Brand new and wouldn't mind some guidance for a really rough time I'm going through.
Me (34) and my wife (36) have been together for 14 years and married in 2018. We have one daughter together (11 years old).
At the end of September, my wife unleashed all of these grievances she has deep resentment from that had never come to light before. I was completely blindsided because although I didn't think things were perfect, I didn't realize she had got to this point. Many of the things she was talking about happened a really long time ago that I barely even remembered. It is almost like she has been tucking away/numbing her feelings of a lot of these things I've done wrong in the relationship, possibly for quite a few years, and never told me pointedly for me to try to change it. She has said that she felt alone at many points of our relationship but I also know she knows I've been a really good provider for our family and we've had some really amazing times together.
Now that all of this came out, it's like it's now available for her to analyze/digest all of these feelings/emotions she has numbed.
My heart was just completely shattered. When the person you thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with says they are possibly done with the relationship, it was a true wake up call that has really changed me.
In her mind, all the years of ups/downs just led her to be checked out and just mentally done in the relationship. She had almost accepted it as fine that we've been living two separate independent lives in our household without a connection almost like roommates. And while I agree things weren't perfect, I almost followed the "No news is good news" when we were clearly continuing to drift apart.
Since this "blow up" happened, for about 2 months I have been absolutely working my butt off to show her how much I love her, helping out more around the house, being a better father, husband, and just trying to be a better person in general. These two months have been really hard on my heart. I have been physically sick and had many sleepless nights.
She has acknowledged that she sees the change and really appreciates the changes. Even with this, and my repeated attempts at just pouring my heart out, she is still shutting me out. It's like we can't turn the valve back on that she shut off and made up her mind about for so long. She keeps saying she is "struggling" and knows she is shutting me out. She has also said that she admits she is being selfish but it's like doesn't matter because to her it's almost her time to stand up for her own emotions.
I haven't discounted some of the things that she probably has resentment for. I know I have made a lot of mistakes. I was 23 when we had our daughter and I know I didn't always make the most mature decisions like prioritizing my family instead of hanging out with friends, going to the gym, or even working long hours.
She feels like all the stuff I'm doing now (180 in her mind) makes her feel like she has to just forgive, get over and move on because I want to change and be better. She feels pressured and knows I'm trying to be there for her and showing her how much I love her but it's like not enough. She still keeps shutting me out.
The problem I see is that I'm all-in 100%+ with my effort on fixing things and she is at maybe 2-5% on a good day, still even struggling to be a willing participant at all.
I started reading a few of these threads and see that one of the big ways I have screwed up since she came out as a walkaway wife is not giving her space. In my defense, I'm a human being and being so blindsided made we want answers. Since she wouldn't communicate well in person, we resorted to texting a lot and I think it has pushed her even further way. When I wouldn't get responses it would frustrate me more and I think this led to her to keep saying that she felt pressure all the time for a perfect response. I think it just drained her emotionally.
We've seen a local counselor a few times but again I've still been making the mistake of not giving her space which I learned after reading some of these threads.
Last week, I scheduled a great family outing she agreed to go to at a local professional hockey game with no expense spared and we had a really great time. We also at least were each able to take off work and have a day date where we saw a movie and had a lunch out that was actually really comfortable and had good conversation. I again made the mistake of seeing how she was feeling about things after and that didn't go well.
Now she has told me she's done with the relationship. It's like she has completely convinced herself that getting over these issues is just too hard and therefore not possible. Like there is just too much to get over and the thought of doing so is just too daunting for her.
Maybe she is really done with the relationship but I think it's also possible that what she is "done" with is me smothering/suffocating her which I did out of stupidity.
I want/need to change up my strategy and what I was thinking about was to continue doing all of the good changes that I have been doing that she has clearly seen the difference. This whole thing in general has made me want to be a better father and husband so I want to keep doing that. I was also going to stop applying any pressure to her whatsoever, not seek validation, and let her do what she wants to do. If she wants to continue for us go to therapy, go, etc.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome! I am posting a copy of Cadet's Welcome Thread below for you. There are links to some valuable resources and information available here on the forum.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmand Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello br4d0n
Good for you realizing your actions and your willingness to accept responsibility and alter your behaviour and outlook.
Since the blow up you have been helping out more, and been more engaged. Your W a has acknowledged your efforts. Realize she took a lot of time to get to the point of airing everything back in September. It will likely take a similar, if not longer amount of time, for her to believe your changes.
Your changes - being a better husband, father, and person - are admirable. Do them for you, and make them permanent.
It is good she and you have seen a counsellor. Ensure you give her some time and space to process things. And keep the pressure from you minimal, like zero. She will talk about the relationship when she is ready.
Last week, I scheduled a great family outing she agreed to go to at a local professional hockey game with no expense spared and we had a really great time. We also at least were each able to take off work and have a day date where we saw a movie and had a lunch out that was actually really comfortable and had good conversation. I again made the mistake of seeing how she was feeling about things after and that didn't go well.
Maybe she is really done with the relationship but I think it's also possible that what she is "done" with is me smothering/suffocating her which I did out of stupidity.
She went out with you to movies and a hockey game. She even had a fun time. However, no one likes smothering/suffocating. And it sounds like that is more what she is pushing against right now.
She’s seen some of your changes. Live those changes. Be better. You the best version of you. Let you actions speak loud and clear.
It takes time for a relationship to heal and evolve.
Next date. No worrying and asking about her feelings. How would new you have dated if you weren’t worried? Be like that. Might have to act as if for a while until you get there.
Read MWD, read threads, ask questions. And do not share with W. She will likely think it just a ploy of some sort. Keep the source of your information to yourself.
The future is unknown and unwritten. Have faith. Where there is love, there is hope.
Welcome to the boards.
D
Hi mate!
Welcome to the boards!
There’s some incredible people here, who will walk this journey with you - and they speak from experience. Sometimes what they say is harsh, but it’s done with good intentions. LH19 will wake you up with 2x4s to the head and ask you hard questions. DNJ is the go to guy when you’re peaking and need someone to calm you down and see the big picture. BL42 has great advice for all situations and has seen it all.
1. Firstly - you can’t convince someone you’ve changed when you were a certain way for 15 years, and now you’ve spent a month or two being different. It takes a LONG, LONG time.
2. You are taking on far too much responsibility already. You’re trying to nice her back, which never, EVER works. It just makes them hate and resent you more, because you’re making their decision (that deep down, they’ve already made) harder. Don’t fall into the trap of being a doormat and a Mr nice guy. It won’t work.
3. You need to forget about her and concentrate on you. Make decision for YOU. Don’t try and impress her, don’t try and be the best husband ever. Start prioritising yourself - exercise, counselling, hobbies, friends.
4. This will seem like crazy advice - but the harder you try to impress and keep her, the less likely you’ll save your marriage. That’s a really hard thing to understand when you get here. But the full reality is that you are most likely to save your marriage by smiling when she says she can’t do it any more, wishing her the very best, and walking in the complete opposite direction. Very few, if any Newcomers have the conviction to do that. But it’s much more likely to end in reconciliation. Women can’t be with men they don’t respect.
5. You need to prepare yourself for the possibility that she’s having an affair. (I’m not giving you much good news, am I?) I came to these boards the same - “oh no, it’s not that, she goes to church every week and tells me she still loves me and there’s definitely no-one else.” Turns out there was. And many who come to the forum who are absolutely 100% sure there’s no-one else, find that nearly ALWAYS there is. Im not saying this to hurt you. But it’s a possibility you need to be prepared for. I see warning signs for it too - when they acknowledge your changes and say they’ve noticed you being much nicer, but simultaneously hang onto resentments from the past (and bring up minor things from 10+ years ago) - it’s a sure sign that they are with or want to be with someone else, and they’re trying to justify it in their own mind. At one point, mine said “you do too many chores/cleaning maintenance around the house for me and the kids and it makes me feel guilty, so I can’t be with you.” And “do you remember that time 15 years ago when we went for a walk and you didn’t hold my hand?” … That was her trying to find excuses to justify her affair.
The best thing you can do at this point is read all of Cadet’s welcome thread and links, stop trying to make her happy, organise some counselling for yourself only… and start exercising 60 mins every day.
Good luck! We’re all here for you.
DnJ:
Thank you so much for the feedback.
You said, "Realize she took a lot of time to get to the point of airing everything back in September. It will likely take a similar, if not longer amount of time, for her to believe your changes."
This is a good point but realistically speaking there is just no way any couple can stay in this limbo state that long, and still be together right? Let's say some of the resentment started on year 2 or 3 of our relationship and continued to present, we're talking like 12+ years. There is no other way she can get past it then time?
She has admitted that it wasn't right for her to suppress all of these feelings and push me away but that is what happened. She knows that how we got here is not all my fault. I guess a part of me really hoped she could take some personal responsibility for the problems that have occurred from her end too and that would kind of open her heart to getting over some of the things she has resentment about on my end.
Kind18:
Thank you as well for the insight.
1. Similar to what I asked DnJ, are we really talking about this possibly taking 10+ years for her to resolve this resentment? How does anyone make it through that amount of time?
2. Your point on trying to nice her back is really well taken. I guess my thinking was trying to show that I was taking initiative like doing the dishes, cleaning the kitchen, etc. which I know is something she has been annoyed with in the past. Doing this without being asked and without seeking any kind of validation, etc. I was going to try to couple this with an almost no pressure, no pestering, no questions, type of approach. Are you suggesting to not do this kind of thing?
3. I can certainly start concentrating on me but the forgetting about her part is where I'm struggling to see the strategy. If I just zero her out once she has said she is "done" with the relationship, doesn't that just put the nail in the coffin? I guess since my ultimate goal/desire is to get her back, I hoped that perhaps if she says she does want to continue counseling for example and I'm able to get her to participate on a 1-on-1 date with just the two us at night and ideally our child away for the night that the sparks could fly again. My thinking is trying to get her to see me like she definitely has at points in our relationship. Then again, no questions about how things went, no texting, not seeking validation, no anything.
4. I agree. It's not that I'm pushing back but it's hard for me to process not trying to impress her and show her that I've changed. The truth is that when she unleashed all of this about her resentment, it might be hard to believe but something in me has really changed. In my head I'm thinking if I almost ignore her and focus only on myself, spending more time with friends, etc. isn't that making the problem worse and disconnecting even further?
If I'm understanding what you are suggesting, it's a complete you do you, I'll do me type of approach. I keep being the best father to our daughter and co-parent I can, but keep everything with the spouse kind of isolated? And like don't do the dishes, clean the kitchen, etc.?
5. Your point is well taken and I can't say 100% of course but I really don't think so. However, that is not to say that she hasn't been prepping for a possible better suitor if one were to come along. Or even fantasizing about what that could look like. Once this all came out at the end of September, I reflected back and realized that she really started focusing on her weight and strict dieting beginning of September. That said, she does that from time to time with resolutions, etc. She also started dressing better/more fashionable, probably also due to looking better. Again, not 100% certain she isn't but she would have to almost be a master at it with what I do and how I observe.
You’ll know if she’s having an affair by how she is with her phone. Is it always close by? Passcoded? Long trips to the bathroom with it? Early or late to bed with it?
Hello br
Let's say some of the resentment started on year 2 or 3 of our relationship and continued to present, we're talking like 12+ years.
The resentments at the start of a relationship, like year 2 and 3, are usually quickly forgiven or perhaps more aptly quickly glossed over. Later into a marriage/relationship, let’s say 12-18 months ago, those things are not so easily overlooked. Pressures of life have built, we are older and have changed, career pressures, kids, etc, and if a couple has not a good open communication established - the no news is good news idea - then resentment builds more and more. It’s that time frame I am referring to, the recent past; not the entire relationship.
W will bring up stuff from the entire relationship to blame you and justify her decision. Shifting her viewpoint takes time. It took time to shift it to what it currently is, it takes time and consistent demonstrated behaviour on your part to influence her to perhaps shift it again.
You make it through this by focusing on you, doing your inner work, and becoming a man only a fool would leave.
I can certainly start concentrating on me but the forgetting about her part is where I'm struggling to see the strategy. If I just zero her out once she has said she is "done" with the relationship, doesn't that just put the nail in the coffin? I guess since my ultimate goal/desire is to get her back, I hoped that perhaps if she says she does want to continue counseling for example and I'm able to get her to participate on a 1-on-1 date with just the two us at night and ideally our child away for the night that the sparks could fly again. My thinking is trying to get her to see me like she definitely has at points in our relationship. Then again, no questions about how things went, no texting, not seeking validation, no anything.
You don’t quite forget about her. You are living together. You are still speaking to each other.
The point is to respect what she says. She says she is done with the relationship. Respect that. Listen to her. And no pressure.
Now, she is “done” when she said that. At a different time, she is not so “done”. Feelings are fleeting when not reinforced. Pressure and R talks reinforces her feelings. Let go of her and go about your day. Be kind and cordial and polite. Do you for you.
W needs time and space to relax her feelings and let the other ones surface. She has lots to process and reconcile.
As for putting the nail in the coffin. I get how it feels that way. A lot of this stuff is counterintuitive at first. It will feel wrong to you.
You are looking to fix this. You can’t. There are no magic words or easy fix. Pressuring her puts more nails in. She’s already hammered some nails in, you are wanting her to take those nails out. You can’t force that. She has to come to it on her own and on her own time.
Stay strong. You’ll get through this.
D
Consider making your highest priorities building your relationship with your daughter and improving yourself for you. And there's no need to chase your W. You'll probably find that she will stay on the periphery of your life, no matter how many times she says that she's completely done.
Spiral
Thanks DnJ.
What you are saying is really clicking with me now. Especially once I read Michele's last restore techniques.
Unfortunately what I've realized is that these past two months of me stressfully doing what I thought was working really hard, and maybe gaining some traction, was just doing all the things being perceived as pursuing/needy/desperate which just as the technique talks about has just led to withdrawing/shutting down/stonewalling. Lesson learned of course.
That said, my recent plea (that didn't work of course) before the official "I'm done with the relationship" was for her to give it through the holidays (Christmas and New Years) and really "try" with us to make things work for my daughters sake more than anything. Now I at least have a new strategy I can invoke here during this time since I'm respecting her decision that she's "done".
Here is a big question: We were supposed to have our couple counseling session today but it was canceled due to a family emergency of the counselor. He wants to reschedule next week. How should I navigate that if my wife still wants to go? Should I still attend? Or if I'm really following the process and going about my day and really "moving on" with my life, why would I do that? If the answer is no don't attend, what should my response to her be? Or is it an opportunity to still attend but not really talk about R stuff, any pressure, or trying to commit to dates and see where she is at?
Another question: There is a little bit of an internal struggle with this on doing what is right for my daughters sake as well, with holidays, group neighbor family gatherings, family couple outings, etc. For example, Wife says she is "done" but we were supposed to go to her families house for Thanksgiving activities this weekend. It's a bit awkward in general now of course, but me attending makes both parents present for the young one. Or again, if I'm really "moving on" with my life, because at her request she is "done" with the relationship do I say something like, you know I ended up making other plans this weekend with some old friends (which isn't really a lie and could be the case).
Lastly, LH19, on the affair discussion. She is on her phone a lot and is always close with a passcode, however, that has always been the case. Neither of us share our phones with the other, ever. No long visits to the bathroom. I'm really confident that there is no affair based on my methods as I also explored this before here. The only possible blind spot I have with timing, schedules, commitments is if she has something going on at her work that only ever stays at her work (never away from work). I think that is highly unlikely.
I don't think that you should go through with the counseling session. If she's not willing to put in any effort, it won't go anywhere. And if you don't go through with it, she'll see that you are trying to let go. Letting go can only help you.
Spiral
So passcodes on the phones being the norm do not sound good in a marriage. So I have been giving advice on this board for almost 7 years and I think I remember 1-2 WW where there is zero sign of OM. I know this is going to sound strange but if you want to reconcile you have a better chance there being an om. Affairs are like heroin and make people do crazy things they regret later. If she is walking away from you with a clear head than there is likely no turning back.
I’d skip MC for now. If she asks about it just say that you are respecting her statement that she’s done. Try to say it with as much sincerity as possible. She’s likely to see right through you but there is nothing you can do about it right now.
You married young but she’s kinda young for a WAW. This typically happens when people are in their 40s and start asking “is all there is to life”?
Sounds like you’ve been living as roommates for awhile. I assume that means sex life is not good. This typically leads to resentment from the husband. So my question is why is this life acceptable to you? Why don’t you want out? Just so you know I already know the answer to the question. Before you tell me the standard BS answers dig down deep and be honest with yourself.
Good Morning br
MC doesn’t do much when one of the people has one foot out the door. It’s often a tactic used so the person leaving can say they tried everything.
Let W make arrangements for a session, if she wishes to go. Having to do the organizing and planning has her put in the effort and she could be less likely to just “be there”. It kind of flips the script a bit.
Another question: There is a little bit of an internal struggle with this on doing what is right for my daughters sake as well, with holidays, group neighbor family gatherings, family couple outings, etc. For example, Wife says she is "done" but we were supposed to go to her families house for Thanksgiving activities this weekend. It's a bit awkward in general now of course, but me attending makes both parents present for the young one. Or again, if I'm really "moving on" with my life, because at her request she is "done" with the relationship do I say something like, you know I ended up making other plans this weekend with some old friends (which isn't really a lie and could be the case).
I want you to consider something. You aren’t moving on, you are moving forward.
Moving on, is away from something. It has a more finality to it. Moving forward is not being stuck. You go forth, on your yet to be written future path.
That perception and direction paints how you approach things. And will shine through your small mannerisms and those other almost imperceptible actions. Moving on is different than living forward and definitely comes across that way.
It’s the same for the pending MC session. Moving forward vs moving on.
Anyhow, for the above thanksgivings plans. Focusing on you is a method to limit those pleading and needy behaviours that are not helpful. It crafts and reinforces detachment.
Focus on you, does not exclude daughter or family or friends, or even W. It’s not ignoring. It is you living you! And that includes going to thanksgiving. It’s how, and very likely why, you attend that will change.
W needs to feel what she is throwing away. Needs to experience losing you. Time and space is more emotional than physical. Yes, there is a physical distance component, yet the actual affect is less tangible and lives within her.
Doing or seeing family stuff is an excellent way to illustrate what she is giving up. For example:
You - Hey W, daughter and I are going out to get a Christmas tree. Want to come along?
W - No. Christmas is dumb. (moping around and brooding)
You - Oh, I’m sorry you feel that way. See you in a couple hours.
Then you and daughter go. And have a great time.
Do those family things. Offer to include W, and let her choose. If she comes along, great. If she doesn’t, great. Either way, you are doing great.
Focusing on you. You are part of your daughter’s life. She wants thanksgiving , Christmas, birthdays, friends over. There will be boyfriends, driving lessons, etc. Focusing on you, definitely includes her and being a great dad. Move forward, not on.
Folks do consider “for our daughter’s sake”. Thing is, it truly is for your sake too. Doing best by your daughter will serve you.
New and improved you would unlikely make other plans while his family is attending a thanksgiving function. The hanging out with friends is a fall back to the old you.
I was 23 when we had our daughter and I know I didn't always make the most mature decisions like prioritizing my family instead of hanging out with friends, going to the gym, or even working long hours.
Time to be better and make those changes permanent. That is what focusing on you and moving forward is really about.
Have a great day.
D
Good morning br, I’m sorry you are going through this. I’m 8 months into my journey and it’s still in limbo. Please do your self a huge favor and really listen to the great advice you have and will have received. I just this week admitted to myself that I’m still trying to nice W back. It’s doesn’t work. I’ve struggled to GAL and 180, but I’m refocused now. The thing that would have helped me the most, is detaching. It’s hard and I’m still working at it. When I manage to detach, I usually can see a difference in how she acts as well. Something I’ve also struggled with is telling her how much I love her. Finally stopped that. You can’t love her enough to fix this. Stay strong for your daughter, my kids keep me going. Good luck my friend.
LH19:
Thanks for the advice. I think I see how I'm going to handle the MC situation now.
You are certainly on to something here. About 5 years ago, there was a traumatic event (nothing marital wise or anything) that happened to me and wife was really really there for me. I don't want to talk about the event specifically but it happened at a terrible time as we had just built and moved into our dream home, new subdivision, new friends, etc. Along with this traumatic event, I also lost my job where I made a substantial amount of money, lost my benefits, etc. There was concern on whether we were going to be able to keep our lifestyle/house.
We had been together for 10 years, loved and cared for each other deeply, and decided to marry. There were also many good reasons to do so like benefits, etc. We both did want it.
Now since the WAW stuff has come out, she has said things like our marriage to her was just a continuation of our existing long relationship whereas for me I saw it as better or worse until the end. She wanted to be married and loved me very much but said a lot of factors went into the decision which is true to a degree. I also think she thought this way until she didn't and possibly saying it now as a justification for being a WAW.
After the job loss, I buckled down, found a new job almost immediately, and "kept the lights" on so to speak and have all this time.
So the healing process from this traumatic event did take some time and I had periods where I personally went into a dark place and isolated. Coupled with that, COVID also happened and that caused a ton of turmoil for us as it did for many people. I had already started working from home 100% even before COVID at this new job. Once COVID hit, Wife and Daughter were also home 100% of the time which was stressful. Daughter was trying to do remote learning while we're working, it was real mess. Not to mention all of the other concern, uncertainty, etc. that came with the virus that we didn't even know.
So between all that, there were definitely times healing/depression kept us in a state of more like roomates and not a great or active sex life. The ironic part is that this year before the blow up I felt like we (or at least I) had really started getting our sense of normalcy back with great trips, etc.. But perhaps there had been more damage in those previous years then I thought.
Even a few weeks after the "blow up", we already had this neighborhood weekend couple trip scheduled so we went. I thought the weekend trip went amazing. We actually had sex both nights in the hotel (the other guys I was with didn't even do that). Later when discussions about our relationship got worse after the trip (reflections from the blow up), I mentioned this trip and how I thought we connected really well and she said, ".....yeah, I mean we had sex..". But she still felt like even on that trip we weren't as affectionately connected as she thought we should have been with hand holding, kissing each other goodnight when guys would stay out later for drinks, etc.
I'm still very confident there is not OM. However, not divulging too much here because it's personal, but there is more time she is spending being affectionate "with herself" using new methods if you know what I'm saying. Much more so than before. That is certainly not an affair but probably not relationship healthy. I see that as a very lonely act and obviously we are not in a good state right now so I do to a degree get why it's not me in that place.
DnJ:
Seeing your thoughts on this definitely made me see that me attending the Thanksgiving activities at her families house as the right thing to do. As I dissected what you said, I came to realize that spending time with her family in the past has been a point of contention in our relationship. I have not always went on trips to see her family (2-3 hours away from us), etc. and I know that has hurt her in the past. I would stay at home or work that weekend, etc.
I don't think I'm necessarily unique in not wanting to always spend time with the mother-in-law, her sister and her kids, etc. But I think moving forward as the new me, focusing on me, and detaching like I've committed to, may start to make her really think.
MikeP:
I hear you, I spent the past two months doing exactly what I shouldn't have with too many texts/questions, pouring my heart out to reconsider, trying to show photos of amazing times/trips and birth of our daughter, surprising with gifts, writing heartfelt cards, etc. and NONE of it worked. I think it certainly conflicted her at times and made her feel like she was being selfish (which she has admitted multiple times) but since the decision was made in her mind, there was still no undoing it. By this point, she thinks she has a right to feel what she feels and to be selfish.
br4nd0n,
I'm still very confident there is not OM.
I hate to say this, but you need to mentally prepare yourself for the possibility - and probably likelihood - that your wife is having an affair, at least emotionally if not physically (and don't take comfort in an EA, which is just as bad if not worse than PAs for women). I know at least Kind18 said this above but almost every single situation on this board has some sort of affair factor...even when the poster swears up and down that one couldn't possibly be happening. I'm talking like 98%. I know that's tough to hear, but want you to have a realistic picture of what's going on.
Sorry you're in this situation. It's one of most difficult things people go through in their life. But it's good you came here for support - there are a lot of folks who know what you're going through and want to help.
I'm going to read your thread and respond in detail later, but wanted to chime in briefly now to show support.
BL42:
So here's the deal. I'm new to this particular EA concept so bare with me.
Where does the line of an Emotional Affair and close Friendship differ? And where should that concern line be? And what should I do?
She has a VERY close work friend (female) that she talks to daily, are extremely close, laugh a ton together, and I know they talk about personal and relationship stuff. They just really get each other I think.
Do I think she turns to her for support and shares personal details about our relationship, yes I do. I don't know her well (met once) so she does not know me. It could be very possible that not nice things are said about me from her end, especially when possibly the only accounts of me are when my wife reaches out to her for support for something I've done or our rough time, etc.
This person is also married and lives quite far away so they don't spend time away from work (3 days a week) with each other or away from phone/texting.
br, my wife was having an affair with a coworker from December until April without me knowing. I had know idea. In hindsight there were signs but I wasn’t looking. It started as an EA and I’m positive it turned physical despite her denial. I’m only telling you this so you can be prepared for the worst. It’s a hard thing to deal with. My wife still works with him and it [censored]. Be ready and try to mentally prepare. Not sure how to you do that, good luck.
br4nd0n,
I'm new to this particular EA concept so bare with me.
Where does the line of an Emotional Affair and close Friendship differ?
I'm no expert, but I'd say the line is where you feel comfortable being open about it vs. what you feel needs to be hidden. E.g., "H, I'm going to meet up with friend for lunch tomorrow." vs. meet up for lunch and not mention it or trying to actively hide it. Same with the phone or whatever.
So I think you can feel what an EA v. friend is. And it is addicting like a drug. Imagine life has gotten a bit stale and boring, you love your spouse but with work and the kids both sides have fallen off in the romance department and it feels at times like you're just romance. Where is excitement of dating and newlyweds? Then you strike up a friend of the opposite sex at work and it's innocent at first, but then there's a little flirting, and then you start texting each out, again innocent at first, but you're looking forward to seeing them at work and can't help but smile when a text pops up. And you justify to yourself "it's only a friend", and then before you know it there's a text that crosses the line and it gets you really excited and you know it's probably not appropriate but there's nothing physical. Soon you can't wait until they text you in the morning or the next night. You can feel the intoxication. And you think "well H doesn't care about me anymore. He should appreciate me like my 'friend' does. And start having resentment towards your spouse because they're to blame for you being bad. And you know it's not right but you don't want to give up the high of getting that text. And you love your spouse you're just not in love with them any more, and they don't understand you like friend does, and your life would be so much better with friend as a lover and spouse as a co-parent...etc., etc.
Read resources online. I'm sure it's described better than I just dig, but you get the gist.
And where should that concern line be?
Trust your gut. Anything that tingles your "spidey sense" is a concern. My now-ExW texting OM1 "Good night" and "Sweet Dreams" rang major alarm bells in my head. That was before any pictures or physical stuff happened. Others told me it could be nothing, but I knew. I literally observed it progressing over time, based on my snooping.
You can not control her. You have to let go of any notion you have there that you can stop her from taking the path she is going to take.
Instead, listen to the experienced posters here and follow their advice...even if it's counterintuitive and seems scary. Focus 100% of your time and efforts on you and your daughter. Improve as a man. Be the best dad you can be. Detach from W and the notion that you being a married couple and nuclear family is the only way you can lead a happy life. Start getting yourself in better shape, more stylish clothing, practice attraction in interactions.
In essence, DB'ing.
She has a VERY close work friend (female) that she talks to daily, are extremely close, laugh a ton together, and I know they talk about personal and relationship stuff. They just really get each other I think.
Not sure about this same-sex relationship as an affair partner, unless you think your W might be into women. But definitely could be validating, encouraging, enabling W's bad behavior.
Do I think she turns to her for support and shares personal details about our relationship, yes I do. I don't know her well (met once) so she does not know me.
It could be very possible that not nice things are said about me from her end, especially when possibly the only accounts of me are when my wife reaches out to her for support for something I've done or our rough time, etc.
Very likely. And much of that could be lies. I know for a fact ExW told friends and family ridiculous lies about me. E.g., "he would've allow the kids to eat pancakes". I'm assuming to get them sympathetic to her "plight" and accept her having an affair and/or divorcing me.
br4nd0n,
Lots of great advice already from experienced posters. DnJ, Kind18, LH19, and Spiral are all seasoned board members. Listen to what they say and really take it to heart and implement their advice.
Two particular comments I want to highlight:
The point is to respect what she says. She says she is done with the relationship. Respect that. Listen to her. And no pressure.
W needs time and space to relax her feelings and let the other ones surface. She has lots to process and reconcile.
It's incredibly hard to do when you feel like your marriage is at risk and family is falling apart and your instinct is telling you to pursue and "fix" it, but you really truly do need to give space. You need to give her more space than she wanted or is comfortable with and starts to wonder if she really does want to lose you. No pressure, no pursuit, no begging, no pleading.
Have you read
Sandi2's 37 Rules yet?
Consider making your highest priorities building your relationship with your daughter and improving yourself for you. And there's no need to chase your W. You'll probably find that she will stay on the periphery of your life, no matter how many times she says that she's completely done.
Shift your focus and efforts away from W and onto you and your daughter. Time to start improving yourself as a man and be the best father you can be.
"I will take care of me for you, if you will take care of you for me." -Jim Rohn
MikeP:
I appreciate it. I know several on here are quite concerned that I'm being naive about the possibility of my wife having an affair and I'm really not. Even before I got on here on the forums when the blow up happened, I've been really investigating this possibility with my senses fully up to it.
I'm very well connected and skilled in this kind of thing and there just is no signs of an OM. Earlier when I was texting a ton after the blow up and not communicating well, I brought whether she was seeing/sleeping with someone else to see what she would say and said she absolutely had not and would not ever in all the years we've been together. She said she has always been careful with male co-workers to not even send the wrong signal ever or for anyone to get the wrong idea.
Not being naive and really investigating this, there just isn't anything there.
I'm not giving up on this as I think it's a continual validation but so far just hasn't yielded anything.
BL42:
I think your example of the EA makes perfect sense and I would totally agree if I found that my wife had a male "friend" in this capacity whether that male was single, married, or divorced on their part for that matter.
But as I mentioned above, it just doesn't exist.
The only thing is this extremely close work friend of my wife. She doesn't hide the fact she is always talking to her, many times on speaker in the kitchen, etc. and them just being dumb with each other.
But through text and instant message I know they talk about relationship stuff, stuff about me, stuff about our daughter, more personal stuff you would a close friend, etc.
And your right, this is a same-sex work friend. This women is also married so I don't see and haven't seen any signs of a romantic connection. In all my years of being with my wife, I don't believe there is interest in that way or if there is, has never been more than internal or maybe fantasy in her head maybe.
But again, when they talk about our relationship, specifically if my wife is talking to her about something that I did in her mind wrong, then we get two brains to say this guy is not good. This friend is also late 30's and doesn't have any kids of her own (only cats) so her giving any advice to my wife on our or my wrong parenting is not productive.
What I see from my wife is someone who has really been working on her weight/appearance, reading an absolute ton (more books in a month than most do in years/lifetime), and as I mentioned in a post above has been being affectionate "with herself" quite a lot which hasn't always been the case.
In my experience all of these years, she has always been a really good person with a good heart. Since this blow up happened, she has said so many times these past two months that she knows she is being selfish and that she feels like a jerk, and that she knows I'm trying so hard because I love her but it's still not changing her mind, and that she still fells shut off, confused, overwhelmed, and struggling. It's like she wants her mind to change but since she vocalized it that night, she can't help but to digest/feel it and not get over it no matter what.
But I'm also really not underestimating how much I screwed up pressuring her before I got to these forums. I look back at our communications and she just felt so much damn pressure and felt exhausted mentally. I was just doing everything Michele's last resort techniques say not to do.
But not that I know I'm changing my strategy and seeing where it goes. Maybe her "done" truly was all the things I was doing to pressure (not intentionally obviously).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, another confusing thing was that unlike most years where we have people over for Thanksgiving it was just our family of 3 who went out to a nice restaurant for a change. It was quite nice and even after the "I'm done with the relationship" talk this week, she has a picture of the family taken at the restaurant and posts it to social media like we are still one big happy family.
I'm still committed to my new detachment strategy but it's stuff like this that is just so confusing.
What I see from my wife is someone who has really been working on her weight/appearance, reading an absolute ton (more books in a month than most do in years/lifetime), and as I mentioned in a post above has been being affectionate "with herself" quite a lot which hasn't always been the case.
I’m sorry, but that’s classic affair behaviour, even if it’s just an emotional affair at this point.
The only thing is this extremely close work friend of my wife. She doesn't hide the fact she is always talking to her, many times on speaker in the kitchen, etc. and them just being dumb with each other.
But through text and instant message I know they talk about relationship stuff, stuff about me, stuff about our daughter, more personal stuff you would a close friend, etc.
And your right, this is a same-sex work friend. This women is also married so I don't see and haven't seen any signs of a romantic connection. In all my years of being with my wife, I don't believe there is interest in that way or if there is, has never been more than internal or maybe fantasy in her head maybe.
But again, when they talk about our relationship, specifically if my wife is talking to her about something that I did in her mind wrong, then we get two brains to say this guy is not good. This friend is also late 30's and doesn't have any kids of her own (only cats) so her giving any advice to my wife on our or my wrong parenting is not productive.
That’s a lot about her. Trust me when I say (other than respecting their wishes and walking in the other direction) there is NOTHING you can do to analyse, understand, change or repair a woman who is at this point. You just can’t.
All LBS come to this site, and write page after page about how their WS/WAS is acting. What they are saying, doing, thinking - what does it all mean, they said xxxx so should I respond yyyy… inevitably there’s sim talk of GAL, and the the next post is once again like a post-game analysis of everything their partner has said/done/how many times they’ve breathed in the last 24 hours and what it could possibly all mean.
I’d encourage you to try and focus your posts more and more on you, and less on her. She’s simmering in the oven. You can’t do anything about her, and if you try, you’re just validating her decision to leave. There is NOTHING you can say or do or realise that will fix this.
The way to a happy future is to drop the rope, let her be, and start kicking life’s butt. Come to the board and tell us how your daughter is going - we went to a baseball game together! Tell us what your lawyer has told you to be careful about/prepared for. Tell us how you are going to do better at your job, what your daily exercise routine is (and what goals you’ve set). Tell us how you are increasing your social circles. Tell us three new hobbies you’ve started. Go wash and vacuum your car, buy some new clothes and aftershave. Find something that terrifies the old you (like skydiving) and go do it!
The answer (whatever that may be - divorce or reconciliation) actually lies within you…
With the marriage counselling, I’d say this:
I feel like counselling with me is just more pressure for you. I feel I’ve made what I want (reconciliation) very clear. But I respect that you need to work out yourself what you want, so there’s no point me going with you until you decide what you want. You can either cancel the appointment, or you can go along on your own to get some advice if you think that might be helpful. I’ve organised to go to a bar with some mates and have buffalo wings/beers and watch the game. Here’s the number if you want to cancel.
And then happily run off and do something super fun with your daughter.
You must leave immediately after. Don’t get drawn into a discussion under any circumstances. And don’t say it without anything other than a big smile on your face and super relaxed/happy. If you say it anxiously, angrily or without conviction, she will think you’re forcing her to decide if she’s in or out and so she’ll lose her sh**
Whatever you do, don’t say “let me know what you decide.” That’s pressure. She needs to believe you don’t give a flying fk whether she goes or not.
Hello br
I'm new to this particular EA concept so bare with me.
Where does the line of an Emotional Affair and close Friendship differ? And where should that concern line be? And what should I do?
An affair is a sexual relationship, romantic friendship, or passionate attachment in which at least one of the participants is married to someone else.
The PA, physical affair, is basically when things turn sexual.
An EA, emotional affair, is when sexual encounter has not happen and things are romantic friendship and/or passionate attachment.
An affair crosses the line into being unfaithful; be it physical or emotional. A close friendship does not have romantic intent, nor is it unfaithful to one’s marriage or vows.
We speak of the two types of A for clarity and in discussion of what to do and possible time frames, prognosis, etc.
A straight up PA is likely not going to last. Lies and deceit and sneaking around makes a terrible foundation to form a relationship. Like building upon sand, it’s foundation is weak and unstable.
An EA is much more in their mind. Heck, some never even meet in real life, just texts and pictures and such. Then there is the whole stalking, and other unhealthy attachments that one can be drawn into. An emotional affair is much more a fantasy. It is more make believe. One hasn’t seen the other person warts and all. It is much easier to “believe” they are the bee’s knees. And it is tougher to slay a fantasy.
I want to express to you it is perfectly normal and healthy to ask questions and relay what’s going on with W and in your situation. Everyone requires a certain amount of understanding before they can let go.
So come here and post, vent, ask, seek guidance, work to understand,
and tell us about your hobbies and life. You will have a lot to work through and most folks do not have people close by in real life that have been through the wringer or will so freely talk about it. This forum is pretty amazing when you think about it.
I understand the well meaning advice and attempting to propel you to detachment. However, you have a path to walk, and there are no short cuts. Posting and talking about details here also gets them out of your system and can prevent you from reacting to W. Besides, you literally got here yesterday.
D
What I see from my wife is someone who has really been working on her weight/appearance, reading an absolute ton (more books in a month than most do in years/lifetime), and as I mentioned in a post above has been being affectionate "with herself" quite a lot which hasn't always been the case.
br,
My EW did the same in the six months prior to BD, excessive working out, cosmetic procedures, weight loss, and eventually purchased a "personal massager" or two. Although she didn't start the PA's until after she filed for the D a year after she left, I eventually discovered that she was having a fantasy affair with a 17 year old student she met while chaperoning a high school trip to Europe. MLCers are messed up. They will get their fix one way or another.
Taz
Taz:
Thank you for that.
While I still have my senses up to the possibility of an EA or PA, but through my verification I haven't found evidence of this so far.
When I think back about the timeline and went through old texts between us:
July - Starts reading a ton. Finished 10 books in the month. I don't really think anything of it.
August - I actually get her a kindle for her birthday because she was spending a ton of money on physical books.
At this same moment, I also expressed to her that I wanted to work on more intimacy, etc. (wanting us to have more sex). She then very casually says she "...had also been thinking about that part of our relationship...affection in general and wanting to work more on our relationship with communication, intimacy, parenting, being more of a team. At this same time, she again very subtlety says "...I also have some body image stuff to work through and I have some built up resentment that I've never want to deal with or communicate". She also says "...it's easier for her to go through the motions, ignore, and push me away and admits that is not right".
So at this time, since it was literally the first time I heard this, I didn't think THAT much about it because I didn't understand the severity of what she was saying. At that time, I didn't really even understand resentment and how dangerous it is to a relationship. I figured it was just something we would both just work on.
Through the month of August we had some good times. I remember we got a weekend alone without our daughter for a really nice date night, intimacy, etc. and also a really nice getaway family weekend trip.
September - Starts being really strict about her diet. Sometime this month she gets a personal massager and didn't tell me she did. Towards the end of the month is when the blow up happened and I think the blow up came out quite unplanned. It just came to a head that particular night. It wasn't a calculated, pre-planned thing on how she was going to tell me all this stuff regarding the deep resentment, etc.
End of September/October through now has been me really trying to fix things when I found out the severity of the situation and the fact she didn't know if she wanted to be with me anymore. Which if you've read my previous posts, obviously hasn't worked at all and how I got here and how I'm changing my strategy and moving forward.
What kind of books is she reading?
LH19:
I don't know everything but I know a lot of Colleen Hoover. Which I know she is known for romance and young adult fiction but she is also like insanely popular right now. Not sure there is an exact conclusion to draw from that or not.
Romance novels and being overly affectionate with herself. You definitely have a different WAW.
LH19:
Interesting. What do you normally see in that regard of WAW?
I again went through all our texts these past two months since the blow up.
I see someone that has seen and acknowledged my changes for the better but her walls aren't coming down. Someone really struggling on what she actually wants. Some that loves me but has affirmed that love and resentment aren't mutually exclusive and can love me and not appreciate how she feels she has been treated for however long. Thinks I have done a 180 but ultimately hasn't changed her mind. Overwhelmed with pressure and tapped out emotionally until earlier this week of the "I'm done"with the relationship".
Since getting on here, obviously only since really Wednesday. I've been polite, I don't ask any questions unless she talks to me, no more "I love you goodnight", etc. Focusing on me and my daughter.
I didn't even let going to her families house this weekend be a question of whether or not I would attend. Daughter asked (in the presence of both of us what time we were leaving), and I said WE were leaving at X time. Internally thinking that the new/changed me would never not be where his family is during a Thanksgiving celebration and despite the tension between me and W, I'm going to focus on being the best me I can.
She loves you but she’s not in love with you. Standard WAW jiberesh.
We typically see affairs EA and PAs. I have read the term Fantasy affairs on here and I believe there was a poster whose W was having a fantasy affair with a famous person.
Eventually with time and space she will burn through the resentment. Time will tell if it’s too late.
LH19:
Yeah, I almost wonder if there isn't anything with someone in particular. Like maybe the fantasy is just the general desire for something different than me in the future where she will be happy.
And yeah, I get that time will burn through the resentment but how much time. Being in limbo is ridiculous.
I mean there is a real element on my side that just thinks this is beyond unfair that she never communicated these things and powered on pushing me away.
Then when the blow up happens, I get blindsided and heartbroken. I fully commit to fixing things and I'm not even given a chance because she is already fully shut off.
When I was young my mom use to tell me “son life isn’t fair”.
You only stay in limbo as long as you want to stay in limbo.
Your only chance is to become a man only a fool would leave.
LH19:
I hear you. Still really blows
During these past two months, the emotion on my side has mostly been extremely hurt/heartbroken/worried about possibly loosing my wife...a bit of frustration and just not understanding her side on why she is struggling so much.
Now that she dropped the "I'm done", it's like the frustration is the highest emotion.
I had lunch with a good friend the day after and left my ring at home (just frustrated with everything). Then I saw my wife wearing hers and I swallowed my pride, took a breath, and reminded myself what I need to do.
Sure does blow. I’ve never experienced anything like the feeling of your family slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it.
Yep she’s got her own internal struggles going on right now so rest assure she’s not feeling great right now either.
You got a long haul ahead of you so the best thing you can do is eat right, exercise and get good sleep. Your ride is just beginning and you’re going to need your strength.
Do not be passive aggressive and make decisions right now like taking your ring off. Just try to get through today. This is going to take many months/years to play itself out. I can promise you that you will not always feel like you do right now.
…I swallowed my pride, took a breath, and reminded myself what I need to do.
Good for you.
Decisions, especially big life altering decisions, based solely or mostly upon emotions will lead to regret.
Do feel your emotions. Experience them in a safe place and safe manner. Let them wash over and through you.
Make decisions using reason and logic. And taking a breath or two helps quite a bit.
Hang in there. You got this!
D
br4nd0n,
I brought whether she was seeing/sleeping with someone else to see what she would say and said she absolutely had not and would not ever in all the years we've been together. She said she has always been careful with male co-workers to not even send the wrong signal ever or for anyone to get the wrong idea.
They will straight up cold-blooded lie to your face. If she is having an EA or PA, she is absolutely NOT the sweet woman you've known for years whom you call W. They will lie, and lie, and lie some more until they get caught red-handed and even then only admit to only what they have to and has been proven and then lie about the remaining details. I confronted my ExW several times, revealing more and more than I knew each time (before I came to this forum; NOT a recommended path) and she flat out lied to my face each time. She didn't know but I was following along in great detail and knew everything. It was bizarre to me like gaslighting I couldn't even believe she could be saying that when I knew for a fact what was going on. So...your W telling you to your face that she's absolutely not with someone else doesn't mean anything.
Now...lots of discussion on this thread about a possible EA/PA which may or may not be happening. Part of that is my fault - I just wanted you to start preparing yourself for that possibly based on the long history of situations we've read here - but really
this shouldn't a focus for you right now.
Like I said above...
1) Give her more space than she wanted or is comfortable with and starts to wonder if she really does want to lose you. No pressure, no pursuit, no begging, no pleading.
2) Shift your focus and efforts away from W and onto you and your daughter. Time to start improving yourself as a man and be the best father you can be.
3) Read
Sandi2's 37 Rules
BL42:
Yeah I had already done my own validation of not seeing any signs of EA/PA when I asked that. After the blow up, I just wanted to see what she would say.
I’m not saying she is a saint here. What she’s done with suppressing all this resentment and being closed off after she finally came out with it is really messed up. But through validation, I haven’t seen signs of an EA/PA. I’m well connected and I would have seen it.
That said, I agree with your points on what my focus should be regardless.
br, your wife sounds a lot like mine. She would not admit anything other than there was another man. Wouldn’t say who or where she met him. Took me 5 minutes on Fb to figure it out. Still claims 8 months later that it wasn’t physical, bs. Would not give me any details about anything. Would lie to my face about trivial things and then I would bust her. It’s like you are dealing with a stranger that is a compulsive liar. I hope you are correct, it’s going to really hurt if you’re not. Be prepared. I went from disbelief to utter sadness to being furious. Sometimes in the span of 10 minutes. Nothing in my life prepared me for this. Fortunately, I mostly kept my cool. I’ve screwed up at times and let my anger get the better of me but nothing terrible. When I feel sad or want to give up, I think about my kids. They help me focus. I’m not standing solely for my kids, I do still love my wife and think we can make it work. It’s ultimately up to her, not me. Use this forum, these folks will keep you on the right track.
This is going to be a big week coming up as this past week was the "I'm done with the relationship". Whether she is truly "done" with the relationship or was "done" with feeling the pressure remains to be seen.
I did want to ask this as I wasn't sure I saw a consensus on the best way to handle it.
I don't want to do anything that seems like I'm niceing her back but should I keep making an effort to do dishes, cleaning more, etc.?
Over these past two months she has recognized these efforts but obviously still didn't move the needle at all.
Since her thinking I don't always help out around the house enough and has been a point of contention in our relationship in the past, what do you think?
I don't want to come off like a doormat or desperate/weak and that she just now expects me to do all the cleaning when she isn't coming around at all. But then again, it's tricky because she's like almost "firing" me. But if I don't do these things, that she has now acknowledged, I might regress on that positive.
Let me know what you think.
This weekend went well for me. I attended the Thanksgiving celebration with her family despite the recent tension. When I got there, the old me would have mostly stayed in the living room watching TV and talking with the father-in-law about sports. Instead, the new me helped my brother-in-law do most of the cooking and preparing. I didn't focus on my W at all. If she noticed, great, but I did it to be the new best me.
My sister-in-law has a 2 year old that really took me this weekend. The 2 year old and my W are super close when they are together. At times she turned down time with my wife for me to play with her, pick her up, sit with her, etc. My wife didn't make a big deal of it or say anything when it was happening but I know she observed all of this and I think she was impressed.
So the best thing to do is your share. No more and no less.
As for Thanksgiving the problem is she can see right through and it probably actually pi$$es her off that it took being done with you to make these changes.
Curious why you think talking to your FIL about sports is a bad thing?
LH19:
You might be right but I still wonder if there was a side/part of her that was impressed by some of it even if she doesn’t want to admit it.
Talking sports with FIL isn’t a problem in itself but what I mean is that instead of being lazy and doing that and just waiting for when someone says it’s time to eat, I spent time helping and bonding with her brother in law in the kitchen.
Maybe. Why didn’t you want to bond with him before? What changed that all of a sudden you want to bond now?
but should I keep making an effort to do dishes, cleaning more, etc.?Over these past two months she has recognized these efforts but obviously still didn't move the needle at all....Let me know what you think.
I was a house cleaning, dish washing ninja after BD. I pretty much proved that the items on the list were not the true reason. I was even more of a cleaning, dish-washing ninja after I moved out and had to do these things only for me and the kids. I kept my little rental house immaculate.
As LH19 said, do your fair share, no more and no less. If she is slacking, call her on it. Do not let fear control you.
If you think the house is dirty, clean it. If you don't, do something else productive with your time.
If you use dishes clean them. Let her clean hers. If she complaints, listen and understand where her frustration is coming from.
This is my new normal:
W:"Would you take out the trash?"
Me:"Of course, would you mind getting me a glass of ice water?"
When I was single:
Woman at the bar:"Would you buy me a drink?"
ME":Absolutely, after you buy me one."
Do not be supplicating.
br4nd0
Your W isn't thinking of leaving because you don't do enough dishes, and all of a sudden cozying up to her family and watching to see how she reacts comes off as disingenuous and is a form of pressure on her. Right now you're acting out of fear that any little thing you do wrong might be the final nail, but you can't live the rest of your life walking on eggshells and attempting to be perfect. Like the others said do what's right and do your fair share...but do not become a man running around to grant her every whim. Not only is it unsustainable but it's also unattractive.
LH19:
You might be right but I still wonder if there was a side/part of her that was impressed by some of it even if she doesn’t want to admit it.
Mind reading is one of the seven deadly sins of DBing. It will just get you no where. Trust me, you have no idea what is going on in that head of hers, and to be frank, you don't want to know!
br4nd0
Your W isn't thinking of leaving because you don't do enough dishes, and all of a sudden cozying up to her family and watching to see how she reacts comes off as disingenuous and is a form of pressure on her. Right now you're acting out of fear that any little thing you do wrong might be the final nail, but you can't live the rest of your life walking on eggshells and attempting to be perfect. Like the others said do what's right and do your fair share...but do not become a man running around to grant her every whim. Not only is it unsustainable but it's also unattractive.
Quick story. If you see my timeline in my signature you will see that BD happened for me the day before Christmas Eve. This meant that we had several days full of extended family events to attend over the next several days.
Brandon, not sure if you are a religious man, but I believe God's providence had a lot to do with the outcome in my situation. At Bible Class Sunday morning (this was 12/24, the day after BD) the teacher talked about how spouses needed to stick out the tough times. Too many spouses when things got rough took the highway, instead of digging in (like their vows said) and working through it. Then we had Christmas Eve at my side and my parents gave all of the married couples gift cards to restaurants and free babysitting for a "date night".
But the biggest one, later that week we got together with her side. As we were leaving her grandmother pulled me in to hug me and said she admired the man I was, that I took care of my family, and that she would be praying for me. My wife was standing right there and heard every word.
Here is the key Brandon, I hadn't done anything different. Don't become someone you aren't to impress her. Like BL says it is not sustainable, plus she will see right through it. Almost all of us have heard the words "Its too little too late." or "You are only doing this to get me to stay."
Become the best VERSION of YOU, don't become someone you aren't.
So this is an update I didn't want to have to give.
I did listen everyone's feedback about telling her that there wasn't a reason to attend anymore counseling sessions until she figured out what she wanted. But I thought to myself, my WAW is different because there doesn't seem to be an EA/PA. Maybe it can be different I thought to myself.
I also had more conversations with my wife than I should have. If you read my initial post, I talk about her really struggling with resentment in our relationship. I was annoyed that she hadn't wrote out the resentments like the counselor asked her to do because that felt like she wasn't even trying and she told me that she actually had legitimately forgiven for the resentments, believes my sincere apology, and also sincerely believes that once the bomb drop happened, something in me changed and made we want to be a better person.
All that said, she still "feels done" with the relationship.
I was at least feeling better that she had forgiven me for the resentments and thought well if only we could get some alone time together I could fix this.
So we go to couples counseling and we had an opportunity to go out just the two of us this past Friday while our daughter was at an overnight birthday party.
She really wasn't into going but she agreed with the assist of the counselor as long as I wouldn't follow up on how the date went, no analysis of the romantic side whatsoever, until back in counseling session.
So our alone date on Friday:
It goes amazing! We went to an intimate place she loves for a drink before dinner. In a non-pressuring way, I got her to hold my hand. I said, "Are you ready for our first date?" with a smile and stuck out my hand. We then held hands everywhere we went and it felt amazing!
We then go to an intimate dinner place I picked out and it goes amazing as well. I felt like she was really giving reconnecting a chance for the first time since the bomb drop. There was undeniable chemistry and connection. I got her to talk about many special memories we had in the past in our relationship, when we first met, vacations, when I was most romantic, etc. and we relived those together and discussed how we felt in those moments.
When we got home after dinner, in a very non pressure way, I asked about initiating intimacy (massage) thinking I would completely respect her saying no.
Well to my surprise, she said YES!
We got intimate that night.
I woke up feeling the best I had in months. I thought I was going to come back here and tell you guys I cracked the code.
Wellllllll, starting from the morning after, I immediately sensed withdrawn behavior again.
What I also realized is that we actually had Saturday night without our Daughter all night before too. But she scheduled time to have dinner and hang out with a girlfriend without telling me. Which hanging out with a friend isn't a big deal but it made me think that she already made the plans with her friend as an escape as it if it was predetermined that our date on Friday would fail. As if she couldn't possibly want another intimate night together on Saturday either.
So I try to keep the momentum going from our Friday date. While she goes out with her friend, I use GAL principle and go out with an old friend of mine as well. Just dinner as well so I get home around the same time.
Earlier in the day I asked if she wanted to watch a movie when we both got home but she didn't say yes or no, kind of avoided it.
Well so she goes out with her friend, I go out with mine. She probably beats me home about 20-25 minutes. I send her a picture of my friends new Corvette because I was riding with him....no text back.
Well I come in the door, hoping we can watch a movie, maybe have some wine, etc. and she is already in bed.....I knew things were not looking good.
Sunday morning, I tried to be lightly intimate and was rejected. Again, I can see things are not good which I'm really confused by since we had such a great time on Friday and even had sex.
So Sunday is really tense and withdrawn. We have our meeting with the Counselor today.
We talk about everything that happened and she still feels done with the relationship.
She said that it didn't change her mind and that was the apprehension of her going on the date to begin with.
So now we're at a place where were going to do an official "break" where we still live together obviously but no pressure, etc. She did admit that the more she feels pressure, the more it makes her feel "done" with the relationship and withdraw....basically the exactly what divorce busting says lol
Anyways, we're supposed to talk on Thursday of what that break looks like.
So I'm pretty much back where I started. Confusing but it is what it is.
I know that once the official "break" is there, I need to follow the DB principles, GAL, be the best father to my daughter, no texting/requests for dates, and just be a better me in hopes that she comes back around.
But this time, waiting for HER to talk about the relationship when shes ready.
I’m sorry you’re feeling down. It’s terrible to feel rejected.
I feel like you avoided the advice of the board, and got burnt as a result.
You need to scrub what you thought you learned from this board, and start again from scratch.
If you thought one dinner date, a massage and sex was going to fix an entire relationship, perhaps you haven’t studied the welcome thread, read all the links, gone to IC to look at yourself, and haven’t the foggiest idea that what you are dealing with here is a 3, 4, 5 or 10 year battle - which, most of the time, won’t end in reconciliation.
There is no quick fix here. There’s no pushing or seducing or cornering this person into loving you and wanting to be with you.
You need to go back to the welcome thread and first principles. DB, separation, divorce/reconciliation is an oscillating, winding journey along an incredibly long road. You’ve barely turned the key to start the ignition.
Hello B
Ok, so lesson learned. No pressure.
Focus firmly on you. That doesn’t mean totally ignore her. Be kind and cordial, yet treat her more like a roommate. Which I suspect the upcoming break is going to morph in to.
Lots of time and space. You now have irrefutable first hand evidence of how quickly she can flip the switch. Or appear to. Intimate on Friday, to done Saturday. Give her to her path, while you walk your’s.
Yes, let her lead when she wants to discuss the relationship. However, do not wait. Live and love your life. Be the best version of you. A man only a fool would leave.
Keep moving forward buddy.
D
Kind18:
You are right, I avoided some of the advice. I thought I knew my wife so well that I could fix this using my own technique, my romanticism, my own charm I guess....obviously I was wrong.
It's not that I thought one dinner date, massage, and sex was going to fix the entire relationship but maybe for her to start to at least see/acknowledge the connection we had and tilt in the direction or tick the ball forward of wanting to be an active participant in the resolution department.
I really believe with counseling we could get back to the best place we've ever been with intimacy, communication, etc. But it's getting her to be a willing participant that we've had problems with. Without that, there isn't any point.
In counseling I hear my wife say things like, "In my head I've convinced myself I'm done" and so now I "feel done". It's almost like she's in a trance and playing chess against herself and loosing.
And it also pisses me off because I have texts from a month or two ago where she seems so unsure and says thinks like "I think just need time. It feels like too much all at once. Pressure, etc.".
So to now saying "I'm done" so casually, I don't see how she could have complete clarity in that decision that quickly. Which I know is probably because of the pressure and why the break is probably the best thing...but it it blows.
DnJ:
Thanks and yes lesson learned.
Yes, I see how quick she can flip. It was shocking actually going from thinking I would continue the positive momentum from our date and intimacy that night to immediately back to withdrawn.
One thing that really bothered me is the lack of acknowledgement on her side on how well our date together went. The chemistry and connection was undeniable yet she minimized it when we talked in counseling. She said, yeah those were great memories that we relived but it doesn't change how I'm feeling.
Yeah, our conversations were great but when a couple is in a good place, there is an aura of a connection and I felt like we had that. But she is too blind to see it with this convincing herself of "being done".
It's not that I thought one dinner date, massage, and sex was going to fix the entire relationship but maybe for her to start to at least see/acknowledge the connection we had and tilt in the direction or tick the ball forward of wanting to be an active participant in the resolution department.
The issue with that is that often times it is mis-interpreted by the WAW, (WA-women in particular) that things leading to sex reinforces to them that all we cavemen want from them, and all of our gallant efforts eventually lead to just having sex. That we somehow only want them for their bodies and want to forget about them as a person.
Men need the physical aspect before we can engage in the emotional part of sex. Women are wired exactly the opposite of us, in that they need the emotional part of a relationship to have them crave the physical side of things. And I'm not saying that it isn't always that way, yet in a typical long term relationship, that has been my experience with it.
I really believe with counseling we could get back to the best place we've ever been with intimacy, communication, etc. But it's getting her to be a willing participant that we've had problems with. Without that, there isn't any point.
Something to keep in mind with that....
That is YOUR fix, and it may not be hers. She doesn't want or need you to fix this for her. And as long as she is feeling that you are trying to push it, she will rebel against it....
In counseling I hear my wife say things like, "In my head I've convinced myself I'm done" and so now I "feel done". It's almost like she's in a trance and playing chess against herself and loosing.
And it also pisses me off because I have texts from a month or two ago where she seems so unsure and says thinks like "I think just need time. It feels like too much all at once. Pressure, etc.".
So to now saying "I'm done" so casually, I don't see how she could have complete clarity in that decision that quickly. Which I know is probably because of the pressure and why the break is probably the best thing...but it it blows.
Most WAS's will go to great lengths to convince themselves that they did everything imaginable to "fix" the relationship before they can justify them walking away.
In reality, in their minds, they DID do everything that they knew how to do, and just like above, because it doesn't/didn't match what you thought it might look like doesn't make them incorrect.
You are going to find that there are 3 versions of the story. Your side, her side, and somewhere in the middle is where the true story is. And just because your side doesn't match her side, doesn't make her version any less true. It's true to her, and she is the only person that she is concerned with right now.
Yes, I see how quick she can flip. It was shocking actually going from thinking I would continue the positive momentum from our date and intimacy that night to immediately back to withdrawn.
Ahhh....the b!tch switch !!!
Wait until you see it flip in real time ....
One thing that really bothered me is the lack of acknowledgement on her side on how well our date together went. The chemistry and connection was undeniable yet she minimized it when we talked in counseling. She said, yeah those were great memories that we relived but it doesn't change how I'm feeling.
Yeah, our conversations were great but when a couple is in a good place, there is an aura of a connection and I felt like we had that. But she is too blind to see it with this convincing herself of "being done".
Like I said above....It went well according to your version of the truth...
You don't know how it went from her side....
It really could have been a...
Yep, he really went to great lengths just to get some a$$....
You're doing pretty good for it being so early in your situation, yet you need to learn to follow and trust the process....
Most of us posting are coming from the experiences that we've had ...
It appears that you are having a hard time letting go of the woman you think you know. Treat her as someone you just met.
I'm glad you had a good time, but you don't know what she was feeling or thinking. You know what you were. That's that, it sometimes can be that simple. My guess is she went so it's easier to walk away so she can say she tried everything. Just a hunch.
Let go of what happened over the weekend and move forward. The lack of acknowledgement on her end tells you everything.
The more you try to fix your marriage, the more you are going to break it.
What you fear, you will bring to reality. You fear losing her and the M. Do not let fear control you.
As a man reading your post from your POV of what went down, I was rolling my eyes. Nothing attractive or exciting. Supplicating, manipulative, and needy. Stop using sex as a measuring stick.
Was she pursuing you or were you pursing her? Which of these two options sounds like what you want in a relationship.
Embrace every aspect of the DBing principals.
You have to drop the rope. She needs to feel like she has lost you before you have any chance. Put your needs on hold. Give her what she needs.
List out everything that SHE NEEDS. Then list out how you can behave to meet those needs.
This will be one of the hardest things you will ever do. Do it strength and honor.
We are on your side.
That one statement is your problem.
You can’t get ANY WS/WAS to do ANYTHING.
You really are a passenger on this ride. The minute you start trying to direct things, they will rebel.
If you tell a WS/WAW/MLC in crisis they have to accept the sky is blue, they will scream (and also be convinced in their own mind) that it’s pink.
Every time you do stuff like try to seduce her or go to counselling with a view to getting her to realise something or commit to something, you’re getting closer to the end of your marriage.
She needs to work this stuff out for herself and WANT to be with you.
br4nd0n,
Did you read
Sandi2's 37 Rules yet?
What have we been saying directly to you, and what advice have you read from other threads?
*Do NOT engage in MC unless W is fully committed to make the R work.
*Do NOT initiate R talks.
*Do NOT pressure or pursuit.
*Detach
*Give space
How did
anything in your approach/update align with that advice?
BL42,
I know I need to do better.
The truth is, my heart is shattered into a million pieces and I had just refused to accept this is as truly the last and only chance I have in possibly saving the relationship with the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.
It has been really hard for me.
Like I said, I know I need to do better.
br4nd0n,
BL42,
I know I need to do better.
The truth is, my heart is shattered into a million pieces and I had just refused to accept this is as truly the last and only chance I have in possibly saving the relationship with the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.
It has been really hard for me.
Like I said, I know I need to do better.
I know man. It's awful. Incredibly difficult.
You can't change the encounter now, it's in the past - pick yourself up and do better going forward.
You WILL get through this and you WILL be alright - no matter which way it goes.
The truth is, my heart is shattered into a million pieces and I had just refused to accept this is as truly the last and only chance I have in possibly saving the relationship with the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.
We know man 😢 My heart breaks for you.
It’s genuinely the hardest thing you’ll ever go through in your life.
There’s not much more we can say. There’s no magic words to take away your pain.
My only advice is:
- it will get better. Not quickly… but trust me, it will one day be okay
- the best thing you can do right now is exercise your body physically to the point of exhaustion
Hang in there mate.
You’re strapped into a seat on the world’s scariest and most violent roller coaster. You can either scream, cry, rage, attempt to change the direction of the carriage or try to undo the harness - or you can accept there’s nothing you can do right now. Even though it’s terrifying, you’re not going to die, and eventually the ride will end and you’ll be okay.
Time to drop the rope.
The truth is, my heart is shattered into a million pieces
We understand. We have been there.
... truly the last and only chance I have in possibly saving the relationship with the woman I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.
You will have many more chances. The issue is in you behavior. Will she like what she sees? None of us know. But the real question will YOU like what you see in your new behavior?
So br4nd0...what are you doing to make yourself a better, stronger, more attractive man? Be specific. Are you hitting the gym yet? Have you started to upgrade your wardrobe? What self help books are you reading? How's your GAL?
BL42:
Well when I first got the advice, as you saw from my update, I was only halfway applying the principles.
Today was the first day forward since hearing the hard truth yesterday in couples therapy that my W still feels done with the R despite that date we had.
Ready to detach now and I know I have to.
I’ve been into fitness for awhile already. I always lift 4-5 days a week for about an hour.
I already have a muscular build. People can tell I lift weights when they see me.
I’m definitely a fitness bodyfat type build but I’ve never been quite lean/cut enough to have a six pack. It requires an incredible dedication to diet and Ab training.
One of my goals now is to just do it. I’ve always wanted to do it but thought it was just too hard but I’m going to just put in the work for once and do it for me.
I’ve also been making an effort to spend more quality time with my D11. Even just simple things like talking with her more about her day, playing board/card games, etc.
I’m also working on spending more time with good friends of mine. Being in a relationship/married, it’s easy to loose track of time and not see them as often so I’m really working on that.
I need to find other things but that’s a start.
A question - I know you are supposed to do things like connect back with friends and to make her be curious about my whereabouts. Do you tell her what you are doing/going? Or do you just say “hey I made some plans and will be out”.
A question - I know you are supposed to do things like connect back with friends and to make her be curious about my whereabouts. Do you tell her what you are doing/going? Or do you just say “hey I made some plans and will be out”.
Short answer is YES.
Things like this are vague enough:
H:"I will be home late Friday."
If she questions you on when you will be home "Not sure"
If she ask who with H:"Some friends" if she asks again H:"You don't know them"
...yesterday in couples therapy that my W still feels done with the R ....
Do not go to the next one. Make other plans. Do not tell her.
IF SHE ASKS:
In your mind "You made it perfectly clear that you do not want be with me. I do not want to be with a woman who doesn't want to be with me."
Use the LEAST WORDS YOU CAN. I come up with this:
H:"I decided I don't want to go"
Do you tell her what you are doing/going? Or do you just say “hey I made some plans and will be out”.
Why would you go out of your way to tell someone who wants to break your marriage where you are going to be all the time? That makes zero sense. Tell her nothing. If she asks, and only if she asks, then just say “I’m going out with friends.” And then leave immediately. Conversations with WAW/WS are the final nail in the coffin.
And be prepared mentally for interactions in advance. Exit conversations ASAP, as if talking to her is taking you away from fun and a real inconvenience
For example: If she says “Well why all the secrets, why won’t you tell me who you’re going out with?”
Old Brandon: “It’s not a girl, I love you, I’d never go on a date with another woman.”
New Brandon: *With grin and sparkle in your eyes* “Wouldn’t you like to know!”
I already have a muscular build. People can tell I lift weights when they see me.
I’m definitely a fitness bodyfat type build but I’ve never been quite lean/cut enough to have a six pack. It requires an incredible dedication to diet and Ab training.
Maybe your effort for personal growth could be directed someplace else. Going from fit to ripped most likely won't change her mind (or in the future attract a significant more number of ladies).
Only you can figure out what areas to focus on. Take a hard look at your behaviors. You can reflect on how you interact with her. Are there better ways of interacting with a woman? Most likely. None of us have it completely figured out, but with some reading and observations, we can improve. That is what it is about. Having an awareness that there is always a better version of ourselves that we can let shine through.
Conversations with WAW/WS are the final nail in the coffin.
Write this down on the inside of your eyelids.
And be prepared mentally for interactions in advance.
Everything they do is predictable. That is why we call it a script. Get yourself ahead of her and know the script before she does and respond accordingly.
I say this out of kindness, but I think there’s some hard truths you need to hear.
You said this on your very first post:
I started reading a few of these threads and see that one of the big ways I have screwed up since she came out as a walkaway wife is not giving her space.
But then a week or two later you took her out, had a romantic dinner, convinced her to have a massage and eventually had sex.
You also said this in your first post:
Now she has told me she's done with the relationship. It's like she has completely convinced herself that getting over these issues is just too hard and therefore not possible. Like there is just too much to get over and the thought of doing so is just too daunting for her.
Maybe she is really done with the relationship but I think it's also possible that what she is "done" with is me smothering/suffocating her which I did out of stupidity.
So, she told you very clearly she was done in your first post. But today, you said
since hearing the hard truth yesterday
She already told you this weeks ago, it is only now it seems you’re starting to hear it.
You need to back the pressure RIGHT off. The problem here is that you aren’t listening to anyone. She’s been telling you she’s done. We’re telling you the only way to get her back is accept it for now, drop the rope, become a better person and hope that she changes her mind. And meanwhile, because the grief is so strong, you’re pressuring her and getting in her pants.
The date, massage and sex - guaranteed you walked away from it feeling short term vindication and closer to her - meanwhile, she probably walked away feeling like s*** and like she’s made things even worse. She probably has a lot of internal shame about it.
Your grief, your lack of acceptance and your desire to feel close to her physically, at this point, is like a drug fix. Short term it feels great, long term it’s going to ruin everything.
Keep posting. We’re all rooting for you
The point is well taken on not going to the next couples therapy session.
However, where we left the last one after talking about how the date didn't change her mind, still feeling done, etc. was the acknowledgement that we need a "break" as our next step.
Well, we live together and that isn't changing so the counselor kept this next session on the books (scheduled for tomorrow). The counselor kept the session on the book to discuss what a "break" would look like.
I know you guys will have some good ways to communicate that I don't want to go given that particular situation.
One complication that arose immediately was Christmas plans. Me, W, and D were supposed to go to my SIL's for my W's immediate families Christmas celebration next weekend.
I already put it out there that despite the situation between me and W, there was no way I wasn't going to not be where my family was celebrating Christmas. Meaning, I can still drop the rope and detach but "be there" for my D mostly.
The other thing I really need to work on is going around more upbeat/confident/strong. Yesterday/this Morning, I've done a good job dropping the rope but I feel like I'm just coming off upset/annoyed/short with her.
Which I am...I'm heartbroken and I don't want to loose my wife...so It's tough.
brandon, have you ever heard the saying "You can't overnight talk your way out of what you acted for years your way into?"
This is a difficult thing for LBSs to really understand. We all come here looking for the one thing to say or the one thing to do that will turn our situations around. The hard truth is that there is no magic bullet. If there were this forum wouldn't exist. There would be a one chapter book every LBSs could buy that would say: Say this, and do this, and your marriage will be fixed!
I've mostly stepped back and watched. As Kind pointed out, there is a fair amount of denial you are still dealing with. And as R2C is trying to get you to see, you have to change your dynamic with her.
If you keep doing what you are doing you will continue to set yourself up for disappointment. When things do not turn around you will continue to bang your head against the wall. You will continue to have "hearing the hard truth" moments. The fact is that she has made her intentions known unequivocally and you are in the "yeah, but what if I do this and say this" mode.
Marriage counseling has a very low rate of working. That is why Michelle wrote the books to begin with. For decades couples in crisis have gone to couple counseling. And for decades the divorce rate has continued to climb. Also, you have admitted to being bad about giving her space, well MC is certainly NOT giving her space.
What winds up happening is the WAS uses it to try to convince the LBS that separation and divorce is the right path. The LBS is frustrated because they thought MC was to fix things and the WAS isn't doing their part. This is why on the forum we tell LBSs not to do MC, if they are doing it to stop, and then get into IC and work on themselves.
As R2C stated above, date nights are difficult for LBSs because whether we want to admit it or not we attach expectations to it. If things go well we think "Yeah! We are working this out!" Only to be devastated again when we hear inevitably the WAS still wants a separation and/or D. And that is exactly what you've experienced.
It is your situation, you get to decide. But the advice hear will continue to be the same because we've all been through it.
br4nd0n,
The point is well taken on not going to the next couples therapy session.
However, where we left the last one after talking about how the date didn't change her mind, still feeling done, etc. was the acknowledgement that we need a "break" as our next step.
Well, we live together and that isn't changing so the counselor kept this next session on the books (scheduled for tomorrow). The counselor kept the session on the book to discuss what a "break" would look like.
You do not need to go to counseling to discuss a break. If she wants to separate she can pack up her stuff in a box and leave. Period. I'm serious. Good luck w/that, W!
You need to change your mentality from one of fearfulness to embracing it. With the former she sees you as a scared meek guy she can get back whenever she wants. With that latter she thinks "Oh! Wow. He stood up for himself and he's not afraid to lose me. Maybe I should reconsider this..."
Which I am...I'm heartbroken and I don't want to loose my wife...so It's tough.
We know exactly how you feel. It's devastating. Hang in there...it'll be OK in the end.
Brandon, I think I am just starting to get a bit of this detaching and letting go. Listen to the board, heed sound warnings/insights and wrestle/reckon to see what fits. Ask questions, challenge assumptions and perspectives and learn from your mistakes. Own your power and flip the narrative. These are things I’m working on and failing at a lot of the time. It is very very difficult.
Good Morning br4nd0n
A question - I know you are supposed to do things like connect back with friends and to make her be curious about my whereabouts. Do you tell her what you are doing/going? Or do you just say “hey I made some plans and will be out”.
Things like connecting back with friends and other “get a life” activities are for you. You reconnect with friends because you care about them. You try new, and those old forgotten, hobbies because you are investing in yourself. Making one’s spouse curious is a positive byproduct of GAL - not the reason for it.
As for how much detail to tell. It depends on the scenario. Just keep any pressure dialled way down. A general, I’m heading out for a few hours, should suffice. Other times, D and I are getting an Xmas tree. Want to come along?, would be more appropriate. It depends on the scenario, and that day.
Be kind and cordial. Keep your side of the street in order.
I feel like I'm just coming off upset/annoyed/short with her.
Which I am...I'm heartbroken and I don't want to loose my wife...so It's tough.
I understand. It is tough!
And yes, heartbreak hurts plenty.
The anger, the upset, annoyed, being short with her, sweat that out of you. Find a mechanism to process and release those feelings. A nice run. A punching bag. Shovelling snow. Or digging a garden. (It’s -30C here this morning so no gardening for me.
). Do something safe and away from W.
And new feelings will well up again. And need to be processed again. Each time getting a bit easier, a bit better, as you craft new internal pathways of coping and thinking.
Kind and cordial.
Be better, not bitter.
D
You do not need to go to counseling to discuss a break. If she wants to separate she can pack up her stuff in a box and leave. Period. I'm serious. Good luck w/that, W!
I agree.
I think in counselling you’ll get talked into something not beneficial to you. And I primarily mean you, not the relationship.
If she wants a break, you don’t need to discuss it. Don’t need to make it all pleasant and agreed to. Nope! You just don’t block it, is all.
For example. You do not move out of the master bedroom. If she wants a break from you, and things, she can sleep on the couch downstairs. Or in the spare room. Or whatever she figures out.
You don’t move out of the house, or bedroom.
D
You do not need to go to counseling to discuss a break. If she wants to separate she can pack up her stuff in a box and leave. Period. I'm serious. Good luck w/that, W!
I agree.
I think in counselling you’ll get talked into something not beneficial to you. And I primarily mean you, not the relationship.
If she wants a break, you don’t need to discuss it. Don’t need to make it all pleasant and agreed to. Nope! You just don’t block it, is all.
For example. You do not move out of the master bedroom. If she wants a break from you, and things, she can sleep on the couch downstairs. Or in the spare room. Or whatever she figures out.
You don’t move out of the house, or bedroom.
D
This ^! I've been terrible at detaching and doing a lot of the right things. However, I told W in no uncertain terms that I would not be leaving my house or bed. That was an easy, no brainer even for me.
I feel like I'm just coming off upset/annoyed/short with her.
Was upset/annoyed/short with her typically how you behaved when you didn't get your way with her?
Which I am...I'm heartbroken and I don't want to loose my wife...so It's tough.
Do you know when you are 100% most likely to reconcile effectively?
When you no longer care if you do or not.
That's the honest and sad truth. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.
I've definitely backed way off. Trying to "drop the rope".
If you recall, we were supposed to have a marriage counseling session today to discuss what a "break" looks like. Yesterday, I did this instead and was our exchange:
Me: "I just wanted to let you know I've decided not go to the counseling session tomorrow if you want to let XXX know. We don't need another meeting to discuss a break. I feel like counseling has just been more pressure for you. I feel I already have made what I want very clear these past few months and there just isn't a reason for us to go any longer for now. I want to respect what you said about feeling done with the relationship."
W: "Ok, I still may go."
Me: "That's fine. You can go on your own tomorrow to get some advice if you think that might be helpful"
We haven't talked much. We had an event/concert yesterday for our D11 so there was a little exchange but not tons.
She has also been offering me food that she has been making. She also offered to pick me up something along with what she was for my daughter when she was out and about. I have been politely declining as I've been doing my own thing in the food/diet arena (we pretty much always have anyways).
I have also backed off on doing dishes/emptying dishwasher. I haven't had any of my own dishes so they have all been hers from cooking, etc.
This morning I saw her doing the dishes, emptying the dishwasher, and it made me realize she hadn't had to do any of that for a long time since the BD.
I've just been focusing on my daughter and doing things for her.
br4nd0n,
I've definitely backed way off. Trying to "drop the rope".
Good! But keep in mind consistent actions...it can't be a day or two and then flip back.
Me: "I just wanted to let you know I've decided not go to the counseling session tomorrow if you want to let XXX know. We don't need another meeting to discuss a break. I feel like counseling has just been more pressure for you. I feel I already have made what I want very clear these past few months and there just isn't a reason for us to go any longer for now. I want to respect what you said about feeling done with the relationship."
W: "Ok, I still may go."
Me: "That's fine. You can go on your own tomorrow to get some advice if you think that might be helpful"
A little wordy maybe, and too many "I feels" perhaps, but sounds decent overall.
I have also backed off on doing dishes/emptying dishwasher.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do your share - just don't bend over backwards doing everything in the hopes it'll save the M.
This morning I saw her doing the dishes, emptying the dishwasher, and it made me realize she hadn't had to do any of that for a long time since the BD.
Then she'll be doing them quite a bit more if she decides to move out.
I've just been focusing on my daughter and doing things for her.
Perfect. You and your daughter should be your priority.
Trying to "drop the rope".
What does "dropping the rope" mean to you?
Powerful action Brandon. Applause.
Brandon, great job! Terrific steps in the right direction.
One slight modification, and it is more an art than a science.
Me: "I just wanted to let you know I've decided not go to the counseling session tomorrow if you want to let XXX know. We don't need another meeting to discuss a break. I feel like counseling has just been more pressure for you. I feel I already have made what I want very clear these past few months and there just isn't a reason for us to go any longer for now. I want to respect what you said about feeling done with the relationship."
While this isn't bad. It is still too many words. I would suggest:
"I've decided not to continue with counseling, if you want to let XXX know. I do not think we need it to discuss a break, and I feel continuing would be a waste of time."
The point you made about pressure isn't wrong, just not necessary. Restating that you already made what you want clear, again, isn't wrong, just not necessary. She knows that. And the last line about respecting feeling done, again, isn't necessary. That is something that you show her, not tell her.
Otherwise, I love the latest update.
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall on that MC meeting my W went to alone that I declined.
She hasn’t said a peep to me since she’s got back.
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall on that MC meeting my W went to alone that I declined.
She hasn’t said a peep to me since she’s got back.
What purpose would that serve?
It’s highly likely that even if you knew exactly what was said, the answer to save your marriage wouldn’t be there. It’s not like she would have said “If only he did xyz I’d be with him” and then you could go do xyz and live happily ever after.
It just doesn’t work that way 🤷♂️
And chances are, if you did xyz, she would say “he’s only doing xyz because he thinks I want to hear it.” Or “it’s too late now”. Or “what I really need is xyz plus abc.” There is no quick solution or lightbulb moment to get a WAS/WS re-engage. They will continue to move the goalposts.
Being there or not being there, thinking about what she said or didn’t say, what the counsellor said or didn’t say, and why she’s gone quiet since the appointment - all you’re doing is pissing in the wind. Get a life activities for YOU should be your highest priority. Let her simmer on the stove.
She’s on a path and she has to walk it on her own. Nothing you hear, know, see, say or do is likely to change anything (other than to push her further away).
You need to continue to seek detachment. I think if I was a fly on the wall at my Ex’s therapy or counselling sessions, the thing I’d be most interested in would be the colour and texture of the paint I was standing on 🤣
br4nd0n,
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall on that MC meeting my W went to alone that I declined.
She hasn’t said a peep to me since she’s got back.
Kind18 said it well above. Easier said than done, but your time is much better spent focusing on making yourself a better man than what she said or didn't say in counseling. Most likely it wouldn't be what you wanted to hear anyway. I remember checking our joint calendar and phone records to find comfort in the fact my then-W was going to her IC session, assuming the counselor would be advising her not to walk away from her marriage to the father of her two very young children. No clue what they did talk about, but even if the counselor did recommend that she didn't listen. They're going to do whatever they want to do regardless of what a counselor, or their family member, or their friends recommend. They'll seek out the advice that validates their decision based on feelings and disregard the advise and people who challenge their views. Your best approach is to block all that out and work on yourself.
They're going to do whatever they want to do regardless of what a counselor, or their family member, or their friends recommend. They'll seek out the advice that validates their decision based on feelings and disregard the advice and people who challenge their views.
This is so true, got a friend who still blames a handful of people for his EW’s abrupt departure and his BD happened 5 years prior to mine. I leaned on him for support at first in my situation but came to realize that his narrative and bitterness was holding me back.
Br4nd0n,
At this time no outside influences are going to change her feelings about you or your relationship. I know how much we want it to. My own EW shunned our S22 when he met with her and begged her to get counseling. He told her she was mentally unstable. That was the last time he’s spoken to her in person (2 years ago).
Listen to the vets, get your emotions in check and GAL like a madman.
Taz
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall on that MC meeting my W went to alone that I declined.
She hasn’t said a peep to me since she’s got back.
Remember, focus off of her and onto yourself. I know it is human nature to wonder these kinds of things but likely she was much more frank about her desire to leave the marriage to the MC without you being there. In other words, as that fly on the wall you would have rather been smashed with a swatter than to hear what she had to say.
You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.
So I don’t know what was actually discussed in that MC session without me obviously that she went alone.
I know she came back real quiet and didn’t talk to me after.
What I do know is that she “felt worse after going”.
When asked by her friend if it was helpful, she said “yes and no” but that she is “depressed”.
My guess is that session, especially with me finally declining to go, has made her feel worse about how she has treated me these past couple months. She has told me before that she thinks she is being selfish and my guess is that is still weighing on her.
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your daughter, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.
Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.
If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.
UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.
So I don’t know what was actually discussed in that MC session without me obviously that she went alone.
I know she came back real quiet and didn’t talk to me after.
What I do know is that she “felt worse after going”.
When asked by her friend if it was helpful, she said “yes and no” but that she is “depressed”.
My guess is that session, especially with me finally declining to go, has made her feel worse about how she has treated me these past couple months. She has told me before that she thinks she is being selfish and my guess is that is still weighing on her.
Maybe the counselor challenged her on path and that didn't sit well. I remember in one of the three MC sessions we had then-W said she had a disagreement with her IC and a tough session. I didn't know details but thought "great...maybe IC is telling her she should work on the marriage, especially with two very young children". But that was speculation and mind reading and didn't really serve me. As we said above, none of that really matters. She is going to take the path she's going to take and you can't control it. Do your best to focus your efforts on yourself.
So I don’t know what was actually discussed in that MC session without me obviously that she went alone.
I know she came back real quiet and didn’t talk to me after.
What I do know is that she “felt worse after going”.
When asked by her friend if it was helpful, she said “yes and no” but that she is “depressed”.
My guess is that session, especially with me finally declining to go, has made her feel worse about how she has treated me these past couple months. She has told me before that she thinks she is being selfish and my guess is that is still weighing on her.
Ifs buts maybes..............
None of that helps. Maybe they discussed the state of the world? That's always a depressing discussion.
Nothing she may have discussed, or she may be feeling, matters to what you should be doing and focusing on.
br4nd0n, I've been following along and I agree with the previous posters. It's hard to stop thinking about how your W may be thinking or feeling about things, but ultimately it doesn't matter. The things she says and does will not be rational and your brain will try to rationalize it. I wish I could get back the time I spent the past few months analyzing my wife's thoughts, feelings, reactions, whereabouts, etc. and do literally anything else with that time. I still analyze some things I shouldn't, but I've learned that most of that time was wasted and had zero impact on my situation other than negatively affecting my own mood/behavior. It also has led to me making mistakes that pushed her further away, such as getting in conversations I shouldn't have, snooping on the computer and checking if she was actually at a friend's house and not lying to me. All of these situations occurred because I was focused on my W instead of myself. It's difficult and will improve with time, but the quicker you can shift your attention toward yourself, the better you will feel.
Me: "I just wanted to let you know I've decided not go to the counseling session tomorrow if you want to let XXX know. We don't need another meeting to discuss a break. I feel like counseling has just been more pressure for you. I feel I already have made what I want very clear these past few months and there just isn't a reason for us to go any longer for now. I want to respect what you said about feeling done with the relationship."
While this isn't bad. It is still too many words. I would suggest:
"I've decided not to continue with counseling, if you want to let XXX know. I do not think we need it to discuss a break, and I feel continuing would be a waste of time."
I agree. The action was good, too many words.
One thing I have learned:
Use the least amount of words to get the point across.
The less words, the more of an impact.
Like Steve said, this is more art than science. Self edit your self as much as possible.
If I said anything, it would be this:
H: "I've decided not to continue with counseling".
W:"Why?"
H: "I have something more important to do"
W: "What?"
Really think hard about when and how to answer the "What?" question. Apply everything you have learned since BD.
Me: "I just wanted to let you know I've decided not go to the counseling session tomorrow if you want to let XXX know. We don't need another meeting to discuss a break. I feel like counseling has just been more pressure for you. I feel I already have made what I want very clear these past few months and there just isn't a reason for us to go any longer for now. I want to respect what you said about feeling done with the relationship."
While this isn't bad. It is still too many words. I would suggest:
"I've decided not to continue with counseling, if you want to let XXX know. I do not think we need it to discuss a break, and I feel continuing would be a waste of time."
I agree. The action was good, too many words.
One thing I have learned:
Use the least amount of words to get the point across.
The less words, the more of an impact.
Like Steve said, this is more art than science. Self edit your self as much as possible.
If I said anything, it would be this:
H: "I've decided not to continue with counseling".
W:"Why?"
H: "I have something more important to do"
W: "What?"
Really think hard about when and how to answer the "What?" question. Apply everything you have learned since BD.
ouch.
there's detachment, and then there's that statement ^^^
I think something like:
H: I've decided not to continue with the counseling - can you please let xxx know?
W: Why?
H: I don't think its the best use of my time.
"- can you please let xxx know? "
This would be perfectly okay IF their R is in a good place.
Don't ask (TELL) her to do anything. Be a big boy and call XXX yourself. Don't tell W that you did this. STFU is the rule. You are no longer a team.
As far as "I have something more important"...whatever it is...watching paint dry... SHE DOESN'T WANT TO WORK ON THE MARRIAGE.....you are agreeing with her. You hear her..you are supporting her decision. Again, this is not what you say to someone when the R is in a good place.
I appreciate the feedback on how I should have communicated to her that I wasn't going to the MC meeting yesterday. But that is done at this point. What I said is how it went and she went on her own.
I think LH19 and BL42 probably have it most right here on why she felt worse after attending the counseling alone, why she went silent since she got home, and why she told her friend she is depressed.
I think it's possible that he told her his observation of me in our sessions. I mean I'm the type of person that probably 8-10 years ago would have never agreed to go to MC. When the BD happened in September and I realized things were at Defcon5/Crisis-mode, I not only agreed but I went into those sessions fully participating, vulnerable, emotional at times, and just well prepared. We had several sessions where I had spent a lot of time ahead of time writing down exactly where I thought we were at so we optimized the most time in those sessions. But as I've mentioned in other posts, we we're dealing with someone barely a willing participant on her side.
Or like BL42 said, he may have challenged her on her path.
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.
If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
This really hit home for me. Not long ago before I started detaching, she said this:
"....Relationships can not work out between two good people who want the best for each other. I'm struggling with wanting to be there for you when I'm the one causing the stress with my feelings and decisions. .....It's hard because our relationship state is causing you this pain and it's an impossible situation. Because I feel like the only thing I can do to make you feel better is to sacrifice how I'm feeling and turn it into another cycle of resentment.
I get that none of this matters and doesn't change what I need to do and focus on me.
I appreciate the feedback on how I should have communicated to her
For each interaction in the future, there will be two extremes. Finding the right point between the extremes is what matters. Most of us are programed to behave in a predictable way. We don't even know the extremes. Leaning new ways is part of the growth. That way in the future, we can make better choices in the way we interact.
"- can you please let xxx know? "
This would be perfectly okay IF their R is in a good place.
Don't ask (TELL) her to do anything. Be a big boy and call XXX yourself. Don't tell W that you did this. STFU is the rule. You are no longer a team.
As far as "I have something more important"...whatever it is...watching paint dry... SHE DOESN'T WANT TO WORK ON THE MARRIAGE.....you are agreeing with her. You hear her..you are supporting her decision. Again, this is not what you say to someone when the R is in a good place.
I have something more important = being an @$$hole about it.
The point is you want to behave in a way that makes her think she's a fool for letting you leave. That comment would make me think I'm right to walk away.
There are other ways to make that line in the sand which would make her regret her choices, not celebrate them.
I am not sure saying "I have something more important to do" is being a rearhole. To me it projected high value. "We are wasting our time on MC, so I have found something more important to me to do."
The problem with trying to not be a jerk in every facet is that no matter what you do or don't do the WAS will not like it, think you are being a jerk, and at a minimum accuse of being one anyway. So trying to filter everything you say and do through a jerk filter is a waste of time.
This is especially true with husbands. Female attraction follows closely behind respect. They have to respect you first, then they can be attracted to you. Being firm, being a bit vague, leaving some mystery and intrigue is paramount to not being a jerk. In fact, most LBHs default way too far to being too nice, not being a jerk. So swinging a little the other direction isn't going to hurt them.
You realize I'm a woman, right? It's always so fascinating to me when you guys start telling us women about what female attraction is or isn't.
LH is back so I'll leave this side of the board to him.
You realize I'm a woman, right? It's always so fascinating to me when you guys start telling us women about what female attraction is or isn't.
I am very glad you are posting and hope to keep reading your POV to the newbies. We don't need an echo chamber of just men to men.
thx R2C. way to DB
Please start a new thread and link to it.