Stuck in limbo IV

[Doug54]

Link to last thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2936955#Post2936955

[Doug54]

My last post / update:

LH, you tend to check in for all the major holidays, don't you? grin

Thanksgiving was ok. W's brother and his family visited and everyone had a good time. W's mother had had a medical procedure around the end of October and wasn't able to make it (along with W's father) so most of the family made the out-of-town trek the next day to visit them. I planned to go as well since I've never had a problem with her parents, but I was getting a vibe that W was reluctant for me to go along. It felt like she was going out of her way to not make it overly apparent, that I *could* attend if I wanted to, but I figured what points could be won by forcing myself into close quarters with W for an overnight stay? We do have several pets that didn't have accommodations, so it was arguably convenient for me to remain home. As soon as W arrived at her parents', she texted me that her folks were wondering why I didn't come. Her father texted me a while later saying he was sorry I couldn't make it and hoped I would next time. (It's clear she's never breathed a syllable about marital discontent to her folks.)

I've always suspected that whomever W connected with (and conceivably continues to be sneaky on her phone with) was someone from her past. No concrete reason, just an assumption since they originally talked on Facebook Messenger and the replay phase of MLC can involve an attempted return to youth (uh, right?). Anyhow, I couldn't help myself and asked S14 after they returned if W had gone off on her own at any point during the visit. He told me that she hadn't and had been with the family the entire time.

I don't see any evidence that W is sneaking around locally in a full-blown EA/PA but I do think that would be a dealbreaker for me at this point if I were to find out.

W is getting her breast augmentation done in a few weeks. My stepdaughter is driving her to the place, a few hours away. W got a recommendation for the facility from a former college friend. From what I gather, she's financing the procedure. I'd probably be intrigued with the whole thing if the marriage were on firmer ground, but I'm less than enamored as it is. Whatever...nothing I can really do to stop it. W and I both get our paychecks deposited into the same joint account, and I haven't yet been inclined to split them apart. Divorce isn't on the front burner yet. Any thoughts on this?

Stepson 19 and S6 had birthdays on back-to-back days. I was the only one to get them gifts or a cake. W is still a good mom but she's wrapped in the selfish throes of MLC a fair amount of the time. To be fair, W was raised in a cult-ish church that didn't celebrate any holidays other than Thanksgiving, and her parents didn't make much of a fuss over birthdays, either. I typically took the lead on gift-giving during our marriage, even in the past, but I don't recall W completely sitting on the sidelines 100%.

I've probably regressed on fully GALing since the days have gotten shorter. I keep up with the gym and try to do as much with the kids as possible.

I have read a few threads on the board recently, despite not posting much. I got sucked into Gordie's tale and his wife's crazy behavior. I am terrible at not heeding Mach1's advice to not extrapolate too much from other posters' situations onto one's own. One person had written in Gordie's thread that their spouse had been an MLC wallower for two years before running and running. So now I'm convinced that's what's in store for me.

I try not to borrow tomorrow's trouble today, but I do wonder how to play it if W's mindset is to have sneaky fun on the side without blowing up the family (and filing herself). What if there's no movement on her part next summer but I'm tired of where the marriage is? Technically, neither of us can kick the other spouse out of the house. I feel like I need a sort of game plan to keep in the back of my head along with a potential drop-dead date. Does anyone think next summer is too soon for such a date? That would be about a year and a half hence the start of my situation. I also would want some sort of confirmation of the extent of W's waywardness, before fully nuking the kids' household.

I wonder about the seeming contrast between "a MLC has to run its course- there's nothing you can do to alter it" vs the tough-love approach advocated by Sandi and a few others. I definitely don't have the stomach for a years' long dead-ish marriage. My line of thinking is unquestionably colored by all I've read on these boards. For instance, W lifted my shirt and scratched my back after coming to bed three straight nights last week, something that hadn't happened in a long time. I enjoyed it but also chalked it up to some wayward wife strategy. My IC said it's important to try to appreciate the little things in the moment during this time. That's another reason I don't try to play defense when W initiates nookie.

Any thoughts on my situation are welcome as always. I apologize for not posting on other threads, but as you can see, I still don't really have my own house in order.

[marching]

Hi Doug54, I'm really sorry you're going through this. I am a newbie and while my situation is quite different from yours, I thought I'd share something I've read that might be relevant to your question re: how long to stand.

I've found Andrew G. Marshall's books really insightful. One of them is on MLC. In it, he says it's easy to miss the forest for the trees when caught up in day-to-day of MLC uncertainty. Like everyone else, he says MLC takes a lot of time. So, he asks spouses to think about the bigger picture: what is 3-4 years of slog in the context of a lifetime? if it could result in, say, 30 or 40 more happy years together? And, of course, if the couple has children, they will still be in each other's lives for many more years even if they get divorced, so time spent improving the relationship, regardless of the likelihood of reconciliation, is never wasted.

Obviously, it's up to each individual to decide how much time they want to give it. I myself am not sure I have 3-4 years in me for my own MLC spouse. But I found the reminder to think about the bigger picture helpful.

[marching]

Forgot to mention—he also says that in times of crisis, if there is no real, pressing need to make any decisions, then don't. Why do you need to decide on a drop-dead date? How would that help you in the present? Would it really change what you're doing right now? What if you considered a reevaluation date, instead?

[DnJ]

Good Morning Doug

I wonder about the seeming contrast between "a MLC has to run its course- there's nothing you can do to alter it" vs the tough-love approach advocated by Sandi and a few others. I definitely don't have the stomach for a years' long dead-ish marriage.

MLC does have to run its course. And yes, there is nothing you can do speed that up. However, you can definitely alter it - at best any attempts at manipulation will be neutral, the vast likelihood of a LBS’ attempts will be prolonging or even ceasing any forward progress of the MLCer’s journey.

The tough love approach will not wake them up. Any awakening will come from within them. For that is where the source of pain is living, and that is where the pain needs to resolve.

Nothing you do will matter. And yet, everything you do will.

A MLCer is confused and usually has the memory of a gnat. However, they will remember every little thing you did wrong or slighted them for or yelled or lost your temper. You get the idea. The more of that gets accumulated the more it gets used against you. By the way, if the MLCer doesn’t have enough ammo, they’ll just invent some anyhow, so don’t fret too much over past missteps.

Everything you do matters. And that applies more for you. After all, you are on a journey too. How and why you act and think and control and influence matters much more than merely what you did and do.

Have many on these forums ever felt like pulling the plug on their own situation? I dunno, I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those) but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting away the part of my life that misses female companionship. To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together. But we haven't done anything that could be called a date in ages. Not that I'm bringing that subject up. Am I supposed to wait around forever?

“I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those)…”.

Doug, MLC is horrible. Long ago unrealized trauma(s) have unknowingly reached up from a person’s depths and consumed them. Their emotional torment is incredible. Barely fathomable to us who have not experienced it. Imagine such pain that blowing up marriage, family, friends, job/career, etc, is the “best” course of action. They are driven to it.

MLCer’s emotions are cranked to eleven. They are confused and desperate. And desperate people do desperate things. Anything to ease their ceaseless torment. Running behaviours. Running away from themselves. Of course, wherever one runs, there they are.

“supposedly you can’t rush those”. That sounds a bit glib. I hope you appreciate how devastating such an emotional crisis actually is. We LBS get caught up in the collateral damage. LBS, kids, family, friends, etc, the radius of bomb drop is pretty large and there is much shrapnel flying about. Yet, for the one who dropped the bomb. Their damage is more.

“Am I supposed to wait around forever”. You should not “wait” your life away. How that looks to you. What that means to you. What values you will stand for. Those answers are discovered and lived by you.

Something to consider. The word “but”. That conjunction comes up in conversations usually as a way of justifying for what came before it. Be it spoken or not. In this particular case, you trying to justify pulling the plug and leaving.

Find your convictions and follow them. Be clear and accurate in thought and heart. Your mind is always listening and will make what you say reality. Speak well. You will, and do, craft your reality.

Been waiting for this one to pop up....


This isn't tit for tat here..

YOU burn every ounce of fuel that you have inside of you....every day, then you recharge and begin anew tomorrow...

Quitting now allows you to be a victim of her behavior. And that doesn't sound like you....

She carried this marriage on her back for how long ??

And you want to give up after a few months ?

I get what you're saying but I'm supposed to green-light EAs and W being emotionally distant because those interactions are being directed toward some other douche?

See what I mean about “but”?

It’s not about you green-lighting anything. You don’t control her. You only control you.

You control three things. That’s it. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions. And through those directly consciously controllable extensions of self, you influence everything else around and within you.

I get it Doug. You are in crucible right now. Stand. Remain. See why you would. See who you will become. Find the gemstone that is you, after all the rest is slag.

you define your stand, and what that stand means to you....

You define who you will become on the other side of this...and define who you are through this.

Truthfully ? Most 'guys' can't get past their own machoism and the perception that they need to get laid, and give up...

Looking in the mirror is too hard, and requires total honesty within themselves, something that has often been missing throughout their lives....

We define our vows, and what they mean to us, and who we want to be through them....

Better or worse...right ?

Fcuk man......anyone can do the 'better'....

It's the 'worse' that defines who we are...

Richer or poorer ?

Anyone can do the 'richer'

Who are you when you don't have two nickels to rub together ?

Sickness and health ??

Anyone can do 'health'

It's who you are when sickness invades you...

You DB because you choose to DB, and nobody else can define that for you...

What do your vows mean to you ??

F her man.....

YOU ??

Although you said them to her, they are for you, what you vowed to do regardless if she is sitting on your lap giving you a happy ending, or she is texting ILY to the f-ing garbage man...

It's your commitment TO her....no matter what....


So your choice....in or out..

You said you wanted in, yet I didn't believe your answer then, because you didn't believe it either...

Standing is YOUR choice....

Limbo is YOUR choice...

Loving her is YOUR choice...

We all start out standing. We stand for our spouse. We stand for our marriage. It is the default position. We are hurt and experiencing much grief. Bargaining is one of the stages of grief. It is the last grasp at trying to feel the old normal. Standing is our default.

Once we heal a bit. Become detached. Find indifference. Get through some grief. We get strong enough to stand down. This the point when standing truly starts. When one is healed and strong enough to stand down. Find your mettle. Test your mettle.

For better or worse. Yep, the present situation is on the worse side of that spectrum. Stand for you. Discover gemstone-Doug.

Indifference does roll back. Emotions that are currently muted will return. This time is a golden opportunity to do your inner work, without the noise and cacophony of W and your feelings.

A caution, nature abhors a vacuum, and other feelings will loom larger in contrast to that void. Make no major decisions. Ring no bells that cannot be un-rung. Feelings are fleeting, and indifference is temporary.

The basic principle of dealing with a spouse’s MLC is letting go. The MLCer is angry. They are projecting on to you, and blaming you for their pain. Realize the MLCer cannot handle their emotions right now. They cannot handle being at fault. So, with such torment, they look around, see their spouse, and poof, the LBS must be the cause. Such is the mixed up reasoning of an addled mind.

Give lots of time and space. Let W burn through her anger. At some point, hopefully, she’ll realize “hey, Doug hasn’t been around for a while AND I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps, he wasn’t to blame after all.” Then, with some good fortune, she would look inward and work on her issues.

You cannot speed up her journey. Give her God. Your path, if you choose, is to outlast it.

There are many positive signs in your situation.

Stay strong Doug.

D

[Doug54]

Hi Doug54, I'm really sorry you're going through this. I am a newbie and while my situation is quite different from yours, I thought I'd share something I've read that might be relevant to your question re: how long to stand.

I've found Andrew G. Marshall's books really insightful. One of them is on MLC. In it, he says it's easy to miss the forest for the trees when caught up in day-to-day of MLC uncertainty. Like everyone else, he says MLC takes a lot of time. So, he asks spouses to think about the bigger picture: what is 3-4 years of slog in the context of a lifetime? if it could result in, say, 30 or 40 more happy years together? And, of course, if the couple has children, they will still be in each other's lives for many more years even if they get divorced, so time spent improving the relationship, regardless of the likelihood of reconciliation, is never wasted.

Obviously, it's up to each individual to decide how much time they want to give it. I myself am not sure I have 3-4 years in me for my own MLC spouse. But I found the reminder to think about the bigger picture helpful.

Hey marching. Thanks for taking the time to weigh in, especially as a newcomer yourself. I appreciate the recommendation of Andrew Marshall. Would you say his book on MLC is worthwhile for the left behind spouse as well? The brief synopsis I found online seemed to indicate the book was geared toward the MLCer, almost like a how-to manual for getting through it.

I don't know how much of my situation you've read, but my wife will finish a degree program in June that will enable her to make a good deal more money than she currently is. In theory, we would have a realistic option for splitting up then. Whether or not that will come to pass, who knows.

If I had 100 percent certainty that my wife wasn't doing anything unfaithful, I think I could do multiple years of standing. However, I don't like having an ambiguous trust situation with my spouse, along with the concept of cake-eating. Right now, my wife seems to be, at a minimum, continuing to be involved with some guy on her phone. I don't know the full scope and duration, but she's had a passcode on it for quite some time. That's where my idea of the drop-dead date comes in, as suggested by some posters on this board. I'm sure I could cement a drop-dead date in my head today, write it down, etc. Whether I'd firmly stick to it upon its arrival...I dunno. It wouldn't be binding. But to formulate a date, I'd be saying "this is how much time I'm giving for this unfulfilling, hollow, and unfaithful marriage to turn around or I'm making a move."

Thanks again for offering your insight.

[Doug54]

DnJ-

Thanks for the voluminous response chock full of MLC info. In many regards, my wife seems to have a somewhat tame case of MLC. At least, she's not in full berserk mode like some of the situations I've read, particularly on another MLC-centric board. Or maybe those days are coming down the pike? Impossible to know. At the same time, she also doesn't seem to be in the mold of the "done and gone" walkaway wife.

The tough love approach will not wake them up. Any awakening will come from within them. For that is where the source of pain is living, and that is where the pain needs to resolve.

So, some people on the site advocate that the approach is the same whether MLC or wayward spouse. (Sandi, of course, is the patron saint for cracking down on the wayward and making them respect you.) Some also favor the alpha male tactic to "win back" respect. I can tell you that my wife would not respond to that. If anything, it would be a turnoff. Some of her venting involved telling me that I came off as arrogant to her at times in the relationship. I guess I'm saying that it is fruitful to know that MLC can't be arrested and I don't need to contort myself into a pretzel attempting to pitch a perfect game with strategy.

I get it Doug. You are in crucible right now. Stand. Remain. See why you would. See who you will become. Find the gemstone that is you, after all the rest is slag.

Nice use of the word. You ever read the play by Arthur Miller, by the way?

Give lots of time and space. Let W burn through her anger. At some point, hopefully, she’ll realize “hey, Doug hasn’t been around for a while AND I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps, he wasn’t to blame after all.” Then, with some good fortune, she would look inward and work on her issues.

This all sounds easy enough....minus the multiple years for MLC to play out part.

Really appreciate your insight, DnJ.

[Ready2Change]

Some also favor the alpha male tactic to "win back" respect. I can tell you that my wife would not respond to that. If anything, it would be a turnoff. Some of her venting involved telling me that I came off as arrogant to her at times in the relationship.

Obviously she knows you are beta. Becoming Alpha is the key.
I like the term Dominate, more than Alpha, but I feel the behaviors are the same and I use them interchangeably. It really isn't tactical. It is more a mind set on how you want to behave and be treated.

There are many areas we can improve our behaviors. One example, I behave in a way that makes my lady FEEL safe. That is one area that increases her level of attraction for me.

[DnJ]

Hello Doug

I had the same idea as you. Your W is more a milder MLCer, and does not quite fit the done and gone WAW. The latter especially leads credence to she is in emotional turmoil and searching for something. I think you’ve seen and even heard that from her.

So, some people on the site advocate that the approach is the same whether MLC or wayward spouse. (Sandi, of course, is the patron saint for cracking down on the wayward and making them respect you.) Some also favor the alpha male tactic to "win back" respect. I can tell you that my wife would not respond to that. If anything, it would be a turnoff. Some of her venting involved telling me that I came off as arrogant to her at times in the relationship. I guess I'm saying that it is fruitful to know that MLC can't be arrested and I don't need to contort myself into a pretzel attempting to pitch a perfect game with strategy.

I’m not a huge proponent to either of those strategies in particular. No one way is going to work for all situations. I’d even go so far as, no one way will work for even just one situation.

My idea is to be true to yourself. Of course, one has to discover themselves first. Discover their beliefs and values. We all have accumulated a lifetime of beliefs and prejudges and such. It’s kind of amazing when one really looks in the mirror.

Strengthen your beliefs that serve. Craft convictions you aspire to. And discard or alter that which does not serve.

Once you respect yourself, that man in the mirror, things fall into place.

The alpha male winning respect, tough love, may work. They may not. Each MLCer, each WAS, each person is different and responds differently. To me those kind of come across as manipulative and not true to oneself. Hey, that’s just me.

You know your situation best. You know W best. And you think she would respond poorly. You are then likely correct. Besides, if she did respond favourable to something you are not, how do you maintain such an “act”.

Focus on you. The only person in this whole equation you can control and directly affect. There is no need to pretzel yourself and find the winning strategy. I’ll tell you it plainly. The winning strategy is you. Be the best version of you.

Aspire to Doug54 version 2.0. Fix whatever you find within yourself that needs tweaking. Stand for your convictions. I guarantee you will be ok, and it gives you the best chance at your marriage. You will be ok. The marriage is a bonus.

That’s the focus. And in that shift, one becomes intriguing. One becomes attractive. One becomes desirable. Look, something attracted the two of you to each other. Perhaps that old love gets rediscovered once she gets herself sorted out. With MLC that could be awhile. Don’t pine and wait. Live your life. That doesn’t mean you got to date or move on or anything like that. Moving forward is what I’m a proponent of.

Doug, I’m six years post bomb drop. And I’m standing. Standing for me! Not XW. Not my gone marriage. Me! My values and beliefs and convictions.

I have peace and contentment. Four wonderful loving kids. Loving supportive parents. And strong friendships. When you live the life you’re meant to, you will know it. Life provides plenty of feedback.

You know, I think I read the Crucible in high school. Gosh, that’s a while ago.

This all sounds easy enough....minus the multiple years for MLC to play out part.

You ain’t playing a role in that train wreck. Step aside and let her do what she feels she needs to.

As for the “maybe” multiple years. The future is unwritten and unknown. Let it unfold on its own.

Time is a gift. Invest it well. Looking back at this over half decade - the MLC part was a blip. So many other things happened - vacations, learning to drive, boyfriends, girlfriends, first kiss, first break up, graduations, kids moving out, going to university and college, wedding, and of course retirement.

Have faith, slogging through the first bit of one’s journey is the hard part.

That's where my idea of the drop-dead date comes in, as suggested by some posters on this board. I'm sure I could cement a drop-dead date in my head today, write it down, etc. Whether I'd firmly stick to it upon its arrival...I dunno. It wouldn't be binding. But to formulate a date, I'd be saying "this is how much time I'm giving for this unfulfilling, hollow, and unfaithful marriage to turn around or I'm making a move."

Hope.

Where there is love, there is hope.

Hope is desire.

Expectations are desires with timelines or deadlines attached. And a deadline does just that, makes it dead. Nothing kills hope quicker than a deadline.

Unmet expectations build resentment. Keep expectations dialled to zero. Keep hope alive.

Hope is timeless. Hope is an incredible wellspring of strength and fortitude.

I’d not set a date. Base your decisions upon other than a square box on a calendar. Find out how much you can carry. How much you can let go. And just how strong your convictions truly are. I bet you’ll be amazed at what you’re capable of.

D

[Kind18]

I don't know how much of my situation you've read, but my wife will finish a degree program in June that will enable her to make a good deal more money than she currently is. In theory, we would have a realistic option for splitting up then. Whether or not that will come to pass, who knows.

I can’t stress this enough - do not initiate divorce yet.

You need to wait it out. Let her text OM, let her simmer away…. But don’t push her, set ultimatums or lose control of your emotions.

You need to wait until she has finished her degree in June. And then go out of your way to help get her a well paid, full time job.

Once that’s done, then you can consider pulling the rip cord.

I don’t know what country you’re in, but regardless, if you wait until she has a degree and well paid job - you could be hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars better off in a financial divorce settlement.

[marching]

Would you say his book on MLC is worthwhile for the left behind spouse as well? The brief synopsis I found online seemed to indicate the book was geared toward the MLCer, almost like a how-to manual for getting through it.

Yes, about 60% of it is for the MLCer, but it's also helpful for the LBS to read to get a sense of what MLC is about. 40% is specifically for the LBS, including some useful responses for things that MLCers say and tips on how to maintain your sanity. I found his website helpful, too.

I'm sure I could cement a drop-dead date in my head today, write it down, etc. Whether I'd firmly stick to it upon its arrival...I dunno. It wouldn't be binding. But to formulate a date, I'd be saying "this is how much time I'm giving for this unfulfilling, hollow, and unfaithful marriage to turn around or I'm making a move."

I completely sympathize the desire to set this date. It helps give a sense of control in a shitty situation. I sort of have one too, but more so to check in with myself. If yours wouldn't be binding and wouldn't be tied to any drastic action, I don't see the problem with setting one if it would provide some relief. (Sounds more like a "set it and forget it" kind of thing.)

I skimmed your previous thread, so I might have missed it (in which case, I'm sorry), but might some of your W's behavior might have something to do with her program? I imagine it must be tough to be a student and parent at the same time. My friends in grad school have neglected their relationships and done questionable things because of the stress. Perhaps your W will feel differently and be more dedicated to your M once she graduates. As others have already said, who knows what could happen between now and June.

[DW17]

I have read a few threads on the board recently, despite not posting much. I got sucked into Gordie's tale and his wife's crazy behavior. I am terrible at not heeding Mach1's advice to not extrapolate too much from other posters' situations onto one's own. One person had written in Gordie's thread that their spouse had been an MLC wallower for two years before running and running. So now I'm convinced that's what's in store for me.

I’ve been going through Gordie’s thread as well and I had the same reaction. I don’t know if I could wait it out as long as he did. I’m trying not to project that to my own situation, but it left me feeling like I needed to pull the plug. After a few days of anger and reflection, those thoughts subsided a bit, but left me feeling indifferent about my W. Not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but it’s something.

I try not to borrow tomorrow's trouble today, but I do wonder how to play it if W's mindset is to have sneaky fun on the side without blowing up the family (and filing herself). What if there's no movement on her part next summer but I'm tired of where the marriage is? Technically, neither of us can kick the other spouse out of the house. I feel like I need a sort of game plan to keep in the back of my head along with a potential drop-dead date. Does anyone think next summer is too soon for such a date? That would be about a year and a half hence the start of my situation. I also would want some sort of confirmation of the extent of W's waywardness, before fully nuking the kids' household.

My W seems to be in a very similar place to yours. Doing nothing to push the separation forward (She halfway filled out some paperwork and told me to complete it weeks ago and has said nothing since), we still live together although she sleeps downstairs now, and I’m worried that she won’t make any attempts to move things forward unless I do something to really upset her. I set a drop dead date of next June, which would be about a year from BD. But it does seem a bit weird to set a date without knowing how things will be at that point. If things are a little better, do you still file for D on that date? If they are the same, then what? What if things get way worse before that? What if I spend a bunch of time thinking about it and W files next week? Waiting forever doesn’t make sense, but making decisions 6 months ahead of time doesn’t really seem to either. Hell, six months ago I barely had a clue there was a problem! I guess it’s about just being prepared for the worst while taking the rest day by day.

Some also favor the alpha male tactic to "win back" respect.

.I’ve thought a lot about the alpha male tactic because I’m pretty beta in many areas of my life, such as making decisions, planning things, reaching out to people, being social and addressing conflict. I know I can’t change my personality into the stereotypical alpha male, so my focus has been more to address my passive behaviors and try and change those things for myself. I think the term alpha is interpreted differently by each person here, but for me I’ve just tried to define it as sticking up for myself and being less of a yes man. Having conviction in what I say and do if I know it’s the right thing. Being more of a decision maker and taking the lead with things. It’s a work in progress, but that’s where I’ve focused my efforts.

Also, DnJ, I appreciate the input you provided here. I had intended to post something similar as Doug the other day on my thread, but you and the other people who replied here, pretty much addressed all of the things I was thinking about. Most of the questions stemmed from reading Gordie’s thread, which had me feeling a little down.

[LH19]

I know I can’t change my personality into the stereotypical alpha male, so my focus has been more to address my passive behaviors and try and change those things for myself.

I think the stereotypical definition is way off base and most people misunderstand what is to be an "alpha male". I am going to give you the best definition I have come across and you tell me whether you think it is a goal you can work towards.

A true alpha’s state of mind is one of indifference, charm, humor, humility, courage and a belief that eventually, things will work out in their favor. Alphas set, keep and hold other people accountable to their boundaries. They stand up for what they believe in and don’t compromise their principles or values for ANYONE. They have an emotionally compelling vision of what kind of life and lifestyle they want to create and then resolve to pay the price, no matter how long it takes to make it a reality.”

Most of the questions stemmed from reading Gordie’s thread, which had me feeling a little down.

Why does Gordie's thread have you feeling down?

[DW17]

LH19 - I like that definition. That fits what I'm striving for much better than the definition I believe most people associate with being an alpha male. And I haven't finished Gordie's thread, I'm only on #20, but just the amount of garbage he dealt with and the length of time just reinforced the "marathon, not a sprint" phrase that is said so often here. There's no quick fix and it's a little bit of a downer seeing that. It made me question whether I can wait it out that long if need be.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread Doug54. Keep pushing ahead man!

[LH19]

I wonder about the seeming contrast between "a MLC has to run its course- there's nothing you can do to alter it" vs the tough-love approach advocated by Sandi and a few others.

If you were going to institute a tough love approach what would it look like?

I definitely don't have the stomach for a years' long dead-ish marriage.

Doug this is absolutely a multiple year process.

That's another reason I don't try to play defense when W initiates nookie.

What are the other reasons?

Any thoughts on my situation are welcome as always.

Sorry I was late on my response I was on vacation.

[LH19]

LH19 - I like that definition. That fits what I'm striving for much better than the definition I believe most people associate with being an alpha male. And I haven't finished Gordie's thread, I'm only on #20, but just the amount of garbage he dealt with and the length of time just reinforced the "marathon, not a sprint" phrase that is said so often here. There's no quick fix and it's a little bit of a downer seeing that. It made me question whether I can wait it out that long if need be. !

DW I’m glad you like that version of the definition of alpha male. I think you should print it out and read it daily and use it as a guide moving forward.

As far as when we say marathon and not sprint I do not think that people truly understand how long this takes to play itself out.

[Doug54]

I think the stereotypical definition is way off base and most people misunderstand what is to be an "alpha male". I am going to give you the best definition I have come across and you tell me whether you think it is a goal you can work towards.

A true alpha’s state of mind is one of indifference, charm, humor, humility, courage and a belief that eventually, things will work out in their favor. Alphas set, keep and hold other people accountable to their boundaries. They stand up for what they believe in and don’t compromise their principles or values for ANYONE. They have an emotionally compelling vision of what kind of life and lifestyle they want to create and then resolve to pay the price, no matter how long it takes to make it a reality.”

That's a good definition that goes beyond the simple, meathead image I would typically connect with "alpha."

[Doug54]

If you were going to institute a tough love approach what would it look like?

I'm honestly not sure. Like you've said in the past, there's a large incentive to keep the peace when two people live together, with family, etc. Also like you've said, this is going to work itself out one way or another.

Doug this is absolutely a multiple year process.

Lovely. Did I mention that W is getting the boob job in 2 weeks? Perhaps I'll find that my W is indeed a slow, methodical creature like yours was. I would be shocked and disgusted if she wound up leaving straight for another man. If she couldn't resist wanting out due to the MLC, craving independence and wanting to stand on her own, I guess I could at least sort of understand a tad.

What are the other reasons?

I mean, we're not divorced yet and I'm not getting anything on the side (which would be blatantly stupid for a guy posting on an anti-divorce forum). If W wants to initiate, it just proves that I'm not a monster, right?

[LH19]

I think the stereotypical definition is way off base and most people misunderstand what is to be an "alpha male". I am going to give you the best definition I have come across and you tell me whether you think it is a goal you can work towards.

A true alpha’s state of mind is one of indifference, charm, humor, humility, courage and a belief that eventually, things will work out in their favor. Alphas set, keep and hold other people accountable to their boundaries. They stand up for what they believe in and don’t compromise their principles or values for ANYONE. They have an emotionally compelling vision of what kind of life and lifestyle they want to create and then resolve to pay the price, no matter how long it takes to make it a reality.”

That's a good definition that goes beyond the simple, meathead image I would typically connect with "alpha."

So are you setting and holding W accountable to your boundaries? Are you compromising your principles or values to her? These are questions to ponder.

[LH19]

If you were going to institute a tough love approach what would it look like?

I'm honestly not sure. Like you've said in the past, there's a large incentive to keep the peace when two people live together, with family, etc. Also like you've said, this is going to work itself out one way or another.

Doug this is absolutely a multiple year process.

Lovely. Did I mention that W is getting the boob job in 2 weeks? Perhaps I'll find that my W is indeed a slow, methodical creature like yours was. I would be shocked and disgusted if she wound up leaving straight for another man. If she couldn't resist wanting out due to the MLC, craving independence and wanting to stand on her own, I guess I could at least sort of understand a tad.

What are the other reasons?

I mean, we're not divorced yet and I'm not getting anything on the side (which would be blatantly stupid for a guy posting on an anti-divorce forum). If W wants to initiate, it just proves that I'm not a monster, right?

When I said there is a large incentive to keep the peace I meant that’s what got you here. You and her glossed over things in your relationship while the resentment built. For a relationship to be successful you have to have it out every once in awhile and address the issues. Than decide if you can fix these issues. If you can’t come to an agreement you have to be willing to walk. Yes she will either commit back to the marriage, things will remain the same or you will divorce.

Yep and she ain’t getting the girls done for you. Sorry to say but deep down I think you know it. Does your w seem like the independent type?

Yeah I’m cool with you getting your freak on as long as you know it’s not helping matters. I did it because I knew I was getting a D.

Doug you are young have young kids so no shame in riding it out. Unfortunately things will have to get worse before they get better that is the $ucky part of this process.

[BL42]

Lovely. Did I mention that W is getting the boob job in 2 weeks? Perhaps I'll find that my W is indeed a slow, methodical creature like yours was. I would be shocked and disgusted if she wound up leaving straight for another man.

Yep and she ain’t getting the girls done for you. Sorry to say but deep down I think you know it. Does your w seem like the independent type?

Bingo. She is NOT doing it for you Doug54. Sorry man.

If you don't want to pay for those only to have her leave make sure to consult an L.

LH...did you ever get refunded your half?

[LH19]

No but I get one every other weekend lol.

[BL42]

No but I get one every other weekend lol.

Your L negotiated one heck of a custody agreement! LOL

[Ready2Change]

Lovely. Did I mention that W is getting the boob job in 2 weeks?

Make sure that goes on her half of the balance sheet...OR...not sure how much a BOOB JOB costs, but you might need a new motorcycle that is in the same price range.


Listen, I caught my X cashing out retirement funds before the divorce....Make sure you are not getting the short end of the stick.

[SteveLW]

Lovely. Did I mention that W is getting the boob job in 2 weeks?

Make sure that goes on her half of the balance sheet...OR...not sure how much a BOOB JOB costs, but you might need a new motorcycle that is in the same price range.


Listen, I caught my X cashing out retirement funds before the divorce....Make sure you are not getting the short end of the stick.

And when it comes to these things, consult an attorney. STAT!

[LH19]

Doug,

How was Christmas?

How are the new set of twins in your family?

[Doug54]

Doug,

How was Christmas?

How are the new set of twins in your family?

Hey LH. Yes, W got the breast augmentation shortly before Christmas. I'm glad for your words of wisdom about wayward wives being slow and methodical creatures. She's definitely in the replay phase of MLC - went out tonight with two divorced friends to see a band. And so it begins! I'm going out myself to a club with a DJ along with some friends, so there's that.

Christmas went well. W literally bought one gift for one of our children and I did all the rest. I'm willing to give her a partial pass since Christmas wasn't part of her upbringing and she knew I was going to handle most of the kid stuff, but dang. She's mailing it in sometimes. I say it went well because we still did our normal visits with my parents and some extended family, even though there's some friction there between W and my folks. Everyone played their part well for the kids, though, and it was a good day.

W and I have been around each other a fair amount during the holidays. Our interactions have been mostly good but my detachment has taken a step back. There was one day when my parents had the kids out for quite a while and W and I went for a walk like old times and had nookie twice. I don't really like the selfish person she's become, though. And my ego still gets in the way of having a complete attitude of "who cares what W is up to?" I still struggle internally with a mindset of "As long as you're living in the house and we're not divorced or separated, it's not ok that you're effing around, up to no good on your phone or whatever else." I don't say that but it permeates my thoughts at times. Sandi said it best to another poster a while back - "She wants to feel free and you are treating her like she is still your W...which she is, but she doesn't want to feel like she is your W. That is the point. She wants to be free and she doesn't want you controlling her life."

No idea if the above situation was a separation or still living together. LH, I try to keep in mind your line about "Do you want to be wondering one day, 'what if I'd only given W a little more time to figure things out...?'"

I forgot to mention that I did open a separate bank account for myself. We still have the joint account but I wanted to get the ball rolling with having something only I can access if needed. My paycheck isn't yet linked to this account.

What should I do if this summer comes, W gets a better job, but doesn't seem keen on moving out? We are both on the mortgage.

[LH19]

Yo Mach Happy New Year buddy.

Yikes separate nights out on New Years Eve. Nothing like being in a club at middle age lol but I applaud you for trying.

So I want to make it clear that I don’t think it’s ok if/that your W is screwing around. The goal is to get to a place that it’s unacceptable to you. My point is that until you are there you don’t focus on it you put the focus on your kids.

IMO if you keep status quo she’s probably going to bide her time while she’s planning her exit strategy doing the bare minimum. This may take years.

As for the separate accounts I’m not sure that matters.

What is the issue between W and parents?

[Doug54]

Yo Mach Happy New Year buddy.

Yikes separate nights out on New Years Eve. Nothing like being in a club at middle age lol but I applaud you for trying.

So I want to make it clear that I don’t think it’s ok if/that your W is screwing around. The goal is to get to a place that it’s unacceptable to you. My point is that until you are there you don’t focus on it you put the focus on your kids.

IMO if you keep status quo she’s probably going to bide her time while she’s planning her exit strategy doing the bare minimum. This may take years.

As for the separate accounts I’m not sure that matters.

What is the issue between W and parents?

Thanks for your thoughts, LH. What do you mean by getting to a place where the screwing around is unacceptable? It's not ok as it is, other than I don't know the depth or what distinct moves to make short of moving out myself.

The other thing is, I don't know if I could fully arrest whatever is going on other than perhaps driving it further underground. The sum of all the parts pretty clearly points to MLC, in my opinion...the focus on herself, slipping a little as a mom and homemaker, lamenting lack of career success, wanting to slow the progression of age, reading self-help books, etc. I don't think there's any allegiance to an AP in particular, though there's something playing out, EA or whatnot.

I know the textbook response - focus on myself and the kids. I just feel like I've slipped some and want to see some forward motion or moves to make. I doubt there are really any - this has to play out, right? I've actually read quite a few books recently -

How to Be a 3% Man
No More Mr Nice Guy
The Rational Male
The Solo Partner
Your Marriage Can Survive Midlife Crisis (Jim & Sally Conway)

All were informative to some degree - some better than others.

What would you suggest I do to not keep the "status quo"?

[LH19]

So Doug not Mach lol guess I was shaking off the cobwebs, I’m on the other side. I already know my kids are alright. I already know it’s great being with a woman who apologizes for texting in my presence and what the text is for. I know what it’s like to have a woman want to celebrate holidays with me. I also know what it was like to come home and the first thing I looked for was my exws phone to see if it was on the charger. Did she take it in the bathroom? Every time it dinged my anxiety went up.

So one of the key things I learned in 3% man is you don’t get what you deserve in life you get what you negotiate. Everything in life is negotiable. When something does not work for you in life you have to be willing to walk away from it if your terms or acceptable terms are not met.

As far as moves there are no moves. There is no silver bullet. Things are probably going to have to get worse before they get better.

Remember female MLC runs from 7-10 years not 7-10 months.

If you want to shake up the status quo maybe you take cake/sex off the table?

[Rockon]

So Doug, I’m a rookie figuring this out too with benefit of questions and guidance from the vets. What if anything are you doing now that legitimizes or placates your W treating you poorly and/or being unfaithful? And if there is anything in that category, is there anything you want to change about yourself to disrupt that dynamic protection yourself and your kids? Rooting for you man

Rock n roll

[BL42]

As for the separate accounts I’m not sure that matters.

Talk to an L, but likely the money is still marital property if no legal action has been taken. Where it would matter is it shields her from the funds so she can't access it to take a huge withdraw or make a big purchase - he controls it.

[BL42]

Doug54,

I'm going out myself to a club with a DJ along with some friends, so there's that.

Yikes separate nights out on New Years Eve. Nothing like being in a club at middle age lol but I applaud you for trying.

How'd it go at the club last night?

Christmas went well. W literally bought one gift for one of our children and I did all the rest. I'm willing to give her a partial pass since Christmas wasn't part of her upbringing and she knew I was going to handle most of the kid stuff, but dang. She's mailing it in sometimes.

It's not fair, but continue to pick up her slack when it comes to the kids - it's not their fault.

There was one day when my parents had the kids out for quite a while and W and I went for a walk like old times and had nookie twice.

If you want to shake up the status quo maybe you take cake/sex off the table?

Curious how these situations arise considering the situations. I've read on here some people continue having sex for awhile, but mine was not one of them - not even close to anything physical (hug, kiss...whatever) after BD.

To me you have to go into it honestly knowing it might not mean much and you just enjoy the physical act, which is probably easier said than done when you're the one who wants to keep the marriage/family together. If it's hurting your detachment it may not be helpful.

Sandi said it best to another poster a while back - "She wants to feel free and you are treating her like she is still your W...which she is, but she doesn't want to feel like she is your W. That is the point. She wants to be free and she doesn't want you controlling her life."

Yep - they're all striving to be "free" of their problems/unhappiness and believe it's you, when more often it's them.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Doug

I still struggle internally with a mindset of "As long as you're living in the house and we're not divorced or separated, it's not ok that you're effing around, up to no good on your phone or whatever else." I don't say that but it permeates my thoughts at times.

I understand your struggle with her behaviour. You cannot control what she does.

And my ego still gets in the way of having a complete attitude of "who cares what W is up to?"

A few thoughts for you.

It’s not about being non-caring. I still care what XW is up to (at times). It’s that those thoughts don’t drag me around; don’t limit my life, behaviour, or actions; nor do those thoughts or her behaviours define me.

It’s about accepting. And as you see, ego plays a part in that struggle. “It’s not ok that you’re effing around…”, yep true. And what can you do about it? Can you prevent it? Nope. Can you force her to not? Nope. Can you influence her? Maybe. Can you alter yourself? Find peace? Yes.

You can care what she is doing, and let go.

Ego. Telling yourself “it’s not ok”, is judging her. And that reinforces your emotions. Drags you around. Let that go. It’s for God to judge her, not you.

How to let go? Realize, yes it is not ok, or wanted, or proper, or right, etc, for a married women to behave that way. (You got that step. We all get that step pretty fast.)

Then, understand her behaviour/running. Realize why (more or less). That brings about compassion and empathy. I think you are doing well in this as well.

All this allows one to let go their self need to be right, to control. To put aside their ego, even just temporarily, until being nonjudgemental becomes a core value, a belief. You likely have some inclination of the trauma(s) W suffered in her early years. Not an excuse for her, however a reason to find acceptance and forgiveness. Ask yourself, if you suffered the same, where would you’ve ended up? Fate, luck, whatever it is, you and I are on paths different than our respective spouse’s. Realize how blessed that is. Rather humbling. And should highlight the influence of one’e ego upon one’s perception.

Acceptance and forgiveness. Accepting does not mean condoning. Condoning is ignoring something morally wrong or offensive, to allow its continuation. From a few steps up, you realize the immorality of it, and you realize you cannot prevent it. You are not ignoring and allowing, for the continuation is solely up to W. That’s acceptance in a nutshell.

Forgiving is completely upon you. Nothing W can do will earn her forgiveness, in so much as you need to see some behaviour or hear some words before bestowing your forgiveness. That’s not how forgiveness works. In fact, you likely won’t (and probably shouldn’t) ever even tell her. You find it within yourself to let go the grudge and write paid in full upon the bill, and your actions will display such.

Your path is to place your focus elsewhere, a good place is upon yourself and kids; to live and love your life; and give W time and space. That doesn’t mean ignore W, more just let her to her path and journey, while you traverse your’s.

Fortunately, your two paths still interact. Becoming the best version of yourself, is awesome for you, and maximizes your chances of reconciling.

Have a great day Doug.

D

[Doug54]

As for the separate accounts I’m not sure that matters.

Talk to an L, but likely the money is still marital property if no legal action has been taken. Where it would matter is it shields her from the funds so she can't access it to take a huge withdraw or make a big purchase - he controls it.

Yes, this was the thought.

[Doug54]

Curious how these situations arise considering the situations. I've read on here some people continue having sex for awhile, but mine was not one of them - not even close to anything physical (hug, kiss...whatever) after BD.

To me you have to go into it honestly knowing it might not mean much and you just enjoy the physical act, which is probably easier said than done when you're the one who wants to keep the marriage/family together. If it's hurting your detachment it may not be helpful.

I look at it like this, for now, in my own situation:

*I try not to initiate and let W be the one to do that if she wants to. That might not mean a whole lot more than, in my own head, I'm not coming off as needy.

*My IC has said it's important to try to enjoy the small things that are still there, when they arise, and not harp on strategy and larger implications at that moment.

*W and I generally don't touch or make contact during the day. I doubt she'd recoil if I tried but I mostly don't feel like it. However, at the end of the night, we make some form of contact lying in bed together 99 percent of the time. Sometimes she'll scratch my back, reach over to touch my shoulder, etc. I hate to say it, but during those moments, before going to sleep, the stresses of life and the marriage melt away and everything is ok.

[Doug54]

A few thoughts for you.

Deej - Really appreciate your insights. You had one of the all-time infamously bad bomb drops and yet seem like the most grounded, glass-is-half-full fella in the universe. I only wish I had .0001% of the compassion, empathy, and humility that you possess.

I also struggle with some of the wisdom of hard-liners on this site compared to what you espouse. For instance, it wouldn't be an alpha move to realize that W may be struggling with her MLC. I don't even know if she's "struggling" at the moment - she seems happy with the replay phase, new fake boobs, and going out like a college kid (last night at least).

Fortunately, your two paths still interact. Becoming the best version of yourself, is awesome for you, and maximizes your chances of reconciling.

I've always wondered about this. MWD and Sandi, among others, seemed to think remaining under the same roof provided the best chance at working things out. However, this doesn't provide a chance for people to see whether or not they miss their partner.

[Ready2Change]

I've always wondered about this. MWD and Sandi, among others, seemed to think remaining under the same roof provided the best chance at working things out. However, this doesn't provide a chance for people to see whether or not they miss their partner.

It all depends on how much GAL you are doing.

The goal is to get to a place that it’s unacceptable to you.

This is key.

Your behavior and what actions you take is also key.

You have to do the work and blend up all the different things that have worked for the rest of us and come up with your plan. Then execute the plan.

[BL42]

Doug54,

However, at the end of the night, we make some form of contact lying in bed together 99 percent of the time. Sometimes she'll scratch my back, reach over to touch my shoulder, etc.

So much different than my situation it's hard for me to relate. Not saying it's good or bad - others more experienced with this behavior can probably give better feedback.

I hate to say it, but during those moments, before going to sleep, the stresses of life and the marriage melt away and everything is ok.

I completely understand you feeling that way, but that's what also makes me concerned about it. You feeling relieved and at peace because of these moments with your W seems like the opposite of detachment. Just know you may be setting yourself up for a harder crash if the next bomb drops. Sounds like you recognize that when you preface the statement with "I hate to say it".

[LH19]

So actually Sandi was against IHS and would always say she can’t remember a time that it worked.

I’m not a fan of it especially when there is an open affair but like R2C said it depends on your GAL.

[Rockon]

D J this Carries a lot of learning that resonates for me. A challenge

[DnJ]

Hello Doug

I also struggle with some of the wisdom of hard-liners on this site compared to what you espouse. For instance, it wouldn't be an alpha move to realize that W may be struggling with her MLC. I don't even know if she's "struggling" at the moment - she seems happy with the replay phase, new fake boobs, and going out like a college kid (last night at least).

Alpha males are intelligent, confident, and successful. They usually make great leaders, and prefer and seek positions of power. A sigma male has similar traits, with being more a loner and having a less dominating leadership style, they lead without exerting authority. And they stay outside the social hierarchy.

For me, someone successful usually has a good capacity for noticing others, and a high decree of emotional intelligence (compassion and empathy). And great leaders, lead from the back of the pack. They put their best fighters at the front, while they stay in the back to ensure the pace won’t lose anyone, and to help those who struggle. In my view, noticing and realizing W’s struggles would be a most sigma (alpha-ish) trait.

The other half of that mindset, is the confidence to let go and move forward. This action phase seems to get the most attention and encouragement, with the underlying compassion being overlooked or put aside. Yet, the underpinnings of why, need to be understood for one to find their way, and embrace it.

For what it’s worth, W is going to appear like her life is going great. Happy with her new life and behaviours, new augmentations, new friends, etc. She will expend tremendous energies maintaining her fantasy/reality. She has to. Yet, in the still darkness of night, when she is still and at rest, her demons will come out, and she will struggle.

…remaining under the same roof provided the best chance at working things out. However, this doesn't provide a chance for people to see whether or not they miss their partner.

“Missing their partner” is more an emotional thing than a physical thing. The idea is letting them feel what it is like to lose you. Not see what it is like.

Kind, cordial, being a roommate, and so on. All good ideas. However, no one strategy or method works in every situation or even within one situation. One of the great strengths of this board is the various viewpoints from all kinds of different situations. At times, most times, you will focus on you, detach, be more a roommate. At other times, you will offer or partake in family activities - like getting a Christmas tree for example. And other times it’s a hard line approach. In house separation can allow time and space, and yet still allow some connection. IHS is difficult, and if done well I believe will yield one’s best chance.

D

[Doug54]

Thanks for the words of wisdom, DnJ. Your advice and insight are like a salve soothing a burn. Admittedly, I backslid a little and snooped around recently. I saw that W had paid for some online sex course thing and confronted her about it. Definitely not adhering to DB principles, obviously. She gave some excuse about how it was recommended to her, female empowerment, blah blah.

I know snooping around isn't generally recommended, but didn't SteveLW say "trust but verify"?

Here is a brief recap of my situation:

-August 2019: stepdaughter goes away to college. W cries on the drive home after we move her in. In hindsight, I'm wondering if this was a kickoff point for W's MLC.

-March 2020: Covid. Everyone is home. I don't necessarily remember more stress in our particular household, but there seems to be plenty of literature about Covid / lockdowns straining relationships.

-November 2021: W asks me to help fix her laptop and flies across the kitchen to grab it away when a Facebook Messenger window pops up. Everything happened too quickly for me to read anything. Lots of arguing about it that day.

-December 2021: we take a trip as a couple right before New Year's. Everything seems fine.

-February-ish to March/April 2022: W seems to be growing distant and starts seeing a counselor in March. This turned out to be largely an attempt at painting me as a bad husband / "narcissist" and more or less legitimizing her EA and possibly PA. The "bomb drop" came in the form of me pressing her about what was going on. There was a reference to how it might just be a phase she was going through and she didn't "feel the same" towards me. (insert eye roll emoji)

-May to July 2022: probably the height of "going through the motions" in the household. There were still bedroom relations but almost all talk was limited to kid-related stuff. We do three ill-advised joint counseling sessions and a "keeping up appearances" summer trip with the kids. Before this past week, the last time I snooped around was I believe the end of July.

-August to November 2022: I try to apply DB principles and adopt that mindset for the most part. No snooping around, which I feel helps my mental state, but in doing so, I guess I was burying my head in the sand. W pulls back on going to her counselor and no talk of divorce or splitting up. Some ups and downs in there, I'm sure (going by memory here). I largely stabilize at work with not thinking about the marriage situation all the time.

-December 2022: Mostly a good month. W seems a little less guarded with her phone and even shows me a few things on it, lets son play on it. Probably a mirage. W increases non-sexual touch at bedtime (in addition to sexual touch at times)- back scratches, etc. which had been absent for quite a while. General conversation is almost about normal. We talk about things other than just the kids. W goes to get breast augmentation procedure, texting me often and "after" photos. W vents about my parents increasingly, a frequent source of conflict. I try to validate but once or twice make an offhand comment like "Why do you care about them so much? It's not going to matter before too long" (a reference to splitting up).

-Late December: discover the sex site online course thing. Open separate bank account the next day. See that W had messaged her counselor about it, venting. Also in there:

W: "I feel guilty and awful now, I mean, it is because of things I'm doing"
Counselor: "Don't know what to tell you about that"
W: "It's all jealousy and wants to punish me"
W: "But he'll go along just fine without a care in the world and then suddenly decides to fixate on me doing something. Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive."

(No further reply from counselor). That reference to me "going along just fine" is obviously where I'm trying to DB and not act controlling. So anyway - extremely long-winded recap of where not snooping might get you - obliviousness.

[LH19]

Ok I missed the sex site online course thing. Can you explain more?

BTW she’s gaslighting you in the text with counselor.

[Ready2Change]

Thanks for the recap. It helps me keep your sitch from blending with everyones.

I know snooping around isn't generally recommended, but didn't SteveLW say "trust but verify"?

Most people can't emotionally handle what they find, that is why once you know what is going on, stop.

It then comes down to a trust issue and all the deception. Most do not address it correctly. Either over react emotionally or put their head in the sand.

[LH19]

Doug I think you are cherry picking information to try to incorporate it into your sitch based on your current agenda.

So SteveLWs statement coincides with piecing. You are not piecing. You know your W is up to something so you have two options.

1. Ignore and focus on yourself and kids and work on becoming a man only a fool would leave.

2. Confront and act accordingly with the appropriate consequences.

Confronting and then accepting her lame excuses with no consequences comes off as weak behavior.

Does that make sense?

[marching]

Hi Doug54, I relate to a lot of aspects of your sitch. All I can say is, you're not alone.

For instance, it wouldn't be an alpha move to realize that W may be struggling with her MLC. I don't even know if she's "struggling" at the moment - she seems happy with the replay phase, new fake boobs, and going out like a college kid (last night at least).

Happy people don't go around making huge changes, withdrawing from their families, trying to escape their lives. She might feel good in the moment when she's getting her fix, but I would be very surprised if she isn't actually struggling deep (or not-so-deep) down.

I say this because my H recently admitted to me multiple times that he's really, really unhappy. This after claiming that his life has been so much better without me in it. One of the first things he told me about a month into our separation was that he's way happier and enjoys his job (he'd complained about his job a lot before). But last week, he told me that he actually isn't happy with his job—he feels like he's just going through the motions, and he's applying for a new one in a different country! And then he followed up with a really self-pitying, stream-of-conscious text about how things aren't easy for him and he's just trying to get by.

He kicked me out of his life, hit a new fitness milestone, and is having an affair. But he still isn't happy.

[marching]

I also agree with LH that she's throwing you under the bus in the text with the counselor. She's blaming you for her problems.

By the way, I also recently found out some troubling information (my H's affairs) through an anti-DB method. I didn't snoop though, I steered an interaction towards an R talk. I understand the many reasons why not having R talks are the #1 rule of DBing: among others, it will likely become highly charged, pushing your spouse even further away, and your spouse will probably not be 100% honest and/or give unsatisfying answers because they are likely confused themselves. All of this is incredibly painful for the LBS.

But in the end, I think my anti-DBing move actually served my ultimate DB goal of taking my power back and maintaining my sanity. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely traumatized by H's confession of the affairs. But I nevertheless appreciate knowing what's going on. And I prefer to have gotten the info from him rather than from someone else, which was bound to happen eventually. I am also relieved, in a way, to know that I wasn't crazy to harbor suspicions.

I admit that I am totally itching to know more about the extent of my H's infidelity, but at least for now, the healthiest choice for me is just to leave it here, just process the knowledge of the existence of the infidelity without torturing myself with details.

So I guess the point is, it's all about how you react to the information. I really see the wisdom R2C and LH19's advice re: 1) stop snooping once you know what is going on and 2) either ignore and GAL or confront and be firm about consequences. What reaction(s) will best serve your goals?

[Rockon]

I can relate too. WW said she was unhappy at BD - she just wanted adventure joy and passion. Left me and family and long time deep solid friends and went wild. At ONE point shortly after she said she was happy. Then since very unhappy, life is so hard, so much stress etc.

[Doug54]

Doug I think you are cherry picking information to try to incorporate it into your sitch based on your current agenda.

So SteveLWs statement coincides with piecing. You are not piecing. You know your W is up to something so you have two options.

1. Ignore and focus on yourself and kids and work on becoming a man only a fool would leave.

2. Confront and act accordingly with the appropriate consequences.

Confronting and then accepting her lame excuses with no consequences comes off as weak behavior.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

[Doug54]

I also agree with LH that she's throwing you under the bus in the text with the counselor. She's blaming you for her problems.

By the way, I also recently found out some troubling information (my H's affairs) through an anti-DB method. I didn't snoop though, I steered an interaction towards an R talk. I understand the many reasons why not having R talks are the #1 rule of DBing: among others, it will likely become highly charged, pushing your spouse even further away, and your spouse will probably not be 100% honest and/or give unsatisfying answers because they are likely confused themselves. All of this is incredibly painful for the LBS.

But in the end, I think my anti-DBing move actually served my ultimate DB goal of taking my power back and maintaining my sanity. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely traumatized by H's confession of the affairs. But I nevertheless appreciate knowing what's going on. And I prefer to have gotten the info from him rather than from someone else, which was bound to happen eventually. I am also relieved, in a way, to know that I wasn't crazy to harbor suspicions.

I admit that I am totally itching to know more about the extent of my H's infidelity, but at least for now, the healthiest choice for me is just to leave it here, just process the knowledge of the existence of the infidelity without torturing myself with details.

So I guess the point is, it's all about how you react to the information. I really see the wisdom R2C and LH19's advice re: 1) stop snooping once you know what is going on and 2) either ignore and GAL or confront and be firm about consequences. What reaction(s) will best serve your goals?

Marching, thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your insight. As far as my goals, we have three children at home and I am trying to maintain their equilibrium for the time being. S14 seems to be losing respect for W. He witnessed her pretty drunk at home New Year's after stepson 19 was her designated driver. He has said more than once that he wants to "live with me" if we get divorced (I'm not sure he knows how child custody works).

I guess it's kind of good knowing a little more now and not "having my head in the sand" but I have been really p!ssed off. Not an ideal place to be.

[Doug54]

I can relate too. WW said she was unhappy at BD - she just wanted adventure joy and passion. Left me and family and long time deep solid friends and went wild. At ONE point shortly after she said she was happy. Then since very unhappy, life is so hard, so much stress etc.

Thanks, Rockon. We'll see what happens with my situation. As LH says, it has to get worse before it gets better. And right now, I don't want any part of a future with W. Just biding time.

[Kind18]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

A good way to think about it is to realise that you only get, on average, 80 laps around the sun.

The last 10-15 usually aren’t that great, managing health problems.

The first 15-20 you’re learning and deciding on a career. So you really only get about 45-50 years where you can have a great, unrestricted life. And there’s a 50% chance you’ll get less than 80 years.

Every day is a gift. Stop sitting around, worrying about what might be, and trying to cajole someone into loving you again. This person, who is destroying your marriage, are you going to let them ruin the best years of your life? Will you sit around, worrying about it, trying desperately to fix it back to what it was, knowing that it obviously wasn’t that great anyway?

When you’re 80 years old, and the light is getting very dim, will you look back on the years you stopped your life trying to get this person back? Will you regret not going out and living your best life every single day when suddenly you have very few remaining?

LH is right. Your ticket to happiness is to live every minute to the full. Become the best you can possibly be. Fix what you identify YOU did wrong in the relationship. What your partner did wrong - who gives a sh*t? That’s their problem, not yours - and you can’t fix it, the only way that will ever change is if THEY decide to change themselves. Find what makes you tick. Go and do things you enjoy. Find hobbies, get fit, eat fine food, connect with and love your kids like you’ve never done before.

If your partner decides they want in, then maybe you will reconcile. But if you waste your life trying to get them back and it doesn’t work out, I guarantee you’ll look back on that time in later life as a waste of an amazing opportunity.

I came here three years ago, shocked, horrified, broken and lost. They day I let it all go and decided to ignore her dumpster fire and live my best life - that’s when I found true happiness.

[BL42]

For what it’s worth, W is going to appear like her life is going great. Happy with her new life and behaviours, new augmentations, new friends, etc. She will expend tremendous energies maintaining her fantasy/reality. She has to. Yet, in the still darkness of night, when she is still and at rest, her demons will come out, and she will struggle.

Happy people don't go around making huge changes, withdrawing from their families, trying to escape their lives. She might feel good in the moment when she's getting her fix, but I would be very surprised if she isn't actually struggling deep (or not-so-deep) down.

DnJ & marching make a great point here. One that often is hard for the the LBS to realize being bogged down in our struggles with the sitch...but it's not always rainbows and sunshine for the WAS/WS...even if they're projecting a happy exterior. Often times they're struggling just as much if not more, but hiding it.

I remember asking my then-W how she could blow up our family so easily (or at least it seemed to me) and she responded something to the effect of you don't know how much I cry in the car...etc. Also found a Pinterest board of motivational quotes and how people would judge her and she had to do this...etc.

So...not that this CHANGES the situation at all for the LBS, but perhaps it gives some reassurance or comfort in a way that it's not just us struggling. We still have to live with the results unfortunately, but don't assume it's all a fairytale on the other side....despite your perception of their newfound "happiness".

[LH19]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

Well it may help to understand what she is going through. There is some really good information out there regarding Happiness U-curve, the female brain and hormones. It is not uncommon for a woman your Ws age to want to blow up her life completely.

The really unfortunate thing is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

[bttrfly]

btw, your son is old enough in most states to make his own choice about where and with whom he will live.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Doug

I like your summary. It’s an interesting timeline with some key moments.

-August 2019: stepdaughter goes away to college. W cries on the drive home after we move her in. In hindsight, I'm wondering if this was a kickoff point for W's MLC.

A child going to college and/or moving out, the family growing up, us growing old, pretty common fodder for a trigger. My W also cried when our first son went to university. There was also the death of her Grandma and Grandpa. Lots of life’s pressures around that time. She ended up leaving the kids before they could leave her. What an odd solution she came up with. Ah, such confusion. To her that likely felt right.

-March 2020: Covid. Everyone is home. I don't necessarily remember more stress in our particular household, but there seems to be plenty of literature about Covid / lockdowns straining relationships.

Yes, there are plenty of reports of increased stressed. And, in my view, lots of increased stress from such reports. Folks listen and will usually do (or manifest) what they hear.

-November 2021: W asks me to help fix her laptop and flies across the kitchen to grab it away when a Facebook Messenger window pops up. Everything happened too quickly for me to read anything. Lots of arguing about it that day.

-December 2021: we take a trip as a couple right before New Year's. Everything seems fine.

-February-ish to March/April 2022: W seems to be growing distant and starts seeing a counselor in March. This turned out to be largely an attempt at painting me as a bad husband / "narcissist" and more or less legitimizing her EA and possibly PA. The "bomb drop" came in the form of me pressing her about what was going on. There was a reference to how it might just be a phase she was going through and she didn't "feel the same" towards me. (insert eye roll emoji)

Time from trigger to running seems about right. I’m sure the lockdown delayed her journey somewhat.

-May to July 2022: probably the height of "going through the motions" in the household. There were still bedroom relations but almost all talk was limited to kid-related stuff. We do three ill-advised joint counseling sessions and a "keeping up appearances" summer trip with the kids. Before this past week, the last time I snooped around was I believe the end of July.

-August to November 2022: I try to apply DB principles and adopt that mindset for the most part. No snooping around, which I feel helps my mental state, but in doing so, I guess I was burying my head in the sand. W pulls back on going to her counselor and no talk of divorce or splitting up. Some ups and downs in there, I'm sure (going by memory here). I largely stabilize at work with not thinking about the marriage situation all the time.

Snooping around is just going to hurt you. Good for stopping. That is not burying your head in the sand, that is a conscious choice and decision to focus on things that are more important - like you and kids!

And it removes pressure from W. Gives plenty of time and space. All things she did respond to.

-December 2022: Mostly a good month. W seems a little less guarded with her phone and even shows me a few things on it, lets son play on it. Probably a mirage. W increases non-sexual touch at bedtime (in addition to sexual touch at times)- back scratches, etc. which had been absent for quite a while. General conversation is almost about normal. We talk about things other than just the kids. W goes to get breast augmentation procedure, texting me often and "after" photos. W vents about my parents increasingly, a frequent source of conflict. I try to validate but once or twice make an offhand comment like "Why do you care about them so much? It's not going to matter before too long" (a reference to splitting up).

In August you started to apply DB principles. More or less. And W’s did notice and even had a positive response. Interesting the influence one yields. Make no mistake, she still needs to walk her path. DB keeps you sane and not throwing boulders in her way.

I wonder why W has increasing conflict with your parents. I suspect she is projecting upon them. Perhaps feelings from/about her own parents and upbringing. Things she doesn’t yet, and cannot yet, see clearly.

Comments like “why do you care about them so much” and “it’s not going to matter before too long” are not helpful. Her venting feelings do matter. To her. Invalidating them and her will place her target upon you.

Validating feelings isn’t agreeing. And I get how you likely want to correct someone dismissing/disrespecting your parents. For items W brings up, that are clearly factually incorrect, you can let some go, and you can counter some - I’m sorry you feel that way, however my parents <insert truth dart statement>. Don’t do this for every single thing, too many darts lose their sting.

And realize, W is unlikely to see things in your way. She’ll argue the sky is red all day long. So, don’t argue. Just agree and validate. She will hear and eventually start to see blue sky, in her own time.

Admittedly, I backslid a little and snooped around recently. I saw that W had paid for some online sex course thing and confronted her about it. Definitely not adhering to DB principles, obviously.

-Late December: discover the sex site online course thing. Open separate bank account the next day. See that W had messaged her counselor about it, venting. Also in there:

W: "I feel guilty and awful now, I mean, it is because of things I'm doing"
Counselor: "Don't know what to tell you about that"
W: "It's all jealousy and wants to punish me"
W: "But he'll go along just fine without a care in the world and then suddenly decides to fixate on me doing something. Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive."

(No further reply from counselor). That reference to me "going along just fine" is obviously where I'm trying to DB and not act controlling. So anyway - extremely long-winded recap of where not snooping might get you - obliviousness.

That is certainly some snooping around. Finding her private conversation between her and her counselor. And bringing that up to her. Doug, stop going down that road. That is a cheese-less tunnel for your emotional state.

A person in crisis has to grow up, and unfortunately that often includes some unsavoury behaviours. Pressure, blaming, judging, etc. will all delay the MLCer’s journey and propel them out the door and away from that source. Don’t place that target upon yourself. She will place it there enough all on her own.

Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive.

W sees your changes, and is questioning if she can trust them. Recent snooping/setback is not the answer you want her to have. Be better, not bitter. Be Doug 2.0.

That reference to me "going along just fine" is obviously where I'm trying to DB and not act controlling.

Yep. Now stop trying and start doing.

So anyway - extremely long-winded recap of where not snooping might get you - obliviousness.

Obliviousness. Hmmm.

It’s clear where snooping does get one.

Not snooping. The mind has trouble doing “not”. For example, do not think of elephants. And now you’ve conjured an elephant in your mind. To do “not” we actually first have to do, then ignore. And that reinforces the very thing one is “trying” to not do.

To not snoop. Do otherwise. Focus on you. GAL. Be active. Etc. (Idle hands and all. )

We make a purposeful effort until those changes, the desired new behaviour, takes hold and becomes who we are.

I do not equate snoop-free with being oblivious. Plenty of information will present itself without one needing to dig. That need to dig is driven by ego. A need to be right. A need to judge. A need to condemn. Something you can (and should) let go of, if/when you choose to.

What would you recommend?

Both.

Turn your focus from W and into something better. That is not ignoring, just less following. Live and love your life. And at times hold W appropriately accountable, letting her consequences befall as they do. Boundary driven, not manipulating or such.

D

[Doug54]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

A good way to think about it is to realise that you only get, on average, 80 laps around the sun.

The last 10-15 usually aren’t that great, managing health problems.

The first 15-20 you’re learning and deciding on a career. So you really only get about 45-50 years where you can have a great, unrestricted life. And there’s a 50% chance you’ll get less than 80 years.

Every day is a gift. Stop sitting around, worrying about what might be, and trying to cajole someone into loving you again. This person, who is destroying your marriage, are you going to let them ruin the best years of your life? Will you sit around, worrying about it, trying desperately to fix it back to what it was, knowing that it obviously wasn’t that great anyway?

When you’re 80 years old, and the light is getting very dim, will you look back on the years you stopped your life trying to get this person back? Will you regret not going out and living your best life every single day when suddenly you have very few remaining?

LH is right. Your ticket to happiness is to live every minute to the full. Become the best you can possibly be. Fix what you identify YOU did wrong in the relationship. What your partner did wrong - who gives a sh*t? That’s their problem, not yours - and you can’t fix it, the only way that will ever change is if THEY decide to change themselves. Find what makes you tick. Go and do things you enjoy. Find hobbies, get fit, eat fine food, connect with and love your kids like you’ve never done before.

If your partner decides they want in, then maybe you will reconcile. But if you waste your life trying to get them back and it doesn’t work out, I guarantee you’ll look back on that time in later life as a waste of an amazing opportunity.

I came here three years ago, shocked, horrified, broken and lost. They day I let it all go and decided to ignore her dumpster fire and live my best life - that’s when I found true happiness.

Thanks for the kind words, Kind. I appreciate your post. I need to embody the mindset you advocate here, but I've slipped (as evidenced by my recent posts). I went and read some of your initial thread. Really impressed with all you've done for yourself, mate!

[Doug54]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

Well it may help to understand what she is going through. There is some really good information out there regarding Happiness U-curve, the female brain and hormones. It is not uncommon for a woman your Ws age to want to blow up her life completely.

The really unfortunate thing is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

I appreciate the perspective, LH. I guess it comes down to how much one can tolerate. Which of the two options in your other post would you advocate, knowing what you know? Ignorance and self-focus, or trying to apply consequences to wayward behavior? Again, didn't Sandi say wayward wives should be reigned in? Probably wouldn't work in my situation given the nature of MLC.

I apologize if my posts are taking on a repetitive tone. I feel like I was coasting without too much concern over what W was up to and curiosity got the best of me, and threw me for a loop.

[Doug54]

btw, your son is old enough in most states to make his own choice about where and with whom he will live.

Thanks, bttrfly. I would probably feel bad about that if it came to pass - if S14 elected not to see much of W. I have a lot of resentment towards W but even if the decision were left up to me for custody, I would certainly want her to see the children 50 percent of the time. It's important they have both parents in their lives.

[bttrfly]

yes, it is important.

[Doug54]

Thanks for your response, DnJ.

I wonder why W has increasing conflict with your parents. I suspect she is projecting upon them. Perhaps feelings from/about her own parents and upbringing. Things she doesn’t yet, and cannot yet, see clearly.

This is amazingly prescient. W's parents are good people, but she felt very slighted by them in childhood when the church dominated their lives. Her parents never signed her up for youth sports or activities or attended events. She also looks at them as more or less choosing religion over her. Possible number one catalyst for MLC - unresolved hurts from childhood. W also passed up pursuing a career-path program at a fairly prestigious university to attend a smaller school with her boyfriend at the time, who became husband #1. She did not get to party or go out much at all due to her college life revolving around him. That's probably why the New Year's thing was so appealing to her.

That is certainly some snooping around. Finding her private conversation between her and her counselor. And bringing that up to her. Doug, stop going down that road. That is a cheese-less tunnel for your emotional state.

Slight correction - I did not let her know I saw the texts to and from the counselor. That part was not broached. I still get your drift about the cheeseless tunnel.

Nothing has changed, he just decides to get obsessive.

So, this text from W to her counselor referred to her own behavior. Like, she's not doing anything "new" on the affair front, I just reacted to information garnered in snooping. What does "nothing's changed" mean, of course? The frequency of meeting up with OP? Their exact behaviors? The duration of their nightly text sessions? Who knows.

Turn your focus from W and into something better. That is not ignoring, just less following. Live and love your life. And at times hold W appropriately accountable, letting her consequences befall as they do. Boundary driven, not manipulating or such.

What would be an example of holding W "appropriately accountable"? How should I act towards her around the house?

[LH19]

Yes, it makes sense. What would you recommend?

Well it may help to understand what she is going through. There is some really good information out there regarding Happiness U-curve, the female brain and hormones. It is not uncommon for a woman your Ws age to want to blow up her life completely.

The really unfortunate thing is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

I appreciate the perspective, LH. I guess it comes down to how much one can tolerate. Which of the two options in your other post would you advocate, knowing what you know? Ignorance and self-focus, or trying to apply consequences to wayward behavior? Again, didn't Sandi say wayward wives should be reigned in? Probably wouldn't work in my situation given the nature of MLC.

I apologize if my posts are taking on a repetitive tone. I feel like I was coasting without too much concern over what W was up to and curiosity got the best of me, and threw me for a loop.

So a lot depends on where you are at mentally. I can tell you there is no shame in sucking it up to keep your family together. Like my ex your W isn’t flaunting another man in your face. You also have the option of moving her out of the master bedroom and separating finances and removing all support.

It [censored] man it really does but I can tell you that it will be ok. . Those memories have been emotionally erased from my mind. I can remember what happened but I can’t remember how I felt at the time.

I really don’t have any respect for my exw other than she’s a decent mom. She just introduced my kids to another BF it’s like 4 now. My son made fun of him and rolled his eyes. It’s really sad to see the person she’s become from the person she was but it is what it is.

The road your W is going on is not one you want any part of moving forward.

BTW you never gave more info on the sex course.

[DnJ]

Slight correction - I did not let her know I saw the texts to and from the counselor.

My apologies. I misunderstood.

[Doug54]

So a lot depends on where you are at mentally. I can tell you there is no shame in sucking it up to keep your family together. Like my ex your W isn’t flaunting another man in your face. You also have the option of moving her out of the master bedroom and separating finances and removing all support.

I think W fears a fault divorce too much to ever flaunt some other man. Also, I think she realizes whatever it is, is fantasy-based. Maybe this mf'er is already married himself. I think it's just something giving her tingles that is fine being what it is. Doesn't make it any more palatable for me.

LH, did you ever consider moving your W out of the master bedroom? I know you didn't, but did it cross your mind? Did you have separate finances after you knew there was nothing that would change your wife's mind about D?

BTW you never gave more info on the sex course.

Can I name it on here, or what exactly do you want to know?

[LH19]

Truthfully no. I did tell her I wasn’t sleeping anywhere else. Also, we tried to keep it normal for the kids as much as possible. We had separate finances during our marriage. We split bills based on income. Truthfully I never worried about her spending out of control because she was super frugal which was an issue in our marriage.

I’m not as big of a claim the master bedroom to get respect guy unless it’s a known physical affair. But I am a do not sleep elsewhere guy.

What was the course about? Teaching you how to be better at sex?

[BL42]

What was the course about? Teaching you how to be better at sex?

Maybe it's Pack_19's Sexual Kung Fu.

[Doug54]

What was the course about? Teaching you how to be better at sex?

Here's what it says on the website: "Online Courses & Guides - Sex and relationships are such an important part of our lives, but it's not like anyone ever handed us a user manual for intimacy! We feel awkward and embarrassed talking about our needs - even with our long-term partner - so we keep our mouths shut. We try the "fake it til you make it" approach to confidence - but stay firmly planted in "fake it" territory. [...] Our online courses and guides have helped tens of thousands of couples transform their relationships - in and out of the bedroom. We've got something for every budget.

View the courses - I'm looking for:
- Orgasm
-Fun in the bedroom
-Challenges
-Sex drive
-Male performance
-Relationships
-For parents

I could not access which particular course my W had purchased.

[LH19]

That would be great if she was working on the marriage. In the thick of my sitch my ex bought a book on our shared Amazon account “How to find the love you deserve”. SMH lol.

[Ready2Change]

View the courses - I'm looking for:
- Orgasm
-Fun in the bedroom
-Challenges
-Sex drive
-Male performance
-Relationships
-For parents

I strongly suggest YOU sign up for a few of them and enjoy!

[Doug54]

So, I think I may have figured out who the OM is. It’s not someone I know directly. Does this change anything? Should I tell W that I know, or drop the name to see her reaction?

I am leaning towards divorce but am stuck in the house with W for the time being. I forgot to add that she flipped out a little about thinking I may have a tracker on her car or had hired a PI the last time we argued, over her website visit. I was like, “is that something an innocent person says?”

I think it’s fairly clear this bs with the guy has been going on in some form for quite a while. The meetup frequency can’t be often at all, but still.

[bttrfly]

Doug,
I'm going to ask you a few questions. You don't need to answer them here, but at least please think about them.

1. Which one of you is racing towards Divorce court faster? It's been 2.5 years, and she's still there, in your home, with you. So, do you want to try to save this marriage or not?

2. What have you gained from all your sleuthing? Has it made you a better person? A better husband or father? How has it improved your life?

3. What about yourself are you avoiding by putting so much focus on your wife and her actions, and why are you avoiding it?

[LH19]

So, I think I may have figured out who the OM is. It’s not someone I know directly. Does this change anything? Should I tell W that I know, or drop the name to see her reaction?

Slow down and breathe.

I am leaning towards divorce but am stuck in the house with W for the time being.

That's ok. Not as bad as you think.

I forgot to add that she flipped out a little about thinking I may have a tracker on her car or had hired a PI the last time we argued, over her website visit. I was like, “is that something an innocent person says?”

Unfortunately from the sidelines we knew this was going on.

I think it’s fairly clear this bs with the guy has been going on in some form for quite a while. The meetup frequency can’t be often at all, but still.

Don't ever underestimate a WW.

[bttrfly]

So, I think I may have figured out who the OM is. It’s not someone I know directly. Does this change anything?

I don't know. Does it?

Should I tell W that I know, or drop the name to see her reaction?

To what end?
What's your objective, motivation, goal?

What do you hope happens by telling her?

I am leaning towards divorce but am stuck in the house with W for the time being.

is this really how you feel or is this anger talking?

I forgot to add that she flipped out a little about thinking I may have a tracker on her car or had hired a PI the last time we argued, over her website visit. I was like, “is that something an innocent person says?”

No one wants to be controlled Doug. No one.

I think it’s fairly clear this bs with the guy has been going on in some form for quite a while. The meetup frequency can’t be often at all, but still.

Forget what she is or isn't, may or may not be doing.

Focus on yourself. What do you want? What are your core values? How do you want to spend the rest of your life?

Take the focus off of her.

[Ready2Change]

The meetup frequency can’t be often at all

I bet you are wrong.

Why are you focused on the wrong person?

There are three people you can choose to focus on:
1) Your Wife
2) OM
3) yourself

Which one are you going to have the most control over?

As I read through the forums on Divorce Busting, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share.

My advise, commit to personal growth. What you judge in others, you condemn in yourself. Take all the focus off of your spouse and address your own issues. How hard is it to change your own behavior? Now think how hard (almost impossible) to change someone else.

If you have kids, commit to being the best parent ever. Frequent and equal contact with both parents is important. You are responsible for your relationship with your kids. Let your spouse be responsible for their relationship with the kids. Learn new ways of parenting. Lots of great books out there. Most of the relationship skills dealing with spouse will also help in parenting.

Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Do this in all areas (SPIES - Social, Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual.) Get in alignment (Beliefs, Thoughts, Body Language, Tones, Words, Actions) with your core values.

Try new ways of interacting. Read about boundaries and learn how to set and enforce them. Be in the present. Let go of the past and do not fear the future. Learn ways of being more attractive, especially in your behavior. Learn ways of being seductive (indirectly attracting). This is an extremely important set of skills to understand.

The best way to respond to a particular event? Initially, the best action to take is no action. Do your homework here. Do not react emotionally. Stay neutral. Seek wise council here. Evaluate all the different options and the possible outcomes of each. Challenge your current beliefs. Make a choice and live with the consequences, good or bad. Things are predictable. Read and read and read. Get mentally ahead of your spouse in the whole process ASAP, they are ahead right now.



As far as your spouse, until you have enough info to prove this wrong, assume there is another person (Hint: This is your first 180). Do not reveal anything about what you know and how you found out. "We both know that is a lie." is a great way to deal with any deception.



I wish everyone well during these difficult times. Remember that everything will be OK no matter what the WAS chooses.

[Doug54]

Doug,
I'm going to ask you a few questions. You don't need to answer them here, but at least please think about them.

1. Which one of you is racing towards Divorce court faster? It's been 2.5 years, and she's still there, in your home, with you. So, do you want to try to save this marriage or not?

It's been 1.5 years at most and she's more or less financially stuck here.

2. What have you gained from all your sleuthing?

A dose of reality, perhaps.

3. What about yourself are you avoiding by putting so much focus on your wife and her actions, and why are you avoiding it?

I like you bttrfly, but this feels like gaslighting.

[Doug54]

is this really how you feel or is this anger talking?

I'm starting to feel like I would prefer to cut bait when the time (financially) is right. Read LH's post in this thread about how he now realizes what it's like to be treated right and not feel anxiety whenever his wife's phone vibrates. I wouldn't say that last part applies to me in that exact form, but W's phone is definitely part of the duplicitousness.

Focus on yourself. What do you want? What are your core values? How do you want to spend the rest of your life?

Trust and companionship would be two important ones if we're talking about relationships. I don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone willing to have affairs. Sometimes what gets broken doesn't go back together again.

[bttrfly]

Doug,
I'm going to ask you a few questions. You don't need to answer them here, but at least please think about them.

1. Which one of you is racing towards Divorce court faster? It's been 2.5 years, and she's still there, in your home, with you. So, do you want to try to save this marriage or not?

It's been 1.5 years at most and she's more or less financially stuck here.

You did not answer my question: do you want to save this marriage or not? No need to answer that here, but I think it would be a good exercise for you to think about it.

2. What have you gained from all your sleuthing?

A dose of reality, perhaps.

Reality in what sense? Has it improved your life, your marriage, your outlook? Does it bring you closer to your goal?

3. What about yourself are you avoiding by putting so much focus on your wife and her actions, and why are you avoiding it?

I like you bttrfly, but this feels like gaslighting.

Thank you Doug, I like you too and I hope that asking you these questions helps you get some clarity in your sitch. I've honestly never been accused of gaslighting before, so forgive me that's new for me to wrap my mind around.

Maybe I need to phrase it differently: You're putting a lot of energy and focus on your wife and what she is/isn't/may be/may not be doing. You could be putting that energy and focus on yourself, what you want in your life, how you want to live your life, what's truly important to you as an individual and as a partner or from a partner. You seem to be putting the focus on her. Why? Does that get you closer to your goal? Do you have a clear idea of what your goal is?

You really need to know what your goal is.

I hope that I've articulated this more clearly so there's no confusion about gaslighting.

[bttrfly]

is this really how you feel or is this anger talking?

I'm starting to feel like I would prefer to cut bait when the time (financially) is right. Read LH's post in this thread about how he now realizes what it's like to be treated right and not feel anxiety whenever his wife's phone vibrates. I wouldn't say that last part applies to me in that exact form, but W's phone is definitely part of the duplicitousness.

Focus on yourself. What do you want? What are your core values? How do you want to spend the rest of your life?

Trust and companionship would be two important ones if we're talking about relationships. I don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone willing to have affairs. Sometimes what gets broken doesn't go back together again.

I understand these statements. This is what I was driving at in my previous post. Once you know what's important to you, the rest falls into place. It becomes less about their actions and more about your wants and needs.

The thing is, it's really important to act from a place that's not driven by anger and hurt. That is a huge ask when you've been lied to, betrayed, cheated on. Believe me, I get that. So what's the best you can do to ensure that if/when you make a decision and take an action you're doing so from a place of strength rather than from anger or hurt?

To me, that last question is the jackpot. You don't want to take an action that you will ultimately regret. Rather, taking an action in a way that honors your core values will lead to I think a better outcome.

[BL42]

Doug54,

So, I think I may have figured out who the OM is. It’s not someone I know directly.

Do you know OM's circumstances? (How old is he? is he married? In town or far away? ...etc.). Although I agree with others you should do your best not to dwell on him (though in my experience that's easier said than done) and to instead focus on yourself, some of those answers might inform your actions.

Does this change anything?

Probably not. It's was always very likely there was a affair...in any of these situations.

Should I tell W that I know, or drop the name to see her reaction?

Usually folks here advise not to reveal what or how much you know. First, your gut is almost always right so if you think it's a particular guy it likely is. Second, you can confirm it 100% if you really want to without floating it for her reaction. Third, she'll like fake a reaction and lie to you anyway. Fourth, you'll reveal your cards and she'll be extra careful hiding it.

I am leaning towards divorce but am stuck in the house with W for the time being.

Don't react emotionally. Process your feelings before making any decisions - and I'm sure you have some.

I forgot to add that she flipped out a little about thinking I may have a tracker on her car or had hired a PI the last time we argued, over her website visit.

Did you?

I was like, “is that something an innocent person says?”

No, it's not. She's projecting her guilty feelings onto you.

I think it’s fairly clear this bs with the guy has been going on in some form for quite a while. The meetup frequency can’t be often at all, but still.

Like LH & R2C said...don't be so sure. It's incredible the stories of how the WS met up with AP.

I like you bttrfly, but this feels like gaslighting.

Doug - bttrfly is asking you a whole bunch of really important questions. She's not gaslighting you. You're likely worked up about OM's identity. Trust me, I've been there. That's completely understandable. But once you step back you should do some self-reflection on bttrfly's questions.

[Doug54]

You did not answer my question: do you want to save this marriage or not? No need to answer that here, but I think it would be a good exercise for you to think about it.

Zero sum, binary situation: yes, I would like to save it. Taking into account context: I am not sure. How much should one put up with and for how long?

What about yourself are you avoiding by putting so much focus on your wife and her actions, and why are you avoiding it?

I apologize for the gaslighting remark. I read the above comment as more or less insinuating, "are you avoiding your role in your wife having an affair?"

I think when people talk about goals on this site, I personally almost always think about them through a relationship prism. For instance, if someone said "it's always been a goal of mine to learn to juggle," I would say it doesn't matter if one is single or married while balancing three simultaneous affairs - nothing in those circumstances would prevent them from learning to juggle. So bttrfly, when you ask me if snooping helped with my goal, I'm inclined to respond to that in a relationship sense. It helped crystallize my situation some - my goal of having a relationship with trust and companionship might not be possible with this wife.

There are a lot of balls in that hopper - time and space; feelings are fleeting and can change; LH's assurance that it's ok to swallow your pride for the kids, etc. I see in your signature that you did get divorced. Can you remember the moment you knew with certainty?

I do appreciate your feedback and won't levy a gaslighting gripe next time.

[bttrfly]

You did not answer my question: do you want to save this marriage or not? No need to answer that here, but I think it would be a good exercise for you to think about it.

Zero sum, binary situation: yes, I would like to save it. Taking into account context: I am not sure. How much should one put up with and for how long?

ahhh, the million dollar question!!! I think that's different for everyone

What about yourself are you avoiding by putting so much focus on your wife and her actions, and why are you avoiding it?

I apologize for the gaslighting remark. I read the above comment as more or less insinuating, "are you avoiding your role in your wife having an affair?" [/quote]

Thank you for the apology. Not at all how I meant it.

I think when people talk about goals on this site, I personally almost always think about them through a relationship prism. For instance, if someone said "it's always been a goal of mine to learn to juggle," I would say it doesn't matter if one is single or married while balancing three simultaneous affairs - nothing in those circumstances would prevent them from learning to juggle. So bttrfly, when you ask me if snooping helped with my goal, I'm inclined to respond to that in a relationship sense. It helped crystallize my situation some - my goal of having a relationship with trust and companionship might not be possible with this wife.

Can you remember the moment you knew with certainty?
Do you want the honest answer? I hoped right up until the day it was final that my exh would walk it back, stop the divorce. He didn't. He also yelled at me on the day the divorce was final, saying he never wanted this. When I pointed out that I'd made it crystal clear he was driving this, I wasn't standing in his way, but waiting for him to stop it he got even angrier and hung up on me. So when did I know with certainty? Long after the divorce was final.

I do appreciate your feedback and won't levy a gaslighting grip next time. [/quote]
Thanks Doug. I know you were really upset with the new info on OM. I appreciate it though.

[Doug54]

Do you know OM's circumstances? (How old is he? is he married? In town or far away? ...etc.). Although I agree with others you should do your best not to dwell on him (though in my experience that's easier said than done) and to instead focus on yourself, some of those answers might inform your actions.

If I'm correct about who it is, he lives an hour away and doesn't appear to be married but has either one or two young children. I'm not exactly sure how his path organically crossed with W's. It is not someone from her past.

Second, you can confirm it 100% if you really want to without floating it for her reaction.

Do tell.

Did you?

No, I have no tracker on her car and have never hired a private eye. I don't imagine I ever will as that's expensive and unlikely to yield tangible results in a fault divorce.

Don't react emotionally. Process your feelings before making any decisions - and I'm sure you have some.

Everything I've read about divorce or staying together after infidelity requires that the affair (obviously) has to be over, and the cheater has to be remorseful and willing to work on the marriage. I don't think that's in the vicinity at all.

[Ready2Change]

How much research have you done on attraction and seduction?

Us men are typically simple creatures. Visually attracted to the ladies.

Women are much more complex and are more attracted to a mans behavior. She lost her attraction for you. Plain and simple. Your behavior has to change during this period if you want any chance of attracting her back.

Lots of layers of the onion for you to peel back.

Do you have any readings you recommended beyond Robert Greene? Anything specific?

I assume you have seen my book list from my tag line:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094


Beyond those books, I am a Youtube junkie. Some of topics of research:

"Pick up Artist", Redpill, BlackPill, BluePill ect. LFA, Jordan Peterson, Sterling Cooper. Each of these leads to another rabbit hole.

Again, There is some bad stuff included in these. You have to pickout the nuggets of gold from everything. For example the PUA are behaving attractive and basically "tricking" ladies into attraction. I don't think they can maintain long term. Kinda like a lady can put on some makeup to increase her level of attractiveness.


I also really enjoyed browsing the self help section at the bookstore. Something always popped out as worth a read.

While I am out, am am observing couples. Pretty easy to see what is attractive and what is not just by watching how the woman reacts to the mans behavior.

[Doug54]

Thanks, Ready. I like your last comment about watching couples in public. I've always enjoyed "people watching" itself, observing how folks conduct themselves.

[Doug54]

Hey LH, recalling your situation - what do you think you would have done if your wife kept "coasting" as you termed it, and never forged ahead with filing for divorce? How long do you think you would have kept things together for the sake of the family?

[LH19]

Doug,

That’s a tough question. If I’m being honest probably awhile. I was afraid of divorce for myself and the kids and my ex wasn’t a disrespectful WW. Though if I found out she was up to no good I would have been done.

Part of the reason I post is I’m an advocate that D is better the bs you put up with as a standing LBS. Not much worse than trying to save something by yourself.

I will tell you this that someday you won’t remember feeling like you down now. Some day you will feel peace.

I’m not sure though I will ever feel completely whole again knowing my intact family is gone forever.

[bttrfly]

I wish there was a hug emoticon because i'd hug you LH xoxo

[LH19]

I wish there was a hug emoticon because i'd hug you LH xoxo

Thanks BF😉

[Ready2Change]

I’m not sure though I will ever feel completely whole again knowing my intact family is gone forever.

Ya, something changes. I am with a woman who loves me more than my X ever did. But raising a blended family was worth it. Step daughter is amazing.

[Ready2Change]

Thanks, Ready. I like your last comment about watching couples in public. I've always enjoyed "people watching" itself, observing how folks conduct themselves.

Check out Marni wingwoman. She has some great tips.

[DnJ]

Hello Doug

Please start a new thread.

[Doug54]

Link to new thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2941812&#Post2941812