Previous threadMy friend 'K', whose W forced the sale of his house and pretty much made him homeless dropped by last night and stayed over.
He, like me, is a pretty giving and intuitive person and can look into someones eyes and see where they are really at emotionally.
Anyway, I had told him that I didn't mind him staying over sometimes but I was concerned that W would be worried because she had had some incidents as a child and was overly protective of the girls. He's cool with that and is a good guy.
This morning W was over doing the usual morning stuff with the girls and K got up and struck up a conversation with her. I was in bed still and she came into my room to tell me that D13 was sick. Then she says "K told me that you said I was concerned about him being here because of a childhood incident I had. I don't remember telling you that, I don't have an issue with him staying over".
I was a little angry and told her that I didn't say she was concerned, I said she _might_ be concerned and I didn't want to worry her. I also said that I felt he had no right to talk to her about what I said.
She said "Well I hope you weren't using that as an excuse to get him to not ask to stay over". I told her that was not the case.
So I got up in a few minutes and she was leaving. I talked to K and was initially angry but he told me that he was trying to feel her out because he had never really talked to her. Then he told me a little bit about their conversation.
He basically said that his impression was that she was a lost, scared and confused soul. At one point he was talking about how he was currently 'homeless' and she said "Yeah, I know what you mean because I'm homeless too". This was when they were standing outside on the front lawn of our house talking. He told me that it was all he could do not to say "Hello? You're homeless because of the choices you made" but he said to me that he really felt that she was too fragile and would break down if he said that. He did say that she was talking as if she was a victim.
We also talked about the fact that she had put up a few decorations this morning. I haven't talked to her about that but he was saying, as others have said, that I need to set strong boundaries from now on and that is an important start.
I agreed that I'm being wishy washy because I really don't want to let go. But, as he said, that keeps me stuck and I'm not able to grow.
K also suggested that I fill out the Divorce forms and tell her that I have them ready. Not as a 'strategy' but as a symbolic gesture of moving forward. My marriage is over and she's lost.
Grandma says so. Her dad says so. Her brother. All my friends.
I've been walking on eggshells still. It's eating me alive. And hurting my work.
So, letting her go and moving on is hard. Setting firm boundaries is hard because I don't want to hurt her. But I need to love me.
She's really a good person inside. I know she seems happy but I also know she is in pain and I can't fix it for her. And holding on hurts me, which means it hurts my girls.
I dont know about filing being a symbolic gesture. Seems to me to be more of a legal gesture.
California has a 6 month wait for a divorce judgment to be final. However, if both of you agree, you can prepare a marital settlement agreement and file with the court.
I think it wise when you have considerable assets or kids involved to get someone (ie a mediation lawyer) to help fill out the details of all the divorce documents - parenting plan, division of assets/retirement, spousal support, child support, life insurance, kids college plans, health insurance, etc...
I dont know about filing being a symbolic gesture. Seems to me to be more of a legal gesture.
California has a 6 month wait for a divorce judgment to be final. However, if both of you agree, you can prepare a marital settlement agreement and file with the court.
I think it wise when you have considerable assets or kids involved to get someone (ie a mediation lawyer) to help fill out the details of all the divorce documents - parenting plan, division of assets/retirement, spousal support, child support, life insurance, kids college plans, health insurance, etc...
agreed. The initial filing doesn't have to have those items but it starts the clock going.
I think the clock starts ticking once the respondent is served.
My initial filing was ridiculous - it had me as full custody, she paid child support, no spousal support. It was just lawyer 101 to get things started. I told W as such, but she was still very angry at its legal wording.
Well, it doesn't matter because I'm not going to file. I was just kicking around the idea of telling her we should go file together and get the clock started so she could be divorced in 6 months.
But, I really don't need to do that. Just set boundaries and accept that this is where it's going right now.
<< My initial filing was ridiculous - it had me as full custody, she paid child support, no spousal support. It was just lawyer 101 to get things started. I told W as such, but she was still very angry at its legal wording.
Kerry, This doesn't seem too ethical at least to me. It probably wipes out any hopes for mediation and keeps the lawyers in business by triggering the maximum conflict. Just my opinion of course.
where is it going Frank? limbo? this is from someone that for the longest time held onto a lost man, a lost man to himself and thus, to me/others. A good db friend told me how much happier I was now that all that crap was over, I sounded better and free, that before I was putting together a puzzle, forcing hoping the pieces would fit and each time one would buckle and I"d fret to keep it together.
So you dont' want to hurt her by stopping this merry go round and vicious cycle, isnt' SHE hurting you without a second thought? I'm not saying tit for tat, but she has no earthly idea how badly you are hurting and she keeps on going thinking only of herself.
Fb2 - I initially was going for full custody because of her including the kids as part of her affair. After cooling off, we tried mediation, but gave that up for possible reconciliation. The lawyers were very professional and I thought that mine earned his pay.
Frank, you will know when to say enough is enough. For now, it appears you are still trying to figure out the realistic goals and expectations.
where is it going Frank? limbo? this is from someone that for the longest time held onto a lost man, a lost man to himself and thus, to me/others. A good db friend told me how much happier I was now that all that crap was over, I sounded better and free, that before I was putting together a puzzle, forcing hoping the pieces would fit and each time one would buckle and I"d fret to keep it together.
That pretty much describes how it's been. It has to end, for sure.
So you dont' want to hurt her by stopping this merry go round and vicious cycle, isnt' SHE hurting you without a second thought? I'm not saying tit for tat, but she has no earthly idea how badly you are hurting and she keeps on going thinking only of herself.
Yes, I agree with what you say. I'm not ready to file, I am ready to start acting as if I will be divorced and set new boundaries. It hurts and It's scary. I've been riding the merry go round too long, hoping for it to change. Not changing myself like I need to be.
I choose.
My understanding is that Ls make asking for EVERYTHING in the petition a common practice. This paves the way for maximum conflict and ensures a bitter 'contest'. In the worst case respondents are so devastated by the D filing that they do not respond and so lose EVERYTHING by default. But at minimum this ensures $$$ for the Ls professional or not. Your L knew full well that there wasn't sufficient reason to give your W 0 custody. It would not hurt in this case to talk to an L to understand the what D might entail and prepare for it financially and otherwise.
My understanding is that Ls make asking for EVERYTHING in the petition a common practice. This paves the way for maximum conflict and ensures a bitter 'contest'.
That's damn sure not how we do it at my firm.
If anything, my attorneys want everything hammered out so we DON'T have to go to court.
At any rate this is a moot point because Frank is not ready to file.
Frank,
There is absolutely nothing legally binding about you seeing an attorney and looking at your assets and getting a reasonable idea of what you could expect in the event of a divorce.
In fact, it's the smart thing to do.
For both of you.
Your wife has NO FREAKIN CLUE what she is entitled to but I guarantee you it's more than she's living with now so YOU REALLY NEED to find out where you are going to stand if worse comes to worse.
I think what you find out would be shocking to you both.
It might be beneficial for you to start looking at your sitch from a business standpoint.
Additionally, WAWs need all the shock value that a reality check provides.
Maybe get her one for Christmas...
Amy
Sorry to intrude Frank...I was where you are and the advice Amy C is giving is...just what I needed.
Amy C....I'm in Va, too. I appreicate your straight forward insight. I especially appreciate how you've been giving Frank a view from the 'other side'...the WAS.
If you get a chance...come see me?
Again, Frank...sorry to intrude.
Frank, I agree with the amy lady.
your business is finding it's grove again.
protect yourself.
Additionally, WAWs need all the shock value that a reality check provides.
Maybe get her one for Christmas...
What would you suggest? I like to shop online at Amazon.com
Seriously, I'm ready to do whatever I need to do to set my own boundaries, and let her see more of the reality of what she's done to the girls and I.
No more 'strategies' other than helping to give her the 'lesson' in as nice a way possible. I got mine already.
Ford, you need to call me sometime man.
The word on the street is that ford needs to join facebook.
But we don't talk about him behind his back or anything.
just sayin'
W took D13 to get glasses this afternoon. When she came back she thanked me for paying for them. I said "It's no problem, I need to take care of my girls, I'm their dad".
She got angry and said "I don't say things like that to you when I do things for them".
I realized that she took as me putting her down in some way. I wasn't, I just wanted to say that I take responsibility for the girls well being.
So, I told her that I didn't mean to make it sound like we're competing, and I also said that sometimes she does say defensive things.
so we fixed the issue
Good.
Because your statement was condescending and yes you did mean to rub her face in it.
Yes you did, Frank.
Because you want her to feel bad and acknowledge & appreciate all that you do.
Now.
I'm sorry but that isn't going to happen on your schedule.
No, nothing is happening on my schedule.
Now you're just preaching to the choir, my friend.
You still didn't tell me what 'reality checks' I should give her for Christmas.
Duh.
A written breakdown and projected division of assets you'll get soon after you meet with an attorney.
I need to tell W that I'm uncomfortable with her 'decorating' the house when she comes over in the morning, or on her thursday visits.
I want to send an E-mail because then there won't be any emotion attached to it.
I want her to know that the morning time with the girls is supposed to be just that, time with them as they get ready for school.
Sometimes she cleans, sometimes she tells them to clean their rooms and other things.
It makes me uncomfortable and I think I should tell her that the girls and I need to create our own christmas traditions so we can heal and get used to living life as a divorced family.
I am afraid I will come across as attacking her or 'keeping her from the girls' during the holidays so I don't want to write it myself.
Thoughts?
Duh.
A written breakdown and projected division of assets you'll get soon after you meet with an attorney.
Yeah, I should do that anyway so I know where I stand financially.
Duh.
A written breakdown and projected division of assets you'll get soon after you meet with an attorney.
Yeah, I should do that anyway so I know where I stand financially.
Ummm yeah...I (among others) have said that more than a few times.
Glad to know you finally hear us, though.
I feel an email is the wrong medium for such a message. This is something you have to talk face to face on and you need to show that you are firm. Make her to understand the concept of your place and her place. Do you think she would be ok with you coming over to do things at her place?
You are not taking the time with the children away, you are just letting her know you are uncomfortable about her doing the decorating, and the kids want it to be done by them and dad.She will probably be a little hurt, but that is the reality that Amy is talking about, this is what she has chosen. There are repurcussions of her choices.
I need to tell W that I'm uncomfortable with her 'decorating' the house when she comes over in the morning, or on her thursday visits.
I want to send an E-mail because then there won't be any emotion attached to it.
I want her to know that the morning time with the girls is supposed to be just that, time with them as they get ready for school.
Sometimes she cleans, sometimes she tells them to clean their rooms and other things.
It makes me uncomfortable and I think I should tell her that the girls and I need to create our own christmas traditions so we can heal and get used to living life as a divorced family.
I am afraid I will come across as attacking her or 'keeping her from the girls' during the holidays so I don't want to write it myself.
Thoughts?
1) Keep the mornings before school separate from the Christmas issue.
2) Lose that statement about creating your own Christmas traditions. It IS exclusionary. Simply state that under the circumstances you feel that you each need to plan on your own time with the kids over Christmas because you are not comfortable having a "family celebration". You do not owe her anything more than that. I would not try explaining myself to her if I were you. She left. So she should have foreseen this. If she didn't - tough crap. That's piss poor prior planning on her part, then.
Be careful about what you put in writing.
Be prepared to offer her specific days/hours that she can plan to
come get the girls over Christmas.
Shoot me a draft and I'll proof if you want.
I feel an email is the wrong medium for such a message. This is something you have to talk face to face on and you need to show that you are firm. Make her to understand the concept of your place and her place. Do you think she would be ok with you coming over to do things at her place?
An email could protect Frank from a legal standpoint.
2) Lose that statement about creating your own Christmas traditions. It IS exclusionary. Simply state that under the circumstances you feel that you each need to plan on your own time with the kids over Christmas because you are not comfortable having a "family celebration". You do not owe her anything more than that. I would not try explaining myself to her if I were you. She left. So she should have foreseen this. If she didn't - tough crap. That's piss poor prior planning on her part, then.
We already have separate plans for Christmas. The girls will spend the morning here, and the afternoon with her.
The issue is that when she is here at the house, she does things like put up decorations. It makes me uncomfortable and kind of is like she is thinking "This is still my home".
Okay.
Then state that in whatever form you feel it would be conveyed best then stick to your guns.
Just put it nicely that this is your home and the girls' home. She can decorate her home however she chooses, but you and the girls want to do your own decorating. Like Amy said, this was her choice.
Her room.
She can decorate her ROOM.
Sorry.
OJ's thread in Separated has me spittin' bullets right now.
Because you want her to feel bad and acknowledge & appreciate all that you do.
Now.
I'm sorry but that isn't going to happen on your schedule.
I guess I had to think about this statement again. I wonder if she will ever acknowledge & appreciate all that I do and have done under great stress. And if she does, will it matter.
Frank...if I may...that's part of loving unconditionally...if not your W then your children, after all that is who we do it all for !
Sorry for the interuption !
I think the bigger question might be why do feel such a deep need for her validation, Frank?
I know that appreciation expressed is nice but why do you SO need it from HER?
Think about it.
AmyC,
Someone gave me exactly that same question a long time ago, and it took some thought (as you say) but the answer to it was very enlightning !
I think the bigger question might be why do feel such a deep need for her validation, Frank?
I know that appreciation expressed is nice but why do you SO need it from HER?
Think about it.
It isn't that I need it from her, it's that if she were to start to truly appreciate what I do / have done that would be a possible step for her to see that we can make this work.
Let's face it, I'm having trouble accepting that after all the years together she is just done. Last night when we had this exchange she said that she's "Learning how to communicate with me as a co-parent". She has decided in her heart that there is nothing left and I am not past the grieving, to acceptance.
I guess some people take longer than others. I'm one of them.
So, please help me accept this is the way it is.
I think the bigger question might be why do feel such a deep need for her validation, Frank?
I know that appreciation expressed is nice but why do you SO need it from HER?
Think about it.
It isn't that I need it from her, it's that if she were to start to truly appreciate what I do / have done that would be a possible step for her to see that we can make this work.
>>>> INSERT BS FLAG HERE <<<< because that statement is not accurate. Your neediness is in direct correlation to your lack of self-esteem. Sorry. But it needed to be said and you need to address it and overcome it.Let's face it, I'm having trouble accepting that after all the years together she is just done. Last night when we had this exchange she said that she's "Learning how to communicate with me as a co-parent". She has decided in her heart that there is nothing left and I am not past the grieving, to acceptance.
I guess some people take longer than others. I'm one of them.
So, please help me accept this is the way it is.
I'm not sure what you're asking with that last statement but ok.
Everything takes time.
Especially this.
And it's harder around holidays.
I think that IS what everyone has been doing for you, Frank.
Trying to get you to ACCEPT
No one has been blowing smoke up your ass.
Not even me when I try to make you understand how she might feel sometimes.
I can quit doing that, though.
To hell with it.
Become bitter and jaded.
If that's what it takes to get you through then so be it.
Just so you know, Frank, I'm not aggravated with you (although you may be with me).
I'm just not going to mince words, wax poetic or participate in anymore psycho-babble justifications (read - piddly-ass excuses) that only serve to keep you knee deep in this crap.
Just man the hell up and take control of your friggin house!
Love ya.
Peace out.
AmyC
I guess some people take longer than others. I'm one of them.
So, please help me accept this is the way it is.
Frank, your biggest problem is letting go and detaching. You may know all about what it is, but you surely dont know how to put it into action.
I think what you need to do first and foremost is go see an experienced lawyer. Tell him/her a condensed version of your long story and what you want. Prepare a list of questions. When you find the lawyer you are comfortable with, they will help you develop a game plan. Dont rely on your morally broken and lost wife to be calling the plays because this quasi marriage/hidden divorce could go on for years.
Once you can move on, I really believe that there is the happiness and love of someone else out there for you.
Frank, she has acknowledged and has shown appreciation from time to time. I sense, however, that you want her to wake up one day and feel that she needs you, and that she needs to be with you. But if this ever happens - and I bet it will (eventually) - you still won't be satisfied nor convinced, because you'd know that came back out of need, and not love.
You do know that you don't need her, don't you? Do you really want a woman to be with you out of pure need? Would that give you security or instability?
Besides, you've been down this road before. Why don't you try something different this time Frank?
Peace.
Frank,
One reason this may be so hard for you is the history of "leaving" in your life. Maybe you feel like you can somehow stop this all from happening (again). You hold on so tightly to this hope of reconciliation because you know, first hand, the brutality of being "left". Frank, you didn't have any choices at the other times in your life. You were victimized by the people who should have been protecting you.....for whatever their reasons.
You are not a victim in this situation. You have choices. You can have a very big say in how this unfolds. Try to look at this more from the vantage that you are choosing a healthier life for you and your children instead of it being a situation where your W is abandoning you. Maybe that will make it easier to do all the ground work that is necessary to protect yourself. I know I've said this to you before. There are no "do-overs" in divorce. You've had a lengthy marriage with someone who has mainly been a stay at home mom. This may not go down exactly like you expect. Research. See a lawyer. Soon.
I hope that makes sense. I hope it helps.
And, sorry friend, but Amy does a great job calling you on your crap. Listen to what she is saying and some of the interactions you have with W will improve. Less is more, in terms of your talking "at" her.
Hugs,
Spitfire
You are not a victim in this situation. You have choices. You can have a very big say in how this unfolds. Try to look at this more from the vantage that you are choosing a healthier life for you and your children instead of it being a situation where your W is abandoning you.
I hope that makes sense. I hope it helps.
And, sorry friend, but Amy does a great job calling you on your crap. Listen to what she is saying and some of the interactions you have with W will improve. Less is more, in terms of your talking "at" her.
Hugs,
Spitfire
You know me so well. This is the thing I need to overcome. It's hard. Abandonment.
Surely continually compromising yourself, which is only further damaging to your self-esteem, must be worse long-term.
Frank, when you have felt most alone in this world, Someone was waiting for you.
And still is.
You are getting a lot of good advice here Frank. Hope you are listening.
Best things I did after my separation:
Go see a lawyer and get some books/websites and get up to speed. The day the doorbell rings and the process server is on the other side is not the day to think lawyer.
Really set boundaries, not just talk about them. Best do it legally - get the visitation schedule nailed. Your kids deserve no less. She has the kids at her place, not yours. On set days, not every day.
Set a budget and who is responsible for what bills. She is also responsible for the kids. Stop paying all her old bills. She is responsible for them too. Maybe 50/50 is not fair but neither is 0/100% if she is working even some.
Those are the minimum.
Interesting you used the word "indifference" a few posts back. Trying to fall out of love Frank? If you figure that out please let me know how you did it b/c I need to know the secret. The best we can do is focus on us and remember the love and come to grips with the fact that they need to move on.
What you are doing is to hang on so tight that you are enabling her behavior. In fact you are hurting her in a way since she *needs* to move in a different direction and your responses are in a way preventing her form doing that.
Finally, where is Frank in all this? You post your W's every move but nothing about Frank except for work.
I asked you some time back what is your five year plan? What is your purpose?
The way you are going I can easily see you in exactly the same place as you are today. With D12 now the new D17 going on D18 and ready to leave the nest.
Frank will be 55 then. And alone.
You deserve better.
Frank,
Have you ever checked into Divorce Care? It is a great program for seperated and divorced men and women.You can check it out on the web. A great healing process. Bible based.
Hmm, just picked up D13 from school to go home sick. Told her to call her mom since W is supposed to pick her up to go to the dentist. I told her to get some rest so maybe she could still go.
When we got home, I asked her what W's plans were for tonights weekly visit at the house. D13 said that W told her this morning that they'd have dinner and then she was going to do some decorating. D13 said she told W that she shouldn't be decorating because Dad wants to decorate with the girls. W told her that she wanted to do some also, and was going to talk to dad.
D13 then told me that she was tired of mom acting like she still lives here.
So tonight we will be having a talk.
Go into tonights talk with conviction for yourself and your daughters private life in the house.
Make this a NUT - an Non-negotiable Unalterable Term.
Remember, express but dont defend yourself.
Strength and Honor
Yeah, just trying to figure out how to say it.
"W I'm not comfortable with you doing things as if you live in this house. It also hurts the girls because it gives them a mixed message. We need time to heal and you need to respect that"
well, everything blew up this afternoon.
W took D17 to the Dentist this afternoon. In a nutshell D17 had some cavities and got upset. Dentist said it was unusual to have as many as she had and maybe it was acid reflux. But then the dentist said it was unlikely because she has no other symptoms.
D17 started to cray and W said "Well we'll take you to Dr N (her holistic dr) and she can figure it out". D17 got angry and said she didn't want to see Dr N because she thinks she's a quack.
W told her that she was wrong, and then an argument ensued at the Dentists.
They came home and it was clear they had both been crying. It was 4 pm so W asked me if it was ok if she started her 'thursday evening with the girls' now. D17 Asked if that meant she was staying and I said 'sure' and left the room. At this point I didn't know what had happened.
D17 came into my office crying and told me the story. She said that W disrespects her and it's always "Her way or the highway".
A couple minutes W came in and was upset because D13 told her she didn't want to do 'decorating' with her because she doesn't live here. Now W is saying both girls hate her and think I am the better parent. D17 is crying and tells her that they don't hate her, and that my name was never mentioned nor was "Dad is a better parent"
So they blew up and rehashed all the past arguments they've had. I stayed out of it. When there was a pause I told W that I felt that decorating the house was crossing my boundary, and I asked the girls what they thought and they said they wanted a low key Christmas.
So she got upset and said "Well what am I supposed to do? I don't have any decorations. I could take some of ours but the girls won't come over to P's house."
Then D17 said "We would but you never ask us to!"
That started another round between the two of them, and W walked out of my office. D17 yelled at her "You always walk away instead of taking to me!" W kept going. D17 started sobbing, saying "I'm the worst daughter in the world! My mom hates me!"
I held her for a while, then left to go find W who was in the kitchen crying. I told her that she has a daughter in the other room who thinks that she hates her and that she's a bad daughter. I said "You need to go talk to her". She said "I try but she yells at me!" I said "Well suck it up and don't yell back. Everyone here is hurting because of the situation we're in because of your choices."
So, she screams "Well it's just great that I end up out of the house and you get away scott free after all you've done! I should be here with the girls instead of being out of the house!"
I said "You're out of the house because you decided being with OM was more important than your family."
She said that that's not why, and it's unfair that SHE ends up out when I'm the one who abandoned her emotionally for years.
I said that she needed to go talk to D17, who by then had walked by and went to her bedroom.
Of course, D13 is upstairs and hears her mother yelling which scares her. W goes upstairs to talk to D13, who as usual rejects her and tells her to leave her alone.
W comes downstairs and says that she's leaving because nobody wants her around tonight. I stop her at the door and tell her that's not true, that there is a lot of hurt going around here and she needs to help with the healing.
more in the next post...
So she says "What can I do, I'm not here to be in their lives and YOU are. " I said that's your choice, I don't want a divorce, the kids don't want a divorce."
She says "You don't understand Frank, I lost all my respect for you years ago when you started drinking. I just didn't know how to leave."
So it turns into an R talk. Basically she 'understands' that I was hurting, but I don't understand that she was hurting because she thought I didn't want her. I explain that I didn't want ME or respect ME and anyone around me.
That during her affair 3 years ago I stopped drinking, I carried all of us emotionally and I couldn't do it any more. She says "Yes, I'm not the kind of person who should be with you because I can't fulfill those needs, I can't be married to you. I don't want to belong to anybody and I don't think I'll ever regain that respect for you"
Then she says "I respect who you are as a person, and when I talk to people who don't even know you I tell them what a great man you are. I think this is an opening for you, a turning point in your life and you're going to go on to great things. I'm just not the right person for you."
Then she says "You know you don't really want me, you haven't wanted me or respected me for a long time. And you'll never get over the affairs."
She is in her calm, I know I'm right, voice.
My last comment to her is that we didn't respect each other because we didn't respect ourselves. we were both hurting and neither was capable of helping the other.
She says "Yes, but you think that because we 'understand' what went wrong that we can fix it. I think that it shouldn't be fixed".
With that she left the room.
about 10 minutes later she calls to tell me that she is going to McD's to get D13 something. Then she asks if she can pick up something for me. I said thanks and told her what I would like.
She said that afterwards she was going home since D13 didn't want to hang out with her.
So, what did I learn? I learned that she doesn't respect me yet tells people what a great guy I am. She is angry that I apparently got a 'free pass' and get to live in my house while she struggles. And that she has had a vision of me living some great and wonderful life without her.
and nothing will change her mind.
Hold off on the boundary talk for another day. Your W's mind is not running on all gears today.
Talk to a lawyer, but I am pretty sure that since she has left the house, you have a good chance of staying with it.
and finally....
She came back with the burgers. Hung around a few minutes and talked to me in the kitchen about the girls.
Then she ate her burger and started to leave. She said in her quiet voice, "well have a good night". I said "You too". Then as I was walking away she says "Don't forget your burger". I said "I won't forget".
Hold off on the boundary talk for another day. Your W's mind is not running on all gears today.
Talk to a lawyer, but I am pretty sure that since she has left the house, you have a good chance of staying with it.
The boundary talk has been done. she knows she doesn't live here and has no moral right to act as if she does.
She even asked me if it was still ok for her to wash her massage sheets on Thursdays when she's here for the evening. I told her that was fine. The boundary has been set.
I'm not worried about the house. It would cause us great hardship to live separately and the house is below the mortgage value so selling is not an option. She COULD move back in any time since she is 1/2 owner. She won't though. she's afraid and ashamed.
First of all Frank, you handled D17 and your statements to your wife regarding Christmas very well.
I'm sorry for all the arguing that went on but I noted 3 things that I think are important.
1) Your girls and their mother have got to find a way to communicate with one another and YOU have to stay out of that relationship. Trust me, it's one more stressor that you don't need. Let your wife carry that burden. If she ignores it, that's on her. You just need to be there for the girls when they need to vent.
2) Your wife told you what she felt about being emotionally abandoned by you when you were falling. So it is what it is. Now you have to deal with the guilt and regret you have over that and that's just going to take some time. That perceived failure on your part is feeding enormously into your lack of self esteem. Please, please, please make this the focus of your counseling! It's the root of most everything that troubles you, I think.
3) She never once mentioned love. Only respect. Specifically, having lost respect for you. This is very telling of how she needs to be propped up & carried by a man. NO ONE needs this kind of person sucking the life out of them Frank, which is what she has basically done to you. SHE is warped and YOU can't fix her. You can and should pray for her. But you absolutely can NOT fix her. And you didn't do this to her, either. This was in her LONG before she met you. It's just NOT your cross to bear.
This is the time for Frank.
Find out who he is.
Who you want him to become.
Why he is wonderful and unique and worthy of love.
Stop being your own punching bag.
No, you didn't get here by yourself.
But you can damn sure decide by yourself that you're not staying here.
Believe it!
Again, I'm sorry about all the arguing and the emotional upheaval, too.
Amy
Hold off on the boundary talk for another day. Your W's mind is not running on all gears today.
Talk to a lawyer, but I am pretty sure that since she has left the house, you have a good chance of staying with it.
The boundary talk has been done. she knows she doesn't live here and has no moral right to act as if she does.
She even asked me if it was still ok for her to wash her massage sheets on Thursdays when she's here for the evening. I told her that was fine. The boundary has been set.
I'm not worried about the house. It would cause us great hardship to live separately and the house is below the mortgage value so selling is not an option.
She COULD move back in any time since she is 1/2 owner. She won't though. she's afraid and ashamed. As well you shouldn't LET her.
I worry about your seeming willingness to settle should you be given the chance.
I hope you understand that I will hope you aren't.
oh yeah, I forgot one other thing. She said that she went to the OMs because she was lonely and thought I didn't want her.
Frank
move your office outta the house.
you spend all day stuck in to room of doom. how the hell are you gunna break outta the pattern that gives you daily kicks in the nuts?
I also like what purple haired lady said..
I come from a family of dentists. The hidden message from the dentist is that D17 might be bulimic. Vomit wears away the enamel on the teeth. Dentists know what other people deny. So your daughter did well. She totally distracted everyone from what the dentist was saying and stirred the drama pot instead.
move your office outta the house.
you spend all day stuck in to room of doom. how the hell are you gunna break outta the pattern that gives you daily kicks in the nuts?
Makes sense. I stay in the negative environment.
So I just finished talking to D13. It's bedtime and she told me about her dreams and ideas. I listened and even though most of it wasn't interesting to me, I remembered what was interesting to her and gave her feedback on her topics.
I remembered how she said that mom didn't seem to care about her interests. I did, and I listened.
IN the end, I thought about the difference between W and I. We both love our kids. No question about that. But I listen to them and she talks a them without really listening.
I don't judge them, I give them advice and suggestions. She trys to fix them even when they don't ask for fixing.
We can't be together because of this big 'difference'. I can understand that. What I can't understand is why I 'get it'. and she doesn't.
I love my girls. That's what really matters.
As well you shouldn't LET her.
I worry about your seeming willingness to settle should you be given the chance.
I hope you understand that I will hope you aren't.
I'm not. Besides, she has been very clear over and over again that nothing will change her mind. She said she 'will always love me' and she tells others what a great man I am. But she can never be married again. Even thought her 'friends' tell her she may feel differently in the future. Some friends.
Seriously, our life wasn't that bad. And with love and understanding it can be fixed.
But, she doesn't think so. She thinks it shouldn't be fixed. She loves me but doesn't think we should be together.
I can live with that, and even her 'vision' where I am happy and successful in my life without her.
I just don't believe any of it. I don't have the same vision.
Maybe I am foolish. I just have my own 'vision' where real love and commitment wins.
I'm probably wrong.
Frank,
Did you see Sara's post?
Is it possible there is anything to that? Has D17 been losing weight?
I only mention it because you said nothing about Sara's post. I have a colleague here at work, in her 50's, who went through a very serious battle with anorexia that nearly killed her.
If there's any chance there's something to this, you need to get some help to figure out what to do.
Blessings,
Bill
D17 is fine, she is not losing weight. She eats healthy and looks healthy. I would clue into that pretty quick. One thing is that the cavities are between her teeth and her teeth are kind of 'dense packed'. She had braces so they are straight. Mine were like that too. She spends all her free time with her boyfriend, and he's a smart guy who would also clue in to any food issues.
She's mostly a vegetarian. I think she just has teeth that are not as strong as others.
After all the drama W went and 'made amends' with D17. D17 has a temper when she feels like she isn't being listened to.
Your wife told you what she felt about being emotionally abandoned by you when you were falling. So it is what it is. Now you have to deal with the guilt and regret you have over that and that's just going to take some time. That perceived failure on your part is feeding enormously into your lack of self esteem. Please, please, please make this the focus of your counseling! It's the root of most everything that troubles you, I think.
Yeah, I know. When I countered with the fact that she abandoned me when my self esteem was crap she used that as a reason why we shouldn't be together.
She never once mentioned love. Only respect. Specifically, having lost respect for you. This is very telling of how she needs to be propped up & carried by a man. NO ONE needs this kind of person sucking the life out of them Frank, which is what she has basically done to you. SHE is warped and YOU can't fix her. You can and should pray for her. But you absolutely can NOT fix her. And you didn't do this to her, either. This was in her LONG before she met you. It's just NOT your cross to bear.
I know I didn't 'do' anything to her. I just failed at being a man of strength and honor and this is the result. I get that, if it had been a different woman in my life, one who had strength, that things would have turned out differently. Instead we both got hurt, went through cycles of up and down.
Yes, this is the time for Frank to find himself. Nothing is going to change her mind and we all have to pay for it. I didn't hold this together but I can build a new life.
I talked to D17's boyfriend this morning and asked him if he was aware of D17 vomiting to lose weight. He said no way, she's fine and is eating right and exercising (which I have seen her do exercises) to get healthy.
He did say that at the Dentist either her mom or the dentist they implied she was Bulimic and it upset her because she isn't.
Anyway, she's clearly not. Case closed.
I just failed at being a man of strength and honor and this is the result. I get that, if it had been a different woman in my life, one who had strength, that things would have turned out differently. Instead we both got hurt, went through cycles of up and down.
EXCUSE ME?????You are
STILL blaming your own personal failures on your wife's shortcomings.
"If she..." this
"If she...." that
"If they didn't..." (back in the day)
BULLSH*T, FRANK
Are you gonna own your sh*t or not?
Stop blaming every damn body else for the ways in which you've been less than perfect.
Jesus, Frank!
If that's what we're all doing then I get to blame my crap on my mom and on the fact Jeff drank too much and just didn't understand me!
OH GOODY! It's not MY fault I had a MLC! It's my mother's - she set me up for it! It's not MY fault I had an affair! My husband should have paid better attention to me and saw the warning signs that I might stray! It's not MY fault I treated a man that busted his ass to take care of me like dog crap! It's all HIS fault! He should have taken better care of me and I wouldn't have fallen!
GET REAL!!How long do you think ya'll would let me get away with that crap?
You are blaming the adults in your life from your childhood
You are blaming your wife
WHEN THE FLIP ARE YOU GONNA STOP IT - OWN YOUR SH*T - AND PRESS THE HELL ON THANKING GOD THAT TODAY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW TO STOP THE INSANITY???HUH?
WHEN???!!!!!!!!
You are STILL blaming your own personal failures on your wife's shortcomings.
No, I'm making a logical observation that under different circumstances things would have BEEN different. I don't blame her, I blame myself. I lived with my fears and hurt and only I could fix them - and I didn't. I think that IF I was in a relationship with someone who was stronger then THEY might have been able to give me the catalyst I needed. That's all.
If that's what we're all doing then I get to blame my crap on my mom and on the fact Jeff drank too much and just didn't understand me! OH GOODY! It's not MY fault I had a MLC! It's my mother's - she set me up for it! It's not MY fault I had an affair! My husband should have paid better attention to me and saw the warning signs that I might stray! It's not MY fault I treated a man that busted his ass to take care of me like dog crap! It's all HIS fault! He should have taken better care of me and I wouldn't have fallen!
That almost sounds like my W talking.
WHEN THE FLIP ARE YOU GONNA STOP IT - OWN YOUR SH*T - AND PRESS THE HELL ON THANKING GOD THAT TODAY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW TO STOP THE INSANITY???
Now. There is no way she will ever come back. It's done. She 'loves' me but doesn't want me. Her friends have helped convince her that she will be happy some day, maybe get married again. There's nothing left but me. So, I need to start from scratch and rebuild me.
And yes, I don't blame her any more. It's pretty clear what happened and how I failed. I know what I need to do to stop the insanity.
You are STILL blaming your own personal failures on your wife's shortcomings.
No, I'm making a logical observation that under different circumstances things would have BEEN different. I don't blame her, I blame myself. I lived with my fears and hurt and only I could fix them - and I didn't. I think that IF I was in a relationship with someone who was stronger then THEY might have been able to give me the catalyst I needed.
I think you mean the kick in the ass but I disagree that this is necessarily a "logical" observation. It still feels to me like too much stake is put in another person, ANY other person, for something that has to be handled by you. ALWAYS HAD TO BE! Perhaps my perception is off... That's all.
If that's what we're all doing then I get to blame my crap on my mom and on the fact Jeff drank too much and just didn't understand me! OH GOODY! It's not MY fault I had a MLC! It's my mother's - she set me up for it! It's not MY fault I had an affair! My husband should have paid better attention to me and saw the warning signs that I might stray! It's not MY fault I treated a man that busted his ass to take care of me like dog crap! It's all HIS fault! He should have taken better care of me and I wouldn't have fallen!
That almost sounds like my W talking.
THAT is sarcasm talking and I don't really think that sounds like your wife - at least nothing that's been relayed here.
WHEN THE FLIP ARE YOU GONNA STOP IT - OWN YOUR SH*T - AND PRESS THE HELL ON THANKING GOD THAT TODAY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW TO STOP THE INSANITY???
Now. There is no way she will ever come back.
OMG - this can not have anything at all to DO with her Frank. Something is amiss - something is gnawing at me and I can't put my finger on it. It's like you are still basing too many of your actions, thoughts, etc...on the things SHE says and does. "Well she says...therefore I must..." DUDE. YOU NEED TO WANT TO HELP YOURSELF and I am feeling that the only reason you are even remotely interested in doing that is because it MIGHT get some kind of positive response from HER. It's done. She 'loves' me but doesn't want me. Her friends have helped convince her that she will be happy some day, maybe get married again. There's nothing left but me. So, I need to start from scratch and rebuild me.
And yes, I don't blame her any more. It's pretty clear what happened and how I failed
Knowing it and living ABOVE it are two different things. I hope you will rise above it . I know what I need to do to stop the insanity.
Don't forget the part where you forgive yourself, Frank.
Here are my fears.
If I tell her to stop coming over on school mornings to make breakfast for the girls, and to invite the girls to go to HER 'place' when she wants to spend time with them she will hate me more. Or she will threaten me with legal action. Either way I am pushing her away.
But, in a way I am enabling her by letting her come over to be with the girls in MY / THEIR house.
Amy and others are right. I'm afraid I will lose her and I keep this connection with her as a way to feel like I have some control over this situation. My self esteem is crap and I'm living in fear. When I was angry at her it wasn't like that.
I got sucked into the pit when I was nice and she was nice.
I'm in control of me, my home and my life. Maybe she will divorce me but I'm not going to continue to let her have her cake and eat it too.
Man Up. I've done this before. I'll do it again.
No.
This time you need to do it just like every other survivor here has done it, frank.
You cut her loose and you do the WORK ON YOURSELF
You stop thinking everything is up the creek because your wife won't reconcile and see that you see how you messed up.
Well blah, blah, friggin BLAH.
How many of us can sing that song?
What is the difference between you and everyone else here?
I'll tell you.
You busted your ass playing a role previously - not REALLY changing - and then your marriage was supposedly reconciled.
YAY.
But you messed up.
Instead of continuing to address issues you KNEW you had you hoodwinked yourself by letting yourself feel cocksure because your wife was home and then you spent your time counseling others on how to be the Authentic Male etc...etc...etc...and the truth was that you hadn't even done any of it yourself.
YOU HADN'T done the very thing you were counseling others to do.
You had not dealt with yourself - at your core.
You wanna know how I know, Frank?
Because that's EXACTLY what happened to me.
I spent more time here talking to others and trying to pick them up and the whole time, little by little, I was losing what little bit of a grip I had gotten on MY true self after my MLC.
Remember where that got me, Frank?
NOT dealing with my own demons?
DO YOU REMEMBER???
Oh, sure you probably aren't going to waltz your ass into the land of domination and submission in order to have your guilt assuaged by some sick bastard with a twisted mind but there are ALL KINDS of hell, Frank, and even if you choose to never leave the confines of your house they will find you.
Please don't run yourself ragged like I did (twice).
Truth is, Frank - all you've done is the window dressing.
And at the end of the day, every day, you are left with yourself and YOU HAVE STILL NOT dealt with your personal issues.
I'll tell you something else I know, too:
YOU are the one that's keeping yourself from moving forward.
It's YOU.
And even God - ESPECIALLY GOD - will not return a broken woman to a broken man.
You aren't gonna move an inch in any direction but DOWN unless you address your personal issues.
When you do that, and not until you do that, you will see through new eyes.
And THEN you will have been fully transformed (by the renewing of your mind).
And who knows what the world will hold in store for you then, Frank_D!
It would be at your fingertips.
But it won't happen until you cross this bridge.
And I'm real sorry but this is something you have to do on your own.
If you don't, you're likely to get sidetracked and cost yourself even more time.
There just ain't no other way.
If I knew a shortcut I'd tell you, Frank.
But I tried 'em all and they're all dead ends.
The only way outta this is THROUGH it.
Frank, you have gained a lot of wisdom in your time here.
When God started opening your eyes to the truth about people and relationships He began a work in you.
The Word says He is faithful to complete it.
I'm here to tell you firsthand that you can delay the completion of that work to no end.
But His Word is Truth.
And you can not run far enough away or into any darkness black enough that He won't pull you out.
Eventually you will get tired of running in circles.
And that's when you will learn what it really means to stand.
Godspeed,
Amy
Amy, you're so right. And I did see that you were doing what you said as far as giving to others but really avoiding yourself and your issues. I did exactly the same thing. I think it's because we are both so able to intellectualize things and we believe we can fix anything OUTSIDE ourselves.
But, we forget to fix what's INSIDE.
I'm blessed to have you as a friend.
Amy
There is a lot of us here that need to read that post. Frank you know she is right , its no easy though .
Good luck
Amy
There is a lot of us here that need to read that post. Frank you know she is right , its no easy though .
Good luck
Yes, I do. She is right. I've been stuck when I should be moving in the direction of dealing with the demons that have kept me down for so many years.
It really doesn't matter what W does any more. It matters what I do to get past my demons so I can live a decent life.
Like Amys H did, my W has given up on me. And she sees that she can get her 'needs' met by someone else. She believes I really didn't want her the past few years and maybe she's right. I didn't want anything that was 'my life'. I can't fix that, I really really can't, and I won't try any more.
The damage is done. I can fix myself and give my girls a decent life. Give myself a decent life. Enough is enough.
I spent some time last night thinking about how ashamed I am of myself. But also thinking that there was so much good in our marriage, in our family. so I'll focus on that and learn to live in my own skin as a probably divorced man. And I'll let go of the guilt and anger and fear.
starting today.
The damage is done. I can fix myself and give my girls a decent life. Give myself a decent life. Enough is enough.
I spent some time last night thinking about how ashamed I am of myself. But also thinking that there was so much good in our marriage, in our family. so I'll focus on that and learn to live in my own skin as a probably divorced man. And I'll let go of the guilt and anger and fear.
starting today.
You make it sound like the end of a process.... It is only FINALLY the beginning. As long as you stop worrying about whats around the corner you won't drive off the road.
What you are going through, choosing to start, is life. It is something that most if not all DBers forget about durring "DBing". We forget that relationships/marriage/divorce or whatever is part of our life, not our life period. The Lord has strange and sometimes brutal ways of showing that everything is part of our life, the life HE gave us to live for Him. Whether we see it after a long road that ends with the admirable public choice to admit they are there and that you are choosing to fight them, or shutting down and getting angry and bitter and choosing solitude fight them on your own, at some point we all have to admit that those demons are there. Once we recognize them we can't move on until they are gone. Only then we start to live again. You can't install over a virus. I pray that I am right when I tell you that I really believe that this isn't another false start for you Dre. God brought all of us here for a reason....they say that at some point we consider ourselves lucky to get to these lows. The light gets brighter everyday.
I guess in some ways after I played my 'role' to bring my W back from the edge of the abyss I lost what was left of myself. I became the WAS by withdrawing and falling into a severe depression.
I can totally understand how she would look at me, the man who 'stood for her' while she did so many destructive things, and was now falling even farther than before. I guess that kind of stress and hurt builds up until someone else walks into her life and treats her decently.
I understand how that would make you think that there is hope for a better life out there with someone else. Then after evaluating your life you'll 'see' how you were unhappy and felt unwanted. I felt the same way but for different reasons.
Anyway, I understand how she must feel. From January till now she has said and done a lot of crazy things but she has been consistent on one thing, and that is that we've been going through this stuff for too long and it has to end. Her solution is to separate and move on to our own lives.
I get that. I didn't address my issues and I waited for her to help me do what was MY work to do.
I understand that she doesn't want me any more. She still cares about me and thinks I'm a good man. It seems contradictory but I guess that's where you end up when you say 'enough, I can't do this any more'.
I understand that I can't love anyone until I love myself. I will treat myself better and continue to do the right thing.
I need to go dark / gray as well as I can. I need a break.
I guess in some ways after I played my 'role' to bring my W back from the edge of the abyss I lost what was left of myself. I became the WAS by withdrawing and falling into a severe depression.
I can totally understand how she would look at me, the man who 'stood for her' while she did so many destructive things, and was now falling even farther than before. I guess that kind of stress and hurt builds up until someone walks into her life and treats her decently.
I understand how that would make you think that there is hope for a better life out there with someone else. Then after evaluating your life you'll 'see' how you were unhappy and felt unwanted. I felt the same way but for different reasons.
Anyway, I understand how she must feel. From January till now she has said and done a lot of crazy things but she has been consistent on one thing, and that is that we've been going through this stuff for too long and it has to end. Her solution is to separate and move on to our own lives.
I get that. I didn't address my issues and I waited for her to help me do what was MY work to do.
I understand that she doesn't want me any more. She still cares about me and thinks I'm a good man. It seems contradictory but I guess that's where you end up when you say 'enough, I can't do this any more'.
I understand that I can't love anyone until I love myself. I will treat myself better and continue to do the right thing.
I need to go dark / gray as well as I can. I need a break.
It's not about her at this point anymore....
calling you in 5
No, it's not. I'm just saying I understand.
holy [censored]
amy hit that one outta the park.
whoaza.
Frank.
best way my tiny lil mind can explain your and your wife's marital dynamic is.
you see her as your wife.
she see's you as Dad.
dude, we gotta get through this..
what can I do?
best way my tiny lil mind can explain your and your wife's marital dynamic is.
you see her as your wife.
she see's you as Dad.
dude, we gotta get through this..
what can I do?
I think like you said in our phone conversation, and phoenyx also, is that I have the whole world waiting for me to make myself happy so I can go on to better things. Carrying the hurt and burden of W's choices is dragging me down. And as Amy said, I'm the one stopping me from growing.
So, tonight I'm journaling about things I want from life that are just for me and nobody else.
I've got to cut the cord that keeps me connected to W. She doesn't matter any more.
The damage is done. I can fix myself and give my girls a decent life. Give myself a decent life. Enough is enough.
I spent some time last night thinking about how ashamed I am of myself. But also thinking that there was so much good in our marriage, in our family. so I'll focus on that and learn to live in my own skin as a probably divorced man. And I'll let go of the guilt and anger and fear.
starting today.
As long as you stop worrying about whats around the corner you won't drive off the road.
What you are going through, choosing to start, is life. It is something that most if not all DBers forget about durring "DBing". We forget that relationships/marriage/divorce or whatever is part of our life, not our life period. The Lord has strange and sometimes brutal ways of showing that everything is part of our life, the life HE gave us to live for Him. Whether we see it after a long road that ends with the admirable public choice to admit they are there and that you are choosing to fight them, or shutting down and getting angry and bitter and choosing solitude fight them on your own, at some point we all have to admit that those demons are there. Once we recognize them we can't move on until they are gone. Only then we start to live again. You can't install over a virus. I pray that I am right when I tell you that I really believe that this isn't another false start for you Dre. God brought all of us here for a reason....they say that at some point we consider ourselves lucky to get to these lows.
Yes - because without them there can be no truly authentic 'highs' - just more moments in which we deceive ourselves into THINKING we have our sh*t together. You won't miss those days once they're really over with, Frank. I promise you that. The name of your thread is "Letting go of the fears"...if only it were that easy. The truth of the matter is that we have to face them. Head on. One by one. And kick their lying asses off the map. The light gets brighter everyday
Amen to that. .
yeah it's wierd... I've been going for a month or two thinking I have just soured on people in general.... Now I realize that it took this to force myself to fight. Sounds kind of strange, but it makes sense to me. Sucks that it took all that, but hell I'm charming, I'm sure I will eventually be forgiven by all the people I piss off while in my whole little I-hate-the-world-dark period(not to be confused with the term "going dark" as copyrited by Michele Weiner-Davis, M.S.W).
Keep your head up Dre, one day soon we will all look back on this and.....
Keep your head up Dre, one day soon we will all look back on this and.....
...and thank God for the valleys that finally made us whole.
along with... we will look back on all this and say, that was the day that i realized how messed up i was up until that point. that was the day that i decided to live how i was created to live. that was the day that i decided that no one on this earth completes me, and decided to start walking with the only expectation of success coming from what God wants for me because i am choosing to give him all that he wants from me.
crap, now I have to do all that don't i?
crap, now I have to do all that don't i?
We ALL do.
Todays topic at church was about finality, and how God will make a way for you to get through whatever event you are going through.
It really tore me up because I've been avoiding / disbelieving that there is a finality to my relationship and my family being whole.
I also have been carrying a lot of guilt after Thursdays events with W because of some of the things she said, putting responsibility for everything on me, drinking, my depression and me not 'wanting her'.
I don't want to rehash it any more. I spoke to Ford and Phoenyx and Ian and I worked through the feelings, realizing that she should have been my best friend, and a best friend wouldn't have just let me hurt like I did.
So, I forgive myself, and her, and I accept that as far as she is concerned our marriage is over and can't ever be fixed.
I accept that.
I also believe that God will provide a way for me to get through this and move on to a better life. I don't know how and I don't need to know.
Frank, I am sorry you are dealing w/ all of these emotions. I do believe that you are right in setting boundaries w/ your wife, especially concerning her coming into the house.
Your Church sermon sounds right on track. I firmly believe that God will get you through this. HE hears our prayers and HE answers them...it just may not always be the way WE want HIM to. But, HE knows what is best for us....HE knows what the future holds for us.
When my exH first left home, I was devastated. I felt so low about myself. I did not believe that ANYONE could EVER want or love me. With the help of my pastor and my friends, I realized that while there were things I could have done differently in my marriage...there were lots of things my exH could have done differently as well. I finally came to understand that I HAD to give my marriage to God and let him have control of it. Once I did this, I felt such a tremendous peace and I was able to begin moving forward w/ my life. It was then that I was also able to look at my marriage w/ a new (and more accurate) point of view. Wow!
It was not long after this that God brought Bill into my life. And, you know the rest. God has blessed me w/ a wonderful, caring man and two new "bonus-sons"! I am happier than I have ever been! But, my happiness doesn't just come from Bill and my family....my happiness comes from within, as well.
As your subject title states....we all have to learn to let go of our fears. We have to learn to give our troubles to God...leave them w/ HIM...and trust HIM to do what is best for us.
Frank, I wish you nothing but the best! Please stop being so hard on yourself. Yes, there are things you could have done differently; but, there are also things your wife could have done differently. The important thing is that you are able to see those things, learn from them, and not repeat them in your next relationship, whether that is w/ your wife or someone else.
Take Care!
deb
Please stop being so hard on yourself. Yes, there are things you could have done differently; but, there are also things your wife could have done differently. The important thing is that you are able to see those things, learn from them, and not repeat them in your next relationship, whether that is w/ your wife or someone else.
That's always the hard part, realizing that there WERE many things she could have done differently.
And holding her accountable for them, or at least giving them to her.
And giving it all to God so I can move on.
....
I also have been carrying a lot of guilt after Thursdays events with W because of some of the things she said, putting responsibility for everything on me, drinking, my depression and me not 'wanting her'.....
I hope that last Thursday will be the last time you ever allow her to lay the lie on your conscience.
Sure, you could have done things differently but the same is true of your wife.
50/50 Frank.
Don't try to carry her half.
Don't try to make her carry it.
Just tend to yourself.
If you do that properly, you won't have time to worry about what she is or isn't doing.
That's always the hard part, realizing that there WERE many things she could have done differently.
And holding her accountable for them, or at least giving them to her.
It is not your place to hold her accountable.
Pick up your 50% and leave the rest alone.
Life - this one OR the next - will lay her half on her in due time.
That's always the hard part, realizing that there WERE many things she could have done differently.
And holding her accountable for them, or at least giving them to her.
It is not your place to hold her accountable.
Pick up your 50% and leave the rest alone.
Life - this one OR the next - will lay her half on her in due time.
What I meant is 'giving' her 50% of the responsibility instead of keeping it to myself. Not actually telling her she is responsible, just letting go of half the responsibility.
D13 just called me in the intercom to ask me where we were going for dinner tonight. I had told her an hour or so ago that she and I should go out for dinner tonight.
Me: I hadn't decided yet, why do you ask?
D13: Because Mom just called and she was kind of annoyed that you and I were going out to dinner and I didn't know where we were going. She wants me to come down to 'her place' and help them decorate their Christmas Tree.
Me: Well, why don't you go there and help her decorate?
D13: Because I want to spend time with you and she can just wait since we already had plans?
Me: Ok, I thought it was going on right now and we could do dinner later.
D13: I think they're having dinner now and will be decorating later.
Me: well where would you like to go for dinner?
D13: XYZ, how about at 6? (an hour from now)
Me: Ok, then that's what we'll do.
We don't have our Christmas tree yet. We usually wait until 2 weeks before and keep it till new years.
I asked D13 if mom told her what time to come and she said "later". I said that makes it kind of hard to plan and she said "exactly" in an annoyed voice.
I hope that last Thursday will be the last time you ever allow her to lay the lie on your conscience.
Sure, you could have done things differently but the same is true of your wife.
Yeah, as a 'caretaker type' I keep forgetting that.
D13 and I had a nice dinner. Afterwards (around 7 pm) she wanted me to take her to Toys R Us to 'show me something interesting'.
I suggested that we go another time because her mom wanted her to come by for decorating. She said that she wanted to go to the store instead. So we did and she showed me the 'awesome' Transformer toys from the original series. She has all of it down and was telling me about each one, their story and their personalities. One in particular was her favorite, and it was $9.99 so we bought it.
Went home, by now it's 8pm. Her mom called and she told her she was too tired to come over.
9 pm I went to get D17. We're talking on the way home and she says her mom called her around 8:30 to come 'decorate' and she told her she was going home and going to bed.
I tried to to get them to go spend time with her, but they won't.
They are old enough to decide for themselves, Frank.
Their relationship with their mother is not yours to manage.
Take it off your plate.
They are old enough to decide for themselves, Frank.
Their relationship with their mother is not yours to manage.
Take it off your plate.
(scrape, scrape) That was the sound of me taking it off my plate.
Frank,
There is nothing wrong with encouraging them to spend time with their mother. There is nothing wrong with making sure they understand that you are okay with them spending time with her. Just don't try to manage it. They are old enough to decide. My son is 18 and I still encourage him to spend time with his father. He is still concerned that I am okay with it. I am not managing his relationship with his father in any way, shape or form. Reassurance goes a long way when they feel so torn.
~ swl
Amy,
I'm a little behind ...but wanted to say you hit it out of the ballpark with your 12/5 post. Great!
Frank,
You're moving forward. That's awesome.
Hugs,
Spitfire
Last night before I went to bed I left a sticky note on the coffee machine: "W, please make only 4 cups of coffee if you aren't going to drink any" she usually makes 6.
I put one on the dog food can in the fridge "W, please let D13 feed the dogs, we need to learn our separated roles" Usually when W comes over she feeds the dogs. Other days D13 does.
When I got up this morning after she had been here and left, there was no coffee made and the notes were in the trash.
Well that's good then, Frank.
She's learning her role.
Nobody said she had to like it.
And it's not your fault she's having to learn it.
So keep pressin' forward doing what you have to do for yourself.
Defining borders is OK Frank. Stay the course. FIB
You know Frank, when my H first left he came over every morning to help get the kids ready. I of course accepted this help....but really it was just so I could see him and try to keep him involved with the family life. I thought that would bring him closer However, my DB coach and my IC said to stop this PRONTO. How could he want to come closer if he already had what he wanted....see the kids at his leisure and then go back to his apartment in the evening...leaving me with the fall out every night that it caused?
First of all, it's not quality time. Second of all it's awkward for the kids and them starting out the day that way sucks for them. Your daughters have already said they don't want to do XYZ because she doesn't live there anymore. Plus it's just the same old Frank doing the same old thing. She doesn't have to wonder or worry about Frank getting a life because you haven't changed yours one iota(sp?) I was told this was cake eating. This is not what a D or a S looks like. Give your wife a healthy dose of what this looks like. She sees the kids outside the home. That's her choice and you need to have your own space. She needs to wonder why you are protective of your own space. Do you show up to make coffee at her house? No Do you have access to her place? No Why are you giving her those privledges? She chose to not have them. Things started breaking at my house after H left. He is a handy man and once I revoked his key privledges I hired poeple to do the work. That p*ssed him off big time.... but you know what? It is a privledge to work on things on ones own home. He would say "it cost more money" Well, in return I would say, "well, we have to get use to the way it will be moving forward" I don't know of many D couples that keep their lives so intertwined...it was then and only then that I think helped my situation start turning in a different direction. I did none of this to try to get him back. I just got REAL. It REALLY has to change. I needed to REALLY start living my life as a single mother. IMO she should not be doing laundry at your house or anything else. She chose to give up that right. You've been status qou for to long now and you need to put a stop to it for yourself. It's what's best for you and that will ultimately be what's best for your kids.
Blessings
Frank, I think as you start creating stronger boundaries that lead to locking her more and more out of the house, the time will come where she may take legal action. You need to see a laywer now so as to see what kind of protection you need so that you dont get locked out of that house someday.
Frank, as many of us have stated multiple times and KerryK just stated again, you DO need to see an attorney SOON.
Yeah, I haven't 'locked her out' yet but I'm redefining boundaries which will start to annoy her more and more. I have a friend going through divorce and his lawyer is good so I'll set up a meet with him.
Just to chip on here…
I did too much for my X- H when we first separated. I loaned his money, stored his belongings, I did his washing and ironing cos he didn’t have a washing machine .. he kept his key and came and went as he pleased. He helped himself to food, slept over when he wanted etc etc.
On reflection I did this more for ME than him. I wanted him to be dependant on me. I treated him like he was unable to do anything himself..
Since going dark… I have found that he can manage to do his own washing, he has managed his finances..not as well as he could be he is surviving; he puts in so much more effort to see our son and the time they spend together is quality time.
I have also found that my X-H and I have become much more respectful to one another.
Nutty x
On reflection I did this more for ME than him. I wanted him to be dependant on me. I treated him like he was unable to do anything himself..
Me too. I'm changing that. She can do things herself and is doing them.
I'm not preventing her scheduled 'visits' right now and she really doesn't come and go as she pleases.
What I AM doing is setting more boundaries for when she IS here on her 'visitations'. And I'm using the 'Separated' word more and more.
It's real. We are separated. She wants a divorce. I don't but it's not my choice. She can have her divorce if that's what she really wants.
It isn't my job to judge or punish her. Just to be real.
It isn't my job to judge or punish her. Just to be real.
YAY!
So, a year ago I was bottoming out, crashing slowly. Right about now W had come back from her 'retreat', where the first guy would show up who 'paid attention' to her. She called me every day to tell me she loved me and how she told everyone I was her 'rock'.
In 3 weeks my would come back from Italy and begin her secret affair, and tell me she was done, couldn't live like this any more.
I've been kind of depressed the past few weeks. Life is going to improve and it's because I accept that W does not want to come back.
This is the day it begins.