Stuck in limbo III

[Doug54]

Link to last thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2936951&page=1

[Ready2Change]

What did you do on the 5th?

[Doug54]

What did you do on the 5th?

Didn't do $hit, nor did W. Didn't really bother me. W is perpetually off in her own MLC world.

[Doug54]

Try to listen when she comes to you, try to validate, and thank her for her thoughts.

When she spews, walk away and let her know that when she calms, you will once again listen...

I think I'm hardwired to validate at this point rather than return fire. If nothing else, hopefully this will benefit me in my next relationship, and perhaps life in general.

She is still there, and she will say that she is trying, and because that doesn't look like what YOU think it should be, doesn't mean it's not happening....

Remember her truth and your truth ? Same thing....

All of that anger and frustration HAS to come out before anything can be any different for the future...

I don't recall many, if any, recent mentions of "trying" by W. Pretty sure she's convinced she wants out, but present circumstances (financial and the kids) necessitate us staying together in the house for the time being. But yeah, I guess true detachment would be indifference, and the fact that she's venting is something.

The decision that I spoke of, is the one you are dancing around....

The decision to choose you...

And you can say that you already have, although there is still a LOT of you, basing your decisions on what you think that she may or may not do......

And that Doug, is allowing her to define you....

Don't tell me when you do, I will be able to tell by where your thoughts are...

I agree, you do seem prescient enough to know by my posts when I cross the threshold of not allowing W to define me.

So third grade dating game here....

Check yes or no....

Is it too late ?

___yes __X_no ---> I mean I guess it's not too late since no one has moved out or filed yet(?)

Has she moved on ?

_X__yes ___no ---> This answer would seem incongruent with what I marked for #1 above, but this is the vibe I really get. Plus, I really do not know WTF is going on with her phone and the EA...I stopped harping on it and decided to give her space, but she may well be at the point where she wants to feel the butterflies again (credit - LH19).

Is she in control of your thoughts, feelings, and actions ??

___yes _X__no


Does she get to write the ending of YOUR book ?

___yes __X_no

What are you gonna discuss with your IC ???


Because we as humans, really do work toward our goals.....

Talked about the current MR situation, my state of mind, and my goals. Counselor actually said I seem a good bit more detached than when I began therapy a few months ago. Again, this was my first session in 3 weeks due to counselor being on vacation.

Oh, and 5LL ??

Actually got it from the library today before IC and read about 50 pages. My copy that W gifted me many years ago is around somewhere, probably in a box with other books. I liked the part about people's love tanks getting down to Empty and needing to be refilled. I'm not sure where that leaves me, though. So far, I think W's language is words of affirmation. So should I start complimenting her more and pumping her up? That would seem counter to DBing.

[Doug54]

Consider if she still has feelings to vent at you, she hasn't completely moved on from you.

Yeah, I guess that's one way to spin it. As I wrote in my response to Mach1, true detachment would seem to take the form of indifference and not letting someone have any say in your mood or emotional state.

[Ready2Change]

When she spews, walk away and let her know that when she calms, you will once again listen...

I will also add that it depends on what we define as "spews". If it becomes disrespectful, then time to leave. If it is just her venting anger, sometimes it is definitely good to show her you can handle her anger without arguing back.

Gekko was one of the very few "Natural DBer's" Might want to check out his posts:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=40586

I think I'm hardwired to validate at this point rather than return fire. If nothing else, hopefully this will benefit me in my next relationship, and perhaps life in general.

It will absolutely help in all your relationships. Listening and validating someones emotional state is a great skill.

All of that anger and frustration HAS to come out before anything can be any different for the future...

Yes, and this will take time. During this time, you work on you and your issues.

True detachment would be indifference.

Yes.

and the fact that she's venting is something.

Yes. Just don't put to much focus on it. Just note that she is vernting to you is good. How you respond to that is the the important thing. And the most important thing is did/do you intentionally respond the way you want to.

I liked the part about people's love tanks getting down to Empty and needing to be refilled. I'm not sure where that leaves me, though. So far, I think W's language is words of affirmation. So should I start complimenting her more and pumping her up? That would seem counter to DBing.

This is a tricky area. As long as you are not supplicating, you can put out a simple compliment and observe the reaction. "you are such a good mom" or something similar . It has to be natural and sincere. Start slow...treat her like a squirrel. Nothing quick..

[Ready2Change]

Didn't do $hit

Sounds boring.

Do you have plans to do anything exciting the next several evenings? What about Friday night? Saturday and Sunday?


GAL like a madman....LH19 can give you great insight.

[Doug54]

Didn't do $hit

Sounds boring.

Do you have plans to do anything exciting the next several evenings? What about Friday night? Saturday and Sunday?


GAL like a madman....LH19 can give you great insight.

I thought you meant in reference to the anniversary. In general, I definitely get out and do stuff. Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller. Might have to settle for the generic version of whatever he's advocating.

[Ready2Change]

I thought you meant in reference to the anniversary.

Ahhh "Didn't do $hit to acknowledge it to her."

Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller. Might have to settle for the generic version of whatever he's advocating.

LH19 remembers lots of details of each poster and gives more focused advise than I can. I am more focused on the general patterns based on human nature. I am not sure what you mean by high roller....spending $$$?

[LH19]

Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller.

Yep I need more clarification on what you mean before I respond.

[Ginger1]

LH is just going to tell you to hit the gym .

[LH19]

LH is just going to tell you to hit the gym .

Correct the gym/Cross-Fit etc. should be a given to help attract members of the opposite sex.

[Doug54]

Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller.

Yep I need more clarification on what you mean before I respond.

Lol. The "high roller" comment was just a half-arsed attempt at humor...meaning GALing for LH19 would probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle. A lifestyle I couldn't exactly keep up with.

I know GALing doesn't have to be that ostentatious.

Hey LH19, do you happen to have any thoughts on what I wrote to Mach1 regarding the Five Love Languages book and W possibly being in the Words of Affirmation category? Do I even bother with that sort of thing or should I just treat W as a lost cause?

[LH19]

Lol. The "high roller" comment was just a half-arsed attempt at humor...meaning GALing for LH19 would probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle.

I have actually done 2 of the 3.

I know GALing doesn't have to be that ostentatious.

My GAL now mostly consists of sitting on a beach, drinking some brews, listening to music with some awesome people.

Hey LH19, do you happen to have any thoughts on what I wrote to Mach1 regarding the Five Love Languages book and W possibly being in the Words of Affirmation category? Do I even bother with that sort of thing or should I just treat W as a lost cause?

I don't like it because you are kissing the a$$ of a person who is rejecting you and at least having an EA with another man. To me the book is for FUTURE relationships which may or may not include your W. Plus if you are just doing it to get her back she will smell it a mile away.

[Ginger1]

Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller.

Yep I need more clarification on what you mean before I respond.

Lol. The "high roller" comment was just a half-arsed attempt at humor...meaning GALing for LH19 would probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle. A lifestyle I couldn't exactly keep up with.

I know GALing doesn't have to be that ostentatious.

Hey LH19, do you happen to have any thoughts on what I wrote to Mach1 regarding the Five Love Languages book and W possibly being in the Words of Affirmation category? Do I even bother with that sort of thing or should I just treat W as a lost cause?

This is hilarious! The dude basically goes to the gym and drinks at his cottage

[Mach1]

Hey LH19, do you happen to have any thoughts on what I wrote to Mach1 regarding the Five Love Languages book and W possibly being in the Words of Affirmation category? Do I even bother with that sort of thing or should I just treat W as a lost cause?

I'm not LH, but I have been to a strip club or two...NOT on a moped though (does that count as your motorcycle purchase LH? )

The 5LL is one of those misleading things that I ask people to do.

I always recommend reading it twice....

Once shortly after a poster gets here...

And while they are reading it....most will get those little stings up the back of their neck, of the tings that they missed, or what they did wrong in the marriage.

For me, It was kind of like a "How I F'ed this up" manual...

Those 'stings' are the things that you don't like about yourself, and things that you should probably look into changing about yourself...

DISCLAIMER ....

Do NOT read it with the intention of suddenly speaking her love language....this isn't a 'love dare' post...

Read it for YOU...

First step into how you define what Love means to you....



The second time you read it ???

Get through the first time first.....

[SteveLW]

Doug, do you have hobbies? Sports you participate in? Male friends?

If no, no, and no, did you have any of that prior to marriage?

[LH19]

Just the same, I always welcome input from LH19, though he sounds like a high roller.

Yep I need more clarification on what you mean before I respond.

Lol. The "high roller" comment was just a half-arsed attempt at humor...meaning GALing for LH19 would probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle. A lifestyle I couldn't exactly keep up with.

I know GALing doesn't have to be that ostentatious.

Hey LH19, do you happen to have any thoughts on what I wrote to Mach1 regarding the Five Love Languages book and W possibly being in the Words of Affirmation category? Do I even bother with that sort of thing or should I just treat W as a lost cause?

This is hilarious! The dude basically goes to the gym and drinks at his cottage

You are just mad because you never got an invite.

[Doug54]

Doug, do you have hobbies? Sports you participate in? Male friends?

If no, no, and no, did you have any of that prior to marriage?

Yes, although I lost a lot of my identity within the marriage. W complained a lot early on about me going out and doing stuff and leaving her behind with the kids. I assumed this was a casualty of married life, and largely curbed my social / fun stuff. If you recall from my initial post, I gained two young stepkids the day I got married (we all actually lived together for a year before the wedding date). Further to that point, W and I never developed much of a couples' life without kids. There were bits and pieces, but I'm sure that was a circumstance that contributed to being where we are today in the MR.

BL42 fairly said that it was on me for allowing that to happen - the loss of GAL on my behalf. Some things that fell by the wayside were coaching varsity baseball (though I replaced that with coaching my kids' teams), rec softball, ultimate frisbee, going out socially with work friends, and happy hour outings. Looking back, a lot of friend activities were absent for W too, replaced by kiddie responsibilities. That played a huge role in my unofficial diagnosis of MLC for W - the time has arrived for her to do things for *her* and not other people.

So, I am trying to reclaim some of the things I liked. I want to get involved with something charitable and hopefully consistent. I've been reconnecting (present tense) with several friends that sort of fell by the wayside. I get the concept and purpose of GAL and I wouldn't say it's not going well...I do wish I still lived near the beach now that Ginger and LH19 mention it. Grew up about a 40-minute drive away which has morphed into a 4-hour trek from where I now reside.

[BL42]

GALing for LH19 would probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle.

I have actually done 2 of the 3.

My money's on Vegas & motorcycle.

My GAL now mostly consists of sitting on a beach, drinking some brews, listening to music with some awesome people.

There are certainly worse ways to spend your time!

Do NOT read it with the intention of suddenly speaking her love language....this isn't a 'love dare' post..

Doug54 - I read 5LL and Love Dare...neither saved my marriage. They're great resources to consume to improve for the future, regardless of what happens, just know it's no guarantee of your current situation.

[Doug54]

Mach- I will finish the Love Languages book and report back. I'm glad you clarified that I'm not to try to apply anything to my current MR.

In the meantime, do you have any nuggets of wisdom based on my responses below?

Is it too late ?

___yes __X_no ---> I mean I guess it's not too late since no one has moved out or filed yet(?)

Has she moved on ?

_X__yes ___no ---> This answer would seem incongruent with what I marked for #1 above, but this is the vibe I really get. Plus, I really do not know WTF is going on with her phone and the EA...I stopped harping on it and decided to give her space, but she may well be at the point where she wants to feel the butterflies again (credit - LH19).

Is she in control of your thoughts, feelings, and actions ??

___yes _X__no


Does she get to write the ending of YOUR book ?

___yes __X_no

[Ready2Change]

To me the book is for FUTURE relationships which may or may not include your W.

Also, take a look at each of your kids and determine their LLs. Lots of people pass out what they want to receive.


It comes down to interacting with her differently. Not to win her back, but rather to embody the type of man you want to be.

[Ready2Change]

....probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle. A lifestyle I couldn't exactly keep up with....

Sounds like one afternoon for Traveler.....Just throw in a couple ladies for some excitement.

[Traveler]

I mean I guess it's not too late since no one has moved out or filed yet(?)

The WAS moving out or filing often aren't the game-changes LBS initially imagine them to be. For example, my XGF and I reconciled months after she moved out, and my XW reminded me 1-2yrs ago that R was still possible.

_X__yes ___no ---> This answer would seem incongruent with what I marked for #1 above, but this is the vibe I really get. Yeah, I guess that's one way to spin it.

Nobody knows your exact odds, but they're higher when the WAS still has feelings about you and hasn't given up on trying to share them. Listen, validate, and find 180s that align with your own goals. That helps if you don't R, too! Also, remember that feelings are temporary. It's often said here one day they didn't want to marry you and eventually they did.

Doug, you sound a bit defeated about R just now. Have you read May's situation? She felt attacked for standing on the DivorceBusting website of all places, but she could sure articulate why it mattered to her. That steadfastness, and a partner who changed their mind, got her to R. What are you fighting for? Is that dream worthy enough to set a drop-dead date a year (or another timeframe) from joining DB as Steve often suggests--July 15, 2023? I love drop-dead dates because they alleviate your own daily swing of "Do I stand or not?" and there's an end and no indefinite limbo--one way or the other.

[Traveler]

....probably be boating off Martha's Vineyard, jetting to Vegas, and buying a motorcycle. A lifestyle I couldn't exactly keep up with....

Sounds like one afternoon for Traveler.....Just throw in a couple ladies for some excitement.

lol. Nah, too spendy for me! My closest to that this year was kayaking on a choppy ocean near a breaching whale, then dancing by a bonfire with a few ladies, then a moonlight stroll with one where she and I tumbled in the sand under the moonlight. Usually, I prefer to be more physical--climbing mountains like the ones staring at me on my desktop wallpaper.

Ready2Change, you don't write as much about yourself. What's your ideal GAL? Maybe one of our personal GAL ideas will inspire Doug to try something new and exciting!

[Doug54]

Doug, you sound a bit defeated about R just now.

I don't know, I still suffer from an inconsistent dichotomy between my head and my heart. My IC remarked yesterday that I seem to have made progress on detachment since I initially started at the beginning of April (weekly sessions). I wouldn't presume to disagree. But...I'll still have moments. The other day I was doing some weeding outside the house while listening to music. W was off with the two younger kids. Weeding doesn't require any dexterity or much focus, so before I knew it, my mind wandered and I was hit with a gut-punch of nostalgia. It was October 2004, a few months into my relationship with W. Probably at the height of the limerence stage. She knew I was excited about the World Series (Red Sox - Cardinals) and suggested a trip to Best Buy, about an hour away, for a new tv to mark the event. Just everything about that day - the drive and time together, the notion that this woman thought enough of me and my happiness to splurge on a new tv for my viewing pleasure, the autumn time of year, spending the night together. I mean, I don't think my eyes quite got watery over the memory but it definitely grabbed my breath. And now, well, she's just not the same person...and the marriage may be on the outs...but for that minute or so while I relived the remembrance, things were perfect.

What are you fighting for? Is that dream worthy enough to set a drop-dead date a year (or another timeframe) from joining DB as Steve often suggests--July 15, 2023? I love drop-dead dates because they alleviate your own daily swing of "Do I stand or not?" and there's an end and no indefinite limbo--one way or the other.

What would happen on that date if there's still no movement? I hit the bricks myself?

[Doug54]

There's this quote from AnotherStander in Gekko's initial thread that also resonated with me:

Yes it's normal to think you are done, but don't expect it to stay that way. Recovery is like driving over a series of hills, there are peaks and valleys. When you hit a new peak you think you're done and have moved on but guess what, you're not out of the hills yet and there's a valley dead ahead. Be patient, don't act on these feelings (IE, file for S or D yourself) until you stabilize.

[Doug54]

lol. Nah, too spendy for me! My closest to that this year was kayaking on a choppy ocean near a breaching whale, then dancing by a bonfire with a few ladies, then a moonlight stroll with one where she and I tumbled in the sand under the moonlight. Usually, I prefer to be more physical--climbing mountains like the ones staring at me on my desktop wallpaper.

Is that a euphemism?

[Traveler]

where she and I tumbled in the sand under the moonlight

Is that a euphemism?

Ha! No, that night we literally tumbled into the sand and I kept her warm as we sat together, laid down, and listened to the waves. The other sort of tumbling with her was another day. I don't want to glamorize being single. That day the grass was greener. You will not die. Some days it's not! My XW hasn't seen the kids in 11 days and doubtless misses them.

[SteveLW]

Actually, embracing that R is unlikely and getting on board with the inevitable D is one of the great DBing motivators. In my own situation, one of the best things I did was consult with an attorney. I didn't tell her, I didn't broadcast it, I just got a free consultation for myself. It was eye-opening and destroyed all of the pie-in-the-sky quickie divorce stories she was feeding me. When there are minor kids involved there is no such thing as a quickie D in most jurisdictions.

But once you are resigned to the D, GAL, 180s and emotional detachment become easier to work towards and maintain. But as AS said, do not let it cause you to jump the gun.

[Doug54]

Actually, embracing that R is unlikely and getting on board with the inevitable D is one of the great DBing motivators. In my own situation, one of the best things I did was consult with an attorney. I didn't tell her, I didn't broadcast it, I just got a free consultation for myself. It was eye-opening and destroyed all of the pie-in-the-sky quickie divorce stories she was feeding me. When there are minor kids involved there is no such thing as a quickie D in most jurisdictions.

But once you are resigned to the D, GAL, 180s and emotional detachment become easier to work towards and maintain. But as AS said, do not let it cause you to jump the gun.

Steve - it's funny you mention that because both W and I did our own lawyer consultations a couple months ago (separately of course) and even with the info she supposedly gained, W is not grounded in reality at all. One recurring pipe dream that would come up before I got wise and shut down R talks was that I would let her "have" the house for four years until S14 graduates, upon which time it would be sold. Never mind the fact that we still have two younger sons as well (I didn't say logic applied).

[Mach1]

Mach- I will finish the Love Languages book and report back. I'm glad you clarified that I'm not to try to apply anything to my current MR.

In the meantime, do you have any nuggets of wisdom based on my responses below?

Is it too late ?

___yes __X_no ---> I mean I guess it's not too late since no one has moved out or filed yet(?)

Has she moved on ?

_X__yes ___no ---> This answer would seem incongruent with what I marked for #1 above, but this is the vibe I really get. Plus, I really do not know WTF is going on with her phone and the EA...I stopped harping on it and decided to give her space, but she may well be at the point where she wants to feel the butterflies again (credit - LH19).

Is she in control of your thoughts, feelings, and actions ??

___yes _X__no


Does she get to write the ending of YOUR book ?

___yes __X_no

All of that is just the start of who you are becoming, and if you don't think this will and can change you, you are mistaken.

There is a way to do this that you will not become jaded toward your future, whether that is with your current spouse or not.

And it could possibly be, never say never...

Ultimately though, the OLD relationship is dead and gone....

Whatever happens in the future, will have to be a new relationship with newer version of the old person.

You will be changed, and she will be changed, hopefully to the better....


As far as butterflies ?

I don't think so, nor do I buy that theory.

WAS , I would say maybe...

Yet an MLCer is just trying to feel something, anything to help ease whatever emotional pain that they are in.

And much like finding an outfit for their first date when they were a teenager, they have to try everything on to see what fits....

So there becomes this huge pile of stuff laying all over the floor....

Not your mess to clean up, yet so many people get caught up in trying to help clean it...

Then eventually get angry because they can't help...


For you ? For now?

Nothing has to be cleaned, sorted, or moved.....

It doesn't have to be black OR white....there is a lot of gray area in your life....

And maybe not assume what she will or will not do for now.

I know that you think that you know her, and her tendencies, however you really don't.

You have no idea of what she really is capable of, because SHE has no idea of that either....


So just pay attention to her actions rather than her words....

Go about "Doug" business, and let her try on clothes...

You'll know when it's time to shift gears....

[SteveLW]

Actually, embracing that R is unlikely and getting on board with the inevitable D is one of the great DBing motivators. In my own situation, one of the best things I did was consult with an attorney. I didn't tell her, I didn't broadcast it, I just got a free consultation for myself. It was eye-opening and destroyed all of the pie-in-the-sky quickie divorce stories she was feeding me. When there are minor kids involved there is no such thing as a quickie D in most jurisdictions.

But once you are resigned to the D, GAL, 180s and emotional detachment become easier to work towards and maintain. But as AS said, do not let it cause you to jump the gun.

Steve - it's funny you mention that because both W and I did our own lawyer consultations a couple months ago (separately of course) and even with the info she supposedly gained, W is not grounded in reality at all. One recurring pipe dream that would come up before I got wise and shut down R talks was that I would let her "have" the house for four years until S14 graduates, upon which time it would be sold. Never mind the fact that we still have two younger sons as well (I didn't say logic applied).

Yep, the WW fantasy bubble is strong. My W, like yours, wasn't ready to blow up peripheral relationships. Like the one with my mom, and sister, and mutual friends, and church members. In fact, sometimes I wonder if that is the only reason she stayed.

[PeterB]

Yep, the WW fantasy bubble is strong. My W, like yours, wasn't ready to blow up peripheral relationships. Like the one with my mom, and sister, and mutual friends, and church members. In fact, sometimes I wonder if that is the only reason she stayed.

Lol my WW is absolutely livid that my family isn't really talking to her. They are being cordial. She says incredulously, "I got so many gifts for them and they do do this in return?". She ignores that she cheated on me and is asking for divorce. Apparently she is entitled to a familial treatment from my family members even now.

[SteveLW]

Yep, the WW fantasy bubble is strong. My W, like yours, wasn't ready to blow up peripheral relationships. Like the one with my mom, and sister, and mutual friends, and church members. In fact, sometimes I wonder if that is the only reason she stayed.

Lol my WW is absolutely livid that my family isn't really talking to her. They are being cordial. She says incredulously, "I got so many gifts for them and they do do this in return?". She ignores that she cheated on me and is asking for divorce. Apparently she is entitled to a familial treatment from my family members even now.

The WW entitlement is always astounding. There are many that feel they should be able to do whatever they want with no repercussions. My WW was just realistic enough to realize that what she was doing was going to burn bridges. One big wake-up to her was when her best-friend, who is also a church member, was having a conversation with my WW. Just a couple of months into our situation. And this friend was saying how they both were good people because they don't and she listed several things and "cheat on our spouses" was one of them! I know not everyone here believes in God or is religious, but sometimes his providence is astounding.

[Traveler]

Hey Doug! How's your GAL coming along?

[Doug54]

For you ? For now?

Nothing has to be cleaned, sorted, or moved.....

It doesn't have to be black OR white....there is a lot of gray area in your life....

And maybe not assume what she will or will not do for now.

I know that you think that you know her, and her tendencies, however you really don't.

You have no idea of what she really is capable of, because SHE has no idea of that either....


So just pay attention to her actions rather than her words....

Go about "Doug" business, and let her try on clothes...

You'll know when it's time to shift gears....

Thanks, Mach. I've been focusing on me and giving W a wide berth. It's not necessarily a terrible life but for the uncertainty. I'm a decisive person and like to know where things stand. That's, uh, not quite possible these days.

That's funny you used trying on clothes as a metaphor for the MLC because she's bought a sh!tload of new stuff lately. If she clamped down on that sort of thing, who knows, maybe there would be funding for the nesting apartment she claimed to want so badly.

Stepson (18) is about to leave for college and his room and bed will come available. Will be interesting to see if W suggests one of us move in there. I certainly don't plan to give up the MBR, but I'm not really getting indications W will push for it for either of us. Having said that...if she does, that means things are even more on the way down. I guess we'll see!

[Doug54]

Hey Doug! How's your GAL coming along?

Hey Traveler. Things are going ok. I feel like I'm making a lot of progress in dropping the rope. I leave W to her own devices and largely focus on Doug.

No Martha's Vineyard or tumbling on the beach with ladies for my GAL, but I stay busy. Could always add something else, but S8 and S5 need to be kept occupied and off electronics in these waning days of summer.

I'd say I've been staying consistent with 180s and validating when W has aired a grievance, so there's that. I told my IC that I've learned a lot that I can at the very least apply to future relationships if this one doesn't work out.

So...this update's a little on the boring side. Which means, watch my next post detail the sh!t hitting the fan, right?

[PeterB]

Stepson (18) is about to leave for college and his room and bed will come available. Will be interesting to see if W suggests one of us move in there. I certainly don't plan to give up the MBR, but I'm not really getting indications W will push for it for either of us. Having said that...if she does, that means things are even more on the way down. I guess we'll see!

You are a decisive person so I suggest deciding that you will not give up the MBR, instead of planning not to give it up. Giving up the MBR (actually scarificing it so that my son could sleep better) didn't work out well for me. Now I'm stuck outside while in limbo and it sends the wrong signals.

[SteveLW]

Stepson (18) is about to leave for college and his room and bed will come available. Will be interesting to see if W suggests one of us move in there. I certainly don't plan to give up the MBR, but I'm not really getting indications W will push for it for either of us. Having said that...if she does, that means things are even more on the way down. I guess we'll see!

You are a decisive person so I suggest deciding that you will not give up the MBR, instead of planning not to give it up. Giving up the MBR (actually scarificing it so that my son could sleep better) didn't work out well for me. Now I'm stuck outside while in limbo and it sends the wrong signals.

This*infinity

Remember there is no nicing her back. If she says "you should sleep in the empty bedroom" you validate "I understand that feel I should sleep somewhere else". But that night still go get in the MBR bed. If she protests you listen, validate, but do not give in.

If she chooses to sleep in the empty bedroom I wouldn't necessarily take it as an indication either way. Assigning meaning to the actions of a WW is fool's gold. I know you want to know the outcome (you admit that above). In my situation I would have guessed that we would end up D'd right up to the point where it became evident that she decided to stay. When these things turn around you will know, whether she chooses to sleep elsewhere or not in the short term.

[Ready2Change]

Ready2Change, you don't write as much about yourself. What's your ideal GAL? Maybe one of our personal GAL ideas will inspire Doug to try something new and exciting!

I was a little different when I arrived here in the fact that I was GAL already. I had to shift away from some of the solo activities to be more social activities. I am never bored.

Photography is my main hobby that ties into all the others. Can do it almost anytime or anywhere. I can take photos alone and ranging up to fully interacting with and photographing people at a wedding. Taking photos, processing, printing are all enjoyable.

Outdoors-Biking,hunting,fishing,hiking,camping,target shooting, archery. Typically go out for 10 day's on horseback archery hunting at the end of sept. Could easily leave the bow and just focus on the camera work.

While I was going through the divorce process and it was not my parenting time, I would frequently do dinners out alone. Interact with the staff. Movies alone. I would review the entertainment section of the paper and find live music to go check out. I avoided drinking alcohol, but would visit several of the local bars on my motorcycle. Play pool or sit by the fire drinking water.

I typically make it a point to meet new people when I go out.(180 from the old me). Pretty much ask a couple questions and listen for the rest of the night.

I believe we all need a balance between solo and social GAL. Balance between home and away.

If you have recently been leaning left, start leaning a little farther right for a bit. IE if you have been focused on your home life and one woman, get out their and just enjoy interacting with the ladies. Keep your boundaries. Can't beat putting smiles on several ladies throughout the day.

New friends and dinner parties. Theme nights---pasta thowdown...everyone makes their favorite pasta dish.

There are guided bike rides down pikes peak highway...It has been a minute, but I would go down Barr trail. 14 miles.

Scuba-diving anytime I get near the ocean.

Astronomy- never ending things to see in the sky...check out your local club.

Aquariums- Start up a saltwater reef tank...so much to enjoy. Check out the local club as well.

Chess - online or in person.

Start a garden, or some herbs in the window.

Rebuild an engine or transmission or do some body work on a classic car.

A little off the top of my head....

[Doug54]

An update, of sorts...

- I finished The Five Love Languages and gave DR another read. Mach, you were right - there were parts of Love Languages that were a bit painful to read because I could see where I had dropped the ball needlessly in the past.

- Had what I think was our last MC session last week. Each one, I think, got incrementally better than the first one where I more or less unloaded on W for her EA. This time, I reiterated that I wasn't in favor of divorce, W reiterated that she felt like she'd moved on from the MR and had "emotionally detached" and then proceeded to cry while talking about not having felt supported in the past. I validated everything and admitted that I shared in the blame for getting to where we are today. W again mentioned she didn't feel she had any local options for moving out and didn't want to leave the kids. W added that she had a hard time being decisive. The counselor repeated from prior sessions that she didn't blame me for not wanting to leave while reminding W that divorce carries considerable collateral damage and things wouldn't just seamlessly transition. (This isn't verbatim and in order, but in a roundabout memory sequence of events.) At one point near the end, W mentioned that we were still sleeping in the same bed and that that might be the next domino to fall. When we walked out of the building afterwards, W smiled at me and said something joking about the sleep situation and then added "I still feel conflicted sometimes" (about D).

- Stepson has moved out to college and S(14) claimed his room. W could have easily grabbed that room or tried to hint that I move there if she were serious about putting some space between us.

- W seems to be softening. It took a while to recover from the events of that first MC session and its aftermath but she asked me to go out with her yesterday and later initiated "things." Having said that, I still feel like I see similarities with LH19's situation where his EXW hung on for over a year and still bolted.

- On that note, it is very likely we'll be in the house together with the kids until at least next June, based on certain circumstances.

- I continue to GAL and have volunteered with a local hospice organization.

- I continue to drop the rope and leave W to do what she wants. Haven't snooped for anything nor have I felt a desire to in spite of many opportunities. The only nagging thought (at times) is not knowing if she's still dicking around in EA territory on her phone. But through my re-reading of DR I've resolved to just give her the space and let things play out on their own.

- No R talks at all.

- I still feel like the deal with W is MLC, so things could probably turn on a dime. Her disposition towards me is often congruent with how much she has on her plate and stress level...but I suppose that's how it often was in the MR to be quite honest.

[Traveler]

Hi Doug, glad you validated instead of challenged her and had a good day! It's good to be open to either possibility, but there's hope that you'll join this forum's recon success stories.

[LH19]

I finished The Five Love Languages and gave DR another read. Mach, you were right - there were parts of Love Languages that were a bit painful to read because I could see where I had dropped the ball needlessly in the past.

Yep Doug I am sure you dropped the ball mostly because you didn't know what you didn't know. How many LL experts are going to be available and hot to trot for a middle age woman with 5 kids? .0001% maybe?

This time, I reiterated that I wasn't in favor of divorce, W reiterated that she felt like she'd moved on from the MR and had "emotionally detached" and then proceeded to cry while talking about not having felt supported in the past.

Doug you really need to stop reiterated you don't want a divorce. She knows it. For you to change turn this around she needs to wonder where you stand.

I validated everything and admitted that I shared in the blame for getting to where we are today.

That's all you can do is apologize once and own your part.

The counselor repeated from prior sessions that she didn't blame me for not wanting to leave while reminding W that divorce carries considerable collateral damage and things wouldn't just seamlessly transition.

Sounds like you have a good counselor.

At one point near the end, W mentioned that we were still sleeping in the same bed and that that might be the next domino to fall.

Good luck finding a place to sleep honey.

When we walked out of the building afterwards, W smiled at me and said something joking about the sleep situation and then added "I still feel conflicted sometimes" (about D).

Let me give you a little sniff to keep you on the hook Dougie.

- W seems to be softening. It took a while to recover from the events of that first MC session and its aftermath but she asked me to go out with her yesterday and later initiated "things."

If you really wanted to save your marriage you should have said "sorry I have plans" and went out alone with zero explanation.

Having said that, I still feel like I see similarities with LH19's situation where his EXW hung on for over a year and still bolted.

Probably. Guess what? Nothing you can do about it.

On that note, it is very likely we'll be in the house together with the kids until at least next June, based on certain circumstances.

So what is your plan? Fight? Throw in towel?

- I continue to GAL and have volunteered with a local hospice organization.

Great! You doing this for you or show?

I continue to drop the rope and leave W to do what she wants. Haven't snooped for anything nor have I felt a desire to in spite of many opportunities.

Perfect!

The only nagging thought (at times) is not knowing if she's still dicking around in EA territory on her phone.

So what changes if she is and what changes if she isn't?

But through my re-reading of DR I've resolved to just give her the space and let things play out on their own.

Time and space are the only things that fix these things long-term.

no R talks at all.

Great!

I still feel like the deal with W is MLC, so things could probably turn on a dime.

Turn in what way? If it's MLC this will play out for many years. Like 5-7 years minimum.

Her disposition towards me is often congruent with how much she has on her plate and stress level...but I suppose that's how it often was in the MR to be quite honest.

Absolutely. When highly stressed it's Doug's fault. He's not doing this and he's not doing that.

[BL42]

Doug54,

I finished The Five Love Languages and gave DR another read. Mach, you were right - there were parts of Love Languages that were a bit painful to read because I could see where I had dropped the ball needlessly in the past.

That's great you're putting in the work. Keep reading up on the relevant topics. Be honest with yourself on your areas for improvement, and tackle them.

Had what I think was our last MC session last week. Each one, I think, got incrementally better than the first one where I more or less unloaded on W for her EA.

Meaning in the first one you went off on her and since you've gotten better about just listening and validating? If so, good.

This time, I reiterated that I wasn't in favor of divorce, W reiterated that she felt like she'd moved on from the MR and had "emotionally detached" and then proceeded to cry while talking about not having felt supported in the past.

Doug you really need to stop reiterated you don't want a divorce. She knows it. For you to change turn this around she needs to wonder where you stand.

I agree w/LH. She knows where you stand. Stop saying it. If anything better she wonder if you've changed your mind.

I validated everything and admitted that I shared in the blame for getting to where we are today.

That's all you can do is apologize once and own your part.

Again, agree w/LH. It's good to accept the appropriate level of blame...but don't keep going on and on about it. Don't think by any means if you continue to apologize over and over - for either stuff you fairly messed up on but also things that really weren't your fault but you want to accept to make it better - that it'll change her mind. You've apologized...time for your to move on.

W again mentioned she didn't feel she had any local options for moving out and didn't want to leave the kids.

Remember, not your problem. Let her deal with the consequences of her actions.

W mentioned that we were still sleeping in the same bed and that that might be the next domino to fall.

"OK".

Stepson has moved out to college and S(14) claimed his room. W could have easily grabbed that room or tried to hint that I move there if she were serious about putting some space between us.

This sounds like you're trying to read too much into things. Don't spend your time mind reading. I think it's pretty clear she's serious.

she asked me to go out with her yesterday and later initiated "things."

Meaning sex?

I continue to drop the rope and leave W to do what she wants. Haven't snooped for anything nor have I felt a desire to in spite of many opportunities. The only nagging thought (at times) is not knowing if she's still dicking around in EA territory on her phone. But through my re-reading of DR I've resolved to just give her the space and let things play out on their own.

Good. Easier said than done.

No R talks at all.

What about MC? Sounds like you were pressuring on the R there.

I still feel like the deal with W is MLC, so things could probably turn on a dime.

Don't bet on things turning on a dime. Sounds to me like she's serious but nervous about logistics and consequences with the kids on pulling the plug. Keep working on detachment.

Sounds like you're doing well overall. Remember to keep improving yourself...keep reading, working out, becoming more attractive, GAL...etc.

[Mach1]

An update, of sorts...

- I finished The Five Love Languages and gave DR another read. Mach, you were right - there were parts of Love Languages that were a bit painful to read because I could see where I had dropped the ball needlessly in the past.

I'm glad that you did, and there is a reason I asked you to. And it isn't for anything anyone else is saying, just be patient and I will get to that. Just don't donate it to a homeless shelter or anything, tuck it away all nice and safe for now.

What kind of "sting' did you feel ?

In what areas ??

- Had what I think was our last MC session last week. Each one, I think, got incrementally better than the first one where I more or less unloaded on W for her EA. This time, I reiterated that I wasn't in favor of divorce, W reiterated that she felt like she'd moved on from the MR and had "emotionally detached" and then proceeded to cry while talking about not having felt supported in the past. I validated everything and admitted that I shared in the blame for getting to where we are today. W again mentioned she didn't feel she had any local options for moving out and didn't want to leave the kids. W added that she had a hard time being decisive. The counselor repeated from prior sessions that she didn't blame me for not wanting to leave while reminding W that divorce carries considerable collateral damage and things wouldn't just seamlessly transition. (This isn't verbatim and in order, but in a roundabout memory sequence of events.) At one point near the end, W mentioned that we were still sleeping in the same bed and that that might be the next domino to fall. When we walked out of the building afterwards, W smiled at me and said something joking about the sleep situation and then added "I still feel conflicted sometimes" (about D).

MC is always a tough time during this. Most MLCers will avoid it, so kudos to her for at least showing up...

MC is also a "safe" room, where relationship talks happen, things get said, and anger and frustration, years of resentment is supposed to happen.

Yet, also, the Doug that has been the husband for several years isn't the Doug that has shown up at these lately. He looks like him ....just not that same guy...

I'm glad that you stated your position once again in the safe room, it's not "new" information to her, yet I think that maybe your sessions have changed a bit recently, and just listening to her and validating her will allow her to come to you a little more, feel a little safer little by little.

There is a reason that she found an EA, and those typically are a person that the WAS feels safe with and trusts to hear all of the things that she is starting to tell you.

I would temper those talks, and not be available all the time for them. Aloof, yet available...

I'm also glad that your counselor said the things that they said about Divorce.

It's a reality that most aren't aware of in the moment. Everything is so "instant gratification" that the reality of it all often gets overlooked.

It's a truth dart perfectly placed, and you aren't the one who threw it.....

And the guilt over it is a perfect bullseye...thrown by a person who she has chosen to receive advice and guidance from.

- W seems to be softening. It took a while to recover from the events of that first MC session and its aftermath but she asked me to go out with her yesterday and later initiated "things." Having said that, I still feel like I see similarities with LH19's situation where his EXW hung on for over a year and still bolted.

The problem with some of that, is do NOT apply OPS to this....

OPS = Other People's Schidt...

You aren't LH, and your situation isn't his. And his advice will lead you to his result if you allow it.

Your situation will always be 100% yours, UNLESS you work toward a goal that you do not want....

I was always 100% confident that my situation would work out, right up to the minute that I chose for it not to....

Be confident with the goal that you are working toward....

And THAT is the reason I was pushing you to choose what you wanted....

- I still feel like the deal with W is MLC, so things could probably turn on a dime. Her disposition towards me is often congruent with how much she has on her plate and stress level...but I suppose that's how it often was in the MR to be quite honest.

It's called the MLC bounce....

Up one minute, down the next, all over the F'ing place...

Trick is, to stay far enough away to not get hit with any collateral damage...

Her confusion is a good sign, she is convinced that she is moving one way, then not so convinced the next.

Be the consistent with YOUR goals in what you want...

No more words now, it's all about your actions and who you are becoming...

Stay true to you and your goals, and let her fly around all over the place....

No sense in you both doing that.

Keep being confident Doug.....

NOT arrogant Doug....

Confident....

[Vapo]

- W seems to be softening. It took a while to recover from the events of that first MC session and its aftermath but she asked me to go out with her yesterday and later initiated "things." Having said that, I still feel like I see similarities with LH19's situation where his EXW hung on for over a year and still bolted.

Mind reading will only hurt you.

- I still feel like the deal with W is MLC, so things could probably turn on a dime. Her disposition towards me is often congruent with how much she has on her plate and stress level...but I suppose that's how it often was in the MR to be quite honest.

No it fecking won't. In statistical terms the odds that this will turn on a dime in neglible. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

Read and reread Sandi's rules. Reread them often, internalize them, at least 3 times a day.

[Traveler]

If you read the situations that got to R--where the WAS ceased any affairs and got on-board trying to save the marriage--most neither turned on a dime weeks after joining nor took many years. The sweet seems to be 6 months (early) to 2 years (late). I'm impressed you're finding the strength to validate, not cave on moving out of the bedroom/home, and not act cold or mean. It's a marathon, keep at those GAL/180s! If you need to vent, find safe places like here or the gym.

[Ready2Change]

- I finished The Five Love Languages and I could see where I had dropped the ball needlessly in the past.

That is a drop in the bucket of the knowledge you need to acquire. There are other skills that are much more important at the stage of the process you are at.

I reiterated that I wasn't in favor of divorce,

Only say things once. She heard you the first time.

W smiled at me and said something joking about the sleep situation and then added "I still feel conflicted sometimes" (about D).

Validate her emotions or "reverse babble" her "I can see why you would feel conflicted"

W seems to be softening.

She is not. Your behavior needs more changes.

it is very likely we'll be in the house together with the kids until at least next June, based on certain circumstances.

Do not waste your opportunity.

W mentioned that we were still sleeping in the same bed and that that might be the next domino to fall.

Have you made YOUR bedroom more manly?

[Doug54]

Yep Doug I am sure you dropped the ball mostly because you didn't know what you didn't know. How many LL experts are going to be available and hot to trot for a middle age woman with 5 kids? .0001% maybe?

Not bad. I LOL'd.

Doug you really need to stop reiterated you don't want a divorce. She knows it. For you to change turn this around she needs to wonder where you stand.

I agree w/LH. She knows where you stand. Stop saying it. If anything better she wonder if you've changed your mind.

Ok, so we'd gone two weeks in between sessions and the counselor basically started by asking each of us where we stood; if anything had changed. I'd more or less gone into the first session with guns blazing, saying we were both on the same page as wanting D. So the second & third session I responded to the counselor's question by saying I wanted to try to work things through. I didn't intend to paint a picture that I was begging or anything.

So what is your plan? Fight? Throw in towel?

I definitely want to stay together. No bridges have been burned thus far. Many on this board have said a version of "if your spouse is coming around to you, you'll know in no uncertain terms." So, I guess I'll hope that happens while focusing on Doug. If it doesn't happen with W, then it doesn't happen.

Great! You doing this for you or show?

I definitely would not volunteer with a hospice organization for "show." I'm hoping to help and it certainly can't hurt my own perspective of things, and life.

Turn in what way? If it's MLC this will play out for many years. Like 5-7 years minimum.

Don't bet on things turning on a dime. Sounds to me like she's serious but nervous about logistics and consequences with the kids on pulling the plug. Keep working on detachment.

No it fecking won't. In statistical terms the odds that this will turn on a dime in neglible. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

Ok, so everyone lost me here, or more likely it was my fault for poor phrasing. I meant that things have been quite decent between me and W lately, but that it could turn on a dime. In other words, things could go from sunny to dark due to MLC, warwardness, what have you. I'm trying to take her change in demeanor and "softening" with a grain of salt. It is making it a little more difficult to detach, though, as I told my IC. It's like LH said, 100 percent detachment would mean you're a sociopath.

Sounds like you're doing well overall. Remember to keep improving yourself...keep reading, working out, becoming more attractive, GAL...etc.

Thanks, BL. This board has helped a *lot*.

[Doug54]

The only nagging thought (at times) is not knowing if she's still dicking around in EA territory on her phone.

So what changes if she is and what changes if she isn't?

That's a good question. I don't imagine I'll actually find out the answer, but I guess the easy response is that I'd feel more hopeful if it were the latter scenario you mention above.

LH, I believe you said you had an EA yourself and that it was "intoxicating" while going on. That definitely lines up with research about brain scans showing the euphoria of being in love, or as your ex-wife would say, feeling the butterflies.

In theory, definitely something tough for a LBS to compete with.

[Doug54]

If you read the situations that got to R--where the WAS ceased any affairs and got on-board trying to save the marriage--most neither turned on a dime weeks after joining nor took many years. The sweet seems to be 6 months (early) to 2 years (late). I'm impressed you're finding the strength to validate, not cave on moving out of the bedroom/home, and not act cold or mean. It's a marathon, keep at those GAL/180s! If you need to vent, find safe places like here or the gym.

Thanks, Traveler. You definitely seem like a glass-is-half-full kinda guy. I would give my left nut for a crystal ball view of what my life would look like after next summer, but absent that, I can only work on the GAL/180s and living life as best I can.

[Doug54]

I'm glad that you did, and there is a reason I asked you to. And it isn't for anything anyone else is saying, just be patient and I will get to that. Just don't donate it to a homeless shelter or anything, tuck it away all nice and safe for now.

What kind of "sting' did you feel ?

In what areas ??

Mainly just things that would have been so easy to keep going, or pitfalls I could have avoided. I think W is having a MLC and I could easily still be here dealing with waywardness if I'd batted 1.000 as a husband, but that said, I did not. There's a quote I like from a book written by a divorce lawyer, about trying to avoid D. It goes:

How hard is it to be nice to your spouse? To show them some small kindness. [...] You can't tell me that's challenging. Or buying flowers. Or leaving a little Post-it note with some word of affection. There's no risk, either. If it's ignored or not reciprocated, are you really that much poorer for the gesture? You haven't changed some fundamental aspect of yourself. And your conscience is clean for having tried.

I think about that often.

MC is always a tough time during this. Most MLCers will avoid it, so kudos to her for at least showing up...

MC is also a "safe" room, where relationship talks happen, things get said, and anger and frustration, years of resentment is supposed to happen.

Yet, also, the Doug that has been the husband for several years isn't the Doug that has shown up at these lately. He looks like him ....just not that same guy...

I'm glad that you stated your position once again in the safe room, it's not "new" information to her, yet I think that maybe your sessions have changed a bit recently, and just listening to her and validating her will allow her to come to you a little more, feel a little safer little by little.

So, about this MC. My well-meaning IC suggested I try MC with W for "clarity" because I seemed to be struggling a little bit with limbo in the relationship. Needless to say, neither he nor I (at the time) knew anything about DBing. W agreed to go. I tried to set it up with the MC at my IC's practice but she was booked, so W found a MC. However, W clearly wanted to angle the MC sessions towards a transition. You're right though, Mach - it was a "safe space" where several things were discussed, but W did not have intentions of using it to restore the marriage. That said, I don't think it was fruitless.

You aren't LH, and your situation isn't his. And his advice will lead you to his result if you allow it.

Your situation will always be 100% yours, UNLESS you work toward a goal that you do not want....

I was always 100% confident that my situation would work out, right up to the minute that I chose for it not to....

Be confident with the goal that you are working toward....

And THAT is the reason I was pushing you to choose what you wanted....

That's a fair point. I just think without this site and reading about similar situations and making comparisons, I'd probably be tempted to draw conclusions from slight blips on the radar. Like currently, things are going fairly well between W and I. I'd describe it as, she doesn't seem like someone who wants a D, next summer or whenever. But who knows? And to answer your question, yes I hope it works out and we stay together.

It's called the MLC bounce....

Up one minute, down the next, all over the F'ing place...

Trick is, to stay far enough away to not get hit with any collateral damage...

Her confusion is a good sign, she is convinced that she is moving one way, then not so convinced the next.

Be the consistent with YOUR goals in what you want...

No more words now, it's all about your actions and who you are becoming...

Stay true to you and your goals, and let her fly around all over the place....

No sense in you both doing that.

Keep being confident Doug.....

NOT arrogant Doug....

Confident...

I'm trying, dude. As always, I appreciate all the introspective thoughts.

[Traveler]

Traveler. You definitely seem like a glass-is-half-full kinda guy.

In a way, it's easy for me because I got a chance to R with both my XGF and XW. While you can't control the outcome--that involves another human--you definitely see LBS who learn from their mistakes and become a more attractive partner. It can help! Especially if one of the factors causing your spouse to leave was dissatisfaction with the relationship--assuming you weren't doing something that could fall into her "unforgivable zone" like cheating or abuse.

Good job reading Love Languages! Remember Sandi's rules come first. E.g., if Words of Affirmation are her thing, expressing gratitude she cooked a great meatloaf is fine, but beware of laying on excess flattery. Books on other skills (e.g., Listening) are easier to apply at this phase.

[Ready2Change]

Like currently, things are going fairly well between W and I.

I am not sure what your measuring stick is that is telling you that things are going well between the two of you.

I'd describe it as, she doesn't seem like someone who wants a D, next summer or whenever.

I would bet she wants some excitement in her life.

Have you had a chance to read The Art of Seduction? That book completely changed the way I interact with my lady.

[LH19]

Doug if I had one piece of advice for LH19 of 8 years ago it would be I can’t change the past but I can change the future. Who gives one fuch what W is doing this is the person/partner I want to be moving forward.

I think the number one challenge for newbies is to understand they have little to zero control and understanding what we mean when we say it’s a marathon and not a sprint.

[Vapo]

LH, exactly. No silver bullet in sight...

[LH19]

LH, I believe you said you had an EA yourself and that it was "intoxicating" while going on. That definitely lines up with research about brain scans showing the euphoria of being in love, or as your ex-wife would say, feeling the butterflies.

It was intoxicating and I went through serious with drawls when I ended it. Luckily I still had my logic and reason sensors still functioning. Most MLC middle age people do not and see it as the only escape from the horrible lives (eyeroll) they have.

I can tell you Doug in the past month my exw has had three major bouts of things she had to handle alone because she is single and none of them were fun. Is the grass greener? Maybe and maybe not.

[Doug54]

Been a little while since I posted. I was given a few more responsibilities at work (fortunately a commensurate pay bump as well) and have been busy AF. A nice measuring stick for me is that work was fairly chill last spring when my home situation was spiraling, but I could barely get stuff done with the wheels turning in my head. Now, I feel much more attuned to job duties...I guess mainly a passage of time thing with my situation.

So...about that. Things have mostly gone well at home since my last post. I'm almost tempted to repeat my sentiments about W softening except that I'm not a mind-reader, and of course it's a marathon and not a sprint. The whole "us sleeping together in the same bed might be the next domino to fall" thing never materialized. We've definitely talked more around the house and I want to say she's texted more as well.

Only chink in the armor are some thoughts I've had about not knowing what's going on and wondering if trust can be rebuilt. LH, I know you wrote "Who gives a fuch what W is up to - live your best life." Should I not be concerned how much cake-eating might be going on while I've dropped the rope? I don't say that from a place of trying to control W, but to not get taken advantage of. I do feel like if W somehow said she'd secured a place to live and was leaving tomorrow, I'd be ok staying in the house with the kids. I certainly wouldn't have typed that 4 months ago.

To that point, I re-read "Carol's" situation in DR a few times, mainly the part about how Carol thought her husband should be the one trying to win her back, not the other way around. I know in my case, W had at a minimum an EA with (I suspect) someone from her past, and I'm not positive if we're talking past or present (ongoing) tense. So, again...I've had some nagging thoughts about "what am I trying to save here"?

Can anyone relate to this in their own situation?

[BL42]

Doug54,

I was given a few more responsibilities at work (fortunately a commensurate pay bump as well) and have been busy AF.

Congrats on the raise!

A nice measuring stick for me is that work was fairly chill last spring when my home situation was spiraling, but I could barely get stuff done with the wheels turning in my head. Now, I feel much more attuned to job duties...I guess mainly a passage of time thing with my situation.

That does show progress. Plus I think it works both ways and feeds on itself really - the more you settle out of the spiral the better you can perform at work, and the more you're able to focus on work the less you're thinking about your sitch and the better and more confident you feel from the validation of your work performance.

So...about that. Things have mostly gone well at home since my last post. I'm almost tempted to repeat my sentiments about W softening except that I'm not a mind-reader, and of course it's a marathon and not a sprint. The whole "us sleeping together in the same bed might be the next domino to fall" thing never materialized. We've definitely talked more around the house and I want to say she's texted more as well.

Softening and positive communicates are a good thing. Just keep focusing on improving yourself. Sounds like work is going well. How about personal? Are you meeting up with other guys, doing any activities, hitting the gym, upgrading the wardrobe, reading relationship/attraction materials?

Only chink in the armor are some thoughts I've had about not knowing what's going on and wondering if trust can be rebuilt.

Totally understandable. It's hard, but do your best to focus on yourself and not worry about what she's doing - you can cross that bridge if you come to it.

LH, I know you wrote "Who gives a fuch what W is up to - live your best life." Should I not be concerned how much cake-eating might be going on while I've dropped the rope? I don't say that from a place of trying to control W, but to not get taken advantage of.

Are you living your best life? What are you doing to live your best life?

Dropping the rope means knowing you'll be fine and have a great life regardless of what she decides. That you're not trying to control her decisions at all and are totally open to her deciding so she doesn't feel pressured.

I do feel like if W somehow said she'd secured a place to live and was leaving tomorrow, I'd be ok staying in the house with the kids. I certainly wouldn't have typed that 4 months ago.

Don't be surprised if you spin if that happens. It can come in waves / be a rollercoaster and is common for someone to feel they're stronger but then take a dip when something hits them.

[LH19]

Been a little while since I posted. I was given a few more responsibilities at work (fortunately a commensurate pay bump as well) and have been busy AF. A nice measuring stick for me is that work was fairly chill last spring when my home situation was spiraling, but I could barely get stuff done with the wheels turning in my head. Now, I feel much more attuned to job duties...I guess mainly a passage of time thing with my situation.

So...about that. Things have mostly gone well at home since my last post. I'm almost tempted to repeat my sentiments about W softening except that I'm not a mind-reader, and of course it's a marathon and not a sprint. The whole "us sleeping together in the same bed might be the next domino to fall" thing never materialized. We've definitely talked more around the house and I want to say she's texted more as well.

Only chink in the armor are some thoughts I've had about not knowing what's going on and wondering if trust can be rebuilt. LH, I know you wrote "Who gives a fuch what W is up to - live your best life." Should I not be concerned how much cake-eating might be going on while I've dropped the rope? I don't say that from a place of trying to control W, but to not get taken advantage of. I do feel like if W somehow said she'd secured a place to live and was leaving tomorrow, I'd be ok staying in the house with the kids. I certainly wouldn't have typed that 4 months ago.

To that point, I re-read "Carol's" situation in DR a few times, mainly the part about how Carol thought her husband should be the one trying to win her back, not the other way around. I know in my case, W had at a minimum an EA with (I suspect) someone from her past, and I'm not positive if we're talking past or present (ongoing) tense. So, again...I've had some nagging thoughts about "what am I trying to save here"?

Can anyone relate to this in their own situation?

So Doug I have hindsight on my side so it is easy for me to say now. Your W should be the one trying to win you back but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. If you want to save the marriage and you guys live continue to live together than there is likely to be cake eating. I let my exw cake eat when it benefited the kids or I was getting something out of it. By I was resigned to the fact that I was getting divorced and nothing was going to stop it.

[Doug54]

Thanks, BL42. I think my biggest struggle at this point is the pendulum swinging back and forth between "Why do I want to work things out with a cheater?" and "I can forgive and move on and we have a history and children."

I do recall telling my IC that if W snapped out of this MLC bullshyt (and I felt satisfied that there was nothing going on with anyone else), I actually felt it could have been an overall positive thing for the MR evolving.

Hard to say what the future holds, though.

[Doug54]

So Doug I have hindsight on my side so it is easy for me to say now. Your W should be the one trying to win you back but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. If you want to save the marriage and you guys continue to live together than there is likely to be cake eating. I let my exw cake eat when it benefited the kids or I was getting something out of it. By I was resigned to the fact that I was getting divorced and nothing was going to stop it.

LH, I can't help but wonder if the difference in our situations (other than that mine is still evolving and yours played out years ago) is that my W may well not have formally made up her mind to bolt - yet, but may still be EA'ing...whereas your W had her mind made up but wasn't in an affair at that point. With much cake being eaten all around.

[LH19]

LH, I can't help but wonder if the difference in our situations (other than that mine is still evolving and yours played out years ago) is that my W may well not have formally made up her mind to bolt - yet, but may still be EA'ing...

If she is still EAing zero percent chance she recommits to the marriage.

whereas your W had her mind made up but wasn't in an affair at that point.

It is not in my story but I found out a couple years ago she was having an A when she filed.

With much cake being eaten all around.

Not much you can do about not serving cake on a platter when you are trying to reconcile and don't know if she is in an affair.

[BL42]

LH, I can't help but wonder if the difference in our situations (other than that mine is still evolving and yours played out years ago) is that my W may well not have formally made up her mind to bolt - yet, but may still be EA'ing...

If she is still EAing zero percent chance she recommits to the marriage.

I'm no psychologist, but there are a lot of resources online which will address the differences between men and women who are having affairs and potentially breaking up their marriages. One major one seems to be while men worry more about the physical (E.g., "Phew! At least they haven't' slept together yet."), while women are much more concerned about the emotional. Not always obviously, but in the majority of EAs the woman is much likely to be "done" with the relationship/marriage than a man in a PA. Again, I'm not an authority but that's when I've read quite a bit online and anecdotally that seems how it plays out for the most part on this board.

Bottom line...don't take the EA light and think you're in the clear because "at least it might not be a PA".

[PeterB]

Bottom line...don't take the EA light and think you're in the clear because "at least it might not be a PA".

Absolutely. For a woman, EA is the [censored]. PA might happen later but a woman's EA is far more damaging than a man's PA because men come back after PA. Otoh women do not tend to come back to someone they have emotionally disinvested (final act of disinvestment being the EA). Eventually, if a woman's EA is followed by PA then it is like a death knell to the MR as it destroys commitment (to reconciliation) from both sides.

[Doug54]

Have many on these forums ever felt like pulling the plug on their own situation? I dunno, I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those) but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting away the part of my life that misses female companionship. To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together. But we haven't done anything that could be called a date in ages. Not that I'm bringing that subject up. Am I supposed to wait around forever?

She also inhales her phone every night from like 9-11 under the guise of "schoolwork." Yeah there's some computer work in that category that's legitimate, but there's also ample time and opportunity to be texting a dude. I stopped outwardly caring a while back, but again the amount of potential cake-eating without sunlight at the end of the tunnel gives me pause.

It's not that I haven't been trying to keep up with GAL, just sort of questioning how long one trudges on. To be clear, I haven't brought up any relationship discussions or fallen off the train of DB techniques. Things aren't bad in the house aside from being a little "boring" if you don't count the whims of three rambunctious boys. LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

[BL42]

Doug54,

Have many on these forums ever felt like pulling the plug on their own situation?

It seems somewhat common from reading this forum for folks to waiver on that.

I dunno, I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those) but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting away the part of my life that misses female companionship.

It's coming up on a year you discovered the EA? You're likely going to have to steel your resolve and be a lot more patient if you want things to work out in your marriage.

To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together. But we haven't done anything that could be called a date in ages. Not that I'm bringing that subject up.

I can't recall your status. Sounds like limbo? Is she talking about separation / D? Any positive signs?

Am I supposed to wait around forever?

Only you can answer that. If you're resolved to save your marriage you're going to have to be extremely patient.

She also inhales her phone every night from like 9-11 under the guise of "schoolwork." Yeah there's some computer work in that category that's legitimate, but there's also ample time and opportunity to be texting a dude.

Insistent texting and phone hiding is probably the #1 sign of an affair these days. She is almost certainly texting the guy you discovered her EA with...or someone new. I would bet my paycheck on it. My ExW would text non-stop when we were in the same room and she'd tell me it was her girlfriend. She'd text in bed while "putting my son to sleep". She'd text in the bathroom for way longer than you should need the bathroom. She was even texting for his advice while we were both in the bathroom when then-S4 had a medical thing going on...etc, etc. It's way more obvious than thy realize - or they simply don't care - and your gut here is almost certainly correct.

It's not that I haven't been trying to keep up with GAL, just sort of questioning how long one trudges on.

"It's a marathon, not a sprint." LBSs (myself included) grossly underestimate the realistic timeline on these things initially.

To be clear, I haven't brought up any relationship discussions or fallen off the train of DB techniques. Things aren't bad in the house aside from being a little "boring" if you don't count the whims of three rambunctious boys.

Good.

LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

Hopefully you're kidding. That is a terrible idea, and would certainly not help your marriage.

[LH19]

Have many on these forums ever felt like pulling the plug on their own situation?

Yep. My guess is every single person here at one point or another felt like pulling the plug.

I dunno, I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those) but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting away the part of my life that misses female companionship.

Come on bro. I spent 10 months during Covid w/o female companionship and I didn't shrivel up and die.

To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together.

Ok. I did this for a two and a half years and am still alive.

But we haven't done anything that could be called a date in ages. Not that I'm bringing that subject up. Am I supposed to wait around forever?

No. I would start to think about a drop dead date.

She also inhales her phone every night from like 9-11 under the guise of "schoolwork." Yeah there's some computer work in that category that's legitimate, but there's also ample time and opportunity to be texting a dude.

I am sure that is what she is doing. If you want and need proof there are ways to find out.

I stopped outwardly caring a while back, but again the amount of potential cake-eating without sunlight at the end of the tunnel gives me pause.

Pause for what?

It's not that I haven't been trying to keep up with GAL, just sort of questioning how long one trudges on. To be clear, I haven't brought up any relationship discussions or fallen off the train of DB techniques.

Excellent!

Things aren't bad in the house aside from being a little "boring" if you don't count the whims of three rambunctious boys.

You could have it a lot worse. Have you read about Peter B's wife?

LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

Well Doug if you read what I wrote it was one of the biggest mistakes of my life. It's hard to want to hold my ex accountable for her actions when my side of the road isn't clean.

You need to decide if you are in or you are out right now. Do you want to be able to tell your kids one day that you did everything you could to keep your family together?

[Mach1]

Been waiting for this one to pop up....

Have many on these forums ever felt like pulling the plug on their own situation? I dunno, I'm 99 percent sure W is grappling with a MLC (and supposedly you can't rush those) but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting away the part of my life that misses female companionship. To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together. But we haven't done anything that could be called a date in ages. Not that I'm bringing that subject up. Am I supposed to wait around forever?

This isn't tit for tat here..

YOU burn every ounce of fuel that you have inside of you....every day, then you recharge and begin anew tomorrow...

Quitting now allows you to be a victim of her behavior. And that doesn't sound like you....

She carried this marriage on her back for how long ??

And you want to give up after a few months ?

Puss

: )

She also inhales her phone every night from like 9-11 under the guise of "schoolwork." Yeah there's some computer work in that category that's legitimate, but there's also ample time and opportunity to be texting a dude. I stopped outwardly caring a while back, but again the amount of potential cake-eating without sunlight at the end of the tunnel gives me pause.

Who gives a flying fcku what she's doing...

What are YOU doing ??

You make your way through this with your GAL....

You also get through this by spending an enormous amount of time inside of your own head...

You own your crap, you work through the 'sting' moments, you invest in things that complete you.

You don't let her actions define who you want to be....

You act "as if" everything is going to work out the way you hope that it will.

I always knew without a doubt, that my situation would work out the way that I wanted it to. Right up until I decided later that it wouldn't. And THAT was still my decision....

What goals do you have for you. Not the marriage......YOU ???

What are you doing differently than you have in the past ??

Because 'standing' doesn't mean standing still, and with that mindset, you are simply 'waiting'...

It's not that I haven't been trying to keep up with GAL, just sort of questioning how long one trudges on. To be clear, I haven't brought up any relationship discussions or fallen off the train of DB techniques. Things aren't bad in the house aside from being a little "boring" if you don't count the whims of three rambunctious boys. LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

DO NOT let her off the hook for this...



Same thing we discussed a while back....

You are either in, or you are out.

You said then, that you were in, so I am going to treat you like you are in...

What does it mean to you to be above reproach ???




I would hate for you to be sitting on your porch down the road, wondering "if only".....

[Doug54]

It seems somewhat common from reading this forum for folks to waiver on that.

I'll give you credit - you've said this before and I'm probably guilty of it myself (to waver on being resolutely out on the MR).

I can't recall your status. Sounds like limbo? Is she talking about separation / D? Any positive signs?

No talk of separation or D lately at all. For the record, my W is finishing up her degree in a different field and is set to make a good bit more money once that happens, potentially being able to afford a new place for herself. That may not happen until next summer, and likely not a full-blown house at that.

Only you can answer that. If you're resolved to save your marriage you're going to have to be extremely patient.

Yes, that seems to be the conventional wisdom. So if she doesn't make her own move at some point, I'll have to decide how long I want to let her eat cake while not having enough of a "relationship" for my satisfaction. Also, do I want to break up the kids' family dynamic myself?

LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

Hopefully you're kidding. That is a terrible idea, and would certainly not help your marriage.

Yeah, that was a joke...borne out of slight frustration.

[Doug54]

To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together.

Ok. I did this for a two and a half years and am still alive.

I still don't know how you did that when your wife was completely out and you knew it.

No. I would start to think about a drop dead date.

Probably next summer. A long way off to be sure, but we'll see if she's inclined to make her own move then with the pay bump from a new career.

She also inhales her phone every night from like 9-11 under the guise of "schoolwork." Yeah there's some computer work in that category that's legitimate, but there's also ample time and opportunity to be texting a dude.

I am sure that is what she is doing. If you want and need proof there are ways to find out.

I would be delighted to hear your suggestions. It is not straight-up texting, but clearly some app like Snapchat or What'sApp. Short of grabbing her phone out of her hands when it's unlocked and in use, I am not sure how I would get access to this. I haven't snooped around since late July and it definitely feels less stressful not to be doing that and wondering what I might find, but I'd also say I'm ready to move on if she's neck deep in something else. The only thing I'd add is that when I did snoop around her computer, I saw texts and Facebook messages to friends about things that never came to pass, like separating. "Believe none of what they say" and all that...

I stopped outwardly caring a while back, but again the amount of potential cake-eating without sunlight at the end of the tunnel gives me pause.

Pause for what?

Gives me pause...makes me wonder if I'm getting too taken advantage of.

You could have it a lot worse. Have you read about Peter B's wife?

That's a fair point.

You need to decide if you are in or you are out right now. Do you want to be able to tell your kids one day that you did everything you could to keep your family together?

I know, dude, but what does that mean if I'm "in"? How do I cut off the cake-eating, now or when the time comes? Do I want to tell the kids mom and dad hit Splitsville because daddy suspected mommy was texting too much and acted on that? Remember how you said your wife's first EA was just with some lonely schlub down the street who was getting divorced? I suppose I should calmly tread water for a while longer while giving space.

[Doug54]

Been waiting for this one to pop up....


This isn't tit for tat here..

YOU burn every ounce of fuel that you have inside of you....every day, then you recharge and begin anew tomorrow...

Quitting now allows you to be a victim of her behavior. And that doesn't sound like you....

She carried this marriage on her back for how long ??

And you want to give up after a few months ?

Puss

: )

I get what you're saying but I'm supposed to green-light EAs and W being emotionally distant because those interactions are being directed toward some other douche?

Who gives a flying fcku what she's doing...

What are YOU doing ??

You make your way through this with your GAL....

You also get through this by spending an enormous amount of time inside of your own head...

You own your crap, you work through the 'sting' moments, you invest in things that complete you.

You don't let her actions define who you want to be....

You act "as if" everything is going to work out the way you hope that it will.

I always knew without a doubt, that my situation would work out the way that I wanted it to. Right up until I decided later that it wouldn't. And THAT was still my decision....

What goals do you have for you. Not the marriage......YOU ???

What are you doing differently than you have in the past ??

Because 'standing' doesn't mean standing still, and with that mindset, you are simply 'waiting'...

I'm being who I want to be...but that guy might want to be with someone else if all I'm going to get is crumbs. I'm doing tons differently. I'm living my best life and starting to embrace it even more with each passing day. At 43 I've set a slew of personal bests in the gym. I would like it to work out with W, but I'm not a martyr.

DO NOT let her off the hook for this...

Ok, this one threw me a little....don't let her off the hook for her EA and texting or whatever she has going on?

Same thing we discussed a while back....

You are either in, or you are out.


I would hate for you to be sitting on your porch down the road, wondering "if only".....

What do you recommend? If I stay in, what does that entail?

[LH19]

To be sure, W and I still live together, still talk every day (though not what I would necessarily call substantially), still sleep together.

Ok. I did this for a two and a half years and am still alive.

I still don't know how you did that when your wife was completely out and you knew it.

Ok here is a brief version of my story one more time. I pick up EXWs phone to check weather and it has a passcode. Confronted her and could tell she was lying. Eventually admitted to texting neighbor. Separated for 3 months with me living with friend. Find DB site. OM1 wants nothing to do with her after it's exposed. She agrees to try again. For a year and a half she half heartedly tries but when we would have a relationship talk she says can't get feelings back. Had a great business trip with her and things start feeling like they could turn with a really good anniversary. My daughter gets a new friend with single dad (OM2) and two months later bomb drops. At that point I throw in towel and we are stuck living together for over a year while waiting for D to be final and her to find a house.

Probably next summer. A long way off to be sure, but we'll see if she's inclined to make her own move then with the pay bump from a new career.

See another reason to stick it out. She gets a bump and you are on the hook for less child support.

I would be delighted to hear your suggestions. It is not straight-up texting, but clearly some app like Snapchat or What'sApp. Short of grabbing her phone out of her hands when it's unlocked and in use, I am not sure how I would get access to this. I haven't snooped around since late July and it definitely feels less stressful not to be doing that and wondering what I might find, but I'd also say I'm ready to move on if she's neck deep in something else. The only thing I'd add is that when I did snoop around her computer, I saw texts and Facebook messages to friends about things that never came to pass, like separating. "Believe none of what they say" and all that...

Again if you really want to know ask her to let you see her phone.

Gives me pause...makes me wonder if I'm getting too taken advantage of.

Of course you are being taken advantage of you are the LBS. In a relationship the one who cares the least is the one in control.

I know, dude, but what does that mean if I'm "in"? How do I cut off the cake-eating, now or when the time comes? Do I want to tell the kids mom and dad hit Splitsville because daddy suspected mommy was texting too much and acted on that? Remember how you said your wife's first EA was just with some lonely schlub down the street who was getting divorced? I suppose I should calmly tread water for a while longer while giving space.

You don't have to tread water. You go completely in the opposite direction. Everything is about Doug and the kids. EVERYTHING. Start a new hobby. I trained for a marathon and joined cross-fit. Read books on attraction. Sounds like you are already crushing it in the gym. I restarted when I was 50. you have 7 years on me. You can sacrifice a year and dedicate it to self improvement. Here is the truth of the matter. She is going to recommit to the marriage or she isn't. This is going to play itself out one way or another. I think keeping your family together is worth a year don't you?

Like Mach said you don't want to be sitting on that front porch rocking chair when you are 80 wondering what if you would have gave her more time to figure her $hit out.

I at times wasn't a very good husband and made my share of mistakes. I can honestly look my children in the eyes and say "I made mistakes for sure but I did everything in my power to make up for them and keep this family together". That I feel really good about at the end of the day.

[Mach1]

Been waiting for this one to pop up....


This isn't tit for tat here..

YOU burn every ounce of fuel that you have inside of you....every day, then you recharge and begin anew tomorrow...

Quitting now allows you to be a victim of her behavior. And that doesn't sound like you....

She carried this marriage on her back for how long ??

And you want to give up after a few months ?

Puss

: )

I get what you're saying but I'm supposed to green-light EAs and W being emotionally distant because those interactions are being directed toward some other douche?

What if that is really what is happening ??

What then ?

Is that your dealbreaker ??

Can you walk away with zero regrets ??

Who gives a flying fcku what she's doing...

What are YOU doing ??

You make your way through this with your GAL....

You also get through this by spending an enormous amount of time inside of your own head...

You own your crap, you work through the 'sting' moments, you invest in things that complete you.

You don't let her actions define who you want to be....

You act "as if" everything is going to work out the way you hope that it will.

I always knew without a doubt, that my situation would work out the way that I wanted it to. Right up until I decided later that it wouldn't. And THAT was still my decision....

What goals do you have for you. Not the marriage......YOU ???

What are you doing differently than you have in the past ??

Because 'standing' doesn't mean standing still, and with that mindset, you are simply 'waiting'...

I'm being who I want to be...but that guy might want to be with someone else if all I'm going to get is crumbs. I'm doing tons differently. I'm living my best life and starting to embrace it even more with each passing day. At 43 I've set a slew of personal bests in the gym. I would like it to work out with W, but I'm not a martyr.

What does working it out mean to you ??

Not a glossed over version either...

What does that look like ??

Kudos on the personal best at the gym....

DBing, is striving for a personal best at life...

THAT is what I'm looking forward to issuing Kudos on....

DO NOT let her off the hook for this...

Ok, this one threw me a little....don't let her off the hook for her EA and texting or whatever she has going on?

This response intentionally left blank....for now...

Same thing we discussed a while back....

You are either in, or you are out.


I would hate for you to be sitting on your porch down the road, wondering "if only".....

What do you recommend? If I stay in, what does that entail?

I'm gonna start off by asking you this....

What does fully embracing DB mean to you ??

What does that look like ???

Sigh....

Look, I'm not gonna get all preachy with you here..

You appear to be around the 5-6 month mark. I haven't posted to anyone yet, that around that time mark, hasn't become frustrated and wanted to quit because the reality of their situation is starting to sink in.

There is an anger that they can't control their spouse...

There is a fear that divorce will become their new future label...

There is a fear of judgement from friends and family because of a divorce...

There is a frustration that essentially, we can't have "our way", and things just won't go back to normal.

We envision our spouse coming home one day, and having make up sex and everything goes back to what it once was.

We can slip back into being an asshat, and all patterns return to normal, and we never have to look into that mirror, and realize the issues that have plagued us for years....

We can go back to being angry, frustrated, and controlling. Letting passive aggressive behaviors control the free will of another human being...

Because doing anything different scares the bejeesus out of us....


Around that timeframe is when you define your stand, and what that stand means to you....

You define who you will become on the other side of this...and define who you are through this.

Truthfully ? Most 'guys' can't get past their own machoism and the perception that they need to get laid, and give up...

Looking in the mirror is too hard, and requires total honesty within themselves, something that has often been missing throughout their lives....

We define our vows, and what they mean to us, and who we want to be through them....

Better or worse...right ?

Fcuk man......anyone can do the 'better'....

It's the 'worse' that defines who we are...

Richer or poorer ?

Anyone can do the 'richer'

Who are you when you don't have two nickels to rub together ?

Sickness and health ??

Anyone can do 'health'

It's who you are when sickness invades you...

You DB because you choose to DB, and nobody else can define that for you...

What do your vows mean to you ??

F her man.....

YOU ??

Although you said them to her, they are for you, what you vowed to do regardless if she is sitting on your lap giving you a happy ending, or she is texting ILY to the f-ing garbage man...

It's your commitment TO her....no matter what....


So your choice....in or out..

You said you wanted in, yet I didn't believe your answer then, because you didn't believe it either...

Standing is YOUR choice....

Limbo is YOUR choice...

Loving her is YOUR choice...



So to answer the above....

Standard issue WAS playbook, chapter 3, paragraph 14...

"I wish you would just go find someone to make you happy "


When that happens, depending on your answer to the above, YOU essentially, let her off the hook...

You relieve every ounce of her remorse, guilt, and you justify her excuse for wanting out.....


You ready to do that ?

I don't think that you are....

[BL42]

Doug54,

I can't recall your status. Sounds like limbo? Is she talking about separation / D? Any positive signs?

No talk of separation or D lately at all.

Well the no talk of separation or D lately is good. The EA is bad obviously. But sounds like you have a livable status quo at the moment - certainly not ideal, but tenable.

For the record, my W is finishing up her degree in a different field and is set to make a good bit more money once that happens, potentially being able to afford a new place for herself. That may not happen until next summer, and likely not a full-blown house at that.

See another reason to stick it out. She gets a bump and you are on the hook for less child support.

Your W may be waiting until she upgrades her income and then move out...or not. That's mind reading and try to predict the future. As LH says, you want her to make more so that's a good thing. If you stay together, great your combined incomes are higher. If it comes to D it'll help your position when it comes to child and spousal support. Who's paying for the degree? That could be a financial factor in the D. I'd learn about the law there if I were you.

Also, do I want to break up the kids' family dynamic myself?

I'd think long and hard about this one. You have 3 kids together and your youngest is just 5 years old. The two of you will need to interact and coordinate quite a bit over the next 15 years, and will be linked for the rest of your lives - weddings, grandkids...etc. Ultimately it may not be up to you if W decides on her own, but do you want to be the one who gave up?

LH, maybe I should get myself into an intoxicating EA like you had to maybe match whatever W had or has going on.

Hopefully you're kidding. That is a terrible idea, and would certainly not help your marriage.

Yeah, that was a joke...borne out of slight frustration.

Fair enough. Being here in this sitch you're certainly allowed a joke out of frustration once in awhile!

You don't have to tread water. You go completely in the opposite direction. Everything is about Doug and the kids. EVERYTHING. Start a new hobby. I trained for a marathon and joined cross-fit. Read books on attraction. Sounds like you are already crushing it in the gym. I restarted when I was 50. you have 7 years on me. You can sacrifice a year and dedicate it to self improvement. Here is the truth of the matter. She is going to recommit to the marriage or she isn't. This is going to play itself out one way or another. I think keeping your family together is worth a year don't you?

Like Mach said you don't want to be sitting on that front porch rocking chair when you are 80 wondering what if you would have gave her more time to figure her $hit out.

I at times wasn't a very good husband and made my share of mistakes. I can honestly look my children in the eyes and say "I made mistakes for sure but I did everything in my power to make up for them and keep this family together". That I feel really good about at the end of the day.

Exactly what LH said. Don't worry about her at all - she's going to do what she's going to do - completely shift your focus to you and the kids. Get out there and get at it! Use the limbo time to make yourself and your life awesome. You'll have a better relationship for it if she recommits and if not you'll have a huge head start for your post-D life.

We define our vows, and what they mean to us, and who we want to be through them....

Better or worse...right ? Fcuk man......anyone can do the 'better'.... It's the 'worse' that defines who we are...

Richer or poorer ? Anyone can do the 'richer'. Who are you when you don't have two nickels to rub together ?

Sickness and health ?? Anyone can do 'health'. It's who you are when sickness invades you...

You DB because you choose to DB, and nobody else can define that for you...

What do your vows mean to you ?? F her man.....YOU ??

Although you said them to her, they are for you, what you vowed to do regardless if she is sitting on your lap giving you a happy ending, or she is texting ILY to the f-ing garbage man...

It's your commitment TO her....no matter what....

Also exactly what Mach said in terms of vows. As you're at a tough point here dig down deep and decide what your values and morals are. "For better or worse". "For better" is the easy part, this is the "worse". Sounds like she's breaking her vows right now, and may ultimately decide to break up the marriage (TBD), but YOU don't have to. You can do what's right for you and your children, and even if the marriage doesn't work out know you did everything you could and honestly tell your kids you took the high road and did the right thing. Certainly you can take a year to work on yourself and be present with your kids while in limbo to say that. Is it fair? No. Are you getting taken advantage of? Yes. But..."To thine own self be true".

[Ready2Change]

Things aren't bad in the house aside from being a little "boring"

Make your house more exciting. Got any crazy guy friends? Maybe get them over to watch the game and drink some beer? Escalate from there.

[Doug54]

For a year and a half she half heartedly tries but when we would have a relationship talk she says can't get feelings back.

What were you doing having relationship talks? That's a no-no. Out of curiosity, do you recall if you or your ex would bring those up?

At that point I throw in towel and we are stuck living together for over a year while waiting for D to be final and her to find a house.

What did that entail? If I recall, you kept sleeping in the same bed and having relations until the week she moved out.

Here is the truth of the matter. She is going to recommit to the marriage or she isn't. This is going to play itself out one way or another. I think keeping your family together is worth a year don't you?

Yes. Gonna have to dig deep. Appreciate the words of wisdom!

[Doug54]

Mach, you said something a while back comparing a person going through a MLC to trying on a bunch of different outfits and leaving discarded clothes lying around the floor of a room. That analogy describes my W almost to a T - so many ideas of things she's going to do or try that never come to pass, or things she gets into and loses interest in.

What if that is really what is happening ??

What then ?

Is that your dealbreaker ??

Can you walk away with zero regrets ??

I'm personally going to give it until next June/July-ish before I walk. If you remember, my situation has been marked by neither W nor I preferring to leave the residence. But year, I'll have to be out next summer if there's no traction.

What does working it out mean to you ??

This one's not too tough for me - we do things as a couple again; W stops camping out on her phone half the night & wears her wedding ring again...it feels like an emotional connection exists again. I am doing / plan to do my part in the restoration of the relationship.

There is a frustration that essentially, we can't have "our way", and things just won't go back to normal

I would say this is true..."where is my reward for my efforts?"

It's who you are when sickness invades you...

I feel like if I frame this as how I react to the MLC and my W as a sometimes alien being, it makes it easier to convince myself I have a job to do and a role to play. Keeping that at the forefront of my mind is another thing.

"I wish you would just go find someone to make you happy "


When that happens, depending on your answer to the above, YOU essentially, let her off the hook...

You relieve every ounce of her remorse, guilt, and you justify her excuse for wanting out.....


You ready to do that ?

I don't think that you are....

It's been tempting here and there to use a line like that. I see how it would be detrimental when you put it that way. My inclination would be to use the line as "I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me." I've seen versions of that "script" here on the DB forums.

I appreciate your thoughts and will try (for my own sake) to forge ahead one day at a time.

[LH19]

What were you doing having relationship talks? That's a no-no. Out of curiosity, do you recall if you or your ex would bring those up?

Nah she would. I think in a away to let me know even though she said she was trying she had one foot out the door.

At that point I throw in towel and we are stuck living together for over a year while waiting for D to be final and her to find a house.

What did that entail? If I recall, you kept sleeping in the same bed and having relations until the week she moved out.

Yeah I never left the bed nor did she. Yeah we had relations from time to time. If I was in the mood I would give it a shot. Most times it worked but not always lol. We always did dinner as a family but that was it for the final 16 months. Never nothing together. Tried to keep it as normal for kids as possible to the end. By this time I knew NOTHING would change her mind other than being single and seeing for herself what that looked like.

[LH19]

What's the latest Douggie Fresh?

[Doug54]

What's the latest Douggie Fresh?

Hey LH. Sorry for not responding to your bat signal right away...but thanks for checking in!

Things are going pretty well. I am generally happy with life and finally starting to get out of my own head, for the most part. IC, this forum, and the passage of time have been beneficial.

A few weeks ago I spearheaded a birthday party for S9. I ordered the invitations (he wasn't enamored with what local stores had on hand), filled them out, ordered the cake, bought and filled party favor bags, loaded up a pinata, and planned and ran kiddie games in the backyard. BL42 would have been proud. W had a good time as she's friends with some of the mothers who brought their kids, but I basically ran the whole show. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back but I'm increasingly confident I could thrive in the single dad role if and when the time comes.

I continue the trend from this summer of doing more with the kids than W. I think she feels a little guilty about it, but she appears to be neck deep in MLC mode, giving lots of attention to her appearance and running events. That said, we still live a largely normal domestic existence.

The other week, a twinge of annoyance got the best of me when W was bashing my parents (one of her favorite pastimes), and I blurted out, "So, are you getting an apartment, or what?" If you recall, back early in the summer W became enamored with the nesting idea after two of her old friends planned to try it. This was the first utterance of anything relationship-related from either of us since late July or early August with the MC. She seemed a bit taken aback and said, "No, I don't have any plans" and then followed me back to the bedroom and said, "We have a family." I tried to put the pin back in that grenade and moved on.

As Mach1 tends to say, MLCers are all over the place - up one minute and down the next. In my particular case, W has always been indecisive and sometimes paralyzed by big decisions. I really don't get a vibe that she's inclined to do anything. Which means I may have to lean into a big decision myself next summer if the status quo remains - how much of a diabetic coma from so much cake-eating am I willing to endure? LH, I can't help but again think about your wife coasting for a year before meeting OM2 through your daughter's friend. (How did you not beat that guy's @ss, by the way? You seem pretty alpha.)

Also, W still apparently plans to follow through with the breast augmentation this winter, so I may have to make a decision with the joint checking account and my direct deposit.

The younger two boys we have both generally continue to gravitate towards W as a sort of Parent A, so that also weighs on my mind as being the one to pull the trigger on a separation. Again, that's not on the front burner in any way other than me thinking about a drop-dead date.

Here are a few lines I try to keep in my head, that have helped:

"You can't give too much space in these situations" - LH19

"Who gives AF what W is up to - what have you been doing for yourself?" - LH and Mach

"If you're trying to save your marriage, there's likely going to be some cake-eating" - LH

All in all, it could definitely be worse.

[LH19]

Lol yeah fun bags is MLC 101 my ex got them 2 years before BD. Since it was half my money I asked for one in the divorce lol.

So om2 I suspected (she’s so obvious) but didn’t confirm until like 2 years ago. By the time I suspected om2 I was exhausted and wasn’t going through the ringer again.

I honestly think single parenting is easier. Your house your rules and you don’t have anyone over your shoulder micromanaging.

I can’t stress enough that you will be fine either way. One thing I would suggest is that you don’t let her just slide back into the marriage if it comes to it. She’s either all in or all out.

[BL42]

Doug54,

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back but I'm increasingly confident I could thrive in the single dad role if and when the time comes.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back. It's not easy at times but you can absolutely crush it as a single dad if needed.

I continue the trend from this summer of doing more with the kids than W.

Keep being the best dad you can be and you're kids will remember and appreciate it.

I blurted out, "So, are you getting an apartment, or what?"

Probably not the best DB'ing, but certainly understand the frustration - who knows, maybe it'll get W wondering.

She seemed a bit taken aback and said, "No, I don't have any plans" and then followed me back to the bedroom and said, "We have a family."

Interesting. But remember, believe her actions not her words.

LH, I can't help but again think about your wife coasting for a year before meeting OM2 through your daughter's friend. (How did you not beat that guy's @ss, by the way? You seem pretty alpha.)

Yeah...had to be tempting. If the laws weren't so "civilized" these days wonder if less BS would happen.

Also, W still apparently plans to follow through with the breast augmentation this winter, so I may have to make a decision with the joint checking account and my direct deposit.

Lol yeah fun bags is MLC 101 my ex got them 2 years before BD. Since it was half my money I asked for one in the divorce lol.

LH - Did you get compensated for them in the divorce?!? Seems like a no brainer if it happens not long before filing, but if the timeline is longer not sure how the law handles that.

I honestly think single parenting is easier. Your house your rules and you don’t have anyone over your shoulder micromanaging.

Not sure if I'd call it easier, but there are certainly pros.

I can’t stress enough that you will be fine either way. One thing I would suggest is that you don’t let her just slide back into the marriage if it comes to it. She’s either all in or all out.

^Yep

[LH19]

Hey Doug,

How was Halloween?

[Doug54]

Hey Doug,

How was Halloween?

Hey LH. Halloween was pretty good. Took the younger kids trick or treating with W. The weekend immediately prior to Halloween night, I traveled a few states away with my brothers and two of my sons to a bucket list haunted attraction. The fright factor turned out to be a little disappointing, but it was a fun trip nonetheless. How was Halloween for you? Did you get plastered?

Things at home feel decent. W and I interact and talk more. I really don't get a vibe that she's playing 4-dimensional chess and is suddenly going to change her demeanor and push for divorce. What to chalk that up to? Perhaps passage of time and the 180s I've been consistent with, primarily giving her space. I suppose it's a victory in that almost everyone who winds up at this site hopes to save their marriage. Of course, a.) I can't predict the future and b.) I wouldn't say the marriage is where I want it to be.

I've toyed around with the thought of a drop-dead date next summer. It would be a big decision and I don't know (as of now) if I'd have the wherewithal to napalm the family. Yet, I can't go on forever not really doing much with my spouse. Like, what's the point? Yeah, we're still active in the bedroom, but I mean things like trips or "dates." And of course, the phone passcode and night time "homework" for a couple hours remains. It's a tough one because I've certainly read many of the situations on this board and can't really label my own as a particularly bad one.

Any thoughts on how I should initiate movement if and when the time comes?

[LH19]

My kids have outgrown Halloween so I just handed out candy.

Bro you are living my old life and I do not envy you. So if I am reading you correctly you do not have the passcode for her phone? Have you asked for it?

My exw was slow and methodical in her exit strategy. First was the tatas than the spider veins removal. She sold me how it would make her feel better about herself.

Early on on NYEs at midnight she went into the bathroom after ball drop with her phone for like 15 minutes. Obviously texting someone HNY. I pressed her for her phone and she wouldn’t give it to me. I left and went to my friends. She called and I didn’t answer. She kept calling and I finally answered and I just said “you better fuching call a lawyer” and hung up. The next day she wanted to meet to talk and she offered up her phone and to give me password. My regret now was not to say right then “you are either in or out”. I spent the next 3 years cohabiting with a very unhappy woman which is fun stuff lol. However, on the plus side I got to spend 3 more years with my kids full time. That part of my life is basically a blurr now.

I was like you I don’t think I could have blown out my family. There is no shame in staying for the kids. There is no shame if you get to a point where you had enough. I’m sorry to say though make no mistake about it your w is planning her exit strategy. She’s not getting boobs and exercising for you. They are slow and methodical creatures. The other day I had to pull my old property taxes to see how much they went up and on the 2015 one she had had calculated how much hers would be per month in her mortgage.

If you’re still having sex she is most likely having an EA. Most women won’t cheat on their APs if it is a real affair.

I stay on this board to pay it forward and let people know that their life isn’t over and that the journey is a wild ride and to try to take it all in knowing there are valuable lessons to be learned along the way.

Keep us posted. The holidays can be difficult.

[Doug54]

Appreciate the straight talk, LH. I must say, there have been times when I extrapolated your situation onto my own in totality, which didn't necessarily help my state of mind in getting from one day to the next, but I do appreciate your paying it forward, as you say.

My kids have outgrown Halloween so I just handed out candy.
Bro you are living my old life and I do not envy you. So if I am reading you correctly you do not have the passcode for her phone? Have you asked for it?

No, I don't have it and haven't asked for it. There's no point. She wouldn't give it to me. I think I wrote in one of my first posts that I would have to grab her phone out of her hands while it's open if I wanted to see anything. I don't plan to do that and no one suggested I do so. As far as the phone, you and Mach1 both wrote at one point something along the lines of "Who cares what TF your wife is up to? What are you doing to improve yourself?" and also "Do you want to be sitting on the porch at 80 wondering what if you'd only given W a little bit more time to get her sh*t figured out?" So, I'm not breathing down her neck at this point in time, but I'm not in denial about what she's up to either.

Early on one NYEs at midnight she went into the bathroom after ball drop with her phone for like 15 minutes. Obviously texting someone HNY. I pressed her for her phone and she wouldn’t give it to me. I left and went to my friends. She called and I didn’t answer. She kept calling and I finally answered and I just said “you better fuching call a lawyer” and hung up. The next day she wanted to meet to talk and she offered up her phone and to give me password. My regret now was not to say right then “you are either in or out”. I spent the next 3 years cohabiting with a very unhappy woman which is fun stuff lol. However, on the plus side I got to spend 3 more years with my kids full time. That part of my life is basically a blur now.

Was this New Year's Eve thing before or after you picked up her phone that one day to check the weather and saw that it had a passcode? Was the New Year's Eve texting to the idiot down the street whose marriage was rocky? I'm sure if I said to W today, "You're either in or you're out" she would tell me that she's in, but what would that be worth?

I was like you I don’t think I could have blown out my family. There is no shame in staying for the kids. There is no shame if you get to a point where you had enough. I’m sorry to say though make no mistake about it your w is planning her exit strategy.

LH, would you say your wife is driven and determined? Is she a type A personality? Because my wife is not. I mentioned her struggles with indecisiveness a couple posts above. I could see this situation dragging on for quite a while short of me getting to the point where I've had enough. I struggle with that mightily. My 14-year-old son, who has been challenging at times in the past and didn't do that well in middle school, just got straight A's his first quarter in high school. He is closer to me than my wife, but he still talks to her every day. I have a good fatherly relationship with the younger two boys but there is no question they gravitate to W. I actually think she has done a better job of being a more present and active mom recently, after what I would consider a high water mark of her MLC this past summer. Right now, the thought of pulling the rug out from the kids guts me. At the same time, I have a lot of resentment towards W for the bullshyt she's putting me through. I wouldn't say that I have a big ego (in my own opinion) but it's a tough swallow "allowing" her to be on her phone with some arsehole all this time.

If you’re still having sex she is most likely having an EA. Most women won’t cheat on their APs if it is a real affair.

Ok, so we're still having frequent sex. She initiates it half the time. I'm not going to delude myself that she may well be fantasizing about EA partner during that stuff, but whatever. After 18 years together, I've certainly had some wayward thoughts of my own in my head at one time or another during sexy time. What can I say?

I stay on this board to pay it forward and let people know that their life isn’t over and that the journey is a wild ride and to try to take it all in knowing there are valuable lessons to be learned along the way.

Keep us posted. The holidays can be difficult.

If you or anyone else can chime in about the concept of joint or separate bank accounts... so W and I have had a joint account for quite a long time. I am unsure how to handle this with the breast augmentation approaching. On one hand, I would have recourse if she got the procedure done and then bolted for divorce. I don't necessarily know if I want to be punitive with an immediate move toward getting my paycheck direct-deposited into a different account because W could conceivably go to a lawyer and get a separation agreement drawn up wherein I owe a boatload in child support.
A lot to consider. But even though there are success stories on this board, I don't know what the catalyst would be in which W decides she's ready to re-commit to the marriage. You're right - it [censored] (@ss).

[LH19]

No, I don't have it and haven't asked for it. There's no point. She wouldn't give it to me. I think I wrote in one of my first posts that I would have to grab her phone out of her hands while it's open if I wanted to see anything. I don't plan to do that and no one suggested I do so. As far as the phone, you and Mach1 both wrote at one point something along the lines of "Who cares what TF your wife is up to? What are you doing to improve yourself?" and also "Do you want to be sitting on the porch at 80 wondering what if you'd only given W a little bit more time to get her sh*t figured out?" So, I'm not breathing down her neck at this point in time, but I'm not in denial about what she's up to either.

Looking back now I should have insisted that if we were going to stay married there could be no secrets amongst us.

Was this New Year's Eve thing before or after you picked up her phone that one day to check the weather and saw that it had a passcode? Was the New Year's Eve texting to the idiot down the street whose marriage was rocky?

No clue. I think he bowed out early but not sure. Could have been new young group of friends she was hanging out with. It was definitely secretive though.

I'm sure if I said to W today, "You're either in or you're out" she would tell me that she's in, but what would that be worth?

A lot if she meant it.

LH, would you say your wife is driven and determined? Is she a type A personality? Because my wife is not. I mentioned her struggles with indecisiveness a couple posts above.

Fuch no total B that is why she needs a man.

I could see this situation dragging on for quite a while short of me getting to the point where I've had enough. I struggle with that mightily.

It's tough when you have young children.

If you or anyone else can chime in about the concept of joint or separate bank accounts... so W and I have had a joint account for quite a long time.

I think if there is no immediate plans to split up than it's not worth it.

A lot to consider. But even though there are success stories on this board, I don't know what the catalyst would be in which W decides she's ready to re-commit to the marriage. You're right - it [censored] (@ss).

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

[Vapo]

For a W to recommit to marriage first she has to respect you as a man and as a person. That means you do not act out of fear of her. Because if you do, she will start using the fear against you. Womens sense these things and you will not be able to outbluff her. And you have to get rid of the fear what she might or might not do.

As fot the bank accounts go, there are many variables at work here, so the best advice would be to consult your lawyer and get and informed opionion.

One thing you have to remember, she's checked out of the marriage. If you are having sex with her, it might not be a bad idea to get yourself checked out medically, you cannot rely on her word. Sad fact, but it is what it is...

[Doug54]

I got annoyed tonight after I had made dinner and then taken the younger two kids to the library while W ran … the issue arose when I was heading out to go for a walk and she said she had “homework” and couldn’t I get them to bed? I said it was the same “9:00 stuff every night” and I was getting tired of it (this is her sneaky time to be buried on her phone). She feigned indignation and I said she wasn’t in on the marriage and I was over it.

I made reference to sleeping apart and separate bank accounts where she pays for her boob job and phone bill. Terrible DBing, but I feel tired of kicking the can down the road. Didn’t Sandi advocate boundaries and consequences for wayward wives? We definitely have no mobility for separate living arrangements right now but I’m ready to pull some of the cake away.

[LH19]

I said it was the same “9:00 stuff every night” and I was getting tired of it (this is her sneaky time to be buried on her phone).

" I am sorry W not tonight I need some space to think".

She feigned indignation and I said she wasn’t in on the marriage and I was over it.

What was her response to you saying she wasn't in on the marriage?

I made reference to sleeping apart and separate bank accounts where she pays for her boob job and phone bill.

Not necessarily a bad thing to tell her. The question is did you say it out of emotion and did you mean it?

Terrible DBing, but I feel tired of kicking the can down the road.

What do you mean kicking the can down the road?

Didn’t Sandi advocate boundaries and consequences for wayward wives?

Yes! Sandi and I do/did not give advice straight out of the DB book.

We definitely have no mobility for separate living arrangements right now but I’m ready to pull some of the cake away.

Doug you have to tell me what your goals are right now. Are you trying to get your kids through a specific time in their lives or are you trying to draw your W back to the marriage?

[LH19]

What's going on Doug? W sleeping on the couch?

[Doug54]

What's going on Doug? W sleeping on the couch?

Ha, no. To be honest, I hardly even remember much of the conversation I wrote about above, even though it was only 6 days ago. Nothing has changed - same sleeping quarters, same incidence of bedroom activities with probably the same ratio of who initiates, same passcode on the phone.

I try to bear in mind the points from you and Mach1 about space and time being the only things that might resolve these situations. I've had to resist doing a temperature check where I ask W if she wants to go out to eat together while my parents watch the kids. I mean, just out of curiosity to see what her response would be. So far I haven't pushed it.

As you know, I'm mostly against pulling the rip cord and upending the kids' home life in drastic fashion. I still think that there's an MLC component to all this in which W feels bad about where she is in life.

I wish I had a more substantive update...been reading the new guy's thread and living vicariously through that a little.

Doug you have to tell me what your goals are right now. Are you trying to get your kids through a specific time in their lives or are you trying to draw your W back to the marriage?

I'm sorry to say, I guess kinda both. I do feel like I vacillate sometimes between the approach of giving all the space in the world and the boundaries/tough love approach to a WW advocated by you and Sandi. What do you recommend? If it's MLC or even a milder form of some mid-life transition, the boundary thing of saying the passcode must come off the phone if we're in a marriage seems ill-advised.

[Vapo]

Doug you have to tell me what your goals are right now. Are you trying to get your kids through a specific time in their lives or are you trying to draw your W back to the marriage?

I'm sorry to say, I guess kinda both. I do feel like I vacillate sometimes between the approach of giving all the space in the world and the boundaries/tough love approach to a WW advocated by you and Sandi. What do you recommend? If it's MLC or even a milder form of some mid-life transition, the boundary thing of saying the passcode must come off the phone if we're in a marriage seems ill-advised.

You can do a temp check if you wish, just do not put your feeling on the line and don't get your expectations up. There is no magic bullet, no magic shortcut, no miracle cure to snap your W out of it. This $hit takes time.

As far as phone codes go, it really does not matter one way or the other, unless she is 100% commited to the marriage and hassaid so herself in no uncertain terms.

If she is not commited to the marriage, it does not matter who she calls, messages or schtumps for that matter.

Main thing is, she's got to want to come back to the marriage, not be coerced, tricked or fooled. You have to became the man's man, the alpha, she has to feel the weakness in ker knees when you enter the room and above all, she has to respect you. Before anything happens, respect has to happen.

Don't wait for the respect to happen, do your thing. Crush it with the kids, crush it at work, start working out, do not invite her anywhere if she is not commited to the marriage. Update your wardrobe, go out even if it's just by yourself. Do not pick up women, but a little flirting does wonders for your confidence.

[LH19]

I try to bear in mind the points from you and Mach1 about space and time being the only things that might resolve these situations.

Well when I say it I mean time apart (space). Very rarely do you see in house separation work.

I've had to resist doing a temperature check where I ask W if she wants to go out to eat together while my parents watch the kids. I mean, just out of curiosity to see what her response would be. So far I haven't pushed it.

It's ok to do it if when she kicks you in the balls you don't get butt hurt.

As you know, I'm mostly against pulling the rip cord and upending the kids' home life in drastic fashion.

I understand and was on the same boat as you.

I still think that there's an MLC component to all this in which W feels bad about where she is in life.

Yep. All those Disney movies, Rom Coms that she has watched do not compare to the life she has now. She needs a change. She can't imagine doing this for another 30 years.

I'm sorry to say, I guess kinda both. I do feel like I vacillate sometimes between the approach of giving all the space in the world and the boundaries/tough love approach to a WW advocated by you and Sandi.

Well since you have indicated that you are still inside her from time to time that is the complete opposite of giving space lol.

What do you recommend?

Man this is a loaded question because I am on the other side. I have been on this board close to 8 years and there are very few recons in regards to WWs. There have been quite a few who have reconned and been back here a couple years later. Even SteveLW a famous LBH recon shows up here once a year wanting to D his wife. The advice here is solid to move on and have a great life if you stick to the GAL, 180 self improvement model. The problem is it doesn't work for recons immediately which is what most people come here for in the first place. I know my exw reacted favorably when I made strong moves when she was not settled on a decision.

If it's MLC or even a milder form of some mid-life transition, the boundary thing of saying the passcode must come off the phone if we're in a marriage seems ill-advised.

I think ideally you want to get to a place where something like that is absolutely unacceptable to you.

You can do a temp check if you wish, just do not put your feeling on the line and don't get your expectations up. There is no magic bullet, no magic shortcut, no miracle cure to snap your W out of it. This $hit takes time.

Agreed.

As far as phone codes go, it really does not matter one way or the other, unless she is 100% committed to the marriage and has said so herself in no uncertain terms.

It only matters if it is unacceptable to you and you act on it as being unacceptable.

If she is not committed to the marriage, it does not matter who she calls, messages or schtumps for that matter.

It only matters if it is unacceptable to you and you act on it as being unacceptable.

Main thing is, she's got to want to come back to the marriage, not be coerced, tricked or fooled.

Agree 100%

You have to became the man's man, the alpha, she has to feel the weakness in ker knees when you enter the room and above all, she has to respect you.

Agree 100%. This is the tricky part. She knows you know what she is up to and you are not doing anything about it so it is hard for her to respect you.

Before anything happens, respect has to happen.

Agree 100%. This is the tricky part. She knows you know what she is up to and you are not doing anything about it so it is hard for her to respect you.

Don't wait for the respect to happen, do your thing. Crush it with the kids, crush it at work, start working out, do not invite her anywhere if she is not committed to the marriage.

Agree 100%. You have to be relentless.

Update your wardrobe, go out even if it's just by yourself. Do not pick up women, but a little flirting does wonders for your confidence.

There was a poster on here years ago named TXhubby. He moped around for 3 years as his W ran around on him. Almost killed him. He finally had enough and got in shape and GAL like a madman. His Ws friends started to take interest in him and his W begged to have him back. He became someone of value and that's worth having.

Any how keep us updated.

[SteveLW]

I am on the side of not temp checking. Temp checking LBSs almost never can keep their expectations in check. So it is just better to avoid temp checks at all. We have a saying around here, "when a WAS wants to come back to the marriage, you will know it. When they don't you will be confused."

Boundaries are not about controlling her or her behavior. It is about controlling yourself. Anytime you have a boundary that tries to control her, then it isn't a proper boundary. For instance, telling her that a boundary is that her phone remain unlocked is NOT a boundary. That is you trying to control what you cannot.

Now, you may have a boundary that you will not tolerate her being on the phone with other men (text, voice, etc) around you. And your action if she does that is to leave! See the difference? Boundary crossed, Doug takes action. If she can cross a boundary and there is no action you can take (ie having a passcoded phone), then you are trying to control something you have no control over.

Now, if she ever comes back to the marriage and wants to recommit, then you can sit down and tell her what the requirements for that are. Full transparency, no unlocked phones or you know the passcode to it, you know about all of her personal accounts and what the passwords to those are, etc. If she refuses then you know that she is not really ready to recommit to the marriage. and you can act accordingly (continue DBing, file for D if your deadline for waiting is past, etc).

Most LBSs, and especially LBHs, struggle because they try to control things they have no control over.

[Kind18]

Most LBSs, and especially LBHs, struggle because they try to control things they have no control over.

Very, very true. Steve speaks the truth!

[LH19]

Yo Doug how was Thanksgiving?

[Doug54]

Yo Doug how was Thanksgiving?

LH, you tend to check in for all the major holidays, don't you?

Thanksgiving was ok. W's brother and his family visited and everyone had a good time. W's mother had had a medical procedure around the end of October and wasn't able to make it (along with W's father) so most of the family made the out-of-town trek the next day to visit them. I planned to go as well since I've never had a problem with her parents, but I was getting a vibe that W was reluctant for me to go along. It felt like she was going out of her way to not make it overly apparent, that I *could* attend if I wanted to, but I figured what points could be won by forcing myself into close quarters with W for an overnight stay? We do have several pets that didn't have accommodations, so it was arguably convenient for me to remain home. As soon as W arrived at her parents', she texted me that her folks were wondering why I didn't come. Her father texted me a while later saying he was sorry I couldn't make it and hoped I would next time. (It's clear she's never breathed a syllable about marital discontent to her folks.)

I've always suspected that whomever W connected with (and conceivably continues to be sneaky on her phone with) was someone from her past. No concrete reason, just an assumption since they originally talked on Facebook Messenger and the replay phase of MLC can involve an attempted return to youth (uh, right?). Anyhow, I couldn't help myself and asked S14 after they returned if W had gone off on her own at any point during the visit. He told me that she hadn't and had been with the family the entire time.

I don't see any evidence that W is sneaking around locally in a full-blown EA/PA but I do think that would be a dealbreaker for me at this point if I were to find out.

W is getting her breast augmentation done in a few weeks. My stepdaughter is driving her to the place, a few hours away. W got a recommendation for the facility from a former college friend. From what I gather, she's financing the procedure. I'd probably be intrigued with the whole thing if the marriage were on firmer ground, but I'm less than enamored as it is. Whatever...nothing I can really do to stop it. W and I both get our paychecks deposited into the same joint account, and I haven't yet been inclined to split them apart. Divorce isn't on the front burner yet. Any thoughts on this?

Stepson 19 and S6 had birthdays on back-to-back days. I was the only one to get them gifts or a cake. W is still a good mom but she's wrapped in the selfish throes of MLC a fair amount of the time. To be fair, W was raised in a cult-ish church that didn't celebrate any holidays other than Thanksgiving, and her parents didn't make much of a fuss over birthdays, either. I typically took the lead on gift-giving during our marriage, even in the past, but I don't recall W completely sitting on the sidelines 100%.

I've probably regressed on fully GALing since the days have gotten shorter. I keep up with the gym and try to do as much with the kids as possible.

I have read a few threads on the board recently, despite not posting much. I got sucked into Gordie's tale and his wife's crazy behavior. I am terrible at not heeding Mach1's advice to not extrapolate too much from other posters' situations onto one's own. One person had written in Gordie's thread that their spouse had been an MLC wallower for two years before running and running. So now I'm convinced that's what's in store for me.

I try not to borrow tomorrow's trouble today, but I do wonder how to play it if W's mindset is to have sneaky fun on the side without blowing up the family (and filing herself). What if there's no movement on her part next summer but I'm tired of where the marriage is? Technically, neither of us can kick the other spouse out of the house. I feel like I need a sort of game plan to keep in the back of my head along with a potential drop-dead date. Does anyone think next summer is too soon for such a date? That would be about a year and a half hence the start of my situation. I also would want some sort of confirmation of the extent of W's waywardness, before fully nuking the kids' household.

I wonder about the seeming contrast between "a MLC has to run its course- there's nothing you can do to alter it" vs the tough-love approach advocated by Sandi and a few others. I definitely don't have the stomach for a years' long dead-ish marriage. My line of thinking is unquestionably colored by all I've read on these boards. For instance, W lifted my shirt and scratched my back after coming to bed three straight nights last week, something that hadn't happened in a long time. I enjoyed it but also chalked it up to some wayward wife strategy. My IC said it's important to try to appreciate the little things in the moment during this time. That's another reason I don't try to play defense when W initiates nookie.

Any thoughts on my situation are welcome as always. I apologize for not posting on other threads, but as you can see, I still don't really have my own house in order.

[Ready2Change]

I apologize for not posting on other threads, but as you can see, I still don't really have my own house in order.

Your name should be included in this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940028#Post2940028

[DnJ]

Hi Doug

I was just going to say what R2C did.

Reach out. You’ve got insights and hard-earned wisdom.

Believe me, a few sincere words from a fellow traveller can have a huge positive affect.

D

[DnJ]

Please start a new thread.

[Doug54]

New thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2940157&#Post2940157