We arrive here like a soldier who is wounded on the battlefield and wakes up weeks later in the hospital. He never really meets the people who saved him. He only knows that without their help he would have died.
How true Jeff....so true. And it was your comment Jeff, that, upon reading, I decided to do one more thread. I would never be able to list all the people here who have helped me without going over almost 2 years of posts. Some of you been with me from the very start...those I can list of the top of my head...Jeff223, DonH, ISLH, nicola, ford, WCW
Long termers include 25 years MLC..4kids..FaithfulH...among many
Some people who haven't been back for awhile...BBA, eg
Others have disappeared....S_O_T_S, tyler
If I didn't list you, it's just that there are so many.
I guess it is not much longer before I go with the wind myself. I, like others, don't think I have the emotional energy to take on any newcomers. Although I am entering a difficult phase of my life...I feel more or less like I am approaching the end of one phase...my marriage. I don't know if I will think differently later, but...time will tell. This post is simply, well, a catch up, since many here have followed me for so long, I feel they deserve to know what happened. Hence..a....? last thread?.
A True StoryMany years ago while I was in college, I was doing a procedure while in my research portion of my last year of college for my thesis. I was a biochemistry major and to graduate with honors, I had to do a year of research and write a thesis. I had spent weeks breaking down and preparing a small protein taken from the outer cell wall of a bacterium. The small amount of blue-colored material had to be 'pipetted' into a small container holding a thin gel (electrophoresis), where, a current would be applied over a day or so....driving the components along the gel at different speeds and leaving a pattern that is like a fingerprint. It's like making a fingerprint...similar to DNA analysis.
The gel has little wells on top that you pipette the material into:
http://www.bme.gatech.edu/vcl/SDS_PAGE/Background/Assets/ComboutWells.gifSince the gel is underwater, you must pipette your sample out slowly and carefully.
On the day that I was starting to pipette the material in (which took days to prepare), my professor walked over to me to watch over my shoulder. He was Japanese and a full professor at the University. I once was invited to his home for dinner, truly a cultural experience. He was grey-haired with a grey mustache and reminded me of either a kamikaze pilot or a samurai. The workers bowed to him and he mostly spoke in Japanese while in the lab.
As he stared over his glasses, I became quite nervous. Afterall, he was a full professor and I would have to defend my thesis in front him when it was time for graduation. With my hands shaking, the little blue protein sample began to miss the wells, and, with a sinking feeling in my stomach, my hard work slowly started to float away and disappear as it diffused through the water. Gone.
I turned around, expecting to see my professor prepared to castigate me for my poor technique. Instead, he stared at me, smiled and looked over his eyeglasses. AFter a minute of looking at me, he uttered something I will never forget:
.He walked away. One of the other doctoral fellows, visiting from Japan, a guy named Kenzo, was standing nearby and chuckling. I walked over and asked him to translate.
He smiled...looked at me and said, "Even the monkey falls from the tree."
We should all stop blaming ourselves......release the guilt and resentment....and go forward with life.
I am in the storm now. Update to follow.
FIB
That is a great story FIB.
I think a break or longer from the board might be good for you. It was here when you needed it.
Be good in all that you do, except fatherhood, be great in that.
I am in the storm now. Update to follow.
FIB
You can ride this out my friend but take some pics for the truly devastating can be beautiful!!
cire
To Jack...thanks for your post. Don't take this the wrong way, but, I sorta think of you like the DB father that you go to for advice on life. Your posts are always welcome. Stay strong with your piecing. As for fatherhood, it's what my life is all about right now. Stay strong..and thanks for all your support thru the years. You're a good man.
To cire....it's reassuring to know that you keep after me and check in.....know that I am always supporting you as well. Keep those links going. I still click on the Hoyt link when things get dark. FIB
My last post was on 2/22/08. It is now 3/19.
As posted...after filing.....I continued to show my W..in quiet ways...that there could be ways to avoid going thru this. As a reminder, my W followed me in the pouring rain to a gas station on the night that I was going to stay overnight at my buddy Paul's house, upstate. I stood out in the rain, consoling her, as she begged me not to sleep over (she believed, despite what I told her..that I was going to stay overnight with a woman....which I wasn't). Almost out of Casablanca...I stood there, outside her car door, telling her that this was in her hands....that...she knows what it would take by now to turn our M around...that bridges needed to be rebuilt between our families and the trust needed to be rebuilt. I went upstate...but came back in the wee hours.
Since this time, my W tried to spoon with me...typically coming downstairs on the couch at 5AM while I was dead asleep. Some people criticized me for allowing her to do this, but, my W had told me at one point that "on some level, it helps to ease my pain". I knew that this was being done FOR HER...and not for us...and that all would change after the complaint came in. In fact, my W spooned with me the morning that she went to her L's to get it.
One day, about 2 weeks or so, my W did something she hasn't done in.....months? a year? or more? She came to my office and brought D4 with her. Her reason? D4 wanted to bring me coffee. No. She came for another reason....and not sure why. To say goodbye? To see my office manager one more time? To check out if my practice was busier? The following day I got a text from her: I guess you could tell that I heard from my L that your complaint came in. I'm scared."
All through this time, I let her know DESPITE what others recommended...that I had to write those 30 evil things....that it was required by me by the State of NY....that is was the most painful thing I have ever had to do...that this was what she wanted. There was ample time for her to express desire to stop this...or express some regret...etc. None was forthcoming.
On the morning of her receipt of the complaint...she lied to me. She told me that she was going to her hair salon to cut a wedding party. Again, the lie seemed very real. She lies very well. I am not sure why she didn't just come out and say "I have an appt with my L to pick up the complaint"....especially since she already told me that her L told her it was in. When she came home, her eyes were red...she was withdrawn......
To follow. FIB
On the day of the receipt of the letter, my W went from soft questions and sobbing to utter anger and unmitigated rage. Red in the face...constricted pupils....screaming at me at the top of her lungs. At one point, I quietly told her that if she didn't lower her voice so that the kids couldn't hear, I would leave to go for a walk. She continued to yell. I grabbed my coat and went for a walk.
Some of the comments of the day or so after this:
-why am I doing this to punish her
-she said she was sorry
-I'll never take her kids away from her
-she'll fight me to her grave
-she'll contest this and drag it on for years
-that I'd better have a big bankroll
-that I was the liar..not her...since I said I would never take the kids from her
She went on to comment about a text I had sent her..that she never really got to know me. She said, "well I guess you were right....the man I married would never have done this to me". I guess her indiscretions and treatment of me for the last 2 years are forgotten easily. Funny...the only thing she has focused on in the entire complaint, of course, was the full custody comment.
Since that time, she has started a parenting 'pissing contest'. She has taken away my private times with the kids (bathtime, eg). I can't keep up with all the new toys coming in...the daily excursions....she's even brushing their teeth twice daily. Only you can all know whether this is her 'hurt little girl' now trying to be a mommy, or, whether her L has her doing this and they are plotting things.
Her anger has diminished. She doesnt' talk to me. She HAS made me dinner on two evenings and even asked me last night if I would like some pasta.
I never got a chance to have a 'final R talk' or discuss the complaint...she never lowered her tone and anger enough for me to even do that. I am keeping to myself, minimizing communication to avoid possibly being taped or dragged into something that she would use against me. I am being otherwise cordial.
I do not enjoin her in the contest.
I always say things like 'kiss mommy goodnight'.
I let her be "MEGA MOM" now.
I take care of myself for the most part.
As you know, my W is a hair stylist. Today, for the first time in 14 years, I scheduled an appt to get my haircut with someone else. Thanks for your continued support as I wind this down.
FIB
FIB,
I am glad to see that you started a new thread. Your a wise man and there is a lot in your posts that others can learn from(me included).
The anger and rage in your STBX is something that you cannot control. It sounds like you are doing your best not to get dragged into it. It's best for you and your children that you not get dragged into her drama. Of course everything right now is about you and how you are punishing her...how you drove her to this state.... I'm not saying you were a perfect H, but she is accountable for her own words and actions...not you. To me the small gestures that your W is showing, like dinner, is her trying to be cordial about the realities of your sitch. Hopefully she can keep the drama at bay, really I hope she can step up and do what needs to be done to stop the D, because it is best for everyone.
If your sitch ends anything like mine...cooler heads will prevail. Not to say the drama and the blame wasn't there but it was kept out of the business of D.
Keep your focus on your kids and take care of yourself. Your in my thoughts and prayers.
Take Care,
Scott
(((FIB)))
I am so very sorry that you are going through this. I wish that it hadn't come to this, and I know you've done your very best to ensure that it didn't. But here you are. And here she is - and she doesn't like it much either.
I do hope that things will settle down, and I think that they will. It will take time though, at least a few weeks, or even a few months. She must be very shaken up right now, and she is reacting in a way that does actually make sense when you think about it from her POV. Not that that makes it any easier for you.
You will get through this, and your kids will too. They will NOT be traumatized for life b/c you will not let that happen. This may be what your W needs to get help, which may or may not save your M, but could save her and her R with the children.
FIB, thanks for thinking of me at this difficult time.
Best,
Nicola
No problem Nic..and, of course, Scott....it is comforting seeing you here.
This morning, I went to meet my IC. She's great. She asked me to meet her in a park that I've never been to yet is not far from my house. It is a walking park..with animals...a pond....she wanted to show me it so that I could bring my kids there. So....MY COUNSELLOR...AND I....went for a walk this morning.
WOW. She's great.
My IC, like most, won't TELL me what to do many times...but...she feels strongly that returning to my X would be a mistake if it ever happened. We've been discussing my sitch now since the bomb. She feels firmly that she is either Bipolar II or Borderline. Eg,
After reading the above post, this morning, before I left to meet my IC, my W came to me with tears in her eyes and said, "I wish you were going with us." Again....I think she was afraid I was going to meet someone and perhaps she was trying to change the morning dynamic...or.....as my IC says: idealization/devaluation:
-FIB, you suck, I'll take you to the cleaners, better have a big bankroll....then...I wish you were coming with me. I thought my response out carefully. "So do I". I continued reading a short book with my D4 then left to meet my IC. I spent Easter by myself.
She went on to say that...for my W (or stbxw) to have a shot at saving this, she would:
-have to take an active roll in taking her meds, stick with it and stay consistent
-recognize that she needs help and get counselling
-desire to save the M
-undergo DBT....dialectical behavioral therapy
Most here know that my W (or stbxw)...shows no signs of doing anything above. Actions DO speak louder than words.
Wishing you all a Happy Easter. FIB
((((FIB)))) Your C does sound wonderful! I tried to get mine to go pole dancing with me but she wouldn't <g>.
You sound like you are doing the best you can with a bad situation.
Thank you bookpusher. Trying as best I can. I am simply now trying to be a great dad...not say anything to the kids that comes across in the LEAST or, could be misconstrued, as going against mom...thinking thrice before saying anything or texting to her. There will be no further R talk.
I know that some people would say "be careful or you'll give your W a message that you are done and then she'll be done too". That's old stuff and that's OK. When the destruction is this bad...and the trust SO far gone...then if they CAN'T do the work to get the M back, WE..the LBS...should think very carefully about what conditions we would 'go back to the beginning'.
Last night, I left my office around 6 and didn't leave the hospital until about 12:30AM. For the first time in awhile, I got hammered in the ER. When I got home, there was a salad made for me.
FIB
The salad was a nice gesture. I don't know aobut the "be careful ...or she'll be done too". It seems like we are always told to portray the message of moving on and getting a life so those two messages don't seem to fit.
I guess right now all we can be is good parents. You are doing better then me in the no talking department. My H is never brought up outside of the C but then, in C, things slip out of my mouth but my DD is a lot older then your kids (16 years). I don't run him down, just stuff like "I know he using an escort service". <sigh>
My H is still basically in no contact after 2 years. <sigh> I don't know which of our stitches is better.
Hey FIB,
Just an interesting thought I came across...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TODAY'S DOSE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LIFE
Life is a wonderful road, with twists and turns, obstacles along the way, dangerous cliffs to one side, beautiful scenery to the other. And always there are crossroads, places where you can decide what direction to take. And yes, sometimes we wish we could go back and take a different road. But we can't go back. We might sometimes be able to take another road to the same destination, but we cannot go back.
The quality of your life from this moment on depends entirely on the choices you have not yet made. In most cases, you have all the information you need to make the best choices and build the ideal life. You might choose to ignore that information, but you have it.
edited -Advertisements not allowed
4kids...thanks for your supportive comments.....and that you are still here. Bookpusher....agreed...my road certainly was a convoluted and bizarre one. The most shocking thing...besides the indiscretions...was how much she lied and also HOW WELL she did it. OMG...as a reminder...one night..she came home a half hour late and she told me that she went to pay a bill at a store which WAS CLOSED. When I asked her about it...she started to rummage thru her handbag to look for a nonexistent receipt.
Otherwise, things are quiet here emotionally in the house. My W is now MEGA MOM since receiving the complaint and I am being pushed out or 'excluded' from doing simple things with the kids. I can't get to bathe my kids now, which, was our time to laugh and kid around. She is going to places like the Stature of Liberty with them....books are being bought...things that should have been done in the past.
Sadly, she is ALSO not telling me updates about the kids that SHOULD be shared as parents (like planning to take our son to the doc..more to come).
I stay upbeat...most of the emotional pain is gone. I try and focus on rebuilding my practice, and, of course, I give every free moment to my kids when I can.
Thanks for all your support.
FIB
I think she is focusing so hard on the kids so she doesn't have to deal with her own issues.
My prayer is that even though her newfound attention for the kids appears to be manipulative from yours and my point of view(as well as masking some of her own issues as pointed out by ford), that it might make an impression on her how much fun it is to be with her kids and what blessings they really are.
FIB, you have been there for your kids and they know that. They want to enjoy the company of BOTH of you, and deserve that as well. This can be an incredibly tough pill to swallow when we as adults anticipate motivations behind the scenes that are less than admirable. I want to offer you the perspective of celebrating the fact that, if maybe only for a short time period, your kids get to have the mom THEY deserved all along.
Again, my prayer is that what would start out as manipulative would grow into a fondness that endures.
N.
Hi FIB,
Was reading your sitch. Naturally, I'm not far enough along to offer you any advice. I can, however, offer you a poem of sorts that I like to go back to from time to time.
You were the best of loves,
you were the worst of loves…
and you left behind several unintended gifts:
Through you I re-examined my
need (uh, desire?) for one significant
other to share my life.
You commanded in me an unwilling
(but probably much-needed)
re-evaluation of self, behavior patterns,
relationshipping, & a corresponding
change in attitudes;
i.e. growth.
I’m nicer to people.
I’m more in touch with my feelings,
the things and persons around me, life.
And, of course, a scattering of poems
(the best of poems, the worst of poems)
that never would have happened
without your disruptions.
Thanks.
FIB,
What a wonderful story.
I'm sorry to hear that things seem to still be moving towards D as I had hoped and prayed that it would not.
We've been here for 2 years and I will never forget those first few days; the pain, the agony and the desperation to save our M was our only goal.
While we may not have saved our M, it was not from a lack of trying and certainly not in your sitch. What you have gained is knowledge, strength, faith, courage, compassion and a sense of self. You have survived a two-year journey that not many men (other than those here) would have endured.
I may not have been on the bb much but like you have been thinking about those who have helped me get through the last 2 years and you are one of them. Some days are still tough but they are much better than they were 2 years ago.
I still pray that your W will wake up and see what she will be losing but unfortunately right now it is hard when you're sharing a home. Still following along....
Hugs,
ISLH
How sad:
I received a copy of a letter that my attorney sent to my W's attorney. I would do it verbatim..but..better not to. Her comments:
-she returned his response to him stating it was done wrong...that the first response was about adultery and that we were NOT claiming that....they we claimed cruel and inhuman treatment (1st f'up), so, automatically their first response 'fails'
-that when he AMENDED IT....we would promptly respond
-that my W's counterclaim for $10,000,000 for SLANDER is against the rules in a divorce action, against a state statute, is frivolous and is a $10,000 penalty
-that the defense for a claim of slander is the truth and that we can provide that
Instead of fighting for kids, they chose the punishment route. How sad. Why would anyone want to have themselves defended for slander for adultery?
FIB
More to follow.
Wow. I'm sorry things are getting so nasty for you. All the legal pyrotechnics from her side will eventually hurt her cause. Maintain the high road and it will gain you favor with the Judge.
Thanks one_light.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ethics/ny/narr/NY_NARR_3.HTMSection 130-1.1(c) of the NYCRR defines "frivolous" conduct as conduct which is (1) "completely without merit in law or fact and cannot be supported by a reasonable argument for an extension, modification or reversal of existing law," or (2) "undertaken primarily to delay or prolong the resolution of the litigation, or to harass or to maliciously injure another."
Section 130-1.1(a) grants the court the discretion to (1) award to a party costs and attorneys fees resulting from frivolous conduct by another party, and (2) impose financial sanctions on the party or attorney who engages in frivolous conduct. The total amount of costs awarded and sanctions imposed cannot exceed $10,000 "for any single occurrence of frivolous conduct." See
§ 130-1.2.
....and this is one of many reasons why people try to avoid a D. On the other hand, this is powerful stuff to keep you locked in codependence. FIB
FIB: I just want to tell you that on the day you posted the story and the "even the monkey falls from the tree" comment, it hit me right between the eyes and it has every day since I first read it.
I haven't fleshed out the full application of it to my own life yet but I know there is one because every single day, I hear it in my head.
There are a lot of outside things occuring in my sitch and things coming against my stand, things I have allowed and things that have come out of left field. When the smoke settles, I suspect I'll know firsthand how the monkeys fall.
Thanks in advance.
AmyC
that was a monkey? I thought it was your third eye.
silly me.
You guys...amyc...could you post a summary of you...YOUR sitch to me. Now that I am winding down, I would like to catch up with some others..perhaps do more reading and support than worrying about myself.
Yes..it's been an amazing journey for me. From crushing blow...to searching for answers...to trying desperately to save my marriage... getting hurt with infidelity..hanging for a final fight..then, finally, letting go of the hurt and saying goodbye to my M. Now....now...it is ME who is to be punished (?I). Twas my W who was unhappy..my W who loved me and 'wanted the romance back'..it was John, Craig and Zack who got a crack at it...now...FIB must be punished for this.
s'OK. I focus on my kids. I try and stay away from her anger..keep to myself...FIB
FIB,
Wow that would be a summary with an index. : )
I am sorry that it got to the Lawyer Knife Fight.
How much of this is her and how much of this is her lawyer seeing $$$ and leading her this way?
PS - Agree with Amy about the Monkey falling out the Tree. That is such a great story.
It occurrs to me, that every monkey falls out of the tree...but it is more important how that mankey lands. : )
It occurrs to me, that every monkey falls out of the tree...but it is more important how that mankey lands.
Nah.
I don't think it matters how the monkey lands, be it on his or her feet, on it's ass or on it's head. What matters is that the monkey get back up in the tree and keep swinging.
No summaries.
I don't have it in me, FIB.
I'm sorry.
...
OK that makes more sense and falls in line with my style of thinking Amy. : )
Can I try Amy?
There once was a lady from Virginia,
She's pissed Jack, so I'd let it be.
Not with me.
Sides, if I can get her to smile even a little I have pushed back the darkness.
Don't want her to avoid it though, that wouldn't be good either. I'm told to face it so we all should. Take care though Jack. Just hijacked to say a big thank you and bye.
Not with me.
Sides, if I can get her to smile even a little I have pushed back the darkness.
This thread is different than that of the previous poster in that over here we aren't all like those monkeys in the barrel that link their arms together trying to help that one last monkey out. That monkey that never reaches up.
And dar, if you had half a clue what you're talking about, what I've done and what amount of sh*t I've already kicked to the curb in my own mission to understand
MYself, and make changes, I might respect your snarky words. But be that as it may...
Same to you Amy... you also don't know half of what I've done to clean out my own personal junk. No need to be so angry. Really. Something to work on maybe?
die die die die die die die, let it die.
Who wants the last word?
Mine is: Dinotopia.
Sorry FIB.
FIB's thread. FIB's. Start another one, not here.
That's all I ask Jack. Notice the thread is locked? It's supposed to be dead. I'm not half as angry as Amy is and I don't see why she should be that angry with me. I've emailed her already today and she could respond to that instead of here.
Yes, sorry FIB for the hijack again.
philomathic
means love of letters
(it's my archaic word of the day on my calendar)
and
the UN has declared today the day of the rat!!!
just in case you were curious
I love the monkey story.
I only starting solving my problems when I figured out what the main problem was. And who was capable of addressing it.
I did that by:
Looking in the mirror.
Just in case anyone is listening ....
Jack..amyc..fig....and dar....funny how the Japanese come up with some powerful analogies. Yeah..even the monkey falls....
Recall that my W always said to me that "I knew you'd be adversarial"....and...."this reeks from your parents and family; their fingerprints are all over this."
Nah.
I filed. Me. Myself. Just me. No one else. Those statements were her projecting. Hey...why was she always accusing me of seeing someone? Because.......(see above)
Three was too much. I chose this. I said to myself, I can't live at home and not know if my W was..hmmm...let's just say in French "faire un pompier".
Can't live without trust. Can't live without knowing that your W expresses great pain and remorse about mistreating her H.
In prison, you don't get parole withour showing remorse.
I tried. Life is about risk and change. I risked...I stayed...I set a standard for myself. Lines were crossed over and over. There comes a time.....
Instead of this being a fair 'fight', it is clear that either, as Jack says, it's all about $$$$$...or...simply 'we'll finally screw FIB for asking for full custody."
Jack...imagine....my W was trying to spoon me only a few weeks ago. To think...................
FIB
...let's just say in French
i'm thinking I need an update...
FIB, you'll be fine! Like a hangnail it will be there, BUT...
GOD BLESS
cire
...I set a standard for myself. Lines were crossed over and over. There comes a time.....
FIB
There does indeed come a time when you have to look at the past, realise it is likely to be a predictor of the future and decide whether that is good enough for you. Sometimes you just gotta get up and move on.
That doesn’t necessarily mean give up … it means advancing in a different direction.
Good Luck FIB.
And I agree Nutty. This is a great place to be when this whole thing unfurls....when 'the bomb' comes. This place gives comfort and strength and sets you on a necessary path to stem the hemorrhage of pain. It gives you the tools to look inward at how you function (or malfunctioned) in one's M and how to create change.
But..how long do you stay with someone who can't do the same? How long do you allow yourself to be hurt and mistreated? Where does 'in sickness and in health, for better or for worse' suddenly become for them, "well...not too sick or not too worse."
Does there come a time when you'll be pulled under and drown if you don't let go?
What is codependent love, or, as my friend frank_d said to me, when is your R 'toxic':
1. Love - Development of self first priority.
Toxic love - Obsession with relationship.
2. Love - Room to grow, expand; desire for other to grow.
Toxic love - Security, comfort in sameness; intensity of need seen as proof of love (may really be fear, insecurity, loneliness)
3. Love - Separate interests; other friends; maintain other meaningful relationships.
Toxic love - Total involvement; limited social life; neglect old friends, interests.
4. Love - Encouragement of each other's expanding; secure in own worth.
Toxic love - Preoccupation with other's behavior; fear of other changing.
5. Love - Appropriate Trust (i.e. trusting partner to behave according to fundamental nature.)
Toxic love - Jealousy; possessiveness; fear of competition; protects "supply."
6. Love - Compromise, negotiation or taking turns at leading. Problem solving together.
Toxic love - Power plays for control; blaming; passive or aggressive manipulation.
7. Love - Embracing of each other's individuality.
Toxic love - Trying to change other to own image.
8. Love - Relationship deals with all aspects of reality.
Toxic love - Relationship is based on delusion and avoidance of the unpleasant.
9. Love - Self-care by both partners; emotional state not dependent on other's mood.
Toxic love - Expectation that one partner will fix and rescue the other.
10. Love - Loving detachment (healthy concern about partner, while letting go.)
Toxic love - Fusion (being obsessed with each other's problems and feelings.)
11. Love - Sex is free choice growing out of caring & friendship.
Toxic love - Pressure around sex due to insecurity, fear & need for immediate gratification.
12. Love - Ability to enjoy being alone.
Toxic love - Unable to endure separation; clinging.
13. Love - Cycle of comfort and contentment.
Toxic love - Cycle of pain and despair.
FIB
Hey FIB,
Glad to see you are holding strong. Having to just let go and accept must be tough. As you already know, you're not chopped liver. The fact that you went through this ordeal and held fast like the needle to the pole is evidence of your strength and character. God has something big in store for you. He needed you to learn something from all of this. The next thing that comes along will be more wonderful and fulfilling than you can even imagine.
When you put it like that FIB, My relationship is kinda TOXIC. But then I knew that. I think that is part of what holds me on .. wanting and trying to make it better!!
I have been apart from my H for about 8 - 9 monthes now.In that time, I have learned so much and grown hugely! But you are quite right, there does come a time when you realise that no matter how much you do you will never be able to fix things, especially if the other person doesn't want to.
How did you know when that time was?
was there something particular that happened .. or did you just wake up one morning and think enough is enough?
I am going to do some reading on codependancy.
Thankyou so much for that!
NC
ouch FIB, your points are so true, I see my life of the past 8mths in those posts about toxic love and lines crossed.
There is also another word for that: enabling
When you try to "save" that person so much that you don't let them face up their mistakes or sweep them under the rug and hold your breath hoping for a miracle from a person who is unable to grow a spine and do things right even if they hurt.
Thank you for that post, FIB. It is a good reminder to me of what I need to look out for in my next R. It is a good description of my M.
To all..this has been a very long road. Trust me...I remember the day of the bomb quite clearly. Always will. I believe what is written with the toxic stuff. This is NOT failure..it's a lesson in life. To think otherwise is victimizing oneself. It took me 2 years to learn that...and I am still learning.
If anyone goes back to my earlier posts, it was a sad time. Someone who saw babysteps when his W was having sex with another man. I don't like that word anymore. I don't think there are babysteps...and I also don't believe anymore that it is selfish to expect that someone apologizes to you when they've hurt you...nor to accept the burden that is required to regain the trust and make good on the vows they broke.
Today....now...I speak from 'the outside'....from a place that many people don't want to be. It's a place that people fear here and, understandably so.
I am a plaintiff.
My W is a defendant.
The picture of me with my arm around her in front of the Matterhorn in Zermatt with the St. Bernard in front of us...is down and packed.
The huge wedding picture of us is....under her dresser.
My pillow....is on the couch downstairs.
My wedding ring....is in a box in our walk-in closet.
The gentle caresses....the intimate moments of being entwined with her under the covers...the smell of her hair as I drifted off to sleep in it...the warmth of her back against my chest....are gone....leaving behind only anger and an abyssmal cold. The earth is scorched and love segues into....indifference.
Time is a thief.
Yes...I love my wife..and if you think filing for divorce makes that go away, well, it doesn't. And I will miss her..or..should I say I will miss the way we were.
But..love ISN'T supposed to hurt...not like this, nor , inflicted upon us like it happens to so many here. So...to Nutty Chick....why? Why did I file? Why did I leave the masses here? Why did I do the 'abominable' thing here and leave the 'standers'? Why did I choose the DB path less travelled?
The answer is complicated, but, in some ways easy. The complicated answer lies in almost 2 years of posts here which you can read. The simple answer is....I came to the conclusion that my M had become destructive to me as a person and that for me, the hope for reconciliation was, in fact, a form of denial. You can't 'fix' your marriage by yourself...and life is too short to be hanging onto someone who has no interest in you.
To make it even simpler, I think there were three events that told me that there was something wrong with my W that, without commitment to medication and intense therapy, would never allow us to heal:
- the castigation of our nephew, age 5, who lives across the street, to the point of denigrating him verbally in front of our son (his cousin) and writing a letter to the Superintendent of Schools to have him 'banished' to the front seat of the bus..even though his brother, age 8 wanted to sit with him. Ironically, my W is his godmother
- my W arranging me to babysit for our kids the night she had an 'outing' with OM....and when I arrived 10 minutes late, she yelled at me for delaying her to go out
- after discovery of OM3...she pushed my wedding band back on my finger..in front of our children, bringing on a reaction of joy from my S7..proceeding to give me 2 powerfully written cards of wanting the M back..wanting our life back....and then continuing with OM3. On 12/2 I found that she 'googled' his name..but..not just on google...she went into 'MySpace' and searched his name, implying that she was looking for intimate information on him. Not only did she violate my trust again, but she violated the 'visual promise' that she made in front of my son
I can vouch for the destruction that divorce causes. Not only the hurt but the financial pain as well (I hear the forensic atty. that will at one point review my practice will cost me $20,000).
I chose this. I asked myself...would my children suffer MORE....if I stayed with my W...and I said 'yes'. I cannot live, here, without knowing where my W is with whom. I asked myself could I live without trust? I asked myself, would my W...EVER ..have the strength, courage and integrity to repair this? You know my answers to these questions.
Finally, last night, I was reading Dr. Seuss to both my kids when, near the end, my W came upstairs and plopped herself in the bed. I arose to 'go to the bathroom' and went downstairs to take my place on the proverbial couch. It was not long before my son came downstairs.
S7: Dad...why did you go downstairs? Aren't you going to go sleep with us and mommy?
Long pause.
Me:...no...S7..
S7: Why????
And he bursts into tears.
In great pain, I reached over and pulled him into to me...and held his head to my chest...and I brushed his hair back and stroked his forehead...and thought very hard.
Me: S7...tonites daddy's night to sleep downstairs. I know this seems sad, but, I love you very much...and so does mom. This has nothing to do with you. You're a good boy. Daddy will always be here for you....and I will always...always love you.
I pray...that ...some of you...may find the reconciliation that you all so desperately wish to have.
God bless.
FIB
Thankyou so much for this post.
I found amongst it 3 of the reasons that I filed today.
But..love ISN'T supposed to hurt...not like this,
I came to the conclusion that my M had become destructive to me as a person and that for me, the hope for reconciliation was, in fact, a form of denial.
I asked myself...would my children suffer MORE....if I stayed with my W...and I said 'yes'.
I don't feel filing is an 'abominable' thing to have done. I feel that to have carried on standing and hurting and letting my son watch me waste away mentally, physically, and spiritually would have been abominable.
I am walking away with dignity and a peaceful heart. My H is a sad man. He is no longer the person I married. If I met him today, as he is, I wouldn't give him a second glance. Like your W he needs a huge amount of psychotherapy. Like your W he has a grubby little band aid holding him together. Like your W he will, no doubt wake up one day and realise what he has lost and the damage he has done.
And of course DBing will go on. Because it is about more than saving a marriage, its about a way of life and being a better person. It’s about human behaviour and compassion. It is about becoming the kind of person you hope to meet one day. It’s about being proud of yourself and the decisions you make.
You can and should be proud.
God Bless FIB.
NC x
Nutty....you may know my friend frank_d here. Frank_d suffered quite a bit in trying to save his M. I respect him. At times when I would have thrown in the towel, frank kept me going. It's easy to say now, using the
retrospectoscope, that I should have filed 15 months ago.
No.
I learned much from frank_d's insight. He taught me a lot about myself. Sadly, he struggles now within his own M. But..Nutty...some of the most powerful pieces of advice or support can sometimes be, well, of few words. So, I share with you a short email that my friend frank_d wrote to me:
Nutty....you'll be OK. And, I agree with you, it's taken me a long time to realize that, filing for divorce as a 'member' of the divorcebusting community....is not abominable. In fact, it may be lifesaving.
HUGS.
FIB
PS Nutty....keep to the high road. No need to defend yourself anymore....forgive...and stop the self-blame. Continue to listen...no more anger....move forward. I support you. FIB
In the fall of 2006, October, while pumpkin-picking with the kids for Halloween, my W told me that she felt 'smothered'. Well, now, I feel smothered by her anger and hate. Without going into heavy details, my son became upset last night when his cousin from across the street, after a nice evening of hanging out with him, told him that his younger cousin 'tattled' on them...with regards to playing an army video game. My son became very upset.
Recall that this younger cousin was the one involved in the bus fiasco....that my W tried to have him forced into one seat on the bus and then wrote a letter to the superintendent. Ironically, she is his godmother. Of course, my W takes an offensive position against my sister's 5 year old son.
I took my son upstairs to talk with him...to try and teach him how to handle himself and his cousin...and to try and avoid my W's poisoning my son against his cousin (she advocates telling the school bus driver, the principal, etc whereas I try and teach him to handle himself, stand his ground if he is being pushed or shoved, and that he is older, taller and should have courage to stand firm and take care of himself). My W followed me upstairs to the bedroom and interjected from time to time, but, some of her comments I could support.
As I began to leave, for the first time, I said something that I was 'afraid' to say during my 'save the marriage mode' last year. "XXX....please...teach him to take care of himself...not to plant seeds of anger".
She got really pissed off at me...I got a 'how dare you say that to me."
This morning, as S7 got on the bus, my W thought I was smiling or laughing at her as I waved goodbye to S7. She stormed past me and slammed the door in front of me, then, came back in:
"what are you angry about?"
"How dare you laugh at me while I am in pain. How cruel....it shows how you have a cruel streak deep inside of you."
???????????????????????????????? I said nothing.
FIB
FIB
sometimes we need to save ourselves...
i looked at it this way
just like in lifesaving classes...I wanted to save the person I thought LSS was
but
you can't saving a drowning person until they stop struggling
they will pull you down with them
so
you have to wait
and watch them struggle
sometimes
in their flailing...they even get to shore
maybe not the safest shore
maybe not the shore we chose
but they reached a shore of sorts
I needed to save me
to make sure that I was around to teach my boys the lessons they need to learn
there is no dishonor in saving yourself
there is no dishonor is admitting you are not equipped to save anyone else
we have one life to live
with grace
and dignity
we are children of God
and
God already suffered for our sins
he does not require us to repeat that
FIB.
Maybe a 180 for you is saying what you feel?? What have you got to lose? (I don't imagine you to be the type to say anything vindictive or hurtful ... just what you feel (as above))
One 'complaint' I would have about my STBXH is that .. he would never say what he felt .. he always tried to keep the peace for a quiet life. This was harmful in two ways. Firstly, it made me have very little respect for him and secondly, he stored loads of anger and resentment up. Saying what you feel and getting things out in the open is so much better and healthier. Yea, sure, your W may not like it, It may rattle her cage cos she must be so used to you 'keeping the peace' But it may well earn you a little respect from her in the long run and it is a good lesson for your son to show him that it is OK to stand up for what you think and feel is you do it in the correct manner.
NC
FIB,
Great post from fig.
As hard as it is to separate, it is excruciating to live w/ someone who can't stand the sight of you. I lived through that too, and it is agonizing.
FIB, what she accuses you of is what she is seeing in herself: you are her mirror, though you don't intend to be. She is acting in a way that is selfish, cruel and disrespectful and she assumes that everyone can see that and will pass judgement on it. Well, let her pass judgement on herself. You are doing a good job, no - a great one.
Take care of YOU,
N
FIB,
You are weathering a heck of a storm now, and it sounds like you're really doing well.
The old adage from our athletic days is that adversity reveals character. If that's the case, you're learning much about your wife's character, as many of us have learned about our own.
The care and protection you show your children in the face of this mess also reveals your character. Of course, we're not surprised, because we've known all along that you are a good man.
Continue weathering this storm with the knowledge that, like any storm, it eventually passes and the clear skies will return.
Blessings,
Bill
and
there is nothing prettier than a beautiful piece of driftwood
or seaglass
or my mother's hands
all things that have weathered storms
only to be different and beautiful in ways we never knew
Touched and understood. Some journaling later. FIB
Frustration....my sister called me today. She lives across the street. My W did not work today..nor the other day. Today, she saw my STBXW carrying boxes out of the house and into her car.
I hope it is not any of my personal belongings. Now...I wonder if her L told her to quit working. FIB
time to take inventory.
did you ask her what she was baby steppin out to the car?
Not knowing what is going on is hard to cope with.
Presumably your W knows that your sister would tell you what she was doing. Could it be a mind game?
Act don't react. Do you have access to the house so that you can remove your property?
Thinking of you and hoping you are OK.
NC.
Yes, FIB has access, like me he still lives with his W.
like me, his W has no money and can't afford to move out. So it is curious to wonder what she would be taking 'from' their house, and where she would be taking it 'to'.
I vote for tax / business related documents because she would think (in her warped mind) that FIB must be hiding something!
Sometimes I think we're addicted to the drama on the board...
Well...I had a legitimate check of what the boxes were. My W came in last night after taking the kids to the movies. I worked til 9P. S7 fell asleep and I carried him in. I reached into the box to take a feel. Of course, my W hit her key fob to beep the horn.
The box contained.......our wedding photos that I BOXED last year, after I learned about Zack. As I carried S7 in:
W: I'm sure you don't want any of those pictures anyway.
I remained quiet....what was I supposed to say?
Bizarre note: Our bedroom was cleaned. Her dresser top was spic and spanned and ALL OF OUR WEDDING PHOTOS WERE DISPLAYED, CLEANED..SOME REFRAMED....all aligned ao ALL could be seen.
BTW...she went out last night until 12:15.
The above are observations ONLY....not hope...or looking for input.
FIB
STRANGE !!
Strange indeed...I have stopped trying to figure that one out. FIB
OdditiesI've stopped trying to figure things out. I've obviously stopped looking at things that some here would have labelled in the past as 'babysteps'. Some oddities:
- as mentioned above, my W has cleaned off her dresser top and rearranged our wedding photos in PERFECT condition; reframed some small loose ones
- if I get to the MBR first to sleep on the bed, she will still get into it with me in it...but..maintains her distance
- Yesterday:
Me: My sister (who lives around the corner) asked us to have dinner over her house tonite at 6
W: Oh..I was going to take them to my mother's house for dinner.
Me: Well...why don't you take D4 and I'll take S7 with me. He'd love to play with the boys (my nephews)
Later...
W: So..when your sister asked 'us' over for dinner, I don't suppose that included me.
Me: Always did; but....would your father and mother invite ME over for dinner right now?
No response (none was expected).
Living on the outside,
FIB
FIB
nothing constructive to say
just wanted to let you know that you are not alone
and
you didn't fall down Alice's rabbit hole
much luck to you
FIB.
Interesting babysteps. Always good to keepa record to look back on.
What happens if she gets into bed first? Do you normally get in and keep your distance?
I wonder if the fact that you have filed has taken away some of the 'pressure' I only mention that as that is what has happened to me.
Interesting developments - keep us posted
NC
Living on the outside,
FIB
The important word... "living"
cire
Living indeed Cire.
To Nutty....she was spooning me almost nightly prior to the service of the Verified Complaint. Now, anger and hostility (see below). She still cycles to some degree...between utter anger/rage...to cordial civility. She does things to 'garner acceptance' from the kids rather than nurture them (again, see below). I think filing actually, took the pressure off of ME. I was trapped between DB'ing/trying to save my marriage and deciding whether or not to file for D. You see...all my attempts to DB only enabled her. As time went on.....she continued to be open to the advances of younger men and it became more obvious that I was merely a trapeze net for her.
In the words of Drew here, it's not that I wanted to move on but that I HAD to move on.
To fig....thanks...and thank you for staying on with me.
To cire...as always, staying strong.
Yesterday:
My son came home with his report card yesterday. My W didn't tell me about it...I had to 'find it' ( I don't play that game...I text her with all S7's and D4's game times/practices). She also dumped a bill in my pile....leftover hospital bill for $112 that is in HER name that she never paid. It was sent to collections...with her name on it. I put it back in her pile. She hasn't contributed to any household bills and, now, during tax season...she will have to pull some of her weight.
When I got home:
Me: S7....would you like to have a catch?
W: (interjecting). I never got to see him yesterday and I'm taking him out.
Me: OK (S7 starts to cry).
W: OK..you can have a short catch (which never occurs)
W: C'mon D4...let's go
D4: But mom...I don't want to go.
W: Then stay home (said brusquely)...(W rushes out with S7)
I then discovered S7's report card which was STELLAR. My W 'absconded' with him I guess to celebrate that without telling me and left D4 behind in a crude fashion. I scooped her up and WE had a catch outside. Then, took her to the grocery store to let her pick out her dinner. I grilled up a burger for her and she picked out broccoli and cheese. She called it 'our honeymoon dinner'. Dunno where she got the term from. LOL.
W left about 6'ish and returned about 9:15PM. I congratulated S7. He crashed with me ( LOL..I snuck upstairs quickly so I could get into the MBR since the couch was killing me). We talked in the dark....about how proud I was of him...how important it was to get good grades and work hard.
Somewhere in the middle of the night, my STBXW came into the bedroom and, in a dreamstate, I recall her lifting up my hand from him and throwing my hand aside.
FIB
To Nutty....I have stayed as much as possible on the couch. Throughout this, she has, at points, refused to not sleep 'in her bed'. Whereas at one point I began populating my side of the bed with pix of me and the kids, I have taken a handful down and put them on the nighttable next to the couch. I also bought a new alarm clock for downstairs.
She has NEVER been afraid of sleeping in the bed with me...another oddity. Granted...we have a kingsize bed and since the bomb, the distance between her back and me has always seemed like miles of 'No Man's Land'. She probably never stopped the kids from sleeping in the MBR bedroom as a way of putting distance between us and also, needing substitute 'comfort'.
One of my friends, totally ground-based, talked with me on the phone the other day and I totally agree with his input. His 'theory' is that they still love us but in a different frame/level...that they then go out seek to fill their emotional gaps/holes. They aren't ready for D nor wish to have it at that moment....thinking that they can keep their finacial/domestic support going while they dip their toe in the water elsewhere. When they get caught and, in my case, file, this completely undoes the plan...their status quo....and they then get ANGRY WITH US for upsetting the boat. They probably never really thought we would go thru with D and when it happens, WE become the target...the cause for all of this.
FIB
FIB
who said it was her bed???
Just asking
because if the sofa was killingme I would make a stand (I just got a tempurpedic bed...the luxory is almost painful!!!)
Congrats to your son
and
how sweet of you to snuggle him up like that
what an amazing dad!!!!
.
One of my friends, totally ground-based, talked with me on the phone the other day and I totally agree with his input. His 'theory' is that they still love us but in a different frame/level...that they then go out seek to fill their emotional gaps/holes. They aren't ready for D nor wish to have it at that moment....thinking that they can keep their finacial/domestic support going while they dip their toe in the water elsewhere. When they get caught and, in my case, file, this completely undoes the plan...their status quo....and they then get ANGRY WITH US for upsetting the boat. They probably never really thought we would go thru with D and when it happens, WE become the target...the cause for all of this.
FIB
,
Funnily enough ... My H received paperwork for the divorce on Saturday ... Today he phoned and asked if we should leave the divorce till son 11 reaches maturity Okaaaay, what would that achieve??? No, he didn’t say I want to work on the marriage, I love you; Just… can we delay the divorce till I am absolutely certain that I have another comfort blanket. (or words to that effect)
Your friend is spot on.
But it is interesting in a warped kind of way the changes that initiating a divorce stir up.
NC
Indeed Nutty...in fact, I saw more 'babysteps' and more fear of losing me after filing than at any point. Sadly, tho', as you have mentioned, there was NO EFFORT at trying to heal...NO EFFORT to stop the D....NO EFFORT at communication or discussing any of our issues. She simply 'spooned' me at night to, in her exact words "alleviate the pain on some level."
Well, love isn't supposed to hurt this badly...as mentioned above.
Recall what my L said Nutty...that when women fall in love with OM, they pull the trigger and D their H's. When men fall in love with OW, they keep the W around.
Although many would read that comment by your H as a 'babystep', staying married means 2 and only 2...commitment...trust...etc. Anything short of that, well.........
FIB
She simply 'spooned' me at night to, in her exact words "alleviate the pain on some level."
NC
Apparently tonight FIB had arranged for a cleaning lady to come and give him an estimate on cleaning the house. He had told his W who said that if any cleaning lady showed up she would call the immigration service, the police, whatever.
The lady showed up and his W refused to let her in the house. After he tried to reason with her she called the police and said he was 'intimidating her with his size and he shoved her'. FIB was calm and the police saw that she had no marks or bruises and left. However, she told them a story of being 'afraid' of him.
Also, when the police came he was playing catch with his son. Because of their initial belief there was domestic violence they arrived in 3 cruisers. So, the kids and the neighbors were witnesses to this event.
FIB was calm. But he's a bit shaken up, believing she'll try to get him kicked out of his house. I would find that difficult for her to do, and his lawyer is the best so anything his W might do will backfire in her face.
She has crossed the line into insanity.
Oh no that is awful. His poor son must have been terrified.
It is frightening not knowing what to expect one day from the next. How do these people we marry change into someone so unrecognisable. The main difficulty I faced in the early days was feeling such a fool for not ‘seeing’ what my H was really like. I felt I couldn’t trust my own judgement on people. But on reflection and with research I understood that brain chemistry can change, and so the person changes. What you end up with is not always what you started with.
I am gutted for FIB; he doesn’t need or deserve this.
NC.
Poor FIB
she is a lunatic
hopefully the police will see that she filed a false complaint and FIB can use that to his advantage
FIB,
I hope that these recent events give you some more clarity thashould be proceeding with your divorce. I know first hand that reconciliation is hard (and sometimes not even acheivable) when both people are actually committed - but when one is behaving like your wife, all you can do now is save yourself and your children.
From following your sitch, I can tell you are a fine man, and that any woman would be truly blessed to have you in her life. You deserve to be loved in return. Please do not let this woman make false accusations and try to take away an ounce of your dignity.
I'm sorry to sound so angry, my heart hurts reading the way you are treated. You deserve so much better.
(((((Hugs to you))))))
TH
She is getting some coaching somewhere.
FIB, be very very careful. More than one guy here has been the victim of fabricated charges of abuse and restraining orders.
ASk your attorney for advice. And weird as it sounds, consider one of those "nanny cams" so you have some proof that you didn't touch her if something like this happens again. (Check the laws in your state first. though - illegal in some)>
Ellie
Hi...I've spoken with FIB. His wife filed a false police report and the next day filed for an order of protection. At the intake, she requested that he be escorted by police out of the house and that his STBXW get temporary custody. Horrible false accusations were made against him...He won a small victory...the judge awarded the OP but not that horrible request.
FIB responded with a counterclaim and was immediately awarded an OP against HER. There will be a hearing.
Believing is faith.
F4M
oh jeez! how awful, my prayers his way))))))))
Yes, please tell him thoughts and prayers from the BB are with him.
FIB responded with a counterclaim and was immediately awarded an OP against HER. There will be a hearing.
F4M
Gosh, It is so much worse than I thought. Sounds like she is trying to regain control of the situation after FIB filed for divorce.
Wish him well from me, I miss his posts, such a grounded decent guy.
Nutty
Holy cow - this is CRAZY.
I'm praying for you FIB.
Quoting FIB:
The insanity continues.
I hope you understand that there is no bigotry here. Many of you may recall that my W converted for me before we got married. I hoped that if we were 'one'...we would be closer and inseparable. This became a thorn as time went on. I tried to meet her needs...adding lights in the house....adding lights in the backyard....letting the kids get a present from Santa. We always and FREELY celebrated Christmas and Christmas Eve at her parents.
When she 'came back' in December '06, after she confessed her one night stand, she wanted to return to Catholicism. For Xmas, I bought her a beautiful diamond pave cross...and...also a medallion that I searched out over the internet. The medallion was a silver circle on the outside...a gold Star of David..and a bronze cross in the middle...shape similar to this:
**EDITED - Advertisements are NOT ALLOWED.
I wrote her a moving note how we could still be inseparable....that what I needed then were not what my needs were now...that I wanted to keep my family whole.
She never wore it (I actually got if for her as a keychain or to hang in her car).
This morning, she was wearing it on her chest. Yesterday, she accused me of keeping the kids from her during Passover....we celebrated it at my sister's house...the one she charged at the other day and told her to 'stay off my property'.
This is really f'd up. Bizarre. It keeps getting worse.FIB
BIF
I recall the love is toxic comment. It seems that, in most divorces, there is one stable spouse and one who is the 'combatant'. I can understand now how an innocent spouse can be dragged into a horrible divorce battle.
How could anyone do anything less than try to defend themself when attacked?
I appreciate one of my friend's comments...that many S's in this situation 'marry down'. There is a mismatch. Then,if one of the S's steps outside the M...the foundation of trust is broken. If it cannot be repaired, the person who was 'cheated on' may file. Throughout this, I think..or the theory is...that one S never believes that this will happen. They fear D like we do...perhaps don't want it as we do, but, they still need to search for something outside of the M that they feel is missing within them.
When the other S either discovers more things..or..finally gives up and files, this destroys the safety net. The wayward S never believed that it would happen. They then get angry...forget their contribution...and choose a path of vindictiveness, anger and retribution against the other S. I would even wager that some of them still love the other S, yet, after burning so many bridges, they feel they can't come back but must continue destroying the other S in order to survive.
Dunno.
Just some thoughts.
BIF
i got a quote today sent to me by my sweet baboo
it says:
Love looks through a telescope; envy looks through a microscope ~ Josh Billings
I think it is much easier to see the small picture when we wish things were different, when we are dissatisfied.
when we see with love we see the bigger picture...we see how the small annoyances are just that
small
This may not be the proper forum for this but something that is so critical for each of us is to not stop in the process of getting to a place where our growth isn't halted. Our spouses, no disrespect intended, in various degrees, have not only halted their growth as individuals but regressed in their emotional development.
My primary concern is to protect my children. I am not as worried about myself. My decisions though impact more than just myself. I have to become both a mother and a father to my children while my spouse is not able to make decisions that are always in the best interests of our children. In fact, I consider what my spouse would've wanted me to do or what she has said in the past when making my decisions. Believe it or not, it really helps since I got used to weighing decisions with her counsel.
FIB, I don't think you ever made a mistake marrying your wife. She was someone very special to you and probably still is. Unfortunately, mental illness, which I apologize for my armchair analysis, has robbed her of you and your children. Sadly, it as robbed her of herself as well.
It is important that we do not use justification to rationalize our situations. I apologize to me4faith that I am politely disagreeing with your friend about "marrying down". I know that we have had our egos severely damaged but I believe we need to put things in perspective without the need to demonize or "downgrade" our spouses. They have already hurt themselves far more than anyone else could ever do. They had admirable qualities that attracted us to them and our decision to marry them.
The fact is we find ourselves in a very bad place and are looking for some reason or purpose this could be happening. We may never know but we can either become better people from this or let it poison us.
I agree that some marry down. it's just a simple fact that not everyone brings an equal amount to the table.
if you find your spouse limiting your personal growth due to their insecurities, using manipulation to control you, and cheating on you. chances are, you married down.
it's not a bad thing to realize that there are bad people out there. sometimes you don't find out they're bad till you marry them, lol.
I think labeling behavior such as cheating, abuse, lying and worse as mental illness or mlc is the ultimate in using justification to rationalize one's situation.
yes virginia, there are some bad people out there..
I prefer to think of them as 'damaged'. I don't think they are necessarily 'bad'.
agree with frank too, damaged is an accurate description
sometimes though
there really are bad people
life is full of choices and sometimes people made bad choices for the wrong reasons
bad people
you're right Frank, Damaged.
I only have 21 words in my vocabulary so sometimes I use a word less descriptive of my meaning.
I'mma BAD speeler, writer.
sometimes though
there really are bad people
life is full of choices and sometimes people made bad choices for the wrong reasons
bad people
Get out your ice skates Figgy....hell has truly frozen over.
I'm agreeing with you....again.
HI ANGEL! I'm agreeing with you also. Your fist post that said "Bad People".
yeah there are some bad folks out there, some damaged, some both.
trick is to no go down with the ship when either is the skipper.
(heyya Jeanette)
It all depends on the choices people make. I was taking exception where it said "many S's in this situation marry down". There are those that make decisions, fully cognizant of their decision and could care less. If we are talking MLC, and our loved ones really fall into that "diagnosis", are they really "bad" or "damaged"?
Using words like many, most, almost all, or anything similar to group people has a tendency to overemphasize or mischaracterize people. Some people are bad but to say many are marrying down can be translated as saying that most of our spouses are "bad" people. I agree they are making bad choices or decisions but I would not say they are bad people. In some cases, their judgment may be impaired.
Some of my friends on this board and some who are posting in this thread have reasons to feel that their spouses are bad, not just bad at making decisions or selfish choices, but people that have little morals or ethics and maybe never did.
Unfortunately, after going through what we have experienced, it is challenging not to become "damaged" ourselves.
I'm going to elbow my way in here with my 2 cents.
I am of the mind that we all start out on a level playing field, but somewhere along the way bad people, MLC'rs, whatever, all have been damaged. So yes my Sweet friend figgy there are Bad people but some damage must have occurred somewhere along their path.
For sure
we need to make sure the damage that those people have caused don't make us DAMAGED!!!
i chose to think
work in progress
I think there are instances where we have perhaps married down
but this was due to our own self-esteem issues
I certainly married down the 1st time (2nd with LSS was a whole different ballgame) but the 1st Mr ex was a high school drop out who had no ambitions, lied, stole and beat the crap out of me
bad person
definitely beneath me
and pretty much anything else that breathed
not rewriting history
it was that way from the beginning
he was/is a bad person
he could change
but he would have to chose to change
he was good with who he was
yuck
jeanette are cats and dogs living as friends??? Quick...we need to disagree before the world tilts on its axis
I'm reminded of a prayer that I heard and has stuck in my mind since:
"Lord, help me forgive those who sin differently than I do..."I heard another interesting 'sermon' recently, about how we do many things, in most of our cases here - get married - in spite of the problems that are right in front of our faces. Here's the original link: (Notice: This is a Christian minister with a Christian message. If you don't like that kind of thing, I'll summarize below. Jump to about the 1/3 mark where he speaks of marriage - he is standing by a flip chart at this point)
http://www.northpointministries.org/player/player.jsp?occurrenceID=2391The point he makes is that many times we never really get answers to satisfy all our reservations about something before we make a decision to move forward with a decision. There's something else that comes into the picture that just makes all those 'issues' very small in proportion, so we take the step anyway. In most of our cases, the thing that made all of our issues look small was love. It's easy, after the fact, after 'love' has now seemingly departed, to look at all those things we minimized as huge roadblocks we never should have passed.
Guess what? - there's no Mr. or Mrs. perfect out there. Everyone has shortcomings that love will cause us to gloss over and take the step anyway. We're wiser, sure. Yet don't be so brash as to think that it won't all happen again.
Food for thought.
N.
me4faith,
Do you know if and when FIB plans to come back to the board & his thread? Please let him know that we are all concerned for him, and please tell him he is in my thoughts & prayers.
Thanks,
TiredHeart
I spoke with FIB this morning. He's doing better and he's kind of keeping off public boards since he feels his anonymity / security has been compromised.
His W has calmed down a bit. That's about it.
I wish to agree with many here. I think, that, perhaps, the 'alien'..or 'sick'...or 'MLC' terms....may be labels that help us rationalize the very painful position that we are in with regards to the disruption in our marriages.
Having been at this for awhile, I believe that several facts are clear:
- many of our spouses have occurences in their past that have caused some 'damage', or, cause them to carry unresolved issues forward that affect their mental health
- that, under duress, they make suboptimal or illogical decisions
- that some of these decisions cause many people pain
Is my W bad? Hmmmm. Does filing a false police report make someone bad? Does lying make someone bad?
Or does it just make them selfish and a liar?
As 4kids intimates above...are WE really to blame? In many ways, I choose to believe that perhaps we didn't totally 'fail' as spouses, but, we failed to know ourselves well enough that we CHOSE THE WRONG SPOUSE. Our
spouse-o-meters were wired with the reverse polarity.
Sometimes, I don't fear the divorce...or the possibility that my STBXW will try to have me arrested falsely...but....I fear whether or not
I will learn how to choose better in the future if I am fortunate enough to fall in love again.The real difficulty..is to learn enough about yourself....to grow enough....to be able to see if you are in one of those 'some marriages can't be saved' categories....and save yourself from years of pain and 'toxic love'. I know one thing is true...."only YOU can determine that".
BTW,
FIB's W HAS calmed a bit....and his MIL was nice to him today (dropped the kids off at his house), but, that seems worrisome. She continues to try and intimidate him by 'barging in on him' when he is having time with the kids.
M4F
If this thread closes, FIB would want you to continue here:
Under SiegeM4F
Tomorrow, 4/25, would have been FIB's 9th wedding anniversary. He always planned on renewing his vows for his 10th...always talked about going to Paris with her....
Toast.
M4F
Here's to the past the present and of course the future!
(tips a hearty glass)
The past...
remember fondly
The present...
it will become the past (see above)
The future...
make it the best and pray for the rest!!!
Thinking of you my friend
cire
The pain of what is lost...well, I can only say that it fades with time. Very much like the pain from a surgery I would suppose, in that eventually it goes away completely and all that is left behind is a little scar that reminds us of a painful moment in our life.
As for the rest of the ponderings on this thread lately, I can't really participate.
I still choose to believe that this phenomenon was an emotional shift in my former spouse. It's too depressing to look back on twenty years and somehow believe that all those moments were lies. Something happened inside her and suddenly what once mattered, stopped mattering. What was once important, was suddenly unimportant.
You can't forsee that kind of thing.
I guess I'm saying, I didn't make a bad choice.
She did.
The good news for FIB, and others who are moving through the very difficult final days, is that life gets very good again. And much more quickly than you would think. I'm as happy as I've been in a very long time. More importantly, I am as at peace inside as I think I've ever felt.
Yes, there are details of this new life that are worrisome at times (money and kid schedules top the bill here!), but there are also great opportunities to move in directions you might never have gone. It's a real chance to change your course and maybe move it back in line with where you always saw yourself heading one day.
If you're reading FIB, stay strong.
I'm glad she is calmer lately. Know that there will still be rough spots, but maybe we can at least hope that the pettiness is done for a bit.
Blessings,
Bill
prayers your way FIB)))))))))))
I agree that some marry down. it's just a simple fact that not everyone brings an equal amount to the table.
if you find your spouse limiting your personal growth due to their insecurities, using manipulation to control you, and cheating on you. chances are, you married down.
it's not a bad thing to realize that there are bad people out there. sometimes you don't find out they're bad till you marry them, lol.
I think labeling behavior such as cheating, abuse, lying and worse as mental illness or mlc is the ultimate in using justification to rationalize one's situation.
yes virginia, there are some bad people out there..
Having lived though my W's MLC to - wonderful marriage and having seen my exW continue on down the MLC path 7 + years later....................The labels MLC and Mental Illness DO fit.
1st - I have not talked to a single post MLC person who did NOT admit to Depression - which IS classified as a Mental Illness.
2nd - You can swear the sky in Purple all day long - it doesn't make it purple. If you don't believe in MLC - why are you posting here?
I guess everyone who's ever been in a Mental Institution was just "faking it" for a vacation - right? Mental Illness is just justification for bad behavior..................so Charles Manson is perfectly sane - just a bad person?
Yes there are some people who will blame their bad behaviors on MLC or any number of things - but my exW never thought ANYTHING was wrong with anything she was doing and did NOT use any excuse other then she "fell in love" and wasn't happy in the M................Never did she blame MLC or Mental Illness.
I still choose to believe that this phenomenon was an emotional shift in my former spouse. It's too depressing to look back on twenty years and somehow believe that all those moments were lies. Something happened inside her and suddenly what once mattered, stopped mattering. What was once important, was suddenly unimportant.
In the surgical world, one of the most difficult things you can do is 'bump' another surgeon. Bumping a case means that you have a patient that develops a surgical emergency and that you must move your patient ahead of a regularly scheduled case. Bumping another surgeon's case typically occurs when a patient arrives in the ER with a true emergency ( a perforated colon, eg). Bumping another surgeon:
- may disrupt his day and/or cause him to be late to office hours
- delay the operating room schedule
- annoy the anesthesiologists who like to go home early
What's the point? I had to bump another surgeon once....a long time ago. He became so angry (think about it...because I HAD A CRITICALLY ILL PATIENT), that at one point, he raised his fists to me and blamed me for this as if I did it to make it to a Broadway show on time (not).
Today, that same surgeon and I talk, we assist each other...we are friends.
It's an amazing thing how some of our spouse's cannot forgive. They turn their hearts away from us. As mentioned above, the things that are good in us....the good memories...like a computer...are 'minimized' and they begin to allow negative 'popup' windows to dominate them. For many, they turn against us as if we were the enemy and embark on a vindictive punishing journey.....punishing US for their unhappiness.
As bworl said, I cannot believe that our entire marriage was bad...'a lie'....etc. I CAN believe that I brought home a disk with a virus....set to erase our marital harddrive........
M4F
PS...FIB's STBXW continues with intimidation. He was watching TV last night with both kids since he hadn't seen them all day. His W literally 'plopped' down on the couch and 'roped off' D4 and began talking to them while they were watching a movie. She went out with D4 later and FIB put S7 to sleep then crashed in the MBR. When he awoke, his STBXW had, again, gotten into her side of the bed and was not wearing PJ bottoms. Anger internalized. No more in the MBR.
Today is my wedding anniversary.
FIB
(((((((((((((((Fib)))))))))))))))))))
and I never do those huggy things for people
you must be pretty special
Fig...thank you. I am doing pretty well today, considering. People won't recall but last year, my W bought me an Armani Exchange shirt, grabbed me, held me, cried...and when I asked why...she said the fear that 'there wouldn't be one next year'.
I guess she knew better.
I knew that this would not be easy, but, never did I think that my W would be THIS nasty. Never would I have believed that she would call the police on me and file a false report.
Such is life.
FIB
FIB sorry that it has all come down to her waging a war against you beacause of the choices she has made, as to it being mental or MLC really doesn't matter at this time.
To file a false resport on you is down right evil, I hate when I read post like yours where they use the police as a revenge tool.
I do hope that you can get it straighted out with the cops.
I do urge you to be cautious and to double check your computer if you are logging on to this site at home, please check for a keylogger program also.
Call me a crazy but please be careful, and on gaurd with her, I'm a cynic but I read too many times how the male bs is kicked out of the house or escorted out by the police because of the ws wickeness and false lies.
Always protect your self first
Fig...thank you. I am doing pretty well
I knew that this would not be easy, but, never did I think that my W would be THIS nasty.
In part because your kids are still young...................I've seen and heard things out of my girls that I never thought I would, because I would let them have their way.
You still seem to have a hard time accepting that this is not your W....................my W said and did things during her MLC that I never thought she would - and there are things she DOES NOT remember during that time. But having thrown D22 out at 18 for breaking rules and some of the nasty stuff that spewed forth from her mouth - I was probably better prepared then most (3 PMS's at once made me wish for a Man cave)...............but it was still rough.
You know - I forgot what day I got married to exW on......................I know it was in Dec..............but that was a long time ago.............