Hi all, I'm new here and no offence, I wish I wasn't here, ha (I know you'll know what I mean by that). I'm so happy to have found this community. I have read the Divorce Remedy, which is how I came to hear of divorce busting. My husband walked out on me in April, the night before our 5th wedding anniversary. In total, we had been together 8 years. One thing I must say up front is there is no other woman. 100% on that.
My husband had a very traumatic childhood and is now in his fifties. His mother walked out when he was 7 and his sister 5. The night he left me, he told me he feels he only has twenty-something years left of life and that he's not happy and doesn't want to spend the rest of his life unhappy.
It's all my fault apparently - I was nagging, critical, he couldn't do anything etc. Shortly after he left me, he was diagnosed with ADHD (when by chance I heard a guy on a radio show talking about being diagnosed with the condition as an adult and realised as I listened that my husband had all the same symptoms).
I mention that to explain that our relationship had become a parent/child one as my husband could not be trusted to remember any important tasks. I guess to him, that was me nagging - I'm sure it was, but feel I had good reason. Now of course, I wish I'd done things differently.
We occasionally talk and see other each rarely. However, we are meeting for lunch later today (I live in Asia.) When I see him, he is like a stranger, possessed. Even his eyes look different. But then sometimes there are flashes of the old man I knew. Yesterday, I had to have a hospital procedure done and when he found out, he transferred money to my account to pay for half, without me having asked.
We have no kids, just a dog and two cats. I occasionally send him photos of the animals and he tells me he misses them. He still wears his wedding ring but is adamant the marriage is over on the couple of occasions I've asked if we could please try to fix things (I know...)
What really scares me is that he keeps talking about looking for a new job overseas. I know divorce busting calls for patience but I'm so scared I'll lose him if he moves country before I've had a chance to put any plan into action.
At our lunch meeting later today, I was planning on asking if he'd agree to regular weekly meet-ups just as a way to "stay friends" - otherwise I never know when or if I'll see him, which makes putting any strategy into play very difficult. Is it wise to ask that?
Thank you all.
I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmand Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Reeling,
Most here would advise it is NOT wise to request regular meet ups. In fact, you should di the opposite - be less available, be mysterious, act happy and cheerful like you're interested in the prospect of your newfound freedom. Make him wonder if HE is going to lose YOU.
I'm on the road but will respond more later. Hopefully others will chime in.
I agree with BL42. Regular meetups are a bad thing, it will make him feel like he can go and blow his life up but still keep you in his back pocket (it’s called monkey branching, or plan B around here).
You’ll come across a saying here from many of the veterans who are wiser than me, which is “You can’t nice them back.” That’s probably the single hardest thing for a LBS, new to this site, to understand and enact.
This will probably fry your brain … (because we’ve all spent a lifetime being taught that to win or obtain something you want, you have to try harder and harder) … but ironically, your best chance of getting him back would be to say “I don’t want to meet up with you any more. This is not what I wanted, but I respect your decision. I’ve started packing your things, you can pick them up at xxx date and xxx time.” And then walk out and leave.
But that’s near-on impossible for a newcomer to do. There’s no way I could have done it at my bomb drop.
Also, regarding your 100% certainty that there’s no-one else - I’ve been around this site and several others for three years now, and have heard that hundreds of times from Newcomers. But in 99% of those cases, there is someone else. They hide it very well. They lie, they cheat, they cover their tracks. Normally the surety that there’s no-one else comes from you believing you have an incredibly deep connection and understanding of your spouse. But you aren’t the first, and won’t be the last, to discover by the time they bomb drop, they can be a shell of who they used to be/who you thought they were for many years.
Gosh… I’ve just read my post, and boy it’s got some pretty harsh truth bombs for someone who has just arrived here. I guess I just want you to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
You’re in good hands with the people at this website, hopefully some of the top-notch veterans will be along soon to help you out. They ooze compassion, understanding and great knowledge of what is, quite frankly, a sh*t sandwich.
I’m sorry you’re here. One day, you’ll be okay. We can’t tell you how long that will take, or how it will look (divorced or reconciled), but I guarantee that one day, you’ll be okay again.
Dear Reeling,
I’m so sorry you’re here.
By the time most LBS arrive here, they’ve already tried pleading, bargaining with their ex and that failed. The typical DB advice is to be LESS available as what we can’t have is often more desirable than what we can easily have. Consistent actions would be to cancel lunch and not reschedule, not meet weekly as “friends” since that’s not what you two are (you would presumably not be happy for him if he began dating someone kind, sext, and rich), and stop sending those animal pics. In other words let him miss who you are and what you two had together.
But in 99% of those cases, there is someone else.
It’s not that high—there was no AP in my situation and several others I could name at the time of BD—but at least 80% who insist there’s no AP end up discovering one. Challenge your assumption, especially if it’s based on words or you think he couldn’t find time, but don’t fall deep into paranoia if you’re certain that’s not the case or at least not why he left.
How did he find out? How do you see each other rarely? GAL and 180s are a huge focus of DB and people often underestimate how much of it their ex will find out about through social media, friends in common, arranged pickups of things from the home, random encounters, etc. Living your best life instead of being stuck in grieving mode tends to make you more attractive. I challenge you to consider one item to add to each of your GAL and 180s lists and work on those!
Traveler - the percentage is a little lower when women leave, but when men leave the odds of an OW are well over 95%. Yes, I thought my exH wasn’t cheating when I first came here too! (Silly me!!!)
Traveler - the percentage is a little lower when women leave, but when men leave the odds of an OW are well over 95%. Yes, I thought my exH wasn’t cheating when I first came here too! (Silly me!!!)
Interesting notion. Could be! The four no-cheating situations that sprung to mind all involved women walking away.
Reeling,
One thing I must say up front is there is no other woman. 100% on that.
As others have mentioned, brace yourself for the likelihood there is another party involved. Whether the percentage is 80 or 99, the point is in the vast majority of cases here it ends up coming to light at some point that the spouse leaving is/was having an affair...even when the LBS swears up and down it's not possible.
The night he left me, he told me he feels he only has twenty-something years left of life and that he's not happy and doesn't want to spend the rest of his life unhappy.
It's very possible he was unhappy. Most people leaving are trying to find happiness, and don't realize happiness comes from within and other people/things can't make them happy in the long run.
It's all my fault apparently - I was nagging, critical, he couldn't do anything etc.
I mention that to explain that our relationship had become a parent/child one as my husband could not be trusted to remember any important tasks. I guess to him, that was me nagging - I'm sure it was, but feel I had good reason. Now of course, I wish I'd done things differently.
Certainly examine what you can do better / change about yourself, but also don't let his story define you - many times it's about the WS/WAS, not the LBS.
We occasionally talk and see other each rarely.
Do you know where he's living?
We have no kids, just a dog and two cats.
Not to make light of your situation, because I know it's difficult, but in many ways no kids is going to make this much easier.
I occasionally send him photos of the animals and he tells me he misses them.
Stop sending him photos.
He still wears his wedding ring but is adamant the marriage is over on the couple of occasions I've asked if we could please try to fix things (I know...)
You've asked. Now stop asking. If he wants to reconcile he knows where to find you.
What really scares me is that he keeps talking about looking for a new job overseas. I know divorce busting calls for patience but I'm so scared I'll lose him if he moves country before I've had a chance to put any plan into action.
You need to find a way to drop your fear. With fear you'll beg and plead and ask him to reconsider and he'll know you're weak and on the hook. Without fear you'll be confident knowing you're going to have a good life whether he's a part of it or not, and that's more attractive. Ask yourself what's the worst that can happen? He moves away and you get divorced. I know that sounds awful now - and I certainly don't wish it upon anyone - but you WILL be alright regardless. When you look back on this in a year or two you'll realize how far you've come and not be fearful of the future anymore.
At our lunch meeting later today, I was planning on asking if he'd agree to regular weekly meet-ups just as a way to "stay friends" - otherwise I never know when or if I'll see him, which makes putting any strategy into play very difficult. Is it wise to ask that?
How did lunch go?
Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for your responses and feedback; I truly appreciate it.
So, honestly, I know I sound naïve and may never convince some of you, but there truly, honestly is no other woman. I am fully aware there may be eventually. Right now, there is not. I have so many reasons for saying this and won't go into them all. There have been too many occasions when I have found him/seen him sitting in a bar with a male friend or two at a time when if there was another woman he would be with her.
This is not my only reason for saying this. We have had very honest conversations (please believe me on this) and he has told me more than once that there is nobody else, there was nobody else and he will tell me if there ever is anybody else, before I find out from someone else. Whatever about everything else that has gone on, I believe him on this. I know I sound naïve, there's not much I can do about that.
We live in Thailand, therefore most of the women are Asian. He is not attracted to Thai girls, never has been. That is just another factor.
He recently got back from a visit to friends and family in England, where he's from. On his return, he got straight off a long-haul flight and went to a bar to meet his (male) friends to watch a big game. I know this, because I walked into the bar a few minutes after him, totally not expecting him to be there. He'd been away for 3 weeks. Again, at the risk of sounding naïve, wouldn't the logical thing be for him to go straight from his flight to the other woman? Except there isn't one.
Another way I know: his friends, including his best friend, have talked to me without him knowing. They have told me they think he's losing his mind. They have also told me there is 100% nobody else (which is partly why they can't understand what he's doing).
I'll leave it there, rather than risk having this entire response become me listing reasons why there is nobody else. There just isn't. Fully aware that may change but for now...
I have tried cutting contact because I was instigating most of it. So I went dark. It achieved nothing. He went dark too. We didn't see, hear, or speak to each other and it broke my heart. He did not appear to miss me - I'm just basing that on the fact that he didn't break NC. I eventually resumed contact as I couldn't see how I could save my marriage if we weren't in contact.
I also tried doing a 180 - I flew to New York and stayed with a friend for two weeks. This is a BIG DEAL, it is a journey over nearly 30 hours from here. I did it while he was in England and he was shocked and taken aback when he found out. Not sure it achieved anything else other than significantly lightening my wallet, ha.
I am working on myself but how can he ever see that if we don't see each other? He very, very rarely uses social media. We have very few friends in common that would feed anything back to him about me doing GAL or moving on or anything like that. The friends I mentioned earlier who spoke to me to say they think he's losing his mind and there is nobody else are not here - they are all in England.
We met for lunch yesterday and had the best day. I decided no relationship talk, no heavy stuff, just keep it light and fun. When lunch was over, I suggested a drink somewhere and he agreed. We ended up spending about 6 hours together, all of which consisted of laughter and good conversation. At one point, he talked about his trip to England and I asked him what his friends had said when he told them about our break-up (he does not know obviously that his friends have all contacted me).
He replied, "They all told me to think very carefully about what I'm doing - to make sure I'm not making a mistake".
I just replied by saying, "Well, that's good advice" and left it at that.
But I was glad he was honest in his reply and didn't just say something like, "Oh, they were just sad to hear the news".
He dropped me home early evening. We live on a beautiful island and a lot of people go to the beach in the evening to watch the sunset. I told him I would be taking the dog to do that and asked if he wanted to join us (I know, I shouldn't have). He said no, that he had to get home, but then added, "but maybe during the week?" I said that would be nice.
He has left all his stuff here since he walked out in April. All he has with him are some clothes and his toothbrush and shaver. He even left all his aftershave here and when I do see him, he usually looks unshaven, tired, stressed. I mean, really, I do not think there is someone else... He is staying in a tiny condo he has described as a "sh*thole" (sorry, I hope that's allowed!).
Yesterday, before he left, he asked if he could take two pieces of Tupperware as he doesn't have any at his place. There's a whole cupboard of the stuff at my place (most of it collected by him - we used to joke about it). I said of course, then pointed at a George Foreman grill I had bought him just before he walked out, as he'd been saying he really wanted to get one. I asked him if he wanted to take it. He hesitated, then said, "no, that's okay for now. Things are complicated right now, aren't they?"
I have no idea what that meant, I just shrugged and said, "okay, up to you".
He had brought me a jar of pickled onions he'd got while visiting his Dad in England - his Dad makes these and they're super spicy. My husband can't eat them but knows I like them and his Dad had asked him to give them to me.
So after he left, I decided try one but could not get the lid off the glass jar, it was screwed so tightly shut. So I messaged him (we communicate via WhatsApp) and told him, throwing in a few laughing emojis and making a joke of it.
He responded, "I will fix for you" and put a kiss at the end of the message. (Not wanting to read too much into that but he hasn't done that for a while).
To answer how he found out I was having a minor procedure (needed an MRI for an arm injury) and paid for half of it - I told him.
I've had a few calls with coach Joann but the last one was in June. I know I should go dark but I'm worried that all that will happen if I do that is that he goes dark too. And we just continue in darkness indefinitely. I am trying to bring him back in from the cold.
I appreciate all your support so much. Thank you and sorry this is a bit long.
Hi again everyone, this is my second post today but the first one hasn't been approved yet. Hopefully this will be approved at the same time. There is a big time difference between where I am and where most of you are, I guess.
I am really struggling with terrible sadness today. Just because we had such a great day yesterday so now I am missing him so badly. I just desperately want to pick up the phone and ask him to please come by so we can talk and decide to fix things. Obviously I'm not going to do that but God, it's so hard.
I'm sorry, it's me again, but I have a question that has been really bothering me and it's why I resist going dark and in fact, had been thinking of asking if we could have regular meet-ups. The question is related to this rule of Sandi's:
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
If I don't schedule a meet-up, we NEVER see each other. If I don't initiate a text, we NEVER speak. Therefore, how on earth can the R get "much better" during total radio silence and never seeing each other? This is what I'm struggling so much to understand. I almost start to panic at the idea that I will never be able to implement divorce busting strategies if I never see or hear from him. It doesn't help that he keeps making comments about moving overseas.
Can anyone help me understand this? Thank you!
I've tried to respond here but am not seeing my responses. Not sure how long it takes for them to appear?
Hi everyone, I posted a couple of responses here the other day but they never appeared so I am trying again and really hope this response shows up!
Thank you so much for your feedback.
There are so many reasons I know there is no OW but I don’t want to make my entire response consist of me pointing out why there is no OW. There truly isn’t. This is not me being naiive; this is what his very good friends have also told me. He also recently arrived back after off a long-haul flight to see his family in his home country and three hours off the flight, I found him sitting in a bar watching a game with his (male) friends. On the rare occasions I bump into him, he is alone or with male friends. And, despite the pain he is causing me right now, he has never lied to me and I trust he is not lying now. I have asked him on more than one occasion to tell me if there is someone else. He has vowed this is not and there never was. He has promised to tell me if there ever is, before I find out any other way. Anyway, I won’t go on. I am satisfied there is no OW. I am also aware that could change.
Our lunch on Sunday turned into about 5 hours together. After a great lunch, with no relationship talk, just lots of laughter and light chat, we went for a drive. Then we stopped somewhere for a drink. Then another drive, then another stop for a few games of pool. However, I will admit that all the suggestions of going somewhere (to extend our time together) came from me, not him. Perhaps if I hadn’t, he would have just dropped me home after an hour or so of lunch and that would have been that. I have no way of knowing but I will say that each time (twice in total) I suggested going somewhere else, he agreed pretty quickly, without hesitation.
He talked to me about his visit home. I knew his friends had talked to him during that time as several of them have spoken to me (including his best friend) to say they think he’s making a huge mistake and that they have told him to think very carefully about what he’s doing. However, he obviously does not know that his friends have spoken to me (I know this is also not a good DB strategy.)
Over lunch the other day, when he talked about meeting up with his friends while he was home, I asked what they had said when he told them about our split. I wanted to see if he’d just brush it off by saying something like, “oh, they were just sorry to hear it”. Instead, he was completely honest with me and replied with, “they all told me to think carefully about what I’m doing and make sure I’m not making a mistake”. I really did appreciate that honesty. Rightly or wrongly, I took some hope from it – that maybe their words hit home and he is doing some thinking. Of course, I don’t know.
I just replied casually with, “well, that’s good advice” and left it at that. Of course, now I regret not asking him if he is thinking hard about things as they suggested or if he has already made up his mind. But that would have been relationship talk.
He dropped me home after our day together. We live on a beautiful tropical island, where people frequently go to the beach in the evening to watch the sunset – something we did a lot of before BD. I told him I might take the dog to the beach for sunset and asked if he wanted to join. At that point, he declined and said he had to get home. Then he added, “but maybe during the week?” I said that would be nice.
His dad makes pickles and he gave me a jar of pickled onions his father had made for me as he knows (the father does) that I like them. After my husband left, I decided to try one but couldn’t get the jar open – the lid was screwed so tight. I sent him a message joking about being unable to open the jar. He replied with, “I will fix for you x”. Not trying to read into anything, but he rarely puts kisses at the end of messages to me since the separation.
The following morning (Monday) I sent him a funny video of our cat. He did not reply. It’s been over hours and I’ve heard nothing. I keep thinking about how he’d said maybe a trip to the beach for sunset during the week might be an option but I’m telling myself not to suggest it – leave it to him. I fear he won’t. There is also a chance he may have to go overseas for business this week (only around 3 days as not far), in which case the beach wouldn’t happen anyway. My worry is that I won’t know either way if he doesn’t contact me.
My longest period of not initiating contact was just 12 days. During that time, he didn’t contact me. It was hell on earth.
I have tried so much already. I am working on myself, accept my role in the marriage breakdown, etc I have done a 180 – flew to NYC (a 30 hour journey from where we live) out of the blue while he was away visiting his family. He was shocked when he found out, but it made no difference to anything really, just lightened my bank balance significantly!
We hardly ever see each other unless I suggest it. He also keeps mentioning that he might move overseas. This kills me. I don’t know what to do. Sorry this is so long.
One thing I forgot to mention is that several of his friends and family members told me that he broke down crying while talking to them about us. He has done the same to me a few times I've tried to have the relationship talk.
To add, he has left all his stuff here since he walked out in April. All he has with him are some clothes and his toothbrush and shaver. He even left all his aftershave here and when I do see him, he usually looks unshaven, tired, stressed. I mean, really, I do not think there is someone else... He is staying in a tiny condo he has described as a "sh*thole" (sorry, I hope that's allowed!).
He has continued to wear his wedding ring through all of this. I don't know if I should read anything in to that.
Anyway, I have had a few calls with coach Joann but the last one was in June, so I have booked another for a few days' time.
Another thing: my husband was diagnosed with ADHD shortly after BD. I have since read so much online about how undiagnosed ADHD can destroy a marriage. I feel so sad that we now have a diagnosis that explains what was causing (most of) our problems and that he doesn't appear to want to use that to fix how we interact and save our marriage.
To add, he has left all his stuff here since he walked out in April. All he has with him are some clothes and his toothbrush and shaver. He even left all his aftershave here and when I do see him, he usually looks unshaven, tired, stressed. I mean, really, I do not think there is someone else... He is staying in a tiny condo he has described as a "sh*thole" (sorry, I hope that's allowed!).
He has continued to wear his wedding ring through all of this. I don't know if I should read anything in to that.
Anyway, I have had a few calls with coach Joann but the last one was in June, so I have booked another for a few days' time.
Another thing: my husband was diagnosed with ADHD shortly after BD. I have since read so much online about how undiagnosed ADHD can destroy a marriage. I feel so sad that we now have a diagnosis that explains what was causing (most of) our problems and that he doesn't appear to want to use that to fix how we interact and save our marriage.
So sorry to hear you're in this situation. Seems like you're handling this really well. It's awful feeling this way - especially seeing glimmers of hope (eg, wedding ring). I also recommend not talking to friends/family. Echoing what they said, it doesn't really help much. It's the WAH/MLC problem and nobody else's words will help.
I wanted to ask - who is Joann? I thought DB didn't have coaches anymore.
Thank you for your response, Newborn. I honestly don't know if DB offer coaches anymore - I was referred to Joann after I emailed Michele to ask about coaching.
Joann is great, very enthusiastic and lifts me up when I'm in the pit of despair. I haven't spoken to her for some time now as I did a 180/doing something different/shock and awe by jetting off to NYC without telling my husband. Not sure it had any effect, but he was also out of the country visiting his family so there was very little contact between us. For that reason, I didn't see the point in talking to Joann.
However, now that I am trying to resume contact/meetings with my husband, I need her guidance.
I'm so conflicted and the advice online and from friends is so contradictory. In some places, I read that I should go dark/no contact (particularly as I instigate 99% of our contact). In other places, I read that no contact might work for more casual "dating" type relationships, but not to fix a marriage, where the focus should be on restoring good communication. But what if I'm the only one instigating that communication?
At the same time, I don't want to look back on this time years from now and wish I'd just stopped spending so much time waiting waiting waiting for things to change and my husband to come back. I worry that I will regret not just sitting him down and trying to get him to agree to marriage coaching with me - even if he doesn't move back home straight away. Sometimes I feel his mind is made up, at other times I can sense real conflict within him. It's that sense of internal conflict in him that gives me hope but am I imagining it...
In some places, I read that I should go dark/no contact (particularly as I instigate 99% of our contact). In other places, I read that no contact might work for more casual "dating" type relationships, but not to fix a marriage
Ultimately you have to figure out what works for you. What works is typically counter intuitive. Even the definition of "what works" will change for you as you move through this process.
Would it be better to be scarce and let him miss you, or be in his presence and be the blame of his unhappiness? These are the type of question you can ask yourself.
You have been given a gift (Even if you can't see it now). Take the focus of your H and focus on finding your happy without him.
Take the focus of your H and focus on finding your happy without him.
Thanks Ready2Change. Right now, I cannot imagine living without him, that's the problem. I literally feel like I have a huge lump in my throat and the worst pain in my heart. I am just trying to get through each day without sobbing. I am constantly fighting the urge to ask him to meet me and then have "The Talk". I am so conflicted.
Thank you for listening.
I am not sure why you are still on moderation but I will see if I can get you off.
Sorry - keep posting.
Thanks Cadet, I think I am off now, but two earlier posts never appeared so I just re-wrote and re-posted them.
Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for your responses and feedback; I truly appreciate it.
So, honestly, I know I sound naïve and may never convince some of you, but there truly, honestly is no other woman. I am fully aware there may be eventually. Right now, there is not. I have so many reasons for saying this and won't go into them all. There have been too many occasions when I have found him/seen him sitting in a bar with a male friend or two at a time when if there was another woman he would be with her.
This is not my only reason for saying this. We have had very honest conversations (please believe me on this) and he has told me more than once that there is nobody else, there was nobody else and he will tell me if there ever is anybody else, before I find out from someone else. Whatever about everything else that has gone on, I believe him on this. I know I sound naïve, there's not much I can do about that.
We live in Thailand, therefore most of the women are Asian. He is not attracted to Thai girls, never has been. That is just another factor.
He recently got back from a visit to friends and family in England, where he's from. On his return, he got straight off a long-haul flight and went to a bar to meet his (male) friends to watch a big game. I know this, because I walked into the bar a few minutes after him, totally not expecting him to be there. He'd been away for 3 weeks. Again, at the risk of sounding naïve, wouldn't the logical thing be for him to go straight from his flight to the other woman? Except there isn't one.
Another way I know: his friends, including his best friend, have talked to me without him knowing. They have told me they think he's losing his mind. They have also told me there is 100% nobody else (which is partly why they can't understand what he's doing).
I'll leave it there, rather than risk having this entire response become me listing reasons why there is nobody else. There just isn't. Fully aware that may change but for now...
You may be 100% correct. Though we've had other LBSs here that were even more adamant that there was no one else. The caution here is to not put all your eggs in that basket. So many LBSs start DBing well under the belief there is no one else, then completely breakdown and forget DBing as soon as there is an OP revealed.
Regardless if there is another person or not, you have to be careful NOT to believe anything he says. Statements like "he said and I believe him because...." are dangerous statements for LBSs to say. If you truly believe there is no one else right now it should have NOTHING to do with what he says. Or what he promises to say in the future. HE IS COMPLETELY UNTRUSTWORTHY RIGHT NOW.
We on this forum have been through this multiple times with multiple LBSs, so you'll have to excuse our skepticism. There never is another person.........until there is. So while you may be convinced of this, it is likely that most of us will not be convinced no matter how adamant you are.
I have tried cutting contact because I was instigating most of it. So I went dark. It achieved nothing. He went dark too. We didn't see, hear, or speak to each other and it broke my heart. He did not appear to miss me - I'm just basing that on the fact that he didn't break NC. I eventually resumed contact as I couldn't see how I could save my marriage if we weren't in contact.
I am confused by what this means? "I went dark. It achieved nothing." This sounds like unrealistic expectations. "If I go dark, then he will start chasing me!" That is not the purpose of going dark. Going dark is for you to STOP pressuring and pursuing, and for you to start to learn to be happy by yourself again. Some call it emotional detachment. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to emotionally detach when you are constantly trying to reach out.
Lots of LBSs do things like "I'll go dark for a week. If I don't hear from them then I will reach out again. Because I am afraid that no contact for an extended amount of time will mean it is over!" This is letting fear guide you. DBing is not about saving the marriage (though most of us come here thinking it is). DBing is about stopping behaviors that will push the WAS away faster. And it is about accepting the inevitable that if the WAS wants a D, then they will eventually D you. DBing will let you move on happy and healthy. SOMETIMES (the % of the time is a hotly debated topic on this forum) it will have the effect of getting the WAS to question what they are doing, and even change their mind. But here is the rub: if you DB in order to change the WAS' mind it will rarely work. You really have to move forward with your life FOR YOU, and sometimes the WAS will decide to come along on the journey too.
What I can tell you is that DBing gives you 100% chance of eventually moving forward from this yourself, and gives you a much better chance of saving your marriage. Versus pressure and pursuit, and all of the activities that come along with that from an intuitive standpoint. Actively intuitively and pressuring and pursuing have almost a 0% chance of working.
I also tried doing a 180 - I flew to New York and stayed with a friend for two weeks. This is a BIG DEAL, it is a journey over nearly 30 hours from here. I did it while he was in England and he was shocked and taken aback when he found out. Not sure it achieved anything else other than significantly lightening my wallet, ha.
Did you do this in order to move yourself forward? Or to get his attention? How did he even find out?
If you do 180s and things like this (I'd argue this isn't a true 180, more of a 1 off activity) in order to get his attention, it will almost always backfire. Work on 180s for YOU!
I am working on myself but how can he ever see that if we don't see each other? He very, very rarely uses social media. We have very few friends in common that would feed anything back to him about me doing GAL or moving on or anything like that. The friends I mentioned earlier who spoke to me to say they think he's losing his mind and there is nobody else are not here - they are all in England.
More "I need to do things for him to see". Reeling this is fool's gold. You won't like this wording, but what you are doing is trying to manipulate him back to the MR. THe problem with that is that WASs always see through it. The minute they feel you are manipulating them back to the MR, they will no longer trust anything you say or do. We hear it all the time (and many of us heard it in our own situations) where the WAS says "you are only doing that, or changing, to get me back!"
You are DBing, and trying to see if it has any effect on him. He will see right through that. When you DB and keep looking over your shoulder to see if he notices, he will realize that you are simply doing this for his benefit. And he won't trust that the changes are lasting and permanent.
When you DB (GAL, self-improve, and emotionally detach) he will eventually see the changes! He may not decide to come back to the MR, but he will realize that you are different. Even if it means you go no contact for years! He'll eventually wake up one day and go, "Wow, Reeling hasn't contacted me in 2 years. She must have really moved on! Hmmm, I wonder what she is up to.
When you do it to get a reaction, that is expectations, and expectations will hold you back every single time.
We met for lunch yesterday and had the best day. I decided no relationship talk, no heavy stuff, just keep it light and fun. When lunch was over, I suggested a drink somewhere and he agreed. We ended up spending about 6 hours together, all of which consisted of laughter and good conversation. At one point, he talked about his trip to England and I asked him what his friends had said when he told them about our break-up (he does not know obviously that his friends have all contacted me).
He replied, "They all told me to think very carefully about what I'm doing - to make sure I'm not making a mistake".
I just replied by saying, "Well, that's good advice" and left it at that.
But I was glad he was honest in his reply and didn't just say something like, "Oh, they were just sad to hear the news".
He dropped me home early evening. We live on a beautiful island and a lot of people go to the beach in the evening to watch the sunset. I told him I would be taking the dog to do that and asked if he wanted to join us (I know, I shouldn't have). He said no, that he had to get home, but then added, "but maybe during the week?" I said that would be nice.
This is why pressure and pursuit is so dangerous. "Maybe during the week" is non-committal, and let's you down easy. He felt your pressure "Go to the beach with us!" and his response was to leave....but to let you down in a way that still gives him an out ("I said MAYBE"), but lets him off the hook for hurting you to your face.
He has left all his stuff here since he walked out in April. All he has with him are some clothes and his toothbrush and shaver. He even left all his aftershave here and when I do see him, he usually looks unshaven, tired, stressed. I mean, really, I do not think there is someone else... He is staying in a tiny condo he has described as a "sh*thole" (sorry, I hope that's allowed!).
This is a very common tale. I would read zero into any of this.
Yesterday, before he left, he asked if he could take two pieces of Tupperware as he doesn't have any at his place. There's a whole cupboard of the stuff at my place (most of it collected by him - we used to joke about it). I said of course, then pointed at a George Foreman grill I had bought him just before he walked out, as he'd been saying he really wanted to get one. I asked him if he wanted to take it. He hesitated, then said, "no, that's okay for now. Things are complicated right now, aren't they?"
I have no idea what that meant, I just shrugged and said, "okay, up to you".
Hopefully you've read on the forum and know that you cannot NICE him back to the relationship. So many LBSs, especially LBWs, think that being nice, having sex, being super wife, etc, will nice the WAS back to the marriage. I would have supported a "Sure, take whatever you need" to his request. But pointing to the Foreman and offering it was too much. I have less of a problem with this entire exchange than I do the fact that you were even meeting with him to begin with. These kind of meetings have a way of frustrating and confusing LBSs. Remember: When he wants to come back...you will know. When he doesn't, you will be confused.
He had brought me a jar of pickled onions he'd got while visiting his Dad in England - his Dad makes these and they're super spicy. My husband can't eat them but knows I like them and his Dad had asked him to give them to me.
So after he left, I decided try one but could not get the lid off the glass jar, it was screwed so tightly shut. So I messaged him (we communicate via WhatsApp) and told him, throwing in a few laughing emojis and making a joke of it.
He responded, "I will fix for you" and put a kiss at the end of the message. (Not wanting to read too much into that but he hasn't done that for a while).
More expectations.......... Reeling, so many LBSs read stuff into these exchanges. First, you reached out first (again). Second he threw you a bone with the onions and the response. But where is he? You want to read into a jar of onions and text message with a kiss....but are ignoring the fact that the guy lives somewhere else. Do not put hope in things you should not be dealing with! If he really wanted to be with you he'd have been home to open the jar for you.....not promise to do that later with a "kiss" emoji.
To answer how he found out I was having a minor procedure (needed an MRI for an arm injury) and paid for half of it - I told him.
I've had a few calls with coach Joann but the last one was in June. I know I should go dark but I'm worried that all that will happen if I do that is that he goes dark too. And we just continue in darkness indefinitely. I am trying to bring him back in from the cold.
I appreciate all your support so much. Thank you and sorry this is a bit long.
If you go dark and it goes into darkness indefinitely......then you will have your answer! I know you want to put your hope into a truth that you want, but you have to be open to the fact that the truth may not be what you want it to be. Your goal should be to get to the truth, not try to change it. YOu have no control except over yourself. So remove the focus from him and focuse on yourself.
I do not intend for these responses to be harsh, I intend to get you to see your situation for what it is. I was the same as you when early in my situation. It took honest responses to my posts go get me to wake up to the facts.
I'm sorry, it's me again, but I have a question that has been really bothering me and it's why I resist going dark and in fact, had been thinking of asking if we could have regular meet-ups. The question is related to this rule of Sandi's:
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
If I don't schedule a meet-up, we NEVER see each other. If I don't initiate a text, we NEVER speak. Therefore, how on earth can the R get "much better" during total radio silence and never seeing each other? This is what I'm struggling so much to understand. I almost start to panic at the idea that I will never be able to implement divorce busting strategies if I never see or hear from him. It doesn't help that he keeps making comments about moving overseas.
Can anyone help me understand this? Thank you!
You struggle with this because you do not understand why you should go dark. You think you should go dark to engender a change in behavior in him. I said in my previous response: "If I go dark, maybe he will start reaching out to me!"
You go dark because you are overly attached and need to work on emotional detachment. You go dark to remove your focus from him and saving your marriage and put it on you and your own self-improvements.
Reeling here is a simple truth: LBSs do not save their marriages from a position of weakness, they save their marriages from a position of strength!
Constantly reaching out and wanting regular meetups out of fear.....IS NOT A POSITION OF STRENGTH! Remember, there are no guarantees here. The likelihood is that you will end up D'd. Why? Because it takes two to make a marriage, only one to make a D. So drop your fear of D. Your problem is not whether or not he D's you. Your problem is how long you will allow him to hold you hostage? Do you want to be in limbo in 2 years from now?
One of the best pieces of advice I got in my situation was to set a drop dead date. In my case, it was one year after BD. It went like this: "If she isn't committed back to the MR fully and completely by the 1 year anniversary of BD, then I will go file for D myself." This gave me an end goal. To me, being in limbo for longer than a year was WORSE than ending up D'd.
Also, he has to feel a loss in order to have any chance of questioning what he is doing. You are not letting him feel your loss. You text, call, setup meetups. And that tells him "Hey, I can treat Reeling anyway I want, and if I want her back all I have to do is snap my fingers and she'll take me back!"
Sadly, he is right. The worst thing that could happen Reeling is for him to comeback and for you to have NO requirements for his return. All you would be doing is setting yourself up for another BD in the future.
So what does reconciliation look like to you? What are your requirements for his return? Have you even thought about this? If you let him waltz right back home, guess what? You will have taught him that he can just come and go as he pleases! "Oh, Reeling made me mad, I am moving out! Because I can always just move back in anytime I want. I have her wrapped around my little finger!" Again, that is a position of weakness.
There are plenty of examples of failed Rs here on this forum because the LBS let the WAS waltz right back in. You need to have requirements. And you need to stick to them.
Take the focus of your H and focus on finding your happy without him.
Thanks Ready2Change. Right now, I cannot imagine living without him, that's the problem. I literally feel like I have a huge lump in my throat and the worst pain in my heart. I am just trying to get through each day without sobbing. I am constantly fighting the urge to ask him to meet me and then have "The Talk". I am so conflicted.
Thank you for listening.
This is a huge red flag. Are you in IC? You need to get into IC, as soon as possible.
Reeling, the problem with over attachment like this is that we live in an imperfect world. Accidents, disease. violence, there are many ways that our loved ones can be taken from us. There is no guarantee that your WAH will be part of this earth tomorrow. And certainly there is no guarantee he will decide to be a part of your life moving forward. This is your number one 180: learn how to live in the future without him. IN fact, that is the only way you have a chance of ever having a successful R with him. No one wants the pressure of being the sole source of happiness for another person. That is a lot to put on him, if you think about it. I'd even say it is very selfish to put another person in charge of YOUR happiness.
Get into IC and work through your over attachment. Learn to be happy on your own. Make your goal to come out of this entire thing, whether he stays or goes, and a whole person, healthy and happy.
Thanks so much SteveLW for taking so much time to respond to my post. It's very kind of you and I really appreciate it. I think I've misunderstood what DB is all about. From what you're saying it appears to be something I'm supposed to do for myself and in doing so, there MAY be a side-effect that means my WAH comes back. My understanding was that DB was aimed at bringing him back - and saving my marriage. This is based on me having read The Divorce Remedy, which literally has this in the title: The Proven 7-Step Program for Saving Your Marriage.
I have been through torture since he walked out and the uncertainty is killing me. I have decided I need to have The Talk with him, for my own sake, not his. If it makes him run further, so be it. I sense that he is conflicted about what to do but my mental health can't take the waiting around while he decides. I want to ask him if he will consider marriage coaching (not counseling) with me. If he says no, I have my answer and at that point, I will move on with my life.
Thank you again for all your advice.
I cannot stop sobbing. I have reached out to an online therapist service as there is none where I live. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare. He cried at our wedding just five years ago. Just months ago he was telling me he loved me. My heart is utterly, utterly broken and I feel so alone. Unfortunately where I live, I have very few friends as we are both expats living in a foreign country. I wish I could stop crying.
Reeling,
I'm so sorry. All of us here know exactly what you're going through. It's incredibly difficult. Hang in there. It WILL get better over time. Right now the hours feel like weeks and the days feel like months, but in a year or two you'll look back and wonder how the time went by so quickly. Trust me.
The best thing you can do is get out of the house and do something. Be active. Go on a walk, ride a bike, sign up for yoga, take a cooking or painting class, contact an expat social group...etc. It doesn't matter what it is, just try to get off the couch or out of the bed and do something. It's tough to beat the momentum, especially if you're depressed, but as you start doing things to fill your time you'll start to feel better and you'll build momentum in a positive direction.
You're all here to listen and help...and we're all cheering for you.
Thanks so much SteveLW for taking so much time to respond to my post. It's very kind of you and I really appreciate it. I think I've misunderstood what DB is all about. From what you're saying it appears to be something I'm supposed to do for myself and in doing so, there MAY be a side-effect that means my WAH comes back. My understanding was that DB was aimed at bringing him back - and saving my marriage. This is based on me having read The Divorce Remedy, which literally has this in the title: The Proven 7-Step Program for Saving Your Marriage.
I have been through torture since he walked out and the uncertainty is killing me. I have decided I need to have The Talk with him, for my own sake, not his. If it makes him run further, so be it. I sense that he is conflicted about what to do but my mental health can't take the waiting around while he decides. I want to ask him if he will consider marriage coaching (not counseling) with me. If he says no, I have my answer and at that point, I will move on with my life.
Thank you again for all your advice.
Reeling, yes that is the thing with DBing. IF you DB in order to save your marriage, your WAS will detect that and be resistant. If you go off and DB in order to move yourself forward, sometimes the WAS will get interested and come poking around to see why the LBS is not doing what they expected them to do.
Your WAS expects you to be sad, clingy, reach out, beg, become the perfect spouse, to be able to pretty much do whatever they want. We call it the fantasy bubble. They think they can have their cake and eat it to. So many LBSs have used their WAS while they are most vulnerable. This is especially true with WAHs but we've seen WAWs that have come around looking for sex. Then when they get what they want, whether it is sex, or items from the house, or money, they go right back to being obstinate again.
During my situations (I had two, 12 years apart), I read a ton of anti-divorce experts. And even though their books had catchy titles like "Save Your Marriage, NOW!" or "Divorce Remedy" etc, the crux of the advice was that IF your WAS decides D is what they want, there is nothing you can do to stop it. But if you are willing to put difficult actions into place, like NO R talks, ever! Or GAL and doing your best to forget what they are doing! Or to emotionally detach (some referred to it as self-differentiation), then the WAS might start questioning what they are doing.
Here it is the basic form. It is the epitome of something called the distance-pursuit dynamic. (Google it!) If your WAH feels like all he has to do is snap his fingers to get you back, then the likelihood of him coming back is very small. If he feels like he is in danger of losing you, there is a better chance he will go "What am I thinking???" And start questioning what he is doing. It is like playing with a dog. If you chase a dog, it will run from you. But the minute you stop chasing, the dog will stop running away. And if you go back the other way, the dog will start chasing you! WASs are the same way.
So yes, this is where DBing becomes counter-intuitive. Your best chance and saving your marriage is to STOP trying to save it. This is why so many LBSs (myself included!) struggle with the concept of DBing. Because every instinct tells you to love-bomb them. To be in contact with them as much as possible. To give them gifts, to remind them you love them, to insist to them that you do not want a D! But those are the behaviors that drive them away.
Here is my advice. Find a neighbor that an open to the jar for you. Go dark. When your WAH eventually contacts you (and I believe that he will IF you can go long enough without reaching out to him), to see when you want him to come open the jar, you can say "Oh, I had Tom open it. The pickles were delicious." And leave it at that! It will start work on his mind like a brain worm. "Who is Tom? Why is he opening pickles for her? Why didn't she keep texting me to come open them? Is she moving on?!?!" THAT is the dynamic you are going for here.
The beauty of DBing is that we struggle with it.....until we don't! I can remember when I first started seeing my W question what she was doing. It was after she had asked me if she could buy books on interviewing. (Her plan was to get a job, get an apartment, and to get a D.) I told her to buy whatever she felt she needed. She then spent an evening and most of the next day updating her resume. I left her completely alone and just went on with things I needed to do. That evening she came into the living room tearfully expressing that she felt what she was doing was wrong. I remained completely unemotional, and listened and validated. When she went back into the home office, I went into the master bedroom and broke down! My embracing her plan to leave me was actually causing her to question the plan! COUNTER-INTUITIVE!!
One last bit of advice. Divorce Remedy is a difficult read to absorb all in one reading. The most successful DBers read the book 2,3 even 4 times! That is what I would suggest you do, reread it through the lens of what I just described to you. I would especially concentrate on the Last Resort Technique. I think that is the perfect technique for your situation.
I cannot stop sobbing. I have reached out to an online therapist service as there is none where I live. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare. He cried at our wedding just five years ago. Just months ago he was telling me he loved me. My heart is utterly, utterly broken and I feel so alone. Unfortunately where I live, I have very few friends as we are both expats living in a foreign country. I wish I could stop crying.
Reeling, the best advice I have seen for the emotions is to let them come. Feel them. Go through them. Mourning is not something that we should try to shortcut. You are going through a trauma of loss, it is expected that you will be sad. Please read the sticky thread on this forum "You Will Not Die".
I also commend you for reaching out to a therapist. IC is one of the best steps you can take right now!
And what I can tell you, is that it does get better. You will get through this. Like I said before, in an imperfect world we can lose someone a myriad of ways! Some of them more permanent than others. We have to find our strength to mourn, but then to move forward. You can do this!
Reeling....
First off.....DBing can seem deceptive, however there are no magic bullets through this. And the BEST way to try to save your marriage is to become a better version of yourself.
IF this is MLC, then your goal is to try and outlast the MLC, while working on yourself and trying to be the best version of Reeling that you can be ...consistently....
MLC or WAS doesn't really matter for right now, until you get a grasp on yourself and stop thinking emotionally, and start to find your center...
However...
IF THIS IS MLC.....???
There are gonna be things that make your head want to spin all the way around through this.
MLC....IF he is.....IS a test of EVERYTHING that you have inside you .....
What he is going through is not pretty, and never think that it is on purpose either....There are things in his head that you cannot begin to imagine.
A couple hits though.....
MLC'ers lie......period
MLC'ers project their feelings onto the person closest to them...
MLC'ers...cheat on their spouses....not all, but the majority of the time.
To get through this, you will need to understand that YOU are the only person that you can do anything about....
Don't spend this time that HE needs, pining away waiting for him..
Do for you ....Always
Take care of YOU..... You need to make yourself Number one.......
Realize that you can do everything "right" and there is no guarantee that you will come out the other side with a restored marriage with him....
What WILL happen is that you will realize that YOU will come out the other side of this a better person.
Take the time to understand what you are dealing with , and then do the work for yourself.....Strive to be better everyday....
Don't snoop....the only person you will hurt is you.....
Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung
Don't put a timeline on this....there is none except his....
Don't think there is something YOU can do to change this path for him...
You're never gonna talk your way out of something you acted your way into...
Time...Patience...Understanding....and being real...
Those are your friends right now....Your best friends...
Give plenty of space
Do for you
Understand your role right now to get through this....
One day at a time....One hour at a time....and in the beginning?
One minute at a time...
Don't talk to family and friends about this either, you will only hurt you.....
Come here to vent and understand, there is NOTHING you can say that will shock any of us....
I have always said that I wouldn't wish this onto my worst enemy....at first I meant because of the hurt....Now ?
Because I wouldn't want him to be as good of a man than I ....
What is gained through this , is far more than what is lost.
Think of this as a positive thing, as long as YOU DO THE WORK....
There isn't as much activity here as in the past, so spend that time in the Archives, and read and understand as much as you can to help you through the dark times.
MLCers seem to follow a script of sorts.
I love you but not in love with you.
Rewriting of history.
You were controlling.
Spending
New friends
The list goes on and on. Read the DR section on MLC, it is actually on a link on here and then read the resource thread here. Educate yourself about what you might be dealing with.
Then, later down the road, read it again. You will know. And one thing to please keep in mind, the stages as they are broken down, do NOT follow the neat way they are typed out. They bounce back and forth, up and down, and just all over the place.
Only you can determine if it is really MLC.
Reeling, know my post comes from a place of kindness. I hope you’re going okay today.
This is not my only reason for saying this. We have had very honest conversations (please believe me on this) and he has told me more than once that there is nobody else, there was nobody else and he will tell me if there ever is anybody else, before I find out from someone else.
My wife said those things. We went to church together with our kids. We had marriage counselling with the pastor where she said all of those things your partner is saying. All her friends and family told me there was no-one else. The only problem with all of that … is she was banging one of the Dad’s in my son’s football team, and singing hymns on the weekend.
No-one’s spouse is ever having an emotional or physical affair - until suddenly they are. You need to drop this rope of naive trust and accept it as a possibility. We aren’t saying it to hurt you - why would we do that? You seem very vulnerable at times, so we are hoping to prepare you for one possible outcome.
I agree with Steve 100%. There’s some concerning levels of acute grief in your posts. Completely understandable? Absolutely! It’s the worst feeling in the world to be on the receiving end of a relationship hand grenade. But you need to seek personal counselling as a matter of priority. Your doctor might be able to set something up? Or maybe your workplace has an employee assistance program with access to counselling? Please prioritise this.
The best thing you can do for your mental health during times of acute grief is to exercise extremely heavily. I’ve written other posts about this, so use the search function. You should be doing 2+ hours of high intensity exercise and weights programs. You should be collapsing into your bed at night.
Your NY trip didn’t work, because it was an attempted manipulation. Part of you did it to get a reaction, light a fire under his arse and now you’re disappointed it hasn’t worked. Don’t EVER do anything to try and manipulate your partner into getting back with you. It will fail every, single time. You get a life and go to New York to detach, discover yourself, occupy your brain, and to start getting used to finding your own happiness from within - not to make someone miss you.
You can do NOTHING to win him back. The harder you try, the less successful you will be. He needs to realise what he has lost for himself, otherwise it’s only temporary. You, your family, his friends, his work colleagues - none of them can make a difference. Either he works it out, or he doesn’t.
These situations can last 2, 3, 5 or 10 years. Are you going to waste 10 years of your life hoping he wakes up?
Given you can’t change him or the situation, you’d be better off spending that 10 years kicking life’s butt and being the greatest Reeling you can possibly be. If he comes back… great! If he doesn’t, you haven’t wasted 10 years of your life and you’ve learnt to find your happiness from within.
Going dark isn’t to elicit a response. It’s not a nerve test to see who cracks first. Going dark is actually a self preservation technique for the LBS.
I’ll say it again just to make it clear - NOTHING you can do, say, not do, not say, show him, or not show him is going to get him back. You’re a passenger on this wild ride, not the conductor. Time to drop the rope and concentrate only what you CAN control (which is you and your life BTW)!
Best of luck, keep posting here.
It will get better
Oh one last thing. There are no shortcuts here. Trying to shortcut all of this will just cause you more pain. I see you think having the talk to get it over with will help. It won't. There is not a "THE talk". You will have a talk. Then days and weeks will pass and you will convince yourself that the right approach is ANOTHER talk.
The problem? Reread what Mach1 said. HE WILL LIE. Nothing he says can be believed or trusted. So what will talking do? Nothing, because you cannot put stock into any of it. Frustrating? YES!
In my situation my W would say whatever was convenient at the time. If her goal was to get out of the discussion, then she would say things she would hope would end it. If her goal was to make me feel better, then she would say things to try and make me feel better. If her goal was to try to convince me that D was the best option, then she would say things to try to convince me of that. None of it was real. None of it could be believed. None of it meant anything real or tangible.
As Mach said, talking your way out of a D, or out of his MLC is not an option. Talking will not work.
When you do things to try to shortcut your own pain it will fail every time. You will feel worse after taking any action meant to try to minimize the pain. You will feel worse afterward. The DBing advice is difficult, but it is the single best path there is. Trust me on this, I looked for them all.
And pay particular heed to Mach's point about there being no magic bullet. If there were something you could say or do to fix this, then this forum would not exist. Someone would have written a book centuries ago that said "Do this, and say this, to fix your marriage!" And there would never be another D again. The fact is that there is no such thing. So do things that minimize the damage, that focus on you, that let go of trying to control the situation. In other words, use the DB techniques espouse here and in the book.
And as Mach said, keep posting!
((Virtual Hugs)) I'm the optimist here. My situation improved within 8 months! As in, we reconciled for a year before calling it quits. I made solid 180s and so did she, but I see where I (and she) could've done more. I feel better about calling it given that extra chance. Self-improvement is a life-long journey! As I continue, I hope to allow even more light and love into my life.
I have reached out to an online therapist service as there is none where I live.
That's great! There are many sites to see therapists virtually such as Talkspace, Betterhealth, and Calmerry. The last time it took me 3-4 switches to get an active therapist who seemed to care. I get it--they're charging 25-50% of their normal rates. My best online therapists matched my best offline therapists. I recommend 1:1 sessions if you seek more than validation.
I feel like I'm living in a nightmare. He cried at our wedding just five years ago. Just months ago he was telling me he loved me. My heart is utterly, utterly broken and I feel so alone. Unfortunately where I live, I have very few friends as we are both expats living in a foreign country. I wish I could stop crying.
Wow--I get feeling alone in that situation! I lived in a foreign country once. Do you speak the language? Are there people there into your culture? Is there an ex pat community? Is there a place nearby you can sit quietly and feel refreshed? It may be worth reaching out to friends and family back home. Having 1-2 people to lean on can make a world of difference.
I cannot stop sobbing. I have reached out to an online therapist service as there is none where I live. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare. He cried at our wedding just five years ago. Just months ago he was telling me he loved me. My heart is utterly, utterly broken and I feel so alone. Unfortunately where I live, I have very few friends as we are both expats living in a foreign country. I wish I could stop crying.
Reeling, the best advice I have seen for the emotions is to let them come. Feel them. Go through them. Mourning is not something that we should try to shortcut. You are going through a trauma of loss, it is expected that you will be sad. Please read the sticky thread on this forum "You Will Not Die".
We all have repressed emotions that need to come out. We are emotional beings. Find a safe time and place to let the tears flow. Some do it in the shower. Some in their car in parked someplace safe. Anger is in there as well. They have places called "rage rooms"...My step daughter and I are planning on going. Again, find a safe time and place to express some anger. Might feel scary at first, but it is good to let it out intentionally instead of coming out at the wrong time.
Long story short cry and cry and cry until you cant cry anymore. I always feel better after a good cry.
HUGS
How are you doing, Reeling? It's been a couple months. Hope you're hanging in there.
Hi everyone, I’m back. I left for a while – I was too in despair, too grief-struck, to really use this forum in a helpful, productive way. In hindsight, I now know that I was/am traumatised. I’m sure some or most of you know that being betrayed can trigger symptoms very similar to PTSD. For yes, yes indeed folks, there was an emotional affair. For those of you who’ve read my story, you will see how much I denied the existence of someone else when I first came on here. I am here to say I was wrong and those of you who suggested it were right.
This may be a little bit long; please forgive me for that. I’m so appreciative of you kind people and want to get my updated story out there and let you know where I’m at now because I am FINALLY ready to embrace the LRT and doing a 180 the way it’s meant to be done – for me. So, here we go:
JULY 2022: I joined (and then left) this forum in July, at a time when my WAH (BD April 2022) were occasionally, but rarely, seeing each other, meeting up for lunch dates etc. These were always initiated by me, as was most of our contact. However, gradually, our meetings started to become more frequent. Then lunch meet-ups became dinner meet-ups, which became dinner then drinks, then became dinner, drinks AND let’s go to a nightclub meet-ups, and finally became all of the above PLUS him starting to stay over. Looking good, right?
AUGUST 2022: Things continue as above, friends start to comment that they’re seeing us together a lot, what’s going on, etc. Through all of this I engage in very little relationship talk. I occasionally ask if he wants to save our marriage. Each time, I get a “maybe”. Once I got a “sometimes yes, sometimes no.” I still take these as positive signs given that when he walked out on me in April, it was a 100% absolute NO, NEVER.
SEPTEMBER 2022: The meet ups continue; he continues to stay over – not very often, maybe once a month, twice max. What I need to mention here is there is never any sex. He sleeps in our marital bed but no sex. I do not expect there to be sex given that we were pretty much in a sexless marriage before he left – instigated by him and when he walked out, he gave me the I love you but I’m not in love with you crap and also told me he was no longer physically attracted to me. I’d felt rejected sexually by him for years but the pain never lessens.
Anyway, we then go away for a weekend! At his suggestion! A friend of ours is having a birthday party, on another island (we live on an island in Thailand) where we used to live (and where we met). He suggests we go. We have a great weekend away, lots of fun and laughing. No relationship talk. No sex either BUT there is a definite shift, in that he is very heavily flirting with me throughout the weekend. Lots of touching me, pretending to tickle me, etc. For a guy who has not done this stuff with me for years.
About a week or two later, he stays over at mine again. I can’t bear it anymore and so I ask him, “am I the only one who wants to save our marriage?” He hesitates, then sighs. I say, “please tell me. Just please be honest and let me go, if that’s what needs to happen.”
He sighs again and then says, “No. You are not the only one who wants to save our marriage.” I feel huge relief (I don’t even realise then that I’m already blocking out the hesitancy, the sighing, all those red flags). We go to bed. We have sex. This is huge BUT he has some performance issues and doesn’t climax (hope that’s not too much info, the only reason I mention it is that sex, or the lack of it, has obviously been a problem between us, plus the fact that he has said he’s no longer attracted to me, not in love with me etc.)
I will add here that I am 52 but – and this really is not meant to sound arrogant – I look GOOD for my age. People can’t believe my age when they hear it. I am 5’ 10” tall, slim, in good shape, nice eyes, long legs – to hell with it, I’m going to big myself up because I refuse to let him destroy my self-esteem. I just feel the need to convey that I am not some 200 pound wife who’s let herself go! His failure to be attracted to me (I pretty much look the same as I did when we met 8 years ago and he chased and pursued me then and kept telling me how sexy I was) is exactly that – his failure. All part of the MLC he’s in.
OCTOBER 1: It’s a Saturday night and he is again staying over. The following day, we are planning to meet a huge gang of friends for brunch. That evening, we go out for a few drinks and bump into a mutual friend (more his friend than mine). My WAH is at the other end of our large table, talking to other people, when this mutual friend turns to me and asks me what my plans are for my future. Insinuates my marriage is over, asks am I going to stay here in Thailand, on this island where I’m unlikely to meet anyone else (true) etc. I innocently think to myself, “ah, she doesn’t know how much better things are getting between WAH and me”. And so I tell her. I say we’ve been getting a lot closer, spending more time together, he’s been staying over, we went away for a weekend together etc.
She rolls her eyes and says “oh for god’s sake. I TOLD him he needs to be honest with you. He has told me he has no intention of getting back with you.”
I still remember the room reeling (like me!) as she said that. The bit of me that was instantly traumatised tried to rationalize it by telling myself she must be referring to something he’d probably said months before, just after BD. So, I asked her when he had said that. She replied “4 nights ago when I bumped into him and we went for a drink. I’ve told him countless times to be honest with you, he is leading you along.”
Long story short: he and I go home. I decide not to say anything to him at that point as we’ve been drinking, it wouldn’t be a productive conversation and we have brunch plans with friends the next day. I tell myself that the day after the brunch I will confront him. He goes to bed, immediately falls asleep. I am about to get into bed and try to sleep too when something stops me. I go back out to the living room, where he has left his laptop. I pick it up. I know nothing on his laptop, email, social media, etc is password protected – it just opens..
BACKSTORY
JULY 2021: He blindsides me for the first time by walking out on me, saying he’s not happy. The separation lasts 3 weeks, then we meet up, I’m already talking about moving country etc and he suddenly asks “ok, how can we fix this?” He moves back in and we carry on as if nothing had happened – biggest mistake ever in hindsight.
However, something bothers me about what made him walk out. I search his laptop for the first time when he pops out to the store one day shortly after our reconciliation. I find an email from an Australian woman who works in a company next door to his (they are both in the yachting business and based at a marina). Their company offices are next door to each other.
I know they are friends but I guess I didn’t know just how friendly they were. She is married with twins, only about 8 years old. We are acquaintances (we are part of an expat community and everyone knows everyone) and it’s an open secret that her marriage is desperately unhappy and has been for some time. My WAH and I have even talked in the past about what a dick her husband seems to be… Ha.
Anyway, at this stage in the proceedings, she is moving back to Australia with her husband and kids.
Back to my husband’s laptop: I find nothing incriminating at all APART from one email from this woman that simply says:
“I’m sorry for making a fool of myself xxx”
He has replied:
“You didn’t make a fool of yourself at all xxx”
And that’s it. I sit there staring at the exchange, wondering what the hell it is about. It was written in JUNE 2021, days before she is moving back to Australia. By the time I see it, it is July and she has left.
The day before she left, I bumped into her at our local beach while walking my dog. I haven’t seen the email yet and genuinely have zero suspicions and this encounter only came back to me about a week ago. I called her name to say hi. She turned around and I kid you not, she JUMPED when she saw it was me. She looked as though she’d seen a ghost. I asked her if she was okay and she composed herself pretty quickly, said hi and moved off. I wondered why she’d looked so scared of me but, unable to find a reason, I dismissed it and forgot about it.
After she has left, my husband walks out on me for the first time (the 3 week period referred to above). After his return is when I find the email from her. I wait a couple of days, then just ask my husband outright if anything has happened between them. He is cool as a cucumber, says no, they’re just friends. I totally believe him. I then rationalize it, telling myself that at the time she wrote it, she was preparing to leave this country after 15 years living here, it must have been emotional – she may have got upset about it, maybe even cried while at work and my husband probably comforted her, put his arm around her. That’s why she emailed after to apologise for making a fool of herself. That’s how I dealt with it. Then I put it out of my head – after all she was now gone, back in Australia.
Okay, so that was the backstory from July 2021.
In JULY of this year, while on one of our lunch “dates” he’s talking about his job, etc. then casually says “anyway, I won’t have to do that part of the job anymore as M (Australian woman) will be doing that.” I am instantly confused. I say I don’t understand, is she now working for his company from Australia? He says no, she is back here.
I am dumbstruck. After relocating back to her home country with husband and kids, a huge move, she is suddenly BACK? And not just back, she is now working with my husband. I feel the hairs stand up on the back of my neck and I ask him why he had never mentioned that she had returned.
The gaslighting begins. He points at me and says, slightly hysterically, “because of this! Because I knew you’d get like this!”
Believe it or not, I INSTANTLY believe him. I tell myself I’m being unreasonable, crazy, imagining things. The power of gaslighting.
OCTOBER 1: As I was saying, he’s asleep in bed and I’m digesting the news our friend has given me – that he told her he has no intention of getting back with me. I start to wonder if he was lying to me about wanting to fix our marriage, what else has he been lying about? Back I go to his laptop.
There, I find an email, dated September 5, so nearly a month old, from my husband to this Australian woman. The subject line is “Last one xxx”. In the email is a Word doc. I open it. It is 7 pages of his sexual fantasies involving her, him, and some other anonymous younger woman. It ends with “this is the last one I will write xxx” which is written in red font.
I won’t go into how I felt – I’m sure you can guess. I go into our bedroom where he is blissfully snoring away. I turn all the lights on, jump on top of him and start screaming at him. Total breakdown, hysterical, I have entered trauma. I kick him out, screaming “how long have you been f*cking her?” etc. He starts screaming back that he has never “f*cked her” etc. He leaves.
It is now 2.00am and I am awake pretty much the rest of the night, talking to friends and family (in my home country, which is hours behind here). I also forward the email to her husband and to my husband’s parents (yeah, I know, I shouldn’t have but I was in crazy mode). I copy the OW and my WAH.
Two days later, OW asks to meet me. We do. I ask her to be completely honest with me, woman to woman, and tell me what’s been going on. She agrees. When I ask, she tells me she has no recollection of writing the “sorry for making a fool of myself” email, has no idea what it was about. I sense she is lying. I ask her when it all started. She explains that they’ve been very good friends for many years. I say I know that (although I confess I would never have described them as very good friends, just “friends”. Guess I didn’t know.) She says after she left for Australia they continued to stay in touch and that gradually the communication “drifted into the inappropriate”.
I ask how he had ended up writing sexual fantasies for her and how many times he had done so. She says he sent about 3 stories like the one I saw (that was all I found in his email that night by the way, I suspect everything else was deleted but he’d neglected to delete this last one – his downfall). She told me, “to be honest, I think it was just some sort of release for him. I used to just delete them.”
She then put her head in hands and said “I have not behaved honorably either”, then told me that after she got back from Australia in July this year, that they had kissed. She told me it had only happened once (my husband subsequently told me – without knowing her answer – that it had happened “6, 7, 8 times”.) She told me she had returned from Australia as she was very unhappy in her job there and trying to find another one, when my WAH told her there was a job in his company.
I asked her why he had written “this is the last one I will write” on the story he sent her. Was it because she’d asked him to stop? She said no, it was because he’d decided he wanted to save his marriage. She told me that after he sent that email to her on Sept 5, he had stopped contacting her.
Eventually she sent him a message asking if she’d done something to upset her and he replied saying no. She said he told her he wanted to fix things with me. I told her I’d seen very little evidence of that from him and she said he frequently told her he was confused about what he wanted and changed his mind from day to day. She then insisted she herself was hoping he and I would be able to fix things. WTF…
SINCE THEN
In my immediate rage after the discovery, I decided my marriage was over, there was no hope etc. Since then, my WAH and I have met a few times and talked. He told me it was an emotional affair (plus kissing and sexting) – she was/is in a very bad marriage, my WAH was unhappy in his (plus he’s in MLC but obviously denies that). It was the perfect storm of two unhappy souls thrown together – she got the male attention she craved and wasn’t getting from her husband and my WAH got his ego massaged (he told me, “she listens to me without judgement” – unlike me obviously).
Of course now I suspect that her email from over a year ago, before she left for Australia (“sorry for making a fool of myself”) is most likely a reference to the fact that she made a move on him somehow, probably kissed him. It explains why, when she saw me at the beach days later, she looked like she’d seen a ghost. It also explains why he suddenly walked out on me shortly after she left for Australia. He’d suddenly been hit on by someone else – he didn’t have to stay in his unhappy marriage, there were other options out there!
He shows very, very little remorse – he mainly feels sorry for himself and the fact that most of his friends and family are now furious with him - and seems incapable of empathy or understanding my pain. He insists he did want to fix our marriage but it’s too late now, he’s totally screwed up so there’s no point. (Right, because that makes sense.)
He won’t answer any of my questions about the details (where did you kiss her, how many times, etc) I feel I need details to heal but am resigned to never getting them – or at least not getting them anytime soon. I asked him if I was in right in my theory that she kissed him before leaving for Australia. He got flustered and said no, then got more flustered and said “it was just a goodbye kiss”. He is clearly lying.
Over the course of a week or so, I moved from rage to realising I still want to save my marriage. Their little affair is over – when I met with OW, she told me her husband wants to move them all back to Australia as he was not happy returning here anyway. However, I have not heard any more about such a move since then. So, she still works with my WAH and while I do believe the affair is over, it was essentially very much an emotional connection and so, that deep friendship is still there. To me, that’s worse and far more painful than an affair that was just about sex. Apparently, he talked to her about our marriage; she told me he felt he couldn’t talk to me. The betrayal cuts so deeply – I would have never disrespected him by discussing our marriage with others.
Anyway! Once I moved from rage to “I want to save my marriage” I did ALL THE WRONG THINGS. And then I did some more of them. The begging, the pleading, the crying, the sending articles, the sending videos, sharing podcasts. (Side note: my WAH has just gone out and bought a big red shiny motorbike. Yeah, no MLC here, move along…)
Now something else has started in the last few days: sexting. I started it, I admit, but he responds. We’ve had very sexually-charged conversations about fantasies, etc. in which he is a very active participant – it is not just me driving these. The only reason I mention this is that for years, he has not seen me in a sexual light AT ALL. He even said to me in a message just yesterday that he feels he didn’t know me and my sexual desires at all. I responded that he didn’t and left it at that.
We have met up occasionally but he gets angry if I try to talk about the marriage. And so I am back here today because I have decided enough is enough. From today, it’s the LRT for me. I will no longer instigate contact – EVER. I will not suggest meeting up – EVER. If I never hear from him again, I have my answer.
It helps me to see a physical representation of my progress so I have made myself a calendar, stuck to the fridge, for every day from now until mid-April. That will be the one-year anniversary of BD. Now, I am not talking about no contact, I am talking about ME not initiating contact. If he does (and I suspect that won’t happen for a long time, if at all) I will reply – not too much, just enough. You guys know the drill.
With my calendar, every evening I will put a big red X across that date if I’ve managed to go the whole day without initialing contact. It will be so difficult at first but I am hoping it will get easier. By April, the idea is that, thanks to GAL and allowing myself time to heal, I will be in a much, much stronger position. And if there has been no improvement in our situation by then, if he has not been reaching out or giving any indication of feeling differently about our marriage, then I file for divorce.
That’s the plan. I am so sorry about the length of this. I’ll be amazed if anyone reads it. Thank you so much.
Wow. Just wow. What an absolute train wreck.
Reeling, you must feel so used. I’m so sorry you’ve been through all of this.
I think you need professional help. You have been on a huge rollercoaster. You said yourself that you would sob for days with uncontrollable grief. Now you’ve jumped on him in the middle of the night and screamed at him?
I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve it… he absolutely does. But it’s not appropriate behaviour. If he decides he wants to be with her, you could find he slaps a restraining order on you. You do NOT want to make things worse than they already are.
Everyone is capable of healing, and I can’t tell you how that will look - ie whether you end up together or not.
But I’m pretty sure you’re not going to have the skills to negotiate this emotionally on your own, especially if you go your own ways. I’d highly recommend you seek out some professional IC to work through a lot of this.
Oh, and you need to get an STD test and protect yourself. I wouldn’t believe a word either of them say about having only kissed.
You’ll be okay one day… it’s just going to take a while. Just breathe… and take it one day at a time.
Thank you Kind for taking the time to read such a long post and for replying. I neglected to mention I have found a wonderful therapist (online - very little available where I am. This therapist is in the US and online works just fine. If I could afford it, I would talk to her every day - she is wonderful and I come off every call feeling super charged with strength).
Yes, I jumped on him in the bed and started screaming. You must understand this was minutes after my entire world blew up. Up until that point, I had reached the stage where I was CONVINCED we were reconciling - I’d told everyone, including my 84 year old father. Then BANG. I felt like such a fool and SO betrayed.
I had NO IDEA there was anyone else until this point - suddenly, my entire world, everything I believed, including my future, was blown to pieces. So yes, I went ape-sh*t. That was weeks ago and I’ve forgiven myself for what was a reaction to severe trauma.
He does not want to be with her and is not with her, but they work together and yes, they’re very good friends.
For now, I am detaching from the entire situation. I cannot continue as was. The pursuer will become the distancer and I plan to give that all I’ve got.
I’ve just been for a run, for the first time in months. Starting the couch to 5k program - it felt good to run, listening to loud music, feeling suddenly FREE from the sh*tshow.
Not saying I won’t backslide and end up crying my eyes out every now and again - I’m sure I will. But I am determined to find my strength once more and get back to the strong, happy, confident person I was when he walked into my life.
No longer will I initiate contact with him and allow his response (or lack thereof) to dictate my mood and emotions for the entire day.
I am taking my power back. I know it won’t always be easy. But damn, right now it feels good.
Thank you again.
Reeling,
Regarding the affair / other woman...I put together a timeline of comments on your (relatively) short thread. I don't mean this to hurt you - you're certainly not alone in thinking there was no affair, as there are countless others - but rather to inform / demonstrate an example of / help other Newbies on what is unfortunately an extremely common occurrence here:
One thing I must say up front is there is no other woman. 100% on that.
Also, regarding your 100% certainty that there’s no-one else - I’ve been around this site and several others for three years now, and have heard that hundreds of times from Newcomers. But in 99% of those cases, there is someone else. They hide it very well. They lie, they cheat, they cover their tracks.
But in 99% of those cases, there is someone else.
It’s not that high—there was no AP in my situation and several others I could name at the time of BD—but at least 80% who insist there’s no AP end up discovering one. Challenge your assumption, especially if it’s based on words or you think he couldn’t find time, but don’t fall deep into paranoia if you’re certain that’s not the case or at least not why he left.
Traveler - the percentage is a little lower when women leave, but when men leave the odds of an OW are well over 95%. Yes, I thought my exH wasn’t cheating when I first came here too! (Silly me!!!)
As others have mentioned, brace yourself for the likelihood there is another party involved. Whether the percentage is 80 or 99, the point is in the vast majority of cases here it ends up coming to light at some point that the spouse leaving is/was having an affair...even when the LBS swears up and down it's not possible.
So, honestly, I know I sound naïve and may never convince some of you, but there truly, honestly is no other woman. I am fully aware there may be eventually. Right now, there is not. I have so many reasons for saying this and won't go into them all.
There are so many reasons I know there is no OW but I don’t want to make my entire response consist of me pointing out why there is no OW. There truly isn’t. This is not me being naiive; this is what his very good friends have also told me.
A few months later...
For yes, yes indeed folks, there was an emotional affair. For those of you who’ve read my story, you will see how much I denied the existence of someone else when I first came on here. I am here to say I was wrong and those of you who suggested it were right.
Reeling, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm glad that you have decided to not initiate contact with your H. It is a difficult thing to do, but I do think it gives the LBS a sense of control in a crazy situation.
She said he told her he wanted to fix things with me. I told her I’d seen very little evidence of that from him and she said he frequently told her he was confused about what he wanted and changed his mind from day to day. She then insisted she herself was hoping he and I would be able to fix things. WTF…
This must have been very hard to hear. It seems that it does show just how lost the WAS is, though. In this case, it's not just your foggy-brained WAH—the OW herself is a confused WAS confused who evidently sought out the affair as a bandaid for her own issues.
It's cold comfort, but from what the OW is saying, it seems that your H was thinking about you a lot during the affair...
He shows very, very little remorse – he mainly feels sorry for himself and the fact that most of his friends and family are now furious with him - and seems incapable of empathy or understanding my pain. He insists he did want to fix our marriage but it’s too late now, he’s totally screwed up so there’s no point. (Right, because that makes sense.)
This self-absorbed, defeatist behavior seems very common among WAS in the reconciliation process, from what I've read on these boards. It's seems very painful for the WAS to face the destruction they've caused. They're weak and scared of rejection. But they might be able to draw strength from their LBS.
He won’t answer any of my questions about the details (where did you kiss her, how many times, etc) I feel I need details to heal but am resigned to never getting them – or at least not getting them anytime soon. I asked him if I was in right in my theory that she kissed him before leaving for Australia. He got flustered and said no, then got more flustered and said “it was just a goodbye kiss”. He is clearly lying.
Why do you think you need to know the details to heal? Do you really want those images in your head? The questions seem motivated by your (very justified!) anger. Meanwhile, your H is not ready to be honest. At some point, it probably would be necessary to talk about the A for your (and his) healing, but I imagine it's a series of conversations better conducted in a calmer state—and with professional guidance.
I am talking about ME not initiating contact. If he does (and I suspect that won’t happen for a long time, if at all) I will reply – not too much, just enough. You guys know the drill.
After reading your post, I do not see any reason you should ever reply. There are soo many red flags in your post.
As someone else suggested, get into IC.
You deserve better. Much better.
HUGS
Reeling,
Here's the high level...
What is the history of you and your husband's prior relationships? Have either or both of you been married before? If so, why did those marriages end?
Just my opinion, but you should really step back and ponder what you want going forward. You're 5 years into your marriage and your H has been having an affair for at least a year and a half of that, if not longer, and you "felt rejected sexually by him for years".
Without kids involved it's much easier to detach, give space, and go out an GAL and live your life to the fullest. Make sure you're getting out and exercising, especially when you're feeling down - that makes a big difference. And remember what you said at the start of your recent post:
I’m so appreciative of you kind people and want to get my updated story out there and let you know where I’m at now because I am FINALLY ready to embrace the LRT and doing a 180 the way it’s meant to be done – for me.
Now some detailed feedback on your post...
She is married with twins, only about 8 years old.
If she's married with kids it's unlikely it'll last...plus the back and forth between countries. But it doesn't mean H will come back or start being a better H.
The day before she left, I bumped into her at our local beach while walking my dog. I haven’t seen the email yet and genuinely have zero suspicions and this encounter only came back to me about a week ago. I called her name to say hi. She turned around and I kid you not, she JUMPED when she saw it was me. She looked as though she’d seen a ghost. I asked her if she was okay and she composed herself pretty quickly, said hi and moved off. I wondered why she’d looked so scared of me but, unable to find a reason, I dismissed it and forgot about it.
It's always easier to piece things together in retrospect.
After his return is when I find the email from her. I wait a couple of days, then just ask my husband outright if anything has happened between them. He is cool as a cucumber, says no, they’re just friends. I totally believe him.
Cheaters will look you dead in the eyes and stone cold lie to you. My ExW did several times, as did countless others' here on the boards. It's easy to believe them because you can't fathom their level of deceit and contempt.
I am dumbstruck. After relocating back to her home country with husband and kids, a huge move, she is suddenly BACK? And not just back, she is now working with my husband. I feel the hairs stand up on the back of my neck and I ask him why he had never mentioned that she had returned.
Rarely are peoples' spidey senses wrong - always trust your gut in these situations.
I won’t go into how I felt – I’m sure you can guess. I go into our bedroom where he is blissfully snoring away. I turn all the lights on, jump on top of him and start screaming at him. Total breakdown, hysterical, I have entered trauma. I kick him out, screaming “how long have you been f*cking her?” etc.
I understand the emotions here, trust me, and part of my wishes I confronted my ExW like this but it's not the right way. From here on out get control of your emotions.
He starts screaming back that he has never “f*cked her” etc. He leaves.
You simply can't trust him on that btw. Maybe it's true, more likely it's a lie - but you can't trust it. They will lie, and lie, and lie, and then when caught only admit to what they were caught with and lie some more.
I also forward the email to her husband and to my husband’s parents (yeah, I know, I shouldn’t have but I was in crazy mode). I copy the OW and my WAH.
Some would argue that getting the affair out in the open - not to the world, but to the key players like OW's H might help end the affair and lead to an R. Seems like the board is mixed here and it's been awhile since it's discussed. But either way emotionally-drive 2am exposure isn't ideal. If you were going to do it it'd be better to plan it out logically.
Two days later, OW asks to meet me. We do. I ask her to be completely honest with me, woman to woman, and tell me what’s been going on. She agrees.
So hopefully you know this but you can absolutely not believe anything she says. OW has every reason to lie right to your face and make it sound more innocent than it is. Remember she has her H and two children at home. It's very possible, probably likely, that her and your H have colluded on a story to keep the peace with you, her H, families and friends. My then-W talked for HOURS to OM1 (I have phone records) the day after I relieved to her I knew his name. They were talking about what they'd say to work, to his W...etc, etc. They absolutely worked together to create a false narrative.
She then put her head in hands and said “I have not behaved honorably either”, then told me that after she got back from Australia in July this year, that they had kissed.
They almost certainly did more than kiss. They're not in middle school. Remember for whatever they admit to you can be certain it's almost certainly worse.
She told me it had only happened once (my husband subsequently told me – without knowing her answer – that it had happened “6, 7, 8 times”.)
See how their concocted narratives don't even match up? Classic interrogation technique. Separate the suspects and compare stories.
Since then, my WAH and I have met a few times and talked.
If you'd read any thread here you'll know we advocating talking less.
Over the course of a week or so, I moved from rage to realising I still want to save my marriage.
Your emotions are fluctuating. Give everything time to smooth them out. Don't react.
So, she still works with my WAH and while I do believe the affair is over, it was essentially very much an emotional connection and so, that deep friendship is still there.
Well if they're still working together it's going to be a massive challenge and temptation. If she moves to Australia with her H and kids it'll better, but remember there's always email, FB, WhatsApp...etc.
Now something else has started in the last few days: sexting. I started it, I admit, but he responds.
Like the lunches over the Summer, you should be limiting your initiation and letting him pursue. And if he doesn't, you don't.
We have met up occasionally but he gets angry if I try to talk about the marriage.
First rule of DB'ing...no R talks!
From today, it’s the LRT for me. I will no longer instigate contact – EVER. I will not suggest meeting up – EVER. If I never hear from him again, I have my answer.
That's the right approach, but can you do that? Remember over the Summer you'd go no contact / LRT for 12 days and then relapse.
I am so sorry about the length of this. I’ll be amazed if anyone reads it. Thank you so much.
Don't apologize. That's what the board is here for.
I neglected to mention I have found a wonderful therapist.
Excellent! Keep up with it.
For now, I am detaching from the entire situation.
Good.
The pursuer will become the distancer and I plan to give that all I’ve got.
You can't try this for 12 days and give up. Be strong.
[quote=Reeling]I’ve just been for a run, for the first time in months. Starting the couch to 5k program - it felt good to run, listening to loud music, feeling suddenly FREE from the sh*tshow.
Yes! Exercise! This is one of the top ways to get better.