Hi, I'm new to this and could use some wisdom and advice from others. My husband of 15 years(dated 5 years before marrying) told me over Chistmas that he thought he was falling in love another woman and wasn't sure he ever loved me, but wasn't in love with me now. He had been seeing her for a few months and gave me various storied as to how they met(final one was while working out at the rec center). He said she refused to see him because he was married(she's divorced w/2 younger kids).
He moved out to an apartment at the beginning of 1/09. We have two daughters(11 and 13). He has his own business and works out of our house and cannot financially support himself at this time on is own.
I snooped through a few records and found out that the OW bought him an $800 table and chairs for his new apartment because "he deserved something for getting on with his life"- he said. After that I found out that he had purchased tickets for them to go away. When I confronted him after I found out about the tickets he admitted that he was "dating" the OW. The next day he had a nervous breakdown and the day after that broke up with the OW via email(he showed me)-after telling me that he had indeed consummated their relationship once about a week prior). He stayed over a bit more after that. Whenever we had sex he said it made him feel empty and disconnected afterwards. At first he refused conseling but after the nervous breakdown he started seeing a therapist on his own(refuses to go with me for marital counseling) and was diagnosed with major depression and started on meds. That was 3 weeks ago.
We've practiced active listening/validating-although we are not perfect at it. Last Tuesday he sent me an email, saying he had felt for awhile that he wanted out but didn't know how to tell me or the kids. Our life just wasn't working for him...A few days later, I started distancing more and in fact suggested we get separating banks accounts-which freaked him out a bit. Had my first DB telephone counseling session Friday and was all set to remain upbeat, distant..do some tests. But Saturday he was AWOL(very unlike him)-unreachable( i called once and texted once), This morning I drove by the OW's house and his car was there (5:30am). He finally called me at 11:15am and I mentionned(in a pretty Non-upset way) that I knew he'd spent the night with the OW. I stayed upbeat, said I new he wanted a divorce and we could separate accounts Monday and start figuring out details..I did ask him why after we had done so much talking about being honest with each other-he still couldn't be-I was very neutral in talking, not upset, not yelling-just matter-of-fact. No answer about the honesty-He said he had alot to think about...No contact since(which I expected). But, he works out of the house and will be here in the AM and I'm home with the kids all week for Spring Break Do I act as a friend, stay upbeat and neutral and avoid R talk, or do I disappear(harder for me to do)-be unavailable? All of these choices he's made are very uncharacteristic for him. He misses his daughters terribly, but hasn't made huge efforts to see them often-they don't like going to his place.
KJ,
What advice did the DB counselor have for you?
Does the medication seem to be helping him? Major Depression is a significant diagnosis. I'm glad he's getting help for it.
I'm glad you found this forum. You will get plenty of support, and will learn a great deal from reading others posts and the responses of those who've been thru similar situations.
How are you doing coping with this ordeal?
CL
The DB counselor went over my goals and how I would know when things were working. We came up with some tests. Certainly avoiding any talk of the R or the OW seems to get my H closer/warmer. Conflict keeps him distant. In the past I was the pursuer and he was the distancer- I stopped pursuing a few weeks ago.
As far as the depression, he seems less emotional(before all of this it was a rarity to see him cry or get choked up)-but he still gets choked up over the odd comment about being friends always. He still has an easy trigger for anger though. So I don't think the antidepressant is doing its full thing(I'm a pharmacist)quite yet.
Looking back-he started having insomnia when the affair started and that has continued throughout this ordeal. Although last night, the night he stayed with the OW he said he'd slept better than he had in months..
I have only about two friends that I talk to in detail, and have seen a therapist periodically-next appt 3/31...None of my friends are divorced although I am from divorced parents(at age 13 dad moved out and they had a bitter divorce 5 years later...) I feel like a failure, allowing this to happen to my kids. So I'm pretty emotional and feeling completely baffled by all that's happened-like its someone else's life. I started working out when it began and don't eat much(don't feel like it) so I've dropped 17 lbs in 3 months. I'm trying to figure out how I can fill the void in my life, and get past the broken dreams.
K
Sorry you find yourself here
there are no real answers except to try to take care of yourself and your kids
IF your H is in counseling that may be helpful, but like most of us here it is a long haul
If it is MLC, there is no easy way thru it
most of our H have A
most of them run through a lot if not all of the money
protect yourself fianacially espescially since the business is half yours
My xh almost bankrupted our business right before our D
by the grace of God, I was able to get my hands on it to save it
our H, most of them become messes
very distant, unemotional liers bad fathers
I wouldnt expect to much from him now
as far as what to do, you can try either way
I was upbeat non confrontitive with mine for a while right after bomb
that set us up for a friendship which we did have and helped him maintain R with kids
in that time he was loving with oW and lieing about it
Now I am dim and while it helps me to a degree, H is a mess
so you will have to make your own choice and moniter it
this is my opinion only
if its MLC, nothing you do will make them turn around
it is best to practice no pressure be kind and affirming that will keep the doors open
good luck
peace
Thank you both for the kind words and support. I worry that since I'm so full of emotion and have been holding it in all day to have fun with the girls, that I'll not have the self-control I should tomorrow. It makes me sad that my H hasn't contacted the girls at all yesterday or today and when this all began he promised he would. I think, in a way, most of my anger is about how this affects the kids.
KJ,
It is an emotional time. I'm glad to hear you have an appointment with an IC. I would see them at least every other week. You're going to need the support, and to take a pause from your life for self-reflection. Friends are helpful, but they will be biased towards you, and not think in terms of the M.
Your H has a lot of work to do. He's in pain and is looking for quick comfort.
Be careful with the self-judgment. Dont' use words like failure to describe yourself. Yes, you made mistakes in your M, but you're allowed to be imperfect. The A is your H's choice and failure to face his problems.
Focus on self-care at this time in addition to your DB efforts. Prepare yourself for a journey. Keep posting daily on this forum. Posting is a form of journaling and self-expression, and you will feel a sense of community, as you see you're not alone in your struggles.
CL
Spoke to husband this morning. He had just talked to the OW last Thursday (she knocked on his door)and restarted the affair 3/21. We had the best day between us communication-wise last Thursday so I was starting to get hopeful, especially after my DB phone counseling 3/20! I feel like I started heaing only to be hurt worse. My husband says he's numb. He's made no indication of whether he's continuing the affair or not. I asked him how he felt when he was with the OW and he said "good, happy". So I guess he needs to feel good and happy when he's with me. It's harder now since I hurt more now.
KJ,
I'm glad to hear about the connection between you and H recently. What did he say that created hope for you?
Does he know how you feel about the OW, and that you would like to work on solving your problems without her in the picture?
Your H's numbness possibly means that he's not in touch with his feelings.
CL
Hi CL,
I think what created hope last Thursday was that were actually comfortable around each other, there wasn't tenseness. In the past, there'll be uncomfortable silences and my H will say we have nothing to talk about-nothing in common and take that as a sign we should end our relationship. So Thursday, was "like normal"-we laughed and just chatted. He gave me a hug goodbye-anytime he initiates physical contact I guess I feel hopeful.
My H knows how hurt I am about the OW. I told him how I felt about Thursday and how his restarting the A that night hurt. He said "I guess I blew it"...but nothing more. He knows I want to go to MC together(he refuses. He doesn't see this as a choice between the OW and me-he says its not a competition. But I said that you can't have me AND the OW-so you do have to make a choice...so thats where we are...really no indication of what he thinks about us or the OW/A. I think I'll try to distance more now(which is hard since he works at a office in our home and I see him every weekday)-just because I have a lot of hurt and I keep pissing him off with comments about us-he blew up at me twice today.
K
It is so very hard,this situation
I dont know what your H will do if he has to choose between ow and M
for the most part , they choose ow
the attraction/pull is very strong
in my case the DB, also built hope in me b/c H and I got along well while I db...now I am dim and will be changing that very soon
dimness creates huge walls between us
I see the purpose in it and it has worked for some, I wish the map were clearer
peace
My H and were talking and texting yesterday. His biggest fear right now is that he'll end up alone (without me or the OW) and poor. He really thinks this will happen. He feels like a divorce between is us mapped out, inevitable. So despite my repeatedly telling him, that I can see a more positive, healthier future relationship/marriage to him- he cannot see that.
I wrote a letter asking him to try imagining a future for us, starting fresh, just to see if he could perhaps get past all of the negative filters he's looking through right now. In the letter I shared that if he chose the OW I couldn't see being friends with him, that I felt he would have two families and he and I would lead separate lives that had to be coordinated for the kids. I shared all the things I'd worked on on my own that would definitely create a different type of funtioning between us. Shared my happier/healthier vision of our future marriage after some hard work togetherfirst (and conuing work going forward). I suggested he work with his therapist to figure out his needs/wants, goals for his future before he made a major decision. Lastly I said I am his friend, I supported him and cared for him.. Now, do I give him this letter, or should I just go forward acting "as if" I am already that happy friend/spouse?
KJ,
Do you see your H on a fast track to D? Is he in a hurry to make a decision?
Your letter is asking him to think about his needs and desire, and to discuss them in therapy. This seems like a reasonable request to me.
The letter also has some elements of an ultimatum in it. If he continues to see the OW, what are saying you're going to do?
My advice would be to frame the letter in terms of what you are trying to influence right now. What small steps are you wanting your H to make at this time? Otherwise, it becomes an ultimatum letter, telling him to cease and desist with the OW or else you will do X. What approach do you want to take? What kind of letter do you want it to be, ultimatum or request?
CL
Good points! I can't tell about how fast my H wants a divorce-we've talked about separating bank accounts(easiest step to do) but he hasn't pushed for it-so we are still joint. I think he feels pressure to make a decision for himself, since his apartment lease is up at the end of June. So by the end of May I think is when he hopes to make a decision. I have a hard time dealing with this A. I don't think I need to make an ultimatum about that though-in my letter it was more that 'if you see us being friends while you off with the OW, I don't think I can do that'. Remaining friends through all of this has been important to both of us, but difficult given the circumstances.
I guess I just want my H t want to continue the efforts he started to see if we "work" or not. His therapist gave us homework to go on a hike together every week without talking about the R. I was also to "check in" with him every day to see how he was doing and rebuild the trust between us. These things all have gone by the wayside.
K
Im not sure about the letter
great that H is in therapy..if anything might help these cocnfused mlcers it is that
If you have another session with DB coach ask her what she thinks
Your H is open with you ..about his thoughts and the A that is good
I like your idea of telling H you and he cant be freinds during his A-if he chooses her
MY XH was not honest with me about his affair..I just found out about it in december..he lied to me about his living arrangements probably to maintain the nice friendship we had
If your H decides to seperate bank accounts, I would also do something to protect your house and any other assets you have together..
and yourself from any credit card debt
My H has piled up unbelievable debt since leaving..
the ow they pick usually do not moniter any spending like we would and they encourage H to spend everything
Unfortunately if he is in MLC, there is little rationality for their choices
MY XH Gave up everyhing he had in these 2 years and he literally walks away a D man with nothing except OW
and the riht to visit his kids every other weekend
in ones logical mind, one would think is he crazy?
especially when the Wife has done everything possible to let her MLCer know the M will be better, the DB, validating them
for many of these H, it just doesnt work
at least not immediately although some have come back many of them have to Go to expore the freedom and their youth
many of them pick younger OW
How old is your H?
You are doing everything right
for now, create the friendship and let your H see what he has in you
and take care of your self
peace
I guess I just want my H t want to continue the efforts he started to see if we "work" or not. His therapist gave us homework to go on a hike together every week without talking about the R. I was also to "check in" with him every day to see how he was doing and rebuild the trust between us. These things all have gone by the wayside.
KJ,
I didn't realize you two were separated. How long has this been the case?
What effort has your H been making towards reconciliation during this time?
How do you feel about the way your H is treating you at this time?
CL
Peace I totally believe they are exploring their youth.
When my xh left me he said that he had been married 20 years and wanted to be single again and "PLAY". And that he did, in 6 months he has had a few women, all in their 20's....he will be 41. He has lost around 50lbs and very tanned! He works out daily.
In hight school and college he was very slim, and I feel like he is trying to get his youth back. When he first left, I dont know about now, he went clubing and dancing alot. I know he still drinks, which he NEVER DID before, except on New Years or something. He is living with a 26 year old right now and I dont know how much going out they do but he did tell me once "they were officially boyfriend/girlfriend. Instead of talking to me like the adult he is and saying we are a couple. He says the bf/gf thing. lol I find it amusing and very teenageish.
Out of anger the last time we spoke, he said they would be married by the end of the year. I said to him "Good for You".
I dont know who is worse, my teenager or him.
I never knew MLC existed, I always thought it to be JUST an excuse, but its REAL thats for sure.
CL,
My husband told me he wanted to move out around Christmastime. On 12/28/09 he told me he thought he was in love with someone else-but nothing had happened(just an EA-but he doesn't believe those are A). On 1/3/09 he moved into an apartment 10 minutes away. He still works out his home office-so nights and weekends are his. My H said he didn't start dating the OW until a few weeks after he moved out. She bought him furniture for his apartment within the first week. On 2/8/09 he bought tickets for them to go to San Diego on 2/20/09. On 2/14/09 I confronted him(I found out about the tickets thru snooping) and on 2/15/09 he had a nervous breakdown and started therapy the next week. He broke upwith the OW on 2/16/09 via email and told me he had selpt with the OW once about a week prior. She emailed him a week later with a story about sitting with a dying friend who wished her all the best and "to know that someone loves you"-in her email she passed this dying wish on to him. He didn't seem to get that she was telling him she loved him, but I did. He emailed her back with condolences and wishing her the best(I didn't see that email. So supposedly the A was over 2/16. She knocked on his apartment door 3/19/09 and they just talked(per H). He slept over at her house 3/21/09-I don't know about 3/20... During the time when the A was over, my H and I were doing our "homework" and spending time together. Things were up and down and I was learning what triggered his anger(any R talk, any mention of the A or OW). He slept over and we had sex several times since we separated until probably the end of February. He says he feels disconnected after sex with me and yesterday he said that was how he felt for 10 years (I think this is definitely rewriting history-b/c he always complained of lack of frequency and not the quality/conneciton).
I went to one therapy session wit his therapist, but he insists it wasn't marital therapy, just therapy to learn how to talk to each other(active listening).
I feel that my H treats me respectfully, but distantly right now. We actually were painting my daughter's bedroom today and it was comfortable and fun at times. I was acting upbeat and made no mention of the R or A even though I really want to know if he's planning to continue with the A now that I know...I do feel threatened by the OW-she called my H last night(he told me) and offered to submit his resume to someone she knows...
My H is 44 and I'm 43. We known each other 21 years and have been married 15.
The OW is 46, "too thin", very active, former body builder with a young sone and daughter(I think ages 8 and 10). She is a financial professional(like him but a different field). She has her kids every other week-so the weekends I know they've been together were her weeks "off". I do know her name(I asked him to tell me and even though he didn't want to at first, he did)...
I have a hard time understanding how a divorced woman with children could pursue a married/spearated man with children.
I have a hard time understanding how a divorced woman with children could pursue a married/spearated man with children.
Depends why she got divorced. Just because we can empathize with someone doesn't mean they are the good guy.
Enough LBS Guys here to prove that point.
I was acting upbeat and made no mention of the R or A even though I really want to know...
GOOD FOR YOU KJEN!!
Absolutely good for you. A quick learner and study. I hope you can keep it up. You had a great day and didn't f it up by NEEDING your questions answered. Good for you.
Thanks! Does wanting the questions answered ever go away? My mind is constantly focused on the resumption of the A and whether it will continue now that I know. I guess it is a positive that my H mentionned the OW had called him last night(about his resume). I can't help but see her as the enemy, even though I know my husband is responsible for his actions. I feel from the few things I know that she is a bit manipulative or at the very least has her own agenda about him. If he finds a job outside the house(he owns his own business and has an office in our home) then he won't see me very much at all. Do you think I am reading too much into this or is she just being supportive and helpful(like he thinks)?
Thanks! Does wanting the questions answered ever go away? My mind is constantly focused on the resumption of the A and whether it will continue now that I know. I guess it is a positive that my H mentionned the OW had called him last night(about his resume). I can't help but see her as the enemy, even though I know my husband is responsible for his actions. I feel from the few things I know that she is a bit manipulative or at the very least has her own agenda about him. If he finds a job outside the house(he owns his own business and has an office in our home) then he won't see me very much at all. Do you think I am reading too much into this or is she just being supportive and helpful(like he thinks)?
I do not Think OW is just being sipportive and helpful
she has an agenda
but your focus has to stay on you not her
being upbeat and pleasant so your H can see who you are and you are the best choice
although your H is distant, it seems he is really unsure, so use this time to be the wife he wants
hopefully he may with the help of Therapy decide to work it out
with the OW out in the open and in therapy maybe it is possible
Also does the hterapist know H had A? If H cn make choice to get rid of OW, the M has the best chance..Maybe the therapist can work this
My H went to therapy with me after bomb, but he refused to admit A
so therapist ans I were botyh baffled why he didnt want to work on M
Most of these guys leave the M to pursue an A
if the A was to be eliminated somehow, the M would possibly stand a chance
peace
Good points peacetoday!
I believe he told his therapist about the A, but he hasn't seen her since the "rekindling" last week. I did go to one therapy session with him and his therapist and I remember we talked about trust issues between us so I do think she knows. He did get rid of the OW and then things seemed to eventually improve a bit(he was also dealing with nervous breakdown/major depression diagnosis). I thinks he does feel stupid getting re-involved with the OW but I really don't know for sure since we aren't talking about it. He has said in the past that there was such a strong attraction between them-his heart raced when he was with her( I think it was anxiety and guilt myself)...
Do you think its possible for a man going through a MLC to "get past" his negative feelings he has for his wife and their marriage? Would that only happen at the end of the MLC?
Do you think its possible for a man going through a MLC to "get past" his negative feelings he has for his wife and their marriage? Would that only happen at the end of the MLC?
KJ,
I think the question, is it possible for your H to connect to his own feelings instead of focusing his feelings onto you? The potential for change issue is relevant for all of our situations.
For the WAS having an EA/PA, they must be able to connect with their feelings and look at why they are unhappy in life. Does your H have this capacity, or is it too soon to tell?
CL
CL is right
I believe the WAS needs to become aware that his negative feeling toward his wife is really more about his dissatisfaction with his life and self
he may also have childhood issues unresolved , so the MLcer projects all the begativity on spouse finds OW and believes he can just start over leaving all their unresolved childhood issues behind
but it does not happen
So if the MLcer has a good therapist who understands MLC
and the WAs IS OPEN TO WORK THRU THE CRISES I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE
MOST mLCERS are not ready willing to work thru anything
instead they choose to run b/c they want to be Happy
they dont want to trudge thru months and years of therapy and inner reflection
the sad thing is that at the middle/end of the crises they will only be left to look at these same issues only now they have lost their wifes, kids, homes, money, ect
it must be devastating for them
peace
CL and peacetoday,
I think you are right about transferrence of negative feelings onto me/marriage. I think my H has wanted to avoid coundeling and perhaps especially MC becasue he said he doesn't want to look in the past-its too painful. He won't agree that sometimes you have to go through pain/deal with the past to come out better in the present and future. My H does accept that he has made some stupid decisions these last few months and I think there are times when he has clarity and doesn't understand how he got to where he is right now. He has alot of shame and self-blame, but he also has the knee-jerk reaction of getting mad at me rather than what's really behind his anger. I'm not sure how far he'll go with therapy-I guess too soon to tell.
Does wanting the questions answered ever go away?
Better yet, if you do well you realize the questions don't even matter. Honest.
As for your question about MLC Husbands, go ask Yellow Rose or Brand New Day, both their husbands came back. Just remember that every situation is similar, but everyone is different. We are all in this together alone. : )
You are doing great for a newbie though.
Thanks Jack! Today started out OK-I was trying to be upbeat. Had another DB telephone counseling session-planning on focusing on me, distancing for next 3 weeks a bit-not being so available, staying positive around H. Sounds very challenging when I write it out! This afternoon, H started talking about money, how our budget would change if he was gone..got me emotional. It started as a disussion to make me feel better about being able to support myself and keep the house-I know he means well, but the discussion "vibe" changed and he said he had opinions about how I was spending money, but that he would keep thoe opinions to himself for now.. He sees it as we had a fight about money today(which is something we rarely ever did before) and I see it as a discussion that got emotional(because I didn't want to have it or think about him leaving me). So he left and I just felt like today was something he will count against me- I feel(and this is probably wrong) that he keeps track of the positives and negatives-like there is a tally going on constantly. Any gestures I make for closeness aren't reciprocated, so I think distancing is a good idea. I'm still foused mentally on the OW and feeling threatened, although I don't think he's seen her since 3/22(because she has her kids this week). Just not feeling so positive today. I hope to start tomorrow fresh-we should get some snow!
K Hang in there
You and H will have discussions sometimes
sometimes they provoke them to prove to themselves their cause
we are only human and after all this is a very painful ordeal
none of us can do perfect
I believe it does not matter
I think the work has to be in them and they will run no matter how seemingly perfect we are..they will find fault sleep well and take care of yourself
you are doing great
peace
Had another DB telephone counseling session-planning on focusing on me, distancing for next 3 weeks a bit-not being so available, staying positive around H. Sounds very challenging when I write it out! Any gestures I make for closeness aren't reciprocated, so I think distancing is a good idea. I'm still foused mentally on the OW and feeling threatened, although I don't think he's seen her since 3/22(because she has her kids this week). Just not feeling so positive today. I hope to start tomorrow fresh-we should get some snow!
KJ,
You are right in that the adjustments you will need to make are challenging. One of the strengths of the DB approach is that we continually (not daily) monitor and adjust our approach.
It sounds like some distancing is in order for you. One of the ways we make ourselves suffer is by trying to influence a situation or our spouses, when they are beyond are influence, in the short term. We delude ourselves that there is something we can do to change the situation.
Acceptance (being present without judging, clinging, or resisting) is a challenge, but it's essential.
CL
Cl-Funny you should write about acceptance. I woke up this morning(too early of course) feeling more comfortable with acceptance and not influencing. We are having a blizzard here and my H did come over to work. I partially thought he would just stay at his apartment today. He may actually "get stuck" here-we'll see how the weather/day goes. Will have to distance starting this weekend... So far I've remained upbeat and positive-feels a bit easier today. Thanks for your support everyone!
So far the day is going OK. H is working in office. Shoveled driveway together. I asked him what he would like for dinner-I had mentionned it earlier and things he said made me think he was planning to stay over...However, after my dinner question, he siad "It sounds like you're assuming I'm staying for dinner" AAAGGGH. I guess I was! So now I'm bummed even though all day I was trying to plan for the worst...somehow my wishful hoping got the better of me. I've been reading alot of threads. I marvel that many people are at a place of calmness(for the most part), when their spouse is with a OW/OM...I'm guessing it just takes perseverance and inner strength to get there. I'm stll pretty emotional and hurting and angry. Still wishing for that "happy ending" when he says.."I do love you and I'm so sorry!" ..
OM/OW = NOTHING you can do about it. Really. If you try to come between them they pull closer together. It is that simple. Sometimes the best thing to do is bury your head in the sand...but that's not the long term solution. Ok?
Thanks Jack. Don't know if there's enough sand! There isn't anything I've done to affect my H and OW's relationship except know about it. I haven't asked about the OW so much as how my H feels when he is around her.. But we haven't talked about R or the A/OW since Monday morning. I have no idea where my H's head is right now. He has a therapy session tomorrow AM and I'm going (to sit outside I case they want me to join). So we'll see what happens. Having a hard time getting past my emotions-getting my mind to a calm place.
I marvel that many people are at a place of calmness(for the most part), when their spouse is with a OW/OM...I'm guessing it just takes perseverance and inner strength to get there. I'm stll pretty emotional and hurting and angry. Still wishing for that "happy ending" when he says.."I do love you and I'm so sorry!" ..
KJ
I wouldn't call it calmness. The inner strength is about not being reactive (judging self or others, clinging, or resisting). It's OK to be emotional. It's allowing any type of weather to flow thru you.
CL
Having a hard time getting past my emotions-getting my mind to a calm place.
KJ,
The idea isn't to get past your emotions, but to stay with them. The idea isn't to get to a calmer place, but to stay in the place you're in. Allow the weather to flow thru you.
CL
Just finished watching JUNO with my daughters(second time we've seen it)...Of course the filter I watched it through now is so different..Juno tells her Dad that she just needs to know that two people can stay married/happy forever. She wonders how you know when you've found that someone for the long haul..Her Dad says "Look, in my opinion the best thing you can do is find a person who loves you for exactly what you are. Good mood, bad mood, ugly, pretty, handsome, what-have-you. The right person is still going to think the sun shines out of your ass. That's the kind of person that's worth sticking with. " Its hard to think your H is that person when they are going through a MLC...
So, H had dinner with us than left on the icy roads for his apartment. Apologized for eating and running(but at least helped with the dishes!) He called to let me know he made it OK and then I said goodbye (matter-of-factly)before he could-he seemed slightly surprised but hung up. I worry that if I start distancing myself too much, it will send him further into the arms of the OW. He and I are best friends and he doesn't really have any other friends he talks to regularly (except maybe the OW-he says he doesn't talk much about us..), so has this happened to anyone else? Where you distance yourself and they get closer to the OW? Because right now, I'm wondering if he is having second(second) thoughts about the OW since I found out about their rekindling the affair last Saturday. Should I ask him if he's going to tell his therapist tomorrow or just stay mum and upbeat? Any advice?
In my situation I came to the point that I felt I had to distance for me and for her. Your H sounds like my W. Her and I have been best friends and she doesn't really have anyone else to confide in.
For me it just came to the point that it felt like she took our friendship for granted so I felt I needed to distance for my emotional health and for her to realize there are consequences to her actions.
Do I worry that it's going to push her further to the OM? Honestly I don't even think about what she's doing for the most part anymore. The only thing I really think about in regards to my W is that I hope she is safe.
If I were you, I would stay mum and upbeat. Focus on yourself. Listen to Jack. He gives great advice. Have you read the resources that they have on here?
Take care
Dennis
Thanks Dennis,
Rough night with little sleep, but I did check out Bowtech's wisdom in the NLC resources. I have read several of Michele's books several times and many others over the last few months. I'm not to the point where I can not think about the OW. This is still pretty fresh/new. The separation came days after my H told me about being unhappy for years and possibly being in love with the OW. My H has reframed our entire relationship through his current MLC/depressive filter-which is a very baffling aspect of the MLC for me to understand...That he felt disconnected EVERY time we made love/had sex in our marriage(15 years). That he had doubts about marrying me from the get-go, that he felt like our wedding day was a funeral..-that last one was a justification why he wasn't going through a MLC-because he'd felt this way all along. Our marriage was actually very good/fulfilling for the most part except we didn't manage conflict well-both avoided it. He says he never felt like he could be himself(I hope this current manifestation isn't the real him). I realize the dysfunctions in our relationship that got us to this unhappy place. So I will keep working on me. I'll try to stay upbeat and positive without questions today. One day at a time. Thanks for your help!
K
I would stay upbeat and positive with little pressure
If there is a way you can talk to therapist on your own (if its your therapist also?)
some therapists will see each person seperately
I would try that route without H knowing at this point..
the MLCers rewrite history and they all say similar stuff about the M, th e wedding ect. ect
the ow..is a painful part of this
I just found out after 2 years of this
I think it was better for me not to know in some ways
it is still painful..but getting less
Ive done a session or 2 on the OW at my IC
turns out there was some childhood issues regarding sibling rivalry and thats why it was so painful for me
everthing is connected to our past
peacs
Hi Peacetoday,
We go to different therapists. I did go and sit outside while he had therapy today. He shared some of what he learned on the way home. He felt it was a good session and he might not be so apprehensive for the next one(4/10/09)-that's good for him b/c he dreads therapy. He talked about setting boundaries and doing what feels right for him, not what necessarily pleases others.
He said he'd always been a pleaser, gone along with what others wanted-and that it had nothing to do with me-that it was about him and his history. Of course I'm listening and validating and supporting while he shares and my mind is wondering is he talking about boundaries with me? or is it the OW(b/c she went to his apartment last week and that is when they restarted their affair-she pursued him(he is a distancer))-could be both of us.
He went home from "work"(at his home office here) early b/c he says he has a lot to digest and think about. I stayed upbeat and pleasant and asked no questions! (It is getting easier if I concentrate on it each time we interact). I am kind of down b/c I know that now I must distance myself(there won't be any boundaries to set w/me if I'm not around, not initiating anything)-makes me sad-like I'm giving up on him.
Makes me lonely thinking he probably won't initiate anything with me-he seems distant and closed off now. I do have a few things planned for the weekend with friends, but there's a lot of time in between.
I just hope he keeps contact with the girls(he didn't last weekend at all).
Just remember that these situations are fluid. Just because you distance now doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever. Pay attention to what happens and adapt accordingly.
K
Sometimes I think it doesnt matter what we do
we distance
were friendly
some of them have to go thru the tunnel on their own
therapy is a plus..if he is willing and working on himself
some of these guys may be able to work thru this quicker and with a smaller amount of damage
but
most of tham seem to have to go and create a real mess of their M, the finances and their R with just about everyone except the ow
you are doing so well
just tke care of yourself and your finances and your kids
peace
Last night was rough-I felt so angry and alone-lots of tears. Worked out this morning and more tears. The waves of sadness and rejection hit me unexpectedly.
So my H is looking for another apartment(his lease for his first one expires July 1). So that makes me think either he's hedging his bets(he'll either move back home or move to a bigger place where the girls can have a bedroom of their own). Of course, in my sad state I suspect he's just planning on moving to a bigger place so that when he divorces me, the girls can spend half their time with him.
He's given me no indication of what direction he's headed with the OW, or his life. I know its probably b/c he has no clue, but it still hurts to see him make moves that take him further away from me. I'm still refraining from talking about the R or A, but my mind is constantly running conversations/questions...
Does the waffling have a time frame-is it part of a stage of MLC?
KJ,
I can empathize with your situation, as I'm going thru something similar, in terms of the WAS being distant.
We have to learn acceptance, that we ultimately don't have control over our situations. They are going to make the decisions (even if misguided) they're going to make.
Sometimes, our situations call for us to have to learn to let go of the controls, and let things happen on their own. I think this is the case for you.
You can't think your way thru this phase. There is likely no strategy or intervention that will stop the downward spiral.
Tara Brach, author of Radical Acceptance, advises to pause and hold your hand to your heart as a symbol of kindness to yourself and to stay present with the difficult emotions.
I'm thinking of you in this difficult time, and am reminding you that you are part of a community here, and are not alone.
CL
CL,
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I'm crying a lot today, so easily. I'm not sure why today is so hard-I know my mind is ruminating-trying to make sense of things that make no sense at all. Weekends seem hardest for me I guess. I've got things scheduled to do, but there's more free time. I have a hard time picturing my self single/divorced/alone. I'm trying to be comfortable with that image, so that I can mentally move on, but right now it eludes me. Thanks again-its nice to know I'm not alone!
CL,
I have a hard time picturing my self single/divorced/alone. I'm trying to be comfortable with that image, so that I can mentally move on, but right now it eludes me. Thanks again-its nice to know I'm not alone!
KJ,
I understand wanting to hold onto people, things, or identities we have of ourselves. I'm a person who likes security and to hold onto things, to create an illusion of security. This ordeal is teaching me to not hold onto things so tightly, and to be more flexible, less judgmental, less clingy, and more self-reliant, and it will do the same for you in your own way.
I'm not ready to let go of the house and neighborhood I've lived in for 15 years. I was bound and determined to not ever be a D guy. I still have embarrassment thinking that I could be that soon.
This is going to be an emotional weekend for you, but there is a resilience that shows in your posts. Provide yourself with whatever you feel like you need, whether it's structure, connection, or a box of kleenex and a long crying episode.
CL
K
Hi
weekends are hard
when all this first started , I made a few single girlfriends to hang out with on the weekends
that helped so much
one night my friend and I stumbled into this country western dance club
people were line dancing, smiling and couples dancing the east coast swing, cha cha, 2 step ect
we started taking lessons
now almost 18 months later, we dance weekly there and have many friends..bascially it is fun
like working out with friends
it is non threatening as the same people go every week
so
It is good to find another woman to hang with
I dont suggest dating or anything like that just to go to a movie, dinner, dancing with
so many times , I used to go dancing with my heart heavy and thinking only of H
now, I look forward to it, and it is part of my new life
it takes time
I agree with CL
at this phase of the crises, they seem to have to spread their wings
I was told
He has to go and mine did
they visit frequently as it is hard for them to let go completely as well but again
unfortuneately there is NO easy way out
they have to explore their freedom and youth
we have to expolre connecting deeper with ourself, our God, our kids our world
lovingly letting them go
this is not a lesson for the weak
our journey will take to places in ourselves that are amazing as our lives unfold and we become closer to who we are
peace
CL and Peace-
Thanks for the support. Lots of tears today-that just come with memories and a vivid imagination... I went to a small dinner party at a friend's house tonight while my H stayed with my youngest daughter and took her out for dinner. The dinner party was fun, but everyone else was with spouses and kids-so I kept being aware of who wasn't there with me... I came home and my H was still here playing cards with my daughter-they were having fun which is awesome since my youngest has the most anger towards my H about the separation. My H had done all kinds of "honey-do" things/chores around the house that helped me tremendously. I know I'm supposed to remain distant, but I gave him a hug goodbye-at least he hugged me back. I just sent him a very short "thank you" email for all he did tonight. I'm hoping it wasn't too much-he complained of not being appreciated, of being taken for granted in our marriage, so I am trying to be aware and acknowledge all that he does for us. I am letting go more than I ever have, hopefully it will become easier on my end. I've always been emotional at leaving/letting go/saying goodbye. I don't know if its abandonment issues(I'm adopted) or what. Intellectually I know we have little control over people/things, no ownership of anything but our selves. Emotionally I don't think I'm quite as enlightened. I'll just keep trying. Thanks again for your support and good ideas!
K
It is a tough call
to be distant
this technique is to let the WAS realize and feel the loss
this one was hard for me too
for the first 2 years I was mostly there..validating H and being the wife I thought he always wanted
I fwlt I had to b/c I made a lot od mistakes in the M
I was not there for H a alot so I needed to do this as a amends for my shortcomings in the M
I said thank you
I was appreciative
and our R went well during the seperation..but I dont think H felt any loss b/c I was there
now I dont really know what the odds are that even if they feel the loss they will return
vs
if we are there for them they will return
I think we have to try different things and decide which tecnique will be best
Im still trying to figure this one out
peace
Hi Peace,
I think I've had a similar philosophy. After my H left, I analyzed and read a zillion books. I figured out how our relationship was dysfunctional(both of us avoiding conflict) and stuck in a rut(forgetting to be thankful/appreciative), etc. So I feel like distancing is removing support, but I do think it may help my H see/feel what I have been providing, once its not so available.
The other obstacle for me is the OW. I'm fearful that once I'm not as available, my H will go to the OW for what he's missing-he already goes there for the sex. She's not fully available to him either, since she has her two young children every other week. My H feels strongly he shouldn't become a part of her children's lives unless they are in a committed/longterm relationship. I guess I won't know when if/that happens though. I doubt he'll tell me. He isn't sharing much with me except mundane details of his daily life and who knows if its the full truth.. He still has got one foot in and foot out the door. He has left some clothes here at our home. He hasn't told his family that we're separated(now almost 3 months)-just that he's depressed and on antidepressants. I guess, as always, one day at a time.
By the way-since my library here is lae ad there are NO books on MLC..what is the difference between a WAS and a spouse going through MLC?
K
THis is my take on WAS vs MLCer
MLC is a developmental stage usually occuring in all people between ages 35 and 50 (give or take a few years)( there may be exceptionsas some go this life phase earlier or later..
while some people transition through Mid life without leaving their spouses and destucting their lives, others do not
It may have something to do with that persons childhood and previous unresoved issues; or previous developmental stages a person goes through, or maybe has not fully gone through properly like adolesence
MLC may been started before bomb or after a dealth or trumatic event in the past year before bomb
From my understanding, once a person goes in MLC, they begin this journey
It seems complex and has something to do with reliving their youth..not acceoting death ,sorting through unresolved issues of past
seems once in it, It cant be stopped and it lasts 2-7 years
stages include denial anger replay depression withdrawal acceptace
MLCers seem to want to keep one foot in each world
many of them do not file for D
b/c they are unsure
MLC resourses explain more
the MLcer usually has an A
spends huge amounts of money
may start dressing younger
dying hair
A WAS is a person who is not in a developemental stage or crisies and decides thaey want out of their M
many of these will file immediately after bomb
this is my take on it
peace
Thanks Peace.
I think my H is an MLCer. Definitely one foot in and one foot out the door. He makes statements about realizing he wants out of the relationship, that "our life doesn't work for him anymore", but when I suggest we separate our bank accounts, he doesn't pursue it. He talks about the future in vague terms, in terms of "ifs" and not "whens". The spending money has only been very slight b/c he is so money conscious-very responsible there. The depression, the A, the waffling, all make me think MLC not WAS...Very much in limbo.
Today he emailed me and texted me without my initiation. We talked a bit on the phone today-my one misstep was talking about him finding a new place when his lease is up. I said I hoped he'd move home but if he didn't I would be happy to help him look for a new apartment. He didn't say much. He was happy that I thanked him for the chores he did-so I know being appreciative is a good thing. Less tears(?no tears I think) today. Weekend is almost over!
I'm anxious about next week and already feel clingy b/c the OW should have no kids(so she's available to him)...Will have to stay strong.
K
how old is your H?
I would watch the money very carefully
MY H busted our business..he had secret credit cards even before bomb
but at first after bomb, he spent carefully
after about 1 year he spent more and more
until it was apparent
keep your eye on that account
I would check it daily or every few days
I never thougth my H would spend this way..but the OW dont care and our H want to act like donald trump around them
I was thinking about you
im not sure but maybe talk to coach
I wonder if your stance should be more availablee right now to your H since he is in therapy
not to persue..but to be supportive, appreciative, available,upbeat
im not sure
they always say go no contact
but it so limits showing opur H the other side of the coin
how great this new R could be
especially if he isnt sure about ow
( instead of limited contact)
peace
My H is 44. My DB coach suggested becoming more distant and trying that for 3 weeks. Its tricky b/c H works in our home in his office and I see him in the AM and lunchtime..
I will separate our bank accounts if he spends anything but food/gas out of our joint account. He is paying for his apartment and other expenses out of his business account(which he just put a password on-so I can no longer see). I'm the only one putting money in the joint account.
Well so much for being upbeat and positive. I asked my husband if the boundaries he was working on from therapy had to do with me. He said his boundary is his therapy is his-he doesn't want to share. I said I'd like us to remain friends but I feel all we talk about is chitchat. He felt all we talked about was relationship stuff(which I know we haven't for at least a week).
I got a bit upset and got ready to leave. I asked him to let me know if he decided to continue his A, b/c I couldn't be his friend then-it would be too hard emotionally. He nodded. He said he would eat lunch elsewhere(he works out of the house and I come home for lunch-so we usually eat together)-I said no-I would eat at work. I said I wanted to know who he is-he said its a shame I didn't for all these years-I agreed it was a shame. I said it would be nice knowing who you are now to see if there's anything there between us-as friends or anything. I said I felt he's closed his heart to me. Oh the backsliding was bad! But I am so angry/hurt now, at least I have the conviction that I can be distant for awhile.. I'm sure he'll keep seeing the OW. He doesn't have me..so there really aren't too many people for him to talk to. He's in his office all alone everyday.
I'm regretting I even brought up a R issue(the boundaries), but I'm not super strong yet with this DB stuff. Yet. I'll keep trying.
K, I am sorry. This is so hard. I am at it for almost two years and I still backslide. Not nearly as often as in the beginning, but it still happens.
The most important thing you could do right now besides GALing is to stop talking to your h about feelings, the ow, the two of you or anything like that because it is pressure to your h. He is not hearing you right now and you are only going to make him angry.
When you think you are going to say something, count to 50, leave the room, call a friend, come here. I know that you think you are going to get answers, you are not. I know you hope that you are going to say something that will magically make it all clear to h, but you wont. He is lost right now.
I know its hard. But really try as hard as you can to treat h like you would a neighbor. Be polite, cordial and friendly.
You can do this. You can.
K
we all backslide
It is sometimes hard to be supportive without getting into something especially if the MLCer says something we dont agree with
you have been doing well
but there is no way to really get thru to him or get a straight answer from thm
they become secretive..it is part of the MLC(teenagers stuff)
we the LBS are not totally safe b/c most of us would not approve of the MLCer new lifestyle and choices
so now your H put a password on the business account
this is how it starts
Is that your business account too(half your business)
this is how my H almost busted us , but his only mistake was leaving me on account, so I could see his spending
Think about this b/c many of these guys will overspend and lose it all
protect the business if you can
protect your house
and moniter all you can
peace
My husband's buisness is his own and he is barely making enough to support himself on his own. I have been supporting us for several years while his business got going.
So I sent my H an email after our fallout at lunch:
H,
I'm sorry I got emotional. I haven't brought up anything "heavy" for a week and I'm sure sorry I did today!
I will be eating lunch at work for now. I will try to stay our of your life and truly be separate as much as I'm able. I won't contact you unless its about the kids/house. I'll pick up the kids after school this week.
I am still willing to be your friend should you want that, but if that's to happen, I expect you would be MY friend too. If we were friends I would hope that you would feel comfortable being open and honest with me about anything-not that you'd have to share everything-but I would hope that comfortableness would be there between us as friends. I would give the same.
I would want to know who you are, would want you to be authentic with me, not shielded ( I feel that if I took you up on your previous offers to see your cell phone or business account now you wouldn't let me-I feel you're protecting yourself from me. You've completely withdrawn from me- I feel without need). I'm certainly not out to hurt you, or make you feel bad. Of all the people in your life, I suspect I am your biggest supporter. I do support you finding yourself, finding happiness and peace.
I have plenty of people to have chitchat/superficial talk with-that's not what I need or want from a close/good friend. The ball is in your court.
-me
Here's his response:
I cannot take any more. We are both living separate lives as much as we are able to. I know its difficult and confusing (it is for me anyway) but I feel like it is what I have to do. I appreciate you recognizing it.
I will always be your friend.
So..my heart was pounding. I suspect his words are much more final sounding than his actions. I'm not sure what he cannot take anymore of. It still sounds like he's in limbo and confused-I'm guessing that stage takes awhile. Do you think having an OW/A prolongs the confusion? I thought it would distract him from the actual work he needs to do.. I hope I didn't go on too much about the friend stuff in my email- I just wanted him to know I still am here(even though I'll be much more distant/dim), but do have needs too. Anyone have any other sggestions for me?
I do appreciate your input Peace and Begginersmind!
K, please do not send him any more emails. You dont have to keep telling him you are his friend. Just go about your life. Dont tell him what you are going to do, just do it.
He cant take anymore of you talking to him about the two of you. It is pressure to him. Treat him as a neighbor. Just live your life.
That's my plan. I hope I can do it. I'm already tending to mentally focus on the OW and wondering if he's now gone to her. But I'm trying to focus on my girls and their needs. Well tomorrow is my therapy session-hopefully it will help me sort things out and do some work on myself. Thanks!
Dear KJ,
Okay, it's late and this is long, but you bring up so many issues and you are new to this...
FIrst please read the DB books, especially the Divorce Remedy one, as it focuses a bit more on DB techniques and not quite as much on bashing the concept of divorces in general,
which WE all "get" anyhow...but
you need to apply the principles you are reading about and posting about here and, sweet KJ, you are not.
If you think you have been DBing and you are reading the real books, by now you see you were mistaken. We've all been there.
The good news is that maybe when you really do apply them, you'll see results.
Just in reading a few of your posts I see you are doing almost everything it says NOT to do....so snap out of that, come up with a plan and STICK with it....Lots of us are around to help you formulate yours.
I see by your registration date you just found all this out in October and nothing before that indicated a serious problem to you? Have you searched inside for your role in this situation?
This is not about blaming you but protecting you. How so? B/c when you go to a marriage c and say "we" have a problem...if the c says, "YOUR H" is the problem, there are a lot of w's/LBSers who'd say "
YAY...IT IS HIM, NOT ME!"
and they'd be stupid for saying that. Why? b/c if there's nothing you are doing that can improve then YOU'RE TOTALLY HELPLESS as you are already just fine and perfect...(aside from how unrealistic that is, I'm really trying to show you that there are practical meaningful GOOD reasons for searching within HARD and Bravely so that you improve as a woman)--fixing your flaws, doing some 180s', growing and becoming the best woman you can be, or as I am wont to say,
"GAL and Be a woman only a fool would leave". So you see, if your h is "the" problem and you played no role in this, damn. You have NO control over your h, or his behavior or YOUR LIFE in the near future and now it means that the kids futures, their lives and the lives of their children (and even the marital "legacy" they leave behind is ALL GOING TO DEPEND ON YOUR H CHANGING???? Let's hope not and Of course not.
You control you and all your reactions to what life throws at you. When I go to mc, I want to be "the" problem b/c I trust and know that I Will damn well do whatever it takes to get my ego and pain and anger and sense of self righteousness
out of the way, so that I can rebuild, restore or reconstruct a strong marriage with a foundations I HELPED make -- and THEN I'll FEEL SAFE... I can only control me and my reactions to what life throws at me. If I have to trust that he's "fixing his issues"...um, no that does not make me feel safe. Blaming OW is a bit too easy to do, though God knows it does not help your sitch and IS infuriating...
I'm going to give you some background on signs of MLC that were alluded to earlier and I thought I'd throw in a few other things in too. My sitch seems to be progessing well and that is consistent, IN HINDSIGHT, with MLC but I could never be sure at the time...but there are some factors in addition to what you read earlier, to
look for, while bearing in mind that this does NOT change what you must DO.
Yes your h is conflicted. That is clear. As to whether he is in MLC or found his "real love/happiness", (in his mind anyhow) is not clear.
But your approach has to be the same. In a very important way, you need to see that it does NOT matter whether 1-this is a transient weird fluke issue from the past that reared its' ugly head, or 2-this is the new and permanent jerk h so get used to it cuz he aint' gonna improve and likely will spiral downward so guard your coins and valuables, or 3- he's in full blown MLC and IF SO, 4-how long will it take and 5-how long can you wait AND OH BY THE WAY.....most, do not come back to the LBSers anyhow so you may be "waiting for nothing"" and 6- even if he does come back bruised and tattered and maybe NOT improved...do YOU Want that in your life then???
Lots of unknowns...what to look for and what you DO know are listed below...First, The only real diff in MLC vs WAH/jerk, is in
your hopes and expectations and I find that many LBSers want to say MLC b/c they cannot understand the behavior any other way and even with the MLC, it is not behavior we want to see or believe is happening. But how relevant is it? Just relevant for your heart.
So you know, I'm coming from a pretty good place in this topic. My h
apparently had a MLC of sorts. And we have reconciled. But he never said he was a WAH and he always SAID he didn't want a divorce. He simply wanted to live apart for a year or two to get training for something I strenously opposed for several rational financial emotional and familial reasons. It cost us a fortune but thanks to my filing for a sep, our house did not get mortgaged in order for him to "invest" more in the "gold rush" his heroes were telling him the tundra would provide....
In some ways his career had taken over our lives and
I had bought into that for some time, he is a physician and the schooling and training had unrelentingly long hours that were fully consuming...and a sense of entitlement crept up in him
that I enabled...he "deserved" to be happy b/c he worked SO HARD (and he did and he does still), to spend money on things without really consulting or inviting me to participate... and at first I was glad he bought some "toys" for himself, but wished I had been invited along. THat behavior was NEW...And repeated in a short time. Soon he evolved into a full fledged jerk. But the behavior was drastically different than our marriage had been.
Lots of out of character things, no calls to his family, definite money weirdness (which I learned a lot from--my L was a Godsend, never provoking but always protecting--great motto) and failing to pay bills on time or at all (UNprecedented), more overt selfishness and the interactions with the kids took a nosedive. This was a father who was busy in the past BUT when home, was really present with the kids. Homework, coaching, etc. But then, poof!! Had to go to train SOME MORE....and then start a JOB 3000 miles away...irrational choices, truly. I mean, NOT debatable IN HINDSIGHT...but at the time, I may as well have been speaking to my bowl of oranges. I could not reach him, but I COULD annoy him and that is what you are doing with your h with your "friendship talks". Those are fake attempts at intimacy under the guise of an olive branch. Forget that. IF you can be friends, it will happen in TIME....(FOR THE RECORD, I have two relatives who divorced, only to remarry their spouses YEARS later...they were happier the 2nd time around. But there was no immediate friend talk; that develops naturally as you co-parent and the other spouse sees you in a different light, from A DISTANCE...with objectivity and maybe through the eyes of another man...
I don't know what your h is doing or feeling. Can't "diagnose" him yet.
But I do know that most men WITHOUT OW's make financial plans for leaving well in advance of the departure. So while the w knows nothing, there are USUALLY funds being shifted, bills not paid, pre-paid, assets hidden, sheltered, liquidated, etc.
Statistically, this is dramatically more likely when there is an OW...sorry, those are the facts. In your favor is that you are the bread winner so HE has more to lose in a divorce /bc how will he support himself then? Will OW support him? (I bet That's super attractive to OW...something tells me she does not know how much you make versus him...does she?) Also you have more invested though so in a way, you are risking more now and able to lose more while he puts money into a "business" that YOU KNOW is not going just to business. Now you might face IRS hassles and there is NO "innocent spouse" rule for the IRS. Lovely.
A third of divorces that are filed, are never finalized. See a L asap to learn your rights. READ THE DB BOOKS.
Stop all R talks. DO NOT INITIATE THEM and when he calls, be the one to end the conversation. NO ILYs. NO arguments when he revises the M. If he says something you really think is waaaayyy offff AND important,
you can say "I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't recall it that way at all." And drop it. Now, if he says something with a grain of truth in it about you, like maybe you were too impatient or shot down something he really wanted out of hand. Since you want him to know that m to you WOULD be better now than before, you CAN say "You have a point. I should have done "X" sooner." If that makes you feel too vulnerable (dont' fall into the trap of feeling the need to be right is more important being happy...make sense?)
or if you think you did the best you could given the givens but now see it in anew light, say that!! for instance...say "Yes, if I could do things over again I'd do a lot of them differently" and let him wonder.
He'll KNOW you are changing by your ACTIONS + TIME (not words) and you are doing it maturely and making it safer for him to say a few things that way too, without you jumping on his comments to either argue OR start assuming he is moving closer...just listen to those comments and react as positively if you can.
If he persists, you have to summarize in < 3 sentences and repeat that you don't recall it that way and say something positive, like "yes the school years were hard, but I remember a lot of laughter, (or something that was TRUE and positive for you, friends, adventure, great sex, whatever, and move on happy in YOUR recall) But this is down the road KJ. Right now that will almost all sound like you are pressuring/pursuing/pleading....I only say these sentences b/c a lot of people want to "rehearse" ahead of time for things b/c they get flustered.... If he attacks you, depending on the level of attack like a vicious one, you say "I won't listen to any more of revised history to rationalize your behavior, let alone this disrepect. I deserve better" and LEAVE THE ROOM...CALMLY...ALWAYS CALM...the minute you whine or yell or sound angry, you'll become a "bitch" in his eyes and that will validate his choice to leave you. Don't fuel the negatives, counter with positives.
Your h WILL feel defensive...make what you must say SHORT...you have NOT been doing that in case you think you have....) And for the most part, you don't need to say anything right now. It's just that you will "run" into him for a bit more. And you'll engage b/c you are not doing the DB principles yet. DO THEM. They work. Not always. But more often than any other approach I've seen for m's at this stage of things.
IF he does talk to you about things other than R talk, then listen like a lover/friend. (without pointing it out). Applaud the 1% of things he does/says that are positive. His fathering, helping around the house, whatever.
At this point, you are trying to do two things; contrasting the warmth and love of your home (including fun time with the kids) with the "new wacky NOT FLAWLESS OW, AND you are also GAL and becoming a woman only a fool would leave [/b[.
Nothing about what you NEED from him, except about the kids (you can "need" toknow if he's going to get them at school) but the things about what you need or expect from him NOW are insane to bring up. They are the least of his concerns...
right now he may feel suffocated by you (said he can't take it anymore--honey, something you are doing is NOT WORKING and we like to try an approach to things that don't work, called DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT....like a 180--- and he may feel he is underachieving which he may see as your fault for "always doing
"X" something to him, like dumping kid work on him or house chores since he works from home, so you are really why he isn't doing better--- OR you don't make him feel like a man the way OW does, blah blah blah....
Back off. Detach lovingly, affirm and validate the positives. Say nothing about R talk and for God's sake why would you OFFER to help him look for a place to live after asking him to live at home??? Come on. Drop the matter. HE KNOWS you want him home. The 180 will be when you start acting as if life without him will NOT suck for YOU....which will (and I would bet a lot on this) make him wonder like hell, if he is doing the right thing. If he's' such a great catch and you are such a bad one, how come you are coming to terms with this? Why aren't you a wreck? (don't get sucked into thinking that begging him to come home will "prove" you love him and THAT will get him back....never seen it work for long. At best it gets the pity reconciliation which deteriorates into contempt pretty fast.
THE PLAN
GAL, be upbeat in front of him, if he asks how you feel about the troubles you two are having or the sep or divorce (depends on the stage you are in) be resigned to his tragic mistake, accepting his incomprehensible need to follow his path... knowing YOU will be fine, moving forward, growing, meeting new people, going to exciting places and doing interesting things...and you are deeply sorry about the damage to the kids but alas, you know YOU"LL be there for them --and you hope he will too b/c you know he loves them....[b]and leave his life status unsaid...
it is NOT relevant to your life plans if he is happy or sad. YOUR Happiness is what matters to you and only you can make yourself happy. NOT HIM...(All that MAY matter at his end, is whether he wants to be married to you some time down the road...) You will know if that happens.
Hope this helps more than confuses. Touched on a number of topics.
I'll never say that my m is "fine" b/c it feels as if you are never to be complacent again. Some people have been sleep walking in their m's and for my awakening, thru this crap, at least for this, I am grateful. And for the R I have with God, which is a lot better too. I am awake now.
Oh, also, agreeing on your marital history is NOT needed. Took me so long to get this. But It is a waste of time
. What you will need to do to reconcile, is agree about going forward...so bag the goal of agreeing on why or how you two got here. Figure out what you'd do differently. And stick to "the Plan"...
This DOES get easier...two steps forward, one back-- and sometimes 5 forward and 0 back...
(( j ))
K,listen to 25, her advice is spot on. She tells it like it is which I find so important.
You can do this. Read the books. We are here for you.
k
yes
25 has great things to say
peace
KJ,
Think about what 25MLC says and resonates for you.
I appreciate the validation and support I receive from this community, but also the feedback from people when they detect we are off course or about to veer off course from the DB track, and need to make a correction.
I've learned that we have to be willing to lose the M, to gain the strength needed to possibly save it (otherwise we're clinging to it). Acceptance and detachment (with compassion) are difficult, but essential skills.
Hang in there, and keep trying and adapting.
CL
I appreciate all the feedback. I have read divorce remedy and divorce busting several times and have talked with a DB counselor twice. I think I understand the distancing and doin a 180 technique and in fact a 180 for me is distancing which I started doing yesterday.
I will say that it hasn't been smooth sailing getting here for several reasons: my husband lives in an apartment but comes to our home to work out of his office so I was seeing him most weekdays since he left; when my husband first left and I discovered his EA had turned into a PA, his remorse and nervous breakdown had me working to save my marriage with traditional methods(I had not yet discovered what a MLC was, nor identified that he might be going through a MLC).
I am doing my best to GAL and separate/distance. I was successful for most of the last two weeks avoiding any talk of the R/A or OW, except when I discovered my H had restarted the A (3/21) and we discussed it for 30 minutes on 3/23. I have been overfocused on the OW. But as 25MLC says, it IS infuriating.
One more point to address: I have taken responsibility for my part in our marriage disintegrating. I have taken more responsibility than my H at this point, because he doesn't want to discuss it-so I don't know what insight he has, if any.
1)I was sleep-walking a bit through the last few years since my father passed away.
2)I thought I was appreciating my H, but he didn't feel appreciated.
3)We both avoided conflict, which lead to poor communication..
4)I wasn't being as physically active/sexually active as my H would have liked(nice twist now-my H rarely works out and I do all the time).
5)I vegged out in front of the TV at night instead of engaging my H(Now he watches TV too much at his apartment, and I read books and write on my thread)...
6) I mothered him and overfunctioned for him-and that seems to me to be where the most dysfunction in our relationship occurred-I have stopped and he is now functioning more on his own.
So there have been acknowledgements and definitely alot of work on my end. But as you know the complaints, when satisfied are never enough... h is conflicted and I know he has to work through this on his own. I am distant now and coming up with my own boundaries and trying to work through my anger and sadness while on my own, to move forward.
Thanks!
KJ,
Read your posts from start to now...couple of questions. What's with the "nervous breakdown" you say he had, and now he's in a "major depressive disorder"?
Gee, sounds SICK to me. Seriously. So you need to protect yourself but stop pushiing and pressuring. In the MLC world, IF THAT IS WHAT THIS IS...your time line is like a butterfly's. I mean, 3 months? One month since the "breakdown" which means what exactly? Did he start weeping uncontrollably, try to harm himself or what? And by the way, IF SO, he may not get the kids so often and btw, that MAY be safer for now. I am not being punitive and I highly recommend against it, but if your h actually fits the criteria (and I don't know how you are using the critieria as I'm a L married to a Dr and think of these as very specific dx) for "major dep episode" let alone a "nervous breakdown"....WOW...
What are you doing to GAL? Why haven't YOU separated the money "Just for now while you are living separately"? What poss advantage does giving him access to the joint funds have? That money is also your daughters. How do you feel about your h buying OW's kids gifts? Yeah, I didn't think you'd like that much. The $800 table she bought him is interesting. IF she remarried she won't get alimony (and neither will he if your state allows for it) and I cannot imagine him having a "blast" with her kids.IF IF IF it comes to that and they start mingling, don't imagine happy family time 24/7.... Every time he sees her with her kids and tries to play "Step dad" he'll have a knot in his stomach that he may NEVER discuss with you, but it will be there. Your d's will feel replaced so you need to encourage his R's with them and act as if he'll be a part time dad b/c he needs to start seeing just how comfortable and happy he is with his sitch. HER kids will feel the same, and Oh, as for your h now realizing that he was "always miserable all those years" hey, he's in the wrong field. He should be in Hollywood b/c that means ALL those laughs, memories, holding the baby girls, reading to them in bed, ML, the travel and trips, the late night talks, the hugs, the hiking or other things you enjoyed doing, the house, the plans, the friendships with others and the vacations HE WAS ACTING THE WHOLE TIME!! OMG GIVE THAT MAN AN OSCAR!!!
Please....he's looking at you and the past, through the nutty eyes of a (BEST CASE SCENARIO--whacked out MLCer so screwy right now he can't tell his T the truth about things, much less plan out a life for himself or his family but he feels like a failure at home and at work so the only place he isn't a loser right now is with OW.....Your h has some serious crap that has not made him the best H in the world either. Truth be told, when you are not reeling so much, you'll see that SOME parts of your m were NOT so great for you. And that your needs have not been met for some time now.
I suspect part of this is that he is at an age where he realizes he is probably all he will ever be in life and this was in fact, a very depressing realization. He can barely support himself? Yikes, that hurts for a man. For many people and especially men, depression often ends up being turned outward as anger. A Russian author said that "when men feel Guilt, they attack" and I think she has a point. But it probably goes to guilt ridden women too. (Also read that depression sometimes is a lack of direction or purpose)
If a man isn't rich or very successful at his job by now, he probably won't ever be. If he had a passion or avocation (wanted to open a club someday, or play pro ball?) he now knows for sure -he'll never be famous so why bother picking up a ball? And the club? Oh, somehow he or "they" did not make it happen. How are his looks? Fading some of course..."yep, this is it...and isn't there supposed to be more?"
This existential angst is what we ALL go through but most of us either change our lives or learn to accept what we have and to be content with it. Not "miserably settling for mediocrity" but learning to be grateful and realizing the real journey here is an inward one, and gratitude is appropriate b/c in the grand scheme of things, we have it damn good. Your h has to figure this out for himself. As I said to BegMind, (I think), it's as if your h is trying to do a crossword puzzle of life and you are standing over his shoulders wondering what letter he'll put in next and pointing out the diff ones or sighing when he won't pick the word you wanted...LEAVE him alone and back off. I don't want to defend him. But he DOES have to figure this out for himself. You're slowing him down.
See, we do NOT know if your h will come back or HOW to MAKE him do that. We don't know. What we DO know, is a lot of things that seem to push almost ALL WAS's farther away...and we def know what does not help YOU in the long run.
Stop obsessing about OW...she's got 2kids...OMG yeah, sure, good luck H!! Sorry you were down, but now that you live in squalor with someone else's kids half the time and your kids half time and each set of kids has to adapt to a step parent they do NOT like or want to like and each of you gets to learn new "co parenting" skills....yeah I bet he's gonna be super "happy" and so will she...
Your job is to let him discover all this himself so he can realistically see that he was in fact often happy with you and the kids and more importantly, COULD BE again, GOING FORWARD....so don't push him somewhere else with nagging questions or being in his face with your need for "friendship & honesty". Come on KJ, you don't want to be friends with him. You want him to wake up and dump her and run back to you.. And as for honesty, since you know there is an A going on now, what else is there to know? Do you want details? Come on, I think not...not now at least and if it were me, (which it is not) I would NOT want details.
IF, IF IF the dream that he comes back can happen ever, it'll be after the A runs its' course and you GAL and are seen as an attractive appealing woman who MAY be open to friendship, based on civility to each other in the coming months or years as Co-parents, and THEN b/c you have children together...you'll see each other and the time lapse is GOOD b/c the changes are more dramatic. People don't notice change when they see you every day. How can your h miss you much if he sees you at lunch? Let him FEEL the feel of coming home to an empty house...
He has an inner voice somewhere in him that is screaming not to do this and to think of you or his girls. When you shut it out, with your parental voice "Why are you doing this" How can you do this? What are you feeling NOW?" or your voice of need, "Be honest with me even though it'll make me crazy and also be my friend as I define it even though you are leaving me and I would never do that to you".....b/c KJ, you are essentially attacking his choices or questioning his judement (or sniveling up to him hoping for scraps of concern from him which will mean what?....he really does love you!!....and therefore ---"if that"...just STOP IT!! b/c you are shutting down his own inner voice again.
Maybe it's the voice of God, or your h's conscience or whatever. But the pressure and the letters to him, and the therapists with you in the hall.....yi yi yi...back OFF...GAL and be upbeat in front of him for a reason...not a tactic to get him back, or b/c you are on eggshells...but bc you are now GAL, and maybe starting small, like thinking of the chick flicks you'll watch and the toilet seat being down and the financial security that comes from NOT worrying about an emotionally disturbed man who thinks the M was "the problem", not him, having access to the house hold funds...
For now, part of GAL means to note the little positives and I do mean it when I say chick flicks or whatever little things you and or the girls like doing that h was not a big part of. I recall renting some with my d's and making popcorn and watching "our" movies and getting into American Idol and voting madly and not having that tension around, waiting for the other shoe to drop, reading into everything, and eventually sighing with the relief when he'd leave. And being at peace, knowing that we'd ALL be just fine with or without this man AND so will you and your girls.
Put your girls first for now. Your job is to show them that they can survive this and that the pain they feel, like YOURS, is not fatal and not eternal. They are watching you to know how to react to life when their hearts are broken or life hands them a set back. You are modelling this for them now. They are watching you more than you know. They need to know you will NEVER leave them, and that they are safe and going to be fine no matter where their dad sleeps (or with whom). Please make sure they know they are YOUR Priority and their happiness will be the basis of YOUR Choices from now on. I told that to my then 9 y/o and she was so comforted by this. Really relieved her.
Is there any way you can NOT come home for lunch (of course) and he can work elsewhere? This is crazy. I would NOT want him around right now. You need time and space to detach and for him to notice the 180's b/c seeing each other every day prevents that big time, plus he cannot miss what he has... Maybe the bigger apartment would enable him to work from THERE and learn to live on his own...and sure, it MIGHT lead them to spend more time together but you know, that just speeds the R along its way that much faster.
Given what your h's other problems are, OW is really a bandaid and sooo not relevant...let that "R" run its pathetic course and say nothing that will draw them closer and prolong it anymore than necessary. He's already partly embarrassed by it and that is also why I don't much favor telling the world about it. People figure it out and if you are the messenger it poisons the well against you, draws THEM closer, and makes you look vindictive. Since kids can figure it out IF it comes to that, which I doubt it will, you'll look so much better for not having said anything. Frankly, I think the A or R or whatever you want to label it as, will last less than most. A year at the most but more likely months. Can you handle that?
Now...go protect yourself. When my h was peaking in his Alaskan mania, and I filed for a sep to protect the house he got MAD...okay he did NOT suddenly "wake up" at all....not til much later and for other reasons....but recently, like 2 years afterwards...he said, "good thing WE didn't mortgage the house to invest up there"....
You know why I was a saint that day? B/C I did not say "YOU MEAN, THANK GOD I STOPPED YOU??"
He knew...it took him a minute to process his words and he looked at me and I said, "yeah, good thing". And he stood up and hugged me for a long time. What's to say? Oh, "I was right!"? Of course not. We're on this site to be happy, not "right". Remember that.
So the last thing I'd tell you is that at some point (and hey, this IS new for you so cut yourself some slack but know he is confused too) you'll have to let go of the idea that he'll ever see the past the way you do, but he WILL see it more objectively if you don't fuel TODAY's interactions w/ negatives...make sense?
Don't argue with a man who just had a "breakdown" is now on meds and has a clinical diagnosis. that's like me arguing with this plate of food...LIFE IS SHORT and your h ain't well right now. Once when my h said something SOOO out there and sooo self serving, I actually did say to him, "just so I know, you are kidding, right?" And he said "NO" but he never said it again...sometimes it helps to gently prod the craziness out of them but you have to be so subtle.
(( j ))
Good luck, hang in there, it DOES get better but see a L soon. Why on earth not? You don't have to file or tell your h..just meet with one...think of your d's and then ask yourself if you are putting them first when you hide from seeing a L? Just b/c it hurts you with its' symbolism, does not make it a bad idea. It'll probably empower you as the L explains that your worst nightmares are not the end of the world if they ALL come true, and chances are very good they won't.
j-
Hi-
The nervous breakdown was uncontrollable crying, total confusion, and suicidal "talk"-without thinking steps through. H was diagnosed as chronic lowgrade dpression then after the nervous breakdown the diagnosis changed to major depression. He is on ADs now and going to therapy(all of which he was totally against til he hit "rock bottom".
You wouldn't know he is fighting this-he functions well with depression,in general. He is not a threat to anyone at this point.
I have seen a lawyer-several weeks ago(and my husband met with one right after he moved out-to get information only). The divorce will cost me and help H. I most likely will pay child support and maybe some alimony until he can find a better paying job.
So, I am trying not to tip the scales towards a D for now, in order to see how this all plays out after some time. If I separate our bank accounts now, he cannot survive financially more than a month. I don't want him coming back to me for financial reasons.
He doesn't spend anything out of our joint account except gas and food-the rest he pays for with his business funds.
He is adamant about not getting involved/meeting OW's children, unless the were in a committed relationship. Since OW has custody every other week, he has been seeing her on her "off weeks"(which this is one aas is the upcoming weekend).
I haven't spoken to H in 36 hours- I know thats not much, but its where I've started. We all start somewhere don't we?
I appreciate the feedback and your viewpoint of how I've slowed my H's process. I have known H more than half my life and he and my girls are really the only family I have in my heart. So it has been a slow process for ME to get moving on. But I am.
Thanks.
Ok-question for anyone..
Given my situation, would you insist H vacate office?(there is no room in his current apartment for his work files/computer and he can't meet clients in his apartment) I feel like if I push on doing these things I'm hitting him when he's down. It doesn't feel right to me. I don't think I'm letting the status quo be in order to have connection to him. When he first left, our plan was that when he came to work at our home in the morning he would have time with the girls before school and he would be there when they came home-this would keep a semblance of normality in their lives. So that's why we've kept his situation as is. He has updated his resume but hasn't really sent it out-not a lot of financial analyst type jobs out there at the moment and I'm sure his uncertaintly/depression is keeping him from actively searching.
BTW, his OW is financially sound and supports herself and some family members according to H. Her house looks as nice as ours from the outside
H has stated that he wants to be able to support himself and "grow up/grow some balls". This has been an issue with him for some time, that he's riding on my coattails. I've never felt that way about our careers or money-to me its all joint.
He started his own business a few years ago, put it on hold to help me move my father here and take care of my dad's stuff after he passed away. It takes time to build a client base-each year he does better, but of course, he's only a few years into building his business..He wouldn't want the OW or me supporting him financially. I don't feel like pushing the separation further(while he's just started AD(has just been 3 wks-not alot of response yet)and restarted therapy)is beneficial to him and its not affecting me at the moment-I'm watching the accounts daily. Isn't compassion a good thing?
OK
I left a brief non-emotional thank you to my H for doing a lot of chores yesterday, unasked, in our house. He emailed me that he got the note and that he had wanted to help. He then asked me to not leave my books about spouses having affairs around so our girls can see them. He felt it was disrespectful to him... My heart started pounding and I felt shame reading his remarks. I keep the books by my nightstand and I don't think the girls look at what I'm reading b/c I have a stack of about 10 books and I usually face the covers/spines upside down-so they are not readable-maybe I got sloppy-I really don't know...So I neutrally emailed a short (three sentences)apology and said I didn't mean to be disrespectful. Then I broke down and called him to apologize.
I know that was entirely wrong.
He was cold and said we weren't supposed to be talking(that was my idea, not his). I apologized again and thanked him again for doing the chores and said I did appreciate his help. I asked him if he had decided to keep seeing the Ow(b/c in our last conversation he agreed to tell me). He said he felt very detached, he wasn't sure, and he wasn't going to have a heavy conversation. I just said a yes or no would be fine, but I got nothing and said goodbye.
Ok.. So I know all of you veterans are going to think I'm a weak and stupid person walking into that and breaking down already to call him. I will say my only defense(if there is one!) is that I have an extrememly vivid imagination and it took all my efforts last night and early this morning NOT to drive by the OW house to see if his car was there. But I didn't drive by. I tried calming myself and my imagination. I know I should assume he is continuing the A, but in a way that lets my imagination run wilder. Anyway. I'm starting the "no contact" again.
I've been reading "Not Just Friends" and I certainly am going through much of what a betrayed spouse goes through-the post traumatic/hyperaroused/suspicious state of mind. It seems hard to get past b/c there is no communication and the A is most likely continuing. I will keep trying.
Wait, let me get my glasses on so I know what I just read....
Okay ---so YOU "disrespected" HIM by leaving books out in YOUR bedroom, to help you cope with your husbands adultery????? Nothing ironic in that to you?
And then HE complained to YOU about it? Nothing ironic there either? No tad of hypocrisy tugging at you yet?
And THEN YOU - called - HIM to APOLOGIZE....!!!!! A new record for turning the world upside down and then jumping into the ceiling/floor....!!!!! Does ANY of this strike you as INSANE???
Stop drinking the Kool-aid...OMG....OMG...
that's all I can say right now....
(( j ))
If you keep focusing on the affair & wondering if it is continuing (Believe me, he would happily tell you if he had ended it don't you think?? Don't force him to lie to you under the guise of being "honest friends....") Leave it alone, leave HIM alone, NO more R talk...get out the book again or run upstairs 40 times or do something but do NOT CALL HIM or bring this stuff up again....try to make it a week...A WEEK!! I'm telling you that you will wear yourself out and make it worse for the kids. How so?
b/c this focusing on him and the A and cycling back to it over and over, WILL CONSUME YOU with worry, sick feelings, and eventually ANGER & GRIEF and that is hell on earth.
AND You will basically be deserting your kids. They already lost their stepdad, for now at least. Have you already noticed that you are pre-occupied around them? Been there, done that. Have you noticed that they noticed it? Don't desert them now when they need YOU the most. Be there for them, be IN the MOMENT and not in the future or in OW"s house or your head all the time. Just stop it. You have to.
(( j ))
PS don't explain to them that he's confused or ask them to pray for him UNLESS they say something to you. Don't make excuses....besides, they'll come to you when they feel they can, IF they want to. What you say to them in meaningless compared to how you act. They need reassurance from you that you are never leaving them, they are safe, they do not have to move or leaves their school or friends and their lives will go on and they will likely see him around....when the dust settles....Do NOT stress the changes in YOUR life but the stability in THEIRS.....Be strong for them and be strong for yourself. BUT BE STRONG....frankly, your h probably needs that from you too. (But this is NOT about h~!!!!)
I know that was entirely wrong.
Ok.. So I know all of you veterans are going to think I'm a weak and stupid person walking into that and breaking down already to call him. I will say my only defense(if there is one!) is that I have an extrememly vivid imagination and it took all my efforts last night and early this morning NOT to drive by the OW house to see if his car was there. But I didn't drive by. I tried calming myself and my imagination. I know I should assume he is continuing the A, but in a way that lets my imagination run wilder. Anyway. I'm starting the "no contact" again.
I've been reading "Not Just Friends" and I certainly am going through much of what a betrayed spouse goes through-the post traumatic/hyperaroused/suspicious state of mind. It seems hard to get past b/c there is no communication and the A is most likely continuing. I will keep trying.
KJ,
I think it's great with all reading you're doing. I think change starts gradually internally, before there can be a commitment to behavioral changes. On the surface, it looks like you're stuck, but I don't think so. You're in the early stages of change, somewhere between contemplating about what you might have to do, and preparing to make a commitment to make the changes needed.
You're making initial tentative steps at DBing. You're on the right track.
You're aware of the mistakes you're making, and that is progress in and of itself. I consider your self-restraint from driving by to check on him a significant step.
CL
K
None of this is easy
we will often make many mistakes along the way
we learn we grow and we let go
painfully
you will get to the point when you will stop asking
you are probably still in the initial shock
when all this first began, I thought I could count on seeing weekly changes in my H
nothing changed except me
now I montier H when I see him
If he sasys /does nothing significantly different from one month to the next, I assume he is not moving
I practice letting go more and more
I am moving
peace
Ok.MLC- I see your point about the Koolaid and yes the thought did enter and stay in my mind about the hypocrisy but I think I understand how shamed my H is, how much self-loathng he has for the missteps he has taken and still seems to compulsively take. Right now, his daughters are about the only thing he has going for himself, the only thing of beauty that he has helped create in his 44 years-he thrown everything else away, or hasn't invested enough of himself to succeed(his business). So I know feeling vulnerable to their rejection of him probably feels like a fatal blow to him.
My daughters know that I love their father and that I am doing my best to continue and improve this marriage. They know their father is depressed and on medication, that we both go to therapy. They are astute enough to understand and appreciate that mom and dad are doing their best. They know they are both loved deeply by both of us ad I am not deserting them. It is a bit more relaxed at home, with just the estrogen raging and no tiptoeing on eggshells around a tense father.
As bad as today felt this evening unexpectedly improved. I forgot my H had a client meeting at his home office this evening so he was stll at our home when I got there after work. I got home and decided to be upbeat and act "as if" things were fine. It worked. I invited him to have dinner with the family and it was nice. I didn't talk about R/A/OW. So. Two steps back, one step forward. I am not focusing on the A/OW as I had a calming conviction(perhaps with everyone's help here) that he will just have to go through what he's going through and if that includes acting like a teenager in-heat-then it is what it is. It hurts to be betrayed, to have your spouse disregard marriage vows, but its already been done-I don't think he sees a future with the OW-he has said as much. So somewhere inside I found some strength and resolve which hopefully will last awhile.
The fact that acting "as if" and being upbeat actually worked was quite the positive reinforcement.
Thanks MLC, Peace and CL for your posts-I just kept venting and writing today to keep my mind from going in circles and thought maybe you all gave up b/c I've made some pretty pathetic moves. Thanks for sticking wth me and helping guide me!
K
I went through a lot of that
nice conversations, time toggether.no R talks for 2 years
keep expectations low
It is just a practice
I saw it as showing my H what we could have
making amends to him in a way b/c so much of our M, I was not available
It created a nice freindship,,thats it though
MLC still has to run its course and in the end they decide
and even with the frindshipo, the kids, the house , family and business ..some will not return
peace
KJ,
understand that I see myself as being a reality check at times. Obviously. And the craziness has to be pointed out at times b/c WE DO lose our perspectives at times when we are so close to the trees we cannot see the forest...
So you know, NO, I don't think you are pathetic or stupid. I DO want you to remember though, who did what and what is really happening here. Yes you made mistakes in the Marriage. We all GET that....YOU GET IT....so that's what matters.
But there are going to be times when you need to tell your H that his take on things is just too off base, too self serving, to let it pass. I felt that this was one of those times. Sure, protect the R with the kids to a point - I mean I would not support you lying for him...but saying nothing about ow, yeah I'm fine with that. If he continues with OW and they ask you I'd say "ask your dad" - but other than that, yes, I'd leave it alone. STILL, for HIM to complain and not own any of this, was Just TOO CRAZY for me.
Sometimes, you gotta call them on it when their view point is sooo offffff, and you can do it gently or with humor or very briefly. But you need to do it now and then and say, "let me get this straight--h, you are complaining to ME about....." (honestly, I DID think it was so crazy that it was funny...but yeah, if I were you, it'd take a bit longer to see the humor in this....yeah, like a lot longer....)
But if you say something, do it and then let it go. & He needs to learn to shut up too. He created most of this situation, and that is NOT YOUR responsibility, and I think I see some enabling going on here. How much does it help HIM to have you enable him to stay mired in his muck and not work anything out on his own? I don't know the answer to that, but it's worth asking.
The great news is that your d's also see work on the M going on, at least at your end and they know he has issues... so there won't be total shock if things don't improve fast, or ever. Seems the worst things for kids is when the parents hide it ALL until it is a fait accompli and then the kids think their world view has been so off for years that they no longer trust their judgement on anything.
Good luck
(( j ))
Woke up after dream that I was watching H marry OW. I felt weird but not hugely upset. Feel calm today. Kind of detached, so maybe things are sinking in from all the threads I've read and advice I've been given. I hope this lasts. I feel like I just need patience and detachment/no expectations and I can get through this.
KJ, Our situations and current thinking/feelings seem similar. I'm getting a lot out of 25mlc's responses.
Bpretty
I feel like I just need patience and detachment/no expectations and I can get through this.
Funny that's how I feel too. : )
You can do this.
Thanks Jack! Nice to hear from you. So my husband emailed me today to let me know we have a sprinkler system pipe leaking in the back yard! He had just turned on the system before we lucky people in colorado got our late winter snow(more headed here this weekend!).
I called to see if he got the pipes turned off/if there was water damage-so far all OK. He was very "up" and talkative. He thanked me for 'hiding' my books-he must've been in our bedroom. He thanked me for telling him (although belatedly) that our daughter had overheard me talking about my H liking someone else and that's why he was questionning his feelings for me. We talked a bit about shuttling the kids to various activitied this weekend and I said I didn't want to intrude if he had plans(he said he didn't!-so maybe he's cooled off w/OW-who knows-whatever-! :-)). I said I hope he has a good afternnon-I was eating lunch at work and he said "Oh" w/ a somewhat surprised tone...I'm still distancing and won't contact him unless he initiates...
It certainly feels better having no expectations-so much calmer emotionally for me!
I honestly cannot see a downside to having zero expectations of him at this point (other than treating you with respect in front of the kids). Expect NOTHING else from him. Someday, if nothing happens, it won't be enough for you and you'll move on. Or something will happen, and we'll cross that bridge when you get to it.
So zone out from him, begin to GAL, be that woman we spoke of and take care of yourself...
(( j ))
PS
stop worrying about what it means re: OW, if he has a day or evening available. Expect nothing, ASSUME NOTHING....who cares? WHY THINK OF THEM AT ALL EVER?
what good can that do you to think about them in any positive light? ("Gee, bet they're having GREAT sex with endless climaxes and doing it over and over ALL WHILE MOCKING ME....yeah, sure, that's realistic AND does THAT feel good to you to think that way? Nope, thought NOT). Anything good coming from those thought patterns??
so, assume nothing...fill your mind with OTHER thoughts and GAL and your kids and you job and YOUR STUFF...
((( j )))
Haven't done so good about distancing b/c H will email me about something to do with kids schedules this weekend(they are so busy!) then I respond, then he does...I did see him at lunch today b/c I had to get the groceeries before the blizzard hits tonight. He had printed out his business checking records b/c he thought I'd want to see them(which I had, but it was nice he did it without my asking). It seems in a small way he's trying to rebuild trust..maybe.. He hasn't mentionned if he's continuing A...I get a sense that this week he didn't see her much if at all... but who knows.
He's still a bit distant himself and I find myself wanting to pursue(DARNIT!) but I am trying my best to remain distant too. I'm on-call this weekend working a bit so hopefully that and the weather will keep me preoccupied. I was doing so good for two whole days-distant/no expectations..its amazing how easily you can fall back into bad habits/behaviors... Reading an interesting book- The Ten Second Miracle- anyone heard of it?
K
You are doing great
everyday that you can work on you
and keep expectations low and let H go is a great day
we are learning many new behaviors through this
and we willreap the rewards of growth and deeper understanding through it
It was nice that your H wanted you to see the business records
sometimes I see my H trying to do little things involving money and our business..to show me he is trustworthy
But since my XH blew our business into the ground and I am still paying catchup..I can not trust him although I take his trying to do the right thing as a good thing for his growth
peace
Peace-
I think I'm still pretty weak and somewhat obesessed periodically with the OW/A. I texted H tonight to see if storm had hit his area of town yet and got no response. He'd been texing D13 not long before..Makes me think he's with the OW and I'm realy tempted to find out if my worst fears are correct. Kind of torn right now. I realized the business account he showed me doesn't tell me much-its his business credit card that he was using for OW... I want to be strong and distant, but my hopes did lighten a little over the last two days of pleasant interacting. I know its a rollercoaster and I should expect coldness/distance soon...this really sucks doesn't it!? I don't know how everyone has been so strong for months and years when I'm ready to tear my hair out after 3 months.
Is it worse in the beginning when you are absorbing all of this rewriting of history and "i've never loved you" stuff and reeling from the "bombs"?
Peace-
I think I'm still pretty weak and somewhat obesessed periodically with the OW/A.I don't know how everyone has been so strong for months and years when I'm ready to tear my hair out after 3 months.
Is it worse in the beginning when you are absorbing all of this rewriting of history and "i've never loved you" stuff and reeling from the "bombs"?
KJ,
You're judging yourself too harshly. Let yourself be human. You mentioned the natural emotional response to this type of crisis in the books you read. You're not going to go from crisis to acceptance, just like that.
Let yourself be imperfect, human, and emotional. You have control over the self-critical, judging piece. You're adding to your own suffering.
Be patient with yourself. It takes time and practice to be skilled at dealing with this type of problem.
You're taking steps in the right direction. You're practicing new skllls, behaviors and concepts at this time. You will become more skilled at this.
CL
K
CL is right on
It is definitely so much Harder in the start of this
all this new information
after 2 years of this, I didint know about OW..my choice- I didnt snoop..but I suspected
but
it still hurt so much when I fopund out H was living with her foe 1.8 months and the A srarted while H was still homwe and sleeping with me
Its painful
but now it is easier..we LBS are resilent and you will be ok
you are string and smart
I totally unsersatnd how hard it is to be distant also
and I chose to not be distant for the first year and only when dim sporactically till a few months ago
I neede to keep the connection for me
I dont know if it is right to do according to DB and eavh person has to choose
just from experience , the crises has to ride out and it takes amny years even for those mlcers who seem to reconect with spouse they are struggling recommitting after 2-3 years
so plan on a while here
make your life as it would be without M
start over
new hoobies, new friends, new clothes
better R with kids, therapy learn to dance
practice giving H space..no presuure- validate him
meditate -trust God
peace
Thanks for the words of encouragement! I definitely can use them. My H's friend(he and his family were close friends of ours for several years) left me a message to call him. He hadn't seen my H in about a month and wanted to know how things were going before he saw H. He knows the OW-as they all work out at the same place and he filled in a few details for me. I guess the Ow has only been divorced for a year or so. She is obsessed with working out, wears skimpy outfits, fake boobs, big tattoo(no judgement-just facts)-totally what I would suppose my"teenage" H would be attracted to-so not like me.
I guess this OW had approached both my H and our friend about working out together...Obviously she(and my H) crossed the line/wall of marriage. Our friend thinks my H actually may see a future with the OW(news to me)but they have had some fights and when they fight she scares my H...Their politics are completely at odds as are their parenting values. I found out more details that my H shared with our friend so that I know my H is still giving me only half truths. I believe he is still working out at the expensive gym (that I think she must belong to-although when questionned he denies) even though he stopped his membership(couldn't afford it). Says they had an open house last weekend..but was on their website a few days ago.
So my anger is up. I feel that my boundary about lying is solid. I really don't have much to say to H as long as he lies to me. I really don't want him as my H if he continues to lie. I love him dearly but he so messed up at this point, and the OW with her own agenda seems to just be worsening/lengthening the process he's going through.
I think I understand that the lying and secretiveness(as well as the A) is part of the "teenage" thing MLCers go through, but is it in the Depression phase or the Replay stage,both or all stages??
If a person is depressed before they start a full-blown MLC-does that change the stages they go through? Just trying to wrap my head around the process so I can understand and remain distant.
I am focused on me. I'm working out, reading, journaling, going to bookclub. I plan to take a few cooking classes and maybe some yoga. At some point I think I'll start separating our assets, but don't want to hit him when he is down so to speak..so I'm willing to let more time pass to see where we are.
Its hard to see someone you love and have loved for almost half your life make such a mess of their and your family's lives.
Its hard to see them struggle and learn through making the stupidest choices you can imagine as their only way to learn. I've always had a hard time letting go/saying goodbye and this is the ultimate test for me.
My H was supposed to go with me on a work conference trip over Mother's day weekend(tickets he bought for he and OW were changed to me and H)-not sure if he will-we haven't talked about it. We are also supposed to go to a group communication class for 6 weeks starting 4/21-he hasn't mentionned that either.
I plan to remain as dim as I can for the next few weeks...
Any thoughts or helpful ideas?
i wish i could offer some advice. i have been at this 2 1/2 years and we are at a critical point and it is just too hard to make the final break and say goodbye. i know how u feel. i dont know when its enough and if i say im done, i dont know how to really mean it. sorry i cant be more help.
OK more news from our mutual friend mentionned above. My H told him he was pretty sure of his decision (D-ing me). He mentionned that tere is a 60 or 90 da window after you file where nothing happens-anyone know about this-is this a good thing? He asked if he could bring the OW on a camping trip to Moab with his faily that my H had been invited to(they said no-what is he thinking-we are married, our friend's kids will be there!!) H told both the friend and I that he had asked our girls if they wanted to go and they weren't too interested(he never mentionned Moab to the girls!).
Is it normal for the MLCer to create a web of lies for no reason?
Do they create their own warped reality and actually believe it?
Here's my [tentative]plan-please advise any and all:
I'm going to ask H to separate our bank accounts with me on Monday(goodbye savings-at least his portion!)
I'm going to ask that he works from his apartment-not our home.
I'm going to box up any belongings he's left here-so he can have them.
I will start separating our other accounts(put the electricity in my name/netflix etc)
Do you think this is too strong a move? Will it backfire and make him more attached to the OW? Is he still waffling and the D talk (to his friend-still no mention at all to me)is just a waffle and he'll change back soon? When do you know to take all of this seriously?
He still hasn't told his parents that we are separated. His OW recently divorced and I'm pretty sure she's giving him info on how to do it and what to expect...
K
Each mlcer is somewhat the same and a little different
Many of them say they want a D and never file
Mine said our M was over but htere was no need to D
I tole him to file after 18 months of this
he filed
they think M is over..they all believe that
I think a lot of them think the OW is their soulmate or someone significant atleast in the begiining
most of these A do not last..some do but most do not
still the mlcwer may not return after A is over
I think they waffle, but the pull is so strong into the tunnel and away from us, they have to go
they Lie all the time
my lied and continues to lie ablout evertything
he lies to kids too
he used to have more integrity before MLC
I think seperating the assets is a good idea
do hatever to protect yourself
they are very secretive about OW
Mine LIed about her for 20 months or so till I found an aprtment lease and credit card statements
They do create their own realilty ..they change History
If I confront my H
He would say, it wasnt an affair
they M was over long ago
we went to therapy for many years
this is how he changed history
I finally boxed up all his clothes..It is in garage
he still has not taken them
when he moved out, he put some clothes in white plastic bags
he never took anything else from the house
except for a few pictures of kids
I believe MLC is a form of mental illness
peace
I have definitely witnessed the scripted "rewriting of history", lying, justifying, and lying to friends about me to justify WAS position.
W is still waiting for OM to leave his W, so God only knows how long that process will take. I also agree that WAS may not return after A because they've rewritten reality as they know it.
In my situation, I chose to move out to an apartment so that WAS could come back to house from a hotel. This gave me a chance to re-establish my own independence. Two things I've observed: (1) I packed up and moved all of my belongings to storage, but most of my clothes I chose to no longer wear, buying new clothes that I picked out myself; (2) W emptied the house of all photos, bought a bunch of new clothes for herself, and repainted the master bedroom.
I've heard before that following a breakup women do things like cut their hair as a symbolic breaking ties gesture for themselves. I think my W's actions with the house are similar. Thoughts?
Hi AzDad,
Well my H didn't do any dramatic changes before or after leaving that were physical. He has lost weight(and doens't have any to lose)-not sure if its from grief, depression or the fact that his OW is an exercise fantatic. I don't think my H follows all of the typical MLC behavior-he is very careful with our money, although he did spend alot out of his business. But he is frugal.
As I've been processing things here at home, I have moved pictures around and furniture just a bit. I have bought new clothes,mostly b/c all of my old ones became too big(I've lost 18 lbs in 3 mos. through not eating/grief and starting to exercise more regularly). I am trying to keep up my appearance, but no dramatic change.
Sounds like your wife may be trying to change her persona via appearance. Did she feel stuck in a rut prior to this? If she is truly in a MLC then the appearance change would make sense-going through a "teenage" period where you try out diffferent looks/behaviors...
So H sent me a long heart-felt email. Sorry for all the difficulty the last few months. Says he doesn't feel comfortable in our home, doesn't feel he belongs in our home. He is actively looking for another place tolive once his lease for the apartment is up in July. He doesn't know how to talk to me anymore. He's not proud of his behaviors but not ashamed of his feelngs. Doesn't feel like talking directly today-just via email.
I don't know if this is a backslide-since I feel if he makes the effort to dialogue I should reciprocate. I can distance after..I do feel the empathy/caring for him seeing him suffer and I do feel it sucking me back in, but I am remaining calm and distant so far.
I emailed him lots of "i feel" and "I think" statements. Just stated my boundary about needing honesty to maintain friendship. Telling him I didn't think I could be his friend when he is with the OW, as he won't be honest with me then..I stated I could listen without judgement. I shared my opinion that the detachment he feels, the barriers he's put up between us are the cause of him not being comfortable in our home. If there was openness he'd feel at home here. I think I shared everything very calmly with good, non-blaming words, took responsibility for my part in getting us whre we are..Will probably be the last full-blown sharing for awhile...
He didn't mention OW in his email, but I think I know more than he's shared...I doubt he'll be able to open up with me, but it was worth one last shot.
My WAW lost several pounds also. It is stressful for both parties, although my case and my understanding is that the LBS loses the most weight. I, too, have been shopping for new clothes that fit better --- it feels great, actually. :-)
Losing the weight is one small plus in this crappy situation! Getting stronger and more fit does feel good. My H, who complained I wasn't active enough-he wanted an active lifestyle(and his OW is a triathlete), stopped working out for most of the last 3 months. He seems to be picking up though which is why I think the A still continues.
Hey K, I think next time you need to keep it short and do not talk about your R. You have told him before that you cant be his friend if he is with ow, so now you dont need to say it again, ok?
When you are in contact with him, and it really should only be for emergencies, try to validate his feelings. He is not hearing you when you explain things like his feeling barriers.
Remember to take care of you. Move forward with your life.
Hang in there.
They do not hear us
only intio themselves now\If he shares with you again via email
you can simply mirror back what he said
I hear you are not comfortable here
ect...
thanks for being open with your feelings ect..I appreciate your honesty and apology
remember this is not a real R anymore..he will not hear you
the weight ios a plus
just make sure you are eating a drinking water
take care of you
peace
H texted me late last night. He let me know he had gone to a movie w/OW-which I texted back that I appreciated (b/c he's not keeping it secret.) He said he didn't think he wanted to make a life with OW. He said my email hurt him. When I talked to him(b/c my texting is slow and I was asleep)- he said he'd read email fast and thought I was using loaded words(hiding, lies)..I did make a big effort to use "I feel" statements which I let him know. he said he'd re-read it in the AM. He says he feels like the only one to take care of him is himself and so he's trying to pull himself up by his bootstraps and take care of himself(hence the looking for bigger apartment so he can have our girls stay over)
He can't see a future for us with all the hurt these past few months, but he agrees that he is conflicted.
He is open to talking today at lunch. I think I'll do as you suggest BG and be upbeat, no R talk frm me-if he initiates I'll do active listening and validation.
Ok advice needed:..Is this the MLC stage of replay possible changing to withdrawal?
Since a big issue in his email was him not feeling comfortable in our home, not seeing it as our home anymore, I'm wondering if he was trying to..I hope he talks this over with his therapist, as I truly feel its an issue with him, and nothing the rest of us are doing.
Input greatly appreciated!
Ok advice needed:..Is this the MLC stage of replay possible changing to withdrawal?
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM!!!
I just shot the stages down. : ) That's my advice. The stages will screw you up, it is what it is. The stages bounce, and bounce and bounce and it doesn't matter what stage they are in until the end. It only matters in how you deal with them, "could it be that he is entering"...yes. He could get a coke on the way home tonight too. : )
He can't see a future for us with all the hurt these past few months,
Whenever they say this stuff I always think that they say it because THEY couldn't do it in your shoes. That they are convince we are unable to forgive. And that is why I say if you cannot forgive them then don't bother DBing. If you can do this, you have to make him understand that YOU are capable ogf getting past the this, but that it will take work on both your parts. It won't be easy but it is unfair him him to assume that you are unable to this because he doesn't think you can. : )
THANK YOU JACK!
Haven't gone home for lunch yet. Have been reading ImLin's thread, trying keep strength to NOT bring up the zillion questions, not bring up one. I am determined to LISTEN if he decides to talk. To validate.
I think if he brings up separating bank accounts that is what we should do. I think to him it means the beginning of the end and it is my guess that he thinks its the prelude to a divorce. As one of my friends put it-it is probably the easiest part of separating to do, and easiest to reverse-no harm trying...
He still hasn't told his family about him moving out...
I have made it clear(many times) that I can forgive him and get passed stuff/A/OW and I know I can(or you're right, I wouldn't be here), so your take on why he feels the opposite makes sense.
If you have advice on this situation please chime in...
I am going to a conference in San diego over mother's day weekend. When my H originally bought himself and the OW tickets for a San diego trip in 2/09. Then I discovered this and confrotned him-he admitted to A. He broke up with OW 2 days later after nervous breakdown(didn't go on trip with her).. He switched tickets to his and my names for my conference dates(we planned to stay 2 extra days for some fun)5/7 to 5/11.
Well, tickets are still good, hotel reservations made. I'm going with or without him, although i would like to come back early if its without him so I can be with my girls on Mother's day and not in a big city by myself..I haven't brought up trip in quite awhile and H has since rekindled his A with OW(although said last night no future seen with her)..
So my questions is should I bring it up, if so, when-last minute?..What scenario would be most likely get a positive response, how should I bring it up, what framing should I use?? Any thoughts jack or anyone else out there?
He still hasn't told his family about him moving out...
A good sign.
Don't ask why, figure it out : )
As for your question.
Just remind him that your going on the trip, as for when?
I am not that cunning. : ) Whenever you feel it is a good time...just not as you're headed toward the airport.
HaHa!! No I think I would want to give a little more notice so I could come back earlier if possible...As adventurous as I'd like to be -the thought of Mother's Day in San Diego(never been there) by myself seems kind of sad and overwhelming.
I think him not telling his family is a good sign too. His parents are very judgmental, especially his Dad. He says he fears his day would yell at him and say "Get your house in order"...
So conversation this afternoon was OK. H brought up lots of different things-my actions/statements feel dichotomous and he can't resolve them. This feeling of his has merit because as I have been struggling with this situation, I have been waffling. When I feel angry or hurt(which I have expressed to H very infrequently) I have tended to lash out a bit those few times. Those episodes stick in his mind as me being mean. It makes him wonder if thats the true 'me'(after knowing me 20 years I would think he would know its not... but its his filter right now). So all newbies learn from my error and try not to waffle or lash out!
My H thinks he will be alone within a few months, without me or OW and he is trying to accept that(this he has stated is his worst fear-which makes me wonder if he isn't almost pursuing this scenario in some unconscious way)...
H thinks we've lived our whole marriage walking on eggshells around each other and that's what we'll always do.
H thinks that he has alot of anger and there are other parts of him I don't want to know, so he can never be himself around me.
I shared that I have seen and can handle the anger, I'm not sure what the other parts he's talking about are..
He was exrememly physically uncomfortable and agitated our whole lunch even though I was very calm and did active listening and validation.I don't think I brought up things unless h did first..
This conversation made me realize quite effectively what others have said about "alien abduction" in the sense that their spouses are dramatically different from their "norm". Also brings to mind that even though my H is clinically depressed, this MLC stuff really feels like an illness, something these spouses can't really help, in way, not to take away their responsibility..
H indicated that it would be nice to feel comfortable in the house, to not expect arguments/fights(again his perception is totally the opposite of mine-we have many calm discussions but H sees them as all fights), would like to believe I can forgive him and move passed the last 4 months, but doesn't believe I can.
So any thought on how, or even if, one can convey their decision to forgive-and be believed (besides the obvious-consistent behavior)? Do you think he or other MLCers perceive being forgiven as not bringing up the past and ignoring it(b/c I don't see how you can forgive without at least some discussion and creation of a joint reality of the past events.-this is the idea in book: After the Afffair...)?
Just wondering how successful LBS showed forgiveness, how their MLC spouses knew they were forgiven...
This may be premature for my situation as H still sees OW, as far as I know...
Ok so more processing going on my head.
Because I've read so many books with different takes on getting past affairs and such I think I've had a hard time reconciling all the expert advice.
Here's what I've begun to understand (Aha moment!)-let me know if I'm wrong..
Even though many of us are dealing with OP and A in our spouses lives, because the animal we're dealing with is MLC, we aren't necessarily best served by the traditional expert advice( discussing/sharing feelings/working thru the affair-creating a joint 'story)..maybe this works in piecing once the spouse comes home, but I 'm not up on that part of the process yet...
So we do the DB method of distancing, doing 180's, NOT talking about the A/OP..b/c doing the traditional pushes the MLCer away.
I think I've kept being sucked into my H seeming to be normal and reasonable and I'd switch to the traditional methods. I think b/c of today, my husband seeming truly 'different'/alien that it is MLC I'm dealing with and I just need to deal with all the hurt/suspicion/grief/forgiveness on my own, by myself.
Is that a correct take on this MLC animal?-seems like I thought I had it, but didn't really until now.
So we do the DB method of distancing, doing 180's, NOT talking about the A/OP..b/c doing the traditional pushes the MLCer away.
I think I've kept being sucked into my H seeming to be normal and reasonable and I'd switch to the traditional methods. I think b/c of today, my husband seeming truly 'different'/alien that it is MLC I'm dealing with and I just need to deal with all the hurt/suspicion/grief/forgiveness on my own, by myself.
Is that a correct take on this MLC animal?-seems like I thought I had it, but didn't really until now.
KJ,
I would agree with your opinion, that we can't think of our spouse as a healthy, functioning adult at this time. I think of DB in some ways like Al-Anon, which helps spouses of alcoholics to cope. We have to learn to adjust our boundaries to allow the spouse to face and work thru their issues, but also not allow their poor choices to harm us.
I heard a quote from my audio podcast "Awakening
Through Conflict" with Tara Brach. The quote was from a poet, that we must learn to tolerate the weak and the strong, because each of us will be that person at some point in our lives. I think of my W as weak, but trying to find her voice and strength, thru a combination of misguided and healthy ways.
The work at this stage for the LBS is the establishment of healthy boundaries, yet holding onto compassion. It's compassion from a distance, rather than in partnership, as we would prefer.
I think you're on the right track.
CL
K
I would also agree
The mlcer has a form of mental illness at this time
MY H has been in it for 2 years plus as I look back-
He is still alien
still very different from who he was
My brother ( who works with us and confronted H about steeeling money) told H you used to be a Choir boy--you aint one any more
so even my brother can see the difference
I like alanon concepts too..it is very similar to DB
detaching..living your life..as the alcolholic continues to drink
similar
you are definitely on the right track
continue to move forward and validate from a compassionate distance
there is nothing else you can do
they get worse...before better
peace
Thanks CL and Peace.
Last night my H and I worked together to paint my D13's bedroom. It actually was nice. H even joked a bit about his perfectionistic tendencies, sang a little(always a good sign). He hugged me goodbye.
This morning I saw in his office that he'd printed my email and underlined all of the 'I feel' statements(he had more in his email than me), and had noted things that made him upset..He hasn't mentionned this to me and I certainly won't mention I've seen it. At least he read it again-and missed all of the caring words and concern...doesn't matter anyway.
Staying as upbeat as I can. I'm tired today-not sleeping well.
I guess I'll go home for lunch and H never did tell me what he wanted to do about seeing me at lunch...
Been trying to keep track of small changes that may be happening ..
Haven't been distancing(avoiding him), but haven't initiated up conversations/texts/emails. I have been upbeat and 'happy'(as much as possible), acting "as if" things are normal and good.
On Tuesday and today, went home for lunch and ate with H and took a walk in the neigborhood. I kept things "light" and listened mostly. Yesterday H expressed sadness that the apartments he can afford are falling apart/not fit for living..He hasn't sent out resumes b/c he doesn't feel he can get a job with the current financial market(he is so good at what he does and enjoys it, if he would keep at it I think his business would continue to grow-all of his new clients are referrals from current/previous clients). My only backsliding kind of statement was that "if in a few months things were better he could move back home, but I didn't know if he'd be ready and that was OK."
H hasn't brought up anything about further separating so I haven't either...
H seems happier/calmer last few days, not as uncomfortable in our home.
Today we saw a house in the part of our neighborhood we've always liked, and he checked out the listing. I said I could see moving to a nearby town and going smaller not larger, he agreed but wouldn't want to fix up a house, would want to buy already remodeled/updated. I guess I saw it as a positive that he might even be able to imagine still living with me in future or be comfortable talking about homes with me(maybe that's not what he was thinking-I don't know).
Also the fact that he put money in our joint account recently from his business(first time since he moved), was a big change. I would think he'd keep all his business money for himself b/c he'll need it to keep living on his own.
he also called me last night to say he wouldn't be over early in AM and would miss seeing me before I left for work b/c he was exhausted from meeting and was just getting home at 10:30pm. He didn't need to call, so I took that as a thoughtful gesture. Maybe I'm reading more into things..its all i got for now.
H said he'd like to set a time to finish painting D's room, we planned for Sat AM since kids are gone most of day. It was nice he iniated-although its OW's weekend for her kids so maybe he'd trying to fill the void...
Its hard not to get my hopes up, but I'm trying not to..I know he is early into this journey but maybe with antidepressants and therapy getting started early he'll come out sooner?
I am finding that working on emotionally detaching is helping me tremendously. I do feel less swayed by H's neutral feeling towards me...Still want to be close all of the time, but holding back...just my loneliness speaking to me...
I'm thinking of staying at work for lunch tomorrow, so we'll see what occurs..
So today broke the streak of two good days in a row.
H left me a message on my cell last night saying he left before I got home since when the girls came home they went upstairs to watch TV(not their perception, just his) so he went home. He said I should call if I wanted. It was a thoughtful gesture to let me know why he'd left. Of course I didn't get the message for hours and then I didn't call b/c it was late.
This morning H was coming in as I was leaving and I thanked him for his call last night and said I appreciated it. He was friendly and I said I'd see him at lunch.
Just back from lunch and things were OK at the start. H complimented me on the stew I'd made, complimented the sweater I was wearing. We talked about his continued lack of sleep(since A started he sleeps maybe 4-5 hours a night). I said maybe it was time to try something different and when he asked "What?" I said "Sex" and smiled..(used to work) but he said it wasn't funny- I shrugged it off.
H was gently ranting about how he doesn't like our neighbors-they never do yard work, yard work never ends...I just listened and validated. I asked him if he'd done more apartment searching-he hasn't but feels he needs to. Feels if he doesn't get a bigger place, he'll never see the girls(he sees them now and frankly, they don't want to be splitting their time between two homes). he said he didn't want to move a bunch of times and in his conversation still said something about if he moved back home...(guess its still a possibility)
He escaped to his office and I just stood outside listening to him talk. I asked why he didn't pay for groceries out of our joint account(like usual)-he said he was trying to be more independent and this was important to him. I asked how his business $ was and he said "Good." He reminded me that he'd showed me his checking account report and I said I remember and appreciated him showing me it (AND HERE IS WHERE I DROPPED THE BALL!) but I had been interested in his business credit card report.(b/c that is how he pays for stuff with the OW) OH the defenses went up the anger was palpable, the trigger had been flipped! He said his usual " I give you something then you turn around and ask for more-it never ends"...He got on the computer and said "Here I'll show it to you" and I said "No, I don't want to see it"..and I got up to leave. My last words were "H, I don't care about the money. I care about YOU!" I repeated it then scooted out of there.
The thing is-I realize now I really do care less and less about his hiding things, I think I'm beginning to detach a bit more. It does bother me about him still seeing OW and worries me that he is having unprotected sex(if he is as I assume)because of disease.
Side note: I had the embarassing task of emailing my doctor to see if I could get tested for STDs, HIV etc since H slept with me after having unprotected sex with OW-no fun!...
But, the compulsive need I had to snoop has dissipated. I'm tired of the lying and hiding and secrecy. I'm done with that game. At this point I'm waiting to see consistency in his actions-after his eruption today I wonder how far the setback will be...
Anyone have advice or thoughts?
A wise man once told me that a mistake is only a mistake if you know it's the wrong thing to do and you continue to do it. Learn from it and don't do it again. A lot of this is trial and error. What works for one does not necessarily work for the next. Stay upbeat and friendly to your h and continue to do what works.
Thanks DM,
I agree Upbeat and Friendly is the way to go! And learn from past mistakes...
Well more drama-it certainly is a full moon-I should've known better than to go home for lunch!
So I emailed my H whha I thought was a loving, caring email in which I shared with him that I didn't care about knowing stuff before he was ready to share. I again appreciated the good days we'd recently had and hoped we wouldn't have too much set back with todays' disruption....
the Gods weren't smiling...
While I was emailing him, he had already emailed me...So he thought my email was in response to his email and took it totally as a nastygram...my sentence: "Honestly I had been curious and did want to see it(the credit card report), but it really doesn't matter to me at this point-and that was a revelation to me sitting in your office-it really does not matter to me anymore. I have no desire to find out information on my own... The important thing to me is that I want to hear from you whatever you want to share, when you want to, if you want to. To me, whatever I learn is more valuable coming from you through your perspective."
So besides the order of emails being different for both of us(and therefore the context of what was said), my H took my highlighted sentence to mean that I didn't care about him anymore, that I was done...
So his last email ended with this "Given that things do not matter to you anymore, I would like to split up our bank accounts. That way, if I need extra money to live, I won't feel guilty about spending "your" money."
OY VAY!!!! This could be the plot of a dramedy about miscommunication..!
I did later talk to my H and it began as a very heated exchange from him, with alot of remorse and confusion from me(b/c I just now figured out the order of emails was different for both of us)..I did some active listening and validation and things calmed. He still plans to move his office and separate our accounts. He realizes that this limbo he's created isn't good and creates problems. As hard as it is to hear that(b/c it feels like more steps away from me), I think it might be needed(for him). So I'm trying to remain upbeat and remember all things like this can be reversed. There has been no mention of legal separation or divorce in months.
H said I should text him tonight if I want...
One thing H said in his first email to me(the one he thought I was responding to..) was:"I have felt for some time that I had "little to lose" any more when it comes to our relationship. I think, in part, that is why I started talking with OW again. With the exchange at my desk today, I felt like that sense of little to lose was being reinforced".
So anyone else hear of this feeling "little to lose" b/c in the past H has said he has 'more to lose' than I.. Just wondered if it was part of the MLC mindframe..
I think I am learning. Not to engage if at all possible, to detach(a word my H sees as negatively loaded)..to reinforce the positive. Just have to be better at emails so they can't get so misunderstood!
I think I am learning. Not to engage if at all possible, to detach(a word my H sees as negatively loaded)..to reinforce the positive. Just have to be better at emails so they can't get so misunderstood!
Pretty sure you are learning...sucks when you have to learn the hard way huh? But those lessons usually last longer.
I refused to talk with my wife in emails, becuase things could be taken out of context too easily. At least about the feelings stuff.
Direct and to the point emails...fine.
"I will pick up boys at 6 pm. B will have your credit card bill with him. Change the address to your address."
It does suck learning this way. I do think my sense of humor is returning a bit though..I really do think today's emails were a comedy of errors...
Frustrating when conversations go awry-because of one ill-thought out statement...then emails b/c H's filter is strong to weed out all of the good stuff(at least he admitted that might have happened today), and texting I'm so new at-I stink...
Good point on emails...I always thought I did better in writing, but it seems NOT to be the case :-)
Oh well. Not sure if I should see H at lunch tomorrow-he has therapy in AM...I'm sure his mind will be awhirling afterwards..
Thanks for checking in Jack- I do value your experience and cutting-to-the-heart-of-the-matter perspective.
Hi kjensen,
I read through your thread today and I though I'm not in any position to give advice, I think it's much easier to see what's going on from an objective point of view (someone else's situation - not mine)...
I think your H is starting to go through what my H had gone through, and now seeing it from hindsight, I wish I had done things differently. When your H asked your mutual friend if he could go camping and bring OW, stating that his own kids weren't interested in going, that is a big sign. My H did similar things. He would tell his family that our D wasn't interested in coming to this or that, when in fact, he never even invited her.
You were also lucky in that you had a mutual friend tell you what your H's plans or thoughts were about what he wants to do - that he sees a future with OW.
With this information from your mutual friend and behavior (camping), I'm worried what more he will do... My H had done so much damage to our family and I would hate to see you go through what I had. If I had a chance to do things over, I think I would do as 25yearsmlc had stated. It would save you a lot of pain and heartache. I know that it seems harsh and maybe you can't see having to take such drastic measures, but maybe taking the stance she had suggested would not be a bad idea. It would give him less time to get his things in order, less time for him to get himself set-up to be able to leave completely when he's good and ready. It seems that MLCers lie so much that it becomes second nature. It seems they really don't care about anyone but themselves. If you H is not sharing with you, the things you already know, then maybe he's compartmentalizing his life (living a dual life), having different "realities" depending on who he is talking to... Almost like how we give only certain information of our lives to friends at work, yet we're still "friends"...
I may be wrong, but maybe you should re-read 25yearsmlc's posts.
Take care, and thanks for posting on my thread and advising me...
Thanks TH. I really don't think H is planning a future with the OW. He told me as much in a text(I know I can't always believe him) and from what I know about her-they really have the being active thing in common, but if she is scary when she is angry and have already had some fights...I don't think its meant to last..
When my H realizes he has everything to lose and not a "little to lose" I think things will turn. Not sure when that will happen, but we will see.
Saw H briefly this morning as I left. He slept better last night(which is GOOD-sleep deprivation makes everything worse!)
Had a nice hug. Things felt OK.
My Plan:
-Always be working on staying detached and emotionally healthy-no rescuing behavior.
-Low or no expectations, keep hopes in check.
-Be pleasant and upbeat.
-Listen more than I speak. Use Active listening/validation as needed.
-No R/A/OW talk(this I have been doing well until yesterday-then just about R)
-Show H through actions and NOT words, that I am forgiving and NOT judging him.
-Do things for me and spend wuality time with my girls.
Its hard when H perceives everyone he knows as being a judge and jury on his behavior-he transfers a LOT of stuff onto everyone around him. Don't know how/when this transferrence thing dissipates. I think once he sees he's projecting his feelings and their not coming from the outside, things can improve, because then I (and his friends who care deeply for him) won't be the enemy.. Anyone go through this projection/transferrence stuff with a spouse?
Good Morning K!
How do you plan on showing that you are forgiving and not judging through your actions? I have told my wife this but I struggle with how to show her.
Good Morning,
Early in this I made a list of things that I would like in a relationship. Each night I would go through a mental check-list to make sure I gave what I wanted.
Honesty
Integrity
Love
Honor
Thoughtfulness
Trust
Friendship
Etc........
Has to be YOUR list......
But I would show those things to her everyday...
At some point....you have to BE the change you want to see in them....
Results will vary..not valid in some states....
Good Morning,
Early in this I made a list of things that I would like in a relationship. Each night I would go through a mental check-list to make sure I gave what I wanted.
Honesty
Integrity
Love
Honor
Thoughtfulness
Trust
Friendship
Etc........
Has to be YOUR list......
But I would show those things to her everyday...
At some point....you have to BE the change you want to see in them....
Results will vary..not valid in some states....
I agree with this advice. LMAO on the results will vary Mach!! I know mine certainly did. Even if it doesn't "pay off" with your h, it will "pay off" down the road for YOU.
Good Morning D, Mach and SoCo,
I hadn't figured out how to show forgiveness yet. I like Mach's list-definitely a good place to start.
I guess my thinking was: If I'm not talking about the R/A or OW, then most of our conversations are kept"light" as H would say.. Listening with an open heart and mind were primary actions I thought I should do daily, as the occasion arose.
I feel like in many ways I have been showing forgiveness by not asking questions, demanding to know anything...by being pleasant and not giving off a hurt/angry vibe.
I have definitely been supportive and appreciative of all of H's efforts regarding keeping contact with me. I've been supportive of his move out, starting antidepressants(he is usually anti- anthing to do with medication), starting therapy and helped him find his apartment(he hasn't included me in the quest for bigger space..)
I realize some of those actions bordered on rescuing, so I'm watching what I do and will most likely be supportive in words only in the future.
The obstacle I think will be the filter through which H currently sees the world and my actions. he truly is not in the same reality as me, at times. I don't know how my actions will change that but I guess I was hopeful with time, patience, consistency in word and action, antidepressants and therapy my H will come back to same reality we all reside in...
I did order a book today by Janis Abrams Springs that my therapist recommended...How can I Forgive you...hopefully some good ideas in there too.
Mach you are funny!
I hadn't figured out how to show forgiveness yet.
That has to come from inside of you....If YOU F-ed up, how would YOU want that shown to you ?
but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny
JK I love that movie !
but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny
JK I love that movie !
What's up good fella?
Mach-
Funny -in that you have a good (appreciated) sense of humor.
A sense of humor is invaluable during this craziness!
If YOU F-ed up, how would YOU want that shown to you ?
I would want someone to show me with love and physical affection!! but that's not what he wants ..
I know, I know, back to the drawing board...
I think H wants to have nothing brought up that would give him the slightest feeling that he wasn't respected or trusted. He is wired to respond at the slightest hint of judgement and distrust with full-blown anger(as a defense I believe)..the problem is...although I respect him(him, not necessarily his recent decision-making), I currently don't trust him and don't think I should necessarily as the lies big and small are still happening...
hey K
I know......I had always wanted to use that line.....LOL
Love and affection.....think about that and find a way to do that without saying it or getting too close for comfort for him.
Guilt is what is causing him to NOT want that from you. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as you are NOT the one giving it to him.
He will respond negatively to anything that he feels threatening to his actions. Don't push those buttons for him.
Trust has to be earned, and you have every right NOT to right now.
You are still really early in this, and the BEST way to get through it is to just take that look in the mirror and do the things that YOU need to do. Learn and read as much as you can, and understand WHAT is happening around you. Things will get brighter for you the more you let go and just do the things that affect you.
Anything else will be viewed as a ploy, and written off as not being real. Not what you want....
Make this about you and what you can do to be better. I always viewed this as a two for one special.....yes, he is going through some things with himself, but you get to as well. You get to look in the mirror and really do the things, and be the person that you always wanted to be. Devote that time to your children , and show them the "correct" way to deal with issues in their life. Not by running away from them.
Change is difficult to do, but not impossible....
Change is something that we generally view as unapproachable, but it really only is when we are TOLD that we have to. If WE initiate it ? Well then.....we are open to it.
Let change start with you, and good things will happen....Maybe not with your marriage, but with you.....
.......and YOU are worth saving.....Right ?
Peace.....M1
I am. Thanks. I think early in I have been doing a lot of work on myself b/c that is all that I had/have control over-so I GOT that part of the proces. I can see how H has been wary of the changes I've made within and on the outside. So I know consistency in action and purpose is important.
As "they" say..the only thing you can count on is change...
Mach-Thanks for the ideas/ input!
My Plan:
-Always be working on staying detached and emotionally healthy-no rescuing behavior.
-Low or no expectations, keep hopes in check.
-Be pleasant and upbeat.
-Listen more than I speak. Use Active listening/validation as needed.
-No R/A/OW talk(this I have been doing well until yesterday-then just about R)
-Show H through actions and NOT words, that I am forgiving and NOT judging him.
-Do things for me and spend wuality time with my girls.
These are great goals to strive for--a balance of compassion, friendliness, boundaries, and self-care.
CL
Thanks CL.
I hope you are feeling better, hope the antibiotics have kicked in!
Have a wonderful weekend!
OK. So I'm working on the detachment goals. Kids were gone all day at play rehearsal and a birthday party.
H and I had a pretty good day-spent 9:30am til 6pm pretty much together(except for my haircut appointment). Worked painting my D13's room (finally done!!!!). Did a few errands together and I took him out for dinner as a thank you for his help. Overall a good day. Some major flirting from me(which is where I need to improve my detachment skills)..
H says he just doesn't feel like sex. I did unfortunately let a zinger go..I said well, just not with me...He thought that was mean and I said it was just about me and how I feel, not him...
Anyway I joked if he found his libido he should just text me "Found it!"-he laughed..
Sadly H made some disparaging remarks about himself today(regarding being out-of-shape and not being able to afford to eat out) and I just let most go and once said "You need to say something positive about yourself everyday!-in a lighthearted voice. He didn't blow up which is good. He did note that he gets irritated very easily(which its true)-it was nice he could notice it himself. H also mentionned how he always thought of himself as a good communicator, but in his therapy yesterday his therapist pointed out how he wasn't as good as he thought(he gave no specifics) & this made him sad. Whenever he and I miscommunicate(wich he only thinks is an issue with me) I've always felt I was at fault. But maybe its not just me. He is going to go to the communication class with me for couples but says his expectation isn't to resolve any marital issues, but learn to communicate better.
Haven't brought up the San Diego trip- still waiting for more positivity and the right moment.
H gave me a hug goodbye and will come by tomorrow to help me hide eggs for the girls.
I hope everyone has a wonderful Easter tomorrow!
Happy Easter!
We're having a wet and gloomy Easter here...H came over to hide eggs, had breakfast as a family(which in retrospect was the best part of the day). D13 felt ill so I took her to the doctor-of course its just a virus...
H took a nap at our home while I had the girls at the doctor's..then he called his parents(still hasn't told them we're separated).
He and I had a nice lunch as both girls napped away the afternoon. I did ask if he'd thought at all about San Diego and he said he had. He wasn't sure how comfortable he was going. I said let me know what you decide b/c I'd rather come back early if I'm going alone, so I don't spend Mother's Day on my own, away from the girls. No big drama or uncomfortableness about San Diego-which is good. Reminded him we'd go just as friends.
H and talked more about separating bank accounts. He said talks like we've had the last couple of days are helpful. He gets overwhelmed with all the details of separating. I mentionned how I thought separating the bank accounts would be the easiest step and is reversible should he come back home-he agreed. Whenever he talks of Divorce(not often) its only as a possibility, not an absolute.
He is still uncomfortable at home, although sometimes he seems quite at home.. Is this from guilt? Is H having guilt a good sign in any way-sign that he's processing his behavior as a 'real' human being? Just wondering? I truly do nothing to make him feel guilty, I act as if we are fine as a couple..Any thoughts?
I behaved today-no flirting. It really has felt like a rather sad and disappointing day/holiday to me-maybe b/c of the weather, my D13 being ill, people being disconnected, no family atmosphere.
These are the moments I'm determined mentally to GAL. I'm thinking of being more absent/less available this week. This is the week (and next weekend) that OW doesn't have her kids and is therefore more available to my H. I find these weeks are harder for me to 'forget' about OW-b/c I suspect H is spending alot of time with her. He hasn't mentionned her since texting me he took her to a movie last Sunday. Not sure what this week holds.
Anyway. I did try to convey a warm and loving attitude today. Kept things light. H gave me a hug goodbye.
J
Happy Easter
I beleive they feel the guilt on their own
leaving their W
having an A
abandoning the kids
spending
the whole premise about DB-to not guilt them and they will feel it on their own
I would see it in my H facial expressions when he looked at his son 5 years old at that time..a son who was about to get partially abandoned and be raised without a father (except on his 2 hour visits every few days)
our spouses know what they have done is wrong--so guilt has to be a part of it
you seem like you are doing well
its best to not talk about OW( ignore it if he discusses her)change subject
the hurt will subside in timwe
do not discuss D either--change the subject if he brings it up
peace
Thanks Peace!
I never bring up OW-although thoughts about OW are often running in my head...
I never bring up D, but really my H doesn't either-more the logistics of separation.
I know I don't say things to make H feel bad or guilty unless its the unintentional(rare) zinger..
Had a pleasant text conversation with H tonight-said goodbye first.
I think my overall plan is to be the best friend I can to H without rescuing or mothering or all of that dysfnctional behavior I'm trying to leave behind.
I think being less available is the hardest for me since H still is working out of our home, until he can figure out how to move his business office.
I'm not pursuing, and I am giving H more space. I do invite H to eat with us on occasion so he can feel the sense of family, and the girls seem to enjoy those times.
My dilemma-I asked H to let me know if he planned to continue to see OW/continue the A. I had stated that I didn't feel I could be his friend if he continued A(my setting boundaries), as I didn't feel he would be honest with me. H has not given me and answer one way or the other, although he did take OW to a movie last weekend-
and told me.
So I would like opinions/thoughts from one and all...
Since I can't bring up OW/A(the one time I did to see if he'd made a decision he blew up and gave me no answer(which may mean he's continuing A), do I
A)continue the friendship without expectation....OR
B)should I assume(you know what that means!) A is continuing and distance without explanation(which might confuse him since we've been more friendly and spending tme together recently)?
KJ,
You're asking your H to have transparency regarding the OW? Is this something he's willing to do? I get the impression that he's defensive when you bring this issue up.
As you describe, you and your H do have some connection, and that is likely a positive.
I think you're at a crossroads here. You can either continue to pursue like a journalist trying to get information about the status of his A, or figure-out how much connection you're willing to keep, and live in mystery about that part of his life.
When you say that you would no longer be his friend if he continued A, what does that mean? What is your definition of a friend?
CL
Hi CL,
I wasn't asking for transparency about OW, just that since H restarted the A, and I discovered it on a hunch, I felt deceived(rightly so). I think 'the lying' part of the MLC hits me the hardest. Since I don't want to be lied to, I would rather not be a part of my H's life while he is lying and being dishonest about his relationship with the OW. I would rather take myself out of the equation.
To me, being a friend is being supportive, being honest, sharing the highs and lows and with respect to my H, not just sharing chitchat only..something a bit deeper.
I don't think what H and I have right now is truly a two-way friendship, more of a one-way(my effort, my support, my honesty)relationship. What I had tried to convey to H was that I couldn't be his friend(support, care, listen to his daily life) if he was seeing OW and continuing the A. I didn't need to know all about OW-just whether he planned to continue the A or not. I thought if he continued the A, and by removing myself from H's life as much as possible then the OW could take care of all his needs(and hopefully fail), and maybe he would miss me/our friendship.
I guess what I was asking in my earlier post was, where does my boundary stand, is it truly a boundary, if I don't have the information needed to stand by it? Maybe that means my boundary wasn't well-defined? I don't know. I just know emotionally I have a hard time thinking friendly thoughts, being friendly around my H, if I know he is sleeping with another woman while still married to me. I would feel like a doormat.
So..not knowing about the A...I guess I continue as is. Hope H continues to share periodically, be suspicious in my head all of the time..be hopeful in my heart.
Hey K, here are my thoughts. And as long as you continue to be his friend and be so available, he has the best of both worlds. He still gets to have his family life and his other life as well.
Dbing is first and foremost for us. Your h is on a journey that he needs to travel through alone.
You need to detach, GAL and try to have a PMA. I think you need to stop contacting h unless it is something urgent about your children. Be upbeat and positive when you are around him. Try not to call,email or text him. He needs to see how life is without you in it so give him a lot of space.
Try not to give him too much headspace. Detach and move forward with your life. Keep busy, find things to do that you like. It really doesnt matter if he is with ow now or not, ya know?
You are doing great!
Hi K. Hope you had a good Easter. The friendship thing is a balancing act. One where you need to find the right balance. For me, I want there to be enough of a connection so when she eventually comes out of the tunnel she feels safe with me and can trust me. But I don't want to be so available that it allows her to be a cake eater.
Hi CL,
To me, being a friend is being supportive, being honest, sharing the highs and lows and with respect to my H, not just sharing chitchat only..something a bit deeper.
I don't think what H and I have right now is truly a two-way friendship, more of a one-way(my effort, my support, my honesty)relationship. What I had tried to convey to H was that I couldn't be his friend(support, care, listen to his daily life) if he was seeing OW and continuing the A.
I just know emotionally I have a hard time thinking friendly thoughts, being friendly around my H, if I know he is sleeping with another woman while still married to me. I would feel like a doormat.
KJ,
I think you're struggling with the frustration of not being able to be your H's friend. This is something you would like, but as you say it's a one way street at this time, due to the honesty issue. You were hoping that your declaration of withdrawing friendship would influence him (a test?). It didn't work, and now you must speak with your actions.
You will need to work on acceptance of the current status of your M, and experiment with boundaries, until you find a connection-distance ratio that works for you.
The feelings you're describing are human. Compassion from a distance is the goal, but it takes mental work, realignment of boundaries, and self-care to get to that point.
CL
Hi everyone-
I think you all are saying be more unavailable, don't initiate contact, but find the right balance for H and I. Don't expect or count on friendship. Let go more.
I guess I thought I was headed this direction, but haven't found the right balance quite yet.
Told H this morning I wouldn't see him at lunch as I have errands to run. He came early this mroning before I could leave(that was my plan)...so I saw him briefly and it is friendly from my side-he's as friendly as he can be considering he's often a walking zombie/exhausted always.
Will try to be busy this week and avoid the house while H is there. Maybe I will see if he'll got to the bank and we can separate accounts, that will be one thing less connecting us.
Almost feels like, even though he left me, I'm now the one pushing him further out the door-as he is half in and half out. That feels weird to me, but I think I get it-
Does this happen alot? Where an MLCer will sort of leave, and the spouse has to be the one to nudge the MLCer to be truly independent? H says this is what he wants, but his actions don't back his words up... I know he is conflicted about his feelings for me..this separation is supposed to help him figure that out, right?
Hey K, why did you tell him you wouldnt see him at lunch? Just curious. You dont need to tell him what you are doing during the day. You just go about your business unless it is something that he needs to know regarding the children.
My h stayed in the home for 19 months post bomb with me gently nudging him to move forward if that was what he kept saying he wanted. I finally could not move forward and db with him coming
and going as he pleased (he would go away half the week) so I told him he has to go. Might not be what you are comfortable with but it was necessary for ME. I didnt worry about what it meant or if it was going to help us or make him come back. |
Do what feels right for you. Put the emphasis on you and your kids and not on whether it is going to make him change his mind.
You keep saying the splitting of the bank accounts are going to make you more separated. Just go and do it. Open up an account in your name and start to put some money in it.
K, do what makes you happy. Let h blow in the wind right now. He needs to figure it all out on his own.
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DOnt run anything by him regarding your life. Just live it.
Good luck.
K
I also believe for a lot of us lbs, we are the ones to push the MLCer out
MY XH was also happy to visit the home 4x a week to see kids
we spent many hours in conversations where the R was also one sided
me supporting, caring, listening ect
It always hurt when we connected emptionally and XH left
I was the one to tell H to file
I also went dim to iniate less contact to get him moving one way or the other
he moved toward the OW..finally when she became out in open
that is OK
as I kept my head in the sand for 2 years..my H hardly moved
I changed and became the best wife possible under these conditions
I felt inconditional love for H and did all I could to be there
It didnt bring him home
so
now I am detached
we are D
He has let go and so have I
we never know what will happen
many stories are similar and many different
some return, others never
all you can do is try techniques and then cjange modify what may work
but with the mlcer
usually not much works unless they can find therapy and work it thru
peace
Thanks Peace and BM,
I did end up going home for lunch, 30 minutes later than usual(surprised H a bit) b/c I was exhausted and needed a nap-which I got. Didn't really talk to H too much-just went in my room and slept.
Tonight I had bookclub, but saw H briefly. He shared his day with me-seemed kind of down. I listened and empathized. I shared that I felt when things settle in his mind, he'll be able to sleep-his body will follow suit. He said he'll probably sleep 6 months straight then.. Overall OK day re: interactions with H.
I know I'm still not clear what my path with H is, but I appreciate the variety of experiences and advice given. I think I'm headed somewhere in the middle...I know I am detaching more emotionally-I had an urge to drive by OW's house on the way home to see if H's car was there, but didn't. That's not who I want to be-the rejected/clingy spouse. Realized it really wouldn't change a thing one way or the other whether he was there or not. Don't really think he is there during the week anyway, but who knows.
This morning I left before H arrived. Didn't go home for lunch. I had no contact with H since last evening. ( I know, I know a big whopping 15 hours). H called me at work today to check-in. He wondered where I was as he had been waiting for me to get home to have lunch with me...We had a friendly chat, I explained I had errands that I had to run and I asked H is he could see if the girls could spend some time with him this weekend-he agreed. He's hesitant since the last time he felt very rejected by them, but I think its important he keeps trying and I need a break from teenage moodiness!
H said he'd call me later to check-in...He seems to like the routine we're in. He did say he slept better last night. I wonder if that means he was with OW since the last time he 'slept better than he had in months' he had spent the night with her!I kept my mouth SHUT! :-) If he calls or texts me tonight I'll know he's not with OW...I know I shouldn't care but a little part of me does.
I'm a bit down today b/c I asked my doctor to order tests for STDs(just in case) b/c H slept with me after being with OW(without protection)...Its just is embarassing for me to ask for those tests, and I'm mad I was put at possible risk. I really want to ask H to use protection if this A continues but I can't bring OW up so ....
Will keep up dimness(I know I'm probably not very dim am I?)-not initiating contact. I do feel in my situation that responding to H's efforts with friendliness is important. I think if I totally ignored him it would backfire, at least right now. Might work later.
Hey K, good for you for getting tested, that is important. Do what you feel is right regarding interactions with h. Just remember that he has his feet in both worlds and so has no real reason to move toward you as long as he does.
Going dim or dark would be difficult for you as h is still at home most of the time. But did you notice when you didnt tell him you werent coming home for lunch, that he reached out?
Just go on with your life, be friendly but light. Let him see that you are moving forward. You are doing great!
Thanks BG.
I did notice he called me and didn't know what to make of me not showing up 'as scheduled' for lunch! I don't know why but I'm just sad tonight. Noticed my H had his old therapist's number up on his rolodex in office-not sure what to make of that since he saw the guy only a handful of times and thought he was too 'granola-y'-into alternative treatments with vitamins...He is still making appointments with his HMO therapist.
I've been reading through Yellowrose's archived threads-makes me realize what a long haul this is with no guarantee at the end. And that thought makes me angry that my life is in a way being hijacked(I know its my choice to stick it out), this detour wasn't my choice. I'm sad for all the things my H will miss with his daughter's and sad for my daughter's not having a strong, consistent father in their lives. Lots of emotions!
K
Its good that you H is still seeking therapy
and we have all been there and still are at times..sad for our kids that they have so fragile a father
who cheated ect
but
my R is stronger with my kids due to this mess
its all in Gods hands
peace
Oh K, you are so early into this. It is perfectly understandable that you have all these emotions. I am 21 months into this and I still have great big moments of anger and sadness. Its ok.
The road you take on this journey is always your choice. No one knows what the future holds. Everyone's journey is different. But I will promise you this - you will grow and learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible. While this is absolutely not the road any of us thought we would have to take, you will come out of this stronger than you ever thought possible.
Try not to look at anyone's timeline. Try not to look at the long haul. Take it one day at a time, one moment at a time if you have to.
The way to lessen the intensity of the feelings really is to detach as much as you can. Everyone gets there in their own time. But start with little things, like not looking around in his office. I know its hard, but it really is for the best.
Try each day not to give your h all of your headspace. Concentrate on your girls and what things you might want to try that you havent. Just go for it. Take a class, go out with a girlfriend. It really is important for your girls and your h to see you GAL and it is most important for you.
If you look back at Yellowrose and BND and others who have db'd sucessfully, you will find that it wasnt until they let go completely that their h's moved toward them. Once they started living life without worrying about their h's, their h's started towards home.
So, have a cry and then get to gettin'. You could do this. We are here for you.