Hi all:
Well, this week I started on the journey every married person hopes they never have to take.
The basics: I am 58, wife 47, married 23 years next month. We have two sons, 17 and 13. No affairs, substance abuse, or domestic violence have ever occurred.
The story: In the last six weeks to two months or so, I noticed changes in my wife. I noticed less ease and comfort around me. We had a discussion, and she mentioned a couple of things that happened in February that bothered her.
One was her birthday. We went out to dinner, and she said she felt the evening was awkward and that our conversation was superficial. She feels that communication has been on a downslide for a while. Another was Valentine’s Day. We got over the Valentine’s Day “gestures” years ago. My wife doesn’t require cards, flowers, or gifts and I don’t either. But this year, I did the unthinkable: I forgot it was Valentine’s Day and didn’t wish her happiness on the day. I told her it was an honest mistake and nothing hurtful was meant by it. She has brought both things up again since.
She says that these are examples of a long-term pattern of deteriorating communication in our relationship (“more roommates than married,”), and our lack of going out on dates has gotten to her. (“We don’t do anything anymore.”) She also grieves that I don’t spend enough time with the boys.
I will admit guilt in this. I had fallen into a pattern of worrying about work, then worrying about what our boys might need when I get home (I often get home from work earlier than my wife), then eating dinner and then seeing what else I might have to do. And yes, she has been slighted as a result. She and her brother also started a business two years ago that takes her time in the evenings a couple of days a week.
Another factor in the landscape is the surgery she has looming next month. She’s a bariatric patient and lost about 125 pounds. Now she is going in for cosmetic surgery to remove the excess skin on her abdomen and repair weakened abdominal muscles. I praised her when she told me how much weight she’d lost, but she says I don’t compliment her on this, and she feels hurt. Asks me if I still find her attractive. I honestly told her yes, but I am not sure she believes that I am sincere.
Sex: last time was either late January or early February, which she disputes. Trust me, I have a VERY good memory when it comes to this LOL. She seems to think it was six months? A year? I don’t know.
Flash forward to Mother’s Day weekend, and the day before she calls me upstairs for another conversation during which she brings up the previously described issues and again calls out the birthday/Valentine’s Day unpleasantries. I ask her after listening to her, “Where do we go from here?” Her response: “I don’t know.” I have heard “I don’t know” or “I don’t know what I want” at least twice.
Then bombshell #1 hits. Her brother hosts a Mother’s Day brunch every year. She tells me that she wants to take the boys and she wants me to stay home. (“I hope you’ll understand I need this time with them.”) This is the first time in 23 years that she expressly uninvited me to a family gathering. I was very hurt but respected her wishes. She told her family I wasn’t feeling well.
I bought her a Mother's Day card earlier in the week (not because we were at odds; just thought it would be nice). I was going to write a little poem in it; I did that last year and she loved it. Instead, I wrote a letter where I poured out my heart to her. I thought it would break the dam, so to speak, Oblivious to what was coming my way, she read it and said she appreciated it, but it was obvious that it didn’t move her as I had hoped.
I followed up with another conversation a day or two later. When I described us as “troubled,” she responded that we were more than troubled and that she didn’t think our relationship could be repaired. In an apparent reference to the Mother’s Day letter, she said I was a master of the written word, but she feels I use that as a substitute for talking to her.
I pointed out the irony that if communication was a major issue, and the problems were long-term, why did she not bring this up six months, or a year, or however long ago this started so that we could have had a discussion before things got to this point. She admitted I had a point but said “you missed the signs.”
I have the Divorce Remedy book. I read the opening chapter online, and it is as if the author read my mind regarding how I feel about this situation. I am well into it and am implementing some of the techniques, most notably Last Resort. I don’t see this situation as irreparable at all, but my wife does, and I think divorce is the least desirable option. And I think trying to fix it deserves a shot.
Behavior wise, based on what I have read so far, I have been handling it as well as could be expected. I had one breakdown. Other than that, needy behavior, bringing up issues, and raising my temper are not happening. We are civil to each other, still sleeping in the same bed (but only sleeping). Holding my tongue is hard sometimes, and it is painful not to be able to hug or even touch her. Her love is only for the boys now. They deserve it, but it does not make the hurt less.
Hello Sunflyer
Welcome to the boards. I am sorry your situation has lead you onto the journey no married person wishes to undertake.
I am glad you have a copy of Divorce Remedy. Lots of good advice in there. Do keep that book and what you learn to yourself. Do not share with W. Any attempt to do so will come across as manipulation to her, which will not be beneficial.
This forum has many kind compassionate folks with much hard-earned wisdom. Divorce Busting is quite counterintuitive at first, like the Last Resort Technique you spoke of. It will feel wrong to give space and time, focus on self, get and live a life; yet it is the best path of moving forward. Realize moving forward is different than moving on.
I am pasting a copy of Cadet’s welcoming thread for your reference. Do read the links, there is a trove of useful information.
I look forward to speaking with you.
DnJ
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Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/sb_the_divorce_remedy.htmA few other books by MWD:
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm And Michele's articles.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmOnce your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi. I'm certainly not an expert, and going through a D as we speak. But yours is a tale as old as time. Out of apparent nowhere, the poor neglected wife finds the courage to say 'enough!', and wants a D. 90% of the time, she's having an affair.
All I can tell you is this. Take care of yourself. Don't push her whatsoever. Focus all of your time and energy on your kids and yourself. God only knows what's going through her head. You'll literally drive yourself insane trying to figure it out.
Read the book. It certainly helped me bust the first time my W wanted a D. It's your best chance
I am 58, wife 47, married 23 years next month.
Welcome to a great place for support. I am 57. I arrived here in 2008. Divorced in 2009 ended my 18 years with my X. Single for a bit. Been living with my lady for 12+ years. 50/50 custody of my 3 kids. Empty nester now.
We have two sons, 17 and 13. She also grieves that I don’t spend enough time with the boys.
I will admit guilt in this.
First 180 is to focus on being Dad. Give W space. 17yo may want space from you as well. Friends are more important at this age for most. 13yo might be willing for dad time.
No affairs have occurred.
Most of us arrive here with that belief. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Even if she has been faithful up to this point, odds are she is ready.
I noticed less ease and comfort around me.
Red flag #1
From this point forward, it is critical that you change the way you have discussions. You are now in STFU mode and listen intently when she speaks. Memorize every word. Read the validation thread. Most get validation wrong. It is observing the Emotional response she has to whatever her sitch is....your behavior...people atwork...The kids....traffic..whatever.
she felt the evening was awkward and that our conversation was superficial.
YUP...us men suck at having deep conversations with women. This is where the STFU and validate her emotional state comes in.
She has brought both things up again since.
Some canned responses if she brings things up again:
"I wish I could change the past"
"I bet you were (Sad,disapointed,frustrated,angery....) Is that how you felt? (You better be really paying attention to how she is responding emotionally when she is telling you "HER STORY".
Also don't be a broken record. During this process of personal growth, come up with your own list.
Do not be boring:
and our lack of going out on dates has gotten to her. (“We don’t do anything anymore.”)
Right now, DO NOT TRY AND DATE HER. You need to do exciting things without her.
She and her brother also started a business two years ago that takes her time in the evenings a couple of days a week.
Red Flag. Possibilities that she gets attention from other men. Not bad when the relationship is in good shape, but we are in triage right now.
Asks me if I still find her attractive. I honestly told her yes, but I am not sure she believes that I am sincere.
Your words are not in alignment with your behavior. From now on, when she is speaking, you study her face and pay attention to everything you find attractive about her. Mentally think about sexual things. Only three things on your mind. How you find her attractive, memorizing her story, and the most important is "getting her" by understanding how she FELT EMOTIONALLY.
Sex: last time was either late January
Put your needs on hold. Focus on your attraction and your seduction. There is a big difference between these two. Understand the difference. Do some reading (or other means of research) and learn some "new moves" for bedroom time. Do not be boring.
Trust me, I have a VERY good memory when it comes to this LOL. She seems to think it was six months? A year? I don’t know.
I assume you would like it to be more frequent. I know she does. Learning to turn a woman on is a good skill to have. Your listening skills I mentioned above is a big part of it. The problem you have is her resentment. Another is your past behavior. Most guys do not know how to talk to a woman so that she gets turned on. Again a place for some research.
I ask her after listening to her, “Where do we go from here?” Her response: “I don’t know.” I have heard “I don’t know” or “I don’t know what I want” at least twice.
So now is the time to reinvent yourself. Do not discuss your changes with her. Just live them.
she wants me to stay home... This is the first time in 23 years that she expressly uninvited me to a family gathering.
Big red flag. I relate...I was not invited to my X's sisters wedding.
Instead, I wrote a letter where I poured out my heart to her. I thought it would break the dam, so to speak, Oblivious to what was coming my way, she read it and said she appreciated it, but it was obvious that it didn’t move her as I had hoped.
Again, we all have been there in one for or the other. No more mushy things. There may be a time way way in the future, but not anytime soon. Strong, calm and confident are your friends now.
I followed up with another conversation a day or two later.
The rules have now changed. No more R talks. This is now poker. Do not reveal your cards. You only have the three reasons above and parenting for discussions with her.
More canned statements to have until you get your own list:
"I am not sure"
"I have not thought about that"
"I will let you know when I have decided"
"I need more time to think about that"
"Yes"
"No"
Use the least amount of words needed to get your point across.
You will not talk your way out of this. Changes in your behavior have the best chance of turning this around.
When I described us as “troubled,” she responded that we were more than troubled and that she didn’t think our relationship could be repaired.
See what I mean. Do not try to talk logically. Do not argue.
In an apparent reference to the Mother’s Day letter, she said I was a master of the written word, but she feels I use that as a substitute for talking to her.
Whatever you said in that letter is better to say after she is turned on. Learn the art of dirty talk as well. Might be awhile before you can use it, but get it in your new set of tools.
why did she not bring this up six months, or a year, or however long ago this started so that we could have had a discussion before things got to this point. She admitted I had a point but said “you missed the signs.”
I was going to say the same thing. She did, but you didn't "hear" her. Going to be much harder now, but again, do everything you can during this critical phase. You will make mistakes, but with our help, hopefully you will make less of them.
I have the Divorce Remedy book....most notably Last Resort..
Most posters get this wrong as well....The last resort is to be done after you have tried all the other techniques.
Other than that, needy behavior, bringing up issues, and raising my temper are not happening.
Perfect. Keep this up.
but it does not make the hurt less.
It is very important for you to find a safe place to release your emotions. Do not let her see them. The best thing you can project is a calm, content, but not quite happy, guy when you are in her presence. Go to the gym and pump your anger out. Go to an empty parking lot and cry out the sadness. Go for long walks alone. I crank the stereo while drive and express every emotion that comes out of the singer. Rage against the machine to sappy 70's love songs....
Express all those repressed emotions in safe places so they do not come out at the wrong time.
IC is another great place to help with repressed emotions.
Read as many of these as you can. So much wisdom from past posters:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2943653#Post2943653I wish you well....and don't be boring. She wants excitement in her life and you should be the one to give it to her.
Thank you DnJ.
I have started to check out those links. Looks like a lot of good information in there.
Hi Ready2Change and thank you for the input!
A few quick follow ups.
First 180 is to focus on being Dad. Give W space. 17yo may want space from you as well. Friends are more important at this age for most. 13yo might be willing for dad time.
Yup. The 17 year old's world is his friends right now. I didn't mention that he is going away to college in the fall, and I know that is weighing on my wife's mind. How much it impacts her feelings about our relationship I don't know.
Most of us arrive here with that belief. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Even if she has been faithful up to this point, odds are she is ready.
She is one of those people who has said (multiple times), "If you ever cheat on me, I will kill you." Considering how long she has known me, I figure she should know that cheating is not in my vocabulary. I will admit it has started to cross my mind that perhaps she who proclaims the loudest is trying to compensate for something.
Put your needs on hold. Focus on your attraction and your seduction. There is a big difference between these two. Understand the difference. Do some reading (or other means of research) and learn some "new moves" for bedroom time. Do not be boring.
I did try a "new move" that she told me in advance that she liked. She enjoyed it a lot but seemed to lose interest pretty quickly. I will take your advice, while hoping that there is actually "bedroom time" again at some future point.
The rules have now changed. No more R talks. This is now poker. Do not reveal your cards. You only have the three reasons above and parenting for discussions with her.
There hasn't been anything on the topic for over a week at this point, from either me or her. Conversations on the other topics seem to be returning to normal.
Learn the art of dirty talk as well. Might be awhile before you can use it, but get it in your new set of tools.
This is in both of our toolboxes already.
I will, and I'm moving forward doing activities that I like to make MYSELF happy, although at this stage it still feels a bit "artificial." After all, she complained that I wasn't paying her enough attention. Now I have to back off and give her room. But I know that clinging and smothering are the worst things I could do right now.
Good Morning SF
Congratulations to son. How far away is the college? Can he still live at home, or is he wanting to or needing to move out?
When my first son moved out to attend university, it stirred up such a storm of feelings within XW (W back then). She completely went off the rails and left the kids before they could leave her. I know, it really makes no sense. And five years later, she is still out there. Lost.
She is one of those people who has said (multiple times), "If you ever cheat on me, I will kill you." Considering how long she has known me, I figure she should know that cheating is not in my vocabulary. I will admit it has started to cross my mind that perhaps she who proclaims the loudest is trying to compensate for something.
My W detested cheaters and affairs. She ended up having an affair herself. The self loathing and hatred such a person feels. All the blaming of others, projecting, justifying, crafting of narratives are short term futile efforts to ward off the pain of their deeds and their past.
The best you can currently do, is to give W time and space, and keep pressure to a minimum. Any pushing and/or demanding of answers regarding affairs, her feelings, how the relationship is, etc, needs to be strictly off limits. Anything she says you would not be able to take as gospel anyhow.
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
Her path will be long and convoluted, with many twists and turns. You need to let her walk it. In time, consistent demonstrated behaviours will illustrate more of where she is at than her ever changing emotionally driven words. Realize, her present trajectory is emotionally driven. And feelings change fast and often. Keeping close watch will confuse you and hurt your neck
as she ping-pongs about.
Give the Lighthouse Story a read. It’s one of the links in the welcoming post. Become a stanchion, an anchor, a strength, a beacon, in life’s storms.
I'm moving forward doing activities that I like to make MYSELF happy, although at this stage it still feels a bit "artificial." After all, she complained that I wasn't paying her enough attention. Now I have to back off and give her room. But I know that clinging and smothering are the worst things I could do right now.
Yes, it will feel artificial for a while. The act-as-if part of this. Focus upon you and the boys. At 17 and 13 they will know something is amiss. Be Dad. Not Disneyland Dad, just a good solid Dad. Their rock!
I pointed out the irony that if communication was a major issue, and the problems were long-term, why did she not bring this up six months, or a year, or however long ago this started so that we could have had a discussion before things got to this point. She admitted I had a point but said “you missed the signs.”
This is an excellent example of how logic and reason will not sway one who is driven by their emotions. You are correct, rational, and yet… no. You are still wrong in her view.
Funny thing in long term relationships, folks get so comfortable, finish each other’s sentences and such, that when stuff comes up they figure the other should know it. All without speaking a word. How? You can’t read minds!
Only own your part in all this. If, and you likely were to some degree, if you were inattentive make changes. For you.
However, W is a grown women and she should have spoke up about things that were bothering her. A common defence mechanism is projection. One blames, projects, “their” fault upon their spouse or others. Interestingly, folks do this because they cannot handle nor accept their part of it. Not yet anyhow; W will need to find her way. Any pressure or rational argument to sway her will likely set her back and be further justification and reasons of why to leave you. STFU is so very necessary.
You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.
There are no magic words that will wake her up. Let time and space work upon her. While you live and move forward. Be kind and cordial. Even supportive where appropriate. All sans smothering and clinging.
D
Good Morning SF
Congratulations to son. How far away is the college? Can he still live at home, or is he wanting to or needing to move out?
When my first son moved out to attend university, it stirred up such a storm of feelings within XW (W back then). She completely went off the rails and left the kids before they could leave her. I know, it really makes no sense. And five years later, she is still out there. Lost.
Hello DnJ.
Our son will be living on campus. The college is about 4 1/2 hours drive away. Not unreasonable. A number of his friends from high school will be attending there as well, so hopefully he should assimilate easily.
I won't say that I can comprehend what your XW leaving the way she did must have done to the kids, or to you. So I will just say that I'm sorry that happened.
The best you can currently do, is to give W time and space, and keep pressure to a minimum. Any pushing and/or demanding of answers regarding affairs, her feelings, how the relationship is, etc, needs to be strictly off limits. Anything she says you would not be able to take as gospel anyhow.
Give the Lighthouse Story a read. It’s one of the links in the welcoming post. Become a stanchion, an anchor, a strength, a beacon, in life’s storms.
This is exactly what I am doing. Incidentally, the Lighthouse Story was one of the first things I clicked on among those links. It makes perfect sense and that is how I am going to model myself going forward.
However, W is a grown women and she should have spoke up about things that were bothering her. A common defence mechanism is projection. One blames, projects, “their” fault upon their spouse or others. Interestingly, folks do this because they cannot handle nor accept their part of it. Not yet anyhow; W will need to find her way. Any pressure or rational argument to sway her will likely set her back and be further justification and reasons of why to leave you. STFU is so very necessary.
You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.
There are no magic words that will wake her up. Let time and space work upon her. While you live and move forward. Be kind and cordial. Even supportive where appropriate. All sans smothering and clinging.
This is what sticks out like a sore thumb in this whole situation. I know there are people who suffer in silence for a long time, so I am not saying it is uncommon. However, it is uncommon for
her. This is not a woman who typically keeps quiet when something is wrong. She lets one know in no uncertain terms. She is also not one who just rolls over and waves the white flag when the going gets rough. It is definitely out of character.
I am trying to be kinder. Not overly kind but kinder. And I will support when needed.
I thank you for the words to live by and hope that we will talk again at some point.
This is possibly a silly question, but I welcome opinions from anyone.
W is not wearing her wedding ring. I continued to wear mine for a few days after she expressed her anger and dissatisfaction.
Then I started thinking: could my wearing it be taken as some kind of nonverbal, passive aggressive signal? She thinks our relationship is broken; I think it is fixable. Wearing my ring would remind her of that difference.
The last couple of days, I have put the ring in my pocket and put it on after leaving for work. I wear it when she is not around. It comforts me and is a symbol that I am not ready to give up on us.
I have put the ring in my pocket and put it on after leaving for work. I wear it when she is not around.
I believe this is perfectly ok for the short term.
In the big picture, you are worried about how SHE will respond to you wearing the ring. This is one of the biggest hurdles new posters have. They are focused on how their spouse is behaving and/or responding etc.
Now is the time to question everything you believe. Digging deep is important.
Compartmentalize everything.
Women test their men. It is an ongoing process, and it may be subconscious to her. Your goal is to pass the tests. Most of us arrive here failing all the tests.
Think about this statement:
"How can he protect me when he will not even stand up to me?"
Jordan Peterson talks about "Slaying the dragon". Another good talk is about "Beauty and the Beast". Take some time and listen to JP.
Back to the ring. You have your current beliefs on why/when you should /shouldn't wear it. Now is the time to question all of the beliefs you have around it.
From this point on, it is none of her business on why/why not you are wearing it. SHE HAS FIRED YOU as her husband. You make your decision and keep the reasons private.
Wear it if you want to project that you are standing for the marriage. Take it off the day the paperwork is signed.
Do not wear it. Show her that you are supporting her decision even though you disagree with it.
Wear it so that other woman know you are not on the market. "The LAST thing I need in my life right now is ANOTHER woman. Things are complicated enough already."
It is critical that you get ahead of her in this process. Everything she will do is scripted out. How you behave during this process MAY effect her.
She has lost her attraction for you. Changing your behavior is the only way to attract her back. Most get this wrong and do it to slowly.
How soon are you ready to support your wife and ask "How soon can you move out?"
These are two of my mantras:
"I don't want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me."
"I do not share my woman with other men."
Makes it pretty easy to make decisions have a good set of mantras. Start working on yours.
Stockdale paradox:
“You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” — Admiral James Stockdale.
Face the brutal fact that you are going to be divorced. Have faith that your changes will give you the best chance at saving the marriage. She may like what she sees and have a change of heart.
This is possibly a silly question, but I welcome opinions from anyone.
W is not wearing her wedding ring. I continued to wear mine for a few days after she expressed her anger and dissatisfaction.
Then I started thinking: could my wearing it be taken as some kind of nonverbal, passive aggressive signal? She thinks our relationship is broken; I think it is fixable. Wearing my ring would remind her of that difference.
The last couple of days, I have put the ring in my pocket and put it on after leaving for work. I wear it when she is not around. It comforts me and is a symbol that I am not ready to give up on us.
When my W BD'd me 5 years ago she stopped wearing her ring. I continued to wear mine. Not sure why, except I was still legally married. I also wanted to maintain my desire to save the M. When W agreed working on the M and going to MC, one of my stipulations was for her to put her ring back on. She did.
Weird thing now, when she pulled this 6 weeks ago, she still wears her ring everywhere, even though she filed on Monday. I, on the other hand, haven't worn mine for the last 3 weeks, when she initially told me she consulted with a L. She hasn't said anything about it, and I don't really care what she thinks about it. Like someone else said, she fired me as her H, and after she officially filed I feel like she isn't deserving of me wearing a ring that symbolizes my commitment to her.
My opinion is and always has been that as long as you're married you wear your ring.
I haven't had time to give you a proper response to your OP, but SF remember focus off of her. Completely. That includes giving a crap what she thinks about you wearing your wedding ring. You are overthinking it which is a very common thing for a LBS to do.
after she officially filed I feel like she isn't deserving of me wearing a ring that symbolizes my commitment to her.
I hear what you're saying. If things get to that point here, I might think differently about the ring.
Just a brief comment. The next family event is on Sunday for Memorial Day. W's brother is hosting once again.
She's good with my being there. (I didn't ask her how she felt about my attending, so no prompting from me).
Just a brief comment. The next family event is on Sunday for Memorial Day. W's brother is hosting once again.
This is one of the first questions my DB coach asked me:
Is it better for you to go and she resents you being there? OR Is it better for you not to go and have her miss you?
Is there something that you could do that you would enjoy more? (Yes, this is part of your new decision making process.) Or be better for your personal growth. (Read the art of seduction).
You might want to get your own list of decision making questions clarified to help in your DBing efforts.
What works is counter-intuitive. (Burn this statement into your brain).
Most likely you will want to justify going:
She's good with my being there. (I didn't ask her how she felt about my attending, so no prompting from me).
Whatever choice you make, your W will use it against you.
Is it better for you to go and she resents you being there? OR Is it better for you not to go and have her miss you?
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. She didn't come to me and say, "It's okay if you attend this weekend" or "I'd prefer you weren't there this weekend."
It was always presumed we'd be attending as a family, before any of this started, and nothing has occurred to change that.
She is completely inscrutable at this point. Yesterday she seemed in a good mood, asked me how I was when she texted me. When I replied hoping she was having a good day, she came back enthusiastically. Today she seems down again.
She might resent me if I go; she might miss me if I don't. She might secretly wish she could have an open talk that clears the air and begins the healing, or she might be thinking that I'm a parasite in her hair.
Thus, I'm inclined that whatever I end up doing should be what makes me happy, without worrying about what she is thinking.
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough.
You did. I understood.
She didn't come to me and say, "It's okay if you attend this weekend" or "I'd prefer you weren't there this weekend."
Until invited, I would assume she does not want you there based on this statement:
she responded that we were more than troubled and that she didn’t think our relationship could be repaired.
So it is important to give her space.
One idea around here is to accept some, but not all initiations by her to do something together. Part of this is doing things apart from each other. Not sure if you did things together much as a couple.
She is completely inscrutable at this point. Yesterday she seemed in a good mood, asked me how I was when she texted me. When I replied hoping she was having a good day, she came back enthusiastically. Today she seems down again.
It is good to be in tune with how she is feeling emotionally. Learning to not let her emotional state effect yours is part of learning process. We are all at different levels on this ability.
Just know this is brainstorming. You have to figure out what your 180's are. Most that show up here lack (or at least lost) similar skills. The way I behave around my current lady is vastly different than the way I was around my X.
Make your choice and enjoy the day...do not let W behaviors effect your emotional state.
One idea around here is to accept some, but not all initiations by her to do something together. Part of this is doing things apart from each other. Not sure if you did things together much as a couple.
We do have our own unique interests, and have never objected to the other pursuing them individually. I try to pursue mine when she is at work or otherwise occupied. (Our work schedules don't always overlap, so I can find time to do this).
Family gatherings have always been as a couple, unless one was legitimately ill or had some other pressing circumstance that intervened.
Her complaint is that when we are not pursuing our individual interests, I am not doing enough things with her. Not enough walks in the park, date nights, whatever. We used to do those things more.
That complaint is legitimate. I won't excuse my part of it, but I think both of us have had issues making time for each other.
I fell into the work/kids trap, where my main focus was on what I needed to do for work and what I needed to do to keep the kids happy, if she could not or if she wasn't home.
She works in public accounting and has multiple deadlines each year requiring significant overtime. It got to the point that she was so burnt out last year, as her firm piled more work on her rather than hire more help, that the job was taking a toll on her mental health. She actually had a new job offer in hand and resigned. But they lured her back with a massive raise and concessions, including a new hire.
On top of this, in 2021, she and her brother started the aforementioned business, which they work on together a couple of nights a week. That business has somewhat changed focus, but she still has commitments with him two or three nights a week, typically.
I busied myself with hobbies if I felt she was tired from work.
She came home tired a lot. If I was interested in sex, I didn't ask because I felt guilty. It became less frequent, but was still good when we had it.
Throw this stuff in the pot along with the fact that she feels I don't compliment her enough or thinks I no longer find her attractive, and here we are.
I wouldn't mind having a few initiations to do things from her, so I could turn some down if I choose, but I have a feeling none are coming anytime soon.
And I am not in a position to ask, since that would put pressure on her. I can't ask for "dates" at this point, even if I would like to.
I'd suggest that you attend tomorrow's event (if she has not uninvited you already). Make it a test of your detachment and inner strength. You have nothing to lose. Have a good time. She might notice and make some conclusions, but that should not matter to you. Otoh, do not go if she has been using the hosting brother as a close confidant and if he has been supporting her WAW disposition.
I can't compliment my woman enough either. I am not sure any guy can. We can only do our best.
We can always do more compliments while the relationship is in good shape. The issue for you is you are in triage. She might feel like you are doing it to manipulate her into staying.
She knows you better than anyone else on the planet. This is a big hurdle.
Making permanent changes to your behavior is all that you can do. She might like them, she might not. The bigger issue is do you like them? That is your measuring stick now. Only you can figure out what changes you need. Then you can watch your behavior and see if you are behaving the way you want.
I share what worked for me. Others here share what worked for them. I used the "learn dirty talk" as an example. You said you are already skilled at that. There are 1000's of changes you can make. What is attractive and seductive to woman in general? Her specifically? These are questions for you to ask yourself.
Same thing for the "dating". What would be fun and exciting? Make plans to go do them.
This is how I typically ask my lady out:
"I am going to (name the activity). Would you like to join me?"
You can test this out with your lady. Monitor her response. You should easily be able to tell if she is receptive.
During this phase, it is imperative that you avoid R talk at all costs. You just be. Be in the moment.
Take a look at how much non-sexual touch happens. You can "test" this.
"A Touch Charge is a loving physical gesture with your spouse. It's not foreplay or an advance for love making; it's just a warm touch for the sake of connecting in that moment."
Most around here do not advocate snooping to see if OM is an issue. IF OM is in the picture, it makes things a whole lot more complicated and the tactics are way different than if W is just done with the way the marriage is.
I'd suggest that you attend tomorrow's event (if she has not uninvited you already). Make it a test of your detachment and inner strength. You have nothing to lose. Have a good time. She might notice and make some conclusions, but that should not matter to you. Otoh, do not go if she has been using the hosting brother as a close confidant and if he has been supporting her WAW disposition.
To my knowledge, she has not. I briefly thought about talking to him myself but quickly squashed that idea. Don't want to bring family members into it at this stage that may not be involved.
The only person that I know for a fact has some involvement is her mother. Around the time the you-know-what hit the fan, she said she went to talk to her mother because she wanted help dealing with the fact that she was "not in a good place" right now. She says that she kept the conversation to generalities rather than specifics of the situation.
I can't compliment my woman enough either. I am not sure any guy can. We can only do our best.
We can always do more compliments while the relationship is in good shape. The issue for you is you are in triage. She might feel like you are doing it to manipulate her into staying.
Exactly. That is why I have shut that down. If she asks me how she looks, I will tell her honestly, but I am not going to start dropping honorifics into my speech just because.
Making permanent changes to your behavior is all that you can do. She might like them, she might not. The bigger issue is do you like them? That is your measuring stick now. Only you can figure out what changes you need. Then you can watch your behavior and see if you are behaving the way you want.
Started making a few little tweaks. So far, they feel good to me.
Same thing for the "dating". What would be fun and exciting? Make plans to go do them.
This is how I typically ask my lady out:
"I am going to (name the activity). Would you like to join me?"
You can test this out with your lady. Monitor her response. You should easily be able to tell if she is receptive.
I think it's still to early for this. Might come off as manipulative at this stage. But I will continuously feel the waters and make suggestions when appropriate.
During this phase, it is imperative that you avoid R talk at all costs. You just be. Be in the moment.
It's completely off the table, and I won't touch it at all right now.
It's completely off the table, and I won't touch it at all right now.
You sure about that? Can you tell me what R talks are to you?
It's completely off the table, and I won't touch it at all right now.
You sure about that? Can you tell me what R talks are to you?
Any discussion that mentions the following:
1. our past dating history or the status of our marriage in the past
2. the present or future status of our marriage
3. our sex life
4. anything that might be construed as an attempt to arrange a "date" or time to be spent alone as a couple
So the latest update in my situation is that things are apparently going to be moving very quickly.
W was out on a walk today and I took a look in her planner. She's drawn up all her legal questions and proposal for dividing assets.
Looks like she is targeting August 1 as the date when she wants me out.
Looks like she is targeting August 1 as the date when she wants me out.
Reverse the script. She wants the divorce. She moves out.
Hello SF
I agree with R2C. Flip her script.
Do not move out. Do not abandon the homestead. In some locales moving out has serious legal consequences. Have you spoken to lawyer yet? Ensure you know your rights and the best, worst, and likely outcomes in a separation. And do not tell W about what you learn. She is currently not on team Sunflyer.
Also, do not move out of the master bedroom. W wants out, let her move to the spare room, or the basement, or the Harry Potter room under the stairs.
Give her lots of time and space. Focus on you and the boys. Definitely, no R talks. (Nice definition by the way.) And let her do what she will.
D
Hello SF
I agree with R2C. Flip her script.
Do not move out. Do not abandon the homestead. In some locales moving out has serious legal consequences. Have you spoken to lawyer yet? Ensure you know your rights and the best, worst, and likely outcomes in a separation. And do not tell W about what you learn. She is currently not on team Sunflyer.
D
The possible legal implications of moving out were an immediate concern. I am awaiting callback from a lawyer and have started researching this.
My sister lives nearby, and I do see her frequently, but I have not spoken about any of this to her yet. My wife has asked me twice if I have told her anything about the situation. The second time was today. I told her no both times. On two recent occasions when W saw my sister, she thought she saw her making odd expressions and interpreted that as my sister's knowing more than I let on. During the unpleasant events of Mother's Day weekend, she became quite strident about this to the point that I had to swear on the boys that I have told her nothing.
Today she was calmer, and the brief reference to my sister is the first mention she's made of our situation in two weeks.
My current impression is that despite my earlier protestations, W thinks I am quite okay with what's going down and am simply to acquiesce to everything like a puppy.
My wife has asked me twice if I have told her anything about the situation. The second time was today. I told her no both times.
From now on, find a good way of saying: "That is non of your business" if she ask you anything about your personal life. IE where you are going, what you are doing, what you are talking about with other people.
The rules of interacting with her are way different now.
W thinks I am quite okay with what's going down and am simply to acquiesce to everything like a puppy.
Project that you are going to thrive without her. Her lose.
You are now an emotional rock. Hold steady no matter how rough the storm.
Also, do not move out of the master bedroom.
This is extremely important. Even better is to start making it more manly. Do not discuss your changes. Put a big poster of a motorcycle, or airplane or boat. Sleep in the middle of the bed if you have the balls.
Again, I am strongly suggesting these as 180's. Hopefully they are for you.
No supplicating. No simping. Focus on good strong male traits.
Go read as much of Gekko's thread as possible. He is about the only male poster that arrived here with good strong male traits. The rest of us had to learn.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=40586
Hello SF
My current impression is that despite my earlier protestations, W thinks I am quite okay with what's going down and am simply to acquiesce to everything like a puppy.
Yes, they do like to believe that everything will just go soooooo smoothly. It’s a common fantasy. Like as if tearing apart a family is no big deal.
You’ve already told her you don’t want a divorce. Objected to her feelings that the marriage is unsalvageable/irreparable. No need to tell her again. Just remain calm and let her push her divorce along. Let her own it. You don’t stand in her way, yet you don’t help her out either.
You become the best version of yourself - Sunflyer 2.0! And do it for you. That way it is permanent.
Maybe W notices and takes pause. It will likely take quite some time for W to burn through her emotions. Realize she started this path long before bomb drop. She’s got quite a head start and a head of steam. It’s going to take time for this train wreck to slowdown.
On two recent occasions when W saw my sister, she thought she saw her making odd expressions and interpreted that as my sister's knowing more than I let on. During the unpleasant events of Mother's Day weekend, she became quite strident about this to the point that I had to swear on the boys that I have told her nothing.
As much as they want out, they don’t want to be the bad guy either. They will project and justify and blame and gaslight; all so they don’t feel guilt, shame, regret, and such. They will expend tremendous energies in maintaining their narrative. They have to!
Eventually, one’s spouse will calm and look around. They will realize that, “Hey, Sunflyer hasn’t been bothering me lately,
and I’m still unhappy.” With some good fortune, the spouse might then realize that perhaps their LBS is NOT the cause of their unhappiness after all. And with even more good fortune the spouse looks inward and starts to do the real work.
Of course, affairs really cloud and confuse the situation. There is no martial problem that is going to become better by adding another person. OP1, OP2,… are all symptoms. Band-aids. A desperate attempt at feeling better. Such an illicit relationship is built upon lies and deceit. It’s like building on sand, it requires tremendous effort to keep things held together and stable. (By the way, I do realize your situation currently has no confirmed or suspected affair. Just sharing a bit of information. And for those reading your story too.)
It’s interesting how W demands you swear on your son’s life that you are telling the truth. Meanwhile, she is betraying the vows she took. Again, a rather common trait among the WAS/WS.
People see the world as they see themselves. A trustworthy person extends trust rather freely (At first anyhow. Once burnt, trust takes a long time to rebuild). Their default is to see the good in people. A liar/cheater sees liars and cheaters everywhere. Their default is quite different.
I’d also suspect W is muddying the waters to cover her tracks. Who has she told? And what story has she told? She who protests too much…
It really matters not. You keep moving forward. Walk the high road in all this. And be the rock for your kids. Always!
D
It’s interesting how W demands you swear on your son’s life that you are telling the truth. Meanwhile, she is betraying the vows she took. Again, a rather common trait among the WAS/WS.
This is, perhaps, one of the most difficult things for me to understand.
W grew up in a close-knit family. I did not. All of her relatives preach the importance of family. Another one of her favorite quotes, uttered multiple times during our marriage, was "I take my marriage vows seriously."
It is easy to say that, of course, before the test comes. I guess I did not figure her to be someone who, when the going got rough, would just keep quiet and then grab the parachute.
I haven't had much to do with organized religion since I was 19, and W hasn't either. But W always had dreams of a church wedding, and her family wanted it. I remember us interviewing with the priest. He spoke with each of us alone, presumably to ask the same questions.
I remember him asking, "In this church, the only way a marriage ends is by death of one of the partners. Is that the kind of marriage you seek?"
I responded with absolute confidence, "It is."
Twenty-five years after that interview, that is still my answer.
I’d also suspect W is muddying the waters to cover her tracks. Who has she told? And what story has she told? She who protests too much…
D
At this point, who knows? She has a lifelong friend that she saw the other night. They went out to buy a recliner to put in the living room for her upcoming surgery recovery. Did her friend really need to go with her to buy a recliner? She'd be my first guess as someone who knows everything. When she comes home, W sometimes has long phone conversations outside in her car. She's talking to someone.
I've seen her parents and brother since everything started. If they know all the details, they are candidates for an Oscar. (I'm not ruling it out). I think her mother (who knows something about W's discontent) would be especially devastated.
Also, do not move out of the master bedroom. W wants out, let her move to the spare room, or the basement, or the Harry Potter room under the stairs.
D
I have not and will not.
Also have appointment for consultation with attorney on Tuesday.
SF, keep up the good work! Onward and upward.
SF, keep up the good work! Onward and upward.
Thank you, SteveLW.
And I also want to thank all the posters who have commented and supported this far.
Watched my older son go off to his senior prom today. He is a spectacularly good-looking young man.
I won't lie; it wasn't easy. But I held firm.
There are a number of things coming up that are going to take on a bittersweet flavor, especially his graduation and a fiftieth anniversary party for W's parents.
Afterward, W went out for dinner with my son's friend's mother.
Picked up my younger son. Just the two of us in the house. We ordered from the sushi place, one of his favorites.
You are now an emotional rock. Hold steady no matter how rough the storm.
Hi Sunflyer, one tactical approach to help your journey towards becoming an 'emotional rock' is to hit the slow-motion button at the right moment. Slow-motion also helps in more prolonged situations, like simply living through your day. Often, one comes to conclusions or assumes a particular state of mind rather quickly, even when there are no immediate provocations like a live argument. Slow motion is to move through the state-machine of your mind slowly. It allows you to deliberate which path to take toward your next state. This deliberation involves becoming conscious of the nature of the input (e.g., a cruel jab at you two hours earlier or, at this moment, a sense of entitlement that you should not be discussing your problems with your sibling, etc.) and your own processing of that input.
Not a bad day today.
Friday is my day off. I usually go out somewhere while W is working. Went on a hike at a nature preserve about an hour away.
W asked me where I was going this morning. I said, "I don't know yet."
I didn't make immediate replies to her occasional texts.
Superb weather, summerlike, and watched two eagles soaring over the marsh near the river.
Just an update on W's upcoming cosmetic surgery, which is now three weeks out...or more accurately, the first of two surgeries. Doctor said he cannot do all the work at once; the first go-round will probably take 6-8 hours alone.
She won't be able to lie down for probably a few weeks, hence the recliner she bought. Probably weeks before she can drive a car either. I will be working early in the day during her recovery but should be home by mid-afternoon; her mother is going to supervise her care when I am out of the house. But she can't be here 24/7, obviously, and leave my FIL alone.
The kicker is that based on her timeline, all of this is going to coincide with her actively trying to remove me from the house. (I am expecting to be served before surgery date. We'll see).
Thus, her dream scenario would mean that during surgery #2 in the fall, all her care and most of the care of our younger son while I'm at work all day is going to fall squarely on her family, mostly her parents, who are in their 70s.
Sounds like a good plan?
actively trying to remove me from the house
There is no legal basis for this. Do not move out under any circumstances. Train your mind to be okay with not being welcome in the house anymore.
Good Morning SF
It’s interesting how W demands you swear on your son’s life that you are telling the truth. Meanwhile, she is betraying the vows she took. Again, a rather common trait among the WAS/WS.
This is, perhaps, one of the most difficult things for me to understand.
W grew up in a close-knit family. I did not. All of her relatives preach the importance of family. Another one of her favorite quotes, uttered multiple times during our marriage, was "I take my marriage vows seriously."
It is easy to say that, of course, before the test comes. I guess I did not figure her to be someone who, when the going got rough, would just keep quiet and then grab the parachute.
Yes, until truly tested one doesn’t know just what they’ll do.
It is pretty standard for the leaving spouse to become the opposite of who they once were. Some are driven by consuming torments from past trauma(s); others reacting/responding/taking action to built up resentment(s), be those perceived or bonafide.
Regardless of the underlying “cause”, there is an emotional component to all this. Be it the absence of feelings towards the LBS; too many other feelings; numb with no feelings; hurt; angry; sad; excited; etc. Usually a hodgepodge of many emotional states.
The LBS cannot fight, nor bring order, nor peace, nor much of anything to their spouse’s emotional state, since we are the one in the divorce crosshairs. Rational logical reasons do not work. No magical words will significantly penetrate or alter their current viewpoint.
Nothing you do matters.
And everything you do does.
The LBS can only control themselves. Their thoughts, actions, and reactions. However, they can, and do, exert an influence. Giving time and space, being kind and cordial, maintaining boundaries regarding disrespectful behaviours, and such. Standing, while moving forward. All within your control. All for you. And all providing a positive influence towards busting a divorce.
W needs to work through her feelings. Needs to chip away at the pile of resentment she has. This takes time and the space to do so, all while you don’t (knowingly/purposefully) add to the pile. This is where focus on you is so important. Pretty much anything you do, can (and will) be used as fodder by W. So do for you. Make wanted changes for you. Let W do and feel what she will. Let her walk her path without manipulation. While you walk your’s.
It’s difficult to realize and do - letting the chips falls where they will, gives you the best shot.
…her mother is going to supervise her care when I am out of the house. But she can't be here 24/7, obviously, and leave my FIL alone.
The kicker is that based on her timeline, all of this is going to coincide with her actively trying to remove me from the house. (I am expecting to be served before surgery date. We'll see).
Thus, her dream scenario would mean that during surgery #2 in the fall, all her care and most of the care of our younger son while I'm at work all day is going to fall squarely on her family, mostly her parents, who are in their 70s.
Sounds like a good plan?
Obviously a poor plan. However, it is a common/similar plan. Most often they feel things will just magically happen easy peasy. Logistics, bills, housing, kids, etc… They can have some seriously misguided visions of how things will all turn out, and how the process is going to go.
I've seen her parents and brother since everything started. If they know all the details, they are candidates for an Oscar. (I'm not ruling it out). I think her mother (who knows something about W's discontent) would be especially devastated.
A sudden dumping of such a care requirement upon her unsuspecting Mom is likely to not go to well. Steer clear of this minefield.
Watched my older son go off to his senior prom today. He is a spectacularly good-looking young man.
I won't lie; it wasn't easy. But I held firm.
There are a number of things coming up that are going to take on a bittersweet flavor, especially his graduation and a fiftieth anniversary party for W's parents.
Yes, there are many milestones that have a bittersweet flavour, even without martial strife. Kids growing up and making their way, is a particular one. And a common “cause” of stirring up feelings, and exacerbating martial problems.
Senior prom is a big event in a young lad’s life. Congrats to him. Be proud of the man he is becoming.
Take care.
D
It is pretty standard for the leaving spouse to become the opposite of who they once were. Some are driven by consuming torments from past trauma(s); others reacting/responding/taking action to built up resentment(s), be those perceived or bonafide.
One of the (probably multiple) factors exacerbating the situation is what I see as a deep-seated insecurity that I believe W has about her physical appearance. This appears to be lifelong. I am going to make a separate post about this and how it has manifested, and continues to do so, in our lives.
The LBS can only control themselves. Their thoughts, actions, and reactions. However, they can, and do, exert an influence. Giving time and space, being kind and cordial, maintaining boundaries regarding disrespectful behaviours, and such. Standing, while moving forward. All within your control. All for you. And all providing a positive influence towards busting a divorce.
This I am doing. I am identifying things I want to do, or do better, for myself, and behaviors that I can modify. One of my first goals was to pay a little more attention to my own appearance. I typically would wear my hair a little on the longer side, let it grow out somewhat. I decided to change that and see how I would feel wearing it shorter all the time. It wasn't particularly long, but I got a haircut anyway. I've decided that I like it, and coincidentally it was immediately noticed by W, who complimented me on it.
Another thing is to try to do one thing I find fun or engaging each day. This one is actually harder, since it can be hard to put aside the negative feelings and jump into something positive. But I am trying.
Yes, there are many milestones that have a bittersweet flavour, even without martial strife. Kids growing up and making their way, is a particular one. And a common “cause” of stirring up feelings, and exacerbating martial problems.
Senior prom is a big event in a young lad’s life. Congrats to him. Be proud of the man he is becoming.
Take care.
D
Yes, and he's getting academic and athletic honors this week, too. A great time for him.
So...W's insecurity.
It came up again when she indicated that she wants to end our marriage.
"I don't think you find me attractive any more."
I told her that was not true.
Background: I always had a hard time dating when I was younger. I am basically introverted, plus the consensus among most of the women I met is that I am below average in the looks department. As I have gotten older, I have cared less about this. I am who I am, it's not my problem if someone else doesn't like it.
As explained in my first post, W is a bariatric patient. When we married, she weighed roughly twice what she does now. And let me say that regardless of weight, W is an extremely good-looking woman. From what I gathered, she never really had trouble getting dates and could presumably have had any man she wanted. I was actually somewhat surprised I hit it off with her; I always figured I would end up with someone "plainer" looking.
Over the years, I have heard repeatedly, "I'm fat!" In fact, I heard it again just the other day, even though she has lost almost 50% of her body mass. More recently, the complaint changes to encompass the changes that have come with her weight loss.
"Look at this loose skin. Isn't it terrible?"
"I hate the way my arms look."
Hence her upcoming surgeries, this time to deal with these weight loss effects.
Admittedly, there are some health issues that come with this. Hygiene is more difficult, and she has to wear clothes, especially pants, that are bigger than they would be otherwise, and it's very uncomfortable for her.
I have supported all of her surgical procedures, because I want her to be happy, herself. She doesn't have to do this for me. Extra weight, flabby arms, I don't care. I am hardly Mr. Slim myself. She has always excited me. But we have hardly ever made love with the lights on, at her request. Sometimes I'd leave a light on hoping she would not care. But she usually did.
So now, since she feels I don't compliment her enough, she probably has a head full of, "He can't stand the way I look anymore." (This despite the fact that she looked the exact same the last time we were together sexually, and everything worked out fine).
Obviously, I can't go around telling her how sexy she is at this point. She will think I am sucking up to her. But this is an ongoing issue.
"I don't think you find me attractive any more."
I told her that was not true.
That is not emotional validation. What is(was) her emotional state? Was she sad? If you were in her shoes would you be sad if you felt like she didn't find you attractive? Stop acting like a typical guy.
"That must make you sad."
"Does that make you sad?"
etc....
And then, there are so many levels to why she FEELS this way. I am sure you are not giving her the attention she desires.
I still fall back to the art of seduction when dealing with my lady. Read that book cover to cover many times and take notes. Change your behavior accordingly.
Obviously, I can't go around telling her how sexy she is at this point. She will think I am sucking up to her. But this is an ongoing issue.
Correct. But you can behave in ways that she will receive subconscious messages from you that you find her sexy.
Steve talks about "touch charges".
Non-verbal communication is also very powerful. Body language, tones, inflections, etc.
Next time she is talking with you, really focus on studying what you are attracted to. Do not talk about your attraction with your words, but rather your eyes. Listen to her story without trying to advise, argue etc....what is her emotional state and what you find attractive are your top priorities...then remembering the details of what she said to you...her words to you are her story and you want to know her story...no matter how much you disagree with the words she is saying.
That is not emotional validation.
I know. That exchange happened when she first talked about leaving. And not knowing anything about how to handle such a situation at the time, I engaged the counterproductive behaviors.
Those were quickly shut down as soon as I found out that acting that way doesn't help.
Next time she is talking with you, really focus on studying what you are attracted to. Do not talk about your attraction with your words, but rather your eyes. Listen to her story without trying to advise, argue etc....what is her emotional state and what you find attractive are your top priorities...then remembering the details of what she said to you...her words to you are her story and you want to know her story...no matter how much you disagree with the words she is saying.
I have made it a point to look directly into her eyes when she talks to me, regardless of the subject matter. My eyes do wander elsewhere from time to time. I am hoping this doesn't appear "creepy" to her. Her face is beautiful, but of course I like a lot more than just her face. So my gaze wanders elsewhere. I presume she notices it. I listen intently to what she says, although of course none of what she says is relationship oriented.
She came home last night after being with her brother for work related to their business. I was in the bedroom, and she changed out of her clothes right next to me. I was surprised by that since she has seemed more "demure" since the fallout. Part of me enjoyed that it happened, and part of me felt incredibly frustrated since my mind went straight to things that are now off limits.
I was in the bedroom, and she changed out of her clothes right next to me. I was surprised by that since she has seemed more "demure" since the fallout. Part of me enjoyed that it happened, and part of me felt incredibly frustrated since my mind went straight to things that are now off limits.
The first question I was going to ask is : Is your bedroom "more manly" than when you first started posting? Obviously, that is not how you are framing the discussion, so I am bringing you into my frame. Have you watched the youtube clips of Tommy Shelby how he maintains his frame? Maybe the sigma male clips?
Somehow each of us needs to learn new behaviors that increase our attractiveness. It is extremely tricky with someone soo familiar with us.
For me, my bedroom is for sex, sleeping is secondary. At least that is the thought process. If a woman is getting undressed in my bedroom, then it is in preparation for sex.
So in your case, you send her an email: "I believe it would be best if you sleep in the guest bedroom from now on."....if questioned: Not sure how playfully you can say: "After teasing me last night" or "after the stunt you pulled" or whatever communicates that her behavior is unacceptable. There is an art to doing this. She might respond positively. Or negatively....Either way, you are having fun.
Just brainstorming here. Just don't be boring.
W has outside influences.
She has been in IC for a while. Not with a marriage counselor specifically, although I am sure she is discussing that nowadays. Thus, I suspect said counselor is probably reinforcing her decision to leave the marriage rather than exploring alternatives. (By the way, I caught criticism when she first started going because I didn't inquire as to the specific reasons. Our son had been in IC for a while over different matters, and W said she was just going for her own personal improvement. I left it at that, which ultimately angered her since I didn't probe further).
The potentially scary factor: she is consulting psychics.
This is nothing new for her. Her and mother used to go from time to time. I considered it harmless. She has long known my feelings on this stuff (that it's all [censored]). But she and her mother believe in it completely.
It's really reassuring that the fate of our marriage may hang partially on what these people are telling her. /s
My position is that this can be turned around, with counseling, frank discussions, and reorganized priorities.
We all believe that when we arrive here. The problem is we are already passed the point where that may have been an option for our spouse.
After BD, a different approach needs to happen. These are all the DBing tools.
Talking never works. She needs to miss you. She needs to FEEL attraction to you. Most of our behaviors do not increase attraction while married. Women are much more complicated than us men. That is why I push newbies to dig deep into improving their understanding of attraction and seduction. Change as many behaviors as you want. Drop the unattractive traits. Start adding new attractive ways of behaving. The big issue is identify the traits you need to add or subtract.
I behave significantly different with my lady than I did with my X. All this from the wisdom I have gained since the bomb drop.
When(if) you get to piecing, you will be able to get counseling, frank discussions and reorganized priorities into place.
Until you get to piecing, you DB. You embrace this part of the process. You focus on you and your personal growth. You be the best dad. You set her free. You don't attempt to control, but rather influence.
Changing my own behavior was extremely hard. Getting posters here to change their behavior is even harder. Changing others behavior is almost impossible.
W has outside influences.
She has been in IC for a while. Not with a marriage counselor specifically, although I am sure she is discussing that nowadays. Thus, I suspect said counselor is probably reinforcing her decision to leave the marriage rather than exploring alternatives. (By the way, I caught criticism when she first started going because I didn't inquire as to the specific reasons. Our son had been in IC for a while over different matters, and W said she was just going for her own personal improvement. I left it at that, which ultimately angered her since I didn't probe further).
The potentially scary factor: she is consulting psychics.
This is nothing new for her. Her and mother used to go from time to time. I considered it harmless. She has long known my feelings on this stuff (that it's all [censored]). But she and her mother believe in it completely.
It's really reassuring that the fate of our marriage may hang partially on what these people are telling her. /s
Your post is focused on the wrong person. Look internal. Change the one person you have control of. Change the way you interact with her, and the relationship is forced to change.
She should no longer have any control over you. You lead. You make logical decisions and then behave accordingly. Do not let your emotions control you.
My position is that this can be turned around, with counseling, frank discussions, and reorganized priorities.
We all believe that when we arrive here. The problem is we are already passed the point where that may have been an option for our spouse.
After BD, a different approach needs to happen. These are all the DBing tools.
Talking never works. She needs to miss you. She needs to FEEL attraction to you. Most of our behaviors do not increase attraction while married. Women are much more complicated than us men. That is why I push newbies to dig deep into improving their understanding of attraction and seduction. Change as many behaviors as you want. Drop the unattractive traits. Start adding new attractive ways of behaving. The big issue is identify the traits you need to add or subtract.
I behave significantly different with my lady than I did with my X. All this from the wisdom I have gained since the bomb drop.
When(if) you get to piecing, you will be able to get counseling, frank discussions and reorganized priorities into place.
Until you get to piecing, you DB. You embrace this part of the process. You focus on you and your personal growth. You be the best dad. You set her free. You don't attempt to control, but rather influence.
Not to hijack this thread, and I know we discussed this before. But in my opinion it's a lot easier to attract a new person than it is to rekindle attraction with someone you've been with for a long time. You say you behave different with your new lady. Do you think when you were BD'd, if you acted like you do now, your ex would have regained attraction to you? I agree with you on everything. Just wondering your thoughts about how difficult it is to regain attraction from someone that knows you better than anyone else.
Like, if I used techniques from Neil Straus, Mystery, David Deangelo, etc on a stranger, I'd probably have success. If I did them on my W, she'd probably laugh in my face. I realize this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but if you could go back in time w/ your ex, how would your behavior change knowing what you know now, and do you think it would work?
But in my opinion it's a lot easier to attract a new person than it is to rekindle attraction with someone you've been with for a long time.
For most of us I believe that is true. For other posters, I have seen the spouse respond positively. Coach and PuppyDogTails stand out. They both did a great job and making significant changes quickly.
You say you behave different with your new lady. Do you think when you were BD'd, if you acted like you do now, your ex would have regained attraction to you?
Maybe if I would have changed a few years before the bomb drop.
Just wondering your thoughts about how difficult it is to regain attraction from someone that knows you better than anyone else.
I just know people here have done it. Each of us have different sitch, but a lot of similar behaviors got us to the BD.
Like, if I used techniques from Neil Straus, Mystery, David Deangelo, etc on a stranger, I'd probably have success.
Yes, much easier on a stranger. Having a long term relationship is the challenge.
If I did them on my W, she'd probably laugh in my face.
I see it more as indirect attraction. Social proof. In my case, I interacted with my X more like I would with my guy friends if that makes sense. With my current partner, I treat her different. I am more protective, romantic, leading..more masculine behaviors...etc.
I realize this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but if you could go back in time w/ your ex, how would your behavior change knowing what you know now, and do you think it would work?
If I went back far enough, I am sure we could have addressed the issues. I am sure she would have been open to it.
I would have been more protective of the relationship. OM is spending more time with W was a big red flag that I was ignorant of. Not having date night. The list goes on and on.
Changing my own behavior was extremely hard. Getting posters here to change their behavior is even harder. Changing others behavior is almost impossible.
W has outside influences.
She has been in IC for a while. Not with a marriage counselor specifically, although I am sure she is discussing that nowadays. Thus, I suspect said counselor is probably reinforcing her decision to leave the marriage rather than exploring alternatives. (By the way, I caught criticism when she first started going because I didn't inquire as to the specific reasons. Our son had been in IC for a while over different matters, and W said she was just going for her own personal improvement. I left it at that, which ultimately angered her since I didn't probe further).
The potentially scary factor: she is consulting psychics.
This is nothing new for her. Her and mother used to go from time to time. I considered it harmless. She has long known my feelings on this stuff (that it's all [censored]). But she and her mother believe in it completely.
It's really reassuring that the fate of our marriage may hang partially on what these people are telling her. /s
Your post is focused on the wrong person. Look internal. Change the one person you have control of. Change the way you interact with her, and the relationship is forced to change.
She should no longer have any control over you. You lead. You make logical decisions and then behave accordingly. Do not let your emotions control you.
100% this. Read R2C’s advice over and over.
I can relate very much to what R2C is saying. If I had made the necessary changes years before BD, things would be way different.
Rockon,
We should all strive to make changes for ourselves to improve our lives post-BD. And each of us should have made the necessary changes years before BD. But if we had made the changes things "might have" been way different in our marriages. Or they might not. However, that doesn't matter now. Everyone needs to make changes so that their lives improve. If you put in the work, you will be happier a couple of years from now. I am doing much better now than I was the day before BD.
The part that R2C wrote that I would read over is: "Your post is focused on the wrong person."
Spiral
W approached me this morning to have a talk. Long talk, so I can only distill the gist of it here. May have gone into some areas that it shouldn't have, but the tone was calm and quiet the whole time, no shouting or arguing.
W: I have been thinking, and I know this is not what you want to hear, but I believe it is best if we separate.
H: I know that some of my behavior must have been very hurtful to you, and I am deeply sorry for that. But I am not sure if this is the best path to take. I think we owe it to ourselves and our boys to explore all options. I am not, of course, saying to stay together for the sake of the boys.
W: I do not think you are really engaged with the boys. They love and respect you, but sometimes I feel like a single parent. Also, I think we have changed, both of us. People are never the same after this long. I am not up for trying to make things "better." I have felt this way for a long time. I can't do it. I'm not happy. Please don't think I am blaming you for all of this. I know I have a part in it as well.
H: Did you ever think, early on, of mentioning these things when they became an issue?
W: I did, but I thought things would get better. I thought perhaps, things weren't so bad and that I could go on. Please don't think I am not going through pain over this. I am going through a lot of pain.
H: Do you think you will be happy if we separate? Or simply less unhappy than you are now?
W: I don't know. I don't really have an answer to that.
H: How do you see your personal and professional life, post-separation?
W: Well, I like what I am doing with the business. My job is stressful, but it is always stressful. What do you mean by "personal life?"
H: Another relationship? No relationship? (Kind of fishing for hints of an A here, without asking her directly if there is someone else).
W: I don't know. I haven't really thought about that at all.
H: I would like some time to process this.
She indicated that she recently told her parents, and that they have given her the money for a retainer.
She wants to go through mediation. Says that she doesn't want us to be at each other's throats. Says that we have never lived that way and that she wouldn't want the boys to see that.
Yesterday there was a combined 70th birthday party and 50th anniversary party for her mother and aunt. (They are twins and got married in a double wedding). Her parents gave no hint of knowing what was going on, but of course they knew by then.
I did get suspicious a couple of times. When we took family pictures, FIL gave me a double tap on the shoulder as if to reassure me of something. And I overheard him say toward the end that this might be one of the last times we were all together. (He could also have been referring to his mother, who is in her 90s and can barely walk at this point).
Quick follow up: I was just about to call my sister to talk about this. (I have said nothing about it to her). W said she wanted to go out for a while.
Opened up my phone and according to the tracking app, W has beat me to the punch, as she's already over there.
Good Morning SF
It’s time to back off with W. Way off! Lots of time and space. Look up last resort technique (LRT) in DR for ideas of how to implement that. W has stated in pretty certain terms that she wants to be separated, she’s even arranged/asked for a loan from her parents for the lawyer retainer.
I know this is going to feel odd, feel counterintuitive: Any pressure or rational discussion/reasons to stick together will only push her out the door faster. She needs to feel what it’s like to be separated, and then realize that separation isn’t the answer to her unhappiness.
You cannot do that for her. You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her. She’s on her path, and on her timeline.
You only can control you.
Get your own lawyer. Discuss your situation with them.
I’d not go the mediator route. I’d use lawyers. Lawyers ensure each party is protected and understands the legality of what they are signing.
If W is after an amicable split, like her proposed usage of a mediator suggests, a separation agreement should be straightforward. You two can basically self mediate/resolve/sort things out. Or you can’t. If it’s the latter, and I mean seriously the latter (cannot/will not agree), then lawyers will be required anyhow.
This is the business side of your situation. And will likely be the biggest decision of your life (custody, finances, pensions, house, and so on). Ensure you are making it wisely. Have legal counsel.
Let W own this decision. Let her lead. You, and your L, respond to what she proposes.
For your piece of mind, and to start letting W feel what it’s like to be separated, turn off the tracking on her. Spying just keeps one attached. Best to cleave that from your life.
Really focus on you and the kids. W is firing you as husband. Do not be her backup plan, nor her support person. Let her do for herself. You cannot woo her back with flowers and such. In fact, you know where that kind of behaviour will lead you. So, you take a different path forward. Time and space. Focus on you. GAL. And maybe, she awakens. Or maybe not. Yet, either way, you will be ok.
This is not the end. Just a bump in the road.
D
My 2 Cents:
W: I have been thinking, and I know this is not what you want to hear, but I believe it is best if we separate.
You have heard her. Now you support her. You ask her how soon she can move out and what you can do to help.
W....but sometimes I feel like a single parent..
Might be a red flag for you. My X pulled this BS on me. I was more involved than she was. Step up your parenting game. I assume you want 50/50 if you split. Until you have a written parenting agreement in place, be involved more than 50% of the time. Let her go out on Friday nights, Saturday nights etc. Have fun cooking dinner with the kids and watch movies or whatever is age appropriate. Take all the kids out (diner or movies or whatever) during the weekdays and leave mom at home to do whatever she wants.
I am not up for trying to make things "better." I have felt this way for a long time. I can't do it. I'm not happy.
Confidently accept your current reality. Project to her that you will be happy without her.
H: Did you ever think....Do you think......How do you.... Another relationship?...No relationship?
Those should be your last questions. You may slip. but now is the time to stop.
H: I would like some time to process this.
Best response ever.
She wants to go through mediation
You do not need mediation until you disagree on something. Take this time to clarify what you would like to see. Wait for her to make the first proposal. Get legal advise.
Do some research on mediators, find 3 you like and send her the list. ask her to pick one. Let her know if she doesn't like any of yours, to find 3 others that she likes and you will take a look at them. Do this before she initiates anything else. I strongly suggest in the next few days.
She wouldn't want the boys to see that.
Use this to your advantage.
Good Morning SF
It’s time to back off with W. Way off! Lots of time and space. Look up last resort technique (LRT) in DR for ideas of how to implement that. W has stated in pretty certain terms that she wants to be separated, she’s even arranged/asked for a loan from her parents for the lawyer retainer.
I know this is going to feel odd, feel counterintuitive: Any pressure or rational discussion/reasons to stick together will only push her out the door faster. She needs to feel what it’s like to be separated, and then realize that separation isn’t the answer to her unhappiness.
You cannot do that for her. You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her. She’s on her path, and on her timeline.
I fully understand that I cannot pressure her. This is the first R talk since she first mentioned splitting three weeks ago. I closed the subject down and let her come to me.
If W is after an amicable split, like her proposed usage of a mediator suggests, a separation agreement should be straightforward. You two can basically self mediate/resolve/sort things out. Or you can’t. If it’s the latter, and I mean seriously the latter (cannot/will not agree), then lawyers will be required anyhow.
As mentioned in a previous post, I found some notes in her planner where she was working through a possible scenario. Don't know if what she comes back with will be exactly this, but key points are:
Custody--joint, straight 50/50
House--she wants it, to buy me out (which will mean more $ from her parents since our house is worth in the ballpark of 500K)
Retirement--we each keep our own IRA's. She also has a 401k, and I have a small 403b from a previous job and proposes we each keep those. She would claim a portion of my pension. Theoretically I could retire in four years, but with child support for our youngest going another seven years, that ain't happening. Probably going to be in the work force until 67-70 unless my health gives out first
Inheritance--I have an inheritance from my mother (my share of the proceeds from the sale of her house when she died), and proposal is that I would keep all of it provided that the boys are named 50/50 beneficiaries
Older son's car--me to pay half the remaining loan payment or have same deducted from house buyout
Health insurance for boys--I am required to maintain; hopefully would be able to keep them on my work plan
Out of pocket medical, college, and gift expenses to be 50/50 split
Plus the usual 50/50 split of checking and savings accounts.
The lawyer I have spoken with indicates that spousal support is not on the table at the present time as we both make six figure salaries that are close. I guess she could suddenly decide to quit her job, but the combined child and spousal support she would get would still fall significantly short of what she now makes.
Really focus on you and the kids. W is firing you as husband. Do not be her backup plan, nor her support person. Let her do for herself. You cannot woo her back with flowers and such. In fact, you know where that kind of behaviour will lead you. So, you take a different path forward. Time and space. Focus on you. GAL. And maybe, she awakens. Or maybe not. Yet, either way, you will be ok.
This is not the end. Just a bump in the road.
D
No wooing or begging going on. I am trusting that you are correct about the bump in the road. It seems odd, but I felt a release when she finished talking, rather than more sadness.
Hello SF
The key points that W had mentioned in her planner do sound like 50/50. I’ll pass on a few things I learnt and experienced along my journey, such as they are as locales do have differing rules on certain items. I found it comforting to know someone else had gone through this before. Anyhow,
The insurance on your boys is likely mandatory. Children’s rights and protections are usually ensured and are not subject to waiver or negotiation. The kids should automatically remain on your work plan, regardless of martial status. In fact, once I retired, my younger kids’ enrolment on to my retirement insurance was mandatory as well.
Your inheritance should be completely your’s. That is for the dollars in an account. Anything you’ve invested or spent upon martial assets, like house renovations, becomes part of that joint asset.
Checking and savings accounts are allocated according to name on the account, regardless of who actually deposited the funds or the intended purpose of the funds.
With similar incomes and pensions your future finances sound pretty much like what you current have. I’d not balk at an agreement. Financial security is important, and as time goes on, most spouse’s generosity goes too.
It seems odd, but I felt a release when she finished talking, rather than more sadness.
Uncertainty does increase one’s anxiety. Knowing, even the unwanted news/information about what W is thinking/planning, lessens the uncertainty of it all. And information is power.
I am trusting that you are correct about the bump in the road.
Yes, merely a bump in
your road.
Things aren’t done until you say so. You can stand for as long as you like. You can stand down whenever you like. You control you. Where there is love, there is hope. And hope is timeless.
As I said, from someone who has gone before, this is a bump in the road. It will be very life altering. And if you follow DB principles, a most positive life altering.
Hang in there.
D
W asked me yesterday if I had thought more about what she proposed. I said I was still processing. It is obvious she wants to move the divorce forward.
When she asks again, I will make it clear that if she wants to separate that I will not be moving out as long as D is not final. She can move out, and I will help her do it.
I have, however, been mulling whether or not to suggest a trial separation. This would require her to "put down the weapon" for a while, so to speak. My feeling is that she would not go for that.
Assuming the latter, then I am inclined to simply let things go forward while I work on preparing for a fulfilling life without her, and see if she awakens at some point.
She really seems confused. Frankly, sometimes I feel more sorry for her than myself. Still does not know if D will fix her unhappiness. Still doesn't know what she wants out of life. Started crying the other day and let an "I love you" slip, the first one I've heard in a long while.
I found some old emails from her; one was written when we were making up after some fight. It was almost shocking to read the words she wrote compared to what she says and feels now. I feel like I'm living in the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," where people are replaced by alien duplicates, and their friends, husbands, wives, etc. just know that these aren't the people they've known for years.
W asked me yesterday if I had thought more about what she proposed. I said I was still processing. It is obvious she wants to move the divorce forward.
Perfect.
When she asks again, I will make it clear that if she wants to separate that I will not be moving out as long as D is not final. She can move out, and I will help her do it.
H:"
I am happy here. If separating is the
only way to make you happy,
I will help you move out."
I really like the statement above. You are happy, even when she is not. You let her know indirectly that there are other solutions to her unhappiness. You will help her even if you disagree with her. Facial expressions, infections, body language are even more important than the words. PuppyDogTails talked about how he would practice in the mirror.
I have, however, been mulling whether or not to suggest a trial separation. This would require her to "put down the weapon" for a while, so to speak. My feeling is that she would not go for that.
I strongly suggest not suggesting "trial". It is counter intuitive, but you projecting an excitement for your new freedom would be better.
H:"W, I think it would be best if you found your own place as soon as possible." This kind of statement comes from your belief that you do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with you.
Two of my early DBing mantras:
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me."
"I do not share my woman with other men (or other women)."
These are part of my core beliefs that I had to clarify after BD. Get yours nailed down during this process.
Also, the less words, the better. Use just enough to get your point across.
You can keep deflecting, until you have made a decision.
"I am still thinking."
"I have not decided"
"This is an important decision. You have had lots of time to think about this. This is all new to me and I need more time."
Started crying the other day and let an "I love you" slip, the first one I've heard in a long while.
Just be the emotional rock during this process. Now is the time to project strength through adversity. Jordan perter son talks of facing the dragon.
"Invasion of the Body Snatchers," where people are replaced by alien duplicates, and their friends, husbands, wives, etc. just know that these aren't the people they've known for years.
So your wife wants to leave the person she knows the most about. You have to embrace just as many changes to you. She needs to see you as someone completely new.
"I have never seen you iron in my life" was one of the statement that stands out from my X. Be new, exciting, different. Surprise her.
As usual, R2C is right about everything. DB is a completely different way of thinking.
"I have never seen you iron in my life" was one of the statement that stands out.
The problem with these kinds of statements is that they are generally a no win situation. A WAW just wants to watch the world burn. After making a statement like this about ironing, consider the two responses a LBH could give:
1. Do nothing. And when you don’t leap into action and do all the ironing yourself, she sees this as you not caring about how she feels. You haven’t listened. So you’re vindicating her decision to leave.
2. You suddenly start doing all the ironing. But then she sees you as a weak, easy to manipulate man. You’re just doing it to win her back. If you’d cared you would have done it before bomb day.
See the problem with a WAW? By the time she gets to BD, no matter what you do, you’re wrong. Either you haven’t listened because you’re a pig, or you’re just trying to trick her back to the marriage and she can’t trust you.
This is why LBH tie themselves up in knots. Because they’re trying to make an impossibly unhappy person happy.
There is actually another option:
3. Take your stuff to the dry cleaner for ironing and pay $10-$20/week to get your shirts and pants pressed. Don’t tell her, just take them, get them done, and pick them up.
It proves you have listened to her complain about ironing. But you aren’t being weak and beta by trying to do everything yourself to keep her happy. Plus it proves you are a strong man and can manage your life without her.
One of the DB skills I wished I’d mastered earlier was identifying traps and impossible situations. If my now ex-wife sends be a text message along the same lines (wanting an argument, or where I picture any reply I give she will find fault with) - then I just hit delete and ignore it.
I have, however, been mulling whether or not to suggest a trial separation.
Don’t suggest a trial separation. It will sound to her like you’re pretending to listen but your real end goal is to get her back. She won’t feel heard.
She really seems confused. Frankly, sometimes I feel more sorry for her than myself. Still does not know if D will fix her unhappiness. Still doesn't know what she wants out of life. Started crying the other day and let an "I love you" slip, the first one I've heard in a long while.
Don’t mull on this. All you’re doing is hurting yourself. She needs to work out what she wants from life by herself.
I found some old emails from her; one was written when we were making up after some fight. It was almost shocking to read the words she wrote compared to what she says and feels now. I feel like I'm living in the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," where people are replaced by alien duplicates, and their friends, husbands, wives, etc. just know that these aren't the people they've known for years.
Again, all you’re doing is hurting yourself.
One of the worst things about being a LBS is the speed at which your life gets turned upside down. We CRAVE things to be like they used to be, so sometimes we read old messages or letters or look at photos because it allows us to disappear temporarily from this place of pain and uncertainty and change.
But all you’re doing this hurting yourself. Looking at old letters or emails is like taking drugs for a short term fix. Might make you feel better, might allow you to disappear into a place of comfort temporarily, but you’ll just end up with a hangover and feeling even worse afterwards.
Bomb drop is bomb drop. Drop the rope and know that moving forward rather than trying to disappear back is actually more likely to bring a successful reconciliation.
If you’re having great difficulty with thinking a lot about the past, read my exercise thread which has a technique for controlling rumination.
3. Take your stuff to the dry cleaner for ironing and pay $10-$20/week to get your shirts and pants pressed. Don’t tell her, just take them, get them done, and pick them up.
Yup. A few new items of clothing a week helps as well.
Don’t suggest a trial separation. It will sound to her like you’re pretending to listen but your real end goal is to get her back. She won’t feel heard.
Didn't think it was the best option, but thought I'd get some feedback.
So this puts me back to advocating her moving out, if she really wants separation, while continuing to stall her D proceedings.
I have all the patience in the world. I am used to working and waiting years to get what I want. She isn't. There is a good chance her temper will flare and her resentment will grow as I continue to process things.
Her reasoning is that she doesn't want an acrimonious, lengthy court battle. Wants to basically self-mediate. Says it would be so much easier for her to make the break if I was a jerk rather than the good person I am.
If you’re having great difficulty with thinking a lot about the past, read my exercise thread which has a technique for controlling rumination.
I found this thread and will try that.
I wasn't looking for the old emails, btw. They were in a separate folder online that I'd forgotten about until I spotted it the other day. Most of them were about mundane things.
So this puts me back to advocating her moving out, if she really wants separation, while continuing to stall her D proceedings.
In the majority of cases, kicking them out is actually the fastest route to a reconciliation. A WAS/WS has to walk a journey of pain to realise that you aren’t the reason for their unhappiness. You can accelerate them on that journey by giving them what they want.
But I wouldn’t advocate “stalling” the divorce. Just don’t accelerate it. She wants the divorce, she can do the work. If you deliberately stall it, all she sees is a man who is prolonging her pain. She’ll continue to build resentment against you, and reconciliation will be less likely.
Her reasoning is that she doesn't want an acrimonious, lengthy court battle. Wants to basically self-mediate. Says it would be so much easier for her to make the break if I was a jerk rather than the good person I am.
You are definitely going to get a better deal in the early stages, and without lawyer involvement. I get that you aren’t ready for this, but the longer you hold out, the more likely she will want more, become more acrimonious and get lawyers involved.
The problem with lawyers is that they get paid the most when it gets drawn out for a long time, so they’ll encourage you two to fight and argue to line their own pockets.
If a wayward gives an offer early on, they’re likely in a hurry because they want to start their new relationship ASAP. And that’s likely the best offer you’re going to get. No matter how much you don’t want a divorce, if she’s wanting to mediate a solution ASAP and outside lawyers and the court system, you’d be well advised to consider accepting it.
But I wouldn’t advocate “stalling” the divorce. Just don’t accelerate it. She wants the divorce, she can do the work. If you deliberately stall it, all she sees is a man who is prolonging her pain. She’ll continue to build resentment against you, and reconciliation will be less likely.
That's exactly my concern.
So I guess if she wants to discuss terms, I tell her that I am open to discussing terms, while leaving the work up to her.
So I guess if she wants to discuss terms, I tell her that I am open to discussing terms, while leaving the work up to her.
I strongly suggest that you do not have discussions. Ask her for her proposal in writing and you will review it. You can then respond in writing.
"I do not have time to discuss this right now. Send me an email and I will review your proposal...I got to go." then go do something. Stay busy. Be productive. Be on purpose.
So I guess if she wants to discuss terms, I tell her that I am open to discussing terms, while leaving the work up to her.
I strongly suggest that you do not have discussions. Ask her for her proposal in writing and you will review it. You can then respond in writing.
"I do not have time to discuss this right now. Send me an email and I will review your proposal...I got to go." then go do something. Stay busy. Be productive. Be on purpose.
I like this.
The ONLY possible caveat is that she, in particular, seems to have a real aversion to my discussing important things with her in writing. When she first started laying out her complaints about how things were going (about two months ago), I sent her some of my thoughts the following day.
She said, "I really wish you had discussed this with me in person."
This is a pet peeve she has. I would actually prefer for her to write something out. Just don't want to throw gasoline on the fire.
So...last night she came to me and asked if I had given any further thought to the proceedings.
I asked her to write up her ideas so I could look at them.
She said okay.
So once she does that, the question remains whether I respond verbally (which may not be the best route) or in writing (which I would prefer but which may set off "there you go again not wanting to talk to me about important things face to face.")
Good Morning SF
The written word has more a sense of permanence to it than a verbal discussion. Things written are more accurate than one’s recollection; be that intentionally or unintentionally misremembered. This also speaks to accountability; and having one’s words written, clearly spells out what you and her discussed and/or agreed to.
To that end, and in my view, it is really good to exchange proposals in written format. However, the negotiating - if she is willing to - is more efficient verbally. Basically, the first draft proposal from her is coming in writing. You review, and then talk with her about certain changes (if you have any you’d like). Speaking face to face allows you to better gauge her willingness of such negotiating, and allows you to better discover what she is truly after. You’d be surprised what folks hold dear, some forgoing custody or alimony for an upfront lump sum payment.
Of course, negotiations is when both parties can actually discuss things. There are some situations where one or both are at each other’s throats. Your situation is not that, and sounds like a verbal face to face discussion will be fruitful for fleshing out the ideas into an actual agreement.
After a wee back and forth (if necessary, depends on her proposal), the first draft is updated and sent to the other party. I’d likely ask her to update her proposal to the new and agreed upon terms. That places her accountable and allows her to feel more in control. (One’s spouse feeling in control increases their accepting of negotiation. If they feel they came up with the idea, it has a much better chance of success.) After she forwards you the next draft, review again. Repeat as necessary. She is pushing the proceedings, so let her do the heavy lifting.
Once you and her have a written, agreed to, document that covers the major stuff, speak with your lawyers. One (mostly likely her) of you would have their lawyer send a signed proposal to the other. Then the other carefully reviews - there will be things you and her didn’t likely consider or knew about that need to be addressed. Any changes would hopefully be small at this point, and there would be very little back and forth between the lawyers.
You only sign a proposal you agree with. Be it a proposal your lawyer is sending and offering for her signature, or a proposal her lawyer has sent for your signature. Once both of you (and your lawyers) have signed the proposal, the agreement is complete and binding.
Depending upon your locale the degree of “legally binding” at this point needs to be understood. My locale, this would be a separation agreement. Divorce would require a minimum one year cooldown period, before a divorce proposal could be offered by one party. Divorce does not automatically follow, one has to request it. That proposal is a similar proceeding as before. And the divorce proposal “could” have alterations to the previously agreed to separation agreement; hence the degree of binding caveat.
Once the divorce proposal is hashed out and signed by both, it is forwarded to the courts. After a judge has reviewed and signed, the agreement is then legally binding.
If a divorce is being sought and an agreement cannot be met, it can be requested to be taken to the courtroom where a ruling would be imposed. And this becomes legally binding.
Where I live, even this is not absolute. This divorce can still be re-opened. As more and more time passes, the risk/likelihood of such a request to the courts being granted becomes less and less. For example, one demanding their divorce agreement of two decades ago be redone is highly likely to be dismissed, then one of mere months ago. Also, the party that pushed/demanded for the divorce, in writing; made/offered the proposal, in writing; is unlikely to get “their” agreement re-examined/overturned. (Again, my locale. Other places are much more strict and agreements are more binding.)
Anyhow, there can be a business side of letting one’s spouse do the heavy lifting. It’s not just letting them feel what being divorce is like.
D
Depending upon your locale the degree of “legally binding” at this point needs to be understood. My locale, this would be a separation agreement. Divorce would require a minimum one year cooldown period, before a divorce proposal could be offered by one party. Divorce does not automatically follow, one has to request it. That proposal is a similar proceeding as before. And the divorce proposal “could” have alterations to the previously agreed to separation agreement; hence the degree of binding caveat.
Once the divorce proposal is hashed out and signed by both, it is forwarded to the courts. After a judge has reviewed and signed, the agreement is then legally binding.
If a divorce is being sought and an agreement cannot be met, it can be requested to be taken to the courtroom where a ruling would be imposed. And this becomes legally binding.
Where I live, even this is not absolute. This divorce can still be re-opened. As more and more time passes, the risk/likelihood of such a request to the courts being granted becomes less and less. For example, one demanding their divorce agreement of two decades ago be redone is highly likely to be dismissed, then one of mere months ago. Also, the party that pushed/demanded for the divorce, in writing; made/offered the proposal, in writing; is unlikely to get “their” agreement re-examined/overturned. (Again, my locale. Other places are much more strict and agreements are more binding.)
Anyhow, there can be a business side of letting one’s spouse do the heavy lifting. It’s not just letting them feel what being divorce is like.
D
Thank you for all of this. Where I am, separation isn't a requirement and we have no-fault divorce, so if neither party wants to charge the other with a fault, then it becomes a matter of agreeing on the terms, having the legal agreement drawn up, both parties approving it and then submitting it to the court.
On the one hand, this can result in less conflict during the process, and might motivate some people to get out of really harmful or toxic marriages that might not do so otherwise.
The down side is that it can be argued that it makes marriages disposable and makes it easier for one party to simply walk out if they have no interest in working to reconcile.
W asked for another talk today. This time, asking if I had thought about how we are going to tell our boys. I replied that I hadn't thought about it yet.
The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."
And she said that very thing again: "I really do believe this is the best for everyone."
She looked at me and said, "You want to say something. I can tell."
I said, "I've said everything I have to say about this. No point in saying it again."
Then I got up and left the room. I wasn't going to let her draw me in.
The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."
I definitely have quoted some of the details on telling the children. This has been discussed here quit a bit.
This is one of the most difficult parts of the process. Get yourself prepared by searching through the quotes threads.
W asked for another talk today. This time, asking if I had thought about how we are going to tell our boys. I replied that I hadn't thought about it yet.
The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."
And she said that very thing again: "I really do believe this is the best for everyone."
She looked at me and said, "You want to say something. I can tell."
I said, "I've said everything I have to say about this. No point in saying it again."
Then I got up and left the room. I wasn't going to let her draw me in.
Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol
Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol
It is amazing, isn't it? While the backgrounds may differ, I see so many similarities when I read the situations of the various people on this forum. I understand why this walkaway spouse thing is called a syndrome. It's almost like there is an unwritten script, and they all are following it to the letter.
I hope you were able to have some kind of a decent Father's Day. I did. The difficult feelings were definitely there, but I didn't show them. W's brother hosted and the in-laws were as kind to me as ever, even though they know what is going on. While I expect their sympathies are with their daughter, I think they know I am a decent human being. I didn't cheat on their daughter, or abuse her, or come home drunk every night.
The only person I'm a bit ticked off at is my older son. Usually both of my sons write me a hand made card. My younger son did that, but not the older one. Although he does have a new girlfriend, so perhaps he is a bit preoccupied.
Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol
It is amazing, isn't it? While the backgrounds may differ, I see so many similarities when I read the situations of the various people on this forum. I understand why this walkaway spouse thing is called a syndrome. It's almost like there is an unwritten script, and they all are following it to the letter.
I hope you were able to have some kind of a decent Father's Day. I did. The difficult feelings were definitely there, but I didn't show them. W's brother hosted and the in-laws were as kind to me as ever, even though they know what is going on. While I expect their sympathies are with their daughter, I think they know I am a decent human being. I didn't cheat on their daughter, or abuse her, or come home drunk every night.
The only person I'm a bit ticked off at is my older son. Usually both of my sons write me a hand made card. My younger son did that, but not the older one. Although he does have a new girlfriend, so perhaps he is a bit preoccupied.
Glad to hear you had a good day. I did as well. Took son fishing in the morning, then spent a few hours watching the Thunderbirds fly over my parents house.
Yes, they certainly seem to follow the exact same script. It's a shame there aren't websites or something out there that can reinforce to them that this is a syndrome/disorder. Instead, most of their friends, TV shows, etc will cheer them on saying 'you go girl!'
One brief follow up to my previous post. Got nice cards and/or gifts from my in-laws and from my sister-in-law's parents.
W left me a card as well, on my chair.
The front of the card said "thinking of you at this difficult time."
You know, a sympathy card.
Like when somebody dies.
Just like Terapin, your story is the same as mine. With the exception being I knew there was an OM. The advice you are getting is spot on. I'm almost 14 months post bd, so I'm no expert. Having said that, I went through everything you are now and can tell you how it worked out for me. Post bd I became super husband-cleaning, laundry, cooking, etc. Problem is, I already did my fair share, she was just rewriting history. It didn't work. She told me at one point I had become the perfect husband. Whatever. Perfect meaning the only one doing anything. Ended that and went back to doing my fair share, no more. She thought maybe we try an in home separation. Fine, feel free to move into the basement because I'm not leaving my bed. She didn't. Eventually she wanted to separate so she could decide between me and him. I told her I didn't want that however if she was set on separating I was not leaving my home and kids. So she moved in with her parents. Eventually, about a month later, I told her I would no longer share my wife with another man. Told her she had 24 hours to decide. Mind you I had not found this site yet and would have probably been told that I was being controlling. Doesn't matter. I was mentally exhausted and at the time it seemed like the best option. Surprisingly she came home. For many months things were bad and I felt like we were living on borrowed time. I adopted the attitude of not wanting to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. Things got better for me. All of this was to say-listen and use the advice you are receiving. You may not save your marriage. You can save you. Good luck. Also, typing these things I realize I said like Mr. Tough Guy doing all the hard, correct things. Far from it. The night she moved out was the hardest day of my life. Actually telling her to leave because I wasn't about killed me. I've been on here spilling my guts to complete strangers just to help with the pain. It isn't easy and it hurts. Just know that you are doing the right things to help you no matter how wrong it feels.
Post bd I became super husband-cleaning, laundry, cooking, etc. Problem is, I already did my fair share, she was just rewriting history. It didn't work.
Well, I was never super husband in this regard, and I haven't tried to become that now. But there are things I've always done, and I continue to do them. Load/unload dishwasher, finish/bring up laundry as needed (W and older son have a habit of leaving stuff in either the washer or dryer after it is finished), clean kitchen floor, etc.
Personally, I have never felt the need to be super caretaker of the household for two reasons: one, we have cleaners who come in regularly and two, because W has never seemed to care about this. Our dining room (including the table) is currently loaded with supplies for her side business. People coming over to eat meant putting that stuff somewhere else. Our bedroom floor is routinely littered with her clothes and other stuff, sometimes to the point that I have to step over them. (I refuse to clean them up for her. If I can keep my stuff off the floor, she can as well). The one or two times I mentioned it, she said, "You didn't marry Suzy Homemaker." Which, of course, misses the point entirely.
Our house has been entirely renovated since we moved in 23 years ago; some parts of it have been renovated twice. The only area that still needs to be done is the basement. She led me to believe we'd start working on that this year. In the basement I have a small "man cave" which is where all my junk is piled. I know the room needs to be redone, but I would need to come up with a plan for storing all my stuff, and unlike her I care what happens to my stuff.
She has hounded me about what a mess the room is. This from the person who tosses clothes all over the floor and fills the dining room with business supplies. At least my junk is somewhere that no one can see it or trip over it!
I've been on here spilling my guts to complete strangers just to help with the pain. It isn't easy and it hurts. Just know that you are doing the right things to help you no matter how wrong it feels.
Mike, I understand completely. The pain is exquisite at times. It is painful to watch someone I thought I knew for 25 years transform into a flailing, destroying entity. Of course I don't mean she is literally being violent or screaming all the time; she's usually quite calm. It's her actions that constitute this.
I've got issues of my own. I made mistakes in my marriage, and I've suffered in the past from feelings of inadequacy. But one thing I am learning from all this is that my values, the ones I brought into the marriage, are still the same. Unlike hers, they haven't changed.
And the more crazy things she does, the better I look to myself all the time. I have ideas for how to make our relationship better, but she is not in a position to hear them. And if she doesn't want to hear them, then I will take those ideas and put them into a relationship with another woman in the future. And that woman will benefit, and W will have lost out.
It's crazy how much they change, isn't it. We all made mistakes, we just weren't always given the opportunity to correct those mistakes before shtf. As others have said, I don't believe any changes we could have made would have mattered all that much. Whatever brings on this "syndrome" is in that person, waiting to come to light at some point. IMO.
The front of the card said "thinking of you at this difficult time."
What an idiot. Is she really dumb enough to give you a consolation card?
YOU REALLY NEED TO ASK YOURSELF IF YOU WANT TO BE WITH SOMEONE SO DUMB AND EMOTIONALLY RETARDED.
One of the most valuable things for me with DB.com was it showed me that what I considered crap behaviour is normal in the divorce world.
Every time I came here and said “My idiotic partner has said/done/been …” there would normally be someone that came along and said “That’s nothing, my WAS/WS did xyz …”
You have every right to be angry about her BS card, but it’s actually very consistent and normal behaviour for a WAS/WS. Ask DNJ about some of the crazy stuff his ex wife did - it boggles the mind.
These things become much easier to deal with if you adjust your expectations. Sending a condolence card seems like a stupid thing to do - for a normal person! But for a WAS/WS, it’s completely normal.
You can expect more dumb **** from her. Don’t let it rattle you. And know that thousands of people before you have been subjected to the same BS behaviour, and have got through it.
Probably this is very politically incorrect, but I’m going to say it anyway. Once I had my emotions under control post-BD, every time my ex wife did or said something stupid, I’d imagine she was mentally disabled or she’d been in a car crash and banged her head. Made it easier for me to ignore her and not get wound up by how wildly inappropriate she was being.
Expect more of the same 🤪 mate. You’ve got this 💪
These things become much easier to deal with if you adjust your expectations. Sending a condolence card seems like a stupid thing to do - for a normal person! But for a WAS/WS, it’s completely normal.
She did wish me Happy Father's Day verbally, so I don't think it would have killed her to give me a card that said the same thing.
No card would have actually been preferable to the one I got.
Her parents and brother gave me actual, nice cards with cash and gift cards inside. And they are aware that she wants to divorce me. (I do not expect a gift from her, of course).
My niece (who talks to W a lot but is usually quiet around me) wrote "I love you so much" inside the card.
You can bet I will be keeping those cards.
If nothing else, any belief I might have had that I was the only one responsible for this situation evaporates with each of these actions.
Busy weekend.
Yesterday was my older son's HS graduation in the morning, followed by a pizza party for BIL's son finishing elementary school.
Today is the graduation party for my older son. It's also our anniversary, which is now just another day. Last night W told me her parents gave us an anniversary gift (check). I was surprised, given the circumstances. She asked if we want to split it, which is our usual custom. I half-heartedly said, "I guess." It was very thoughtful of her parents, but honestly, I don't really care what she does with the money at this point. Money doesn't compensate for a family lost.
My younger sister will be at the graduation party. She is visiting from out of state and I rarely see her. W asked if I wanted to inform her of our situation at the party. I told her no, and I hope she doesn't go behind my back on this. I remained calm when she suggested this, but inside I wanted to scream. This is a happy event, with my sister whom I rarely see, and we're supposed to take her aside and say, "By the way, we're getting divorced?"
This is something I will handle with my family, when I feel it is appropriate. Today is not that day.
She just came to me and said this: "Today is our anniversary, and I know this is not the way we were planning on spending it, but I just want you to know that I do care."
This is now becoming a standard phrase whenever she mentions anything relating to the R. I hear it over and over.
"I do care."
"I do care."
"I do care."
Sounds hollow to me.
I got this a lot too. I know how frustrating it is to hear it when their actions show this to be very much false.
As far as it concerns you it is hollow. What they do care about is the pain they are feeling when having to confront their wrongdoing and waywardness. We all tell ourselves stories. They can’t look at themselves in the mirror if they don’t believe they care. That’s her story and she believes it. And nothing you can say or do would change that. It [censored]! Hang in their, man!
This is something I will handle with my family, when I feel it is appropriate. Today is not that day.
This is exactly the words you should have used with W. Firm and direct.
She just came to me and said this: "Today is our anniversary, and I know this is not the way we were planning on spending it, but I just want you to know that I do care."
Being detached enough to understand how to respond to these type of statements from women is important. Getting a high sexual market value attitude is part of that. Saying the unexpected. Behaving unexpected. A little shocking for her to hear. Has to be done in a very confident way, without any expectations from you.
H"Really? How about you show me how much you care." )
She just came to me and said this: "Today is our anniversary, and I know this is not the way we were planning on spending it, but I just want you to know that I do care."
Being detached enough to understand how to respond to these type of statements from women is important. Getting a high sexual market value attitude is part of that. Saying the unexpected. Behaving unexpected. A little shocking for her to hear. Has to be done in a very confident way, without any expectations from you.
H"Really? How about you show me how much you care." )
That's interesting. Perhaps I pull something like that out the next time I get that line from her. She seems to be following a stereotyped sort of script. On Father's Day, I got the same thing, but in written form: "I know you weren't planning on spending (insert name of special occasion here) like this, but I just want you to know I do care."
I am absolutely capable of saying something like what is under the spoiler without any hint of insecurity. Knowing her, it's very likely her response would be, "What do you mean?"
The statement under the spoiler could be interpreted a couple of ways. She could also interpret it as confrontational (as if I'm saying, "If you really cared, you wouldn't be seeking to end our marriage/break up our family.")
I am keeping an eye on the thread. I know I'll need to start another one around 100 posts.
W's surgery is today. Going to be a long procedure. Hoping for smooth sailing.
Graduation party for son yesterday was great. All seemed to have a good time. W treated my visiting sister and BIL well, but she did speak with my sister alone for a while. I hope she respected my wishes not to talk about our problems with her.
Last she updated me, she said that only her parents and brother knew. That is apparently out the window now, since I usually get at least a couple of anniversary messages from her other family members, and yesterday I got none. So presumably this has now spread to her entire family. And they will probably all be cheerleading for her to stick to her guns.
Marriages in my family are notoriously troubled. My parents didn't get along for most of theirs but stuck together anyway. Both were critically ill and hospitalized at the same time in April 2005, and I thought I was going to lose them both then. My mother pulled through, but my father did not. My older sister said that she told my father before he passed that my mom wasn't doing well, and he wept, after years of hardly speaking to her except to fight. My mother was so ill when my dad passed that we couldn't tell her until perhaps two months later. She also took it hard. "You have your differences, but..."
My older sister wasn't married too long when her husband divorced her for one of her coworkers, who was also her friend.
My sister who visited this weekend started her marriage with a hotheaded, very jealous husband who had a temper and who physically hit her due to imagined infidelities. (Think Robert De Niro in Raging Bull, if you've seen that movie). I wouldn't have blamed her for leaving him, and for a while I hoped she would. They worked everything out and have now been married for 32 years, with three grandchildren. BIL was, in fact, the life of the party yesterday.
Of all her children's spouses, I think my mom loved my W the best, and would have put money on us going the distance. If she were here, she might be surprised by which one endured, given the obstacles each faced.
I am absolutely capable of saying something like what is under the spoiler without any hint of insecurity. Knowing her, it's very likely her response would be, "What do you mean?"
That is not the response you are attempting to induce.
Misinterpretation with some innuendo while calling her on her BS statement, all while using your humor and not being too serious. Twinkle in your eye.
Closest behavior I can come up with is "Craig Ferguson flirting"...watch some of the Youtube analysis of his behavior.
While working on your personal growth, you can test all kinds of new behaviors. The new behaviors will most likely feel uncomfortable.
This is when you are the emotional rock while still being compassionate.
Just thought I’d throw this out there: does anyone have any novel suggestions on how to DB with a spouse that is homebound?
Assuming no complications emerge, W will be coming home from surgery tomorrow. Her parents will be here to help as much as possible but cannot be 24/7. Generally, whenever we are home together, I try to spend as much time as possible in another room. Not sure how effective that is, since one of her chief complaints was that I ignored her too much to begin with, but it’s all I’ve got. Much better to be out of the house, but other than when I’m at work that may not be possible for a while since there will be times she needs help.
Just thought I’d throw this out there: does anyone have any novel suggestions on how to DB with a spouse that is homebound?....W will be coming home from surgery tomorrow....
I think I would be direct.
H:"W, how can I help?" and take her at her word.
Rant warning. I apologize in advance but need to get it off my chest.
Had a bad night last night. Did not sleep well. Came home from work, W was home, her parents there. House was quiet; her mother was doing something on her phone.
I did a few things, came down to the kitchen, MIL said she didn't know I was home and then lit into me for not saying hi when I came in the door. I have had only one argument with this woman in the 25+ years I have known her. I apologized.
FIL was cordial but not as openly friendly as he has been. He bought me dinner, and I thanked him.
Upstairs later before bed, I could hear W and parents talking downstairs.
As I suspected, W did not keep confidence of our situation from my sister at S17's graduation party. Furthermore, she seems to have framed the narrative so that my sister sympathizes with her in leaving the M. The day of the party was also our anniversary. I usually get at least a couple of text messages from her family; I got none. So she has apparently told everyone and is in complete control of the narrative.
They discussed my involvement with the boys, and W continues to maintain it is lacking. She brought up my childhood and how my family was not close-knit. FIL said, "You would think he would have learned from that." She seems to be selling the story that I am repeating the parenting mistakes of my father, and her parents believe it.
She doesn't know what my childhood was like. My father was not hands on, very strict, intolerant of any opinions that didn't match his own, and hardly spoke to my mother except to fight. My mother actually sued him (with my sister's help) to get more support for the family when mom felt he was slacking off. It was ugly.
I am certainly not a perfect father. However, W used to praise my parenting, even to my mother when she was alive. I changed countless diapers, cleaned up vomit, took them to parks, took them to movies (even if I didn't care to see the movie myself). It is me who saw that they were fed and that S13 was driven back and forth while she was at her business events in the evenings recently. S13 had his first track season this spring, and I was at all three home meets. She attended one because (you guessed it) her side hustle called.
"I'll have a better schedule next year," she said. I am not sure how she knows that this early, unless she plans on curtailing work on her business.
"I do everything," she said. She apparently told my sister, "I have tried and tried." I am not sure what she means by that. She certainly didn't try to fix the M. Just lived with her grievances without airing them to me, until she said sayonara.
Oh, and something I should have mentioned previously but forgot: HER PARENTS GAVE US AN ANNIVERSARY GIFT (???!!!)
Seriously, I feel like I am living in crazy town. I am working early and staying at the office afterward to avoid dealing with her. Today she asked me when I would be home, and I said I am not sure. I am staying at the office and trying to maximize time away from the house because it's just not healthy there right now.
That sounds so tough to have overheard all of that. You must be fuming!
I’m sorry you’re being treated so badly and blamed for everything Sunflyer.
And please don’t apologise for venting at the board - that’s what it is here for.
The first thing you need to do, is not respond or do ANYTHING for 48 hours.
But do acknowledge the physiological and emotional things you are feeling. Increased heart rate, sweaty palms, increased respiration rate, over stimulated, angry and disgusted. Acknowledge those things, let them flow over you. But whatever you do, don’t let those primitive responses control how you act/behave. It’s going to take minimum 48 hours for some emotional water to flow under the bridge, so you need to make sure that happens first so that measured, controlled, objective, calm Sunflyer is making the decisions.
The next part may sound like I’m having a go at you, but I’m not … hear me out.
The problem here … is your expectations.
You’re expecting her to act in an honest, respectful, accountable and reasonable way. But she won’t. Walkaway spouses/wayward spouses never do. To expect them to do so is, well, a fool’s errand.
Imagine you walk down the street. You find 100 men or women who are currently forcing divorce on their shell-shocked, unagreeable spouse. Perhaps they’re having an affair, a mid-life crisis, have found toxic new friends or their unresolved mental health issues are rearing up.
Then you ask all 100 of those bomb-dropping walkaways/waywards whose fault the divorce is. How many do you think would say it’s their own fault? One? Perhaps two out of a hundred?
Those other 98 people - are going to squarely place the blame exclusively at their ex’s feet. Human nature is that we don’t want to take responsibility for our own decisions or unhappiness. It’s in society all around us. It’s the follow on effect of the last thirty years where everyone had to get a participation certificate instead of being told “you didn’t win.”
So here we are, in a society where people who initiate a separation or divorce don’t have the guts to say “I’m a cheat” or “I got bored” or “I consciously choose to renege on my vows.”
What you’re expecting of her Sunflyer - it’s NEVER going to happen. Let me give you a few more examples with how this plays out in modern society:
1. Gets speeding ticket - “Wasn’t fair, cop was waiting at the bottom of a hill” rather than “I chose to speed.”
2. Hits car in front - “The road was wet and these tyres are crap” rather than “I was tailgating too close.”
3. Loses employment - “They bullied me” rather than “I was lazy at work and kept arriving late despite several warnings.”
4. Working in crappy job - “I couldn’t afford a college education” rather than “I chose to party and booze my money away rather than go to college.”
This is our society, and it’s not going to change. If you expect good things from people, you’re always going to be disappointed. If you expect her to project, blame, lie and play victim - well life’s going to be a whole lot easier. And let’s face it, if she actually owned her part in all this, you probably wouldn’t be at this website, would you?
Here’s my story:
My ex-wife was allergic to employment. Every time she started a new job, she had to leave because “they were being cruel to her” or because she faked panic attacks. She told me I was working too much and didn’t help her enough at home, but when I cut my hours back, she blamed me because she had to cut her clothing spending back 😳 She “had to” text her ex boyfriend because it was my fault that she felt lonely when I had to go away with my job. But when I worked interstate, I wasn’t allowed to socialise with any female colleagues (controlling much?). She also told her friends I was a s*** husband because I did so much of the housework it made her feel lazy 🙄 It was my fault that lawyer fees cost her a fortune, even though she filed and refused mediation. It was my fault she had an affair with one of the Dad’s on my kid’s soccer team. It was also my fault when he dumped her after getting in her pants for a few months, because our divorce was stressful and so she wasn’t nice to be around. I lost my job for 18 months during COVID, so she forced sale of the family home to get her hands on the money. But then it was my fault she had to move into a rental. It was also my fault when she got kicked out of her rental for trashing it and not paying her rent (even though she had hundreds of thousands of dollars of mine from the settlement).
Do you see my point?
WAS/WS will nearly always play victim so they don’t have to face themselves or their friends and family over what they’ve done.
I guarantee you no matter what you say, do, exhibit or prove, she will absolutely play that narrative for years to come, if not her entire life.
Any attempt by you to hold her accountable and clear your own name will make her accuse you of being manipulative or controlling.
There is absolutely nothing you can do to change her narrative. The best thing for you to do is to let it go, and make your all your decisions based on what you know is the right thing to do - not on how she might frame things to others or how you imagine people may perceive you.
It’s probably the hardest part of being a LBS. But trust me, one day you just won’t care.
Good Morning SF
Heed Kind’s wise words. Definitely, give yourself 48 hours to settle before doing or saying something. Actions taken, decisions made, based upon emotions lead to regret.
As I suspected, W did not keep confidence of our situation from my sister at S17's graduation party. Furthermore, she seems to have framed the narrative so that my sister sympathizes with her in leaving the M.
She seems to be selling the story that I am repeating the parenting mistakes of my father, and her parents believe it.
"I do everything," she said. She apparently told my sister, "I have tried and tried."
These folks become master manipulators. Easily twisting their reality. Crafting their narrative to fit their wanted view. They will draw family members and friends into their world with these spun tales. They will promise to you - example not to tell your sister, and then do the opposite.
W is projecting upon you. She is blaming you. In fact, she’s likely the one repeating the ingrained parenting mistakes. All this, to further her feelings of justification for what she is choosing and doing/did.
Seriously, I feel like I am living in crazy town.
Yep. It’s a wild ride these folks are on. If we LBS stay on the rollercoaster we just get dizzy and nauseous! Step off the coaster, give her to God, let her traverse her wild ride, and look away from the train wreck.
I am working early and staying at the office afterward to avoid dealing with her. Today she asked me when I would be home, and I said I am not sure. I am staying at the office and trying to maximize time away from the house because it's just not healthy there right now.
It is really difficult to find one’s footing on how to “deal with” their errant spouse. SF, avoiding and ignoring are ok for short term strategies. Long term, you staying/hiding out at the office is equally unhealthy. Treat her as a roommate. Focus on you. Live (and love) your life.
D
...her mother was doing something on her phone.....then lit into me for not saying hi when I came in the door.
When you (blank)
I feel (blank)
If you (blank)
I will (blank)
These words and the blanks are typically difficult if we are not used to doing it. They become your friend after you start using them.
I have three or four different versions running through my head right now. Want to take a stab at filling in the blanks?
There is absolutely nothing you can do to change her narrative. The best thing for you to do is to let it go, and make your all your decisions based on what you know is the right thing to do - not on how she might frame things to others or how you imagine people may perceive you.
It’s probably the hardest part of being a LBS. But trust me, one day you just won’t care.
I understand. And I certainly did not interpret your comments as having a go at me at all.
I have good days and bad days. I don't show my frustration or anger in front of her at all, regardless of whether the day is "good" or "bad". I won't even mention the things I've overheard. When something happens that riles me up, I vent it here or find something else to do. That's on a "bad day."
I do imagine myself (usually on a "good day"), at some point in the future, looking back and saying, "Why was I so hung up on staying with her? I can do better than her."
...her mother was doing something on her phone.....then lit into me for not saying hi when I came in the door.
When you (blank)
I feel (blank)
If you (blank)
I will (blank)
These words and the blanks are typically difficult if we are not used to doing it. They become your friend after you start using them.
I have three or four different versions running through my head right now. Want to take a stab at filling in the blanks?
I might be a bit dense, but is this "I" statement intended to be a possible reply to something like my MIL said?