Hello. I’ve been lurking for a couple of months. I found this place a few weeks after bomb drop. After a lot of reading about MLC here and elsewhere, I think it fits with what my husband is going through. That and the fact that, just a day before BD, he himself said that he was going through MLC.
I’m in my early 30s, H is in his late 30s. We’ve been together for over 10 years, married for 7. No kids. For the past few years, we have been long distance for work reasons, with me in Country A and H in Country B. My husband and I have very demanding careers, and our careers heavily affect our relationship. Our work involves a lot of uncertainty and international moves, especially in the early stages. I will follow up with more background in another post.
Summer 2022
We reunite after almost a year of long distance (partly COVID-induced). We have a great time (he actually said so too during BD) traveling and visiting his family (not in either Country A or B). We are both excited about the future. We talk about the new apartment he got us for the next chapter of our life together—I am moving to Country B in the fall! I’ve already shipped my stuff there.
Fall 2022
After our trip, H goes back work, and I return to Country A to wrap up some work stuff, visit my family, and apply for a visa for Country B. Just a few more weeks of long distance left before our new chapter begins. H overnights documents to me for my visa application; he wants me to be able to travel as soon as possible. He sounds extremely excited about me finally joining him. In fact, for a couple weeks, he seems in an unusually good mood, even talking in a sing-song voice. We tell each other ILY everyday (which is normal for us). We talk about having kids soon.
Then, literally overnight, his mood crashes. Complete 180. The tone of his voice is completely different. He says he doesn’t feel like he has a purpose. He feels unmotivated at work.
Over the course of the following days, he basically has a meltdown. It’s too late for him to have children, he says. He no longer has tender feelings for me. He says we haven’t really talked over the past year. He resents me. He has issues with our sex life. He hasn’t been productive for a month and it’s my fault. He thinks he wants to be alone and be responsible only for himself. We talk. No, he says, actually, he’s just blaming me. He’s sorry he said all those things. He loves me. He thinks he’s going through a midlife crisis. Maybe he’s feeling bad because his birthday is coming up soon. I try to validate (definitely could have done better though). I thank him for sharing his feelings and ask what we can do to communicate better and address our intimacy problems. He says he doesn’t want to talk about it. I say, maybe it will be easier once we are together. It’s just two more weeks before my move.
The next day, he asks me for a divorce. Over TEXT. He says he’s made up his mind, and it will seem sudden. He’s telling me over text so he can remain calm. He’s available over the phone to discuss practicalities. That’s it.
When I call him, he sounds so ANGRY. He’s adamant that there is nothing I can say to change his mind. I say I would like to have conversation in person, when I arrive in Country B. He says fine, but when I come, I cannot stay with him in the apartment. I am heartbroken. To me, this is tantamount to him kicking me out of my own home.
So I have to make last-minute plans for accommodations, which is expensive. At this point, travelers still have to quarantine, and rooms in quarantine hotels are scarce. H doesn’t offer any help. Even when I tell him that hotels are tight, and can I please stay with him if I can’t find anything, he only says “I’ll look into it.” Which is ridiculous because the plan just a few days ago was for him to stay with a friend while I quarantine in the apartment.
I make it to Country B. I quarantine in my expensive hotel. I move to an expensive AirBnB. H and I have very limited contact. Immediately after bomb drop, I sent one pursuing text message. Since then, I have been pretty much radio silent.
We meet in person once at a coffeeshop to have a conversation and H says the nuttiest things. He says he’s happy. He’s happy with his job now. He used to have a lot of anxiety (I suspect OCD) around driving, now he has no problem. He’s also a more mature person, because he now buys his own clothes and cleans the apartment (as if he wasn’t already doing these things???). He can also have an apple for dinner and no one can judge him. He doesn’t have to ask for permission to go to the bar with friends.
Our previous BD follow-up phone conversation (while I was in Country A) was very short (literally 10 minutes), so during this in-person meeting, I ask him to explain how he came to his decision. I don’t think I embodied all the ideals of DB during this conversation, but I am proud of myself for having remained calm. H, meanwhile, started to cry. He left the conversation and said we could continue it later, when we’re not in a public place.
The next week, I ask (over text) if we can meet again to continue the conversation. He says no, because our meeting made him feel bad for several days. He says maybe we can talk in 6 months or a year. He reiterates that he needs to be alone to be happy. It’s very difficult not having me in his life, but the marriage has become a burden. It will take time, but things will get better (I couldn’t tell if he was trying to comfort me or himself.)
Since then, we’ve only been in contact for business matters. He delivered stuff to me from the apartment twice. I still haven’t been to “his” apartment.
Now
After being in Country B for two months, I returned to Country A for a business trip. My family is here, so I decided to stay at least through the holidays. I am not sure what I will do after that.
Two weeks ago, while I was on my business trip, H asked if we could start the divorce paperwork, and which country I wanted to do it in. I told him I need more time to think, because I haven’t even decided where I will move next. I was very annoyed that he asked me such a huge question when he KNEW that I was on a business trip.
I am really torn. I have a good support network here in Country A. Keeping a PMA and GALing would be easier if I stayed. But it feels like I would really be shutting the door on my marriage if I don’t go back to Country B.
Wrapping up
It’s been 3 months since BD. I am a lot calmer now than I was in those early days. I am not prepared to make any big decisions about moving or legal stuff. Right now, I’m just trying to catch up on work and take care of myself. GAL activities: exercise, talking to friends, reading the forums, reading novels. I’ve been working on myself in IC, too. I have not initiated any contact with H and blocked him on social media. I’ve also refrained from asking mutual friends in Country B about him. I’m in limbo. And I’m deciding to not make any decisions for the time being.
(By the way, yes, I am aware that affairs are common during MLC. I try not to torture myself with speculation, but I have braced myself for the possibility.)
Hello marching
Welcome to the boards. I am posting the welcoming post from the MLC board as it has some extra links that will likely resonate with you, and be of benefit in this particular situation.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619A good read with much sound advice.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1884772&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello marching
Your H certainly has displayed a significant shift. Very MLC-like indeed. Late thirties is not unheard of for someone to unwittingly dredge up some unknown and unrealized past trauma(s).
There is usually a triggering event within 12-18 of bomb drop. A death of family parent or child or grandparent, a wedding, getting fired, etc. The trigger is major and significant to the person experiencing it, and as individual as they are.
One obvious change in his life is you two finally moving in together. He went from giddy and looking forward to it, to the opposite in record time. Of course, he may have been trying to put on a brave face for the last while, and everything just unravelled with two weeks to go.
He has an upcoming birthday in a few weeks. The pressures of mortality stir up plenty from one’s depths. As said, usually later in their fifties or so. Still, we don’t know what is going on in his mind, or how bad it is. Although, from what you’ve shared, he sounds pretty lost.
I’m glad you found this place soon after BD. And that you have been reading up on MLC. Something I’m sure you’ve read, yet should be reiterated, his MLC is not your fault. The seeds for a crisis were sown long ago, back in childhood.
…H says the nuttiest things. He says he’s happy. He’s happy with his job now. He used to have a lot of anxiety (I suspect OCD) around driving, now he has no problem. He’s also a more mature person, because he now buys his own clothes and cleans the apartment (as if he wasn’t already doing these things???). He can also have an apple for dinner and no one can judge him. He doesn’t have to ask for permission to go to the bar with friends.
I’m sure that sounds rather strange to you. I heard similar stuff from my W when she dropped the bomb. MLC drags folks back to their trauma, back to when they were emotionally stunted. And they need to grow ip from there/then. It’s pretty strange to see and hear, for the uninitiated; with most peripheral folks (including friends and family that don’t witness it) finding MLC to be quite unbelievable. MLC is so far from the Hollywood version. MLC is horrible!
He can have an apple for dinner, and no one can judge him. MLCers drop lots of clues. Not getting judged for an apple probably sounds rather bizarre, and I get it - it kind of is. However, that amd the other said things, are a glimpse of his psyche and inner turmoil.
It’s been 3 months since BD. I am a lot calmer now than I was in those early days. I am not prepared to make any big decisions about moving or legal stuff. Right now, I’m just trying to catch up on work and take care of myself. GAL activities: exercise, talking to friends, reading the forums, reading novels. I’ve been working on myself in IC, too. I have not initiated any contact with H and blocked him on social media. I’ve also refrained from asking mutual friends in Country B about him. I’m in limbo. And I’m deciding to not make any decisions for the time being.
You are doing some very good stuff. Well done!
Keep at it. Focus on you. Give H time and space. Lots of both!
I am aware that affairs are common during MLC. I try not to torture myself with speculation, but I have braced myself for the possibility.
Yep, staggeringly common. And affairs mean nothing! The other person is a symptom, a band-aid to a broken person. The affair partner is likely broken too.
I am really torn. I have a good support network here in Country A. Keeping a PMA and GALing would be easier if I stayed. But it feels like I would really be shutting the door on my marriage if I don’t go back to Country B.
Some other possible hard to hear advice. Stay in country A. PMA and GALing is easier. Good support network. Etc. Ask yourself, if you weren’t married, had no H, would you move to Country B or stay in Country A?
As you said, it feels like you’d be shutting the door on your marriage. Feelings are fleeting. You’re not shutting the door, H shut his door. You can stand for your marriage in Country A.
Make major life decisions using logic and reason, keep emotion out of it. Feelings change, and decisions based upon feelings will have their “reasons” changed. Emotional decisions often lead to regrets.
Do talk to a lawyer. Gather information. You do not need to act upon it. However, knowledge is power. Find out your rights. Which country you should divorce in, if it came to it. And so on.
Ask any questions you like. You are among folks who understand. There are many kind and compassionate people with much hard-earned wisdom on these boards.
We all need a certain amount of understand before we can move forward, detach, and let go.
I look forward to talking to you again.
Walk with grace.
D
Hi DnJ. Wow, you were ninja quick with the welcome thread. Thanks so much. Is it ok that I posted in Newcomers? It seems more active than the MLC board. If Newcomers is the wrong place to be, could I be moved to the MLC board?
I'm working on detachment. I am trying not to take this personally. I know I didn't break him, I know I can't fix him. I was a bit of a fixer during our relationship.
I do think H is depressed and, looking back, I realized I'd missed signs over the past two years. He's been complaining about living in Country B, work, aging, sleeping problems, Youtube content (yes), nothing good on Netflix, so many things. But I know that he is the only one who can address his issues.
I miss him terribly. But I guess it's kind of a relief to not be subjected to his moods all the time. (And I remind myself that, indeed, H is giving me the gift of time. I have SO much time and space to work on myself.)
Detachment would be much harder if we were living together, I think. Because of our separation, detaching, PMA, GAL are the only things I can do. Yes, these things help me maintain my sanity. But I don't know what else I can do to improve our relationship dynamics. H doesn't initiate contact. Nor do I. There is virtually no interaction. We don't even live in the same country. What can I do but let him go?
That said, I know MLC takes a long time—years. I am only 3 months out from BD. I suspect MLC has been going on for two years already though. So maybe it's a good thing that we have so much distance between us? This way, he has allllllll the space he needs to sort out his issues.
^Ah! I posted my response before I saw yours! You really are a ninja.
If I had no H, I would stay in Country A. I definitely am leaning toward staying in Country A.
Bomb drop was just a few days before his birthday. He's been complaining of feeling old for the past couple of years.
As for a possible trigger within 12-18 months of bomb drop. He got a very major promotion 1.5 years ago. He was very stressed leading up to it—the application process is extremely grueling. Anyway, he got it, and it was a huge relief. He is very young to be where he is in his career. He's extremely accomplished. After the promotion, he was unhappy and said that he didn't have any more goals. Since then, he's been feeling a bit stagnant. His started a new project that hasn't gotten very encouraging feedback.
I also wonder if visiting his family in his home country (he is not from either Country A or B) in the weeks leading up to bomb drop could have dredged up some FOO issues. He hadn't seen his family in 3 years because of COVID, and he has a very complicated relationship with them. His parents married and divorced each other twice (during his teen years no less), and his dad has alcohol problems. [Edit: We attended his sister's wedding during this trip, too.]
I forgot to mention in my first post that in the days before bomb drop (during the meltdown), he talked about wanting to quit his job and buy a farm in his home country. He knows nothing about farming and hates bugs. At first, I thought he was joking, so I laughed, and he became very hurt. Then he angrily acknowledged, "I know, I am having reckless ideas!"
Funny thing about the apple for dinner. That really felt like it came out of nowhere. But now that I am writing this, I realize that when were talking about starting a family, he said that he'd cook more and eat more healthily to be a good example for the kids. So maybe there's a connection there.
The thing is, his diet isn't that bad at all. I've never told him I thought he ate poorly. And yet—this is another realization I'm having just now—he started expressing anxiety about his eating habits in the past year or so. Which is also classic MLC.
Interesting that you say your ex also said similar things, DnJ. It makes me feel less alone and crazy to hear that.
Hello m
Ninja quick. Lol. I happened to be checking and saw you posted.
You are fine to post in newcomers. You are correct, newcomers does have more traffic. Not to worry, the folks on the MLC boards do read newcomers too. Most folks visit all the different forums. If you ever do want to move over to MLC just let me know.
It’s pretty normal when looking back to see all the signs we missed. Small indications of something brewing within our spouse. Don’t beat yourself up, you honestly had no idea what was about to explode.
The basic principle of dealing with a spouse’s MLC is letting go. H is angry. He is projecting on to you, and blaming you for his pain. Realize he cannot handle his emotions right now. He cannot handle being at fault. So, with such torment, he looks around and sees you. Poof, you must be the cause he figures, in his addled mind.
Give lots of time and space. Let him burn through his anger. At some point, hopefully, he realizes “hey, marching hasn’t been around for a while AND I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps, she wasn’t to blame after all.” Then, with some good fortune, he would look inward and work on his issues.
His path is on his time line, and you weren’t invited along on this journey with him. You’ve got your own journey to traverse now. The future is unknown and unwritten, perhaps your paths converge and merge again.
I don't know what else I can do to improve our relationship dynamics. H doesn't initiate contact. Nor do I. There is virtually no interaction. We don't even live in the same country. What can I do but let him go?
I empathize. (((Hugs)))
Go dim/dark, and keep conversations to business. I realize with no kids there are not too many reasons to reach out.
Did you read the lighthouse story yet? Its link is in the welcoming thread. Second last one. Pretty good direction in my opinion. You can keep the door ajar, a light in the window, and live your life. And love your life.
D
Sorry you’re here 😢
Welcome to the boards. It’s a safe space, full of wonderful people who will help you navigate this journey.
(By the way, yes, I am aware that affairs are common during MLC. I try not to torture myself with speculation, but I have braced myself for the possibility.)
I don’t think I’d consider it a “possibility” after reading your post. I think I’d almost call it “a dead certainty”.
Keep coming back and keep posting. It’s a wild, long ride this divorce business. You seem very level headed and calm so far … that will stand you in good stead.
DnJ, thanks so much for the wise words and encouragement. I hope to be his lighthouse, but how do I do this when there is such limited contact? During our business communications (only ever through text), I am polite and efficient. Is there a way I can show him that the door is open without pursuing? I suppose he knows that I don't want a D...
Kind18, thanks for the welcome. It's hurts to think about an affair. But I comfort myself with the wisdom shared here that MLC spouses are incapable of having healthy relationships with anyone in their current state and that the APs are very troubled people. I haven't asked H about it.
Yep, quite the rollercoaster, this MLC-divorce business. My head knows that I just need to keep moving forward, take things day by day, and focus on myself. My heart still longs for H and comes up with unlikely reconciliation scenarios.
(For example, what if H starts changing his mind over the holidays??) (I know, I know, that would be way too soon in the MLC process.)
It's taking time for my heart to catch up with my head. I'm aware of this lag and definitely do not want to make any big decisions from a place of high emotion—unlike, ahem, our MLCers.
Are you exercising much? It’s best to really wear your body out physically every day.
It is the best way to help you cope with the grief/emotion of bomb day and aftermath.
Yes, I'm exercising. And I completely agree. Being physically worn out at the end of the day is so satisfying.
I've read your post on exercise, by the way, and it's a great resource. I've also read a bit from your threads, and wow, you went through something really extreme. And here you are on the other side. Surviving and thriving stories like yours are very encouraging.
Good Morning m
H certainly has had a dose of life events recently. A birthday and feeling old. A big promotion and after the rush of accomplishment the harsh realization of no more goals. (Of course, there is always more to strive for. H is just not seeing that.) The loss of encouraging feedback, a real thing as one moves upwards on the business and corporate ladders. And yes, feeling stagnant with things. Tie in a visit to a somewhat estranged family or perhaps just more strained relationship. Lots of pressures inside him.
MLCers do not have well established coping skills. Their repertoire of strategies for managing and reducing unpleasant emotions is quite limited. Stunted back when they were small. Usually some traumatic event from a childhood authority figure, and having no voice and/or being shut down when trying to speak up, lead to burying things. And things buried alive will come back to haunt.
It’s really sad when young children get damaged and then push that down into themselves. Their egocentric view of the world where everything is for them, and things that go wrong are their fault.
It is interesting that H admits he knows he is having reckless ideas. Thinking of quitting his job and buying a farm. Yep, he is searching for something to ease the unhappiness.
They will drop clues. However, those snippets are a tangled disjointed web. Especially to the LBS working to see what is going on. Like I said, we all require a certain amount of understanding before we can let go. Perfectly normal. Just don’t follow the rabbit hole too deeply. Most LBS are thrust into analytical mode during BD and that needs to be assuaged.
Interesting that you say your ex also said similar things, DnJ. It makes me feel less alone and crazy to hear that.
You’re not crazy. Nor alone.
Though it sure feels that way for a while. Doesn’t it?
My W confided in me days after BD, that for months she cried all the time while the kids were at school and I was at work. She felt so empty. So lost. She thought she was going crazy.
Then her grand epiphany - a crazy person wouldn’t think that! And with that, she burnt down her life and started anew. She threw me away. Tossed aside our four kids like they were used clothes getting dumped at the donation box. And ran off with the guy that delivered eggs to the house. Our neighbour from a mile south.
All this happened in the span of three hours during thanksgivings dinner. She stood up made her grand announcement of “You, DnJ, get the house, the yard, and the kids. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.” Right there in front of my parents and our kids and boy’s GF. I had seven witnesses to this unfathomable event.
Of course, that’s our perspective. She languished in her torment for months and months. Silently. Having no words or understanding of what and why is going on in her mind. They really cannot speak about it for they have no vocabulary to express the dark emptiness.
I hope to be his lighthouse, but how do I do this when there is such limited contact? During our business communications (only ever through text), I am polite and efficient. Is there a way I can show him that the door is open without pursuing? I suppose he knows that I don't want a D...
You be a lighthouse, by being the lighthouse. A lighthouse doesn’t pursue, doesn’t run about looking for a ship and sailors to save. It stands. It is a stanchion. Stands strong against the storm, shinning brightly.
You do not become
his lighthouse. You really become your own. You stand for you and your values.
You can attempt to show him the door is open. Attempt to show all manner of things. He will only see (or admit to) what he wishes to see, for now. Besides, they do keep an eye on us.
I recently spoke with my XW at our son’s wedding. Her and I hadn’t spoken in over two years. She blurted out a litany of boy scout type qualities and morals about me. Spoke highly of me, saying the kids get their greatness from me. My intelligence, compassion, ethics, morals, etc. I was shocked and tongue tied not knowing how to respond. I just thanked her for her kind words.
She knew of my pending retirement. They do keep tabs on us and their old life.
Days later I did send a text to her, letting her know she did an awesome job raised the kids and I never demonized her.
Our path is - at first - very counterintuitive. It will feel incorrect. Goes against one’s programmed ideas.
Remain kind and cordial in your communications. He knows you do not want a divorce. No need to tell him again.
Have you seen a lawyer? As mentioned, just for gathering information. Knowing your rights and responsibilities.
Did you get all your stuff back? All the items you shipped over to the new place.
Do you have joint accounts? Joint credit cards? Marital assets? Investment funds, etc?
There is a business side of your path, along with the healing side.
MLCers are notorious for running behaviours. Partaking in behaviours and vices in a futile attempt to find that lost youth they feel they were cheated out of.
Wild spending is a rather common one. Plenty of stories of joint accounts being bled dry and investments burnt up, all while the LBS was unaware. Get a handle on “all” your finances if you have’t already done so. And be prepared to move your “half” of joint assets if things start to go south. Also remember, you are liable for joint credit cards and loans. Oh, some of these MLCers rack up wild bills and expect us to pay.
Drinking, drugs, illicit and/or illegal activities. Anything to find the next rush. Anything to feel something. Anything to push away their emptiness.
Affairs are also commonplace. MLCers are consumed by depression. Desperate. It’s not so much they are seeking happiness as much as trying to end their unhappiness. They are so misguided trying to fill that void within by external means. They do equate sex with happy. And that rush wears off quickly too.
These lost souls feel pleasure, excitement, risk, thrills, and such will bring them their peace. It just keeps digging the hole they’re in.
They run so they do not face themselves. Yet, for all their running, there they are. Laying in bed, in the dark still of night, their demons will play. One cannot outrun themselves.
D
marching,
I am really torn. I have a good support network here in Country A. Keeping a PMA and GALing would be easier if I stayed. But it feels like I would really be shutting the door on my marriage if I don’t go back to Country B.
Do NOT move to Country B. Period.
Stay in Country A where you'd prefer to be if H wasn't in the picture and with have the support network and GAL activities.
Your H is likely in an affair in Country B and you moving there and pressuring him is only going to disrupt your life and not end well for your R.
So maybe it's a good thing that we have so much distance between us? This way, he has allllllll the space he needs to sort out his issues.
^YES! You got it.
H knows how to find you if he really wants to. He's going on a journey you want now part of, and more importantly you can't control or fix. Let him figure him out. You go have a live life to its fullest.
You've almost certainly not heard the last from him. It might not be next month, it might be in a year or two years, but...make him wonder why he's not hearing from you. Make him wonder why you're having such a great life without him and why he's an idiot for throwing you away. And, most importantly, make him wonder if he even has a chance to get you back.
I’m in my early 30s, H is in his late 30s. We’ve been together for over 10 years, married for 7. No kids.
I have to be practical and say that without kids and at your age you less attachment and a freedom few on this board have. Take advantage of that. Live where you want to live, go out and do whatever makes you happy. Don't get caught up in tying your happiness to H's MLC and/or affair drama.
Two weeks ago, while I was on my business trip, H asked if we could start the divorce paperwork, and which country I wanted to do it in. I told him I need more time to think, because I haven’t even decided where I will move next.
If he's asking about D paperwork it's serious. What are the finanical implications? E.g., Who makes more money, did you have pre-marital assets...etc. Make sure you understand if filing in one country is more favorable to you than another.
Also, you don't need to give him reasons anymore. He's firing you as his W. Just say "I'll need to think about it". Nothing about the why of being shocked or upset or anything.
It’s been 3 months since BD. I am a lot calmer now than I was in those early days.
Good. The initial phase is tough. Your emotions are running high and days seem like months. It's amazing how a little time makes a big difference.
I am not prepared to make any big decisions about moving or legal stuff.
No rush. Take your time and make logical decisions, not emotional ones.
Right now, I’m just trying to catch up on work and take care of myself. GAL activities: exercise, talking to friends, reading the forums, reading novels. I’ve been working on myself in IC, too.
Awesome! Keep up all of that, especially the exercise & GAL.
I have not initiated any contact with H and blocked him on social media. I’ve also refrained from asking mutual friends in Country B about him.
Good. Well done.
The basic principle of dealing with a spouse’s MLC is letting go. H is angry. He is projecting on to you, and blaming you for his pain. Realize he cannot handle his emotions right now. He cannot handle being at fault. So, with such torment, he looks around and sees you. Poof, you must be the cause he figures, in his addled mind.
Give lots of time and space. Let him burn through his anger. At some point, hopefully, he realizes “hey, marching hasn’t been around for a while AND I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps, she wasn’t to blame after all.” Then, with some good fortune, he would look inward and work on his issues.
His path is on his time line, and you weren’t invited along on this journey with him. You’ve got your own journey to traverse now. The future is unknown and unwritten, perhaps your paths converge and merge again.
Lots of great advice by DnJ. I'd especially read this particular snippet a few times.
DnJ, wow, what a transformation in your ex—from utter cruelty at the Thanksgiving Dinner From Hell to being vulnerable and kind at your son's wedding. Thanks so much for sharing. I really have no idea what's going on in H's mind, so hearing about your experience helps me get a sense of just how chaotic the MLC brain must be. It helps with detaching with compassion. Non-foggy-brained H would be appalled by current H's behavior.
My stuff is still with H in Country B because I don't have my own place at the moment (I'm staying with family).
BL42, thanks so much for reading and responding. I really appreciate your tip re: not explaining myself to him and will keep that in mind for future communication. I hear what you're saying about my age and not having kids. It's true, I have a lot of freedom now. It's not what I wanted, but...I guess it's not bad.
As for the questions about legal matters—yes, I'm getting legal advice. Absurd that it has come to this so quickly.
marching,
I hear what you're saying about my age and not having kids. It's true, I have a lot of freedom now. It's not what I wanted, but...I guess it's not bad.
I completely get the "It's not what I wanted". Most here do. But, you can only control you so...go out and make the most of the cards you were dealt and create an amazing life. Sounds like you have a pretty cool job going to different countries to have some adventures and make the most of your freedom. IF H comes back, great. If not? Great too! You're going to have an incredible life either way.
The most attractive thing to someone who's leaving you behind is to smile and say "Good luck!" and then go off and be happy and love life. Then they just may start wondering what in the world they were thinking to leave you in the first place.
Thanks for the words of encouragement, BL42.
I have some questions I think already have the answers to. But hell, I've been ruminating on them for several weeks and might as well externalize them.
How should I handle communication with the in-laws? We don't chat regularly, but we do follow each other on social media. I know they are still looking at my updates. I'm wondering in particular about whether I should say goodbye to them (especially my MIL) and then unfollow them. Maybe it's premature for that? Do I just not engage with their posts? We usually send holiday and New Year's messages to each other. Feels weird to say nothing. I don't know what H has told them, or if he has said anything at all. I don't know if he will visit them for the holidays.
Not so deep down, do I have an ulterior motive? Absolutely. Not to be a tattle-tale, exactly, but I *am* worried about H, and want to express my concerns to MIL. Is this controlling behavior? Yes, I have a feeling it is...
marching,
How should I handle communication with the in-laws? We don't chat regularly, but we do follow each other on social media. I know they are still looking at my updates.
Just my opinion, but I'd keep the status quo. What's the impetus for change? There's no rush, especially if you're not in regular communication as it is.
I'm wondering in particular about whether I should say goodbye to them (especially my MIL) and then unfollow them.
I would not do this. It'll come off as pressure on him (via his family), and likely will not be received well. Plus HE needs to decide to change his path - it's unlikely they'll be able to do that as your proxy (if they'd even try).
Maybe it's premature for that?
Yes, I think so.
Do I just not engage with their posts?
Seems reasonable.
We usually send holiday and New Year's messages to each other. Feels weird to say nothing.
If they reach out to say Happy Holidays no reason you can't give a polite response in kind.
I don't know what H has told them, or if he has said anything at all.
Not your role to inform him. He'll communicate on him time.
I don't know if he will visit them for the holidays.
Not your concern.
Not so deep down, do I have an ulterior motive? Absolutely. Not to be a tattle-tale, exactly, but I *am* worried about H, and want to express my concerns to MIL. Is this controlling behavior? Yes, I have a feeling it is...
Certainly comes off on this side as an effort to get his family pressuring, which is typically not recommended here.
Yeah, I was hoping I could sensitize MIL to H's possible depression so that she could gently and subtly support him if necessary, not like, stage an intervention (without my involvement being revealed). But yes, I suspected that it would be better to let things be. It's H's own journey. I understand that MWD says that we shouldn't try to get friends or family to help. Thanks for your input, BL42.
Furious. Need to vent. I gave up my old apartment, got rid of a lot things (that I now wish I didn't), and shipped my stuff to move to Country B. I am now crashing with relatives but can't stay here forever and will need to get my own place in another city across the country (where my work is based). This city is notorious for expensive housing and the apartment I gave up was a bargain. It will be very difficult to find anything near that price range at that location. I have to set up a completely new household. Meanwhile, H can simply stay in "his" home. Logistically, nothing in his life is disrupted. Getting rid of me is such a CONVENIENT change for him. Idiot. Coward. I can't access any compassion for him right now. He said to let him know if I need money, and he certainly owes me that much. I hate to ask and have to explain the logistical mess he's created.
^This is an emotion driven post.
Yes, that sounds horrifically unfair. You must feel so uncertain about the future.
Please don’t respond to him or contact him for 24 hours. Humans never respond well with emotion.
Allow the situation and your thoughts to settle. Once you’re back in control of your emotions and fight/flight response, and only then, should you engage with him using the rational and measured part of your brain to try and find a solution.
marching,
I agree w/Kind18 about the emotionally-driven post and the cooling down period for contact.
Well done coming here to vent as opposed to firing off an email or text to him while you were charged up. That's the good news...you're funneling those emotions into a healthy channel instead of directing them at H.
I agree. Vent here as much as you can. We all understand.
HUGS
Thanks so much for all the support. It's such a relief to be able to share my frustrations with people who get it.
Absolutely. I'll vent here, I'll vent to my friends, I'll push hard during my workouts. Alien H is not allowed access into my inner life. Don't worry, I take my time whenever I communicate with him. I always let things sit and think things over (maybe too much) before sending him anything.
Funny how I posted about my mindset re: communication with H, and the same day, he texts me.
Less than two weeks ago, he said he understood that I need time to sort out my living situation before I can think about legal stuff. Yesterday, he said he "needs to know how to proceed," as it's been several months already [since he asked for a divorce]. I noticed he sent this text somewhat late at night.
I know the advice here is to err on the side of responding with the bare minimum of information, but boundaries are important, too, right? I think he's crossing a boundary here by pressuring and wanting everything to happen according to his wishes. Can I calmly explain the complicated and stressful situation he's put me in? Should I ask him what he means (to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what he means by "proceed")?
I really appreciate any and all help!
Hello M
It’s a good idea to implement a 24-48 hour rule. Give yourself 24-48 hour before responding to H. That way you will respond instead of react. This buffer will also allow time to clarify your logical reasoned position and consult others if need be. Remember his wants and wishes are not an emergency on your part.
Next. Realize you are on two paths. Divorce - the proceeding, the negotiating, etc. - treat it as a business deal gone sideways. It’s business. Keep emotions out of it.
I know you don’t want a divorce. Yet, stonewalling one’s spouse is usually not a great idea. Currently, H seems eager to proceed. Therefore, he may offer a better settlement than if forced to wait. The flip side, more time yields possible change of heart with H.
My opinion, is any dragging things out will not be beneficial. H is in a crisis and highly unlikely to awaken any time soon. He seems calm and wanting to proceed. Delay will likely bring ire from H and a lot of irrational behaviour along with much less favourable settlement. I’d see what he is offering. Don’t push for a divorce, yet do not block it either. (You don’t have to sign or anything. Just seeing where he is.)
Maybe a text like:
Hi H.
My living situation is still not sorted out, and I haven’t been able to really look into things. However, I am willing to listen. What are you proposing for a settlement?
M
See what he comes back with. You’ve spoken to a lawyer. You know what your entitled to. If he is offering better, probably should seriously consider it. Always run everything by a lawyer before agreeing or signing anything.
Also make a few lists. One of things you must have. One of things you really don’t need. And one of things that are negotiable.
The first list are those hills you’d die on. The second are things you’d not even fight about. The third list and second list are items that you can use during negotiations to get what is on your list #1.
Partners that are leaving, especially a MLCer, have different items on their lists than the LBS. For example: They’ll give up kids for cash. Or give up spousal support for lump sum cash or speedy divorce. It really is amazing what is suddenly most important to these folks.
A tip for negotiating with a MLCer. Come at things sideways. Their usual default is to go against whatever you propose. Even if it is in their favour, they will go against it because the LBS suggested it. Remember, the MLCer is blaming the LBS. That irrational position and belief taints their entire world view.
If they feel like they came up with the idea, they will usually run with it. So it best to have them blurt out their wants and massage things from there. They usually are quite gleeful when getting their way, and feeling they are winning and in control. And like a kid, they just can’t keep a secret. My XW would call me after meeting with her lawyer and tell me her strategy. Tell me about her arguing with her own lawyer. Tell me about her having OM present at these meetings too.
I drank plenty of the STFU smoothie and let her chatter away. This loquaciousness of her’s did not last very long. However while it did, she was pleased as punch to be lording her new wonderful life over me and offering me advice on how to be a better partner. No where close to as good as her, but I could maybe get to average. She’d tell me I’d never have a great relationship like her’s, but she’d be willing to tell me all my faults. And she’d tell me what she wanted.
I kept mostly quiet, didn’t explode, and in the end - XW got what she asked for. A quick settlement where she grabbed quick cash and tossed everything else away.
It’s just a business deal gone sideways. Treat it as such.
The emotional healing path is where you invest yourself.
D
Maybe a text like:
Hi H.
My living situation is still not sorted out, and I haven’t been able to really look into things. However, I am willing to listen. What are you proposing for a settlement?
M
I really like this.
(I was thinking hard last night on how to respond, but couldn't come up with something. DNJ hit the nail on the head)
marching, I admittedly only skimmed your OP, I will go back and read it in depth at some point.
But here is my initial response:
You guys have been through a lot. Maybe it is an MLC, maybe it isn't. I know we LBS like to get to a diagnosis because then we can find a fix. At least that is our thinking. The problem is that there is no "fix". Especially if it is an MLC. MLCs can last decades. They can last the rest of a person's life.
But you found the forum and that is good, because now you can focus on yourself. The best advice I received in my own situation was to remove my focus form her and what she was saying and doing, and focus on me. And DBing gave me things to focus on: getting a life, going out and recapturing who I was and who I wanted to be. 180ing and self-improvements, becoming the best version of myself that I could be. Becoming a person only a fool would leave! And finally emotionally detaching, learning to detach my emotions and responses from her words and actions.
Those are difficult at first, but the beauty of them even when you aren't good at them, is it gives you something to focus on! Rather than focusing on him and what he is doing and whether it is a MLC or not, focus on those three DBing efforts.
All the other advice you've been getting is good too. And falls into one of those three broad categories. For instance, exercising is both GAL and self-improving.
Use this as an opportunity to move your life forward. He'll either come around and want to be part of that, or he won't.
DnJ, thanks so much for the advice on how to respond, and R2C, thanks so much for stopping by my thread and thinking about my situation!
My response borrowed from DnJ's suggestion. It didn't follow the principle of less-is-more; I also explained myself a bit (contrary to what BL42 advised earlier). But I think it worked.
Paraphrase of the convo:
M: I hear what you are saying about wanting to proceed. I'm sorry, I cannot give you a response right now. [A few sentences giving a high-level description of the complex uncertainties of my life since BD and saying that resolving them will take time. Said I could give more details if he wants. And I am willing to listen if he has thoughts.]
H: I understand. And I am sorry about it too. [Said he'll wait until I let him know and that he won't bring it up again.]
M: Thank you.
Funny how this very brief text exchange brought up so many emotions. Relief because I truly don't have the bandwidth right now to begin an international divorce process. Anger because 1) H said that he already understood 10 days ago and 2) his apology is crap. He didn't even spell out what he's sorry for. And if he truly felt sorry, he would have for example, um, not KICKED ME OUT OF OUR APARTMENT and left me to fend for myself in a foreign country. He would have offered help for my current issues. (Actions, not words!) Hope because...hey, I slowed things down, changed the tone of our interaction, and maybe got him to wake up a little? (Before you come at me with the 2x4...I know, having expectations and mind-reading are BAD).
Then I cried out of frustration for having worried about this for so many hours. For things being so strained with the person who, just days before BD, was telling me that he loved me, was so happy about setting up our new home. I felt the pain that hits me every so often: the pain of feeling that don't have a home.
And now the divorce ball is in my court (unless H changes his mind, again). Now what? What is my plan going forward? (Apart from the usual GAL and DB stuff).
SteveLW, thanks so much for checking my thread and for the encouraging words.
I totally get what you're saying about the LBS's tendency to want to label or diagnose their spouse to make sense of a crazy situation. Just last night, I indulged in even more armchair diagnosing of my H, ha! However, I'm aware that I'm not a mental health professional and there's debate as to whether MLC is even a helpful concept. Plus, we can never really know what's going on in another person's head. Whatever is going on with my H, it has brought his lizard brain to the fore, and I know that there's nothing I can do to fix him. And it might take years for him to sort things out, if he ever does...the best way forward is to simply live my life.
Journaling to get these thoughts out of my head:
-I ran into an old classmate I haven't seen in many years. She was walking with her husband, pushing a stroller. She introduced me to her baby. It made me sad. H and I were making concrete plans about having children just before BD.
-I am still young, there's plenty of time for me to have children. Right? Do I even really want children.
-I never thought I wanted children until I fell in love with H.
-Was I really prepared to have a family and settle down in Country B? Would I have been okay with narrowing down my career possibilities to that one place?
-Actually, Country B is a good place to be for someone with my specialization. Ironically, I might end up there in the near future for professional reasons.
-I feel lost. I don't feel like I have a home.
I'm going through a bit of an identity crisis myself.
On a lighter note, this experience had strengthened my friendships. My friends are awesome. I am so grateful for them.
I'm going through a bit of an identity crisis myself.
A great 180 opportunity! Set out to find out who you are and what you want. IC would a terrific start on that journey!
Thanks, SteveLW. Yep, I'm in IC. And trying to stay positive and to think about this as an opportunity. An unwanted one, but an opportunity nonetheless.
I'd appreciate any thoughts from the wise people here on what to do next, now that H has apparently given me the reins on the divorce. It's weird position to be in. I definitely prefer it to not being rushed and pressured, but now I am supposed to take the lead on a divorce I don't want?! My hunch is to do nothing while I sort out other aspects of my life, which will take at least another 2 months.
That said, I am wondering if this could be an opportunity to eventually set up mediation appointments that could in practice serve as discernment and quasi marriage counseling. I've been reading Nitty's threads and it seems that having a good mediator made a big difference in turning around her sitch.
marching,
I'd appreciate any thoughts from the wise people here on what to do next, now that H has apparently given me the reins on the divorce. It's weird position to be in.
Is there a financial benefit to staying married or getting divorced, or does it not matter? If you're benefited by staying legally married (E.g., he makes way more money or something) than I'd let him do any pursuit of the D. If staying married will hurt you financially you may want to move it forward. If there's no real impact, than you can take your time and decide how to proceed. Think of this as the "business" side of the R. Locking in your financial/business outcome is separate to whether or not you two end up in a relationship going forward.
I definitely prefer it to not being rushed and pressured, but now I am supposed to take the lead on a divorce I don't want?! My hunch is to do nothing while I sort out other aspects of my life, which will take at least another 2 months.
You don't HAVE to do anything. You do what's best for you - he wants to D you and has therefore removed himself from your consideration for now.
Marching - this is his divorce. Let him take the lead, however long that takes. Work on your own GAL in the meantime, but this is his gig - not yours.
I feel quite adamant about this.
Thanks, SteveLW. Yep, I'm in IC. And trying to stay positive and to think about this as an opportunity. An unwanted one, but an opportunity nonetheless.
I'd appreciate any thoughts from the wise people here on what to do next, now that H has apparently given me the reins on the divorce. It's weird position to be in. I definitely prefer it to not being rushed and pressured, but now I am supposed to take the lead on a divorce I don't want?! My hunch is to do nothing while I sort out other aspects of my life, which will take at least another 2 months.
That said, I am wondering if this could be an opportunity to eventually set up mediation appointments that could in practice serve as discernment and quasi marriage counseling. I've been reading Nitty's threads and it seems that having a good mediator made a big difference in turning around her sitch.
I would not take the lead on the divorce. My advice would be to do as you say, nothing and sort out other aspects of your life. If it comes up again just firmly restate that you do not want the divorce, that you will not be helping with the divorce, but you will not stand in his way if that is what he wants.
WASs are notoriously lazy when it comes to D. I think there are a lot of reasons for that, but I certainly would not actively participate in a D that you do not want.
As far as Nitty's situation, hers is not yours. In my situation, my WAW went from dead set on D to wanting to save the marriage in a matter of weeks. I caution newbies that my situation was an anomaly and that they cannot look at my situation as hope that their will turn around in less than 4 months. I say the same for Nitty. First, good mediators are few and far between. Most want to get a D settlement mediated and move on. They have no incentive for the couple to stay together. Hoping mediation turns into discernment and quasi MC is not something you can put a lot of hope and faith in.
It doesn't mean that there is no hope in your situation as I believe all do. But do not take the lead on the D thinking you can use mediation to manipulate your WAS back to the marriage. That is a fraught expectation.
Focus on good DBing principles. That is your best way forward.
BL42, bttrfly, SteveLW—thanks so much for your feedback.
A D doesn't make a huge difference for me financially.
I definitely don't want to do anything that pushes a D forward. Maybe I am being thick, but I am not sure how I can avoid moving the D along without being passive aggressive or manipulative—and pushing H further away in the process.
H has asked me about starting the paperwork twice and backed off both times after I explained that I have more immediate things to sort out. The most recent time, he said that he would wait for me to reach out first and would not ask me about it again. (But who knows, maybe he will start pressuring me. Again.)
That's why I feel like he's given me the reins on this D. If I simply *never* follow up about starting the legal process, then I come off as standing in his way. Hence my admittedly manipulative fantasy of hiring a mediator who is secretly a MC. SteveLW, I take your point about not using other DBer's experiences as a map for my own. No expectations, no expectations...
I am mentally kicking myself for sort of agreeing to the divorce two months ago—during a text conversation, he was worried that I said that I wouldn't give him the divorce, and I said "That's not what I'm saying, I saying I need more time to process everything." So, I didn't explicitly disagree, but I didn't definitively agree, either. [For context: H referred to the ending of our marriage as a "break up." I said a divorce is a whole different order of magnitude than a break up. And then H freaked out.]
Hello m
I definitely don't want to do anything that pushes a D forward. Maybe I am being thick, but I am not sure how I can avoid moving the D along without being passive aggressive or manipulative—and pushing H further away in the process.
How to avoid: You don’t want a divorce - so don’t do anything towards that. Let H do all the heavy lifting.
No passive aggressive, no manipulation. You don’t bring it up. When H brings it up - “I do not wish to proceed with a divorce at this time”. That’s it. No further discussion.
Use the 24-48 hour rule. That also keeps communication to the written form. Another good thing for detaching and making decisions utilizing logic and reason, instead of reacting out of emotions and fear.
That's why I feel like he's given me the reins on this D. If I simply *never* follow up about starting the legal process, then I come off as standing in his way.
Not true. You are simple not pursuing it. H is free to do as he wishes. You are not blocking his actions.
Something interesting in these situations, our spouse knows us best (next to ourselves of course). And we know them best. Well “known”, after they burn their lives down. Anyhow, H knows you, and is using your emotions against you. I suspect he realizes you will feel guilty and feel like you are blocking this. Don’t fall for it. He is trying to get you to be the bad guy. Let him own his divorce.
Hence my admittedly manipulative fantasy of hiring a mediator who is secretly a MC.
A word on manipulation. Or trying to steer and head your spouse in a certain direction.
No one can see all ends. The best intentions might end in disaster. You just don’t know. And you do not want the responsibility of H’s future on your soul. Give him to God. Do not try to control his outcome.
One of my many reasons I have peace and a rather speedy situation. I did not manipulate W’s path. I did not want that on my head. Imagine having to live knowing I messed up trying to coerce her into something.
Don’t place boulders in his path. Do not demonize him. Be better, not bitter. And let him walk his path. No secret MC mediator. Have faith and let fate do its thing.
I am mentally kicking myself for sort of agreeing to the divorce two months ago—during a text conversation, he was worried that I said that I wouldn't give him the divorce, and I said "That's not what I'm saying, I saying I need more time to process everything." So, I didn't explicitly disagree, but I didn't definitively agree, either.
Don’t read too much into that. You didn’t specifically say either way.
If/when it comes to a head, tell him directly then. “I don’t want a divorce. And you are free to do what you will.”
D
marching,
A D doesn't make a huge difference for me financially.
If there's no advantage filing in one country vs. the other, and if there's no real financial difference in between married or divorced, then there's no real motivation for you to drive it and you can ride out the status quo.
I definitely don't want to do anything that pushes a D forward. Maybe I am being thick, but I am not sure how I can avoid moving the D along without being passive aggressive or manipulative—and pushing H further away in the process.
If you don't want to, than don't. I agree w/SteveLW, bttrfly, and DnJ. This is your H's desire, not yours - so let him push it forward if he wants. You can even tell him "I don't want a divorce and would like to work on the marriage, so I've decided not to pursue any paperwork - but I won't stand in your way if that is what you want." That's not passive-aggressive; that's being honest and straightforward about your stance.
DNJ is a very experienced and wise DBer. Take this advice very seriously.
Any responses within 24 hours are likely to be highly emotive, steeped in trying to pressure/trap/punish them and completely the opposite of general DB principles.
I’ve read hundreds of accounts where newbies regret getting into a heated or emotional discussion and regret not thinking about things, coming to the board for advice, and then responding calmly and rationally.
I’m yet to read ONE post where someone attributes the loss of their marriage to not responding quickly enough.
DnJ, BL42, and Kind18, I really appreciate your advice. I've filed away the suggested for responses should H bring up D paperwork again. Thankfully (well, if H sticks to his word), I won't need to use them, at least for a while.
It's funny, after BD, I naturally went dark and have been really good about following the 24-48 hr rule. I was (still am) so hurt that I just didn't want to initiate contact and invite more rejection. And I take my time responding to texts because they are so few and far between, each exchange feels very high-stakes.
I am starting to plan my move. I'm staying with my parents through the holidays. After that, I'm heading to a city on the other side of the country, where my work is based and my friends live. Don't know when I will ever go back to Country B, where H lives.
I agree with my friends, therapist, and the DBers here that NOT going back to Country B is the best choice for my mental health. Still, I feel sad about it. I am accepting the feeling and letting it pass...
BL42, bttrfly, SteveLW—thanks so much for your feedback.
A D doesn't make a huge difference for me financially.
I definitely don't want to do anything that pushes a D forward. Maybe I am being thick, but I am not sure how I can avoid moving the D along without being passive aggressive or manipulative—and pushing H further away in the process.
H has asked me about starting the paperwork twice and backed off both times after I explained that I have more immediate things to sort out. The most recent time, he said that he would wait for me to reach out first and would not ask me about it again. (But who knows, maybe he will start pressuring me. Again.)
That's why I feel like he's given me the reins on this D. If I simply *never* follow up about starting the legal process, then I come off as standing in his way. Hence my admittedly manipulative fantasy of hiring a mediator who is secretly a MC. SteveLW, I take your point about not using other DBer's experiences as a map for my own. No expectations, no expectations...
I am mentally kicking myself for sort of agreeing to the divorce two months ago—during a text conversation, he was worried that I said that I wouldn't give him the divorce, and I said "That's not what I'm saying, I saying I need more time to process everything." So, I didn't explicitly disagree, but I didn't definitively agree, either. [For context: H referred to the ending of our marriage as a "break up." I said a divorce is a whole different order of magnitude than a break up. And then H freaked out.]
SOrry, just noticed this response. So my question is what is more important to you? Not being the one to drive the divorce forward? Or not coming across as manipulative or passive-aggressive?
It sounds to me at its core you are trying to walk a very fine line: not look like you are stalling the D, but at the same time stalling the D by not stalling the D. It is very confusing.
Being crystal clear on what you want, what you will do and what you will not do is not passive-aggressive in my book. It isn't even close to being manipulative. Trying to steer things to a mediator IS manipulative. So if you are really concerned about not being manipulative then certainly don't do that.
I assume at some point you've made it clear to him that you do not want the D? Most of us had that moment (maybe a few times) where we said something to the effect of "I do not want a D. However, I will not stand in your way if you decide that is what you want." It sounds like he is trying to accomplish a couple of things. First he's trying to get you to agree to the D so that it eases his own guilt. Second he is trying to get you to agree to lead the D so again it eases his own guilt. ANd third, he really wants to get a D so anything that isn't that is going to end up with getting a D he will resist.
I really don't think it is fair for him to expect you to start the legal process, and asking you to start the paperwork, for a D you do not want! So if/when it comes back up I have no problem with you stating, since it seems maybe you haven't been clear to this point, "I do not want a D. However, I will not stand in your way if you decide that is what you want." That means HE takes the reins of the D. HE starts the paperwork. He does all of the legwork necessary to get a D. You do not actively try to prevent the D, but you don't actually lift a finger to move it forward.
See the difference? marching what I think I really see at the root of this is that you are trying to nice him back to the marriage. You cannot nice him back. Many LBSs have tried that approach and it never ends the way they hoped it would. Make him D you, don't D yourself for him.
DnJ, BL42, and Kind18, I really appreciate your advice. I've filed away the suggested for responses should H bring up D paperwork again. Thankfully (well, if H sticks to his word), I won't need to use them, at least for a while.
It's funny, after BD, I naturally went dark and have been really good about following the 24-48 hr rule. I was (still am) so hurt that I just didn't want to initiate contact and invite more rejection. And I take my time responding to texts because they are so few and far between, each exchange feels very high-stakes.
That is good that you pulled back. Most LBSs do the opposite. Pressure and pursuit are the way to push a WAS away faster than anything. Keep up sitting on responses and NOT initiating contact. Remember, texts that are not a question do not need a response. Texts that ask direct questions should be answered in your own time (you are already doing that) and should answer the questions in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers!
Also, yes, especially early on, all communications feel way heavier and meaningful than they probably are. Remember, the WAS is also having feelings that are up and down. So you never know what emotional state they are in at any given moment themselves.
I am starting to plan my move. I'm staying with my parents through the holidays. After that, I'm heading to a city on the other side of the country, where my work is based and my friends live. Don't know when I will ever go back to Country B, where H lives.
I agree with my friends, therapist, and the DBers here that NOT going back to Country B is the best choice for my mental health. Still, I feel sad about it. I am accepting the feeling and letting it pass...
Where you live, in my opinion, is completely up to you and where you want to live! Don't stay in Country B because he is there. But if you truly want to live in Country B then by all means make that happen! If you would prefer to move back to where your work and friends are, and that is your preference, then do that. Please do not make all of your decisions about him.
ALso, meant to say I like how you seem to have a handle on how to control expectations. Expectations will set you back almost every time. So well done on understanding that!
SteveLW, wow, thanks so much for thinking about my sitch. Lots of stuff for me to reflect on.
since it seems maybe you haven't been clear to this point
marching what I think I really see at the root of this is that you are trying to nice him back to the marriage.
You have picked up on my problem, something I want to improve on moving forward (a 180!). I think I have been too passive. I never explicitly said that I didn't want this D because I was scared of making H angrier and pushing him away. I didn't explicitly state that I wanted to work on the marriage because I thought that would be pursuing. I've just been buying time.
I worry that I have really messed things up by not being assertive earlier, when I was in Country B. I especially wish I had put my foot down when he said I wasn't allowed in the apartment. Really, really kicking myself for that. At the time, he was so adamant, I actually thought it was kind of justified. I blamed myself. I didn't defend myself.
We've had fewer than 10 interactions in the 3.5 months since BD (and that's counting very brief business text exchanges). It's been a weird situation because we were apart even before BD; he dropped the bomb right before we were going to live together again.
Now I am not in Country B anymore and who knows when I'll ever see H again.
Being crystal clear on what you want, what you will do and what you will not do is not passive-aggressive in my book.
I'm taking this to heart.
marching,
I am starting to plan my move. I'm staying with my parents through the holidays. After that, I'm heading to a city on the other side of the country, where my work is based and my friends live.
Family & friends are vital. Enjoy the holiday with your parents, and GAL like crazy with your friends in the city.
I agree with my friends, therapist, and the DBers here that NOT going back to Country B is the best choice for my mental health. Still, I feel sad about it. I am accepting the feeling and letting it pass...
He knows how to contact you if he wants. In the meantime go enjoy your life and who knows when he reaches out next time you may not even want to hear from him.
marching, how are things going?
Hi BL42 and SteveLW.
I've been struggling since having the divorce ball thrown in my court and making my move more concrete. I guess it's a necessary, painful step in dropping the rope. It's a very real step towards living life without H.
I have been missing him a lot lately. For the first several months, I was just dealing with shock. Now, so many things remind me of H. There were even so many good times from right before BD. Laughter and passion.
It's hard coming across songs, articles, and videos that I'd normally share and discuss with him, too. It's really hard not having my best friend in my life.
Clearly I am not detached.
I've been figuring out where I'm going to stay while I look for an apartment in the Big City. Having to keep living out of a suitcase is very frustrating. But my friends and family have offered a lot of support, and I'm so grateful for them. Trying to focus the positives in my sitch—like having wonderful people in my life. Including even people at work, who have been very understanding. I'm improving in my running, too.
marching,
I have been missing him a lot lately. For the first several months, I was just dealing with shock. Now, so many things remind me of H.
The best thing you can do is stay busy, hence the GAL advice. Pour yourself into work, into exercise, into picking up a hobby and getting out and being social. The more you're focused on other areas the less time you have to dwell on your sitch..and btw the happier and more confident and attractive you'll become.
Clearly I am not detached.
It's perfectly natural to still have feelings, so don't beat yourself up over it. As my IC would say...it's a process. When you 've been with someone for a decade detaching doesn't happen over night. It's going to take time.
Two things just happened that lifted my mood a lot.
1. I had an appointment with a new C. She gave me some tips on how to be more assertive with H. She thinks H is in a bubble of emotional chaos and his recent behavior is immature, selfish, manipulative, and possibly even delusional. (Which the DBers here all touched on more or less.) I thought it might be a drag to start over with a new C but her perspective and approach are really helpful.
2. A temporary housing solution fell into my lap thanks to a friend. A reminder of just how great my friends are. Really looking forward to hanging out with them in the Big City. We're making lots of fun plans.
Good stuff marching! Glad to hear you found a new counselor. Sounds like you have a good network of caring friends...make sure to GAL like crazy with them!
Hello m
I am very pleased to see a housing solution has presented itself. That’s wonderful. And will certainly alleviate some stress.
I have been missing him a lot lately. For the first several months, I was just dealing with shock. Now, so many things remind me of H. There were even so many good times from right before BD. Laughter and passion.
It's hard coming across songs, articles, and videos that I'd normally share and discuss with him, too. It's really hard not having my best friend in my life.
Clearly I am not detached.
You are doing very well. What you are experiencing is perfectly normal.
From my view, you are starting the stage of withdrawal, which proceeds indifference. Withdrawal is painful. Our brain no longer having its dopamine rewards from interactions with our spouse, pains for that which once flowed so freely.
What you are feeling is likely to get worse. The best strategy is to limit exposure to those nostalgic memories. Pictures, songs, trips down memory lane are far to easy to get lost in. The boost of relief - dopamine - is temporary, and prolongs getting to the other side of this.
Make no mistake, when you get to the real thick of it - withdrawal is a battle. However, you are not unarmed in this fight. Reason, logic, and control are your’s to utilize. You fight the temptations and the pain. The better you do that, the quicker you find your way.
Once through withdrawal, old pictures, songs, movies, memories, and such, don’t trigger or hurt. The happy memories return and just are.
Be strong and stay the course.
D
Two things just happened that lifted my mood a lot.
1. I had an appointment with a new C. She gave me some tips on how to be more assertive with H. She thinks H is in a bubble of emotional chaos and his recent behavior is immature, selfish, manipulative, and possibly even delusional. (Which the DBers here all touched on more or less.) I thought it might be a drag to start over with a new C but her perspective and approach are really helpful.
2. A temporary housing solution fell into my lap thanks to a friend. A reminder of just how great my friends are. Really looking forward to hanging out with them in the Big City. We're making lots of fun plans.
Awesome! I've found in life and posting on this forum that things have a way of working out. I think if more people trusted in that they'd stay calmer and remain rational.
Good stuff, and congratulations!
BL42, I appreciate your support. It's amazing what one can accomplish in just one IC session when the counselor is good. And for sure, I will GAL like crazy!
DnJ, definitely, it's really nice to have one less logistical thing to stress about. what you say makes a lot of sense. Withdrawal seems to fit with what I'm going through. Like all things, I guess it simply takes time, and also not making things harder for myself by limiting exposure. Thanks for the heads up about how things will likely get worse.
SteveLW, you make a really good point. What a good reminder to take the long view. It's true, things do have a way of resolving themselves. When I think back on things in the past that caused me a LOT of anxiety, I realize that everything worked out in the end. And you increase the chance of having a good outcome if you make calm and rational decisions!
Thinking about yesterday's IC session. The C helped me realize just how cruel H's behavior is. Of course, from the outset, I was hurt by how he's treated me and I thought it was unfair, but now I see a deeper layer to his lashing out. For example, he has walked back what he said about being resentful of me; he even said I was a good partner. He has also repeatedly said he feels guilty. When he reiterated that I was not welcome in the apartment, he even said that it would not be good for me to stay there (as if he was protecting me!). There are a lot of other seemingly "kind" gestures that I won't get into here.
But now I see more clearly how those words do not fit his actions. No matter how he spins it, he's icing me out and shows no concern for my perspective or well-being. He clearly blames our relationship (and by extension, me) for all of his problems, even if he says that that's not what this is about. He hasn't really spewed or monstered at me. Instead, he masks his crap behavior with politeness. Nevertheless, he's calling all the shots. I'm writing this to remind myself to be wary of this kind of treatment in the future. It's really insidious and I am working on developing the clarity and the strength to see it and to stand up for myself. I will not let anyone in any area of my life disrespect me this way.
I can do relate. This is really it - W has politely iced me out disrespected and dishonoured me. I have been learning ways to take back my power.
marching, excellent stuff. I truly believe we teach people how to treat us. Clarity and awareness like you are gaining is the way to prevent it and teach people around us what we will and won't tolerate.
Hi Rockon, thanks for stopping by my thread. I'm really sorry that your W is treating you this way. It's really crazy-making, to be so disrespected but in a largely "nice" manner. The silver lining is that we LBS's are pushed to grow. Really good work learning to take back your power—it's not an easy process! I took a look at your sitch and cannot imagine how difficult it must be to enforce boundaries when you have to co-parent at the same time. Keep at it.
SteveLW, thank you. And agreed 100%. We teach people how to treat us.
I just caught up with a friend I haven't talked to a while. I learned that she's also going through a divorce and has been separated from her H for almost half a year! In fact, she and her H decided to end things just a few days before I hung out with them in the summer. At the time, they weren't ready to tell people yet, so they were still socializing as a couple. I couldn't tell that they were having problems at all.
Sounds like their split, while very painful, was handled with maturity. It took some time for my friend's H, who initiated it, to open up about his feelings, but the couple was able to have a series of conversations about it, and the decision became mutual. They parted amicably. The first few months of the separation were horrible for my friend, but she loves her life now. And they are friends.
I'm comparing that with how H has gone about this and more scales are falling out of my eyes. Just a few days ago I was crying and missing H a lot. But today, those loving feeling are very faint, because I am so disgusted by H. I really question whether I would want H back if he ever comes around. He's got a LOT of work to do and I wonder if he is strong enough for it. Even immediately after BD, I knew intellectually that I wouldn't want him in his alien state. But I still wanted him back ASAP. Now, I think my heart is catching up with my head.
Lol let's see if my attitude changes again in a week. Gonna give things more time.
Hi Marching! So sorry you're going through this. I was catching up on your thread and although I'm going through something similar (a bit different bc there's a baby involved!) I really appreciated you phrasing "politely icing you out".
I don't know if you felt this way, but I had wondered if these forums were appropriate for me to read, if I was even experiencing what others did since stbx was also very much "polite" about things. He even speaks highly of me to his friends and family still - I thought I was maybe in denial about how the marriage and my perception was.
Then you see here on these forums how varied cruelty can be. Just because they're not spewing hatred now (guess he kinda did in the beginning) stbx still gaslit, lied, and cheated, but of course it was not on purpose, it was because he was trying to protect his emotions and was just reflecting his people-pleasing nature in response to childhood trauma, and the cheating/divorce/lying was because he needed to be true to himself. Ok, buddy.
I'm farther along in this process than you, and yes, all will work itself out. You'll look back and realize how much stronger you are than this guy and how you deserve so much more. He's obviously in an identity crisis and he personifies the whole "believe nothing what they say and 50% of what they do" that is commonly said around here. You can't trust him because he doesn't even know what HE wants, or is. Perhaps he'll figure it out, grow up and apologize profusely and work on improving, perhaps he wont. You'll be amazing no matter what and will be fine on your own or with someone else.
Take care, marching!
Hi Newborn. How is your little one?
I read your thread as a lurker, and I was so appalled by your stbx's manchild behavior. Ditching his family, taking up yoga and astrology, wearing a man bun, going to concerts with his young friends instead of taking care of his baby. On his high horse talking about some mystical bullshit while you are literally saving lives. So cruel, and honestly so embarrassing for him. I'm sorry you had to deal with such a mess. It sounds like you are doing well now though—it's really heartening to see how people come out stronger on the other side. Thanks so much for the support.
He even speaks highly of me to his friends and family still - I thought I was maybe in denial about how the marriage and my perception was.
The mixed signals are so crazy-making! Speaking well of you but treating you so poorly. Believe nothing of what they say and only 50% of what they do, indeed.
but of course it was not on purpose, it was because he was trying to protect his emotions and was just reflecting his people-pleasing nature in response to childhood trauma, and the cheating/divorce/lying was because he needed to be true to himself. Ok, buddy.
Yes, I hear you, and this describes my situation exactly! I could not believe my ears when H said he has to do this to grow as a person, that he's already matured so much (this after just a month of separation).
As for the phrase "politely icing me out," the credit must go to Rockon
Marching and newborn, Solidarity and power. Don’t stand for Bull$hit! I have so much respect for both of you and really I feel so much pain, disbelief and now more seasoned anger as I am grieving and lamenting what has been trampled, discarded, dishonoured and lost. Gather strength.
R
But it was you marching who helped me to see that - I merely combined the ice and the politeness.
Solidarity and power! Yes, I love that. I'm glad we can support each other through this horrible time. And it's nice to hear that my venting here can be useful to people. Thanks, Rockon.
This grieving process is such a rollercoaster. We'll get through it.
I'm spending a lot of time reading reconciliation stories here. Have been doing this for a couple months. I noticed the way I'm reading them is changing.
I started out seeking out reasons for hope. I hoped I'd find a situation similar to mine and learn from it to find a magic solution to bring H back. And there are truly some remarkable turnarounds on this site.
My reading of reconciliation stories is still motivated by this, a bit. Ok, I admit, sometimes maybe a lot. But so far I haven't found any stories that are similar and I know that even if I did, it wouldn't make sense to use them as guides for my situation anyway. I'm coming a bit closer to acceptance that things are the way they are.
Recently, I've found that I focus much more on the crap behavior of the WAS's. I wonder why the LBS's still want the WAS's and am more interested in how the WAS's redeem themselves rather than in what the LBS's did to get them back. (And of course, if there is any common denominator, it's following the usual DB principles.)
This is a growing edge for me that I am not doing that well at. I “know” it to be true, but I am still having a hard time buying in. I search and mine for hope and for evidence to support my belief that W is maybe hoping to reconcile at some point, but I have to. disbelief what she says and half what she does. If she wants back it will be clear but so far I’m just confused..
I'm with you, Rockon. Sometimes I rake over every little interaction I've had with H to try to figure him out. But the thing is, we can never really know what's going on in other people's heads, much less in those of our alien spouses. They likely don't even know themselves.
It's really hard to not want to peer into a reconciled future. Really, really hard. I've always been a planner and I've been very lucky—up until now, things in my life have more or less gone according to plan. So, it really [censored] to not know what's gonna happen and to realize that there's only so much that I can control. Sometimes the pain can be so bad that the only thing I can do is to get through the day hour by hour! Sometimes even half-hour increments. I've been dropped into a course on mindfulness that I didn't sign up for!
Googling “ex wife wants me back” or searching this site’s reconciliation stories for a golden ticket back to marriage is fraught with danger. That’s one of the reasons that newcomers get told that the chance their marriage will be saved is very low.
It suggests your detachment is not progressing well, and that you need to seek out some professional counselling. Don’t get me wrong, detachment doesn’t happen overnight. It takes years! But you’re trying to do something you don’t have the skills for.
The three best ways forward are:
1. Extreme exercising to keep your mind busy and shut down emotionally driven thoughts and rumination
2. Professional counselling
3. Understanding that you didn’t cause this, you can’t fix it
Thanks for the input, Kind18. I appreciate the reminder that detachment doesn't happen overnight and that we're trying to do something that we don't have the skills for. My next IC appointment can't come soon enough.
Hello m
Yes, at times the path gets pretty difficult. There were times I endured the day, hour by hour, minute by minute. Literally, minute by minute during the worst of it.
Some of my first advice to you was: We all require a certain amount of understanding before we can/will let go. That’s what you are doing. Working to understand. Working to rationalize. All normal and healthy.
You have been placed / forced upon a path not of your choosing. Mindfulness being one of the many lessons along the way. Keep moving forward, you are doing fine. And I am sure you will find your way and become one of the folks who embrace this golden opportunity.
You were mentioning hope. Working to keep it, hang on to it, and such. The reconciliation stories and threads, an extension of that. I suspect you will find, like I did, your hope will strengthen quite a bit, once you shift hope’s focus somewhat and let go / give to God.
Have faith. Trust. Let your future unfold.
Be mindful of the withdrawal I spoke about. You have your mind, your intellect, your reason, and your logic. You are most formidable (if I may state a rather obvious fact). Utilize it. While keeping your heart soft and squishy.
The path is many small steps. And yes, at times, it’s quite a slog. Keep moving forward.
D
marching,
I've always been a planner and I've been very lucky—up until now, things in my life have more or less gone according to plan. So, it really [censored] to not know what's gonna happen and to realize that there's only so much that I can control.
"only so much I can control" indeed. Release control completely and find acceptance. You have no idea how wonderful your life might become because of what's happened to you. Use it as a opportunity for growth.
Sometimes the pain can be so bad that the only thing I can do is to get through the day hour by hour! Sometimes even half-hour increments.
After BD for me it seemed like minutes took hours and days took weeks...but now I'm nearly 3 years in and it's incredible how quickly time has flown by. You'll get through it.
I've been dropped into a course on mindfulness that I didn't sign up for!
LOL, indeed! I was just commenting on DW17's thread how I never even heard of mindfulness before my sitch - I had no idea what my IC was talking about - and now I understand so much better the need for Zen and all those concepts.
Release control completely and find acceptance. You have no idea how wonderful your life might become because of what's happened to you. Use it as a opportunity for growth.
M,
I also have had times (like Saturday night) when I was trying to make it from one minute to the next - felt like a dagger was somewhere between my diaphragm and heart. Other days go better for me now though it’s now always like that.
Hi Newborn. How is your little one?
I read your thread as a lurker, and I was so appalled by your stbx's manchild behavior. Ditching his family, taking up yoga and astrology, wearing a man bun, going to concerts with his young friends instead of taking care of his baby. On his high horse talking about some mystical bullshit while you are literally saving lives. So cruel, and honestly so embarrassing for him. I'm sorry you had to deal with such a mess. It sounds like you are doing well now though—it's really heartening to see how people come out stronger on the other side. Thanks so much for the support.
He even speaks highly of me to his friends and family still - I thought I was maybe in denial about how the marriage and my perception was.
The mixed signals are so crazy-making! Speaking well of you but treating you so poorly. Believe nothing of what they say and only 50% of what they do, indeed.
but of course it was not on purpose, it was because he was trying to protect his emotions and was just reflecting his people-pleasing nature in response to childhood trauma, and the cheating/divorce/lying was because he needed to be true to himself. Ok, buddy.
Yes, I hear you, and this describes my situation exactly! I could not believe my ears when H said he has to do this to grow as a person, that he's already matured so much (this after just a month of separation).
As for the phrase "politely icing me out," the credit must go to Rockon
Hi Marching! You are so kind to ask. Little guy is doing amazing
Sweet as can be and silly. He's already trying to read books and yelling at the parts that the main character is yelling. I'm super lucky to be his mom.
Thanks for reading my thread and validating me. Heard echoes of my past in yours when I went through bomb drop #1. You're way ahead than I was at first bomb drop.
Watching you interact with others and your thoughtful kind responses are a testament to your character. You're an amazing person and I hope you don't lose that in all of this. It's easy to do, when you feel fractured with the guilt and the trashed self esteem and the being treated like a question mark. I know how you feel when initially you look for success stories alone, and then far later when you finally feel whole again you're just like "how does anyone even take these people back?"
I've heard, repeatedly, that the best way to get the interest of someone back is by completely moving on. It seems like many of the LBS achieved that after realizing they didn't care if their WAS came back.
If that happens with you, please make sure he shows total remorse and truly apologizes. You deserve so much more than being treated like how you are.
DnJ, BL42, and R2C, thank you so much for the encouragement. The wise words about letting go of control, taking things as they come, staying in the present, and treating this as an opportunity sink a little deeper each time I hear them.
Rockon, I'm really sorry that Saturday night was so rough for you. I hope the good days will eventually outnumber the bad. Please keep taking care of yourself.
Newborn, I'm glad to hear that your little guy is doing well! Amazing that he's already trying to read books! Mimicking the main character when they yell—that's adorable! I appreciate your kind words so much. You absolutely hit the mark—I'm working on overcoming feelings of guilt and building up my self-esteem. I could have been more attentive to H's mounting unhappiness. But of course it's so easy to see the signs in hindsight. And I couldn't have and can't fix him. In any case, although I'm not perfect, I know I was good partner. You're right, on the off chance that H ever comes around, he'll be the one to have to prove that he deserves me! So far he's only expressed guilt and not genuine remorse.
Don't remember if I made this update, but the move back to the Big City is official. Found a short-term sublet, bought my flight. I've my friends. I'm filling up my calendar with a lot of hobbies and feel really good about it.
It'll be a bit strange to see people from work again. Everyone knew about my long-distance marriage and plans to move to Country B. They all said really nice good-byes and wished me well just a few months ago. Not sure how I will handle questions about my return. I guess a simple "I'm separated" will do?
Hello m
Yes a simple factual answer will suffice.
Depending upon who the person is, you may consider expanding things a bit to better explain your reason of return. “H made a surprise announcement of wanting a divorce. We are currently separated.”
It does helps to provide a few details (not all the sordid mess, just a few facts). Folks will want to know, and in the absence of any information, well it’s best to limit the guesswork and gossip. Also, folks do care about you, and they will better empathize with you.
Like I said, it depends. For me, my coworkers were friends. Family friends. Meals at my house. Christmas gatherings with families. They knew my (then) W. Our kids were, and still are, friends. To those folks I explained more fully.
D
"Surprise announcement." I like that. Gives a few details without being too heavy. Thanks, DnJ.
Don't remember if I made this update, but the move back to the Big City is official. Found a short-term sublet, bought my flight. I've my friends. I'm filling up my calendar with a lot of hobbies and feel really good about it.
Good! I think you're wise to move there. GAL like crazy with your hobbies and friends.
It'll be a bit strange to see people from work again. Everyone knew about my long-distance marriage and plans to move to Country B. They all said really nice good-byes and wished me well just a few months ago.
There are going to be awkward encounters and situations. You may feel more awkward about if than others either if you don't need to. They are your friends and coworkers they'll be kind to you. If there's a silver lining to a bad situation it is that H is living in another country - very unlikely to have the run ins you would if you were both in the same town.
Not sure how I will handle questions about my return. I guess a simple "I'm separated" will do?
I'm with DnJ on keeping it simple. Try not to act hurt and bitter and leak all the messy details. Factual, short, and to the point. Then deflect onto something more cheerful. You don't need to cry on everyone's shoulder - save that for your family and closest friend - and go out and enjoy GAL and be positive and upbeat with all the rest.
Have you watch the Jocko Willink videos on breakups yet? There's one on "The Warrior Mentality When Dealing With Breakups" and another "How to Get Over Break Ups and Betrayal". I enjoy watching those every once in awhile to get in the right mindset. There's one part where he explains how he used to tell his fellow seals when they told him about a breakup or divorce "Oh right on bro, congrats...let's rock and roll!". Reminds me of you telling your friends and coworkers and then having them take you out for some fun.
Depending upon who the person is, you may consider expanding things a bit to better explain your reason of return. “H made a surprise announcement of wanting a divorce. We are currently separated.”
I would also add "How have you been?" to turn the convo away from you and back to them.
Thanks for the suggestions, BL42 and R2C! I haven't seen those videos—will check them out, thanks! I like the idea of keeping things light and then deflecting.
An unpleasant update in my sitch. H just texted saying that he's going to "look into things" and asked me to send him pictures of our marriage certificate. This just two weeks after he said he wouldn't bring "it" up again and understood that I'm dealing with a lot right now. (Love how he doesn't straight up say "divorce.") We have had 0 contact since then. I had a feeling he'd still end up pressuring me. And here he is again pressuring me in this "polite," passive aggressive way.
Will give it 24-48 hours before I respond. Is this my opportunity to use the response everyone suggested last time ("I don't agree but I won't stand in your way")? What are your thoughts on sending the pictures? Frankly, I don't understand why he would need them for "looking into things." I am tempted to tell him that he is welcome to order a copy of the certificate himself.
My goal is to be assertive but not alienating. To stand up for myself while keeping the door cracked open.
Why not just send it to him?
The fate of your marriage is not going to be decided on whether and how quickly you do or don’t supply him with a copy of the marriage certificate.
You can’t change what he’s going to do.
His request for a photo or copy of it is a reasonable request 🤷♂️ What benefit would denying or delaying have?
If you’re genuinely busy and don’t have the time, then don’t do it and tell him why.
Otherwise, just send it 🤷♂️
And here he is again pressuring me in this "polite," passive aggressive way.
But is he REALLY being passive aggressive? I don’t think he is on this. The request was polite, reasonable. Passive aggressive would have been “since you won’t blah blah blah, I’m going to need a copy of the marriage certificate to give to my lawyer.”
What I would define as “passive aggressive” is deliberately withholding it or making it hard.
Sometimes it’s hard to see anything good or nice in someone that has hurt us so bad. I think it would be overwhelming if I were in your shoes, but objectively from the outside looking in it looks very different.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Definitely don’t decide in a hurry. Think on it for 24 hours.
Sorry you’re going through this Marching. It’s such a roller coaster.
marching,
Kind18 said it well.
I'd simply respond send a picture of the certificate per his request - no text or explanation or upset feelings. It answers his request and doesn't engage in any pressure or pursuit.
I also don't think H is acting passive-aggressive. He's clearly communicating he wants a D and is politely requesting some information to further that goal. Now he IS after an after, breaking his vows, and wanting to D you, and that's lousy behavior on his part, but in terms of this particular ask it sounds straightforward to to me, not passive aggressive.
M,
Kind18 is very spot on here. I think one of the misconceptions on this board is the "don't do the heavy lifting advice" often given here. That doesn't mean to delay the process. In fact quite often the quicker deal you can make the better deal you will get.
What if your were to 180 it and act like you can't wait to get D'd so you could move on with the awesome life you are going to have moving forward.
Good Morning m
Good on you utilizing the 48 hour rule.
I agree, I’d simply send H a copy of the marriage certificate.
This is an opportunity to not place boulders upon the path. This is not heavy lifting, nor will it significantly speed anything up.
My goal is to be assertive but not alienating. To stand up for myself while keeping the door cracked open.
Excellent goals.
Telling H to get his own copy would be working counter to your goals. That would fan his flames and propel him, adding fuel to his angry/depression ladened mixture. Remember, you want at some point, H to awaken to: “Hey, marching hasn’t been bugging me, or talking to me, or otherwise, and I am still unhappy. Hmmm, maybe it wasn’t her after all.” And then, with some good fortune, H will look inward.
Nothing you do, and everything you do, matters.
It matters for you! Everything, all suggestions, are for you. Be better, not bitter.
And the added benefit is it gives you the best chance at reconciliation.
Frankly, I don't understand why he would need them for "looking into things."
Don’t borrow trouble. Do not get ahead of yourself. Just deal with this request is all.
My W was a jet fuelled dragster and rocketed her way to a divorce in 60 days. Nothing I did mattered. And everything I did mattered. There is a new life beyond the wreckage, after the flames die down, and after the dust settles - a really good life. Seriously! And you are laying the foundation of that life right now. Everything matters for you. (((Hugs)))
If H can find his way. If he can find his senses. He will turn back towards you. Be a gal only a fool would leave. It’s then up to H, if he be a fool or not.
There are positives in this request as well. H is talking to you. Speaking civilly. H also knows you, and knows you are organized. He asked for a copy and pretty much knows you will be able to find the certificate no problem.
Unlike my W, your H is wallowing and slowly moving along. “Looking into things”, will have meaning for him too. He is not rocketing along mowing anything and everyone who stands in his way. I suspect H will stare at that certificate for many hours. Languishing in guilty torment and happy memories. A step towards awakening to what he is doing and considering.
It may not dissuade him from his ill-conceived and driven path of finding his happiness. Although, I would wager seeing his and your names on a certificate of marriage will give him pause.
The future is unwritten. Let it unfold. And do not write it off. Hope lives in the possibilities.
Strengthen your foundation. Build well.
D
H just texted saying that he's going to "look into things" and asked me to send him pictures of our marriage certificate.
As you read things, learn to edit out things that don't matter. What I striked out doesn't matter.
Is this an easy task for you? If yes, then snap the picture and send it. This is your best choice.
If the answer is no, then you have two choices.
1) Text him "I should have time to look for the MC this weekend"
2) I am not sure where the MC is. It might be easier if you order a copy from the court house"
Is this my opportunity to use the response everyone suggested last time ("I don't agree but I won't stand in your way")?
I believe this needs to be your state of mind. Your actions then reflect this to him.
I know this is tough. It is the hardest thing most of us will ever go through.
HUGS
Kind18, BL42, LH19, DnJ, thanks so much for your input and support. I can see how the ask isn't passive aggressive.
I worry that my perception is warped because I think I was a doormat in the weeks after BD and now I am at risk of going too far in the opposite direction. For example, I thought he was justified in not letting me in "the" (not "our") apartment and not helping me make alternative arrangements. I really wish I had stood up for myself then. And I never explicitly stated that I don't want the divorce, I just said I accepted and respected his decision; I was afraid that saying anything more would push him away.
So, I appreciate the feedback. I see how complying with this request wouldn't be doormat behavior. Still think H is being weird though, because in Country B, as elsewhere, you don't need the certificate to make inquiries about the D process.
Just saw your response after I posted, R2C. Yes, it's an easy task for me. Thanks very much for your feedback and support.
I consulted with a DB coach today and it was super helpful. She echoed words shared here about how dragging things out can push the MLC spouse in the other direction.
We talked about how I can be cooperative without being a doormat. She also said that it in my case, it wouldn't hurt to start some light chit chat. So, I sent the pictures of the MC (cooperation). I also told H that I am talking to lawyers in Big City, deliberately using the word "divorce," which he tends to avoid, to show that it doesn't scare me (not being a doormat).
H said, "That's great, thank you." He's going to talk to a lawyer next week to figure "it" out for Country B and "then we can see what's more practical."
I went out on a limb and responded with a gif about lawyers that referenced one of our inside jokes and said "ok" (attempt at chit chat).
He responded to the gif with a laughing emoji.
I was surprised that H sounded appreciative of me talking to lawyers. I didn't mention that I also already consulted a lawyer in Country B. I worried he might feel threatened. To the contrary, it's like he thinks figuring out the legal stuff is now a team effort and I've taken up half of the work (am I mind-reading too much?).
This all feels very weird because we've hardly had any contact since BD. But sure, we'll just chummily proceed with a life-changing legal process without having had any serious discussion about our M or attempts to improve it beforehand.
Well, it's definitely preferable to the ugly, acrimonious messes that some folks unfortunately have suffered.
I should note that H still doesn't know where I am living right now. I haven't told him about my moving plans, either, and he hasn't asked.
M,
Civil is always preferable to contentious. Just be careful you don’t friend zone yourself. He’s done his homework and understands you need a lawyer in this process. You haven’t had a conversation on fixing the marriage because he doesn’t want to fix it. That’s hard work and it’s “easier” to walk away and start over. Maybe he’s right or maybe he’s wrong. The future will determine that.
I worried he might feel threatened.
I see lots fear and worry-driven behaviour here. Let him feel whatever he wants to feel, he’ll need to hitch his big boy pants up and deal with his own emotions.
am I mind-reading too much?
Yes, you are. Trying to understand what a WAS/WS is thinking is like trying to understand 1+1=73
Well, it's definitely preferable to the ugly, acrimonious messes that some folks unfortunately have suffered.
Don’t understate how hard it is, what you’re going through is hell on earth.
But yes, if you can get through a divorce without all the vitriol you stand an excellent chance of a better split, better custody… and you don’t fill up two lawyer’s bank accounts with your own and your children’s future education money.
Just snap a picture of the cert and send it to him. No message.
Remember, respond to requests like this in as few words as possible. In this case, all that is necessary is the picture of the marriage certificate.
Oh and I do like the fact that you waited to respond, and came to the board for suggestions. Too many LBSs are too impulsive with this kind of thing. So well done.
Good Morning m
I consulted with a DB coach today and it was super helpful. She echoed words shared here about how dragging things out can push the MLC spouse in the other direction.
We talked about how I can be cooperative without being a doormat. She also said that it in my case, it wouldn't hurt to start some light chit chat. So, I sent the pictures of the MC (cooperation). I also told H that I am talking to lawyers in Big City, deliberately using the word "divorce," which he tends to avoid, to show that it doesn't scare me (not being a doormat).
Glad you sought out a DB coach. A most helpful resource.
I like purposefully and deliberately using the word divorce with H. That’s good for you (what you can control) and influences H as well. Removing his belief that you are afraid of divorce does disarm H somewhat, and takes some of the wind from his sails.
H now has the certificate, and the ball is back in his court. Let’s see where he takes this, and how fast.
You keep doing you. When are you moving into your new place in the big city? Or have you already?
D
LH19, thanks for your input. Yes, you are spot on. H specifically said there is "nothing to fix" in our M when he said he didn't want to talk. I'm not sure what you mean about friend-zoned? Could you say a bit more about that? My DB coach essentially said that for my sitch, where this is so little contact, I actually need to build up a friendship again.
Kind18, I'm with you. I want to be better at not worrying about his reactions and figuring out his brain. I appreciate you validating how difficult this is despite it not being vitriolic (for now at least).
SteveLW, thanks for dropping in. Yes, I'm trying to not be impulsive (i.e., not act like a crazy MLC alien), I appreciate you acknowledging that. This board is such a great resource and I'm so grateful for it. The DB coach was actually the one who recommended that I include the message and be a little chatty.
DnJ, I'm moving to the Big City in a couple weeks, thanks for asking. I'm expecting that H will reach out again next week after he meets with the lawyer. I feel some anxiety about this. I hate this feeling of walking on eggshells, always being afraid of making the wrong move. But I will continue to be assertive and draw boundaries (if I say it, it will come true).
--
I've been thinking about what my goals are for in my interactions with H. Frankly, I'm not really considering reconciliation. I don't dare to hope for it because the chances are so slim. So many stars need to align for an R to work out, and very few of them are within my control.
So, my goal is to just to communicate assertively and take my power back. Just take things as they come as an emotionally healthy, self-respecting person. My IC told me today that I shouldn't be afraid of H's reactions. If H throws a tantrum when I stand up for myself, this would not be surprising because this whole thing is childish. I don't want to be married to a child.
marching,
I'm not sure what you mean about friend-zoned? Could you say a bit more about that?
Friend Zone: a situation in which a friendship exists between two people, one of whom has an unreciprocated romantic or sexual interest in the other.
Don't be the person who is always available to another person who doesn't show you the same level of interest you'd like them to. Being there as a shoulder to cry on, or to help them with a move, or to go to the movies as someone they don't see as more than a friend when you want a romantic relationship with.
My DB coach essentially said that for my sitch, where this is so little contact, I actually need to build up a friendship again.
I'm not a professional coach, so take this for what it is, but personally I think it's unlikely you building up a rapport with H will matter if he's in an active affair. Which, not sure if you've 100% verified, but seems incredibly likely based on what you've shared.
Frankly, I'm not really considering reconciliation. I don't dare to hope for it because the chances are so slim. So many stars need to align for an R to work out, and very few of them are within my control.
I think you should work towards acceptance and peace that you'll likely get divorced. H has already asked you not to visit his home and said he wants D. He's likely in an affair. I know it's difficult, but the sooner you accept this as the likely result the better, as it will stop having power over you. The more you try to hold on to something you can't control the longer it'll control you.
My IC told me today that I shouldn't be afraid of H's reactions. If H throws a tantrum when I stand up for myself, this would not be surprising because this whole thing is childish.
Your IC is right. What do you have to be afraid of? The worst case has already happened. He can't do anything more to you than he already has. So don't be afraid; embrace it.
marching - You're young with no kids and have lived apart from H for several years npo. Serious question...why is it that you don't want a divorce? Reflect on that. Be honest with yourself.
Hi BL42.
Thanks for the input on the friendship thing. At this point, with contact is so minimal, we aren't even friends, so there is no risk of friendzoning, but if the rapport grows, yes, I don't plan on hanging onto his every word, I will not bend over backwards for approval, etc. As for being a friend while a spouse is in an affair—it's interesting, this seems to be quite a matter of debate on the forums. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
I appreciate you asking me why I don't want this divorce. It's certainly something I think about, and I won't go into all those reasons for now. Obviously I am not in a healthy relationship with the person H is right now. I deserve much, much better. Sometimes I just want to get the D over with. I know I will be okay.
Obviously I am not in a healthy relationship with the person H is right now. I deserve much, much better.
Yes, you do.
Actually, my guess is you'll be
much better than just "okay". Good days are ahead.
I'm not sure what you mean about friend-zoned? Could you say a bit more about that?
My 2 cents: Do you want him as a lover? Someone that wants you sexually? Anything less is being friend zoned. A spouse should be more than a lover.
There is a sexual tension between lovers that does not exist with a friendship. We interact with lovers (or possible lovers) differently than friends.
Good Morning m
I will continue to be assertive and draw boundaries (if I say it, it will come true).
Yes, our minds will bring to fruition that which we ask of it. Saying, especially writing, are powerful precursors to doing. The first step in any process is creation. Doing that creation ushers in the next step, doing the supportive actions.
Just be careful you don’t friend zone yourself.
I agree with your DB coach, you likely needed to build/rebuild a friendship with H.
As has been stated a lover’s or wife’s friendship to her H is different than the friendship with the grocery store check out person. There is a chemistry, a spark, that lives within and between two people in love. As you speak friendly with H, becoming just a friend is the pitfall to avoid.
An example of being friend-zoned, well for a guy: When trying to get a date you are told you are such a good friend, like a brother, some one I can really talk to. Blam! Friend zoned. No one dates their brother.
Friends have a barrier or ceiling on the relationship. That relationship does not venture into the sexual and lover’s realm. If you want a chance at reconciliation, you be W. Not friend. Wife. Don’t be H’s sounding board, or confidant, or counsellor; be friendly. He can find “friends” to pour his heart out to, and folks to help him fix things. That is not a position where you want to get trapped in.
You’ve likely read plenty of the be flirty and vague and such, advice to posters. That is what encourages (for someone wanting it) the friendship of lovers. The advice is do not over do it, and don’t walk blindly into the friend zone.
Have a Merry Christmas m.
D
This is really a challenge for me to navigate as well but so important.
Please start a new thread and link your threads together.
Thanks, Job.
Thanks also to everyone for chiming in about the friendzone thing. Fortunately (unfortunately), there is no risk of friendzoning anytime soon. H and I are nowhere near friendship right now, as you will see in the next update.
New thread:
Marching in limbo with MLC H (2)