I have been posting on newcomers forum, but Sandi2 suggested I move over here. I've not yet figured out how to include a link to my original post (sorry, I'm blogging challenged), so I'll include a very brief history.
Discovered H's EA by reading emails. OW is younger, worked for H, married. At time of bomb, he was pursuing and she was saying just friends but not stopping his pursuit or professions of love. Since bomb (EA, ILYBNILWY, don't know if I want to work on M, etc.), he has moved out during the week and things have gone up and down, seemingly aligned with his R with OW (as she has accepted his advances, things deteriorate for us. We are going to MC about every other week, but he says he's just "not feeling it" for me. He has not admitted any contact with OW, but I have proof it has continued. He has distanced not only from me but also the kids, which is killing me.
I have been trying to DB and GAL, but face the same problems with detaching (so hard!) and backsliding I have read from many. I am committed to my M, but frustrated as don't feel there's a chance as long as he has hope with OW. I'm feeling played and don't want to be a doormat and thinking I need to set boundaries.
My question that I hope some of you guys that have experience and are doing so well will help me with is this - when you have MLC with EA (99% sure not PA yet), what type of boundaries can you set without pushing them away? Is it ok to discuss R and OW when it comes to setting boundaries? Anyone willing to share examples of boundaries you set that worked well to protect you and maintain some self-respect?
I'd really appreciate any feedback. Thanks!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1748627&page=4#Post1748627Here's your link, In Limbo.
You all help her out now. I told her there were great people here on the MLC forum.
Sandi
IN
Sorry you find yourself here
Im not sure I have exactly the answers you need but I will sahre some of my experiences with my MLC H
In my case, my XH also was having an A at time of bomb, she was 26 at that time, either D or M im not sure
he denied OW and we too went to MC, but it didnt help
Mine said all the same things to me
and he was staying out nightly till 2,3 or 4 am
I didnt know about OW, I suspected but I realized or felt there was nothing I could do
H was leaving and he was shutdown from me for many months until he left
For a time , he would leave the room, if I walked in
so sad..I db pretty good I guess
and we became friends,,I tried to validate him and thanked him for any help he gave for me or kids
He still movewd out, but would visit 4x aweek and we were friendly
I only found out about OW a few months ago...wow 2 years later
he is still with her living together..she is 28
so I confrointed him about her, he admitted it
I thought he would chose me,,but he remains loyal to her
he has also distanced from kids
It is hard
we have to take the extra load..be the mom and dad
therapy for you will help
let him go
try to validate his feelings,,like He says I am unhappy in the M
I hear you are unhappy
vent here
I probably would tell the MC about the A and see waht they suggest
but it probably wont help especially if your H is in beyong return with her as many of these mlcers are
peace
Sandi,
Thanks for finding me here and posting my link.
Sandi and Peace,
I appreciate any thoughts, advice, etc. you give. MC has said he's afraid to push H too much in session b/c he is afraid he won't come back. Heck of a thing when the C realizes how manipulative and deep into MLC that H is and isn't sure how to proceed with MC. I feel like H would be likely to at least work on M if he was sure OW would not work out. It's EA, not PA and she's married. She was abused as a teen and has a lot of baggage, says she loves her H and wants to be friends (as of emails discovered 3/11). But now she's meeting him outside of work, so who knows. He's manipulating her just like everyone else. It's taking all my self control not to contact her, out them to everyone, etc.
I did get a DB reaction last night that made me chuckle. H had emailed me and told me he would call when he was on the way to his extended stay place. He called around 7:40pm on my cell and said "are you not at home?" - sounded miffed. Nope, I'm NOT sitting at home waiting for your call dude! I was very pleasant on the phone (disussing scheduling of kids, etc.) but did not launch into any other conversation. I have mixed feelings about that. One of his complaints is that we don't have anything in common, nothing to talk about, don't have fun together, etc. So when he doesn't intiate a conversation outside scheduling, should I do so or should I just get off the phone?
I'm looking for good 180 ideas and also for information on boundaries setting for MLCers. Any suggestions?
Hi IL,
You can check out my recent history here with my two threads..I would say avoiding any talk about the OW or his A is extremely helpful in keeping your H from seeing you as the enemy. If you attack or disparage the OW, or your H for having an A, he may pull into the trenches even tighter and definitely see you as the enemy -which is obviously NOT the goal.
There are some great books I've read about affairs: After the Affair by Janis Abrahms Spring and also her her book on How do I Forgive you..for down the road. Read the archived threads from the MLC forum-there is a LOT of good info on what to expect from a spouse going through a MLC. It helps to educate and understand the nature of this journey so you aren't expecting the unattainable.
Great support here on this forum. Boundary setting(not my forte) should be mostly about keeping you sane and healthy. You'll figure out where those boundaries are by your comfort level with what goes on with your H. If he treats you as a doormat, then decide where that boundary lies and state it and stick with it...If he is disrespectful-set a limit on what you will take. Its about what keeps you healthy..
"One of his complaints is that we don't have anything in common, nothing to talk about, don't have fun together, etc"
Heard the same thing from my H..as you read people's threads you will see how many of our spouses have said the exact same thing-verbatim. You will know that you are not alone. Hang in there!
KJ,
Thanks for posting. I did read a lot of your sitch, but haven't finished it all yet. It has been very helpful. Just got back from my awesome GP doctor and she has recommended a good IC and given me something to help with sleep. That will be welcome. Turns out her best friend had an EA then PA and she didn't even know. Friend and H reconciled and are very happy now, which was comforting to hear.
The problem I'm having with boundaries is that I'm not sure what will keep me healthy and sane at this point. I want to say NO MORE OW, but know that's NOT realistic. Like you, I saw improvements when contact with OW seems to not be going on, but as soon as he starts back with her then everything I do is an annoyance. How do you keep yourself from slipping up and mentioning OW? How do you keep from "snooping" to learn what's going on? Ugh! Makin me crazy.
H just cancelled MC scheduled for tomorrow and also can't make the time of the backup appointment I scheduled. I hate to be paranoid and mind read, but I think he's decided not to continue MC. Really no need if you don't want to work on the M, right? Anyway, since we won't be going to MC tomorrow, I think this is a perfect time to try my hand at going dark. He was supposed to keep the boys for a while tonight so I could go to a meeting, but I haven't heard from him and will just let it slide if I don't. I WILL NOT contact him unless it's an emergency regarding the kids. He is still living at home on weekends, so I should have no reason to see him until late Friday night. I keep hoping that the lack of contact will help me detach.
You hang in there too. I'll hop over to your second thread now and keep reading. It's funny, two months ago I had NEVER posted on an online forum and now I feel like it's my lifeline. Who ever knew there were so many going through this junk?
Hi IL,
I'm not surprised about H cancelling MC..thought that might happen. Someone in MLC isn't thinking about saving their marriage-they are thinking about living the life they think they've missed out on. They want their fix.
Remember if H is in a MLC he will not be acting like a normal, sane man who wants his marriage to improve. Don't expect the normal.
I have to say I still have alot of jealous moments about my H's OW, I still snoop just slightly-more to see what H has been looking at online-where his head is at. I've googled OW, still don't know what she looks like. The only salves to that wound are 1) one text my H made after he 'reunited' with OW that said he didn't see making a life with her, and 2)the fact that his workout buddy had told me H said he'd had some fights with OW and she was scary.- My H is a man who avoids conflict like the plague so...
I also have experimented and any mention of the A or OW pushes H completely away from me and makes him see me as the problem/enemy. So since that is NOT what I want, I have successfully created a new habit of avoiding those subjects most of the time. I have mentioned OW only when H has told me he's gone cycling, asking if he did with OW-he seems to tell me the truth(lately) and I don't make much of the answer one way or the other.
I wonder about the A/OW much of the time, usually weekends when H doesn't contact me or the girls-those are the hardest. Its easy to focus on the OW. BUT, its not helpful to your sanity and health, so try to focus elsewhere and definitely avoid confrontation about the A/OW with H. Journal or vent here. Avoid talking to family and friends-read my thread regarding that..I've made many mistakes along the way(and its only been 4 months!). Keep reading. Info is power.
KJ,
I have been good about talking with family and have only told 2 friends, chosen very carefully, and I only talk with them maybe once a week. Reading, journaling and venting here have been my salvation.
I'm really angry right now. I had planned to go to a meeting tonight (part of my GAL work) and Friday H had suggested we meet, swap off the boys and he would keep them while I went, then I would get them back and take them home. We discussed it last night and he acted put out (remember HE suggested it). I told him not to sweat it, I could make other arrangements and he said no, he just wanted to make sure I understood I HAD to get them by 8:15 because he had to get to his class on time. I was cheerful and said sure, no problem. So tonight I drove all the way over to where we were to meet and we waited and waited. The time for my meeting came and went. I called him (didn't know what else to do) and he didn't answer the phone. I left a chipper message that maybe I misunderstood, blah, blah, blah. When he never showed, the boys didn't understand and were worried. How do I know if it's just the MLC irresponsiblity or if something's happened to him? Guess I just wait and see if I hear from him. I'll be darned if I'm calling again.
As for the OW, I do know what she looks like (gorgeous, young, skinny of course). I even met her a while back (before EA). It's hard because when we're around folks he used to work with (she worked for him at his old job), they mention her and have no idea what's going on. H is a very private person, so I wonder how he'll feel if/when it comes out.
I'm struggling with GAL because many days I just don't feel like doing anything. Everything feels faked. We moved here about a year ago and I haven't done a good job of making friends and we have no family nearby. I just feel so isolated. I know I need to reach out and change that, I just find it hard to have casual conversation when your thoughts are consumed by this roller coaster and nobody knows. We haven't even told our kids for goodness sake. They just think Daddy's "traveling." Detach, detach, breathe, breathe, detach, detach....scream!!!!!!!
thry like to live a secret life and double life
at least mine did
they are very irresponsible in MLC and they get worse as the progress in it
you are handling it well -staying upbeat ,validating and letting go
It is very hard
over time-it gets easier to let go more
at first I didnt wan to GAL either
I found this country dance place
It was like a gym and I liove to workout
so i started going every saturday about 1.5 yeras ago
I had a single girlfriend, so she came too
we learnrd to dance and usually have fun there
still go 2x a week
It helped me so much but many times I would be so sad I could hardly dance and I would stay out 1-2 hours
Now I can really enjoy it
so
fake it till you make it
peace
Venting.....welcome anyone else's thoughts or venting too.
H never called last night after failing to meet me to keep the boys and still hasn't called. Even through all the craziness, this is completely new behavior. So I'm going through the stupid process of racking my brain trying to figure out what happened. I know it's useless, just haven't developed the self-control to make it stop. UGH! BUT I will NOT contact him. I guess if he does contact me, I put on a smile and act like it's no big deal (THAT would be a 180 for sure)? Do I tell him the boys were concerned or would that be laying guilt on him? Do I use this as an opportunity to discuss boundaries around when he'll have the kids? Right now it's all me all the time unless I'm on business travel and then I still have to set up sitters for nights he has class and mornings he has to leave for work early. I've always been the primary caregiver (almost exclusive caregiver) but it's almost overwhelming when coupled with this emotional roller coaster. I feel so much for those that have really small kids, not sure how you guys do it.
How can they do this to their kids? What do I tell the boys when they ask where he is and why he never showed? (note: we haven't even told the boys he's moved out, they just think he's had lots of business travel with new job)
It's good to read everyone else's posts to see that even if M doesn't make it, there are lots of folks out there that survive. I'm in a foul mood this morning because I took something to help me sleep last night and did sleep (good) but had the first dream I've ever had about H and OW (very bad). So it's been hard to even pretend to detach this morning. Think I need to go back to setting short term goals and get myself to focus there whenever I start to go down the path of what ifs....
In
I experienced a lot of irresponsibility with my XH especially when our D was going on
I tried to set boundries and encourage him to Be ADULT
but mine is like a rebellious teen and he would sometimes honor a boundry once then break it
so
You can try to nicely set limits especially where kids are concerned
but
dont expect anything
he is not the same now
his committment to you and your family is now changed
I have spent many times talking or listening to my kids about their pain regarding dad
I try to explain that Dad is doing the best he can
he is in crises
hopefully he will figure it out
we pray for dad
\my kids 7 and 13
are gently letting go
they still love him but they too dont expect to much from him especially the 13 year old
it is sad but out of my hands
I pray my kids will be ok and I sense they will have stuff but will overcome
you try your best to take care of you
and just be there for kids
my R with both my kids is so much better thanm while H was here
house is peaceful..calm and filled with Better energy
remember there is hope here no matter waht happens you will be better than befoire and your kids will have that
peace
A few thoughts:
Don't bring up H and issues/concerns about him in front of boys.
Don't expect anything from H at this point-he's not reliable.
This may be an area to set a boundary for you-regarding what he needs to do if he is unable to fulfill a commitment.
Let your boys reaction to H be their own. A message of disappointment(or whatever they feel) that is sincere from a child has more power to affect a MLCer than anything you can come up with. Your boys need to feel empowered to express their feelings to your H. This is something I'm definitely learning as I go, with regard to my daughters.
Your anger regarding H not being there for his boys, is YOURS. IF the boys feel it, thats OK, but learn to separate what you feel about H's actions with boys, from how they feel.
Hang in there. Plan to be on your own for awhile. Expect nothing. Do something nice for yourself and your boys!
Hey Limbo first thing is first...that was dream. Unless you are psychic...its your subconcious keeping you 'entertained' while short term memories are turned into long term ones. Letting a dream put you into a bad place...it is just a dream.
What are you going to do if it turns into a PA? That is something you should prepare yourself for.
Peace and Kjensen are giving you some great advice.
And if that sandi is the sandi I know then she is a good person to listen to as well.
MLc is a long hard walk, how are your shoes and feet?
Thanks so much guys! It's good to have some folks to talk with.
I don't talk about issues with H in front of the boys at all. In the past, I've made excuses for his bad behavior but I'm just tired of that. I do sometimes just say I'm not sure why Dad is that way/did that and encourage them to talk with him about it. Is that ok? H accuses me of "turning them against him" but he just won't face the fact that they are bright young men that have their own minds, thoughts, feelings. I am very careful about what I say around them and always try to be very positive about H around them.
If it turns into a PA, I'm not sure I could handle that. We were high school sweethearts, never been with anyone else. So, if it becomes PA then I think I would not want him in the house any longer and would want a formal legal separation. I'm leaning toward that at this moment anyway because I feel like he's already given her heart to her and it's becoming so painful to be around him. Until about a week ago we were getting along very well but now everything about me seems to be an irritant to him and he's so angry/short with me over nothing all of the sudden. Until I figure out how to detach more, that attitude is killing me. Not sure my shoes and feet are ready for the long hard walk of MLC. I'll certainly have to toughen up ALOT! Part of me wonders if he's trying to see if he can get me to react and wants me to ask him to leave. He keeps saying he doesn't want to be "that guy" and maybe if he can get me to ask him to leave permanently, then he can say "she is the one that kicked me out." Is that a typical MLC thing? Or am I mind reading????
I went to MC by myself since he couldn't make it. Our next appointment isn't for two weeks and if he doesn't go, I'll keep going for IC. The C is a proponent of marriage, but also of tough love. It's hard for me to know how tough love will impact a MLCer and what the difference is between boundaries and tough love. And what's the point of boundaries anyway if MLCer won't respect them? I guess boundaries are really for us LBS? The point at which we know we can't continue or must take action of some sort?
Sorry, know this is long and rambling. My concentration today isn't worth a dime and my thoughts are scattered.
After work, going to pick up my boys and do something. Maybe I'll take them to the Y and work out and then let them swim.
No expectations of hearing from H the rest of the week and actually don't want to talk with him. Too much going through my head to try to act "as if" and cheerful.
Boundaries...
No MLC is going to respect the boundaries at first, and because of that no LBS is really going to enforce the boundaries at first.
So for a while you learn what you can live with, vent and be a doormat. Really, you basically becoem a doormat for awhile all the validating and babysteps and no r talks or I love yous.
Boundaries come down the road, when you have some experience under your belt and some self respect... That sounds weird...let me just say that too much self respect and your not married, not at first. You're done and your seeking a divorce. Too much self respect at the cost of marriage respect...and yes I know he isn't respecting the marriage...well if he is in MLC he doesn't respect much of anything in this temporary insanity.
Boundaries come later. When you are able to live up to them and enforce them. You make one and cannot livee up to it...then you REALLY are a doormat and they don't fear your reprocussions.
You have to believe in MLC to make it through this though...many cannot, many don't believe in it and that's fine...I am pretty sure that those that don't believe in it are the ones that are no longer married. Not saying that if you do believe in it you will be...just saying it helps to believe that somehting is crushing their mind and morals in their crazy little head.
Read up on the resources at the top.
Telling your boys is fine, as long as you are doing it where they are not pawns.
JTB
Thanks for responding on boundaries. Aside from detaching, that's been my biggest issue/question/concern. Right now I don't think H respects anything or anyone or fears any repercussions other than maybe "looking bad."
I have a question. I seem to remember reading in DB that LBS need to get spouse to respect them. Is it different with MLCers? Because I would think being a doormat and not having a lot of self-respect would be counter to trying to get them to respect you. What are the DB principles that don't apply/are different when dealing with MLC?
Another question - when not initiating contact, GAL, etc. How should you address things that H said were big issues for him in the past. For example, he said I never just sat and watched TV with him, when I emailed it was just a "laundry list," and didn't keep him informed on what was going on with kids/family. So now do I make myself available to watch TV with him, send emails that are more than just the basic kid scheduling details, etc. Or is that pursuing?
What resources at the top are you referring to? Top of the forum? I'll take a look.
Aye, aye, aye...makin me crazy!
The LBS needs to have the respect of the spouse...but that doesn't happen for a while in MLC.
I believe that the techinques of DBing work in MLC...it just takes longer and is a bit different. Alot in some cases. That respect comes down the road, in piecing. Besides you can never demend that someone respect you...ok you can, but you'd be a fool to expect anyone to respect you just because they told you so...kind of like "trust me". : )
some issues on the laudry list must be taken care of later.
IF for example you never initate sex...and you guys aren't sleeping together, and he has made it clear he doesn't want too...he doesn't mean initiate sex with someone else.
You could try watching TV together but it might be an example of too litle too late in his head. We LBS tend to go overboard to make the MLCer happy and they see it for the trick it is...and it is.
Make changes for yourself, make good positive changes you want in you that might reflect the laundry list...or might not. You have time to kill...sorry to say a lot of time to kill use it to your advantage. The LBSers who figure that out quickly are the ones who do better mentally...ask anyone else in here. : )
Yep, H accused me early on of making changes just to please him. I know I was really guilty of that immediately post-bomb. But now that I've had more time for reflection, I think it's still true to some degree, but now I'm only making changes that I would also want to make for myself and also making some that are things he's never mentioned b/c I know they're things I need for ME. One of his complaints is that I'm not organized enough (he likes a spotless house, no clutter, closet organized by type of clothes and color, etc.). I've not really done anything in this area yet as it's not made the top of my list yet and it really would be just about trying to please H.
Opinion - H hasn't been calling the boys when he's gone. Should I encourage them to call him or would that be perceived as pushing/pursuing? I'm not sure when he says he needs time apart to "get his head straight" if that means just from me or from the boys too. What do you think?
BTW, do you have a thread? I'd love to know your sitch.
I think it might mean that he would like time to himself. I'd see it as pushing.
My thread is in the MLC archives, they are old and full of fluffy huggy bunny stuff. : )
So how did your sitch end up or are you still DBing? Wow, fluffy huggy bunny stuff....that must have been some kind of MLC...maybe MLC with lots of mind altering drugs or something?
S7 is having a breakdown right now. Better go try to resolve the issue. Man, sometimes it's so hard being the only parent. At least before bomb, even though H wasn't usually home I could still call him and talk. Now I feel like I've got nobody to discuss things like mundane kid stuff with. Guess I'll post here and talk to the dog.....
Me and my wife are married, better than ever before. I am glad for having gone through this hell but I'll only go through it once. I will also say that I would have been glad even if me and my wife were not still married.
I am still DBing, because it is a way of life. Learning to talk and communicate not take each other for granted and speaking up for yourself in good ways. So I will always be DBing...
I'm here because I'm addicted to this place and trying to help people. : ) Seriously I can help people here, and I feel indebted to DB for the lessons I have learned.
JTB,
You've no idea how comforting it was to just read your post, that you're still married and here to try to help people thru this. I went to C today and while he is very pro-marriage, he doesn't see why I should continue to put up with all H is doing. By the time I left, I was really questioning if there was anything to DB other than preparing myself for life alone and if I am a fool for sticking around. Maybe it's my codependency that's making me stick with a relationship that isn't worth fighting for? I think those are things I'll continue to evaluate, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet.
There is more to our historical sitch that I haven't gotten around to posting and maybe now is the time. I think it will help me to journal it and may help someone else give me better advice.
After dating in high school, thru college and a year after we got married (7 yrs dating). In a period of 7 years, H lost his dad (military casualty), his only sibling (freak accident) and 3 grandparents. He never dealt with any of that. The entire 22 years I've known him, he's only cried 3 times and he refuses to talk about his dad or his sister at all. After we had our first child is when we both acknowledge that things began to fall apart. I was a superstar at the company where we both worked and was being promoted like crazy. While he won't admit it, I believe that was hard for him (especially since we worked for same company). He didn't want to grow up and continued to party and not be involved as much as a dad as I would have liked and I didn't cut him any slack. Eventually, we moved 2 times for his career and I let mine take a backseat, thinking that would help the R and our family (more time for me with boys). But over the next 7 years we just continued to grow apart.
Three years ago, I almost became a WAW. I was fed up feeling like a single mom with H to take care of also, felt H was being emotionally abusive to kids, etc. After trying (I thought) to talk about it, trying to get H into MC, etc. I filed for D. I was influenced by well-intentioned family and friends and a L that convinced me there was no other option. After filing, I changed my mind and one night we just started talking and it led to reconciliation. I committed then that I would never again leave or use D as an option. BUT, big mistake was we didn't get into MC and really didn't deal with any of the issues. Also, I was never able to really get beyond what H had done and see all the MANY ways I contributed and changes I needed to make. End result was we went back to old ways and things ended up worse than ever, leading up to EA by H and where we are today. I believe H was entering MLC before I filed and a year ago it hit full force. Or maybe what I did triggered it to go from depression to MLC?
At any rate, I feel different from many of the LBS because I knew there were problems, just didn't know how to fix them or what to do to even try. The night I found the emails between H and OW, I wanted him gone, wanted out. But then the next day an awareness began to creep over me of all the things I've done wrong and all the things I need to change and how I am not responsible for H's EA, but have played a part in the R crumbling to the point he had a void the EA filled. It's the first time in our relationship that I really was able to see past his faults and see my own. That's when I realized that if there is any way to make this work, I want a new M between us. It's also when I realized that I HAVE to not just find myself, but develop a better me. So I guess it's no wonder H left, no wonder he doesn't see any hope for M, doesn't know who I am (heck, I don't even know). But I love H, have hope and will hold onto that as long as I can.
Sorry for the long post...I'm giving Sandi and run for the longest post!
Sorry for the long post, full of good information...?
But then the next day an awareness began to creep over me of all the things I've done wrong and all the things I need to change and how I am not responsible for H's EA, but have played a part in the R crumbling to the point he had a void the EA filled.
You are so far ahead of the game right now...you have no idea.
This is amazingly good stuff for you. : )
BTW in 20 minutes I go home for the day and I am not on the computer when I am at home. My failing in my marriage was I ignored my wife and children by being on the computer and playing computer games all the time. Like some virtual world where I'm a level 60 spell caster actually means something of worth somehow. : ) So I'm not ignoringyou I'm just not around.
You want a time killer? Go look for my old posts...or Brand New Days, she is a good one to read.
JTB,
Have a wonderful night and enjoy your family. I'll go look for your posts. It's a true blessing to have someone who gets this craziness to talk with. I think it says a lot about your character that you were able not just to save your M but also to keep coming here and helping others.
Take care!
I'm not always this nice if you re screwing up...bear that in mind. Good night.
Just when I thought I was doing well tonight...I go downstairs and find a receipt for another movie H bought for OW. The movies were Serendipity and Love Actually (H mentioned to OW in emails that it was no coincidence they met and hit it off when they did). That, coupled with the titles of all the songs he's been putting on CDs for her has me totally deflated right now. How do you know if your MLCer is one that actually has found his soulmate and you aren't it? How do I know if H is not the one I'm meant to be with? How do I know anything right now? I know, I know...if I detach and GAL then I'll be ok either way. But that is of no comfort right now. God, this hurts.
Hi IL,
Last posting before my trip. Others here will tell you to protect yourself financially-so think about how you might go about doing that. I did have a hard time thinking that my H was spending our money on the OW-just plain wrong. Thankfully, he has only been spending his business' money on his stuff since he moved.
JTB has great advice. I read Brand New Day's and Yellowrose's threads for info.
I can relate to realizing that you had a part in getting the relationship where it is. Hard realization, humbling. Doesn't excuse the MLC behavor, but it is healthy and good to realize we aren't perfect either and definitely have room for improvement. So use the time to improve yourself whether it ends up helping improve your M to H or a relationship with someone else some other day...
My D11 has lots of meltdowns. She did when she was little and H travelled for work..changes in routine do it for her. It is hard and I can easily get fried and that is when I have my pityparty cries after the kids are asleep. Then I wake up with Lovely PUFFY eyes(after age 40 they just don't deflate quickly!)
Hang in there. Find a way to do something for yourself now and then. I wish you a Happy Mother's Day-your sons are lucky to have you as their mother!
Since H began working such long hours and going in at 5am a couple of years ago, one of the things we have often done is to go to an early morning breakfast as a family. This has continued about once a week even since separation. With the extra distance this week and H's seemingly increased infatuation/addiction to OW, I had not even thought about having breakfast this week. I was honestly hoping not to have to face H until late Friday night when he came home. But at 4am this morning the phone rang and H asked if we would meet him for breakfast. Not alot of "conflicts" I could say I had to be unavailable, so I said sure. I got myself up and made sure I looked as well as one can at 5am (cute clothes, makeup, hair, the whole bit). On the way there it occurred to me that the more I imagine life without him as H, the more I try to come to terms with him loving OW, the easier it is to detach. It gets harder when he's home and behaving like we're still together (hanging out with kids, joking around, ML). So I guess I've got to figure out how to detach without pushing him away. It goes back to fear, I guess. If I can stop being afraid of what might happen if....and just live my life the way I know is best for me and the boys at this crazy juncture, then things would probably be better.
At breakfast, I was cheerful and did not initiate any physical touch and avoided all "hot topics". As he was leaving, he hugged me, looked into my eyes and said ILY. I'm not sure according to DB if I should say ILY back, but just not say it first or what. So I said ILY too. He asked me "what's wrong" like he always does, no matter how I act. It makes me want to scream b/c he KNOWS what's wrong and I really don't want to talk about it and just wish he'd quit asking. I just smiled and said "nothing, why?"
I will not contact him today or tomorrow and when he gets home tomorrow night I will be cheerful and doing my best to act "as if." This weekend, I will not bring up R or OW or any other "hot topic." It just seems so fake right now. I can't confront about OW, can't discuss R and really don't feel like talking about trivial stuff. We had been still ML, but right now I'm not sure I can continue that. My boundary has been that if it feels ok, I'll continue. My concern is if we don't, that may be more fuel for EA to go PA. Not sure if that's valid line of thinking or not. Regardless, I'm going to just be true to what I feel is good and healthy for me.
Saturday night we will be hanging out and having dinner with two ladies he used to work with and their families. I'm usually pretty shy, so I think this would be a good time to do a 180 and show him my new more social self. Plus, they still work with OW so it might be good for it to get back to her that we looked happy together or at least I did or whatever. Know I shouldn't focus on what OW thinks, but the thoughts come to me anyway.
S7 has a baseball game tonight, so that will be a welcome distraction. Need to get more GAL going, but with the kids' activities it's a challenge. I'll have to try harder.
I like your idea for a 180 with the woman friends for dinner
your are doing well..
peace
Limbo,
You continue to impress the heck out of me.
It goes back to fear, I guess. If I can stop being afraid of what might happen if....and just live my life the way I know is best for me and the boys at this crazy juncture, then things would probably be better.
EXACTLY!!!
If I can stop being afraid of what might happen if....
Oh it is hard to do...but look, the LBS is the one that is in control of the situation. You don't believe me right now...that fine. You stick this out and you will. Its not really about control or power...but you have it. Any time you want to quit and its over, the relationship might get better because you aren't giving up, you're still married because you decided to be married. Your choice to do what many find themselves unable to. Your chocie to be a doormat...for a
little while.
Physical contact is your choice. For some it works for some it doesn't...I will say this Limbo and I am sorry for it. Get used to the idea of an physical affair. Most of them have one, and really...nothing you do or don't do will prevent or stop it. It is not about you, you cannot fix anything this is one of those sucks lessons about that...you cannot fix it, you cannot stop it.
Acting as if...doesn't mean wearing a plastic obviously false smile around.
Him asking what is wrong...you can be honest, and unload and get into an R talk and push him away.
OR
You can be honest and say simply. "I'm just trying to come to terms with this, it will take a little while."
Honest doesn't mean floodgate honesty.
For the record.
"What's wrong?"
"Nothing"
That reply is the foundation to most relationships ending. You stop talking and that just leads to a bunch of other things stopping as well. : )
Yeah, the fear thing is a huge obstacle for me. It's easy to say stop being afraid, but much more difficult to make yourself actually do. I guess you're right that I do have the power to end it whenever I choose, but it still feels like he is in control. Both of my options seem like duds while he seems to have options that are both positive for him. Ok, leaving his family for a 27 year old married girl is not really a positive option in my opinion, but it sure does seem to have some positive aspects for him (finding his "soulmate," getting to have a beautiful young woman, remarrying and having more kids, etc.). Guess I'm just in a sour mood today. Shame since it's so beautiful outside.
GREAT advice on how to respond to the "What's wrong" question. Right now, he doesn't know how much I know about current situation with OW. That has been difficult because if I didn't know what I do, I'd probably not be as emotionally charged as I am now. BUT I can't confront him and so I was unsure what to say other than "nothing." Now, thanks to you, I have an alternate response.
As for stopping talking....I'm concerned about that right now because he's not coming to me to talk. I'm guessing he's taking everything to OW. For example, a couple of weeks ago he got a DUI (yet another classic MLC event to add to the list). I did a great 180, didn't jump all over him, was supportive but didn't minimize it, validated when he talked about what a wake-up call it was, etc. For a few days we seemed to move closer, were talking alot, etc. Then suddenly things got distant and tense, especially after a long evening with OW (that he lied about of course). I'm not sure how to get him talking again. I tend to freeze up now because I'm so afraid I'll wander into R or OW land without even realizing where I'm headed (sort of like getting in the car and driving toward work on the weekend out of habit).
Weird, I'm not looking forward to him coming home this weekend. Not sure what that means. I get sick at my stomach when I think of him looking at me and lying to me more. Guess if I puked on him that would REALLY push him away,no?
It's exhausting. Gotta get in a better state of mind before tomorrow night, that's for sure.
PS - Soulmate = BS Twilight crap. : )
Intellectually I know it's crap, but there's a part of my heart that wonders what if it's true. Mind games and illusions kicking in....
Look, I'll not discount soul mates. I believe in them in fact.
HOWEVER,
True Soul Mates being together shouldn't involve the following:
Lying
Pain
Regret
Compromising Morals once held in high regard
Know what I mean?
Yep. H said at the beginning of all this that he had seen how his father looked when he looked at his mom. He said he's never felt that with me. BS - I've SEEN him look at me that way. BUT, guess that's all part of the script. Mmmm...wonder if MLCers ever become actors with all the the script reciting skills they develop.
Done with my pity partying for the day. S7 has baseball and I'm going to go redo my face and take off for the ballpark. Goal for tonight is no tears, no being snappy with the kids and to get my lazy butt out of bed early tomorrow to treadmill. Also need to find somewhere to be tomorrow night so that we're not sitting around waiting for H to come home. I thought about getting a sitter and going to a party (friends from work, couples, not a wild thing) but I just don't feel right doing that to the kids right now. Plus, then I'd have to let H know and really don't want to contact him.
Question about a 180. I have always taken care of all the responsibilities in our M. From kids to house to bills to making H doctor's appts to taking his dry cleaning, etc. With a MLCer, should I continue to do all of that or should I do a 180 and ask him to take his own dry cleaning, pick up his own meds, etc.? I've always considered it a labor of love, something that made his life easier. But I'm feeling WAY underappreciated right now and wonder if I should cut that off. Previous C said to just let his laundry pile up, but that seems petty. I don't want to be petty but wonder if I should take a stand in any way and make his life a little more difficult or if that would push him away. What do you think?
180's don't change good habits into bad ones.
Although controlling behaviour could be lessened.
Have fun tonight. Be attractive to yourself, the world will follow.
Mmmm...wonder if MLCers ever become actors with all the the script reciting skills they develop.
Yes. Mine has taken to the stage.
I think the treadmill or
any physical activity is great b/c it helps you burn off that anxious/angry energy and helps you to focus on doable options that will be good for you.
Jack hit the nail on the head with "the world will follow" comment.
HUGS
Mistake?....I was at the ballpark tonight and H calls. Probably shouldn't have answered, but that was one of his big complaints pre-bomb, so I do try to answer when he calls. Wanted to meet us for dinner. We did and everything was ok, we even laughed some with the kids. He hugged me several times (I initiated no physical contact). We ended up talking in the parking lot for over an hour - no R stuff just about his dance classes, etc. He noticed the weight I've lost and commented positively.
BUT here's what I'm trying to figure out how to handle. Saturday night a lady he used to work with and her family are supposed to meet us at the ballpark, watch S7's game and go to dinner. It's been planned for a while and I confirmed with H Monday that he still wanted to do this (before confirming with her.) So tonight he says he didn't realize it was dinner, thought it was lunch and that he has a dance class Saturday night at 7 that he's already paid for (even though there are no credit card charges for it.) 180 for me was that I did not react, did not offer to make excuses for him, just asked him what he was going to tell her. He said I could go without him (WTH - this is HIS friend!). I am not going to make excuses for him here, not going to call her and cancel. He can figure out what to say (more lies). When he left he said he would think about cancelling it, but didn't sound very convincing. She works with OW and it will be everything I can do if he ends up bailing and I'm stuck with them not to say anything. Talk about torture. And get this - there ARE NO CLASSES on Saturday night at 7pm (of course). Yes, I checked (bad I know) - it's posted on their website. SOOOO....how do I 180 this one? Go ahead and have dinner with them "as if"?
Good things about tonight - I had no expectations and the more I looked at him and listened to him talking, the more I didn't feel what I have been these past few weeks. It's like I'm beginning to detach the current H from the one I used to know and I'm more able to dislike this current H. I didn't even freak out thinking about what he's probably really doing Saturday night. Does that mean I'm detaching? Who knows...all depends on the minute I guess.
He comes home tomorrow night and I'm not looking forward to it. Weird.
Grace - LOL - actually took to the stage, huh? Well, at least he's putting it to constructive use. Mine has taken to dancing. Doesn't it seem odd to anyone but me that a H would take classes in a couples thing when his W can't do it? Even pre-bomb it was so hard for me to be interested because it was a symbol to me of how much I was no longer part of his life.
I feel so much better after exercising - it's just the motivation that's hard to muster sometimes.
Take care!
Hi In Limbo,
I didn't want you to think I had left you forever! But, as you see, you have had good folks to come talk to you and I knew they would. Glad you came over to this forum.
As for the dinner date with H's friends that he set up......I am thinking maybe Jack the Bean would be the man to tell you how to handle this. I may tend to be a little tough on the H.....
Personally, I think under the circumstances of everything involved, I would not cover up for him and I would not go to the dinner with them since it is his friends and they work with OW b/c I think that is unfair of him to expect that of you and put you in that situation. If he refuses to even show up at the game or he doesn't even call them to let them know ahead of game time.....then I would just tell them that he bailed. Plain and simple. Why make excuses for him? Why fill in his place for dinner with them? If they were friends of the two of you, then it would be different. But, maybe Jack will have a different opinion and share with you.
This was a question you had a several posts back, but I wanted to share my POV.
How can they do this to their kids? What do I tell the boys when they ask where he is and why he never showed? (note: we haven't even told the boys he's moved out, they just think he's had lots of business travel with new job)
First, as you already know by now, he is in MLC which also causes him to be in a very thick brain fog. He thinks of nobody as much as he thinks of himself......which I think he has proven time and time again.
I personally think you should have a scheduled time set for him to see the boys. Not just a schedule day, but a time slot on that day. I would give him so much time in that "slot" to show up to get the boys and tell him that if he is not there by the end of that time slot, that you will assume he is not coming for them and you will make plans for them to do other things. What you or the boys do is of no business of his and you do not owe him an explanation if he asks. It is not right to keep you and the boys waiting all day long to see if he is coming or not. It puts your life on hold and keeps the kids tense and upset.
This is JMHO, but don't you think the boys need to be told the truth about their dad not living at home? I believe they probably have figured it out, but they may have something worse imagined......who knows? I really don't think it is fair to them to try to continue to keep it covered up. I know you want to protect them, but I personally believe you owe it to them to tell them. They could possibly be relieved to some extent to know the truth b/c as I said, they may think something worse is going on with their dad. I know you are thinking, "What could be worse?" But, we never know what is going through kids' minds. I also think you should stop covering for him all the time. Even knowing it hurts the boys, and you are afraid they will think their dad don't love them anymore, etc. They deserve to know the truth about him not living there. I would not go into detail about the OW at this time. I would tell them that their dad is going through some tough personal complications in his life that he is having to sort out and it causes him to not stick to his schedules like he should or to put things in proper priorities, but that he does love them in spite of how strange he may act at times. I don't know if that is a very good explanation or not. You can probably think of a much better one. I would not over-do b/c I don't think your H should be defended too much to the kids (like mothers tend to do) b/c he needs to answer to them himself.
As for having the boys to call him......I would not mention it unless they ask to call him. I believe if your H wanted to talk to his children that he would call them. He may believe you are using them as a means of getting close to him yourself.
I know all of this is extremely hard for you. I know watching your boys suffer is terrible for you. Maybe I am too hard on the H's who leave their families. There is a time for understanding and a time for tough love. To know which time to do what is the catch.
Take care, and I'll talk to you later.
Sandi
Of couse you have to say all of that in an age appropiate way......as people say on here. Because you don't want to say something that would cause them to worry more. If the boys ask questions, I would answer them as best as I could without telling too much and without lying. Hard, huh? You know you don't have to do what I suggest. It is only my thoughts.
I will keep you in my prayers.
Sandi
Mine has taken to dancing. Doesn't it seem odd to anyone but me that a H would take classes in a couples thing when his W can't do it?
No, it isn't odd. Sad, but not odd. I used to dance...
Motivation can be tough. Sometimes the only motivation I can muster is just the shade of peace I get from it.
Sandi,
Great to hear from you! I agree that we need to tell the boys. I am going to ask H for us to do that Sunday. I dread telling them but I also want my children to trust me and the current situation is not building trust. Over the last year, H has been leaving before they get up and coming home after their in bed, so they have just assumed that's what's going on now and I haven't corrected them. But they may know he's really not coming home and just be afraid to say anything.
I think you're right too about set times with the boys. He's using the weekends now since he's home every weekend, but I think that needs to change. If he's going to continue to not only go wherever he wants all week (including seeing OW) but also do his own thing on the weekends, then why the heck should I allow him to live at home? The whole point of being home on weekends was to spend time with the kids and with me and see if there was any hope for R. If he's communicating with OW, going out Saturday night (I assume with OW, but can't prove it) then what's the point?
I woke up this morning worried about the weekend. One of the things H always says (classic MLC) is that we don't have anything in common anymore. Tomorrow we have a 2 hour drive together and I find myself dreading the conversation. I feel like every conversation is being graded. Was I funny, was there a connection, did I avoid R/OW talk, was it interesting, etc. Also, I feel like I'm being constantly compared to how he feels when he talks to / sees OW. If we don't talk, it just reinforces his claim. So last night I was feeling like I'd taken a step forward with detaching and this morning I'm feeling like during the night I ran a mile backwards. Somebody needs to invent a detachment drug - take two and feel nothing anymore for the MLC spouse.
Take care of yourself Sandi!
Grace,
What type of dance did you used to do? I don't think I could ever do dance. My coordination/timing is just not that good.
In Limbo,
When you take that two hour drive, don't feel as if "you" have to fill in the moments of silence. We women think that some type of conversation has to be going on all the time. However, it is not up to us to keep it rolling. In fact, he may welcome the silence or it may even get him to talking.
You be "you" and don't let him take that away. 180's are good as long as you don't lose who you are down deep inside. They are to improve the stitch trying to find what works and what doesn't. You are working on yourself to improve you....for "you".
When I suggested telling the boys the truth, I really wasn't even thinking about the H being there and the both of you doing it together. He may or may not agree to do that. I kind of think he may not want to if it makes him look like the bad guy to his boys. He's probably rather put up that smoke screen so they can't see the truth. But, if he won't agree to it, if I were you I would tell him that you are not going to lie to the kids any more just to cover his a$$.
Take care,
Sandi
Sandi,
You're right, I'm tired and thru lying to everyone to cover him. He will want to be there to tell the boys because he says I'll "spin it" to make him look bad. HELLO....no spin really needed, yeah? But seriously, I am not a husband/dad basher and would never paint him in a negative light. However, H would consider me telling the boys that dad's confused or that this is not what I want, etc. to be "spin." He'd rather lie and act like it's mutual and just because we can't get along.
Gotta go to a Mother's Day tea at the school, but will post more later. My mind is racing this morning and I'm feeling like I'm done - tired of being played and tired of worrying about everything. I guess this is the point where you ask yourself is it worth it to continue, can you continue, etc. This moment, I'm seeing so much of MLC in H that I can't feel the real H would ever be back or that I could wait as long as it takes. I know for those that have been doing this so long that seems so wimpy. Maybe it's just the high emotions of dreading the weekend.
Limbo,
Is there anyway you can take a nice long walk before the drive? I always find that calming. I know your nerves are just screaming. It's hard to stop the comparisons, but keep working at it. Afterall, there is absolutely no better
you anywhere in the universe.
Btw, there are no wimps here. We all do the best we can for as long as we can. When we know better we do better. That's all there is. Of course your "expectations" of the weekend are getting in your way. Make no mistake they are expectations, but that doesn't mean you can just put them aside. I like to expect the best and plan for the worst. So far (mostly), it works for me.
One of the things we told our D's was that "sometimes is a marriage there are frustrations and unhappiness and it needs to be worked out before things can get any better". While it let him off the hook I suppose, I didn't (and still don't) see any reason to say "Dad's not happy and has to go find himself and fall in love again and make somthing of his life". Do they know the truth of it? Probably more than even I am aware (they are 16 and 14). When I was asked once, I said that there were two adults (arguably) involved and both were to blame and that I was sorry.
It's hard and it sux, but you are so much stronger than you kow.
BIG BEAR HUGS
Grace,
Just got back from a Mom's tea with S7's class. It was SO CUTE! They sang songs and did a little skit and he was so excited I got to come - it was great!
We'll be leaving as soon as we get up, so I'm maybe I'll get up early and treadmill for a bit first to relieve tension.
What's weird about my expectaions for the weekend is that no matter what, I sort of feel like it's a lose-lose. If we get along, it makes it hard. If we don't get along, it makes it hard. I also think that's got to be confusing to the kids. They've seen us hug and kiss and do date nights more since bomb than in the past year. Now we tell them Dad's moving out. What kind of mixed message is that?!?!?
I need to find your thread so I can catch up on your sitch. I've gotten alot from reading what everyone goes through and how they handle things. Never thought I'd be so dependent on an online forum. Go figure.
Hugs back to you too!
Limbo,
I'm really glad you got to go to the tea too. It's all the little stuff, you know?
Treadmill is a good idea if you can manage it. I know even now, but esp early on I would have exploded without the exercise (no, I am not the exercise queen).
also think that's got to be confusing to the kids. They've seen us hug and kiss and do date nights more since bomb than in the past year. Now we tell them Dad's moving out. What kind of mixed message is that?!?!?
On ething it took me quite awhile to own (and arguably at times I still don't) is that I get to be angry for
me. I tended to project what D's might think and feel as a way of distancing my own feelings of hurt, betrayl and anger and not really dealing with them. It took me awhile.
I don't have a current thread. I keep meaning to start another one, but I've been gone for awhile b/c my plate is too full. Sadly, has to do with some serious stuff with D14. It will all be ok in the end.
Never thought I'd be so dependent on an online forum. Go figure.
This bb has been a life saver for me and I never would have thought either. The generosity, compassion and (when necessary) in your face comments are fabulous.
Grace,
I believe I have done a pretty good job so far of not projecting my own feelings onto S's. Pre-bomb, one of my faults was bringing the kids into fights with H because I was so protective of them and the way he treated them. I would also intervene on their behalf when I didn't agree with what he was doing. Since bomb, I have done a lot of soul searching regarding that and it's one of the changes I have made and think I'm doing well with.
Emotions are settling a bit now. Will see if I can maintain that through the day and even through the weekend. One day at a time...one day at a time.
I appreciate you checking in on me, especially with all you have going on. It means alot just to have a line of communication with someone who has lived this and survived.
Ah, the trick is to go for more than survival....and to
live 
Keep up the good work!
It means alot just to have a line of communication with someone who has lived this and survived.
Really? :p
You'll return the favor, that is how you pay back here.
Grace with the dirty face. : ) How is life treating you...nay...how are
you treating life? Wringing it out for all it is worth?
I certainly look forward to the day when I feel like I'm living rather than just surviving. I know it will come, just not here this moment. Gotta get out of this funk!
Next week I'm on business travel 2 nights and really looking forward to having some me time and also some time to hang out with my co-workers from all over the country. We only see each other face to face a few times a year and it will be a great distraction. Plus, gives H time with the boys which hopefully will be a good thing. So, I'll look toward next week and take this weekend as it comes - expect the best and prepare for the worst as Grace said.
Gotta go take S11 to the doctor. Strep throat is rampant around here - hope that's not it.
Limbo,
I hope it's not step. Either way, take care.
Jack,
Ever see "A Clockwork Orange"? Remember the "dance" sequence? I'm not the dancer, but I refuse to TAP OUT. All in all I am grateful and still have my twisted sense of humor ^.^
Well, it was strep. But we've got the antibiotic, so as long as nobody else gets it we're good to go.
H called and wanted to meet for dinner. So that's breakfast Thursday, dinner Thursday, dinner Friday. What's up with that?!? Anyway, we met and H actually complimented how nice I looked and teased me into sitting beside him in the booth. Everything went well except for two little "oops" on my part where I let it show that something bothered me. One was when he mentioned his dance teacher trying to talk him into going to a big party they're having soon. Without realizing it, my face gave away that I did not approve. He noticed right away and got a bit defensive, saying "don't worry, I'm not going b/c I'd have to wear a tux." Second time was when he teased me about asking him 14 times something (one of his major complaints is I ask too many questions). All in all, I guess if that's all I screwed up then I did well. As we were leaving he called S11 over to his car and gave him a video of a band and told him he could watch it when he got home. The thing has a parental advisory on it! Ugh! Anyway, he's at dance class and I think my state of mind is enough better than earlier today to be prepared for him to come home. Thanks to Grace I'm remembering to expect the best and prepare for the worst.
H still hasn't mentioned tomorrow night. Should be interesting to see if he heads out for the dance class that doesn't really exist and bails on his own friend. Will deal with that if/when it happens and be glad if he doesn't go. No expectations...no expectations.
Happy Friday all and enjoy your weekend!
In Limbo, yes you are very tired, sweetie. You need a lot of rest b/c I'm sure you are not sleeping very well. You need to eat a well balanced diet and the exercise is very good for you. All three of these work together to keep your strength through this bad stuff you're going through and you need to stay well.
I wished the two of you could talk about what will be said to the boys, but I can see where he probably wouldn't stick to what he said to you. Anyway, I hope that there won't be an argument break out in front of them. Think of it this way.......even if he comes out looking like he is a great dad and it is a mutual agreement.....the kids are going to be asking "you" more questions later on. You will have a better chance at answering their questions in your own way.
I know you would not paint him in a bad light, but neither should you try to make him out to be a hero when he isn't! Guess that is just my POV, but so many mothers do that when the dad's have practically deserted their kids.
Well, I know this weekend is not what your dreams are made of, but hope you will gather your strength and be prepared to show you are the best mom in the world........b/c those kids think you are and don't let anyone take that away!
Take care,
Sandi
L
Is there anyway you could take dance classes with H
I know you aid you do not feel coordinated
but
I dance and itr doesnt take much really
and it is very sexual/btings closeness and attraction between partners
if your H wont mind, it may be worht the effort
peace
Peace,
H has told me he isn't ready for me to be part of that part of his life right now. I think that's because he'd rather share it with OW. Since she's married and he's pursuing her to be more than a friend (not sure if she's reciprocating, but I believe so), that's a way for him to invite her to public events. Yes, it's a sexual thing between two partners and that's why it hurts for him to exclude me. Just found the ticket for tonight and it's not a class at all (knew that b/c there ARE no classes tonight) but turns out it's a formal sit-down event to view a competition. Why wouldn't he just say "I'm going to a competition"? Because there would not be any reason for me not to go since he will not be dancing, just observing. Oh, and b/c he's probably taking OW too, yeah there's that.
What hurts so much is him holding me and loving on me....so confusing.
Will post more later when after take care of the kids....
It must be confuwing
mine never iniaited physical contact with me after bomb
he did have his A while we were still together though, but I had no clue
would it6 be possible to take a few classes dance on your own
tell him you have this new interest in learning to dance and try it
it may help for the future
and it would be a way to GAl and have fun
peace
My H is currently in EA with OW (she's 27 - what IS IT with these young girls - no way I'd have been interested when I was that age). I have no reason to believe it has become PA. I feel like right now he's just playing both sides to see which will work out. If OW reciprocates and indicates she might leave her H, I believe things will become different.
H is very suspicious of all changes I make and my concern is that since he gets angry every time I mention going with him to dances/parties/etc. that he might see me taking dance classes as trying to make fake changes just for him. I did however attend a Zumba class at the Y which is a sort of Latin dance aerobics thing. Might continue that to at least work on my coordination and rhythym. H does come home and have me practice with him.
I know that my sitch is not as difficult as many on here. My H is still coming home, still initiating physical contact, etc. I just can't stand living with all the lies. He has no idea how much I know and it's so difficult not to let it show on my face (I'm told I have a very expressive face). But I know that the moment he knows how much I've learned by "snooping" (one of his MAJOR hot buttons), then he'll totally back away. The heard thing is that so many of his lies are so transparent, there's not really snooping involved. He knows I'm an intelligent woman and very analytical, so I can't believe he thinks I don't see thru it all. I guess he's hoping love is blind.
This morning he asked if everything was alright. This was while we were watching the movie "Serendipity" that he bought for OW to watch - I guess to convince her they were "meant to be together." He held me during it and even initiated ML. WTH?!?! First I gave him the typical "Yes, nothing's wrong" answer but then decided to use J3B's suggestion and just told him sometimes it's hard to adjust to how our life is now. He just hugged me and didn't say anything. I guess when he stops asking, stops hugging, stops initiating contact, then that's when I know he's no longer conflicted. As long as he's conflicted, maybe there's hope.
Hope you have a good weekend. Seems like it's common around here that weekends are tough. Take care!
Limbo,
If you're interested at all in learning to dance. Go. Take classes. Tell him or not, doesn't matter. As far as being coordinated, don't make me laugh! It has taken me years to become as bad as I am at dancing! I am not being self-depricating when I say I do not have a natural talent for it and I'm not really all that graceful. I started b/c I was interested and H is a dancer (and sadly actually very good). I've done ballroom and Latin and even I managed to be in a few performances. So don't sell yourelf short.
I hope your sone feels better soon and you all have a good weekend.
BTW, just as an aside H talked about us telling the kids and then it was quite awhile before we did. That is after the initial "Mom and Dad are having problems" thing.
Take care sweetie.
I posted and my post didn't show up. Does that mean the thread is locked or was it just Grimlins?
Sounds like gremlins to me. If the thread locks the reply etc on the bottom disappear and only notify remains.
How's it going? Are you holding up ok?
I have done very well today and tonight, not bringing up R, not asking questions about where H will be tonight and certainly nothing about OW. Was pretty cheerful all day and H seemed to respond positively. BUT he still went out tonight, ditching his own friends. At the risk of getting thrown off this forum, I have a question that I hope experienced DBers (especially with MLC) will respond to.
Ok - don't freak out, please read through before responding....
I'm wondering if it is ever the right thing to do to contact the OW spouse in the case of EA. Here's my logic. OW's emails prior to 3/11 indicated she loved her H, was more interested in friendship but didn't want to hurt my H's feelings and I got the impression she doesn't know how to have boundaries or cut someone off when they cross the friendship line. My H is the type man that once he decides what he wants, he pursues it vigilantly and usually gets what he wants. Since then I do not see his emails/texts, but I know they have continued to be in contact, have attended a movie/party with a friend of hers, attended a concert, believe they have met for lunch, etc. His pursuing seems to be having an effect. I'm thinking that her spouse is sitting where I was in the past, fat, dumb and happy and has no idea that my H is actively pursuing her for something other than friendship. If I were to tell him (assuming he loves her and wants to remain married) the facts as I know them, he could possibly reconnect with her and encourage her to discontinue contact with my H. I do realize there are risks - he could leave her (doubtful since it's EA, not PA and H has been primary pursuer) or he could tell her about my contact, she tells H and he gets furious (ultimate snooping). I realize that even if OW stopped contact with H, that would not solve my problems or end H's MLC. I guess this is a combination of me not wanting to see OW's H lose his W like I'm losing my H and (if I'm honest) me trying to reduce the distraction OW is having on H (ok, yes, that's controlling). I don't want to get 6 months down the road and think that if only OW's H had known earlier, he might have rescued his M.
So, please don't kick me off, just help me understand the why's and why not's of doing something like this.
Nobody's going to kick you off. LOL!
Well some will say don't do it. While I know of a few others who are for exposing the affair when the op is married. If it truly is mlc then I doubt this will bring it to an end, end meaning the mlc. Sit quietly and think of all the positives and negatives that could possibly come of this. Be honest with yourself as to your motives behind all of this too.
Whatever you decide, I would keep in mind that mlc is a process that must run it's course. I do understand feeling for the op spouse who obviously will be or is already going through what you are.
I understand why you want to contact Ow's H. I don't see it as helpful. First off, rationaliztions are better than sex, and I think there may be just a smidge of rationalizing about "not wanting him to be where you are". Not that that isn't altruistic, I know myself well enough to know that it would really be about me and wanting to throw a monkey wrench into his sitch (or at his head as the case may be) with her. That "maybe if
she's gone he'll wake up and realize what he has". Doesn't seem to happen that way. Sorry. Perhaps there is someone out there this worked for.
he pursues it vigilantly and usually gets what he wants.
Usually is the operative word here. Sometimes we all need to be careful what we wish for...we just might get it.
If her H truly dosn't know, he will find out at some point if all this continues. His response is his at that point. If you were already friends with him my response
might be different, but even then coming from you, don't think it's a good idea.
I think this has much more potential of blowing up in your face than a bottle of nitro on a fast moving snowboard.
Just my two cents. Been known to be wrong a time or two.
Trapt and Grace,
Thanks for your responses, especially on a Saturday night. I will sit on this a while and reflect on my true motivations. I do know that as weird as it sounds, I feel sorry for this young lady and don't want to see her screw up her marriage b/c of my H. She was abused as a child, has phobias of being around most men, has too many chronic health issues to note and I believe my H is being predatory in his pursuit of someone so easily influenced. I gathered all of this from their emails, not from anything I got third hand. He is manipulating her and she is falling for it. Now, here is where I begin to question do I really want to be with someone who is manipulative and would take advantage of someone like her? Well, no. But I do want to be with my H minus MLC. I do not think her being out of the picture would stop MLC. No expectations there. Do I think it might make me feel better for a short while? Yes, until the next OW came along.
So, I will continue to reflect, but right now I really do want to so something to stop H's MLC from ruining another M. Guess that's the controlling me coming out. Want to save everyone, even from themselves. So, for now I'll wait.....
One more question....any advice on how to bring up boundaries in conversation with MLCer in the least explosive way possible? The boundary I want to reinforce, while restating my commitment to M, is that if H ever has physical intimacy with another woman, I want to know (think I deserve to know after 22 yrs of faithfulness). I initially set boundary of no further contact with OW and so he's just lied about that (set that immediately post-bomb before DB, before learning about MLC and understanding that it was not realistic to expect). I'm not ready to enforce that boundary, but am firmly standing on the physical intimacy one. How do I bring it up and how do I have the greatest chance of him abiding by it, not just lying like with contact with OW?
One more thing to consider...one of H's complaints about me is that I tend to "sweep things under the rug" rather than dealing with them. Sometimes I think by DBing I'm just sweeping more and more under the rug. I could hear the frustration in his voice today when he asked me if I was ok and I said yes, nothing's wrong and he knew that wasn't the case. So, I'm wondering how I can do a 180 with that without getting too much onto the R topic. It was almost like he really wanted me to bring it up. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it? I almost just told him that the movie was sad to me b/c I believe he thinks his "serendipity" is to be with someone else and I believe we are meant to be and that's difficult for me to take, especially when he's holding me and being affectionate (even intiating ML) while we watch it. Thoughts?
Man, it's so hard to detach when they're at home and gone and at home and gone......
Limbo,
Do you know how to tell if an MLCer is lying? They're breathing.
Ok, I'm sure this is an exageration....well, maybe.
I don't know how you would be able to inforce that. What you do have control over is what you do if you find he's had a PA. You have the option to ask him to leave at that point. Btw, you do realize how much power you do have right? It's had to remember that when you're operationg out of fear and walking on eggshells.
Don't keep bringing up the fact that you are standing up for your marriage to him. It's guilt in the mlc world. He knows this anyway.
Serious boundaries like that are only good if you plan on follwing through meaning your done if that happens. For sure. If you don't follow through then it's bad news. I wouldn't suggest that.
Boundaries like that come much much later in all of this.
As far as boundaries go at first. I think I would start small. I need to catch up on your story. Most mlc'ers go through the whole anger thing. If that is happening, maybe work on that. Like saying " H, it's not ok to treat or speak to me that way." Then remove yourself and don't engage until he respects that.
Just an example, I'm not sure if that is going on or not.
I need to catch up.
He is not going through anger. We actually get along very well these days. We just don't have any emotional intimacy and he's said that he's 95% sure he doesn't want to work on the M, but he continues to be physically affectionate, initiate contact, express concern about me, etc. His anger "hot button" right now is me "snooping" which he defines as anything that causes me to ask questions - even if it's reviewing credit card bills that I've always reviewed. Other than fighting over that, I don't know that we've had a fight since bomb. He does get testy, but it's exhibited by being short when he speaks to me. No name calling, yelling, etc. In fact, he just called me on the way home (midnight my time) so I wouldn't worry (he had a DUI a couple of weeks ago and since then has made it a habit to call on his way home - not by my request). Told me he loves me. I choose to believe that's not a lie. Maybe not the love a H should have for a W, but I do think he still cares.
Now that I think about it, the best way I can communicate to him that I'm committed to our M is to continue to be here and show him changes, validate and not push him on R, OW or other questions. Right?
I'm really struggling with what type of realistic boundaries I should set and which ones I should keep to myself and which ones to communicate with H. I feel like I'm being really "needy" on the board right now. Sorry guys. I just want so much to handle this the right way.
Grace,
I think I need to remind myself daily how much power I have. It's easy to lose sight of and often hard to convince myself.
Now that I think about it, the best way I can communicate to him that I'm committed to our M is to continue to be here and show him changes, validate and not push him on R, OW or other questions. Right?
That's right. If he gets a little "testy" give him space.
I'm really struggling with what type of realistic boundaries I should set and which ones I should keep to myself and which ones to communicate with H. I feel like I'm being really "needy" on the board right now. Sorry guys. I just want so much to handle this the right way.
That's why the board is here. For us to vent, ask questions, get support, and for me goof off from time to time. As J3B likes to put it we are all in this together, alone. Keep coming here.
Hi IL,
Happy Mother's Day! Just caught up on your thread. A few thoughts..Setting a boundary of knowing when a PA happens probably won't get you the result you want- your H most likely will not tell you(MLCers get very comfortable lying) and if you found out later and he Didn't tell you, then you'd count it as one more lie...
Don't assume that once H's physical contact with you stops that he is no longer conflicted. My H still hugs me periodically/rarely but no other contact really and is still very much conflicted(I think).
My H and I told or girls together that H was moving out. Actually H told them while I sat there b/c I didn't want him to move out, I didn't want to be a hypocrite and say WE decided H was going to move out. I felt he should be the one to tell them of his decision. BTW, they had already both figured out that something was wrong/up..kids do pick up on stuff no matter how careful you think you are around them. But I think it was good we were both there, telling them nothing change how we felt about them...
Try not to snoop. It took me awhile and I still do very slight snooping(what websites he's visiting)..My snooping caused a lot of anger in my H. Once you know what you know (about the OW/EA)...the rest is just compulsive feeding the fire.. Even though a MLCer is NOT trustworthy-they don't like to think they aren't trustworthy-so it seems to me that things that make reality clash with their 'perception of reality' tend to cause anger and upset.
If your H is paying for things and you don't see a record-he may have another credit card or account-just a thought.
You seem on target with our thoughts on how to communicate your committment to your marriage-show(consistently), don't tell. Be supportive, no expectations, as lovingly detached as possible.
You are doing well!
Well, the great support I got on the board this weekend helped me to stop before I spoke too soon and took any action I would regret. I'm still reflecting on how to handle sitch with OW's H, but decided not to mention anything about boundaries to H and successfully avoided all R and OW talk all weekend (go me!) The weekend went really smoothly and IMO we did not have any disagreements and only one little bit tense moment. This morning I even got a chance to validate (I think). He mentioned something about how I was always negative (speaking about a situation in the past) and I said "Yes, you're right, I was way too negative and uptight. I can see how that was really hard to live with and I'm sorry. It's something I am working on now." No reaction really from him other than a little bit skeptical look, but no sarcastic comment and he didn't throw an example of recent negativity back at me, so I took that as positive.
I'm traveling 3 days this week, so he will just stay at the house this week. As much as I dreaded him coming home this weekend, I'm ok with him being here after this weekend going so smoothly. When he left this morning he asked if I wanted to meet up at the Y to exercise together. I guess it's a good sign that he wants to do something with me when he could just go by himself or go out instead? Baby steps?
Lovingly detached...so hard. I feel like every time I make a bit of progress (or at least fool myself into thinking I have?)...he comes home and we have some "good" days and I'm back holding on. But I will continue to let him initiate contact and give him his space.
This morning I even got a chance to validate (I think). He mentioned something about how I was always negative (speaking about a situation in the past) and I said "Yes, you're right, I was way too negative and uptight. I can see how that was really hard to live with and I'm sorry.
Hey Great job!
It's kind of difficult to play tug of war when you let go of the rope. He was looking for you to defend yourself, and possibly argue with him. Then he could justify (in the mlc world) why he is doing all of this.
Keep it up.
One step forward and two steps back sometimes, but I do feel good about my actions this weekend.
Today I have learned that when he took the boys to shop for me for Mother's Day on Saturday, he also bought a purse and a watch that were not for me. I can only assume they are for OW. In addition to the hurt this creates, especially since our boys were with him when he made the purchase, I am again struggling with him spending our $ on OW. Not sure if I should just let it slide or if there is any way to bring it up.
Sometimes it just seems like every time I start to feel a little better about our chances, something hits me and knocks me back down. Any suggestions/thoughts?
Limbo,
Try not to assume about the purse and watch. Btw, did the boys just mention it in passing?
Your best chances are with you taking care of you and the boys. What does that mean to you?
HUGS
Grace,
Confession time - I went looking for the receipt for the earrings the boys got me (they are clip ons, not pierced type and thought I could swap them w/o hurting H's feelings) and found the purse and a tiny watch. OW has tiny wrists and I do not, so I know it's not for me. The bag was from same store my earrings came from so I know when he bought them. Was I snooping, not originally, but when I saw the bag I could have just left it alone. It's like a sick compulsion the desire for information that only hurts me. On the other hand, I pray for wisdom and discernment so how do I know if God's revealing stuff for a reason? Man, I'd love just one day of really detaching and not giving a rip what H does, how things turn out.
On one level, I think I know what taking care of the boys and myself means (physically). However, I still struggle with what that means emotionally. I waffle back and forth between is it best to keep standing for my marriage or is that demonstrating the wrong thing to the boys, to myself and to H(doormat). I tend to be a person that avoids conflict and be too self-sacrificing (H has accused me in the past of always being the martyr/the victim). How do I know if it's my pride making me think standing for my M is not what I should do (thoughts like how can I allow him to do this to me, to make a fool of me, to play me/use me/manipulate me) or if it's really time to stop standing or if it's time to do something in between (like ask H for a more formal separation)? How do I know if he'sMy goodness, I bet if I go back and look through my posts it's not even like a roller coaster, but more like a yo-yo.
Enough whining, now I'll journal some positives:
Celebrating 38 lbs lost and counting PLUS now exercising at least 3 times/week!
Laughing more often, smiling more - even if it's at strangers :), reading lots, liking who I'm becoming (most days).
Still need more GAL activities, but this is a positive start.
It's like a sick compulsion the desire for information that only hurts me. On the other hand, I pray for wisdom and discernment so how do I know if God's revealing stuff for a reason? Man, I'd love just one day of really detaching and not giving a rip what H does, how things turn out.
I used to wonder (and still do occassionally), if finding things made it easier for me to be angry and therfore back away.
As far as being completely detached, it takes time and even now I slide some. More than I'd like and probably more than I'd admit to openly.
I waffle back and forth between is it best to keep standing for my marriage or is that demonstrating the wrong thing to the boys, to myself and to H(doormat). I tend to be a person that avoids conflict and be too self-sacrificing (H has accused me in the past of always being the martyr/the victim).
You just described me in more ways thanI'm comfortable with. When you cna stop waffling at least some, you will have some "answers" present themselves for a place of peace. I think that's when you really know what's rght for you to do. If you can break out of the self-sacrificing mode (even just a little) it will help you. I use meditation to help me with anything I'm working towards in my life. If you're adventerous, give it a shot.
Congratulations on all your positives! I know how hard one some of thiese thngs are. Exercise is one thing that allows me to clear my mind and come up with (if not solutions) viable options.
Just keep bringing it all here, there are alot of good folks with big shoulders.
HUGS
I am again struggling with him spending our $ on OW
IL, I feel your pain about this.
I set a boundary very early on in regard to spending. I would pay the household and joint bills, but would not pay any expenses related to his A. If he needed more money to cover those expenses, he could take it from our reserves, but I would take the same amount for myself. So I saw none of his A-related expenses from the beginning. We have now expanded our financial separation to include all non-family recreation, entertainment and travel. Neither of us has to answer to the other in any way about those things, and since his needs are greater than mine, I'm building up a bit of reserve for myself. Would something like this that work for you?
Twink,
Did you discuss the spending on the OW with your H? I'm struggling with that b/c I'm not supposed to discuss OW or R with H. So how do I set that boundary?
Do you think you are able to set that boundary right now? Cause if you are, I'm curious what that boundary is exactly and what are you going to do if he crosses it.
Hey J3B,
Good to hear from you. I guess I want to take the same amount he's spending on OW and put it into a special account for me. Can I enforce that? Probably not.
Then its a paper tiger..and worthless. No offense. A boundary has to be enforcable.
STOP!
or...I'll say stop again!
Since I do the finances, what if I just the money and put it into an "InLimbo fund" just for me?
Ok, ok, I'll stop! Promise!
Stop was an example of a paper tiger.
And you could do that...are you prepared for the reprecussions of that when he finds out and you tell him why you are doing it?
My H asked me early on what he needed to do to make sure I could meet expenses. I replied that it was more about equal access to our joint assets, and suggested what I described. He did not object, and since then has willingly split extra income or suggested we each take equal amounts. I can enforce it because I handle the money. Perhaps my H is more reasonable, or less willing to deal with money matters himself, or afraid of the repercussions from his family if he is unfair to me, but it hasn't been a problem so far. Knock on wood :-)
Hi In Limbo, I've been catching up on your thread. See where you are very tempted to contact OW's H and reveal the EA. My advice would be not to do that. Several reasons, some of which you have named yourself. Have you thought that he may already know, just as you do? But, if you tell him, then he may feel forced to do something about it. I don't think the outcome would justify your problem with your H. Your H would either find another woman or get mad enough to leave you, but it would not make him stay faithful to his M or to snap out of the MLC. You are trying to
control the stitch, no matter how you try to say that you feel sorry for the OW, etc. (and you may do feel sorry for her, I'm not saying you don't) but you are trying to "make" him give up the OW......and that
IS controlling.
About boundaries......I have never been in that situation with my spouse, so I don't know that I am the best to give advice. However, I don't think you should give him a list of things he can or can't do b/c that certainly would not go over well. I think you have to take one thing at a time. Also, as Jack the Beans said, it is like paper if you threaten him and can't carry through b/c you have no power over it. Only make a boundary with what you feel you can actually do something about it if your H fails to respect it. It is all about what you are able to deal with. The first thing you need to do is to know what the deal breaker is for you. I think I have talked about this before. But it is very important that you know yourself before you go laying down any laws for him to live by. I think I suggested contacting Puppy Dog Tails about boundaries b/c he is pretty good about ideas for that. Jack the Beans is very wise. I agree with Jack, though, that you have to be prepared to back it up or it is useless. I would not be a doormat for him and allow him to treat me any way he chooses. He
would show respect me (especially in my presence and in front of my children)or I would leave........that would be the dealbreaker for me, personally. I could not ML to him if I knew he was in an A, but a lot of women can.....so you just have to decide for yourself.......not what "I" would do.
I find it hard to believe that it has not gone to a PA level if they are going to movies and places together. However, maybe it hasn't if she has problems with me. However, I see your H flaunting it in your face, IMHO. But, then people today don't seem to think there is anything wrong with friends of the opposite sex going places together without their spouses. I say that is a bunch of stuff b/c it opens the door for problems. I have never seen friends of the opposite sex leave their spouses at home and go out together and there not be problems down the line. It is not meant to be. Is your H aware that you know he is going out places with her? That just seems very inappropriate to me. Call me old fashion, but I've been around long enough to see "stuff". I just could not accept that behavior, but as I said.....that is me....not you. You have to decide what you can deal with and what you won't stand for.
I know it must be very, very hard on you and we are here for you to vent to, cry, or ask questions. As you see, we all have an opinions.......
Take care,
Sandi
H does not know that I know he is going places with her. In fact, he doesn't know I have any idea he's still in contact with OW. I believe he is meeting her for lunch and think that's just the 2 of them. The party/movie was a threesome (she brought a friend). I'm not sure about the other movie. I believe he is meeting her today and taking her gifts he bought while out shopping with the boys for Mother's Day. He told the boys he bought them for me, but changed his mind and may take them back. I agree with you, I don't think this is acceptable. I'm beginning to wonder why I even want to try this - maybe it is truly not meant to be. On the surface, we are getting along and he continues to be affectionate, throw in ILY every now and then, but knowing what I know is beginning to make me sick to my stomach. What kind of person can do what he's doing? I know he's MLC, but it's inexcusable. I need to think about it today, but I may have reached my breaking point. Maybe he needs to go and be free to see if she truly is his "soulmate," free to ruin her M too, free to MLC all he wants fully separate from me. Then if in the future he decides he wants to come back, I'll just have to see. It's humiliating to me for him to lay in bed hugging me, ML, knowing he's planning to meet up with her and give her gifts he bought with our children, courting her. I'm not sure I can deal with so much deception and blatant disrespect. I have a lot to think about today....
Now even more to ponder. H just called and said instead of going wherever he was going tonight he wants to pick up the boys. And he wants to know if MC can see him individually today or ASAP. My take - he wants to talk with MC about how to break the news to me that he's done. Yes, I'm guessing. Probably shouldn't try to anticipate. But given how the ILY's have diminished, the gifts for OW, etc. and just sensing his mood, I bet I'm right. Only other thing could be if he wanted to try to figure out how to work on M and I can't see that being the case if he's still involved with OW. Seems like he'd break that off first? Anyway, I don't want to have expectations, but don't know how to stop the mindwheels from churning.
Guys - please keep me, H and our M in your thoughts and prayers today. I feel something coming.
H was not able to get in to see the MC today. But things are coming to a head. He has started R talk and a lot of things that he blames me for and resents me for are coming out. I'm not sure how to respond other than to validate and apologize for those things I believe I should apologize for. He says he feels like I emotionally abandoned him years ago. Our problems go back to when S11 was born and I put children before H and M. I cannot change the past. I was only part of the problem, H contributed as well but I had told him I was willing to move past the past and I mean it. I'm ready to forgive all the past problems if we can just move forward and deal with the issues - get to the root of it and fix it. He is skeptical of all the changes I have made and said "after all these years that you haven't been here for me, you suddenly make all these changes and expect me to be here, to want to work on the M?" How do I respond to that? So far I've just said that I can understand how he would feel that way and maybe it doesn't seem reasonable. I told him that I do want to be married, to him, but not the same marriage we've had. Truth is, he'd have to make changes too but we haven't discussed that. I also told him that if he needs to go, to just go. I'm thinking maybe he needs to be totally separate from me for a while to figure out what he really wants and to see if my changes stick.
He's gone to dance class and said we'd talk when he got home. How do I DB through this R talk? Is this when I should be honest and open or should I just validate? Help?!?!
Your situation is much like mine. H lives at home and continues an EA. He spewed the same sort of anger at me--children before H, emotional separation, separate lives, etc. He is afraid to "try" with me because he has been giving, giving, giving and needs to get something back. Now, anyone who has observed us would never think he was the "giver" in the relationship by a long shot but that is how he felt. Also, I am in MC at H's insistence as he carries on the A!
I vote for validating when they are angry as that has gotten me the most mileage so far.
BPretty,
OMG - that sounds SOOOOO familiar! I'll have to hop over to see your full sitch. Does he know that you know the EA is still ongoing? My H is insistent his has stopped and one of his resentments is that I've "alienated him" from his best friend (OW). But the EA is still going on in some form as there are still phone calls/texts. Does your MC know H is having EA? How does your MC approach it when you want to work on the marriage and H doesn't know if he wants to? That has been a challenge for us.
Yes, we (me, H, MC) all know the EA continues.
I'll channel Jack T B here and say that your H doesn't have to insist the EA is over if there are no questions, demands, accusations, raised eyebrows, etc.
I think we feel the same in that if our H's care enough to do what they are doing for us, we must have some control/power over the EA escalating to PA. or some responsibility. or something we can DO for gosh sakes.
The MC is basically now doing IC on H. H wants me there. He says he wants to be connected to me and refers to EA as unhealthy. He wants to figure out what happened so it won't happen again. He has stated he is almost sure he doesn't want to pursue a "real" relationship with OW. (However, the not-real relationship continues and the "unwinding" is glacial slow). There is no direct discussion of the A at this time.
My IC says we are working on the marriage even if H says he doesn't know if he wants to. She tells me it's not linear and literal.
I'd say with your H, he is essentially 1/2 out the door, so if you still want a shot at an M, validate, appreciate, seek to understand.
Limbo,
First off, breathe. He may or may not discuss this with you tonight. If he does, listen. Don't be thinking about how you're going to respond to what he says. It's ok to take it all in, validating if you uderstand etc. and then tell him you want to think about all that he's told you and you'd like to talk again. Then really think about it. That he may be ready to go doesn't mean he doesn't have valid points that need to be heard. I know you do too, I don't think now is the time for your turn.
HUGS
Did have some R discussion last night and this morning. Not sure I handled it best, but mostly validated. Basically, he said he feels like for the past 11 years our M has just been a habit, that we haven't really been happy. On that issue I told him I understood what he was saying, but that I did not feel the same way. He also said that he feels like for the last 11 years he didn't mean anything to me, that everything he did was wrong, that he was nothing to me or the M. I have no idea what he's talking about and do not agree, but I listened (is this std MLC stuff?). I did not debate with him, but I did get upset, which is bad because he says he can't talk with me when I get upset. It's just so hard not to get emotional when you're talking about something of this proportion. All of our R talks are centered on me - what I've done wrong in the past, what changes I'm making that he doesn't believe will stick, etc. I guess that's pretty standard for this point?
All night I kept waking up with him holding me and kissing my forehead and such. What the heck am I supposed to make of that? I guess he still cares on some level? Maybe he thinks it's helpful to hold me b/c I'm hurting? Honestly, it seems to just make it worse b/c it's confusing for me. It's one of those mixed signals that gives me hope when maybe it really shouldn't. Any thoughts on that?
I'm leaving on travel this morning and will not see him again until Friday night. I will use this time to think about what I really want. What I want is a magic wand to go "poof" and fix it all, but since those don't exist....
Limbo,
You're right that is difficult not to get upset. Cut yourself some slack there too. Perhaps next time you find yourself getting upset in a convo with him you could say that you're getting upset and would like to calm down and talk later.
Mixed signals are the pits. It's really hard esp at first not to over analyze everything they say do and don't say and don't do. I'm curious about your comment on "hope". Do you not think you should have it?
If you can work it in while you're away perhaps some nice long walks (or if the place you're staying has a gym) you could work off some of the anxiousness and it would help you think more clearly.
If you have computer access keep posting.
Are you on facebook?
HUGS
Limbo,
Use the time to figure out if you want to be married I fully agree. While your doing that let me remind you that you're pretty new here so you're going to bounce.
Look, saying I know its MLC but its disrespectful is like saying I know its a dog, but does it have to bark? Sadly, Yeah it does. Wouldn't be much of a life crisis without all the confusion and crap that goes along with it.
The suck part...is you know this crap because you snooped. and now...now you can't saying anything about it (well you can...and guess what? I'll bet you will down the road, that will be a fun day! Wait until you see how upset they get when you tell them you found all their little secrets, its almost funny)...so in a weird way...it's you fault. Ever hear that ignorance is bliss? Well it is. He doesn't know you know, so why would naything change on his part iof he doesn't want to truely rip your heart out?
Look Limbo, this isn't easy. You're going to have to be tougher to make it. And really if you figure out you cannot forgive him, then give up now, if you are going to hold this over his head for the rest of your life then quit out now and find someone else to help you raise your boys.
If marriage was easy, they wouldn't need vows. Better or worse. Yeah he f-ed up and will f up more. I hope you feelthat MLC is a mental breakdown because that certainly helps. "In sickness and in health" Health is easy...better is easy. Life isn't easy. Cowgirl up, show your boys what they want in a wife.
Grace,
I'm an engineer by degree, so statistics make some sense to me. I'm also not a betting person. So when H says there is less than 5% chance he even wants to try to work on the M, I'm not sure I should have hope. Ok, I can also say that even if there is only 1% chance, it's a chance. It's just that sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy and fighting for something that is hopeless and maybe not worth fighting for. I just need to think this week about what I want.
J3B,
I'm so glad you're back. I was thinking maybe you'd given up on me! You're right - I got this from snooping and I'm paying for it. Morbid curiosity I suppose. Yes, I will have to be tougher. I am a strong person, just let my emotions get the best of me at times. Once I figure out what I really want, I think that will help. I guess some folks here thought they were completely happy pre-bomb. I've known for many, many years that we had problems and I just wonder if we could ever have the R that I desire or if that's being unrealistic.
I can forgive him and would completely forgive him today if he came clean and truly committed. "In sickness and in health..." - I hadn't really thought about it that way. MLC is certainly a sickness. I don't want someone else to help raise my boys. I just want their healthy dad to do that.
Hang in here with me guys!
Grace,
I'm an engineer by degree, so statistics make some sense to me. I'm also not a betting person. So when H says there is less than 5% chance he even wants to try to work on the M, I'm not sure I should have hope. Ok, I can also say that even if there is only 1% chance, it's a chance. It's just that sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy and fighting for something that is hopeless and maybe not worth fighting for. I just need to think this week about what I want.
J3B,
I'm so glad you're back. I was thinking maybe you'd given up on me! You're right - I got this from snooping and I'm paying for it. Morbid curiosity I suppose. Yes, I will have to be tougher. I am a strong person, just let my emotions get the best of me at times. Once I figure out what I really want, I think that will help. I guess some folks here thought they were completely happy pre-bomb. I've known for many, many years that we had problems and I just wonder if we could ever have the R that I desire or if that's being unrealistic.
I can forgive him and would completely forgive him today if he came clean and truly committed. "In sickness and in health..." - I hadn't really thought about it that way. MLC is certainly a sickness. I don't want someone else to help raise my boys. I just want their healthy dad to do that.
Hang in here with me guys!
Grace,
I'm an engineer by degree, so statistics make some sense to me. I'm also not a betting person. So when H says there is less than 5% chance he even wants to try to work on the M, I'm not sure I should have hope. Ok, I can also say that even if there is only 1% chance, it's a chance. It's just that sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy and fighting for something that is hopeless and maybe not worth fighting for. I just need to think this week about what I want.
J3B,
I'm so glad you're back. I was thinking maybe you'd given up on me! You're right - I got this from snooping and I'm paying for it. Morbid curiosity I suppose. Yes, I will have to be tougher. I am a strong person, just let my emotions get the best of me at times. Once I figure out what I really want, I think that will help. I guess some folks here thought they were completely happy pre-bomb. I've known for many, many years that we had problems and I just wonder if we could ever have the R that I desire or if that's being unrealistic.
I can forgive him and would completely forgive him today if he came clean and truly committed. "In sickness and in health..." - I hadn't really thought about it that way. MLC is certainly a sickness. I don't want someone else to help raise my boys. I just want their healthy dad to do that.
Hang in here with me guys!
I'm an engineer by degree, so statistics make some sense to me.
Oh, so you're one of those
logical people.
Ok, I can also say that even if there is only 1% chance, it's a chance.
Statisics are relative (to me anyway). If out of 1 million M's all but one is saved and that one isn't you. That completely sux. Now reverse it and only one is saved and it is you. This was posted to me sometime ago. Made me think. Doesn't matter the odds in my world. You either decide to go after it or you don't. If you can't, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just means it's something you couldn't do. Just as hanging in there doesn't make you a better person. It's all about what you chose. We all chose differnt things based on what we know about ourselves and what we believe to be right for us.
Do take the time to think about what you want. Use this bb as a sounding board too. Sometimes when you "say" it outloud you get a better sense of whether you really believe it.
HUGS
Yes, I'm one of THOSE people - except when my emotions take over, then logic takes a backseat. I'm also a solver of puzzles, problems. It's one of my greatest strengths and I believe also one of my greatest personal weaknesses right now. Thus, the snooping that's gotten me in trouble so much to date.
After R discussion this morning, I did not initiate contact with H today. He called on his way to work and I did not answer. I'm glad I didn't. He left me a voicemail telling me he was thinking about me and how much he loved me and that he wanted to say that after our R talk, but he didn't want me to think he was just feeling sorry for me. It would have been touching if I didn't feel so manipulated by his MLC self. Do I allow myself to believe it? Do his words really mean anything? He called a couple of other times, but only left one message about kid stuff. I replied by email and the kids called me tonight but I did not talk with H. I'm doing a lot of thinking right now about what I want. Glad to be away from home and able to just be here alone tonight.
One of the weird things about this state of existence is how to handle future plans. We have concert tickets for May 28th. We have a week at Disney reserved in July. I was scheduling our annual beach trip and have paused b/c not sure if that's wise. How do you handle stuff like that? H seems to get agitated discussing any type of plan, even if it's for tomorrow so I've just been not saying anything. Guess just handle it when it arrives. I may just go ahead and plan the beach trip and take the boys myself if we're apart then.
Grace,
Yes, I am on Facebook in a limited way (don't use it to journal and only have a photo of my boys). I understand there is a DB group, but I hesitate to get on there b/c I don't want anyone to know I'm part of it. Are you on FB?
The plans that you have to go places can be kept whether he goes or not. Like you said you and the boys can go to the beach, as far as the concert if he doesn't want to go, ask a friend.
Hell, we still take "family" trips and my H has been gone over a year. Don't do them often, but went away at Christmas and are going again this summer. If he decides not to come, we'll go anyway.
It's nice that he can still say he loves you. Whether or not you believe it, I'm of the mind he probably means it, at least in the moment it's said. Does that mean all will be healed? That remains to be seen. That he can acknowldge feelings for you, in my world that's a good thing. Just don't go counting your boobies before they're hatched.
Journaling
Looks like everything I post is about H, so now I'll journal positives about me....
This week I'm presenting several times at a big conference my company has once a year. I'm seeing people who I enjoy being around and it feels good b/c I'm good at what I do and get compliments about it. Also, several people have commented how great I look, have I lost weight, etc. I don't have many friends outside of work (moved a lot and too many years of putting kids first and I'm socially sort of shy) so being around co-workers I like is good for me.
Better try to get some shut-eye...long, busy day tomorrow.
Like you I don't want those outside this bb to know I'm part of the DB group. I am listed in the DB group under the name I use here Grace O'Malley.
I hope you got some sleep and things go well for you today.
Dear In Limbo,
Sorry I have not been around in several days. My computer has been in the shop AGAIN!! Anyway, have tried to catch up on your thread and it sounds as if your H is in a major, major MLC if he can tell you all that stuff and turn around and show you that affection and tell you he still loves you, etc. That is worse than what I did! I thought I was mixed up, but man, that is the pits.
I can tell you this much......whether he is in a PA with that girl or not.....he is certainly getting "something" out of the R or he would not pursue it. I think some of it may be that he started out feeling sorry for her and then as he showed her attention and gave her gifts, etc., she reacted in a way that made him feel important and a sense of well-being b/c he was helping this young girl, so it was feeding his emotions. It is like showing a child something amazing to them for the first time. You love the look in their eyes and their excitment, etc. It may have started out like that and then he developed these feelings he doesn't know how to deal with. I believe in his crazy mixed up mind that he still loves you! I really do. But, as a lot of other men that I have read about (seems that men do this more than women), he wants to still show you affection and express his love for you. I have not read where W's in MLC who is involved in an A does that very much, but men......yes, I have read of others doing it, so you are not the only one.
I agree with Jack the Bean. This could last for 3-5 years! Not to pull you down more, but to be candid......you need to decide if you can weather the storm. A storm it will be and you will never know what to expect next from this man. He won't know himself! It is horrible. Maybe people went through this when I was a kid and we just didn't hear as much about it, but I have never heard of so much of MLC like it is happenig now. I don't know what is going to happen to families. I it very tragic.
Which ever way you decide to go, it will take courage and a lot of spunk. We will be here and will try to help you stay strong.
Sandi
Good day professionally (yea). Weird day personally. These MLCers really keep you yo yo'ing. Or I guess that would be, they do as long as we let them. I'm certainly doing that. Gotta detach, gotta detach, gotta detach.
H got fitted for a tux today to wear to another dance party I'm not invited to on Saturday night. Hit me hard as the only other times he's worn a tux (other than being a groomsman) were when he was going to a special event with me (prom, wedding, etc.). I just don't see how going to a formal event without your wife and not allowing her to come can be anything "innocent." Who goes solo to something like that without some sort of agenda? He knows I don't want him to go and we discussed why. H called me this morning and said he wanted to try to put my mind at ease and that it wasn't the type of environment that I seem to think it is, he doesn't take anyone, doesn't meet anyone, etc. I just said "ok" and moved on to other stuff. I'd rather have no explanation than more lies.
Suddenly H had to work late tonight and it was up to me to find a solution for childcare even though I'm out of town. Of course I did it. Is that just enabling his irresponsibility or is it the best thing to do since it involves the kids? How do I push back on this type of dumping responsibility on me or should I not?
My head hurts. I thought I'd have figured out what I want by tonight, but no luck. At this very moment I'm in a ticked off, pissy mood and am standing more from stubbornness than anything else. I'll be darned if I'll make it so he can say "she kicked me out." Wrong motivations, I know. I'll work on it.
Will write more later. Hope you guys are doing ok.
Limbo
I knmw this is hard
I always felt standing was not a waste of time
not only for the samke of our children and M
but for my own individual growth
during this process, I gained more emotional growth than during any other point in my life
there is no way out of this even if you quit
and the way I see it now ( I didnt always see this)
is it doesnt really matter what happens in the end
the emotional growth and stability of the children even without H is most important
so give yourself tim,e
yes, Its all very unacceptable
and at some point maybe with the help of MC or DB couselor you can decide what to do about the intimacy issues you face
if you are violatating yourself by being with your H
it is something to look at
sometimes boundries are needed
peace
Peace,
Thank you. I can see how this is a bit like a metamorphasis. They say if a butterfly doesn't struggle out of the cacoon (if you cut the cacoon open), it will die. I can actually see how I will be better for going through this, regardless of the result. Not that I'm saying I think anyone should ever have to go through this.
H and I just had a R talk, initiated by him. I'm not sure how I'd score myself. I did try to validate and listened. He is re-writing history (now I've treated him like he was nothing for 20 years!) but I know that's script MLC stuff. I could not validate that and did tell him that I disagreed and that he was re-writing history. Is that poor DB or is it ok? I didn't challenge him or push on it any more, just stated my point and moved on. I did end up breaking down as usuall (bad), but at this point I'm not sure it matters. He is so dead set on my changes not being real and is finding every reason he can think of to not work on the M. Now he's saying his EA is no worse than me being dishonest about my eating habits (I have struggled with an binge/overeating disorder for many, many years) because they are both lies and one sin is no greater than any other. I guess this is typical when we make changes. It's easier to walk out on the b*#ch than someone who's making positive changes and treating you well.
I did tell him tonight that while I do not want him to go, do not want our M to be over (ok, old one over but want new one with H), but that if he feels this way then he needs to go. I didn't say it mean, as in "GET THE HECK OUT" but tried to say it in a loving way. It's not what I want and he knows that, but I don't think the current arrangement is healthy for me or the boys and it's not allowing H to be on his own and have time to experience that. So now I wait and see what he does.....
Limbo,
Validating doesn't mean that you agree with what is said. It just means you understand that the other person feels that way. Telling them that they're rewriting history doesn't usually help. It's what they are remembering or rationalizing at the moment.
You sound ok all things considered. How are you holding up?
Grace,
How I'm holding up depends on the moment. Got to have lunch today with one of my longest friends (we met when I was about 6!) and that was great. Didn't plan on sharing what was going on, but ended up doing so. Turns out she has been being pursued by a man at work and has the beginnings of an EA going on. She's married to a wonderful man and I think our conversation helped give her a wakeup call about that slippery slope. It also helped me feel a little more like me again, being with someone who's known me so long, since way before H and loves me no matter what.
I know telling him about rewriting history was wasted breath, but I couldn't hold it in. Discipline is not my strong suit. Of all things I could have not held in, that's probably the least devastating one. I could have lashed out about OW but I didn't.
H is at dance class, but will be home soon. I will not initiate any R talk and will do my best to DB if he does. I won't bring up him leaving again, but I think it's really just come to a head for him and the best thing may be for him to go out on his own and see what happens. It kills me, but now that he's moved to being angry (this is new) at me for changing now and never before, I don't know if we can continue this roller coaster of separation weekdays and together weekends. In time he'll see my changes are for real. Will it be enough? Will it be too late? Will I still be standing? Only God knows.
Limbo,
Lunch sounds like it was good for both of you. I was able to meet with a friend today too. Always a nice treat.
It wook my H over a year to move out post bomb. In some ways I think it's harder with them at home. Just keep on working the changes you'd like to see in yourself.
I hope you have a good evening.
Grace,
Would you mind telling me - did you ask him to leave or did he just finally decide to go?
I'm wondering if the odds of having the chance to create new M change with full separation versus in-home separation.
It's a tough evening as I'm at home while H is out. It's been a long work week and I'm just exhausted. Did have a fun night last night though. Went to a blues bar with some co-workers and it was a lot of fun. Haven't told H. Not hiding it, it just hasn't come up and I'm not sure it needs to.
I am working on several changes. They are for me, but I'd be lying if I said theyr'e not in hopes of attracting H as well. But I will continue them regardless of what happens with H. I'm continuing to lose weight (40 lbs now!), exercising, listening more, engaging friends more, taking advantage of opportunities to go have fun (like blues bar), not criticizing H, doing a better job keeping house tidied, reading and studying meaningful books (many self-help, some inspirational), setting goals and following up, etc......
Tomorrow night he'll be out as well at a formal black tie party and he's working tomorrow and Sunday. So, I need to get some GAL stuff going before I lose my mind. Tomorrow I'll take the boys to the Y. I'll work out and then let them swim. Tomorrow night we'll do a movie, bowling or something. I may also call a friend across town whose sons were their best friends before we moved. She's just had a baby and we need to go visit them. So that will take care of tomorrow and tomorrow night.
did you ask him to leave or did he just finally decide to go?
He left on his own. I think it's what had to happen regardless.
I'm wondering if the odds of having the chance to create new M change with full separation versus in-home separation.
For me, what I believe now, is that we wouldn't have any chance if he had stayed. Not b/c of him, but b/c of me. I was too stuck and tiptoeing around on those eggshells was exhasuting. I didn't realize how much so till he'd been go awhile. I would say it's taken me alot longer to detach (and still struggle on the rare occasion) b/c he comes here to visit girls once a week. No, they don't go stay with him.
Great job on the weight and exercising! All of it really. And yes, I know he's part of the motivation (and would have carded you on it), but don't let that take away from the acheivements. Just make sure they are changes
want. That he might like and appreciate them on some level can just float out there for now.
How are the boys holding up?
We still haven't told the boys. Obviously, they know something is going on. But we had committed early on to tell them together and haven't done that yet. S11 is my tenderhearted child and is extremely perceptive. He can tell when I've been crying and just walks up and hugs me and says "I love you Mom" then tries to tell me something funny or interesting to get my mind off whatever it is that made me cry. I'm trying not to cry in front of them, but sometimes it still happens. I'm most worried about S11 b/c he already holds a lot of resentment toward his dad and I can see that growing and the potential for him to think he needs to protect me or be on my side. I am trying to build his dad up to him whenever I get a chance, but he is very bright and can see his dad's actions for what they are.
I haven't read up on the stages of MLC. Can someone explain if something triggers each stage or if they are all just stages MLCers swing in and out of or what?
If anyone is reading tonight, I need some advice. Tonight H went to a formal party w/o me. When I got home from H7's ballgame, he was still here - which I did not expect and was unprepared for. Seeing him in a tux was very difficult b/c the last time I saw him in one was our wedding day 15 years ago. It was tense. Then I made what I think is a blunder. I noticed 3 beer bottles in the garbage can. Now, less than a month ago H got a DUI and hasn't been drinking since. Last night he had 2 beers and drove home. So when I saw the beer bottles, I said to him "did you drink 3 beers?" and asked him to please call me tonight if he didn't need to drive home. He got agitated and said he wasn't going to drink there and gave me a look. I have been doing so well not having the nagging/controlling behavior that he dislikes but I have a hard time not saying something when it's related to something as serious as DUI. I don't think I should apologize for what I said. In the future, should I just keep my mouth shut? My concern is that he's starting down that slippery slope of drinking again and it's going to go from 2 beers to 3 beers to 12+ and then driving. I know I can't make his decisions for him and a 180 would be to not say anything. But is that being an enabler?
Hey sweetie, yes I am reading tonight. I tell ya, you have a lot more patient than I could have with that man of yours! In the first place, if a formal event is not the environment that "you think it is" then why doesn't he allow you to be there to see for yourself and set your mind at ease once and for all? I don't believe him for a minute! Any man that is taking dance lessons and is on the up and up, would want to "show off" for his wife to see what he has accomplished......right? I just could not put up with it......but that is me, not you. You have to decide how much you can endure. It is all too fishy!
About the drinking. I would feel just as you do about it. However, here's the thing......you cannot be his mother! That is how men look at us when we start talking to them like you were talking to your H. In fact, you even sounded like his mother to me! So, it will make him worse, actually, for you to bring it up. He is guilty and he resents you pointing out his faults and especially when he got a DUI. He is a grown man who knows when he is screwing up! If he is stupid enough to do it, what can you do? Nagging him or acting hurt or threatening him will do no good whatsoever. I know......it is very hard to keep our mouths shut. You asked if keeping your mouth shut about his drinking would be an enabler? NO! It is treating him like he is responsible for his own stupid actions.
I suspect something with the OW happened that made him decide to drink, but maybe he needs no "excuse". Maybe he was celebrating his formal evening! Who knows? At any rate, it is wrong but you can't change it. You just have to decide if you will live in it or not.
Sandi
Hi IL,
This is purely my opinion-based on common sense and the little I know about alcohol abuse... Your H knows how you feel bout him drinking. He probably feels the same somewhere down deep...its gotten him in trouble with the law-hard to ignore..
I don't think you should apologize for what has already been said. I do think that not saying anything in the future might be a good thing to try-anything to get away from what he'll perceive as nagging or mothering is good. I absolutely do NOT think that makes you an enabler. To me an enabler is someone who covers up and makes excuses for the person with an abuse problem. Your H is a grown man. He knows he has a problem that he needs to keep control over, doesn't he? If not a DUI should be his first clue...Keep quiet, keep the kids out of his car when there's a question of him drinking/driving. He may have to learn some tough lessons, but it may be the only he will get the message. Hang in there!
For me, things that trigger happy memories(his tux/your wedding) now seem to cause sad feelings..seeing happy couples at the mall, seeing things I don't have anymore(and in my pity parties think I won't ever have again)..just make me sad..I understand how you might have felt. I think it gets better in time..I hope so.
You know Limbo, maybe I should not say this and it may be going too far, but since it is just you and I here talking......
I am going to be very blunt, okay? I think he has you right where he wants you! He is being unfaithful to you. He is going out and having fun without you. He comes home and there you are waiting for him and he knows he can work his magic on you and you cave. I think you need to get his attention! Stop being the meek little woman who stays at home "worrying" about what he is up to.
Maybe he needs to see you in a red sparkling dress with a split up to there. When he asks where you are going, then you tell him that it's not what he thinks. Be just as vague and return some of those answers he has been giving you.
Oh I am not suggesting that you go out looking for men. But I am saying that you are giving me a certain "picture" about you and I don't think that is working for ya. The man has it made! He is cake eating every day and nothing has changed and it is not going to until you get his attention.
Now I know we say to GAL for yourself and to change for yourself, etc. But if you want this man then you need to do something different. Do the same thing and expecting something different is insanity. That is what I was told! You think you are doing 180's but they are not giving a loud enough message. You don't seem to know what you want and I suppose that is why you have the name "in limbo" and I am not beating you up about that, but I am saying that you need to decide what it is you want and set those goals and go after it. Stop sitting on your tale and accepting what crumbs he throws at you. Those crumbs are dirty and you deserve better.
Just my thoughts.
Sandi
Oh, hi kjensen.......glad you joined in.
Sandi and KJ,
Thanks for your thoughts. I completely agree about the alcohol...knew it as it was coming out of my mouth. I do try to mother too much, always have. I'm working on it and will keep doing so.
Sandi said the drinking may have had something to do with OW. I think you're right. Something happened yesterday between when I spoke with him at 4:15 (he was on his way to S7s ballgame) and 5:00 (was very angry and now no time to come to S7s ballgame). That's when he went home and drank. Made me wonder if she was supposed to go and cancelled on him. I'll never know, but something certainly happened.
You're right about the cake eating and it makes me crazy. I do need to decide what I want (I'm getting closer, things are getting clearer) and I think your ideas for getting his attention are good. I'm not sure how they'll work out as he'll just write them off to "faking it" like he has every other change he's made. I did go out this past week, but was out of town so H didn't even know about it. I have plans to go out Thursday night, but he won't be home. I'll have to think about what I could do that would be authentic (not just doing for him to see) and visible to him and get his attention.
Sandi,
One other thought. I agree completely with you that what he's doing is unacceptable. So much of this MLCer stuff it unacceptable. Every day it makes me wonder why I'm standing. But isn't that the problem with MLCers? What I'm trying to weed through is how much of this is due to MLC and how much of it is his true character that will still be there post-MLC. Is this person really someone that I should fight to be with? What have I seen in his character pre-MLC and maybe ignored b/c I loved him so? So the question is how much can I take now, but also what have I taken in the past that I shouldn't have and would I really want that for the future? It's odd b/c three years ago I was almost WAW and now he's MLC. So, maybe there have been deep problems all along that indicate we're wrong for each other? Or maybe we're meant to be together, but we've just not yet learned to deal with the problems?
Sandi,
Ok, I lied. ONE MORE THING (promise last one). Since you were on the other side of having an EA, I'd like to get your take on something. Friday H told me he holds a lot of resentment toward me for "alienating" him from OW. Post-bomb and pre-DB I had asked him not to have any contact with her. Now, as of a week ago I know they were still talking/texting/meeting for lunch, so I'm thinking something happened this week. At any rate, I've read that if spouse has to give up OP they go through withdrawal, etc. But how do I handle H having resentment toward me for wanting him to cease contact with OW? At the time, I did question how I've alientated him since he has had contact with her since (didn't disclose that I know how much how recently), but I did not defend my position. I see this as just another sign of how uncommitted he is to me and working on our R. I've never known H to forgive anyone when he feels they've broken his trust or wronged him. It's sad b/c when you can't forgive it just festers inside you and I think that's part of what's led him to MLC. Now he feels I've done both. Anyway, did you ever got through resenting your H for discovering your EA? Is there anything I should do or just listen if/when he brings it up again?
Now man that takes the cake doesn't it? He resents he wife from keeping him from his OW! Well, that is the mind of a WAS, however, not all of them are so brazen as to actually word it to their S.
You will always be seen as the bad guy as long as he is in MlC, IMHO. There are very few that come around right away to see what a jewel they have in their spouse b/c most of them can't stand who they are M too! Some women have stood by their M for years and would finally have their H's to return home and then have to wait another year before hearing that he loved her. I don't know that I could do it! However, I am probably constructed out of a different make-up than those who can endure it. It takes all kinds of women and I don't think I would do it, but who knows until you are in the stitch? I think you need to talk to more people that have been in the MLC w's shoes b/c I am afraid I will tell you the wrong thing. If you can find imLin's thread on the MLC forum, she is very good help. Also, AmyC is somewhere on one of these forums and she would help. Those were my two that helped me so much. Both H's suffered years of MLC. One's H came back, and one didn't--unless it has been recently.
I'm afraid I would tell you to forget this man and move on with your life until he comes to his sense, b/c you would be happier than living in the same house and seeing on a daily bases him draining you bit by bit of your life. The roller coaster ride you would be on......I don't know if it is worth it.....only you can determine that. I do believe if his A is exposed and the excitment and secrecy is worn off that it won't be near as much fun for them. If you remove yourself from the picture (and I don't mean divorce, I just mean remove yourself from his presence or even the house if necessary) then I think it will blow over. He may or may not turn to another woman, but he could do that if you stayed with him. Go talk to some people in MLC and get some advice.
Sandi
Sandi,
Thanks for your feedback. I've been reading a lot of the posts in the MLC forum and I've come to the same conclusion you've spoken. I will go check out the folks you recommend and ask around for advice. But right now I don't think I can continue this facade. I am not a person with great self-esteem anyway and living in this environment where I'm not good enough to be his wife but good enough to be his maid, cook, errand runner, sex provider, etc. while he lies, pursues someone else and keeps me out of most all parts of his life is draining me and I feel quite used. We have MC session Thursday and I think it's time to get real and make the separation more formal. I'm not saying D, but a full separation. If he files for D, so be it. I am not prepared to do that at this time, but don't think it's healthy to continue with the current arrangement either.
In
there are other approaches than DB
read tough love by james dobson..this may be the spproach you need
IN my opinion DB is for us..there is absolutely no guarantee that it will work to restore a M
it may and in many cases may not
You have to put yourself first and sometimes this may be a clearer message to get it all out in open than sugar coat it for our H
peace
Peace,
My C mentioned that same book. I'll get it and read it as well. Maybe approaching things that way would be a 180 that would help me break out of the cycle of accommodating him and acquiescing just to keep the peach. I don't thing there are any guarantees that any approach will restore a M. I get so angry with myself because I'm such a strong person in so many areas of my life, but when it comes to H, I allow him to manipulate me and just turn to a puddle. I'll never survive that way - gotta draw on my strength and detach - detach - detach.
Went to the Y and worked out last night. Tonight S7 has baseball game. If they win this one, they play in the championship game tomorrow night. I so hope they win. It would be wonderful for S7.
Been spending a lot of time today thinking about things, about what it is that I really want. I think what I want short term is to get rid of the fear. I'm tired of being afraid of what H will do or think or how he'll behave. It has occurred to me that while I'm a strong person, I have been manipulated by him so long that I don't think I'm strong enough to break free as long as he keeps waltzing back into the house, saying he cares/loves me, etc. Each time that happens I forget his current MLC illness and get a glimpse of the man I love and any glimmer of detachment I had goes out the window.
The other thing I've come to realize (that others tried to tell me but I guess I wasn't ready to process) is that OW really doesn't matter so much. With the current state he's in, he has whole pieces of his life that I'm not "allowed" to be part of. As long as that's true, our M cannot be restored. So even if there were no OW, no EA, there would still be that. Oh, and I'm sure there would be/will be some other OW if this one goes away. So, the conclusion I've drawn is this....I have still be trying to control H and force him/guilt him into staying. I do not want a M based on control. I want a M based on love, devotion and commitment. We can't have that M right now with H in his current situation. So, I have to let him go. Since I'm not strong enough to let him go with him still here, I will have to ask him to move out. I'd love to get feedback from some vet DB posters who've dealt with MLC. Is it better to go ahead and ask them to leave? If so, how do you do it and still be committed to standing? How do you DB as you do that? Ok to bring up R, OW, etc. during that discussion? Do you tell H it's not what you want but what is best with things the way they are?
I'd appreciate any thoughts you have....
If you decide you need him to leave, you can do that while making it clear that you want the M to work. It comes down to self-respect. As in, "I love you and I want this M to work, but your involvement with someone else is not acceptable. As long as that's your choice, I need you to leave."
In some ways it's harder on you with them in the home(IMO). Once they leave, well, that may be it. You stil have to respect yourself. My H left on his own and as far as I know there was no EA/PA while he was there. I will tell you it was easier in some ways after he was gone (except the day he comes to visit, long story) and I felt like I could breathe a little easier.
Whatever you choose think (and I mean really think) don't react.
HUGS
I am a huge fan of Dr. James Dobson. I have his book on Tough Love and I believe it 100%. He tells it like it is and if I were the LBS, I would certainly go his route.......which is basically dropping the rope and moving forward, which is not contrary to what Michelle teaches. It is just that his book is about that one direction. I think it would do you much good to read it.
Sandi
Didn't get to the bookstore today, but will be there tomorrow to get the book.
I'm giving this a lot of thought and plan to wait until after MC on Thursday when H said he had things he wanted to discuss with MC to help us through. I like the way Grace words it. It's like kicking him out "gracefully."
And it is reasonable and makes it clear as to motive and what my stand is.
Went to H7's ballgame tonight and we had an impromptu party afterwards at the coach's house. I had a great time and found I wasn't even thinking about H and what he was or was not doing. That is huge for me. I had one moment of self pity thinking about how all the other dads were there, but it was momentary and then I moved on. Neither S ever asked where their dad was. Sad, so sad what he's throwing away. But they know I'm always here and that's more than a lot of kids have.
No crying for 2 days - yea!
Lost more weight - yea!
Working out 3-4 times/week - yea!
Still need to find a GAL hobby and expand friend network....
Dear In Limbo,
I am so proud of your personal success! Losing weight and working out takes a lot of self discipline. It is hard to do when one is happy and everything is grand......but to do that when everything is not grand is very difficult. Good for you!
You are gradually doing better. The longer you can go without crying, the better. When you feel yourself getting to that place where you are wanting to cry.....or the tears start before you know it.....have something that you can immediately get involved doing and use that same "discipline" you have to wort off the tears.
I hope you had a small insight of what we mean by GAL. You were able to go for a short period without thinking of your stitch and that was like recess for your body and brain! People do not think it is possible when they first come on board and we start talking about GAL, and are not even interested in it. But.....again I think you have to make yourself start doing it....not b/c you feel like it or have a desire to do it. Of course you are not going to want to GAL b/c your S was your life. That's all one can think about. So, you have shown that you do have strength and discipline. I am proud of you and I believe you are a suvivor and even though your H does not seem to see what he is losing......you must step up and do what is best for you and your children.
Continue with your good work. I hope you have some more things planned in the way of GAL.......and something just for you that does not include your children. You really need something to uplift your spirits and that will make you feel good about yourself. I don't know why we women feel that we are being selfish when we allow something for "us" b/c in the long run, it is good for our families also. When Mama's happy....everybody's happy!
Sandi
Limbo,
Little victories. Your success is great! You should take pride in all that you are doing.
For me expanding the friends network can be tough with kids. I manage to get out and do alot more than I thought though. With the decipline you've shown, I have no doubt you'll be able to do more alot quicker than I was. That's a really good thing.
How are you doing today?
Doing really well today. I feel I'm moving into a different stage. The pain is still there, but I'm gaining a perspective I haven't had before. It's difficult to explain. I'm still struggling with detaching, but don't feel as hopeless. I hope this change continues.
I'm taking the boys to visit their grandparents next week and will leave them there. I'm anxious to get to visit a bit with my parents and also to visit with my grandparents who are both not doing so well. So next week I'll have all week to GAL and spend just on me. H and I are going to a concert next Thursday night, but other than that I'll have every night free. H has been wanting to meet up at the Y every free night, so maybe one night he'll ask and I'll get to be unavailable and mysterious.
Thanks for hanging in with me guys. I know I'm wordy and needy and seem to get stuck, but I really am trying to learn from everyone here and move forward.
It's good to hear that you're feeling stronger. It may come and go (still does with me to some extent) just cut yourself some slack.
I tend to rattle around a bit if my D's aren't with me. I suspect it's b/c it hasn't happend but a couple of times. I hope you have some fun though. Got any solid plans or even ideas?
All this takes time. We are all wordy and needy and stuck at times. That's why this BB is so valuable.
HUGS
The last week without the boys was shortly after bomb and I thought I was going to lose my mind. They are what keeps me busy. I don't have solid plans, but do plan to try some new classes at the Y, do some shopping for clothes that fit (woo-hoo), call some friends I've played phone tag with for a while, invite a neighbor out to lunch and maybe even go see a chick flick. Wish I had a girls night out planned. But with it being the first week of summer, a lot of people have other plans.
Question - one of H's complaints was that I never met him enough for lunch (he even mentioned it again last night talking about the past). Should I offer next week to meet him for lunch? Or would that be pursuing too much?
I get so tired of the negative comments about the past from H. Any advice on how to steer that toward the here and now? I validate and try to talk more about right now, but it seems like he wants to bring up the past so he has something to be ticked off about, like it helps him justify the things he's doing/feeling. Any advice other than validating for how to get them less focused on past and more focused on now?
He may be using the past to justify what he's doing. I don't know. Could you validate what he's saying and then let it go? I ask this b/c bringing him into the here and now sounds like this to me. "Limbo, you don't/didn't do X" and your response "You're right I didn't. I'm sorry I seemed so uninterested, but now I..."
To me that's telling him what's changed, not showing him. That's just what it sounds like in my head, the reality may be very different.
As to lunch, well, I don't know. You could try once and see what happens. If you get resistance, back off.