Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Rockon Action - 09/25/22 07:19 PM
Here is my precious post:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937882&page=1

I want to determine my next steps as I take action to be the man I need to be and respond appropriately to WW.

Currently in my way home from a great weekend away with a solid friend.

Interestingly, W made plans to hang out with this friends W this weekend after my friend’s W reached out to her saying, “Want to hang out while the men are away?”

This is the 3rd solid, pro marriage mature and wise friend that W has connected with this week.

Something she had been very reluctant to do until recently.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 09/25/22 11:27 PM
Quote
I don’t want to drive her to the airport but am considering picking her up on return if she asks - not sure.

OMG just no.

Why on earth would you provide transport for someone who is going away to cheat on you? That makes no sense.

YOU CANT “NICE” HER BACK TO MARRIAGE.

You may think if you’re nice she’ll love you for your unconditional support. In reality, she’s going to think you’re weak as s**t and lose even more respect for you. Every time you are nice, weak and pathetic, your chance of reconciliation is much less.

As your thread title suggests, it’s time for action. And by action I don’t mean to force her hand or bully her, but action to stand up for yourself and stop this person from treating you like absolute cr*p.

What if your best male friend phoned you, told you his wife was going on a holiday to bang her AP, and he was thinking of picking her up from the airport. What would you say to him?

The following is just my personal opinion, and I guess it doesn’t align with DB principles and I may get flamed, but it’s my opinion nonetheless…. If I were you, I’d offer to drive her to the airport and as she gets out of the car, encourage her not to come back, tell her you’re changing the locks and that her things will be in storage when she returns… oh and here’s my lawyers business card. BON VOYAGE!

You need to work on self love and self respect at IC. Next IC appointment, make this your number one priority and ask for them to help you with this.

Hang in there Rockon. We know it’s hard. Sending lots of love!
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/26/22 03:23 AM
Thank you Kind
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 09/26/22 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Kind18
Quote
I don’t want to drive her to the airport but am considering picking her up on return if she asks - not sure.

OMG just no.

Why on earth would you provide transport for someone who is going away to cheat on you? That makes no sense.

YOU CANT “NICE” HER BACK TO MARRIAGE.

You may think if you’re nice she’ll love you for your unconditional support. In reality, she’s going to think you’re weak as s**t and lose even more respect for you. Every time you are nice, weak and pathetic, your chance of reconciliation is much less.

As your thread title suggests, it’s time for action. And by action I don’t mean to force her hand or bully her, but action to stand up for yourself and stop this person from treating you like absolute cr*p.

What if your best male friend phoned you, told you his wife was going on a holiday to bang her AP, and he was thinking of picking her up from the airport. What would you say to him?

The following is just my personal opinion, and I guess it doesn’t align with DB principles and I may get flamed, but it’s my opinion nonetheless…. If I were you, I’d offer to drive her to the airport and as she gets out of the car, encourage her not to come back, tell her you’re changing the locks and that her things will be in storage when she returns… oh and here’s my lawyers business card. BON VOYAGE!

You need to work on self love and self respect at IC. Next IC appointment, make this your number one priority and ask for them to help you with this.

Hang in there Rockon. We know it’s hard. Sending lots of love!

Ok so picking her up from the airport while away with a/p not a good idea.

Kind’s idea while better not a good idea right now. You are not there yet but that is where this journey is going to take you.

Eventually as you continue to make changes and improve yourself you will start to understand your value as a person and you will no longer tolerate this kind of behavior.

Unfortunately like most of us here you will have to learn the hard way. Right now you believe your W is the most wonderful woman in the world and you can’t live without her. This will change in time and you will begin to see the person she really is right now. It’s just up to you how long this ride takes until you decide you want to get off the roller coaster.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/26/22 02:42 PM
I’m getting closer to jumping off the coaster in some ways and you members telling me like it is helps . It’s taking the action that aligns with my conscience and honestly appraising reality that needs to happen.

In the meantime, maybe as a result of my steps (baby steps maybe) of LRT, as well as W experiencing some consequences and reality check’s herself, her reaching out to solid long term pro marriage friends, and also some negative feedback from our kids concerning her behaviours, she is voicing more dissatisfaction with what is transpiring. And she is acting les entitled, more humble and apologizing for her actions.

She told me last night that our son called and tore a strip off her. He has been conveying a lot of respect to me. She asked me to help her access a new more helpful therapist.

Baby steps. And I need to stay the course. Strengthen myself and take appropriate action.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 09/26/22 03:00 PM
Yeah not your circus not your monkeys. She needs to come out of this on her own and finding her own therapist.

What consequences do you think your W might face?
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/26/22 03:22 PM
She responded to daughter’s invitation for W to come with some of her long time solid friends to a womens retreat in the spring with, “If I have any friends left.”

She is voicing a lot of stress. Said “it’s really hard living at her moms.” Her health is suffering. She is feeling estranged from our kids. She is worried about finances, credit rating, vehicle maintenance.

She told me in the summer, “this is really really difficult it goes against my core beliefs.

Some consequences that I am not trying to fix for her
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Action - 09/26/22 03:23 PM
Stop looking over your shoulder to see where she is....


She is never going to 'miss' something that she hasn't lost....
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 09/26/22 03:31 PM
The most wasted time in human history is trying to figure out what a WS is thinking.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 09/26/22 06:37 PM
Rockon,
Originally Posted by Rockon
I don’t want to drive her to the airport but am considering picking her up on return if she asks - not sure.
Originally Posted by Kind18
The following is just my personal opinion, and I guess it doesn’t align with DB principles and I may get flamed, but it’s my opinion nonetheless…. If I were you, I’d offer to drive her to the airport and as she gets out of the car, encourage her not to come back, tell her you’re changing the locks and that her things will be in storage when she returns… oh and here’s my lawyers business card. BON VOYAGE!
Originally Posted by LH19
Kind’s idea while better not a good idea right now. You are not there yet but that is where this journey is going to take you.
Although Kind18's suggestion may not be "official DB'ing principles" and perhaps not a good idea right now - though if I'm being honest it really resonated with me - know this...in terms of your mindset you want to be a whole lot closer to Kind18's approach of dropping her off and handing her your L's card than your approach of picking her up from the airport after her romp with AP. That's the strong, confident, "good luck with that because I'm gonna have a great life regardless" mindset you need right now.

Originally Posted by Rockon
In the meantime, maybe as a result of my steps (baby steps maybe) of LRT, as well as W experiencing some consequences and reality check’s herself, her reaching out to solid long term pro marriage friends, and also some negative feedback from our kids concerning her behaviours, she is voicing more dissatisfaction with what is transpiring. And she is acting les entitled, more humble and apologizing for her actions.
Softening, meeting with pro-marriage friends, less entitled...etc. is all good. But A) make sure you're not reading too much into things and/or projecting your hopes onto her actions, and B) like Mach and LH say...you're better off spending your time focusing on yourself than worrying about her.

Originally Posted by Rockon
She told me last night that our son called and tore a strip off her. He has been conveying a lot of respect to me. She asked me to help her access a new more helpful therapist.
Make sure you're not discussing details with your kids and certainly not encouraging them to pressure her on your behalf. They're going to figure out what's up on their own without your help, and your W won't appreciate you recruiting them to your cause.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Action - 09/26/22 06:56 PM
You need to stop being her shoulder to cry on. You are still interacting with her way too much.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/26/22 07:01 PM
LH and Kind:

"good luck with that because I'm gonna have a great life regardless" mindset you need right now.

I am seeing this more clearly.

“ make sure you're not reading too much into things and/or projecting your hopes onto her actions, and B) like Mach and LH say...you're better off spending your time focusing on yourself than worrying about her.”

Ok yes

Make sure you're not discussing details with your kids and certainly not encouraging them to pressure her on your behalf. They're going to figure out what's up on their own without your help, and your W won't appreciate you recruiting them to your cause

I am being careful and discerning about this.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/26/22 07:25 PM
Steve - yes this is a touch one. I see the need to forge a new approach of no more Mr Nice Guy
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 09/26/22 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
She told me last night…

She responded to…

She is voicing a lot of stress.

Said …

She told me in the summer…

She she she she she… you are there for her WAY too much. I’d be pretty uninterested in listening to the woes of a cheater.

Next time she sounds like she’s going to say how she feels, cut the conversation off before she starts and physically leave the house.

You interrupt with “I’m going with my buddies to drink beer and watch sport at a bar. Seeya!”
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 09/26/22 10:07 PM
And then go and have a great time doing ANYTHING other than listening to her BS.

You have to work on prioritising things which make you happy. Sitting around listening to her moan about her crappy choices is not going to make you happy. It’s just going to make you sad, anxious and depressed.

Plus, once you’re a happy, confident man… she may not want to leave so much.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/27/22 12:10 AM
Right. Hmmm this is making more and more sense.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/27/22 05:34 AM
Just went out and took salsa dancing lessons. Was that ever a blast. As I was walking home had a big grin on my face. So many friendly and happy people.

Noticed lots of texts from W. Maybe respond tomorrow. Or she can text again.

Smile
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 09/27/22 06:04 AM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Just went out and took salsa dancing lessons. Was that ever a blast. As I was walking home had a big grin on my face. So many friendly and happy people.

Noticed lots of texts from W. Maybe respond tomorrow. Or she can text again.

Smile

Your best update yet!

This is the way forward! Don’t tell her about Salsa, don’t put it in her face, don’t try and make her jealous… Remember, you are doing this for you. Who could care less what she thinks.

Just start planning tomorrow’s adventure!

What about a trip to a museum? A wine tasting trip? A day hiking? Go to your local library, get a recipe book and make something new - and eat it all yourself! Ride a bike, or think of something you’ve spent years putting off and get it done tomorrow.

Life is there to be lived. Put that feeling you had post-Salsa dancing in your memory bank. You want that feeling again!
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/28/22 09:34 PM
Continuing to have a blast. Went out in a new city last couple days, hung out with good friends, met lots of fun people enjoyed culture, good food, lots of walks and swimming and didn’t tell W about any of it.

Heading home now. Will be getting work done of the house. Continuing with therapy, solid friends and kids and fun.

Working through anxiety and pain. Having clarity and conviction.

Not reaching out to W
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/30/22 03:35 PM
Some of the action that I am working on:

1. GAL surfing hockey tennis working out pub nights salsa lessons museums library learning to cook more delicious meals with nutritional value church good friendships

2. Giving lots of time and space to W. Not initiating contact unless necessary and even so waiting if it doesn’t have to be now . Being less available. Cutting short time together to do things for myself.
Not being needy around her or in conversation with her. Working from a place of power while also recognizing her power and that I control me.

3. Taking care of myself. Working on our house because it’s important to me. Going to therapy. Doing the homework. Working on my sleep and addressing health issues with my doctor. Addressing and investing in important relationships like my parents and my siblings and our kids.Investing in solid friends that are good for me but I’m also being good for them. There have been times where I really needed them in the last while and I still do but some of those times have been me taking a lot and that’s OK but it feels really good to be able to give. Being financially responsible.

This stuff is not easy! But vital!

Since I’ve been trying to make these changes more and even though it’s a relatively short period of time that I have been receiving the feedback from this group I do notice changes in myself and in the dynamic relating to W.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 09/30/22 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Cutting short time together to do things for myself.
What time are you spending together?
Originally Posted by Rockon
I do notice changes in myself and in the dynamic relating to W.
In what way is the dynamic changing?
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 09/30/22 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Rockon
Cutting short time together to do things for myself.
What time are you spending together?


WE are collaborating on some project planning on our house (I am initiating the work myself and with some of my skilled friends but she is showing interest and helping on occasion). Also we are working together on co parenting (some complexities with children with significant disabilities; she is engaging much more here lately and she is commiting to IC therapy)



Originally Posted by Rockon
I do notice changes in myself and in the dynamic relating to W.
In what way is the dynamic changing?


SO I have backed off living my life being busy and less available and she is really reaching out a lot and so I’m trying to navigate and be clear on myself and my boundaries and that seems to be having a post it I’ve effect. When she voices to me concerns, isssues and distress, I validate in a detached way (trying to more and more) and ask her what she wants to do about it sometimes or what she needs - if it’s medical I ask if she has talked with her doctor or what she is doing to address it - if it’s work stress I ask her how she can look after herself and if she’s addressed it with her work and IC - if it’s coparenting worries I validate and try to be clear on what is our separate parts and what to collaborate on.

She is starting to discuss future married plans together (she is initiating this: vacation ideas, work, education, church, leisure, dreams together - I am being cautious and cool on this and maintaining my firm boundary without a need to restate it (I have made myself clear) that cheating and infidelity is a no go for rebuilding and reconciling our marriage.

She did voice some suicidal ideation to me and I took her seriously and asked if she was thinking about ending her life. She clarified that she was so completely overwhelmed and distressed but not actually going there nevertheless I gave her a 24/7 Crisis line and also let one of her friends know that I am worried about her stress level.

I would appreciate your feedback and insights.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 09/30/22 05:01 PM
Rockon,

Originally Posted by Rockon
I would appreciate your feedback and insights.
Honestly? Based on your updates it sounds like you're crushing it right now.

That's some extreme GAL'ing...surfing, hockey, tennis, working out, pub nights, salsa lessons, museums, library, learning to cook more delicious meals with nutritional value church good friendships....etc. Fantastic. Are you sure you have time for it all??? Usually we have to encourage LBSs here to get off the couch...we may need to warn you not to wear yourself down. LOL. That's great though - the more active you are with interesting activities and having fun with other people the better. Way to enjoy life.

You're taking care of yourself by working out, eating healthy, going to therapy....etc.

You seem to be giving W time and space and not pressuring with R talk. The interactions you describe with concerns/issues/distress, medical/health, and work stress all seem good. Continue to listen & empathize not "fix".

Originally Posted by Rockon
Also we are working together on co parenting (some complexities with children with significant disabilities
I didn't realize your children have disabilities. That is a extra area of stress in a married couple, that seems to lead to a more common sitch here.

Originally Posted by Rockon
She is starting to discuss future married plans together (she is initiating this: vacation ideas, work, education, church, leisure, dreams together - I am being cautious and cool on this and maintaining my firm boundary without a need to restate it (I have made myself clear) that cheating and infidelity is a no go for rebuilding and reconciling our marriage.
My $0.02 is to be happy and easy going about it, but non-committal. When she suggest a future vacation..."Wow, that sounds like a lot of fun. I'll have to think about that." Be positive and encouraging, but don't commit to anything...and most importantly don't let it raise your expectations and therefore lead to disappointment down the road...detachment.

Originally Posted by Rockon
She did voice some suicidal ideation to me and I took her seriously and asked if she was thinking about ending her life. She clarified that she was so completely overwhelmed and distressed but not actually going there nevertheless I gave her a 24/7 Crisis line and also let one of her friends know that I am worried about her stress level.
Suicide is very serious. The fact she even mentioned it could be a cry for help. I'm no expert, but think you did the right thing to give her the crisis line info and hopefully her IC is helping.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 09/30/22 05:25 PM
So I am going to be crystal clear. If she still has a BF and is going on holiday with this loser you should not be her support in anyway shape or form. If she is serious about suicide get her the help she needs because that is way above your pay grade.

Talk is cheap. Look for actions.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/01/22 02:48 PM
Heading out surfing with my son and brother in law. Gonna be good to clear my head.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Action - 10/01/22 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Heading out surfing with my son and brother in law. Gonna be good to clear my head.


Clearing out like in soaking your head in saltwater ???

Or just being who you are and not letting your situation rule your life ??

One is good...

The other ???

Not so much...

: )
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/02/22 01:24 AM
Mach:
For sure enjoyed the sun saltwater waves and great company of men I respect today and a break from lots of stuff too!

It was great to be myself.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/02/22 04:54 AM
I am still struggling mightily in my emotions. It is a really tough go for me to be honest. I am trying my best and learning as much as I can.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/02/22 10:30 AM
Rockon

This is very hard. Maybe the hardest thing you will ever do. Best thing to do is to process these emotions. When you are alone cry, beat your pillow, scream etc. whatever it takes.

The hardest thing is understand you have zero control of the outcome and can feel your family slipping away. The second hardest thing is understanding that everything you should be doing is counterintuitive than what feels right to you. You can not nice your W back. You absolutely should not be her emotional support system.

You are doing great with Gal but it’s very obvious you are looking for clues that she is softening. Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/02/22 01:30 PM
LH: You’re right! This is the hardest thing. I am definitely having big cries alone. And so much of this is very counterintuitive. Sometimes I don’t know if I can keep the course on making the adjustments. It’s devastating.

These boards are really helpful. And so is therapy and especially my one good friend. But I still feel so alone in this. I think that’s the pain of rejection and betrayal. Can you give me any more specifics how I can not allow her reassurance of where she stands with me? Should I be explicit with her about this and tell her or simply shift and disengage and detach?

W’s departure is Oct 9th I think.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/02/22 07:51 PM
Rockon,
Originally Posted by Rockon
Heading out surfing with my son and brother in law. Gonna be good to clear my head.
Thumbs up on the surfing with son...not sure about the BIL part. Is that smart?

Originally Posted by Rockon
I am still struggling mightily in my emotions. It is a really tough go for me to be honest. I am trying my best and learning as much as I can.
This is completely normal. You're currently riding a rollercoaster on which there will be ups and downs...the key is you're trending up over time.

Originally Posted by LH19
This is very hard. Maybe the hardest thing you will ever do. Best thing to do is to process these emotions. When you are alone cry, beat your pillow, scream etc. whatever it takes.
Right. Get out all those emotions...just don't let her see them.

Originally Posted by LH19
You are doing great with Gal but it’s very obvious you are looking for clues that she is softening.
LH is very perceptive. I completely agree. You're crushing it with GAL, but stop searching for every little sign of her softening and projecting your hopes onto the situation.

Originally Posted by LH19
Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.
Yep.

Originally Posted by Rockon
Can you give me any more specifics how I can not allow her reassurance of where she stands with me? Should I be explicit with her about this and tell her or simply shift and disengage and detach?
Do not TELL her anything. You can't "convince" her or "logic" her. It has to be genuine. She has to FEEL it. Get into a mindset where you're going to be happy and have an awesome life regardless.

Originally Posted by Rockon
W’s departure is Oct 9th I think.
Have you prepped yourself mentally for that week? It might be (understandably) very difficult. What are your plans? Line up therapy, outings, friends & family in advance. Or...go somewhere yourself!
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/03/22 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by BL42
Rockon,
Originally Posted by Rockon
Heading out surfing with my son and brother in law. Gonna be good to clear my head.
Thumbs up on the surfing with son...not sure about the BIL part. Is that smart?

Rockon: yes it’s smart. He invited us to go surfing - I didn’t bring up W in conversation once and neither did either of them. It was a great day with great company.



Originally Posted by LH19
This is very hard. Maybe the hardest thing you will ever do. Best thing to do is to process these emotions. When you are alone cry, beat your pillow, scream etc. whatever it takes.
Right. Get out all those emotions...just don't let her see them

Rockon: I am getting them out and I’m not letting her see.

Originally Posted by LH19
You are doing great with Gal but it’s very obvious you are looking for clues that she is softening.
LH is very perceptive. I completely agree. You're crushing it with GAL, but stop searching for every little sign of her softening and projecting your hopes onto the situation.

Rockon : ok

Originally Posted by LH19
Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.
Yep.

Originally Posted by Rockon
Can you give me any more specifics how I can not allow her reassurance of where she stands with me? Should I be explicit with her about this and tell her or simply shift and disengage and detach?
Do not TELL her anything. You can't "convince" her or "logic" her. It has to be genuine. She has to FEEL it. Get into a mindset where you're going to be happy and have an awesome life regardless.

Rockon: ok thanks I don’t think there’s anything else I need to say that I haven’t already and I will work on that mindset.

Originally Posted by Rockon
W’s departure is Oct 9th I think.
Have you prepped yourself mentally for that week? It might be (understandably) very difficult. What are your plans? Line up therapy, outings, friends & family in advance. Or...go somewhere yourself!

Rockon : I have therapy lined up yes also , friends, family - have been thinking of going somewhere also yes
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/03/22 11:38 PM
Headed out of town with my parents for a few days. Great to spend time with them. Going to visit my son as well. W texted me after her therapist appointment and thanked me for supporting her to access it. I hadn’t told her I was heading out of town.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/04/22 09:43 AM
What does she mean accessing it?
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/04/22 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
What does she mean accessing it?

She thanked me for helping her to set it up.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/04/22 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
She thanked me for helping her to set it up.
What if I was to tell you Rockon that there is a very good chance that her therapist could tell her is the best and quickest way for her to find happiness is to divorce you? How would that make you feel? That is VERY likely to be the advice she gets because that's what she wants to hear.

Two famous DB says:
1. You didn't break her and you can't fix her.
2. Not your circus not your monkeys

So when I say the best chance of reconciliation is to go in the complete opposite direction do you think getting her a therapist fits that bill?
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/04/22 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Rockon
She thanked me for helping her to set it up.
What if I was to tell you Rockon that there is a very good chance that her therapist could tell her is the best and quickest way for her to find happiness is to divorce you? How would that make you feel? That is VERY likely to be the advice she gets because that's what she wants to hear.

Two famous DB says:
1. You didn't break her and you can't fix her.
2. Not your circus not your monkeys

So when I say the best chance of reconciliation is to go in the complete opposite direction do you think getting her a therapist fits that bill?

Interesting for sure. And perhaps tho it doesn’t seem that way to me. I think that was really happening with the therapist she was seeing but she asked me to help her find a new therapist when she was making shifts. And also she wants both her and I to connect with our former pastor The one who married us years ago and has stood by us.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/04/22 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
I think that was really happening with the therapist she was seeing but she asked me to help her find a new therapist when she was making shifts.
What are these "shifts" she is making?
Originally Posted by Rockon
And also she wants both her and I to connect with our former pastor The one who married us years ago and has stood by us.
What do you mean connect? What do you mean stood by us?
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/04/22 03:39 PM
Rockon,

Originally Posted by LH19
So when I say the best chance of reconciliation is to go in the complete opposite direction do you think getting her a therapist fits that bill?
Originally Posted by Rockon
I think that was really happening with the therapist she was seeing but she asked me to help her find a new therapist when she was making shifts.
What LH was saying is stop being her crutch; remove that emotional support helping her through the affair. She can find a new therapist for herself if she really wants to. You don't need to do that for her. She needs to feel you're not going to be there to comfort her after she travels off to have an affair.

Originally Posted by Rockon
And also she wants both her and I to connect with our former pastor The one who married us years ago and has stood by us.
If she truly deeply wants you two to meet with the pastor I'd take that as a good sign but let her be the one to make the effort. If you're desperately reaching out to make all these connections and she's not taking the action, it's a lot less meaningful.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:09 AM
Today W called me, showed interest in me and my therapy, asking about my day etc. asking about my time with my parents, my time away in another city (I’m still away and will be celebrating Mom’s 79th birthday tonight!) and visiting Son (young adult with significant mental health challenges and needs).

She proposed an idea, she has been concerned about this Son learning about our separation. She said she is finding an urgency to tell him and that our older son (who is very upset with W about how she is treating me) is upset that we haven’t told the younger son. I validated and expressed my opinion that I don’t have the same sense of urgency to tell him. I did agree that I would ask the siblings not to tell him but to wait for us to make the decision. I did share my perspective that if we decide to tell him, it would be best in my opinion to tell him in person rather than over the phone and to involve his health care team so that he has support to process.

For context, all three other kids are very upset with W and are expressing thoughtful support for me. I have not mentioned any of my concerns about an affair to any of the kids. Oldest daughter said she had a panic attack after W told her. That D texted me, called the oldest S and then called me and we had a very caring convo.

W told me that she is thinking all the time about moving back in with me and would like to pursue MC in her return from her overseas trip. She also proposed that we tell youngest S on her return home as well and that she and I stay together in a hotel to do that (S is in another city). I responded that these were all interesting ideas that I am open to considering and that zi appreciated her bringing them forward.

Please help me with perspectives and considerations.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:19 AM
My thoughts are to take things slow and somewhat methodical and for me to stay in my power and stand by my convictions. And not be overly enthusiastic or committal with W’s solutions but also not try and solve her problems.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:24 AM
LH: sometimes I have a pretty thick skull comes in handy at times I play hockey but also a handicap it can take me awhile to understand and catch on to new concepts and behaviours.

Can you unpack this a bit more and help me to get it:

“ Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.”

How? When? What?

Thank you all so much!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/05/22 02:21 AM
Rockon,
Originally Posted by Rockon
W told me that she is thinking all the time about moving back in with me and would like to pursue MC in her return from her overseas trip.
Maybe I'm confused, but I thought she was going on this overseas trip to see her affair partner?
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 10/05/22 03:13 AM
Yeah I don’t get it either.

Isn’t she going away to spend time with AP?

Your comments regarding telling kids - I think your response there was fair enough.

As for staying in same hotel, her moving back in, MC - I wouldn’t be engaging in those discussions yet.

It could very well be that she has seen you start to disconnect and she needs her fix of knowing she has a backup plan when she is away. If you say “sure, you can move in and we’ll do MC” - she knows she has you, and so she can go away on her trip knowing her backup plan is rock solid.

I’d engage about telling your youngest, but nothing else. Remain non-commital and disinterested. IMHO she needs to show tangible, obvious shift for you to even consider MC. As you know, LH19 often says the MC suggestion seems to be a good thing - but is often part of their guilt free escape plan.

You know what’s infinitely better than working on discussions with kids, and staying at a hotel, and her moving back in, and you two going to marriage counselling….

Her cancelling her sex trip with AP.

I’m sorry to bust your bubble. But I’d be very, VERY careful. These things take 2-5 years to genuinely turn around, so this doesn’t seem legit to me.

Move very, VERY slowly and cautiously. Be indifferent. Disinterested.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/05/22 03:48 AM
Rockon,

Here's the thing...

People who have the desire to save their marriage don't then go on a trip to visit their affair partner.

People who truly want to move back in don't tell their children they're separating.

Originally Posted by Kind18
You know what’s infinitely better than working on discussions with kids, and staying at a hotel, and her moving back in, and you two going to marriage counselling…

Her cancelling her sex trip with AP.
^Exactly. She may say she's thinking about moving back in and MC, but what does she do?

Originally Posted by Rockon
Can you unpack this a bit more and help me to get it:
Originally Posted by LH19
Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.
It means if she's walking West, you start running East with a smile on your face.

It means if you two are walking down the street and she takes an unexpected right, instead of feebly following behind her or hanging back at the intersection waiting for her to circle back, you turn left all on your own and happily stroll along enjoying the live music, food, drink, and company down that street.

It means if she's going on a trip to meet up with AP, instead of reassuring her you're on board with MC and you still want her to move back in when she gets back, you respond with a "Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that anymore". Or, if you really have the stones...remember what Kind18 recommended about giving her your L's card as she's leaving at the airport??? Not saying that's the precise play, but your attitude should be a lot closer to that than the scared weak man back home hoping she'll change her mind.

Making it easy for her to go off and do whatever she wants with the comfort and safety net of knowing she'll face no repercussions about coming home to you if she changes her mind will NOT help your cause.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 04:17 AM
Thank you for your patience and spelling it out for me.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 05:17 AM
Kind:” You know what’s infinitely better than working on discussions with kids, and staying at a hotel, and her moving back in, and you two going to marriage counselling….

Her cancelling her sex trip with AP”

Do you think I should say this to her? I have been thinking I have said everything I need to say and been clear where I stand. It’s my actions that need to speak louder than words. But I haven’t said that exactly!

Thanks
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 10/05/22 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Do you think I should say this to her? I have been thinking I have said everything I need to say and been clear where I stand. It’s my actions that need to speak louder than words. But I haven’t said that exactly!

Thanks

1. Nope! Remember what we said… NO TALKS! Here’s how it will play out.
“You should cancel sex trip.”
“Who said it’s a sex trip, that’s a lie. You’re bullying me. This is why I have to leave you.”
End result - same as you’ve tried over and over again. You walk away feeling like [censored], she has validated she is doing the right thing because you’re a monster. She now feels free to bang AP.

How many more times do you want to play the same game? Holding her accountable doesn’t work. Isn’t it time you tried something different? If every instinct you’ve had to hold onto her and convince her has backfired in your face and been wrong, then the opposite (not giving a sh*t and walking away) should be your new normal.

2. Your actions do speak louder than words. Exactly fn right. About time you started responding with actions.

“Have you thought about what I said about getting MC when I get back?”

“I’m not interested in counselling with someone who is going away with their affair partner.”

And before she can say one word to respond:

“I’m going for a run. Cya!”

And leave. No ifs, buts, maybes. If you don’t leave immediately you’ll both slip into the same old pattern.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/05/22 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Can you unpack this a bit more and help me to get it:

“ Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.”

How? When? What?

You are genetically wired to protect your wife and kids. When she's in distress, your first instinct is going to be to try to make things better. When you feel that you're making an effort to relieve her distress, it brings you a feeling of relief.

When you don't respond to her distress, it’s going to make you feel uncomfortable. You're going to get a cortisol dump and it’s going to be very tempting to act to make that bad feeling stop.

You'll tell yourself stories that you're being a bad person, or that you're "pushing her away" to justify trying to relieve your discomfort. "Making things worse" means that you grin and bear it.

You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, she needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.

If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.

If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.

You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel any responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.

Very important: You are not mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.

If she wants to make love to OM in your front yard, you walk past, smile and wave. It just doesn't impact you emotionally.

When she senses that she's losing control over you, she will fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel worse than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.

Often people mistake this fighting on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and NOTHING else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partner and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.

It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You've already proven that you'll save her, like when you helped her find a therapist. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

She needs to fully believe that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return after her sex trip, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your ACTIONS.

Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.

You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) and build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
Rockon, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her affair. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to have her affair.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for awhile.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.

She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, nothing you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.

You need to make things worse before they can get better

Are you willing to do that?

If not, you can expect many more years of the same thing you have now.
I had conversations with the MC I went to. She said that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

She said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC.

I would strongly recommend individual IC and telephone DB coaching as being a much more effective course of action for you.

In this situation that one person is already done there is probably a zero percent success rate for any MC. In addition, I believe that they make the situation worse because they encourage the "standing spouse" to divulge all their thoughts and feelings which comes across as pursuing behavior.

When one person wants out and one person wants to keep things together, overt pursuit is the enemy.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 12:56 PM
LH: this is really good and strong and I believe it. It feels so uncomfortable for sure! My kids are actually doing a good job of this with W.

S23 does not have respect for what W is doing and has disengaged after he told her. Same with D20. She has spoken up courageously and then disengaged. Same with D25.

You are right: action, lifestyle, integrity for me. Talk is cheap. I am engaged in IC and intensive treatment for PTSD. And I am committed to this path. My understanding and buy in of what, how and why are coming.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:03 PM
The MC we have discussed is not actually traditional couples therapy.

This is a description: https://www.theawakespace.com/blog/discernment

It is designed to help a couple gain clarity.

Might be good to have an expectation that A be stopped before going into discernment counselling (DC).
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
The MC we have discussed is not actually traditional couples therapy.
Yeah she has no desire to work on fixing the marriage.
Originally Posted by Rockon
It is designed to help a couple gain clarity.
If you know what you did wrong in the marriage this is a waste of money.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Might be good to have an expectation that A be stopped before going into discernment counselling (DC).
I wouldn't engage in anything accept seeing a lawyer until/if the A stops
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
S23 does not have respect for what W is doing and has disengaged after he told her. Same with D20. She has spoken up courageously and then disengaged. Same with D25.
Yeah this will eventually subside mainly when they see you are ok.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/05/22 01:31 PM
Good Morning Rockon

You are receiving some very good advice. I know how counterintuitive this all seems. Hang in there, and keep moving forward.

D
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Action - 10/05/22 02:01 PM
The discernment MC thing has come up on the board before. My advice is always that if you can temper your expectations and realize she is going to use it to get you on board to the idea of supporting the divorce, then go.

The problem with most LBSs is that they think MC of any type is going to be approached in good faith by the WAS. The WAS almost always had a different agenda IF they agree to go.

Rock, can you have expectations that she will see this as a possible way to get you to go along with the D?
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
The discernment MC thing has come up on the board before. My advice is always that if you can temper your expectations and realize she is going to use it to get you on board to the idea of supporting the divorce, then go.

The problem with most LBSs is that they think MC of any type is going to be approached in good faith by the WAS. The WAS almost always had a different agenda IF they agree to go.

Rock, can you have expectations that she will see this as a possible way to get you to go along with the D?


Very interesting Steve and it’s totally possible. But my instinct is that she is wanting it to be able to explore options and hope with help. She told me she was afraid in fact that doing MC would rush us to a final outcome and she is not ready to give up.

But I am open to exploring alternative approaches if there are better ways to go about exploring hope in reconciliation that are not discernment counselling.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/05/22 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
But my instinct is that she is wanting it to be able to explore options and hope with help.
So do you think her going on vacation with another dude is an option she hopes will help your marriage? If so, WTF????
Originally Posted by Rockon
She told me she was afraid in fact that doing MC would rush us to a final outcome and she is not ready to give up.
So the good news is if she is true to her word and is not ready to give up than MC will help. My MC said she had a 99% success rate when both spouses were trying everything to prevent getting divorced.
Originally Posted by Rockon
But I am open to exploring alternative approaches if there are better ways to go about exploring hope in reconciliation that are not discernment counselling.
I will say it again, the best approach to reconciliation is to go in the opposite direction. Your view on this needs to be "go do your thing, W, do what you need to do in order to find happiness. I'm going to live an amazing life. If you want to be part of it in the future, we'll have to talk about that, but for now I wish you well"

You shouldn't say that to her directly, but everything about the way you react to her and respond to her should say that for you.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Action - 10/05/22 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
The best approach to reconciliation is to go in the opposite direction. Your view on this needs to be "go do your thing, W, do what you need to do in order to find happiness. I'm going to live an amazing life. If you want to be part of it in the future, we'll have to talk about that, but for now I wish you well"

You shouldn't say that to her directly, but everything about the way you react to her and respond to her should say that for you.
Agree. It is about your mindset and your behavior.

Find your happiness (or contentment) without "needing" her to be your partner.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/05/22 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Rockon
But my instinct is that she is wanting it to be able to explore options and hope with help.
So do you think her going on vacation with another dude is an option she hopes will help your marriage?


NO absolutely not I don’t know what she is thinking there and I think she’s a mess and confused but she is responsible for her choices and actions and there are consequences.

If so, WTF????

EXACTLY!!!

Originally Posted by Rockon
She told me she was afraid in fact that doing MC would rush us to a final outcome and she is not ready to give up.
So the good news is if she is true to her word and is not ready to give up than MC will help. My MC said she had a 99% success rate when both spouses were trying everything to prevent getting divorced.
Originally Posted by Rockon
But I am open to exploring alternative approaches if there are better ways to go about exploring hope in reconciliation that are not discernment counselling.
I will say it again, the best approach to reconciliation is to go in the opposite direction. Your view on this needs to be "go do your thing, W, do what you need to do in order to find happiness. I'm going to live an amazing life. If you want to be part of it in the future, we'll have to talk about that, but for now I wish you well"


!!

You shouldn't say that to her directly, but everything about the way you react to her and respond to her should say that for you.

Thank you !
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/05/22 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
NO absolutely not I don’t know what she is thinking there and I think she’s a mess and confused
Why do you think she is a mess? What do you think she is confused about?

Originally Posted by Rockon
She is responsible for her choices and actions and there are consequences.
What are the consequences for this trip?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Action - 10/05/22 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
One mistake many make is letting their spouse back too easy. As you read through everything, come up with your private(ie don't tell W what it will take, rather she will have to tell you) list of unconditionals.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Can you explain a little more what you mean about keeping my list of conditionals for W private, not telling her and her having to tell me?

I’d like to understand these concepts a bit more.

These are in most peoples list:
1) No contact with AP
2) MC
3) Full transparency (Phone/Computer etc)

You should do the work to come up with your own larger list. Then you go about living your amazing life without her. If she comes to you saying she made a horrible mistake, then you agree with her. If she says she wants to move back in, then you let her know that you really like your life now and "Its not that easy". IF she says "I'll do anything" then you ask "like what?" She will rattle off some things. You say "It will take much more than that. I got to go, I am late for something important."

Of course we are putting the cart in front of the horse. Definitely dig deep into the quotes thread and understand the thought processes of PuppyDogTails, ChocholateEyes, RobX ,GucciLoafers, as well as Coach.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Rockon
NO absolutely not I don’t know what she is thinking there and I think she’s a mess and confused
Why do you think she is a mess? What do you think she is confused about?

I think she’s a mess in her response to deep hurts and in consequences of her recent choices and behaviours. And confused in what to do about it - can she save face and deal with disapproval from friends and family and disconnection?

Originally Posted by Rockon
She is responsible for her choices and actions and there are consequences.
What are the consequences for this trip?

I am focusing on my life and moving on - she is getting backlash from people who love and care about her concerning this trip.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/06/22 12:54 AM
WWs are like drug addicts. They’ll do anything to get their next fix including disappointing and hurting the ones they love. She will disassociate with the ones who disapprove of her choices. Find new friends who approve. All part of the script in the WW playbook.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
WWs are like drug addicts. They’ll do anything to get their next fix including disappointing and hurting the ones they love. She will disassociate with the ones who disapprove of her choices. Find new friends who approve. All part of the script in the WW playbook.

Yes I really believe that and I also believe that people can and do change. Not saying a is for the better yet but it seems to me she is somewhere between pre-contemplative and contemplative about making positive change. There was a brief period this summer where she said she was happy but that didn’t seem to last. It will be interesting what she does about it - out of my control - but I have started asking when she tells me a problem of hers, “what are you going to do about it?”

In the meantime, much more relevant to me is “what am I going to do about it?”

Well, just returning home now from an amazing time focusing on serving my parents (driver) and celebrating life with them and my son and taking good care of myself.

Want to stay on track.

Oh by the way, one of our really good solid friends asked me today point blank If I think W is having an A and I said yes. Oooo boy!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/06/22 02:46 AM
Rockon,

I'd be careful on a couple of the responses you mention.

Originally Posted by Rockon
I have started asking when she tells me a problem of hers, “what are you going to do about it?”
Maybe it depends on the tone and inflection, but "what are you going to do about it?” could come across as snide and judgey. The goal is to be empathetic and validation.

Originally Posted by Rockon
Oh by the way, one of our really good solid friends asked me today point blank If I think W is having an A and I said yes. Oooo boy!
Again, careful here on your response. I know it's tempting to punish W and get your story out, but not sure this is going to help a potential reconciliation. The topic of "exposing the affair" is debated on here, and other sites. Some recommend a firm/bold exposure to a close circle of key folks involved in order to "bust the affair". Others say you should keep it completely quiet and not even tell your family or best friend. But not sure anyone recommends stoking the rumor mill around town. If it gets back to her she's likely to be livid, and also if she does decide to come back not only will it make harder to do so, but it'll cause more embarrassment and pain to your W and family.

Originally Posted by Rockon
My kids are actually doing a good job of this with W.

S23 does not have respect for what W is doing and has disengaged after he told her. Same with D20. She has spoken up courageously and then disengaged. Same with D25.
Also I notice you revel a bit in your kids taking your side and losing respect / disengaging with their mom. You are not responsible for their relationship with their mom, and I totally understand the feeling of wanting people to support you and your kids to be on "team dad" when your W is doing bad things secretly, but a note of caution there...their pressure is unlikely to convince her to do the right thing, and even if it does temporarily she'll still be unhappy. You need her to decide on her own, without pressure from you or your kids or anyone else.

LH is right when he says WWs are like drug addicts who will get their fix regardless of whether they hurt the ones they love...this includes their kids. I noticed DnJ commented on your sitch. He recently had his 4-5 years of threads removed, but believe it or not his now-ExW stood up after a nice Thanksgiving meal and told the entire family including their 4 kids - without any advance warning - she was moving out to live with another man and had no interest in DnJ or their 4 children anymore. That she'd deal with the kids if she had to, but just assumed they were no longer part of her life. She didn't just throw away her husband of decades, but any relationship with her children as well. That's an extreme case - probably the worst I've read here - but point is don't bank on your kids having any sway on their mom's decision. She's acting on emotion, not logic, and anyone not aligning with her new world view will likely be disregarded and replaced by someone else who is on board.

Originally Posted by Rockon
Well, just returning home now from an amazing time focusing on serving my parents (driver) and celebrating life with them and my son and taking good care of myself.
That's great. Good for you. Perfect GAL.

Originally Posted by Rockon
In the meantime, much more relevant to me is “what am I going to do about it?”
Yes. That is the question.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 04:02 AM
BL:I really appreciate your input and guidance here.

Yes that is really important about tone and inflection and really instead of what are you going to do about it I am asking More what do you want to do and what would be helpful

And yes I have been very careful and very reluctant to tell anybody. But my counsellor really encouraged me to tell my best friend and I have but I asked him not to even to tell his wife. And then this friend asked me today and I did answer yes. And then finally our pastor that I mentioned. W strongly encouraged me To tell him what I need to tell him. She said he really cares for us and our marriage. It does seem to me that she is asking for help.

Also I regret that my tone and the typed word shows me revelling in my kids taking my side. That is not my intention. Rather I am acknowledging that they are impacted and struggling and not happy with what W is doing. And they are communicating respect and honour to me while also honouring their mom. I am strongly promoting honour And not speaking bad about her.

Again thank you so much.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 10/06/22 05:12 AM
I generally agree with BL42.

You need to tread carefully in what you say, to whom, and avoid trying to use your children as a weapon against her choices.

Let me be really clear … it’s incredibly rare that children will take sides to the extent you think. They tend to love both parents without much judgement. So generally, even if you think they’re taking your side, they will be building resentment against you for putting them in a position where they have to choose (even if they choose you and disapprove of WW’s behaviour).

Also, a lot of kids take both sides - they’ll tell you they hate her, and they’ll tell her the same thing about you. Kids prioritise avoiding conflict at all costs - so they’ll say anything and everything different to both parents if they believe it will mean they can avoid involvement or having to choose sides.

The one thing I will disagree with BL42 on is being empathetic and validating. That’s for someone who has ignored and slowly alienated their spouse to the point they’ve fallen out of love. It’s not really appropriate or helpful to validate a cheater… in fact, it makes things worse.

Anyway - all this is more about her. Keep working on you and getting a life without her - that’s where true peace and happiness will come from.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 06:02 AM
Thanks Kind. Working on it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/06/22 09:03 AM
Yeah you are not listening to the advice here. You are to withdrawal all emotional support. You are not her therapist or her emotional tampon. You are too busy for that $hit. I’m not a fan of validating a wayward either. Especially one who doesn’t even have the decency to hide it.

This behavior may be temporary and maybe not. You view this as bad behavior. She views it as she feels alive again.

I will ask you the question again. You are acting out of fear. What are you of afraid of that you can’t let go?
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/06/22 02:04 PM
Good Morning Rock

BL is spot on. Logic, reason, the Lord, kids, etc. will not turn her around, will not wake her up. In fact, all of that is pressure and she will run in the opposite direction.

Whichever direction her life is headed is on her. Leave it with her!

What I’m referring to is to not manipulate her path. A LBS making personal changes and decisions in an effort to directly affect the spouse’s path usually prolongs the spouse’s journey. At best the efforts is neutral, at worst disastrous. No one is wise enough to see all ends. And you certainly do not want the responsibility of her outcome heaped upon you.

The LBS let’s go, stands, and moves forward. Your decisions are to be best for your interests; you are the most important person in this equation. Oftentimes the LBS pretzels themselves and will walk on eggshells in an effort to smooth things over and try to get the situation back to what it once was. Best to focus on you. Let go, live your life, and let her run to catch up. If that is indeed what comes to pass.

You are just starting out, and I get it, you want to do something to move this forward. Realize doing nothing is doing something. Being still is still moving forward. When you’re calm and at peace, answers will reveal themselves.

You have been given the gift of time. Use it well.

In my opinion you are doing excellent. Posting lots, listening, seeking advice and wisdom before deciding anything and/or putting decisions into action.

The future is unknown and unwritten. Have faith my friend.

D
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Yeah you are not listening to the advice here. You are to withdrawal all emotional support. You are not her therapist or her emotional tampon. You are too busy for that $hit. I’m not a fan of validating a wayward either. Especially one who doesn’t even have the decency to hide it.



OK maybe I’m not listening or hearing/understanding in some ways but I’m really trying to. And yes I am too busy for that [censored]. And I am not into validating waywardness but when she is expressing regrets and trauma and distress/worries about our kids and grandchild I do care!


This behavior may be temporary and maybe not. You view this as bad behavior. She views it as she feels alive again.

Ya I don’t think she’s really viewing it that way so much anymore from what she’s telling me and others but I’m not her.

I will ask you the question again. You are acting out of fear. What are you of afraid of that you can’t let go?

Well I’m afraid of her dying and of tragedy happening to a couple of my kids and grandchild. I am working on these fears with God, in therapy and with good friends and I am healing. And I am working at being an excellent father, grandfather and I want to co parent well with W in ways that it is important to collaborate. It all in really a lot for me to handle and I can’t bear it all on my own. Working through grief as well.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Good Morning Rock

BL is spot on. Logic, reason, the Lord, kids, etc. will not turn her around, will not wake her up. In fact, all of that is pressure and she will run in the opposite direction.

Whichever direction her life is headed is on her. Leave it with her!

What I’m referring to is to not manipulate her path. A LBS making personal changes and decisions in an effort to directly affect the spouse’s path usually prolongs the spouse’s journey. At best the efforts is neutral, at worst disastrous. No one is wise enough to see all ends. And you certainly do not want the responsibility of her outcome heaped upon you.

The LBS let’s go, stands, and moves forward. Your decisions are to be best for your interests; you are the most important person in this equation. Oftentimes the LBS pretzels themselves and will walk on eggshells in an effort to smooth things over and try to get the situation back to what it once was. Best to focus on you. Let go, live your life, and let her run to catch up. If that is indeed what comes to pass.

I have been making changes in this area -
Was definitely walking on eggshells for awhile but I’ve stopped that.

You are just starting out, and I get it, you want to do something to move this forward. Realize doing nothing is doing something. Being still is still moving forward. When you’re calm and at peace, answers will reveal themselves.

Needed to hear this.

You have been given the gift of time. Use it well.

And this.

In my opinion you are doing excellent. Posting lots, listening, seeking advice and wisdom before deciding anything and/or putting decisions into action.

Ooooh man. Thanks. This is really painful.

The future is unknown and unwritten. Have faith my friend.

D
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 02:59 PM
I have been making changes in this area -
Was definitely walking on eggshells for awhile but I’ve stopped that

Needed to hear this
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Action - 10/06/22 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Originally Posted by LH19
Yeah you are not listening to the advice here. You are to withdrawal all emotional support. You are not her therapist or her emotional tampon. You are too busy for that $hit. I’m not a fan of validating a wayward either. Especially one who doesn’t even have the decency to hide it.



OK maybe I’m not listening or hearing/understanding in some ways but I’m really trying to. And yes I am too busy for that [censored]. And I am not into validating waywardness but when she is expressing regrets and trauma and distress/worries about our kids and grandchild I do care!


This behavior may be temporary and maybe not. You view this as bad behavior. She views it as she feels alive again.

Ya I don’t think she’s really viewing it that way so much anymore from what she’s telling me and others but I’m not her.

I will ask you the question again. You are acting out of fear. What are you of afraid of that you can’t let go?

Well I’m afraid of her dying and of tragedy happening to a couple of my kids and grandchild. I am working on these fears with God, in therapy and with good friends and I am healing. And I am working at being an excellent father, grandfather and I want to co parent well with W in ways that it is important to collaborate. It all in really a lot for me to handle and I can’t bear it all on my own. Working through grief as well.


How much of that can you control ??

What aspects can you control ?

How much is unwarranted fear ??

How much is from guilt ??
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 03:24 PM
Mach: vital questions!

Right now for me going through exposure therapy to settle my nervous system from post trauma stress injuries. And learning skills through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is starting to help.

I control me - that’s it!

At this point guilt has really diminished as a factor for me - thankfully. It was torture (unwarranted guilt) with respect to the traumas I’ve been exposed to.

And while I control me, I recognize that I have power to act in ways that are important to me and line up with my core values and that is the same for my loved ones as well.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Action - 10/06/22 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Rock
Well I’m afraid of her dying and of tragedy happening to a couple of my kids and grandchild. I am working on these fears with God, in therapy and with good friends and I am healing.

Go easy on yourself....it takes time. Your situation is still raw to you.

Your fears....they are just that...

Yours....

I would bet that not too long ago...your worst fear was that your marriage would end one day, and she would leave.....

Guess what, it's happened, and you are still here....

Fears won't kill you...

However they will paralyze you...

Work through them , because typically once you stare them down....they ain't so scary....




Originally Posted by Rock
And I am working at being an excellent father, grandfather and I want to co parent well with W in ways that it is important to collaborate. It all in really a lot for me to handle and I can’t bear it all on my own. Working through grief as well.

You aren't alone....

You have a group of guys behind you every step so far....just because you haven't seen us doesn't mean we aren't real...

Best part is, that we have ALL felt your pain....

How about this though....

You focus on being the best Rockon that you can be for yourself...

And I guarantee you that being the best Father, Grandfather, and one day...spouse that you can be, will follow....

Pinpoint your focus with healing and you will pinpoint your results....

NOTHING has to happen today.....

Stop trying to force it.....
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/06/22 04:35 PM
Mach :

“ Best part is, that we have ALL felt your pain....

How about this though....

You focus on being the best Rockon that you can be for yourself...

And I guarantee you that being the best Father, Grandfather, and one day...spouse that you can be, will follow....

Pinpoint your focus with healing and you will pinpoint your results....

NOTHING has to happen today.....

Stop trying to force it....”

GOLD ☺️
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Action - 10/06/22 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
What are you of afraid of that you can’t let go?
Originally Posted by Rockon
Well I’m afraid of her dying and ....
You need to go deeper. What you fear could be sub-conscience, possibly from your early childhood. We are all different, but you have work to do to determine the answer to this question.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 12:47 AM
Had a great day - I’m back home

Spent some quality time with youngest D last night and this morning. Attended therapy. Did some work on the house. Went deeper with pastor and walked with him and played with his dog at the beach.

Got home had something to eat. I know W comes over often on Thursday after work because she has a workout in the neighborhood. So I ducked outta there before she arrived and noticed her pull into our driveway as i turned the corner. I went to a park and am taking it easy before volleyball tonight.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/07/22 01:09 AM
I would consider setting up some boundaries regarding her dropping by anytime she pleases.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
I would consider setting up some boundaries regarding her dropping by anytime she pleases.

Definitely have considered it but so far hasn’t been a problem and it is often a good way for her to connect with youngest D. I am getting busy and being out doing stuff at those times.

And I’ve been reading DR chapter on specific goals . I actually want W to experience peace and order when she approaches our home instead of stress and chaos. It’s a good contrast to how things used to be and most importantly, working much better for me! And apparently a good contrast to how her life is away from me as well.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 05:05 AM
I’m in a lot of emotional pain that’s for sure!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/07/22 05:37 AM
Originally Posted by Rockon
I’m in a lot of emotional pain that’s for sure!
I know man. It's incredibly difficult. Hang in though...you WILL get through this.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/07/22 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Originally Posted by LH19
I would consider setting up some boundaries regarding her dropping by anytime she pleases.

Definitely have considered it but so far hasn’t been a problem and it is often a good way for her to connect with youngest D. I am getting busy and being out doing stuff at those times.

And I’ve been reading DR chapter on specific goals . I actually want W to experience peace and order when she approaches our home instead of stress and chaos. It’s a good contrast to how things used to be and most importantly, working much better for me! And apparently a good contrast to how her life is away from me as well.
Well it falls more into the respect and common courtesy category. You will find as you go do your path that this is about learning to love and value yourself and walk away from things that don’t work for you. Unfortunately life, to grow, you typically have to get dragged through the mud first. The universe will present you with people and circumstances to show you where you are not free.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 03:18 PM
Gentlemen, I am losing the edge this morning and I need help. Reaching out for support I will also call my pastor and maybe some crisis counselling too taking deep breaths going for walks.

W leaves Sunday and I can’t believe her audacity, rebellion, disrespect, dishonour. I am beside myself with rage and want significant harm to AP, impulse to contact him and another OM I know is involved and assert some alpha intimidation.

Help!

I don’t know what to do!!
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 03:22 PM
The grief and rage is overwhelming and my youngest D is overwhelmed and my eldest D is also distressed.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/07/22 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Gentlemen, I am losing the edge this morning and I need help. Reaching out for support I will also call my pastor and maybe some crisis counselling too taking deep breaths going for walks.
Go for run. That I found was best for my mental health.
Originally Posted by Rockon
W leaves Sunday and I can’t believe her audacity, rebellion, disrespect, dishonour.
Yeah the rebellion and disrespect is unfathomable.
Originally Posted by Rockon
I am beside myself with rage and want significant harm to AP, impulse to contact him and another OM I know is involved and assert some alpha intimidation.
So a true Alpha move would be to tell your W to have fun and you will have her bags packed and will be hearing from your lawyer when she gets back.
Originally Posted by Rockon
I don’t know what to do!!
Breathe. Take it one minute at a time.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/07/22 04:11 PM
The biggest problem for most people in this scenario is the feeling that you've lost control over your life and your future.

For years you've lived by a certain set of rules -- that if you're a good husband, you can count on your wife supporting you.

Because you're married, your relationship is a source of stability in your life.

etc. etc.

When that's suddenly ripped away and you can't understand (a) what you did to make it fall apart so suddenly, (b) why the person who used to be your partner seems to have had a complete personality change and (c) why you can't seem to do anything to make it better, it is totally destabilizing.

Your brain doesn't like this instability, and it doesn't like the unavailability of a remedy at all! Its panic-inducing.

Because of this lack of control and the fear that comes with it, you desperately, desperately want to regain your feeling of control and stability.

Your brain convinces you that the quickest way to do that is to get your wayward spouse back. If you can do that, then all the old rules still apply and there was just a temporary blip on the radar.

As a result, your brain will *compel* you to want to pursue, and everything else is a justification to allow you to do what you want.

Step back and look at some of these situations -- a person's wife cheats on them for years with several OM's. If that comes to light, a rational person would say "this woman has issues" and head the other way right? But in reality, we see time and again that the LBS convinces themselves that this cheater is the best person in the world, and they want to have them back more than anything.

WHY? Because the loss of control is devastating. The loss of control is something our brains can't process or tolerate.

If you see this in yourself, that you have lost your feeling of control, then you can come to the conclusion that this is what you need to deal with, not what your wife does or doesn't do.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 04:45 PM
LH: Right. I need to focus and take control of me. Just got back from a walk (that helped) and reading your words and letting them sink in I am
Calming and resetting.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/07/22 05:08 PM
Good Morning Rock


Breathe.



Just breathe.



One day at a time. One hour at a time. Heck, sometimes it will be one minute at a time. Lord knows I endured the minutes languishing in their passing.

It depends on the person as to what works best. Well, in actuality it is “when” works best. At times physical activity can be very helpful, and other times sitting and thinking is needed, and yet other times we just cry.

Generally, to work through our anger, physical activity works well. Sweat it out! Go for a run, do some yard work, let loose on a punching bag, etc.

Anger is perfectly normal. You have experienced a loss and will progress through the stages of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. These stages are not linear, and do not have well defined delimitation between them. We can, and will, move back and forth between various stages, especially as new things are revealed.

That is a critical understanding. Denial is one’s psyche’s protective mechanism from such a hurt that it would severally overload or damage us. Our mind simply puts it off, ignores it, denies it, until we heal enough to be able to process that loss/hurt.

In a situation there are many many items and losses, and only a few at a time are revealed. As the days, weeks, and months progress more and more things will come to the surface, will come out of the fog of denial, and you will be angry, and barging, and be depressed, and accept each and every one of these. By the way, as you experience more and more of these you become better and better at working through it. And the best way through the bog is to keep moving forward through all the brambles. It is a heck of a slog. However, when you look back it is quite amazing what you will have learnt and the hard earned wisdom gain.

You can only control you. Your thought, actions, and reactions. These three things can and do influence your emotions, beliefs, and such. You cannot directly control your feelings, but you can influence them; help guide them and yourself to resolution and peace.

A good run or some such will help take your mind’s focus off of things. This is your conscience and controlled focus I’m talking about. Your subconscious mind will still be working away on various things; like it always does. And eventually answers will come, and you cannot greatly speed that process up. It just takes time.

Thoughts are the other area of direct control. They have an incredible influence upon ourselves. Work to limit the number of cheese-less tunnels you go down. We all need to follow some rabbit holes, so don’t worry about a few odd detours.

Everyone requires a certain amount of understanding before they can let go. You are doing perfectly fine my friend. Even though it feels very much out of control. (((Hug)))

Stay strong. Focus on you.

D
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Action - 10/07/22 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So a true Alpha move would be to tell your W to have fun and you will have her bags packed and will be hearing from your lawyer when she gets back.
This is one of the best things you can do. Most newbies do not understand why this is so important.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Action - 10/07/22 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
...impulse to contact him and another OM ...
They are not the problem.

Your W has lost respect and in turn, her attraction to you. With that said, you should command respect from her and others. A woman can not love a man she does not respect.

Take your focus off of her and what she is doing and focus on you. Change your habits and behaviors to improve your attractiveness.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: Action - 10/07/22 09:52 PM
It’s super, super tough. And it’s a complete emotional roller coaster. One day you’re fine and strong and positive, the next you’re broken when nothing has changed from the day before.

That’s how it’s going to be for a little while.

Well done on coming to the forum to get support when it’s hard. Never reach out to her - always come here first.

Like LH said, hard physical exercise is a great way to reset when the emotions suddenly overwhelm.

It will get better. We’ve all been there.

I think you’re progressing better than most who come here, especially given how new your situation is… don’t throw that all away.

Always listen to your brain, never to your emotions.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/07/22 10:39 PM
R2C, Kind: thanks doing a lot better this afternoon. Got some good exercise, went to mens health program, some good nutrition plenty of H20, then been having some relaxation which has been really good.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/08/22 02:37 AM
W went over to Pastors house to meet with him and his wife tonight on her own - she didn’t tell
me - Pastor did. I’m thankful she followed through and went for her that are seasoned wise compassionate, and full of integrity. I’m going to play hockey.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/08/22 02:38 AM
*they* are seasoned…
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/08/22 03:48 AM
Hello Rock

W’s visit to Pastor and his wife is interesting. However, keep your expectations dialled to zero. Unmet expectations lead to resentment.

Expectation and hope are both forms of desires. The difference being hope is timeless, while expectation has an associated timeline. Placing a deadline upon hope will do just that; gives it a time to die.

Hope can be a formidable source of strength. And it is possible to become stuck. Hope, yet keep moving forward.

I’d recommend you keep the fact that Pastor informed you of W’s visit to yourself. If she is reaching out, she needs to feel safe.

How was the hockey game?

D
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/08/22 07:25 AM
Hockey game was fantastic scored a goal in the best goalie in the league youngest D was there to watch. I’m flying!
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/08/22 12:56 PM
Ok thinking of telling W this before her trip:


"You going overseas on a trip with the guy you are having an affair with makes it clear you are wanting to invest time, money and energy in that relationship. I am heart broken that our marriage has got to the point where you are more interested in someone else than me. I am committed to our marriage and working with you to get back what we have lost and creating something far more incredible than either of us ever imagined.

I love you deeply and want the best for you.

I need to also treat myself with respect and honour my own boundaries. I cannot work on our marriage alone, and if your priority is to explore other relationships outside our marriage before investing in our relationship, then I won't wait around as your back up. I deserve more than that for my future.

I may not be perfect, but I love you. You can choose him, or you can choose me. You are free. However, you can't choose both.

One of the things I require for someone to be in an intimate relationship with me is monogamy. If you want an intimate relationship with me, then I require that from you. If you don't want that with me anymore, it will hurt me to the core of my being. I love you. I'll grieve deeply.

And, I will let you go, and move on. There are other women who would choose to be monogamous with me. I'll be okay. I'm a great guy with friends and family who love me, I'm growing and learning all the time, and I've got an exciting life ahead of me.

This is the moment when you choose if you want to be part of it."

Thoughts?
Posted By: BL42 Re: Action - 10/08/22 01:18 PM
Rockon,

Way too wordy. Sounds like an plea in which you're trying to use emotion and logic her back. I know it's tough, trust me, but you need to drop the pressure and pursuit.

What about "I know what this trip is about, and refuse to share my wife with another man. I'm changing the locks while you're gone. Here's my L's info."
Posted By: LH19 Re: Action - 10/08/22 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Rockon
Ok thinking of telling W this before her trip:


"You going overseas on a trip with the guy you are having an affair with makes it clear you are wanting to invest time, money and energy in that relationship. I am heart broken that our marriage has got to the point where you are more interested in someone else than me. I am committed to our marriage and working with you to get back what we have lost and creating something far more incredible than either of us ever imagined.

I love you deeply and want the best for you.

I need to also treat myself with respect and honour my own boundaries. I cannot work on our marriage alone, and if your priority is to explore other relationships outside our marriage before investing in our relationship, then I won't wait around as your back up. I deserve more than that for my future.

I may not be perfect, but I love you. You can choose him, or you can choose me. You are free. However, you can't choose both.

One of the things I require for someone to be in an intimate relationship with me is monogamy. If you want an intimate relationship with me, then I require that from you. If you don't want that with me anymore, it will hurt me to the core of my being. I love you. I'll grieve deeply.

And, I will let you go, and move on. There are other women who would choose to be monogamous with me. I'll be okay. I'm a great guy with friends and family who love me, I'm growing and learning all the time, and I've got an exciting life ahead of me.

This is the moment when you choose if you want to be part of it."

Thoughts?

Ok let’s say you give her the above letter and she goes anyway. Than what? Because that’s what she is going to do?
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/08/22 02:10 PM
Good Morning Rock

Do not sent her the letter. She already knows how you feel. You’ve said all this before, no need to repeat it to her.

The last line, the ultimatum - “This is the moment when you choose if you want to be part of it.” - will not work. It will not snap her awake and stop her from this path. It will likely propel her justification for going. Her straying from her vows, marriage, and commitment took time to come about and will take time to turn around too.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/08/22 02:12 PM
It’s time to start a new thread.

Please link to it.
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/09/22 04:16 AM
D, LH et al:
I didn’t send the note and there she goes. I have already as you say clearly communicated what I needed to with words. I’m sad. But encouraged that I’m going to be ok. Now to live life well.


Ok I’m really sad.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Action - 10/09/22 04:23 AM
Good for you. That is a good step towards detaching.

Hang in there Rock. Perfectly normal to be sad.

D
Posted By: Rockon Re: Action - 10/09/22 04:24 AM
Here’s next thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2938303&#Post2938303
© DivorceBusting.com