do whatever he wanted. He said I could do the same, but I never did.
As far as protection goes, I know he would have fought anybody or anything that bothered us. I was his.
Sandi, I never tested him, he never had to worry about me leaving him and he knew that. A couple times I told him I was unhappy just to see his reaction and he was very concerned and worried.
Bottom line HE HAD TO BE IN CONTROL.

I know you didnt want me to go down the xh path, but Sandi I need to figure out if this was normal behavior or not. I need to figure out what my weakness is and why I let him influence me so much. I thought my h knew EVERYTHING and was so SMART. He had me conveniced of this. It even got to where he thought he was the better cook, housekeeper and so forth. Really I am telling the truth. Why I didnt put my foot down i dont know other than I felt like he worked hard and always provided for us and he deserved the best. I felt like we only had each other.
Sandi, is it my fault that I let him away with this stuff? Is it my fault he got bored or tired of the responsbility and left us? Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be? This new gf, from what I hear, does not let him by with anything. She told me once, that he would never talk to her in a bad manner, that he never had and never would. Maybe this is what I should of done. Maybe he likes being bossed around.
I have got to learn what I did wrong so I CAN make corrections in me.
I think personally, I let me push me around too much. I saw him do it with others and thought it was ok.
I will add more later got to go fo now, dinner is here i think.

Hugs,
Renee

Dear Renee, I'm so glad you told me all of that. I think under the circumstances thazt you do need to discuss how things were in the R. Especially since you are not able to go to a C. I'm not much of a counselor, but I have seen men just like you described your XH. I have also seen the women they lived with.

I know a man who was M for years. Raised a family and had several grandchildren. In fact, all of his children were grown when at last the M blew apart. It was one of the worst results of a MR......outide of great physical abuse.....that I have ever seen. Now, there may have been physical abuse and I just never knew about it, but I do know from what the W and the youngest D told me that he was very metally and verbally abusive. They attended the same church as I did and I could almost "look" at the W and suspect abuse. She would dress nice and she laughed and talked about him in a nice way, but it was always something in her eyes that made me wonder. His D could really cover up well, as did the rest of the kids & grandkids, but I saw glimpses of his anger and how he lost his tempter and how "sensitive" he was about things. He was very dominating and yet the time I crossed ways with him and held my own......he did not know how to deal with it. In fact.....he "couldn't" deal with it and probably nearly blew a gasket! He did not intimdate me and I stood my ground, which he was not use to any female standing up to him! I later heard that he did crazy things, like drive by our house and say stupid immature things to his W & D. After the break-up, I was filled in with plenty by the W & D and everything I ever suspected about him was true. He was just as you have described your XH. And....guess what? After being such a bully to his W and own kids & grandkids, he marries this woman from red-headed German woman (and you know the reputation red-headed Germans have for tempers...lol) and I hear that she makes him walk the line! It is so funny, I want to lie in the floor, kick up my heels and roll over laughing! He was awful to his family and so many things he never allowed his W do to......this woman does! In fact, she does anything she wants and he is like a kitten. I think he met his match and knows he best keep his mouth closed!

To answer you question, Renee, yes I do think he was abusive. He was verbally abusive and he was mentally abusive....for sure. If my ever cussed me one time.....or even had a fit and cussed somebody in my presence, I am certain I would leave him. Of course, that is not the type man he is and I did not grow up in that atmosphere, so it is not my intentions of putting up with it. I was told once that people treat us like we "teach" them to. I also heard that said a little differently. People treat us the way we "allow" them to treat us. At the time, I was having a terrible time with a co-worker and so that was not very comforting to hear. What is so hard is once you allow them to get that intimidation in on you, then it is almost impossible to break. I said almost, b/c I think I come very close to allowing that to happen at work, but not quite. I think in your case, as well as some other people I've know......it happened so subtlety in some cases that people became kind of "use" to it before they realize just how awful it had become. In other cases, (maybe like yours) the W did not know a "better" way and thought she was "happy" when the truth was that she was not being treated well. There are a few that are what I called "brainwashed". Now, I told you about my sister, but I haven't told you about my daughter. She got D from her first H, (and I think on a "rebound"), started a R with a man who was very abusive. He was mentally, verbally, and finally physically abusive to her. The sad thing is that she had never been treated like that in her life! We gave her a good, strong and loving home. But this man had her so brainwashed into believing every word he told her and would not believe her own parents. He had her thinking he was next to God, or something. I just could not believe now he was able to twist her mind around and think totally like a different person from who she was. It got very bad and she ended up in the hospital before she got away from him for good. I have never told anyone on the board about this, but I wanted you to know that I have seen it up close and personal.....without being there in it myself.

I have to leave for a while, but I will finish later.

Sandi

I'm back. I know that was a long post and this one will be also, but that is how "I" have to do it to get things covered....so hope you can hang with me here.

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I only remember the good times and all the nice things he did for me.

I see this compared to when a loved one dies. It seems no matter how rotten they may have been in life, we still only remember the good times b/c we are "grieving" the loss. I think it is part of our human make-up. In some ways you are still "blinded" b/c of your love (be it healthy or not) for the man you knew in the beginning. I think you are vry wise to be examining yourself, even though it is painful....I think it is necessary to pick this apart so you can figure out the truth and be able to heal and to grow from the experience. But, let me throw this in so you won't think that you are in any way adnormal, okay? That is why I shared my personal closeness and told you about my sister (which I barely touched on that subject and will get back) and about my daughter's experience. In some cases we can look at their background and snd think that is "why" they fell for a guy that ended up abusing them and that they couldn't seem to see the stitch for what it truly was.....even though others may have tried to tell them. That one is easy. It is when the woman comes from a close, strong nit, loving family who was raised with strong moral and Christian values that go into a R that the entire family can "see" the man is not what she needs.........that is what is puzzling for me. I think we could look at each case or person as "individual" b/c they are separate and each life is unique simply b/c it is "their" life. I'm sure a professional could "lump" you with some big fancy name and say that is the reason you fell for this man even b/c he was a bully, over-bearing, obnoxious, selfish, loud , etc. But this is "your" life and it's very personal so I would think you want personal answers.

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I wonder, and would love to know, how he acts to our friends and if he is hisself or another person.

Based on the men I have known who come to mind when I read about your XH, I am sure the he puts on a "front" and talks loud and is blusterous in everything he says and does b/c he is trying very hard to convince people around him that he is doing just great......couldn't be better.......glad you left....was the best thing that ever happen.....yada, yada, yada. You see, a man like him is having to cover up "reality" so much that it takes all of his time and energy trying to make people think he is this big tough guy who is just fine and dares anyone to get into his way......when the truth is he is scared to death to face his own demons and certainly isn't about to let anybody else see them. He would go down fighting before he allowed himself to look deep inside at "why" he is the way he is. He would almost do anything before he could do that, b/c he has been so many years in this "state" or "conditions" or frame of mind or .....I don't know what word to use for it. He started out trying to be somebody who he really wasn't b/c he had been either hurt, mistreated, exposed to bad parenting, or other early childhood experiences that left him feeling that he was alone and nobody would love him if they could see him weak and vulnerable. He felt he had to get his bluff in on others or they would always take advantage of him. The way you described his father makes me believe that his dad was a lot like him and made him feel worthless when he was a boy. The irony is that so many times, the son turns out to be just like that angry, over-bearing father he knew when he was growing up. I would bet his dad treated your MIL the same way your XH treated you b/c most learn from their role models and look who your XH had for a role model! Now I can't say that it is always one of the parent's fault when a man grows up to be like your XH. I don't know that to be a fact each time.........again I am using personal knowledge of what I say. It may have been something else, but I feel very strongly that it was something from his early years that affected the personality he would take on and how he would treat those around him. He may even treat people different based on their connection or R with him. He may show a degree of respect to a few chosen. But, I bet the majority of people....he constantly finds fault with them and blames life's unfairness and is critical about every situation and every person he comes in contact with.

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I need to figure out if my marriage was normal or if I let my xh by with way too much.

I think it depends on what you consider to be "normal". I think you are probably refering to what we see as being the typical all American marriage and family. I don't know if anybody has a family like the old classic shows on TV use to protray. That is not reality. But, I know what you are saying and I would feel the same way. Based on what you have stated, I think you were wanting to be loved and "belong" to somebody so badly that it would have been the perfect opportuntiy for a man like your XH to step in and take advantage of your vulnerability. By the time you met him, his personality traits were well ingrained and he was "set" pretty much in his ways, however, as things transpired over time.....it took its toll and he reacted in a negitive way....always blaming some other person or the system or whatever for his "bad luck". He never gets a break, right? He sees himself as a person down on his luck that "society" and "the system" is out to get, and therefore he has to bite them in the butt first. His pride was hurt a great deal when things started going downhill. He finds his self respect or esteem in his job and the status that the position brought to him. When in a position of authority, it makes him feel stronger and more in control. "Control" is vital to him. He may have felt very vulnerable when he was young and could not "control" his environment or whatever he had to endure and as a result he decided (maybe unconsciously) to always be in control of those who were under his authority. He saw you as being under his authority b/c he was the H and you were the
"weaker vessel" b/c you were his "wife". That made you his properity and he felt he could show the world what a "real man" he was by the way he controlled you. The fact that you had enough spunk to express your feelings is a plus for you but I'm sure it caused much anger in him b/c he did not know how to deal with it in an intellegent way. All he felt was a rage and stress when things went against "him" or his authority. That is why I feel that somebody (like his dad) who was an authority figure in his life was too hard on him. He must have felt defensive and all he knew was to try to build some type of "protective" shell and pretend to be this awful person until he actually became an awful person. If we start out shaping our personalities in all the bad ways and allowing negative emotions to be in control of us, then in time it does take over and we have truly become that individual. That is JMHO and others may certainly disagree. That is not to say that a person CANNOT CHANGE IF THEY WANT TO BADLY ENOUGH! Just as the man who married the red-headed German woman who makes him walk the line.......he is like a totally different person now. I don't know enough of the details about their MR to understand why it took this srong no-nonsense woman to show him he was not going to walk all over her like he did his first wife......but it did the trick! And the sad thing is that his first wife was/is a very sweet lady. But you see......she "allowed" him to treat her this way until he was totally out of control and she could not take his abuse any longer. She was living in hell and had to get out of it in order to save her own idenity as a human beging. Her self esteem was so low that the only way she had to go was "up".

The same thing could be said about my sister and the relationships she has had with men all through the time she started dating through more than one marriage (I might add). When I think back on those steady boyfriends she had and the men she was with.......every single one of them treated her like cr@p. Now why do you think that was? Why on earth would a person who was pretty and had a little bit of sense (not much) but a little, would let these boys and men treat her so disrespectfully? Oh, sure when she first met them, they were nice and won her over....but in a short time, she would be experiencing the same old stuff. It was like she never learned from her mistakes. I want you to learn from your experience, Renee.

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I MYSELF need to know if I was "like your sister". I need to try and figure out if my husband was this way all along and I didnt see it.

In the beginning, he probably wasn't to the degree he became. Give yourself a bit of credit for believing you would not have married a total monster. I don't think he is a "monster" now. I think he has some type of problem that goes very deep and as a result he became what he was with you in the MR. If he truly had changed b/c of this new GF and b/c he "knows" he can't treat her like he did you, then it proves he can control his ways. Doesn't make you feel better knowing he took his bad feelings out on you.....and you were there to love him and support him. But look at "him" as being the bad guy here.....not you. You wanted to be loved. You "thought" you had a normal MR. Again, we all have our own ideas of what "normal" is. My sister has never been treated any other way by any man she was intimate with, so in a weird sense......she thinks it is normal....for "her" life. She knows that our mother, me, our GM and none of the other females in our family (except for that one R my daughter had) has ever allowed any man to mistreat them. The women in our family have what I think is a normal self-respect and some may have a need for stronger self esteem, but the majority of people feel that way and it doesn't mean you accept an abusive R just b/c your self esteem is low.

Speaking of self esteem, I believe that men who are like your XH have very low self esteem. You would think that a woman who looks up to them and shows open adoration for them would over come any low self esteem......but my sister almost gets sickening with her laying all this "male ego food" at my BIL's feet and he just treats her worse. So, go figure. It seems to almost be a law of life. If you bow down to people....or they "think" that is what you are doing.....it seems to be the "animal" in them to be disrespectful. Doesn't say much for mankind, does it? Women like my sister see it as showing "love" and hopes that her H will give her a little in return. It never seems to work that way. The sad thing is she tried for years and years to make her family think that it was all different when they were alone. Yeah, right! If a man shows disrespect for his wife in public....you can bet your rear end that he doesn't respect her in private, either. Perhaps some women do not understand the difference in love and respect. Maybe they were trying so hard to receive "love" that it totally turned the H off and he begin to treat her sloppy as a result. We could speculate for hours and might not hit the target of your stitch......but as you said, you need to try. Maybe in the conversation, you will see something that opens the picture and you will know how things transpired and led to the end of the M. I believe you certainly need closure in order to continue to have any kind of happiness in life. I find that it help to be able to understand why things happened. However, in some matters, Renee, we may never understand and when that happens, we can only "accept" what happened. We don't have to agree or like it, but we need to accept it and move forward. That was why I was trying in the beginning to get you to stop focusing so much on your past and the M with your XH, but now I see where you really need to try to sort this out. I hope it will be a tool for healing.

Well, I am not sure I know how to express in words how I see it in my mind. In his own personal issues, he became a over-bearing, loud, obnoxious, and very selfish man who wanted complete control over his life. Whenever he felt he was not in control of you......when you would talk back or try to stand up for yourself.....that is when he was fighting the only way he knew how and that was to blame you for what he was really was! It is so ironic, isn't it? Again, please do not take what he said about you as being the truth! He simply was losing the tight control and didn't know how to keep you in his power, so like a immature child, he spouts off. Bullies do that too, you know.

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BUT my weakness was, when he threaten to leave, I FREAKED INSIDE...

That was his trump card. His last resort was to threaten to leave. I think by that time, he was probably too far gone in his own personal problems. I doubt that you could have done anything. In fact, if you had left him, it may have shook him up a bit, but don't know that it would have had lasting effects b/c the two of you would have re-entered the same MR and he would only pick up where he left off. It took an entirely different woman with a different way to change things. That is not to say you are less than she is. It is just "different" in his eyes. Maybe he learned something very emotionally deep in his experience with you but he would not admit that to ANYONE!! He still has those deep seated issues about how he represents himself to his friends and associates. He must continue to be this big strong MALE.

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no I DID NOT want to be left alone again

This part is what breaks my heart! I don't know if you said that intentionally or not, but it clearly goes back to you feeling left alone and forsaken as a child. But, you do NOT have to depend on a man to have you as "his" wife or to even love you. Yes, we all hope to have somebody in our life that loves us.....I don't mean that. But as little girls, I think a lot of us grew up with that storybook living happily ever after idea that if only we found our "Prince" then we would be loved forever and always be taken care of. How many times does it happen in real life like that? I'm thinking never. (Unless you watch the Housewives from New Jersey on TV.....LOL.)

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SO this is what he held over my head. He knew this scared me and he used it to his advantage.

So, you are beginning to see it for how it really was......or have you always known in your heart....but couldn't face it?

You told of the different ways your XH helped you around the house, etc. That is great b/c it means he has some good qualities. I suppose the guy that my D had that abusive R with was/is the only man I knew who I could not find one decent thing good about him. He was just plain mean and hateful and nobody I know ever liked him. My D will tell you that he absolutely brainwashed her and took advantage of her vulnerability b/c she was coming out of a divorce. She looks back and wonders who that girl was! It was not her usual self. In some ways, I think she was in rebellion about some issues that I won't get into. My sister started out in rebellion in high school and dated boys that our parents probably would never have "approved" of if they had known the truth about them. So, in her years of rebellion, she set forth a "pattern" of what turned out to be very, very bad choices of men to become involved with. I doubt she even realizes that fact. She has had to turn a deaf ear to us and even to herself in order to continue to stay in her stitch. She tried to leave once and he made her feel forced to go back. So, see, he still has that control over her.

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When we argured about something he would say I am done talking and that is it end of discussion. He KNEW EVERYTHING about anything, if he didnt he would make it up and make you believe it.

Very typical of his personality type.

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BUT most of all he lied alot.

Oh yes, I know about that part also. Perhaps it is a cover up of their own low self esteem........but for whatever the reason.....it is wrong and certainly not healthy for them, not to mention the people around them.

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I was talking to a family member and she asked me if my xh kept me away from them. I thought about this and I think he had so much influence on me that I would do anything he said.

The same is true with my BIL. In fact, he even turned their children against our mother and me. Why would anybody do that? He would convince them that his mother (who lived across the country and never contacted them) was the better GM and I was not a good aunt who loved them. It absolutely broke my heart but I could not change what he distroyed. I tried for a long time, but he eventually influenced them so much that they never come around my house or see me except at holiday meetings. All they talk about is "their daddy" which would be okay if they were small children, but we are talking are almost grown. He is nothing but a bag of hot air and he has these kids convinced he is some kind of hero........yeah, right....a cartoon hero! If a rational person sits back and looks at him, they know instantly he is a joke. He is all talk and bluff! Well, he got his bluff in on his family in the early years, and now they have the price to pay for it.

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Sandi, I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him.

I can't copy and paste all the things you said that fall into line of this same senerio type of personality. However, everything you describe is totally on target with my BIL. Isn't that something? Isn't it something--that you came here and we found each other? But rest assured that you are not the only woman, by a long shot, that goes through this! I just happen to be one that is talking to you about this problem.

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Sandi, I know no other way of living. I know that I let him go and do whatever he wanted.

Oh sweetheart, I understand that. What happened in the past cannot be changed but you can learn from that and you can decide to figure out how to live a better future. I promise that you can do this if you want to badly enough.

I really do not want to stop here, but this post is so long, I guess I better and then come back later.

I'll pick back up.

Sandi

Sandi thank you for responding to me.
I have to say that after all that I said about my xh, for some reason I can not get angry at him or stay angry at him anyway.
I feel sorry for him. I wish I could help him. I saw at times the inner child in him.
Sometimes he would come up behind me and hug me and act all wishy washy...for no reason.
THIS is the man I miss.
Then there have been times that he could have knocked me out if I had been a man. He said several times that I make him madder than anybody he ever knew.
He said several times, after he left, that he wanted a simple life.
Sandi, my son and I put xh on a pedistol. We thought he was OUR hero. We thought he knew everything and my son still does.
It was just us 3 against the world. That is how we felt. Now he has left us to fend for ourselves and we are crushed. Thats how we see it.
I am quickly learning I can take care of myself and my family without him. Not my choice but he wants it that way.
Sandi, I know this new girl is in control of him, but will it last? Because when I met my xh he pampered me to no end. He even promised my aunt, whom I lived with, things he would do for her.
Still to this day has not lived up to his promise.
I contolled him bigtime. I threatened to leave him once and he freaked, (this was before we married). He got down on his kness and begged, I mean BEGGED and cried for me not to leave him.
I can see him doing this with her. It's like he is that young man I met years ago. I even told me, whatever the new gf wanted she was going to get. He has even discussed having kids with her, said he would like to have twin girls.
Sanid, my xh never wanted anymore kids...this is not HIM. From what I hear this is part of the MLC. I dont know though.

***I have to end for now, I will pick up in a bit.***

Renee

Good Morning,

I hope I don't appear to be a hog by taking up so much of your thread, but you can always start a new one.....

Your story is close to my heart and that is why I wanted to try to say something that might help you. I tried for years to reach my sister, but her H worked to pull her and their children away from the family and any friends she tried to make. The kids have nobody in their life but him. For one thing, I have never heard or seen a male friend with BIL. As you said, it was him (and now his family) against the world. He brainwashed my sister into thinking I was trying to interfer into their lives and not to listen to anything our mother or I had to say. It was very difficult for me to stand by and watch her abused in that way.....but I finally gave up and decided if she would not listen and chose that life over what she could have.....then I was powerless to help her. However, if I ever see any signs of physical abuse, I will step in b/c that is my baby sister and I can't sit by and watch that happen. I do know the mental and verbal abuse goes on all the time, but that is something only she can stop.

One thing that always bothered me was how she would refer back to her other marriages and say enough that I knew she thought this was her last chance b/c in her mind.....nobody gets D three times. Yes, she this is her third M and every man she M was just alilke!! It was weird. They all were built up similar in size, and they all were a bag of hot air, and they all treated her like dog poop. The first one was physically abusive but they lived off away from us and she didn't have children then and ran off during the middle of the night to come home. That was after she had supposedly left him for good about a year before due to the abuse and would you believe he talked her into going back to him? It amazed me the power the man had over her. When she left my house to go back to him, I was crying and when she hugged me good-bye she told me everything would be okay and I told her right in front of him that, "No, the next time...he will kill you". He didn't open his mouth to me, b/c he was a coward, but I'm sure he had plenty to say when he got her alone. The second H abused her sexually, mentally and abusively and it would take a book to tell all the horrible things he put her through. It would sound like fiction, but it really happened. I think in order to "live" with all that happened, she has someway put it out of her mind and acts like she has forgotten it. We never talk about it with her, but it has always amazed my family how she M three men who were all alike. I only bring all that up in case you happen to see anything in that that rings a bell with you. And.....to continue to let you know that I have been close to the problem similar to yours.

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I would think and still do that I WILL NEVER find a man again to treat me this way. He did these nice things alot but when he didnt get enough sleep or when he was tired or stressed he was angry

But don't you see?......you felt and still feel that you do not deserve anyone to treat you with kindness! YOU DO DESERVE KINDNESS FROM THE MAN YOU ARE MARRIED TO!! That is the least a H can show to the W he is with is to show kindness. Even with people we aren't M to, we show kindness......right? So, I hope that you will add to your "list" that you DO deserve to be treated with dignity, respect, and kindness. Every individual wants to be shown dignity. I have learned that by working with the public at various jobs down through the years. But in a M.....both partners want to be treated with those things. Of course they want love and sex (which is the physical expression of love). BTW, did the two of you have a good sex life? If the only time a man shows any signs of "love" is when he wants sex?........something is very wrong. I have never....since the day they got M and he kissed her at the alter.....seen my BIL put his arms around my sister or kiss her or even sit next to her. Now, she knows not to try to show him any affection in front of people, and in their bedroom....she is so starved for his kindness that she clings to him for sexual attention. As soon as he is "relieved" then he turns over and that is all the "love" she gets until the next time. I just know she feels like some object he uses to release his sexual tensions....and then he's through with her. She had done all the "positive" things to try to make him happy......except standing up for herself and having a backbone.

As I said before, you can find at least one good quality. My BIL never misses a day on the job. Maybe that is where he feels important. But that is the good thing I can say about him. However, it is my sister who is killing herself working to bring in the money she feels the family needs to live on. My BIL buys his "toys" to hunt, fish, golf, or whatever his latest sport may be. She feels the entire financial burden on her shoulders and he acts like he could care less.

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I think when I got close to a friend, he got scared that maybe they would influence me so much, i would trun on him. Just guessing at this. He just never seem to really like whomever my friend was. He would even talk about the way they kept house, just stupid stuff. When we would sit around and just talk alot of the time it would be negative something about somebody especially our friends. He had me agreeing with him, he had me convinced that nobody cared about us and we could trust nobody.

Yes, my BIL was/is that way, too. In fact, they have a son who is close to my GS's age (b/c I started my family young and baby sister started very late, so that's why the close years in her son and my oldest grandson). Anyway, my GS tried to have a close friendship with their son and my BIL was so jealous that he didn't give up until he split them apart. He even stooped to telling lies on my GS. He was worse than a child. I never seen any grown man act like he did, but then his son is the only friend he has and he is not about to let another person come along and take "his" place with his only friend. It is another way he has of controlling his family.

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My xh is always in protective mode it seems.
When his mother died, he grieved very little...he said life goes on. When my mother died he was so scared that I was going to go into this grieving process too long, even said so. That is just him. He says alot "Thats Life".

I have known other men who came from either too unreasonably strict parents or either from such a large family that he never got the one on one attention he needed. Each one had characteristics like you described. They had it rough as a kid and they each had (usually a father) who had the attitude that "that's life, get over it" and showed no sympathy for anyone. I have never seen my BIL show any signs of emotion other than a bad temper and a cold, cold heart. My sister is just the opposite and is very tender hearted and he gets so ugly with her when she breaks downs and cries. These type of men make their family feel that they are weak (especially a son) and need to toughen up and don't allow yourself to "care" about anybody else. I am suprised your XH grieved at all when your mother passed away. She must have touched him more than he meant for her to. We've had close members of our family to die and they were exceptionally kind people, but my BIL acted so cold and showed no tenderness for my sister who was grieving.

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Sandi, is it my fault that I let him away with this stuff? Is it my fault he got bored or tired of the responsbility and left us? Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be?

I really answered this in my last post, but you added it up when you said you knew no other life. I doubt that you had the tools to know how to deal with him. You probably did not know how he was going to treat you after M and it probably began slowly and increased as time went by. My BIL did not treat my sister before M like he does now. I don't think he was too bad at the very beginning and his attitude toward our family wasn't as bad. I'm not sure if he kept it under wraps and it slowly came out of hidding or if something triggered that nature in him. I thought that he saw a person in my sister that he could run over and when he got a job he was very unhappy with, that is when he started coming home and really taking it out on her. I felt that she was so afraid from pasts MR's of his bad attitude and temper that she cowed down in his presence and acted like a whipped pup. That is all it takes for a bully! He will make your life miserable after he discovers you will take what he dishes out.

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Why I didnt put my foot down i dont know other than I felt like he worked hard and always provided for us and he deserved the best.

Notice that you said he deseved the best! That is how all W's should feel toward their H's. However, to be honest, Renee, I don't think you thought YOU deserved the best and that is why you settled for his bad treatment of you. You thought since he worked hard to provide for his family, you should be happy he did even that much b/c you felt unworthy of anything more! Yes, you stood your ground at times and it frustrated and angered him b/c of the lack of control he felt, but this feeling of unworthiness all goes back to your growing up years. You never were able to over-come that and it hung on all these years. If you were to go to the county library and check out books on self-improvement and self-esteem, etc., I think it would help you a lot. I even found tons of free stuff on the Internet about women's self esteem. It was good and you would hopefully start to grow by emotionally feeding off that information. You need it badly!

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Could I have not prevented this from the way I let him be?

I think this is what is really eating at you now. B/c this new GF seems to have made an entirely new man out of your XH.....right? I know, I would wonder the same thing as you are doing and it hurts to see another woman step into "our" place and everything seems to be what "you" had wanted and never got. Am I pretty close about that?

Maybe if you had handled things differently from the very beginning......but who knows? Besides, it has happened and you could beat yourself up every day and it would not change the past. However, whether you have another R with a different man or if your XH leaves this new GF and wants to pick back up with you........know that you will be different and that no man will ever disrespect you again! You have learned from your past mistakes.......and as bad as you might want to "not" admit it.......you could learn from what this new GF is doing to make things work. However, he hasn't M her yet and time will tell the story. If he should want to get back together with you, he needs to know that it will NOT be the same R you had before. That is another reason for you to try to heal and grow and start working to improve your own image of Renee in YOUR mind. If you become the woman you like and respect, then you won't allow another man or woman to treat you less. People are just able to "sense" this about another person and they act accordingly.

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Maybe he likes being bossed around

I don't know that it is so much of that as the fact he knew from the beginning he could not boss "her" around. That caused him to respond in a positive way. She probably does not put up with him coming home in a bad mood or talking about other people the way he did with you. But, you see, they are not M and he knows that she could walk out on him without a minute's notice. I have heard people say that that is one advantage of not being M in a R and it makes the man treat the woman better. Isn't that sad? Maybe there is a lot of truth to that statement b/c he knows not to take her for granted. He took you for granted, big time. He knew you would be there just as long as HE DID NOT LEAVE YOU! I think you unconciously must have had this "neediness" about you he sensed and maybe it turned him off. Even if you yelled or whatever and wanted you way about something......the clinginess in your emotions over-powered the yelling matches.

You said you saw your XH push others around and thought it was okay. Why do you think that was? Was it b/c of the brainwashing technique he had used on you to believe whatever he did was fine? When you saw someone other than your XH run over people, how did it make you feel?

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I have to say that after all that I said about my xh, for some reason I can not get angry at him or stay angry at him anyway.
I feel sorry for him. I wish I could help him. I saw at times the inner child in him.
Sometimes he would come up behind me and hug me and act all wishy washy...for no reason.
THIS is the man I miss.

Yes, you are still grieving over that loss and you will continue to do that until you can find closure with it. Unlike a death, you are trying to find out the cause of what went wrong. Well, maybe that would be the same if there had been a tragic car wreck and he died, you would want to know what happened, right?

Maybe feeling sorry for him is better than the other emotions you COULD be experiencing. You are able to see his weakness and that is good b/c his "hero" image has fallen and now you see him as he truly is.

The actions he displayed that made you feel that you could almost see his inner child was a time he had a need to feel secure (IMHO) and as if he was looking to you as a mother figure. We W's don't like to think our H's look to us as their mother, do we? However, try to see how you probably was emotionally looking to him to replace the father that left you when you were small. Have you ever thought about that? Both of you had some serious issues growing up and it was kind of like watching a trainwreck in progress after the two of you M.

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Then there have been times that he could have knocked me out if I had been a man. He said several times that I make him madder than anybody he ever knew.
He said several times, after he left, that he wanted a simple life.

It was his sense of not being in control that made him so angry. I think the reason he is doing as well as it appears he is in the new R with GF is b/c he was tired of the fighting and the frustration in the M with you, but he did not know "how" to repair it. To him, the only way to find that "simple life" was to start fresh with a new woman. You see, it does seem easier to end the old R and start with somebody new. I was in that frame of mind when I was going through my "crises" at the time I came here. I saw no hope for my MR and wanted out. I was sick to death of it and had tried everything I knew to make it better. So, when OM came along.....that seem to be the answer. Your XH sees this GF as a "different life" for him........and he is trying to be different, but as I said.....we will see b/c those traits he has are inbedded very deep. So, if he losses it and go off on her....that may be the end of "their" storybook fairytale.

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Sandi, my son and I put xh on a pedistol. We thought he was OUR hero. We thought he knew everything and my son still does.

Exactly what I see in my sister's family.

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I am quickly learning I can take care of myself and my family without him.

That is the most important first step to take! When you discover that you can live without him, then you will be able to reach these other levels. It takes time, but you are well on your way considering it has been this short period.

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I contolled him bigtime. I threatened to leave him once and he freaked, (this was before we married). He got down on his kness and begged, I mean BEGGED and cried for me not to leave him.

Hummmm........well, he apparently is in one mode before M and then enters another mode "after" the weeding vows and feels the ball & chain effect. It goes back to how he is treating the GF b/c they are not legally M. It also goes back to how "you" were before you M him. But once the wedding rings were on the fingers, then you started putting up with more and more of his cr@p as he gradually added it up. As time went by, you must have felt more fear of the idea of him ever leaving you. We women do that, you know. Maybe it goes back to how we grew up as little girls and thinking we had to have a man take care of us. When we start to get a little older, then we think we are losing some of those looks, etc., that inticed men in the first place and how will we ever get anybody else. In your case......it stems back to the experience of your father leaving you. You never healed over that, Renee. That is obvious and I wished there was somebody who could help you. I think your Pastor or Priest could help you in that area. He would probably be even morewilling to help and spend time in that area b/c there are so MANY couples having troubled M's today that I think men in Church leadership are so bogged down with people's M's that it gets "them" down to the point they dread to see the next one mention a troubled M. That is JMHO (again). If you feel you can talk to him about "anything" then don't hold back b/c of anything I have said. The reason I said that is b/c of how I will come to the board at times and I basically read the same senerio over and over. Sometimes, I just can't deal and have to turn away from the board that night or stay away for a couple of days. It's not that I don't "care" but it gets me to the place I feel I am saying the same thing to people and the idea of starting over from scratch with a newcomer......well, you understand (I hope). Truthfully? That is why I was "rushing" you to hurry and let's get moving on and stop talking about your past and your XH. I did not realize how badly I was handling your personal stitch until you pointed out how you had not had enough time since the D. Then I realized I needed to slow down.

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I can see him doing this with her. It's like he is that young man I met years ago. He even told me, whatever the new gf wanted she was going to get.

That goes back to him wanting to start "over" in a new R. He is back to trying to be that young man again. It is easier for him to do that with the GF b/c she has not lived with him all those years and seen all his bad side or as often as you did. That is why I said that only time will tell if they stick together or not.

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He has even discussed having kids with her, said he would like to have twin girls.

Now this one statement...alone....sounds like a man in MLC!! How silly and immature does that sound to you? I wouldn't think so much about him saying he would like to have children with her but to talk as if he is "picking" them out of a window? That is pure childishness.

The fact that he told you how he plans to spoil the GF shows that he is selfish and mean spirited and wants to hurt you. He knew exactly how bad that would pierce your heart. He knows how bad he has hurt you. He knew how you were hurt as a child. HE KNOWS ALL OF THIS....and yet he chose to do it. He will continue to stab you will daggers every chance he gets until he sees it does not effect you at all. That is why you must work hard not to wear your heart on your sleeve where your feelings are so easily seen. Pretend you have high regard for yourself until you can actually "feel" it.

He may very well be in MLC b/c he is showing a lot of signs. What he is doing now is trying to recapture his youth. I think they call it "replay" or something like that. He is trying to redo his M with a new person b/c he screwed up his first M so badly.....so throw the old out and bring in the new! Add these immature statemens he has made and this behavior he's displaying......it all adds up to a man in MLC. The sad thing is that it may take years before he comes see reality and then he may be in another M...srewing it up. That is why you can't afford to "wait" around on him, Renee. There is no telling what may happen within the next few years. He could have several more GF's by then. Whenever he decides he's not happy with the one he had, he'll throw her out and find a new one b/c he wants a woman to "make" him happy......and it just does not work like that. We have to make ourselves happy and it won't happen if we don't even like who we are.

That is why I hope you can emotionally drop the rope that ties you to him and move on with a life. You don't have to stop loving him, but you need to break this emotional bondage. Your son will always be the tie that binds you to him, but you can still be in control of that. We'll talk about that another time.

I know my posts have be extremely long and I hope I did not wear you out trying to read them. I would not spend this much time in writing if I did not care about your life. So, please take that as a compliment b/c I meant for it to be. You ARE worthy of good things, Renee. You DESERVE to be happy in life. Please start today by talking to yourself and telling yourself these messages. It may seem like a crazy thing to do, but it matters what kind of "tape" is being re-played over and over in our minds as to how we will feel. If all we have playing in our minds is like a negative recording we're listening to....guess how we will feel and how we will act? So, start telling yourself that you are a good person and you are worthy and deserve good things.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi

Sandi, I dont have much time to type. I stayed up ALL NIGHT talking and playing video games (lol) with a good friend of mine.
I am just a BIG kid.lol
I have to go to work today too. I am going to be killed!
Anyway I read your post and I will post tonight if I dont fall over after work.

Have a GREAT DAY! (mom)

Renee

Update...
Well tonight after leaving work it happened.
I finally came face to face, well almost, (car to car at least), with my xh and his new gf. I was pulling into a street and they were pulling out,
My xh, (from the passanger seat), rolled down his window and almost broke his neck looking back at me.
I am not kidding, he stuck his head half way out the window to look back at me.
I cant believe he did this in front of his gf. I bet he paid for that.
Anyway this was the first time in 3 months or so that I have seen him.
Why do you think he had this reaction? Surprised me.
I did have a woman in the passenger seat. So maybe he was being nosey. BUT in front of gf????

Renee

Hummmmm.......never know what may be going through their minds, but try not to place too much emphasis on what he did. Do you think he knew the lady who was riding in the car with you? Maybe he was trying to see who she was. I would think he was being more nosey than anything else, but the fact you have not seen him in that length of time is very good b/c the longer he goes without actually seeing you.....the more interesting it may become when he does lay eyes on you. So, how did you react? Did you wave or anything? I hope you looked really so great it hurt his eyes! (lol)

No Sandi I did not wave or anything. As I pulled in I looked at the vehicle in passing. She was driving but the windows were tinted so dark you couldnt even see her. I didnt see him until I was passed them and just kinda glanced back. Thats when my passenger said, did you see that he stuck his head half out of the window. She also said he had a mean look. So who knows.
The only thing that bothers me is what if he was sticking his head out to be like bad or something. You know kinda like "yea you better go on". She could of told him I looked at her the wrong way in passing, who knows. I didnt though I couldnt see her AND I really didnt know it was them until I passed and saw the licensed plate. See it wasnt that I just passed them, after I turned into the road they were pulling out from, I had to turn behind them onto another road (hope I didnt confuse you), so I was at an angle when I glanced back after turning.
I would not even think twice about it if he hadnt stuck his head out. Now I am worried that his gf made have told him I "looked" at her the wrong way. And that matters because I dont need him running to the court house to get a protection order AGAIN. They gave him one last time because he complained I called too much so who knows, they may give him one again.
I may be thinking too much into it. It may be just him being nosey. She could tell him anything though and make him believe it I'm afraid.
I wish so much I could just pass, wave and go on, be done with it. I hate that I have to dodge them, and I feel like I do.
Sandi, would you have waved? What sould I have done? What should I do if I pass them again or run into them and he sticks out his head in protection mode (so to speak)?

b/c the longer he goes without actually seeing you.....the more interesting it may become when he does lay eyes on you.

Have you seen or heard this happen? Interesting in what way you think?
Thank you again Sandi, (Mom)

Hugs,
Renee

Renee, I wouldn't think nor put one thing into what happened. If he was being nosey, what of it? Its not going to change a thing. Move forward and act as though he doesn't exist.

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Sandi, would you have waved? What sould I have done? What should I do if I pass them again or run into them and he sticks out his head in protection mode (so to speak)?

Not sure what you mean by sticking out his head in protection mode. Maybe it's one of those things where I had to be there and see it? I think the best way is to ignore him and although it is not your nature, you probably need to look the other way so he won't think you're "stalking him" or that you are even a bit interested in what he does.

If that had happen to me, I would have been talking and laughing with my passenger and acted as if he was the very last thing on my mind. No, I would not have waved....even if I had looked right at him. The point is to have your life so full with other people and other things going on until it doesn't "register" in your mind to thow your hand up and wave to him. Especially since the R is like it is presently. Someday, your confidence will be stronger and you can treat him like the stranger he's become, but at this point, don't even worry or think twice "if" you should have waved or not.

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b/c the longer he goes without actually seeing you.....the more interesting it may become when he does lay eyes on you.

What I am referring to here is the "dropping the rope" and moving on with your life. You must remember that this all takes time for him to get his head out of the fog and his focus off the OW long enough to see daylight! He's not going to realize anything for a long time b/c of the condition he is in. However, the longer he goes without seeing you, the much better it is. I say that b/c of more than one reason. First, it give "time" to do a bit of healing and for him go get over some of his anger issues he has with you. Although, if the OW is constantly feeding him a bunch of BS, then it will take him even longer than the norm. Secondly, after he's had some time for the anger to die down, then hopefully, he will begin to miss you. Again, not knowing this OW and how she opperates....it's hard to speculate about some things, so bear that in mind. Having "time" to do work in healing some anger problems and even some levels of the MLC, and having time to miss you....then when he "does" run into you for a second or maybe a few minutes......seeing you will hopefully bring back all the "right" emotions he should have for you in his heart and not the negative one.

Yes, this does happen or I would not tell you that. However, I keep stressing how it takes much, much "time" and even though it seems like an eternity to you, it has not been a drop in the bucket for him. If he reacted in a negative way by getting a glimpse of you in the car......then he is not ready to see you at all and not for a long time, yet.

It's not that I am trying to discourage you, sweetheart, but neither do I want you to be set up for disappointment, either. Remember, it takes some people as long as five years to pull out of MLC. He may marry this OW in that length of time. He could do any number of things. A lot depends on how much influence she has over him.

That is just another reason why you can't wait in the wings, holding your breath, hoping against hope that he will wake up tomorrow and come knocking on your door asking to forgive him and take him back. It won't be tomorrow. It may be three to five years from now, but who knows what kind of mess he may be in by then? You can't put your life in the deep freeze trying to wait to see what he does. Besides, if you are worried that he may get another court order against you........then I suggest you stay as far away from him as you can. You probably said, and I can't remember, but does your family live there or is there any reason why you could not move to a near by town? Not to suggest he run you out of town, but who needs that kind of treatment and a threat of another court order by just passing him in a car? Just a thought.

What all did you do over the weekend?

Talk to you later,
Sandi

Have you seen or heard this happen? Interesting in what way you think?
Thank you again Sandi, (Mom)

update...
I hope someone is on here because I am at the end of my rope and dont know what else to do. Here is what happened today.
Keep this in mind while reading. Anytime my son and I have an argument of any kind basically he calls his dad and complains how terrible I am. He wants his dad to take his sid.

Today I had an argument with my son. He doesnt work, he has slacked off on SOME of the stuff I ask him to do around the house. He basically sits in his room on the internet and races nascar ALL day or night and sleeps the rest. He talks to his dad alot everyday but doesnt spend time with him but every now and then. (I think his Dad likes it this way).
Anyway I told him I am done, the internet goes off. Keep in mine also that my son just turned 19.
Well I tried to unhook the internet modem and he basically got in front of me and blocked me and wouldnt let me do it. He kept saying he was sorry. I had made up my mind. He is stronger than me so there was kinda a pushing match at one point. AND at one point during the argument he drew back and ACTED like he was going to hit me. I stood my ground and let him have it verbally, I tried the calm thing, didnt work. He said he was sorry and he never would ever hit me, he tries to bluff. During all this taking place he was talking to his dad on Nextel 2-way (walkie talkie kinda for those who dont know).
NOW this is where it gets interesting. His dad told his son to "just get away from me" "that he NEVER would understand us people over here" "that NOT to put him (dad) in the middle".
Basically he stands behind son. My son of course is trying to make it seem like I am crazy, that his dad doesnt know what he goes through living in this house. (believe me when I say, he has it made, he doesnt do anything more than what I said, other than pick up the house every now and then...which is good...but in no way does he have it rough).
The point I am trying to get across and get advice on is...
First of all, NOW this just validates the reason why my xh left. I KNOW this is probably the main reason. Our son has been spoiled and it is BOTH our faults. BUT now that xh is out of the house he thinks he doesnt have to deal with it. Should he??? I think he should, even though son is 19, he is living with me and he is disrespectful to me. Doesnt cuss me, but talks to me loudly and awful. (and where would he get that. hmmmmm).
I have told son he is going to live with his DAD, no choice on the matter! Even if for a short time. Until son gets a job and gets out on his own, or if he works, he can stay here WHILE helping me out. BUT he has to have a job and help around the house. When I said this he got on the phone with dad and said tell her you are getting me a job, of course dad says yep. His dad has said this and said this, I dont believe nothing he says anymore. I made son let me have the phone and told xh that son disrespects me and puts his finger in my face and he needs to talk to son about it. What did xh tell me???? Well...he said "Give my son his phone back, I pay for that phone, DO NOT grab it out of his hand again"...in front of son he said this.
I am at the end of my rope, I dont know what to do.
How in the world can I stay away from xh and let me go through MLC or whatever he is doing, when everytime my son and I argue, he gets on the phone to his dad and complains about me. Like I said this is probably the main reason my xh left and when son does this, it just validates why he left.
If xh would just only say to out son to NOT disrespect me and back me up.
Xh told son "I dont know if you can live with me or not" and why would he let him, when he is running from me and son to begin with? XH doesnt want to have to deal with what I am dealing with.
I can NOT physically remove my son and I dont want to have to call the law to help remove him to xh's. I love son and just wish he would grow up. I know this is OUR fault, but I ALONE am now paying for it. XH is off in his own little world and doesnt want to be bothered.

Sandi, I dont have family much, but my aunt lives here in town.
My mom is deceased and my dad lives in Ohio.
My xh is NEVER going to be left alone to deal with his own problems because son keeps calling him when something is wrong.
My xh is ALWAYS going to think he made the best choice.
What in the world am i to do?
I cant make my xh work with me on this, I am on my own. BUT when I try to deal with it, son calls dad and here we go again.
When son does this, I try to make xh understand, but I am wasting my breath...or so I feel.
Advice please someone?

Renee

Sunshine, you are divorced and your son is an adult.

Kimmie I know my son is an adult and that I am divorced but my son still lives under my roof and he got very defensive today.
HE is the one that calls his dad and complains, so what am I suppose to do??? When son does this it only makes things worse between me and his dad.

Hi Sunshine

With your son, you said he slacked off on some of the stuff you asked him o do. Does that mean he did do some of it?

JCJ, yes he does do some of the stuff around the house, but this goes beyond his duties in the house. He needs to become a man and get a job and help me for one thing, another thing is the way he talks to me. He is very disrespectful to me.
When we argue he calls his dad, and his dad tells him to not put him in the middle and to get away from his mom.
His dad doesnt stand behind me as far as what I am trying to get son to do, that is the problem I have. NOT that I call his dad for help. Son calls him and that is when is dad makes things worse because he takes sons side.
What in the world am I suppose to do in a case like this.
IF his dad would stick together with me on some things we could straighten him out. If son lived on his own that is one thing, but he lives under my roof. I also ask his dad to let him come stay with him and he said NO.

Kimmie I really dont know how you took what I wrote. Just because we are divorced doesnt mean my son should EVER disrespect his mother or father. It would be one thing if I CALLED his dad but I didnt, son does this.
AND physically I can NOT handle son.
My son may be an adult but he still lives off me and he is going to abide by my rules. I am sorry if you think I am wrong.

Renee

Snodderly can you please give me some advice...I miss U!

Renee, I agree with everyone here in the sense that your son is a grown man, there is nothing your XH can do about any of this. I would make this VERY CLEAR TO SON...... If you are going to live here, its my rules, its what I say, if you can't or won't live by them, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. I think you have to put it to him like that and stick by your guns. Don't call or talk to your XH anymore.

BH my friend did you not read what I wrote.
I DID NOT call my xh. My son did and does every time I put my foot down.
Yes he is a grown man BUT he lives under my roof.
I did say several times what you said above. Does not work. He is stronger than me so there is NO making him, like you said he is a grown man. I did speak to xh while son had him on the phone because son was telling him a bunch of lies and xh was believing him. I ask xh to take son to live with him and he said NO.
So now what?

BH I DO NOT expect xh to do anything, but obviously son does.
There is no talking to son about xh and I dont try. He takes his dads side and always will.
All I said to xh was son was pushing me and putting his finger in my face and he needed to talk to son about respecting me since son called him for advice. xh said "do NOT take sons phone again"lol whatever. This is a joke. xh is acting just like my son. This is why he left, well one of the main reasons...so he could have peace from sons attitude,,,so now he says to US "dont bother me about it, leave me alone"....in other words he could care less what our son says to me or treats me.
I dont care if we are divorced. I am the mother of his child. No MAN would ever let their children, no matter how old they are, disrespect their mother. It's just uncalled for. I dont disrespect my parents to this dad, well my mom is deceased.

Hi Renee,

I don't have time right now to talk. Got to get to work, but I'll respond more later. I can try to understand in a way b/c my GS lived with us when he was that age. He also was spoiled but maybe b/c of different reasons. Anyway, my stand is to use tough love. It will be extremly hard for you b/c of your lack of family and friends and your need for support at this time. However, if you want your son's respect and love now and in the future.....YOU MUST USE TOUGH LOVE NOW. If I were you, he would not live in my home at this time. I would tell him he had this week to find another place to live. Then, if necessary, I would change the locks on the doors. That would be a horrible move to resort to, but whatever it takes to show him that you are boss of that house and HE WILL NOT CONTROL YOU. He may be an adult but that IS YOUR HOUSE. How dare him to treat you that way! I promise that he will not love you less and he will be mad, but in the long run, he will respect you for standing up to him. Anytime a 19 year old tries to get physical.....it is time to make drastic changes. If you don't, rest assured he will take up where his dad left off! You will be under his control and you will be a prisioner. Don't allow this to happen. He will be fine, but he needs pushed out of the nest. It is apparent that he has it made and will do nothing to support himself. Kids his age will play Internet games and lay around every day as long as somebody else foots the bill. You see this right under your roof. He will never support a wife and kids if he doesn't learn to be a man. Mothers have to teach sons how to be a good daddy and husband. It was not so much my H that taught our son......it was me! So, be firm and tell him he has this week to find a place to live b/c you are not going to support his lazy a$$ any longer. He will either get angry or play on your symphathy, but don't cave. He'll get over it! Don't let anything he says to his dad bother you. Expect it. I don't think his dad is to be respected at all and expecially in this area!

Anyway, I'll talk more later. Be determined in your decision and don't falter. Don't let your emotions control your decision. You have nobody that will take care of Renee except "you".

Sandi

Renee, Sandi said it all in her post. Parents in today's society must retake control of thier homes, I deal with a lot of this everyday, parents saying they can't do anything with thier kids, well, its not CAN'T, its DON'T WANT TO.

Renee, I have to ask you this question. Why do you insist on talking to your XH? You take any opportunity to talk to him when you know darn good and well that he will not talk to you nor take your side no matter what it is. Its like you are obsessed with trying to get this man to talk to you. Renee, you are only making it worse.

We're on a roll here....I couldn't agree more. LOL! He is grown Renee. If he can't live by your rules and respect you, then it's time for him to get a taste of the real world......

...and no you don't need your xh's help with this one. YOU can handle this. YOUR house YOUR rules. It's that simple.

You could try asking in a different way that doesn't make him defensive or shame him. He knows that it makes you feel isolated to call his dad and it is his reaction to you.

Change how you act towards him and he will have no alternative but to change his REaction to you.

Sunshine, I said what I said because you still expect "help" from you ex to "raise" your son. It's over. He's an adult and it is no longer you h's job to help you.

Would it be a decent thing for him to do? Yes. But your h has shown repeatedly how cold and cruel he is toward you. Time to change you tack. I don't give a sh!t who calls who, just stop talking to your ex. Period!

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The point I am trying to get across and get advice on is...
First of all, NOW this just validates the reason why my xh left. I KNOW this is probably the main reason. Our son has been spoiled and it is BOTH our faults.

Are you saying that the reason your XH left you is b/c your son is spoiled??? Surely you meant something else besides the fact that both of you are guilty of spoiling your son. People do not divorce b/c they spoil their children!

I have observed parents with spoiled children for a long time. There is a difference in what some people call "spoiling" their kids. I have seen children treated very well and yet those kids are kind, respectful, unselfish, and are willing to get an education and go to work. I have seldom seen kids who get whatever they want as often as they want it....turn out to be sucessul adults. And, btw, you do not have to be rich to have spoiled kids. Undisciplined children turn into brats. When they don't want to do anything but what "they" want. It is bad enough to see little brats, but when they are grown brats......that is very, very BAD!

Children need to be MADE to do chores around the house......and especially take care of their own things (like their room, toys, laundry, car, etc.(depending on their age)and to know what it is to put in a day's work and to helpother people; and to obey their parents without any sass,backtalk, or attitude; and to go to school or get a job. These are only a few things that need to be inforced in order to have an unspoiled brat! Brats are those kids who nobody can stand b/c of their undisciplined behavior and bad attitudes. They show no respect and don't care about anybody but themselves. Later in life when they try to have R's with other people, it usually falls apart b/c they do not have the background of maturity that they need to build any foundation upon.

Renee, you and your H waited too long to try to train your son the way he should have grown up and now you don't have many options left available to you. About the only way this kid is going to turn around is to learn from the school of hard knocks. It will either be from those who love him or those who could care less. I would think it would be better to start with those who actually care about him. They call it
"tough" love for a reason. It is hard! It will not be easy and it will not be fun for you or him. However, it is not completely too late to make adjustments in him and for his sake, I hope you will begin this week. Expect him to resist you and put up a fight. Don't fight with him, just lay down the law.......that being he can no longer live with you and he has to get out. When he asks what he's suppose to do......tell him that is his problem. Sounds cold? Listen, the more suggestions you try to offer.....the bigger the battle will get, so the less said...the better. Don't suggest anything. If he wants to know why he has to get out, tell him he is grown and it's time. Just don't fall into the trap he will throw at you. He may try to make promises......don't buy into it. This is for his good. If you prove to him that you can do this.....it will cause him to respect you.

I don't think your son or your XH has ever respected you and you have lived with that treatment for so long, it feels normal to you, but it ISN'T normal. Please do not sit back and be treated like this in your home.

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Basically he stands behind son.

Oh really? Then why doesn't he have his son live with him? Let's see how much daddy stands behind his son after you tell him to find someplace else to live. I think daddy will bad-mouth you.

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BUT now that xh is out of the house he thinks he doesnt have to deal with it. Should he???

The fact that you even have to ask us is a sign that you are not as strong as you need to be, Renee. Your XH thinks he is getting a free ride out of this whole deal......and so far, he has! Why boys gets as old as your son is and he's showing disrepect for his mother.....it is high time that dear old dad steps in and get's this boy's attention. I don't think he will b/c he's too focused on what he (your XH) wants at the present. But you can't help that now. All you can do is be firm and don't allow either of them to take advantage of you. I may be wrong in my assumptions but what your H called wanting everything your way, etc., was probably you just making "noise" in protest to how you were being treated all those years. I think you did not know how to stand your ground and make them respect you. You may have complained, but it did not change anything. Now may be your last chance to make a difference where your son is concerned.

After your son is out of the house, never allow him to put you or his dad in the middle of his childish situations. For an example, the way the was on the two-way radio with his dad while he was wrestling with you over the Internet modem. That is crazy. Can't you see that this is his way of playing the two parents against each other? He knows how to work that part!

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Doesnt cuss me, but talks to me loudly and awful. (and where would he get that. hmmmmm).

As I told you once before......sons learn how to treat women from their dad. However, even if he learn to show you disrespect from his father.....YOU, Renee, are the one who allows him to continue. You allowed him to get away with it the first time he ever raised his voice to you. So, are you going to be the one to stop him??

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Until son gets a job and gets out on his own, or if he works, he can stay here WHILE helping me out.

Renee, get real. He is not going to help out around the house. What are you going to do if he doesn't.....spank him or make him have "time out"? No, it's time he moves....period.

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When I said this he got on the phone with dad and said tell her you are getting me a job, of course dad says yep. His dad has said this and said this, I dont believe nothing he says anymore.

Then why do you play this game?

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I made son let me have the phone and told xh that son disrespects me and puts his finger in my face and he needs to talk to son about it. What did xh tell me????

You know what? The two of you sound like little kids squabbling over something and call daddy to tattle! What did you expect your XH to do? Really! The man can't stand you, Renee. Did you actually think he was going to chew the son out for showing you the same feelings as your XH has? He probably thought it was funny.

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Well...he said "Give my son his phone back, I pay for that phone, DO NOT grab it out of his hand again"...in front of son he said this.

Well, I'm sorry.....but you deserved to hear that b/c you should know better! My gosh, what is it going to take for you to wake up? Why do you put out a welcome mat for him to say these nasty things to you? And.....this was right after you had seen him passing in the car, so I don't think he was sticking his neck out b/c he missed you and was trying to get a good look at you.

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I am at the end of my rope, I dont know what to do.

I'm telling you what to do, but we'll see if you have the courage.

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How in the world can I stay away from xh and let me go through MLC or whatever he is doing, when everytime my son and I argue, he gets on the phone to his dad and complains about me.

I can't believe you even said that! How can he do it??? Very easily! He does not want you any more. He does not respect you and futhermore, he will never respect you as long as you act like this. He looks at this as "your problems"....not his. Why on earth would you even expect your XH, who doesn't even like you any longer, to say anything to the son about respecting you? It would be a joke! The son knows his own father doesn't respect you and that you took that disrespect all the time he was growing up. He LEARNED how to do it from........guess who!

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Like I said this is probably the main reason my xh left and when son does this, it just validates why he left.

I don't think you are being realistic here, Renee. I think you are finding "other" reasons for your H leaving.

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If xh would just only say to out son to NOT disrespect me and back me up.

This is pathetic. Do you really think that your son would stop showing disrespect just b/c his dad said to? What do you call "backing you up"? Why would you expect a man, who feels by you the way your XH has made his feelings very obvious,.....support you with a 19 yr old boy? It is not going to happen, and if this experience did not teach you this, then I am afraid to think what your future is going to be like. Time to get a grip on reality and turn lose of this sorry excuse of a father and you make your son show you respect or else he can stop even coming to visit......much less think about living under your roof. You are in worse shape than I realized and you need to make drastic changes. You can do it......if you want to badly enough and have the guts to follow through and stop depending on your XH.

Sandi

One other thing I noticed. Your XH said he paid for that phone your son was using. Was he referring to a cell phone or does XH pay for the bills? Does he finance the house? If he does, then you might run up against a brick wall, at first. If your XH pays for the house or even the utilities then he will probably use excuse as his leverage. Even if your XH had you over a barrel where the house payments or utilities are concerned, there are other ways that you can get around that and force your son's hand. Let us know and we can figure out something.

Also remember how mad you were when XH said what he did in front of your son? You were talking in front of him also, weren't you? If not, then good. If you were talking to XH about your son disrespecting you, etc., the son heard that just as much as what your X said.....and neither should have been said in front of him.

It would be great if your X would grow up and support you where son is concerned, but he isn't so I hope you will take what has been said and think hard on it. I still want to be able to help you. Even if this is worse than taking medicine, it will help in the long run.

Sandi

Renee,

You need to put your foot down with your son before things get out of hand. I have a brother who is 12 years younger than me. He turns 30 this month and is just now moving away from my parents house. My mother has let him walk all over her for years. If he got in a bind, she bailed him out. He didn't do anything around the house to help out and she did everything for him. He needed cigarettes, she bought them. He needed gas money, she gave it to him. He was late on a car payment, she paid it.

She did this to the point of her and my father loosing their home. She would pay for things to help him out even if she didn't have the money.

He has had many jobs over the years but he is lazy. If he didn't feel like going to work then he didn't. If he went out with friends and got home late and was too tired to go to work, he didn't. I blame a lot of this on my brother but also on my mother for enabling him for so long. He has decided to move out with his girlfriend now and my mother is beside herself. She is afraid he will get out there and find out he can't make it. I told her he was 30 years old and it was time for him to man up. This is what you need to do with your son. Tough love...they all need it one time or another.

My brother also "pretended" like he was going to hit my mom at times. My mom is about 5'4" and weighs 100lbs wet and he is 6'2" and weighs about 200lbs. She does not need that stress and neither do you. You need to sit your son down and give him the "house rules" and tell him if he doesn't abide by them then he has to leave. My daughter is 18 and graduated from high school last week and I sat her down and told her that she would have more freedom now that she is an adult but as long as she lived under my roof that she had to listen to me. She has a job and has been paying her own car payment for the last 1 1/2 years. That is how they learn responsibility. I told her I would not charge rent but that she could help out as needed.

Your son will think you are against him and maybe threaten to go live with his father and if he does tell him that is fine. You don't need the added stress in your life. Besides, you have your nephew you are raising and if he sees that your son isn't doing his fair share then he will grow up thinking he doesn't have to do anything either.

As for grabbing the phone and telling your xh how he was doing, I probably would have done the same thing. I am not saying it was the right thing to do but I understand how you want help in dealing with your son. If your xh was any kind of man then he would have gotten back on the phone with your son and told him he needs to listen and respect you. For him to act so childish shows he is no more of a man than your son. They are playing games with you. Stop it now. I know you want a friendship with your xh but sometimes it just isn't meant to be. Heck, my stbx told me one time he was hoping we could be best of friends again one day. Umm, no thank you. I will be civil to him for the kids sake but that is it.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with your son. Just remember, even if he gets mad he will always love you.

Originally Posted By: Kimmie Lee

Sunshine, I said what I said because you still expect "help" from you ex to "raise" your son. It's over. He's an adult and it is no longer you h's job to help you.

Kimmie I dont expect my xh to help me RAISE my son, my son is already "raised", BUT yes I guess I did expect him "being a dad", to tell son to NOT disrespect his mother. As Sandi said though, why I thought my xh would tell son this is beyond me.
I guess I thought by staying away from xh for 3 months or so would lesson his anger toward me. I was wrong!
Kimmie I am just trying so hard for everybody to get along. It saddens me. I guess I am trying to hard and expecting too much.

Renee

Originally Posted By: braveheart

You are right BH.
What is your occupation? If you dont mind me asking.

Originally Posted By: braveheart

BH I dont insist on talking to him. I know it looks like I do but I dont.
I have tried my hardest to stay away from him and not communicate with him.
Yes I did grab son's phone. He was taking everything to the extreme, and really making things worse. He was wanting his dad to take his side.
I couldnt take it anymore and I tried to demand that my xh stand up and be a man and do what he did when he was home. "Demand son to respect his mother".
Didnt work did it. Lesson learned again.
BH I am "obsessed" with trying to get along with everybody involved.
I am still trying to adapt to a man I loved for 20 years and who I know loved me back, now almost hating me.
The hard thing to do.

Renee

Originally Posted By: trapt

Trapt his dad will not let him live with him and son has no where else to go.
I am sorry but it is sooo hard for me to just set him out with no where to go.
I know I need to teach him a lesson. It would be one thing if his dad would let him live with him but his dad wants no part of the drama.
Cant say i blame his dad, but that being said, he is his DAD.
I was raised that no matter what your age you still respect your parents and your parents will always be there for you.

Are you saying that the reason your XH left you is b/c your son is spoiled??? Surely you meant something else besides the fact that both of you are guilty of spoiling your son. People do not divorce b/c they spoil their children!

Sandi my xh didnt exactly leave because our son is spoiled, but being spoiled plays a part of why son acts out the way he does, and xh has said he is going to live the rest of his life in peace.
I have thought about this many times and I do think this is one of the main reasons my xh left. I say this because of all the comments xh has made before and after divorce. I dont know if you read, please forgive me for repeating myself if you did, but xh said once. "I am leaving, you can go with me if you want to". We had been dealing with son with the same issues, no job, computer all the time and disrespecting me.
Xh said he couldnt take it anymore but I could always talk to xh and settle him down a bit. This went on and on and I think "among" other stuff that happened, pushed my xh over the edge. I am not saying it is my sons fault. I am saying it is a mixture of things. I should not have said it was the main reason. I was wrong in saying that.

I hope you will begin this week. Expect him to resist you and put up a fight. Don't fight with him, just lay down the law.......that being he can no longer live with you and he has to get out.

Sandi, I do lay down the law to him, but I will be honest with you. I dont know if I can just put him out. I am sorry, I know I need to, but he has no where to go.
I did send him to his dads once and he came back begging me to forgive him.
It's funny how much he loves his dad and talks to him with respect...even beyond respect now. (Son is so afraid of losing his dad he says "I am sorry dad" every other sentence.), but yet he doesnt like staying with his dad unless its on a trip.
My xh though told son right up front that he could not live with him. I think that its sad, compared to the relationship his dad and him had.

I don't think your son or your XH has ever respected you and you have lived with that treatment for so long, it feels normal to you, but it ISN'T normal. Please do not sit back and be treated like this in your home.

Son does talk to me like my xh "sometimes did". I dont want you to think xh or son "always" talked to me this way. Just sometimes.
I honestly feel like I am bashing xh and son, and I dont want to do that. I dont want you or anyone else here to think they "always" were mean to me. They loved me and did do nice things for me. It was just when they were in a bad mood, or didnt get their way they could for sure have their little moments. Generally though my xh seemed to always raise his voice, so I think son picked up on that.
Sandi I just dont want to give you the impression that they were like this all the time. The fact that they were hateful and disrespectful at all is wrong, but they were also good to me many times.
I will have to say though that son and dad fought alot more than xh and I did. I always tried to take sons side and get xh to cave. THIS WAS NOT GOOD! and now I am paying for that.
I just didnt like the way my xh yelled and cussed at son, and he did this most of the time during arguments.

Sandi I wanted to give you an example of how xh talks to son. When they were on the phone and son was complaining, son was also cryiing a little because he was soooo mad at me. XH yelled at son and told him he was tired of him acting like a baby and #$%%%% crying all the time. Am I the only one that thinks this is wrong? There is other ways in dealing with a child, even adult child other than cussing and yelling.
This is what xh did when we fought also. Most of the time he yelled and cussed and threatened leaving.

BUT now that xh is out of the house he thinks he doesnt have to deal with it. Should he???

The fact that you even have to ask us is a sign that you are not as strong as you need to be, Renee.

Sandi as you can see alot of people on here disagree with the fact that I think xh should help, so that is why I asked SHOULD HE?

For an example, the way the was on the two-way radio with his dad while he was wrestling with you over the Internet modem. That is crazy. Can't you see that this is his way of playing the two parents against each other? He knows how to work that part!

Sandi how am I suppose to keep son from calling his dad (while he is still in the home)? I tried to talk to his dad because I felt like I had to defent myself.
Yes I do see what he is doing.

Renee, get real. He is not going to help out around the house.

Sandi son had a job and he did give me most of his money. He quit after 3 or 4 months though. Also he does pick up the house. It's just this staying in his room on the computer and not trying to find another job and mostly his attitude toward me, like he is the MAN of the house.

You know what? The two of you sound like little kids squabbling over something and call daddy to tattle! What did you expect your XH to do? Really! The man can't stand you, Renee. Did you actually think he was going to chew the son out for showing you the same feelings as your XH has? He probably thought it was funny.

Sandi. I didnt want son to call his dad. What was I suppose to do after he did call him?
Yes I probably did actually think he was going to say something to son.
I left my xh alone and hadnt even seen him in 3 months, I thought maybe the anger would have lessoned by now. I was wrong. I honestly thought maybe when he stuck his head out the window he was just being nosey maybe.
I thought maybe this time, xh will say something to son like he did when he was home.
Yes he probably did laugh at me. He did say "he would never understand us over here"...what the heck is that suppose to mean? (sorry if I already asked this).

I can't believe you even said that! How can he do it??? Very easily! He does not want you any more. He does not respect you and futhermore, he will never respect you as long as you act like this. He looks at this as "your problems"....not his. Why on earth would you even expect your XH, who doesn't even like you any longer, to say anything to the son about respecting you? It would be a joke! The son knows his own father doesn't respect you and that you took that disrespect all the time he was growing up. He LEARNED how to do it from........guess who!

I think you misunderstood the question. I didnt mean how can my xh stay away from me. I meant, how can I give my xh space when son keeps complaining to him about me. Like you said xh is never going to respect me if this keeps happening.
Son is always going to go running to dad whether he lives here or not. Son and I will disagree again and he will probably call his dad again. KWIM?
I know xh doesnt like me Sandi.
Everyone here, says to leave xh alone. I am trying to do that, but son talks to him often and I am sure he gets mad and wants xh to take his side even when I dont know it, and the arguing just validates one of the reasons why xh left. XH will never get the chance to deal with whatever he is dealing with and he will never want to come home if this keeps happening, why would he?

This is pathetic. Do you really think that your son would stop showing disrespect just b/c his dad said to? What do you call "backing you up"?

Yes Sandi I think it would help. He doesnt seem to do this as much when his dad puts his foot down.
I call backing me up...when son calls to complain to his dad, I expect his dad to tell him, "son you leave with your mom so you go by her rules, grow up and stop calling me to complain", this would be good for starters. Unrealistic??? Anything would be better than telling him to get away from me and agreeing with son when xh isnt even here to hear or see whats going on.

Sandi I was wrong to think things may have gotten a little better between xh and I since we have not seen or hardly spoken to each other. How long does this anger last?

You are in worse shape than I realized

Hmmmm...this says alot to me. I have thought this all along.
Sandi, thank you for all your advice.

Renee

Renee

Okay, I'm back for another round...lol.

First, let me say amen and amen to T2SP's post!

I know it makes for a long post but I feel that I need to respond to separate things that have been said in order to make sure it is covered. Hope you don't mind.

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... xh said once. "I am leaving, you can go with me if you want to". We had been dealing with son with the same issues, no job, computer all the time and disrespecting me.
Xh said he couldnt take it anymore but I could always talk to xh and settle him down a bit. This went on and on and I think "among" other stuff that happened, pushed my xh over the edge.

Wow.....that's just sad. But I still think it was your H's way of bailing out of a bad situation instead of maning up and taking hold of the stitch the way he needed to do. People can't just turn their backs and leave when life gets hard. Of course, that's what "he" has done, but it will catch up with him. There will be a payday someday.

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Sandi, I do lay down the law to him, but I will be honest with you. I dont know if I can just put him out. I am sorry, I know I need to, but he has no where to go.

Okay. But what do you do when you lay down the law and he still does not abide by that law? You see, if he has no consequenses to suffer--by not respecting your rules, then what does it matter to him? That is the law of the land. You either obey the laws or you suffer the consequenses. What will he do if he chooses to go out and rob a bank? Will he think he'll get off b/c somebody will bail him out? It will be the same case as T2SP's parents with the 30 year old. Listen, I have seen it happen with my own in-laws. It was horrible and guess where that 38 year old "kid" of theirs is now? In the pen. If they are not made to respect rules and laws and people in authority (parents, teachers, judges, etc.) then they are in for a bad time of it. Perhaps you think I'm going over-board in your case, but I've seen it happen too many times where parents would cater to their kids and bail them out and refuse to make them take responsibility for their actions. It is up to you as to how long you want to live in that environment, but it is not good for your son. Look at that 30 year old who is going to live with his girlfriend and mamma is worried he won't make it. I can promise her he won't make it! But, I think I can also predict that she will continue to bail him out b/c he will go to her and keep going until she is completed deleted of any souce of funds or ways of assisting him and then he'll be through with her and move on to the next sucker. Listen, I helped burry a woman this week who raised three generations of kids b/c hers would not be responsible parents like they should be and would cast their children off on her to raise. They killed her! In fact, the last time I had a conversation with her, I tried to tell her that they were doing that very thing and she said, "But what am I suppose to do?" and I told her that if she died tomorrow, they would find some way to take care of their families. Well, guess what? It looks like they will have to, now! So, it bothers me to see grown children take advantage of their parents, but at the same time......guess where it started and who is to blame for the kids being the way they are?

I see you as being a peacemaker. I see that as being a big part of your personality. I can see you being caught in the middle between your child and your H when the son was growing up. However, things are much different now and we could talk all day about how things were not done correctly in the past and it will not change the way things are today. So, you have to approach your problems with "how to deal today".....not "how should it have been done differently" b/c that is really a waste of time, right?

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I did send him to his dads once and he came back begging me to forgive him.

I'm sure that Dad made it so uncomfortable for the son that he would never want to live with him again. Remember, that was one of the reasons for Dad leaving.......to have "peace", right? So, he's not about to allow his son to have a grand old time at "his" house. That is why he made this statement:

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he would never understand us over here"

You asked what he meant by that, well he meant that son would not be happy in their environment b/c Dad would make sure of that. He "implied" that they were strict over there and you weren't. He has no intentions of son laying around his house all day and staying on the computer instead of working.

You do know that computers are very, very addictive, don't you? People have lost their jobs b/c they couldn't stay off the computer! I think it is so much worse with the younger generation b/c they were born into this era of technology and don't know how to do things the way most of us did when we were growing up. I watch my little GD and she doesn't even play "house" like I did when I was her age. She's got some kind of tech toy playing games! If I told her to go build a "playhouse", she would probably think I meant to build one out of wood...lol.

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It's funny how much he loves his dad and talks to him with respect...even beyond respect now. (Son is so afraid of losing his dad he says "I am sorry dad" every other sentence.), but yet he doesnt like staying with his dad unless its on a trip.

I don't know that it is as much "respect" as it is "fear". You said yourself that he is afraid of losing his dad. Kids fear parents b/c of them being too strict (or abusive) or rejection. Don't you think your son knows how his dad feels about him? If your XH yelled and cussed and carried on in front of son.....then he probably expressed his true feelings without holding back on account of son listening. In fact, I would think that your son is dealing with some "guilt" about his dad leaving. That guilt is not being "displayed" the way it seems it would be......but all the same, if he has any smarts at all, he knows some of the problems that his dad had where he (son) was concerned. Still doesn't justify his disrespect toward you as his mother, but you are the reason behind him being that way and you will have to be the one to change it.....not your XH.

Remee, the sooner you will realize that your X is no longer going to "help" you with son or anything else in your life, the better you will actually become. You will be stronger and your self-esteem will be healthier when you stop depending on X to help. He's made it abundantly clear how he feels toward you and now that you have explained more about X's feelings toward the raising of your son.....I think more than just "you" were involved in his leaving the M and home. I still think he's in MLC but due to his previous inabilities to properly raise his son and his temper and all of it put together.......the thoughts of him ever returning to a M with you doesn't look to promising. I'm sorry. I don't mean to kick you in the gut when I say things so bluntly. I don't know how to tell it like it is without being plain.

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I dont want you to think xh or son "always" talked to me this way. Just sometimes.

I understand. And, like you said that they did not always treat you badly, etc., but I look at it this way Remee, it only takes a little poison to make you die. What do you think killed the M? Poison! As I told you, listening to your posts is like hearing my sister tell her stitch. It breaks my heart to see her spend so many years in the mess she has. She could have prevented it, but she sat back and took what was dished out to her. Now, I don't think there is much hope where her son is concerned, but I certainly "hope" I'm wrong. He is older than your son, but quickly on his way to being like the 30 year old that was described. In fact, he's almost that age now and still lives at home, being disrespectful to his mom, fears his dad, never has a social life apart from his dad, has hardly ever dated, and would not have a job if not for his dad hiring him. It seemed him and his dad had a good R when he was young, also....but that R is quickly souring and dad is talking the same way your X did. He wants out of the mess he help create! You see, they have not "raised" him to be self-suffient. He will not have it easy as an adult. My nephew is frustrated and isn't happy and he isn't sure why. I can tell you why. B/c it's not normal the way he has grown up!

I know you want better for your child. As I said, it is late, but hopefully not completely too late. It will not be at all easy for you to try to turn your son around. You need to think about what to do that would be his consequenses if he does not go to work, if he shows direspect, etc. You have to have him abide by your rules if you allow him to continue to live with you. He is a lucky young man. What would happen to him if (God forbid) you accidently died? He would "have" to find a way without you, then, wouldn't he? Besides, you don't want him to meet a girl and fall love and want to get M and not even be able to support a family! You know yourself how hard it is to be M and raise a family, so he needs to be growing up, getting a job established and mature before getting M.

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Sandi how am I suppose to keep son from calling his dad (while he is still in the home)?

I don't suggest you try to keep him from calling his dad. My point was him calling his dad in the mist of the two of you having an argument and him "tattling" to his dad about you. Also, my point was that you not talk to the dad, as well. That is when your self-discipline would have to come into play. It is your nature to want to talk to XH, so if your son is on the phone....and even if he's talking about you.....turn around and leave the room. Refuse to talk to your X. Yes, it will be hard at first, but you'll learn.

You forgot to say whether your X helps with the bills, etc. I wondered by him telling you to give that phone back to son b/c he (dad) paid for it. If it is a cell phone and your X pays the phone bill, then you don't say anything......just don't fall into that entrapment like before. If your X doesn't pay the "bill" then that is a different story. It's one thing to buy a cell phone and yet quite another to pay the monthly bill.

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BUT now that xh is out of the house he thinks he doesnt have to deal with it. Should he???

There may be differnent opinions about whether he should or should not, but the point is that HE ISN'T!! That is what you have to coop with, is that he isn't taking any responsibility for anything in your life....including his son. I think he looks at his son as already "being raised" and his job is over. What he won't accept is the fact he just run away from it. But, anyway, he's not going to do anything about son, so forget that.

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I tried to talk to his dad because I felt like I had to defent myself.

I know, sweetie, but can you take an older person's advice about that? Don't even try. It won't do any good. You are wasting your breath b/c XH doesn't give a flip one way or the other. (Brutally plain again)

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like he is the MAN of the house.

That idea could have been planted by somebody else, but anyway, you have to be the one to make him think otherwise.

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I meant, how can I give my xh space when son keeps complaining to him about me. Like you said xh is never going to respect me if this keeps happening.

Okay, you can't control what your son does 24/7. He will talk to dad sooner or later and he may complain about you. That is really doesn't have anything to do about you giving XH space. The problem that comes into play is when "you" talk to the XH over the phone. That is not giving him space!! Also, what I meant was when you were trying to "defend" yourself, XH saw it as you being like a child and tattling or complaining to him to make the son behave and respect you. Does that clearify things a little better? I know I don't make myself understood a lot of times. I am going too fast and trying to cover too much ground.

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I left my xh alone and hadnt even seen him in 3 months,

I'm sure that seems life forever to you, but it isn't when two people have gone separate ways and he's not wanting to see or hear from you. Bear that in mind.

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I expect his dad to tell him, "son you leave with your mom so you go by her rules, grow up and stop calling me to complain", this would be good for starters. Unrealistic??? Anything would be better than telling him to get away from me and agreeing with son when xh isnt even here to hear or see whats going on.

So, are you going to turn to XH again?

Quote:

How long does this anger last?

Well, for starters, I would look at three years instead of expecting a change in three months. However, he may never change his feelings, Renee. The sad truth is that some people never get over their past. I hope he will, but what garantees do you have? None. So, what will you do with the rest of your life?

If I've taken up all your space, then just start another thread.....

I'll talk to you later,
Sandi

Sandi I will post more later but for right now I have this to say.
I have tried so hard to make peace with my xh concerning everything.
It hurts me to no end to see how mad he is with me. The anger bothers me so much for some reason.
My main problem right now, as far as xh is concerned, is trying to stop the anger he has toward me. I want us to be civil so badly it kills me inside. Just being honest.
I know this is a problem.
How can I stop myself from wanting to fix my xh's anger??? How???
I have left him messages before telling him not to worry that I would take care of things on my end and that I was glad he is happy.
I have tried everything, even giving him money in the begginning, to ease the hatred.
He would catch us being nice to one another and instantly start up the anger again.
I have GOT to STOP trying to make peace. What can I do to stop this. It is an internal battle...truthfully an internal battle.
I am ok that we are divorced and my xh may never return.
I am NOT OK that we will NEVER be civil to each other.
Sad isnt it? Sad for me.

Another question Sandi is this:
My xh is soooo nervous when he talks to me (past wise). AND people have told me is acts "paranoid" all the time.
Why the nervousness and paranoia?

As far as the cell goes. My xh bought the phone for him and pays the bill.

I will post more tonight.

HUGS TO YOU MOM!
Renee

Sandi and the rest.
I wanted to add something else.
My xh said to me also in a state of anger once, "you made me leave my family"?????????
Sandi, I truly think my xh is NOT happy. I think he to is fighting an internal battle. He is fighting the quilt of what he did and throwing it all at me because he truly cant handle it.
Until he gets over feeling quilty he will always be angry at me.
I dont know if he is happy with this girl or not, but I know he is not happy about what happened to his life and what he did.
He wasnt happy here so he left, now he still isnt happy BECAUSE HE HAD TO LEAVE. She, the gf, gets his mind off it every now and then...the bandaide. I am truly understanding this now.
WOW...it totally makes sense.
The bandaide can only last so long it seems.
He wants a family so bad and is mad that he had to leave ours.
His anger however he has to fix himself. He has got to come to grips with it.
I wish so much I could talk to him and say to him its ok, I forgive you. Not to get him back but just to let him know I understand.

Should I write him a letter or leave him a voice mail letting him know this?
Just a question. I will not contact him otherwise.
I know everyone says to NOT call him, so I wont unless you think this is a good idea.
Sandi, do you think he will ever come to grip with the guilt?
Do you think he will ever get over being "mad" at me?
Is there any hope ever again for our family?

Renee

Sandi out of all that I wrote above.
The sum of it is that it saddens me sooooo much to think my xh and I may never speak again.
20 years for it to end like this.
This hurts.

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

I wish so much I could talk to him and say to him its ok, I forgive you. Not to get him back but just to let him know I understand.

Should I write him a letter or leave him a voice mail letting him know this?
Just a question. I will not contact him otherwise.
I know everyone says to NOT call him, so I wont unless you think this is a good idea.
Sandi, do you think he will ever come to grip with the guilt?
Do you think he will ever get over being "mad" at me?
Is there any hope ever again for our family?

Renee

Renee,

You know the answer to this already. It starts with N and ends in O.

You will make him angry or at the very least upset with you.

You know this already.

Nobody here has the answers to those questions. It's something you have to accept. To keep asking is to keep traveling down that dead end road.

Renee,

Write a letter to him. Put in it all your feelings (good and bad). Let him know how you feel about him and the way he treats you. Open your heart and just let the words flow freely onto the paper. When you are done, throw it away.

Do NOT give it to him. You will be surprised at at how you will feel afterward. You get to let your feelings out without doing any damage. I used to do it. It made me feel so much better.

Try it, it can't hurt anything. Just make sure you throw it away so no one sees it.

Well... hello there!

Put it in your mind that you are never going to speak with XH again except for special occasions like your son's wedding or birth of grandchildren. It worked for my parents.

I think your biggest concern now should be in getting your son to become an independent man. When I got out of the military, I moved back in with my father and his wife. I was there about a month before he gave me the boot. I did not take it personal and it caused me to figure out that I needed to fend for myself. Right now I think you are being an enabler to your son developing lazy habits.

The hard part for you is going to be making some drastic changes.

Hey Kerry!!

I need a favor.

Oh Renee, yes it is sad. I think he needs professional help b/c I think his problem started a long time ago.

Now listen to me carefully. You are very, very co-dependent on this man and you MUST break it off NOW. You are going down if you don't help yourself. For God's sake don't call him anymore. And....I can't believe you gave him money. Sweetie, you cannot buy people's affection, love or friendship! It is so sad and pitiful the way you have tried everything you can think of to "make" him not be angry with you. It is as if you can deal with him living with OW and the D but you cannot stand the thought of him being angry with you. Why? Why is that, Renee? YOU are the one who has a right to be mad as h*ll with him! Don't you get that? Why should he be mad at you? Well.....don't even try to answer, b/c I've read enough that I know what your answer will be. But, that answer does not make what he's doing RIGHT.

Do NOT try to see him ever again except if your son is in the ER about to die, getting M or having a baby! And then "you" don't need to make the call....have another person inform him. Let your son if he isn't in ER! Do you get that? Never! Never talk to him, never leave voice mail, never send leters, never send emails, and never send a message by another person to him. It is over....finished.....through! No, I do not think that he will ever go back to you and I sure don't think he will get over his anger with you....EVER. B/c you are his patsy and it's too easy to blame you for everything that ever made him unhappy! And futhermore....YOU TOOK THE BLAME! I don't get it. I don't get you! I've tried to understand and I've tried to be patient and I still care very much!

I get loving a person all your life, but this is sick IMHO. It is not love....it is something else.....and I wish to God you could get to a professional for help with it. I'm not trying to beat you up, but I am very frustrated that you can't see what you are doing and how unhealthy all of it is. Even though I realize everyone is not like me, and I don't expect them to be....I can't understand how a man could treat a woman as horrible as he's treated you and you are worried to death he may always be angry at you and you just want to be friends with him. You sound like a woman who has been physically abused and she's still worried that her H will be angry...even if he's locked up in the pen for nearly killing her! I see the signs of a form of abuse in your M based on my own connections with the problem....as I've explained before. That is why I say you need help, sweetie, professional help. Surly there is somebody that you can pay on a "sliding scale" rate. Research to see if there is a Christian counseling center in the area...that can help you.

So...you had 20 years together! If he committed the worst crime you could imagaine, would you still cling to him and cry, "But we had 20 years together"? It is time to put this behind you and move on. People change, Renee, and often it is not for the better. He is a prime example of not changing for the better and there is not one thing you can do about it. Why bother? You cannot change him.....get that through your head. You cannot change the situation with him, but you can change YOUR life for the better if you will stop this crying over some sorry excuse of a mna and move on. I know it has not seem enough time.....I can understand, but at the same time, a person has to help themselves. They have to "accept" things as they are and stop fantasizing about changing it. That is what keeps you pulled down. You are constantly replaying the past, wondering what went wrong and what "you" could have done differently....and it is very unhealthy. You said you needed to understand what went wrong before you could move on. why? What difference would it make? It won't change reality. I did try to take all of that into consideration when you explained it had been six months since the D, but in all your posts of rehashing the past events......what has come of it? Nothing but more pain, so I see no benefit for you to put yourself through that pain when there is nothing you can do about it. You said you could learn so you would not repeat it in the future. Well....the most important thing to learn is NOT to marry another man like "this" man. That is the most valuable lesson here. Yes, you can learn and I see things you have owned up to in the bad decisions you made regarding your son and other things. It's good that you've done that, sweetie, it really is. But it worries me that you keep playing out in your mind what "he" did to you, to the son, and in the MR. You worry about him now and how he feels toward you .....now. That's not right....in my book. You have tried to talk to him and see him and nothing will appease him where you are concerned, so give it up.

Look at it this way.....what if it was a disease that you could not understand anything about it? You would still have to deal with the results of what the disease was doing.

I suppose I am verbally shaking you so you will get a grip and realize how all that stuff about wanting to tell him you forgive him, etc. is useless. He doesn't give a cr@p if you forgive him or not! So, he can't handle the guilt, and he probably isn't truly happy.......he's not looking to you to change that. You need to face the truth Renee, and stop trying to see a way that you can squeeze into the picture.

Quote:

The bandaide can only last so long it seems.

You are right! However, in all honesty, I don't see him returning to you after the bandaide therapy stops working. I think he will find another avenue in life or a different woman. He will go the rest of his life trying to find a new bandaide b/c that is the kind of man he is. He holds onto his anger b/c he "wants" to hold it. You can pray for him to find the help he needs, but please stop doing this to yourself.

I'm sure you will not like what I've said and I know it has been tough for you to read. If you don't want me to send anymore posts, I'll respect that. However, I had to tell you what is about to explode from my head b/c it gets me so bad to see you do this to yourself. He's not doing it, Renee, YOU are doing it. You asked me "how" you let go of him. You leave him alone! You detach from him physically and emotionally. That's how. Stop thinking of ways to contact him and keep him as a friend. You don't need him as a friend!! You move on with your life and stop dwelling on him all the time. You fill every waking moment with him on your mind. You may try to pretend you don't when around others, but I know you do. It takes mental discipline and it's not easy....but it is very possible b/c people do it all the time. You pull back everytime you find yourself thinking of him and find something else to occupy your mind. You have to do this "on purpose". The more co-dependent a person is, the harder it is to wean themselves. Yes, I said "wean" b/c in many ways he is like an addiction to you. A sick addiction that makes no sense to the "lay person" who is not a professional counsselor.

I have told you what I 100% feel that you should do. If you choose to ignore people's advice and butt with your own head.....you are opening yourself for much more pain. Seek peace b/c it is the best thing to have. When I was young and immature, I sought "happiness" and looked for my ship to arrive every day. It did not happen. That only happen in movies and dreams. But, I did find "peace of mind" and I can tell you that it is the best!

Take care of yourself,
Sandi

Sandi I am not upset at you for being honest.
Yes there is more to tell you about myself and my mother.
This plays a part in why I am co-dependent maybe.
It is a story I will post tommorrow, too long for tonight.
You said it right when you said the anger I cannot handle. It's like I will do anything to have this man in my life and I think I may know why. I have been doing alot of revisting the past and just not my marriage, I am talking about my childhood. I will talk about that tommorrow.
I will say this. Please dont think I am "sick" YET. Please dont jump to conclusion until you hear the story I am about to tell.
After that maybe you will understand. I think I am starting to realize why I am so desperate for my xh's FRIENDSHIP at the least. I will say this...I think SOME and I mean just a small part of it is to do with the fact that I FINALLY found someone to love me and stick with me and I refuse to lose them for good, whether it be h or friend. Sad but true.

I had to add that this board can be helpful but at the same time VERY CONFUSING. I say this because many people have different opinions. I myself have had different opinions. I appreciate them all but at the same time its confusing. It is especially confusing to someone like me that is grasping at straws to learn why I am the way I am.
A few people here, I cant even remember who, have told me that I need to show my xh that he can trust me again. That I need to take half the blame for what I have done. That I dont need to be upset with my xh, to look at this as an illness. Some have said to validate his feelings and be a safe place for him to land if he does.
THIS is why I am trying to understand and NOT be mad at my h.
I have took that route and then some here tell me that I am taking the wrong road. I am so confused.
Be nice to him,,,,,be mad at him,,,,,what is right?
Please dont get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's help and advice, its just WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG.
When I think I understand and have the answer I get another person telling me "I am WRONG"

Sandi I will post more tomorrow.
and PLEASE NOONE get offended by what I have just said. It WAS NOT meant to be disrespectful or offensive.

I appreciate you all!
Hugs,
Renee

Renee, I went back to take another look at the beginning of your thread and I did not find anyone giving you different advice. Even from the beginning, people tried to tell you to stop clinging to him and to stop contacting him. If you were refering to people in your town or family who has talked to you....then you need to stop talking to them and listen to those on the board who are familiar with DB techniques or you will be confused! Everyone has an opinion! But we go by what is in the book. Here is a quote from one of your early threads:

Quote:

In all honesty, being 3 months into this, have I really had time to start "faking" my attitude or should it still be this difficult to do. Have I had time to get over the begging him to come back and so forth. Remember I didnt know he was so unhappy until he dropped the bomb on me that day in Sept. Should I be making more progress than this or am I about on track according to the time table?

Last September......it won't be long until it is a year.....and really you have had more than six months into this stitch. I guess you said six months since the D. SirPrizeMe got very blunt with you in this post back at the end of December. It sounds like one I could have sent!

Quote:

It is not too late. Leave him alone. Let him be.
You asked about a timetable. There is no timetable.

Then the very next post that you replied to Sir went like this:

Quote:

Sir I spoke with him yesterday to wish him a Happy New Year.

The "oldtimers" of the DB board are telling you to leave the man alone from the very beginning and you completely ignore the tools given you. Snodderly told you right up front to step back and stop pursuing. Dawn of Hope has not been here long, but she also said this and I thought it showed a lot of wisdom and was plain spoken:

Quote:

I do not want to hurt your feelings, but I think you have some 2x4s coming. Please, please, please stop contacting him except in case of a true emergency.

Was2Sad came to my thread when I first came on board and left good advice for me. This is a short quote that was given to you at the beginning of the year:

Quote:

The point here is this. You are asking yourself questions again about him. You will not find answers. There are none. Only more questions. You still have not yet begun to focus enough on yourself. No amount of reading will guide him to a professional for a diagnosis of something he does not believe he has.

That post went on to say about the same thing I have been trying to tell you. But notice how you relplied. It is the same thing you are still asking.

Quote:

Was2Sad do you think guilt is causing the anger in him?

Was2Sad just told you in the previous post that you would not find answers and it's like you aren't really listening.

Do you know that when I fist started to post to you, I just barely skimmed over a few of the posts to get an idea of what "you" were saying about your stitch.....not so much of what others were saying. I find it amazing that the ones I went back to read are NOT giving you different opinions and that Snodderly and I have almost said word for word the same thing over and over to you. I tried to read most of what had been posted but you had so many places and jumping around that I gave up. I did not have time to read so much and frankly it was basically the same thing being said over and over and you still were doing what Renee wants to do. I can see why some people's patience would run thin and finally give up. I don't think it is so much that you "can't understand" what is being said to you, as you often reply, but that it is you "don't want to". If it is therapy for you to journal about your day, etc., then that's fine. Most newcomes do that, but if you are not implemeting the tools that people are trying to give you, then I am concerned that many will finally give up and won't know anything else to say. You need to show you are at least putting forth one foot in front of the other to make progress.

If you go back and re-read your threads, you will see how many times you say that you "know you did the wrong thing, but........" and then you go into all the things you did that were opposite from what you should be doing. If you "know" then don't say you are trying to understand. There is a difference in trying to understand a concept and being too stubborn to put it into action. I believe you are so co-dependent on your H that you not only do not "want" to stop doing what you are doing, but I don't think you have intentions of stopping. Am I right or wrong? If I'm wrong, then tell me what your plans are for the next two weeks to keep your mind off of him and his GH. Oh, and BTW, you know when I told you in that last post that he would have a string of girlfriends? I did not know at that time he already had done that! I was under the impression he left you....using this OW as his excuse. But now I see it wasn't just one woman.

You have told us time after time how blunt he's been about wanting you to leave him alone. If he happen to say one word to you, you took it to mean he wanted you. He physically pushed you away when you were forcing yourself on him for sex. My gosh, woman, have some self-respect! I don't know what your mother has to do with your M problems, but all of us could find reasons for being the way we are. I'm not saying you don't have sufficient reasons for being co-dependent and I'm sure you have a sad story (not being sarcastic) about your past. If you want to share it and if it will help you, then fine. The point I wast to make with you is this; how will all of that that has happen in your past help you to move away from this situation now? You said you wanted to understand it and as you've been told.....you will never have all the answers. Yes, it would help to see a professional psychologist. I think you and your H needs one.

Instead of telling about your mother and why you may be so co-dependent, why not tell us how you plan to stop being co-dependent. If you know why you are that way.....that is all that matters. What you need to do next is to accept the reasons for being like you are and look at the steps you can take to change all of that. Isn't that what people have been talking about since you came here? People have said over and over how you need to work at "you" changing......not how to get your XH back into your life or keep hanging onto that emotional "rope" you keep tied to your XH.

We talk about "baby-steps", Renee, b/c that is what each person has to start with....one tiny step at a time. Can't you do that? Can't you make out a plan and take baby-steps in learning how to walk? B/c you need to walk away from your XH. No, that is not what you want to hear, is it? From what I've read...we've all said that but in our own different styles. I hope you will finally listen with your heart and know we are right and that you must begin a new chapter in your life. You are still young and can have a bright future if you will choose to walk away from this man and all his "problems". You can't fix him and he doesn't want you to. How many times is he going to have to tell you and be so ugly to you trying to make you realize he doesn't want anymore to do with you?

Let us hear how you plan to start on a fresh new path of getting better, okay?

Sandi

Although your behavior might be undestandable based on your difficult past, that doesn't mean you aren't sick. After somebody raped and tried to murder me, I developed a compulsion to mutilate myself (that I still struggle with). Understandable under the circumstances? Maybe, but that still doesn't make it normal or healthy.

Stop making excuses and find a way to get the serious help you need. You are acting like a masochist.

Renee,

I responded to your message on fb. Sorry it took so long.

Sandi running late, but I wanted to say as far as the different opinions go. I did not mean about not contacting him. I meant about treating him nicely. Some say nice some say he deserves it.
Sorry I will post later got to go to Church.

Renee

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I don't think the issue at this point is about "him". I don't think you should be wondering how you should treat him. I believe you should work hard to not think about him at all. Don't be concerned about "his" feelings and how he should be treated or if he's truly happy. This needs to be about "you", can you see that?

As far as the things in your past, I read something in a book this morning that made me think of you. This was written from a doctor which said that everybody is touched by the events of their past (either by another person or a particular situation), but it is up to the indiviudal to go forward and make their decisions in life....not based on what has happened in the past....but on what they can do for themselves to have a better future. I don't have the book in front of me, so that is not a quote, but close.

I believe that is what all of us have tried to tell you. As your stitch has progressed, we have been able to tell that your clinginess to your XH is far from healthy and his mistreatment of you (no matter what his reasons) should not be tolerated. So, basically, as I see it.....you are receiving the same advice, just in different wording.

Some may speak in a more gentle way and some may get very rough in their posts, but I think it is their attempt in trying to make you wake up and see reality. That is all any of us on the board can do, but the decision to change your life is completely up to you. I strongly suggest, again, that you not listen to people who are family & friends but that you get your survival information from the DB board. Family & friends are too close to the stitch and "personalities" tend to get involved.

If you ever truly reach the point that you have "dropped the rope", then you won't stay focused on your XH. You won't be fretting over these "details" of life where he is concerned. You will have peach and feel free as a bird. When (and only when) you are able to reach that level, then (and only then) will you be able to hear about him and your emotions not react and you will not feel anything one way or the other toward him. You can truly said, unemotionally, that you wish him well.....and that is as far as you take it b/c frankly, that is as far as your feelings for him will go. That is probably hard for you to imagine at this point & time, but it does happen, Renee, and it can happen if you will put forth the hard effort to get there.

Anyway, I feel that I'm saying the same thing, so I'll stop for now.

Hope you have a good day,
Sandi

ahhh......I meant to say "peace"...not peach.

How are you doing Renee? I have you on my mind much more than you realize. When I read something in a book or hear a program that has to do with relationships, you are about the first person I think of. I want you to get better. You are worth fighting to have a good future. You have a great chance at being happy and I think that is why some of us are being tough on you b/c we want to see you fight for yourself and the peace that is due you.

Talk to you later. Have a good day.

Sandi

Sandi thank you once again.
I know many here care.
I am doing really good. Our church as been having homecoming and we have had some good services. I was really blessed last night and expect to be tonight also.
I am NOT giving up on my faith, but while waiting on GOD to move, I am going on with my life.
I am busy getting together my stuff to start college in August.
I am doing things with friends.
My son has cooperated the last few days. He did what I asked around the house and has had a better attitude. I have been praying for him too, I know he is suffering from the divorce in his own way. He hasnt gotten a job yet and that is our next goal.
I also have been offered a second job at a Christian Bookstore and I am looking into that.
As always I dont have much time to write.lol I always seem to say that. I will try to write more tonight when I get home.
I do appreciate you more than you know. Sometimes we need the bluntness to help us along in our situations.
Sandi, I would love to post all my threads, so I can re-read them myself, but dont know how. Can you assist me with that?

Off the subject of me...it was so sad to hear of Michael Jackson's passing along with Farrah Fawcett. I grew up in that era and its so sad. Did you hear about it on the news? I also believe Ed Mcmahn (Dont know how he spells his last name)also passed away. Such sadness.

Anyway, I will write more later
Have a blessed day!

Renee

Congrats on your new job!

May God place all kinds of interesting people in your path.

As far as MJ, I am shocked that so many are "shocked" by his passing. I am shocked he made it to 50 y.o.

He was a great talent and I loved his music. He just got too weird for my taste after the Thriller period.

I like the tone of your last post much better! The job in the book store is just what you need.

MJ and I are/were the same age. God, I feel old.

Thanks guys.
I have been feeling much better these last few days.
NO TIME for a pity party in my life.

Now, that's a post that sounds 100% better! If you are so busy with positive steps in your life that you don't have time to post.....that's great!!

I'm very glad to hear about you going to church and being blessed with a renewed strength. Does your son go also? I can tell you that prayer can change life!

Talk to you later,
Sandi

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...686#Post1675686

This is the link to your first post.

You can also click on "My Stuff" on the menu at the top of the posting form and then scroll down to "posts" and find all the ones you've written. The last number listed is the beginning and works back to number one. Hope that makes sense. It's hard to explain on a keyboard. (lol)

Well the past few days have been good. Church was so wonderful.
I was feeling pretty good about life THEN I woke up this morning and my whole day was a mess...well most of it.
I should have expected the devil to rear his angry head. I rebuked him and trudged onward.
Nevertheless I delt with a few things.
I was leaving for work and I decided to let my son drop me off so he could use my car to get himself something to eat. He has been doing what I asked so I thought well I never leave him a car, so maybe I will leave it for him today.
First of all he begins by saying guess what mom...of course I say what?...dad and gf won a fishing tournament last night.
He started going into details about how much they won and yada yada yada. First time I heard of my xh fishing other than the one other time. Anyway, I just let my son talk. I didnt want to NOT let him speak about his dad, even if it included gf. He was excited about the story and said he wish he would have went with dad when he asked him first.
I went onto work and got out...1 min. late!
I then continued with my day, trying to smile and be in a good mood, regardless of the "wonderful story" I got from son. (sorry to sound bitter).
I got through a few fews when a "young" employee that works with me, decided she didnt like what I said and we ended up in the Mgrs. office. No big deal, just something else to SMILE about.
Then comes lunch time and I call my son to ask him to bring me something to work and he says he cant talk he is with his dad and gf at gf's family cookout. I am thinking that I hope he is not in MY CAR at her familys house. (I know bitter again).
Anyway son's phone wouldnt connect so I didnt get to ask where MY CAR was.
Later, at time for son to pick me up, he calls and says...

Son: "Mom can you get a ride home"
Me: "Why?"
Son: "Can you?" (asking again)
Me: "Who is with you?"
Son: "I am with dad", "can you get a ride"
Me: "Where is my car?"
Son: "It is home, I can drop it off out front if I have too" (sounding like it is a conveinence). I am spending the night with dad tonight and watching the race with him on tv tomorrow.
Me: "Well, I need my car here"
Son: "Do I have too?", "I need to know now",(dad or gf mumbles in background)
Me: "I said, forget it, I will get a ride"
Son: "Well, thank you, I guess"

At this point, I think I would have walked home before I would have asked either one of them to do anything for me.
I know I am bitter and hurt, but I cant help it.
It seems like son is always going out of his way to please his dad...to the point of even asking me to find a ride home because he didnt want to put his dad out by having him follow him to bring my car to me.
If this was me, son would of probably insisted on me droping his dads car off. This is just what I feel.
Also, when son is home during race day he watches it in his room. He will NOT come downstairs and watch it with me.
BUT, he will watch it with his dad and gf.
I am just hurt today.

Praying tommorrow will be better!
Renee

Don't let him borrow the car anymore, I guess. Sorry you had such a crappy day. Hang in there.

... and Lewis this is where the rubber hits the road, this is where the learning begins.

We get the respect we demand.

This car/work/dad experience is a great anicdote for you to pull apart and think about your contribution to and what you can do to change your behaviour so it doesn't happen to you anymore.

First - you claim son respects dad, but not you. Why do you think that is?

I've got a couple of suggestions - but I'd like you to think about it first and reply.

Second - you gave son your car today - and the outcome was that you were really inconvenienced. What do you think should be the consequence of that? Do you think it's OK your son let you down? How are you going to manage that with him?

Finally - I know the feelings you were having when your son told you that story about fishing. I know you felt jealous, left out, sad, depressed, angry etc, etc. I know because I've felt all those things myself. But here's the thing I'd like you to think about. What if, when son told you that story, you listened to him then filed it in the back of your heart to deal with at another time. Or better yet, tried to imagine the story was about some people you barely know?

You see, you gave that story so much power over you you gave it credit for ruining your whole day. That's not good girl. The things that influence your day should be things you can control - not second hand stories about people's who's lives shouldn't affect yours.

I look forward to hearing what you think about the respect thing. Tell me what you think ....

Virginia as for the respect, I believe this has been happening for awhile. It is my own fault and I just hate to admit it.
His dad was the one who had the bluff in. When xh displined son, he always come crying to me and I would talk to xh and talk him right out of the boundaries he had set. I mostly did this because I didnt agree with the cussing and yelling that was usually accompied by his punishment. If xh would have just punished him without the cussing and yelling, I think I may have looked at it differently. BUT I think I felt as thought xh was being too harsh on my son. My xh could have a heart of steel if he wanted to. He never lost a winks sleep over punishing our son or even when fighting with me. He could always go right to sleep. NOT ME.
I think also that the respect he gives xh NOW is related to son thinking and worrying about xh "abanding him like he abandoned me". Son will NOT ask for anything from his dad. He will say to me this is our problem NOT dads, he does not live here. If we were starving, son would say dont bother dad with it. I think the fact that my son is afraid to speak his feeling is soooo sad.

AND the fishing story did not ruin my whole day. There was much more added to it that ruined it.

I wanted to ask this simple question. (That I probably have asked before, so I am sorry in advance if I have)........

Why cant men and women just be "unhappy" in their marriage. Why does it always have to be MLC.
My xh asked me this once and to tell the truth I really didnt know what to say.

Ok got to lay down now, looking foreard to Church this morning.

Everyone Have A Blessed Day!

Renee

Renee, your XH is NOT IN MLC..... Get over it, move on, forget it..... Nothing more need be said....... Until you are willing to do this, nothing will change......

Sun

My sons are adults now, and they still will not do anything they think will put their dad out. It is so sad...because they're following the same path that xh did growing up with his dad.

They will use/abuse us because they figure 'mom' is 'safe'...she'll love and nuture us regardless.

There are things going on in my sons life right now that I won't get into, and one of them has actually had to ask his dad for a favor...didn't have any choice. But I heard s say the other night that he 'tries not to get in his dad's way any more than necessary' What does that tell you about how they think????

It's nothing to expect mom to be there rain or shine, and put up with immature and irresponsible behavior at times, but NEVER, NEVER let the WA Parent be put out or know that they're in trouble or need help!!!

I'm at the point now that I know I'm going to have to make a very hard decision in dealing with one of the boys..and I honestly don't know what's going to happen between him and I. I don't want to permanently damage our relationship, but I know I have to set boundaries and then enforce them..

It has to do with my own survival...financially and emotionally.
I'm not doing him any favors by protecting him and his actions..just the opposite. But it's going to be h@ll doing it..that I know. It's not something that runs in my nature. But I also know that I let people walk over me too easily, and that part of me has changed over the last few years.

As far as your son and the car...he was given the use of the car to go out and get something to eat. Not to drive over to his dads house. It was also in the agreement that he come pick you up after work. No ifs ands or buts about it. Since he can't keep his end of the bargain, and wants to change it midstream to suit his wants/his dads...no more use of the car until he realizes it is a privelege not a right to use YOUR car. You gave in this time. Do NOT do that again!!!! Believe me..you set yourself up in this pattern with him, and you'll be so, so sorry down the road.

Make him tow the line now.......not later. Nip this type of behavior in the butt now!!

Quote:

Why cant men and women just be "unhappy" in their marriage. Why does it always have to be MLC.

Are you implying that you would rather be M to him and be unhappy in that MR than be D?

I do not believe it always has to be a MLC! Not sure where you came up with the idea that every time a couple S or D that there is a MLC involved.

Renee, I believe you spend way too much energy thinking about this type of issues........like the question you asked. What good does it do you? It will not change your stitch. It will not change the reality of your life as a D woman. I feel that you are still draging up things in the past too much for your mental welfare. For example, the way your XH disciplined your son. I agree with you that he did not do it correctly,but it is done and it can't be undone. So, why go through this over and over again? I'm talking about for "your" sake....not ours.

I don't blame you for feeling upset toward your son. He showed how unreliable he is and how childish he is when it comes to his dad. I can understand that R, also. But, there is no excuse for him treating you the way he did about the car. He does need to suffer the consequenses of not being allowed to use it again until he proves he can be trusted. I may differ from some others about this, but I don't know that I would sit there and listen to his story about your XH and GF. That is showing a lot of disrespect for your feelings. Anybody that was his age should know you are extremely hurt over what his dad did and to talk to "you" about his dad's fishing with GF is so uncalled for. I think the next time, I would hold up my hand and stop him and tell him that you do not care to hear about what your XH and live-in GF does. And tell him that it is disrespectful to his mother. Apparently, he needs to have this pointed out to him. Why should you have to endure hearing about your XH & GF? Some day when you are detached and at the place it does not bother you.....it may not matter, but I still think it is disrespectful for your son to talk to you about it.

You will have a spiritual battle to deal with since you are involved in Church and have been blessed recently. The "enemy" will try to discourage you and stop you from growing. "Discouragement" is the number one tool used to stop Christians from growing. Be on guard and realize when issues at work (like what happened) will happen and you need to handle it as one who has victory and not one who is defeated. You can handle your personal life the same way. The "One" who is in you is greater than he that is in the world!

Take care,
Sandi

Originally Posted By: braveheart

Renee, your XH is NOT IN MLC..... Get over it, move on, forget it..... Nothing more need be said....... Until you are willing to do this, nothing will change......

Braveheart I DID NOT SAY MY XH WAS IN MLC!
I was simply asking a question. AND the reason was, so many people on here talk about MLC and it seems most people want to BELIEVE or assume the WAS is in MLC.
Why is it you want to assume I mean the worst? Really.
I know I questioned it in the past, but before you get "rude" with me sir, please ask me what I meant if you have to.
Nothing more needs to be said.lol

Hugs,
Renee

Are you implying that you would rather be M to him and be unhappy in that MR than be D?

No not at all Sandi.
I was just asking, because, like I told Braveheart, so many people on this board believe that their WAS are in MLC. As I said my xh asked me once "couldnt someone just be unhappy" and I didnt know what to say. I was just asking the same question. It doesnt always have to be MLC does it? I mean I believe if a marriage isnt having any MAJOR problems, and one spouse left, yes it could be MLC, especially if the signs follow. BUT if there are ongoing problems then NO its probably not MLC or WAS or anything like that. Just my opinion. Do you agree with me or am I wrong.
Sandi, I am not discussing the above to figure out if xh is in MLC. I was just thinking about all the stories on here and how so many WANT it to be MLC, because they think the spouse will snap out of it...I did. I dont know if my xh is or not, but it doesnt matter anymore. He is gone for now or always, who knows? Nobody except the GOOD LORD ABOVE.

For example, the way your XH disciplined your son. I agree with you that he did not do it correctly,but it is done and it can't be undone. So, why go through this over and over again? I'm talking about for "your" sake....not ours.

The main reason for talking about this is to get your opinion and to except my own fault in this.
I did not stand behind my xh when he displined him and I should of, BUT I was trying to explain why I didnt. I simply didnt agree with the way he went about it. SO IN TURN, my son thinks he can run over me, because I took up for him in the past.
I also didnt know I discussed this before. I told you that I could not remember what I have talked about and what I haven't.
I really need to re-read my threads.

I don't know that I would sit there and listen to his story about your XH and GF. That is showing a lot of disrespect for your feelings. Anybody that was his age should know you are extremely hurt over what his dad did and to talk to "you" about his dad's fishing with GF is so uncalled for.

Sandi, I agree with you but I dont want son to think he cant talk about his dad with me. If that includes gf, then I will just have to deal with it. He was excited about his dad winning the tournment, and he was regretting that he didnt go instead of gf.
Yes he SHOULD know it hurts me, but honestly I dont think he does. I have tried to explain to him how hurt I am about what his dad did and he will not hear it. So I dont force him to talk about it. Sandi, my son is somewhat inmature for his age.
For example, when his dad told him he was engaged and getting married to gf, my son told me and said to me. Mom you should be proud of dad, it has to be hard for him to get remarried so soon. I could not believe that he said that. Ever since then, I just let him talk. One day he will see.
He will say things about dad and gf and then say, mom dont let it bother you and dont tell dad I told you. Which I dont tell xh. BUT it does bother me. Not as much anymore.

You will have a spiritual battle to deal with since you are involved in Church and have been blessed recently.

Yes I do. I should have expected it.
Someone at Church told me to NOT give up on praying for my family. They also said some other things. My faith was renewed and then the first things I heard was the story from my son about xh. THEN went to work and delt with other stuff. I didnt mention it but also heard another story about my xh cheating. So I should have known the devil would stike again.
I am holding my head up high and moving forward regardless.

The "One" who is in you is greater than he that is in the world!

AMEN!

Thank You Sandi,
Hugs,
Renee

Originally Posted By: sunshinelewis

Originally Posted By: braveheart

Renee, your XH is NOT IN MLC..... Get over it, move on, forget it..... Nothing more need be said....... Until you are willing to do this, nothing will change......

I'm just trying to help you, sometimes "tough love" is best Renee. This is going to take you out if you don't get a handle on this!

Okay, now I understand better about the question regarding MLC and no, I sure don't believe it has to MLC. It is just that it is so common these days and here on the board. I do believe that people can have enough troubles in a MR that they are looking for an escape. There are certainly more reasons for a S/D than MLC. Maybe it would help you to have closure if you understood the "whys" of the breakdown of the M, and if I were a professional, I might be able to help you, but the bottom line is that in the end, you have to accept it for what it is......a divorce. Thrashing out the past doesn't change the status now.

I know you want your son to talk about his dad. He should be able to do that with you, however, he is old enough to understand that he should not discuss with you the "good times" dad and GF have. That is what I meant by telling him that you do not care to hear about his dad's live-in GF. If you must tell him that it is painful, then do so. Don't allow him to say snide remarks about your feelings, etc. He needs to learn about human relationships and things people go through when they have been hurt badly.

I think kids play their parents against each other if they can. Especially when the parents have a different approach in discipline or if that kid knows mamma will step in and take up for him. Just b/c he's grown doesn't mean he has stopped doing that. I believe it has developed into just a pattern of behavior for him that he does it automatically. It is obvious he is starved for his dad's approval and his time, so you will need to mental prepare yourself for him gushing over spending time with them. I would explain to him that you have no problem with him spending time over there, but you don't want to be treated like you were with the car and you don't want to hear about.......whatever bothers you. Don't do this at a time when the emotions are running high.....wait until things are calm and you can speak with him in a soft tone of voice. You need his undivided attention and don't try to discuss it when he's on the computer, etc.

Quote:

mom dont let it bother you and dont tell dad I told you

He clearly has a need to discuss it with somebody he can trust. Does he have a close pal he hangs out with?

Renee, I want to encourage you to get into a daily Bible study if you can. If your church does not provide it, the Internet has wonderful web sites that have Bible topic studies or daily devotionals. You need that spiritual food each day to have you be strong.

Talk to you later. BTW, try to be patient with us here on the board if we misunderstand a question you have. I often find it hard to type into words what I truly mean. It's easy for it not to come through like you mean. We work together, right?

Take care,
Sandi

P.S. I wouldn't worry about going back to read all your posts just b/c you brought up something before. Hey, I do that all the time. I probably am the worst about repeating something I've said.

"Mom, you should be proud of dad... for getting married so soon...?!"

There is something funny going on here, Renee. Maybe your X and his GF encouraged your S to put this nasty little bug in your ear. At the very least, they are filling his head full of self-serving sh!t. Nothing you can do about that, but that doesn't mean you have to listen to it. Next time your S comes up with something like that, tell him emphatically you don't want to hear it.

Don't let him borrow the car again until he straightens up.

Maybe it would help you to have closure if you understood the "whys" of the breakdown of the M.

Sandi I agree. That is what I am trying to do, that is why I talk so much about the past and our marriage. That is also why I was wondering, at one point, if it was MLC. He said so much that is "script". Just because he wanted a divorce so soon doesnt mean he HAS TO BE a WAS. Right? (You dont have to answer that if you dont want to, I dont want to drag that subject up again.)
Sometimes things cross my mind and I have to wonder what in the world was he thinking. I dont spend my day consumed by him, I just do that on here.lol
When we were sep. but still living together, I said to him one day, "I guess I will go out and try to find me a place to live", he replied, "Do you care to look for me a place too? and then said quickly, NO I am sorry, I have no right to ask you to do that. I was thinking what?????? He was talking to me like a little boy, so pitiful, wanting ME (like his mother) to find him a home.
Enough about my xh. I have another question and need your opinion. (or anybody reading this).

There is a guy that I would love to go out to dinner with. Nothing but dinner and talk. He has been working in the same store with me during our remodel.
Someone told him I was interested and shortly after he walked by and spoke to me. Tonight he walked by and I said something to him and he stopped and we talked for a bit. I only met him a couple days ago, but I feel so comfortable talking to him and he is always so nice.
Well tonight after work I got brave. I wont see him for a couple days probably so I decided that I would give him my number.
I pulled him aside by hisself and told him that this was the first time "ever" that I had been this forward. I told him that I had heard that he had just went through a divorce and I also had. I said to him, here is my number in case you want to talk. He said that it had been a hard divorce and he hadnt dated in a year, and it got lonely. I told him I havent either and I know what you mean about being lonely. He talked a bit more about his divorce and so forth. He said to be honest, I am having trouble with trust. I told him it didnt have to be a date and we could just go out to dinner and talk. He took my number and said thank you and I appreciate it. Then he said well I better get back to work.
My question is:
Should I have approached him in the first place?
Do you think it was his nice way of saying "I am not interested"?

I havent dated in so long, I honestly cant tell.

Hugs,
Renee

Renee, I am VERY PROUD of you! Good for you!!! Just because you spoke to a guy and gave him your phone number doesn't mean you are jumping back into a R. It means that you are starting to let go, meet other people, and put things behind you!! One step at a time and this was a big one!

He probably is leary about getting into a R anytime soon. Some men think "all" women are out looking for a serious committment. It would be easy to "rebound" for both of you but as long as you watch your emotions in that department, I think going out with somebody would be great. But now that you've made the first step, wait for him to make the next and ask you out. You don't need to pursue the next step. If he doesn't ask, then don't take it personally......he just got burned really bad and isn't ready to go out with a woman, yet. Hopefully, he is and the two of you will enjoy a nice date.

Your XH may not be in MLC but he definately "was" and "is" a walk-away husband......b/c that is what he did....right? So, you can eliminate that quesion from the list. However, as we've discussed in the past....the MLC & WAS is so close in symptoms, that I think some may put too much emphasis on it. Just accept the end results as they are and don't try to put in a catergory.

Talk to you later. Have a good day.

Sandi

You can't have too many friends!

Good for you!
you two have a common bond and thats how a lot of friendships start , and you decide if its more in the future.

I'm w/ Andabelle, nothing wrong w/ a new friend!

Thank You MR. BRAVEHEART! Coming from you, that means alot.

I so hope he asks me to dinner. I am soooo afraid of rejection.
He said he appreciated it and thank you.
It didnt sound like he took it as "maybe we can go out, kinda thing". He just said I appreciate it. Sounded like I was doing him a favor or something.
So I dont know, we will see.
Did I mention he was younger than me.lol

Renee

Well, hey....."younger".....that's a good sign of self-confidence working there! You go, girl!

I can understand why you would fear rejection after what you have been through, but remember that he probably fears it worse than you! Since we think of it being "traditional" for men to ask the women out on a date, those coming out of a painful divorce might shy away. Don't let it discourage you if he doesn't ask right away. He may not be to the "place" you are, yet. If he sounded as if you were doing him a favor......hummmmm, he may be feeling bad about himself. You may be the lady who can pick his spirits up again! I bet it would be good for his ego to know you were interested in him. And, it sure is good for the woman's ego for a younger guy to want to go out with her.

Talk to you later,
Sandi

Well he still hasnt called to ask me out.

If he wasnt "kinda" interested would he have come over to speak to me AFTER someone told him I was interested? I took that as a good sign.
Maybe I should ask him out, ya think? I dont know, I am new at this.
I have been off work, so I havent seen him in a few days.
For some reason, I dont think he will call. He just seemed to be like "ummm...well ok, I appreciated it", not very promising.

UPDATE ON SON:

Well I had to call the police and have son removed to his dad's house.
It started like this...
Son said "Mom dad has 2 questions for ya"
"I said ok"
Son said, "Dad wants to know if you are going to sale the sea doo (watercraft toy) and to tell you he got a letter on the house"
"I said, tell him to call me and let me know what the letter said."
Son said, "Dad says NO he isnt calling and DO NOT call him"
"I say, ok well ask him what it said"
Son said, "NOPE I am done talking, I dont want to be in middle"
I said, "Dad put you in the middle, not me"
Son said, "Go away, I am done talking" (I was standing outside his bedroom door and he wouldnt open it.
This made me upset.
I said, "OPEN THIS DOOR"
We argued back and forth and finally I KICKED THE DOOR IN!
I had had enought, couldnt take it anymore.
We argued and of course he was on the phone with dad the whole time complaining. I struggled to grab the phone and he hit me. I dont know if it was intentional or on purpose.
I called my cop friend to come and remove him and talk to him.
Son is living with dad now. He is VERY upset with me.
This broke my heart.
I was on the front porch waiting on son to leave and he came out and said, "Mom dad isnt coming to get me until you go inside"
I said, "Well too bad, because this is my house and I AM NOT GOING INSIDE TIL I AM READY."
I am tired of being pushed around and this was just plain childish.
His dad pulled up and I took the chance to ask him for my letter.
My xh said, "IT IS NOT YOUR LETTER, IT WAS SENT TO ME!" and pulled off.
This was the MOST childish thing I have ever witnessed.
Never in my life, have I seen a grown man act this way.
Of course his gf was driving...I didnt care, it didnt bother me in the least. I walked right down my driveway and right up to their car and asked for the letter. They do NOT scare me and I am tired of not standing up for myself.
I have made decisions and I am sorry, but I have to stick by them.

Now some of you will probably say that I should not of approached xh or I should not of done this in front of son, but oh well, I have had enough.
I lost my mom
I lost my h
I lost my son (not really, but I feel like I have)
I lost my home
I am at the end of my rope.

My xh told me I was going to die alone and maybe I will but I will die in peace hopefully.

Hugs,
Renee

Sun

I'm so sorry your son baited you into this confrontation, but I think it's a good thing that he spends sometime with his dad. Nothing like living on the other side of la-la land to figure out it wasn't so bad where you were before.

And to be honest, I think you could use sometime to yourself...peace and quiet...to plot the direction you're going to take. I don't know if I've ever had that peace and quiet since the bomb was dropped so long ago. It's just seemed to be one bad thing after another. I think my health is starting to pay the price for that now..so many years later.

I had/have losses one right after another too

Dad died
H changed jobs, which ultimately changed him and our family
Grandma died
Grandpa died
Both uncles died
Family friend died
Bomb
Lost the marriage
Lost the house
Lost any sense of security/family there was before
This year, lost another family friend in an accident
And I'll soon be losing my daughter in law...son told her he wanted out after 7 years of marriage. (Yes, it's a generational curse! This will be about the 5th generation in a row on Hs side where the H divorced the wife)

I think you sound much stronger, Sun. It's hard to learn how to stand up for yourself..all over again. But you sound like you have the spunk to do it.

Creed thank you for taking the time to post to me.
Yes our son sometimes says things that makes his dad angry at me.
I think son is so confused that sometimes he doesnt know what to say. I feel sorry for him in that respect. He is so afraid of losing his dad forever that he will go to any length to please him, including hurting me. Why? I think because he feels safe with me and he knows I would never leave him. I hug him, I kiss him and tell him constantly how much I love and care about him.
I try to never say anything bad about his dad. In fact, I tell him I love his dad and his dad is just being overtook by the devil right now.
I miss my son soooooo much not being in the house. A couple of times I almost forgot he was gone.
My son told me today, mom this might be what I needed. It might be what GOD wanted. I have to grow up sometime.
Son has a good head on his shoulders and can be sooo very smart.
BUT every now and then his dads attitude shows and its not nice.

Someone told me today, Renee your xh has not changed. You are just now seeing him for the way he treated others. He said I saw a side of him nobody else did, and now I am seeing what everyone else sees. He is probably right.
My xh did walk away, (I will give you that braveheart), BUT I believe he is having a crisis and at midlife. No one will make be believe any different. I know this doesnt mean he will come back someday, but I do believe its a crisis, too much has happened. Braveheart says because he divorced me so quick it wasnt, but I believe different. Sorry braveheart

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I believe you are 50% right.

............it doesnt matter, he is gone for now or always.

Snodderly I checked out "The Script".....very interesting and sounds just like my xh.

Still havent been asked out.

Hugs,
Renee

Renee, first good for you on a couple of points! It is your house and your rules! Stand by your guns with son! Make him stay with his dad for awhile, let him worry about a few things! Second, I also agree with you about the letter about the house thing, if it was important, he should have at least mailed it to you. As far as me being right about your H being a MLCer or WAS, well Renee, I am wrong a lot, if you think he is in MLC, then maybe he is. You know him much better than I do.

Quote:

Still havent been asked out. frown

zero expectations Renee` dont look for it.

son and xh deserve each other right now. I wouldnt be in a big hurry to let son come home either

what about your poor nephew??????

At least now your X can't dodge paying for your S's stuff...