W told me last night that she was going to see L Thursday to "Get things going and to see what her options are".
I am in a lot of pain today and don't know what to do. I quess this means she is fileing and getting ready for separation. I told her I was not leaving the house and she said she was not either. Could be a dog fight, I hope not.
I feel so bad for the kids.
My last thread locked up. Can someone please copy it to this thread please.
Can you add all my threads to this thread?
THANKS
Hi Tree,
Not sure how to post the links, but I am thinking of you, man. You have been trying so hard to manage through this, and it is really hard, isn't it? I feel your pain and am with you. We are not alone in this, even though it is probably one of the most awful experiences a person can go through. Keep writing and practicing self-care wherever you can. Let others support you too. Are you getting counseling for yourself? It could be a useful support.
Be strong. We're here for ya.
Purr
Try not to fight her. Its a bit of a balancing act between protecting yourself and your kids, but also supporting your wife if and when she makes a decision to separate. I know its a bit radical to think that you would support that decision, but you either support it or fight it.
Here is a picture for you. A bull-fighter standing in the ring with his cape. As the bull charges him, he grabs the bull by the horns and tries to wrestle the bull to the ground. (Its messy) OR... As the bull charges him he smoothly turns his body to the side so that the bull charges past him (no inujury to the bull-fighter).
Its like you can fight the fight, by actually letting the anger and pain just brush past you. Its happening but you are in control of the situation. It doesnt leave you an exhausted bloody mess.
I promise promise promise that you are going to be OK. Better than OK you will survive and be stronger and life will be good again.
Not sure if the bull-fighter analogy helps. Let me know if you can draw a deeper analogy out of it!
Tree:
I'm sorry to hear about your pain. Go with it, acknowledge it to yourself, and to others too. Go at your own pace, but you will emerge better for it. Your healing, and the well being of your kids,are what is critical here.
Your W is going to do her own thing, and you can't control that. You can control your reaction, and the future direction of your life. At times like this it's easy to rail against the universe as unfair, and see ourselves simply as victims. Try to resist that temptation. Instead, create your life one step at a time. There will be setbacks, but try to go forward after you fall down. Abandonment by those we love is one of the hardest things to deal with; you are doing admirably well.
Thanks for all your support guys. It is hard being in this house knowing she is going to the L this afternoon. I know I have no control and must start accepting this but it is very hard. Very lonely. I am seeing a Psyc but only once every three weeks. He basically says that I am in the middle of a Sh** storm and I have done nothing wrong. He asked if my marrage was a fairy tale marriage or miserable and i said it was pretty miserable for a while so he asked me to start thinking about what I was really losing if we broke up. He said to set some goals and timelines. I guess that is a way of saying to start to accept it and I have no control. My W said no more MC. Believe it or not I feel really bad for my W. This has to be a horrible decision that she is making and she is just not thinking properly about anything. I really feel bad for my kids. All I can do is sit and wait for the responce from her L. I have an awful feeling the OM/EA is pushing this and giving W some pressure but I will assume nothing. God bless and thank you for being there for me.
Tree:
Glad to hear you are getting counseling. Your C sounds like a wise advisor. I'd caution against rewriting the history of your marriage. If it was miserable, acknowledge that. But don't rush to that conclusion to try to soothe your current pain. That's easy to do, but I'm convinced it will not help heal you in the long run. If YOU feel you are losing something/someone you treasured in any way, go ahead and acknowledge that. Maybe the past does look different now that you've done some reflecting. Maybe it doesn't look as rosy now as it did at the time. I know I feel that way with my own sitch. Still, I feel a sense of loss and must work through that. The danger for us LBS is we rise above our feelings of loss as a way to avoid the pain. That provides some momentary relief but will not help us in the long run.
Also, ask yourself, hard as it may be, what your failures were i the marriage. You sound like you have handled the current crisis with her very well, but look deeper. What could you have done differently in the marriage? You cannot change the past, but you can learn from it to have a better present and maybe a better future too.
We just had a long somewhat productive talk. She bought up the R and I told her that I didn't want to go there but she continued. I found out that every problem in the world including world hunger, US deficit, Global warming are all because of me. It's amazing. She is in such a fog and can not get out of it. She said she was going to talk to her L today about "next steps" not to file but I don't know of any next steps except that. I think what she wants is a physical separation. Again I am assuming.
Boy this is hard! I have to pick myself up and get back together.
W had to cancel her appointment w/ L for some reason, I think to drive one of the kids somewhere. What do you think?
Tree:
I think you need to detach more. It's damn hard, so I don't say that lightly. I've gotten better at it, but still have my moments when I try to get inside her head. Guess what? Those moments always leave me nowhere. You can't get inside her head. It's clear she's in a fog and there's nothing you can do about it. You get to decide how long you are willing to hang around. You don't know when, or if, this fog will lift. Most people here say it does lift, but who knows what your W will be like when it does lift? Maybe she'll want a new R with you, maybe she won't. Neither you nor anyone else can know that now. All you know is what you feel today. And then tomorrow comes, and you get to decide all over again.
Live YOUR life without her. Do what you want to do, and don't try to figure your out. You can't. You can read any of her actions 100 different ways and you'll never know which, if any, are correct unless she tells you. Detach.
Detaching is very hard but I am doing the best I can. We both went out last night and she got home after me and i did not ask one question last night nor this morning. She said she would be home at 8:30 for the kids and she got home after 11:00.
She has been lieing more and more lately.
She keeps reminding me she dose'nt love me that way any more, I am convinced she is trying to convince herself of this. I don't know when her L appointment was rescheduled bit I think she wants to go straight forward with the D or at least a separation of some kind. I know I am assuming to much.
S12 and I are off to Richmond VA (6hrs) for a soccer tournament today for the weekend.
Tree:
You are a smart guy. You see what you are doing, and you know it's not all healthy. That's good. Many people can't see the unhealthy aspects of their behaviors, or even know why they do some of the things they do. I'm with you all the way on detachment being oh so hard. I struggle with it myself, and can't yet bring myself to run to a L to get my own D moving along as fast as possible. So, W and I are in limbo. We don't talk. I'm out of the house living my life. For now, detachment for me means not wondering what she is up to and trying to live my own life as best I can.
I feel what you and I are feeling is normal. If we really do love someone, we can't just walk out cleanly in a short while. It's a slow process, one that is cyclical. There will be times when we are sure we're done with them, that we're sick of the mess and the hurt they have caused us. And yet, there are other times when we still wonder if it could work with them, that we do love them, and would like them, at least as we imagine they could be, in our lives. We don't want the current manifestation, but we would like to believe that some transformed, better relationship is possible. The big question, of course, is whether we are just dreaming or whether that will occur. Only time will tell. In the meantime, go enjoy that soccer tourney and do the best you can. I'm traveling myself and will be away from the boards for three days, so take care and take it one moment at a time.
I was away last weekend, going to VA this weekend and going to VT next weekend. What do you think about this? To much time away? To much space?
It breaks my heart to think that my W will be hanging around in Bars or with OM. I can not assume but this is what is running through my mind.
Tree,
Is it too much space? No. space and time are what she needs. How does it help you to be around her when she drags you into the void? Besides, you're going with your son.
Do your best to not think about what she's doing or with whom. If you don't have a nice thick rubberband, get one. Wear it on your wrist and when you start thinking about what she's up to...snap that puppy, HARD. It might help you mind off her and put in on your bleeding wrist (depending on how hard and how often you snap it).
Take care.
You are right! She needs lots of space and I can not be dragged into her dark hole anymore. It is not healthy. I got the rubber band Graceful Grace. I just spoke with her for the fourth time today (all her calling me) and asked her if she would join us in Vermont next weekend for Easter and she seemed to agree to it. That would be great.
I hope you are well, I think of you often!
We made it safly to VA. Talked to S12 for 7 Hrs and had a lot of fun. Talked about Mom a bit. Any advice on what to say to a S12 about MLC?
Treeman, I responded on your thread in Separated...
Any advice on what to say to a S12 about MLC?
Don't say anything to S12 about MLC. It portrays a negative image of his Mother and that can be disheartening to a 12 year old boy.
Try to keep this between you and W for the moment. If he ask, tell him your going through some difficulties but that you will work it out between the two of you. Reinforce to him that it has no affect on your relationship with him and that his M and you will both be there for him.
Don't act like a victim or portray her as the bad person in this in front of him. It affects a child's sense of security and loyalty to both parents. You need to be very sensitive about this.
Well said and good advise. It's kinda where I am at. He was just asking why M has been so mean to Dad and sometimes to the other kids. I must be very careful and think through what I say and show. In the beginning they were catching me crying and that was very disheartning for them.
Thanks for your thoughts.
DB Team Mates,
I am thinking of letting a Dobson letter fly. I am ready and prepared to suffer or enjoy the consequences.
Your thoughts required:
W is ready to go to L to take next steps so I want her to feel good about it. I am going to refine this very closly but here it is. She told me Thursday that she does not love me anymore, again.
Please send your comments.
Treeman
"Dearest Sally:
Thank you for the talk in my room Thursday morning, I thought we made great progress. You have really helped me get to a different mindspace. I did not realize that you have been thinking of this for the past 20 years, as you stated...it must have been terrible to carry that around for such a long time. I realize I have no right to assume how you feel, after all they are your feelings, not mine.
I do not want you back in our marriage if you are truly not "in love" with me. It is unfair to both of us.
I prefer that we are together. But at this point it sounds impossible. So, I will not stand in your way if you want to move on. I will no longer expect you to come back, and I don't want you to feel that you have to.
I hope that we will continue to, as always, have a deep friendship. I will always be there for you no matter what the issue.
Much love,
Treeman
Tree,
Consider your goals here. If you truly believe that delivering that Dobson letter will bring you closer to your goals, then deliver it. If it seems more like it will push you away, then maybe it's not such a good idea.
From what you've written in the past week, it sounds to me that she would be more likely to walk out the door.
Consider these things you have written:
He basically says that I am in the middle of a Sh** storm and I have done nothing wrong. He asked if my marrage was a fairy tale marriage or miserable and i said it was pretty miserable for a while so he asked me to start thinking about what I was really losing if we broke up....
I have an awful feeling the OM/EA is pushing this and giving W some pressure but I will assume nothing....
She is in such a fog and can not get out of it. She said she was going to talk to her L today about "next steps" not to file but I don't know of any next steps except that. I think what she wants is a physical separation....
W had to cancel her appointment w/ L for some reason, I think to drive one of the kids somewhere. What do you think...?
She has been lieing more and more lately.She keeps reminding me she dose'nt love me that way any more, I am convinced she is trying to convince herself of this....
I don't know when her L appointment was rescheduled bit I think she wants to go straight forward with the D or at least a separation of some kind. I know I am assuming to much....
I was away last weekend, going to VA this weekend and going to VT next weekend. What do you think about this? To much time away? To much space?....
It breaks my heart to think that my W will be hanging around in Bars or with OM. I can not assume but this is what is running through my mind.....
Please notice that one of the most prevailent themes in here is what you think she is thinking. That's called mind reading, or assumption, or fantasy, and is all definately not a good thing to be doing. You are assuming that you know exactly what she is doing, and you are then assuming that it is all directed toward you, and you are then taking everything she does as personally directed toward you. By doing so, you are destroying any PMA you could possibly create.
Further, you seem to be constantly wanting our opinions about how you are doing, and what we think about what you are trying. It seems to me that you are trying very hard to do things that she will notice to get some kind of reaction from her, and when you don't get any, you get anxious. Your style of what you call GLA seems to be just about the furthest you could be from that. You are looking for reaction, not doing things for just you. You are attempting to show her that you are having a fun life without her, instead of having trying to have a fun life for you. You are trying to control her by thinking you are not trying to control her. Everything you mention that you do you seem to weighing against her reactions.
You might want to think about your psych. He offers you two alternatives by which to gauge the success of your marriage... "fairy tale romance, or misery..." Is he kidding? How many marriages are somewhere between those extremes??? Is he implying that all those marriages are failures??? Do you want a C who is Pro-Marriage? Is you psych Pro-Marriage???
Finally, when your W says she wants to see her L about finding out about next steps, and that she doesn't mean Divorce, BELIEVE HER!!! What don't you understand about looking for Baby Steps? She is telling you that she is not looking for a divorce, and she is telling you that she is quite confused about what she needs to do. Then you write that you think she's looking to finalize the divorce. What's that?
Stop taking everything your wife does so personally, and get the F*** out of her head. You have no idea what she is thinking. You have no idea what she is doing when she's not with you. Stop imagining what she is thinking and doing. Anything you think is your imagination, is in your mind, and of you react to it, you will be reacting "out of your mind", and you will not appear attractive. Stop measuring the success of what you call GLA against her reactions. If you are doing it to get a reaction from her, you are not GLAing. You are attempting to control. Bluntly, GLAing is about making a happy life for yourself such that if your marriage was to dissolve, you would still have a life and would still be happy. It has the added benefit of making you happy and satisfied and energetic and appearing much more attractive than you do when your are mired in self misery. One hopes that such attractiveness will be noticed by others, maybe even your W, so that you may happily move on in your life, away from your current situation which is not working for anyone.
Figure out what works for you and do more of it, and stop doing what is obviously not working and is making you nuts. You cannot control any of her actions, and the more you try the more frustrated and unhappy you both will be. A Dobson letter is control. It is imposing your judgement upon her. It is telling her that you are right and she is wrong, and that she had better come to her senses and act the way you want or leave. Is that what you really want? I think not, or you would not be here. A Dobson letter is an LRT technique. It is the last resort. It is what you try when you think you have tried all that can be tried and you want to give it one more shot. But a true LRT is much less judgmental and controlling than a Dobson. A true LRT letter is written out of love and release, not out of frustration and control. It is truly telling her that she is free and that you love her and respect her, and want nothing but the best for her, whatever that is. It is written with no expectations. It is the epitome of "if you love something, set it free...."
I read your stuff and I see how hard you work. I see so much of what I did wrong in what you are doing. Stop working at your marriage. Work on you alone for you alone. Take care of your kids. This takes time, lots of time, and it will work out in time. Not necessarily in your time, but in its own time. Leave her alone and give her the time and space to let her figure out what she needs to figure out. Stop talking to her about any of this. If she wants to talk, listen empatheticly. If you want to say something, count to 25 before you open you mouth. If you still want to say something, see what I said about goals in the first paragraph of this post again. Stop expecting her to do anything. Keep your eyes open for positive baby steps, but expect none. All the while, keep truly GLA-ing. Go away, join clubs, ski your butt off, take a course, join the local volunteer ambulance or fire company. Take long walks. Volunteer. Get a second job just to fill your time. Develop more hobbies. Buy a Harley. Get hairplugs. Do Yoga. Play golf, or tennis, or squash, or go flyfishing, or learn how. Just make sure you do it for you, and expect nothing from her.
I'm just ranting now, so I'll stop.
Good luck
z
Z,
Good to hear from you.
"Finally, when your W says she wants to see her L about finding out about next steps, and that she doesn't mean Divorce, BELIEVE HER!!!"
How did you get the impression she didn't mean D. She did mention D when she was talking about next steps.
Thanks for your thoughts, they are well taken.
I got that impression when you said in your post on 3/12.
She is in such a fog and can not get out of it. She said she was going to talk to her L today about "next steps" not to file but I don't know of any next steps except that. I think what she wants is a physical separation. Again I am assuming.
Next steps are finding out options. Next steps could include separation, knowing what her rights are, learning about child support and custody, or any number of other details. If you are assuming that even thought you say above that her meeting is "not to file", if you insist on assuming that she is lying, and that she IS meeting to file, then you are going to continue to drive yourself nuts, and you are going to continue to distrust her based on your own assumptions and fears.
As you have less and less ability to affect the situation according to how you wish it to be, you are allowing her to control your thoughts and your PMA by continuing to assume that you know what she is doing and thinking, and frankly, for the most part is appears you assume only the worst. You are making your life hell by either continuing to unsuccessfully attempt to influence her, or by reacting to your assumptions about what she is doing. The more you try to do something to get this situation under control, the more out of control you are getting.
Just chill for a bit, bro!!!
Enjoy VA, and then enjoy VT. And don't worry about what she thinks of your trips. Just enjoy the time away from the chaos, and don't bring it with you.
z
Great advice Z! I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the Dobson letter. I considered sending one to my H, but something didn't sit right, so i love what you had to say about it.
Cool ideas for GAL too!
Thanks Z. Your words are wise. I am driving myself nuts. I do feel like I am detaching a bit better now. We are having a great time down here. Really enjoying myself and S12.
Essie, how are you?
Got home from S12 soccer in VA for the weekend. We had the GREATEST time. It is so nice to hang out with normal people and see how families interact.
Got home at 6 and had a nice dinner with W and family. Nice conversation and then I headed off to my room to create more space and keep house nice and quite and easy. My goals for the next week are no fights or arguing. Let things fly by. Don't think to much and don't assume based on fear. Things can not be as bad as I think all the time.
Well, one positive is we had a spectacular weekend!
Had a very nice morning. She asked me what I was reading and I said "the good divorse". She said nothing. She also announced that she was going out with the Society for Separated Woman" tonight for St Patty's. I was dumb enough to ask with whom but that was all.
Another day on the roller coasted but at least no Arguments.
12 points for Treeman today:
No arguing today: 3 points
Wife Noticing my book " The Good Divorse" (Ahorns): 3 Points
Workout coach (whom I have not seen in weeks) "you look great" 3points
2 Hours workout, endorphins flying: 3 points
I feel great and I am starting to accept! Detaching is hard.
Nice work, Tree! Sounds like you did really well with your getaway. You sound quite a bit more focused on looking after yourself and being good with you.
I kept re-reading Z's comments because I felt that they really apply to me too. You are doing great today. Hang in there Tree and keep going.
Best,
Purr
Got homelast night and feel into a trap. I was looking for a basketball schedule and foung reservations for two to the Bahama's in April. Well you can guess what happened. I had a fit. She drew me right in. Turned out she was making reservations, without my knowledge, to go to the b
Bahama's with my son for spring break with Her brother. Very expensive trip. Turned out she never made the reservation but she got what she wanted with a perfectly placed note and a rise out of me. I think she is just getting trying to get me excited and get me out of the house. i have been advised by all not to leave the house. She also said she was going out with the SSW until 8:30. She got home at 11:00 and could not understand why she was tired and had to go back to bed this morn. Crummy Day, I can not wait to see my Psyc today at 11:00.
Tree:
I'm back from my travels and getting caught up with you. All I can do here is echo Z's advice. You are trying too hard to please her/read her mind, etc. I've been there, done that, and it doesn't get you anywhere except frustration and anxiety. Z is absolutely right--you can't know what's in her mind. Believing is seeing. We believe something, then we look for evidence to confirm it. Look at your reaction to the reservation. Step outside yourself and ask, "Why did I respond that way?" Do this in life generally, not just regarding your wife. I never used to do this, but I am trying to get in the habit, and it makes life better in so many ways. It can still be painful, but that too is better than being on autopilot.
As for your wife, who knows what she is up to. You cannot control her. If your M is over, it's over. No one can force her to stay married to you. At the same time, remember that a decision is not a decision until we take action. Talk is just that. I wouldn't ignore talk but if your W is in MLC she may be saying a lot of contradictory things that in her mind make perfect sense at the time she says them. Give up trying to predict the future. We humans are very bad at that. I've started reading Stumbling on Happiness, and so far I love it. It applies to many situations in life, but it clearly helps me deal with the roller coaster I'm on. We try to predict/control the future, but most times we will be wrong.
Take care. I hope your appointment today was/is helpful.
Welcome back man! Thanks for the note. I am having a bad day today, the first one in a while. I think it is mostly because of my reaction to the reservation and my confronting her. Also because she didn't come home until 11PM last night when she said she would be home at 8:30. I really feel like I am losing her now but mostly because of my actions.
I realize I can not control her, I know I am trying to hard but all I want to do is straighten this thing out and get it back on track. It is laso very hard to be in the same house.
Psyc appointment went well. He thinks she is Manic Depressed and told me not to believe a word that comes out of her mouth. Don't ask questions because you will only get very hurtful answers. He also said I was the lightning rod for all her anger and issues and not to accept that.
This is really hard!
Tree:
Wow, your psych. pegged my situation exactly! We are in similar spots in many ways, so all I can say at this moment is I feel for you. I was in a down spot a couple weeks ago, but fortunately it passed after a few days. We never know when these down days will come, and we don't know how long they last. But, my experience is that they do pass, or at least get better, if I am busy with other activities and remind myself that I, and only I, am responsible for my own happiness each day. It doesn't depend on W, kids, boss, etc. It depends on me.
Keep posting; it helps to vent on these boards, even if the answers aren't clear. Sometimes we need to just sit with the hurt, and not look to run from it. Face it, feel it, even welcome it as a way to understand ourselves and life in general. I keep trying to ask myself "What is the lesson(s) I should be learning from this?" The answers aren't always clear, but I've been separated for several months now and really tried to work on myself, and I take great pride (though not in an arrogant way) about how far I've come. No one can take that away from me, no matter what happens with W.
Try reading Pema Chodron. She's really insightful about dealing with the pain of life rather than running from it. And keep asking yourself what you need to learn to grow as a person. And hang in there. This is damn hard.
My W just told me she is on her way to the L to file.
She has no love for me and wants to start dating.
WOW!!!!!
Sorry to hear that Tree, its really a big blow to hear someone you love saying things like that. Many people will tell you this, but its not about you, she isn't doing this for any reasons but her own.
And the world is a strange place, try and keep the PMA and GAL going, you never know, things may change for the better *8)
Wishing you peace
Brad
Tree:
All I can say is that I'm so sorry to hear this news. It's a heartwrenching blow, no doubt about it. Keep us updated on how you are doing. You have to let her go and find a way to carry on toward a new life for yourself. The road will be long and hard, but you can do it.
Thanks Bruce.
Man this is tough.
We are going down to my office now to work on splitting assets.
We are talikng about a separation agreement now.
remember tree its still not finalised only filed. i dont know what state you live in but there still time to keep GAL and let her notice. you only give up when you want to. by GAL you let here see your cahnges. if by the time ther D is finalised she still hasent come around then your already on a path of healing. and tree is she wants to start dateing then mabey she already has someone in the wings, i dont know. but most of these " rebound flings" are not permenent in the least. the grass is not greener.
I am sure she has someone in the wings but I don't feel like I can wait around and get sloppy seconds. I know they don't last long but I know for sure she wants out and I don't feel like she is coming back. Our marrage has been bad for a while, my fault, and she is holding a tight line. It was not just one event that drove her to this point. Maybe it is time for me to move on.
I feel the worst I have felt since the bomb but maybe there is only up from here. She is in a deep fog and just wants me out. She wants to experience other men. I'm not into that. Your thoughts?
i guess tree if the thought of another man being with your wife is the final straw of yours then yes you can let go. if and only if you feel that if she came back and was the wife she was when you were happy then hang on. realy you have nothing to loose by being open to a future. if something else does come along then fine dont hold back. but untill it does you always have a chance with your wife. the LRT is what I would recomend but5 i am NO expert.
So sorry Tree!
I know it hurts so much. Will be thinking of you. Look after yourself..... even though it was not unexpected it will still have come as a shock, and your whole body will no doubt be reacting to it. It is so normal.
It aint over till its over. She needs this time to sort herself out. It may take a while but guaranteed that she will eventually discover for herself that she is the sole person responsible for her happiness and she cant blame you for everything. Heaps of people reconcile, so dont lose hope just yet.
We are here for you to vent and let it all out!
Tree:
You briefly mentioned a that things were your fault. It's probably that you both contributed to your marital problems, with perhaps you bearing more of the "fault." Obviously you can share here only what you feel like sharing, and I'm not asking for more information. I'm only saying that if you haven't followed the question of "What could I have done differently?" you will not use this crisis to grow. Take this time to look hard at yourself, at what you want from your partner (whether it's her or someone else), and what you have to give someone. She's on her own time and her own journey. She may figure out her "fault" six months from now, six years from now, or never. You don't know that, and you can't control it. Work on yourself in every sense of that phrase. That means taking care of the day to day things, as well as looking deeply at yourself. That looking at yourself takes time, and it can be painful, but it does lead to growth if you stick with it. I've been on this path, and for all the pain of separation (and likely a D), I wouldn't want to go back to the old me. I really mean that. Lights have come on about all sorts of things in my life, and while it's been hard it's been necessary and good too. I hope you are on a similar path.
Well she didn't go file. We went to my office and took a look at splitting assets. It was very tearful for both of us. Crying huggs and all. She just said she was ready to move on and start dating other people. We talked this morning. Big hug and kiss when i left and i asked her to think about giving it a little more time. She said she would think about it. On my way to Vermont.
Tree:
Wow, that must have been so emotionally distressing and hurtful for both of you. But, maybe it's not over yet. She didn't file, and even if she files she can pull it back.
What do you want? Would you ever file? That's a question I still struggle with. Some days I'm ready for closure and eager to move on with my new life without her. Other days I believe, or want to believe, that we can create a new marriage together. I don't have any evidence that she is interested in that, but it's what I feel. So, the rollercoaster takes many twists and turns. So, I struggle myself with not knowing what I want. I am resting in-between for now. That can't go on forever, but it has gone on longer than I thought it would. She hasn't filed; I haven't filed. We're not even talking about splitting assests, as we tentatively tried to do through email a couple of months ago. We're just not talking, period.
Your W still sounds very confused. Now, she may go through with the D even though she's confused, so be ready for that. On the other hand, she might reach a different conclusion at some point. As long as the paperwork isn't signed, time is your ally, provided that what you indeed want is a reconciliation. Every day that goes by without making the D official or moving it along is a good day for you, so long as you want to give this a shot.
So, what do you want? Easier asked than answered, I feel. We just don't run quickly away from those we love or those who have been such a part of our lives for so long. Maybe it's a slow drip of detachment, until one day we really are ready for a clean break, that one day we file even though we never thought WE would be the one to do that.
Wise words Bruce, I need to get use to the idea of this whole thing.I am just not there yet. Still very painful. I wonder if she wants me to file so she can be the "poor me". I wonder what I really want. These are really hard days. I need to get a handle on things.
Thanks for your note and thoughts.
Having a tough day today. I asked her if she wanted to get an apartment today that we could split. I don't know if this was a good idea or not. She said she would think about it but still thinks the outcome is going to be the big D because she doesnot love me anymore. I asked her for some more time and if we could see someone with me whom could help us communicate and she said she would.
She said she would think about it but still thinks the outcome is going to be the big D because she doesnot love me anymore.
So what she's saying is, "Marriage is 'until death do us part'... or until I dont feel like i love you any more".
Have you tried asking her if she sees anything wrong in this picture?
Hi Tree,
I feel your pain in reading what is happening. This is a very similar place to where I am w/ W. in some ways. I agree with Bruce's take that it seems there is some confusion in there for her, and it is unpredictable as to where she may go next. I know it is so hard to figure out where to steer yourself in this messy, very painful place, Tree.
I am thinking of you today.
Purr
Thanks Purr, Hey Dom, WOW!!!! this is tough. So painful. We are going out to get something to eat now. I just got really yelled at for asking what her plans where for the weekend. The kids could not believe the way she was yelling at me. Really hard to bit my toung but I did OK. Thanks for the note.
Tree,
That is really hard...it's so tough to know what is happening inside for your W. Good for you for biting your tongue. Remember, lots of breathing, take 5 seconds before you answer or react to something that triggers you.
Good luck,
Purr
Tree:
Sorry to hear you are in a rough spot and feeling low. It seems like you are going to be in that place for a while. We'd like our pain to pass quickly, but I really do believe that if we open up to it, really face it, and face ourselves, we will be better off in the long run than if we pretended we really weren't hurting. So, good for you for acknowledging that pain to yourself and to us. I really feel you are doing well, despite the hurt you feel.
I don't mean to pry too much, but do you "have" to know her plans for the weekend, or do you "want" to know? If the latter, try detaching even more and just not caring where she goes or with whom. I know, easier said than done, but maybe it's necessary in your case.
I think I am doing a good job of facing my pain. I have never hurt like this before.
I just really want to know what she is doing, S12 and I were suppose to go to Vermont but cnacelled and found out after that she had plans for Thursday, Friday and Saturday night. I think that is a little crazy. She always tells me it is none of my business but she says that to hurt me and get me going and I am dum enough to allow it. She had a E/A and it is always on my mind that she is meeting him somewhere or someone else. It really hurts. I really should cut it out but it is very hard to do.
Tree - thinking of you. Detaching is key, and the sooner you can do it the less 'damage' you will do to your relationship. Just concentrate on you, and let her do her own thing over in the corner, but dont let if affect you.
I agree with you, it sounds like she is trying to push you into making a decision to leave so you are the 'baddy' in the situation. Detach so that this doesn't happen.
Try and accept any decision she makes. If she decides that she wants to go off this weekend and date other men and be totally irresponsible, accept that she is doing the best she can, and she is allowed to make that decision. I often think that WAS try and push the buttons of the LBS, but to not show any reaction to their bad behavior is the best way of remaining in control, and therefore being attractive.
SO HARD!! I know! I promise it gets better from here. You will be OK even if the worst thing you can imagine happens, you will survive and be stronger for it.
Thanks Essie, I always enjoy hearing from you. It really breaks my heart to think she is with someone else. I am a proud person, way to proud and I hate when peole take advantage of my kind heart. I have been trying so hard to detach. That's why we were going to Vermont, to just get out of the way of the train wreck. I think she gets madder when i detach. I know she gets mad when I Gal and have a PMA. This is really strange behavior. It really hurts both mentally and now it is starting to get me physically. I now weight the same as I did in High School. I am trying to gain weight but just can not put it back on. i am down 25 Lbs. I really am starting to feel optomistic about the future with or without her. My pysc thinks she is Manic Depressed, MLC and has serious Anger issues. Nice combo isn't it. He says it is up to me to wait around and see if she pulls out of it but he promises me that the little girl I married is gone for good. In sickness and in health, that was my vow.
thanks for your thoughts.
Happy Easter everyone.
Hey Tree. Tell me what are you going to do this weekend that you are looking forward to and will be a 180 for you?
(It is so important to look after yourself mentally, physically, spiritually during this tough time - and its hard because it doesnt seem to matter anymore). At least you dont have to worry about being overweight!
I'm so pleased to hear that you are feeling more optimistic about the future. You sound like a great guy!
We still may go to Vermont. It's 4 hrs to the North. I don't know what I could do to do a 180. Maybe not ask her where she is going and what she is doing. Very hard! i just want to get away. i have gone away 4 out of the last 5 weekends just to give her space. Maybe I will stay home and just hang with my other sons and stay out of my W's hair.
Mentally: I see a pysc every other week. It is so great! I love it. Keeps me very grounded. He let's me know that I am going to be fine and I am not nuts (yet).
Physically: I work out like a dog every other day, sometimes up to 2 hrs per day. I stopped drinking in August when all this really started and eat really well, not enough, but really well. I love to get my endorhines flying. Love to ski and play golf. At 48 I may be in the best shape of my life.
Spiritually: May need a little work. My sister is working on this with me. She sent me this prayer today:
A Prayer for Healing from the Pain of Divorce
I am holding it all together on the outside, God, but on the inside my heart is crushed.
I never imagined the future without her. I never imagined myself with her.
Help me, God. Give me the courage to face the past and to learn from it.
Remind me to take the past and to learn from it. Remind me to take the
take the time to grieve for all that is no more. I feel so alone. Be with me,
God. Teach me to believe that here is hope for me, that I will love again.
Heal my heart, God. Fill me with the strength to gather up all the broken
pieces, and begin again.
Amen.
Thanks Essie.
Wow thanks for that beautiful prayer! You will love again - you have shown that you have great capacity for love.
Dont ask her what she is doing this weekend. It will drive her crazy!! (I love it!) She will probably start to drop hints about what she is going to do, and then that is the perfect opportunity for you to be nonchalant, and tell her something fun you are planning to do. Be happy for her when she does drop hints about what she is going to do - tell her that it sound nice and that you hope she has a good time, but mention that you might not be home when she gets home.
Definitely work on doing a 180 - something that is totally out of your comfort zone.
Ideas - something less sporty and more cultured might be a 180 - like a wine tasting / cooking class (great way to meet women), watching a play or going to a museum (?). Has W asked you to fix something around the house, some sort of DIY project? You could buy some of those tapes on how to learn French / Italian, and start talking about how you would like to visit Italy and France next year (and then actually go!). You could volunteer for something in your community. Just some ideas to get you thinking. I look forward to hearing some of your ideas.
Sounds like you are doing really well at looking after yourself physically, mentally and spiritually - good for you! I know you are going to come out the other side of this test a better and stronger person.
Ohh - go shopping and buy yourself a new outfit (including new shoes) - that will get her attention. I think your aim is to be a strong centered person, that way you will attract her back to you, and put you in a position where you can decide if you still want to be with her. This might be a bit radical but could you get a new haircut, dye your hair, get a fake tan, have a pedicure, get new glasses (or contact lenses) or whiten your teeth????
Obviously the whole point of this 180 behavior is to chose something that you want to do for yourself.
Unless of course you feel like W's major complaint has been that you have ignored or neglected her. In which case you could make a small non-pressuring gesture to show her you care. A thoughtful gift maybe?
Hey I'm still thinking about you.... It would also probably help for you to concentrate on acting 'as if'. Act as if she is happy to see you, be with you.
And a while ago you mentioned showing her that were reading the Good Divorce - dont do that! Its pressure! No relationship talks - avoid it like the plauge. I see that you were trying to show her that you are OK if she wants to get a divorce. I did a similar thing at the start of my separation by bringing the divorce up and joking about it - it doesnt help them when they are feeling confused about divorcing or making it work. You have to, have to, have to, give them time and space to figure out what they want, not force them into making a decision..... even though that is what we want so we can get some resolution and direction. Be patient! And focus on you!
tree you still in the game my friend. you need to keep DBIng my wife asked me today if i wanted to see other people. mabey im wrong but this confirms my thought she is haveing a EA with someone. i told her she needed to do whats right for her, and that was her desision to make. inside im dieing but untillle the D has dry ink on it or i hear a PA is going on im not done yet.
Thanks Marcus. i asked W if she wanted to go to a communication seminar with me and she said she would think about it which kinda sounded like a yes.
So, is a PA the end of the deal for you. Done! No turning back.
My W simply told me she wanted to date but I think that was out of the fog or a reation to me telling her that other people were interested in me.
I feel so empty and lost but trying to live minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. Staying in the moment and trying not to think to much about the future.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Essie,
I think I am falling in love with you. No really, thanks for your thoughts, you are really nice. I don't hink it is a matter of what she wants, I think she is pretty convinced she wants out although signs of confusion are all around. i asked her last night if she would go away with me to take a effective communication course with me, she said she would think about it, which kinda sounded like yes.
I may take the kids into NYC the Natrual Museum of Art.
I did go out and spend $1200 on cloths and shoes. She acted like she didn't notice but when we went out together to a few places people were saying "wow Tree you look great!" The cloths are really nice and fit my new body great. It was the first time in 20 years I went out and bought cloths for myself. Usually she brings the cheapest stuff she can find home for me that may or may not fit.
Thanks for your thoughts. It should be an interesting weekend.I'll let you know how I am doing.
Tree:
Good for you for buying the clothes and shoes, and for all the other things you are doing. Keep it up. This takes time, but you will feel better about the new you. You will also likely cycle back into earlier feelings of being lost, depressed, unlovable, etc. but roll with those too. It does get better in the long run, but it's surely a bumpy ride. Have a great weekend.
Hi Tree,
Just checking in with you. I'm impressed with some of the good things you've been doing for yourself in different aspects of your life--physical, emotional, spiritual. That prayer that you shared brought tears to my eyes.
I find that working out and doing things for myself sometimes works and sometimes feels like crap. It never takes the pain away of what is going on, but what else can we do? Keep going, my friend.
Purr
It's really hard. I am down right now because we just spent a nice day in NYC with W and two of our sons. We had a great time but she just came in and announced she was going out for night. I hate that. I will be sitting up all night waiting for her to come home. I don't know how much longer I am going to be able to take her running out the dorr every other night. I really don't like it but I will not say a word or ask where she is going nor whom she is with.
Treeman
Anybody ever heard of Retrouvaille?
There's loads of people on here with good knowledge of it. sara is excellent as an advocate for it. There are also complete threads dedicated to it. What do you weant to know?
I just started investigating it. It sounds like a emergency room for marriage. Kinda like a last resort. Do you know anyone who has had success?
sara,limbo, hopeforfuture....and many others.
Even if it doesn't save the M it generally leads to a much better way of communicating that allows future contact to be much more pleasant. They have a high success rate as they teach couples to communicate in a non threatening way.
From what I understand, no-one is put 'on the spot' and couples problems remain private and between them - they are taught communication skills and reminded why they fell in love with each other. I haven't seen one person post on these boards that they wished they hadn't gone to Retro. Even if they didn't save their M they came away from it with something learned that helped in the future.
Lots of folks have success with Retrouvaille. The only downside I've seen is that if the weekend doesn't come out that well...one or the other partner can really feel like that was their last real shot, and their mind gets a little more 'set' that it's over.
Great Thanks!!!! If anyone also has comments on Retrouvaille please add your two cents...Thanks.
I will be sitting up all night waiting for her to come home. I don't know how much longer I am going to be able to take her running out the door every other night. I really don't like it but I will not say a word or ask where she is going nor whom she is with. Interesting I told her I was going out and she had a million questions but I am not allowed to ask. Is that a 180 by not asking her where she was going and with whom?
Are you wanting ALL of your threads connected to one thread...or perhaps your signature line (I think I can do that). It may take me some time, I may not get it done tonight, but perhaps over the weekend. Just let me know how you want it.
ok...you've got threads on at least two forums. pretty prolific...are you wanting them all connected?
Well I didn't sit up all night i went out with friends and GALed. Great meal and lots of good talk and fun. I got home after her. she is well asleep which makes me feel good. I will sleep well and i hope you do also.
Cheers,
Hi Tree,
Good for you on this. You sure needed a little positive experience given how tough things have been of late. I wish you a restful sleep. See you on the board!
Purr
In a thread or your signature?
I don't know what the difference is. Sorry?
Tree:
It's a 180 to the extent you asked before this. If you stop asking, you just might cause her to wonder what is up with you. Women, I believe, are just, on average, smarter than us guys about the dynamics of a relationship. You change the dynamic, they notice. However, don't change the dynamic just to get a response from her. You do what you want to do, for yourself. Her reactions will be whatever they are; you can't control them. Maybe you'll do something and she will re-evaluate the relationship; maybe not. Just live your life for yourself. Do something because it makes you happy. We must not put our happiness in the hands of others; that applies to times like this, but also to being in a relationship too. Don't lose yourself in her.
Bruce, Great comments! Women are smarter in everyway. i like your comment about not putting our happyness in the hands of others. It is our choose. I am losing myself in her. I think she thinks I was out with another women last night, I had several phone calls this morn and she said why don't you answer "her" call? I assured her there was no her.
This is (your below comments from Purr's page) exactly where I am. I could not have said them better. My W is so negative about me right now i can not stand it. Any question I ask her nicely turns into this huge black holed arguement. It is terrible. I feel she hates me so much and I feel I have done nothing to deserve this. She must feel that i am holding her back from doing something that she really wants to do. i don't know anymore, I am very confused and trying to make sence of it all. i need to start thing just about me but that is very hard with three kids in the house and a W that I am very concerned about.
"Do you really want to be with that type of person? I know that's a blunt question, one I still have a hard time dealing with. I know the type of person I want and need to be with, and in many ways my W was/is not that person.
Still, the pull of history pulls us back, or makes it hard to walk away, doesn't it? It's as if part of me knows it's time to move on and take what I've learned in search of a better relationship, yet part of me still holds out some hope (naive?) that the old relationship can be transformed. I see transformation in myself, and read a million stories about transformed marriages, and want to believe it's possible with us. But I also know that many situations don't end that happily. Our wives are on their own journeys, and we must continue on ours."
She said this morning that we need to seperate. I said nothing. I do not want to move out and would be afriad for my kids. We have discussed splitting time at an apartment but i think that would be very confusing for the kids and us. I wish we could just work this thing out. If she would just be kinder and speak nicer it would go a long way. She is in a ton of pain. She again told a MC today that she did not love me. The MC called me back and said that basically what she was saying was she did not love herself, therefore it was hard to love anyone. Thanks for your support.
Tree,
So much pain in all this, hey? I feel sad for your situation and you have really been holding an extremely difficult space during this time. Sounds like your W. has a LOT of anger, but also that sometimes she projects it onto you (eg. implying you are having an affair). I would agree with the MC that she is really struggling and not happy with herself. From there, everything becomes tainted. I am sorry you find yourself in this really difficult spot. Do you think you may need to pull back a little on this to protect yourself?
Purr
Purr, what do you do to "pull back a little bit on this to protect yourself?" Help me understand what you mean.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tree:
I empathize with what you are going through. It's like we are watching someone drown, yet we cannot do a thing to save them and they blame us. Yes, we probably do deserve some blame for not being the person we could have been had we known better. Take this opportunity to learn about yourself, love, and life in general. She sounds like my W--a deep lack of self esteem and love for herself. Terrence Real, whose books have really helped me, makes the powerful point that a lack of self esteem inhibits the abilty to give AND receive love. I read that and immediately recognized this as a big problem for my W. Self esteem cannot come from us; they have to find it themselves, if they ever do. Our decision is to determine how long we are willing to wait, and how much we are willing to put up with. Neither of those, I am finding, are easy choices. I've had family and friends tell me to leave my W immediately, as if it were that easy. It's not.I am guessing that she has had family and friends tell her the same thing.
Out gALing again tonight. i am starting to get good at this. i did have a nice dinner with w and s12 and then went out. great conversations and just good all around fun.
Bruce, my wife is drowning face. i can not wait til she hits rock bottom so i can be there to pick her up and give her the love that she needs. My family is dieing for me to leave her and her family realy loves me but see's the one sided stories that she tells and wants her out also. she is in a deep fog that is not clearing soon, it is very sad. How long to wait and how much to put up with are the BIG questions.
thanks for your thoughts.
Treeman
Tree,
I was thinking that pulling back would include anything that you can do to take care of you. You're already doing really well with your GAL pieces, so keep this up. I don't have any great ideas...I guess I was just feeling how you are hurting from her actions and words. It must be very difficult to be under the same roof and seeing each other with all this going on. Sorry I don't have much to suggest...I'm just feeling for you and the frustration and pain that is clearly going on.
Take care,
Purr
Tree:
Good for you for having fun. Live in the moment, both the good times and the hard ones. You will know one day if you've had enough. Trust the process and fasten your seatbelt for this bumpy ride. Make it a good day. The power to do so is within you, no one else.
thanks guys and happy Easter.
I just asked my w simple what time we were going to eat and that started a huge arguement. nice ah.
Tree:
Wow, we can never tell what triggers the venom, can we? Sorry to hear this, but roll with the tide and try not to let it bother you. Easier said than done, but resist her drama. This is about her journey and her issues, and you can decide how long you want to wait and how much you can handle. She seems really messed up. Your happiness today, and any day, is a function of what is in you. Don't put your happiness in her hands, or anyone else's. Take care.
This is so hard. I am a hard driving salesman in a highly competetive industry and I rely on control of my customers and quick results. I have no control here. I heard her lying to a friend about today's events and arguments on the phone making me the fool. This really bothers me and I confronted her about it.
Every time she goes out I don't ask where she is going nor where she has been yet when I was out last night she told me exactly where i was at what time. I asked her how she knew and she said she would not reveal her sourses. I think either she was following me or she had me followed. UNREAL! She thinks I am seeing someone else I am sure, this is not the case and will not be for a long time.
I can't figure this stuff out. I have decided to go to my room and relax with a book (The Good Divorse) and just stay out of the lying drama for the evening. Thanks for your support.
I just took my wife's car to pick up my son 12 at a friends and found my DB blog name and password in her car. She has been reading my blog.
Well that sucks. What do you think you will do? Do you have any support off board that you can contact?
I've suspected that my H reads my threads but I can't say 100% sure. I still post, I state that facts. If this is the method he wants to use to hear what I have to say then that's his choice to hear the hurt and pain he has caused by his actions.
Your W reading what other people have to say about her actions may be an eye opener, it may make her brace up even more against you. Maybe she'll even post here too. It's happened before.
Stay strong. Chin up.
Tree:
Sorry to hear about this turn of events. Snooping on your posts and your going out is truly despicable, but you can't control it. You only control your reaction to it. What are you going to do? I wish I had some answers for you, but I don't. All I can offer is my sympathy and best wishes that you deal with these latest matters in a healthy way. She treats you badly, yet wants to know what you are up to. I suppose that is typical for MLC.
I guess you can always create a new name right?
Jen
Hi Tree! Thinking of you. Sounds like you are looking hot in your new outfits!
I wont say anything more except that you've come a long way in a short space of time, and you should be proud of yourself.
Dear Tree's Wife. I don't know you, but it sounds like you are hurting and I'm really sorry about that. Tree really does want the best for you. He's been posting here trying to figure out a new way of having a relationship with you, and how to accept that at this stage in your relationship it appears you both want different things. Sometimes that is really hard.... I understand (and I think Tree understands too) that sometimes you've got to make hard decisions to be true to yourself, even if it hurts the people you least want to hurt.
I hope that you and Tree will both find happiness.
Essie,
You are a kind soul and wise woman. Everytime I read your posts, that's what I think.
Purr
Thanks for all your support. All my friends and support tell me I will know when it is time to pull the plug and i think the time has come. I really don't deserve this and deserve to be with someone nice that wants to be with me. I need to start to look for this person and start very slowly and move forward. I am going to see my L tommorrow about separate living arrangements. It's time.
Thanks agian, you guys are great.
I need a good dose of encouragement to get things back on track. Maybe it was the pressure of the Easter weekend that got things going in the wrong direction?
I am sorry you are hurting.
So you are a salesman in a highly competitive job?
Are you also a quitter?
Sorry to be so blunt but you have only been doing this for a couple of months and you are already talking about finding someone new.
That's a real shame.
Nobody said this would be easy.
Nobody said it would be fun.
You want to save your Marriage but you are going about it all wrong.
You are going to have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and put on your big boy underoo's.
No more whining.
No more snivelling.
No more acting needy and desperate.
Get your game face on.
When you are ready for action, you know how to find me.
Tree:
It's your call. No one can make that decision for you, or tell you it's right or wrong. You decide what you want, and then try to get it. If you want a restored marriage, then you go for that. If you want out, you leave. However, be clear in your own mind what you want. If you are not clear, don't make any decisions. Just linger in the uncertainty. That's hard, especially for someone who is used to control and getting results fast. If you want your W back, this is going to take a long time. It might not succeed. But, if you have any shred of desire to try to make it a go, then you must hang in until the very end. However, if you are are sure you can't take any more, then you should leave.
I'm leaving for several days on a business trip. Take care, and be good to yourself and to others. One day at a time.
Treeman,
I will get to linking up your threads within a few days...I've been sick. I apologize for the delay.
peace and all good
sg
Thanks for your thoughts guys. i am just getting so tired of this. I am sure she is out with OM, I can just feel it in my gut and the way she responds to me. Mybe it was the pressure of Easter yesterday that set her off but I am so sick of being the target. For a while there it was two steps forward one back. Now it feels like three steps back per day. Not fun.
A little harsh BrandNewDay. I am just wearing thin and getting a little tired of being treated like Sh*t.
Hi Tree.... Sorry to hear how down you feel. This is the awful rollercoaster ride - the part when you just want to get off!
I know how hard it is to just keep hanging on - you are a great man, and its obvious you are doing your best. It is so so hard to live with them when they treat you like crap, even if its just because they are hurting.
Whenever I get upset I look to see what my expectation was that was not fulfilled. (Maybe your expectation was that Wife was improving and you weren't going to be the target of her verbal attacks this weekend?)
OR
What was I trying to control, and what am I struggling to accept? (Its hard to accept that the lovely W you married does not appear to exist anymore.... Its hard to accept that the life you thought you were going to have does not appear to be turning out the way you wanted it to). Really hard.
If that doesnt help, please just ignore it!
Its not fun - that's for sure! I personally am over all this character strengthening and ready for the fun and love to start!
Character building is way over-rated!
Thanks for your thoughts Essie. Do you mean your character building? I am working on acepting that's for sure. I would just love to have my old life back again and I am having trouble accepting that. Also having trouble accepting that my W wants to be with OM.
Tree:
Sorry to hear about you feeling down. Been there, done that. Will probably do it again as I cycle through detachment. The process of splitting away moves slowly, and painfully. I'm on the road for a few days now; take care.
Thanks Bruce, have a safe trip. I am going to be OK I proise you and I promise me. It will just take time. Thanks for your support.
Dber's,
I am in a bad spot. I have a W that is a Manic Depressive with sever anger issues stuck in MLC that feels that I am holding her back from running around foot loose and fancy free all over town. She has told me that she has feelings, freindly feelings for another man. She says he is just a friend. (Dr. Phil said yesterday that in a situation like this the words Just and Friend do not go together). She is being as nasty as she can to me and my children. She pays no attention to the kids at all but to feed them and run out the door. Everyday I feel like cra* over this situation and I don't know how much further me and the kids can hang on. I love my wife, or whom my wife use to be, very much. She has issues she has to face and will not. I am working very on me doing DB exercises, seeing MC's, Pysc's and working totally on all the issues that i have contributed. She is not budging in this situation and putting in no effort. She has told me many times she does not love me. I heard her on the phone with her friends laughing and making light of our sitch which I think is very seriuos. She will make every effort to hurt me or be nasty.
I am stuck between a rock and a hard spot. Why? Because the living situation that we currenty employ is no good. We bicker, argue and do nothing good in front of our three lovely boys. So living together in our house is a bad idea. She will not leave and I have been advised by all not to leave the house. Bad idea #2 is getting Divorced! I don't want this but the W threatens this everyday like she is holding a gun to my head. She has three feet out the door. She is going to see her L next week to talk to her L about next steps. I saw a new very powerful L today for the first time. I told her(lady L) that i did not want a D and I wanted to R and did not want to be more than three feet from my kids at all times but she said it is not up to me. She assured me that the figures for alimony and support that my W is giving me are fictious and dreamy. My L knows her L well and said that she paints a real rosey story and winds up smelling like shi*. My L says she starts off with the sh**y news and then winds up smelling like a rose. I feel like may back is against a wall and i had to go talk to a L that knew what she was talking about.
Good idea #1. Go to an emergency room for marriages such as Retrovialle. I have talked to two of their coaches and they think this is the time to do it before either of us files for divorse. I feel like I am at the end of the road and I am reaching for straws. She has no interest in MC's anymore for they "can not help us with our problem".
I love my wife, I love my kids, I don't want a Divorce, I do not want my wife running out the door every night but this is not about what I want. The question is how long can this go on and how long can I and the kids handle her childish behavior.
Does anybody have a good idea #2 or #3. Talk to me brother!
Your thoughts required.
Point out what is harsh?
Are you that sensitive a fellow?
One minute you are pining away for your wife....
Then you are thinking about finding someone new.
Want to talk about character building?
Or my favorite word?
STICKTOITIVENESS!!!!
I just have a hard time believing you can't toughen up a bit and stick this out.
The question is how long can this go on and how long can I and the kids handle her childish behavior.
It can go on for years..........
Ouch! (Brandnewday)
Dearest Tree
You are a good man doing your best in a really really hard place. But what you are doing is not working -right?
So my ideas are: STOP - stop trying to save your marriage, stop trying to fix your wife, stop trying to figure out if you want to be married to W. Its all out of your control.
So what can you do instead?
The words are 'lovingly detach'.
What does that mean? - Firstly you do this because you love yourself, your wife and your kids. You dont do this because you want to 'pay back' or 'teach a lesson'.
Detach - meaning to separate yourself from W's anger, drama, tension, upset. You can do this while physically being present (and I agree with your thoughts that you should not be the one to leave at this stage).
Detach - withdraw so that you can reserve yourself, so that you can still be true to yourself and be OK. Find your inner mojo!
I know its hard but it will help you a millions times to be happier and more in control of yourself. You dont want to be swayed any longer about what W is thinking or doing. You want to be centered.
Replace all that time and energy that is currently going into worrying about how you are going to fix this mess, you should instead concentrate on you. I know in the start I had to break it up into blocks of 30 minutes. A 30 minute break where I did something I enjoyed.
You know what is really crazy? You are SO great, and W is the one missing out on you - not the other way around. You cant fix her but you can fix yourself so that you can draw her back to being attracted to you.
Essie,
Ouch?
How long does one have to sit back and watch him spinning like a top?
How long does one pussyfoot around?
The Man needs to get a grip,
get some focus
and stick with the program.
P.S You are doing great and you should be proud of yourself for even coming to this website and giving DB a go!
P.P.S - Retroville (spelling?) is another from of you trying to fix the relationship. If you ask her to go she will feel pressured, she is unlikely to get much out of it, and then she will have the ultimate excuse of 'I tried everything - BT is the one with the problem'.
Thinking of you!
Essie, I think I love you! Thanks for the kind words. You are a very strong person and I admire that in you.
BND: I agree with some of the stuff you are saying, I am ready for you. What do you suggest at this point, what am I doing wrong that I can correct today.
BT,
Do you remember when you first started posting here and I told you that this was going to take a long time?
MLC is hard.
And....
It is not your problem.
You need to learn how to GAL without your wife.
You are going to have to turn a blind eye to her antics and not react, and act as it you don't give a damn.
Pretend she is a room-mate, not your wife.
Be civil, and courteous but do not invade her privacy, or ask her any questions, or ask where she is going.
You need to protect yourself financially also.
Your credit cards, the ones where you are the primary and she is an authorized user, remove her name.
Close accounts that you do not need.
Keep records of all bills, mortgage payments, etc.
Open an individual account for yourself and start saving.
I am not trying to scare you, but MLC'ers have absolutely no regard for anyone else except themselves.
They do not care about their future, and they become as irresponsible as teenagers.
And.....
DO NOT tell your wife you are doing this.
And if she is reading these posts, you had best act quickly.
She does not know she is in MLC.
So any idea of trying to sit down with her and explain things is a complete waste of time.
Trying to get her ot a councellor or a program is also a waste of time.
To her, her mind is made up and she will live her life however she damn well chooses to .
You will be the scapegoat for everything wrong in her life.
You will be the target of her anger.
Let me reiterate at this point.....
This is not your problem.
Your children are your concern.
They need one sane parent.
You must never bad mouth her to them.
They are not involved, so keep them out of it.
So how must you behave?
You are going to have a good attitude.
You are not going to get all mamby pamby or needy.
That type of behavior does not attract a Woman.
You are going to be strong.
You can vent here, but NEVER to her or her friends or family, EVER.
You are not going to let her under your skin.
The Woman you fell in love with is now on a mental vacation.
My Husband was in MLC for over 5 years.
It is hard, and painful and mentally challenging, BUT you can do this and you will get through to the other side.
MLC is not a death sentence and neither is Divorce.
Many people here have been dealing with the aftermath of MLC for a very long time.
Standing is not for everyone, but you have to choose one or the other.
Make a choice.
Stick to it.
Try it out.
You can always change your mind later.
I will let you absorb this for now, and then we can go over more tomorrow.
well done BND. Did you ger Divorced?
BT,
I am not sure if you understood my post to you.
It wasn't about me.
It was about you.
I was trying to help you understand what MLC is.
And no, I didn't get Divorced.
I totally understand that but you stated
"MLC is not a death sentence and neither is Divorce."
I thought by this statement that you were speaking from experience.
My Husband and I are reconciled.
Great work BND.
Tonight has been great so far. Been sitiing and talking like human beings and everything. W made a wonderful dinner and 2 out of my 3 boys eat very calmly with us. AMAZING. Are these baby steps?
Great to hear that you had such a nice night. You can expect hell tomorrow though (expect it, then you wont be disappointed!).
You know the way to a girls (my) heart - compliments! I love it!
Great post by bnd - these ones are my favorite for you.
You are going to have to turn a blind eye to her antics and not react, and act as it you don't give a damn.
Pretend she is a room-mate, not your wife.
Be civil, and courteous but do not invade her privacy, or ask her any questions, or ask where she is going.
You are going to make it - if not we can hook up somewhere 1/2 place between your place and mine, which might be a romantic island in the middle of the ocean!
Thanks Essie, good to hear from you. Having a bit of a down day just thinking about all this. Going to lunch with Sister and Mom. They always cheer me up. Last night ended well and this morning was very quite. I think she is a little off base because I went to my L yesterday and came home wit a PMA. Working hard on PMA, not asking questions and detaching.
Brokentree,
"Are these babysteps?" No, she's nowhere near ready for that, sorry.
Your W hasn't even begun her journey. In the beginning I too was looking for fast reconcilliation, didn't get it, only more disappointment. Please realize it's a blessing in disquise if they don't "reconcile" quickly because if they do they usually leave again because they weren't ready. Then the LBS gets to deal with disappointment on top of the pain all over again. One day you may be where I am and now and ponder the question of whether you would take them back if they wanted to come home and risk the pain again.
I spent a lot of time researching how long my W's journey might take, mostly on these boards. Very unscientifically I came up with a time frame of 2-5 years. We're 15 months post-bomb now.
The faster you detatch, focus on yourself and GAL the better off you'll be. If you take your ques from your W you'll become a human yo-yo.
Decide what you want and be determined to achieve it.
Don't let anyone (including yourself) sway you from your goal.
Give up hope for a quick reconcilliation.
Do whatever it takes to let her go.
"Hard tasks call for hard ways." Stilgar
Essie...
I am sure you don't mean anything by this...
BUT....
You are going to make it - if not we can hook up somewhere 1/2 place between your place and mine, which might be a romantic island in the middle of the ocean!
This kind of stuff is totally inappropriate on these boards, and I am sure you can understand why.
Jealous BND?
Of course I'm only kidding! I've learnt a lot from DB.... The most important thing is to let the man chase the woman and not pursue!. So... Tree there will be no meeting you half way. I'm expecting you to fly all the way to me and turn up on my doorstep with flowers, chocolates, and poetry. I've also learnt to keep my expectations low ;)!!
Have a great day Tree & BND
It's offical. I love you. I think there is room on this board for a little light heartedness but I do understand what BND is talking about. It helps with the pain.
Well no arguements for the last two days. W tried to start after dinner but I took lady Grace's advice and smiled and walked away. Mink told to to emagine I was rubbing oil on a Brazilian babe on the beach when my wife started going off. I am learning from all of you.
BT,
There is always room for lighthearted fun.
There is also crossing a line, or getting really close to the grey area.
Think about it.
Very quite here. No argueing. She decided to argue with the kids instead. For the first time this is starting to effect my S12. Very sad. He is not bad just acting out for the first time ever. The kid is a real sweat heart. W has been very nice since I went to the L on Tuesday.
I think we are done. I asked her for some checks to pay bills from our joint account and she went ballistic. Saying that is why I am Ding you. Calling me names and everything. All I asked for was some checks. I am really concerned for this is really starting to effect the kids.
Bad news. I think I will stay away from the house today.
BT,
You are still early in all this. She sounds like she may be in the anger stage, if so you will recieve spew no matter what you say or do. This is difficult to deal with because you will tend to evaluate her actions rationally and there is nothing rational about her actions. That's one reason you will hear people advising detatchment.
Mine would get furious at me all the time, no matter what I said or did and would say, "that's why we are getting a divorce." If I did something wonderful for her she would say, "that's why we're getting a divorce, because you should have done that long ago."
It aint about you.
Man, Sleeper you are right on key here. This is exactly what I am getting. Everything is horribly my fault. My L talked to her L today and they want to get the four of us together and smooth things out like who pays what bills. Her L also said a R is not in the offering. Kinda bummed at that but who knows what could happen.
Kind of a bummer day. I feel like I am getting the slow blade.
Thanks for your note.
BT, here's a two edged sword for you:
Good News; Her anger won't last forever.
Bad News; It was about one year post-bomb before my W's anger faded. She just recently verbalized, "I'm not angry at you anymore." (Blew me away because it was the first time she admitted anger towards me and indicated on some level she was aware that she had been expressing her anger over the past year).
This isn't going to be over anytime soon. Don't even let yourself think of reconcilliation now. You'll only get your hopes up and be disappointed.
Decide what you want.
Get a plan.
Commit yourself to it.
I decided I want my marriage. My plan was to become the better man and wait her (and her mlc) out. I am still committed to it 16 months later and things look better all the time. I still don't let myself consider reconcilliation. Not yet.
You must become the slow blade. Her mlc is the shield.
Thanks Sleeper. So she filed in August and you you guys are still together with hope. Wild. My W has been angry for quite some time. I don't think it will ever go away and I am really starting to believe that she does not love me anymore. Her L said there was no change for reconciliation. I can't believe she filed in August and you guys are still working on it. If my wife files I am done!
It's complicated BT,
Yes she filed in August. D could have been final in January in our state. So why aren't we divorced?
Yes I'm still working on it. She is still thinking on it (I think). Saw her tonight. for some reason she can't keep her eyes off my biceps. Mlcers are very confused and many don't know what they want (crisis = cross = crossroad = choice).
I too felt if "x" happens, I'm done. It happened, I wasn't done. Then I thought, well if "y" happens, I'm done. It happened too, I wasn't done. Will "z" happen? Don't know. will I be done? H*ll no!
That's why I say YOU have to decide what you want and commit yourself to it no matter what happens. Saying you are done if X happens is letting circumstances make life altering decisions for you (and your children). Is that any way to live your life? Are we amoebas being sloshed around in the surf?
"If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs, then you shall be a man, my son." T. S. Elliot?
Who is keeping their head and who is losing theirs in your sitch, BT?
Well said Sleeper. She was quite shocked that I went to the L and asked her to call W's L. Kinda like a change of events.
You are quite right. Until the sitch presents itself you never know how you are going to react. My W is all over the place but if I was a betting man (and drinking man) I would say she is done with me. I will give it a good fight.
Thanks for stopping by again.
How are you doing?