Well All
,
First, sorry for the length of this. I have a lot to figure out.
I feared writing here, since I wondered if I'd jinx things up by doing so. If you followed my sitch, you know that 18 months ago, my Hmlc went off to do a fellowship, for yet another medical credential, and did so without my consent. He had interviewed/applied and decided WITHOUT my knowledge or input and so I was deeply hurt and he knew it. Left anyhow. I began the DB work one year ago.
H acted as if he HAD to do it. Never said he was "leaving" as in the M, just "going back to school up the road" (300 miles away). And all of this was to enable him to pursue a job in Alaska, the one place I did not want to return to. He denied that at the time, but it was true. So he now lives 3000 miles away. He pursued that job without my knowing it and accepted employment there, and let me guess what was happening once it happened. There was a lot of deceit involved, denial of doing anything wrong--H felt if he wanted something career wise, it Must be good and therefore I should support it......So you know, My H is an MD and that is his 2nd career and I've been with him through the whole deal, first career, med school, residency, blah blah blah. M Over 25 years with 3 kids, s20 in college, d17 and d9. We've accomplished a lot. Both have professional degrees, great kids...he was earning plenty of money before he went up there last summer btw and this has cost us a fortune in lost income since he took huge pay cuts (temporarily he says). It'll take awhile for us to catch up financially even if he Does make a gazillion dollars up there, eventually, as he hopes and believes he will. And he probably will. And since his money numbers are likely true, he seems to think it justifies the choices made.
Looking back, I see mistakes made on both sides. As much as he wanted the fellowship, I feared it was really about returning to Alaska, and that was true as it turns out. That hurt b/c I could not understand why he didn't just take it off the table once he knew I didn't want to live there. Would have been easy for me to do. In fact, I did that for him with other places.... But, I took his desire to return there as an example of how little I meant to him and now I can see it had very little to do with me. And H does love our children. It is still beyond me how he could be willing to miss so much of their limited time with us (we have a d17 whose last 2 years at home will have been spent without H here...???). But I also took his long hours, which were sometimes volunteered for extra money, as a screwy priority system and an example of him choosing career/money over family,etc. and then when he would come home, I would have my arms crossed, emotionally. I wish I'd made a home environment happy enough that only an idiot would choose working over coming home. It would have not made a total diff since H is a workaholic, but it would have been more loving and maybe more successful than what I did do. God knows, tactically I was stupid. I feared complimenting him too much b/c I actually thought H would then take advantage more, and would work even more if I put up with his horrible hours and complimented him at home, instead of complaining to let him know we wanted more of him....brillliant, huh?? Still, I made All my career choices with my family in mind first, especially since H didn't. Yet maybe he say my hours at home as a reason for him to work more, due to my lost income and I saw his longer hours as more of a reason for me to stay home with the kids....resentments grew, snide remarks cutting into our hearts...Yes, I would do things differently...but I can't go back in time.
Anyway, since his fellowship boards took place in early September, it is as if he just noticed he was alone up there. He no longer had "a goal" or objective to pursue just in front of him. He must have looked around and said, "where is everybody?" He calls daily and tells me/us he misses us, needs us with him there (sometimes, less often, he talks of being together here) and generally says things I need to hear. Talks of what a great team we are, how our lives and future will be so great and that finally he has a job that won't eat up all his time, yet will provide financial security.
To sum up, he wants back into the M as if he never left it, but with the obvious condition that I join him after d17 graduates, or somehow we continue in this "commuter" M where we visit often but keep the main home here in southern california.....he really truly just wants me and d9 to join him, and he admits that. But he's willing to have something less, but I don't know what.
Here are my options: Weirdly, I was offered a very very good job up there, which I would not be offered anywhere else due to the shallow talent pool up there (I'm referring to the legal profession and my credentials/experience) and the relatively good pay. WTH?? H couldn't have caused it, although I am positive he was thrilled and must have expressed support of the idea once he heard I'd be a candidate...So, that's very UNexpected and complicating....
I could go up there and give it a try. might love the job, H might be the "best H he can be" using his words....d9 Might adjust, at least in some time, and be alright there until at least she's a bit older (the older the kids get, the harder the move and the worse the schools seem up there, to me). d17 will be starting college and MIGHT be alright leaving the nest, as I too leave it, taking her little sister with me. They are very close. The reality is that moving up there will cause upheaval in both d's lives, and mine. It only serves H's purposes, on its' face. But then, doesn't having an intact M do something good for d9? The girls and I have gotten our own rhythym here, and are coping pretty well. I can actually say we are pretty happy...but even that will change next fall when d17 goes off to college so even if I stay put, changes are coming.
It's that time of life when transitions of magnitude happen to all of us. Children get old enough to leave, but are young enough to still need us, we hope...Siblings part ways and learn to live apart, and yet try to stay close. I've seen my d17 visit her older brother, s20 in NYC and come back refreshed and happy....I am close to my sisters and we live 2500 miles apart....it can happen.
I dislike how I've been put into a position where my choices boil down to joining H up there, Mainly b/c of HOW we got to this point....his unilateral choices, secretly made, etc. I dislike having to hurt someone I love no matter what I do, all b/c of choices H made. IF I go up there, my d's are split up geographically even worse than otherwise, and there is huge upheaval in d9's life as well as mine. there are some legal ramifications too, but I think I can fix those. IF I do NOT go there, I can only assume H will either come down here and resent me, act spoiled and angry, which will lead to the final end of our M, or we keep on doing this weird type of semi-M where we see each other monthly, with maybe 8 weeks together per year, total....seems like that would end in D too.....I think....
No matter what, I know something now that I did not know 18 months ago. I believe I can be happy without a man at all, and certainly without H in my life. It's sad if we end b/c we could have had such a good thing later in life, b/c we had great passion and were a great team and H says that all the time. H wants "me" and no one else, etc..."great future", etc.
But as I look at him now, I see him differently. He is not a bad man and he is very smart, educated and interested in many subjects and not at all threatened by my own intelligence....but he is also selfish and at times, very oblivious to how his actions affect others.....which I think means he lacks empathy, or self awareness or something , some characteristic that I think I really value...so, where does that leave me? I do love him. But at times, I wonder if I'll ever feel the same about someone who'd risk losing our M and his only children's R's with him, for a job. I know, he does NOT think he did that. But he knows deep down, he missed a LOT of their years here, and he is dimly aware (maybe more but I can't tell) that he should have been there more for them, and for him...
I would never have done this to him or our children, for any amount of money. But as Was2sad said once, maybe this was something H "had to do" for reasons I will never understand. I get that, or I get that I won't get it....
H turned 50 last month and it was a big deal for him. I surprised him by flying up and he was really moved....I felt sorry for him being so alone up there, (although God knows I am glad he IS alone) and just couldn't see missing his 50th which I knew was traumatic for him. Unfortunately H may have interpreted this gesture to mean I want to live there....but at least it was a loving thing I did and it wasn't due to being manipulated by him, it was my choice....
In some ways nothing has changed externally, yet I am posting here. I guess it's cause H's tune has changed a lot and he is saying things I need to hear. Like he said he knows He can be a better H and wants to be....and says he kows he has "a lot of crow to eat and wants the chance to eat it" HIS words, not mine....but then when we are together, it only takes a few days before he gets bossy or critical and has a Hard time just hanging out and relaxing....always was that way though.
I have said "love is a choice" a million times. Yet I feel reluctant to make that choice right now. It scares me. What if H sees another job somewhere else, or gets itchy feet again, or has money fears again and hides things from me that have huge impacts on my life? I cannot endure one more single deception or manipulation again, I think.
And I have met other men, and have NOT had affairs. But I know they are out there and many of them have been hurt and are not jerks and I could be happy with one of them, and get to stay in a beautiful area of the country with weather that makes me happy....would that be so wrong of me to want? must I choose to stay M to a man who costs me so much emotionally and even physically, since living there will require AD's and a special light, extra working out, etc. to deal with the darkness.....to demand so much of me after so many years of that--his Medical career is sooo time consuming and labor intensive, I cannot imagine re-marrying a doctor again but of course, when we married he was not a med student, but a veterinary student and I thought our life would be so different. So did he.
What to do and how to do it? I still have forgiveness work, which I do realize. But more than that, I need clarity. And a plan. At least forgiveness Is a plan and I can do it regardless of my other choices. I don't want to be and won't be a bitter wife or bitter ex-wife, so I have to let go of all this.
But what is the Moral thing to do? Hurt my d's again, for H and the M? End the M? That hurts them too. What is the least painful choice to make? Isn't that the way we figure out what the right thing to do is? Does anyone have an answer?
I welcome input, big time. And yes, I see a pro-M counselor and have had sessions with the Db coach. They have been great but also seem to see me at a cross roads, and believe it or not, neither has told me to go on up there....nor have they said file for a D. I think they both wish that H would choose us, and then ironically, I probably would have little problem with choosing to join him, and give it a chance up there. Just so hard to do knowing that 1) H wouldn't do that for me and that hurts me deeply and affects how I feel about our M and him, and 2), it's hard to live up there in the winter and the winter is long.... I need sun light, period.
When we are together, we have fun and our intimacy is good as long as I stay in the moment, and or remind him gently when he gets to irritable/bossy or controlling. After all, we've done fine without him here, b/c of HIS chioces. It's hard for him to charge in and think he can start ordering us around.
But I hear some of the things he says, politically, or professionally, that sound foreign and or self serving to me....I see Him sometimes, like he is a stranger to me....not so kind, not so smooth, not so right....
What is this???? Why am I so confused when I thought I knew what I wanted for so long????
Christ, I wish once in my life a moral question would get a really clear answer, like with lightning or letters in the sky...etc. Then I'd do it, if I just knew what the right thing to do is......and since my pro-M mc is a Christian I've already gone over the biblical quotes so please don't tell me to just submit and follow my H, despite the deceit and the departure....it wasn't Christ like of him obviously. I am also a mother raising daughters (and a son) who need to know, as do I, the difference between pride and self-respect, which blurs often....the diff between punishing someone, and enforcing a well set boundary....
input welcome, Help...
j-
((((J))))
I think you are afraid.
In fact I know you are afraid of making a mistake.
I have told you before that you are an extremely logical and intelligent woman and you are trying so hard to make this into something that has the "right" answer.
It is a matter of the heart at this point, and only you can decide your own fate.
There is no right or wrong answer.
Hi J -
Wow, I think what I hear you say is that you want to stay in Cali with the girls and let them continue with school and be in the sun. It would be awesome if H would come "home" and join you. It sounds like you love him still, but also love your new life here. You've found that you can have a life on your own, and that is tempting isn't it?
I followed my H to Seattle – the weather was the worst for 7 long years! Great job, great friends, the kids still call it home, but I was miserable there. We've been in Socal now for 6 years, and I love the weather and the beautiful surroundings, but now my H has an opportunity to move to AZ for a great job. At first he wanted us all to go, and then he said "he" would just go until D16 graduates next year, and then it was he was going without us and we'll see what happens down the road. Wonder in my case if OW got invited. Doubt it though.
I'm sorry you have this choice to make, but it sounds like you have your bases covered. Don't sell the house – good plan with Socal real estate. Wait until your D graduates – that's a must. Is it worth a try to see if it can work again, even if it's in AK? Intelligent and bossy – sure it's not my H?
I wish I could tell you the best choice, but from reading what everyone here posts, they would give anything to have a chance to be with their S and be happy again. I get what you are saying though – some days I wonder why I would want to be with someone who is so controlling, critical, etc… then I look at my kids and remember how we got here … over 25 years of hard work and teamwork, and I can't imagine not having him in my life. What a crummy dilemma. I know that I would quit what I consider to be the best job I've ever had, leave my son and his wife (who moved here last year) and uproot my D17 (after graduation) to move to AZ if I thought we could save our M. But! I've only been separated for 6 months, with 2-3 "ugly" years before that. You have 18 months of building a new life behind you, and that is a big deal. You have to do what's right for you and the girls. I'll have to go with BND and ask "what's in your heart?" only you know that.
Hugs - Lou
Dear LL,
I don't know what's in my heart, or what's there is in conflict. Hey, AZ is sunny at least. And I don't know what you mean by "great" job for your H. I do think a kid finishing HS in one place or at least the last 3 years, is very good for them for roots and self esteem. I've been a military member and wife and moved a lot. It wears on the ego to be the new kid too often. Our son got to have his 3 years in one place, for the first time in 9 years for him...so there is NO way I'd leave d17 now or make her leave. IF I go up there for a job, I'll defer it so as not to destabilize her anymore than she already has been. her grades dropped her junior year (oh btw, guess what year H left????? One month before her junior year....gotta let that go too) so even though she has good SATs and "decent" grades, she is out of the Ivy league running now, which her brother attends. Not too fair. But none of this was. And as I said, H is not a bad man. he is a flawed human who has made some poor choices the past 2 years and didn't have any, or enough close friends telling him right from wrong, One good friend tried, more than once, so I have to recall that with warmth. There are those guys out there. Anyhow, once H saw that I really didn't want to go there and was saying "no" firmly, to something he wanted, for the First time in our M, he obviously didn't take it well. Seething, resenting and then deceiving....you know, if he'd come out and told me of his fears about not handling the gruelling hours of the OR with transplant cases, etc. and his fear that he only has a few (less than 10) years left to earn our nest egg, b/c he can't keep up the long hours for another decade, I would have heard him....but he never could admit things like fear....so it all just looked so selfish. And the PROCESS of making the choices is for me, MORE important than the actual decisions made. No one cares about the color of the car as much as being asked what color they prefer....know what I mean?
So, you are assuming your H wants the job more than anything else b/c nothing else is as important as HIS job....incredible and crazy and selfish--it all seems to be....and yet I wonder how much of this is a guy thing. It's as if they fear aging and never having made "it" or never finding the "secret to life" and the secret is, there is NO secret. Live as well as you can now, since now is all you can have control over. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow is promised to no one..... Men have burdens we lack, in some ways. Increased expectations from society about earnings/protecting us, being sensitve and loving one minute only to have to (theoretically at least) be ready to defend their family's the next minute, including maybe killing. It's a dichotomy that is unfair to men today. But then, some men are so afraid of really giving us a choice, so afraid the answer might be no, they stop asking and just start taking. If H had not dragged lies into this process, the job offer up there alone would have gotten me there, PROBABLY, for at least a try. But with his idiocy of the past, I am sort of paralyzed about signals and safety, etc.
I don't know of another Woman in our sitch, but assume you have one (OW) and that changes things emotionally, a lot, needless to say. What's up with that? Other kids? I have not read your post....I will.
And for now, other than trying to help other here, which DOES help us too, I have to figure out what my heart is telling me. My mc said today for me to KNOW one thing at least, that I CAN AND LIKELY WILL BE FINE and happy without H, living here with someone else who could/would love me....He reassured me that I shouldn't fear the statistics of women over 40, etc. and that helps me a lot some days. Other days I don't care about being single forever, as long as I have friends. Single may well not mean lonely. I am still considered quite attractive and am in good shape, just to be clear. I also know that won't last forever and I can already sense the curiosity about face lifts down the road, growing in me....hey, I live in southern california....Don't judge until you live near Cindi Crawfords all around you. Of course, that was an advantage of Alaska. Since I shave my legs AND brush my teeth, and have most of my teeth, when I visit up there I immediately leap two or three levels UP in looks so a 7 in looks becomes a 9...the opposite of LA.....
thanks for posting and let me know what you are doing. you sound as if the non-chalance of your H's view about leaving with or without you is so hurtful it puts quite a damper on the desire to uproot everyone, not to mention his OW issue. Maybe the move was a geographical proposal of his to escape the sitch with her and you? Anyhow, don't think moving there alone will be such a blast for him. God knows, my H is lonely. I know the advantages of watching chick flicks and leaving underwear around where he can't complain and I KNOW he has those advantages and less family responsiblitly and the unfairness of that, etc. But I know something more important too. I have our children and our friends and if I had to choose between his life, as it is today and as it will be down the road with our kids when they all grow up, I'd take my life anytime. H has lost so much more than I have and may never know that. But isn't the important part, that WE know it??? I do. And maybe one reason H is apparently coming around, is b/c he is starting to feel left out of th good stuff and he IS, since he is not here for it. ....so I call with some problems if they're important for him to know, but I make more of an effort to mention the fun things we do or are planning, small and big trips, getting the tree up and decorated, getting college letters in and applications out and visiting the campuses and maybe sending a text message out to him hinting at the blast we had....he gets it sometimes. He flew down early last week, so he could make our d17's show, which I directed, btw. She was a hit and performed so well, she is a gifted actress and as tears rolled down her face in her monologue (from "To Gillian on her 37th Birthday") the entire audience was crying or totally silent and she got a standing ovation.....she was also in some hilarious comedic pieces but it was clearly "her" night, if you know what I mean. H was there and quite proud, and happy he made it. I was glad too. For her mostly, but for him too....he has missed so much he'll never be able to make up for. BUt we are the luckier ones. You have a great job, and I have in the past, and will again but 'ain't no way" I regret the times with the kids over any of my jobs....
keep on keepin' on and let me know what and how you decide, and whether you get a bolt of lightning, etc.
j-
Oh and another thing...
There are lots of "mights" in your post.
So let me add some more...
Your D17 might really like going off to College and if she does well she can always transfer to an Ivy League school.
By the way my S20 was accepted to 4 awesome schools, 3 in Boston, he ended up choosing a school where he felt he could "fit in" better and wouldn't have to deal with too much pressure after the horrendous ordeal he had gone through with my H leaving, etc.
He is doing very well, great grades, full scholarship and is a PS major, wanting to be an Attorney.
Our children will be OK, you and your Husband laid a good foundation for them.
The MLC is just a huge bump in the road but they really will be OK.
The new employment opportunity might just be really good for you.
A new career, doing what you are good at I think it is worth a shot, you have nothing to lose.
You might actually enjoy Alaska, especially since you have teeth! You will be Miss Hollywood over there!! Which definately doesn't hurt the ego any!
You have been married too long to not take a chance.
You and your Husband might actually be able to have a much better marriage and your D9 will also have the opportunity to have both of her parents raising her.
I wouldn't worry about D9 and the school thing.
It is more important that she has some family security. And at that age they need both parents loving her.
Again, I do believe that you and your Husband laid a good foundation for your children and as long as you maintain this everything will be OK.
The way you view your Husband right now is going to be a little skewed.
You are normal.
Everything you are saying is normal.
You were betrayed, your whole life turned upside down and you had to survive on your own while your Husband was trying to figure himself out.
Yes it was selfish.
Yes it was wrong.
But he is your Husband and for your own happiness it might be worth a try.
You love the man, he loves you.
I am by no means trying to romanticize this, but can you look at this as an adventure?
A chance to try something new, but with the hope of something better then you had before.
Now lets get down to brass tacks...
(((J)))
You have every single right to be afraid.
I too have fears.
I think of the what if's.
I wonder what is going to happen if he ever flips out again.
I wonder if I am a fool at times for allowing my heart to be so willing to be broken again.
I wonder if it is me who is settling for 2nd best at times.
I go through a whole range of feelings.
BUT
I know I love my Husband.
I know I have to give this marriage one last shot at success.
I have to know I have done my very best.
So I am letting down my guard and taking that huge leap of faith.
25ymlc,
I agree, you need to do what is in your heart. Dig deep down inside yourself. Ask yourself what is it that is truly going to make you happy?
IMO, this has been such a long and painful journey for you I would hate to see you not give your M another shot, but if you decide not to I would understand.
Your a great person, given me so much advice and I love ya honey
Take care of yourself. I have all the faith in the world that you will do the right thing. You have come a long way and grown so much.
KTF7
Hey B,
So you know, back in '97 I was very pregnant and agreed to the original move there, (from San Antonio-which we all loved) b/c i was quitting my job anyhow, to stay at home with our 3rd, and probably last child. I knew H had only one assignment in the Army left, to pay back for med school. It was the Most loving thing I ever did for anyone, and I knew at the time that it was, and I remember trusting God and looking at it as an adventure. Granted, Fairbanks is a 10th the size of where H is now, (Anchorage) and not nearly as scenic, and actually in one of the coldest (and warmest in the summer--more extreme on both ends in Fairbanks) places as opposed to Anchorage. All true. But when we got to Fairbanks and I gave birth, shortly after, and I mean SHORTLY after, H went "native" on me and started in on the long hunts and fishing trips and blah blah blah and telling me how much he LOVED it there. Every effort I made to adjust, like auditioning and getting roles, doing stand up comedy, working at shelters, working out and going to a tanning booth, just to feel ok, (including taking anti-depressants eventually) were seen as Proof that I could in fact adjust and to just shut up about it, especially since I was no longer earning money...although unspoken at first, there was a noticable shift in "power" once I no longer got a paycheck and soon enough H came out and just said it. He bought high priced toys with no discussion, repeatedly -- a boat, an All terrain vehicle, trailer for the boat, snow machine, etc...... So I've done the adventure route, for the record.....
I know, it's been nearly a decade and he'd do things differently now, and so would/will I....I know. But I do have an adventurous streak, (I'm skydiving for my birthday next month, fyi, it is on my list of things I want to do before I die,--note the irony?)... I guess I just wanted to say that. The rest of what you wrote, I'll keep re-reading... it is good and I get it. And yet, my alternative to going off with H is not bleak to me. Finally. I have a life I enjoy here, even without H. I am not heartbroken today. Being with H is NOT the surefire way to happiness by any means... but as far as my d9, I see the value of an intact family and she loves her dad. But my d17 IS hurting from her father's departure, look at her comments, I didn't make them up and I didn't pressure her to say or feel that way. She just reacted like a normal girl who has a dad that left her just before her junior year of high school and won't be here for her last one....although he was totally present for our son's...you tell me how she is supposed to feel....in my opinion, their R will likely Never be as close as it could have been and I am sure her trust of men has been affected....and that saddens me, a lot.
BND, I also heard you about the "other man" in my life, or potentially in my life. He is a good man who deserves to be with a woman who is available. But I wonder if God didn't just send him to me to remind me, that it should NOT be fear of being alone that re-unites me and our H, but love for him and our family, and committment to the M.... So, while I fear reuniting and being hurt again, I will NEVER be terrified of being left alone again in the same way. So maybe I am not risking as much....??? Yep I am. B/C if H flips again, I will feel like an idiot...but I guess not for very long, huh? B/c I would certainly EXIT stage left, before H could blink twice, if he goes nuts again... okay, no need to decide today by noon....
thanks, a lot.
j-
Our stories are strangely similar in some ways.
My D18 had a very difficult time with her Dad being gone 3000 miles away.
She was always her Daddy's princess.
My D18 felt abandoned and was very angry.
There were so many broken promises and she went through hell.
So, what did I do...
I tried to fix things.
I made his promises become fulfilled though me.
For example, my D18 sings and is very talented.
He was the one who was supposed to take her to some contests etc, so I ended up doing it.
Including driving 2 hours at 2 AM to get to her to the American Idol tryouts for 2 days in a row.
I am the one who did all of the College stuff for S20 so he could attend.
It was me that did all of the Graduation stuff and prom stuff for both of them, he was off in lala land.
I hid the fact that I was totally broke from my kids and never badmouthed him in front of them.
I sold many personal items just to buy groceries and made sure the kids never went without.
My MIL owes me ALOT of money and I will never see a dime of it again.
When ever he played Santa I kept my mouth shut.
Yes the list could go on and on but what is the point anymore????
At this point in time, D18 and my H are doing well.
They talk daily.
They email and call each other and things are much better.
I can not fix their relationship anymore.
I am tired now.
This whole MLC crap has worn me out and I no longer want to even deal with what has happened.
But I can not run away from it.
I also know I will not die if H goes off the deep end and runs away.
I also know that I will never put up with the things I did this time around.
The thought of another man in my life does nothing for me.
I just can't do the dating thing.
I doubt much in this post makes sense, my head is probably filled with paint fumes, as I am redecorating right now.
But I wanted you to know that I hear every single word you are saying and you have many good points.
But you are also riding the fence and you have to decide one way or the other.
B,
I wish you were a year down the road so you could tell me how many times, each day, a memory flares up and catches your breath and you bite your tongue, b/c you don't want to ""ruin the moment" with your H, even though the memory is from HIS abandonment of you AND your c hildren and the separate life he led you know so little about, the "friends" he made and the ones you made who don't get how you could possibly take your H back "after putting [you] thru the ringer", etc. They are right, in their way. There were literally hundreds and hundreds of days and nights, and memories of them, that each contain a painful moment/hour/nightmare...
I want to know when your H tires of how long it takes for you to forgive AND forget, and how fast he goes back to his selfish or critical ways....and I pray he never does....
There are NO guarantees and there Never were...true. I gotta just relax and since I was put on this fence, actually, truth be told H is lucky I'm on the fence. Gotta say, if there were an OW i knew about, and it had lasted any real amount of time, no way could I do this at all....and yet so many on these bb do so....
The OM is kind and not pushy at all. Just saw my life, how H went nuts and kind of wondered if I was secretly a nutty psycho but got to know me thru our children, and figured out my H was in MLC and very far away. His WAW married her old boyfriend, so he knows what it's llike to have kids and be heartbroken and in that way he is a kindred spirit. But not pushing anything fast.... like I said, sometimes I think God boosts our ego just when we need it the most, or as a reminder of why we should make some decisions. Not fear based....And I AM doing my forgiveness exercises, they do help me a lot.
How has your H acknowledged some or any of the things you and I discussed about the nights/days/events/money problems/sad kids, etc.??? Did he do it at all? What are you telling the kids and what IS going on time wise with H? Is he moving back to a new job? Does he get how unhelpful things were financially, etc. Any chance YOU would uproot the kids and move to where your H was living (which is near me, as you know)? Think about that honestly and tell me what you'd do. I know you are not me, but I want to know what framework of reference to use, which lens to use, if you know what I mean. And just saying that it's a matter of the heart, isn't totally clarifying to me. I am in conflict, simply put. Thanks so much BND--
j-
Wow woman, there are lot's of words flying around in your mind.
Downshift.
Breath deep, slow down. Too many details to weigh. Lots of red herrings here.
No amount of consideration of so many details will give you any more confidence that any decision is the right one, than if you narrow this down to a few basic overiding issues - and face them. Who are you trying to convince, and who do you really need to convince? This jury has been given so much detail they forgot the charges.
He cut you out of his life and made eratic decisions that affect everyone in the family with no regard for anything but what he wanted. Is that who you M, or is that the guy about to turn 50 ... mlc?
How many guys at 50 are still trying to grow their earning ability dramatically instead of finding the best way to retire asap and play with momma?
If this is who you M and this is how he has always been, why so surprised now? I don't think so. I see mlc all over it, but haven't met the man. You have.
If it is mlc and you are detailing the last 18 months, review the mlc basics some more. You are seeing signs he is popping up out of the tunnel and looking for a safe place. He does not want to fully face his guilt or actions and hopes you will join his party. I'm not reading about his signs of crisis stage depression that herald Acceptance and Withdrawel like we typically see in the final stages. Maybe he is ahead of his class. Most mlc that return to the real world are gone a couple years up to five or more.
He misses you more than when he started this journey, so he is not totally gone. Is he totally finished with his mlc?
How can you make decisions for yourself or the kids unless you know? Do I need to repeat myself?
You are tossing around all kinds of "what if" so let me confuse you some more. "What if" he is not done with his mlc and you drag the family up there. "What if" it is not the life he thought it would be? "What if" it does not make him happy? "What if" you just can't do it when you get there, or hate him forever for making you? First, you will hate yourself for doing it, then him.
Then what? What eratic thing might he do next in his search for his lost happiness or meaning of life?
Do I want you all to be happy? More than anything else. Have you convinced me that such a move would make that happen? You haven't convinced yourself, so why me?
You said before that some parts of the cold state are prettier than others. Is he asking you to move to the place you would be happy or one that would make him happy? Is he considering a split family in one state that would reduce his weekend commute, and does it even matter? What do you want?
If you can't have what you think you want right now... how much are you willing to give up as you look for a settelment resolution?
If you have made it 18 months, can you make it 19 without deciding anything? Or 20, or more? The longer you consider your inner feelings and thoughts, these things will happen.
You will become more guided in your decision, more confident.
He will have more time to complete his inner journey, and contemplate how comfortable he is living out his daily life that far from family.
Are you telling us he has gone and gotten high pay credentials now that are only valid in one state in our country, that he can not now go get in Cali, or any other state if he desired? Or is the cold state just the one he has decided to live his last days in? There could be a lot of them ahead. Do you want to live yours in a place you honestly don't want to be? Or with someone you aren't honestly sure is himself again?
pondering .... hhmmmmmm.....
Thanks J –
My H left right before my D16’s Jr year too. Grades are in the toilet. He is trying to act concerned, but you have to be around it all the time, not just here and there to really get it and look like you mean business. My D has been looking for a place for him to live that she can stay with him now and again. She misses him desperately. He won’t tell us where he lives, well he says he lives with a work friend, but I know he doesn’t live there – I assume it’s with OW from some snooping I did. Yuck - D doesn’t know about that, and I won’t tell her. Our C said it’s important not to be too sad around her, or let her find out about OW – that she already feels abandoned by him. Great.
His job thing is weird, we were all set to move last year – a big promotion for him, and he decided it wasn’t worth giving my job up, his retirement, uprooting kids, etc. Now, he gets a better offer from them, and he is good to go – see ya, bye!
Looking back over the last several years, I see the depression and know that we were in for some crazy times ahead. Got to love that hind sight and all.
My C told me the same as you, you are a beautiful, vibrant woman, and won’t be alone if you choose to date. You shouldn’t fear the end of the M, just make it all about you for the first time and enjoy yourself. Easy for her to say! My H comes around a lot to “check in” on D (S20, S24) and myself, which I so look forward to, but which is keeping me from moving forward. I end up sitting around wondering where he is and if he’s coming over. His C and mine have both told him to cut me loose and move on if he doesn’t want to work on M. He said he can’t do that, “I’ve know W for 31 years and I know better how to handle this D.”
Good for you buddy! Doesn’t know me as well as he thought, or he’d quit acting like an
a@@!It is nice to hear about where you are now, and that you can move on and be happy. It’s wonderful that your D is so talented, and I know you are a very proud mom! If nothing else, this MLC crap has taught us to wake up and appreciate all of the wonderful things in our lives – our children, friends, family. I think we all get a little complacent – I know I did. I know you will make the best choice for you and your family. I think I’m leaning on you giving it one more shot. You’ll always wonder “what-if” if you don’t try.
Thanks for your advice and feedback, it’s appreciated!
Lou
J
All I can honestly say that as long as my Husband is willing to try I am also.
As you know, I packed up my house and was trying to sell it to relocate.
I was doing this more for the kids then for me.
As much as I love CA I also love my home here and didn't really want to give it up, BUT I would have done so had God not intervened.
My prayer was that my H would just move back home and IF in time we decided to move back to CA, that we would do it as a family.
As far as his job is concerned, he will be working for the same company doing freelance work.
One of the key differences between you and I is that you have completed your education, you have a career and are financially secure.
You have so much more independence then I do and in some ways that should give you some security.
At least if you try to make things work with you and your marriage and things backfire, you have the ability to stand on your own two feet and support yourself.
That is one of my biggest regrets.
That during the MLC I didn't just go back to school, as I would have completed my degree by now.
J, I don't like the idea of you and the OM.
If you are sharing personal things with him and becoming too close even if you can say you are just friends, it can be bordering an EA.
Two people going through similar cirumstances, a shoulder to cry on...you already know the schpeil.
Just be careful.
I don't want you to base your decisions on emotions.
Every day I deal with memories and I hope that in time they will go away.
Perhaps there will always be a scar there from the hurt that was caused, but I don't want to dwell on the bad stuff anymore.
For the two years he has been gone he has led a life that did not include me or the children.
He made new friends told many lies and tried to escape reality.
BUT
On the plus side, as much as he tried to forget about us he couldn't and is coming home.
I also have to look at the fact that he is giving up his dream job and returning to the place he ran away from.
I think coming home takes alot more guts then running away.
My Husband has been making apologies, things are moving forward and I am still working on patience and being still.
This time last year I was waiting for Divorce papers to arrive.
Now I am waiting for my Husband to arrive.
I see the light at the end of the tunnel.
J, this is a risk but I have to try it one more time.
J-
I've been reading along and am struck by a couple of things myself. I think we have to look at things from all angles. If you are still interested in your marriage I say what's not to try. You have a fantastic opportunity awaiting you with a new job - if you should choose this.
H deserted you for his dreams..........i guess this is where we face true forgiveness. Unconditional mercy. Humanly impossible - not impossible with God. I think many things have to be wiped out of our own minds if we're going to make the plunge again with our spouses. If we always remember the hurt we won't get over the hump and move on.
and besides..........you could love it there.....you don't know unless you try.
but you have to make a decision. I read in "Feel the Fear and do it Anyway" - there are no bad decisions - just different ones with different outcomes. If you do this than these things will happen, if you do something else then there's a different end. but.......you can make a good end out of any decision you make. It's up to you and your attitude.
And what's the hurry.......can this wait til the one daughter begins college? It may make more sense then? I think part of your problem is during the decision making progress itself. Once you decide what to do you'll go full steam ahead because you'll be able to start making plans. You are in limbo until you say yay or nay.
brue
Was2, BND, LL, Brun and all,
thank you all for the input. I am confused and conflicted obviously. I am also lonely and since H is 3000 miles away and OM is here, it does get harder to imagine continuing this "part time" M or whatever it is or will be....
I have much to consider and appreciate all that you wrote and will give it a lot of thought. I am not sure Was2 of your opinion or were you throwing out different questions for me to ponder? I believe that doing the morally correct thing is what leads us to happiness eventually, at least I know that I'd feel guilty if I did something I knew to be wrong and then later saw that it hurt others...and guilt puts a damper on my happiness....I just don't know God's will in this...for me. I think for H it's that he offers to return and we take it from there....
Gotta back off all the questions as you say W2, it doesn't have to be decided by noon on Wednesday and fyi all of you, there is NO WAY I am moving d17 anywhere her senior year. No matter what I do later, for the next 6 months we are here with her, supporting and encouraging her as she finishes her last laps of school with us...God I will miss her so much next fall. Pending sense of loss no matter what....damn.....
D17, for the record, has not once wallowed in self pity, nor has she once wavered in her support of me and her little sister d9. Her unrelenting patience and good humor with d9 make me want to cry....she's one of those old souls you meet now and then, but she is my daughter.... My God what a gift....and then at those moments, like right now, I realize with sorrow and pity, what H is missing and may not ever truly know....maybe not even truly know d17 as he missed much of her first 7 years, and now her last 2....tragic and costly regardless....
God help me if I ever hurt my kids like that. Guys, thanks again, you have given me a LOT to think and pray about. I just THANK you so much,
j-
j
Now you have me wondering if I had a point or just prompts.
I think mostly it was prompts since I was not sure what position your heart was telling you to take. I know you have no interest in the cold state. I know you enjoy your life with your kids in Ca. You should, where ever you are.
If you stay very still and hear Him tell you life with your H will be rewarding where ever you go, then maybe you will know. If you are told to continue to be still, then that is the thing to do. If you are told you should not be asked to follow without choice to a place you do not choose, then you will have a very hard decision to make.
What I would like to see happen is for your H to learn to be very still. I wonder what he would hear? I wonder what he would say if the two of you were discussing that inner voice over the phone for a few months? I wonder what he would say if you began to share some of your little prayers with him, or asked him to start joining you in one before hanging up? I am fishing without any bait so I may not catch a big one here.
I would consider a small one a great baby step.
take care
God W2,
your post brought tears to my eyes....what idiot woman let you get away? then again, the fact is that I'm a better woman/wife for all this "stuff" and might not have ever really gotten here, without it... (So maybe you were a big jerk before and that way this is ALLL gooood).
Seriously, praying is all I can do and I believe I will get more info on that job (if it seems as if I could really make more of a difference there, that'd be a sign to me)....and I will ask H to pray about it. When he is here, I will ask him to do it with me. Lately he has been receptive to me when I stay calm...
Are you happier now in your life W2? What do you wish had happened?
Do you know? just wondering,
j-
w2,
I know your w may not come back and that her absence is what you expect to continue...but how are YOU, when you are able to see yourself apart from the pain of her departure? And are your sons any better, vis a vis their mother?
I do know what you mean about other relationships taking on more significance...and what a good thing that is. Guess what I'm asking is where are you on the road of recovery? And thanks again for all you've written.
j-
Guys are quiet. They don't talk, just grunt. I don't always know what the boys mean when they grunt. They are 'bout grown now and busy trying to find a perfect woman. I miss them. I look forward to every little grunt, like it will be the last.
I am doing ok. I am looking in the mirror and asking "where were you when I needed you? Why didn't you make me a better more attentative H when she needed it the most?"
But make no mistake. I also ask "could this ever have been avoided? Why wasn't she willing to go to MC and fight for the M as hard as I wanted?"
I hear the answer "this was what was chosen for you. it is your test of faith in Him. it is to make you a better person" ... and I pray I am every day. I practice listening. I practice being still and content. I am not in the tough situation you are in. I am not faced with having to decide move my world, or not. I am blessed in many ways. I think we all are, if only we can put our life in perspective.
If we can only understand a small part of His plan, and do our best to do our part, what a life we will have. You will. You already do. Do not focus on the yet unknown, yet undecided, yet written. Focus on what you have, already enjoyed, and may yet reap. Do not limit your potential. Do not limit your happiness. Be very still if you want to live this moment. It is all we have, at this moment. What will come next is not for us to decide. We will be guided.
W2,
I wanted to ask what your profession is, assuming you are some sort of pastor or healer, etc. But then I thought "No, don't ask...what if W2 is a professional wrestler, or worse, a plaintiff's attorney?" SO, use your judgement W2, if you think I can handle the truth...You are so good with the words...and when I think of my "brilliant" strategies about making my H "better" by witholding affirmation, not wanting him to take me for granted, etc. blah blah blah, I shake my head and hope it'll be as funny someday as it is frustrating now... I think if we are actually to improve/grow from all this ....stuff, we do a lot of looking in the mirror.
thank you, you are making a difference in my life--so you know.
j-
J-
Just wanted to let you know that after I read your last post on my thread, I got up from my laptop and went in and sat down in the living room with S4. You are very right about my S4. I don't think that lack of attention is his only issue, but I know that it's a big one.
Many things you mentioned about yourself in the post got me to wondering about you and I've read through this thread. I am glad to have found someone who is also faced with the kinds of decisions I am re: major relocation and career stuff heaped on top of a long distance M that has only recently been rekindled.
I want to stay in touch with you. Everything you said in your post on my thread was very valuable.
I also want you to know my current slant on things: I don't have much faith that a crippled M can pull through these kinds of major changes, but I also think, the big advantage to giving the relocation a shot is that you will have closure if it doesn't work out and you re-relocate. You're not an idiot for trying again, you just aren't all-knowing.
J
I just tried to be very observant in life. Spent some time climbing phone poles in bad weather and fixing things, then babysitting and managing the new guys. Moved on to designing some wide area data networking and fiber optic thingys for some school districts. Took a lump sum early retirement to re-invent myself again. Was about the time of the beginning of the end of the M. Doing some construction and energy management thingy now at a school district. Maybe next I will try meditating in the mountains.
Only time will tell if any of us have been any help. We hope so. Till then all we can do is tell you how much we want to see your M succeed, as long as it is not at the expense of your own identity or spirit. Take care. Do good.
j-Thanks for your post over on my thread
Here. It caused me to come over and check out your sitch. I can't add anything - other than to say I admire your family committment, and God Bless You. I'm keeping an eye on your thread.
Dear BND and Was2,
glad I read the post tonight. Good timing. As BND and you know, I am having some trouble piecing it all with H wanting back in the M, but under his terms I guess. I feel differently about him than I did before, mostly not as good. I've said love is a choice, and yet I fear making it.
I sooooo get what BND meant about being the strong one, all the time, every day, forever and ever. 24/7 parenting, house, yard, cars, bills, college applications, oh--wait, I HAVE A JOB/CAREER too.......When do we get a break? Jesus, if anyone had a right to bolt out the door, it wouldn't be the H's..... okay, I have a cold, and feel like crap. Maybe that's it. Patience.
BND, you are probably right about how I should be avoiding the OM, but I gotta tell you, I feel very little guilt so far. Of course, have not done anything major. But I like him, and he is kind to me... and oh, btw, guess what else?? HE IS HERE!!!!... H is NOT!!!! by his choice he lives in .....the one place I asked not to live.....first the fellowship/for his 197th credential, 300 miles, and now 3000 miles away for the world's "best job", which he sought NO WHERE else... Been gone going on 18 months now....what the hell am I supposed to do if this goes on forever?
No matter what I do, I have to hurt someone in my family, thanks to H's unilateral choices....my daughter's will be split up, and I'll have no boundaries enforced, if I go up there with d9... and if I don't go, then what? I guess the M ends, or what's left of it.....and d9 has no dad around....it stinks.
OKAY, I am venting...I understand everything you, BND, have said times ten. I only hope I can be as forgiving as you when I am with my H. He will be here for the holidays, as you know. Maybe when he's here I'll feel better. He rarely brings up R talk, unless it's about me coming up there.
Just curious, I should NOT tell H about OM correct? I mean, until IF and when I think I love OM, what's the point? I'm not sleeping with OM....yet... Why don't I feel a big guilt trip? Why?? Probably anger. Maybe that's what this is all about. I thought I had gotten better about that. But H really hurt our M, me, and our d's... and especially d17. ...This is her father who left us/her just before her junior year of HS and is still gone for her senior year....her grades dropped last year and although they are high again, the GPA suffered enough to keep her out of the IVy Leagues, where her brother is...and where she could have been....maybe I should be glad she's going to save us so much money in tuition. The damage is real, and the effects on others b/c of his choices, OMG, they're huge......Do I even get to mention it to H? What's the point?
Forgiving for what they did to us is one thing; I've got my faults too. But dang, BND how do you deal with your kids' pain? How can I help D17 to reconcile with H and how can I help him to do whatever it is he needs to do to get that with her? HOW did your d start getting better with your H? What did it take? Who did what?
My b-day last week, I got 2 dozen roses from H and a message(s) that included how "much better our future will be, this will be the last birthday of [mine} we'll be apart..." etc......I was happy with that, and grateful. Better than last year for sure.... But then fear comes in and I find myself wondering.... I wonder, HOW will it be better? Then anger pops up AGAIN.....Oh You mean, if I move up there, NEVER feeling that our M and family are as important as his flippin' job? .....dang, way toooo negative right now.
I must get this worked out soon. I cannot go up there with THIS attitude or failure will be a certainty....
If only I believed that H wanted US more than anything else.......BND, I know you get it.... Oh the irony of it all....if H volunteered to give his stupid job up, I'd move there for a trial at least...ANYHOW, another hijack. SORRY guys!! Wth?? Why don't I just post this elsewhere? How do I do that? Copy and paste? (No pc skills here...thought the little people would do that for me when I went to school...big mistake.)
BND, I am still wanting to do the "DB a thon" for your H at Christmas. Let US know where to send the checks!! FOLKS, catch my earlier post about sending bucks into BND's sitch so her H can come home this Christmas....seriously, I am throwing in 100$ and another guy is too, so that's 200$ so, BND, what does it cost? You have helped a lot of people and inspired so many and wth? At least you're a good cause that I actually "know"...DBers, pitch in please!!
And BND, as for your H's comments re: dating, I agree with W2, that your H is being "normal", (for MLC and whatever "normal" means with it). Although you may have feared it meant some sort of "open" R, I didn't get that.... Plus, you are "exploring in the bedroom", and all I can say to that is you Go Girl!!
What were you saying you feared? An "Open" R?? ***Btw, reminds me of a crazy woman I knew who told me her H and she had an "open" M, and she "always" told her H whenever she slept with OM, b/c "IF you don't have honesty in a M, how are you gonna have trust?"*** (I loved that line the moment I heard it....they are divorced...seriously....big surprise...)
Well, keep on keepin' on and tell us what to do with our checks!
j-
((((J)))
First of all thank you for your very kind and sweet gesture to help me get my Husband home for Christmas.
But I also know that most people are totally strapped financially at this time of year and are trying to provide for their own families.
The airfare is expensive right now, more then double the usual costs. I did check online at Orbitz and it is about $900, which is outrageous.
I will continue to pray for a miracle but it is nothing that I am counting on.
The very fact that I have friends here on this board who would even consider this just floors me, thank you!!
As for your sitch.
Oh J, I do know the inner struggle from which you speak.
Trying to forgive the atrocities of our WAS and trying to love them while the thoughts of the damage they have done comes to the forefront of our minds and sometimes negates all of the good they are trying to do.
Allowing yourself to be vulnerable and let down your guard with absolutely no guarantees.
Protecting your children's emotions like a Mother bear because there is nobody else who can be their advocate, because your other half went AWOL and never looked back to see the damage he did.
And now you have found this OM who makes you feel all of the things you NEED to feel not only as a person but also as a woman.
Neither your H or the OM is a sure thing.
And NO do not tell your H about the OM.
I am trying to be realistic in the fact that my life will never be the same as it was before MLC.
I have never stopped loving him but I have stopped trusting him.
Trust will have to be earned over time.
I also think for you it means giving up control and allowing your Husband to resume his place as head of the household. A place that technically he doesn't deserve because this would mean that he had been there and put his family first, no matter what.
Allowing him to be the man and giving up your voice is a huge decision to make and I think it can be done IF there is a full commitment from him.
As for my H and the boyfriend/girlfriend thing, I do understand what he was saying.
We talked a little about it yesterday.
I think a huge part of my problem during the marriage was making the children a priority, not him.
At this stage of the game he wants us to enjoy each other and make our relationship a priority outside of the Mommy/Daddy role.
When we go out I don't dress like MOM, but rather his sexy wife that he can show off. Gee, I've never been a trophy wife before!
Our relationship in the bedroom has changed also, neither of us in as inhibited as before and that has also helped. We are both able to talk about what we want and that makes a big difference.
I can see that he really put up with alot of crap from me, after going through so many pregnancies, and the hormones and the nursing and haveing no outside support from family.
I had a hard time losing the last 30 pounds after the last baby was born and I was also very tired and worn out. I saw some photos of myself recently from that time period and I looked like hell.
He compliments me daily on my appearance, the way I dress now, the makeup, my size 2 body. He told me that I am the first person he thinks of when he wakes up each morning and the last when he goes to bed at night.
These are things I needed to hear for a long time, and so as shallow as I might seem, I like being told that my Husband finds me beautiful and sexy.
I will no longer allow myself to be 2nd best.
I need to be first and have told him this.
J, you do not have to make a decision right now, the fact that you are still wavering means that you are undecided.
See how things go at Christmas and play it by ear.
Hi j,
In reading your situation, I found a few similarities to my own, so let me come at you from the other side a little. My W followed me into the Air Force, and through 4 moves, and finally here to AZ. She willingly moved around and in fact committed to follow me while I was in the military. Once we settled here in AZ was when I first ran into a problem similar to what you describe. When I left one job and took another (same location and pay, just more percieved financial risk in her eyes), she really showed the lengths she would go to to have control. She fought my job switch for 5 years, constantly berating me, withholding affection, etc, after I did it when she disagreed that I should. My new job involved an uptick in travel (I travel probably 15-20% of work days), and about the same hours (I work 45-50 hrs per week, no weekends). I can tell you I thought her attitude was completely out in left field - that my employment should be up to me. She still does not understand this, even today. If I were, for instance, say I was preparing to start a business, guess what - WWIII all over again. Except, this time, I would be gone. I have not ever left for an extended time, although that possibility was always there during my military career, and I did have a couple of 6-week TDYs in there. In her eyes, when I switched jobs, I chose 'career' over her. I still today just cannot see that.
My wife has always had a confrontational attitude about things like work hours, trying to insist that I do what she says about them, refusing to even discuss it when I say, for instance, that I might need to work late or on a weekend day. She completely fears losing control, and therefore she believes she should never give even an inch about anything. Everything is a slippery slope to her, with some unacceptable result at the end, so she fights every battle like hamburger hill or something. This is not just work, it is everything, finances, raising kids, you name it.
I don't see my W's attitude in you over your H's move. I see you taking steps to keep your D in high school, with friends, which is good. I went to 3 high schools and I can see the wisdom of your approach.
Let me address the OP. Like you, I have met someone who has made me really think about the future. I have met someone who has shown me, in a short time, what I am missing in an R. Someone who offers affirmation, support, a smile, interesting conversation, who actually needs me, at least as a friend, and lets me know it. My goodness what an eye opener it has been. For it has shown me I am too young to live the rest of my life in a miserable relationship. It has shown me that people in relationships should make efforts to show they care about each other. That people should not be afraid to affirm each other, to tell each other they are OK, desirable, loved, cherished.
J, I see in you a desire to want to have your H be the one to meet your needs, so long unmet. I see you wanting to give him another chance. But I see you feeling like you will have to surrender too much to do so. I see that your H maybe misses you all, but has not really shown you that he has changed. And here is where you and I meet, because, in my sitch, I am in exactly this place. I see little evidence that my W is willing to change and to address the severe deficiencies in meeting my needs, to address the communication difficulties, the control, the constant hurtful comments, etc. So, like you, I have this moral question before me. And the really soul searching questions like "how will I look back on this in 20 years?" are there. For me, at least, the kids are older, so I don't have to soul search as much over that part. I guess, my friend, that is the definition of a crossroads. How do I answer the question "does my wife really care enough to change?" And that is your question as well. Thank you for all of your advice over on our controlling spouse thread.
Mark
Link to 25yrsmlc new thread:
Piecing together, or not