Man, lately I've been trying to sort my own head out. Divorce is a sure thing, I've been through some emotional ups and downs. And I've gone from 'DB Guru' to 'How many times can I put my foot in my mouth?' when posting to people.
It's like I've lost that grounded part of me. I'm spinning a little and thought I'm a lot less in the dumps, I'm still in it.
W and I don't live in the same house any longer. D18 lives with me, D13 with W in a small apt. D13 comes over often because she doesn't like having to deal with W's Boyfriend of 9 months.
I keep working to GAL, make some money, save my house. The upside is that business is improving, and I'm pretty much 'over' W. Just sad, that's all. It helps that we don't talk much.
As it is now, she is financially bad off. I pay most of the big bills like car insurance, cell phones, other common 'family' things. She uses our joint checking account to shop for food for her and D13 and I make sure there's a good amount of money in it.
Time to work out the financials soon. Should be able to divorce by June.
I'm trying to balance supporting her decisions, and not rescuing her. But I can understand how hard it's been for us to be together given all of our individual problems.
Frank, you're sounding MUCH stronger than you did when you last had your own thread! Divorce is not an easy thing....and,it shouldn't be. I'm sorry that that seems to be the direction you are headed. I know you fought it for a long time.
It is much easier to come to terms and start dealing with things when you are living it separate homes. I'm sorry to hear that D13 is living with her mom now. But, I'm glad to hear that she is spending time with you and at your house.
It's cool that you are helping your wife out financially the way you are. I am guessing that the fact that your daughter is living with her has a large part to do with that...just don't make things too easy for her. (I'm sorry if that sounded harsh...I say that based on MY personal opinion that far too often the WAS has it so much easier than the LBS.)
Anyway, it was good to hear from you, Frank! Keep your head up and look ahead!!
Best of wishes,
Deb
Hi Frank -
Good to hear from you again. I hope the financial aspect of the divorce can be kept amicable without 2 lawyers going back and forth.
I agree with Deb, dont try to go out of your way to help your STBXW too much. Doing less things with her can sure help for you to move forward. The past is done and you have your whole future ahead.
Did the fires get anywhere near your area?
Good to hear from you again. I hope the financial aspect of the divorce can be kept amicable without 2 lawyers going back and forth.
It can, we don't have much to fight over.
I agree with Deb, dont try to go out of your way to help your STBXW too much. Doing less things with her can sure help for you to move forward. The past is done and you have your whole future ahead.
Yes, this is all true. We are very amicable when we do talk. LIfe is settling down to 'routine'.
Did the fires get anywhere near your area?
No, I live about 40 miles from them.
Frank, you're sounding MUCH stronger than you did when you last had your own thread! Divorce is not an easy thing....and,it shouldn't be. I'm sorry that that seems to be the direction you are headed. I know you fought it for a long time.
Actually, I didn't fight. actually I withdrew into my anger. Anger at not feeling supported, and at drinking again, anger at her bailing again after all the pain I endured last time.
I latched on the the "don't be too nice to her" advice and it made things worse. I was a hurting man who needed her support. She was a hurting woman who needed me to support her emotionally.
It was a no-win scenario. As I kept living in my conflict, and the conflicting advice I got her I slowly spiraled downwards. Lost the respect of my kids due to drinking. Got in verbal arguments with W when she moved back in to the house because she was still 'dating'.
Finally in March things broke. She left, took D13 with her. Convinced the girls I was 'unsafe'. D18 hated me for about a month. I had gone from being the 'sane' one to being the 'broken' one. Too much hurt and pressure.
The only person who made sense in their posts to me, in hindsight, was 25yearsmlc who could see the hurt on both sides.
It's taken a while but things are stable. The kids are starting to respect me and feel better. I was at my emotional bottom a few weeks ago and now I'm reaching that point of acceptance in life - that my W wasn't a person who could help me or the family. Only I could do that. That's the roles we took on.
It's cool that you are helping your wife out financially the way you are. I am guessing that the fact that your daughter is living with her has a large part to do with that...just don't make things too easy for her. (I'm sorry if that sounded harsh...I say that based on MY personal opinion that far too often the WAS has it so much easier than the LBS.)
D13 living there has a lot to do with it. But, I also feel an obligation to do what I can. She doesn't have anywhere the earning power I have and our financial status is mostly my fault. She has her BF and she's struggling but she seems happier to not have to deal with my issues any more.
So, sometimes you have to do the 'right thing' whether you want to or not.
D18 avoids her BF, and D13 is exposed to him but doesn't like him. My counselor says we were both codependent and very often one person will have affairs rather than leave the relationship, or fix it. OM is just another fix it. Like Alcohol was for me.
I regret my role in all this and I don't see it as salvagable in any way. I did a great job of DB'ing 3 years ago except it was for the wrong reason. Because we didn't properly 'piece', instead I 'courted', I didn't get my needs met. The cycle repeated and I turned into a drunk again. Except this time our financial lives and business lives were much much worse. I needed help but didn't get it.
Anyway, it was good to hear from you, Frank! Keep your head up and look ahead!!
Thanks, I will.
Hey Frank....
I think you should go back and reread a lot of the posts that you received for a very long time. It seems to me that a lot of people were giving you some very sound advice that you just were not ready to hear.
I hope everything is going well for you......Haven't heard from you in a long time.
Ian
I think you should go back and reread a lot of the posts that you received for a very long time. It seems to me that a lot of people were giving you some very sound advice that you just were not ready to hear.
I hope everything is going well for you......Haven't heard from you in a long time.
Ian
I totally agree. I'm in a different place, not angry, not trying to 'control'
I need to start over.
Thanks Ian.
and a lot of people did give me sound advice. It was in the wrong context, yet sound.
I'm out of 'anger'. Looking for serenity. Not reconciliation. Just serenity.
thanks Ian.
and a lot of people did give me sound advice. It was in the wrong context, yet sound.
What I mean is that the advice didn't take into account how messed up I was emotionally at the time. I don't think even I realized how bad it was.
The advice I got was great, it was just that I was in no position to act on it because of my own issues. I valued everyones input. Thank you Ian, Jack, 25yrsmlc, AmyC, KerryK, FIB, etc, etc,
Frank -
Do you think you are broken or disillusioned about someday having another relationship? Are you looking forward to dating?
Frank -
Do you think you are broken or disillusioned about someday having another relationship?
I think I am broken. Eventually I'll be fixed. I have good counseling and I know what's wrong now.
Are you looking forward to dating?
no.
I have to put my Shepherd down on Wednesday because she can't walk any more and falls down the stairs. She has been a good dog for 16 years. I hate this part of life.
She was my kids protector and has never bitten any human in her life. She fought bobcats at our old house and got skunked twice but never complained. On some nights she would run with the coyotes in the avocado ranch that was behind our house in the country.
It's hard to believe someone would dump her at the dog pound where we found her because she had too much of an adventuresome spirit.
She is so scared. When I carry her up the stairs she shakes because she is afraid that the 'alpha dog' isn't going to protect her.
STBXW came by and used her 'psychic' powers to determine that Diamond is ready to go, but is worried about me and D13 being ok.
STBXW didn't cry or show much sadness. I guess it's just me. I'm too sensitive.
She really did fight with bobcats, as well as one really ornery Possum who ran up a slanted tree, and Diamond followed it, fought with it (they don't always play dead) and shook it out of the tree. She hated the norwegian rats who ate out fruit trees and would catch them , shake them up and present them to us as 'gifts'.
Still though, her desire ... Read Moreto run with the coyotes who were howling on full moons was her greatest fun.
I think they thought she was one of them, even though she was a little bigger. She still smelled bad because she liked to roll in mud and stuff. so that made her a 'big coyot
Oh Frank, I am so sorry. This is the hardest part making that decision, but it is your final gift to Diamond hard as it is.
I have been through this several times and it doesn't get easier I know.
I always have the vet come to me and it lessons the trauma for them.
After 16years you will have so many happy memories of her,be thankful she was in your life.
Maybe plant a tree in one of her favourite spots.
((((())))
It's at times like this where you reflect on the good and bad in your life. For a long time on this board I did a lot of 'good'. I'm proud of that, At the time I felt strong. I had 'DB'ed my marriage and was a 'success'.
Except that I wasn't. I had just 'fixed' it, brought it back to the previous status where I carried the load for every problem. Alone.
I isolated, drank too much in the evening and ran away emotionally. W did what she always did. Withdraw, complain, give token 'support'.
After the bomb in 01/08 when I was already as far down as I thought I could ever be I fell farther. For the next year we went through several 'phases'. Anger. Friendly, Anger, sad. She had one EA and finally a PA that continues today.
Me, well I just stayed 'stuck'. In a pain I couldn't handle any more. Up until a couple months ago I stayed there. Medicating to send it away for a few hours.
A lot of people gave me a lot of advice that I couldn't act upon. I got angry and judgemental. Picked fights with a couple men on the board and even though I apologized I still feel ashamed at how much I had fallen.
I'm not sure which friends I've alienated. I don't want to put anyone on the spot by asking. So, for anyone I've hurt or insulted, please accept my sincere amends.
Moving on, I'm working on getting past the anger in my life. Forgiving STBXW and forgiving myself.
Putting Diamond down today at 5 will suck, but she'll be no longer suffering.
Frank, I am sorry to hear about you having to lose your faithful family dog today. I remember taking my 15 year old German Sheperd/Siberean Husky to the vet a few years ago because she suddenly loss the use of her back legs and was in severe pain. I remember how scared she was and the vets reassured me that what I was doing was the best. I spent a lot of my single years doing all kind of outdoor activities with my dog and I still miss that to this day. Just know that you gave Diamond a wonderful life to live as a dog.
Sounds like Diamond had a bit of "the call of the wild" in her just like my Kelsy did. I can still vividly recall the hunting instinct when encountering Nutria, Ferrets, Squirrels, Marmots, Porcupine (Kelsy lost) and an Elk herd.
Cherish the memories.
Well said Frank,just keep moving on with it.
I had my dog to vets today, don't think I will be too far be hind you with the decision making. I thought I had longer.
I am not ready for this,so I am clutching at straws and trying different meds.
I am so sorry for you. I hope it goes as well as it can.
(((())))
Sorry to hear about Diamond Frank. I had to put my sons cat down just before D because he got diabetes and lost 22 lbs. He did weigh 40. Then just months later our big alaskan malamute followed with the needle.
It sucks but the memories are great. Stories are shared more now. Kind of healing.
cire
The past week she was unable to walk, and even to sit in front of her food bowl to eat. We decided a few days ago that she needed release from her pain.
I spoon fed her today, a whole can of dog food as she was starving. Around 5 pm PDT We all took her to the vet's to put her down. STBXW, D18, D13, Me and D18s boyfriend.
She was so happy to have us all together and paying attention to her. The vet is a kind man who let us all pet her while she was on the table. At the end she was happy we were all there and she passed in seconds after the injection in her main vein. She was scared and trembling a little but was calmed when we reassured her she would be in a better place soon.
She was a good dog, had a great life with us and we'll miss her greatly. D13 is taking it the hardest but we're all proud that we were able to have her wild spirit in our lives.
thanks,
frank
Frank... I'm so sorry to hear about your dog Diamond...I too had to go through that, and want you to know that may prayers are with you.
Take care xx
Hey Ian,
Just like your daughter, D13 is wearing her dog tags on a necklace today. She said every time someone asked her at school why, she would cry.
When she was here after school, she used my scribe pen to etch an epitath on the back:
1992 - 2009 Rest in peace.
She has always been the one with the big heart.
So many of us have dealt with the same thing, so sorry Frank.
When the quality of life deteriorates it is time...
For you and your family-
Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....
Author unknown...
I'm sorry about your sweet doggie. I lost 2 last year, and am looking at losing another 2 in the very near future (one has terminal cancer and the other is 16). I know how hard it is, but you gave her a wonderful life. Would that all dog parents were like you...
I'm sorry about your sweet doggie. I lost 2 last year, and am looking at losing another 2 in the very near future (one has terminal cancer and the other is 16). I know how hard it is, but you gave her a wonderful life. Would that all dog parents were like you...
so yesterday I moved my home office from the 'box' I built in the garage to the spare bedroom upstairs. It was hard to do, as it was CHANGE.
I built the 'box' a few years so STBXW could have the spare room do do massages in. It feels good to have a window and fresh air.
Been doing what needs to be done to keep my head straight and GAL. I realize now how much of my life has been a struggle of trying to control everything around me instead of just letting go. And of course, trying to get through the hurt with 'medication' didn't help.
I've made some new friends and getting out more, slowly. Losing the anger.
Last week when we put out dog down, STBX looked at me with a lot of sadness. There was something more than just the loss of our dog.
The next day she came by to pick up D13 after school as she had to go to an awards ceremony for middle school, which STBXW and I also went to to see D13 receive an award.
She asked me if I had a memory card for her camera as she didn't know what had happened to it. I gave her one and told her that she needed to 'format it' before she could use it. She gave me the 'deer in the headlights' look and I told her how to do it. She looked at D13 who said "I'll do it for you mom".
Now, in the past I probably would have said something like "Come on, it's not that hard. Geeze". Instead I just smiled and said nothing. Part of the past was that I didn't respect her because she's not 'like me'. I think that is a big lesson I had to learn. We both have big lessons to learn in life.
We arrived at the school at different times and I didn't see where she was sitting when I came in and sat somewhere else.
After it was over, I went to one of the exit doors and she happened to arrive at the same door when I was there. I saw her and gave a polite smile. She smiled back with her 'you noticed me' smile and winked at me. Kind of flirty. No idea what she was thinking, just a 'reaction' I guess.
We met up with D13 and after a few minutes I gave D13 a hug and said goodbye and STBX asked me if I wanted to walk them to the car. So I did and walked with D13. Got to their car, gave D13 a hug and said goodbye.
It doesn't mean anything other than we're getting along, and I'm healing.
Frank,
I've been out of touch. Feel free to call me anytime.
--Theoden
How are things going?
Well, 17 months since the bomb. I was already an emotional wreck before the bomb, and her actions, 2 affairs and other crazy stuff fueled my low self esteem and I withdrew further into the bottle.
That's the truth.
After she decided to move back into the house but was still going to stay 'friends' with OM back in March it lasted a week till I blew up and lost it with her. Since then I've been slowly trying to heal myself. Going to AA to shake the cycle of pain and suffering and starting to feel better.
STBX and I rarely talk. For a while we were angry at each other so she or I would be very defensive. Every couple months she reminds me about 'our divorce' and asks me to do something so the documentation lady can write it up. I usually ignore her or tell her it's her divorce and she should write what she thinks she can agree to and present it to me.
Her last 'thing' was that she want's me to take all the debt that is in my name, she'll take what's in her name and I get to pay all the back taxes. And I pay her and the girls health insurance and pay her $200/month child support for D13. As she said "It was your job to pay the taxes. I took care of your kids and listened to you talk about how this next business project was going to work".
I asked her why she didn't get a job until after she left me and she said "You didn't ask me to".
I decided none of this is worth fighting over and agreed.
Of course, nothing has been put in writing.
Things seem to have changed somewhat since this discussion a couple weeks ago. She's more friendly around me instead of 'put off'. I also decided to stop being angry. What's the point anyway?
Last weekend she came by to pick up D13 who had been staying with me most of the week. She was going to have her stay with her for the weekend. She asked if she could take our Beagle Dog overnight and I said that would be great.
The next day she came by to drop him off in the morning. D13 was with her but instead of having D13 bring him in, she came to the door herself. She was happy and went on to tell me that they took him to the pet store and he picked out a toy. A long cylindrical fuzzy green thing.
She said they called it the 'Fuzzy Pen1s'.
Ok, so I replied that it was a bad idea to teach him to chew on things like that because he might get confused if he jumps into my bed at night. She laughed and made a counter joke and we went back and forth. She had to go, I said goodbye and she left. Weird.
Next day was her birthday. I gave D18 a card to give her that said "I hope you celebrate this day. You've touched many lives and raised great children. With love, Frank"
D18 did give it to her, but told me that she didn't open it while she was there. The next day I got a text from her saying 'Thank you for the bday card and the kind words. I really appreciate it'
A couple days later she called for something and brought up the 'fuzzy xxx' and we had a laugh. Strange that she makes these sexual references.
Friday she came by in the evening to pick up D13. She came into the house instead of calling D13 on the phone. D13 grabbed her stuff and wlaked by me and out the door. I said to STBX "Gee, no goodbye, no hug! Just out the door"
STBX said "Aww, do you need a hug?". I paused and said "Yeah that would be nice" and hugged her. How weird.
STBX called me yesterday and left a voice mail to tell me that she got mail from the health care company that the insurance was going to be canceled because I hadn't paid it. Her tone of voice seemed like she was annoyed at me.
I called back and left a polite voice mail telling her that they are mailing the bills to her, so I can't pay them if I don't see them. I also mentioned that she seemed upset but I could understand how this would upset her.
She called back and apologized repeatedly for sounding upset with me. (?????) She said she'd make sure I got the bills and please don't be mad at her. (????) I said that I wasn't and that we'll work this out. Told her to have a good day.
This week she is taking D13 to Seattle to visit STBX's mom. D13 told me that OM is going with them and that they are staying at a campground part way to save money. D13 says she refuses to sleep in the tent and will sleep in the car.
STBX has not mentioned OM is going. If I ask about the trip she avoids details. On the advice of others, I have asked her for the names of places where she is staying the night. I am also going to ask her OM's full name since I do not know him and she is making D13 (who doesn't like him at all) spend 5 days with him.
As far as OM, D18 has said that he is harmless, kind of a woose. A mutual friend who has met him said he was "Like a bird with a broken wing. In fact if someone didn't tell him he had to breath to be alive he might stop". Someone STBX can control I guess.
It hurts a little that I am being 'replaced' so easily. I think the recent 'nice attitude' from STBX is a reaction to me being less angry. And I've dropped the rope and am trying to move on with my life.
Anyway, financially I'm ruined but that's my own fault. I've also realized that neither STBX and I understood how to make a marriage work and we weren't partners. I was 'dad' and she was 'daughter'. I took care of everything and when I couldn't, she got scared and left for attention from OM.
I believe I'll grow from this and my counselor has been very encouraging. I still love STBX, we're just not able to live together.
That's it.
Frank, When she flirts, flirt back.
Frank, When she flirts, flirt back.
Why? She's just trying to make it 'ok' for her to be doing what she's done so she doesn't have to feel guilty.
Remember, everything is my fault and she's justified in her actions.
Except...
She hasn't old me OM is going on the trip with her. D13 told me.
Hi Frank -
Good to hear you are moving on. Sorry about the financial ruin, but you have the ability to rebuild.
It sounds like you dont need to be too concerned about the OM much as he is a spineless worm that can be controlled by your STBXW. It sucks that your D13 despises him. That in itself does not sound like a good way to start a trip.
If your W is not telling you about OM going on the trip, then that is just another thing she is being sneaky about. Let her continue to be sneaky as it is not worth pointing out to her. I think as long as you can be friendly with your STBXW then it will allow for the two of you to move on through the divorce with minimal pain.
It sounds like you dont need to be too concerned about the OM much as he is a spineless worm that can be controlled by your STBXW. It sucks that your D13 despises him. That in itself does not sound like a good way to start a trip.
If your W is not telling you about OM going on the trip, then that is just another thing she is being sneaky about. Let her continue to be sneaky as it is not worth pointing out to her. I think as long as you can be friendly with your STBXW then it will allow for the two of you to move on through the divorce with minimal pain.
Yeah, She's been with him almost a year and the kids are used to putting up with him. D13 is the one who has to deal with him the most and she just ignores him when he's around. D18 just doesn't go to her moms place very often, and when she does OM isn't there.
I don't think she is being 'sneaky'. For some reason she won't tell me directly she is doing things with him. Yet she told me months ago I needed to 'get used to her having a boyfriend'. Is that weird or what? She hasn't 'introduced' him to any family members. Her mom will be the first, and is the only one who supports her decisions to leave me because she did a similar thing to her dad 20 years ago.
And of course, she supports her daughter who has suffered so much being with me because of my depression and drinking issues. It's funny how everyone forgets the good parts. Oh well.
It has been a difficult few days. STBX, OM and D13 are off on a 10 day 'vacation' in Oregon. They are camping and working their way to Seattle to visit STBX mom. Her mom doesn't seem to have a problem with her daughters 'boyfriend' while we are still married. After all, I didn't take good care of her daughter and she is entitled to be 'happy'.
D13 really doesn't like OM. So this is kind of bad for her having to be stuck in the car with them with no escape. Whenever I text her she has nothing positive to say.
As for me, it hurts to think that there will be no family vacations. I could sure use one.
It's so weird to think that there is nobody I know who has anything positive to say about OM, other than he's 'harmless' and will do whatever STBX says. Both of them seem to have the same maturity level.
I don't know what hope I've been hanging on to. This trip is the wake up I need to tell me it's over. STBX wants us to be friends and sometimes when I see her she gives me that smile that she used to give. That's the thing that puts me off guard.
I'm sure inside she still loves me in some way. This just hurts and I've stayed still for too long. There is no hope anymore. Time to really move on.
What I meant was 'there is no hope for STBX and I'. There is plenty of hope for my life.
D13 called me to talk. I asked her if everyone was getting along. She said 'no'.
Sucks to be her. I wish I could do something.
...there is nobody I know who has anything positive to say about OM, other than he's 'harmless' and will do whatever STBX says. Both of them seem to have the same maturity level.
Frank I feel as if you're reading my life story.
My X's OM (now husband) is described as a "jerk" or "jackass".
He often waits on her hand and foot (I've witnessed it) and even irons things for her.
Yep, they are both very juvenile.
DO NOT LET ANY OF THAT FOOL YOU. IF THE SAME AS MY X'S SITCH SHE WILL MARRY HIM.
He ain't harmless.
Frank I feel as if you're reading my life story.
My X's OM (now husband) is described as a "jerk" or "jackass".
He often waits on her hand and foot (I've witnessed it) and even irons things for her.
Yep, they are both very juvenile.
DO NOT LET ANY OF THAT FOOL YOU. IF THE SAME AS MY X'S SITCH SHE WILL MARRY HIM.
He ain't harmless.
I feel for you, been following your thread.
He's what I call a 'man-boy'. Kind of one step from 'gay'.
By 'harmless' I mean he's safe around my kid.
As far as her getting married, why bother? She can have what she wants without marriage. OM doesn't have much money or much of a job. Soooo, she doesn't get any improvement to her lifestyle.
The reality is that obsessing over her, being her 'friend' is BS. Being a real man and setting boundaries is the right solution. She can have her dork man. He will never be me.
So, after a lot of thinking and realizing that by not responding to any of her 'do it yourself' divorce requests I'm just trying to control her. That's stupid.
She isn't asking for anything beyond not being responsible for our back taxes and back mortgage. I keep the house (if I can) and all the contents. She just want's some of the kitchen appliance that I wouldn't use anyway.
No alimony, $200 child support for D13, Pay monthly health care for kids and her. I'd end up paying the taxes and such anyway since she barely makes ends meet.
Pretty good deal given the circumstances.
So I called her and asked her to give me a list of paperwork I need to submit so we can get them filed by end of August.
She seemed surprised, and said "So you're ready to get this done?" and I just said sure, just find out what we need to do.
She said she'd call our documentation person and find out. I told her I wanted to close the joint checking account and just write her a check each month. She said that was ok.
Then I said she should come by tonight or tomorrow while D18 and D13 are out of town and take the things she wants. She wanted to come tonight around 7:30 or so and I said that wold be fine, I won't be here anyway. Take what she wants. I've already left some boxes in the living room.
She wanted to leave a list and I told her not to bother.
Regarding her trip, I spoke to her Brother who lives near her mom. He said that OM was a spineless person who had no opinions on anything, and when he did talk he mumbled a lot. He did whatever she told him to do. Said STBX 'hung all over him like a teenager' and told her mom many times how happy she is now.
We'll see. Regardless I'm done. She's been with OM for a year. Time to get this done.
Frank,
I don't know much, but I think I know this much at least.
It's damned difficult to take a boat out to sea while you're still tethered to the dock.
And I like the analogy because this is NOT about admitting defeat, anymore than it is admitting defeat to untie your boat from the dock. It's all about giving yourself the ability to get out and explore, to be free to see what wonderful things are still in store for you.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure your wife is still as messed up in her overall thinking as before. But, for now at least, she's still happy to be living in her alternate reality. I don't know what the future holds in store for her and I'm not interested in predicting, except to say that in 47 years of life I don't see any precedence for her current path being one that leads to eternal bliss. In the end I think you know she has to travel this road and see where it leads all on her own.
Those of us who have gotten to know you a little bit thru this site know that you're a man rich in gifts and who has learned lots of useful and valuable lessons in all you've been thru. It's time to allow yourself to bear the fruit from those lessons and enjoy being Frank again.
I think the decisions you've expressed in that post are great ones. And they will most definitely help you to untie your boat from the dock.
Blessings,
Bill
Bworl,
Your response is right on target. That's exactly why I'm doing this. Been too busy not letting go to learn what's good for ME.
Another note: She called me yesterday to tell me she had 'lost' her cell phone. Then said it had probably been run over by a car. I asked her 'which is it?'. She was flustered about it.
Anyway, I kept our previous phones and I still had mine that was about a year old. I offered her it and she was then able to get it activated and was extremely happy and grateful.
I'm still a decent guy.
Came home tonight and was kind of surprised that she hadn't taken very much. No kitchen appliances that were kind of 'hers'. Just the rest of the clothes from her closet, some xmas decorations and some cd's. A couple knick knacks.
She texted me later to let me know she hadn't gotten to the Kitchen stuff.
I wonder if she cried.
Well anyway she called me this morning seeming fine and telling me that she wanted to come by later to go through the kitchen stuff.
I told her to come whenever she wants and take what she wants. I would say my tone was one of disinterest. I feel like I'm being coordial, but may be coming across as annoyed. She is starting to seem like she's afraid I'm mad at her. Well, I'm not, just tired of her.
She called me later to tell me she got a massage scheduled so she couldn't come by tonight. That's good - she needs the money.
I cooked a really good dinner for my daughters tonight. I need to do this more often.
God is working in my life. I can feel it.
Hey Frank,
Glad to see you are working your way out of limbo. I've learned something recently that might help. Our society, family heritage, media, etc have conditioned us, especially men, to rely upon other people(lovers, spouses, parents, etc.) to determine our own self worth. This is a falacy, doomed to failure, and we are doomed to fail. It is impossible, yet it's the only way we know.
The truth is that we alone hold the power to make ourselves whole, to love ourselves, encourage, support, empower, and affirm our own value. God created us for love, and the first step is to love ones own self, just as we are, just as God loves us, thoroughly, deeply, and unconditionally. When we have achieved the self love that we were born to hold, then we will recognize the love that is in all else.
Take care Frank, you're struggle is an inspiration to many.
Love,
COG
The truth is that we alone hold the power to make ourselves whole, to love ourselves, encourage, support, empower, and affirm our own value. God created us for love, and the first step is to love ones own self, just as we are, just as God loves us, thoroughly, deeply, and unconditionally. When we have achieved the self love that we were born to hold, then we will recognize the love that is in all else.
Take care Frank, you're struggle is an inspiration to many.
Love,
COG
I agree wholeheartedly with this.
thanks
Hiya FrankD. I've stopped by your thread to check in on you.
I know it's quite belated, but my heart goes out to you over losing your shepherd. They're different than the regular dogs. 16 is incredibly old, surely she lived on love alone by then. I had one that made it to 15. I've waited 16 yrs for another and just got her this spring. I've had 2 other dogs in the interum, and as much as I've loved and enjoyed them, they are dogs. A shepherd is more.
I am glad you've moved your office. I remember when you made it a place for your w to do massage. I would've bet money that your situation was going to work out. I thought you'd succesfully pieced yrs ago. Well, life has other plans. Interesting how many layers we must learn.
Realistically, I wasn't whole. And one person can't carry a relationship when they themselves aren't truly whole. No matter how much energy they can expend, ultimately they burn out if the other person is only taking, and not really giving.
There is no blame when it's clear that we were very different in our views of what love and relationship really are.
I agree, there are a lot of layers to learn.
Hey frank,
just letting you know I came by...
K
Hey frank,
just letting you know I came by...
K
Thanks.
Had some discussions about various things last week. My life is changing. I am tired of the status quo.
My counselor said that STBX doesn't know what she wants. Most people who want a divorce get all their ducks in a row from the beginning. STBX has done things slowly - usually after I withdraw. For example, she took her cell phone off the plan after 6 months apart.
Last week, she finally got off the car insurance and called me to let me know, saying "So your bill will go down and you'll save money". Like she's doing ME a favor. She said that she knew I had asked her to do this 3 months ago 'so at least something is done'.
Counselor says she does this to hurt me, because she knows that each step she takes towards divorce has historically knocked me off balance and I've drank. So she can justify her actions by blaming me.
I don't do that any more. I stay calm and have a 'whatever' attitude.
I only talk to STBX maybe once a week. I never call her, I send a text.
Counselor said she's still not 'done' with me. But I need to break the cycle we've been living and get the divorce done. She also suggests I not take her calls because I need to 'cut the leash' once and for all.
If she calls, she can leave a message. If it's 'informational' I don't need to reply. If it's a request I can IM or call back if needed.
I've learned about me that I have two major issues to overcome. First, I don't trust men and I've been disconnected from the fellowship of men because of that. I've been working really hard to trust my sponsor and he's really been good for me.
Second, I feel like I need to keep pleasing women or they won't approve of me. I picked a woman who has 'daddy issues' and kept trying to please her even when I was the one needing support. I have forgiven her affair(s) because I am a kind and loving person and can see she is sick also.
So, I am working on re-kindling the warrior in me, to break this cycle we have gone through and either we will grow together, or apart.
Regardless, I will grow beyond all this.
That was the mistake I made in DB 3 years ago. I failed to finish my growth.
STBX tells people how happy she is with her life. Often.
I tell people I'm working on being better at life. Being the warrior again. The world has been living without frank_d for too long.
Frank,
You sound better.
Sounds like you are doing some reading in No More Mr. Nice Guy.
--Alan
Not so much as I have been working on my own issues. Something that has taken way too long.
See, the other mistake I made 3 years ago in my 'successful' DBing and bringing my W back then was that I didn't address the underlying issues that caused my alcoholism.
I had stayed sober for a year and we reconciled. But 18 months later we were back to square 1. I felt unsupported, was drinking at night and W bailed on me again. This time it was worse.
It's taken me a while to get to the place where I am working on my issues, alcoholism and other things. I'm not perfect and I am doing the best I can.
The paralegal we have doing or divorce commented to me today that 'you both seem to care about what happens to the other person'.
Too bad it's not enough to keep our family and us together.
You are sounding like you have taken control of your life. I like "The Warriors Quest" attitude.
If you have a chance, your excellent advice may be helpful for K4D (Kevin) over in newcomers...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804393He has had problems with alcohol and seems to have some trouble letting go and working on himself.
Frank,
I highly recommend, Wild at Heart , by John Eldridge.
It is right up the alley to what you are thinking lately.
I think you'll find it challenging.
Blessings,
Bill
Frank,
I highly recommend, Wild at Heart , by John Eldridge.
It is right up the alley to what you are thinking lately.
I think you'll find it challenging.
Blessings,
Bill
I have it. This is almost like 'Groundhog Day'. 3+ years ago I did the same things, except this time I 'get it'.
weird
Frank,
I want to point something out and seriously I am not being an ass when I do, soemthing I want to convey because I think it is important.
Over the course of the last several years, you pointed out your mistakes in the past, but rather than point them out and move on, you dwelt on them. It was like you flogged yourself over and over again and you were unable to move past those mistakes and almost like you wanted people to point out how horrible of a person you were. Self mutilation.
Frank,
Figure out the mistake, do your best to avoid it, but live for today and tomorrow. 3 Years ago was a different Frank, as was 2 years ago as was a month ago.
We all sucked three years ago. And hell I'm better today than yesterday, even Mach if he were here and not banned would agree.
As should you.
Do not fall into this pattern again.
Yeah?
Over the course of the last several years, you pointed out your mistakes in the past, but rather than point them out and move on, you dwelt on them. It was like you flogged yourself over and over again and you were unable to move past those mistakes and almost like you wanted people to point out how horrible of a person you were. Self mutilation.
Frank,
Figure out the mistake, do your best to avoid it, but live for today and tomorrow. 3 Years ago was a different Frank, as was 2 years ago as was a month ago.
We all sucked three years ago. And hell I'm better today than yesterday, even Mach if he were here and not banned would agree.
As should you.
Do not fall into this pattern again.
Yeah?
I'm breaking the pattern. That is a goal. I AM much better today than I was 3 years ago - or even 3 weeks ago.
Thanks Jack.
The biggest thing I have learned is that I like to be of service to others. I took that away from myself. Now I'm taking it back.
You can come and clean my kitchen floor Frank, that would be an incredible act of service.
I am still sick...blech!
You can come and clean my kitchen floor Frank, that would be an incredible act of service.
I am still sick...blech!
Especially since I'm on the west coast and you're on the east coast! Hope you feel better.
Today I'm working on depression with D14. She called me to pick her up from school at 8 am because she 'felt like throwing up'. This is code speak for 'something is bothering me and I just want to go isolate'.
The school nurse made me take her home. She wanted to go to her moms apt where she usually lives. However, on weekdays she come to the house after school and I saw no reason to let her go isolate.
So, she's here and just depressed. I've been taking with her trying to cheer her up but I also have to work.
I am guessing that it's just the whole family situation, the OM, and everything else. I'm doing the best I can to be there but I think she just needs some space and consistency.
I've started posting again because I need support in the 'GAL' part of DB'ing. I have no hope that the divorce won't happen but I do have hope that I can turn my own life around.
So, I'm posting my own trials and I will include occasional 'events' with STBX only to get others insights into what goes on.
Jack once said "you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved". Well I did stay stuck in that hole longer than necessary. I pissed off a bunch of people and dug a deeper hole of despair for myself.
I'm done flogging myself. Now I'm working on my life.
Good for you, Frank! Let us know how it goes...
STBX insight #1 your wife is crazy.
STBX insight #2 see insight #1.
Frank I believe in you.
More doing, less talking about the doing.
Frank, I seem to recall that you once had quite the active outdoor life. Have you considered getting back into some of that (maybe minus the dangerous parasail)? I took up golf shortly after the bomb and it sure is a fun and challenging sport.
STBX insight #1 your wife is crazy.
STBX insight #2 see insight #1.
Frank I believe in you.
More doing, less talking about the doing.
Yeah, and I think that keeping my communications with her to a minimum helps me a lot. I'm angry. I've lost 2 more years of my life and I don't want to lose any more.
I may have made some mistakes, but I've been faithful to my family no matter what.
So, the warrior returns.
Frank, I seem to recall that you once had quite the active outdoor life. Have you considered getting back into some of that (maybe minus the dangerous parasail)? I took up golf shortly after the bomb and it sure is a fun and challenging sport.
Yes, absolutely. My Paraglider is for sale on Craig's list. Really can't do the dangerous sports because life insurance won't pay out on them and my girls need their dad.
I almost bought one myself once for flying off mountains that I climbed. But I did some more research and found that there were a high percentage of broken bones that occur duing take off. It looks kind of like flying a kleenex.
But now there are these kite boarders that just blow my mind when I watch what they do in the Columbia River gorge by flying out over land from the water.
Broken bone = memory of a lifetime...even if it is short.
I almost bought one myself once for flying off mountains that I climbed. But I did some more research and found that there were a high percentage of broken bones that occur duing take off. It looks kind of like flying a kleenex.
It's a lot safer than it looks.
Frank,
Got a plan you might want to share with us for your GAL activities? What is the program for re-kindling your warrior's quest?
Peace,
Alan
Lately I have been making sure I get out ouf the house at least twice a day and hang out with some new guy friends I've made. It's just not isolating that helps me a lot.
I'm also walking more and starting to hike more again.
I do my best not to talk to STBX. I don't answer her calls instead letting her leave a message. If the message is 'information' I don't call back. If it's a question I reply via text message.
When she comes to pick up D14 she usually waits in the car for her. For some reason yesterday she came to the door and rang the doorbell.
Forget her though. I'm spending more time with my daughters and we're doing our best to enjoy the life we have.
So, this morning STBX texts me this:
"D14 forgot her keys this morning. She is expecting a package today at your house".
Why do I need to know this?
Oh, and another thing. Her brother told me that STBX told her mother that OM (been with for a year now) is just "Someone for now..."
And that's all I'm going to say about her.
I am trying buddy...I'm trying. But someone keeps posting about her
I am trying buddy...I'm trying. But someone keeps posting about her
Some fool!
Hi Frank
You and I have been at this for a very similar amount of time. I remember reading you all those years ago and wondering how on earth you could be so amazingly collected to get DBing so right, when your world was crumbling around you.
I never really got DBing, in terms of fixing my marriage, right - but over time - and without my X in my life - I did get me right.
I have always thought of you as such a strong and compassionate man - and never posted to you because I felt you just had it all over me and there is no way I could offer you any advice or support.
Recently, particularly since the last separation from your wife, I've watched you go quiet (a telling sign of depression)and beat yourself up in a way that I don't think you would do to your most incompetent subordinate.
Frank, I've found the secret to all this for me is to be kind to myself. In life, people like you (and I like to think me) get everything 'right'. When it's not working, we read a book or take a pill or have a drink and figure out a way to MAKE it work.
As you now know this is all out of your control.
When you finally accept you can't avoid the discomfort and pain and you can't fix it - the only way out of it is to feel every uncomfortable and distressing part of it - and walk thorugh it anyway. GAL is a good way to distract yourself from the pain - but it's no substitute for accepting it, feeling it and coming out the other end.
I drank heavily at the start of all this. My X was a heavy drinker too. I'm now working in a remote Aboriginal Community in Northern Australia that is Dry. 100km to the nearest grog (that's Australian for alcohol)and I drink very rarely.
You know I don't even think about drinking much anymore and when I do go into town and mix with urban people and have a drink I don't enjoy it nearly as much as I used to.
This is a journey my fellow traveller - and I've come to think it has far more to do with our personal journey than our marriages.
You are on that wave now and you are going to be great.
Life looks a lot brighter from this end of our journey, trust me.
Take care fellow traveller.
V
Thank you Virginia, you were right on in your reading of my depression. I'm on the 'up' side now and slowly regaining my self respect. Thanks for the advice.
When you finally accept you can't avoid the discomfort and pain and you can't fix it - the only way out of it is to feel every uncomfortable and distressing part of it - and walk through it anyway. GAL is a good way to distract yourself from the pain - but it's no substitute for accepting it, feeling it and coming out the other end.
I re-read this and just wanted to internalize this comment. This is what healing is all about. Feeling the pain and letting it go.
BrandNewDay asked me if I was still 'standing' for my marriage.
I am standing back and allowing it to end, much like Sleeper has done. It's only by letting it all go that it has any possibility of starting over some day.
25yearsmlc told a story of her relatives who got divorced and after having other relationships and being nothing more than 'civil' were able to see they could be together once they had grown. This took 5 years.
Is that 'standing' or simply leaving the door open to possibilities while living your life?
BND, we don't really have a definition for 'standing'. My definition that works for me is simply this: I know in my heart I can't love someone else right now. I also know that I am enabling my STBX just as Sleeper is and in ANY situation that is not healthy.
You know that old saying, "If you love something set it free..."
I have set mine free. Whatever happens next will be because God chooses it.
I have set mine free.
Whatever happens next will be because God chooses it.
Dont forget about free will.
I have set mine free.
Whatever happens next will be because God chooses it.
Dont forget about free will.
I never forget that. I'll let him choose for me only.
frank,
Don't know about "free will" but pop over to my thread. I realized what "standing" is.
I'm gonna have to work on that "free will" thing and let you know what I come up with.
frank,
Don't know about "free will" but pop over to my thread. I realized what "standing" is.
I'm gonna have to work on that "free will" thing and let you know what I come up with.
You and me Sleeper. We're on the same quest. It's not 'standing' as in sitting around waiting. It's 'standing till we know it's over'. Only WE can break the cycle. And that's the real challenge. Will us breaking the cycle change them, or will they fail to grow?
Only time will tell.
Today I wrote an awesome program to send twitters out to 'followers' when certain events happen in you main user account.
I feel good that I can use my gifts to do these things (and get paid) In about 30 days there will be a new service for facebook and twitter users that will be announced that I am building now.
That's cool.
The program thing...very cool.
It's not 'standing' as in sitting around waiting. It's 'standing till we know it's over'. Only WE can break the cycle. And that's the real challenge. Will us breaking the cycle change them, or will they fail to grow?
This is awesome. Just what I needed today.
You should be proud of yourself on more than one level ^.^
The program thing...very cool.
This is awesome. Just what I needed today.
You should be proud of yourself on more than one level ^.^
Thank you Grace. I am far from working it right. All I have learned it that 'wrong' doesn't work.
At least you know when something isn't working. I still slip back sometimes (into what doesn't work) and I'm getting much better at spotting it quickly and saying <with a smile and possibly a wink> "working on that". If I never get great at it, I'm ok with that. Givin' it my best. You are too.
Out of the blue STBX called me yesterday because, she said, she felt compelled to let me know that she appreciates all the time I spent with her teaching her how to use a computer. Said that she knows it was hard for me to be patient because she was afraid she couldn't learn how to make brochures, use e-mail and other things to promote her massage business.
She said she's grateful I didn't give up on her because now she is very comfortable doing these things.
I really didn't know what to say, so I remembered what BrandNewDay told me the other day, that they are often looking for approval or some other kind of positive response, so I thanked her for her comments.
Today D14 stayed home from school for a 'mental health' day. I called STBX and asked her what's up as D14 seemed pretty upbeat yesterday. STBX said she was asked to write something about herself for a school project in English class and she could only think about the divorce and related things. So she decided to write about her dog Diamond (the one we put to sleep recently) and what a great dog she was. STBX said D14 cried herself to sleep last night.
STBX said that it's hard for the kids to deal with divorce and it will just take time. No sadness in her voice.
One good thing is she's going to go to Al Anon and take the girls. I told her that was a great idea. I'm hoping that she might see her role in that situation. I already see mine.
I look at these things as positives. Healing steps. This is a turning point. Where it takes us is not for me to know right now but healing is a good thing regardless of the end of the marriage.
I spent a great time with D14 yesterday. Things are improving a lot with our relationship and it feels good. She's into Transformers comics now so we went to a cool comic store to get some new ones she had to have so she can have bragging rights with her friends.
Going for a camping sleepover up in the mountains with D14 as she has no school tomorrow. We're going to arrive before sunset, enjoy the night stars and come back in the morning as I have work I have to do. It'll be fun, just the two of us.
Sounds like fun, Frank!! I hope you have an AWESOME time!!
May you see plenty of shooting stars
I love to star gaze.
Well, D14 decided she was too tired to go. Sigh. Still a nice night here in southern California.
Out of the blue STBX called me yesterday because, she said, she felt compelled to let me know that she appreciates all the time I spent with her teaching her how to use a computer. Said that she knows it was hard for me to be patient because she was afraid she couldn't learn how to make brochures, use e-mail and other things to promote her massage business.
She said she's grateful I didn't give up on her because now she is very comfortable doing these things.
I really didn't know what to say, so I remembered what BrandNewDay told me the other day, that they are often looking for approval or some other kind of positive response, so I thanked her for her comments. Then I said Good Bye
I was talking to a friend about this peculiar phone call I posted about. We were both agreeing that one doesn't make a call to thank their ex for teaching them how to use computers and programs for desktop publishing 'out of the blue'.
How many times do you feel 'compelled' to call someone to thank them for something they did for you 3 years ago?
Especially someone you are divorcing, and painting a picture of a 'poor alcoholic you couldn't live with and now you're so much happier with OM' to anyone who will listen?
Moment of clarity? Or more likely she was having trouble with one of those programs and wanted to call me to help her but realized later she couldn't because I wouldn't help her any more.
It's just bizarre.
Visualize how you want your life to be regardless of the actions of others.
Out of the blue STBX called me yesterday because, she said, she felt compelled to let me know that she appreciates all the time I spent with her teaching her how to use a computer. Said that she knows it was hard for me to be patient because she was afraid she couldn't learn how to make brochures, use e-mail and other things to promote her massage business.
She said she's grateful I didn't give up on her because now she is very comfortable doing these things.
I really didn't know what to say, so I remembered what BrandNewDay told me the other day, that they are often looking for approval or some other kind of positive response, so I thanked her for her comments. Then I said Good Bye
I was talking to a friend about this peculiar phone call I posted about. We were both agreeing that one doesn't make a call to thank their ex for teaching them how to use computers and programs for desktop publishing 'out of the blue'.
How many times do you feel 'compelled' to call someone to thank them for something they did for you 3 years ago?
Especially someone you are divorcing, and painting a picture of a 'poor alcoholic you couldn't live with and now you're so much happier with OM' to anyone who will listen?
Moment of clarity? Or more likely she was having trouble with one of those programs and wanted to call me to help her but realized later she couldn't because I wouldn't help her any more.
It's just bizarre.
The list includes my alcoholic ex.
Perhaps it's just good old-fashioned gratitude, Frank.
Better late than never, I say.
In the last 3-5 years I can't tell you the number of people I've called to thank for things I didn't fully appreciate in years past.
The list includes my alcoholic ex.
Perhaps it's just good old-fashioned gratitude, Frank.
Better late than never, I say.
Yeah, it's just weird how it comes up out of nowhere.
Another note. I still pay the health insurance for STBX, D14 and D18 because if I didn't they wouldn't have any. I am glad to do it.
Today, I sent STBX some forms to fill out to change the policy to a higher deductible and other mods to save money up front. It's a good deal since we don't get sick much and if we do, I end up with the deductible payment so she is not burdened.
Under 'marital status' she checked 'single'. Well, we're married still and that constitutes fraud. ANd in case you haven't been following the news, the insurance companies are cancelling policies because someone failed to say they had hurt their knee 10 years ago now they need knee surgery so they try to claim it is an 'existing condition'.
So, I texted STBX and said "When you check 'single' on applications that is fraud and if they catch it they can deny future coverage. I will do everything in my power to get you divorced before the end of October. Until then please stay within the law."
She replied "Ok". I sent her a 'thank you'.
All I have to do is get the financial statement done and she will be free. She just keeps doing these foolish things for whatever reason. She tells everyone she is divorced. I'm hurrying as best I can to get her divorced so I can be done with this cycle.
In the last 3-5 years I can't tell you the number of people I've called to thank for things I didn't fully appreciate in years past.
The list includes my alcoholic ex.
Perhaps it's just good old-fashioned gratitude, Frank.
Better late than never, I say.
Have you figured out what the unfinished business you have is?
Ask God. He knows.
My business is concluding nicely, Frank.
My business is concluding nicely, Frank.
Cool, I am glad to hear that.
I don't know if it's still MLC with STBX. My counselor still thinks it's a combination of a lot of things.
One thing that is clear is that in spite of everything that has happened with my drinking and her MLC / adultery, my daughters still treat me with respect and treat their mom like she is a 17 year old. I listen to D14 talk to her on the phone and cut her off in the middle of the conversation with 'bye mom, ok mom, bye'.
She never talks to me that way.
I feel sad for her, for all of us. As one of my friends in AA said to me the other day, "You are quite the pair".
I have been continuing my 'dark' mode. If she calls I don't answer but let it go to voicemail. If I need to respond I'll text or call her back. Mostly I don't need to respond as she is just informing me of something. Now she texts me more instead of calling or has D14 call me for related things.
The other day I had to go get some insurance papers from her at her condo. I avoid going there as it's uncomfortable. She gave me a neutral 'Hello Frank' and I asked her for the papers, thanks her and left.
Everyone who I know who gives me counsel has said the same thing. Let her go, avoid contact and work on your own life. So that's what I'm doing.
It's interesting that only STBX's mother blames me for everything. "If Frank hadn't started drinking then STBX wouldn't have gone elsewhere for love" or something like that.
Other friends / relatives as what she did to contribute to the problem, and what did she do to help. It's a mixed bag between those who value the sanctity of marriage and those who don't. Regardless it's just excuses that we each can hide behind to justify our choices.
I don't have any excuses. Just shock that after STBX had an affair 3 years ago, and I stopped drinking for a year and put my heart and soul into rescuing our family that in the end she just wasn't a person who could put her heart and soul into us. and I needed that. I needed help.
I'm finally done with all that victimization, just venting it here for the last time. Like Jack said, sometimes someone doesn't want to be saved. They just give up. Well, I've always been someone who thought I didn't need help. That's been my biggest lesson. Accepting help. And letting go.
Frank,
I want to express that this could be taken 1 of several ways.
And that the way I don't want you taking it is mean spirited.
OK?
What is different this time?
What is different this time?
I don't hold any of this against her. I let other men help me through my feelings rather than drink and isolate. Only men can help other men.
I don't 'go dark' to get a result or to be mean. I do it for myself because I'm too reactive to her, that gives her control whether she wants it or not. I want control of my feelings, to won them instead of let them be created by others.
That's different.
Ah, went for a nice dinner with D14 tonight. She got to wear her
Organization XIII Cloak around town tonight with me ($100 well spent!). We had a nice time talking video game lore and other important topics.
Later this evening D18 and I went for one of our drives around the countryside like we used to do. She remarked to me that October is starting out to be a better month than any we've had for quite a while. I agree with her.
Times are changing.
Frank - you need to get one of them there "CHANGE" bumper stickers
Come gather round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
Youll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin
Then you better start swimmin
Or youll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance wont come again
And dont speak too soon
For the wheels still in spin
And theres no tellin who
That its namin.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Dont stand in the doorway
Dont block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
Theres a battle outside
And it is ragin.
Itll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And dont criticize
What you cant understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin.
Please get out of the new one
If you cant lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin.
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin.
Frank - you need to get one of them there "CHANGE" bumper stickers
That's not the change I'm looking for
"Change" is good.
It is right up there with "Balance"
...
...stupid f-ing jedi.
social commentary.
Not calling you are anyone else a jedi Frank.
social commentary.
Not calling you are anyone else a jedi Frank.
May the farce be with you....
So, I have been maintaining my 'radio silence' for a couple weeks now. Don't answer WAW's calls. If she leaves a message and it requires a response I call or text her back. If it's just informational I don't need to respond.
It helps me to detach. When we do talk, I keep it short. I try to keep a neutral voice. This is my 180, previously I tried the 'friendly' thing and all it did was allow her to not have to feel like getting divorced was actually hurting anybody. I tried 'angry' also, hoping it would help me deal with my feelings but I really didn't like how it felt. So detached and neutral is working better - for me. I do think it's bothering her but I really don't care.
I've gotten a few 'odd' calls from her (she leaves a message). Yesterday she called to tell me that she got a call from our health insurance company regarding the application she filled out to lower the rate (I pay our health insurance). She had forgotten to check her language of choice (English) so they called her to get that info. Why she had to call me to tell me that was a mystery.
Today though, she called to tell me that D14's counselor wanted her to know that she had finally made a 'breakthrough' and was talking about her anger about this whole situation. WAW thought this was good because D14 would start healing and be able to accept the divorce better. She just doesn't get it.
D14 has been really upbeat when she's around me. Divorce hurts kids though. I wish I could stop this but I can't. All I can do is take care of myself, so I can be there for them.
And that, is exactly what I am doing.
Today though, she called to tell me that D14's counselor wanted her to know that she had finally made a 'breakthrough' and was talking about her anger about this whole situation. WAW thought this was good because D14 would start healing and be able to accept the divorce better. She just doesn't get it.
To most parents, that would be very good news.
Why do you suppose that isn't the case with you?
And what exactly is it that you think Lorie doesn't get this time?
Today though, she called to tell me that D14's counselor wanted her to know that she had finally made a 'breakthrough' and was talking about her anger about this whole situation. WAW thought this was good because D14 would start healing and be able to accept the divorce better. She just doesn't get it.
To most parents, that would be very good news.
Why do you suppose that isn't the case with you?
And what exactly is it that you think Lorie doesn't get this time?
"To most parents this would be very good news" is way off base. I don't know how you drew the conclusion that I DON'T think that's good news, but you are wrong. I guess I need to give more details to keep you from judging me as uncaring.
It IS good news that D14 is making emotional progress. I am glad for that and at her counselors request we are setting it up so she can see her counselor twice a week now to help her open up even more. She really likes her counselor a lot.
WAW thinks that the 'good news' is that D14 is making progress towards "accepting the divorce". But that is her selfish view of the situation. In reality D14 is making progress accepting and dealing with her suppressed ANGER towards WAW.
How do I know this? Because yesterday D14 told WAW that she had a dream where D14 KILLED her, and it scared her to think that she would dream that.
What WAW doesn't get, and this is because both D14 and D18 tell me this, is that they have huge resentments against her for what she has done. The affairs, breaking up the family, treating them like girlfriends instead of parenting them and hardly ever listening or accepting their points of view, instead choosing to tell them what to do when she should be listening, or taking their feelings as criticism and getting defensive with her own children.
D18 says she can "take mom in small doses because they fight a lot". I asked her why and she just says "Mom never respects my feelings". D14 yells at her on the phone and shows her no respect, constantly trying to cut her off and hanging up on her. She NEVER does that to me. Ever.
I say nothing negative and do not bad mouth her to them. I listen and validate their feelings as ok without putting her down. I do not ask them about her, they just vent to me sometimes.
They treat me with respect and I treat them the same. The past few weeks my relationship with them both has improved by leaps and bounds. I had a "double header" yesterday where I spent part of the day with D14 and part of the evening with D18. Just talking and being close.
Friday night is usually "Girls night" with WAW and D14, where they have dinner and a movie. Tonight D14 chose to spend it with me. I reminded her that it was girls night and she said that she didn't feel like hanging with her mom.
There is a lot going on right now and I hope this helps you and others see the progress that is happening here. WAW still thinks everything is about 'accepting the divorce'. Both girls have told me they just want it over and accept that it is. Most of the issues today are in their relationships with their mother.
Our relationships are healing because I AM a parent and I AM respectful. I do NOT put myself and my feelings ahead of theirs. Ever.
I hope I answered your questions.
I was about to reply yesterday evening like Amy did, but now you have cleared it up.
Maybe the counselor will let your STBXW know about D14's anger towards her. It is not up to you to interfere though.
Your job is to just continue to be the stable father in their lives. They will come to their own conclusions about the divorce and relationships to their parents.
I hope that I never witness my kids have negative feelings about their mother. I wont fuel the fire, but I also dont plan to try to repair any problems between themselves and their mother (or step dad).
Maybe the counselor will let your STBXW know about D14's anger towards her. It is not up to you to interfere though.
Your job is to just continue to be the stable father in their lives. They will come to their own conclusions about the divorce and relationships to their parents.
I hope that I never witness my kids have negative feelings about their mother. I wont fuel the fire, but I also dont plan to try to repair any problems between themselves and their mother (or step dad).
The counselor doesn't tell us what they talk about. It's a trust thing for D14.
I appreciate your support. It is my role to be the stable one. It's a role I take seriously.
Your explanation sheds a different light on your previous post, Frank.
Thanks for fleshing it out.
Today was a nice day. D14 was here all day. I'm doing well.
Frank,
Start truly taking the advice you mete out to others, which is often very good, and DETACH. You say you are, or that you've changed but it's like I said before...I have heard it all before --from you...and you are not really changing much of the attitudes or behaviors as far as I can tell. I mean it's great you are not drinking and losing your temper as much. But you have NOT actually detached.
You have the score card out a lot lately. You may not realize it but you list every "odd" call or text that stbxw makes to you, implying or stating outright that she's weird or crazy. First off, you do not know. Second, to me, the calls seem as if she's being polite. For instance, recently I thanked an old HS bf for teaching me to drive a stick shift. Yes, out of the blue, (Why? b/c I had just bought a car with one actually but as far as HE knows, it's out of the blue. I don't want to go marry the old bf, or have an A nor do I feel guilty about anything But I just never thanked him for that and a few other acts of kindness that I recalled over the years including some from his family.)
The health insurance issue is another non-issue to me still...I mean you know you will have to legally pay it anyhow when you are divorced so why mention that you are paying it now, repeatedly? You also do that with other financial matters....We get it Frank, you earn more, so you'll pay more...it was a long term M...that's how it is here. I know you aren't trying to sound like a hero but by constantly mentioning what you pay for, it's a bit unbecoming and I hope to God you don't do that in front of the d's b/c it has the effect of looking cheap, rather than the desired effect of looking generous. Especially since the reality is that these are MOSTLY things you'll be paying anyhow, for a short while as d18 becomes fully emancipated if she isn't already.
And her saying she's single on the form, isn't helpful to her for insurance purposes nor was she thinking YOU would read it and then read INTO it...nor could I possibly see it as purposefully fraudulent.... She probably thought saying "married" was dishonest. Are you thinking she's really "defrauding" anyone? As a L, her comment could not have been intended to make money or defraud, as you suggest, BECAUSE it's the opposite. People falsely claim to be married to get insurance in this state, not the other way around. So, you see how much negative energy was wasted on something false? You are inflicting pain on yourself for no reason AND negatively viewing her unfairly at least in this instance. AND You are still blaming her for the divorce though you feign"taking FULL responsibility" for the drinking and gloss over the temper problems, but whenever you "take accountability" you follow it with a smear on her...or mention your unmet needs AGAIN....some of which you never expressed to her by your own admission. She was not a good mind reader Frank....but hey, you are keeping score and you seem to think you are way ahead of her on the "rightness scale" and that's such a progress SLOWER.....it prevents true growth and forgiveness. I don't see any of that in your posts.
Whey you say "she doesn't get it" it's a clear implication to me that you are suggesting she's selfish and lacking as a mother and should feel worse about this divorce...that's why you said "she just doesn't get it" (I really believe that, and you critisize the mothering A LOT) and as for the anger you say your d's feel towards her, it's as if you have forgotten their anger at you.
I recall some very angry times they had with you, even recently with big blow ups, and while it's great you are getting help, I can say as the child of an alcoholic, my dad getting sober was not something "that fixed all the hurt" by a long shot. My mother's failings notwistanding, there was no solution to my dad's drinking that my mom could do anything about and I'm sure my dad thought he was unsupported in his work--it was top secret and she could not help him but to him....she didn't read his mind so he HAD to drink...and after a while she tired of his mood swings and irrational behavior while drunk so yeah, she got bitter and did not forgive well at all. Not until his death bed....so for me, forgiveness was a learned skill since I never saw it growing up.... But this is NOT a contest of who is closer to the girls anyhow.
Until you let the score card go, (mandatory b/c We all use different score cards; they'll NEVER match!!! no matter how much "evidence" you think you have to "prove you are the 'righter' one) believe me, I have been there and done that and learned the hard way that it wasted SO MUCH TIME -and life is short....
SO, lose the score card for real, and stop the commentary about innocuous phone calls or her apparent mistakes on insurance forms. No more "isn't that weird?" It is not nearly as weird as you suggest. I've seen you post that about 25 times and wanted to say this but waited 'til now.
As if she's "rushing you to divorce her as fast as you can??" WTH? This has dragged on a long time, especially for CAL.
And as for what you are paying for...well, I apologize if this offends you, but it's reality--you will be legally obligated to pay it and probably more...so the comments sound like complaints to me. Are they? (I mean, does any man think he pays too little support??)
In your case... it was a long term marriage-- you do share in the responsibility for it's demise....you do make more money and they are your children....soooo what's the mystery? Aren't you the one still in the house? Aren't they in an apartment? Didn't they have to move out and didn't she once move back in to help you with the drinking and depression and "losing it"? Didn't you then impose rules on her as if it was a reconciliation? Isn't their life style the one that has gone down the most?
Hey, Frank, don't freak on me b/c let's remember a judge could wonder these things...
So, you MUST detach or at least stop reading into and commenting about everything she does, then I think more progress will be made. You can move faster on this road Frank. You "know" it in your head. And while venting MAY be helpful sometimes it's the opposite. Writing things sometimes gives power to the words that should remain unsaid...just a thought.
Look, You write things to others, but you don't really apply them to yourself as much as you need to, don't you think? Why not do that now so you can really move on and change? My T and then our MC said if we had not made some real progress within 6 meetings, we should try another MC...fwiw.
j-
To clarify, D18 lives with me in the house. D14 lives with her mom but comes over here every day. She stays overnight when she wants to.
So, you MUST detach or at least stop reading into and commenting about everything she does, then I think more progress will be made. You can move faster on this road Frank. You "know" it in your head. And while venting MAY be helpful sometimes it's the opposite. Writing things sometimes gives power to the words that should remain unsaid...just a thought.
Yes, good point. It does give power to the words. That needs to stop
Look, You write things to others, but you don't really apply them to yourself as much as you need to, don't you think? Why not do that now so you can really move on and change? My T and then our MC said if we had not made some real progress within 6 meetings, we should try another MC...fwiw.
Thanks for reminding me of this. I'm changing, albeit slowly, but I am changing.
This morning D14 shows up at the door around 9 am. She has some things she wants to do on her computer that is here and just didn't want to stay at the condo or go with her mom to her church of 'spiritual living'.
She's in a great mood and is happy to be here. That makes me happy that she feels that way. Today is going to be a really good day.
We had a nice afternoon shopping at thrift stores for items for her halloween costume. We also visited the comic book shops so D14 could get the latest issues of "Dead Pool" comics. Had a great (overpriced) dinner at California Pizza kitchens.
The only time there was some sadness was when I suggested I take her back to her moms around 7, and she said she'd rather not go that early because she wasn't in the mood to "put up with mom". I didn't ask what she meant and we agreed on 8 since there is school tomorrow. So we're hanging here at the house for now and relaxing.
One thing, 25yearsmlc, that you need to understand is that WAW is a survivor of sexual abuse when she was 12.
She doesn't trust men, so she uses them. I was the first and only man she trusted in her entire life. Seriously.
When I lost it, due to my breakdown and subsequent alcohol abuse she had nowhere to go. Not to her father, who didn't protect her and to this day 'wonders' if she made it up.
Not to her mother, who, when WAW was 17 divorced her dad because she was just 'unhappy'. Her dad was a workaholic, who was just trying to make his family be comfortable. She chased other men, and he, because of his upbringing, was not emotionally present.
When she decided to come live with me, he said "Good luck Frank, she's your problem now". I thought he was an a-hole for saying that to me.
I have protected her, encouraged her, loved her when she cheated on me and protected our kids from her emotional outbreaks.
And through all this, I have still loved her unconditionally. Still.
I speak my truth here. 25, is right in that I have been slow to detach. And my counselor and others have told me that detaching will break the cycle. And it has to happen.
I love my daughters, more than anything. Here's what's weird. I never wanted kids. Never. WAW desperately wanted them. Like they would fix something for her.
Now, I feel so blessed to have them. But they don't get along with their mother.
That kills me because for al the years of their pre-teens I gave her all authority over how to raise them. I felt I was not qualified to be a dad. How messed up is that?
Well, today I feel like I am over qualified to be 'dad'.
I want to help WAW, I want to call her and tell her what D14, and D18 have said to me. They love her but do not want to spend too much time with her. However, that would not help her in any way. And 25, it's not part of the 11th step prayer.
I know why, I've heard it over and over. She takes things personally, she attacks their beliefs. she treats them like they are 8 years old.
Or worse, she treat D18 as if she is going to become the slut WAW was at her age. She talks down to her and projects her own mistakes on her. D18 has told me over and over again how she hates that 'mom thinks I am as stupid as she was when she was in her teens"
D18 is in a committed relationship with a very good guy who is not perfect, and is capable of talking through issues.
I'm not keeping a scorecard. I'm really not. I'm asking for help as I try to understand WAW in the context of her relationships with out daughters.
I realize I f'ked up because I took on the responsibility for someone who is likely bipolar, who needed me to be the strong man and when I failed she reverted to the only way she knew how to live.
Right now, I only want to do what is best for my girls. If you care about us, and I know you do, help me to focus on how to raise 2 teenagers who love their parents, see their mom as a mess, and see their dad as a strong man with a lot of issues he is working on.
I KNOW I am the warrior. I know this. It doesn't make me better or lesser than WAW. It make me strong.
Another good morning, the start of another good day. No scorecards from now on. Nothing but unconditional love and loving detachment.
I'm also going to stay out of the issues between D14, D18 and their mom. I really think it's a "mother daughter" thing with teenagers. So, I am no longer going to worry about them. Just love them all.
glad you mention the mother daughter thing b/c it's REAL...and don't forget the issues you've had with your d's too. Not to dig in here, but I don't have amnesia Frank, so you can't expect me to let it pass without mentioning that you've shared some things with me that indicate all is NOT well with your Rs with them and the big flare ups don't fade that fast....in short, they have their problems with you as well.
AND Teens are wonderful at manipulating parents, particularly when the parents are divided. You have no idea what they've told your stbxw but don't forget, she knew about the drinking b/c a d told her...and asked her to come home to protect THEM from you....look, like I said, I'm not rubbing salt in the wound, but reminding you of some other realities....it's all too easy to point out the deficits they mention to you about their mother, or your spin on it, and your microscopic analysis. I would not even ask your d why she doesn't want to go home. She has to go, so get her going. Otherwise the "contest" will be forever, and you will not always win...no parent can. Try to stay united or at least not partake of the tearing down. Insist they refer to their mother with respect, and leave it at that. IF THEY bring up problems, steer them towards solutions, and don't gloat or congratulate yourself. It's too competitive and it is not healthy for THEM...it's destructive. Their mother is their female role model; for better or for worse. You must put a positive
spin on what you can...
Try to keep in mind the main thing--They love you both and you both love them, and remember your gratitude that they are in your life. But for your wife, you would not have these ladies in your world.
Keep dropping the scorecard. As you live "in the now" and go forward, it'll be easier.
j-
Thanks 25, your post was very well stated and had some good advice. I appreciate it a lot. And no more score cards.
D14 and I made dinner tonight and had a lot of laughs. D18 has been moody today and decided to go for a drive to the beach to see the sunset. About 10 minutes after she left she called D14 to apologize for not staying to have dinner with us. That's new for her, she has been self absorbed lately.
D14 and I had fun making pasta, salad and other things. During the cooking she said how she likes making dinner here with me because our kitchen has enough room for two people to work in it and that the condo doesn't so she doesn't get to cook with Mom.
D14 likes to cook, and watches the Cooking Channel all the time and likes to show me her 'expertise'. I even told her that since she cooked, I would do the dishes.
We had a good sit down in the living room and talked about her favorite subjects: Transformers and Kingdom of Hearts characters.
These are the good parts of life.
This morning around 10 am STBX called me and I had a feeling I should answer the phone. I did and she told me that D14 was having a meltdown and they had been talking since 6 am.
She said that D14 wanted to come over to my house and talk to me, to get things off her chest. I thought this was a good thing, and I did not ask STBX what they had talked about.
She sounded pretty tired and I went to pick up D14.
D14 and I talked on the way back to the house. She basically said she has been stressed out, is worried something is going to happen to me and is upset that we are getting divorced. She's having trouble with her schoolwork and is depressed.
I listened and validated and she seemed to feel better. I think she must have gotten most of it out with her mom.
She's in better spirits now after being here all day. I really think she is moving back towards me and our real home again. This time I won't screw it up for her.
STBX called me a while ago to tell me that she called the school counselor to have a meeting to help us figure out how to get her back on track academically. So we're meeting her tomorrow morning at 8 to see what we can do for D14.
STBX just came by to pick up D14. She rang the doorbell and waited a minute. Usually she calls D14 in advance and she is ready when she gets here so she doesn't have to come to the door.
I went from my office to the door, saw D14 standing at the bottom of the stairs saying to me "Who's at the door?". I said "It's your mom of course, go get your stuff".
So, I go to the door and open it, standing to the side so she can come in of course. She just stands there until I say "Come on in, D14 is getting her stuff packed up".
So she comes in and I say "I guess she didn't know you were coming now since you usually call. She says "Well I TOLD her I would be here around 3 (It's 3:20) but I guess I'm a little late."
I said "Well you know how she is with time, and I'm sure she didn't want to sit in the living room waiting around" I smiled as I said this, thinking that somehow she felt like I was criticizing her.
So she says "When are you going to get your paperwork to Suzie??" She is our Legal aid person doing the divorce paperwork. I told her that I will have it by the end of the week as I have to call creditors to get current balances.
D14 came downstairs with her stuff, gave me a pleasant "Bye Dad!" and as they left she said "I'll see you at the school at 8 tomorrow".
Man, it is so hard to talk to her sometimes when she takes everything I say as criticism. It's easier to just not say anything.
I suspect that D14 dumped a lot of stuff on her, and some of it was related to me and mistakes I made. So she has a lot of resentment towards me. Maybe a year from now she'll be beyond that. Tomorrow morning with the school counselor will be loads of fun.
I suspect that D14 dumped a lot of stuff on her, and some of it was related to me and mistakes I made.
So I imagine she has a lot of resentment towards me.
: )
Hell Frank maybe you burnt the toast the last time you made it for her.
Maybe a year from now she'll be beyond that.
Maybe...
Some people hold onto grudges like they were security blankets.
Maybe you'll be beyond caring.
As for the critizing?
If you did it on purpose then shame on you...pointless, as it stands I didn't see it that way and maybe she should start being more on time, although leopards and spots man...leopards and spots.
: )
Hell Frank maybe you burnt the toast the last time you made it for her.
Maybe I 'imagine' too much.
WTFK's (Who The Fook Knows)
Maybe a year from now she'll be beyond that.
Maybe...
Some people hold onto grudges like they were security blankets.
Maybe you'll be beyond caring.
As for the critizing?
If you did it on purpose then shame on you...pointless, as it stands I didn't see it that way and maybe she should start being more on time, although leopards and spots man...leopards and spots.
I didn't do it on purpose. Really. She was perturbed that D14 wasn't ready to go - even though she was 20 minutes late and COULD have called D14 like she usualy would. I casually pointed out that she didn't follow her usual protocol and got lambasted for it.
I talked to brother in law and he reminded me of a few things.
* When she doesn't call D14 in advance so she can 'be ready' for pickup, it's because she wants to come to the front door knowing that I will answer the door.
* She has two modes she is in then. Either she is ready to be insulted by anything I say, or she is 'sweet and nice' waiting for a response, which I don't give her any more.
During all of this I am doing my best to stay neutral. This is not personal, nor is she attacking me. It's just MLC / Runaway stuff. And I will give her the financial info this week.
I need to end this cycle. I still love her, like we all do. I need to remove myself from the drama. We will get divorced. It's a requirement for the construction of my new life.
mountains out of mole hills here and major mind reading and then discussing with bil who can't possibly know wth is going on with your stbxw. Who cares that you answered the door and she wondered why she had to get out of the car IF IF IF that's what was in her mind? Who cares? What if she's mad at Obama for not meeting the Dalai Lama?? Will you wonder how that relates to you? It doesn't...
Just get the Div paperwork you have, done, and man up tomorrow morning. No arguing, just validating your d's perspective unless it's historical revision and you can say you don't recall it that way. And drop it. But own your stuff and shock her with that accountability. Once you "steal the thunder" and concede the mistakes you made and say you recognize them, you are sorry for the pain you caused her as you love her deeply and you are working on it...SO, a problem being worked on, is no longer a problem...make sense?
J-
I actually said I didn't see it that way...
Frank I want to remind you of two things from a while ago. : )
1 - I don't care about the reasons...You a warrior or a paper pushing desk jockey? Man or mouse.
2 - F you Jack
Gratis - 3 - Stop telling me about why she is who she is. Sttart telling us how Frank is becoming Frank.
Frank I want to remind you of two things from a while ago. : )
1 - I don't care about the reasons...You a warrior or a paper pushing desk jockey? Man or mouse.
2 - F you Jack
Gratis - 3 - Stop telling me about why she is who she is. Start telling us how Frank is becoming Frank.
Ok,
This morning we were at the High School counselors office with D14 to see what we could do to get her homework done in a timely manner and deal with all the other issues. It was mostly a waste of time. The counselor was easily intimidated and would not press any issues. D14 was uncomfortable and STBX was sometimes teary-eyed.
I finally came up with some ideas to help D14 track her time, make sure homework was submitted instead of 'forgotten'.
I placated counselor and STBX and agreed to a doctors visit to see if she has any hormone / glandular / or other chemical imbalances. STBX says she has been giving her 'supplements' to help her with her depression. Personally I think she's just acting out because she is angry at her mother. I never have any issues with her, she's always happy around me.
So yeah, I took the leadership position and calmly found some solutions.
After the meeting STBX and I spoke outside. I took the action items that were needed to get D14 some folders and other stuff to track her homework better. STBX went on to tell me she thinks D14 is depressed because she misses our dog Diamond and of course, she doesn't want us to be divorced. She went on to add that D14 told her that she felt like it was D14's fault that she couldn't fix this.
I didn't say anything. Then STBX starts to cry again. I calmly asked her what's up, what's hurting her. She then told me how she misses Skylar (our beagle). Now, I have never tried to stop her or D14 from taking him whenever they want. He has been on a couple 'overnights' about 2 months ago.
So I said this to her "Well why don't you take him sometimes? He loves the attention he gets and it's good for all of us"
She didn't reply. I told her I would take care of the items on my 'to do' list and said goodbye.
D14 came home after school and I had the things she needed to help her with her homework organization. I taled to her briefly about the meeting, mostly to let her know that I think the plan we have is a good one and it'll work out.
In the middle of this convo, she says that she'd feel a lot better if she didn't have to deal with her moms emotional outbursts at the condo. STBX cries a lot, and has a lot of hurt. Then she says that they went to the animal shelter the other day looking for a small dog to keep at the condo.
I said 'why would you do that when Skylar would love to spend time with you?' and her response was "I don't know, mom has been whining about how she is so lonely at the condo and she wants a pet". We already have Skylar (beagle) Captain (African Grey bird) and Mischeif (Green Conure Bird).
I do nothing to stop her from having them at her place. I encourage it actually.
D14 gos on to say that they saw a golden retriever at the shelter whose owner was killed in a bike accident, that they would have loved to adopt, but it couldn't live in a condo - and would I be willing to let it live here.
I also said to D14 that she should take Skylar over to STBX condo so he can get spoiled, rather than get another dog.
I don't know what is going on here.
Frank I want to remind you of two things from a while ago. : )
1 - I don't care about the reasons...You a warrior or a paper pushing desk jockey? Man or mouse.
2 - F you Jack
Gratis - 3 - Stop telling me about why she is who she is. Start telling us how Frank is becoming Frank.
Ok,
This morning we were at the High School counselors office with D14 to see what we could do to get her homework done in a timely manner and deal with all the other issues. It was mostly a waste of time. The counselor was easily intimidated and would not press any issues. D14 was uncomfortable and STBX was sometimes teary-eyed.
Why was the c "Intimidated" and by whom? What would make her feel that way?
I finally came up with some ideas to help D14 track her time, make sure homework was submitted instead of 'forgotten'.
I placated counselor
"Placated counselor...." what's that mean? If she needs treatment, get it.
Don't you agree? If not, why didn't you say so? If so, what is it you're trying to say now? I don't get it. Sincerely.
and STBX and agreed to a doctors visit to see if she has any hormone / glandular / or other chemical imbalances. STBX says she has been giving her 'supplements' to help her with her depression. Personally I think she's just acting out because she is angry at her mother. I never have any issues with her, she's always happy around me.
Really? D14 wasn't saying something to you in the past 72 hours, crying, about how you've hurt her and she unloaded on stbxw about you, or was angry and said you'd been angry around her or wronged her in some way? I mean I could swear I just read this recently in your posts...but you are saying now that THIS was ALL about her bad r with stbxw? So yeah, I took the leadership position and calmly found some solutions.
After the meeting STBX and I spoke outside. I took the action items that were needed to get D14 some folders and other stuff to track her homework better. STBX went on to tell me she thinks D14 is depressed because she misses our dog Diamond and of course, she doesn't want us to be divorced. She went on to add that D14 told her that she felt like it was D14's fault that she couldn't fix this.
I didn't say anything. Then STBX starts to cry again. I calmly asked her what's up, what's hurting her. She then told me how she misses Skylar (our beagle). Now, I have never tried to stop her or D14 from taking him whenever they want. He has been on a couple 'overnights' about 2 months ago.
But you are in the family home and they are in a condo. Isn't that part of the life they miss? So I said this to her "Well why don't you take him sometimes? He loves the attention he gets and it's good for all of us"
She didn't reply. I told her I would take care of the items on my 'to do' list and said goodbye.
D14 came home after school and I had the things she needed to help her with her homework organization. I taled to her briefly about the meeting, mostly to let her know that I think the plan we have is a good one and it'll work out.
In the middle of this convo, she says that she'd feel a lot better if she didn't have to deal with her moms emotional outbursts at the condo. STBX cries a lot, and has a lot of hurt. Then she says that they went to the animal shelter the other day looking for a small dog to keep at the condo.
If d14 spontaneously says these things to you without any prodding, then she's playing both sides of the fence. Though I have no idea what she hopes to gain by it. Maybe a recon? Kids think unrealistically at times...sadI said 'why would you do that when Skylar would love to spend time with you?' and her response was "I don't know, mom has been whining about how she is so lonely at the condo and she wants a pet". We already have Skylar (beagle) Captain (African Grey bird) and Mischeif (Green Conure Bird).
I do nothing to stop her from having them at her place. I encourage it actually.
They are in a condo...is it really hard to understand their reluctance/concerns when they have no yard? Maybe they wish you'd leave the house and switch places, since there are 2 of them, and you can have an office anywhere. What was the reason you got to keep the house anyhow? I am not suggesting this frankd, just wondering about their thought process. As a L, I would wonder why the mother and child are in the condo and the single man is in the house. D18 is on her own now so she doesn't actually count.D14 gos on to say that they saw a golden retriever at the shelter whose owner was killed in a bike accident, that they would have loved to adopt, but it couldn't live in a condo - and would I be willing to let it live here.
See above comments....I also said to D14 that she should take Skylar over to STBX condo so he can get spoiled, rather than get another dog.
I don't know what is going on here.
J-
You really don't know what is going on here? Are you sure? I'm asking.
J-
Isn't that why we are on this board? To help get clarification from the experience of others?
I know what's going on with D14. She is not 'connected' with Skylar. Why STBX said she 'misses Skylar' when she can have him any time and I have encouraged it, well I have no clue what is going on with STBX. I have no huge connection with Skylar, and she hasn't tried hard to spend time with him. I have practically pushed him in her arms the last two times she and D14 had him over night.
I don't have a desire to defend myself to you.
I will give you some simple points.
1) D18 had the same counselor. I told her about our meeting and SHE said that the counselor was easily intimidated. I was trying my best nOT to be intimidating, instead looking for soultions.
2) STBX and D14 live in a condo because STBX was [censored]*ng another man, get it? SHe IS still doing this. D14 hates this guy, hates living there. Did your H fuc*k another woman? Did he do it in full view of your kids? Were you forced to kick him on on moral principals? If not then I guess you aren't qualified to decide how we must all 'feel'.
3) D14 talks to me in TEARS about this situation she lives in. How she doesn't want to be around her because of her emotional mood swings.
In summary, you are way off base and insulting. STBX is out of the house because it is HER CHOICE. Get it? She could legally use the California courts to kick me out, but she knows if she does that the two girls will disown her.
Why do you think that is? Because I'm some kind off A$$hole? Why do you think the girls would not want to take the house away from me if that were true? If I'm the baddie, as you keep painting me out to be, why not take what's theirs?
Why do they tend to gravitate to me when I'm solid and stable?
I have no idea where all your anger comes from. If you don't have anything supportive to say to me on ways I can help my girls - all three of them - then please keep your opinions to yourself. I am tired of your constant negativity
Thank You
You really don't know what is going on here? Are you sure? I'm asking.
J-
Actually, I believe that she is experiencing the consequences of her choices and missing her old life. Just like I was forced to do in the past few months. I'm growing from it and I hope to god she does too. Then maybe we can all heal from this.
frankd,
Whoa calm down. You're projecting your anger and it doesn't belong to me.
j-
frankd,
Whoa calm down. You're projecting your anger and it doesn't belong to me.
j-
Ok, I guess I'm feeling a bit defensive. Sorry
I highly doubt that your STBXW would be able to get you thrown out of the house now. She had left on her own choice and I doubt any court would change the status quo on that.
If you really believe that D14 is suffering emotionally and mentally living with her new age spiritual crack pot mother and loser sex partner, then you need to decide whether it is better that D14 lives full time in a more stable environment with you.
My brother got divorced when his son was 2. Both parents had alcohol problems, but the court still awarded custody to the mother since my brother worked full time. It was not until his son was 14 that the battles and emotional torment he endured with his angry and drug/alcohol addicted mother came to an end. His mother had hit him and he hit back.
My brother then tried to obtain full custody. They went to a see a court appointed counselor so as to determine what was best for his son. His son talked first with the counselor (female). Then brother talked with the counselor. Then my brother and son talked together. Then his X wife talked with the counselor. She threatened to kick the counselors ass if she did not recommend custody for her. The mother / son talk with the counselor never happened. The next thing that happened was that my brother, his X and the counselor (with an armed guard) were taken in front of the judge who ruled for full custody for my brother.
My nephew had a stable and great life with my brother before joining the US Air Force a few years ago and he recently go married. My brother is in a happy long term marriage. My brothers X wife kept her anger and addictions. She was found dead in a motel from apparent suicide a few months ago while trying to escape (after embezzeling from her employer) into Canada and being denied.
Pick your battles carefully, but since this now seems that an adolescent is suffering, I think you might need to get some more personal legal advice than what you and your STBXW are currently negotiating.
If you really believe that D14 is suffering emotionally and mentally living with her new age spiritual crack pot mother and loser sex partner, then you need to decide whether it is better that D14 lives full time in a more stable environment with you.
I think that she hates living there only when OM is around, or when, as D14 puts it, STBX is whiny.
Lately she has been spending more time here with me, but sleeps at the condo at her mothers request. She had also told me that OM is around a lot less when she is there because STBX knows that D14 doesn't like him.
Something is changing with STBX. In August she was 'happy' with OM, went to visit her mom with OM and told her how happy she was not to be with me.
Yesterday she tells me she misses our dog because she is lonely when she is at the condo alone. That's surprising because she was 'happy' and I would think she would have OM over so she wouldn't feel so lonely. D14 tells me that STBX has been telling her the same thing. And that she's been depressed.
Well, letting go isn't easy. When I saw how sad she was yesterday I wanted to tell her to come home. But we don't get to do that. We get to be divorced.
Today I am feeling better. I realize when I see her down I get angry that our life has gone down this path. But I also realize that it has to go this way.
She cannot and should not come home until you are you Frank.
You get angry that your life has gone down this path when she is down, you get angry that your life has gone down this path when when she is up, you get angry that your life has gone down this path when she is angry.
If she came back would you guys get better?
I don't think so...but then they are not my shoes.
You don't like the path, understandable, change your perspective, or chart your own course, stop being a stick in the river and pis sed off at the river.
The dog issue...
If you are really not attached to Skylar...why do you have him/her?
Is it the connection, is it like the reason people don't change a room and keep it as a shrine to a lost loved one?
If you want D14 at your home why isn't she?
You aren't going to 'please' your wife into coming back...and everytime you try to 'please' her its like...I dunno man...like your trying to accommodate her at cost to yourself...you lose something in yourself, and I cannot put my finger on it. Respect, diginity, esteem...and that lost part fills up with despair, anger, hurt.
Cycle...break it.
She cannot and should not come home until you are you Frank.
Agreed, besides she wants the divorce.
If she came back would you guys get better?
I don't think so...but then they are not my shoes.
Probably not. Not right now anyway.
You don't like the path, understandable, change your perspective, or chart your own course, stop being a stick in the river and pis sed off at the river.
I've been doing that Jack.
If you are really not attached to Skylar...why do you have him/her?
Is it the connection, is it like the reason people don't change a room and keep it as a shrine to a lost loved one?
I didn't say I wasn't attached to him, I said that I got him for them. He's a lovable guy and sleeps in the bedroom with me every night.
If you want D14 at your home why isn't she?
Well, all I can do is tell you what D18 has said to me. That D14 doesn't want her mom to be alone so she thinks one kid should live with each of us. D14 is very sensitive to others feelings.
You aren't going to 'please' your wife into coming back...and everytime you try to 'please' her its like...I dunno man...like your trying to accommodate her at cost to yourself...you lose something in yourself, and I cannot put my finger on it. Respect, diginity, esteem...and that lost part fills up with despair, anger, hurt.
I'm learning that lesson. As I said in a previous post, I don't talk to her if I can help it. I don't take her calls but instead let her leave a message.
Here's another '180'. Yesterday she told me her computer was broken so she couldn't get her e-mail any more and I should call her if I need to tell her something. I did NOT offer to fix it. She didn't ask either.
You got that right! Thanks Jack
No offense Frank...and not trying to be an a ss.
I have no huge connection with Skylar,
That is why I said what I did about Sklar.
And forgive me, because this is likely a touchy subject.
Your D14 doesn't want her mom to be alone, so she stays there, but:
3) D14 talks to me in TEARS about this situation she lives in. How she doesn't want to be around her because of her emotional mood swings
Your D14, is an amazing kid, but is breaking down trying to be a pleaser...Too much for a 14 year old...too much for anyone.
You're a pleaser too. She is taking after you. Pleasing others isn't a bad thing...as long as it doesn't come at continual cost to yourself.
No offense Frank...and not trying to be an a ss.
I have no huge connection with Skylar,
That is why I said what I did about Sklar.
Fair enough. He's my buddy right now but I don't mind if he spends time with STBXW. I do miss him when he's gone.
Your D14 doesn't want her mom to be alone, so she stays there, but:
3) D14 talks to me in TEARS about this situation she lives in. How she doesn't want to be around her because of her emotional mood swings
Your D14, is an amazing kid, but is breaking down trying to be a pleaser...Too much for a 14 year old...too much for anyone.
You're a pleaser too. She is taking after you. Pleasing others isn't a bad thing...as long as it doesn't come at continual cost to yourself.
Yeah, and just be be sure, she only has these tearful talks maybe once a week or so. It's not constant.
Lately I have done everything I can not to 'please' STBX. So she has been pushing the divorce, and this weekend I'll have all my paperwork done so it can go forward. Maybe by the end of October, heck, maybe on my birthday (29th) or Halloween.
Time will tell. Thanks again Jack.
I'll have all my financial declarations ready today. STBX sent me an e-mail asking if I'll have it done before she goes away on the 20th. Of course I will, I promised her she would be divorced by the end of the month.
D14 has been having a rough time. I talked to her counselor about her not sleeping, and just being unhappy and not wanting to go to school in the morning. After the counseling session D14 told me that she really had some issues with her friends, and that her mom pushes her to talk to her about them and when she doesn't want to talk STBX gets upset and makes her feel guilty for not confiding in her.
As D14 put it "It's like mom is always on her period and cries a lot when I don't want to talk to her".
Anyway, D14 stayed home from school again today. STBX called me and told me that she was exhausted and needed to rest. STBX said it's not because of our 'family situation' that she doesn't sleep, it's because of her issues with her friends.
I don't believe her but there's nothing I can do.
As for myself, I continue to keep a detached tone when I speak with STBX. And I keep my focus on healing myself.
I think the best thing for D14 is to deal with her issues between herself and her counselor for now.
I don't believe her but there's nothing I can do.
Who dont you believe? D14 or your STBX? It sounds like both are saying that D14's biggest issue is with friends which is typical for teenage girls.
Who dont you believe? D14 or your STBX? It sounds like both are saying that D14's biggest issue is with friends which is typical for teenage girls.
Because of things D14 said to me, I don't believe STBX. I think STBX is blind to the real issues. Both D14 and D18 have told me during their 'venting' sessions with me that I act like a parent with them and STBX acts like a whiny sister.
So, all I _can_ do is stay the course and be the rock.
Well it's raining here in SoCal. I like the rain, it's cleansing and good for my soul.
Over the past few days there have been many issues with D14 but only when she is at the condo. She seems to be ok when she's with me at the house. All I can do is remain calm and stable.
STBX has been sending E-Mails to me and our Legal aid to push the divorce paperwork through. I have to submit a few things then we're "done" and she can be free I guess. It still kind of hurts but I realize this is necessary. Although the other day she did say she 'misses our dog'. Right.
I have to submit a few things then we're "done" and she can be free I guess.
I really wish you could look at it as yourself being free.
Dont regret the past.
Look to the future.
That is the way of a warrior in the quest of life.
Yeah, I still feel like a failure though. Like I brought this on myself because I was weak.
I'm free of the drama though. I can see that.
IF you feel weak and like a failure...
HOW are you going to be anything else if you dwell on it?
IF you feel weak and like a failure...
HOW are you going to be anything else if you dwell on it?
Good point, the 'law of attraction' also applies.
Well, I finished the financial declarations and e-mailed them to the Paralegal and STBXW. We can probably submit them before the weekend. Yay.
Today is a good day for letting go. There's plenty of things to do with my life and I'm feeling good about it. One of the positives of doing the financial statement is that I know where I stand and it's possible to get through the financial mess and come out ok on the other side.
I hired housecleaners to clean the house today. They've been here 6 hours and are about 2/3rds done. I almost started to cry as I looked at how long I've been living without enough self respect to keep my house really clean.
Well, I have it now. And that's all that matters.
STBX called me last night to tell me that while she is away on her massage / teacher / spiritual retreat next week from tuesday - sunday that D14 decided she wants to stay with me instead of having D18 go stay with her at the Condo.
She was worried that I would not be able to handle it, I'd drink, freak out, whatever.
I told her that if that was the case I'd have lost it by now as D14 has been emotionally difficult lately. Calmed her down.
More and more lately she has been very emotional. Maybe the 'retreat' will help her out.
You had alot more going on than a need to keep your house clean.
Nothing wrong with getting or hiring help to get you back on the right track.
I am resisting the urge to comment on the crying part...
...
still resisting.
: )
You had alot more going on than a need to keep your house clean.
Nothing wrong with getting or hiring help to get you back on the right track.
I am resisting the urge to comment on the crying part...
...
still resisting.
: )
It was just the feeling that I had not been true to my self. Not missing having STBX as a 'housekeeper'. Just realizing I was worth caring for on my own merits.
STBX wasn't that great of a house keeper anyway. It's just one of those weird feelings you get when you realize you aren't taking care of yourself.
And that you have been 'waiting' for something to happen that isn't going to happen.
Carpet Cleaning today. The final step in the 'cleanup my life' actions.
On another note, D14 took Skylar (our beagle) to her moms last night. I think that's a good thing as he needs more attention. I'm surprised that after STBX told me a week ago that she missed Skylar she hasn't asked to have him over. Instead D14 did it.
People are strange.
D14 and I are going 'Thrift Store Shopping' today. Normally this is a favorite pastime of her and mom. We went a couple weeks ago and now it's apparently 'our thing'.
Got an e-mail from STBX where our legal aid person responded to her daily request for 'when can we sign the papers'? STBX is going away on one of her massage retreats on tuesday and wants them signed Monday if possible. Wants to make the end of October deadline 'we' agreed on.
Unless there is a point of contention that was missed, I'll sign them. Then she can go off on her retreat happy that she accomplished her goal. I'll have my whole family that week so I'll be glad that I'm doing something positive for them.
Almost over.
MY house is still clean. It's amazing how much that can change your outlook.
Clean house.
Good sex.
Great steak.
Insightful book.
Yup. Try for the other three and see how your they affect your insight.
I recommend checking out Alton Brown for the how to pan fry a steak...simple and amazing.
And get away from the touchy feeling self help books and pick up something with a little heft to it. Sommerset Maugham's
The Razor's Edge.
The sex part...you're on your own, but you aren't far from Vegas
...
Well I guess you need to start somewhere.
Alton Brown Pan Fried Rib Eye
Ingredients
1 boneless rib eye steak, 1 1/2-inch thick
Canola oil to coat
Kosher salt and ground black pepper
Directions
Place 10 to 12-inch cast iron skillet in oven and heat oven to 500 degrees. Bring steak(s) to room temperature.
When oven reaches temperature, remove pan and place on range over high heat. Coat steak lightly with oil and season both sides with a generous pinch of salt. Grind on black pepper to taste.
Immediately place steak in the middle of hot, dry pan. Cook 30 seconds without moving. Turn with tongs and cook another 30 seconds, then put the pan straight into the oven for 2 minutes. Flip steak and cook for another 2 minutes. (This time is for medium rare steaks. If you prefer medium, add a minute to both of the oven turns.)
Remove steak from pan, cover loosely with foil, and rest for 2 minutes. Serve whole or slice thin and fan onto plate
I like Alton Brown, he tells you the science behind the "WHY" you do something in the kitchen. I think you'd like him to Frank.
He has a show called "Good Eats"
Does this method of frying make the steak taste better than barbeque?
This purgatory time between girl friends is killing me. I wish I lived near Vegas.
LMAO!!
Kerry, I knew you would be showing up anytime when the topic turned to food and chicks.
Give it a shot Kerry and you tell me.
I like them both...
but any caveman can grill, and I speak as a caveman who likes to grill.
The steak you get in good restraunts are usually pan fried.
I don't see it as puratory.
I see it as a break time.
I've been taking a break since June. I sure hope my break time ends before next June when I turn the big 50.
If not that's what friends and an escort service are for.
Yeah, but prices in Vegas are artificially high. There was some article in L.A. Time or somewhere where they said the recession is 'forcing escorts to lower their rates to be on par with the rest of the nation'.
It is not legal in Clark county (where Vegas is) and taxes are not being paid.
Yeah, but prices in Vegas are artificially high.
Taken
in context...that is the best statement ever.
I'm going to be laughing all day long...
When isn't it artifically high?
Glad you got a laugh out of it, good way to start a Monday.
Still haven't heard from the Legal Aid person. Oh Well, maybe it won't get done today.
Heard from the Legal Aid person. She said STBX called her this morning and asked her if she could put it off until she gets back from her trip because she is too busy today getting ready.
She is leaving tomorrow to go to her massage retreat for teacher training reunion. This is a yearly event. She helps the people who run it so maybe she is busy today helping them get ready.
Well, another week then...
Last night STBX texts me that she will drop off D14's clothes and stuff this morning after she drops her off for school at 7 am. Says she will leave them on the front steps. She also adds that she has some veggies that she figures will spoil while she is away for 5 days and asks if I want them.
I said 'sure, but use your key and leave the things inside so the ants don't get into them'.
Not to mention we live on a busy street and I don't want someone seeing a backpack on the step and taking it. She does this often, won't come in the house if she's dropping something off and I'm not there.
Anyway, it's going to be great to have D14 here for 6 full days! And no contact with STBX.
I'll make some steak. D14 is a good carnivore.
I want to hear how the cast iron oven cooked steak works out for you.
Mushrooms.......
Sauteed with butter and herbs to go with the steak.
with fried onions and steamed California artichoke.
I had a Flatiron steak at TGI Fridays with D14 tonight. It was Yummy and the company was good!
I love Flat Iron steak! It is difficult to find in the grocery stores. It is so tender and the taste is spectacular. The only other part of the beef critter that I may like more is the bone marrow.
Kerry...
Could it be true?????
Are you a foodie like me?
Last night was a good night. D14 says she didn't sleep well still but I got up a couple times and checked on her and she was asleep. She claims she has had insomnia the past couple weeks. If anyone has ideas on how to help her sleep better please let me know.
It was nice to make breakfast and take her to school this morning. She's really happy to be here.
Last night her mom called from wherever she is. We were driving so I could hear the conversation. Mostly it was STBX grilling her about homework and other stuff. Lot's of "Yes mom"'s. After the call D14 was kind of sullen. I asked her what was wrong and she said that she was just tired of dealing with mom's stuff. I asked her if they were getting along and she said that they were, but mom is just too emotional and needy and she just can't deal with it. She said that her computer is broken and will shut off for no reason and that STBX cries sometimes when it happens.
I could fix it, but I didn't offer. I did tell D14 what was wrong with it and she told STBX what I said but STBX has nobody who can do the work, and isn't going to ask me to help.
We're all getting our life lessons. Mine are coming to fruition. Good things are happening as long as I stay open to them.
Saw a photo of her and boyfriend on facebook. She called him her 'lovey'. Puhleeze. She would never call me that. If I were him I'd be embarrassed. But then again if I were him I wouldn't have screwed a married woman. I'm sad for her and I almost pity him.
Frank, 'lovey' : ) LOL right out of Gilligan's Island.
Hey bud.
Have her do some cardio about an hour before bed. A walk, one of those silly little trampolines watching TV.
Why in the hell are you cruising her facebook page?
I dont have many ideas on the insomnia other than she should not be drinking coffee or tea. How about a long hot bath before bedtime?
Unless her mother becomes more emotionally stable, it seems that there will be a breaking point where D14 decides she would rather live with you. Just keep doing what you are doing and cross that bridge when and if the time comes.
He must not be much of a man if he cant rescue her from an evil computer that shuts off randomly. Maybe she should start hanging out at the Geek Squad desk at Bestbuy to snag herself a new lovey that can fix computer problems.
Have her do some cardio about an hour before bed. A walk, one of those silly little trampolines watching TV.
Good idea. I could use the exercise too. A walk would be good for both of us.
Why in the hell are you cruising her facebook page?
Curiosity got the best of me. I normally don't. Her profile is public so anyone can see it.
Unless her mother becomes more emotionally stable, it seems that there will be a breaking point where D14 decides she would rather live with you. Just keep doing what you are doing and cross that bridge when and if the time comes.
Yeah. I kind of hope that is the case. It's nice to have both girls here.
He must not be much of a man if he cant rescue her from an evil computer that shuts off randomly. Maybe she should start hanging out at the Geek Squad desk at Bestbuy to snag herself a new lovey that can fix computer problems.
He's a landscaper or something.
Anyway, she just needs a new power supply. Easy enough to put in.
Another day in paradise!
D14 hasn't had any meltdowns and has been really happy all week. It does my heart good to see her this way after seeing her miserable most of the time.
D18 had some issues with one of her friends and came to me and said "Dad, I just need to vent to someone ok?" and started to unload her troubles. It was very refreshing. I just listened and validated.
I feel like I'm a better dad than I have been in a long time. I almost wish STBX wasn't coming back on Sunday night.
I feel like I'm a better dad than I have been in a long time. I almost wish STBX wasn't coming back on Sunday night.
You probably are.
Why? Is your parenting skills going to suffer because she is around? If so...you better figure out why you let that crap happen. If not? STFU and keep on being a great dad.
God Frank...SHE doesn't affect your life, you LET her affect your life.
Try to look at the good side of the situation. Your depressed, crying, clingy, bed hoping X is teaching her daughters a valuable lesson in what they should not become.
Why? Is your parenting skills going to suffer because she is around? If so...you better figure out why you let that crap happen. If not? STFU and keep on being a great dad.
God Frank...SHE doesn't affect your life, you LET her affect your life.
Not because she affects MY life, because SHE affect D14's Life.
D14 has been so much calmer this week than she has been in a long time. The previous 2 weeks D14 has been a wreck. Now she's sleeping at night, doing her homework on time and much happier.
You kapiech pirate boy? It ain't about me.
Try to look at the good side of the situation. Your depressed, crying, clingy, bed hoping X is teaching her daughters a valuable lesson in what they should not become.
Amen to that. The best part is they GET the lesson.
Touche.
Point well made.
I'll hazard this. Mabye a similar conversation with your D14, about how she reacts to her mom...the way you used to react to her as well as an example.
I'll hazard this. Mabye a similar conversation with your D14, about how she reacts to her mom...the way you used to react to her as well as an example.
Thanks Jack, that's not a bad idea. Being a teenager though my gut tells me that she doesn't have the will or the patience. However, I will give her some advice. Her biggest issue (as is her sisters, D18) is that they both do not like being yelled at or criticized. They both have some emotional mood swings that take a lot of strength NOT to get sucked into the anger, especially because they shut down rather than discuss.
The only example they have is their mother, so their pattern is to avoid. Lately I have been not allowing myself to react when they do this. Instead I continue to tell either of them how they are being emotional and sometimes rude when I am trying to have a discussion. If they don't change their tone I start taking away privileges, calmly, until they stop.
I'm sure there is a reason I was given 2 daughters and a bipolar wife. Probably because I could handle it as long as I took care of myself. And I do.
What Jack said! The way you interact with WAW may well influence how D14 reacts. I'm pretty convinced that the kids follow our example. Also, I think that at 14 D is old enough to have the cause/effect pointed out. Once she sees it, she might be able to deal with it better.
Touche.
Point well made.
I'll hazard this. Mabye a similar conversation with your D14, about how she reacts to her mom...the way you used to react to her as well as an example.
Ohhhhhh!!! A very fine example of why we all bow to the pirate.
Very good point, Jack.
Just wanted to say so.
Over and out.
What Jack said! The way you interact with WAW may well influence how D14 reacts. I'm pretty convinced that the kids follow our example. Also, I think that at 14 D is old enough to have the cause/effect pointed out. Once she sees it, she might be able to deal with it better.
I agree with you. Except I rarely interact with WAW, and if I do, they don't see it. And, if you read my previous posts you will recall that the girls are having their own issues with their mom because she is, as KerryK said so well:
Try to look at the good side of the situation. Your depressed, crying, clingy, bed hoping X is teaching her daughters a valuable lesson in what they should not become.
And that is what they tell me - they cannot deal with the pressure she puts on them by her emotional neediness. I don't ASK them anything except "Hey you seem down, what's bothering you?" and I get the 'dump' of how much Mom did this and how much mom did that.
That's it.
Touche.
Point well made.
I'll hazard this. Mabye a similar conversation with your D14, about how she reacts to her mom...the way you used to react to her as well as an example.
Ohhhhhh!!! A very fine example of why we all bow to the pirate.
Very good point, Jack.
Just wanted to say so.
Over and out.
I'll never bow to the Pirate! Do your worst!
Bwaaa Haa Haaaa!!!!
with your duaghters well being at stake, you CAN and maybe should tell her what her daughters are saying...however perhaps letting your daughters know, or asking them if it would help might be a key piece in doing so.
Look if either one of my boys were feeling down because of my wife's actions, you can bet your assuptions I'm going to say something to her.
Now...how I say something to her depends on the lay of the land.
Remember Bills and Kids, still have to communicate with her about.
Frank....
Your D's have to interact with WAW. So maybe you SHOULD interact with her, and show them an example of how to do it successfully, rather than avoiding it! You are setting the example, and they can't follow it. So they are lost.
By the way, I'm not saying that would be easy!
Frank....
Your D's have to interact with WAW. So maybe you SHOULD interact with her, and show them an example of how to do it successfully, rather than avoiding it! You are setting the example, and they can't follow it. So they are lost.
There isn't any 'example' I could show them. I could talk to WAS every day and it would not have any bearing on how SHE chooses to interact with her daughters. She doesn't talk to me the way she talks to them. She wouldn't dare.
She is not parenting them, she is acting like a teenager and when she's with them she doesn't listen to their needs, but instead tries to tell them what to do. If they rebel she gets emotional and says things like "I don't know why you hate me so much!"
If she's feeling needy or lonely she leans on them. She'll call D18 and want to 'talk' and if D18 is out with her friends and can't talk then WAW will get angry or tell D18 that 'she obviously doesn't care any more since she won't talk to her'. These are actual comments from D18.
D14 says she will come in her room at the condo and want to talk to her while she is in the middle of something and if she doesn't want to talk, WAW will often get upset and start to cry, saying to D14 that she's being unfriendly or other nonsense. These things hurt D14 so she withdraws.
I could go on, but the bottom line is the issues with 'interaction' are issues of emotional pressure. The girls are put under a lot of emotional pressure by their mother to be there when she needs them. When they don't want to she guilts them.
All I can do is provide a 'safe zone' where they know that they won't be subjected to the same emotional pressure when they are with me. I don't 'avoid' her, I just have no reason to deal with her. I could tell her what the girls tell me but that would be a violation of their trust, which I will not do.
She needs therapy. Apparently OM is not adequate as a support person (surprise) so she seems to expect her teenage daughters to take on that role. They don't want to, nor should they have to.
This week has been a real eye opener. With WAW gone and unable to call for a week it's like some burden has been lifted from the girls shoulders. Today at lunch with D18 we had a nice discussion about various things and she said "Dad, it's so nice to talk to to you because you don't get emotional like mom. You have no idea how much pressure she puts on D14 and I when we see her. We have to be carefule what we say so we don't get her upset. She is an emotional wreck"
That's the way it is. They do love her. They respect me.
That makes sense, as much as it can!
So, somehow the D's have to learn that they aren't responsible for WAW's happiness. Sort of like you had to learn the same thing. D18 can probably see it, it sounds like she does. A lot harder for D14.
Yuck.
First things first, don't bow to false idols..it's a biblical thing for the chosen people.
Frank, dude you have been in your head for so long I think you have forgotten how to find your way back to the temporal lobe so you can get out.
If your STBX is saying some of these things to your kids and you are not doing anything about it, there is a problem. You have an obligation as their father to:
1. listen to them
2. Counsel them
3. defend them
As their dad you do not get to pick and choose which of the 3 you want to do and when. You just do them all. If your STBX is laying guilt trips on them, they need to confront her and tell her to stop it. You have to teach your girls to stand up for themselves even if it is their mother. She sure as hell counseled them to confront your alcohol issues. One of teh few kudos I have given her.
If your girls confront her and she continues the negative behavior, then it is your JOB and RESPONSIBILITY to confront her yourself and teach her that you will not tolerate emotional abuse of your girls.
I will also caution you on one other thing here as I am seeing some signs that are sending up some big asss red flags. You have teenage girls, and what are teenage girls great at????
Got it yet?????
tick tock tick tock.......
Thats right Frank, manipulation. Teenage girls can sense that dad seems to be a little more loving and supportive when they bitch about mom. Teenage girls can see that dad overlooks some things when the girls are "upset" by moms behaviors. Teenage girls understand that that playing the sympathy card on dad makes life work for them.
Be careful Frank, I know your a good dad, I get that you are being a concerned father, but I wonder if you may be getting played a bit here.
Ian
That makes sense, as much as it can!
So, somehow the D's have to learn that they aren't responsible for WAW's happiness. Sort of like you had to learn the same thing. D18 can probably see it, it sounds like she does. A lot harder for D14.
Yuck.
Yeah, D18 can get / stay away from her when she's in these 'moods' since she lives with me. D14 is sort of stuck in the messes since she lives with mom most of the time.
Last night D14 just started venting some more about WAW, OM and just the lifestyle she is stuck in. She started getting down on OM because he is a gardener / landscaper and I found myself defending the profession, but not him, because I don't think she should be judging someone based on their profession. How weird is that?
What I've gotten out of her venting is that her mom will drop conversations with D14 if OM comes over, or will disrespect her needs in favor of his needs. She's not mean or angry, just disrespectful
Now, this is what's weird. During this venting I asked her how often these 'things' happen? She says that OM is hardly ever over when D14 is there. Most of these things happened 'months' ago.
So, she's been stewing for a long time.
During this vent her tone of voice wasn't so much hurt as it was angry / sarcastic. And after her vents she seemed a lot more relaxed.
Last night D14 and her friend and I went to see Astro Boy. It was a fun movie. Life is getting better. WAW will bw back tomorrow night.
If your STBX is laying guilt trips on them, they need to confront her and tell her to stop it. You have to teach your girls to stand up for themselves even if it is their mother.
It doesn't come across in my previous posts but they actually DO confront her, all it does is make the situation worse because she is lost in emotions.
As far as them confronting me about my issues, the big difference is that I'm capable of empathizing with them and their feelings so I actually FEEL bad. She doesn't.
Teenage girls can sense that dad seems to be a little more loving and supportive when they bitch about mom. Teenage girls can see that dad overlooks some things when the girls are "upset" by moms behaviors. Teenage girls understand that that playing the sympathy card on dad makes life work for them.
Be careful Frank, I know your a good dad, I get that you are being a concerned father, but I wonder if you may be getting played a bit here.
I understand your concern. Let me state that they don't get any special privileges and I continue to enforce my rules.
D14 still has to get off the computer to do her homework even if she doesn't want to. In fact, the past few days she has been initiating homework time on her own and then coming to show me that it's done.
They don't get any passes that they didn't get before. IN fact, I enforce more rules than I did when WAW was here because I don't have her contradicting me. I'm much more strict than she ever was.
Thanks Ian.
D14 made D18 and I a nice breakfast this morning for her class project. It feels so much like a family here now.
THis morning I was thinking "Why is it we still love the WAS, even after they have found someone else and moved on?"
My STBX doesn't have any desire to bring our family back together. So why does it take so long for us to give up the 'hope'?
I need to work on that.
Today STBX comes back from her trip. D14 will go with her after school. It was a nice week with both girls home.
We'll probably get together tuesday / wednesday to sign the divorce agreements. My birthday is this week. Life goes on.
Well...
I'd suggest telling her that the first week of November would be perfect for signatures, as you don't want to mar your future birthdays.
Unless, you actually see and believe this is a gift to yourself.
THis morning I was thinking "Why is it we still love the WAS, even after they have found someone else and moved on?"
My STBX doesn't have any desire to bring our family back together. So why does it take so long for us to give up the 'hope'?
I read a book after I moved out, "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolles. It was about staying in the moment. Another chapter, though, was on relationships. His point is that many, many people don't actually love their spouse, they are addicted to being in a relationship.
I've been trying to figure that out. Do I really love my W or do I love the family unit, knowing I don't need to make plans every weekend, having someone to talk to -- no matter how cold she was -- at the end of the day?
Think about that. Is it the family ideal you miss or the actual person?
Unless, you actually see and believe this is a gift to yourself.
I told her at the beginning of the month that I would do everything I could to make sure she got her divorce by the end of October.
That's a promise I will keep. It doesn't matter that it's my birthday. When she had her 'soulmate' affair in 2005 it was right about now. She came back from her massage retreat about now, took a few days to decide she had to get divorced because she had met her 'soulmate'.
Ruined that birthday too. Maybe following through with the divorce proceedings will help me to feel like I have some control here. Regardless, I am making a stand for MY life and for the lives of my daughters.
I will have a better life. I deserve it.
I read a book after I moved out, "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolles. It was about staying in the moment. Another chapter, though, was on relationships. His point is that many, many people don't actually love their spouse, they are addicted to being in a relationship.
I've been trying to figure that out. Do I really love my W or do I love the family unit, knowing I don't need to make plans every weekend, having someone to talk to -- no matter how cold she was -- at the end of the day?
Think about that. Is it the family ideal you miss or the actual person?
I have that audio book. It's good stuff.
Well, it's coming up on 22 months since the bomb, 14 months since she moved out because she was having an affair with OM. I don't remember what it was like to be a 'family unit' with her. I just remember her smile sometimes. I don't see her very often any more. It's better that way.
I think I still love her, the 'her' that lives in my memory. Not the one I see now. She's not a bad person, just lost.
You know...
fukc the promise to her Frank.
Do this for you. If this isn't going to be something that screws up any other birthday, then do it for you. But Not because you promised her you would.
You know...
fukc the promise to her Frank.
Do this for you. If this isn't going to be something that screws up any other birthday, then do it for you. But Not because you promised her you would.
I am doing it for me. I made that 'promise' to her when she was pissin me off in the beginning of the month. As is "Don't worry I'll make sure you get your f'ing divorce by the end of this month"
And I will make sure. For me.
I think I still love her, the 'her' that lives in my memory. Not the one I see now. She's not a bad person, just lost.
A friend of mine at work talked to me about this. He was married to his first wife for eight years. He's been married to his second wife for more than 20. His kids are with the second one.
He said everything about his second marriage is better than his first one. Nicer lady, less stress, everything in every way.
Yet he still thinks about his first wife at least once a week, sometimes several times a week. He says the feelings never totally go away.
He said everything about his second marriage is better than his first one. Nicer lady, less stress, everything in every way.
Yet he still thinks about his first wife at least once a week, sometimes several times a week. He says the feelings never totally go away.
Yeah, I sometimes wonder if STBX thinks about me, the brokenness of our family. I realize that I'll never stop. At least I don't hate her, nor do I feel guilty for my part in the breakup. I just accept that this is the was it is.
I'm feeling kind of down. D14 goes to her therapist in 1/2 hour and then back to the condo to live with her mom. I'm missing her already.
I sometimes wonder if STBX thinks about me, the brokenness of our family. I realize that I'll never stop. At least I don't hate her, nor do I feel guilty for my part in the breakup. I just accept that this is the was it is.
I'd like to say yes, she will. But who knows. There are some success stories on the board ... and a lot of others who fade away and we know what happened to them.
A coworker is dating a 24-year-old who has taken a liking to -- not in any romantic way. She thinks I look like Lance Armstrong. She gave me a bunch of her plates and silverware when I was moving out because she was moving to grad school.
So I'm over there and I meet her mom, who knows my situation. We start talking. This lady out of the blue tells her husband she wants a D 10 years ago. Totally blindsides him -- at least I saw mine coming.
She said the hardest part was getting through her H's despair. Once he accepted it, everything was fine. Turns out her ex is a guy I've known for 12 years and he's a wonderful guy.
She wraps up the story saying she wished she didn't feel the way she did. It would have been better for everyone financially.
So in this case, 10 years later, she hasn't looked back with any regrets -- or at least none that she betrayed me.
That's a depressing story but necessary. I alternate between I KNOW SOMEDAY she'll realize she made a mistake and thinking the fog may never lift -- at least here on Earth.
STBX picked up D14 a couple hours ago. I helped D14 carry her stuff out to the car. I didn't say anything, gave D14 a hug and said I see her later and turned to walk away. As I'm walking away I hear STBX say a polite "Thank you Frank".
I turned around and said "We had a lot of fun this week" and she says "That's what I heard".
I miss D14 already. I see her every day after school but it was sure nice to have her here every morning and every night.
She said the hardest part was getting through her H's despair. Once he accepted it, everything was fine. Turns out her ex is a guy I've known for 12 years and he's a wonderful guy.
That's really what it's all about. Getting through our despair. It seems like a lot of walkaways just 'go' and don't look back.
Been thinking about things last night. Talked to my DB friend Richie and realized that it's been 4 years since the first bomb.
I DB'd my heart out and we 'reconciled' but my needs were never met by her, I was always the one who put energy into the marriage and she was happy to be cared for.
I ended up crashing, turning to alcohol to feel better, and withdrew from life. Eventually OM #2 showed up January 2008 and the end of the marriage after OM #3 in August 2008.
I realize now that when things got really bad, I came to the rescue and 'saved' the marriage the first time. But she didn't ever try or do anything to make it work. Instead, when things get bad she goes into self preservation mode and does whatever she want s to make HER happy, regardless of the effects on the kids or me.
I'm probably going to be better off without her even though it doesn't feel that way. I think I'm fooling myself if I believe she will 'realize' what a mistake this is and change. The evidence just isn't there.
Regardless, my life is worth something. I have two great daughters who love me and I love them. There's a lot to live for and I think sometimes we forget that.
Just rambling a bit, wondering when I'll actually be divorced.
Happy 4 Year Anniversary.
Nice rehash of the past...again.
Somewhere inside Frank the Wolf is wondering when he can get out of Frank the Rabbit.
: )
Love ya.
Mean it.
I know you do Jack. The Wolf is coming out.
And actually, I posted the 'rehash' to say that I have had enough. I have been abused enough.
Picked up D14 from school. Instead of coming to the house with me she decided she wanted to go to the condo. Said she 'spent all last week at the house'. So I took her there. Not sure what that's about but I'm not going to dwell on it.
Haven't heard from the Legal Aid person or STBX regarding the divorce paperwork today. I was going to send an E-mail saying when I was available today / tomorrow but I think I'll wait.
Frank - it's OK to be sad. It's OK to rehash - as long as that's part of your dealingwithitandgettingoverit work.
I like how you acknowledge that you are holding on to an ideal of what you would like your wife and your family to be like. You're identified that you did the stuff that needed to be done the first time around, made a safe place for your wife to come back to, but it wasn't enough because she wasn't grown.
Marriages are important and obviously worth saving if it's possible. But you are important too. You are important enough to make choices about your life that might one day include the choice to be single, rather than partnered with a damaged person. In tact families are obviously the best place for children to grow and mature - but intact families where the partners are at different spiritual and emotional maturity levels can be equally distructive for kids ... they just live with 100% dysfunction all the time, rather than a moderately dysfunctional parent some of the time.
You don't really want to be a woman's care taker do you? wouldn't you like to have a partner who is willing to meet you half way?
You will be better off when you let go of the sadness and let go of the ansgst that you feel you've failed in some way because you are getting divorced.
You haven't failed ... you're just travelling a road you didn't expect. That's not wrong, just different. And it's OK.
Thanks Virginia, you're right on about the dysfunction. One of my DB friends pointed out that if W and I were to 'reconcile' now, both of my daughters would be devastated because they see their moms dysfunction and expect it to destroy me again and again.
Its ok to rehash as long as Frank doesn't get sucked back into the past.
Its ok to rehash as long as Frank doesn't get sucked back into the past.
No more of that.
I think I'm fooling myself if I believe she will 'realize' what a mistake this is and change. The evidence just isn't there.
Yes. I keep holding on to the thought that someday W will realize what we had was worth saving.
I'm realizing now that that just gives her continued emotional power over me.
What if I rebuild my life, find a new love, realize my dreams, help my girls grow into successful, confident women with their own careers and families and then, on my deathbed, when STBXW comes to see me, I ask her if she knows now she made a mistake and she replies, 'no, I'm happy with how things turned out.'
If I let her, that'd crush me. Better to work toward not caring what goes on in her head. If she comes to you someday and said I know now I made a mistake. Deal with it then. If it never happens, well the fog will lift in Heaven when God asks her why she broke the covenant?
Clinging...
Really that sounds desperate you need a new name. I dub thee...
Wiley Coyote...Super Genius.
So Wiley,
What if you
did rebuild your life. Find a new love. Realize your dreams. Your daughters are successful women with wonderful careers with wonderful children and husbands who treat them with the respect they deserve. And on your death bed your X-wife did come.
My question would be...WHY would she come?
My next question which is even more important, is why would you even ask her that, since it indicates that your new wife and everything you did with her was just a sham?
The saving grace is in your next sentence.
Bingo!
If you let her.
Yes, rebuilding our lives, or rather BUILDING new lives is our key to being happy. And living in the NOW. Today.
Well no divorce paper signing today. Still haven't heard from STBX or the Paralegal. Tomorrow's my birthday, maybe I'll get a birthday present!
Dont think of the what could have beens on this birthday.
Just look ahead to next years birthday in which you could be in love with someone new and be receiving one of the best gifts of all - birthday sex!
IF we lived near,
I'd buy you a steak and a beer.
IF we lived near, and IF I were rich,
We go to Vegas, buy you a steak and a beer, and staple $1000 dollars to your jacket and see you the next morning.
Since however, neither is currently true.
Happy Birthday Frank.
Beyond my well wishes I can really only offer you this.
IF
by:Rudyard Kipling
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
You have part of your old path to walk, and on it you will always find your feet, that path is fatherhood.
But you also are walking a new path Frank, and your feet will be on it legally once your sign some paperwork. I hope your head and eyes are also on this path Frank.
I will try to call you later today...but really, it's your birthday...you better not be home. : )
Thanks Kerry and Jack. I am home, and I have meetings today. Just another day.
However, I am on my new path. And that makes all the difference.
Happy Birthday Amigo
(((((hugs)))))
(((Frank)))
Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday Frank.
Best wishes for the new year.
feliz compleanos Frank.....
Thanks all.
At about 3 pm I got a text from STBXW
"Happy Birthday!"
I didn't respond because it makes no sense for someone who has caused so much damage to myself and my daughters to wish me a happy birthday unless it's to relieve some guilt on her part. I don't want to validate that for her. I don't think she's sincere.
Also haven't gotten any Divorce paperwork signing requests still.
Still no divorce paper signing request. Two weeks ago she had to have it done, then she was 'too busy getting ready for her trip. Now what? She's been back for 5 days.
Still no divorce paper signing request. Two weeks ago she had to have it done, then she was 'too busy getting ready for her trip. Now what? She's been back for 5 days.
AND....
I am just guessing but... I bet you have thought about it each and every day....
Stop Frank, Don't you think it's time to just let whatever is going to be, be? Your gonna drive yourself nuts with this stuff...
Ian
Still no divorce paper signing request. Two weeks ago she had to have it done, then she was 'too busy getting ready for her trip. Now what? She's been back for 5 days.
AND....
I am just guessing but... I bet you have thought about it each and every day....
Stop Frank, Don't you think it's time to just let whatever is going to be, be? Your gonna drive yourself nuts with this stuff...
Ian
I'm already nuts.
Seriously, you're right. I accept that what will be, will be.
One of the important things to remember is that, as a man among men, I am not expected to be perfect. I am expected to be the spiritual leader of my family and to do that I must rely upon other men for support.
The healthiest men on this board are those who have learned this lesson. I learned it 4 years ago during DB / OM #1 and it healed my family. Then I forgot it. Now, I am learning it again for good.
You keep talking like this and I'm thinking you're going to be sitting in a sweat tent beating a drum with some other guys...
You aren't expected to be.
You are.
Boom, Boom, BOOM, BOOM, Boom, Boom, BOOM, BOOM....
Well today I found out that the chest pains I've had since Sunday morning, when they were really bad, are probably Angina. So now I am taking nitroglycerin patches. I don't have insurance because I can't afford it and now I'm really not going to be able to get affordable insurance.
I guess I could let it get me down but I've already shed the tears of despair I felt when I got this news. I wasn't going to get the medicine, thinking I can hold out and get insurance before anything goes on my record that I have heart problems, but FaithIsBelieving pointed out that if I'm wrong, who will take care of my kids? STBX? Hardly.
Warriors don't give up, they keep fighting the good fight.
And they do NOT feel sorry for themselves.
I am sorry Frank.....
So you have insurance for your wife and kids and not yourself?
Hmmmmm.................
I am sorry Frank.....
So you have insurance for your wife and kids and not yourself?
Hmmmmm.................
When we went through the 'Soulmate' affair 4 years ago I was on anti depressants. Had insurance - Cobra Plan - and at the end of the affair and reconciliation I was off the anti depressants but Cobra also expired. I had to re-apply with Blue Cross and they asked about the anti depressants. My stupid Psychologist wrote a letter saying I was in 'severe depression' but was off them now. Because she said that they raised my premium - just for me - to $500/month and said I had to be on the anti depressants for 3 years before they would lower it.
She should have said it was situational anxiety / depression and it would have been fine. But it was too late.
I Pay $280 / month for STBX and 2 girls.
Got a call from our legal aid person. STBX has arranged with legal aid lady this morning to have signing this friday. I need to go see Legal Aid lady tomorrow to make sure everything is in order.
Last night STBX called me to ask me if D14 was here at the house because she didn't answer her cell. I told her that she was at the condo because I was just on the phone with her.
STBX was angry because she said "I told her to call you and go over to your house because she hasn't seen you for 4 days because she has been sick".
I said that it was fine, and that D14 asked me to pick up some Thai food and bring it to her as she is still feeling sick. STBX said that she would 'yell at her' later when she got home.
I haven't seen or talked to STBX for about 8 days.
So, I waited about 15 minutes and then went to the Thai food place to get D14 what she wanted. As I was driving through the narrow parking lot STBX's minivan backs out of a parking space as I approach it so I have to stop. She then drives towards me and as she drives by she sort of smiles and waves to me.
I just stay neutral and give a short wave back. I couldn't help but think that she looked like a ghost to me.
I thought it was interesting that she went to the Thai place for food for herself before she went back to work. She knew I was going there.
When I got to the condo D14 showed me some paintings she was working on and told me that she was feeling better and going to school tomorrow. That's good for her as she misses school.
I noticed a large picture of STBX and OM on the fridge that wasn't there before. Face shots of them together.
It doesn't hurt much any more.
She might have gotten hungry for Thai just talking about it...man I know I am.
Sorry about seeing the picture, in the fact that this is her life now Frank.
So what are your plans Friday afternoon? What are you doing for yourself after the paperwork?
Frank, sorry to hear about the heart problem. Are the patches expensive? Are there things you can do like exercise and diet that can help get rid of the problem? Maybe you could be a poster child for getting Obamacare passed.
I have been in my X's place just to see the kids rooms. I wont go in anymore. I also am going to limit my XW from coming in my place. It works out better in the long run to prevent emotional memories from creeping back.
Will you be divorced following the signing or do you have the California waiting period of 6 months?
Frank, sorry to hear about the heart problem. Are the patches expensive? Are there things you can do like exercise and diet that can help get rid of the problem? Maybe you could be a poster child for getting Obamacare passed.
only $45 for 30 days and you don't have to take them all the time. I can make it 'better' by lowering my cholesterol and exercising.
I have been in my X's place just to see the kids rooms. I wont go in anymore. I also am going to limit my XW from coming in my place. It works out better in the long run to prevent emotional memories from creeping back.
Yeah, I'm a real emotional mess today with the signing coming up. I know STBX is not happy and that this is just wrong in so many ways. But it seems to be necessary.
Will you be divorced following the signing or do you have the California waiting period of 6 months?
We've already been through the 6 months so it'll be about 3 weeks for the judge to sign the papers to finalize.
I can make it 'better' by lowering my cholesterol and exercising.
Sounds like a f-ing plan! The new Frank the one women pay money to be with. I'll be your 'manager'.
I know STBX is not happy and that this is just wrong in so many ways. But it seems to be necessary.
Oh Religious Figure on a crutch!
I read this wrong right?
Right? Come on man...cause I am reading it. She is unhappy, if only she woke up and could see I can make her happy, this is so wrong.
...
I know your emotional man.
This simply IS what it is.
and I am going to sound so f-ng mean to you right now.
I don't want her to 'wake up' and come to her senses until you Frank are you. Get fixed and then fight dirty for her for the rest of your life...but I have money that when you fix yourself, you aren't going to want to fight.
You said wolf...where is it?
Sounds like a f-ing plan! The new Frank the one women pay money to be with. I'll be your 'manager'.
Figures, you're always looking to make a buck....
I don't want her to 'wake up' and come to her senses until you Frank are you. Get fixed and then fight dirty for her for the rest of your life...but I have money that when you fix yourself, you aren't going to want to fight.
You said wolf...where is it?
I don't want to fight at all. That's been one of the problems of our cycling - I fight, she doesn't. As I recall your W had to fight FOR YOU. As Deida says, "Want someone who wants you". I'm worth fighting for. She has no courage.
Yip! Yip! Yip! Owoooooooo!
Yip! Yip! Yip! Owoooooooo!
Cute. And a coyote, which wolves eat.
I can make it 'better' by lowering my cholesterol and exercising.
Just a minor correction...
I
WILL make it 'better' by lowering my cholesterol and exercising.
Take it slow at first on the increase of exercising.
Yip! Yip! Yip! Owoooooooo!
Cute. And a coyote, which wolves eat.
A young wolf makes those sounds...
So now dear Frankie, the focus needs to be on you.
Your health is whats most important right now, not what the crazy lady is doing out on the streets of L.A.
New diet, light excercise, deep breaths and no stress!
(((((((hugs)))))))
Our legal aid person has the paperwork done today so I'm going to sign them in the next hour or so.
And you didn't even have to chew off your own leg.
Strength Frank.
As Larry the Cable Guy says... Get Er Done!
I will not be signing in STBX's presence and oddly I'll be signing first. She can stand there alone when she signs after I have done it, after all she is getting what she wants.
So, no busted divorce. It's sad on so many levels.
But, my daughters are happier lately and I'll be happier also.
Just remember Frank, it is just a piece of paper. Your marriage ended quite some time ago.
I dont even remember signing my dissolution of marriage and the day it was official was just an ordinary day.
Move forward in your quest my young warrior.
What for dinner?
You going to Man Grill something? Offer up burnt offerings to the sky god? : ) Celebrate?
All done. She'll sign tomorrow.
No celebrating Jack. This is a sad day for all involved.
Time to keep moving forward.
As you wish.
Confident, positive attitude. I deserve a great life!
I'm sorry Frank...
I didn't mean to come off as rude.
I was laughing at his description of grilling out.
As you wish.
Confident, positive attitude. I deserve a great life!
Yes I do. I just don't have the 'celebrate the death of the family' in me today. Not a judgment on you. Just feeling sad, that's all.
You're a good friend. But you never call.
But then as Bobcat Golthwaite says:
Animals are our friends!
But they won't pick you up at the airport!!!!!
Don't ask me why this has anything to do with my post other than it's funny.
I'm sorry Frank...
I didn't mean to come off as rude.
I was laughing at his description of grilling out.
You weren't rude, I totally got what you meant and I thought Jacks description was pretty funny too. Nobody needs to feel badly here. And Trapt, keep coming back to my thread, I could use the man energy you bring to the table.
It's just not how I feel today. No, I'm not a wuss. I just grieve for my daughters who have a broken family. I went through 2 divorces with my dad. It sucks to be a kid in this kind of mess.
Jack, if you had gotten divorced I think you'd feel the same way about your boys. You're family was lucky that their parents got their shiit together before D-Day.
I will have a great life. And I'll make sure my daughters understand that a real man goes through adversity with honor.
I went through 2 divorces with my dad. It sucks to be a kid in this kind of mess.
I think I should explain more about these divorces.
When I was 5, my mom divorced my dad. In the 60's she wasn't really able to keep me so my (mean) paternal grandmother got custody of me. Not my dad.
Dad and I lived with his mom dad and brothers.
As I understand it, my mother came to visit me and when she did she was treated like Shiit. Eventually she stopped coming but would stand on the corner near our house so she could see me. As a result my grandmother kept me in the house to spite her.
I never saw her again. All I ever heard in my childhood was what a whore she was. As I was told later, she died when I was 17
Mother #2 was ok for a couple years. Then she decided that my Dad's cousin was her real love and ran off with him. That broke up the family again but with 2 more kids.
She stayed with him but I was put in the position of 'snitch'. I withdrew.
People do a lot to screw up their kids.
I will not.
well, bye all. I need a week off. See you then.
Take a week off Frank, you deserve it.
I want to impart upon you one thing, because you are wrong about one thing.
I would not have felt bad for my boys. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have built and was in process of building the best life I could provide for them. Feeling bad for them, meant I would have let them feel bad for themselves, and I see that leading to a life of excuses.
I felt bad for them during it, when I was feeling bad for myself. But not after I starting playing the cards that I was dealt.
Take a week off Frank, you deserve it.
I want to impart upon you one thing, because you are wrong about one thing.
I would not have felt bad for my boys. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have built and was in process of building the best life I could provide for them. Feeling bad for them, meant I would have let them feel bad for themselves, and I see that leading to a life of excuses.
I felt bad for them during it, when I was feeling bad for myself. But not after I starting playing the cards that I was dealt.
Good point. Thanks.
No, I'm not taking a week off. That implies wallowing in my pity party. You're right Jack, I need to start playing the cards that I have been dealt with no excuses.
Thanks Jack.
I am wondering if the MLC board is where I belong. I don't even know if STBX is MLC or just tired of the crappy life we were living.
Probably should go to 'surviving' soon.
Post where YOU want Frank.
And your welcome, I am glad that you see it that way about the cards. : )
I vote for Surviving. MLC is for people trying to cope and figure out their MLC spouses. You should not be thinking much about her anymore.
You're right Jack, I need to start playing the cards that I have been dealt with no excuses.
I'm in. It's your lead.....
I vote for Surviving. MLC is for people trying to cope and figure out their MLC spouses. You should not be thinking much about her anymore.
I tried that. There is just too many damn good people here in the mlc forum.
I vote for Surviving. MLC is for people trying to cope and figure out their MLC spouses. You should not be thinking much about her anymore.
I tried that. There is just too many damn good people here in the mlc forum.
Yeah, I know what you mean. And I'm not really so sure it's MLC any more. I'm confused.
Yeah, I know what you mean. And I'm not really so sure it's MLC any more. I'm confused.
No matter....It changes nothing as far as what you need to do at this point.
Wanna know what is so damn beautiful about those cards you've been delt??
YOU get to decide what type of hand you're holding. YOU get to determine how to play them.
The problem with the surviving forum is that whenever you make your first post there, everyone seems to want you to buy drinks for them. Pretty rough crowd there.
Wanna know what is so damn beautiful about those cards you've been delt??
YOU get to decide what type of hand you're holding. YOU get to determine how to play them.
Yeah, just wondering how long before the hurt goes away.
Hey Jack, how long was your W's affair? Just wondering. My STBX is coming up on 14 months. She sometimes seems unhappy about her life and OM is not a 'man' per se, more of a weak willed man-boy.
Just wondering.
Why are you wondering Frank?
My two cents: Two nights ago I went to my youngest's (S7) parent-teacher conference. Yes, XW was there also. The teacher's parting comment - You know, he's just a really, really happy kid.
Divorce doesn't have to be an end or a death sentence. It's all in how you play the cards you're dealt.
Strength and honor, Frank.
Why are you wondering Frank?
Stupidly comparing notes I guess.
Frank -
Do you really want
this guy to pay you a visit?
At times you seem like you want to move on, but yet you keep pondering about your ex wife. Stop it!!!!
Quit living in the past of what once was. You wife is lost and it does not matter why. She is a slut. She shacks up with losers. You can do so much better.
Divorce doesn't have to be an end or a death sentence. It's all in how you play the cards you're dealt.
Strength and honor, Frank.
I guess for me it's the confusion that comes from some of her comments to me. Sometimes it seems like she is missing the 'family life'. Sometimes I think she misses talking to me because I avoid talking to her.
I know that she's not good for me because she hasn't faced her own demons, instead applied a band aid in the form of OM, divorce, etc.
I do need to heal and live life without her in it. For my own sake and that of my daughters. It's really hitting me hard today. I'm an overly sensitive person.
Quit living in the past of what once was. You wife is lost and it does not matter why. She is a slut. She shacks up with losers. You can do so much better.
Yeah, well she'd say that my depression and drinking problems justify her trying to find happiness elsewhere.
Everyone has their perceptions. But I do agree she has made the poorest choices possible in our situation.
Frank,
Healing takes time. You're gonna have good days and bad days. No getting around it. Eventually, the good days will start to outnumber the bad.
Hang in there. Life gets better if you let it. Trust me.
Hang in there. Life gets better if you let it. Trust me.
Thanks Drew
Drew and Kerry are both fantastic examples to aim for Frank.
I am going to suppose here.
I am also not trying to be mean with you, this is just what I feel from what you are currently writing.
That right now, you're hoping that she notices the pain blanket you have wrapped yourself up in and it makes her re-think what she is doing.
If we are going to suffer, we can suffer with quiet dignity; or we can suffer looking for attention.
We can also choose not to suffer.
I worry, truely about your cycles, and your seeming determination to suffer.
Frank,
That's the vibe I get also, and let me tell ya, I've been there, it ain't pretty, and it doesn't work.
If I might Jack, I think our stories are somewhat similar in the following way. We both came to the point that we were done. I mean DONE.
In Jack's case, his wife came back to him to try and work things out, he gave her one chance, she took it, and things worked out.
In my case, my XW sent out signals that maybe, just maybe she regretted her decision. And this took quite some time. And I had moved on. And I'm better for it.
I guess my point is that nothing changed in our situations until we moved on with our lives. You can't change someone else, you can only change you. Not to be corny, but it's like the saying that if you love something let it go. If it comes back, it's your's forever. (?) If it doesn't, it was never your's in the first place.
Drew and Kerry are both fantastic examples to aim for Frank.
I am going to suppose here.
I am also not trying to be mean with you, this is just what I feel from what you are currently writing.
That right now, you're hoping that she notices the pain blanket you have wrapped yourself up in and it makes her re-think what she is doing.
If we are going to suffer, we can suffer with quiet dignity; or we can suffer looking for attention.
We can also choose not to suffer.
I worry, truly about your cycles, and your seeming determination to suffer.
I actually thought about this earlier today while talking to a friend. You're right on with the 'suffering' part. I'm still punishing myself for MY perceived wrongs. I STILL don't let myself recognize her part, her wrongs.
I WILL overcome this.
You said this to Drew a long time ago:
When I went Dark, I told her this is not for you this is for me, this is my armor against you and the stupidity of hoping you come back.
I've been pretty dark lately. Putting my armor BACK on now.
I guess my point is that nothing changed in our situations until we moved on with our lives. You can't change someone else, you can only change you. Not to be corny, but it's like the saying that if you love something let it go. If it comes back, it's your's forever. (?) If it doesn't, it was never your's in the first place.
Yep, and I know this. I've just been wearing my 'little boy' pants waaayy too much lately.
Jack told me something else that remains with me to this day:
"Let your anger be your armor, not your sword."
To you I would say:
"Let your armor be your shield, not your sword."
My take on 'wrongs'.
Fix them, use them as examples of what not to do and do better.
You dwell on them, and they beat you.
You truely accidentally kill a man...
You can beat yourself up for it for the rest of your life and contribute nothing to anything.
Or you make ammends to the best of your ability. You buy groceries for the family, you put aside money for his children's college fund.
That is definately an apples vs hand gernades example, but it should drive the point home.
STBX didn't like some changes that were made. For the most part she thinks that even though that I have said I will take on our huge debt, and pay her $200/mo to help with groceries for her and D14, she want's $700/mo because she lives in a small Condo and I live in the 'big house'.
Never mind that it's all I can do to keep it out of foreclosure and service the debts we had, much of which are back taxes.
Her argument is "the taxes should have been paid on time, it's not her fault". She's also upset because I live in the 'big house' while she lives in a one bedroom condo. Never mind that I'm struggling with much higher overhead and foreclosure.
The California state 'calculator' says she gets $1000/month 'just because' of my gross income. Doesn't matter what I have in costs. That's the beauty of these calculators.
I'm being advised to agree to the $500/month because it will end when D14 is 18 and she's not asking for alimony. And, I know STBX buys clothing for her and other stuff so it's going to a good cause - D14.
Man, she feel so entitled because "Frank didn't take care of things."
The problem is California can screw me much worse.
If you can get screwed much worse...then sign the papers that don't screw you as much.
Frank,
Sometimes you have to give to gain. Having an X wife who does not think of her X husband as cheap can be a benefit.
$200 a month seems rather low if D14 spends considerable time with her mother.
I know our states differ in cost of living, but my state calculator has me for about $580 a month and that is for both kids combined. I make about 7 times more than my X and have the kids 50% of the time and pay for external child care which can be up to $400 a month. She does tend to have the kids more in the summer since she does not work, and as such, I end up paying $600 a month.
I would offer $500 a month. If she does not take that, then I would accept the $700 a month. It is much better than having her get a lawyer and fighting it out to possible court where you could also get alimony thrown in. If you can get her to sign now with minimal cost with no alimony in the judgment, that is a good thing.
Now I'm angry. F"ing angry
Anger can be a great way to heal and move forward. But you are at a delicate point in the final D process where anger will not work for you right now.
It might be time to review some of Sun Tzu's "Art of War" - you are trying to win a war without having to fight a battle. There are psychological means that you can utilize to get a new age spiritual whacko to sign a truce (ie divorce papers).
You are both getting caught up in things that really are not relevant to the question... her on the "big house", and you on the expenses. It's turning it into an emotional argument rather than an intellectual one.
Yeah, that's what I decided.
It might be time to review some of Sun Tzu's "Art of War" - you are trying to win a war without having to fight a battle. There are psychological means that you can utilize to get a new age spiritual whacko to sign a truce (ie divorce papers).
Got it on my desk. She was amicable to the $500 but wanted me to also pay her part of the health insurance ($104/month)
You are both getting caught up in things that really are not relevant to the question... her on the "big house", and you on the expenses. It's turning it into an emotional argument rather than an intellectual one.
If you do the math, in a community property state she should be paying 1/2 of our back taxes with me. She isn't. She isn't paying her quarterly taxes right now either.
Her gross take home is $2k/month.
Fine. Could be much worse and she's desperate right now. Hopefully she will accept the compromise and we can move on.
Funny how when we were living in the 'nice house' I bought for her and the kids she didn't worry about things because she knew I would always find a way to make it work.
Even now, I find a way.
$200 a month seems rather low if D14 spends considerable time with her mother.
I just wanted to point out that I am forgiving her of 1/2 of our $60,000 IRS back taxes.
She just wants more because it was 'my fault' we got behind in taxes.
Kapiech?
Child support (and parenting plan) should be calculated separately and not be part of the other financial equations. Remember, you or your XW incomes can change in the future and child support values can also get changed. Do you have something written down about college expenses?
The other stuff is assets, which includes debt, retirement and possible alimony which all needs to be negotiated. You get the house, but also have the huge tax burdeon and debt. I dont know if that is a fair deal or not. Do you get to claim the kids for tax purposes and tax credits?
Just remember, at $2K a month income, that is not much for her to survive on where you live. I doubt any court would assign debt to her.
Sometimes the free legal aid people dont get all the details and you dont want to have to be in court a few years from now for something gone wrong in the divorce dissolution document.
Frank, trust me, I too got raked over the coals and it felt like I was rewarding my wife for having an affair and breaking apart my family. And to top it off, she lives with a very rich guy and she was still fighting me for alimony. I may have won in court - my lawyer said 50/50 chance on alimony being awarded her. If she had been awarded alimony, I would have been paying at least $1000 a month for 5 years in addition to the child support. I did not want to take that chance and instead bought her out of alimony to the tune of $40,000. I was able to refinance my house to pay for that and the additional division of assets. In the end, I feel like I came out pretty well. I still have good equity in my company which she did not fight for and I am surviving.
Kerry, I get what you are saying. I figure if she only takes child support to the tune of $500/month plus health insurance, over 4 years I will end up paying 25k or so. That's as good as it gets.
Well, no news tonight. beeyotch
Winner Winner. Chicken Dinner. $25K over 4 years is a drop in the bucket. Imagine how much you were paying when she lived with you. Maybe your wife was not high maintenance.
I know in my case, my wife always needed to go out for dinner. She needed to hire my brother and his wife to clean our house every 2 weeks even though I was able to help. I also bought her lots of things like diamonds and guns (what a combination
). She shopped compulsively. Basically, she was high maintenance.
She wasn't high maintenance. Except emotionally.
No, I see this as an adequate deal. House will likely be foreclosed anyway so it irritates me that she uses it as an excuse.
I would not have felt bad for my boys. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have built and was in process of building the best life I could provide for them. Feeling bad for them, meant I would have let them feel bad for themselves, and I see that leading to a life of excuses.
First things first, you wouldnt have let your boys see you feel bad for them, but you would have. Sometimes the all mighty Oz makes statements based on how they would like to believe they would have acted, reality is a very different thing. Not trying to piss on your fire here pirate, just pointing out that sometimes we speak of which we don't know and it comes off as demeaning.
Frank, I get you. I understand completely how you felt that day and it is completely normal. Having completed this process recently and speaking from actual experience it is a very sad day. Even if you recognize that it is what is best, it is the ending of a vow you believe you made for life, in my opinion its perfectly fine to feel that for a day or so. Just do it in private and don't let your feelings impact your kids.
Now, the other part of this.
You were the bread winner in your family. Your $60k tax debt was your responsibility. How long would she have to earn $2k a month to incur that kind of debt. You argue over things and it will come back to haunt you.
California enforces alimony. California enforces community property. The costs that you could be looking at are astronomical. I guarantee the only reason you are getting out this cheap is because the attorney that she has consulted with has assured her that your taking on the IRS debt is a reasonable offset to alimony payments for the 4 years. She uses the house as an excuse because a lawyer advised her to.
It sucks, and it is bullshitt, and in the state of California a man is dog meat. So you deal with it and press on. The child support set between Carrie and I by the way is $390 a month. IN Memphis, TN. you are coming out just fine on this deal.
Before you come back at me wondering about why I say she has consulted an attorney. It just sounds like it from what she is arguing over, from her previous actions I don't believe she would have the fortitude on her own to stand up and fight.
Ian
Ian,
I agree with what you say. What irks me is paying her money to reward her for being an adulteress.
However, it is what it is.
Ian,
I agree with what you say. What irks me is paying her money to reward her for being an adulteress.
However, it is what it is.
Don't think of it as rewarding her for being a adulteress. Look at it as what is expected due to your success in the past.
Ian
I spent a wonderful afternoon with D18. We went shopping for bird related things as she is raising canaries right now.
It was great to listen to her discuss genetics and other things and go on about how certain cage types are required and food and nests, etc...
We already have them and the cage they are in was adequate but not optimal. So we went looking around for stores that would have the right one.
A few weeks ago we had an argument over something trivial and she had told me that she was upset mostly because I spend time with D14 and buy her things and don't spend time with her. It's stuck in my head and as soon as the chance came up to do some 'shopping' and spend quality time I took it.
D18 and I also talked about moving. I've been resisting it but the reality is that this house costs too much to maintain. It's big and has a pool and in California electricity rates are twice that of other states. Plus, it's been in foreclosure for a while, they just haven't done anything about it yet.
And, the memories of this place are getting to us both.
I realize today that my marriage has been dead a long time. I mean,STBXW has had OM for over a year and there is no end in sight. Yes, she sometimes cries in front of me, or changes her pick up method for D14 to one where she comes to the door instead of waiting in her car.
I'm dark, for my sake. I don't want to lay eyes on her if I can help it. The 'her' I knew is dead.
I won't shirk my responsibilities. I am responsible for our debt. I just want this to be over. I want to be as strong as Jack was. I'm going to spend some time today thinking about how I want the rest of my life to look - with only my two daughters in it.
Frank
I think you spending time with your daughters and having them open up to you is awesome.
I agree, I think dark is great for you.
We all want this to be over with, but the fact is, it takes lots of time. There is no getting around it.
A word of caution. We all are very different. Our situations, circumstances, personalities, the challenges we face and the demons we must battle, are all different.
How about being as strong as Frank can possibly be? How about striving to be the best Frank that you can possibly imagine. Have Faith in Frank.
Yes, take some time today to invision what you want out of yourself and your life, but don't just leave it at that. Take a step. Big or small it doesn't matter as long as it's forward.
Find faith in Frank moving forward to a fabulous future.
Find faith in Frank moving forward to a fabulous future.
Say that shittt 5 times quick........
Find faith in Frank moving forward to a fabulous future.
Say that shittt 5 times quick........
...while holding your lower lip between your fingers...
Yeah, you know unlike some people on the forum I am dealing with this alone. No family, no OP distractions, just me.
That makes it harder but not impossible. This is the beginning of a new fresh life. Making new memories.
I'm going to be all right. It will just take time. It's already taken too long and that's really because of me, not letting go.
Yes, this is really hard stuff, especially without family to lean on. Mine has kept me afloat several times. I admire you going through this on your own. You sound good.
Yeah, you know unlike some people on the forum I am dealing with this alone. No family, no OP distractions, just me.
That makes it harder but not impossible. This is the beginning of a new fresh life. Making new memories.
I'm going to be all right. It will just take time. It's already taken too long and that's really because of me, not letting go.
There are others who do get it. The being alone thing, I understand completely. The fact of the matter is Frank that we have to simply be who we are and not who we think others believe we should be.
In the ways of the superior man it is not simply about being the bull and dominating the herd.it is about discovering the man that you are and being that man to the best of your ability. Not everyone is a Magnum PI, not everyone is a Macgiver, some people are Al Bundy and others are Archie Bunker. You have to figure out which role you play and play it as well as you can.
Once things get settled down for me tonight I will holler at you. Your going to be ok Frank, you are one of the good guys and people, including myself, like you for the guy that we get to know away from here. Hang in there buddy.....
Ian
In the ways of the superior man it is not simply about being the bull and dominating the herd.it is about discovering the man that you are and being that man to the best of your ability. Not everyone is a Magnum PI, not everyone is a Macgiver, some people are Al Bundy and others are Archie Bunker. You have to figure out which role you play and play it as well as you can.
Yes, that's really all we should be doing. When we do that, everything else will fall into place.
Once things get settled down for me tonight I will holler at you. Your going to be ok Frank, you are one of the good guys and people, including myself, like you for the guy that we get to know away from here. Hang in there buddy.....
Yeah, I am one of the good guys. I keep forgetting that.
First things first, you wouldnt have let your boys see you feel bad for them, but you would have. Sometimes the all mighty Oz makes statements based on how they would like to believe they would have acted, reality is a very different thing. Not trying to piss on your fire here pirate, just pointing out that sometimes we speak of which we don't know and it comes off as demeaning.
You're wrong Ian.
Go back anywhere in my posts once I kicked her out and find me a reference when I bemoaned my boys fate.
And for the record, I never think of myself as Oz, or some great sage guru.
When exactly did I piss in your Wheaties, brother?
First things first, you wouldnt have let your boys see you feel bad for them, but you would have. Sometimes the all mighty Oz makes statements based on how they would like to believe they would have acted, reality is a very different thing. Not trying to piss on your fire here pirate, just pointing out that sometimes we speak of which we don't know and it comes off as demeaning.
You're wrong Ian.
Go back anywhere in my posts once I kicked her out and find me a reference when I bemoaned my boys fate.
And for the record, I never think of myself as Oz, or some great sage guru.
When exactly did I piss in your Wheaties, brother?
You didnt piss in my wheaties.. .I am not wrong, you have never been where Frank is in that the signing of the papers and the finality of it all. You told him he was wrong for being sad, that is not right. As I said before, if you havent been where he is it is hard to say what you would or would not do. Kicking her out in no way is equivalent to signing divorce papers and you know that.
My point in all of it is that Frank has a right to feel the way he feels, everyone does. People look to you for leadership and in general you have the ability to empathize and not allow your own emotions to come into play with your posts. This time you did wrong. You said what you would do in a situation you have never been in.
You know that I of all people have never been afraid to point out when you do make a mistake. I didn't say it was on purpose, just that it was incorrect....
Even guidance needs a filter Jack.....
Ian
Fair enough.
This is Frank, whom we all care for. He can find enough reasons to flog himself, and be miserable, I refuse to give him advice that even remotely suggests he should do so.
He does have a right to feel the way he does, it is his mindset. He has done it for the last several years. Everything is sad or tainted with it.
Jack - Didn't you get divorced once before?
BTW... Kicking my wife out was much tougher emotionally than signing some stupid piece of paper. But my situation was different in that I had a girl friend when the papers were signed.
I can understand the feeling of loneliness that Frank must feel.
Just dont wallow in it Frank.
And dont ever touch alcohol again.
Will power my friend.
Strength, Honor and Joy.
Hey, Frank,
(long-time since we last exchanged, but I keep up with ya')
You have always gotten some great, heartfelt advice here in these forums from a lot of diverse viewpoints, like Ian, Jack, Kerry, et. al. And sometimes their approaches are at odds with each other, but that's to be expected, I guess.
I wanted to point out that this goes to show you are by no means going through this alone. You have a lot of people here who care about you and want to help you to help yourself. I'd take some great comfort in that. (There are many people in this world who go through these things that don't any form of moral/morale support.) And God is with you too.
You hit the nail on the head itself when you said that it's just going to take some time.
Take care, brother.
Thanks for all the thoughts. I'm determined not to wallow in it. And I will not touch alcohol again.
STBX agreed to my counter offer. Signing tomorrow for good.
Now I have to deal with bankruptcy filing. I also told our paralegal that I would help STBX with the costs since I know she can't afford it. She thought that was very kind and decent of me.
I just felt that she wouldn't be in this financial predicament if I had kept my wits about me.
I just felt that she wouldn't be in this financial predicament if I had kept my wits about me.
It's time to put stuff like this behind you.
For good.
Frank, is there any possibility that you can avoid filing bankruptcy?
Frank, is there any possibility that you can avoid filing bankruptcy?
I'm too far under water. Why do you ask?
I ask because filing for bankruptcy is a last resort. Maybe you are correct that you are too far under water, but have you researched other means to avoid bankruptcy?...
http://www.daveramsey.com/the_truth_about/bankruptcy_3018.html.cfm
His example is of a woman who is divorcing and after the divorce her ex husband will incur all but $11,000 of their debt.
I am too far under water. Please stop saying things like this. Making a decision for bankruptcy has been very difficult.
I just felt that she wouldn't be in this financial predicament if I had kept my wits about me.
It's time to put stuff like this behind you.
For good.
Yep, It is.
Well, can't sign today until I talk to the bankruptcy atty tomorrow because he says if I do qualify for bankruptcy then we need to change the financial statements in the divorce paperwork to reflect that.
On another note, STBX wants to come over Sunday to get the rest of her stuff and take some assorted furniture. I asked her to do that about 3-4 months ago but now it's D-Day she's going to do it finally.
Also, she and the girls were invited to her dads for Thanksgiving dinner but she apparently got dis-invited today. I do know that OM is not welcome there because her dad and stepmom don't approve of her actions. So I suspect that was an issue they couldn't resolve so STBX had a fight with her dad over it and decided she wasn't going.
Instead she is going to visit her grandmother on her mothers side who lives about 3 hours away. Grandma doesn't like what she's done but tolerates it. My daughters are going to meet her there for dinner on friday. They have learned to tolerate OM.
Oh yeah, she asked me if she could have the second fridge we keep in the pantry as she is planning on moving into a bigger place in the spring so she and D14 can have their own rooms. Since her 'support' is only increasing by $300 I don't see how she can afford it unless she lives in a crappy area. She's only been paying $600 for her condo which is about 1/2 what it should be.
Her tone of voice is mostly upbeat, and she keeps thanking me for taking care of the legal issues and will then get defensive if I say anything that could remotely be interpreted as criticism.
She seems excited to finally be getting her divorce.
They're always excited Frank.
I used to hang my hat on the hope that eventually my ex would be miserable and realize that she made a mistake.
It's kind of like having a big game against the best team around and hoping it rains so you don't have to play it.
Doesn't change the fact that eventually the game's going to be played...
And it ruins an otherwise decent evening in the process...
It dawned on me at some point that hoping she feels sad for what she lost at some point just meant that I was wasting time enjoying MY life.
Change is hard. There's not a much harder change than life after divorce. But once you accept it and digest it, you realize that your life hasn't ended.
It's just changed.
Change is neither good nor bad. Or maybe I should say that change can be either good or bad. Which one is pretty much up to us.
I know well the financial mess that ending a marriage can bring. You will overcome this and you will succeed and thrive again. You're a strong man, just like I am a strong man. We CAN be knocked down. But we WILL get back up and press on, in many ways stronger than before.
You have a relationship with your two daughters that is to be envied. There's a lot to be thankful for in that, and quite a bit to look forward to. And don't be surprised to discover one day that there may even be more.
Hate to drop cliches, but an ending is also a beginning. I know the rest of YOUR story can and will be a great one.
Blessings,
Bill
I know well the financial mess that ending a marriage can bring. You will overcome this and you will succeed and thrive again. You're a strong man, just like I am a strong man. We CAN be knocked down. But we WILL get back up and press on, in many ways stronger than before.
You have a relationship with your two daughters that is to be envied. There's a lot to be thankful for in that, and quite a bit to look forward to. And don't be surprised to discover one day that there may even be more.
Hate to drop cliches, but an ending is also a beginning. I know the rest of YOUR story can and will be a great one.
Yeah, after the grieving is done it will be much better.
Well, STBX called me last night. Apparently she got D14's report card and she has 3 F's due to not turning in homework.
Of course, it's not due to anything disruptive in her life.
So, we have to come up with a way to get her back on track.
I am sorry to hear about the poor grades. The timing of this could not have come at a worse time.
Who does D14 want to live with? I think she is at a borderline age where she should have some input as to what is best for her. But as Ian has pointed out before, teenagers are known for manipulating things some.
It is probably best to have some discussion with the school counselor.
Hey Frank,
You're making some hard choices, but doing it with strength.
Kerry, didn't mean to ignore you, and while I believe I see where you are going with that question I am curious.
Yes, I was married once before, a straight WAH with more history than that simple sentence conatins. In all honesty, I'm beating the odds of 80% failure rate.
Jack - What I meant by my question in the context of the discussion was whether you felt much pain the day your D became official. Also, I thought the failure rate was 60% for 2nd marriages. I have no idea whether I will ever get married again...I believe marriage is a good institution, but my pocket book tells me otherwise and to be overly cautious.
80% if the second marriage is based off an affair.
Cautious people don't discover new land.
Well I wan't MLC, and I'm not Frank's wife. Let me say this, I was relieved, and my regret was the pain I had caused her. IF she had been capable of real change beyond a two week facade and putting our marriage above her wants, her friends and family, and we had been equal in it instead of being some life sized Ken doll. Things would have been much different.
: )...wow that sounded bitter.
It was.
Cautious people dont marry Elizabeth Taylor - twice. Mickey Rooney could also learn a bit about caution.
Hey Ken doll...I am trying to figure out which one is you in
this picture.
Frank, are you and STBXW on a united front in doing what is best for D14?
In my first marriage?
The squirrel.
Frank, are you and STBXW on a united front in doing what is best for D14?
Yes, except I don't yell at her. I don't know what the problem is except, as D18 says, she has to live with her mother when her mother is being neurotic.
I'm not sure the homework problem is endemic to divorce or marital problems.
My son, God bless him, is going to end up panhandling because it seems like actually turning in the homework we do together is too difficult to remember.
Our friends younger sister who is 16, also seems to be having similar problems.
As a teacher, I can say that this is a universal problema nd really has nothing to do with homelife
and
teenagers are great at manipulating that to be the "poor me" card instead of the, "I was to lazy to turn it in" or "I forgot it somewhere and it is really my fault for being irresponsible" cards.
Hopefully her percentages weren't too low because she will have a heck of a time pulling off the grades to get better than a C for a semester class if she was failing at the end of 1st quarter
Frank, are you and STBXW on a united front in doing what is best for D14?
Yes, except I don't yell at her. I don't know what the problem is except, as D18 says, she has to live with her mother when her mother is being neurotic.
Frank, this is one of those situations where you and the stbx must work together because it is about the child. Sit your daughter down in a room with you and the stbx and make her speak before both of you. That way there is no confusion, no manipulation, no lies.
Let your D14 be involved in the how are we going to fix 3 F's decision. Let her be in front of both of you when the question is asked about where she wants to live and what works best for her.
I will say one more thing, the 3 F's are not because your stbx is neurotic, they are more likely because neither parent is actively participating in follow through on her schoolwork. You because you are not there, and stbx because she is well....you know.
Ian
80% if the second marriage is based off an affair.
Cautious people don't discover new land.
Well I wan't MLC, and I'm not Frank's wife. Let me say this, I was relieved, and my regret was the pain I had caused her. IF she had been capable of real change beyond a two week facade and putting our marriage above her wants, her friends and family, and we had been equal in it instead of being some life sized Ken doll. Things would have been much different.
: )...wow that sounded bitter.
It was.
Now that this is out, that is what I meant Jack.... It was comparing apples to oranges because Frank is all alone and on a different side of the fence in his divorce.
Ian
As a teacher, I can say that this is a universal problem and really has nothing to do with homelife
and
teenagers are great at manipulating that to be the "poor me" card instead of the, "I was to lazy to turn it in" or "I forgot it somewhere and it is really my fault for being irresponsible" cards.
DING DING DING.... Exactly and I believe Figeroni wins the booby prize.......
Ian
I wondered if that was you meant.
I have 7,000 plus posts, you can rehash any of my history anytime you want too, I am who I am and I'm not sure I have hidden anything about my past.
Feeling badly for the kids...I still do not believe that Frank can afford to feel bad without getting mired in it. And while I did not feel bad for my kids, I will admit that I had very high hopes as to why.
But even then, man I was already a better dad, than I had been any year before all that MLC crap happened. I am still grateful that my eyes were opened, and I still am not sure how they could have been opened any other way.
That is what I meant about being sad for my kids. Mom? Mom was still the same person and degrading in respect to being a parent...I was becoming the Dad I wanted.
I don't have that kind of time Jack......
I do not air other peoples stuff unless I know that they want it out there.
Feeling badly for the kids...I still do not believe that Frank can afford to feel bad without getting mired in it. And while I did not feel bad for my kids, I will admit that I had very high hopes as to why.
Please explain????? Why?
..I still do not believe that Frank can afford to feel bad without getting mired in it. And while I did not feel bad for my kids, I will admit that I had very high hopes as to why.
The thing is Jack, and yes I say this from experience, it is not a choice, you feel bad because you are a person of character and you cannot possibly sign those papers without a huge burden of sadness over your roles in the failure of your marriage and the loss of what we view as a pristine life for our children.
When you are the major cause of the divorce and the one who strayed, remorse just isnt a high point for ya is it?
Ian
So....shall we all be bruatally honest here?
I think that those of us who are oldtimers seem to have given some the wrong impression of us.
Some of us have our Marriages restored, others are happily divorced and some are dating or remarried to someone else.
Not one of us had an easy journey, not one of us did things without screwing up numerous amounts of times til we finally got it right. And even then, there were setbacks.
The things of the past do get blurry at times, and we forget details.
I know for myself it took so damn long to learn how to detach from the insanity of it all. To actually be able to cut off from the MLCBS and try to live my life as though he didn't exist.
For those of us with kids, it is even harder. Partly because we have to put aside our own pain for the sake of the children, and partly because the WAS does have a place in our children's lives whether we like it or not.
Some of us were surrounded by family and friends for support. Some of us were abandoned and had to deal with it all totally alone, with help only from our cyber friends on the DB-site.
Some of us had huge financial difficulties and couldn't pay the bills, others had plenty of money and never had to worry about expenses or groceries.
Some of us got involved with another person, and had a wonderful distraction from the WAS, others handled their lonliness in a different way.
Whatever the situation, although many of us are the same, we are all different.
What may be easy for some, is hard for another.
Nobody has any right to tell you how to be a Man, and tell you to grab your faithful steed and bow and arrow and suck it up. It doesn't work that way.
Not in real life anyways.
Each day has to be taken as it comes. Some days are easy, others dreadfully painful. Anything can trigger the emotions. A song on the radio, a memory, the holiday season.
We do need to be respectful when giving advice to others especially when we make a huge statements of how to be and how to act during this ordeal.
I do not know what it feels like to be served papers and be told that my marrige is now officially over. I don't know what it feels like to not be able to see my children on a daily basis or have to fight for custody. I do not know what it feels like to see my children hanging out with OW and her family.
I can only imagine and I can feel the pain of others, but it would be wrong of me to tell another how to feel about a situation if I had never experienced it myself.
Not one of us has our sh*t together. We all have issues, which we should be working on daily. NOT for our WAS but for us, so we can become better people and an example for our children.
Yes, D14 is a typical teenager. She does a lot of her homework but doesn't hand it in.
So, yesterday the revised divorce papers were signed by me finally, and I filed for bankruptcy.
BND... Said beautifully. Tolerence, open mindedness, and empathy for others are so important during this time. Just because one does not choose the same path as we did/would/do on this journey does not make them wrong. Everyone processes and deals with things differently. Yes, some get on a destructive path, which is never good, but otherwise everyone is an individual making personal choices.
Yes Frank, let me tell you, I teach 10 year olds and have taught 14 year olds and the homework thing is universal...Not a sign of disfunction... a sign of being a kid
BND,
: )
You've got the cape now.
That's what we call an inside joke folks.
Frank if I have in anyway made you feel less like a man...
...
Then you're a wuss.
A friend sent me this, it was posted this morning by STBX to her facebook page
Today I am thankful for the marriage that I had for 17 years with Frank D. We explored together made a family together played together and cryed together. I am grateful for everyway that I have grown from knowing him and sharing so many years of my life with him.
That is a very nice sentiment by your wife Frank.
And I am sure it has brought some tears to your eyes.
But dont linger on it too long thinking of why.
I know why. So she can feel better about herself and her decision. Her friends have posted all kinds of supportive stuff to her about her 'wonderful' sentiments.
It's just the way it is. There's nothing 'hopeful' to read into it.
How often are you checking her site?
How often are you checking her site?
I generally don't. A mutual friend sent me the posting.
I don't like to hurt myself by looking at it.
Nice friend.
Does he/she kick you in the nutz when he/she greets you in person too? : )
Nice friend.
Does he/she kick you in the nutz when he/she greets you in person too? : )
'She' used to be friends with STBX and thought it was an extremely bizarre thing for her to post.
I really don't care. If STBX really felt that way, she would have sent ME a note saying this stuff. She posted on Facebook for her own gratification / guilt.
Par for the course.
BND - perfectly, sensitively, compassionately said.
Frank - what she said.
V
Regarding the facebook post. D18 is 'friends' with her mother so when she goes online and sees the post, I'm sure she will be upset by it. She already disrespects her mom and BF as it is.
you could always go on her facebook page and let her know that cried is spelled CRIED instead of CRYED
just sayin
and
what kind of booby prize do i win?
you could always go on her facebook page and let her know that cried is spelled CRIED instead of CRYED
just sayin
and
what kind of booby prize do i win?
I'm not her 'friend' so I can't post to her. Nor would I anyway. Even though her page is public to anyone I don't look at it.
But yeah, spelling is not one of her strengths.
what kind of booby prize do i win?
I do not believe you need any more boobies....let me think on it.......
Ian
I did the numbers I needed to figure out my income for the past 6 months for the bankruptcy lawyer. I had done calculations during the summer for an average and it was about $5k, which put me under the $65k max to be able to file ch 7.
When I met with the lawyer after signing the divorce papers and feeling like I had no choice but to do the bankruptcy due to the emotional duress I was feeling, I told him I THOUGHT I was making only $5k per month.
Well I forgot that during the past 3 months I did make a bit more because of a couple projects I got. So I called him and said that it looks like I didn't qualify.
He seemed very agitated and angry that I told him I thought I was making about $5k but after checking I am showing improvement in income.
He asked if I had business deductions and when I said I really don't he got angry at me for 'not working with him' and that HE could come up with the required amounts.
This raised a red flag for me. I felt that we might be pushing it too close, that I might be making more money in the next few months and in the end be denied the bankruptcy so I said I want to put this off and get a refund.
The fee was a flat rate, and he says he's put hours of work in and had to charge me for the time. I can understand that but his rate is $350/hour for his regular representation. I am hoping he doesn't charge me that and take half my money for doing work a legal aid person could do.
The real lesson here is that I haven't trusted myself and my intuition when I should. I did NOT feel good writing him a check the other day for a lot of reasons but felt I 'had no choice'. That I was defeated.
So wrong.
I am capable of so many things, and I WILL believe in myself. I will pray that this lawyer will listen to his conscience and realize that he isn't justified to charge me more than a few hundred dollars.
Otherwise this will be an expensive lesson. Regardless of the financial issues, I know I can trust myself and this feels so wrong.
There is a bit of irony in this. Even if you are just above the levels for bankrupcy, the fees for a bankrupcy lawyer are such to push you below the level where you can qualify for bankrupcy.
Frank, a friend of mine went through a costly divorce several years ago and he told me that it takes about 3-5 years for most guys to regain themselves financially and that he was almost back to normal. The thing is that guys usually recover financially from a divorce. Women on the other hand dont have the same statistics as most of them end up living at a reduced financial level.
It may seem like all doom and gloom now, but I have faith that you are going to turn this all around. Who knows, but maybe after you have regained yourself some emotionally, you may meet a nice lady who is financially stable and the two of you together can combine to live comfortably.
Talked to STBX about this. She was agreeable that it was a smart move to not go forward if it was questionable.
Then she went on to ask if I was going to be able to pay her the $500/month she is supposed to get. I told her I would pay her first before other bills. She kept saying "are you sure you can afford it?"
Then she went on to talk about how she can't afford her debt and she needs a place where she can have her own room. Then she asks me how long do I think I'll be in the house and I said probably 6 months more before it forecloses.
She pauses, then says "well, I'm wondering something..." then silence for about 10 seconds.
I swear to God I thought she was going to suggest we share the house until then to save money...
After a few seconds she says she want's to talk to D18 about possibly living with her. I mentioned that D18 wants me to rent a 3 bedroom house so D14 can visit and have her own room. STBX says "Well, I'm going to ask her anyway because she wanted to live with me before but I didn't have the space in the condo".
D18 doesn't pay rent to me, she barely makes enough money to pay for her personal life while going to college.
I didn't say anything. She mentioned that the person who is letting her rent the condo for $600/month may want her to move out in the near future. Nothing for me to say there either.
Trust your feelings. Remember that. Your intuition is always right.
There is a bit of irony in this. Even if you are just above the levels for bankrupcy, the fees for a bankrupcy lawyer are such to push you below the level where you can qualify for bankrupcy.
I am about $10k above the level. I'm just angry that he's likely to charge me $600-900 for filling in some forms. I just have a sense about him. What kind of lawyer yells at his client because his client doesn't feel comfortable doing this?
It may seem like all doom and gloom now, but I have faith that you are going to turn this all around. Who knows, but maybe after you have regained yourself some emotionally, you may meet a nice lady who is financially stable and the two of you together can combine to live comfortably.
That would be nice.
My D lawyer said WE, W and I, may need to discuss bankruptcy before a D because she ran up so much credit card debt and now that we're apart, we keep sinking more and more.
I really don't want to file. I just want to get enough out of the D to pay off my car. I still have a car payment she doesn't.
I could file. I have a car and a place and a second income. So I'll make it.
The problem we have is very few assets. We're underwater on the house. She'd have to take a chunk of the CC debt -- I'm paying all of it, except for what she's wracked up since -- and there's no bank or credit card company that will give her a loan to take the debt.
I'm somewhat stuck.
Well the Bankruptcy lawyer surprised me and only charged me $300. Says he did 3 hours of work but I think he didn't and knew it when I challenged that statement.
All well that ends well. Now time to work hard and make a better future for my daughters.
Good deal on not getting raked by the lawyer.
I am envious that you have a swimming pool. The kids tell me that their future step dad is going to build a swim pool and playground for them. This is all we have at my house (minus the slide)...
http://www.twincitiesdailyphoto.com/2007/redneck_waterslide.jpg
LOL!!
That looks exactly like the set up I have for the kids!
I guess I might be considered redneckish.
No trapt, you are not a redneck. Only if you put some live bass in the pool would that make you a redneck.
Did you put a live bass in the pool?
Kevin
I would, but bass fishing in Oregon stinks.
In California the cost of electricity is so high that I'm probably paying $50-75 per month just for the pumps which must be run at least 4-5 hours a day.
Kind of sucks. My Electric bill in general is $350/month. Thank You Gray Davis and Enron.
After a few seconds she says she want's to talk to D18 about possibly living with her. I mentioned that D18 wants me to rent a 3 bedroom house so D14 can visit and have her own room. STBX says "Well, I'm going to ask her anyway because she wanted to live with me before but I didn't have the space in the condo".
I told D18 her mom was going to ask her if she wanted to share a house with her and D14. She immediately said "Is she crazy? I am much more comfortable living with you."
I feel sorry for her mom.
It probably is a good thing to have given D18 advance notice. That way she can respond in a prepared polite manner. Hopefully, she does not say "Dad already told me your were going to ask this".
You should not feel sorry though. She made her own situation with her daughter.
Resigning the divorce papers tomorrow. Finally done.
Life is good. Something has changed. Maybe just perspective.
Perspective affects alot Frank.
Good for you!
What does you weekend look like?
Perspective affects alot Frank.
Good for you!
What does you weekend look like?
Yes they do.
My weekend is going to be busy with projects I want to get done. And I'll spend some time with my girls.
Got the word, STBX signed this afternoon. Papers to be filed monday and in 2-3 weeks it's over. Finally.
Kinda interesting. Friday the 13th. Very appropriate.
Now, our anniversary is Nov 23rd. 10 days from now. Think the judge can get 'er done by then?
So today, like Sleeper, I'm letting myself feel the anger at what has happened to my family. I'm angry that I was weak when I was capable of being strong.
I'm angry that as I look back at my entire marriage I was married to a woman who was a kind and loving person but did not have the relationship skills to be supportive when it really mattered.
I'm angry that she chose to run from problems, thinking that she could 'shock' me into action. Or thinking that her happiness was all that mattered.
I'm angry that my children will have to live with these memories for the rest of their lives. They will have trust issues and self esteem issues.
But, I'm glad that I'm the kind of man who can help them through this so that those issues aren't as bad as they were for me as a child when I went through this same experience.
Anger diminishes with time. I went to a friends house last night, whole family and extended family was there. Seeing the love, and lack of dysfunction made me realize how much dysfunction there was in STBX's family. A large part of our issues were the result of her issues with her father and his wife and in laws.
She never felt accepted, had low self esteem, and they were of the judgemental.
So, when I was unable to be the 'balance' in her emotions no wonder she ran away.
That doesn't make it ok. It just means I understand.
I'm moving on.
I actually liked being around my friends family. It was warm and friendly. I realize that I miss that, for many years. I had 'built' a 'family' like that with friends and their families. I think that was what attracted STBX to me.
I was healthy.
Being healthy makes you attractive to a lot of people beside your XW.
How is your day going today Frank?
I've been stuck doing "C" code for the last year for embedded dsp faxing, and of course, crappy Windows OS. Someday I may get back to the joy of C# programming.
Doing ok. Mostly PHP code on web apps today.
My AA sponsor said to go get the lyrics from The Eagles song "Get Over it". So here they are....
I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat
Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it
You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing
Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it
It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak
You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass
Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it
Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it
D14 took our beagle to stay overnight at her moms condo. Dropping them off, OM's truck was there. I need to get used to it and stop the drama of 'poor me'.
I just realized that I haven't actually 'seen' STBX in about 3 weeks or so. She hasn't come to the door during her rare pickups of D14. And we don't talk on the phone very often. I guess this is what 'moving on' looks like.
Pretty strange.
You will get used to it with time. Heck, whenever my X stops by my work or home, I can smell her before I see her. Lately I think she has become a test subject for womens perfume. I worry about the kids olfactory system when they drive with her.
It's a skunk thing, Kerry.
Hi, Frank. You're doing good.
You will get used to it with time. Heck, whenever my X stops by my work or home, I can smell her before I see her. Lately I think she has become a test subject for womens perfume. I worry about the kids olfactory system when they drive with her.
How would you characterize that kind of behavior? Another MLC trait?
It may be some sort of MLC or maybe that is the person she always wanted to be - high class look. I do know that I am not attracted one bit to the constant painting of toenails, fancy shoes and intense perfume. I'm looking for more of the Joni Mitchell type outdoorsy girl (minus the hair on the legs/underarms and with conservative leaning views).
1 Kerry, you just dated yourself.
2 Frank, you should buy your AA sponsor a bee...root beer. I like him.
Why must you characterize behaviour?
I agree, I don't like the overuse of makeup / perfume. That's one of the things I liked about STBXW was that she had a 'natural' beauty to me.
On another note, it's said that the opposite of love is indifference. I would have to say that STBX is pretty close to being indifferent. As for me, well I've accepted that this is the life I have been dealt. My kids love me and that's what matters.
Still, there is that nagging feeling in the back of my head that this is wrong. When does that go away?
When you've made your peace, Frank.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
It's from a movie. Any idea which one?
When you've made your peace, Frank.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
It's from a movie. Any idea which one?
Jacobs Ladder.
I agree with the sentiment. It's all about FEAR.
Last night D14 took our beagle to stay with her and her mom overnight. STBX dropped him off around 8 am. D14 goes to school by 7 am.
She has a key so she can open the door and let him in the house. After she dropped him off he was sitting by the window whining.
Around 10:30 this morning she texts me saying that he was fun to have overnight and she took him for a walk in the big park we have here called 'Wildwood' and he enjoyed the walk. She then asks if he can come over again tonight.
I said 'Of course, any time'. He misses her and the whole family unit of course. Even dogs need visitation. Was just thinking how he is not mentioned in the divorce decree.
I remember how she said several weeks ago how she misses him, which is a metaphor for how she misses her old life - minus me. Now she's obsessing over seeing him, especially since tuesday's are work nights for her.
Did she take OM on her walk this morning? Who knows and what difference does it make? Our dog doesn't care as long as he has attention.
Gotta remember that for her, the grass is greener where she is and my grass is in a great need for watering so I can live better in it.
By the way, our anniversary is next monday. Would have been 19 years. It would be ironic if our divorce is finalized by then.
which is a metaphor for how she misses her old life - minus me. Now she's obsessing over seeing him, especially since tuesday's are work nights for her.
I love you Frank, but man...how the F do you know it is a metaphor except in your head? Don't do this to yourself.
Wildwood park? Do they have
flowers there?
Yes Jack, I am dating myself again.
So she replies to my text:
'Great how about every day during the school week?'
That seems like a bit much. I do like having the little guy around at night too.
So she's going from pretty much never seeing him to wanting him on weeknights. That's a big change for me. I don't like the feeling I'm getting. Not sure how to reply.
Sounds like the dog enjoyed it. Maybe it will give the birds a feeling of freedom when the dog is out.
Sounds like the dog enjoyed it. Maybe it will give the birds a feeling of freedom when the dog is out.
The birds could care less.
I think what's bothering me is the idea of large change on my weeknights. And, is it 'cake eating' to give in to such a big request?
Or enabling?
After putting some thought into it (and talking to BrandNewDay) I'm going to compromise and let her have him Monday-Wednesday-Friday and any weekend day she wants.
And, instead of her coming to the door each of the mornings to drop him off, she can open the side gate and let him into the yard. We have a dog door so he can get in on his own.
There's no reason I need to see her each morning. It's not healthy for me.
I want him to have the contact, it makes him happy to see her.
However, I think this was all about setting boundaries for me.
Well, she called and said that monday-wed-fri wouldn't work and could she have mon-tue-wed.
I agreed, simple enough. She will let the dog in the gate but said if she saw D18 was still home and not gone to school that she wanted to come to the door to 'get a hug'.
?????
I agreed, simple enough. She will let the dog in the gate but said if she saw D18 was still home and not gone to school that she wanted to come to the door to 'get a hug'.
?????
BrandNewDay suggests that this is crossing my boundaries and I need to tell her 'no, stay out of my house'.
I would insist that XW not come in your house when you are not there. It is a big intrusion on your privacy.
Having joint shared dog custody seems strange to me. I mean, if you write down the arrangement/schedule, is that called a "mastering plan"?
I would insist that XW not come in your house when you are not there. It is a big intrusion on your privacy.
I'm usually there in the morning. I just don't want to SEE her.
Having joint shared dog custody seems strange to me. I mean, if you write down the arrangement/schedule, is that called a "mastering plan"?
ha ha ha - fail!
You know Frank it's OK to say NO.
You don't have to agree to every nut-brain scheme your ex comes up with. Sharing custody of the dog???? Come on .....
The dog lives with you, he's company for you, you agreed he could have a sleep over with D14, he had it ... it often seems to me like you give an inch and she takes a mile.
Enough.
You shouldn't have to see your wife in the mornings during the week - not until you are way more detached from her.
Say NO. Make a boundary that puts your needs and healing first. It doesn't make you a bad man - it makes you a man who is taking care of himself.
Chin up. v
I agree with Virginia.
And I think it IS enabling to an extent when we allow the one who chose to walk away to hold on to the "nice" pieces of the life they walked away from.
I'm reminding myself that in the end this is about spending time with a dog.
You're still detaching Frank. You're still in the process of de-coupling. You really don't need to get caught up in these kinds of matters, no matter how seemingly simple or trivial.
It's not unkind to simply reply "no" to a request that goes beyond a kind gesture that you chose to offer. And yes, I do think that in de-coupling properly (healthily) there are times that our response to a situation could be construed to be bitchy. But you know what? That's too bad.
You have yourself to think about.
I know you're picking up on the rather consistent responses to your ponderings about your wife, what she's thinking, and what it all means. I'm not sure that you've yet accepted that continually analyzing every last detail of every last interaction is nothing more than an ice covered road for you. You slip, you slide, you get stuck, and you spend a lot of what must be frustrating time trying to find a way to just wish the ice away.
Bit by bit, row by row...at some point you have to let go of her and stop wondering/worrying/caring about what goes on in her head.
One summer, many, many years ago, I decided that I was going to read An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser. I knew it was considered somewhat of a classic, and I thought it would be good for me to read some classic literature I guess.
That was the most god awful, agonizingly boring and tedious book I ever read. I thoroughly detested that book. But I read every word from beginning to merciful end. And all along I kept thinking, "I can't wait till this book is DONE, so that I can start a NEW and BETTER book."
Aren't you about ready to start a new book Frank?
Blessings,
Bill
Yeah, I already told her mon - tues - wed would be ok. Now I will need to take it back.
Oh well, she will get madder I suppose. But I do need to protect my own emotional self.
And, 3 consecutive days a week would confuse the poor dog. It needs to be more random.
Left her a message to call me back.
Yeah, she called back. I told her that I didn't want to go from her 'hardly seeing him' to a scheduled visit like he was 'shared custody'. Explained that I spoke to several people and that it will just be too confusing if he spends too much time split between homes. And I also said I'm just not comfortable with the situation and I don't have to explain myself.
I also said that I wasn't comfortable with her coming over in the morning to drop him off, knowing that she might choose to come to the door to see D18 which I see as a violation of my boundaries. This is my home and I don't want her in it.
Her response, 'Well D18 lives there too so you have to expect that I will come and see her too'.
I said that may be true, but I am not comfortable with her coming by 3 days a week with that being the potential outcome.
She got angry and said "So I can't see him at all then?"
I said "No, I just am not comfortable going from you hardly seeing him to now it's a scheduled visitation. You can certainly see him 1-2 times a week if you let me know in advance. I'm just not going to make it a regular schedule like visitation is"
I told her I would drop him off tonight when I drop off D14 since I had already agreed to it.
You're right. Give her an inch and she takes a mile.
This stuff messes with my head. Too much people pleasing but as has been said, I HAVE to protect my heart. I have to.
I spoke with D18 about this whole thing and she said one thing
"Mom is irrational, a dog is not a person and she's trying to treat him like one. Besides, she said, I don't WANT to see her in the morning. I like my space. This morning I was cleaning the bird cage and I heard this barely audible tap on the door. She was there waving her hands in front of the window. So I opened the door and let her give me the dog and she then left. "
I feel a bit better. I think I hurt STBXW's feelings a bit but too bad.
I told D14 that I had said to her mom that she could take Skylar home with her. D14 said "Nah, why not tomorrow night dad?"
So, tomorrow it is. I'm sure that will irk STBXW tonight.
Hey Frank - I think I get you. I think I'm a lot like you. As I said before we've been around here for about the same amount of time - only difference is I've had an extra 2 or 3 years living without my ex.
I had the devils own job detaching. It took years. In the end I accepted a job in a remote Aboriginal Community in the outback, 3000km away from home and lived as the only non-indigenous person in a 4th world cross-cultural economy for 18 months. I was 400km by dirt road from the nearest regional town and 1500km from the nearest reasonable coffee. No cell-phone coverage, limited satellite cover and a completely dry (no alcohol)area - so there was no risk of drinking and dialing!! As a form of detaching - self imposed exile is right up there!!!
The point I'm making (in my favourite it's all-about-me style) is that regardless of how much you know you have to "detach" it's hard, and it doesn't happen by osmosis. We have to make it happen.
I also know that it's terrifying to detach - sometimes the "attachment" we have to that old marriage feels like the only thing we've got left.
I'm here to tell you - as terrifying as it is, when you walk through it and start to come out the other side - you wonder why it took so long. Reawakening from years of sadness and grief is the most amazing feeling you can imagine ... and it's within grasp for you my friend.
Come on through to this side of the pain. Accept the gap in your life left by your wife. Start to fill that gap with new life (I'm told there are less extreme ways to do it than exiling yourself from everything and everyone and I'm sure you're the man to find them).
One day you wake up and the huge gaping hole you thought there was in your life is a thin line of light reminding you that the difficulties of these years has made you into the man you are ... and you wouldn't have it any other way.
The point I'm making (in my favourite it's all-about-me style) is that regardless of how much you know you have to "detach" it's hard, and it doesn't happen by osmosis. We have to make it happen.
I also know that it's terrifying to detach - sometimes the "attachment" we have to that old marriage feels like the only thing we've got left.
And in a way, that's kind of sick. Holding onto something that is dead is worse than Zombies.
But it SURE is hard not to be a people pleaser.
I think what I learned to day is to just say 'no' first.
I can always change my mind later.
But I was clearly trying to please her. Sacrificing myself. Stupid.
One day you wake up and the huge gaping hole you thought there was in your life is a thin line of light reminding you that the difficulties of these years has made you into the man you are ... and you wouldn't have it any other way.
Amen to that.
First of all, brilliant post Virginia and right up Franks alley.
Second,dog visitation??? Really?????? Kind of bizarre Frank...
Third, take your key back from her. The papers are signed, she rents her own place, she has no reason to have a key to your house.
Lastly, her visitation with your D18 is between the two of them, stay out of it. If your D18 wants her to come to the house and give her hugs every morning, then fine. I dont see that happening, do you?
Ian
Lastly, her visitation with your D18 is between the two of them, stay out of it. If your D18 wants her to come to the house and give her hugs every morning, then fine. I dont see that happening, do you?
D18 says she would prefer her mom not come by in the morning.
Your D18 sure seems to be quite rational.
I remember when my brother was going through his divorce. I had moved in to help pay bills and I gradually became the dogs master. His STBXW came over when we were at work and took the dog from the dog run. She said that she missed the dog and needed time with the dog that afternoon. My brother told her to never do that again and to get her own dog.
I feel a bit better. I think I hurt STBXW's feelings a bit but too bad.
This is crucial that you need to learn to not be a fixer for her. After my D, I let my XW know that I am not her tech guy anymore.
I had the devils own job detaching. It took years. In the end I accepted a job in a remote Aboriginal Community in the outback, 3000km away from home and lived as the only non-indigenous person in a 4th world cross-cultural economy for 18 months. I was 400km by dirt road from the nearest regional town and 1500km from the nearest reasonable coffee. No cell-phone coverage, limited satellite cover and a completely dry (no alcohol)area - so there was no risk of drinking and dialing!! As a form of detaching - self imposed exile is right up there!!!
WOW! Did you keep yourself entertained swatting flying insects?
Annnnnnnd...
But I was clearly trying to please her. Sacrificing myself. Stupid.
BAM!
The crystal clear clarity of newly discovered self awareness right up side the head.
I hope you hold onto that realization Frank.
PS- Your X and your D18, you no longer need to be the go between between them anymore, they should be capable of discovering their own relationship with each other. Frank NOT to the rescue.
This is crucial that you need to learn to not be a fixer for her. After my D, I let my XW know that I am not her tech guy anymore.
Funny you should say that. XW (might as well call her that, it's just a matter of the papers being approved by a judge) is having problems with her computer. It runs for a while then decides to go to hibernate mode (It's a desktop, not a laptop). Generally that indicates the power supply is fading out.
I told D14 to tell her to replace it, only $50. She hasn't so far. Guess OM can't do that for her. But he can dig holes real well...
PS- Your X and your D18, you no longer need to be the go between between them anymore, they should be capable of discovering their own relationship with each other. Frank NOT to the rescue.
I wasn't being the 'go between'. I was telling D18 what had transpired so when she heard a 'story' from her mom she knew the truth.
Frank,
I am just reading what you write, and presenting my take on it.
Frank,
I am just reading what you write, and presenting my take on it.
I know, I am simply clarifying.
On another note...
What's with XW's "timidness" when knocking on the door in the morning and in general? For someone who is 'happy' and in control of their life she sure seems afraid to knock on the door or (gasp) ring the doorbell.
What's with XW's "timidness" when knocking on the door in the morning and in general? For someone who is 'happy' and in control of their life she sure seems afraid to knock on the door or (gasp) ring the doorbell.
Are you one of the drivers that slow down to gawk at accidents as you drive by? Dont do it. You are creating your own traffic jam in your mind.
Frank,
If I am not mistaken, your X has always been timid. I do not recall any time in your writings when she wasn't.
She puts the PASSIVE in passive.
How is that shocking?
Frank,
If I am not mistaken, your X has always been timid. I do not recall any time in your writings when she wasn't.
She puts the PASSIVE in passive.
How is that shocking?
Good observation. She is who she is.
Somehow I see all this 'dog' stuff as her trying to see what she can get from me now that the divorce is almost final.
She has no clue.
Originally Posted By: Walking
I had the devils own job detaching. It took years. In the end I accepted a job in a remote Aboriginal Community in the outback, 3000km away from home and lived as the only non-indigenous person in a 4th world cross-cultural economy for 18 months. I was 400km by dirt road from the nearest regional town and 1500km from the nearest reasonable coffee. No cell-phone coverage, limited satellite cover and a completely dry (no alcohol)area - so there was no risk of drinking and dialing!! As a form of detaching - self imposed exile is right up there!!!
WOW! Did you keep yourself entertained swatting flying insects?
Lol ...
There were a LOT of insects and some of them were pretty big ... but no. It was a pretty amazing job so I was busy (that's what GAL is all about no? keeping busy so your mind isn't wallowing in divorce and exes and stuff)
for the first little while the kids entertained me - they were constantly around, checking me out and reporting back to their families what the
mitg cjuyk (white girl) was like.
Then the woman took me under their wing and tried to teach me the Dreamtime stories. They taught me how to hunt and gather (fish, turtles, turtle eggs, wallaby, bush plants and medicines) and how to deal with cheating husbands ("you flog that woman he went with, you flog her good one - then you give that cheeky husband back to her - that's all she deserves, no good man, just run-around-used-up husband one").
When the women had taught me their way, and the community agreed I knew enough about their way, then they let me talk to the men - who taught me about lore and let me teach them about (what they call) "white-fella way".
There was very little time to wallow in self pity - although I admit to a few Saturday evenings when the Countrymen were dancing Corroborree and I locked up in the airconditioned donga when I wrote a bitter letter or two to the ex ... fortunately the mail only left once a fortnight so there was little risk of actually posting one!!!
What an amazing experience to immerse yourself in another culture. I really like how they recommend how to deal with cheaters and their partners. And the words "mitg cjuyk" seem like a mouthfull.
I got to experience being amongst a different culture when I used to visit my in laws in Thailand. My first trip was for my FIL's funeral which is a week long event for Buddhists there. My most interesting trip was to Vietnam with 2 bus loads of Thai Orthopedic surgeons and I had no idea what the old ex-Vietcong guide was saying because he only spoke Thai and Vietnamese. I just remember that he frowned whenever he looked at my son and I as we were the only Americans. My BIL told me that it was best that I not hear some of the things he was saying.
D14 took Skylar to the condo last night. This morning XW dropped of Skylar through the gate as I requested and not by coming to the door.
He was upset like last time, whining for a while after she was gone.
A few minutes later she texted me to tell me he snubbed his food this morning and that since they went on a long walk at the park he was probably hungry.
I guess I am glad she honored my boundaries this morning. That's it for visits this week. If D14 asks they can have him one day next week.
Here is a very touching video about a man, his dog and emotions...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yc6X5_jL9M
The dog looks almost identical to my dog Sam, who died about 14 years ago. I can still smell him. He was a good dog.
Skylar still hasn't eaten his breakfast. I knew this would mess with his head.
D14 said that XW was very happy he was there last night.
Frank,
My H and I are informally sharing our dog. I had him for the first 6 months of our S, except when I was traveling. H had him while I was gone for the summer. I have him again, but H will when I leave town next week and for Xmas/NYs. Each time we exchange him, there are a few days to a week of adjustment to the new routine, but then he settles down.
If you really want to share your dog -- and in spite of the surprised responses of some here, I know several estranged couples that do so -- I suggest a two-week or monthly schedule. Just keep his food and routine and discipline as consistent as possible (like kids!) and he should be just fine.
If you really want to share your dog -- and in spite of the surprised responses of some here, I know several estranged couples that do so -- I suggest a two-week or monthly schedule. Just keep his food and routine and discipline as consistent as possible (like kids!) and he should be just fine.
The only problem is that he can't stay in her condo all day for up to 12 hours.
apples vs. oranges.... there is no custody issues with your dog...
Ian
Today I am focusing on being the best man I can be. Letting go of the past and detaching from the people and events that take advantage of me.
XW is history. Yeah, she'll be in my life in small doses but like any poison, if you take it in small doses you can build up a tolerance for it.
But that doesn't really matter. What does matter is my thoughts. Because thoughts become your reality.
For too long I have thought that I was bad, didn't deserve good things, wasn't lovable. And look at my reality.
The truth is that I am lovable. Even XW loved me, she just didn't love herself. The same can be said for me.
I used to have this posted on my wall years ago:
"Think about what you really want"
"Expect Miracles"
I'm going to print it out and post it on my wall again.
Nice sentiments, but remember, they are just words that help to frame a code or creed to live by. As you move forward, you should not need reminders or motivational printings to live your life with dignity such that your friends and family respect you. Disregard others (X and OM) and let them do whatever the hell they please.
Nice sentiments, but remember, they are just words that help to frame a code or creed to live by. As you move forward, you should not need reminders or motivational printings to live your life with dignity such that your friends and family respect you. Disregard others (X and OM) and let them do whatever the hell they please.
Agreed.
Just went to the bank to close our joint checking account. It was hard to say "We're divorced so we don't need this account any more"
I guess you get used to it.
Now you'll use checks with your name on them. You'll write them when you need to or want to and answer to no one. You'll use them to make your life and this world a better place. Your checks will carry your life forward.
One of the things you will come to learn is that you miss the "us" part of life more than the "X" part of "us". Start replacing those thoughts about what "was" with thoughts about what "can and will be". It doesn't happen all at once. Purge your coming days of the unfortunate past, one thought at a time. And know you would not have become the man you are going to be, if it were not for this past. But it is time to put it in its place and let it go.
Tell all your utilities or creditors and anyone who needs to know; then put those thought away with what you can not change. Begin contemplating what you can change. Some people use this forum to journal their crisis. Some use notebooks. At some point they find they no longer need to do so.
What they don't consider is that it is time to start a new journal. Think about one that isn't already half full of things you can't change. Start a journal with daily thoughts about what you have improved on, will work on, and enjoy. Check that list each day, each week, and see what happens.
And continue to use this forum to post the positives you
will experience when you begin to look for them.
You know, you're right. I have a journal that goes back about 2 years. It's full of hurt, failure and depression.
I threw it in the trash tonight.
Now I have a new one. It's going to be used to document growth and and progress in my new life.
Working on being ALIVE today. Goals have been set and I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, to get there...
Monday would have been 19th wedding anniversary.
Instead it will be just ... monday!
Seriously though, last week was an incredibly hard week for me. This week will have its challenges but I'm choosing to change how I view it.
Instead it will be just ... monday!
Actually, you can still celebrate it differently... It is Miley Ray Cyrus (aka Hannah Montana) 17th birthday on Monday.
The Climb
Thanksgiving Day. Been a rough couple weeks but today is calm. The girls and I are making Lasagna for dinner. They didn't want turkey since they are going with their mother to her grandma's tomorrow for her famous turkey dinner.
These are some of the things I realize I'll miss - seeing Grandma M. and the whole family experience. After 18 years it seems weird not to go. But I didn't go last year either. However, this year XW is taking OM with her. The girls are not thrilled with that - they see this as a 'family' event and he's not family. That and D18 say's "He'll probably sit in a corner somewhere by himself since he doesn't talk much".
I'm sure it will be awkward for Grandma also. She still likes me in spite of the B.S. XW has told her. But she's in a tough spot and I worry about her. She's in her 70's but very spry.
D14 is staying overnight with me and going with D18 tomorrow on their own since they don't want to stay overnight at Grandmas. D18 has really matured in the past year and does a great job taking care of her sister.
So today I'm thankful that I have my daughters. I love them more than anything and they love and respect me too.
Yesterday I also decided to go see the doctor and get back on the anti depressants and ADHD meds. I had stopped them several months ago because they are expensive but the anxiety and lack of focus came back slowly and I realize that even though I'm broke, I need this stuff right now especially since it's the holidays.
I've also stopped calling people to vent about what XW is doing. Ozzie rightly pointed out to me that it's an obsession and has been enabling me to stay stuck. Whenever I start to feel that way I visualize myself laying down my end of 'the rope' on the ground and walking away.
Overall, I feel good today.
Home alone today. The girls are at their great grandmas with XW and OM for turkey dinner. They both told me last night how they are dreading going because they will have to be around OM all day.
These are their burdens, I feel badly for them but there's nothing I can do about it. I would not want to be in that house today as I'm sure the tension will be heavy.
I am stronger than this. I will prevail.
Been on anti depressants / anxiety meds for about a week. They're finally starting to work but the anxiety is still there.
At my counselors suggestion I've asked XW to arrange to come and get the furniture that is hers as per the settlement. She hasn't been able to find anyone other than OM who has a truck and didn't want to use him as it could be 'a problem'.
I sent her an e-mail and told her specifically that I want the stuff picked up by Sunday, and that I will leave it on the back patio and she and OM can come and get it as I will leave the house before they come.
Also going to work with D14 and D18 to start looking through their things and decide what they need and don't need so we can pack up and be ready to move when the house forecloses. I'll sell off the furniture I know I won't be able to fit in a 2 bedroom house / apt.
Better to be proactive than caught off guard, and a victim.
Last night D18 and I spent some time going for a drive together and talking. She shared with me that when she went to her grandmothers on Friday for thanksgiving dinner, when she walked in the house and saw OM there, she had a breakdown.
She said she was used to seeing him at her moms condo, but being at a 'family' event seemed so wrong to her, that he shouldn't be there.
She said she just lost it and cried and ended up going into the bedroom with her boyfriend and sobbing.
She said her mom came in to talk to her, telling D18 that she is an adult and needed to act like one. D18 said 'mom was really angry at me'. D18 said she told her mom "I may be an adult, but I'm also your DAUGHTER". D18 said that after this, XW was visibly shaken.
Anyway, D18 said dinner went well and there were no more incidents. She also said that since they've been back, her relationship with her mom is different. Her mom seems to be affected by what happened.
I think this is the first time XW has actually seen the pain she has caused. Up till now she has seen anger.
D18 and I are getting closer. She told me that she likes living with me because I'm a parent, and I act like one.
Somehow I'm going to make my life work, and my daughters lives also. I'm getting over everything and not feeling sorry for myself any more.
I am [censored] impressed. : )
Your daughter's response was awesome.
But you Frank... good for you! You seem different this time. Like real, not the BS hot air. But really coming into your own.
Your daughter's response was awesome.
Yeah, she also said to me "Dad, I really think I've matured a lot this last year". I think she has too. More than her mother has because she shows Compassion for others feelings.
But you Frank... good for you! You seem different this time. Like real, not the BS hot air. But really coming into your own.
I made my decision abut a week ago that I'd suffered enough and will be better off without XW. And I also came to the realization that whatever happens to me also happens to my kids. I've been stuck a long time and let XW push my buttons and I react to her.
No more.
Frank
Plan ahead for the Christmas holidays with your C and girls.
Don't let it sneak up on you and find yourself unable to see C. Ask the C about a little security blanket visit just before and just after. Just saying give yourself that gift.
I missed a "before" appointment once upon a time with a C that didn't even call to ask why or check on me at such an emotional time of year. A college degree and billing system doesn't make someone a good C. It didn't seem professional or caring and I spent too much time on the floor, unable to make myself tell anyone or ask for help. Don't become That Guy. I saved money by not visiting the C again, but that probably slowed my progress in the long run and made things pretty rough.
Make sure you have some plans with the kids and be around people as much as you can. Do things with them going into and out of the holidays that don't mirror what you would have been doing with X. Do something different just to be with the girls even if it isn't totally holiday related - just talking family love here.
So, XW and OM are coming over this morning to get the furniture she wanted. I'm putting them outside and leaving the house so she doesn't have to come in.
Bank called me a couple days ago to tell me the house will be foreclosed in the next 1-2 months. XW was "So sad you couldn't keep the house". Yeah, right.
Well they came and picked up the furniture and one of the Kayaks. I was gone but D18 was home. I noticed that D14's bedroom door was open. Her bedroom (when she visits) is upstairs, so I asked D18 if D14 came with them.
She said no, why, then said "Oh, I left the door to her room open". She then went on to explain that her mom called her on her cell and wanted her to come outside to talk while she was here. D18 said she didn't want to (because OM was here) and so she decided that her room (which is downstairs and has windows that face the front yard) was too exposed and she didn't want her mom to see her and maybe knock on the window.
So she went to D14's room and read her book until they left.
She's really having a hard time this holiday season. Last year was pretty bad, but at least then OM wasn't thrust in her face as much.
Frank, I am not trying to be a dick here or anything, but this:
She shared with me that when she went to her grandmothers on Friday for thanksgiving dinner, when she walked in the house and saw OM there, she had a breakdown.
She said she was used to seeing him at her moms condo, but being at a 'family' event seemed so wrong to her, that he shouldn't be there.
She said she just lost it and cried and ended up going into the bedroom with her boyfriend and sobbing.
She said her mom came in to talk to her, telling D18 that she is an adult and needed to act like one. D18 said 'mom was really angry at me'. D18 said she told her mom "I may be an adult, but I'm also your DAUGHTER". D18 said that after this, XW was visibly shaken.
Anyway, D18 said dinner went well and there were no more incidents. She also said that since they've been back, her relationship with her mom is different. Her mom seems to be affected by what happened.
I think this is the first time XW has actually seen the pain she has caused. Up till now she has seen anger.
D18 and I are getting closer. She told me that she likes living with me because I'm a parent, and I act like one.
Somehow I'm going to make my life work, and my daughters lives also. I'm getting over everything and not feeling sorry for myself any more.
Happens way to often in your world. These conversations need to stop and you need to teach your kids to deal with their mom and that relationship that they have with her. You seem to care way to much about what is going on in her world and allow the kids relationship with their mom to become a substitute for your own relationship with her.
It is becoming a rare occasion to have a post from Frank that is about Frank and not about his kids and their mom, or Frank and their mom, or their mom and her family, or their mom and her boyfriend. Don't you want to quit caring about all that nonsense at this point?
Ian
I totally agree with Ian. The more you can remove yourself from the small drama's of others the better. You have enough on your plate with the foreclosure of your home pending, focusing on work, and having fun with your daughters when they are with you.
I am very sorry to hear about your financial troubles, but keep in mind that right now you are not alone in this. Tough times dont last - tough people do.
Yeah, I guess you're right. Too much drama. It just kills me to see how much D18 is hurting now.
Happens way to often in your world. These conversations need to stop and you need to teach your kids to deal with their mom and that relationship that they have with her. You seem to care way to much about what is going on in her world and allow the kids relationship with their mom to become a substitute for your own relationship with her.
I hadn't really thought of it that way but I can see how it's a 'relationship by proxy'. Still too codependent and I need to ACCEPT that this is over.
Don't you want to quit caring about all that nonsense at this point?
Yeah, I just don't know why it's so hard to stop.
it's about power Frank
You make her the villian of your life and of your girls' lives
by making her the villian
you give her loads of power
you can listen but it feels like you almost enjoy the connection that this commiserating brings
dangerous road
you are not their friend
you are their dad
encourage them to talk to their mom about the issues they have with their mom
because I am sure there are issues they have with you that they don't talk to you about but that they talk to their mom about
the only hero
and
the only villian
in your story
should be yourself
Sometimes I wonder who I am, who I've become. I've stayed stuck for the past 2 years. I know it's my own fault for staying stuck, I should have taken better control of my life.
Life does get better, right? Sometimes I just feel pain all day and I just want to die. I'm hurt, scared, lonely. Not much of a man right now.
Once upon a time I was at the top of my game. Now I'm at the bottom and things keep getting worse. I know I can change this, I just don't have the energy and I feel so alone.
Yeah, I'm whining.
Frank, it is certainly ok for you to have your "down" times (we all do, for whatever reason). But, the key is NOT to get STUCK there. We can all look back and see things in our lives that we should or could have done differently. We need to learn from those things and move forward.
Frank, you are becoming a father that your daughters can depend on...someone that they can respect and look up to. Continue on that path...continue forward.
YES, life DOES get better!! I have been where you are and felt the way you are feeling. It was only by the grace of God and the love of my family and friends that I was able to pick myself up and move forward. And, I thank God that I did!! You have a chance at a new start, Frank! Instead of focusing on the things you SHOULD have done, focus on the things that you CAN do now!! Find that inner strength, Frank, and use it!
You are NOT alone, Frank! You have two daughters who love you very much and who are counting on you to provide stability in their lives. You have friends here that care about you and want to see you be the man that we know you really are. Take time to set goals for yourself. Write them down and place them where you can see them. Then, start working on them...a little at a time, if you have to. Take a mental day every once in a while to rest and regroup and then start back again the next day. You don't have to accomplish everything at once. Just do what you can, when you can, and keep moving forward.
You can do it!!
Deb
it's about power Frank
You make her the villian of your life and of your girls' lives
by making her the villian
you give her loads of power
you can listen but it feels like you almost enjoy the connection that this commiserating brings
dangerous road
you are not their friend
you are their dad
encourage them to talk to their mom about the issues they have with their mom
because I am sure there are issues they have with you that they don't talk to you about but that they talk to their mom about
the only hero
and
the only villian
in your story
should be yourself
Kudos for a well written piece, as were so many, e.g., Ian's and Kerry's....
you are getting good advice from men here Frank. Listen to them. They've been where you are now but they got better. Also, "Victory" in these situations is not determined by how happy or miserable your xw is, but how you are doing. And only you control that. Remember this. Plan for the holidays and the rest of your life now.
j-
Kudos for a well written piece, as were so many, e.g., Ian's and Kerry's....you are getting good advice from men here Frank. Listen to them. They've been where you are now but they got better.
Also, "Victory" in these situations is not determined by how happy or miserable your xw is, but how you are doing. And only you control that. Remember this. Plan for the holidays and the rest of your life now.
j-
Yeah, this past week I hit my emotional bottom. I don't want to make anyone the villian in my life any more. I'm so tired of everything that has happened because I LET it happen.
Letting go now. Not 'trying to let go'.
Letting go now. Not 'trying to let go'.
I'm not sure what to say to you.
I have heard this before.
Frank you have such potential.
You have some amazing support in the RW and here.
You did this once before, but you cannot seem to find out how to do it again.
I have called you a mouse and you get angry at me.
I have told you to be a wolf, and you condesendingly woof back.
How is this Frank:
Pity or Respect
Pick the one you want people to give you.
You fell of your horse, but you didn't get back on it. Why not?
I actually prefer it when you get angry, because it seems like you have some fire in you again, but now, I think you know that I like that and do it just to assuage me. Because you like to please people.
Get Frank back, Get the Frank back that saw the possibilites not the potholes. Fukc man do it for yourself and your daughters, that would be an awesome present.
Frank -
Do you still have the parasail? Maybe you should get back into flying. Join a parasailing club in Malibu.
I can guarantee that if you get out and do some activities that you enjoy that it will be the best thing for you.
I'm not sure what to say to you.
I have heard this before.
Frank you have such potential.
You have some amazing support in the RW and here.
You did this once before, but you cannot seem to find out how to do it again.
No, I can't. Not so far. It's because I gave up and withdrew and life got worse. And the cycle kept going. And the people I picked to help and support me here were poor choices. And it got worse.
And over time everyone has given up on me. Because I gave up on me.
A few days ago I just couldn't take the pain any more. So I went to an AA meeting I normally don't go to and asked for help. Help learning how to get past my spiritual emptiness. Help getting through the pain. And I got help, and I'm learning what to do again. Not to give up.
You fell of your horse, but you didn't get back on it. Why not?
I fell too far, and XW was always there as a reminder, as a source of pain. That's my fault and I'm working on getting past it now.
Get Frank back, Get the Frank back that saw the possibilites not the potholes. Fukc man do it for yourself and your daughters, that would be an awesome present.
Yeah, it would. I'm doing what I need to do and hoping some good will come out of it. I appreciate the support of all the people here. I've been so sick for so long, I think I became addicted to the pain and to being a victim.
My daughters still love me, still support me, still respect me.
It's hard, I'm doing my best (finally) one day at a time.
I think I became addicted to the pain and to being a victim.
I want you to realize that
you said that, and I think you are absolutely right.
Stop the self deprecations. Do your best today, aim higher tomorrow, and stop kicking yourself in the nuts for yesterday.
I think I became addicted to the pain and to being a victim.
I want you to realize that
you said that, and I think you are absolutely right.
Stop the self deprecations. Do your best today, aim higher tomorrow, and stop kicking yourself in the nuts for yesterday.
Yes, _I_ did say that. I'm doing my best today, really doing it. Not just saying it.
Just popping in to offer a resource. Never can have too many of those. Use it to your own discretion.
www.newlife.comHappy Holidays Frank.
N.
Got the divorce papers signed by the judge today. Now single. So sad, for all of us.
I hope you realize that the only significant thing about today is that now you are not legally liable for your ex-wife or vice versa.
I just checked the calander and realize that mine was official one year ago from yesterday. Such a day means nothing emotionally to me now or back then.
The biggest issue for me is that my XW happened to have a huge operation on our official D day a year ago for which she was still on my insurance. At that time, she payed for any amounts above that which the insurance did not cover. But the stupid hospital/insurance billing department is now trying to get me to pay additional charges for something that happened a year ago. I think their computer system is really messed up and they cant give me any reason as to what the new charges are for. Oh boy, I can hardly wait for health care/insurance to be taken over by the government - NOT!
The biggest issue for me is that my XW happened to have a huge operation on our official D day a year ago for which she was still on my insurance. At that time, she payed for any amounts above that which the insurance did not cover. But the stupid hospital/insurance billing department is now trying to get me to pay additional charges for something that happened a year ago. I think their computer system is really messed up and they cant give me any reason as to what the new charges are for. Oh boy, I can hardly wait for health care/insurance to be taken over by the government - NOT!
Luckily for me, the insurance is in her name only, but I write the monthly checks. So I'm sort of a 'shadow' in this case with no liability.
Got the divorce papers signed by the judge today. Now single. So sad, for all of us.
Stop it..... just stop...... Today, no different than yesterday unless you make it different.....
Ian
So Frankie.....
Did you get the tree up?
House decorated?
Shopping done?
Stop it..... just stop...... Today, no different than yesterday unless you make it different.....
Ian
I'll make it better.
Stop it..... just stop...... Today, no different than yesterday unless you make it different.....
Ian
I'll make it better.
Good. B/C saying "so sad to be div" isn't dealing with what is reality. What's sadder than being div? Being in limbo forever. When do you think you'll give up the chains you are dragging around with you and start living your new life? The one with GAL stuff and 180's? Losing a house in this area is not a big fat failure. Hell, it might be brilliant. A lousy marriage ending is not the biggest disaster either. You need to move fast now Frank, b/c you are behind where you need to be and where you ought to be by now.
I wouldn't say that to someone not cognitively capable of "getting it", but you are smart enough to know this. And I believe strongly that "
Where the head goes, the heart will follow." So stop the "stinkin' thinkin'" and get it right in your head and heart and be happy. It's not so complicated. Why stay stuck? It baffles me.
( j )
A Letter to My Friend FrankDear Frank,
I choose to open my letter to you with a corny cliche line that gets bandied back and forth here on eveyone's threads, yet, truly has much meaning:
A heart is not judged by how much you love; but by how much you are loved by others.
You are loved here Frank.
Whether you stopped a moment of pain or kept someone from giving up too early or talked to someone when they were lonely....you made a difference in the lives of many people here. I'm one of them.
No one will ever know exactly why some people in life are able to take integrity and love to a high level and others, well, throw it all away at the first sign of trouble. Some choose to create, some choose to destroy. Some choose to take a shapeless object and sculpt it into a thing of beauty. Some can't stop and see the beauty of a wildflower on the side of the road.
Like the scene in
The Terminator, the blast goes off without warning and we are left cleaning to the fence while we are incinerated in anger and twisted emotions. We are painted with a much darker brush than the pastels that we really are.
Sometimes I believe that when the dust clears, the best thing to do is pick yourself up, dust yourself off, not look back and keep on pressing forward. Let the colors shine through again.
Divorce be not proud. It's time to start anew. This is a new beginning. It's a chance to go back out and risk....a chance to re-experience...an opportunity to find the love that the older partner was unable to show you. It's about new tools now. Like going to Home Depot and taking a plumbing course and installing a new sink. Yeah...there may be a few leaks the first time out, but, we learn and then move onto better and more exciting projects.
Frank, I've seen many people face death in my life. I've had to tell people they have cancer. When that spot shows up on the chest Xray, it's too late to say that you're gonna quit smoking. You can't go back and get that colonoscopy after the colon cancer has spread to the liver.
It BEHOOVES you now to go out and enjoy life Frank-0. It's time Frank. You've given SO MUCH time to other people in your life...to people here....to me....others. It's payback time and it's time to give back to yourself.
Companionship...respect...and love..is out there Frank....for you. It's up to you whether or not you choose to let it back into your life. Get the real Frank back and start enjoying again.
Make it so.
Eastern Frank
Good. B/C saying "so sad to be div" isn't dealing with what is reality. What's sadder than being div? Being in limbo forever. When do you think you'll give up the chains you are dragging around with you and start living your new life? The one with GAL stuff and 180's? Losing a house in this area is not a big fat failure. Hell, it might be brilliant. A lousy marriage ending is not the biggest disaster either. You need to move fast now Frank, b/c you are behind where you need to be and where you ought to be by now.
I wouldn't say that to someone not cognitively capable of "getting it", but you are smart enough to know this. And I believe strongly that "Where the head goes, the heart will follow." So stop the "stinkin' thinkin'" and get it right in your head and heart and be happy. It's not so complicated. Why stay stuck? It baffles me.
I didn't realize it was a 'lousy marriage' until now. I am dense I guess. But I see it now. And it wasn't just me, I had a lousy partner who I kept trying to please because I was insecure.
I'm taking actions to stop the 'stuck' and 'stinkin thinkin'. I'm reaching out and letting people help me. 3 meetings a day. No more medicating, pity, fear. I don't want to stay stuck any more.
I AM moving. I've suffered enough and I don't know why. I got caught up in my pity party, and staying in limbo and medicating. I realize now I need people locally to help and I'm making connections.
Living one day at a time.
It BEHOOVES you now to go out and enjoy life Frank-0. It's time Frank. You've given SO MUCH time to other people in your life...to people here....to me....others. It's payback time and it's time to give back to yourself.
Companionship...respect...and love..is out there Frank....for you. It's up to you whether or not you choose to let it back into your life. Get the real Frank back and start enjoying again.
Too much isolating. Now I'm making sure I go to meetings where I know people and I reach out. I need people in my life. For real, not just in Cyberspace.
hmm, not sure what (if anything) to do about this.
apparently XW is sending Xmas cards to family that are from "XW, D14 and OM".
I am SURE D14 doesn't know about this.
Yes, we are divorced. However, D14 is not part of the OM hit parade. She probably has no idea these cards have been sent.
advice?
Dont do anything. Not your business.
You can't control the world my friend.
Poor taste? Yes.
Inappropriate? May well be.
Her problem when friends and family open the card and shake their heads? Absolutely.
Your D14 ... is 14 ... and her parents christmas cards should be none of her concern ..... please keep it that way.
Let it roll of you back.
Frank,
I'd rather hear about the cool Christmas cards you're sending out.
Yeah, poor taste and not my problem.
I'd rather hear about the cool Christmas cards you're sending out.
Agree. I've been sending out my own cards now for 2 years. I'll send you one frank if you FB me your address.
She is on her own now frank. Also agree that there is no accounting for good taste. Costco has some fun software to make your own card.
FIB
I'd rather hear about the cool Christmas cards you're sending out.
Agree. I've been sending out my own cards now for 2 years. I'll send you one frank if you FB me your address.
She is on her own now frank. Also agree that there is no accounting for good taste. Costco has some fun software to make your own card.
FIB
Amen to above. Spend zero time on this frankD. Zero.
NEXT!!j-
if that is ex's family (her, OM and D14) then that is who should be on the card...
I have a friend that sends hers out from her dogs...
I have never met her dogs
yet they send me a holiday letter and sign with their paw prints...
my ex used my engagement ring to propose to the little girl he was seeing...
crass and tasteless???
who cares???
he wasn't proposing to me again using it and I surely wouldn't have said yes!!!
OMG fig!
I dont want to ask how you found that out.
Did the little girl know it was used?
yup...she was proud of it
she came up to show me
something to the effect of
this used to be yours and now it's mine hahaha
I had heard about it from another friend
1st if I remember correctly
it was forever ago
and
he matters so much to me now that I can't remember
except for that little 20 year old's face showing so much pride and glee that he proposed to her using my ring
(eyeroll)
These teeth used to be yours,
Now they are the tooth fairys.
You showed more class and restraint than I ever think I could have.
Figgeroni,
That is unbelievable - she has a lot of gall!
she was also engaged to a big ole pile of poo
and she was so young
(and it was a trashy little ring anyway)
Merry Christmas Frank. FIB
Merry Christmas Frank...
Next year will be better. I know you're thinking "IT HAS TO BE!" and maybe that's the way to know that it really will be. But it's true...
Take care of yourself this week and don't sweat the small stuff. Show up for the girls and don't let them pity you b/c that sucks for them. Besides, sometime soon you'll see that you don't want or need pity b/c you are a free man and free men don't need pity. They just need to stretch into their freedom and start enjoying it.
Again, Merry Christmas, be glad you're not in Darfur, you're healthy and all that other cliched stuff that actually does matter.
Hey, I jumped out of an airplane @ 12,548 feet (but who's counting?) and Frank, the chute opened. It was amazing and beautiful but I'd never have known if I had not jumped.
J-
Thanks J and FIB. The girls stayed over last night and we had an excellent christmas morning. Better than I thought it could be!
I am blessed.
Thanks J and FIB. The girls stayed over last night and we had an excellent christmas morning. Better than I thought it could be!
I am blessed.
in the words of my then 3 y/o daughter, just after she successfully did a spin....
"Ta dah!!" Yes you are blessed!! And just maybe,
awakening...?? Hmm, let's have another...
TA DAH!!Frank you are starting to feel better and that feels good and that is good
and that is the beginning of the beginning! Keep going.
j-
Yes you are blessed!! And just maybe, awakening...?? Hmm, let's have another...TA DAH!!
Frank you are starting to feel better and that feels good and that is good and that is the beginning of the beginning! Keep going.
j-
It's been a long road.
..and the trip is not over. But...I love the saying that when you are at bottom the only path out is UP.
Life..is short frank. Time to start anew. Set some goals for this year even with some deadlines. Pick a project or two. Get flying again.
Happy New Year.
FIB
Just read through this thread. It was painful to read that you are now divorced and about your challenges. You are showing great strength and I see no self-pity. Your focus is where it should be. Good.
Hope you have a better 2010. Opportunities await. Wishing you well.
...and no squad cars in your driveway. Count your blessings. Here's to 2010. FIB
Frank....gives of some good news. Anything new? FIB