First off, I want to thank everyone here who has shared their stories and given their time to help people work through their relationship issues. The information here has been invaluable in helping me navigate through my situation.
I came across this forum after reading Michele’s book about a month and a half ago. I’ve read through a bunch of the threads and have tried to implement as much as possible. Here’s my story.
Married almost 18 years, together for 22. High school sweethearts. Have a S19, D17 and D4 (adopted), and we also have a 6yr old who we were foster parents for who does not live with us, but we still support a bunch. My story is similar to many on here, married young, W has a bunch of childhood trauma, I did not provide enough emotional support to W, slowly drifted apart just going through the motions of life, I didn’t recognize the severity of the red flags and blew them off, W finally had enough of living in a house of negativity and feeling unloved.
The last straw for W came in late May. I was getting ready to go out of state to work for a few months. Family was going to meet me for the last half of the trip. Two weeks before leaving, W said we need MC or we’re getting divorced. I was trying to get the house ready (painting, fixing things, etc) so they would be set while I was gone. I have never been against MC, and actually welcomed it, but I thought it was too short notice to start something and said we could do it when I got back in 2 months. In hindsight, that was where things ended. I didn’t know it at the time, but per my D17, as soon as I left the state, W started with MLC/WAW type behavior. Staying out until 4-6 am, lost a bunch of weight, not eating, shopping, ignoring the kids, on phone 24/7, etc. D17 basically was playing mom for D4. I was told by W that everything was peaceful without my negativity. She felt that way, but rest of family did not.
In early July, family came to visit and this was when I first realized things were serious. W would not even hug me when I she first got there. She remained distant for the 2 weeks they were there creating an awkward situation I did not yet understand. When we got back home, July 22, got the “official” BD. ILYBINILWY, we need to figure out a separation, etc. I made the common mistakes at first (cried for 3 days, begging, trying to nice her back, promises, etc) not knowing it was way too late for that and counterproductive. Thankfully I found DR book pretty shortly after that and was able to correct some things. My main purpose for adding my story here is to get help with certain things that come up and as a source of support since the few I’ve reached out to don’t really understand the DB process.
Here’s a little more info about my sitch:
*W had previous PA about 12 yrs ago. We never properly moved on from it. W is currently texting 247 with a male “friend” who has been out of the picture since the time of previous PA. He was not the AP previously, but at the time I believed she had feelings for him. Part of moving on from previous PA was NC with this guy also. I’m assuming worst obviously and am convinced there’s at least an EA. She does not hide that they text all day and knows I know who it is.
*I would describe our situation as IHS. She wants to move out but can’t afford it. She has pretty low paying job. Sleep in same bed still. Only sex since May has been oral twice a few weeks ago. I recently set a boundary against it stating that I am not comfortable with that with someone who does not have an emotional connection with me.
*Divorce is difficult as a buyout refi would almost double my mortgage. She asked for legal separation/divorce in late July, but to date has done nothing to push for it. She can’t afford the house on her own. Neither of us want to sell as this is our kids’ home and moving out of a large home to each have to pay more for small apartments does not make sense.
*I’ve been working on improving myself as I had basically lost my identity over the years while thinking I was doing the right thing for my family (cooking, cleaning, paying bills, working a bunch, fixing house, etc.) Unfortunately I neglected everyone’s emotional needs while taking care of their physical ones. My GAL has been working out a lot, which actually started prior to BD, but was accelerated after, reconnecting with old friends, becoming way more social at work and with family/friends, spending time with kids, dressing better and trying to live with confidence.
*I’ve been in IC for 2 months. Not very helpful, but I’m on several waitlists. Was supposed to be MC. W went first one. I went to fix M, she went to help with separation. She felt guilted into agreeing to work on M and never went back.
*S19 and D17 know everything that is/has happened. Not ideal, and I’m trying to keep things vague as possible for them, but I thought it was necessary for them to understand what was actually happening instead of being confused. D17 reached out to me first after researching MLC while I was gone. They fully understand my role in leading up to this and do not view W with any ill will.
There’s a bunch more stuff to add to this, but it feels like a good start. The things I am currently struggling with are:
*How to detach while living with IHS. D17 has soccer games twice a week that we attend together. W gets upset when I “ignore” her. I try to give short answers, I don’t call/text unless family related, and I validate when she is upset. We have not had a single argument since BD. W gets upset at my lack of communication with things, which has been intentional. The first few weeks after BD, she referred to me as her best friend and it felt that way for a bit. I learned about detachment and she caught on immediately. I think it was too drastic a transition. One day BFF’s, next day barely talking. She blamed my IC, but it was me working on detachment. It’s just hard to figure out how much communication is too much when you live together and basically have to talk to each other a lot of the time.
*Validation without sounding robotic. I’ve read the validation thread several times, but it’s hard not to repeat phrases. W has called me out for it and sometimes finishes my sentences.
*W constantly asks for things from me. Getting something at the store, driving with her somewhere, making her a sandwich, etc. She hasn’t done her own laundry in 2 months but doesn’t ask me to do that and I said I wasn’t going to anymore. Do I just politely refuse these things regardless of her reaction? Just a few at a time until I’m not doing anymore?
Any advice through this process would be greatly appreciated. It’s tough, but it’s helpful knowing people have gone through similar situations and made it out okay. Thank you!
Hey DW....
I saw you reading yesterday....
I'm gonna start with Cadet's welcome thread. I know it's stickied at the top, yet this feels a little more personal....
I will be back around....
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmand Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
*W had previous PA about 12 yrs ago. We never properly moved on from it. W is currently texting 247 with a male “friend” who has been out of the picture since the time of previous PA. He was not the AP previously, but at the time I believed she had feelings for him. Part of moving on from previous PA was NC with this guy also. I’m assuming worst obviously and am convinced there’s at least an EA. She does not hide that they text all day and knows I know who it is.
This makes me curious...
Maybe give me some background on that...
How you worked through that, or didn't work through that...
*I would describe our situation as IHS. She wants to move out but can’t afford it. She has pretty low paying job. Sleep in same bed still. Only sex since May has been oral twice a few weeks ago. I recently set a boundary against it stating that I am not comfortable with that with someone who does not have an emotional connection with me.
What was the boundary ?
What wording did you use ?
Just curious what that looked like....
*Divorce is difficult as a buyout refi would almost double my mortgage. She asked for legal separation/divorce in late July, but to date has done nothing to push for it. She can’t afford the house on her own. Neither of us want to sell as this is our kids’ home and moving out of a large home to each have to pay more for small apartments does not make sense.
That's pretty typical. It makes for some interesting times for sure.
That seems to be the standard catalyst for an in home situation.
IF you were make a plan to change that, what would that look like ?
*I’ve been working on improving myself as I had basically lost my identity over the years while thinking I was doing the right thing for my family (cooking, cleaning, paying bills, working a bunch, fixing house, etc.) Unfortunately I neglected everyone’s emotional needs while taking care of their physical ones. My GAL has been working out a lot, which actually started prior to BD, but was accelerated after, reconnecting with old friends, becoming way more social at work and with family/friends, spending time with kids, dressing better and trying to live with confidence.
What would you have changed....???
Why would you have changed it ??
*I’ve been in IC for 2 months. Not very helpful, but I’m on several waitlists. Was supposed to be MC. W went first one. I went to fix M, she went to help with separation. She felt guilted into agreeing to work on M and never went back.
Different goals, different expectations....
What are you hoping to work through with an IC ?
*S19 and D17 know everything that is/has happened. Not ideal, and I’m trying to keep things vague as possible for them, but I thought it was necessary for them to understand what was actually happening instead of being confused. D17 reached out to me first after researching MLC while I was gone. They fully understand my role in leading up to this and do not view W with any ill will.*How to detach while living with IHS. D17 has soccer games twice a week that we attend together. W gets upset when I “ignore” her. I try to give short answers, I don’t call/text unless family related, and I validate when she is upset. We have not had a single argument since BD. W gets upset at my lack of communication with things, which has been intentional. The first few weeks after BD, she referred to me as her best friend and it felt that way for a bit. I learned about detachment and she caught on immediately. I think it was too drastic a transition. One day BFF’s, next day barely talking. She blamed my IC, but it was me working on detachment. It’s just hard to figure out how much communication is too much when you live together and basically have to talk to each other a lot of the time.
I always tried to act...
Aloof, yet available
D, it kinda sounds like she found and has read your DB playbook, or possibly one of your kiddos has clued her into MLC and what that entails....
Almost as if she is one step ahead of you in this...
Be sure to keep your reading material close, and your internet activity even closer to you. Clear history, delete and sites that you have visited.
You wouldn't be the first person that has posted here to have their spouse 'find' them and use it against them.
Be careful with it...
Also be careful with the information that is being passed between you and the kiddos....
Your job isn't to facilitate their relationship, your job is to not damage it. It has to be formed by them...
*Validation without sounding robotic. I’ve read the validation thread several times, but it’s hard not to repeat phrases. W has called me out for it and sometimes finishes my sentences.
Yep, it all feels fake...even to the LBS...
Get creative with validation. Most people don't desire to be 'right', they just want to be heard...
Listen without defending, and speak without offending...
You aren't gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into...
You are gonna to be mocked when you do this. No matter what way you go, it will be wrong in her eyes. Years of anger and resentment have built up inside of her, and it is just beginning to come out.
It doesn't make any of it true, unless you believe it to be true.
There are typically 3 sides to every story. Yours, Hers, and somewhere in the middle is where the truth usually lies....
She is going to do everything imaginable to convince you and everyone around her, that her side is the absolute truth.
She will try to gaslight you into thinking that you are the crazy one...
I'm gonna start a pool of how long it takes before you hear "well, are you perfect now"....
Takers ?
Don't buy it, do you.
Nothing less and nothing more for now.
*W constantly asks for things from me. Getting something at the store, driving with her somewhere, making her a sandwich, etc. She hasn’t done her own laundry in 2 months but doesn’t ask me to do that and I said I wasn’t going to anymore. Do I just politely refuse these things regardless of her reaction? Just a few at a time until I’m not doing anymore?
Uhm...
Didn't she "fire" you from that job ?
I'm not so sure that you can "chore" your way back into this marriage. However I think that you know that....
Keep reading those links....
Keep asking questions...
More later.....
There’s a bunch more stuff to add to this, but it feels like a good start. The things I am currently struggling with are:
*How to detach while living with IHS. D17 has soccer games twice a week that we attend together. W gets upset when I “ignore” her. I try to give short answers, I don’t call/text unless family related, and I validate when she is upset. We have not had a single argument since BD. W gets upset at my lack of communication with things, which has been intentional. The first few weeks after BD, she referred to me as her best friend and it felt that way for a bit. I learned about detachment and she caught on immediately. I think it was too drastic a transition. One day BFF’s, next day barely talking. She blamed my IC, but it was me working on detachment. It’s just hard to figure out how much communication is too much when you live together and basically have to talk to each other a lot of the time.
*Validation without sounding robotic. I’ve read the validation thread several times, but it’s hard not to repeat phrases. W has called me out for it and sometimes finishes my sentences.
*W constantly asks for things from me. Getting something at the store, driving with her somewhere, making her a sandwich, etc. She hasn’t done her own laundry in 2 months but doesn’t ask me to do that and I said I wasn’t going to anymore. Do I just politely refuse these things regardless of her reaction? Just a few at a time until I’m not doing anymore?
Any advice through this process would be greatly appreciated. It’s tough, but it’s helpful knowing people have gone through similar situations and made it out okay. Thank you!
DW, sorry you're going through this. It [censored] I know. First, asking to start MC until you guy back was not a mistake. Likely she was already going WW, and wanted to use MC to ease you into the idea. Its a very common tale. Very few WAS that suggest MC are in it to fix things.
Detaching is never an easy thing. For you or her. She will buck you trying to detach because she loses her plan B. That's right, even as a WAS and probably a WW, she still wants you at arms length in case her new plans don't work out. Almost all WASs use their LBS as a safety net. Especially since she, in your words, can't afford her own place and doesn't make much money. So she will cake eat and ride daddy's (that's you) gravy train to support her girls gone wild act sad long as she can. So you start to detach and she guess "whoa there fella, get back here!!"
And she sounds pretty savvy because she is calling you out on the validation. However, that doesn't mean you stop. Both detaching and validating have a simple truth....."Practice makes perfect." So stop using canned responses and really try to understand her feelings. Then validate them. "I feel trapped in this marriage." Response: "Wow, I had no idea it was that bad for you. That has to be a terrible feeling." The suggested responses are simply examples. Quoting them without sincerity or feeling will be sniffed out by the savvy WASs. And detachment is not ignoring. If you're ignoring her you're doing it wrong. Look at it more as just not being the one to initiate interaction. And when she does, interact for a short time, then have places to be and things to do.
Practice. Practice. Practice.
As far as doing things for her. Here's a question: Do you want her to respect you, or to be your friend? Being a friend to someone you want more with [censored]! And will cause you to behave it was that do not command respect. Most LBS would rather be liked than respected. Which is why there are so many divorces. So stop doing those things. "Can you stop by the store and get me X." "No I don't have time for that." "Can you make me a sandwich?" "No, you can make your own sandwich." "Can you drive me to Y?" "No, that's something a husband does for a wife and you're are firing me as your husband."
She will get upset. She will get angry. She may not even like you for it. But she will respect you.
Glad you found us. Keep the questions coming.
*Validation without sounding robotic. I’ve read the validation thread several times, but it’s hard not to repeat phrases. W has called me out for it and sometimes finishes my sentences.
I don't have to say much with my lady. As long as I focus on listening and understanding how she is feeling, that is enough for emotional validation. I make sure I am aware of my body language, eye contact, facial expressions ect...Pretty much give her my full attention.
At your stage, you can test how much STFU you need. Study her non verbal communication as if she is the most interesting person on the planet. (Do this with everyone you interact with as well).
Enjoy the ride.
Mach -
*This makes me curious...
Maybe give me some background on that...
How you worked through that, or didn't work through that...
We were basically dealing with the same issues then as now. I wasn't attentive to her needs and she met those needs elsewhere. She was partying a lot with a close friend dealing with her own relationship problems. The AP was in the small group of people she got close with that hung out at a local bar. The current likely AP was also in that group. Everything now is exactly the same, including the local bar. I'm not convinced there is a PA, but definitely an EA, not that it really matters. The last PA I found out about after red flags caused me to search her phone. She admitted to everything and I stayed with my sister for a few weeks. W cut off all talks with AP and the new likely AP and we just moved on. No MC, no real talks about it, no real remorse, I never realized my contribution to the situation, we just basically ignored it. I was about 25 at the time and I guess I was just embarrassed and didn't know any better.
What was the boundary ?
What wording did you use ?
Just curious what that looked like....
W gave a hypothetical (she loves those) about I would have sex with her if she asked. I said something similar to "I would not have sex with someone that does not have an emotional connection with me." She seemed surprised by my answer because previously I had answered differently. We had previously talked about no strings attached sex to meet our needs. Her friend told her not to because I'd go crazy (which makes no sense to me, but oh well). My response then was if she wasn't comfortable with it then we shouldn't.
That's pretty typical. It makes for some interesting times for sure.
That seems to be the standard catalyst for an in home situation.
IF you were make a plan to change that, what would that look like ?
IF I made a different plan, it'd have to be to sell the house I think. I haven't really figured out a good solution. Talked to the bank about refi options, plan on talking to a L just to get some more info about my options and their recommendations. I'm still working through this part.
What would you have changed....???
Why would you have changed it ??
As far as what I would have changed regarding losing my identity, I would have stayed connected with friends, engaged in activities that did not include my wife, invited my own friends to the house (my "friends" basically became whoever my wife was friends with), stayed in better shape, found more hobbies, worked on the relationships with my kids, worked less, focused less on making money and more on family/friend time, and many other things. I'd have changed this because I feel like that was the single biggest reason my marriage failed. I was going through the motions of life unhappy, and being in denial about it. Nobody wants to be around a negative homebody, even if they cook and clean.
What are you hoping to work through with an IC ?
My goals seem to change as I gain understanding of things. First it was fixing my marriage, then understanding my own issues, which I still think is important. Lately he just asks for a recap of the week and tells me I'm doing good staying calm and to wait it out. I already know that though. I go to IC today and plan on focusing on just bettering myself and developing a positive, confident, motivated mindset. I don't feel like I'm getting good advice regarding the M when I seek it there. E.g. I was told to do weekly check-ins to see if my changes were being noticed and how W felt about them. Did it once against the recommendations here, didn't work, decided not to take anymore advice and started searching for new IC.
Be sure to keep your reading material close, and your internet activity even closer to you. Clear history, delete and sites that you have visited.
I appreciate the feedback here. I am careful with things, and W is so in her own world I don't think she cares. But I know I must stay on alert. My D mentioned MLC to my wife while I was gone and W got angry with her. To my knowledge it hasn't been brought up since. The kids don’t talk with W about what’s going on and she hasn’t asked them. Only in the past week or so has W even bothered talking to them at all.
I'm gonna start a pool of how long it takes before you hear "well, are you perfect now"....
Lol, I've already heard this dozens of times. "Tell your next wife to thank me for fixing you", “Must be nice that you can ruin my life but now you’re perfect”, etc.
And she sounds pretty savvy because she is calling you out on the validation. However, that doesn't mean you stop. Both detaching and validating have a simple truth....."Practice makes perfect." So stop using canned responses and really try to understand her feelings. Then validate them. "I feel trapped in this marriage." Response: "Wow, I had no idea it was that bad for you. That has to be a terrible feeling." The suggested responses are simply examples. Quoting them without sincerity or feeling will be sniffed out by the savvy WASs. And detachment is not ignoring. If you're ignoring her you're doing it wrong. Look at it more as just not being the one to initiate interaction. And when she does, interact for a short time, then have places to be and things to do.
Thank you for this response. Validating doesn’t come naturally to me, so I know it’s a work in progress. I'm reading a book right now called The Lost Art of Listening to try and help with that also. I didn’t have emotional support when I was young so I learned to live without it. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help relationships with other people, particularly a W who experienced a ton of childhood trauma. Learning the hard way, but I’ll get there. And I’ve been trying to validate with everyone I interact with as needed, just to improve.
As far as doing things for her. Here's a question: Do you want her to respect you, or to be your friend? Being a friend to someone you want more with [censored]! And will cause you to behave it was that do not command respect. Most LBS would rather be liked than respected. Which is why there are so many divorces. So stop doing those things. "Can you stop by the store and get me X." "No I don't have time for that." "Can you make me a sandwich?" "No, you can make your own sandwich." "Can you drive me to Y?" "No, that's something a husband does for a wife and you're are firing me as your husband."
She will get upset. She will get angry. She may not even like you for it. But she will respect you.
This helps. It’s hard because she can be demanding at times, but I understand the assignment! Thank you for your feedback. It definitely helps.
And she sounds pretty savvy because she is calling you out on the validation. However, that doesn't mean you stop. Both detaching and validating have a simple truth....."Practice makes perfect." So stop using canned responses and really try to understand her feelings. Then validate them. "I feel trapped in this marriage." Response: "Wow, I had no idea it was that bad for you. That has to be a terrible feeling." The suggested responses are simply examples. Quoting them without sincerity or feeling will be sniffed out by the savvy WASs. And detachment is not ignoring. If you're ignoring her you're doing it wrong. Look at it more as just not being the one to initiate interaction. And when she does, interact for a short time, then have places to be and things to do.
Thank you for this response. Validating doesn’t come naturally to me, so I know it’s a work in progress. I'm reading a book right now called The Lost Art of Listening to try and help with that also. I didn’t have emotional support when I was young so I learned to live without it. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help relationships with other people, particularly a W who experienced a ton of childhood trauma. Learning the hard way, but I’ll get there. And I’ve been trying to validate with everyone I interact with as needed, just to improve.
As far as doing things for her. Here's a question: Do you want her to respect you, or to be your friend? Being a friend to someone you want more with [censored]! And will cause you to behave it was that do not command respect. Most LBS would rather be liked than respected. Which is why there are so many divorces. So stop doing those things. "Can you stop by the store and get me X." "No I don't have time for that." "Can you make me a sandwich?" "No, you can make your own sandwich." "Can you drive me to Y?" "No, that's something a husband does for a wife and you're are firing me as your husband."
She will get upset. She will get angry. She may not even like you for it. But she will respect you.
This helps. It’s hard because she can be demanding at times, but I understand the assignment! Thank you for your feedback. It definitely helps.
Also, do not apologize. This is something LBS struggle with. Notice the responses I listed. They don't say " Sorry, I don't have time." Just "No. I don't have time." Its hard not to apologize, but you definitely shouldn't.
Hi DW17.
Sorry you’re here. There’s been thousands before you, and there will be thousands after you.
It won’t be okay today… or tomorrow… or next month. But one day, it will all be okay.
I’ll add some more when I’m not working, yet just wanted to make a quick comment around the “your next wife can thank me” and the comments about how you threw it away by not agreeing to marriage counselling before your trip away.
It’s all BS. If you’d gone to MC then, she would have used it to start separation. Or she would have said “I can’t believe you thought we could fix your problems in our marriage in two weeks, you don’t care about me.”
It’s really important to know that whatever you do, you’re in the wrong. You could be the best husband, person and father in the world - and she would still blame you for everything.
Beg - she’ll tell you you’re weak. Walk away - she’ll tell everyone you didn’t try. Agree with her on everything, you’re just trying to trick her into coming back. Disagree with her on everything, and you’re an [censored] and that is why she has to leave.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU ARE WRONG, SHE IS RIGHT AND SHE WILL SEEK VALIDATION FROM EVERYONE THAT THIS IS YOUR FAULT. You have to learn to be okay with that.
Learn to disconnect. Follow DB principles. Accept she’s going to be angry sometimes. And do not disappear down the tunnel where you are terrified of every interaction like each word you say could be the final nail in the coffin. It’s not like that, and probably no matter what you do, she’s going to do what she’s going to do. Don’t live or interact or respond through fear.
Best of luck. Stop worrying about her, and start worrying about you.
As Steve said, best thing you can do is walk the other way happily. If she realises what she’s throwing away she might come around, and if she doesn’t … you’re already a long way down the road to starting your new life.
I’d think seriously about kicking her out of your bedroom. No sex! If she doesn’t want to be your husband, she can sleep on the couch IMHO. “I’m hearing that you don’t want me as your husband. I’m respecting your wishes. It’s best you sleep on the couch from now on.” And then leave the house before she starts an argument.
Thank you all for the responses, it's much appreciated. I do have a few more things I've been thinking about that I'm curious how to handle.
First, my wedding ring. I have not been wearing my ring for over a month because it was a daily reminder of W and everything that was wrong at the time. Taking it off helped me stop thinking of her as my W, which helped with daily anxiety and stress. W hasn't had her ring in years because she lost it and we just never got around to replacing it (I know, I'm an idiot). At the time, I was hesitant to commit to buying her a new one because she would jokingly mention getting a D at times, or mention it during arguments. That, coupled with the previous PA gave me pause. So my question is, do most people going through this keep wearing it, or not? And since I'm not wearing it, I assume it'd be ill advised to start again. I've only had a few people ask why I'm not wearing it, but it's always an awkward conversation that makes me wish I was just wearing it still. Very few people are aware of our situation.
Second, for various reasons I want to split up our bank accounts. We honestly should have done this years ago, but I’m curious about how other people have handled finances while living with IHS. The way we’ve typically handled finances is that I would pay all of the bills from my checks and hers went toward everything else. This obviously doesn’t work in our current situation, especially with her renewed focus on hair, nails, clothing, makeup, etc. I’ve been ignoring the money situation while handling everything else, but W has been blowing money for about 3 months now and it feels like the appropriate time to address it. D17 has a birthday next weekend we’re prepping for, but after that I intend to talk to W about splitting finances. My plan is to each have separate accounts and pay our fair share of the bills (she makes quite a bit less money than me) and split costs for groceries/kid stuff/etc. Any thoughts on how I should handle this?
First, my wedding ring. I have not been wearing my ring for over a month because it was a daily reminder of W and everything that was wrong at the time. Taking it off helped me stop thinking of her as my W, which helped with daily anxiety and stress. W hasn't had her ring in years because she lost it and we just never got around to replacing it (I know, I'm an idiot). At the time, I was hesitant to commit to buying her a new one because she would jokingly mention getting a D at times, or mention it during arguments. That, coupled with the previous PA gave me pause. So my question is, do most people going through this keep wearing it, or not? And since I'm not wearing it, I assume it'd be ill advised to start again. I've only had a few people ask why I'm not wearing it, but it's always an awkward conversation that makes me wish I was just wearing it still. Very few people are aware of our situation.
DW she wasn't likely joking at the time she has been likely thinking about this for many years. As for the ring my question is what does the ring mean to you?
Second, for various reasons I want to split up our bank accounts. We honestly should have done this years ago, but I’m curious about how other people have handled finances while living with IHS. The way we’ve typically handled finances is that I would pay all of the bills from my checks and hers went toward everything else. This obviously doesn’t work in our current situation, especially with her renewed focus on hair, nails, clothing, makeup, etc. I’ve been ignoring the money situation while handling everything else, but W has been blowing money for about 3 months now and it feels like the appropriate time to address it. D17 has a birthday next weekend we’re prepping for, but after that I intend to talk to W about splitting finances. My plan is to each have separate accounts and pay our fair share of the bills (she makes quite a bit less money than me) and split costs for groceries/kid stuff/etc. Any thoughts on how I should handle this?
First off I would speak to a lawyer regarding protecting yourself from major purposes. Secondly I would split the bills based on a percentage of money made.
Thank you all for the responses, it's much appreciated. I do have a few more things I've been thinking about that I'm curious how to handle.
First, my wedding ring. I have not been wearing my ring for over a month because it was a daily reminder of W and everything that was wrong at the time. Taking it off helped me stop thinking of her as my W, which helped with daily anxiety and stress. W hasn't had her ring in years because she lost it and we just never got around to replacing it (I know, I'm an idiot). At the time, I was hesitant to commit to buying her a new one because she would jokingly mention getting a D at times, or mention it during arguments. That, coupled with the previous PA gave me pause. So my question is, do most people going through this keep wearing it, or not? And since I'm not wearing it, I assume it'd be ill advised to start again. I've only had a few people ask why I'm not wearing it, but it's always an awkward conversation that makes me wish I was just wearing it still. Very few people are aware of our situation.
This has been the single most debated thing ever on these forums : )
For me it was simple....
When I felt married regardless of what she was doing, I wore it....
It is entirely up to you what you do...
Some will say it is pressure and guilt towards the WAS...
There is no correct answer other than do what you feel you want to do....
Second, for various reasons I want to split up our bank accounts. We honestly should have done this years ago, but I’m curious about how other people have handled finances while living with IHS. The way we’ve typically handled finances is that I would pay all of the bills from my checks and hers went toward everything else. This obviously doesn’t work in our current situation, especially with her renewed focus on hair, nails, clothing, makeup, etc. I’ve been ignoring the money situation while handling everything else, but W has been blowing money for about 3 months now and it feels like the appropriate time to address it. D17 has a birthday next weekend we’re prepping for, but after that I intend to talk to W about splitting finances. My plan is to each have separate accounts and pay our fair share of the bills (she makes quite a bit less money than me) and split costs for groceries/kid stuff/etc. Any thoughts on how I should handle this?
I would recommend that you do this, yet you are going to have to be more cognizant about how you do it....
Your words are gonna have to be the right way when you do it....
Something along the lines of...
Wife, considering the current situation that we are facing, I've decided it is best to rethink our financial situation. And then lay out a plan to work toward that.
Whatever percentage you see fit to adapt to that.
It is going to be hard because the pattern is set. Most in a WA state of mind don't really care about anything that holds the accountable, especially financially.
Stay away from the words "I", and "you". They tend to hold statements that harbor a lot of guilt.
Guilt is fine, as long as you aren't the one facilitating it.
It's a razor's edge....just be sure that whatever you do, it is firm, unyielding, and absolute....
And make sure that you back it up with action...
DW she wasn't likely joking at the time she has been likely thinking about this for many years. As for the ring my question is what does the ring mean to you?
My ring symbolizes the fact that I am committed to my marriage and have no intent at this time to move on from it. Removing it helped me with attachment issues at the time that I no longer believe are an issue. I think wearing it again may indicate to my W that I am still attached, which I suppose runs counter to DB principles. Thinking through it now, I suppose since I took it off, I should keep it off. Losing weight and not wearing a ring usually only means one thing, which a few people have keyed in on already, but I’ll just let it play out I guess.
First off I would speak to a lawyer regarding protecting yourself from major purposes. Secondly I would split the bills based on a percentage of money made.
I plan on speaking to a lawyer in a few weeks once our schedules cool off a bit. Work and home are pretty busy, but I will definitely reach out to schedule an appt. I’m not super concerned about big purchases, but the nickel and diming of unnecessary things while our credit card debt has slowly increased has been a bit frustrating. I wish I had been more vocal about it 3 months ago, but the advice I got at the time was to ignore money issues because it would have led to unnecessary arguments. Right now feels like the right time to address it. And I agree with the % of money made split. That’s what I’ll shoot for.
Mach1, thanks for the input. I'll spend the next week ironing out specifics and how to frame the convo so it is productive and guilt-free and make sure it is a plan that I won't waver from. I'm actually looking forward to relieving some of the financial responsibility I've been carrying all these years that always seemed to go unrecognized.
I think wearing it again may indicate to my W that I am still attached, which I suppose runs counter to DB principles.
Oh trust me a WW can sniff attachment like a bloodhound. She knows your attached so wear the ring for you if you so wish. When you detach and take the focus off her she will know it and at that point she may start to rethink how she feels about you.
A situation just came up that I'm curious if I handled correctly. W has known that I've had plans to pick up D4 and our previous foster daughter (I'll just call her D6 from now on) from school today and take them to the park. W was also aware that I am going to D17's BF's football game tonight. She keeps asking who I'm going with and why, but I have been vague, stating "I'm not exactly sure." Anyway, on the way to the park W sent me a text asking if we should skip the park and get Halloween costumes and go to the beach (about 40 min away) for the sunset. I ignored the text so she called right when we got to the park saying those were the plans. She also got mad about my poor communication. I said I'd be willing to do the costumes and assumed she remembered I was going to the game. When we got home, she said we'd go to the beach first, then get costumes after, or tomorrow. I reminded her that I was going to the FB game and she got upset saying I wasn't going to get to spend time with the kids and questioning why I was going to the game again. At one point she even said "Too bad you don't realize you're getting custody papers soon and only getting 2 days a week." I'm certain she's done nothing to legally push for anything, so I'll assume she's just venting. Anyway, I stood my ground and said I'd be willing to go get Halloween costumes, but I already had plans later. She basically stormed out of the house with the kids, trying to make me feel guilty or feel like a bad dad, despite the fact that I have spent so much time with the kids the past 2 months that their closeness with me makes W say that I'm "stealing" them from her. I didn't really validate her anger, I responded calmly and tried to just not say much. Was this the correct way to handle it? She knew my plans all week and tried changing them last minute. I'm not sure if she is just trying to get me to not go to the game or she just wanted to go to the beach but didn't want to drive, or didn't want to actually watch the kids at the beach, but wanted to go. These are all common for her and it's likely all of the above. It's weird for me to not change my plans in order to spend time with the kids or W. I'd honestly have rather gone to the beach, but that seems counter to what I've been learning and these types of situations come up often enough that I know I'll need a good game plan to handle them.
Was this the correct way to handle it?
Yep. You couldn’t have done better. Not your circus - not your monkey.
We told you this would happen. She wants to be pulling the puppet strings, and you’re not playing by her rules - so she’s going to try throwing her toys out the pram, and threats to get what she wants. It’s what has worked for her in the past, of course she’s going to try again!
Not responding to the “you’ll get two days custody” is what you must do. Just walk out with an aloof smile on your face. Never, EVER take her bait.
It's weird for me to not change my plans in order to spend time with the kids or W.
It’s weird because you’re not used to it, not because it’s wrong. If my partner asks me to go to the beach and I don’t want to, I say no, and she says okay. That’s how adult relationships work. It seems you previously had a really unhealthy power dynamic in the relationship.
Kind18 - I agree that we had an unhealthy power dynamic that lacked respect from each of us. It’s something my sister has mentioned to me as well.
A little update to the situation yesterday - I got home from the football game and W was in laying in the middle of our king size bed with the two little ones on either side. D4 asked if I could put her in her own bed so I did. W said I'd have to sleep on the couch because there wasn't room. I said I would not leave my bed and that she was free to sleep wherever she wanted. She got upset, accused me of trying to manipulate her because in my begging phase I had asked her to sleep in the bed instead of the couch, she moved D6 to her own bed, told me to stay away from her kids and said she'd take me for everything I have. I told her I understand her frustration, but she is the one choosing to separate and I would not be leaving my own bed.
As I left for work this morning, she woke up and started calling me a fake nice guy and said this was all an act and is not my true self. I’m not sure exactly where that came from first thing in the morning, but I responded that I was sorry she felt that way, and this is not an act. I said have a good day, and left for work.
These interactions make me feel like I’m doing something right. It’s only been in the past week or so that I’ve stuck up for myself instead of living in fear of upsetting her. I assume it’ll take W a little time to adjust to that, but it’s nice no longer walking on eggshells in my own home.
Wow. I’m gobsmacked. You absolutely nailed it.
She is struggling big time. She might appear to hate you, but underneath she’s respecting you for being a man. She’s angry because she’s uncomfortable.
Now all you have to is stick at it for months, perhaps years before she wakes up - and also stick with it, in the knowledge that she may still leave even if you DB like a boss.
It‘s a marathon, not a sprint. Can you ignore her baiting and tantrums for months/years? As soon as you bite, she wins.
Now forget about her, and go do something for yourself. Gym, bike ride, hike, work on your car, go out with friends, go on a tour…. The world’s your oyster!
You are doing very well, DW! (Those initials make me think of Darryl Waltrip!).
One tweak. I'm not a fan of "I'm sorry you feel that way". I would tweak it to "I understand you feel that way".
Other than that you've been crushing it!
Thanks for the positive feedback. It's nice having confirmation that I'm on the right track.
Kind18 - I'm getting a lot better at ignoring the baiting, but I know a good week or two doesn't mean I'm good to go. I haven't responded to her baiting this whole time, but I allowed it to eat at me all day, even though I was painting a smile on my face around her. That is not something I can live with each day.
SteveLW - I do have a tendency to say sorry a lot. I know you've mentioned not apologizing a few times now. It's a habit I gotta break, and I'll keep at it! I say "I understand your frustration" or "I understand how you feel" a lot and get negative feedback from it. W responds with "You'll never understand how I feel" or "If you understood you'd realize it's your fault I feel this way." She's not entirely wrong, but I'll just keep validating and trying to make sure she knows I actually do care when I'm responding to her.
Hey D...
MLC/WAS is about control... ^^^^ they kinda nailed it up there....
Since I'm about the theory of WAS/MLC... I want you to see the 'why' of DBing...
The more in control that you allow them to be, the more that they will take....
The more in control that YOU are, the more that they will spew and attempt to push buttons on you so that you can be the person that they want to leave.
You being happy, and taking back your life is NOT the person that she has described to her friends and anyone willing to listen to her BS.
IF you respond to her pushing your buttons, and you anger, and sulk...
You are essentially becoming the person that she has painted you to be. And you justify her reasons to leave the marriage...
Remove those buttons, and there will be worse days ahead like this. Yet fear not, every time something like this happens, it means you are doing a better job DBing....
It's kind of like a child throwing a tantrum because you wouldn't buy them candy.....you wouldn't give in because they aren't getting their way...
Same principal here....
I've often used an analogy of the Space Shuttle....
The booster tanks that hold fuel during take-off, because of the amount burned during that process. And once the Shuttle is in it's flight pattern, they will fall away....
Same thing now. Her anger is the booster tanks. She has anger to fuel her "takeoff", and she plans to use it to lift off away from you. She will use it to paint you as this incredible monster that stole her life away from her. It's HER truth, not necessarily yours....yet it is extremely important to validate her feelings, even if it's not your truth.
However, once you establish your flight path, you will slowly see the anger fall away.
She is going to try every trick in the book too, to spin you out .....
Remove those buttons (typically it involves the kiddos)....
Recognize it for what it is, while you are in the moment, and you will fare better than worse....
Pretty sure you've seen her flip the 'bithc switch" already. Going from rational to childlike in a split second....
If not ??
This has been a preview for your future viewing pleasure....
You are doing incredible for a noob....
DW17,
Haven't gotten a chance to read & comment on your thread until now, but wanted to lend my support.
As SteveLW & Kind18 said, you asking to hold off on MC until after your business was absolutely not the issue. Anyone who can't wait a few weeks after two decades is not committed to working on things regardless. So don't beat yourself up over a reasonable logistic request.
It’s really important to know that whatever you do, you’re in the wrong. You could be the best husband, person and father in the world - and she would still blame you for everything.
Beg - she’ll tell you you’re weak. Walk away - she’ll tell everyone you didn’t try. Agree with her on everything, you’re just trying to trick her into coming back. Disagree with her on everything, and you’re an [censored] and that is why she has to leave.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU ARE WRONG, SHE IS RIGHT AND SHE WILL SEEK VALIDATION FROM EVERYONE THAT THIS IS YOUR FAULT. You have to learn to be okay with that.
^^^THIS!!!
Second, for various reasons I want to split up our bank accounts. We honestly should have done this years ago
First off I would speak to a lawyer regarding protecting yourself from major purposes. Secondly I would split the bills based on a percentage of money made.
I plan on speaking to a lawyer in a few weeks once our schedules cool off a bit. Work and home are pretty busy, but I will definitely reach out to schedule an appt.
Don't wait on the lawyer. Do it NOW. Like tomorrow. Or at least this week. Depends on your jurisdiction, but there's a good chance it doesn't matter how you section off the finances if you're still married and don't have a separation agreement...it's marital money. If you're concerned about finances and her blowing money on new clothes, make up, nail appointments, personal trainers...etc. to impress OM. Protect yourself!
At one point she even said "Too bad you don't realize you're getting custody papers soon and only getting 2 days a week."
told me to stay away from her kids and said she'd take me for everything I have
LOL! What a quote. Idol, powerless threats she's making! She WILL NOT get the kids for 5 of 7 days a week, and she WILL NOT take all of your money. There's her BS, and then there's the law. This is why you should consult a lawyer...when she makes these ridiculous claims you'll know where you really stand and it'll empower you.
Not responding to the “you’ll get two days custody” is what you must do. Just walk out with an aloof smile on your face. Never, EVER take her bait.
Wow. I’m gobsmacked. You absolutely nailed it.
I agree with Kind18...cool, confident, wry smile...you're the one who has the knowledge and it's powerful. You did well on the response to custody and financial threats, and you stood strong on the marital bed. Way to have a backbone! Way to stand up for yourself!
W has a bunch of childhood trauma
Can you be more specific about your W's trauma?
Can you be more specific about your W's trauma?
BL42, thank you for your input as well. The support here is awesome.
W had most kinds of childhood trauma you can imagine. Alcoholic/drug addict parents, dad in and out of jail, kept getting sent to foster homes where she was molested, raped/molested by an uncle (who recently went to jail for murder a few weeks before W gave me BD), dad committed suicide, moved in with different aunt/uncle, with her brother. They raised her and she calls them mom/dad, had a bunch of kids in the house, brother got kicked out of the house due to being a difficult child and sent to live hours away, molested by sibling in her new home, kicked out of this home and sent hours away last year of high school, then moved in with me. She is not in contact with bio mom and talks to brother a couple times a year. Sibling who molested lives across the country. The remaining family she associates with are all good people.
So yeah, a lot going on there and it's horrible. I knew most of this early on, but didn't comprehend the amount of pain this would cause her and what exactly I needed to do to help. W went to therapy as a kid, but never while we've been together. W always just blocked it out and said she was fine. As someone who has done the same thing with events from my past (alcoholic mom and my W's PA), I know that you can't just ignore these things.
DW17,
Can you be more specific about your W's trauma?
W had most kinds of childhood trauma you can imagine. Alcoholic/drug addict parents, dad in and out of jail, kept getting sent to foster homes where she was molested, raped/molested by an uncle (who recently went to jail for murder a few weeks before W gave me BD), dad committed suicide, moved in with different aunt/uncle, with her brother. They raised her and she calls them mom/dad, had a bunch of kids in the house, brother got kicked out of the house due to being a difficult child and sent to live hours away, molested by sibling in her new home, kicked out of this home and sent hours away last year of high school, then moved in with me. She is not in contact with bio mom and talks to brother a couple times a year. Sibling who molested lives across the country. The remaining family she associates with are all good people.
Wow DW17, that's a lot. If anything - and I know it's tough when dealing with the betrayal of a spouse's affair - try to work on empathy towards your W. Doesn't mean you excuse her actions and allow yourself to be disrespected, but give yourself some compassion in knowing there's a very real possibility this has less to do with you than it does your W. Often times people with trauma think they're over it and strive to do better but deep down it's been modeled and it can be so difficult to escape the past. But know that a person's poor behavior is a reflection on them, not you. It's understandable to get caught up in the hurt and anger of the betrayal or blame yourself for it all, but forgive yourself your mistakes and take comfort in the knowledge a very big part of this may not be about you at all.
So yeah, a lot going on there and it's horrible. I knew most of this early on, but didn't comprehend the amount of pain this would cause her and what exactly I needed to do to help. W went to therapy as a kid, but never while we've been together. W always just blocked it out and said she was fine. As someone who has done the same thing with events from my past (alcoholic mom and my W's PA), I know that you can't just ignore these things.
It's not unusual to look past the issues of people you fall for, but good you recognize it now and won't sweep them under the rug in the future. These things are very difficult and require a lot of work and dedication. Hopefully you stick with IC and W commits to IC for herself as well, regardless of what happens with you marriage.
An update after setting a boundary with the bed. I was fully expecting W to be in a bad mood after sleeping on the couch. Everything was "fine" the next day. This roller coaster is hard to wrap my head around but I'll just keep riding it I guess.
W went out with a girl friend for their weekly close out the bar night. Before leaving she asked my opinion of her clothes. I told her that she should wear what she wants and it's her opinion that matters, not mine. She wears a lot of black now, which is weird and different, but oh well. She got upset that I "changed" again and it's not fair that I can't decide whether to ignore her or be nice to her. Context - few weeks back I tried detaching instead of being Mr. Nice Guy and it only lasted a few days. W got mad, just like the past few days, and the fear of her getting mad caused me to revert back to being nice. I realize the mistake and don't intend to revert again. W stayed the night at her friends house. To avoid driving home drunk, she stays at one of 2 friends houses and drives home in the morning. The last few weekends she's gone out, she has made it a point to let me know where she is or what her plans are. Last night she sent a pic of them before letting me know she'll be home in the morning. I did not reply.
Her sending me updates is new the past few weeks, and I think it is a result of a huge mistake I made. A few weeks ago W told me she was staying at a friends house. The paranoia of knowing she may be in a PA go to me. That is my boundary for D, and although I knew I shouldn't, I felt like I had to know if she was being honest. I had to go to a store in the morning near her friends house, so I drove by the house. My wife was walking down the street on the phone as I drove by, noticed me, and I had to stop to explain. I told her I was making sure she was where she said she was because each time she went out I couldn't sleep due to anxiety and paranoia of thinking she was having an A. She didn't react with too much anger, but called me a stalker and still mentions it occasionally. The paranoia was something I had dealt with every weekend, and I was improving, but had a weak moment and made a mistake. It was right after I decided that a PA was my boundary, so I felt I had to know for sure. Fortunately, the paranoia has been gone since then and I've accepted that I can't control my wife's whereabouts. I got no resolution on whether she's in a PA and now I'm a stalker so, yeah, wouldn't recommend doing that.
As far as the text updates, I know that it's entirely possible W is just sending me pics with her girl friend from earlier in the night and going to another house. I know that she may be meeting with AP at other times. I will not trust anything W says and I've been proceeding as I've seen here by assuming the worst. The hard part is having a PA as a boundary, yet having no realistic way to find out without making things worse. Current plan is to just wait things out. If I find out, I find out. It's not worth the daily stress while I'm working on other things. But I am curious, how have others in this situation dealt with the desire to know about a PA while IHS and not being able to ask/check on W's truthfulness? Just ignore it and learn to be comfortable with the unknown? I know people have mentioned hiring investigators - I don't plan on doing that. And I don't intend to spy again.
Oh and BL42 - Thanks for the advice on speaking to a lawyer ASAP. I will get on that. It probably should happen before I set a plan for splitting finances. It's a crazy week at work prepping for a possible promotion, D17's birthday party at our house, soccer games, soccer practices, etc, but if I can get out of work for a few hours one day, you're right that I should do it.
DW my suggestion to you is that if a PA is a boundary you have that is real and you are ready to enforce than you should explore all avenues to confirm.
If you find out and do not enforce the boundary than you are better of not knowing and just continue with your 180s.
Today I reached out to an attorney that a friend used for his divorce and am waiting for a response. It'll just be a consultation to make sure I'm prepared for whatever is to come. I plan on discussing custody concerns for D4, splitting finances, options for our house in the event of a divorce (buy outs, selling, renting, etc), child support/alimony info and what I should be doing now to make sure I'm protected.
That's a lot of things for a consultation, but is there anything else I should be discussing? I don't know much about the actual process for divorce and only have one friend who was in a similar situation so I'll lean on his advice as well. Never thought I'd have to think about this stuff so it's a bit of an unknown for me.
DW17,
It's not normal or acceptable behavior for a married woman with kids at home to regularly stay out all night closing down the bars and sleeping at other people's house, whether it really is her "girlfriends" or not - and I'm skeptical. My now-ExW stayed at her mom's house and had a friend over to hide things with OM2. Why is it your W couldn't taxi or Uber back to your house instead of her girlfriends? Sounds like BS to me.
Don't spend a second worrying about her being mad you didn't comment on her outfit or respond to her texts from the bar. She's throw barbs towards you and you just deflect and hold your head up high and be happy with life (and if, understandably you're not right now, then "fake it till you make it").
If PA really is a boundary you need to be prepared to enforce it. She's already had a PA 12 years ago and is exhibiting every sign of one now (drinking with her bar friends who were around for her previous PA, staying out all night, constantly on phone...etc.). Hate to say this, but every experienced poster on this site would be shocked if it's not already a PA. It's easy enough to confirm if you want to, but understand you said you don't want to spy/use a PI. I lived through a PA during IHS and spied and knew what was happening as it developed in real time and couldn't stop it. It was awful. But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.
DW17,
Good you took action on the lawyer consultation! It doesn't mean you have to take action, but having the knowledge will empower you and inform your decisions. Also, don't be afraid to meet with 2-3 to make sure you're comfortable.
In terms of the D, here are the major areas:
- Child Custody - With your biological kids being 17 & 19 this will be less of an issue for them, but I assume adopted children are the same under the law as biological? Talk to L about that.
- Child Support - Again, due to their ages your biological kids won't be a major issue but check on your adopted child. At 4yo it could be a long time (until 18yo, or 21yo in some states).
- Spousal Support - Often states have calculators based on length of marriage and disparity of income. Finding a calculator or your L should be able to give you a good idea.
- Assets - In the US states are either Equal or Equitable Distribution. Equal meaning divide everything (assets AND debts) in half, equitable meaning take your premarital assets off the table and then divide everything in half. I'm guessing because of the "high school sweetheart" status neither of you had many premarital assets.
I'd definitely talk to L about what actually makes the financial split official. If she's running up credit card bills spending on clothes, makeup, OM dinners and hotels...whatever, can you just section off accounts now or do you need to make a legal filing to cut off her debt from being on you.
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home. My understanding is that I'm supposed to just say "I hope you have fun" and give her that time and space and basically ignore it. It has gotten easier to do that each week as it has lately turned less into anger and more into feeling sorry that her life has resorted to lying in bed, playing on her phone, closing out bars and sleeping on couches. We are almost 40!
My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there. I have seen some of her text messages while she was texting next to me, and it seems like the types of convos you have at the beginning of a relationship. She is all of a sudden interested in football, particularly the Bengals (AP's favorite team apparently) after having 0 interest her entire life. I have proof she was honest with some of the times she was at her friend's houses, including when I drove by, and she doesn't have a ton of other time that's unaccounted for as she usually just stays in bed on her phone at home. But I would be an idiot to assume she’s just hanging out with friends. I’ll just keep preparing for the worst and make sure I’m ready to enforce my boundary if I find out it has been crossed.
Funny side note, yesterday D4 out of the blue told W "Dad hates all of your friends." She overheard a phone conversation I had with my sister where I must have said that. W asked her to explain and she adamantly doubled down. W believed her, even though I tried to deflect and talk my way out of it, but oh well. She didn't really get mad, but did immediately start texting to I presume the friends assisting her self-destruction. I gotta watch what I say around her lol.
I lived through a PA during IHS and spied and knew what was happening as it developed in real time and couldn't stop it. It was awful. But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.
That is rough to hear man. I can’t even imagine. Maybe I’m lucky in that my PA boundary is a result of already having gone through this and telling myself never again. Easier to say than do, but I respect myself and deserve more than that. Did you ever confront your W about it or just sit back and wait for her to change?
DW17,
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.
Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.
My understanding is that I'm supposed to just say "I hope you have fun" and give her that time and space and basically ignore it.
Not sure I'd say "I hope you have fun", but definitely give her space - you can't stop her from going to the bars and having an affair anyway, as much as you'd like to.
My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there.
Could be. Hate to say this, but it's likely much worse than you think...or what she'll admit to, if she ever does admit to anything.
I have seen some of her text messages while she was texting next to me, and it seems like the types of convos you have at the beginning of a relationship.
My then-W would text AP in the same room as me, in my then-S4's bedroom for hours while she was "putting him to bed". She'd say "I'm texting my girlfriend". And she was...but also texting OM1! It was so blatant. Based on the texts she thought she was being slick, but it was painfully obviously. Caught up in some serious fog.
She is all of a sudden interested in football, particularly the Bengals (AP's favorite team apparently) after having 0 interest her entire life.
Funny isn't the word, because you're in a serious situation, but I did smile at this one because I came across my then-W having an NFL team's jersey she previously hated because it was OM2's team. They'll flip on a dime and many are chameleons changing colors to match the AP and make the AP feel like they're a perfect match. Google "love bombing".
I have proof she was honest with some of the times she was at her friend's houses, including when I drove by, and she doesn't have a ton of other time that's unaccounted for as she usually just stays in bed on her phone at home. But I would be an idiot to assume she’s just hanging out with friends.
Right. And you're not an idiot. You would not believe the extent they'd go to hook up. Mine did physically in the office during work hours (I have proff). Others on here are doing it in a car in an abondoned parking lot. If she's out all night regularly "staying at a friends"....
Did you ever confront your W about it or just sit back and wait for her to change
I confronted her several times about it over a few months. It took me about 12hours after BD to confirm an EA with her coworker. Lots of "talks" and pressure. I'd work up a script in my head to deliver about why we should keep the family together and work on our marriage and then deliver it. I kept giving her opportunities to come out with it. First I'd ask "Is there another guy?", then a week or two later it was "I know there's another guy" then a week or two later I'd say "I know there's another guy and this is his name". That shocked her a bit (of course I knew who it was from early on). They spent 3-4hrs on the phone the next day, assuming talking about the implications of me knowing his name and possibly contacting their work or his W. Each time then-W would lie directly to my face. When I named him she said they were just friends and had been for 10 years...funny we were together 8-9 and I'd never heard his name, and he was in her phone with his job title (like you'd type into your contacts if you met some random person). They will flat out lie and deceive you...even if you've known them for decades and you can't imagine them doing it.
Anyway, all that confronting and R talk was before I found this site. It was ill-advised. If I had to do it over I'd seriously consider packing up all her stuff and leaving it on the porch for when she got back "late from work" and serving her papers as she left work with him. That said...I can honestly tell my kids someday if they ask that I made every effort and gave ExW every opportunity to keep the family together and she decided not to. So there's that, which isn't nothing. Your bio kids are old...they know exactly what's up. Just make sure you're the best dad you can be as your W is going off the rails. Your kids (bio and adopted) deserve it.
DW17,
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.
Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.
Also...
Make sure that you document the time that you are with them, and what the specifics are. Who is with them, what times and days...
Legally, if it isn't written, it didn't happen...
You may never need to use that, however it best to be safe than sorry...
I kept a calendar with who had custody on what day, then a journal of the days events if anything odd were to happen....
W had most kinds of childhood trauma you can imagine. Alcoholic/drug addict parents, dad in and out of jail, kept getting sent to foster homes where she was molested, raped/molested by an uncle (who recently went to jail for murder a few weeks before W gave me BD), dad committed suicide, moved in with different aunt/uncle, with her brother. They raised her and she calls them mom/dad, had a bunch of kids in the house, brother got kicked out of the house due to being a difficult child and sent to live hours away, molested by sibling in her new home, kicked out of this home and sent hours away last year of high school, then moved in with me. She is not in contact with bio mom and talks to brother a couple times a year. Sibling who molested lives across the country. The remaining family she associates with are all good people.
I don't want to minimise her experiences (and yes you should show compassion and validate when she brings these things up), but bear in mind some middle aged women have a story of woe and horror which either didn't exist, or which is vastly exaggerated. My ex-wife had come from a family that didn't value her, teased her, caused her anorexia, didn't encourage her to go to uni, and then a string of ever worsening relationships with bad men who treated her poorly and abused her and took drugs and cheated on her.
It was all very sad and made me want to protect her even more during our 10 year marriage... right up until the point I realised most of it was made-up BS and she was a serial victim (still is today). Most of her childhood problems were actually her own, which she blamed on others.
I am truly sorry if your wife went through all of that, but perhaps be open-minded to the possibility that it's been embellished significantly. (It's also entirely possible that it's all very true, and the trauma associated which you say she has hidden, is now bubbling to the surface and fuelling MLC). As BL42 says, maybe 99% of this isn't about you - but her, her past and her trauma. Maybe take heart from that.
An update after setting a boundary with the bed. I was fully expecting W to be in a bad mood after sleeping on the couch. Everything was "fine" the next day. This roller coaster is hard to wrap my head around but I'll just keep riding it I guess.
She's an addict, and her drugs of choice are drama and arguments and checking if you're on her hook. You played it so well that she didn't get her drug fix, so there's no hangover. She's going to try again shortly for a fix from you.
Before leaving she asked my opinion of her clothes. I told her that she should wear what she wants and it's her opinion that matters, not mine. She wears a lot of black now, which is weird and different, but oh well. She got upset that I "changed" again and it's not fair that I can't decide whether to ignore her or be nice to her
And bingo, there it is - she needs her drug fix again. She is engineering an argument to prove you're an a**hole and make herself feel better about her affair.
You responded reasonably well, but your "it's your opinion that matters, not mine" probably wasn't ideal - it comes across a bit sulky. I'd have said "looks okay. By the way, I won't be home tomorrow after work. I'm going out" and then immediately leave the room.
I realize the mistake and don't intend to revert again.
This is excellent recognition and personal development.
She has made it a point to let me know where she is or what her plans are
She is doing this for one of two reasons:
1. To hide an affair, or
2. To check if you're still attached and on her hook.
Bad DB response:
1. What time will you get home? (You look weak and desperate)
Average DB response:
2. Why should I care what you do in your own time? (You're trying to act AS-IF, but comes across the opposite)
Best DB response:
3. Yeah whatever. I probably won't be home anyway. (And then take D4 to the museum, or a movie, or go camping for a day or two).
Stalking stuff - thanks for being honest. Yes, it was mistake, but you recognise it and won't do it again.
The best way to avoid stalking and worrying about her and where she is and whether she is having a PA - is to have such an awesome, busy life that you really don't give a sh*t.
Best response when she sends a picture of her with her girlfriends which may or may not be an old photo - don't comment, just send one back of you at a bar with your mates having fun!
It's not normal or acceptable behavior for a married woman with kids at home to regularly stay out all night closing down the bars and sleeping at other people's house, whether it really is her "girlfriends" or not - and I'm skeptical. My now-ExW stayed at her mom's house and had a friend over to hide things with OM2. Why is it your W couldn't taxi or Uber back to your house instead of her girlfriends? Sounds like BS to me.
Of course it's BS! But you can't control it. Why bother worrying about what may or may not be happening if you can't change it? We only get 80 laps around the sun!
Don't spend a second worrying about her being mad you didn't comment on her outfit or respond to her texts from the bar. She's throw barbs towards you and you just deflect and hold your head up high and be happy with life (and if, understandably you're not right now, then "fake it till you make it").
Perfect advice. She'll be angry no matter what, best to just accept and ignore. "Fake it until you make it" is great advice, and something that really helped me to continue acting "meh" on the outside when I was anything but on the inside.
But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.
So am I. You never read stories of men with a WW who are sad for decades. It's an acute, horrific experience - but it's only temporary, and 2-3 years and most men are okay. Now I look back and wonder what the hell I was doing trying to save my relationship. DB is all well and good, but only if your spouse is worth it. Mine, and very many, are not.
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable.
She's a grown ass adult, she can do what she wants. Not your job to fix this. Either she decides for herself it's not appropriate, or you try to show her and push her further away. Its sort of what she wants - so she can paint you as a controlling spouse. Not your circus, not your monkey.
My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there
All these maybes and ruminating is a waste of time. Have you thought of getting a gym membership? It will keep you busy, make you feel better, help you sleep - and 9 out of 10 psychologists say hard physical exercise is better than any therapy or medication for mental health.
I'd happily wager $100 she's having a PA. But there's nothing you can do about it. Stop exhausting energy trying to analyse or catch her out. Either she wakes up and comes back, or she doesn't. Time to get busy living your own life, leave her to deal with the steaming pile of sh*t she has created.
Make sure that you document the time that you are with them, and what the specifics are. Who is with them, what times and days..
Definitely do this. Either email it to yourself frequently if she can't access your emails (so there's timestamps), or write it down in a book and date/sign each entry.
Any chance your next five posts could be exclusively about you? Your GAL activities. Your dreams/hopes/aspirations/ultimate holiday - and what you're going to do to make sure it happens! How about some physical health goals ... by xxx date i'm going to lose yyy pounds.
Have you seen "Shawshank Redemption"? You should watch it - a great story about human resilience and triumph.
My favourite quote from that movie - "Get busy living, or get busy dying". Sitting around, worrying about her, and trying to save a trainwreck that is out of your control sounds like the second option. Why don't you concentrate on option 1?
Kind18 - I appreciate the feedback.
I don't have a gym membership, but I've been working out most days. I have a treadmill, I go for a morning run every Saturday and I'm doing the Insanity workout videos. I do those each night after I put D to bed, which is a nice way of avoiding W until I go to bed.
I started documenting a quick recap of each day and what I did with the kids yesterday. That was great advice. I'm going to keep it at work to avoid any issues.
Funny you mention Shawshank Redemption. It's my all-time favorite movie!
GAL has been a little harder than I thought it'd be so far. Exercising at home is probably not ideal, but it’s working. I’ve been exercising and eating well most of the year. In January I was the heaviest I’ve ever been so the changes started then, months before BD. Right now I’m the fittest I’ve been since high school and I’m down 70 pounds this year. I want to finish up this Insanity workout and then join a Cross Fit gym.
I’ve been trying to plan at least one activity with friends and one with the kids each weekend. I take D4 to the park a few times a week and generally try to stay out of the house on weekends. I made sure I was gone last Sunday before W came home in the morning and was able to stay occupied most of the day. I’ve joined a supporters group for a sports team and plan to attend their events for watching games. I’ve reached out to some friends/coworkers about doing things, but nothing is set in stone yet. Saturday is D17’s birthday so I don’t know that I’ll plan anything for that night, but I want to have Sunday filled with something. I’m bad at planning how to ….well GAL I guess. W was always the one that planned stuff like that, so it’s a little foreign to me, and probably part of what led to my lost identity. That will be one of my biggest focal points moving forward.
And yes, I’ll try and focus my next few posts on myself rather than W. I think most everything in my sitch has been laid out now in the previous posts, so I guess it’s time to start focusing on me and what I’m going to do to make myself better.
Any chance your next five posts could be exclusively about you? Your GAL activities. Your dreams/hopes/aspirations/ultimate holiday - and what you're going to do to make sure it happens! How about some physical health goals ... by xxx date i'm going to lose yyy pounds.
I've been setting some health goals for most of this year, but my current one is to finish up the Insanity workout series I've been doing (A little over a month left) and to lose 10 more pounds by the end of October. After that, I’d like to either join a Cross Fit gym or get into running a lot more.
My dreams/hopes/aspirations are difficult at the moment. Trying to figure everything out for D18 to go to college next year with the uncertainty with my M has been stressful but I’ve just been plugging away as if things will work themselves out. So I hope that D18 gets into a college that she likes. I hope that separating finances with W allows me the freedom to buy what I want, save money as I see fit and do things that I previously declined to do while trying to make the best financial decisions for my family. I’d like to go to some concerts. I’d like to spend a lot more time with people that I disconnected myself from throughout my M (I have reached out to several and have some things in the works). I aspire to be the best father I can be and help guide my youngest through her development in a much better way than I did for the older two. I hope to be the rock of support, especially emotionally, that S19 and D18 did not get from me for a large part of their lives.
I’ve always dreamed of traveling to a bunch of places, but I guess I convinced myself along the way that it would never happen. I tried for 3 years to become 100% debt free aside from my mortgage to be able to save money for college/travel/etc. W has always been unwilling to sacrifice for that dream and when she couldn’t even sacrifice this year to even make sure D18 had a path toward her future, I think I knew my dream of traveling would never happen. The whole reason I traveled for work earlier this year was to set us up financially to help D18 with college. But that plan went to hell, the money I saved went up in smoke when BD happened and I’m forging a new path ahead. But yeah, sorry for the sidetrack, but I do dream of traveling.
DW17,
Exercising at home is probably not ideal, but it’s working. I’ve been exercising and eating well most of the year. In January I was the heaviest I’ve ever been so the changes started then, months before BD. Right now I’m the fittest I’ve been since high school and I’m down 70 pounds this year. I want to finish up this Insanity workout and then join a Cross Fit gym.
Working out at a Cross Fit gym would definitely be more social, but good for you for doing it by yourself at home in the meantime. Well done on the 70 pounds! That's incredible. Your biggest challenge going forward is going to be sustaining that routine and improvements. There are plenty of people who came to this forum and lost significant weight on the BD/D diet only to gain it back in a year or two. Be the person who commits to this new healthy eating and regular exercise lifetime to make it a permanent change!
I’ve been trying to plan at least one activity with friends and one with the kids each weekend. I take D4 to the park a few times a week and generally try to stay out of the house on weekends.
Awesome! Friends and kids. Good stuff.
I made sure I was gone last Sunday before W came home in the morning and was able to stay occupied most of the day.
Perfect. You certainly don't need to be around to witness her "walk of shame".
I’ve joined a supporters group for a sports team and plan to attend their events for watching games.
Nice. Great idea.
I’ve reached out to some friends/coworkers about doing things, but nothing is set in stone yet.
It can be tough at first. People have their families and routines and lives. But good for you for reaching out. As you start to get some momentum new plans will begin to materialize.
I’m bad at planning how to ….well GAL I guess. W was always the one that planned stuff like that, so it’s a little foreign to me, and probably part of what led to my lost identity. That will be one of my biggest focal points moving forward.
I hear you. You're not alone there. Time to flex that muscle and get busy!
I hope that separating finances with W allows me the freedom to buy what I want, save money as I see fit and do things that I previously declined to do while trying to make the best financial decisions for my family.
I tried for 3 years to become 100% debt free aside from my mortgage to be able to save money for college/travel/etc. W has always been unwilling to sacrifice for that dream
If you're a saver and she's a spender, I think you'll find post-financial separation you're doing quite fine on your own. Even with the exorbitant check I write ExW each month - think second mortgage, despite me spending more time with the kids than her - I have no trouble saving and investing as much if not more than I did while we were married on my sole income. All of a sudden the multiple Amazon boxes each day stopped arriving and the credit card and target bills plummeted! I even joined a country club and hired a house cleaner and am fine. I never wanted divorce, but the freedom to do it your way can be a plus.
I’d like to go to some concerts.
Go! Even if it's by yourself.
I aspire to be the best father I can be and help guide my youngest through her development in a much better way than I did for the older two. I hope to be the rock of support, especially emotionally, that S19 and D18 did not get from me for a large part of their lives.
You can't change the past, but you can be a better father going forward. Make the change now.
sorry for the sidetrack, but I do dream of traveling.
Then do it! Even if it's by yourself...or take the kids! Experiences > things.
Apologies to Kind18, I know I'm supposed to be posting about my GAL, but it's been a rough day and I guess I just found the need to vent here. It's 430 on Sunday here, and I probably only got 2 hours of sleep. Yesterday was D18's birthday party. It was a pretty emotional day having my "baby" turn 18. The past few days I've been having a hard time shaking wanting to know what's going on with W, like where she is, is she actually staying late at work, is she with AP, etc. I did well for a week, but I feel that need-to-know creeping back.
Things were fine at the bday party, family from both sides there with 4 of W's close friends. None of our families know what's going on with us, all of W's friends do. If there is an A going on, I know at least 2 of her friends would know about it based on them being around AP with W at their favorite watering hole. I've known these friends for a long time and can't imagine coming into someone's house knowing about a possible A and just acting like nothing is wrong. If there is an A, it's like being cheated on by W in addition to people who I consider my friends. Have others dealt with situations where W's friends knew what was going on and kept you in the dark still? I'm sure most do, so how did you handle that?
Toward the end of the party, W was texting AP and the friend she goes drinking with every weekend for about an hour straight and basically ignoring the remaining people at the party. D18's BF even commented to D18 about it. The minute W's last friend left the house, she went to the bedroom and said she was getting ready to go out. I knew she was going to, despite the fact that it was her daughter's 18th bday but it still shocked me. D18 ended up guilting her into staying because she didn't get to spend much time with her on her bday or at her party. W reluctantly stayed home, sat on the couch texting for 2 hours, then went to sleep. Watching her relationship with her kids slowly deteriorate is heartbreaking.
And with the need-to-know, W still texts AP non-stop in front of me, still sleeps with her phone, still wanders outside to have phone calls with a girl friend, etc. I got good at laughing it off, but it's getting harder each day. This week was hard for GAL just based on how much stuff is going on. Today I have to help D18 with school stuff and college applications on 2 hours sleep, so today is probably shot too. Next weekend I know I'll be doing stuff so maybe that will help clear my head, but it's been a rough few days. Feeling like a doormat is no fun and I hate that I'm starting to debate whether any of this is worth it. I know there's peaks and valleys to this stuff so hopefully I can shake it off this week. Posting here seems to help.
One more thing I've been thinking about. Neither of our families know what's going on except for my sister. With more birthdays and holidays coming up, it will be impossible to keep them in the dark much longer. I know W will not be at any of my family's events and the family BBQ she missed last month led to awkward questions the whole day. I haven't told my family because I don't want my mom to know. She won't be able to resist reaching out to W, and it will likely be in a negative way. W has had a rocky relationship with my family, especially my mom, and I don't want her ruining any of the work I've been doing with avoiding negative situations. I'll let W figure out when to let her family know. She will avoid it as long as possible, since they all love me and will likely try and talk sense into her, which is the last thing she wants. Is there an appropriate time/way to basically announce to the world that you are separated but living together? And do I just avoid specifics with my family and just say "We are working through some issues" or something along those lines?
DW: sorry I don’t have any answers for you. In a similar situation.WW has moved out . Don’t know who to tell and what specifics to say. So learning along with you. Both W and I don’t want to be subject to gossiping unnecessarily and value privacy.
DW17,
Apologies to Kind18, I know I'm supposed be posting about my GAL, but it's been a rough day and I guess I just found the need to vent here.
No need to apologize. It's perfectly normal to spin in these situations, wonder about W, and come here to vent or ask for advice about W. Our point is the more you can focus on yourself and GAL, the better for your own progress. But don't feel like you can't post about W when you need to.
It's 430 on Sunday here, and I probably only got 2 hours of sleep.
This is normal. I wasn't getting much sleep after BD and during IHS either. Working out helps. Also talking to a doctor about temporary medicine if needed. It'll pass over time and you'll sleep better in the future.
The past few days I've been having a hard time shaking wanting to know what's going on with W, like where she is, is she actually staying late at work, is she with AP, etc. I did well for a week, but I feel that need-to-know creeping back.
Understandable. It'll come in waves. The more you can focus on work, kids, your GAl activities the less time you'll have to focus on W.
I've known these friends for a long time and can't imagine coming into someone's house knowing about a possible A and just acting like nothing is wrong. If there is an A, it's like being cheated on by W in addition to people who I consider my friends. Have others dealt with situations where W's friends knew what was going on and kept you in the dark still? I'm sure most do, so how did you handle that?
That's tough. It's a bad feeling to know people who you thought were friends not caring about W's actions. Many people will either not care - just "staying neutral" - or even take her side. The one thing about D is you'll learn who your true friends are. I knew right away about now-ExW's affair, before her/our friends and family, so I never had any of them hiding it from me though.
Toward the end of the party, W was texting AP and the friend she goes drinking with every weekend for about an hour straight and basically ignoring the remaining people at the party.
My ExW would text OM1 in the same room as me, in m y son's room while she "put him to bed"...even left S's 5th birthday party early to talk to him. It's so difficult when you're going through it, but you'll be alright in time and realize how awful her actions are and never want that again.
D18's BF even commented to D18 about it.
Yeah...it's a lot more obvious than the WS realizes.
The minute W's last friend left the house, she went to the bedroom and said she was getting ready to go out. I knew she was going to, despite the fact that it was her daughter's 18th bday but it still shocked me. D18 ended up guilting her into staying because she didn't get to spend much time with her on her bday or at her party. W reluctantly stayed home, sat on the couch texting for 2 hours, then went to sleep.
This is so familiar...texting in front of people, talking in other rooms, being upset or depressed when they're "held back" from meeting up with AP...even if it's their kids' birthday.
Watching her relationship with her kids slowly deteriorate is heartbreaking.
It's not your job to foster her relationship with her kids, but also prep yourself for your kids to still love their mom. As hard as it is, W is betraying you but your kids are still going to have a relationship with their mother - it's not fair to expect otherwise.
W still texts AP non-stop in front of me, still sleeps with her phone, still wanders outside to have phone calls with a girl friend, etc. I got good at laughing it off, but it's getting harder each day.
IHS is extremely difficult.
One more thing I've been thinking about. Neither of our families know what's going on except for my sister. With more birthdays and holidays coming up, it will be impossible to keep them in the dark much longer. I know W will not be at any of my family's events and the family BBQ she missed last month led to awkward questions the whole day. I haven't told my family because I don't want my mom to know. She won't be able to resist reaching out to W, and it will likely be in a negative way. W has had a rocky relationship with my family, especially my mom, and I don't want her ruining any of the work I've been doing with avoiding negative situations. I'll let W figure out when to let her family know. She will avoid it as long as possible, since they all love me and will likely try and talk sense into her, which is the last thing she wants. Is there an appropriate time/way to basically announce to the world that you are separated but living together? And do I just avoid specifics with my family and just say "We are working through some issues" or something along those lines?
Not sure what to advise you here - some will recommend "working through some issues" approach and not sharing details, others will say tell key people to bust the affair. I know what I wish I would've done now in my own sitch knowing what the outcome ended up being...but hindsight is 20/20 and your situation is not mine.
I messed up this morning and could use a bit of advice.
This morning I was getting ready for work and W commented that I looked nice and asked if I was trying to impress a girl. I smirked and did not respond. She then said that I owe it to her to let her know if I’m talking with anyone because I called her out for texting AP in the car with the kids one day about 6 weeks ago and used his name. I asked how those two things were related (first mistake, should have walked away). She said something about him just being a friend and that she can do whatever she wants. I walked away, was about to leave for work, and couldn’t help but respond.
I walked back and said something along the lines of “you can do whatever you want, but texting your “friend” all day long every day, even while lying next to me in bed, is completely disrespectful.” I also said something about how the one thing I asked of her (when I was in the begging stage) was to let me know if there is anyone else because I couldn’t handle going through her cheating on me again. When she said she wasn’t doing anything wrong, I said something about how I knew she would probably lie about it anyway. It was said while she was in the bathroom so couldn’t walk away from it. She got upset and told me to walk away, which I did. I left for work and then had this text message exchange:
W: You have lost your mind, do not ever come at me like that again. You legit triggered a panic attack and I haven’t done anything wrong! It has been clear that we are still here for the kids and you say one thing one day then come at me like this another day! I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore. Pinning me into a corner and demanding information out of me is not the way to go.
Me: I had no intention of triggering a panic attack and I can understand how upsetting that is. I agree that approach was not acceptable.
W: I’m legit crying now before work, thank you.
Me: We do need to talk about a few things whenever you are comfortable with it (At the time I was thinking we need to talk about her leaving the house)
W: Nope, not it’s time to let everyone know who you really are. I owe you zero explanations of my life other than my kids. This is not your house, it is mine as well…the bed, the couches, everything. If you would like I can make things more difficult for our children and go stay with (girl friend who lives 30 minutes away) if that is easier but as far as owing you any explanations of anything in my life other than my children, do not communicate with me. You have just lost me 100% friend and all. Thank you for making me late for work.
I did not respond to this.
Her staying at her friend’s house was something she was planning on doing early on. I was actually happy she brought it up again. She went there one day and then came back because her friend was “too controlling,” This was also during my “begging” stage, so I didn’t want her to go at the time. But since W brought it up again, I think it is the best situation as long as she doesn’t bring D4. It’s too far from her school and doesn’t really make sense logistically. I am already taking care her all day anyway. The only thing I don’t do is take her to school, which I can make work. That seems like the best solution, having W go there.
I feel stupid for cracking. My mind had been getting more frustrated, but my actions haven’t reflected that until today, but it’s been building as noted in previous post. Any advice would be much appreciated.
DW I am not sure what kind of advice you are looking for right now? It was hard to read the exchange between the two of you. You are being gaslighted by a woman who if I am reading this correctly is cheating now and has cheated in the past. I think at this point for your sanity it is best that she goes to your friend's house to give you some space.
DW17,
"Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."
Sounds like you know what you did wrong - you just have to work on your mental game for the future.
This morning I was getting ready for work and W commented that I looked nice and asked if I was trying to impress a girl. I smirked and did not respond.
The smirk and no response was perfect.
She then said that I owe it to her to let her know if I’m talking with anyone because I called her out for texting AP in the car with the kids one day about 6 weeks ago and used his name.
You don't owe her anything. She is cheating on you and wants to break up your marriage. Unless she ends her affair and recommits to her husband, you don't give her anything - stay strong.
I asked how those two things were related (first mistake, should have walked away).
This is where you started to falter. Don't get into a logical argument about anything. It's not a game you'll win because she's all emotion. It's not an Oxford debate team match.
I walked away, was about to leave for work,
Yes...
and couldn’t help but respond.
No! You could've helped yourself from responding, but you choose not to. Be stronger and more aware next time.
I walked back and said something along the lines of “you can do whatever you want, but texting your “friend” all day long every day, even while lying next to me in bed, is completely disrespectful.”
You're absolutely right - that is disrespectful. But what are you going to do about it? Complaining about disrespect or broken boundaries with no actions is weak.
I also said something about how the one thing I asked of her (when I was in the begging stage) was to let me know if there is anyone else because I couldn’t handle going through her cheating on me again.
You asked her to let you know if she was cheating? This sounds super weak. Stand up for yourself.
W: You have lost your mind, do not ever come at me like that again. You legit triggered a panic attack and I haven’t done anything wrong! It has been clear that we are still here for the kids and you say one thing one day then come at me like this another day! I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore. Pinning me into a corner and demanding information out of me is not the way to go.
You better be very careful about these exchanges. She's accusing you in written format about "come at me", "panic attack", "pinning me into a corner"...you wouldn't be the first to get tagged with a BS domestic abuse charge. Don't brush this off. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but you never know. You should consider starting to audio or video record interactions. Learn the laws in your state about recordings. Some are two party consent, others are one party consent.
I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore.
Don't buy into the "mental abuse" claim. LH is right...she's gaslighting you! She is cheating on you. Instead of blaming herself and recognizing her poor behaviors she's projecting it all onto you. SHE can't be responsible for her guilt and pain, so you are. Don't let her convince yourself you're a monster.
W: Nope, not it’s time to let everyone know who you really are.
Sounds like a very specific threat - prep yourself for things to get ugly. She'll tell her family and friends what a monster you are to justify her actions. Make sure you don't buy into it.
This is not your house, it is mine as well…the bed, the couches, everything. If you would like I can make things more difficult for our children and go stay with (girl friend who lives 30 minutes away) if that is easier
Honestly? That sounds ideal. DO NOT MOVE OUT. Let her do the moving. That may be in your best interest at this point.
but as far as owing you any explanations of anything in my life other than my children, do not communicate with me.
I agree with her there - honor her wishes and do not engage with her unless it's about the kids. Also, consult with one or more Ls ASAP.
You have just lost me 100% friend and all.
She is your W. You don't want her as a friend.
Thank you for making me late for work.
Obviously you did not "make her" be late for work.
I did not respond to this.
Her staying at her friend’s house was something she was planning on doing early on. I was actually happy she brought it up again.
Yes. If she voluntarily leaves the house on her own, that's ideal. Consult an L ASAP! Make sure you're ready to act if needed around the house and kid.
I think it is the best situation as long as she doesn’t bring D4.
Dpon't let her move anywhere with D4. Consult an L. A judge would likely keep the status quo with kid in the house, temprorarily at least.
That seems like the best solution, having W go there.
Yep.
You are being gaslighted by a woman who if I am reading this correctly is cheating now and has cheated in the past. I think at this point for your sanity it is best that she goes to your friend's house to give you some space.
LH is 100% right. Don't allow her gaslighting to break you mentally. SHE is the one cheating and doing wrong. Time to not engage anymore, and prep yourself for the next round.
LH19 - I'm not really sure what I was looking for either. Maybe a 2x4! I agree about her leaving. Having my nose rubbed in everything on a daily basis because we live together is not healthy for me and it's going to affect my kids if it hasn't already. I have doubts that she will actually go to her friends house as she's failed to take action on anything for the past 4 months, but I'll push for it.
Feeling like a doormat is rough. I've been wanting to stick up for myself and tell W how I feel about everything, but it goes against the DB rules. The status quo doesn't feel like it will work though. Time apart will either help with separation, or help fix it, but either way it should help me ignore things and sleep better.
Feeling like a doormat is rough. I've been wanting to stick up for myself and tell W how I feel about everything, but it goes against the DB rules.
Stick up for yourself through actions, not words. Don't have a long R talk whining about her cheating and how it makes you feel. Plenty of us have gone down that road and it rarely if ever works. Instead, take action! What if you helped pack up her stuff and have it ready for her when she comes home from work?
Time apart will either help with separation, or help fix it, but either way it should help me ignore things and sleep better.
It's a toss up with the former, but 98% chance it'll help the latter.
LH19 - I'm not really sure what I was looking for either. Maybe a 2x4!
I am happy to wack of you over the head with one if you would like?
I agree about her leaving. Having my nose rubbed in everything on a daily basis because we live together is not healthy for me and it's going to affect my kids if it hasn't already.
It isn't healthy. I am not a fan of IHS because it is typically soul suking to the LBS.
I have doubts that she will actually go to her friends house as she's failed to take action on anything for the past 4 months, but I'll push for it.
What do you mean push for it?
Feeling like a doormat is rough.
It is rough. Why do you feel like you're a doormat?
I've been wanting to stick up for myself and tell W how I feel about everything, but it goes against the DB rules.
So first off talk is cheap. Second off your W can give to $hits about how you feel. I only want to see actions from you.
The status quo doesn't feel like it will work though.
I agree. Affairs are not good for a marriage. Something needs to change.
Time apart will either help with separation, or help fix it, but either way it should help me ignore things and sleep better.
How do you think time away will help fix it?
I messed up this morning and could use a bit of advice.
This morning I was getting ready for work and W commented that I looked nice and asked if I was trying to impress a girl. I smirked and did not respond. She then said that I owe it to her to let her know if I’m talking with anyone because I called her out for texting AP in the car with the kids one day about 6 weeks ago and used his name. I asked how those two things were related (first mistake, should have walked away). She said something about him just being a friend and that she can do whatever she wants. I walked away, was about to leave for work, and couldn’t help but respond.
I walked back and said something along the lines of “you can do whatever you want, but texting your “friend” all day long every day, even while lying next to me in bed, is completely disrespectful.” I also said something about how the one thing I asked of her (when I was in the begging stage) was to let me know if there is anyone else because I couldn’t handle going through her cheating on me again. When she said she wasn’t doing anything wrong, I said something about how I knew she would probably lie about it anyway. It was said while she was in the bathroom so couldn’t walk away from it. She got upset and told me to walk away, which I did. I left for work and then had this text message exchange:
W: You have lost your mind, do not ever come at me like that again. You legit triggered a panic attack and I haven’t done anything wrong! It has been clear that we are still here for the kids and you say one thing one day then come at me like this another day! I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore. Pinning me into a corner and demanding information out of me is not the way to go.
Me: I had no intention of triggering a panic attack and I can understand how upsetting that is. I agree that approach was not acceptable.
W: I’m legit crying now before work, thank you.
Me: We do need to talk about a few things whenever you are comfortable with it (At the time I was thinking we need to talk about her leaving the house)
W: Nope, not it’s time to let everyone know who you really are. I owe you zero explanations of my life other than my kids. This is not your house, it is mine as well…the bed, the couches, everything. If you would like I can make things more difficult for our children and go stay with (girl friend who lives 30 minutes away) if that is easier but as far as owing you any explanations of anything in my life other than my children, do not communicate with me. You have just lost me 100% friend and all. Thank you for making me late for work.
I did not respond to this.
Her staying at her friend’s house was something she was planning on doing early on. I was actually happy she brought it up again. She went there one day and then came back because her friend was “too controlling,” This was also during my “begging” stage, so I didn’t want her to go at the time. But since W brought it up again, I think it is the best situation as long as she doesn’t bring D4. It’s too far from her school and doesn’t really make sense logistically. I am already taking care her all day anyway. The only thing I don’t do is take her to school, which I can make work. That seems like the best solution, having W go there.
I feel stupid for cracking. My mind had been getting more frustrated, but my actions haven’t reflected that until today, but it’s been building as noted in previous post. Any advice would be much appreciated.
So you fell off the horse....
Cowboy up, dust yourself off, get back on, and learn from this...
Something to be aware of with that ^^^
Most of the time, when these things happen, later today, she won't even remember this happened and it will be life as normal.
Don't dwell on it, and expect anything one way or another for now. IF she brings it up, own your part in it, yet don't over anal-ize things or over apologize either....
Sounds like she is having to work harder to make you into the monster that SHE needs you to be, to justify her decisions....
Don't be that guy....
She is more than likely projecting her actions onto you....
Biggest thing here is this :
I walked away, was about to leave for work, and couldn’t help but respond
Yes you could help it...
You CHOSE to respond....
Own your stuff....and do better next time...
Mistakes are only fatal if you don't learn from them...
Thanks guys for the advice. It really does help.
No! You could've helped yourself from responding, but you choose not to. Be stronger and more aware next time.
You're right, I could have just left. I stopped, thought about it and turned around. Stupid decision I won't make again.
You're absolutely right - that is disrespectful. But what are you going to do about it? Complaining about disrespect or broken boundaries with no actions is weak.
I’m starting to notice a theme for myself of not taking any actions. I guess I wasn’t sure what actions I am supposed to be taking here because I was under the impression that I should be ignoring what she is doing.
You asked her to let you know if she was cheating? This sounds super weak. Stand up for yourself.
Yes, super weak. Not sure why I said this. I was mad and just started saying things. Not my finest moment.
You better be very careful about these exchanges. She's accusing you in written format about "come at me", "panic attack", "pinning me into a corner"...you wouldn't be the first to get tagged with a BS domestic abuse charge. Don't brush this off. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but you never know. You should consider starting to audio or video record interactions. Learn the laws in your state about recordings. Some are two party consent, others are one party consent.
Those were my thoughts as well as soon as I read her text. I didn’t pin her, touch her, anything. Just stood in the doorway while I was talking. I wasn’t aggressive in any way. I’ll be careful. Hopefully there aren’t any more exchanges like this to worry about.
Honestly? That sounds ideal. DO NOT MOVE OUT. Let her do the moving. That may be in your best interest at this point.
I agree. I’m not going anywhere. And her leaving actually sounds nice to me. And I agree with you about D4 staying in the home. W did most of the leg work for us being foster parents and working with D4 when we first got her. She took care of most of the phone calls, meetings, physical therapy, home visits, etc. so I’m not sure how that’ll work out, but I bet an L can help me figure that out, hopefully this week.
I agree with her there - honor her wishes and do not engage with her unless it's about the kids. Also, consult with one or more Ls ASAP.
With all the nonsense she spews there is always a little truth sprinkled in somewhere. And I've reached out to 2 L's that I will be calling back again today.
She is your W. You don't want her as a friend.
I've told her already that I will not be her friend. It's all or nothing. I'm not sure she believes me or more likely I wasn’t firm enough about it. .
What do you mean push for it?
I mean that I will tell her that if she doesn’t want to be in a relationship with me, I think it’s best that she move in with her friend while we figure out what the next steps are.
Why do you feel like you're a doormat?
Thinking about this question is helping me see what my flaws right now are. I feel like a doormat because I am living with a woman who is most likely having an affair, whether physical or emotional, and I am at home trying not to upset the apple cart or say anything negative, not sleeping enough, venting to the few people who know what’s going on every chance I get and feeling like I’m being taken advantage of by my W. I’m taking care of everything for my house, pets and kids with no help from her while she is free to do and say anything she wants to.
But that mindset is where my problem lies. It sounds like a weak person who needs to go have some fun and GAL. There were a few reasons (bday party and college prep) that I didn’t do anything this weekend and that likely contributed to me focusing on the wrong things. I will make plans for this weekend before the end of the day.
How do you think time away will help fix it?
I worded that poorly but I meant that time apart will either makes things better or it won’t and I can’t control that.
Yes you could help it...
You CHOSE to respond....
Own your stuff....and do better next time...
Mistakes are only fatal if you don't learn from them...
Yup. There was a moment when I paused and I knew it was the wrong thing to do and I did it anyway. Can’t change it now, just gotta make sure I don’t do it again.
Most of the time, when these things happen, later today, she won't even remember this happened and it will be life as normal.
This will be interesting to see, as I’ve noticed that a few times in the past few weeks. When I’m expecting a storm, it’s calm. Not sure if this will be the same. I’ve gotten good at not saying sorry for things anymore. So would your recommendation be that I bring up the topic of W moving in with her friend or just not say anything? W moving feels better for both of us, but I’ve seen debate over whether that pushes the spouse away more easily. I probably shouldn’t even be thinking about things in those terms.
If I can be strong and focus on myself, I shouldn’t have a problem accepting that W will be gone every Saturday night to Sunday morning and be on her phone all day. I already prepare for it weekly anyway, which is why I knew she would try and bail after the bday party. I guess I just got weak because I wasn’t doing anything for myself which caused me to slowly focus more on W’s actions.
Thanks again to all who replied. This forum is awesome and I appreciate all of the valuable info you guys provide.
[quote="LH19”] I feel like a doormat because I am living with a woman who is most likely having an affair, whether physical or emotional, and I am at home trying not to upset the apple cart or say anything negative, not sleeping enough, venting to the few people who know what’s going on every chance I get and feeling like I’m being taken advantage of by my W. I’m taking care of everything for my house, pets and kids with no help from her while she is free to do and say anything she wants to.
So these are the big questions you have to dig down deep and be honest with yourself about. What do you think will happen if you upset the applecart?
When If I can be am strong and focus on myself, I wont shouldn’t have a problem accepting that W will be gone every Saturday night to Sunday morning and be on her phone all day. I already prepare for it weekly anyway, which is why I knew she would try and bail after the bday party. I guess I just got weak because I wasn’t doing anything for myself which caused me to slowly focus more on W’s actions.
Fixed that ^^^ for ya.....
So would your recommendation be that I bring up the topic of W moving in with her friend or just not say anything?
My advice would be to NOT ring any bells that you can't un-ring.....
Same as... stop asking questions that you don't want the answers to....
You are only a doormat IF you feel like one....
For now, who GAF what she is doing....place the focus on cleaning your side of the street....
For now....YOUR 'boundary' is your quicksand....
And until you can decide 100% what that is...
It's either your demise or your success....
You are so focused on what she is doing that you can't see the progress that you've made on yourself....
That's the reason that cars have such a large windshield and a small rear view mirror....
These interactions make me feel like I’m doing something right. It’s only been in the past week or so that I’ve stuck up for myself instead of living in fear of upsetting her. I assume it’ll take W a little time to adjust to that, but it’s nice no longer walking on eggshells in my own home.
You are one of only a handful of newbies that have made the correct changes quickly. Good job. Keep it up.
You are getting great guidance. Re-read your thread and solidify the advice into your new way of behaving.
Do not let fear control you. Trust you gut feelings. She is gaslighting you. Do some research on restraining orders.
Once again, all the veterans here are giving you wonderful advice.
Like usual, LH19 has hit the nail squarely on the head.
DW17 - you are in a toxic, abusive relationship. She is mentally abusing you, but simultaneously painting things as if you are doing it to her.
You need to be really careful validating things in writing.
This brings me to my next point … I think validating is one tool to use in a specific circumstance, but this site seems to just pedal it as a be-all solution to marriage problems.
If someone has ignored their partner, made them feel small, allowed them to build resentment for a long time, and their partner has slowly lose love and feels alone - validating is very important.
For someone who has a wayward, cheating, lying spouse on their hands, validating them is about as useful as t*ts on a bull.
Stop wasting your time trying to validate this woman. It’s not appropriate in your circumstance. She’s a cheat, an emotional manipulator, a liar and expert gaslighter who is taking advantage of a husband who has lost his confidence and lives in fear of losing her.
Now she has a pretty good, documented trail that you abused her that she can use in future proceedings. I think you should consult a lawyer ASAP to draft a response to those messages. She WILL use them if things get messy.
She wants to continue her affair, and she wants to feel good about it being the right thing - hence she constructed this argument and you played perfectly into her hands. Now she can go and show her friends and her AP what you wrote, and they’ll all tell her she’s doing the right thing.
We all fall off the horse sometimes.
I think you really need to ask yourself why you want to be with this woman. Try and take the emotion and fear of being alone out of it … what exactly is your motivation? I’m sorry to be frank, but she comes across as a toxic, manipulative POS to me. You should accept that sometimes, people change, or were never really who you thought they were.
Visit your lawyer first - but I wouldn’t even ask her to move out. I’d just wait until she goes away and move her stuff into storage while she’s gone.
And don’t take her bait!
I have banker boxes full of my communication with my X. Here is how I read the Emails/Texts. Things in red are red flags. DO NOT RESPOND. Document the truth. I would be keeping detailed notes on what really happened. It is a PIA, but you can give your journal to your legal team if/when needed to counter her claims. Document every interaction you have with her, and with the children. Times and dates. Key moments. Good and Bad. DO NOT BE ALONE WITH HER.
The things I strike out you ignore. The Bold you think about, agree with, then respond to after a certain amount of "thinking".
W: You have lost your mind, do not ever come at me like that again. You legit triggered a panic attack and I haven’t done anything wrong! It has been clear that we are still here for the kids and you say one thing one day then come at me like this another day! I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore. Pinning me into a corner and demanding information out of me is not the way to go.
W: Nope, now it’s time to let everyone know who you really are. I owe you zero explanations of my life other than my kids. This is not your house, it is mine as well…the bed, the couches, everything. If you would like I can make things more difficult for our children and go stay with (girl friend who lives 30 minutes away) if that is easier but as far as owing you any explanations of anything in my life other than my children, do not communicate with me. You have just lost me 100% friend and all. Thank you for making me late for work.
Always get legal advise, but I would respond today with:
H:"I have thought about your idea and I agree that it would be best if you go stay with Girlfriend"
I’ve got 2 L consultations scheduled for next Monday. And I’ve kept a record of each day since it was recommended here and I did describe the text message/”argument” situation in detail. That was really eye opening for me. The language seemed calculated. I never yelled/touched/or came within a few feet of her and left when asked. Trying to validate her feelings made it look even worse. Live and learn I guess.
When W got home from work yesterday, she informed me that she will be buying a bed and moving downstairs rather than moving into her friend’s house. She told D18 that it is because she cannot leave her kids. She also stated that she will be getting help from her friend to start the legal separation process while we figure out what to do with the house.
Then she started in with her tornado of thoughts/feelings/accusations – She was ready to move on when we came back from out of state but only stayed because I asked and she puts my needs above hers, because she stayed she is in a much worse mental state and she should have left earlier, she didn’t do anything wrong, I’m mentally abusive, if I wanted to stay with her I should have shown more sympathy, she cried then flipped to angry on a dime, etc. I mostly stayed quiet. She tried taking the conversation in directions I refused to go, so I told her this was not an appropriate time to discuss these things. She basically did all of the things I’ve learned here to expect from her. I did not escalate anything and barely engaged.
As Kind18 suggested, I asked myself why I want to be with W.
#1 is to ensure D4 lives the best life possible. That is literally the exact reason we chose to adopt – to give a child the best life possible. That is the single hardest part of this situation for me.
#2 is because I know W will need someone around her who actually understands her situation (past/present) to help her if she ever moves on from whatever is going on in her head right now. I am confident that her circle of friends/family/AP are incapable of that. I am being fired from that job right now and it is entirely out of my control if I get rehired. I may not even want that job in the future. I don’t even know if I want it today. But I know I will be hurt if she hits rock bottom and has nowhere else to turn. Maybe this is attachment still. I'm not sure. It'll be hard to stop caring about someone though, especially after 22 years.
I feel weirdly comfortable with everything right now. I have a tendency to overreact to or overanalyze individual things, but yesterday was the first time I think I truly thought about things from the perspective of a separated couple rather than a man trying to save his marriage. I reread my whole thread and you guys have been great with the help. It’s time to take your advice and start posting about my attempts at GAL and what’s going on with me. I’ll ask for guidance as needed, but I feel like you guys have me on the right path. Thanks!
It’s time to take your advice and start posting about my attempts at GAL and what’s going on with me.
Make the master bedroom manly. Big picture of motorcycles, or boats, ect. Go buy a manly bedspread that you like. New sheets.
Check out LFA on youtube.
Good recommendation on LFA, thanks.
DW, sorry to hear about your story. I did the same thing, just with no kids.
Take advantage of this time. You're stronger than you know.
DW17,
I’ve got 2 L consultations scheduled for next Monday.
Good! Those consultations can't come soon enough.
And I’ve kept a record of each day since it was recommended here and I did describe the text message/”argument” situation in detail.
Smart.
The language seemed calculated.
Yes. I'd be very wary about that language.
She told D18 that it is because she cannot leave her kids.
D18 isn't an idiot. She knows exactly what your W is up to.
Then she started in with her tornado of thoughts/feelings/accusations
She can't possibility be responsible for her own unhappiness and her own bad actions. It has to be someone else. Who better to blame but her spouse? She's projecting her guilt and anger onto you.
she puts my needs above hers
She's not going to put anyone's needs above her own right now - not her spouses, not her children. It's all about her right now. WS is the definition of selfishness.
She is gaslighting you. DO NOT believe her BS. Do not allow her to make you blame yourself for her bad actions. She is having an affair (not her first). She is staying out all night drinking while her children are at home. That is not on you. You may have made mistakes and not been perfect - no one is - but don't believe you're to blame for her affair and her mental state.
I did not escalate anything and barely engaged.
Good. Don't be afraid to end it and walk away if she's lying, gaslighting, and manipulating. It's OK to stand up for yourself - you doing that isn't going to be the reason she leaves.
#1 is to ensure D4 lives the best life possible. That is literally the exact reason we chose to adopt – to give a child the best life possible. That is the single hardest part of this situation for me.
I hear you on D4. Unfortunately that's entirely out of your hands. The only thing you can do is accept that, and be the best dad for D4 you can, regardless of W's decisions.
But I know I will be hurt if she hits rock bottom and has nowhere else to turn.
Hitting rock bottom just might be the only way she'll change course. You can't stop her from taking this path.
Maybe this is attachment still. I'm not sure. It'll be hard to stop caring about someone though, especially after 22 years.
Understandable. 22 years is a long time. Detachment is a process. It'll take time. Actually, it would be odd if you could 100% detach on a dime.
I feel weirdly comfortable with everything right now.
Good! That's great. However, prepare yourself that things will come in waves. You've got a lot to process through over the next few years. You'll feel good and strong at times, and sad and lonely and angry at others. Just know that. The key is you're trending upwards.
DW, I cycled between feeling comfortable and fine with whatever happened, to almost panic attacks about losing my marriage. And every point in between. So just realize that the rollercoaster is real. Resolve to never make decisions based on pure emotions.
DW, I cycled between feeling comfortable and fine with whatever happened, to almost panic attacks about losing my marriage. And every point in between. So just realize that the rollercoaster is real. Resolve to never make decisions based on pure emotions.
@SteveLW, I had asked you in your thread. Are you taking about now or the situation before piecing?
@DW17, many things in your sitch is not dissimilar to mine. But you are going through more difficulty as your WW is not just displaying classic behaviors (gaslighting, manipulating, deliberating disrespecting) but the enormity of her affair, night outs etc is a lot to handle. Hang in there. Great that you are having an honest discussion with yourself. Stay strong and GAL GAL GAL.
#2 is because I know W will need someone around her who actually understands her situation (past/present) to help her if she ever moves on from whatever is going on in her head right now. I am confident that her circle of friends/family/AP are incapable of that. I am being fired from that job right now and it is entirely out of my control if I get rehired. I may not even want that job in the future. I don’t even know if I want it today. But I know I will be hurt if she hits rock bottom and has nowhere else to turn. Maybe this is attachment still. I'm not sure. It'll be hard to stop caring about someone though, especially after 22 years.
Detaching from the madness is not the same as not caring...
You can still love her from a distance. Yet still not allow her to dictate your emotions to you.
Letting her own her crap, and watching from a safe distance is whats best for YOU...
All of that may or may not happen...
She may allow you to see it IF it does happen...
However, you can't get caught up in the when, where, how, who, and if of that...
She's spinning right now, grasping at straws trying to lay her problems at your feet...
I can't see one reason why you should both be spinning.
The more conflicted she feels, the more fuel (anger) she is going to burn trying to get away.
Don't buy any of it right now. Recognize what it is and how it affects you.
She has to do this....you can't do it for her.
You can't fix any of this for her. And that goes against the normal male behavioral pattern. We are by nature...'fixers' ....
You are gonna fight that urge more than anything else.
When, and if she is ready, you'll know
I feel weirdly comfortable with everything right now. I have a tendency to overreact to or overanalyze individual things, but yesterday was the first time I think I truly thought about things from the perspective of a separated couple rather than a man trying to save his marriage. I reread my whole thread and you guys have been great with the help. It’s time to take your advice and start posting about my attempts at GAL and what’s going on with me. I’ll ask for guidance as needed, but I feel like you guys have me on the right path. Thanks!
It's the bounce...
One minute you are up, the next you feel like a dump truck is parked on you...
Know that it's gonna happen, and let the good times propel you through the rough times...
That's why GAL is important. You hopefully will distract yourself so much that you aren't sitting around dwelling on your situation.
GAL is also a fake it until you make it. Some of your GAL will stick with you, some will fall away in time. The trick is to try it all. Face your fears, and do the stuff you have always said you would never do.. yet secretly always wanted to do...
You also need to set some self goals, ones that do not include her or your situation. Some small goals just for you.
What are some things for you ??
1-turkish bath house
2-
3-
4-
5-
I started it for you. I know LH loved this one
: )
Gearing up for the weekend and trying to finalize a few plans. Thanks as always for the support here. Quick update before I get to my own activities.
Since my last post, W has been adamant about taking care of D4 to the point of not really allowing me to do much. She stated that D4 is her child and her responsibility. She is concerned about me stealing D4 away from her. She has insisted on picking her up from school each day and we are taking separate cars to soccer games/practices. Her reasoning for separate cars is that I told her I didn’t want to be in the car with her texting AP the entire time (during my slip up the other morning). I got what I asked for and I’m happy with it. The weird thing about the new found child caring is that W hasn’t taken care of daily responsibilities for D4 in 4 full months. I don’t know what flipped that particular switch – fear, regret, D4’s attachment to me, a conversation with someone, attorney, etc, but I will bring this up in the consultations on Mon for advice in the event W tries to actually prevent me from doing things for D4.
I informed W I won’t be going to the pumpkin patch next weekend with her cousin’s family a few hours away, which is hard because it’s a thing I look forward to each year and I love her cousin’s family as much as my own. Her cousin might be the only person in both our lives that has always had unconditional support for us and our kids. W said we have to figure out things for the kids and I should be there. Her cousin will be crushed whenever she finds out our sitch, so I think that’s why she wants me to go. Still thinking it over but leaning toward not going.
Lastly, W hasn’t progressed with or mentioned getting a bed for downstairs. Nor has she said anything about legal separation paperwork. And she’s been mostly nice the past 2 days, trying to initiate friendly conversations, texting me this morning that she hopes I have a good day and getting frustrated when I “ignore” her. I’ve been keeping my words short and generally just avoiding her, but not trying to be rude with my responses. I view this as the next stop on her wheel of emotions and will not react to it one way or another.
Now for me, I’ve got a 4 day weekend due to a dentist appt & holiday and I’m filling it up as much as possible. Got a few things planned with the kids, going to my dad’s for his bday, and trying to iron out some plans with friends. I am going to a Halloween party at the end of the month and I will hopefully have an upcoming soccer match to get tickets for, pending results of the next game. Playoff baseball is around the corner and a friend reached out to go watch games somewhere. Game times don’t work for the first series, so hopefully our team advances. And I have my bday coming up soon, so trying to make plans there as well. I’m staying in contact with as many people as possible and things are slowly filling in my schedule. It’s a start, but it’d be nice to have more concrete plans.
As for the self-goals, I did look into Turkish bath houses. Might try that on my bday. Not sure yet, but I did find the place I will go to, it’s just a matter of when and with whom.
1 – Turkish bath house (the one I found is actually Russian, but close enough)
2 – There’s a small mountain nearby I want to hike to the top of
3 – Hit my current weight goal (8lbs to go) by the end of the month
4 – Reconnect with at least 2 more friends and make plans with them
5 – Run a 10k that’s coming up next month
These all seem like easily achievable goals in the near future. Thanks for the suggestion Mach1.
I like everything about this update - except her trying to keep D4 away from you.
Someone (friend/lawyer) has been in her ear about child support payments and that it’s in her financial interests that she get maximum custody of D4.
You need to reverse that trend ASAP. Maximise time and interaction with D4, including doing lots of fun things so she enjoys spending time with you. I’ve seen this a hundred times with my friends - sudden changes in care arrangements is ALWAYS related to a WAW/WW wanting to maximise how much money they can take from you during divorce.
I’m not saying you have to… but have you thought about buying the downstairs bed for her? Something to consider. I know I couldn’t sleep in the same bed as someone engaging in an affair.
Kind18 - No I haven't thought about buying the bed for her, but I'll consider it. I've been maximizing my time with D4 for the past few months and it's been great. She's an awesome kid and fun to hang out with which makes it even easier. Even though we took separate cars, I played with her D4 during D6's practice (D6 was our previous foster child - we signed her up for and take her to soccer) and I played with her at D18's game yesterday. And I did get her ready for school today. So aside from W insisting on driving D4 around, it seems like the rest (getting her dressed, baths, etc) may have been a one-off. That didn't take long, but these daily emotional changes are obnoxious.
A few days ago W and I talked about going to the bank today to split out accounts. W originally agreed, but when reminded this morning she said she didn't know if she would go. I hope she does because it's a pain to change my direct deposit at my work. Last time I had to it got messed up and I missed 3 paychecks. The bank said I can't kick her off of my account without her there. I believe I can take myself off of her account though.
This morning W complimented me before work, randomly asked to see my phone (I pivoted to getting D4 ready for school) she sent me another "have a wonderful day" message (she hadn't said this once prior to this week), and sent a random selfie from work that I did not reply to. It feels like she’s trying to pull me back in, but you guys said to expect this and I'm not getting sucked back into her web. I'll continue to keep my responses short, try to follow the advice I've been getting and stay as busy as I can this weekend. It’s helpful when the things you tell me to expect play out in reality. Makes it easier to see what’s actually happening and prevent me from misinterpreting things.
It’s time to take your advice and start posting about my attempts at GAL and what’s going on with me.
Make the master bedroom manly. Big picture of motorcycles, or boats, ect. Go buy a manly bedspread that you like. New sheets.
Check out LFA on youtube.
If you do buy a new bed, you might as well buy one you want and give her the old one. Just a thought.
DW17,
I’m not saying you have to… but have you thought about buying the downstairs bed for her? Something to consider. I know I couldn’t sleep in the same bed as someone engaging in an affair.
Kind18 - No I haven't thought about buying the bed for her, but I'll consider it.
If you do buy a new bed, you might as well buy one you want and give her the old one. Just a thought.
I get the psychology / strength aspect of it, but wouldn't waste your time making her life easier and more comfortable. She's a big girl; she can fend for herself. You spend that bed shopping time in the gym instead. Maybe have an air mattress from Amazon...let her sleep on that!
I hope she does because it's a pain to change my direct deposit at my work. Last time I had to it got messed up and I missed 3 paychecks. The bank said I can't kick her off of my account without her there. I believe I can take myself off of her account though.
Don't "hope" in W's actions. That's passive and weak. Take charge. It takes less than two minsto create a new online bank account, and it can't be that complicated to change direct deposits from work - make it happen.
This morning W complimented me before work, randomly asked to see my phone (I pivoted to getting D4 ready for school) she sent me another "have a wonderful day" message (she hadn't said this once prior to this week), and sent a random selfie from work that I did not reply to. It feels like she’s trying to pull me back in, but you guys said to expect this and I'm not getting sucked back into her web. I'll continue to keep my responses short, try to follow the advice I've been getting and stay as busy as I can this weekend.
Good stuff! Keep being attractive and mysterious. Make her wonder.
[quote=Kind18]It’s helpful when the things you tell me to expect play out in reality. Makes it easier to see what’s actually happening and prevent me from misinterpreting things.
Indeed. Knowledge is power.
I’m not saying you have to… but have you thought about buying the downstairs bed for her? Something to consider. I know I couldn’t sleep in the same bed as someone engaging in an affair.
Kind18 - No I haven't thought about buying the bed for her, but I'll consider it.
If you do buy a new bed, you might as well buy one you want and give her the old one. Just a thought.
I get the psychology / strength aspect of it, but wouldn't waste your time making her life easier and more comfortable. She's a big girl; she can fend for herself. You spend that bed shopping time in the gym instead. Maybe have an air mattress from Amazon...let her sleep on that!
Lots of choices. Evaluate the options. Make a decision. Execute the plan. Live with the consequences (good or bad).
This weekend went pretty well. I went with a friend to grab drinks and watch some playoff baseball. Later that night W did her standard night out/see you tomorrow routine so I did movie night with D4. The next morning we were out of the house before W got home. We went to a park and went to my dad's house for his bday. We stopped at a large bridge on the way to check out the view. Got to spend time with family which was nice and talk about things with my sister, who is the only family member of mine that knows what's going on. W was in her room when we got back and pretty much stayed there the rest of the day.
Today I met with 2 lawyers. I'm not sure how helpful it was, but it solidified some thoughts I had which is nice. They both said if I get divorced I'll be financially screwed between child support, alimony and whatever my new rent/mortgage is. They also both said I probably won't be able to help D18 pay for college. Also, I am pretty much stuck selling the house, even though neither of us wants to. I was kind of expecting it, but was hopeful they might have some other recommendation. So that's fun. Part of me wants to drag it out and enjoy things while I have the money to do it, part of me wants a quick resolution so I can move on with life. I don't want to be a jerk, but I also don't want to be walked on.
Lots of choices. Evaluate the options. Make a decision. Execute the plan. Live with the consequences (good or bad)
This seems to apply to everything going on right now. I've got the info that I need. Time to make some decisions.
The last couple of days have been weird and I’m still struggling with which decisions to make on a few things. I found out that W has in fact told all of her family about our separation, which is fine but adds some awkwardness things. She has also talked with a friend who filed for divorce by having her and her husband fill out the paperwork and just having a L review everything at the end to save money. W said she intends to do the same thing eventually, which will only cause problems if we can’t agree on the big items. I don’t think she has a clue how much child support and alimony she is entitled to per the L’s I talked to. They didn’t give $ amounts, but said she would be better off than me. If we work through things without her getting a L, do I even bring this up, or just let her sift through it on her own and only fight it if I don’t like the results? Do I just try to avoid any talk about D altogether? Previous conversations seemed like she was just venting and would move on the next day. Her words the past few days seem like actual plans. Maybe I just need to give it some time and try not to react too much in either direction, as her current plan extends out until June when D18 graduates. A lot can and likely will change by then. But for the first time it feels like D is inevitable.
I got roped into a discussion about D plans when I told W that we need to split our bills for next month. L told me to divide the bills before I split our accounts so I don’t get stuck paying for everything myself without having access to the other acct if W doesn’t agree, which makes sense. W resisted at first because she needs to “save money so she can move out”, which she has said for 2 months without saving a penny. Yesterday she said she’d be willing to pay some of them. I’m going to plan it out tonight and go over it with her tomorrow.
W’s biggest concern right now is making sure we don’t mess up D18’s senior year of high school so she wants us to work together, even if that means her moving downstairs until D18 is done with school. I’m still not sure how to handle this situation. She suggests things but doesn’t actually do them. Is the cake eating until I make a decision so she can paint me as the bad guy? I know you guys have given advice here, but do I just basically kick her out of the room? If she asks why, do I mention her texting OM all day? (No, because I’m not supposed to talk about OM) Or do I just say that separated people don’t sleep in the same bed? Do I just ignore it and let things play out until our eventual D? I’d rather be the decision maker than the person waiting to see what happens, but it still feels like the wrong move either way.
I’ve been trying to balance being friendly with being distant lately. W has gotten mad at me for lack of communication and ignoring her, which is probably justified. I read in a post here that if you are ignoring, you are doing things wrong. I’m by no means wanting to nice her back, as I know that doesn’t work, but it feels like there’s something to be said for at least enjoying your time around each other before it’s gone. I don’t want to be in the friend zone, but it also feels weird having such minimal communication and it has led to some confusion/frustration over daily plans. I don’t know. I think I may have pivoted a little too far toward ignoring and may need to shift a little more toward aloof yet available, while being conscious of my boundaries of not doing things for her. Just being friendly and validating her feelings. Or maybe I was doing things right and I should continue with that. It’s a tough line to walk.
My wife’s cousin reached out to me to offer support and asked me to join them at the pumpkin patch this weekend. I decided that I will go. I look forward to it every year. She has been pretty much the only constant support for me, W and the kids through our entire relationship, even though she lives 3 hours away. I’ve been closer to her family than my own. It feels like the right decision.
On a good note, W reverted back to not taking care of D4, so my concerns about her trying to keep me from her thankfully only lasted 2 days. And I am on to a new book “Codependent No More.” I’ve gotten good info from each book I’ve read. Hopefully this one does as well. Also, I PR’d a 5k last night and I’m 5 pounds from my weight goal. Longer post than I intended. I hope everyone is doing well.
She has also talked with a friend who filed for divorce by having her and her husband fill out the paperwork and just having a L review everything at the end to save money. W said she intends to do the same thing eventually, which will only cause problems if we can’t agree on the big items.
This is actually a really good idea IF you guys can come to an agreement.
I don’t think she has a clue how much child support and alimony she is entitled to per the L’s I talked to. They didn’t give $ amounts, but said she would be better off than me. If we work through things without her getting a L, do I even bring this up, or just let her sift through it on her own and only fight it if I don’t like the results?
YOU LET HER FIGURE OUT ON HER OWN.
Do I just try to avoid any talk about D altogether?
You don't bring it up and if she asks questions about it just say "I need to think about it".
Previous conversations seemed like she was just venting and would move on the next day. Her words the past few days seem like actual plans.
What's going to happen is going to happen DW. You have zero control over it right now.
Maybe I just need to give it some time and try not to react too much in either direction, as her current plan extends out until June when D18 graduates. A lot can and likely will change by then. But for the first time it feels like D is inevitable.
What do you mean react too much in either direction?
W’s biggest concern right now is making sure we don’t mess up D18’s senior year of high school so she wants us to work together, even if that means her moving downstairs until D18 is done with school.
Your W is at least thinking about her children. Not all can say that.
I’m still not sure how to handle this situation. She suggests things but doesn’t actually do them. Is the cake eating until I make a decision so she can paint me as the bad guy? I know you guys have given advice here, but do I just basically kick her out of the room? If she asks why, do I mention her texting OM all day? (No, because I’m not supposed to talk about OM) Or do I just say that separated people don’t sleep in the same bed? Do I just ignore it and let things play out until our eventual D? I’d rather be the decision maker than the person waiting to see what happens, but it still feels like the wrong move either way.
What decision are your making? Well technically you can't kick her out of the room. You can suggest she sleeps elsewhere. Why does it feel like the wrong move either way?
W has gotten mad at me for lack of communication and ignoring her, which is probably justified.
Why are you ignoring her?
I read in a post here that if you are ignoring, you are doing things wrong.
Depends on what you are ignoring
I’m by no means wanting to nice her back, as I know that doesn’t work, but it feels like there’s something to be said for at least enjoying your time around each other before it’s gone.
Why would you enjoy spending time with someone who has multiple affairs and is planning to leave you?
I don’t want to be in the friend zone, but it also feels weird having such minimal communication and it has led to some confusion/frustration over daily plans.
What is confusion/frustration over daily plans?
I don’t know. I think I may have pivoted a little too far toward ignoring and may need to shift a little more toward aloof yet available, while being conscious of my boundaries of not doing things for her.
You shouldn't ignore her your answers should be brief and you should not be available because you should always be out doing something.
Just being friendly and validating her feelings. Or maybe I was doing things right and I should continue with that. It’s a tough line to walk.
You are way over thinking it. How you act right now has zero effect on her decision.
My wife’s cousin reached out to me to offer support and asked me to join them at the pumpkin patch this weekend. I decided that I will go. I look forward to it every year. She has been pretty much the only constant support for me, W and the kids through our entire relationship, even though she lives 3 hours away. I’ve been closer to her family than my own. It feels like the right decision.
The right decision based on what?
She has also talked with a friend who filed for divorce by having her and her husband fill out the paperwork and just having a L review everything at the end to save money. W said she intends to do the same thing eventually
Perfect, let her fill out the paperwork and give you copy. Then you take your time to read and process it. Before that happens, you privately draw up your own. That way you have an idea on what you think is fair.
which will only cause problems if we can’t agree on the big items.
To clarify, did she say this (which is how you stated it) or do you think this (Which is what I believe you meant).
Do I just try to avoid any talk about D altogether?
The rule is "Do not initiate." When she initiates, you intently listen, like it is the only thing that matters. Do not let it drag on. At some point, you can state "Thanks for sharing. I will need some time to think about what you said. I have to go now. I have something important to do"
she needs to “save money so she can move out”, which she has said for 2 months without saving a penny. Yesterday she said she’d be willing to pay some of them. I’m going to plan it out tonight and go over it with her tomorrow.
First thing I would do when discussing this is to ask her "How soon do you think you can move out?" I do not know how to articulate how important this statement is. First, you are supporting her decision (Even if you do not agree with her). You are not arguing with her.
W’s biggest concern right now is making sure we don’t mess up D18’s senior year of high school so she wants us to work together, even if that means her moving downstairs until D18 is done with school. I’m still not sure how to handle this situation.
Lots of choices. List some ideas out. We can't do all the work for you. Think this out here. We will give our 2 cents.
She suggests things but doesn’t actually do them.
Take action to make them happen. Respectfully move her stuff downstairs.
but it still feels like the wrong move either way.
You are using the wrong ruler. Is this what LH19 would do? Is it what PDT would do? Did I make a plan and stick with the plan?
I read in a post here that if you are ignoring, you are doing things wrong.
It all depends on what you are ignoring and why. The goal is to reduce resentment.
it feels like there’s something to be said for at least enjoying your time around each other before it’s gone.
She does not enjoy being around you. She wants out. Best thing to do is GAL and possibly have her miss you. What are you enjoying about being around her anyway? Texting OM?
What do you mean react too much in either direction?
My mind reacting positively or negatively to my thoughts about the future. As you’ve said several times, I can’t control that and I should not even be thinking about it.
What decision are your making? Well technically you can't kick her out of the room. You can suggest she sleeps elsewhere. Why does it feel like the wrong move either way?
The decision I’m referring to is kicking her out of the room. Is she just staying there until I tell her to move downstairs so she can have something to get mad at me about? I’m not sure, but I probably shouldn’t even care if she gets mad at me. It feels like the wrong move either way because I’m trying to balance being assertive and kicking her out of the room with trying not to create a confrontational daily environment. But she is the one who has created that environment so I shouldn't be worried about it.
She keeps telling me that I am ignoring her and she’s said it enough that I’m starting to believe it. Usually it’s when I don’t give direct answers to questions and say “I need to think about it” or something similar. She also mentions when I don’t respond to texts/phone calls right away. The thing I should probably ignore is when W tells me to stop ignoring her.
What is confusion/frustration over daily plans?
Because I don't talk/text with her as much, things with D18 (college/work/soccer/school) and coordinating our schedules has failed several times. If I have plans, I keep forgetting to mention them to her which has upset her. For example, I forgot to tell her about the Halloween party I'm going to and it's on a Saturday which is "her day" according to her, so she is mad about it. Apparently I'm supposed to have Fridays only to go out, which is news to me.
Why would you enjoy spending time with someone who has multiple affairs and is planning to leave you?
I worded that poorly. I don’t necessarily mean enjoying my time around her, I mean having an amicable relationship. We are stuck in the same house for the time being and it seems like it’s better for everyone if we aren’t arguing every day. But as I think about it, we haven’t been arguing every day, even as I’ve been short with communication.
The right decision based on what?
Going to the pumpkin patch seems like the right decision for me based on my love of her cousin’s family. The situation with W and I doesn’t change that. They don’t live close, so there aren’t a ton of opportunities to see them, and there will likely be far fewer, if any, for me in the future. D4 (and D6) won’t understand why I’m not there either. It’s been a yearly tradition, and I feel like this year at least, I should be there.
You are way over thinking it. How you act right now has zero effect on her decision.
I think most of what is going through my head the past 2 days can be summed up here. I am way overthinking things. After talking with the L’s about divorce related things and W starting up a convo about them too, then talking to my sister about those conversations, I started overanalyzing things again. There is definitely fear of the future as well. The L’s both had me scared I’ll be living in a 500 sqft box for the next 14 years. I know it won’t be that bad, but it felt that way.
Thanks LH for the reply. Even when I have rambling thoughts, you guys help keep me from veering too far. I appreciate it.
Ready2Change, thanks for the input as well. Seems like you and LH19 are on the same page with your advice. I'll try to re-read the threads when my thoughts start wandering and seek advice for more specific situations when they come up.
To clarify, did she say this (which is how you stated it) or do you think this (Which is what I believe you meant).
Sorry for the confusion, she did not say this. I believe it will only be problematic if we can’t agree on custody or what to do with the house.
D it seems like you know the answers to your own questions. You aren’t ignoring her you are just not giving her the answers she wants so she’s fighting back. The minute you engage you lose. Keep focusing on you and the children.
I'm going to and it's on a Saturday which is "her day" according to her, so she is mad about it. Apparently I'm supposed to have Fridays only to go out, which is news to me.
It seems like you need to take more charge or just be more up front about some of these things. In this instance, did the two of you ever discuss this or has she somehow just decided Saturday is her night? The response I believe you shouid have used is, “I’m sorry if I’m forgetting this but did we discuss Friday being my night out and Saturday being yours? Make her substantiate these things not just make them up and expect you to fall in line. If it was discussed and you forgot, then own it and tell her that. If not, stand up for yourself and say, “we can discuss it now, how about we alternate.” Don’t let her set the rules and you have to obey and obeyed.
Same with the bedroom. You can’t kick her out but do not move out either. If she wants her own space, she moves. If not, you are staying in your bedroom with our without her.
Take some charge of this.
It seems like you need to take more charge or just be more up front about some of these things. In this instance, did the two of you ever discuss this or has she somehow just decided Saturday is her night? The response I believe you shouid have used is, “I’m sorry if I’m forgetting this but did we discuss Friday being my night out and Saturday being yours? Make her substantiate these things not just make them up and expect you to fall in line. If it was discussed and you forgot, then own it and tell her that. If not, stand up for yourself and say, “we can discuss it now, how about we alternate.” Don’t let her set the rules and you have to obey and obeyed.
Very good advice.
Listen to her. Process what she is saying. Make a decision. Lead. She will respect you more.
Thank you both for the input. I agree about being more upfront about things and taking charge of situations. As far as the bedroom, W got a bed yesterday and put it downstairs. I had expressed previously that I would not be leaving the bedroom and that the sleeping arrangement was not working. So she found a cheap bed somewhere and moved down there last night. I was trying to figure out what to do and it turns out I just needed another 12 hours of patience and the problem was resolved.
We also briefly discussed setting a plan for boundaries/schedules/time with the kids the other day. This will be a good opportunity for me to take the lead on those actions.
...it turns out I just needed another 12 hours of patience and the problem was resolved....
That was her leading
We also briefly discussed setting a plan for boundaries/schedules/time with the kids the other day. This will be a good opportunity for me to take the lead on those actions.
You split the cookie and let her pick:
H:"Do you want to split the weekend with the kids,One parent gets Sat, the other Sun? or alternate weekends?"
H:"Do you want to include Friday night as part of the weekend with the kids?"
At this point, I do not believe you should quibble over which way to split. You just stand firm that you both should have equal parenting time. The goal is to reduce confusion by having a schedule that is predictable. Let her know that you are willing to be flexible and are willing to negotiate exceptions as they come up, as long as you are given reasonable notice.
I was trying to figure out what to do and it turns out I just needed another 12 hours of patience and the problem was resolved.
This is a good lesson for LBS. Sometimes we spend all this time and mental energy trying to work things out, choose the right solution, analyse what they’ve said/done … and then it all just resolves itself and we realise we’ve wasted bucketloads thinking about it.
Remember this next time you are wound up or trying to analyse or solve a problem - 99% of the time, it will solve itself.
You’re better off letting things happen and instead spending your time doing GAL and having fun. Even in the middle of a divorce, the world keeps turning.
DW17,
This weekend went pretty well. I went with a friend to grab drinks and watch some playoff baseball.
Good!
Later that night W did her standard night out/see you tomorrow routine so I did movie night with D4.
She doesn't own rights to that night - it's ok for you to get out and do something. What if next week you told her you were going to be out...and then left.
The next morning we were out of the house before W got home.
I think it's great you get out of there with D4 before she arrives home.
Today I met with 2 lawyers. I'm not sure how helpful it was, but it solidified some thoughts I had which is nice.
It's helpful in the sense you know where you stand legally. Now you're empowered to accept or reject W's D offer...if it comes to that. She offers a fair deal to you under the law, or better yet a favorable deal to you...accept it! She offers an unfavorable deal under the law...reject it. Run anything by a L before accepting (without her telling her).
They both said if I get divorced I'll be financially screwed between child support, alimony and whatever my new rent/mortgage is.
Drives me nuts that the bad party has no penalty for their actions. They broke a vow. Really, broke a contract...but often times get rewarded financially. It feels like the affair should at least void any spousal support. But the law is the law.
She has also talked with a friend who filed for divorce by having her and her husband fill out the paperwork and just having a L review everything at the end to save money. W said she intends to do the same thing eventually, which will only cause problems if we can’t agree on the big items.
Good! Now YOU know where you stand under the law. Let her make an offer and if it's fair or favorable (under the law) accept it.
I don’t think she has a clue how much child support and alimony she is entitled to per the L’s I talked to.
Good! Let your knowledge and her ignorance be your advantage.
If we work through things without her getting a L, do I even bring this up, or just let her sift through it on her own and only fight it if I don’t like the results?
DO NOT share ANY legal knowledge with her. SHE is the cheater. It's a business negotiation now. You protect you (and the kids of course). If she wants to leave and wants it to be easy, let her ignorantly give you a better deal.
Do I just try to avoid any talk about D altogether?
Right. DB'ing would say no R talks. Don't block her from leaving (you can't anyway), but don't help her either.
But for the first time it feels like D is inevitable.
It's BD - and likely even before that - D was extremely likely.
W’s biggest concern right now is making sure we don’t mess up D18’s senior year of high school so she wants us to work together, even if that means her moving downstairs until D18 is done with school.
What do you think is best for D18 (and your other kids)? If you agree, then go along with it. From now on before you make any decision you should consider "what is best for the kids?".
do I just basically kick her out of the room?
No sure you can force her out, but packing up her stuff and putting it in the basement with an air mattress might resign her to it.
W has gotten mad at me for lack of communication and ignoring her, which is probably justified.
Listen very closely. W is going to be mad at you no matter what you do. She is likely feeling guilty and bad about herself due to her actions and will project that on you.
Even if you walked on eggshells and tried to appease her 110% she's still going to lash out at you for something. One example on here we used recently is it's her birthday and you get her a card/present she'll be upset because she told you she needs space and is done and you're not listening, but if you don't get anything for her she'll use it as an example of how you don't care and it justifies her affair/leaving.
Your goal IS NOT to avoid making her mad. Your goal is to do what's best for you and your kids.
I don’t know. I think I may have pivoted a little too far toward ignoring and may need to shift a little more toward aloof yet available, while being conscious of my boundaries of not doing things for her. Just being friendly and validating her feelings. Or maybe I was doing things right and I should continue with that. It’s a tough line to walk.
You're overthinking it IMO. Don't spend time thinking about how you should act for her benefit - you do you at this point.
My wife’s cousin reached out to me to offer support and asked me to join them at the pumpkin patch this weekend. I decided that I will go. I look forward to it every year. She has been pretty much the only constant support for me, W and the kids through our entire relationship, even though she lives 3 hours away. I’ve been closer to her family than my own. It feels like the right decision.
Not sure that's the best decision. Your time might be better spent in the gym or watching more baseball with friends...but also don't think it's going to make or break the situation.
And I am on to a new book “Codependent No More.” I’ve gotten good info from each book I’ve read. Hopefully this one does as well. Also, I PR’d a 5k last night and I’m 5 pounds from my weight goal.
Awesome! Keep up the reading and exercising.
Just finished reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. I wish I had read it a month ago. It's me to a T. I've been struggling with being decisive and taking charge, mainly out of fear. Fear of making W upset, fear of divorce, fear of causing tension in the house. The advice here has helped me acknowledge how ridiculous these fears are and this book reinforced much of the advice I've been getting here the past few weeks. Anyone struggling with these same issues, I'd highly recommend reading it.
Just finished reading No More Mr. Nice Guy.
What book is next?
Ready2Change - I'm reading a book called Uncoupling. It walks through the stages of how relationships end. It's based on interviews with a ton of people on how their relationships came to a close. I'll probably finish it today or tomorrow. I'm also still reading Codependent No More. It started off a little stagnant so I pivoted to NMMNG but I'll get back to it in a few days. Most of the books I've been reading came from the recommended books thread and they've been helpful.
Just finished reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. I wish I had read it a month ago.
For it to have had any kind of an impact you would have had to read it probably like two decades ago.
LH19 - Oh for sure. I'm referring to the current confusion/walking on eggshells/afraid of upsetting my W stuff the past few weeks. But you are correct, for that to have impacted my actual relationship, as with most books I've been reading, I'm 15+ years too late.
LH19 - Oh for sure. I'm referring to the current confusion/walking on eggshells/afraid of upsetting my W stuff the past few weeks. But you are correct, for that to have impacted my actual relationship, as with most books I've been reading, I'm 15+ years too late.
Ok so now you know. What changes?
There are a lot of things that change for me. I think the biggest things are:
1. Making sure I maintain a separate identity apart from whoever I'm in a relationship with i.e. Don't lose myself. This includes keeping in contact with friends, having hobbies that I don't stray from and not being afraid to do things for myself once in awhile.
2. Having established boundaries to ensure that I don't allow myself to be treated with disrespect or allow my wants/needs to become ignored. This also includes boundaries with how others treat my partner/kids/me. I've been a conflict avoider in the past and have often failed to call out BS from friends and family toward my wife or kids. I will stick up for what I know is right and not stray from that with all things in life.
3. Understanding that relationships take work and a partners commitment to me should not be taken for granted. Make time for that person, including spending time together, communication and learning through books/IC's/etc how to deal with the different problems that will occur in relationships.
There are many other things I've learned, but if I can focus on these things, I think I'll have a much better chance for success no matter who the lucky lady is.
There are a lot of things that change for me. I think the biggest things are:
1. Making sure I maintain a separate identity apart from whoever I'm in a relationship with i.e. Don't lose myself. This includes keeping in contact with friends, having hobbies that I don't stray from and not being afraid to do things for myself once in awhile.
2. Having established boundaries to ensure that I don't allow myself to be treated with disrespect or allow my wants/needs to become ignored. This also includes boundaries with how others treat my partner/kids/me. I've been a conflict avoider in the past and have often failed to call out BS from friends and family toward my wife or kids. I will stick up for what I know is right and not stray from that with all things in life.
3. Understanding that relationships take work and a partners commitment to me should not be taken for granted. Make time for that person, including spending time together, communication and learning through books/IC's/etc how to deal with the different problems that will occur in relationships.
There are many other things I've learned, but if I can focus on these things, I think I'll have a much better chance for success no matter who the lucky lady is.
Good stuff DW. Keep moving forward.
I haven’t posted in a bit so I figured I’d give a little update.
Things have been going well for me and have been cordial with W. Was a busy weekend with soccer games, D18 homecoming and my bday. Bought a couple of shirts and jeans. Went out for bday drinks Saturday night with some good friends and my sister. Had a lot of fun. W and a couple of her friends stopped by for a drink but left after about 30 minutes. Two of her friends stuck around for about an hour before reluctantly meeting up with W which I thought was funny.
Sunday was my actual bday. I was trying to make bigger plans for the day but D4 had another game right in the middle of the day so I deferred to family time instead. W came home at about 7am and casually complained about a bunch of stuff that I ignored – she supposedly left the bar because she had a panic attack and thinks it was because my sister was there, I don’t give her enough information about what I’m doing, I ignored her at the bar Sat night, Do my friends know we’re getting D, and other random things. I validated a little, but mostly ignored it and got up and walked the dog for about an hour. I sometimes feel guilty for not giving her specific enough answers, but if it doesn’t involve the kids, she can keep guessing.
Went to the D4’s game, then came home and watched a football game and a playoff soccer game with the girls. Had “family movie night” with them after that. So lots of TV, which is pretty rare for me, but was nice just relaxing and stopping myself from doing things like cleaning. We did cake but W was downstairs in bed and declined to participate. Bothered me a little, mainly because it’s confusing for D4, but I’ve been pretty good about having little to no expectations.
This morning however, something she said did bother me and it’s been hard to ignore so far today. She gave me a heads up that really early Thursday morning some friends need her help with something but she’d be home to take D4 to school before I leave for work. She said I’ve been vague about my plans so she’ll be vague as well. I calmly told her that her plans are none of my business and left for work. Then the speculation kicked in. I keep asking myself questions I know I shouldn’t care about (Is she staying out and coming home in the morning or just leaving early Thursday morning? Will she be with OM? If so, why did she say friends instead of friend? Who is busy that early on a Thursday?) I know I’ve got to focus on what I’m doing, and I have been doing well with it, but this one caught me off guard. I’ll keep trying to stop sign it and hopefully that’ll help.
Quick note about our bills, I made a list of bills for her, gave her all applicable info and allowed her to provide any input she had. She was a little upset, slept on it and seemed okay with it the next day. Her only complaint has been that I kicked her out of the MBR so she shouldn’t have to pay fair share of bills (what?). Getting rid of my irrational fear of upsetting her has been great.
This week is busy again with soccer, but for my GAL, I’m still exercising (mainly just treadmill running since W’s bed took over my workout space – a trade I’ll happily agree to), I have a couple more pounds to lose this week to meet my October goal, ran the fastest mile I’ve run since I was probably 15, going to a Halloween party Saturday and have a few holiday related plans for spending time with the kids.
DW17,
Bought a couple of shirts and jeans.
Upgrading the wardrobe, nice.
Went out for bday drinks Saturday night with some good friends and my sister. Had a lot of fun.
Awesome!
W and a couple of her friends stopped by for a drink but left after about 30 minutes.
Seems awkward to stop in briefly on your H's birthday outing. Either come or don't come, but a quick appearance and then leave? Odd. Glad you didn't let it stop you from having a fun night.
Two of her friends stuck around for about an hour before reluctantly meeting up with W which I thought was funny.
You should've practiced your flirting skills on her friends. THAT would've been interesting.
W came home at about 7am and casually complained about a bunch of stuff that I ignored – she supposedly left the bar because she had a panic attack and thinks it was because my sister was there, I don’t give her enough information about what I’m doing, I ignored her at the bar Sat night, Do my friends know we’re getting D, and other random things. I validated a little, but mostly ignored it and got up and walked the dog for about an hour.
Mostly ignoring it and leaving is the right call. It's YOUR birthday, and she's complaining? Don't let it phase you - sounds like you handled it right.
I sometimes feel guilty for not giving her specific enough answers, but if it doesn’t involve the kids, she can keep guessing.
Drop the guilt, Mr Nice Guy. She is cheating on you!
She gave me a heads up that really early Thursday morning some friends need her help with something but she’d be home to take D4 to school before I leave for work.
Her friends need help with something really early on a Thursday morning? Hmmm...skeptical. Sounds like she's playing games with your head.
She said I’ve been vague about my plans so she’ll be vague as well. I calmly told her that her plans are none of my business and left for work.
Great answer! Bonus points if you did it with a coy smile on your face.
Then the speculation kicked in. I keep asking myself questions I know I shouldn’t care about (Is she staying out and coming home in the morning or just leaving early Thursday morning? Will she be with OM? If so, why did she say friends instead of friend? Who is busy that early on a Thursday?)
Perfectly understandable. There's not a single person here who hasn't had those thoughts - do your best to keep them to yourself and making your interactions with her proper, which it sounds like you're doing.
I know I’ve got to focus on what I’m doing, and I have been doing well with it, but this one caught me off guard. I’ll keep trying to stop sign it and hopefully that’ll help.
Wouldn't worry about this too much - sounds like you're doing well. Keep up the way you're interacting with her, and the internal off guard feeling will get better over time.
Her only complaint has been that I kicked her out of the MBR so she shouldn’t have to pay fair share of bills (what?).
LOL! Too bad so sad for her.
Getting rid of my irrational fear of upsetting her has been great.
Great to hear, but be prepared you'll have ups and downs...don't be surprised if some of those fears resurface temporarily.
This week is busy again with soccer, but for my GAL, I’m still exercising (mainly just treadmill running since W’s bed took over my workout space – a trade I’ll happily agree to), I have a couple more pounds to lose this week to meet my October goal, ran the fastest mile I’ve run since I was probably 15, going to a Halloween party Saturday and have a few holiday related plans for spending time with the kids.
Good stuff DW17! Sounds like you're doing relatively well. Keep up the good work.
She said I’ve been vague about my plans so she’ll be vague as well. I calmly told her that her plans are none of my business and left for work.
Great answer! Bonus points if you did it with a coy smile on your face.
Did you get the bonus points? I hope so.
Great answer! Bonus points if you did it with a coy smile on your face.
Did you get the bonus points? I hope so.
Not sure if I got the bonus points, but W has been getting irritated with my "smirks" so it's at least getting noticed.
W has been spinning the past few days. There's a lot going on and a lot of her problems are her own creation. I've learned that she is in control of her own happiness and has to want to help herself, but it's still strange to me. Sitting back and watching the circus without any added stress for myself is nice, but sometimes I wish someone would help her. Some days I feel like I'm watching a person gasping for air while I just sit there. I think part of that is I haven't been validating as much the past week. I'm not even sure why, but part of me just stopped caring as much. I think a bit of anger and resentment on my part may be the culprit. I'll explore those thoughts and feelings more the next few days.
Meanwhile, I found out I got the promotion I've been gunning for. After years of not giving it my best effort, I went all out this time and nailed it. W hated that I wasn't more proactive about it in the past. Being put in a position where I had to look into the mirror and figure myself out has been a game changer for me in pretty much every aspect of my life. It is probably the best thing that could have happened to me, despite the craziness that has come along with it.
Well, I guess it's time to figure out how to start a new thread!