I've been reading up a lot on MLC. Along with MLC, I think my husband is suffering from masked/covert depression. I read that Replay can last from 6 months to 3 years. My H is extreme in everything he does. Is 3 years extremely long or average? Can replay last longer? I've already given up on our M, but I still love and care about my H and want to learn everything about MLC so that I can be there for him if he needs me. I think he's been in replay for about 18 months, but seriously in it (or maybe revisiting?) for about 6 months now.
Any information on Replay and masked/covert depression would really be appreciated.
Thanks!
Good question, difficult to answer, some NEVER leave replay. I would say the average, if there is one, is about 2 years or so.
Replay lasts aboiut two years. Replay IS Covert Depression. The only cure for Covert Depression is Overt Depression.
Many suffer from Covert Depression--especially men. The best book out there is I Don't Want To Talk About It by Terrence Real.
Giving UP on your marriage is a choice. But why not try Giving IN first.
Giving IN means you are letting go, realeasing. Whereas Giving UP is a complete lack of Faith and no Hope for anything ever.
Replay: Life's Bachelor Party
HUGS,
RCR
I am just reading "I Don't Want tot Talk About It." I highly recommend it. I identify with so much of what he describes as covert depression and I definitely fell into the trap of using addiction to keep the covert depression from becoming over depression. Good book! If your H seems withdrawn, addicted, etc. give this book a try.
Thanks bh, rcr, sh...
I certainly hope that H will not be one of those who never leaves Replay. After reading RCR's thread on Replay, I feel like he's still trying to keep us on the backburner. He hasn't taken all of his things from the house (ours or his mother's) - also doesn't have money to buy new clothes, just wears the same outfits over and over again even though he has a whole wardrobe at his mom's and our place - and denies there is any R with OW to me even after 9 months of S. His behavior is baffling, but I'm starting to understand it more, the more I read.
About Giving UP or Giving IN to my M... I'll have to think about that one. Your description for giving up is really final, and I've said that I can't say that I will never consider being with him again. So my decision has been to give up FOR NOW - is that actually giving in? Spoke to someone today and told her how I'm giving up on my M but not on my H, and she said I should give up on H because by not giving up on him, I'm still hoping there is a chance for our M. I didn't agree with her at all - I think I can separate the two, but I am I just fooling myself and setting myself up for another disappointment? Another question for me to seriously consider.
I've been reading some articles online from Real. I'll try to get the book this weekend. Thanks for the recommendation.
Another question:
Assuming I decide to give IN instead of give UP, aside from lovingly detaching, is there any point for me to DB anymore given the state of MLC he's in?
I'm dying to see how he will be towards me tomorrow when I see him. He messaged me on my b-day 2 days ago saying "Happy Birthday! I didn't forget..." - but that was it since he "introduced" me to OW (who he denied was OW) last weekend when I showed up unannounced at his restaurant. I have a feeling he will either be really nice or will not be at his mom's at all to avoid me. And WTF did that message mean anyways??? He's been so distant with me that the "I didn't forget" part is the most personal thing he's said to me in such a long time, in the sense that it shows some kind of R between us (because he thinks I'd assume he'd forget). Or could be nothing at all. One more thing I just remembered - at the restaurant, he intoduced me to another staff member as his wife. Back in October when he introduced me to another staff member, he totally left that part out. No idea what it all means, not that I even care anymore.
Still Hoping--If it makes you feel any better, my H still has all of his tools and different things in our garage, has all of his books here, and even keeps a few bags of clothes in his trunk. Has done that for almost one year now.
If these guys were serious about moving out permanently, they would not have items scattered here and there.
SF,
Funny you should mention toolbox - that's the one thing he DID take with him! Which is how I figured out he got another place. STILL claims to stay at friends' place when not at his mom's (friend has told me he hasn't stayed there since bomb in July 06). If he really wanted it to be over, wouldn't he have told me he's getting his own place???
These men............
Mine and OW finally moved into their own shack in March after living with her daughter, son in law and little kids.
Actually, I am kind of glad this happened because now it is just the two of them, no interruptions or diversions, no phone calls from me or the kids, nobody to cook for him (still!), he still has to do his own laundry................
I wonder why mine did not take a toolbox? Gosh, if I wanted to see all of this stuff, I could make thousands........Oh yeah, he even has a lot of car stuff such as oil, brake fluid, coolant, etc.
To add to my above Questions (they're never ending!):
If depression stems from unresolved childhood issues, and my H is now disowned from his father since our S, does that mean he will not come out of replay until those issues with his father are addressed/resolved?
Still--I think it probably depends on the individual. My H was disinherited and is no longer welcome in his parents home until he gets rid of OW.
I think that they can come out of it based on what is waiting for them (such as you waiting for your H). I say this because in Jan., my H said that the only stability he has ever had in his life is with me and the kids. That tells me taht he can get thru this in his own time.
If depression stems from unresolved childhood issues, and my H is now disowned from his father since our S, does that mean he will not come out of replay until those issues with his father are addressed/resolved?
Second, for many MLCers the trigger is a death--and that is often the Father's death. The issues may have been with the Father, but they are internal.
HUGS,
RCR
Holy crap batman! H's dad died in 2001, he lost the family business in 2003....denial i belive started in 2004 followed by anger 2005.....and falling into replay 2006 and still going strong.....I m still the cause of all his prpblems...I had it pegged
the part about it being mostly about the father fits soooo well....H could never please him or get his approval.
It's funny how when I talk to my friends I know that none of them can relate, yet here I seem to have something in common with everyone!
Saw H tonight and he was very different - wondering if I was going to say anything about OW, I'm sure. He was very clingy towards S5, which he ususally isn't. At one point when we were alone was totally stuttering when he spoke to me, I almost had to laugh but held it in. I did good and didn't say anything or act differently. Had a good time with the rest of his family.
How long H will be in Replay, I really have no idea. Whether this is really a MLC or if he's just changed, I also can't say. I'm just happy to say that I'm ok and mean it.
Been debating about whether or not to keep posting here - I don't feel the need to anymore now that I've decided to move on, but lately there have been times that H's behavior is showing the teeniest tiniest steps in the right direction. Makes me question my own detachment, although most of the time I think that realistically, I don't think I would ever be able to get over the extent of his lies and actions. It's easy to package them neatly in to the MLC box and say his actions starting from whatever date can't be counted and he never meant to hurt me. But, despite his intentions, it still hurts like hell and I don't think the trust could be rebuilt after all the lies he's told and continues to tell.
As far as his actions lately, he had S5 go home with me the other night instead of spending the night with him so that S5 could be with me on Mother's Day (he knows it's a big deal to me, although I didn't say anything about it this year). BUT, he could've been doing that for his own benefit - so he could go be with OW or because he didn't want to be around his dad the next day.
Then, he asked for him to sleepover tonight since he didn't over the weekend. He hasn't asked him to sleepover on a weeknight for 2 or 3 months. Earlier today, H messaged me twice - he initiated both times, also something he hardly ever does. First time was to tell me what he got for S5's birthday. Second time was to ask me to bring some of his work stuff from the house for him. No big deal actually, but just unusual for him to message me anything other than "What time are you dropping S5 off?".
The family invited me to stay for dinner, so I did. Not much conversation, but H and I actually shared a half-@ss laugh and eye contact for the first time in a long while (since we separated maybe?). Over something stupid - his shorts getting caught on the drawer as he was walking - but still, the fact that he looked at me to see my reaction was something.
I have to admit, I still have a hard time imagining him never coming home, whether I want him to or not. I'm fine without him, but when I think of how much S5 still wants him home, it breaks my heart. Can't stop wondering how it'll all end...
If he's poking his head out of the tunnel, what can I expect next?
Yet another H-initiated TM today non-S5 related... He's starting to become financially responsible again.
That's more TMs this week than he's sent me all year.
But what does it all mean? I am reading too much in to nothing???
Friend thinks he's at an all time low. Can Replay and Depression happen at the same time?
Still Hoping,
My H had replay and depression at the same time. Depression sort of came at the tail end of replay. He was living with OW and severely depressed. So much so that he nearly attempted suicide (In the bathtub, gun in mouth, finger on trigger). He cried often and rarely if ever smiled, and was just generally down. He now admits that he was probably clinically depressed.
BFM
bfm,
I posted on your thread. What a frightening experience that must have been for your H and all involved...
I feel like H is taking baby steps out of replay - although I think he's still living with OW and A has been on/off for 18 months. Having trouble telling if he's depressed or just cold towards me. Could just be wishful thinking that he's coming out of replay. But from the goals section in one of the books, I mentally noted that I would know things were getting better when he starts to initiate contact, which is what he's doing. Guess I will just have to continue on with my life and see what happens... If he actually calls to talk and/or asks to meet up, I'll definitely know things are changing. Again, will just have to continue living my life and see...
".. But from the goals section in one of the books, I mentally noted that I would know things were getting better when he starts to initiate contact......"
You mean like any kind of contact? Phone, TM, in person????
My H has been doing this since March--just calls to say "I did this and I am not sure it went thru, can you check and see if the payment went thru on the computer........" Silly little stuff that he could do on the phone HIMSELF!!!
I think sometime it is guilt appeasement the contact. I think seeing it as a change depends on the situation. Mine would and has txt for no reason the whole time. I avoid answering personal questions about me. my health, or what I do.....those are off limits.
sh,
I saw on bflymom's thread you have to book "how to improve your marriage without talking about it", but didn't see how it would help. I just wanted to encourage you to go ahead and read it even if you can't apply (at least I haven't figured out how ...YET) some of it. What they have to say about "shame" and "fear" I found valuable and will be able to use regardless of how this all turns out. Just in my everyday interactions with men.
Perhaps a way to help contact when it is made?
I think sometime it is guilt appeasement the contact. I think seeing it as a change depends on the situation. Mine would and has txt for no reason the whole time. I avoid answering personal questions about me. my health, or what I do.....those are off limits.
Why? I would not hesitate to tell my H about my health which I already have. I guess I figure he is still my H, we are not going thru a divorce and he has a right to know about my health. I do not ask him about OW that kind of stuff so that is off limits in my book.
We get along and we seem to be able to handle the everyday conversations but I will not engage in R matters at this time. As long as he is under the spell of OW, no way. She hates me so much and I think she is trying to do anything in her power to push me over the edge. It is not working is it? How do I know she hates me? H said so and he has told the kids. Sure she hates me because I have not filed for divorce. And I am not going to either. And he would have done it long ago if he really wanted one.
I guess I figure he left me for another..he now has another to look after and be concerned about.....he cries whenever I say that...I"ll always love you....I always be concerned about you....... I just dont figure he needs to know, hes the one who filed for divorce and took off his wedding ring. No OW talk no R talk.... no D talk He never brings it up either its like parallel universes to him. The other nite after he came to see Smudgie, I initiated a hug. he certainly hugged back. Maybe I was trying to show him the door was open a bit.
H has not contacted me at all during these past 9 months, except to say he's coming to pick up boys or to see when I'm dropping them off. I think he TMed me once in Jan to ask me to bring something to the house for him. Even for Christmas, all we got was an email from him. Otherwise, I am always the one to initiate. That's why these 3 are so significant to me - even if they are not very personal. He could've waited till I saw him this weekend to tell me the things he messaged me, which is what he usually does. Actually admitted to friend today that he's in deep sh*t - but i think he was only speaking financially. Not going to get my hopes up (or get my hopes back, I should say) because for all I know, he's still head over heels in love with OW.
you have a lot of postives in your stitch, do you know that?
Puffy to Liss--I don't love you at all.
Puffy to Liss-- If you don't move, I will put you thru the wall
Puffy to Liss-- don't touch me .
SEEEE, your H is like a saint.
Grace: Thanks, I'll start reading it. Still have Chapman's 5LL to finish too - another one I felt I couldn't apply to my sitch, but again, might be helpful later on. (Hopefully?)
2moro, SF, Lissett: Gotta admit - I'd be ecstatic if H asked me how I was doing (not very good detachment/letting his actions control my reactions) but that's how little he's shown he still cares about me. I've known him since high school, so him acting as if he doesn't care is so not him. Through all this, he hasn't told me he still loves me and/or still cares about me. NOTHING of the sort. Pretty much just walked and that was it.
I'm trying to find out what OW thinks of me but friend I'm talking to doesn't even look at her when he's around her so doesn't know (or care). I think I'd be satisfied with her hating me...
To be honest, I do not care what other woman thinks of me because she is losing her grip.
I wanted to point out that H also calls S16 a lot and H is always asking S how everybody is and if there is anything "WE" need.
I think they say H needs to reconnect with the kids first? Well, that is already a given between H and S but with the girls, that is going to be harder because of what he did to them a year ago--talked to OW on phone in front of them a lot, told them that OW is his wife, not me, all kinds of whacked out things and of course he was always drinking then.
The girls would need so much reassurance from him if he ever decided to move back home because they view it as him dumping them twice to OW.
Lissett,
I would like to comment on something you said.
you have a lot of postives in your stitch, do you know that?
Ask anyone who was around in my day whose marriage would be saved and my name was at or near the top of the list. It didn't work that way. But it was worth it to see it through. But if I could have done anything differently, I would have spent much more time making myself happy and less time wondering where things stood. This doesn't mean that anyone should call it quits. Rather, I believe that all the wondering and all the reading and all the consternation was detrimental to any chance for success I had. We have no control over that other person. We do, however, have control over ourselves and our dreams, needs, and desires. Pursuing those things are more likely to make us more attractive to another.
still,
This is a tough time. Accept the positive. Don't dwell on them. Be aware of where your H is, but don't try to get when he will be out of it. It becomes wasted time and energy. I do recognize that you can't help but to be distracted by all of this nonsense But if you put in mind what you want for yourself regardless of who is or is not in your life, you will speed up the happiness process.
Good luck.
IMP
Lissett:
Wow, that's the first time anyone has said my sitch has positives! Wait, I think stillme said my sitch was "not all that bad" after my first post. Wish I could see it that way! Guess it's all relative. I did get a huge "F YOU" screamed at me by him (first time he ever swore at me) the week we split. It still rings in my ears. But since then, his eyes are dead when he looks at me, if he even looks my way (except for the other day when we briefly caught eye contact).
I really do believe my H is still in there somewhere. Just want him to come out!
Kind of along the lines of what IMP was saying. I would not look for positives or baby steps until they are out of replay.They bounce around way too much for these things to even matter in the beginning.
Stop this and concentrate on other things that make you happy. Work on yourself. Detach from your h completely. Let go and drop the rope.
AAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKK
hanging head in shame, I was talking to PWS, or whatever her new name is.
AND.. When i say positives I don't mean positives in that H is comning home, I am past that. I mean positives in herself.
(sigh)
I did post and run, and then It goofed, and,,, and.... I'm sorry
IMP, mermaid: That's really what I'm trying to do, and last week, I felt like I had actually finally reached detachment. My mind was made up to give up. Was even going to stop posting here. Then of course, this week, all these tiny movements have occurred and now I have my doubts as to whether I should give up completely. I'll do what you've suggested and not take them for anything positive for now. That's what I needed to hear. I still want to be here for him if he needs me, but I'm certainly not going to be the one to go to him. Just going to keep living my life (that I'm finally starting to enjoy again!).
You are all amazing women... Thanks for your support...
still,
I'm a man!
I'll do what you've suggested and not take them for anything positive for now.
But don't look at it as negative either. But I do understand what you are going through. And it really is difficult to get back on track after all this nonsense. You just have to keep reminding yourself to keep moving forwrd. Yes, easier said then done, but the positive mindset about the person you are is very important.
Hang in there.
IMP
So sorry IMP!!!
You're an amazing man then...
Just realized that I asked the same question twice (about replay and depression happening at the same time) after RCR already answered the first time... Must be losing my mind...
Need to get back to being really detached as advised. Otherwise, I'm just setting myself up for yet another major disappointment, thinking that he's coming out of the tunnel and will drop everything to come running back home.
I wanted to add that my H was not in contact with me last year the way he has been since the end of March. If he was calling, it was to S16 first, and then maybe the girls but he always felt safe with S16 because H never flaunted OW/affair in my son's face, ever.
If there was contact with H, it was very limited via phone. He does not text message at all.
And for awhile last year, he would just come in to get the kids and leave.
Now total opposite here. I think the not drinking is helping him as well.
My 100th post... Thought that was pretty scary, then looked and saw that most of you are in the 4 digits!
SF: Your sitch gives me hope. But I'm also afraid of that, because like I said above, I think I'm just setting myself up for a huge disappointment. What if he fixes everything else in his life and I'm moving forward, but still in my heart and mind expecting him to do the same with our M and it never happens?
I know what I need to do - take the advice I've been given, don't expect anything, do what makes me happy, stop thinking about him, move on with my life... Just way easier said than done.
Wish they could issue some kind of guarantee that they'd come back after their MLC! Would definitely make the decision to wait much easier.
Still:
I have no expectations but that is not to say when he comes over, it is not in the back of my mind that maybe this is the day he moves back. Yeah, that thought is there but not something I get my hopes up about.
When he is here, I am myself, go about my business, do what I have to do.
YOu'll be okay.
still,
This is why I hate this MLC malarchy. There is always another question. There is always something else to consider. In the meantime, no one can answer that question for sure. So he resolves the father issues. Ok, what's the next thing that he has to fix because of that. He can make peace with the issues and still decide he doesn't want to be married to you. Are these issues ever really resolved or are they just accepted? What if depression is brought on by poor career choices? What if depression is genetic and undiagnosed? What if depression is because he lost that Liitle League championship game and never got over it? What if the depression is brought because his first girlfriend dumped him? What if depression was brought on because he never got that Mustang he wanted?
Do you see what I am saying? It could go on and on. There is no set reason. There are no set answers.
Now, the real question is what do you want for yourself that you control.
Seriously, do you really want to spend the next year, two years, three years, fours years asking these questions?
SF: Thank you for your encouragement. I know I'll be ok whichever way things work out. My concern right now is if H will be ok. But I know that there's no point in worrying about that, because there is nothing that I can do to help. Just have to let it go and let him test his wings and hopefully learn from his mistakes.
IMP: I don't want to spend another DAY asking any more questions! The questions are neverending, and so is the drama. I want to get back to being still (slowly getting there again). The problem for me in really taking control of my life is that it involves moving to another country, which means taking my kids away from the only life they know, and pretty much taking their father out of their lives (along with their cousins and other family members they are extremely close to). It's a heartwrenching decision because S5, who is wise beyond his years, doesn't want to go. I know I can't let my life decisions be made by a 5 year-old, but it's definitely something I have to consider. Their lives and lifestyles will dramatically change because of my decision.
What you and mermaid said earlier about not expecting anything right now is so true. So much for the baby steps I thought I saw. Spent the day with H at in-law's for niece's birthday party and he didn't even say hello when I saw him. Pretty much avoided me like he's done in the past and was very uncomfortable being in room alone with me. I was the same as I usually am - I even joked about a few things with him without him even cracking half a smile. Pointed out some new grey hair he's grown and touched his head when saying bye (haven't done that since S). Probably shouldn't be touching him at all at this point, but want him to see that I'm really ok now, even after seeing him with OW. I don't think he's getting it...
I can't understand his reasons for not revealing his A to me still, even after it's been so long. And why did he give her another name when he introduced me to her? I know - questions I'll never have the answers to, but can't get them out of my head.
On a separate issue, in case anyone is having trouble deciphering whether or not their S is having a MLC, I found this short article helpful:
Understanding MLCAnother article listed the following 3 actions as signs of a MLC: leave security of jobs, break family ties, leave relationships.
In H's case: check, check and check.
still,
Why do have to move to take control of your life?
I know - questions I'll never have the answers to, but can't get them out of my head.
Yep. Another of life's mysteries. Crazy, ain't it.
But still, I don't know about the leaving security of a job. I can think of reasons to take a chance and I can think of reasons to leave a relationship. But when they eschew their children, I can never understand that.
Take things a day at a time. Don't trty to do too much at once.
IMP
Why do have to move to take control of your life?
That's a complicated answer and would probably require you to dig back through all my posts. I'll save you the trouble - In a nutshell, I'm living overseas in the country my H is from, where his family is. I'm pretty settled here with friends and am comfortable with his family, who has been great at supporting me financially. However, we really have no assets and property is ridiculously expensive here. Even if I were to go back to work full-time (I've recently gotten a part time job), I would never be able to afford a place on my own here. H left the family business, getting disowned from his dad in the process and has 2 projects going on - one of which is failing miserably and putting him in MAJOR debt although the other may work out. Can't depend on him to support me, and while his family has said they will support us, they have no obligation to do so and at the end of the day, H is still their blood. I have a pretty decent offer from my father to work at his company, which is in the other country, where my parents live. I'd be close to my famliy, who can help me with watching the kids, and could work and save to eventually get a place on my own. I have a couple of months to think about it, but everyday, it's looking more and more attractive.
Thank you, still. I can see why you are contemplating the move. All you can do is make the best decision with the information at hand. I am sure it is a lot to think about. Good luck.
IMP
Still hoping, if you think h's family will support you for a while, consider going back to school to boost your career prospects. Also, consider trying out new jobs just to expand your future career options. At this point in time, my straight out advise is, you will have to start thinking about your own future, meaning you will need to explore your long term career options. While h's family is supporting you now and you are not "starving", take the time and figure out what you want to do with your career and start. It may means going back to school. It may means getting a job which does not pay so well but will work out really well when you move to another place (with your parents, or wherever).
Back then when h was ready to leave, he did promise me that he would support me in whatever I do (I left my highly paid and promising career to stay at home and follow his move to further HIS career). I took that opportunity to contemplate a change of career and actually applied to a few grad school. So while you are still OK financially, use the time to decide what you want to do. You don't want to be struggling just to get anyjob that pays in case it gets to that point.
Good luck. You are in a difficult situation now. Hugs to you.
Dear IMP !!
Ask anyone who was around in my day whose marriage would be saved and my name was at or near the top of the list. It didn't work that way. But it was worth it to see it through
You posted this earlier on this SH's thread ...........It kind of freaked me out a bit....... I think most on this BB think the same about me and my H........I don't want to jinx it........I want to go through the process like everyone else ! Fall and get up like everyone else, not have this sense of false 'security' that he may come back !
So, I've been reading a lot of your posts, and you do have a MAN's approach to life, but it is a sober and acurate approach. I am off to C now and instead of talking about H as I always do, it's time to discuss ME !!!!!
Thanks !!
Just be very careful that H can't claim you are abducting the kids by taking them to another country. I am reading a book "The Courage to be a Single Mother" and the woman in that book got into legal problems because she took her children out of the country where they had been living. See a lawyer before you decide on this. You may need a letter from your H before you leave.
Cinders,
Since I am a man, it makes sense that my approach to life more manlike!
I am off to C now and instead of talking about H as I always do, it's time to discuss ME !!!!!
Excellent. Let's us know how it goes.
IMP
IMP - read my thread - didn't go too well, I've been thrown back in INDECISSION-LAND !!! URGH !!!
OC: Thanks OC for the advice. I'll give it some thought. I still have some time to think things through, but seriously - each day, I'm getting more comfortable and confident with my decision and can actually imagine starting my new life. The job I'd be taking would be totally new to me - definitely something I could apply to other future jobs as well. There are a lot of career options for me, actually, if I were to make the move. Will just have to sit on it for a while and really be sure about my decision. I'll check up on your post after this to see how you've been... Remember: patience!
HM: My H has fallen so far off of his rocker, I really don't think he'd care at this point. He and his family have known that if we were to D, I would most likely move. Back at the end of 2006, when we discussed me moving away, he said he knew that it was a possibility and hoped that I would move to the nearer of the 2 countries I could possibly go back to. But he said he wasn't ready for me to do that at that time. Immediately following our S, I left the country with our boys for a month, and then for another 2 months in Nov/Dec. Although I think he'd miss the kids (esp. S5), he's prepared to see us go. How messed up is that? Thanks for the advice, but my H won't fight me on it. The worst thing I'm imagining is that the family will no longer offer financial support, which I'm prepared for. Once my decision is made and things are put in to action, I am going to be very honest and open with them about everything, so that they know I'm not running away with the kids, but taking responsibility for us and our lives. That is my main priority, but at the same time, H must be smoking crack if he thinks I'd let my boys anywhere near that dirty "high class" whore of a GF he has. I'm not saying that because she's the OW - it's the truth - that was her previous profession, before H "rescued" her by opening a restaurant for her.
The latest news: Saw H on Saturday (see 9 posts up for how that went - basically H was cold and distant) and I was at the house again yesterday for several hours. H was there, but I didn't go up to his room at all to see him, like I usually do. Only time I saw him was when he came down around dinner time on his way out. This time, I didn't even bother saying hi to him, but he came out to say bye to me as he was leaving. So just now - H called on his way home from the airport asking me to return the camera that I borrowed on Saturday. Said he needed it this week. I asked him when he would next be at his mom's and he claimed since he just got back, that's where he was headed. So I asked when will he be there next (figuring tomorrow he'd be going back to his other place he still denies having) and he says tomorrow. Such BS - STILL!!! Asked him how his meeting went and apparently the contract he's been trying to get is confirmed, so I think he's really happy about that. I told him he'd done a good job, and then we hung up. Don't really get why he called - he usually TMs for stuff like that. Maybe cuz it was easier while driving? Maybe so I'd ask about his meeting? Yet another question I don't need to obsess over.
So today I find out that BIL (who supposedly hates OW) introduced OW as H's GF over 6 months ago to some mutual friends (who he maybe did not know knew me). Nice...
If anyone who has been on these boards for a long time is following my very scattered posts, have you ever seen such an awful situation? And is there ever ANY hope in a case like mine? Is my M worth holding on to? I know that every case is individual and that I'm backsliding with where I should be mentally - just really wondering if I should throw in the towel at this point and give up all hope. Obviously, I've been trying to do this, but in my heart, I still want the fairy tale ending - I want to be able to say 5 years down the road that we survived the worst of the worst and would love to be happily M to my H again. Would love an outsider's point of view.
It is possible if you want it.
I see moving as the only way to escape the madness and turmoil of this situation for me....I see starting over in a new place with a new job as the only thing that will keep me from killing myself. Replay has become too much for me to handle. The man I married is dead...but a replica keeps trying to destroy me.
Honestly, I do want to keep going - just not here, not like this. Like an2m, I also see moving and starting over as the only way to escape this madness. The recent revelations of his actions from the past 18 months are unimaginable. The man I married is also dead - I guess I'd rather think he's buried deep inside. I'm numb from all the things I've learned about him - I don't even think that finding out something as crazy as he's having a child with or already M to OW would phase me at this point.
There's been no spewing, so I guess I'm lucky in that sense, but his insane actions more than make up for everything else. Also did not mean to seem insensitive when I said that my sitch is the most awful case out there. I know we must all feel that way...
Feeling terribly sad today for some reason. And helpless too - I so wish that I could be there with him to help him through this now, but I know I can't. Just having a temporary moment of weakness - glad the times they hit are much less and don't last as long as before.
Dead is better...than you stop hoping for a return.....if it happens it happens.....having contact with the replica is devastating. The cold dark eyes.....the senselessness of his insidious behavior and treatment of me over the past year with OW is crushing. I dont get it. How can you treat someone you loved that way? Oh yeah MLC.....the ticket to temporay insanity
The drama continues.
Apparently, OW is showing her ugly side. Threw a glass at H after finding out that H had not told me that she is his GF (in fact denying she was even in the country). Stupid B*tch ended up stepping on the broken glass and cutting her foot open! Hasnt been able to walk for 2 weeks. Gotta laugh about that one. But I guess things are now back to normal with them. Am pleased though, that her jealousy is rearing it's ugly head. Oh - speaking of ugly - friend told H and OW that I was "shocked to see that that was what she looked like and didn't see her as a threat"!!! Not sure what friend was thinking telling her that, but am glad he did. Needless to say, she hates me.
Saw H yesterday but we didn't speak to each other. Im having a hard time being nice to him. And having an even more difficult time really giving up.
How do I justify giving up on my M after all that I've said and done these past few months, trying to save it?
an2m: You're right - dead IS better.
My H referred to Ow as "someone else" when I spoke to him the other day.
Wonder how Ow would feel if she knew her BF won't even refer to her by name??
When I found out what type of person my H's Ow was I no longer felt threatened either. If this is the kind of woman my H wants to be with then he isn't worth it. I am a much better person than she will ever be. I just wish my H would take off his blinders and see her the way everyone else does.
K
talk to Holly...the pole swinger she has great insights on this! It helped me to understand why they affair down. Yeah my H's OW is a cow..gained so much weight she qualifies as an amazon woman....ok it gives me some satisfaction i admit but i understand now why he doesnt see it.
KTF: I feel exactly the same. She is the farthest from the type of woman my "real" H would ever be attracted to. None of his friends respect or accept her. Actually, deep down, I don't even think that H respects her. He's the type that would never put up with anyone disrespecting anyone he loved. I too hope that he will one day wake up and see her for what/who she really is.
an2m: Thanks - I think KTF has already asked Holly for the info and got a lengthy and detailed response. When I first read about "affair down", before I knew anything about OW, I totally didn't think it applied to my sitch - but it is the perfect description after all. And it is actually a relief to see/know that... Have to admit - my confidence was really down when I thought she was some gorgeous, exotic, globe-trotting young thing. So far from the truth!
Just wanted to share what S who is turning 5 this week said to me tonight after I told him we can still love daddy but he doesn't have to live with us. He said "I think Daddy will be sorry that he's staying at grandma's house and will come back home to live with us. Do you hope that will happen?"
Yeah, I do hope that will happen. Crossing my fingers but not holding my breath...
well shes a young thing ...nothing else applies.....
talk to Holly...the pole swinger she has great insights on this! It helped me to understand why they affair down. Yeah my H's OW is a cow..gained so much weight she qualifies as an amazon woman....ok it gives me some satisfaction i admit but i understand now why he doesnt see it.
Oh you are soooooo funny!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holly the pole swinger---that is the first crack-up, then the amazon woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, goodness....you are too much!!
Thay affair down alright---
How are you doing AN2M?
If you really want to laugh, know that I am a Kindergarten teacher going to turn 50 this summer!
I need help fastening my garter belt, AND finding it!
Where did my breasts go? There were here a minute ago!!!!!!!!
Holly I am a 51 yr old equestrian.....pole swingein' sounds fun.....your posts help me calm down a bit....
SF, Better it goes in spurts ..tomorrow is meeting with L for hearing about D in June....turns my stomach.....but Hollys outlook about OW helped.
I do have a rank sense of humor...
Journaling...
Confused, even though I know there is nothing for me to be confused about. Letting H's actions mess me up again, even though I know better - so just want to get thoughts down here and be finished with thinking about it.
So H knows that I know that girl he introduced me to is OW. Still has not admitted anything to me. Friends are all starting to get mad at and lose respect for H because of his actions lately (unrelated to me). Won't talk to anyone about anything other than work. None of that bothers me, but so much information coming to me from all directions lately. Actually, the more people lose respect, the more I feel like I need to defend H. Crazy, I know.
Asked H to join us tonight for dinner for S5's birthday. He did and it was good. First time we've had dinner out as a family since Jan (which is also when he said he had no more feelings for me when I asked him to come home - same restaurant too!). He was much friendlier than usual - seemed less depressed than he's been, talking/interacting more with me and the boys (both of them, not just S5 like he usually does). Of course, only topic was about work. My job came up and I said something about not staying there because the pay could not support me and that I have some options to consider (didn't mention they were overseas). He mentioned how much he will be making (which is very likely because of a contract he's secured) and how - I think he said "we" - could look at investing in something - can't remember his exact words, but it was definitely along the lines of his salary being good and him having enough money for me. I've learned to not depend on anyone anymore, so I am still deciding on my 2 options for myself. If he wants to contribute, great - but given the ASTRONOMICAL amount of debt he's accrued in the past 6 months, I don't see him having anything to spare once he begins paying that off.
Having S5's birthday party tomorrow at in-law's. I've invited several of our friends - really don't know what to expect. All friends have said they're on my side (even though I don't think there are sides to be taken). They have gone so far as to not attend a mutual friend's wedding because I was not invited (after friend found out H was bringing OW) and because guy friends do not want wives (my friends) to meet/find out about OW. Guy friends don't even know that I know about them not attending and wives are even more clueless... Felt really bad for friend, who apologized to me for not inviting me in the first place - said he should've asked H not to bring her and that he really wanted me there. That friend, who was previously on H's "side" is now starting to lose trust in H and thinks he has become extremely selfish. So much unnecessary drama. Anyways, have been good about keeping the drama out of my life lately. I'll listen and discuss stuff with friends who have info to offer (it actually helps me to know the truth), but I no longer obsess about H and his actions. I've pretty much just written him off as insane. Tomorrow is S5's day, so I'm sure everyone, including H, will be on their best behavior.
Happy bday to your Son.
Focus on that .
I hate that they are friendly and then not friendly and then we get sucked up in the drama.
OW is trash don't mind her. Hard I know.
It will easier with time. Detach a little bit everyday, take it half hour at a time.
I always try to think that H is just sick (as in having an illness). These H's really act and think totally different. From the worst part of my M a few months ago when h was almost a completely different person, to now when I am seeing a bit more of my original h back every week, the change is dramatic. Not just R stuff, just everyday thinking/acting.
Meanwhile, just focus on you and your kids. Forget h now. There is no need to put yourself through the roller coaster drama of him. Take care
People have told me that one day I'll just wake up and realize that I don't want my H back anymore. I think that day has come - except that I didn't actually wake up. Spent a sleepless night - first one in many many months - recounting the events of the past 18 months and still can't believe how horrific they really are. The lies he told and continues to tell to this day, even when there is no R between us, the things he has done to make this affair happen (trips to other countries to see her, bringing her here, borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars to open a restaurant to employ her so she could stay here, employing her friends from her country - paying them double what he could pay for staff who didn't require work permits, borrowing even more money from friends to keep the failing restaurant open, living with her - ALL facts which I have been told and not a single fact has come from him). MLC or not, this monster of a man he is now is not who I want to be married to nor the person I want to raise my sons.
I'm finally waking up. Now I need to figure out how and when to tell him about my decision to move several countries away (but at least in the same time zone...). Do I write a letter, email, call, set a time to meet him? Would much rather do it face to face but can't bear to see those lifeless eyes staring back at me. And what do I say? Still nothing about the hurt and damage he's caused? Or do I let it all out? And when do I tell him if I don't plan on going until the end of the year?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated...
It's been a while since I last posted. No new drama to report. But I have definitely seen a change in myself these past few weeks. I have completely let go of my H and finally realize that there is nothing left to save. At this point, I'm no longer even trying to rebuild a friendship with him because I know that he's not ready and I don't want to hear any more lies. Actually, I now find it totally unrealistic that I thought we could remain friends.
I've made the difficult decision to move at the end of the year but have yet to inform H and his family. Planning to do so in August. By then, I hope to have a better idea on whether I will file before I leave as well, or still leave that part to H. The decision to leave has been so hard for me to make, but now that my mind is made up, it's like a huge weight has been lifted and I can start making plans for my future. I'm no longer stuck. All of this is very liberating, but at the same time, very sad to see it end, and I know there is still a lot of drama to come.
The decision to move on emotionally has been difficult as well, because I would so much rather go through hell with my H now to have things work out in the long run instead of running away from everything. But I really feel that I have done all that I can do at this point. I can say I'll give him another 6 months, but I don't think he's even close to coming out of his crisis and I don't want to look back and see 3, 5 or even 10 years pass just like that. Given his tendency to avoid conflict, I'm not even sure he'll ever face his demons. I've realized a lot of things about him are not his fault - like his irresponsibility, which is totally a result of how he was raised, and how he continues to be pampered and saved by his mother. And because he will never take responsiblity for any of his actions, he will never learn or change. His family, as loving as they are to my boys, is extremely messed up and it's not the environment I want my kids to grow up in. This legacy of cheating husbands and loveless marriages ends here.
I wish that I could say that I still believe in my H. But he is so different from the person that I married. The person he is today has no courage, no sense of responsibility, no compassion. I have lost my respect for him. I want to get out of this M so that I can remember the 11 years we had together for what they were - a great friendship filled with love, passion, trust, honesty and overall, happy memories. With each passing day as my feelings for him diminish, the memory fades a little more.
I've had several vivid dreams these past few weeks about H coming back home and things being good. You'd think it'd make me feel good to have these dreams, but they actually are very depressing. H is still so far from waking up and even if he did, I sometimes dread the thought of him wanting to work things out. Up until maybe last month, I would have given anything to have him walk through that door again, but lately, I've literally started deadbolting it so he can't.
Speaking of coming back, I spoke to my friend (the one who just got re-married) who shared his story with me about his D from his ex-wife. They had been fighting badly over several months. His job required him to travel for several weeks at a time so before one of his trips, he told his W to figure out what she wanted by the time he got back. When he returned, she had his bags packed for him. 18 months after their D, she went crawling back saying she had made a terrible mistake and wanted to work things out. He tried half-heartedly, but it was already too late for him. He never claimed that she was having a MLC, but she says that she can't remember a lot of the things she said during that time and felt that all of the decisions she had made were wrong. She re-married twice, with both of those M's ending in D. So it does seem to be the pattern that they do come back - just never at the right time.
Feeling a bit flustered, but it's ok. Personally, I'm doing well after having made up my mind to leave. The problem is that I am now on the receiving end of a whole lot of information that our friends are now starting to share with me because they are genuinely concerned about how H is messing up his life. It's no longer just about our relationship - his financial situation is suffering to the point that he may have to declare bankruptcy and he's not even taking it seriously. Friends all separately have bits and pieces of the puzzle, but I now know almost all of what's going on with him and how he's even screwing his friends over. I've had to let friends know other facts I've learned so that they are protected financially, otherwise, I would stay out of it.
What I am struggling with now is that I worry his family will take a pretty hard hit if they decide to bail him out. Everything he's doing is without question for OW, who he has given control of the accounts too - she is filtering money out of the company and using it as her own personal expense account and H doesn't seem to care. Borrows more money to cover for it (tens of thousands). It's truly unbelievable what he's doing for her. She's got her claws in deep. I think I've decided to just let it go and hope that he really hits rock bottom so that he realizes what a fool he's been and how he's lost everything. Me telling the family would only make them question my motives. But in this case, I think tough love may be the answer and it's a lesson he's going to have to learn the hard way.
*big sigh*
still,
You never know if someone will get it or not. Think of the people who die from drug overdoses. All you can do is live your life and protect yourself, your children, and your assets.
Good luck with the move.
IMP
Good analogy.
I've saved up a decent amount in the past year since we split. Stupidly, I am trying to think of ways to help him pay back his enormous debt to our friends. Those friends have adamantly told me this is not my problem to worry about, which I know - I just don't want this to be something that hangs over my kids' heads. I can just imagine hearing it 10 years down the road ("your dad owes so much money to my dad"). Just did some retail therapy (with my own money) and feel terribly guilty knowing he owes so much to others.
The move isn't until November, so I still have lots of time. Still need to tell him! I really want to get it over with, but the timing just isn't right. Soon...
Hugs to you. H needs to learn the hard way. He probably needs some advice now. UNFORTUNATELY, although you may know the situation best, you are definitely not the one who can say anything. It will only seems to be pushing or the advice will be taken in the wrong way. Not sure how you really can help other than protecting yourself and your kids. In this way, H only has himself to worry about when things go very bad (like OW cleans out his accout and runs).
good luck with the move. Tell him when are you ready to tell him. I think you will feel really detached when you no longer let his circumstances to affect when you tell him. Frankly, I think from now till November, there probably won't be any good timing. (sorry to be so brutally honest).
good luck
You never know if someone will get it or not. Think of the people who die from drug overdoses. All you can do is live your life and protect yourself, your children, and your assets.
That is so true. My sister almost died from liver failure due to her drinking several years ago. She recovered but did not learn from the experience. She has been homeless, beaten by men, and still has never hit bottom. She is still an alcoholic, and I believe she will never quit drinking.
I cannot imagine my H ever stopping his computer addiction. It has been a problem for 20+ years. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up dying in front of the computer like the man in this story:
S Korean dies after games session I have an aunt who gambles and she has lost everything she has. She lost my grandmother's home, all her savings, and her job. She still gambles and no one can stop her.
What I am doing to protect my children is to set limits on their activities to balance their lives. When they are at their father's apartment they play excessive amounts of computer and video games, so I severely limit it when they are here.
OC! Good to hear from you! How are things with you? The situation escalated last night when H made a last ditch effort to save his restaurant by calling a meeting with all his friends to try to borrow more money. Thank god, they ALL said no and have hopefully convinced him that closing the place down is the best thing he can do. His debt is beyond enormous at this point. We'll see what happens in the next few days. A few have told him that the reason they will not lend him the money is because OW and her friends are involved and cannot be trusted. H still refuses to see/believe it.
HM: My H gets addicted to games in spurts. Currently, he's addicted to Warcraft and spends all weekend playing it online. I'm a big fan of our new Wii, and honestly, I have to say, it's a great way to pass time and just zone out. I can understand why H does it, given his situation. You get absorbed in to this other world and don't think of anything else while you're playing. Plus, if you're good at it, it's very "rewarding" and makes you feel successful, which is not happening in H's real life. Good thing for me, I actually know when too much is enough and am not an addict (although maybe I would be if I had more time!).
Called H this morning because I needed to ask him about some legal issues (regarding our permits to stay here). He didn't answer, so I TM'ed him to call me back. He did and started to talk to me about what is going on with the restaurant. We haven't spoken to each other, besides Hi and Bye, for several weeks. Told me that he has to shut his restaurant down by tomorrow. Then started talking about S5 (which he doesn't do often with me), saying how he wants to bring him around with him today - to the restaurant, to a meeting, to buy some games. Without giving him a reason, I told him I'd rather he didn't bring him to the restaurant (assuming OW would be there). He thought about it for a second and said ok (seeming to understand), and I thanked him. Said he might bring him to his meeting and I asked him to keep him out of that as well. H asked if it was because S5 would understand, and I said yes. He then started to tell me how smart S5 is, and I said the same, but couldn't control my emotions and he heard it in my voice and asked me nicely why I was crying. Luckily, his other line rang just then so he had to call me back and by the time he did, I was able to compose myself again. Regarding the legal stuff, I said I just needed some things from him and I could go take care of it this week on my own, but he said that he would go with me.
It just sucks because I haven't broken down in such a long time. Been feeling really emotional the past few days and broke down yesterday after exchanging a few TM's with one of H's (former) best friends (also my best friend's H). His TM said: I'm sorry for how you feel (my name)... you must really miss the old (H's name). I guess it set me off because it's the first time in the past year that someone has realized that. Mostly, it's feeling helpless that there's nothing I can do in H's situation - although it's his own stupidity that got him in to this mess. Also could be because I had movers come to do a run through of the house and get details about the move. Even if I'm ready to go, it's all a bit much to take in at once...
Anyway, after a few good cries and some sleep, I feel better.
Back to being strong...
Another thing that's getting me down is the fact that things are starting to change for H - he's trying to rebuild his R with his dad and the restaurant is closing. Yet, I realize that these changes mean nothing for me. These changes are not an indication that he will come home or feel regret/remorse for what he's done. Even though I've given up, the changes give me false hope that he's waking up and will somehow undo all the wrongs.
Saw him tonight at dinner at in-laws. He had just come from a meeting with person who he owes a ton of money to. He seemed really down, which I took to be a good sign, thinking he was starting to realize things. He was pretty open and honest with me, but I still think he is delusional about a lot of what's going on in his situation. Guess he still hasn't hit rock bottom, and like HM and IMP have stated, even if he does, it still means nothing.
still,
It is a difficult thing time. Your emotions sway and it is normal. The young ones make life tough because they need so much from you. Try to pull yourself out of his stuff and concentrate on yours. Finding what you want for you and you alone is a place to consider. Try and visualize doing something that will make you happy with no one else around. For instance, in trying to make the next step in my job, I am visualizing tasking a certification test and when I am involved in a project, I try to visualize how I would lead that project.
Hang in there. Try to relax. I know you have to be involved with the man no matter what happens. All you can do is be the best you can be. Everything else will fall into place whatever that place may be.
IMP
Need some help with letter to H. I've asked him if we can meet sometime (so I could break the news about moving to him in person). His reply was "maybe next week" - which probably means never, as he's been avoiding any discussion for the past 6 months. I realize he communicates better through email and over the phone, so maybe telling him via either of these methods is better. Anyway, I don't really need a reply - my mind is made up and I think it's only fair for me to inform him of my decision and to have him hear it from me rather than someone else. Took a few things from what I've been reading on the BB from oldtimer (what I didn't give in our R) and IMP (moving forward). Thanks for that. Any advice on what I should omit or add, or if whole letter is too sappy or still places blame on him, or if I should forget the letter all together??? Also, should I mention getting D before I leave? (I say that I am finished with this M, but I guess in my heart, I still have 2% of hope left that he will miraculously revert to his old self).
Dear H,
I have finally made the difficult decision to move. I'm sorry that things have ended so badly between us as I had really hoped that we could find a way to work things out, even if it meant not being together as a family. But the lies and all that has happened has made that impossible at this point.
I sincerely hope that you have found in your new relationship what I wasn't giving you in ours. I don't doubt that she's good to you and that your feelings for her are true, but one day, not necessarily from me, the boys will know who, or rather what, you left us for, and that is something that we will all have to live with. I do appreciate that you have limited their contact with her, whatever your reasons for that may be, and trust that you will continue to do so.
For the boys and for myself, I still want the family and life that I have always dreamed of, but it's no longer something that I can do living here. Please know that this has not been an easy decision for me, but it is what I want and what I need to do to move forward from this crisis. As promised, your role as their father will never be denied. But as you have said, if distancing yourself from them is easier for you, I will try to understand and do my best to help them understand the situation as well.
We have a long relationship between us, filled with many happy moments and no matter what has happened, that history cannot be rewritten. I will always have fond memories of us together and will always be thankful to you for giving me the two greatest gifts of my life, S5 and S2. Because of them, you will forever be family to me, no matter where our paths may lead us.
Love,
me
still hoping, please check your email. thanks. ourcrisis
Still hoping - wow, how I could have written my letter, we share exactly the same feelings - don't we all huh !
Let us know if you send it please, and what his reaction is....
Take care - I think you are a brave woman to be doing this !!!!
still,
I am going to leave the office. Be home a little later and want to take another read through your situation. I just want to make sure I understand everything. Also, it isn't a bad idea to give it one more thought yourself and think about the response you might get.
hang in there.
IMP
I sincerely hope that you have found in your new relationship what I wasn't giving you in ours. I don't doubt that she's good to you and that your feelings for her are true,...
What's up with that???
I'd say just snip that bit right out, and leave in the stuff immediately following it!
still,
I read back through to see if anything new jumped out. Firstly, if you are sure this is the right move for you, then the letter is a good one.
Now, let me play devil's advocate. Your H decides no way the kids leave, then what. You could have trouble on your hands. I am sure you are aware of it.
Next. Your son. I know you said he doesn't want to leave, but that you can't base your life on what a 5-year old wants. Why doesn't he want to leave?
Are you leaving out of far? How far away will you be? I am asking because this is a big move. I know you have said a number fo times that you are done. If you are, no problem. It isn't a bad thing to think things through one more time.
Also, think of reasons to stay. Do your homework.
Good luck.
IMP
Thanks to all of you who responded...
Dom: The reason for that statement was to take my responsibilty for the failure of our M, which I have never admitted to him. I know that having him make himself a hot dog for dinner literally once or twice while I had 2 small kids to take care of is not grounds for a D, but looking back, there are times that I could/should have been more attentive to him. Also, in a way, I hope that he will maybe question his current R and see that it's not all that great and he's still the empty shell he was when he left. He certainly does not appear any happier.
IMP: My fave critic. (You're not a C, are you? You should be...) Thanks for taking the time to look back through my sitch. Honestly, I haven't really considered him not letting me take the kids because he's accepted that it could happen and in an old letter said that that was what was hurting him the most. Legally, I don't think there are laws here that would forbid it, should I get custody (which, after consulting a lawyer, I would most definitely, since I am the sole caregiver). As for a response from him, I'm not expecting anything. Maybe a little bit of him going deeper in to the tunnel, if anything.
My son doesn't want to leave because, well, besides being 5, this is the only life he knows. He loves his life here and is a pretty sensitive guy who doesn't easily adapt to change. When I spoke to him about it the other night, I said that I feel bad about leaving because it will make one set of grandparents (my parents) very happy that we will be living closer to them, but make his other grandparents very sad that we are leaving. S5 said "What about Daddy? I think Daddy will be sad." He adores his dad and believes his every lie. He's perfectly happy at home with me, but can't wait for Saturday to come to spend the weekend at his grandma's house with his cousins and dad, which he does every week.
I am absolutley not leaving out of fear (is that what you meant?). Actually, I'm still trying to figure out why you would ask that (is there something deeper that I'm not seeing?). I will be several countries away, but about 5-6 hours by plane (and a visa) in a country where H doesn't speak the language. The main reason I'm leaving is to be financially responsible for myself (ok, with the help of my parents) rather than feeling like I am living under H and H's family. Also, I have very few good friends here anymore. Too much has been revealed to me about the events surrounding my H's A. Friends' H's were also admittedly involved in their own A's and I am having a hard time listening to my friends' (mostly my best friend's) thoughts and comments on what I should do when she herself is totally clueless about her H's A's (yes, plural). Last week's comment was something about "seeing the signs" and the other day it was "why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you?". Understandably, she is trying to help the best way she knows how, but is completely naive.
Anyway, a lot of my time here is spent with his family because they help me watch the kids when I am at work and always welcome me for dinner. I admit, I do hang out at the house too much (H is not there except on weekends), but I enjoy having people to share my kids with. The family has so many issues that I don't understand and are very secretive with each other. I end up getting hurt by feeling they are not telling me things, although I know their intentions are not to hurt me. They just have a very strange way of dealing with things and are notorious for avoiding issues. I don't want my boys to grow up that way. On top of that, H's restaurant is closing and now BIL (H's sister's H) has borrowed money from his own father to turn the restaurant around. According to H, H will have nothing to do with it. According to SIL, H does have something to do with it and has shares in the company. Undoubtedly, H will convince BIL to keep his skank employed so that she can retain her work permit and stay in the country. In the end, no matter what she did before being saved by H, H is their blood and his family will accept her.
The only reason I can think of to stay would be to have an easy life - pretty much be a "kept" woman by H's family. It's just not me.
So this was a little longer than I planned, but it's helped me... sorry, no time to proof read either...
still,
I asked about fear to cover all the bases. Just making sure that it wasn't the fear that you would have to do it all on your own in the country that you currently live. That's all.
The biggest difficulty I have seen is the son and his love for his father. Just make sure you are ready for a reaction from your H. And be ready for one from son when you move.
But my whole motive in my prior post was to get you to think things through one more time before you send the email. No doubt this is a sad time that things came to this, but you have been fairly resolute in your plan. Fortunately, 5 hours isn't too far for a dad to travel to see his son.
I wish you well and will keep track.
IMP
Thinking about adding something like this to the letter, but not sure where to fit it in:
I've tried to figure out what I did to you that was deserving of these lies and this nightmare in general, but have come to accept that maybe it is something I will never understand.
Too much blame?
As for the latest news (the hits keep coming!), got some major anger and annoyance from H this morning from me trying to get his old passport which I needed to renew our permits (oh yeah - he ended up not going with us to get them after he said he would). I remained calm and as kind as I could be and seemed to settle him down a bit and get him to help me out in the end. When I got his passport, I realized why he was so reluctant to let me have it. He had removed 2 visas that were in there to her country. I knew that he had gone there once last year to see her (he told me it was for business) but obviously, he had gone again (maybe to bring her back here) and didn't want me to see that. Not sure if he realized or just didn't care that the consulate places a stamp half on the visa sticker and half on the passport page for both visas (probably so visas can't be transfered and tampered with). There would have been absolutely no reason for him to remove the visa if he had only gone once, since we were still together during that time and I was fully aware of it. Definitely trying to cover something up.
The second little bit of information I got was that his restaurant/company was incorporated 5 days after we split last year. Which means he was planning this while we were still together. Unbelievable. According to friends, he had taken several trips to try to sell the idea to investors months before we split and was intending for me to never find out that he was behind the restaurant. (Did I ever mention that restaurant has her last name in it?)
Somehow, he stupidly believes that I still don't know about OW. Thinks that he got away with it by using another name when he introduced her (duh! it was the same fake name she gave me last year!) I think because the old me would have confronted him immediately on all of the things I've discovered, so he really thinks that because I haven't said anything, I don't know anything.
Have also learned that the place he is staying in is crap. An old run down place - which - here's the kicker - he's sharing with at least 2 of her friends! So all together, there are 4 of them staying in a tiny, crappy place. And their rent is 2 months past due. I should add that this is someone who had his own HOUSE on the beach in an exclusive neighborhood while he was in college. Besides me, never even had a roommate before because he hates living with other people. Whatever!
I need to pass him mine and kids' passports in the morning so that he can finish with the permits. Have to continue to be nice out of fear that he won't return passports to me, then I'm really screwed. Will try to sit on the letter a while longer if I can control myself. Oh yeah - on the forms, it asks about marital status, with "separated" being an option. I asked him if he thought checking that box would lower my chances of getting permit renewed and he said maybe, so guess he will be checking "married" on his form too.
still,
Take care of things one at a time. You need the passports. Don't say anything else. Hold the email. You send it when all your ducks are in a row. You can say too much too soon and screw up your plans.
IMP
Dom: The reason for that statement was to take my responsibilty for the failure of our M, ...
taking responsability for that, is not the same thing as saying, "i hope you are happy with your new mistress".
That was the bit i was suggesting you leave out.
Way too much info, way too intrusive (H does not want to be in your memories and in your family forever), way too much everything. Quit trying to win him back, make the light bulb come on, etc. Stick to the basics.
Dear H,
I have decided to move as I believe it is the best thing for the boys and me to share a healthy and happy family life. This is a move for me and for my life with the boys, it is not meant to exclude you, their father, from the boys life. Let me know when you would like to discuss visitation.
I wish you happiness. I will quit acting as though you are accountable to me in your personal life. Your Rs with any OP are really your business at this point. I guess I get concerned about how our sons will take things in time, but that is my problem. It is really your job to manage your R with them, I recognize that it is inappropriate for me to try to do so.
Thank you for giving me the two greatest gifts of my life, S5 and S2.
With respect,
me
oldtimer,
After she gets the passports. Do you agree?
IMP
"Thinking about adding something like this to the letter, but not sure where to fit it in:
I've tried to figure out what I did to you that was deserving of these lies and this nightmare in general, but have come to accept that maybe it is something I will never understand.
Too much blame? "
I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Assuming you are, yes, it is too much blame.
You are still trying to work out problems in your old M. Your old M does not exist. Both you and H will have to work through those problems in a new R, whether it is with each other or with OPs. But, those problems will be addressed in the context of an R between romantic partners. You are not romantic partners now. There is no current need for you to address such problems.
Try journaling. Get a journal and write letter after unsent letter to H. But don't send them. It is not appropriate. It is not going to help you reconcile. It is not going to help you move on. It is not going to help you be better co-parents. Let the old M go and focus on yourself.
YES, ABSOLUTELY IMP, AFTER THE PASSPORTS!!!!
I'd say moreover, after she meets with her L and is sure a move is not going to hurt her legal position in a D.
There really is no need for communication on this stuff other than, when it is time and necessary, "BTW H, I have decided a move is the best thing for, the boys and I will be moving out on such and such a date."
Good point with the lawyer.
Geez guys, lots to rethink...
And this was already a short letter, coming from me! Have given myself more time before giving him the letter - probably by the end of the month. That'll give me some time to come up with something better and more concise. Also, with all that's going on, I'm a little too emotional right now and don't want to be when the time comes to talk to him about this. Need to just let things settle down for a while.
Regarding the D, I think I'm going to hold off on that for now too. H is not making enough money but will be within the next year (although he owes so much that he'll be paying people off for years to come). I know that I am entitled to child support and alimony, but I can do without. The only reason I want it is because if I don't take it, OW will. So because he's really not making much now, there is no point for me to file. The D is just a piece of paper to me anyway, at this point. If later there is even less for me, I see it as nothing lost because I never expected it to begin with.
Thanks oldtimer and IMP. I'm gonna re-read your suggestions and re-write my letter. Soon...
Dom: I can see how you would read that sentence that way, but it was not intended to refer to happiness. But since it could be misread that way, I will probably leave it out. Thanks.
BTW, H claims that he is "completely satisfied" in his sitch now. Yeah, right! He's hundreds of thousands in debt and doesn't look happy to anyone he knows! Totally delusional.
still,
No need to do the D now. It is just a good idea to make sure what you are doing will not cause you problems later.
BTW, H claims that he is "completely satisfied" in his sitch now. Yeah, right! He's hundreds of thousands in debt and doesn't look happy to anyone he knows! Totally delusional.
I don't think I've posted to you before, but this caught my attention.
My W is also delusional. She is not suffering from Panic attacks. She ignores anything that I tell her about how our children are depressed. She tells me that everything will be better when she gets her own place and how everyone will be happy but then she tells my S7 that the place that she is moving to is a dump.
However, this dulusional state is a good thing in my mind. To me it says that this whole thing is a function of them not being well rather than reasons that they actually state. Patience, Patience, Patience.
Still hoping, just be prepared of anything H may do.
Remember, H is not H now, he is an alien. And an alien influenced by OW. Some of the things he may try (no matter how impossible it may seem):
- get a quick divorce from you (w or w/o ground)
- get custody of the kids
- cancel your visa suddenly
- come running back to you and ask for forgiveness (2x4 time,
this one is unlikely at this point, just an inappropiate joke)
- discuss with you about keeping the kids himself (which may happen)
- have his family talk to you (nice or otherwise) and try to influence the outcome towards his preference
- his family may try to talk you into smoething. be prepared for that
- no reaction, and let you do whatever you want (this will be hard on you emotionally)
Just be prepared as much as you can so you can remain a dignified person in front of him no matter what. I am guessing it will be at least a few difficult days after you tell him adn the family finds out about it. Will you be able to take care of the kids, after those days, instead of relying on his family?
take care
H stopped by this morning to pick up passports. I explained what he would need to get extensions on all of our permits (which I had already told him yesterday, but he still hadn't done anything about). I had our other IDs stuck inside his passport, on the page of the missing visa and opened it to show him where the IDs were.
Just as he was about to leave, I said with a big smile "It's a felony to tamper with your passport, y'know..."
His reply was "Huh?" and then "What?" and then he started to drive off.
A few hours later, he dropped by again to give our passports back to me, with permits extended for 10 years. Phew. Am relieved to have them back in my hands.
You are funny, still. Felony...ha!
Ok. Next step. Be satisfied that legally you will have no problem leaving. Again, that doesn't mean you have to start divorce proceedings.
Remember. Get all your ducks in a row before you spring this on your H.
IMP
I think I need a new screen name considering I'm no longer hoping...
Feeling much calmer and less emotional the past few days. Have decided not to file for D at his point. It's just a piece of paper and I would not benefit in any way right now. And after much thought, I don't want OW to get anything that should belong to my boys.
As for the letter, I still think I will stick to something closer to my original, just because it's how I feel and I'm not trying to save anything anymore, so I feel like I'm being fair to myself by telling him all the things I've kept in for so long. (Sorry oldtimer...but I do appreciate your input and will still consider what you said...)
Instead of the letter, I have also been thinking of just having a talk with him and saying somthing like: I accept that you and I are over and I'm really ok with that. I do hope that we can start being friends again when you're ready.
I think he is confusing my friendliness with me still wanting to work things out. I'd like some form of closure rather than just letting things end the way they have.
Is there any point for me to continue my efforts at just being nice to him and trying to build a friendship with him when he doesn't reciprocate? Wouldn't going dark and giving him space, etc be a DB tactic? I'm no longer trying to save my M. I just want to end it on better terms, but is it too late for that?
You might try saying instead:
"I care about you but I am moving on with my life."
Beautiful, breton. Short and sweet is the way to go.
Having a crappy day. Started off good with a company golf competition. Trusted H to get S5 to school for me (which he never helps me with). He told me nicely last night that he had to interview someone around that time but for me not to worry about it and that he'd take care of it. S5 called me 3 times to let me know Daddy still had not come to get him (sent someone else we trusted to do it for him, but S5 refused to get in car with him). I asked H to try to bring him to school, even if he was going to be late, but never heard from him again. S5 ended up staying home from school (at in-law's with in-law who doesn't drive). Normally, I would have freaked out at something like this, but I let it go because it's just one day of kindergarten. I know now not to trust H though. Feel bad for S5 because I think he is also starting to realize H is unreliable, but still doesn't want to admit it. H also left S5 on Saturday night which is suppoed to be his night with him. I am guessing that he's having problems with OW because he's doing a lot of the same things he did during their last fight a few months back (contacting old friends, contacting me for no real reason). Plus, a friend ran in to skank yesterday and said she looked like she got run over by a truck - no make-up and huge black circles under her eyes, like she hadn't slept in 3 days. I figure she's freaking out because all of her friends (their roommates) have left since restaurant closed (taking tons of cash with them, I assume) and she now has no one to spend the weekends with, so she's trying to get H to spend time with her instead of S5. Of course, this is all just analyzing and does nothing for me.
I guess what's really got me down is that our 2 dogs are suddenly both doing poorly, healthwise. I had to bring one down to the vet Saturday night to have to 2 lumps removed because one was starting to bleed. Then today, the other one who has been fine all along, is having trouble standing (maybe hip dysplasia?). The first dog was a kind of like a gift from my H to me. I always say he got the dog to trap me in to dating/staying with him (he got him 2 weeks after we started dating). He was our first baby. We got the 2nd one 2 years later. It seems strangely symbolic that they are suddenly sick after being completely healthy all their lives, although they are old for big dogs at 12 and 10. Coincides with the demise of our relationship...
As I was cleaning up the kitchen tonight, S5 asked me to bend down. I did and he gave me a kiss on the cheek and then hugged me. S2 joined us and I hugged them back for the longest time, not wanting to let go. It was just what I needed.
Still don't know what I want to say to H, if even anything at all. I'm just so sick of it all.
Hi still hoping,
Thanks for posting on my thread. I have not followed your sitch, but I just read that you are not standing anymore. You need to do whatever you think is the best for you.
You seem to have two lovely kids who love you. Take care.