Living with WAW 3

[DW17]

Here's a link to the previous thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938720&page=10

[DW17]

Well not much of an update from yesterday. IC went well. He also advised me to speak with an L asap. We talked about my concerns/fears with divorce. He recommended that I be the one to file unless I fear being the one to officially terminate the marriage. He thinks the court would be more likely to lean toward the recommendations of the filer. I'm not sure that makes sense but I will talk with L about it. I don't really care about being the one to file for D, but I'd rather let things play out while being prepared for anything.

I was expecting a crazy night when I got home from IC, but nothing happened. W didn’t mention anything about the D papers, the computer, or me going to IC with her. She tried starting dinner as I got back from IC, but I told her it was my week per our agreement. She said that’s dumb but whatever, and left me to it. While I made dinner she started cleaning, which is abnormal for her these days. She was trying to have fun with D4, dancing, singing, was going to give her a bath/paint her nails etc. She lasted halfway through dinner before going downstairs. I bathed D4, tried my best to paint her nails, read her a book and put her to bed.

This morning W said she's been trying to stay away from me by hiding downstairs but knows she needs to be a parent again. She was also venting about D18 being rude to her and not helping around the house. I just listened and tried to STFU, other than validating a few of the things she said about D18. Maybe she realized or was told she needs to get her sh!t together to avoid her 6 month parenting absence from being used against her in a custody situation. I’ll just focus on my time with D4.

I’m trying to commit to not doing anything stupid this week and learning from my missteps. I’m scheduling an appt with L, visiting my sister tonight, movie this weekend with D18 and trying to fit some time with friends in there. I’ve got all day with D4 on Friday so I’ll plan a fun day. I’ll keep running this week to prep for my Thanksgiving run and keep reading. I’m reading a book that was recommended to me called “This is how your marriage ends.” Another interesting read so far. The info is 20 years too late, but it will help me in the future.

Thanks again for the advice yesterday. I am documenting my time with D4, but I did skip a few weeks. The L’s that I spoke with previously said it wouldn’t have any bearing, but I’ll keep doing it anyway. It’s helpful for me to write things down. It was a crazy couple of days, but I made it through with my emotions mostly intact. Hopefully the rest of the week goes well for me.

[Ready2Change]

I was expecting a crazy night when I got home from IC, but nothing happened.

Preparing for the worst makes dealing with everything else easy.

She tried starting dinner as I got back from IC, but I told her it was my week per our agreement.

Did you come to an agreement with her on this? I was under the impression that you just made the proposal? Did she respond with a yes?

[DW17]

R2C, yes in her email reply she said she'd "respect my wishes on setting boundaries, making dinner and finances." She just said she wasn't leaving the house. I took her response as accepting what I proposed, so we'll see.

[LH19]

Remind me again what you boundaries are.

[DnJ]

Hello DW

I was expecting a crazy night when I got home from IC, but nothing happened.

Do work to keep your expectations dialled down. Unmet positive expectations lead to resentment. And negative expectations, even those that do not come about, cause stress and worry.

Expectations color one’s world. Folks unwittingly behave differently when expecting something negative or resentful which causes/influences a self fulfilling prophecy type scenario.

Instead of expectations, what about hope, or act as if, or the affect of your positive influence. Could you hope to come home to a calm household? I suspect how you’d enter through the doorway would be different when not expecting crazy.

Do plan for the worst, hope for better, and deal with what is before you.

D

[DonH]

Remind me again what you boundaries are.

Boundaries are for cattle.

[DW17]

LH19 that's what was weird about her response. I didn't really set any boundaries, but she’s used that word at various times and I’m not sure what exactly she is referring to. I don’t think she does either.

As mentioned by a few of you guys, my "boundary" of not living with someone involved with another person was not a true boundary because the "action" part was me telling her to leave instead of an action I would take. So she predictably just replied that she wasn't leaving.

The only actual boundary mentioned was that I would only communicate about the kids or finances. My action is that I will not answer a phone call and will only respond to a text if it is about one of those things. My email was worded poorly, but this is a boundary that I communicated with W previously, just without the action part. The way I worded it makes it sound like it was her boundary, but I was referring to her telling me to stay away from her when she was angry a few days ago.

As far as the dinner/groceries, wasn’t really intended to be a boundary. It was just me telling her that I want to share the responsibilities.

Unfortunately the word boundary has been used incorrectly by myself and W, which is probably causing some confusion for both of us as well as you guys. At the end of her email, W said she’ll email me more about boundaries after IC tomorrow. She’s been using the term incorrectly the same way I had been using it, basically as a set of rules we agree to. i.e. her thinking that living together and moving on with our lives with other people was a boundary that I set early on when I really just told her I was not in control of her choices. A firm correct boundary here would have been nice in hindsight.

I know it’s not my job to educate her on what I’m learning about boundaries, but I do need to make sure if I mention them at all that they are true boundaries with actions that I will take if they are violated.

[DW17]

DnJ, I appreciate that insight. I do feel it affected my mood at first. Not really in a negative way, but it prevented me from being as positive as I try to be each day. Basically, I was stuck in neutral for about an hour while making dinner until I realized everything was fine. But I agree, coming in the door with positivity, without overdoing it, is a lot better than worrying about things that may or may not happen.

[DonH]

LH19 that's what was weird about her response. I didn't really set any boundaries, but she’s used that word at various times and I’m not sure what exactly she is referring to. I don’t think she does either.

That’s what I’m trying to say! It’s just another contemporary buzz term. Like triggered or micro-aggression, or self care and all the other nonsense. She’s just throwing out terms that she likely heard but can’t define because the definitions are often nebulous.

Boundaries really do only hold back cattle. The rest of us go under, over, around or through the “boundary” unless there is a consequence in place.

[DW17]

DonH,

I think that's the point everyone has been trying to teach me. The boundaries are for me. If she does something that violates ia boundary i.e. going under, over, around, I take an action. Without that action, she'll do whatever she wants, like staying in the house. So for my communication boundary, she can keep calling or texting about whatever she wants, but I will not respond to it.

As far as her "boundaries", or any that I've previously tried to set that weren't really boundaries, I'm not sure what I do with them at this point. Can't really just erase them and start over. I do see a ton of value with them if applied correctly at the beginning and enforced consistently. And I've only really set one, so maybe I just kind of ignore anything else I've said since they are irrelevant at this point. If she violates them, she violates them. I should have had actions. And if she calls something a boundary, I'll just consider it a request. Putting the toothpaste back in the tube is a little difficult at this point.

[DW17]

LH19, one more boundary that I set early on for myself was that if I knew about a PA, I would file for D. That was not communicated with W, nor do I intend to. I have no clue how I'd ever find out, and I'd imagine if I did it would come out after D anyway, but if I were to find out before that I would enforce it.

[DW17]

Consequences are interesting. Consequences are not you doling out punishment. They arise from actions taken from boundary violations. They are not to, and cannot be used to, control her or change her. You only control you. She controls herself. However, you can influence.

Boundaries are a tool for someone to protect themselves from very hurtful behaviour. They are for your emotional/mental health and not a modification/punishment mechanism. When one is calm and not within the hurtful situation, they craft their boundary. And decide what they will do to enforce it. “What they will do” - the actions they will take; not what the other person is to do (that is trying to control).

Usually, a boundary would/should be clearly stated as a going forward from this point type a thing. Boundaries are not to be made lightly. And expect your boundaries and resolve to be tested.

Disrespectful behaviour is definitely boundary worthy. Added benefit, it clearly illustrates when disrespect happens. Most folks will alter their behaviour when they realize they are doing it. (The influence part.) Of course, some won’t.

People will treat you as you allow them to.

I really liked this explanation of boundaries from DnJ a week ago. Of course I sent a stupid email without really implementing this knowledge right after it, but I will refer to this and other helpful info I've gotten prior to setting any more boundaries.

[LH19]

D,

I think for now you should just drop the entire notion of boundaries until you get a better understanding of them. I think you know you should have boundaries but don't have a good grasp on what they should be or what to do when broken. If you keep reading, learning and moving forward you will naturally start to understand what types of behavior should never be tolerated.

[DW17]

LH19, you're probably right.

Out of curiosity I just checked to see if the book I've been waiting on was ready and it just became available today. It's the book R2C recommended called "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud.

[LH19]

That's good keep reading.

What is holding you back is fear. So I will ask you right now. What are you afraid of that you can't implement and enforce healthy boundaries?

[Traveler]

Without that action, she'll do whatever she wants..

You do seem confused by boundaries! Repeat: "Boundaries control me, not her." It still sounds like you're looking at boundaries as a way to control her actions instead of a way to assert mastery over yourself and protect yourself from harm. I manage people and I put a lot of boundaries around how our customers may interact with them. I don't control whether a customer behaves well (like most) or behaves badly (like some). I just control how much access they have to my team. They will treat my team with respect or they will not have access to their services.

Possible boundaries:
"If she lays a hand on me, I will call the police and report it."
"If she cheats on me, I will file for divorce a.s.a.p."
"If she calls me names, I will hang up."

Not Boundaries:
"She won't get away with calling me names, and iff she cheats on me, she's sleeping on the street!"

Hopefully the book R2C recommended will help you make sense of boundaries. (:

[DW17]

LH19, I guess I have to think about that one. I don't feel like I have any fears that prevent healthy boundaries. I was previously afraid of upsetting her or doing anything that could lead to divorce. I don't believe those fears are still there.

I guess I'm not exactly sure what other things would require boundaries. There haven't been loud arguments. The discussions we have had where one of us started raising our voice, the other one called it out and it was corrected. Name calling has not been an issue. No physical altercations. Physical harm would result in a 911 call for sure. Yelling would lead to me hanging up the phone as well. If W starts an argument or starts talking about D around the kids, I will leave the area or hang up the phone. So yes, those are boundaries I have, I just haven't had to use them.

The cheating is a little more complicated I guess. I'm not sure why I won't file for D for an EA/likely PA, but I will for a known PA. Maybe that's the fear you are talking about.

I'll keep trying to educate myself and gain a better understanding of boundaries.

[DW17]

W just sent me a message asking when I'm going to go over the D paperwork. I have a few options here:

1. Ignore the message
2. Just tell her I will review it
3. Tell her that she needs to fill out the rest and then I will review it.

I'm leaning 2 as it was the advice given here previously. I'll meet with L before I say anything about it to W.

[Traveler]

This is a direct question about a business matter--so simply tell her when? No need to introduce drama by ignoring her. Telling her what she NEEDS to do would be controlling behavior.

"I'm reviewing them now; I'll respond within 1-2 weeks."

[DW17]

She asked if I'm getting a lawyer. I wanted to keep it to myself for a bit longer. Guess I gotta say yes now?

[DW17]

Or do I give a vague reply like "I'm trying to process all of this and figure out all of my options."

[Traveler]

What would be consistent with this boundary you set?

The only actual boundary mentioned was that I would only communicate about the kids or finances. My action is that I will not answer a phone call and will only respond to a text if it is about one of those things.

[DW17]

To ignore her.

I guess I was a bit confused because the previous message she sent asking when I was going to review the paperwork was considered a direct question about a business matter. I guess her asking if I'm getting a lawyer would not be considered a direct question about a business matter. Thanks Traveler.

[DnJ]

Hello DW

Like Traveller said, “I’m looking over the documents and will get back to you in a couple of weeks”.

As for being questioned if you are seeking a lawyer. It never does any good do outright lie. I’m sure she realizes how foolhardy it would be to divorce without legal counsel. In my locale without legal representation - unless the divorce is really cut and dried, like 50/50, both make the same money, etc - the courts won’t accept it and will send it back looking for more information. Both sides need to have their own lawyer to petition their divorce to the court.

Also, you will be negotiating. Lying will not be a gain for you in that endeavour.

Being vague might buy you some time. But to what end? Eventually she will learn you have a L. She will then need to get one (which she probably already will have done before all that). And she will likely see it as some breach of trust.

Be upfront and say “Yes, I am going to talk to a lawyer and I suggest you do the same”.

If she pushes and asks why. “Divorce is a complicated and unfamiliar process to me. Lawyers do this for a living, I don’t.”

D

[DW17]

Thanks DnJ. To my knowledge W has no intention of getting a L, has no way to pay for it that I know of, and I believe her intent, as she has said a few times to me is to copy her friend's recent D and work through things together. Her friend and her ex just paid a lawyer $750 to make sure everything was square before filing. I would have no issue with that except I know we won't agree on anything and I would rather sell our house prior to D.

W wants to D, then live together until D18 leaves next Aug/Sep for college. None of that makes sense to me. Then I guess sell the house at that point? I haven't heard of anyone else doing that. If she wants a D, then just leave.

I do see what you're saying about being upfront about it. Custody of my daughter and whatever spousal support/child support I'd be paying is way more important to me than any lawyer fees and
it's weird that W apparently doesn't think so. Or maybe she's just hoping I'll agree to a terrible plan, the same way I was hoping she'd suggest one.

[DW17]

She says she has a right to know so she is not blindsided and has time to prepare.

Traveler would tell me to ignore it, as I set a boundary.

DnJ would say to be upfront and let her know.

I haven't spoken to the L yet other than the initial consultation, so if I do respond, I could say I do not have one at this time and would like to avoid it....

I don't know. I hate this.

[LH19]

Thanks DnJ. To my knowledge W has no intention of getting a L, has no way to pay for it that I know of, and I believe her intent, as she has said a few times to me is to copy her friend's recent D and work through things together.

You very well may be responsible for her lawyer fees.

Her friend and her ex just paid a lawyer $750 to make sure everything was square before filing.

Sounds like she has a smart friend.

I would have no issue with that except I know we won't agree on anything and I would rather sell our house prior to D.

How do you know? Not much to agree on unless you are talking about personal property.

W wants to D, then live together until D18 leaves next Aug/Sep for college.

Why doesn't she stay with mom until then?

None of that makes sense to me.

Why?

Then I guess sell the house at that point?

Do you want to keep the house?

I haven't heard of anyone else doing that. If she wants a D, then just leave.

I lived with my ex for 15 months after she filed.

I do see what you're saying about being upfront about it. Custody of my daughter and whatever spousal support/child support I'd be paying is way more important to me than any lawyer fees and it's weird that W apparently doesn't think so.

Well it's all a calculation you should be able to figure out yourselves.

Or maybe she's just hoping I'll agree to a terrible plan, the same way I was hoping she'd suggest one.

Oh I am sure you will be tested at some point.

[BL42]

DW17,

She asked if I'm getting a lawyer. I wanted to keep it to myself for a bit longer. Guess I gotta say yes now?

This sounds to me like you're struggling a bit in the "nice guy" role and feeling a need to be fully honest and transparent with your W. Remember...she is NOT the W you've known and NOT the person you thought she was. She is lying to you and gaslighting you. It's now a hostile business negotiation, not a caring husband and wife working together doing the best for your family situation. Avoid your natural instinct to be the dutiful H jumping in to take care of her.

I differ with DNJ here. Personally I would not tell her you're consulting an L. Don't outright lie to her face, but also no need to show your cards either IMO. What about responding with "I'd prefer to handle this between us." But...be sure to review any proposal with an L before responding. Better your responses are informed by legal advice and hers are not.

To be honest, your sitch sounds like it's probably heading towards both of you lawyering up anyway...but might as well try to avoid her getting one.

[LH19]

She says she has a right to know so she is not blindsided and has time to prepare.

Tell her dumba$$ that since she is filing you would be responding to the filing and she wouldn't be blindsided.

There is value to trying to keep it civil until you have a settlement.

[Traveler]

Whatever you choose, BREATHE! Don't let her pressure you into hasty words or actions.

[DW17]

How do you know? Not much to agree on unless you are talking about personal property.

I guess that’s true. The only real debate will be over the parenting plan. Everything else is pretty much calculated for us from what I understand. Not much negotiation.

Why doesn't she stay with mom until then?.

I think my wording may have been misleading. W wants to have all of us stay together in the same house, even after D, until our daughter goes to college. IHS is weird enough to me while we’re married. It makes even less sense to me after D. If you don’t want to be with me, and have options of places to stay, even if slightly inconvenient, then just leave. Don’t stick around for another 10 months pretending we’re friends.

Do you want to keep the house?.

I want to but see no feasible way to buy her out of the mortgage. It gained too much equity the past couple of years. I called the bank to get refi costs. That doesn’t work at all. L mentioned trying to get a HELOC, but said after child/spousal support and paying bills on one income, I’d probably have nothing left over. I just accepted that D would mean selling the house. I will revisit my options and see if something works, but yes, I would like to keep the house if at all possible. My mortgage payment is less than small apartments in the area right now. New home prices are so crazy that taking the equity and buying a new home would both increase my mortgage and put me in a small starter home again. I guess that’s the reality of D.

I lived with my ex for 15 months after she filed.

Did you live together after it was finalized?

[Mach1]

There is a middle ground with that.....

Something like....

This is a huge step in my life, and isn't something that I am prepared to rush through. I haven't made the decision to just consult, or hire a lawyer to protect myself. I will make that decision after I have time to process and review your petition.

Then STFU about it....

[DW17]

BL42, I think I like that approach. I'll think it over a little bit more though.

[DnJ]

She says she has a right to know so she is not blindsided and has time to prepare.

She’d like to know. She doesn’t have a right to know.

I haven't spoken to the L yet other than the initial consultation, so if I do respond, I could say I do not have one at this time and would like to avoid it....

I don't know. I hate this.

Fear is entangling. Fear is paralyzing. Fear’s tentacles run deep. Fear is about what might happen.

I do not think you’d like to avoid seeing a lawyer. You’d like to avoid this situation and what might happen. And that is fear. Utilizing a lawyer will provide guidance and answers which removes many of those possible outcome and does plenty to assuage one’s fear.

If W is feeling guilty, she may be inclined to offer a better settlement. Lots of folks do. Having her pursue that through a lawyer is best. Her offer is much more ironclad that way. If you send a terrible lopsided in you favour settlement in to the courts without both having legal counsel it is very likely to get rejected. And that puts you and W months further along, months in which she will have grown less guilty.

Remember this is a business deal gone sideways. Treat it as such. And that is about the best boundary there is.

D

[LH19]

Don’t stick around for another 10 months pretending we’re friends.

I don't think she is pretending. I think she wants to be friends with you.

Did you live together after it was finalized?

Yes for about 3 months until she moved into her new house.

[DW17]

You're correct DnJ, I do not want to avoid having an L. I just want to avoid her knowing I'm getting guidance from one. I think it would be stupid not to utilize a lawyer, unless W and I negotiate terms that I feel are favorable to me. This is the biggest decision I’ll make in my life.

I think W’s friend who wanted out of her marriage and negotiated without a L may have gotten the short end of the stick in her D. I haven’t spoken to her ex since their D last year since she was still good friends with my W (had to pick a side basically), but I may reach out to him now with some questions.

I decided on responding with a simple "I would prefer to handle this between us if possible." It's not a lie, as I would like to handle things between us...if I get a favorable result.

W responded "Okay, just making sure."

[DW17]

It's not a lie, as I would like to handle things between us...if I get a favorable result.

In hindsight, I guess it is a lie if I'm consulting with a L and she is unaware. Oh well.

[BL42]

DW17,

I haven't spoken to the L yet other than the initial consultation, so if I do respond, I could say I do not have one at this time and would like to avoid it....

I don't know. I hate this.

Fear is entangling. Fear is paralyzing. Fear’s tentacles run deep. Fear is about what might happen.

I do not think you’d like to avoid seeing a lawyer. You’d like to avoid this situation and what might happen. And that is fear. Utilizing a lawyer will provide guidance and answers which removes many of those possible outcome and does plenty to assuage one’s fear.

I sensed the fear in your "I don't know. I hate this." comment. I empathize with you here as I definitely went through the same feelings...not knowing "exactly the right way" to respond for the best outcome. It's better if you're able to let go and realize the precise words or tactics aren't necessarily change the ultimate outcome. Try not to get paralyzed by the specifics and instead let go of control and release your fears and accept the journey. You will be alright no matter what.

If W is feeling guilty, she may be inclined to offer a better settlement. Lots of folks do.

My L advised the same thing - that the best offer usually comes early while the guilt is strong and better any bitterness over negotiations builds. A lot of times the LBS is not ready for this speed and struggles to let go, preventing a better "business" outcome. DnJ perhaps got the quickest / best "business" outcome in the history of divorce...so he speaks from experience.

I decided on responding with a simple "I would prefer to handle this between us if possible." It's not a lie, as I would like to handle things between us...if I get a favorable result.

W responded "Okay, just making sure."

Good approach IMO. Also, notice how your fears on this from just a short while disappeared with her response - it wasn't as bad as you worried it might be.

[DnJ]

It's not a lie, as I would like to handle things between us...if I get a favorable result.

In hindsight, I guess it is a lie if I'm consulting with a L and she is unaware. Oh well.

Don’t sweat it.

You’re doing fine.

I like how you replied to W. Well done.

[DnJ]

DnJ perhaps got the quickest / best "business" outcome in the history of divorce...

LOL!

[DW17]

BL42, you're right. I struggle with trying to make sure I say the "right" thing. I don't like making mistakes and I feel I've made several recently. Yesterday I told myself to pause and think about what, if anything, I say in response to W. So I spend 4 hours debating the 20 total words I sent her today. Funny to think about it that way.

And this morning she was stringing me along by telling D4 how handsome I looked and asking her if I should be a model lol. I didn't say anything, but it's nice knowing that she'll be missing out on a much improved person inside and out.

I appreciate the help everyone.

[Ready2Change]

I decided on responding with a simple "I would prefer to handle this between us if possible."

W responded "Okay, just making sure."

I like your response as well.

I also like the fact that you came to us BEFORE you responded.



Obviously you will have disagreements. One option to help resolve them is to mutually agree on a mediator before you attempt any negotiations with her. You can lead her through this as well.


My lawyers used this pattern:

One party identifies 3 mediators that they find acceptable and supplies the names and contacts to the other party. The other party reviews and picks one. If they do not like any of them, they find 3 different ones and the first party picks one, or redemands a few other alternatives.


I love this:

This is a huge step in my life, and isn't something that I am prepared to rush through.

After I have had time to process, I will respond with my decision.

keep it in you back pocket.

[DonH]

In my locale without legal representation - unless the divorce is really cut and dried, like 50/50, both make the same money, etc - the courts won’t accept it and will send it back looking for more information. Both sides need to have their own lawyer to petition their divorce to the court.

Are you sure about this? Or perhaps I should ask, do you live in the United States? I don't think the US Constitution would allow for someone to be forced to obtain legal council. I mean, that's pretty much like saying, if you don't pay to hire a legal professional you cannot get divorced. How could that be? Again, maybe you don't live in the USA and then I could more understand it.

As for it being "foolhardy" to D without an attorney - again it really depends. These boards are ripe with stories where all paying 5 figures to the attorney did is lower the amount of any settlement. They often end up with the same deal they would have received with a lawyer. But, again, it really depends. If there are children, large assets or non-typical assets like a business or worse yet a business partnership. You may need and benefit from representation. It also depends on how good of a negotiator you are. How good of a business person you are. My ExW filed on her own and I represented myself on my own. I am very happy with the outcome and I think I was fair to her.

I always suggest at least trying to do this on your own - again unless there are custody battles, etc.

[DnJ]

Hi Don

I live in Canada. In my province, from what my L told me, without both sides having representation whatever agreement reached would likely require follow up and/or appearance before the judge. It is technically doable sans lawyers, although quite a minefield.

My agreement for example would never have been signed off by the judge without our lawyers and her L’s extra paperwork/waiver ensuring W knew what she was doing and was in his opinion capable of legal decision making.

Just my info from my locale.

D

[DonH]

It’s not much different in my and many states in the USA. Of course laws vary by state and even by county within a state. My ex and I both still had to show up in court. We still had to appear in front of a judge. In fact he put us both on the stand and took testimony from each of us asking some of those questions that you note. He specifically asked if we each understand we are waiving spousal support that we might be entitled to, etc. but it was very much doable and we both saved thousands of dollars and both were happy with the outcome - at least I was.

Of course an attorney is going to tell you that you are better off hiring them. Duh, they want the work. They all say that. They all say they can get you a better result. I’ve used an attorney like a half dozen times - mostly for business. Every single time they appeared all confident they would achieve the result I was after. Without fail I got nothing more than I would have without them. I’m not saying never to get an attorney but most times it’s not worth the $$$. Again, I’m pretty savvy about all of this and have been told so by many attorneys so it does depend on who you are. But with nearly any dispute, getting the parties to agree will put everyone farther ahead. I’ve yet to get the result the attorney all but promised I would get.

[Traveler]

Like Don, I live in the USA. In our first settlement, my XW and I used Nolo Press books, standard boilerplate documents, and I consulted a few times with an attorney. I got primary custody and pay no child support or alimony. I understand that's good for a dad. The court didn't bat an eye. They just required us to sign a waiver indicating we knew support guidelines.

It helps that I'm in business and good at negotiating. It helps also that, whatever else was broken in our marriage, my XW still trusts me to act with integrity.

[Kind18]

DNJ is absolutely right.

It is normal to respond through fear. That’s what you’ve been doing probably for many years in your relationship, so it’s normal that you are doing that now.

I empathise as well, because I was in the exact same situation. I’d become accustomed to being beaten into submission, when I had to respond or make a choice I was paralysed with fear.

Every time you get an email, a text, or need to respond to her - notice how your body feels. Instant butterflies in the stomach, increased heart rate, increased respiration, and inability to think about anything else.

These aren’t healthy responses. They’re driven by the amygdala, the reptilian, primal part of your brain that controls flight or fight.

Part of DBing is looking at how how you’ve acted in the past (being weak, scared, and responding through fear) and realising that it’s led you to divorce, so it’s probably not something to keep doing. Try something different, because what you’ve been trying for the last few years hasn’t worked. Have you ever seen the Seinfeld episode called “The Opposite”?

It’s a tough pattern to break. You’re actually doing DB incredibly well for a newbie. But this is something you need to work on.

One thing my brother said which really helped me with this was “Remember, most likely no matter how you respond, she’ll be pissed off. You’re worrying so much about it, but in reality a WW who desperately wants out - you can’t predict how they will react anyway.”

He was dead right.

You spent four hours thinking about what to say…. In five years, do you think your life will be greatly different if you’d responded by saying A, B or C?

If she asked me if I’m getting a lawyer, I’d have said “I haven’t even had time to read it yet. I’m going out for beers tonight!”

As for whether you’re lying or not lying if you don’t tell her - not your problem. I get that you want to be honourable, but she’s a lying cheat who is most likely banging another man behind your back. You owe her nothing, and in fact you owe it to your children to get the best deal possible for their Dad.

Remember, at this point your “marriage” is a business deal gone bad and you’re trying to minimise your $$$ losses. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ready2Change]

Part of DBing is looking at how how you’ve acted in the past (being weak, scared, and responding through fear) and realising that it’s led you to divorce, so it’s probably not something to keep doing. Try something different, because what you’ve been trying for the last few years hasn’t worked.

Well said.

If she asked me if I’m getting a lawyer, I’d have said “I haven’t even had time to read it yet. I’m going out for beers tonight!”

This is a great response. It is the attitude that you should be embracing.....

[DW17]

Today I finally looked over the paperwork. A lot of things are not complete. No financial info, no description of who gets what, she didn’t fill out her portion of the child support worksheet, she checked that she needs spousal support, but did not select whether the court will decide or the dollar amount she is requesting, the parenting plan does not work for me, and several minor mistakes. She hasn’t said it, but I think her plan is for us to sit down and work through it together. I told her I’d respond in 1-2 weeks. I have a few people I’d like to get advice from and I have to speak with the L still, but it seems like she is attempting to get me to do the leg work with this, which I’ve been told not to do. She spent a total of about an hour on it. I spent more time than that today looking into things. I’ve got some time to decide how I want to respond to her, but I wasn’t served these papers, and they aren’t complete. Should I just give her the applicable financial information and let her complete it? Should I just accept the situation and get on with it? She wants a divorce, I don’t as of yet, but I don’t get to control that.

One option to help resolve them is to mutually agree on a mediator before you attempt any negotiations with her. You can lead her through this as well.

This is what I would like to do. I believe W just wants to talk things out, and I think most things will work that way, but I’d prefer a mediator for the custody issues. I don’t want to get into an argument about it and I’d rather a third party be there for this.

Every time you get an email, a text, or need to respond to her - notice how your body feels. Instant butterflies in the stomach, increased heart rate, increased respiration, and inability to think about anything else.

Yup, you’re spot on here. I think this is why I struggle the few times we do get in conversations about important things. I end up saying things I don’t want to say, or saying things I don’t remember. W doesn’t forget anything.

Remember, most likely no matter how you respond, she’ll be pissed off. You’re worrying so much about it, but in reality a WW who desperately wants out - you can’t predict how they will react anyway.

I’ll try to keep this mindset. If I have to respond, do it with confidence at least, even if my response is not perfect.

I’ve got a 3 day weekend. I’ve got a few things lined up. I’ll try and keep busy and focus on being positive and confident. I can only control what I can control and I’ll be fine no matter the result.

[Kind18]

Personally, I think it sounds like she’s desperate to get out quickly so she can legitimise her affair.

That could seriously work for you to get a great custody and finance deal.

I would take it to your lawyer, and get them to help you draft what you want. Custody, finance, alimony, child support - the whole works - tipped heavily in your favour, but not so much so that a judge would throw it out. You need to have every minor detail locked away so she can’t come back at you in the future.

But then go to her, tell her you are happy to talk about it, and tell her what you want. If you go to mediation or take your lawyer along, it’s less likely you’ll get a good deal.

And be prepared to negotiate. If you’re stuck on one minor thing (like $5-10k, or Christmas Day kids arrangements)… remember that if you can’t strike and agreement and it goes to lawyers and court, everyone loses. A $10k extra offer at the end (essentially a bribe that looks attractive to a cheat who wants short term cash to spend with affair partner) that gets the deal over the line is a fraction of what it would cost if you can’t agree between yourselves.

Yup, you’re spot on here. I think this is why I struggle the few times we do get in conversations about important things. I end up saying things I don’t want to say, or saying things I don’t remember. W doesn’t forget anything.

You know how you can avoid saying something you regret? Don’t engage! We’ve been saying it for a while. “I haven’t thought about that yet. I’m off to watch a baseball game. We got great seats!” And then walk out the house in new clothes, with great aftershave, with a huge smile on your face.

I think you should do some reading about and practising of mindfulness. The primal fight or flight part of your brain has far too much control over your behaviour atm, as it does with most LBS. Get to work on moving what you say/think/do being controlled by the frontal cortex, the measured, common sense, higher level part of the human brain.

Unless you’re being chased by a bear in the woods, the amygdala driven behaviour/words/fear is generally very destructive.

And book a holiday. So next time she says about going on a holiday as friends you can say “sorry, but I’ve already booked in a road trip with the guys!”

[Traveler]

we did agree on several months ago was that we are going to live here until D18 graduates as if we are separated and we could move on with our lives with other people if we choose. It was a clear boundary that YOU set and we agreed on.

You still have control over my mind and I am going to trauma therapy to fix that and going to join some support groups to help me get through the hell I have been living the majority of my life. I give my love 100% in every relationship I have and you chose to not take it for years, even when I begged for you to go to therapy with me.

She wants a divorce, I don’t as of yet, but I don’t get to control that.

She wants what she wrote above. It sounds like she would prefer divorce now but is negotiable on when divorce happens. What does DW17 want? The ship has sailed on being a happy couple anytime soon and she loves someone else. Q1 - Do you want to D now while she's somewhat motivated, Q2 - Do you want to live with STBXW/D18 until D18 graduates?

Be intentional. If you want to divorce, act now while she's motivated and likely to agree to more. Consult with an attorney about what you would get in court. Draft a proposal. Consider her dream divorce terms. She wants to live together until D18 graduates. She'd prefer a divorce now. Consider a proposal where you offer both and 40% less spousal and 20% less child support than is customary. The alternative is to do nothing and she gets her dream and you get no value from it. I guess as a guy earning at least 50% more than my ex and not paying child or spousal support I got a killing in my divorce relative to the average person here. As in business, offer what matters to them and charge for it.

If you will continue living together for D18's sake, consider IC for you to accept she's moved on for now, and consider MC for co-parenting (not reconciliation). Animosity while living under the same roof is not in the best interests of D18, nor of the D4 you're going to be co-parenting together for the next couple of decades. Do what you can to improve your interactions.

[Mach1]

Today I finally looked over the paperwork. A lot of things are not complete. No financial info, no description of who gets what, she didn’t fill out her portion of the child support worksheet, she checked that she needs spousal support, but did not select whether the court will decide or the dollar amount she is requesting, the parenting plan does not work for me, and several minor mistakes. She hasn’t said it, but I think her plan is for us to sit down and work through it together. I told her I’d respond in 1-2 weeks. I have a few people I’d like to get advice from and I have to speak with the L still, but it seems like she is attempting to get me to do the leg work with this, which I’ve been told not to do. She spent a total of about an hour on it. I spent more time than that today looking into things. I’ve got some time to decide how I want to respond to her, but I wasn’t served these papers, and they aren’t complete. Should I just give her the applicable financial information and let her complete it? Should I just accept the situation and get on with it? She wants a divorce, I don’t as of yet, but I don’t get to control that.

This isn't something that you want is it ??

I would assume that it isn't...

If it isn't, then why are you willing to work toward it ?



Like the others have said, this is a business transaction as of now.... and what will become a series of negotiations.


Not something that you want to do, something that you have to do. So why work so hard for it...



All you have to do is ....


Item 1 - no

Item 2 -yes

Item 3 - yes

Item 4 - no

And so on....


She wants this so bad, let her do the work for it....

That way you aren't trying to control anything, you are just saying what is acceptable for you.


I would also advise you to make 3 lists....

Things that you won't budge on...

Things that you are willing to negotiate a little on...

And things that you are willing to give away....


When in question, you can refer to your list without hesitation during the emotional part of mediations.....

All of your decisions should be made with the rational part of your brain now...



You want to "act" rather than "RE-act"..

[Ready2Change]

“I haven’t thought about that yet. I’m off to watch a baseball game. We got great seats!” And then walk out the house in new clothes, with great aftershave, with a huge smile on your face.

How many times have you done this? It should be at least 12 times by now. Especially the new clothes, with great aftershave, with a huge smile on your face. You should be out shopping for new clothes at least once a week. New style. Dress your age.

[BL42]

What's going on DW? How was your 3-day weekend?

[DW17]

It's been a few days since I posted. I usually post from work but was busy yesterday and didn't go today (D4 is sick). I'll add more when I get a chance, but the weekend was busy and interesting. I went to a movie with D18 and S19, went to a bday party with friends which was a lot of fun, took D4 to a trampoline park, took the doug on a long walk with the girls, ran 7 miles outside to prep for my 10k and overall had a great weekend.

I had a good talk with my sister that helped my mindset moving forward. She said, as you guys have also, that I need to figure out of I want D or not and of I do then proceed with it. If I don't then I need to make sure my actions reflect that (no more mistakes, validating, empathy, and flush OM and what W is up to out of my brain for the time being). She said if I'm not sure yet, then proceed as if I want to stay together so I don't mess up the opportunity. This is all stuff you guys have told me, but hearing it in person from my sister helped. My mindset has been improved I think for the past several days.

W was spinning most of the weekend. She skipped with yesterday due to anxiety. I think she get up with AP Friday night, Sunday and Monday. Friday was her night out/come home the next morning routine, Sunday she went to a beach about 45 minutes away without the kids and Sunday she supposedly went on a hike. I didn't ask anything, didn't react and for some reason didn't really get mad. I just kind of let it go. I slept well all weekend too.

She was as angry as I've seen her a few days ago, but I could tell she was just grasping for something to be mad about. I reacted well to it, even as she said she applied four an apartment and won't be paying bills anymore if she gets it. I just smiled as she walked downstairs. I'll elaborate tomorrow from work tomorrow.

I contacted a L and have a bunch of paperwork to send to him. I'm a little nervous about it. Haven't paid the retainer yet and I probably won't have everything to him until Saturday.

W's cousin who lives a few hours away is picking her up for a bday weekend away from here. It's W's bday Thursday. So I have that kids and house all weekend. I'm assuming W is going out Friday and her cousin picks her up Saturday. Sunday I'm taking D4 and D18 to a family gathering. So another busy week ahead while I still contemplate exactly what I want from this. It's tough. There's a lot to give up if we D and I don't think I'm quote there yet. So I'll try and move forward as if I want to stay together, and I'll adjust if needed.

I hope everyone else had a great weekend, especially any veterans out there.

[DnJ]

Hello DW

I contacted a L and have a bunch of paperwork to send to him. I'm a little nervous about it. Haven't paid the retainer yet and I probably won't have everything to him until Saturday.

Good for you.

This is just gathering information, you don’t need to act on it. And information is power. I suspect your nervousness will abate some once you get more answers.

I had a good talk with my sister that helped my mindset moving forward. She said, as you guys have also, that I need to figure out of I want D or not and of I do then proceed with it. If I don't then I need to make sure my actions reflect that (no more mistakes, validating, empathy, and flush OM and what W is up to out of my brain for the time being). She said if I'm not sure yet, then proceed as if I want to stay together so I don't mess up the opportunity. This is all stuff you guys have told me, but hearing it in person from my sister helped. My mindset has been improved I think for the past several days.

Good.

Remember not taking action, not forcing things, is doing something.

Moving forward is about one’s mindset. And we all require a certain amount of understanding and knowledge before we can/will let go. I’d say you are gaining some good insight and clarity, and talking with your L will surely enhance that. I’d keep on the path, IMHO.

I altered this a bit:

So I'll try and move forward, as if I want to stay together, and I'll adjust if needed.

Do, or do not. There is no try.

Going at something with a try attitude is different than a do attitude. Try, equally allows a succeed or fail outcome. Do, predicts a success outcome; that’s the expected outcome. Yes, we can fail at things we do. However, we “do” things we control, so just dust off and do again.

It’s a little wording change, with huge internal influence. Your mind is always listening. Crafting and creating what you ask it to. Speak/think well.

I didn't ask anything, didn't react and for some reason didn't really get mad. I just kind of let it go. I slept well all weekend too.

There is much peace from indifference. One let’s go, and becomes indifferent. It’s a strange landscape. Other feelings will appear and loom much larger in contrast against the void of emotions that were once so prevalent. Ensure you do not make hasty emotional decisions in this temporary landscape. Indifferent will, and does, unwind. Feelings do return. Thankfully with far less associated pain. (For those who do the inner work.)

The time of indifference is an excellent opportunity to discover one’s core self. With the emotional noise muted, one is free to delve into themselves and find their convictions and beliefs. These tenets are slow to change and make excellent headings for life’s journey and choices. Strengthen values that serve, craft that which you aspire to, and discard or alter those that do not serve.


We all start out standing. We stand for our marriage and our spouse. It’s the default position. Especially when we are so hurt.

Standing really starts once one is healed enough to stand down.

Find your convictions. No hasty choices.

Stand for you.

D

[DW17]

Just re-read my last post, or at least tried to. Sorry for all the typos, I was messaging from my phone.

This is just gathering information, you don’t need to act on it. And information is power. I suspect your nervousness will abate some once you get more answers

My nervousness stems from a few things. In order to get the info I want from the L, I have to pay the retainer fee. This is something I can't really hide from W. I got a separate card to put it on, but I feel like one way or another she'll find out. And we both said we'd try and do this without them. So it feels like something I can't hide if I do it. I don't know. I'm just having reservations about it, especially since I haven't responded to W about the D papers. She will have to be the one to push that issue forward though. She wants to D, I don't at this time, I will not take that guilt off her shoulders by moving it forward.

To elaborate on W's weekend, Friday night I told her that I was going to my aunt's house Sunday for a little get together. W said I could not take D4 because she does not want her around my family, except for my sister. She said D4 will not have people in and out of her life and she needs to be protected. I previously did not understand where W was coming from with this, but I'm pretty sure it stems from her childhood of neglect, bouncing from house to house and not feeling loved. My family has not been around much for the 4 years we've had D4. I did not do a good enough job of maintaining relationships with them, and neither did they. Birthdays, Christmas, and even our adoption day have not always been acknowledged by them for D4. I explained that my relationships with them are something I have struggled with in the past and I understand that I have to confront them about the things that I have concerns with rather than avoiding conflict, especially if it involves my family. W was still upset, and even said she wouldn't sign a parenting plan if it didn't say that D4 couldn't be around them (What? lol). Then Monday night she said after thinking about it, it was okay if I took D4 there as long as I kept her safe. I validated her concerns about my family and their intermittent relationships with us and said I would protect D4 from that.

Since Monday, things have been pretty good. D4 has been sick the past 2 days, so I've been at home with her. I think W taking a mental health day Monday helped her out, as I could tell she was not in a good state of mind. W commented this morning that I've been in a good mood this week and joked that she never knows what mood I will be in each day. I know this is because of my struggle with understanding detachment, not knowing what to ignore, what to respond to, etc. She was correct that one day I'd ignore her and then I'd be friendly. I feel I have a little better understanding right now. I am not responding to calls and only texts about the kids/business stuff. She has tried calling a few times the past few days. At home I do not initiate interaction, but don't completely ignore it either. She asked about getting matching Xmas pajamas soon (a tradition we usually do). We'll see how the rest of the week goes. I'm trying to stay positive and focus on myself and the kids.

The unknown of the D paperwork s@cks. W jokingly mentioned it this morning by saying she hopes that I sign them for her bday. Then she apologized for being mean. Speaking of which, her bday is tomorrow. I'm not sure how to handle that exactly. My bday last month, she stopped by the bar I was at with friends for an awkward 30 minutes or so. That was the entirety of her involvement. No happy bday, no gifts, but the thing that hurt was that she didn't even come upstairs when the kids were doing the cake. I'm not getting a gift, but it feels pretty petty to not even say happy bday. Maybe I'll just leave it at that, and she can figure out whatever she wants regarding cake/kids/etc. D18 has a soccer banquet tomorrow night anyway, but I'm just curious how others have handled these situations.

[DnJ]

My nervousness stems from a few things. In order to get the info I want from the L, I have to pay the retainer fee.

Shop around. Plenty of lawyers offer a free consultation. Or just hire one for an hour and see what your rights are. Have you financial info ready and just go see.

This is something I can't really hide from W. I got a separate card to put it on, but I feel like one way or another she'll find out.

Pay cash. It’s quiet. No paper trail.

I got a separate card to put it on, but I feel like one way or another she'll find out. And we both said we'd try and do this without them. So it feels like something I can't hide if I do it. I don't know. I'm just having reservations about it, especially since I haven't responded to W about the D papers.

The unknown of the D paperwork s@cks. W jokingly mentioned it this morning by saying she hopes that I sign them for her bday. Then she apologized for being mean.

You are worried about her finding out, and she is making light of a pending divorce by hoping you’ll sign as a birthday present. And from the scattered and disorganized settlement she proposed, yes I guess she’d be happy if you signed. (Don’t sign! BTW )

Do your thing and seek legal counsel. Let the chips fall where they do.

I’m pretty sure your L will shake his head at her proposal.

She will have to be the one to push that issue forward though. She wants to D, I don't at this time, I will not take that guilt off her shoulders by moving it forward.

Good. Let her do the heavy lifting. You don’t block anything, and you don’t overly facilitate anything either.

Just gather your information and be ready if/when you need it.

D

[LH19]

W jokingly mentioned it this morning by saying she hopes that I sign them for her bday.

What a %$#*! Some day you will look back and wonder what you were thinking being with this woman. You deserve better! D her and get on with your life.

[Ready2Change]

I have to pay the retainer fee.

I would be very careful with paying a retainer fee. I would visit at least 3 more lawyers with free consults. You should be able to pay with cash for 1 hour consults after that.

You can also go to your local court and watch some D proceedings. You can see lawyers in action and listen.

[Mach1]

I have to pay the retainer fee.

I would be very careful with paying a retainer fee. I would visit at least 3 more lawyers with free consults. You should be able to pay with cash for 1 hour consults after that.

You can also go to your local court and watch some D proceedings. You can see lawyers in action and listen.

Ayep...

In addition to...

If you consult, she won't be able to use them against you....

For now though, I'm still not sure why you are doing the legwork for something that you do not want....


Puzzling....

[Ready2Change]

If you consult, she won't be able to use them against you....

That's not playing fair....

I should have said "the TOP 3 Divorce lawyers in your area"

All fair in love and war.

This is protecting yourself.

[Ready2Change]

For now though, I'm still not sure why you are doing the legwork for something that you do not want....

Puzzling....

I believe he is educating and protecting himself by speaking with lawyers.

At some point, he will need to be clear to her that the paperwork is not completed and that he will review her final draft when she is done.

[job]

I agree with DNJ, do not sign anything without a lawyer looking at the information. When they are sitting on the fence and hoping that you'll take the reins and do the heavy lifting, they will ask for the moon. They just don't care if you have to be on the street corner with a tin cup just as long as they get everything they ask for. They think that the divorce decree is the answer to "freedom". They think the grass is greener on the other side, but it's not. Happiness comes from within and not from external "stuff".

We are a "divorce busting" forum and we do not advocate divorcing right out the gate. We try to work with the posters and help guide them through the process of separation and the ups and downs you will face along the way. We are here to listen and offer advice and sometimes posters have questions on how to navigate a divorce, i.e., as to what to do and not do. Ultimately, it is your decision as to whether you want to move forward and do the paperwork yourself, but seriously, if she wants the divorce, then she should be the one to do the work.

I would sit back, gather your information and be prepared if and when the time comes and you need to move forward. Start looking around for a good lawyer, one that will not be in a rush to the court house to file papers. That lawyer will need to work for you are the one that will tell him/her what you want to do...do not allow him/her to push you into something you are not ready to do. Gather information and then think about what you want to do.

No matter what happens, we are here to support you throughout your journey and we want you to know that you will be okay. Try to look at the situation as a business deal and make decisions with your brain and not your heart. Keep the focus on you and your family and live your life to the fullest the best you can at the moment.

[LH19]

So even MWD says in her book not all marriages are meant to be saved. This is one of them. Your w has had multiple affairs, stays out all night after going to the bars and mocks and manipulates you. She is not a good person and you deserve so much better. If she wants out now and gives you a good deal take it. The heavy lifting BS just delays the process. Your objective is to get away from her as soon as possible. If and its a very big if she gets her $hit together you can revisit it in the future. 3 years from now I promise you that you will wonder why you didn’t do it sooner.

[Kind18]

I agree with LH19. “Don’t do the legwork” can sometimes be bad advice.

Perhaps it stems from people who believe since the WAS or WS are the ones leaving, they should be punished by forcing them to do all the hard work and making it a marathon. But sometimes, it’s damaging to the LBS if things are dragged out.

What I do agree with, is don’t rush to divorce if you aren’t sure it’s appropriate. And don’t rush to it to teach them a lesson, or force their hand to decide either way.

But in a relationship like this, I’d encourage you to think about getting it done. I think, deep down, you know that this person is bad for you and the chances of having a happy, healthy relationship in the future are very slim. Would you perpetuate/extend your grief and pain by 1,2,3 or 5 years on a 5% chance (that’s generous) you might be able to make it work? I certainly wouldn’t! And as others say, if it’s meant to be, they’ll come back. Get the divorce done, protect your finances, draw a line in the sand and start again… if in 3 years they fall to their knees, admit some responsibility and beg for your forgiveness - well there’s nothing stopping you from re-marrying.

In some jurisdictions, divorce has advantages. In Australia, once 12 months have passed since the divorce decree was made final, they can’t apply for spousal maintenance (similar to alimony). If you’re just separated but not divorced, even if you have finance and custody orders in place, they can come after you at any time. Imagine her living with AP for five years, then she gets dumped, and suddenly hits you with more $$ claims.

Divorcing can put a line in the sand which protects you into the future.

It will also make you feel better. For me, an unexpected BD due to an affair and then mega court battle for finance and children (plus losing my job due COVID) made me feel like my life was spiralling completely out of my control. Filing for divorce was me saying aloud that I was no longer going to be treated like that, that I was drawing a line in the sand for our finances - and for the first time, I felt like I was gaining back a bit of control over my life.

Another good benefit was that I no longer had to hide her behaviour and choices from friends/family. It definitely was the catalyst that started my transition from Mr Nice Guy Syndrome to being a strong, independent man who knew what he was worth.

Also, these people are often desperate to disappear off with AP as soon as possible, and with a minimum of fuss. Sometimes, in such desperation to get out, they’ll take a cra**y deal. Drag it out a year or two, and you might find they’ll want to take more and more.

Was I 100% sure it was the right thing to do at the time? Definitely not. I don’t think any LBS would ever make the decision to file for divorce with 100% conviction. I was probably 80% sure by then that it was never go to work out, and despite the pressure of trying to keep the family together for my kids, 80% was more than enough.

Do I regret it? No way. I’d have done it sooner, except the law didn’t allow me to file until we’d been separated 12 months.

None of us can tell you what to do. Every situation is unique. I certainly wouldn’t encourage someone who isn’t ready to file for divorce. But you also need to look at it from the reverse sense… the fights, the arguments, the lies, the manipulation, the cheating, the sex with AP boundary… exactly what would be enough for you to say this can not be reconciled and my best future is without this person?

[Mach1]

So even MWD says in her book not all marriages are meant to be saved. This is one of them. Your w has had multiple affairs, stays out all night after going to the bars and mocks and manipulates you. She is not a good person and you deserve so much better. If she wants out now and gives you a good deal take it. The heavy lifting BS just delays the process. Your objective is to get away from her as soon as possible. If and its a very big if she gets her $hit together you can revisit it in the future. 3 years from now I promise you that you will wonder why you didn’t do it sooner.

Yep, she does say that...

Sadly though, you don't get to make that choice for him....

I'm pretty sure that he typed into Google, " How to save my Marriage"

Not..." How to be Divorced and bitter..."

Truth is, even though every Marriage isn't meant to be saved, every Marriage deserves it's best shot before letting some random guy, who doesn't know both sides of the story make that call for it...


Just remember that you are posting on a Pro-Marriage forum LH..

DW's situation might very well end up at that point, and I support it either way it goes....

As long as it's his choice....

[LH19]

So even MWD says in her book not all marriages are meant to be saved. This is one of them. Your w has had multiple affairs, stays out all night after going to the bars and mocks and manipulates you. She is not a good person and you deserve so much better. If she wants out now and gives you a good deal take it. The heavy lifting BS just delays the process. Your objective is to get away from her as soon as possible. If and its a very big if she gets her $hit together you can revisit it in the future. 3 years from now I promise you that you will wonder why you didn’t do it sooner.

Yep, she does say that...

Sadly though, you don't get to make that choice for him....

I'm pretty sure that he typed into Google, " How to save my Marriage"

Not..." How to be Divorced and bitter..."

Truth is, even though every Marriage isn't meant to be saved, every Marriage deserves it's best shot before letting some random guy, who doesn't know both sides of the story make that call for it...


Just remember that you are posting on a Pro-Marriage forum LH..

DW's situation might very well end up at that point, and I support it either way it goes....

As long as it's his choice....

Of course its his decision just like a spider chooses to spin a web........

What IMO tends to be a disservice is advice to drag this misery out longer than it has to.......

I am Pro-marriage when two people respect one another

I think you need need to check yourself Mach1 and stay on your side of the street bro........

[DW17]

I appreciate all of the input here. I have spent the better part of the past week thinking of what exactly I want to do right now. There are a lot of variables at play, but I did decide that I want to fight to save my marriage. I know that there are a lot of things I cannot control. My wife may decide next week that she's going to complete the paperwork and file for D. I am comfortable with that. I know some people get D and then get back together, but based on the chaos D will create for my household, I don't believe that is not an option in my situation. So basically it's all or nothing in my mind, and I'm not ready to throw it away just yet. I am in no rush and I do not think potential pros (moving on quicker, better deal in D, etc) are things that I value right now.

One of my biggest concerns with D is that it will be a financial disaster based on things I have mentioned before (We have no option to keep our house, the house/rent/interest costs are so high we will both be living in places comparable to our first apartment when we were 19, we have 5 pets, I will have to pay spousal support for around 5 years and child support for 14, before school childcare when I have D4, etc.) I have checked with the online support calculators and it will be rough making that work in my location. I know I would still be able to get through it one way or another if I had to, but it is still a huge factor.

It may sound like financial concerns are the only reason that I don't want to go through with a D. It is not. My W has been a crazy, unpredictable roller coaster ride the past several months. But I know that she was not and likely will not always be this way. A similar situation happened before and she was able to pull herself back to normalcy eventually. It was a much shorter turnaround time than this time, but her sh!tty friend group, her AP, her crazy behaviors vanished for over a decade before they came back again this year. And I do understand my role in causing those things to creep back in. I am not at fault for her infidelity, that's on her. And she absolutely had a part in us getting to this point. But I also now understand my role in preventing a poor relationship, which is something I have not understood for the entirety of our R. If by some miracle we are able to make things work, I am confident that I've learned enough to avoid going through this again. If not, at least I have some tools to move forward with someone else.

I've spoken about her childhood trauma a little bit, and the therapist she's been seeing the past few weeks has been focusing on that trauma. Sounds like they believe she has trauma from our relationship as well, but that's another conversation. W doesn't talk to me about any specifics, but I truly believe her trauma has at least equal weight with this situation as my failures as a husband. And I believe I owe it to my family to let the therapy portion play out a little longer. As I said, I am not in a rush. When I take a step back and think about her actions, they don't seem to line up with someone who wants to throw everything away right now. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, maybe she's conflicted, maybe she's waiting for a better opportunity, I don't know. She could have moved out months ago when we had money saved up and she didn't. I'm pretty sure she could have moved in with AP, especially when I told her to leave. She didn't. Is it to spare herself the shame/guilt of moving on right away and being the one to end everything? I don't know. Many of her behaviors seem typical for all WW's, so maybe that is standard, I don't know. What I do know is that I am willing to wait things out at this time. Maybe that changes in a month, maybe not. I'll just take it a day at a time and see how it plays out.

exactly what would be enough for you to say this can not be reconciled and my best future is without this person?

I will spend time thinking about this question. I truly care about the vows I made when we got married. If my W wants a D, she knows what she has to do. I will obviously not wait forever, but at the beginning I gave myself 1 year. Right now it hasn't even been 6 months. Right now I don't know if my best future is with or without my wife. I've read here that many times the WW does not come back the same person, so maybe that question cannot be answered at this time. But while I work through that decision, I will focus on the things I've learned here, keep reading books (including DR again), re-read my threads as well as others, get a better grasp of boundaries and validation, keep setting personal goals, spend as much time as I can with the kids, and GAL as much as possible. If that is still not enough, I know I'll feel much better knowing that I did what I could.

Again, thank you all for providing your perspectives and advice. Even when it's conflicting, it is very helpful. It's tough leaning on friends/family for these situations because of the potential ramifications. Having opinions from people who have been through similar situations as I'm going through that do not affect my relationships with friends/family is a gift that I truly appreciate.

[Ready2Change]

I'm pretty sure that he typed into Google, " How to save my Marriage"

When I type that in, I didn't find it in the top 50 hits. Same when I typed "divorce". Not much SEO for this site.

[DW17]

Lol, I don't even remember what led me to this site. I read DR and obviously Googled something that led me here. Regardless, I'm glad I found it.

[Mach1]

Again, thank you all for providing your perspectives and advice. Even when it's conflicting, it is very helpful. It's tough leaning on friends/family for these situations because of the potential ramifications. Having opinions from people who have been through similar situations as I'm going through that do not affect my relationships with friends/family is a gift that I truly appreciate.

Even as emotionally raw as you are right now...

There is a passion for you to find peace...whatever that looks like for you.

Same with us posters...

Everyone posting to you wants the absolute best for you, and sometimes that leads to differences of opinions, and different ways of addressing things...

What works for one, will not, and should not work for another considering how differing we all are.

Every situation is entirely unique, yet so eerily similar....

We become overly passionate about our advice. And leads to things like what you read this morning.

It's all opinion as nobody here is a professional ...

We offer what we've seen, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad....

The beauty in it, is that good or bad, it's all experience in something that the poster isn't adept at....

I respect LH's opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Because he earned his opinion the hard way, the same as everyone here posting to you.

Whatever choices that you make, just be sure that you aren't making an emotional decision, and that you have zero regrets down the road. That you feel that you did everything that you could do to save your marriage.

I want that for you....

[bttrfly]

I'm late to the game DW, but I want to share with you something which was invaluable to me during the early days. Our divorce mediator, who was a marital mediator, advised me to take as much time as I needed ... my timeline not my husband's or anyone else's ... take all the time I needed to get really clear about what I wanted. He stated with the authority of experience that if I figured out what I wanted then the rest would fall into place.

He was not wrong.

Take what makes sense to you and leave the rest.

[LH19]

DW I am like the big brother in DB land and get really angry when when I read about the lack of respect these WS give to people they have been with for sometimes decades. Wanting a D is one thing but making jokes about it really aggravates me. Stay the course and make decisions that are best for you.

I just want to comment on one thing you wrote above. There are no guarantees she snaps out of it and goes back to her "normal" self. These behaviors sometimes are more of who they really are and will be moving forward.

I respect LH's opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Because he earned his opinion the hard way, the same as everyone here posting to you.

I respect your opinion too Mach. It's all good in the hood I let my emotions get the better of me.

[DW17]

Nothing new to report. Everything has basically been at a stand still. Haven't heard anything about the D papers, nothing about the apartment she supposedly applied for, nothing at all. The weekend went well. I got to spend a ton of time with the kids and with family. We weren't really home all weekend between activities and family time. W was pretty much gone from Fri night until Sun afternoon. Her older cousin stole her for bday stuff for most of the weekend.

I'm going solo to Thanksgiving with my family this year, which will be interesting. Not really looking forward to missing this day with the kids, but it is what it is. W has been very friendly the past several days. I'm still keeping my distance. W is buying matching Xmas outfits for this Friday. One of our traditions is to cut our Xmas tree and hang out all day decorating for Xmas on the day after Thanksgiving. It didn't seem right to stop doing that for several reasons all involving the kids, so we're continuing with it this year.

I did have some thoughts yesterday morning that took a few hours to shake. I'm reading DR again and I was reading the chapter on infidelity. I started thinking about the email W sent me about how we agreed to a separation and that I said she was free to make her own choices. I'm not sure what part of DR triggered these thoughts, but I started questioning things. I know W is using this to justify her actions. She believes that we are separated right now and can do whatever we want. I am forced to accept a separation I don't want and try and decide what I will or won't accept while we go through this. If she honestly believes we are no longer together, does it still constitute infidelity? And what impact does that have on anything that I'm doing? I'm not sure it makes a difference either way. It doesn't change the betrayal, hurt, affect on the family or actions that I should be taking. I think it was more just me trying to view things from her perspective. I shook those thoughts and went on with my day and had a lot of fun.

Today I took the day off to watch the World Cup game with D18 and some of her soccer team. I have IC later also. I originally told W that I'd get back to her about the D papers in 1-2 weeks. That time would be this week. I doesn't feel right to ignore it since I told W when I would respond to them, but I'm not sure exactly how I plan to approach the situation. I think I will basically tell her what I've said previously. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I still do not wish to D, but I won't stand in her way. If there are documents that she needs that she cannot access, I will provide those, but I will not be filling anything out for her. I'll discuss this with my IC also, but not sure how much help he will be.

Another random side note, D18 was on W's laptop that she was guarding like Ft. Knox until a few days ago and my email was open on it. She doesn't have the password so I think it is either linked to me signing in somewhere else, or I didn't log out of the email app, which I don't think I even used on that computer. I'm not sure. The only thing I wouldn't have wanted her to see were some payment and general information forms the L sent last week in my junk mail. I'll change the password again and get a new email address for any future things like this, but I am curious if she saw it. She didn't say anything and I haven't said anything either.

[DnJ]

Hi DW

When using a device that is not your sole use and under your control, it’s a good idea to always clear the browser cache and of course log out.

I agree you should respond regarding her paperwork; you keeping your word. How about, I looked it over and there is a lot of missing information.

Leave it at that. No need to tell her again that you don’t want to D. No looking up information for her. Let your actions speak. If she asks something directly, deal with that. By the way, sometimes the answer can be no.

When my W was crafting the separation agreement, she would stop by and pick up things. Shop around the house and gather this and that and take it with her to OM’s house. I actually use the words that you cannot use the house like a store and stop by to shop. You cannot take marital assets without a record. Someone else’s words and wise counsel as I was basically a walking zombie. Anyhow, that was her last shopping trip.

D

[LH19]

So DW your brain is hard wired to protect you and get you to your safe place. It will try to get you to rationalize that your W isn’t cheating so you can safely let her back and get things “back to normal”. Understand what is happening and try to use your logical side of the brain as much as possible

FYI I would have plans for Friday.

[BL42]

DW17,

W is buying matching Xmas outfits for this Friday. One of our traditions is to cut our Xmas tree and hang out all day decorating for Xmas on the day after Thanksgiving. It didn't seem right to stop doing that for several reasons all involving the kids, so we're continuing with it this year.

So odd how they live in two worlds. My ExW signed us up for family events with our friends well after BD, cooking Sunday dinner w/my parents, and doing yardwork and gardening the week before she moved out.

If you can handle it and want to keep the tradition with your kids than go for it, but in the more likely case you're lying to yourself and really playing along to keep the peace and hope the "normalness" of it wakes her up and fixes things you should steel your resolve that these type of things don't typically make a difference in the DB'ing. Not let something like this draw you in only to disappoint and hurt you. I guess I'm saying make sure you temper your expectations here. I may be with LH about being busy instead. You have to decide for yourself but I definitely look back at things I did to play along and have one last hike with the family as shortsighted now.

I know W is using this to justify her actions.

Ding, ding, ding!

She believes that we are separated right now and can do whatever we want.

She is MARRIED! I'm willing to bet you two didn't write a "...until we decide to separate" clause into the vows.

If she honestly believes we are no longer together, does it still constitute infidelity?

Yes! See above. Don't allow yourself to buy into her major pile of BS.

Today I took the day off to watch the World Cup game with D18 and some of her soccer team.

Same here! And well done. Making memories with your daughter. We had about 10 kids and their parents for pizza and the game. Disappointing result considering the US dominated the first half and had a late lead. Someone called it a draw that felt like a loss. We had fun though, especially the kids...so that's what mattered.

I have IC later also.

Good. How'd it go?

I doesn't feel right to ignore it since I told W when I would respond to them, but I'm not sure exactly how I plan to approach the situation.

Ok, Mr Nice Guy. I wouldn't lose too much sleep about something "not feeling right". She's cheating on you and divorcing you...do what's best for you.

I think I will basically tell her what I've said previously. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I still do not wish to D, but I won't stand in her way. If there are documents that she needs that she cannot access, I will provide those, but I will not be filling anything out for her.

Fewer words. You don't need to tell her all that. Actions > words.

Another random side note, D18 was on W's laptop that she was guarding like Ft. Knox until a few days ago and my email was open on it. She doesn't have the password so I think it is either linked to me signing in somewhere else, or I didn't log out of the email app, which I don't think I even used on that computer. I'm not sure. The only thing I wouldn't have wanted her to see were some payment and general information forms the L sent last week in my junk mail. I'll change the password again and get a new email address for any future things like this, but I am curious if she saw it. She didn't say anything and I haven't said anything either.

You better go through every device and every account (email, banking, social media...etc.) and log all devices and change every password. She's divorcing you and this is a hostile negotiation now. You don't need to tell her it is...but you treat it as such.

[Kind18]

DW17,

W is buying matching Xmas outfits for this Friday. One of our traditions is to cut our Xmas tree and hang out all day decorating for Xmas on the day after Thanksgiving. It didn't seem right to stop doing that for several reasons all involving the kids, so we're continuing with it this year.

So odd how they live in two worlds. My ExW signed us up for family events with our friends well after BD, cooking Sunday dinner w/my parents, and doing yardwork and gardening the week before she moved out.

If you can handle it and want to keep the tradition with your kids than go for it, but in the more likely case you're lying to yourself and really playing along to keep the peace and hope the "normalness" of it wakes her up and fixes things you should steel your resolve that these type of things don't typically make a difference in the DB'ing. Not let something like this draw you in only to disappoint and hurt you. I guess I'm saying make sure you temper your expectations here. I may be with LH about being busy instead. You have to decide for yourself but I definitely look back at things I did to play along and have one last hike with the family as shortsighted now.

I know W is using this to justify her actions.

Ding, ding, ding!

She believes that we are separated right now and can do whatever we want.

She is MARRIED! I'm willing to bet you two didn't write a "...until we decide to separate" clause into the vows.

If she honestly believes we are no longer together, does it still constitute infidelity?

Yes! See above. Don't allow yourself to buy into her major pile of BS.

Today I took the day off to watch the World Cup game with D18 and some of her soccer team.

Same here! And well done. Making memories with your daughter. We had about 10 kids and their parents for pizza and the game. Disappointing result considering the US dominated the first half and had a late lead. Someone called it a draw that felt like a loss. We had fun though, especially the kids...so that's what mattered.

I have IC later also.

Good. How'd it go?

I doesn't feel right to ignore it since I told W when I would respond to them, but I'm not sure exactly how I plan to approach the situation.

Ok, Mr Nice Guy. I wouldn't lose too much sleep about something "not feeling right". She's cheating on you and divorcing you...do what's best for you.

I think I will basically tell her what I've said previously. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I still do not wish to D, but I won't stand in her way. If there are documents that she needs that she cannot access, I will provide those, but I will not be filling anything out for her.

Fewer words. You don't need to tell her all that. Actions > words.

Another random side note, D18 was on W's laptop that she was guarding like Ft. Knox until a few days ago and my email was open on it. She doesn't have the password so I think it is either linked to me signing in somewhere else, or I didn't log out of the email app, which I don't think I even used on that computer. I'm not sure. The only thing I wouldn't have wanted her to see were some payment and general information forms the L sent last week in my junk mail. I'll change the password again and get a new email address for any future things like this, but I am curious if she saw it. She didn't say anything and I haven't said anything either.

You better go through every device and every account (email, banking, social media...etc.) and log all devices and change every password. She's divorcing you and this is a hostile negotiation now. You don't need to tell her it is...but you treat it as such.

As usual, BL42 is on the money with everything.

In my personal life, I tend to care what normal, trustworthy people think of me and my life. Their opinion matters to me. If someone in my life is a cheat and a liar, I spend zero of my headspace thinking about what I should do or say and how they might take it. Personally, I wouldn’t be spending any time with her. I definitely wouldn’t be wearing matchy matchy outfits for Christmas. Like, WTF? #spewemoji

You’re just teaching her it’s okay to treat you like crap. You’ll dress up like her little Christmas Elf twin, but meanwhile some other guy is probably going to be taking those clothes off her when she is at his house cheating on you.

What you’ve done for years (trying to keep her happy and not rocking the boat) HASN’T WORKED.

You know what you should do? Ignore her completely including any comments about matching outfits. Go buy some stylish, modern clothes like new chinos, a Ralph Lauren collared shirt and new dress shoes (not casual) and wear them with a great cologne. If she seems surprised or pissed and asks why you aren’t her little Christmas b*tch, don’t bite - just be super happy!

“Why won’t you wear my little b*tch costume I bought for you, it seems very rude.”

“I’m going out to meet friends later and want to look my best.”

How did IC go?

Change ALL your passwords. ASAP.

[Kind18]

<Deleted Link to Other Site.>

Dress like this for the day after Thanksgiving. Buy and wear Jean Paul Gaultier le Male.

Oh, and get a new haircut too.

Mr Nice Guy, and letting her dress you… it ain’t working for you.


(Remember, part of our user agreement for this community is to not post links to other sites. - DnJ)

[LH19]

In my personal life, I tend to care what normal, trustworthy people think of me and my life. Their opinion matters to me. If someone in my life is a cheat and a liar, I spend zero of my headspace thinking about what I should do or say and how they might take it.

This is so true. Life is too short to give anyone that treats you badly the time of day.

Personally, I wouldn’t be spending any time with her. I definitely wouldn’t be wearing matchy matchy outfits for Christmas. Like, WTF?

I agree. If you want to have one more decorating day with your children than as others stated dress to the 9s and head out afterwards.

You’re just teaching her it’s okay to treat you like crap.

This is so true and you will see it someday down the road.

You’ll dress up like her little Christmas Elf twin, but meanwhile some other guy is probably going to be taking those clothes off her when she is at his house cheating on you.

Unfortunately this is also true. Sad but true.

What you’ve done for years (trying to keep her happy and not rocking the boat) HASN’T WORKED.

DW one thing I can always guarantee is placating never works.

You know what you should do? Ignore her completely including any comments about matching outfits.

Yep.

If she seems surprised or pissed and asks why you aren’t her little Christmas b*tch, don’t bite - just be super happy!

This made me spit my coffee (thanks Kind18). Again sad but true. She is emasculating you. DO NOT LET HER.

“Why won’t you wear my little b*tch costume I bought for you, it seems very rude.”

See above.

“I’m going out to meet friends later and want to look my best.”

YES.

One last thing DW. Please under no circumstances tell her again you don't want a divorce. She knows it. Believe me she knows it and is using it against you.

[DnJ]

If she honestly believes we are no longer together, does it still constitute infidelity?

Yes. Rational, logic, reason, and definitions do not change just because someone feels or believes differently.

I think it was more just me trying to view things from her perspective.

From her perspective, she will use that as justification to be unfaithful. Yet, when one’s feelings change their justification falls apart.

Long standing beliefs are rooted in reality. Life’s feedback providing reinforcement, affirming validity of one’s convictions. Wishful beliefs take much energy to continually maintain, as the world, people, events, karma, etc, constantly chip away at a person’s self believed narrative.

The “right” path is surprisingly easy to walk. And everyone has their own “right” path. There are some universal tenets that are generally accepted as guidelines for right and wrong, like what constitutes infidelity. We all weave those into our lives and journey. And someone going counter to their foundation and principles is not that hard to see. Amazing how hard some folks try to make something they are doing to be “right”.

And what impact does that have on anything that I'm doing? I'm not sure it makes a difference either way. It doesn't change the betrayal, hurt, affect on the family or actions that I should be taking.

The impact upon you will be as it needs to be. Seeing clearly, not her BS, clearly seeing her perspective and its non logical facade lets you step aside from it. Not buy into it. Affirming you and your values.

We all need a certain amount of understanding to let go and move forward. That needed amount increases as one heals and moves forward. It’s growth. Each facet of our situation we learn more and more, and grow more and more.

Strengthen your beliefs that serve, crafting those you aspire to, and discarding those that no longer or do not serve. That will not change what has happened or has previously affected your family, however it can/will alter things going forward.

Seeing from her perspective, leads to understanding, empathy, acceptance, and forgiveness. And that is a significant impact.

D

[DW17]

Thanks guys for the input. IC was interesting. I did my basic 2 week recap, we talked about my thoughts on responding to the D papers and I told him I made the decision to stick it out and fight for my marriage. He commended me for the strength to do that, but also made it seem like I was an idiot for doing so. I told him that if it weren’t for D4, I am sure I would have ended things already, which opened up a bunch of other thoughts. I know people say that you shouldn’t stay with someone just because of your kids, but bringing D4 into my life was a choice that I made with the sole intention of providing her the best possible life. Splitting up this family in no way gives her the best possible life in my opinion. She saw a commercial about Disneyland, got excited and asked if she could go there. I was supposed to go back to CA for work this summer and take her there. There is no way I will be able to do that now, nor will I be able to travel for work anymore with split custody. I get to travel to Japan for work too and wanted to take W and D4 there one day. I won’t be able to volunteer for those trips either. It’s tough. It’s just another little thing that makes this whole situation so frustrating.

I am usually pretty diligent with my info on electronic devices. I had changed all of my passwords already. The issue was that I did not realize the email app was logged in on the computer since I never use it. I use the web browser for email. I removed the email account from the app, changed my password again, and set up a new email address. It’s obnoxious how linked things are. Hard to completely split things when everything is designed to be connected these days. We don’t have any other shared devices or linked accounts that I know of, so hopefully I’m in the clear. I try to do any “business” related things from work to avoid any accidents, but I guess I let one slip.

I decided I will be doing the Xmas tree stuff on Friday. Xmas is D18’s favorite holiday and we’ve had this tradition every year since they were little. We cut down a tree the day after Thanksgiving, decorate it and listen to Xmas music in our Xmas pajamas. I would be doing this whether W was there or not and it’s something I intend to continue in the future even without her. The kids (D is coming over also) have a lot of fun and it’s one of the memories with them that I cherish more than most. I don’t view it as a keep the peace type of thing, I view it more like W is not going to ruin this tradition that I look forward to doing with my kids.

In addition to the pajamas, we also usually all dress in nice holiday inspired clothing and take pics at the tree farm. We usually send these out on our Xmas cards. W only bought them for the little kids and asked everyone else to pick stuff out from Amazon so she could get it. She got mad yesterday that nobody picked anything out or seemed to care. I didn’t get anything, D18 hasn’t picked a shirt and S19 doesn’t really care. The pajamas are already purchased, so I’ll wear the little b*tch costume for D4 and D6.

The Xmas outfit thing got me thinking about Thanksgiving. As I’ve said, W is pretty upset that I won’t be spending it with my kids. I don’t think she actually cares about that though. I think she is upset that she can’t project normalcy if I’m not there. Yesterday she asked what I am bringing to my family’s house. I was asked to make a lemon meringue pie, which is W’s favorite. It was a little satisfying seeing her irritation that I’m bringing her favorite dessert to a different house. I will try and avoid having the holidays be “business as usual”, but a couple of things (getting the tree, the pajamas on Xmas morning) I don’t want to change this year for the kids. I imagine all other holiday things we usually do will be different. I’m trying to think of a new tradition I can do with the kids also. There’s a drive through holiday light show that we might go to and get pizza after. There's also a zoo that we've gone to a few times that has lights everywhere. That was a tradition when I was young that fizzled out as I got older. I'll keep thinking on it.

No need to tell her again that you don’t want to D

Fewer words. You don't need to tell her all that

One last thing DW. Please under no circumstances tell her again you don't want a divorce. She knows it. Believe me she knows it and is using it against you.

You guys are right. I haven’t said it other than my email response a few weeks ago, and I won’t mention it again. Thanks.

So odd how they live in two worlds

This is one of the strangest parts of all of this. My sister said when she decided she was getting D, it was over immediately. Wanted nothing to do with him, didn’t want to see him, talk to him, nothing. Other people have told me the same thing. I don’t know if it’s specific to WW’s, but it’s like she is trying to avoid any accountability that she’s ruining her family by pretending certain things are normal even though everyone can see that nothing is normal.

Wasn’t planning on writing this much, but one last thing. W posted some pictures from Saturday at the casino on Instagram that D18 showed me because several of her friends reached out asking if her mom was okay. (Some of D18’s friends follow W on there). She was flipping off the camera in one and dressed in a practically see through shirt in another and just generally looking like someone going through some sh!t. D18 was pretty much in tears from the embarrassment and asking why her mom was acting like a teenager. It was sad having to comfort her about this, but I just told her that she can’t control the image that W is projecting to the world, that she has every right to feel embarrassed by it, and that her mom will hopefully work her way through it eventually. I wish W understood the hurt she is causing.

[LH19]

I wish W understood the hurt she is causing.

She does she just doesn't care.

[DonH]

Wasn’t planning on writing this much, but one last thing. W posted some pictures from Saturday at the casino on Instagram that D18 showed me because several of her friends reached out asking if her mom was okay. (Some of D18’s friends follow W on there). She was flipping off the camera in one and dressed in a practically see through shirt in another and just generally looking like someone going through some sh!t. D18 was pretty much in tears from the embarrassment and asking why her mom was acting like a teenager. It was sad having to comfort her about this, but I just told her that she can’t control the image that W is projecting to the world, that she has every right to feel embarrassed by it, and that her mom will hopefully work her way through it eventually. I wish W understood the hurt she is causing.

Good job with D18. However why not also encourage her to tell her mom how she feels? D is an adult. Sure still maturing but she needs to express her feelings to her mom. There are consequences to our actions and W is so far escaping many of them. I’m not claiming it will change Ws behavior but it’s a great learning lesson for D to speak up for herself. Might be a good lesson for you as well.

[DnJ]

D18 was pretty much in tears from the embarrassment and asking why her mom was acting like a teenager. It was sad having to comfort her about this, but I just told her that she can’t control the image that W is projecting to the world, that she has every right to feel embarrassed by it, and that her mom will hopefully work her way through it eventually.

Nice job Dad! Well done. I’m sure D18 loved the support from you.

[Ready2Change]

She was ..dressed in a practically see through shirt .

I would find that shirt and wear it Xmas morning instead of her little b*tch costume. If it is appropriate for out in public, has to be fine in the privacy of your own home.

[BL42]

DW17,

IC was interesting. I did my basic 2 week recap, we talked about my thoughts on responding to the D papers and I told him I made the decision to stick it out and fight for my marriage. He commended me for the strength to do that, but also made it seem like I was an idiot for doing so.

Your IC made it seem like you were an idiot to stick it out and fight for your marriage? Does that strike anyone else as an odd thing for an IC to do?

I told him that if it weren’t for D4, I am sure I would have ended things already, which opened up a bunch of other thoughts. I know people say that you shouldn’t stay with someone just because of your kids, but bringing D4 into my life was a choice that I made with the sole intention of providing her the best possible life. Splitting up this family in no way gives her the best possible life in my opinion.

Working on your marriage for your kids' sake is a perfectly valid reason. Maybe the most important reason. However, just realize that unfortunately it might not ultimately be your decision - the end result is not something you can control.

She saw a commercial about Disneyland, got excited and asked if she could go there. I was supposed to go back to CA for work this summer and take her there. There is no way I will be able to do that now,

I had a trip to FL recently and floated the idea of taking the kids and my parents along to do Disney during the long weekend and then my parents flying them home while I stayed for my meetings, but it was too tough to pull off logistically. Maybe sometime soon though...

nor will I be able to travel for work anymore with split custody.

I have 50/50 custody and have traveled for work. If it comes to D try to align your business travel with your off weeks when possible and hopefully you and your Ex can be reasonable about switching time when it doesn't.

I get to travel to Japan for work too and wanted to take W and D4 there one day.

Make it happen! I know it's daunting, trust me, but you can do more as a single parent than you think.

I am usually pretty diligent with my info on electronic devices. I had changed all of my passwords already. The issue was that I did not realize the email app was logged in on the computer since I never use it.

Because the proliferation of smartphones, tablets, smartwatches...etc. some accounts/services have a "log out of all other devices" option now you might be able to leverage.

it’s something I intend to continue in the future even without her.

Good! Regardless of what happens between you and your W, you make sure to keep up the traditions with your kids.

I’m trying to think of a new tradition I can do with the kids also.

Excellent! My kids and I have already formed new traditions...S7 is already eager and asking to have my mom make "Christmas Tree pancakes" and go get our tree together.

W posted some pictures from Saturday at the casino on Instagram that D18 showed me because several of her friends reached out asking if her mom was okay. (Some of D18’s friends follow W on there). She was flipping off the camera in one and dressed in a practically see through shirt in another and just generally looking like someone going through some sh!t. D18 was pretty much in tears from the embarrassment and asking why her mom was acting like a teenager.

WSs are the DEFINITION of selfishness. Don't think for a second she's going to stop her bad actions because it's hurting you or the kids.

It was sad having to comfort her about this, but I just told her that she can’t control the image that W is projecting to the world, that she has every right to feel embarrassed by it, and that her mom will hopefully work her way through it eventually.

Sounds like you listened, validated, and handled the situation and conversation with your daughter very well. Good job dad. Keep rising up above your hurt and be there for your kids - they won't forget it.

I wish W understood the hurt she is causing.

Not sure if they recognize the hurt they cause and don't care at all OR if they're just completely oblivious to it all unless it directly impacts them - probably some of both - but make no mistake...they only do what they think is best for themselves.

[DW17]

Your IC made it seem like you were an idiot to stick it out and fight for your marriage? Does that strike anyone else as an odd thing for an IC to do?

He commended me for sticking it out, but said he couldn't understand how I could do that. It left me feeling like I was making a mistake.

I have 50/50 custody and have traveled for work. If it comes to D try to align your business travel with your off weeks when possible and hopefully you and your Ex can be reasonable about switching time when it doesn't.

My trips are usually a minimum of 1 month up to a max of 8. I got to take the family to CA for 8 months several years ago and it was awesome. This last trip was "short" where I spend 6 weeks there. My Japan trips were both about 4 months long. It worked great when W could just take the summer off and bring the kids, but can't work with split custody.

Because the proliferation of smartphones, tablets, smartwatches...etc. some accounts/services have a "log out of all other devices" option now you might be able to leverage.

I did find this option for my email. It was funny though, it logged me out of my own phone but not the laptop. I had to remove my email account from the computer to get it to stop automatically logging on. I hate technology sometimes.

[BL42]

DW17,

I have 50/50 custody and have traveled for work. If it comes to D try to align your business travel with your off weeks when possible and hopefully you and your Ex can be reasonable about switching time when it doesn't.

My trips are usually a minimum of 1 month up to a max of 8. I got to take the family to CA for 8 months several years ago and it was awesome. This last trip was "short" where I spend 6 weeks there. My Japan trips were both about 4 months long. It worked great when W could just take the summer off and bring the kids, but can't work with split custody.

Those durations are certainly more of a challenge, especially with a young daughter - I was thinking a week at a time - but also have to imagine similar situations have come up before. E.g., Military deployments, pro sports...etc. Do some research online to see how people handle it. There may even be case law which addresses it.

[Kind18]

IC was interesting. I did my basic 2 week recap, we talked about my thoughts on responding to the D papers and I told him I made the decision to stick it out and fight for my marriage. He commended me for the strength to do that, but also made it seem like I was an idiot for doing so.

Counsellors don’t tell you what you should do. Their job is to ask the questions you need to be asked so that YOU make the right decision.

Your counsellor is correct in that they are at least questioning the reasonableness of a decision to stay in a marriage purely to keep the kids happy.

Generally, that’s not a good idea. It leads to unhappy outcomes where both parents resent each other, and children who are exposed every day to a dysfunctional relationship.

I also hung in there and put up with a multitude of s*** behaviours to try and keep it on the rails for my kids. Now I’m divorced, my kids are much happier too.

The marriage is the over-arching principle and reason for a family. It should always be the number one priority, because if it’s healthy, then everything else (work, family, kids) generally looks after itself. Keeping a marriage going for kids alone is like putting a V8 engine in your car to go faster, when it has four bald tyres. Cart before horse.

Keep going to IC, even if you don’t agree with them sometimes. They’re supposed to challenge you and ask the hard questions.

[DW17]

Haven’t posted in a bit, mainly because I usually post from work and I haven’t been at work since Wednesday. The holiday weekend was a mixed bag I guess. I still feel super confused about everything, and being in limbo is tough, but just taking it a day at a time.

Thanksgiving morning I ran my 10k, which due to an unmarked fork on the trail ended up being a mile and a half longer for a bunch of the runners. It was still fun and I thought I did pretty well. I’m already looking for another one to sign up for. While I was running my 10k, W sent me a message stating she was proud of me for setting a goal and accomplishing it. Then she added that just because she doesn’t want to be in an intimate relationship with me and she has a lot of work to do on herself it does not mean that we aren’t a family. She said she is hopeful we will remain close and will do life together for our kids and each other. She said I am always welcome at her mom’s house and it feels weird not having me there, but she respects my decision not to go to Thanksgiving there. I don’t know how to interpret this. It mostly just pissed me off when I first read it. I don’t see a scenario where I interact with her any more than necessary if we split up. I know that’s not her expectation even though I’ve told her I don’t see us as friends if we divorce. I like that she acknowledged she has things to work on, and I think that’s been a focal point of her therapy, but we’ll see.

It was nice spending Thanksgiving with my family, as I usually spend it with the in-laws. It was pretty tough not having my kids with me though. I could feel the emotion building for a few days. I ended up calling my MIL on the way to my aunt’s house and telling her that I wouldn’t be there. I wanted to make sure she knew it had nothing to do with her or my FIL and I thought she should hear it from me. The conversation ended up being a little deeper than I was planning or expecting. We didn’t talk about W, but I got the vibe that MIL doesn’t really know what’s going on, which was unexpected. She said I’m always welcome there and she’s always available if I need to talk. She joked that I’ve been her son almost as long as W has been her daughter. (For context, my MIL is not my wife’s biological mom, she’s her aunt. MIL raised W from about age 7 on, so W has always referred to her as her mom). After the call my emotions all came out. Anger, sadness, a feeling of loss, a bunch of stuff that I’d been keeping in for a few days. I didn’t go to Thanksgiving at the in-laws because of my wife and I did not want to pretend to be a happy family when there’s a lot of hurt and pain in each of us right now. In the days leading up to Thanksgiving, W tried to frame things as me abandoning my kids to be with my family, which pissed me off too. I wanted to tell her she blew up our family at the worst possible time, her selfish actions are causing irreparable damage with the few people in her life who actually do care about her and that her lying and cheating prevented me from spending Thanksgiving with my kids for the first time in their lives. Instead I just respectfully disagreed with her and went about my day. I’m still not 100% sure I made the right decision not to go, but that’s the decision I made and I’ll stick with it.

After Thanksgiving, W was pretty upset with me that I didn’t let her know I was going to call her mom. I later found out that she tried making up a story of why I wasn’t there only to have her mom say she already talked to me about it. I think getting blindsided while trying to badmouth me is what upset her. I never actually told W why I wasn’t going, so maybe she was just making some assumptions. I don’t know if I should have called her mom or not, but I don’t regret it.

W has engaged with the family more than normal the past few week or so, but after a bit she just kind of checks out. It’s like she is forcing herself to come upstairs and socialize, but she can only handle it for a little while. She ate dinner at the table one night, then disappeared to her bed. She’ll try and play with D4, but after 15 minutes, just disappears. I know she is battling depression right now and I’m not sure how that plays into everything. She will cycle between lying in bed (sleeping/watching TV/playing on her phone) and taking baths (usually multiple per day) and she’ll do this for entire days. When she gets home from work, this is usually all she does. It’s weird to observe and her lack of help is causing issues. I get stressed sometimes trying to take care of the kid related things she is neglecting. She doesn’t help with brushing teeth, giving baths, feeding, etc. I was reading about depression this week and one of the things mentioned was that I should be basically praising the little things W does to see if it encourages her to do more. I’m not sure about that strategy, but I did thank her for getting the kids (we have D6 this week) clothes ready and putting them to bed last night while I was at the store. I leave her things alone for her to take care of, but I’m not sure how to get her to do her part around the house, or if I should even be pushing that right now with her mental state. She can’t even put her laundry away, it just sits in baskets all week. It’s tough for me because usually I’m the one cleaning and nagging at everyone to help, but instead I’ve just been letting things go and just doing my fair share. It seems like D18 and S19 have been picking up W’s slack instead. I haven’t asked them to and in some situations I’ve specifically told them not to pick up certain things that W left lying around.

W still hasn’t mentioned the D papers and there’s been no real conversation about the future. D18 was concerned about where her stuff would be going when she left. W assured her she’d have a room at one of our houses, which I thought was funny. I am stressing about affording a 3 bedroom house right now and I know I can’t swing a 4 bedroom, especially if it isn’t being used. Pretty sure W can’t either. It’s just weird sifting through the fog she’s in. I probably shouldn’t be analyzing it, and I don’t for the most part, it’s just weird watching someone going through depression/MLC/whatever the hell she’s dealing with. And for whatever reason I’m starting to feel a mixture of anger and empathy rather than just sadness.

Okay, now some GAL stuff - Most of the long weekend I just spent time with the kids. I took the dog on a long walk, visited with my sister, and went out to watch a friend’s band one night. I invited some people but they were all busy. After waffling a bit, I just went solo. I told myself that whenever I debate whether or not I should do something, I need to just do it. I ran into some people I knew, got to chat with some people I didn’t know, and it ended up being a lot of fun. I finished the Boundaries book finally. Good info, but I’m still not there. I want to find another book this week about boundaries. I’m re-reading DR and I’m about to start another book that was recommended called Getting Back Together. The title feels a little optimistic for where I’m at right now, but I’ll give it a shot. I’m trying to set some kind of fitness goal/plan for next month also. Probably a mixture of running, ab workouts and continuing the daily pushups I’ve been doing all month. It felt like I spent a little too much time at home this weekend, even though a good chunk was spent with the kids. I’ll try to do a little more for myself the next few weeks and finalize some holiday event with the kids.

Sorry for the long post. I hope everyone enjoyed their weekends.

[DW17]

Haven’t posted in a bit, mainly because I usually post from work and I haven’t been at work since Wednesday. The holiday weekend was a mixed bag I guess. I still feel super confused about everything, and being in limbo is tough, but just taking it a day at a time.

Thanksgiving morning I ran my 10k, which due to an unmarked fork on the trail ended up being a mile and a half longer for a bunch of the runners. It was still fun and I thought I did pretty well. I’m already looking for another one to sign up for. While I was running my 10k, W sent me a message stating she was proud of me for setting a goal and accomplishing it. Then she added that just because she doesn’t want to be in an intimate relationship with me and she has a lot of work to do on herself it does not mean that we aren’t a family. She said she is hopeful we will remain close and will do life together for our kids and each other. She said I am always welcome at her mom’s house and it feels weird not having me there, but she respects my decision not to go to Thanksgiving there. I don’t know how to interpret this. It mostly just pissed me off when I first read it. I don’t see a scenario where I interact with her any more than necessary if we split up. I know that’s not her expectation even though I’ve told her I don’t see us as friends if we divorce. I like that she acknowledged she has things to work on, and I think that’s been a focal point of her therapy, but we’ll see.

It was nice spending Thanksgiving with my family, as I usually spend it with the in-laws. It was pretty tough not having my kids with me though. I could feel the emotion building for a few days. I ended up calling my MIL on the way to my aunt’s house and telling her that I wouldn’t be there. I wanted to make sure she knew it had nothing to do with her or my FIL and I thought she should hear it from me. The conversation ended up being a little deeper than I was planning or expecting. We didn’t talk about W, but I got the vibe that MIL doesn’t really know what’s going on, which was unexpected. She said I’m always welcome there and she’s always available if I need to talk. She joked that I’ve been her son almost as long as W has been her daughter. (For context, my MIL is not my wife’s biological mom, she’s her aunt. MIL raised W from about age 7 on, so W has always referred to her as her mom). After the call my emotions all came out. Anger, sadness, a feeling of loss, a bunch of stuff that I’d been keeping in for a few days. I didn’t go to Thanksgiving at the in-laws because of my wife and I did not want to pretend to be a happy family when there’s a lot of hurt and pain in each of us right now. In the days leading up to Thanksgiving, W tried to frame things as me abandoning my kids to be with my family, which pissed me off too. I wanted to tell her she blew up our family at the worst possible time, her selfish actions are causing irreparable damage with the few people in her life who actually do care about her and that her lying and cheating prevented me from spending Thanksgiving with my kids for the first time in their lives. Instead I just respectfully disagreed with her and went about my day. I’m still not 100% sure I made the right decision not to go, but that’s the decision I made and I’ll stick with it.

After Thanksgiving, W was pretty upset with me that I didn’t let her know I was going to call her mom. I later found out that she tried making up a story of why I wasn’t there only to have her mom say she already talked to me about it. I think getting blindsided while trying to badmouth me is what upset her. I never actually told W why I wasn’t going, so maybe she was just making some assumptions. I don’t know if I should have called her mom or not, but I don’t regret it.

W has engaged with the family more than normal the past few week or so, but after a bit she just kind of checks out. It’s like she is forcing herself to come upstairs and socialize, but she can only handle it for a little while. She ate dinner at the table one night, then disappeared to her bed. She’ll try and play with D4, but after 15 minutes, just disappears. I know she is battling depression right now and I’m not sure how that plays into everything. She will cycle between lying in bed (sleeping/watching TV/playing on her phone) and taking baths (usually multiple per day) and she’ll do this for entire days. When she gets home from work, this is usually all she does. It’s weird to observe and her lack of help is causing issues. I get stressed sometimes trying to take care of the kid related things she is neglecting. She doesn’t help with brushing teeth, giving baths, feeding, etc. I was reading about depression this week and one of the things mentioned was that I should be basically praising the little things W does to see if it encourages her to do more. I’m not sure about that strategy, but I did thank her for getting the kids (we have D6 this week) clothes ready and putting them to bed last night while I was at the store. I leave her things alone for her to take care of, but I’m not sure how to get her to do her part around the house, or if I should even be pushing that right now with her mental state. She can’t even put her laundry away, it just sits in baskets all week. It’s tough for me because usually I’m the one cleaning and nagging at everyone to help, but instead I’ve just been letting things go and just doing my fair share. It seems like D18 and S19 have been picking up W’s slack instead. I haven’t asked them to and in some situations I’ve specifically told them not to pick up certain things that W left lying around.

W still hasn’t mentioned the D papers and there’s been no real conversation about the future. D18 was concerned about where her stuff would be going when she left. W assured her she’d have a room at one of our houses, which I thought was funny. I am stressing about affording a 3 bedroom house right now and I know I can’t swing a 4 bedroom, especially if it isn’t being used. Pretty sure W can’t either. It’s just weird sifting through the fog she’s in. I probably shouldn’t be analyzing it, and I don’t for the most part, it’s just weird watching someone going through depression/MLC/whatever the hell she’s dealing with. And for whatever reason I’m starting to feel a mixture of anger and empathy rather than just sadness.

Okay, now some GAL stuff - Most of the long weekend I just spent time with the kids. I took the dog on a long walk, visited with my sister, and went out to watch a friend’s band one night. I invited some people but they were all busy. After waffling a bit, I just went solo. I told myself that whenever I debate whether or not I should do something, I need to just do it. I ran into some people I knew, got to chat with some people I didn’t know, and it ended up being a lot of fun. I finished the Boundaries book finally. Good info, but I’m still not there. I want to find another book this week about boundaries. I’m re-reading DR and I’m about to start another book that was recommended called Getting Back Together. The title feels a little optimistic for where I’m at right now, but I’ll give it a shot. I’m trying to set some kind of fitness goal/plan for next month also. Probably a mixture of running, ab workouts and continuing the daily pushups I’ve been doing all month. It felt like I spent a little too much time at home this weekend, even though a good chunk was spent with the kids. I’ll try to do a little more for myself the next few weeks and finalize some holiday event with the kids.

Sorry for the long post. I hope everyone enjoyed their weekends.

[LH19]

Then she added that just because she doesn’t want to be in an intimate relationship with me and she has a lot of work to do on herself it does not mean that we aren’t a family. She said she is hopeful we will remain close and will do life together for our kids and each other. She said I am always welcome at her mom’s house and it feels weird not having me there, but she respects my decision not to go to Thanksgiving there. I don’t know how to interpret this.

This is the first time I have read something genuine from your W and she is being very honest with you. Not really sure what other way to intrepid it.

[DW17]

Sorry for the double post, not sure what happened there or how to delete one.

LH19 - Yeah, I haven't read or heard much from her that has been genuine the past few months, so it does stand out. I guess I've gotten used to trying not to read into things so when I got something that felt real, it threw me off a bit. I did tell her thank you and that I appreciated it but that was it.

[LH19]

Sorry for the double post, not sure what happened there or how to delete one.

LH19 - Yeah, I haven't read or heard much from her that has been genuine the past few months, so it does stand out. I guess I've gotten used to trying not to read into things so when I got something that felt real, it threw me off a bit. I did tell her thank you and that I appreciated it but that was it.

Ugh DW that is not a “thank you” moment. It’s a I understand you feel that way but we will not be friends when we divorce. End of discussion.

[Ready2Change]

Ugh DW that is not a “thank you” moment. It’s a I understand you feel that way but we will not be friends when we divorce. End of discussion.

[Ready2Change]

I did tell her thank you and that I appreciated it but that was it.

So why did you leave this out of your first post about the interaction?


It is hard for us to give appropriate feedback if details are missing.

[SteveLW]

W still hasn’t mentioned the D papers and there’s been no real conversation about the future. D18 was concerned about where her stuff would be going when she left. W assured her she’d have a room at one of our houses, which I thought was funny. I am stressing about affording a 3 bedroom house right now and I know I can’t swing a 4 bedroom, especially if it isn’t being used. Pretty sure W can’t either. It’s just weird sifting through the fog she’s in. I probably shouldn’t be analyzing it, and I don’t for the most part, it’s just weird watching someone going through depression/MLC/whatever the hell she’s dealing with. And for whatever reason I’m starting to feel a mixture of anger and empathy rather than just sadness.

Typical WAS. No follow-thru. If you read through the situations here, most LBSs end up being the one to file for D. Because the WAS is usually lazy, and after they state what they want they just expect it will happen. DW17, have you considered setting a drop-dead date? A date that if she isn't recommitted fully back to the marriage then you will hire a lawyer and go file yourself? Do you know how long you are willing to live in the current situation? Being married to someone that clearly doesn't want to be married to you, isn't willing to put any work into the marriage, and goes around making it abundantly clear how miserable they are?

Also, notice that your WAW is in the "just tell them what they want to hear" mode that a lot of WASs default too. Your D18 asked a difficult question, and your WAW gave her an answer she thought she needed to hear. This is typical. They will say whatever is most convenient at that moment. This is why you cannot believe anything she says, and only half of what she does.

Great GAL. Good activities and personal insight (on spending too much time at home). Recognition is the first step to correction. So correct that moving forward and keep focusing on GAL!

[DW17]

Link to new thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2939916&#Post2939916