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Posted By: PeterB Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 07/18/22 07:39 PM
Starting new thread. Latest discussion is in the context of interview style questioning.

Link to end of previous thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2933050&page=11

Link to first thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2932440#Post2932440
It's been a few weeks. I hope everyone is doing well.

Update: WW is travelling soon. I don't know for sure if a meeting with OM will happen in the place she is going, although I suspect it will happen. I do know that she wants to meet him, as my instincts about her are strong and even a slight demeanor change usually gets accurately interpreted in my mind. And which OM will turn down a chance to fu*k a hot woman?

Last two weeks she has been quite nasty and crazy. It's as if she was deliberately withdrawing from me - which is, her preparing her mind for travel and quite possibly a rendezvous with the OM. One night, I was chilling in my room when she came inside and launched at me viciously. She continuously accused me of crazy things including how I am giving her anxiety. I know that I have only been nice and calm with her all these months, never raised my voice, and minded my own business so the things causing her anxiety are probably her own issues, related to the divorce and her continued bitterness. She tried very forcefully to get me to talk about how things will be after divorce - even going to the extent of telling me that she will come back to me only if I immediately "show maturity" about D planning and post-D life. She even told me that she knows this influencer who is divorced but takes vacations with her ex-husband and kids, has monthly weekend outings, dinners etc. I did not budge and enforced my boundaries - no post-D talk, no direct insults. Eventually she gave up.

Just a reminder that we are in a farcical IHS, living like a married couple or married parents. I am sure she thinks that even if LTR with OM doesn't work out, she can fall back to me. I am not a psychologist, but OM knows she is a cheater with a special needs child.

In the last month or so I have realized that I have become rather good at avoiding any confrontations and not getting affected by her nastiness. This mindset has been developing for 4 months and I feel it has matured to a degree that makes me feel happy and strong. I am doing plenty of GAL, discovering new strengths, talents. I have finished booking a super GAL - a solo international trip. I'm really excited about it. Professional life is going great, and I have stepped it up.

At this time, the only reason I still want to stay in this marriage is my son. The only time I feel pain, is when I look at his face and think what he will go through. And that is a great pain. Is there anything I should tell her before she travels, since I strongly suspect that she will cheat? Should I make any power moves? How will I find out what she did there? I have been so crazy busy that I've had no time to think about all this. I am thinking as I am writing this.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 08/12/22 10:05 AM
Peter there is a saying here I strongly believe, cheaters cheat because that’s what they do. She’s not going there to bake apple tarts. She demonizes you because it’s easier to cheat on a monster than a good person. You have to decide what if another PA is a deal breaker. If you are in it for your son just ride it out and eventually she will either recommit or D you.
Originally Posted by PeterB
It's been a few weeks. I hope everyone is doing well.

Welcome back! Please keep us updated as much as possible. Believe it or not the posters here really do care about the LBSs that post here.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Update: WW is travelling soon. I don't know for sure if a meeting with OM will happen in the place she is going, although I suspect it will happen. I do know that she wants to meet him, as my instincts about her are strong and even a slight demeanor change usually gets accurately interpreted in my mind. And which OM will turn down a chance to fu*k a hot woman?

I always advise people in situations like this to just assume she is going to be in a full PA with OM. Since she is going to where he is, and without her husband and child, what other reason could there be? Any reason she gives otherwise falls into the "Believe nothing she says" category. So assuming she is going to engage in a PA. And knowing you said this was a boundary, what will your action be?

Originally Posted by PeterB
Last two weeks she has been quite nasty and crazy. It's as if she was deliberately withdrawing from me - which is, her preparing her mind for travel and quite possibly a rendezvous with the OM. One night, I was chilling in my room when she came inside and launched at me viciously. She continuously accused me of crazy things including how I am giving her anxiety. I know that I have only been nice and calm with her all these months, never raised my voice, and minded my own business so the things causing her anxiety are probably her own issues, related to the divorce and her continued bitterness. She tried very forcefully to get me to talk about how things will be after divorce - even going to the extent of telling me that she will come back to me only if I immediately "show maturity" about D planning and post-D life. She even told me that she knows this influencer who is divorced but takes vacations with her ex-husband and kids, has monthly weekend outings, dinners etc. I did not budge and enforced my boundaries - no post-D talk, no direct insults. Eventually she gave up.

No quite possibly about it. This is in total preparation for meeting with OM. "My husband is driving me nuts! He is so awful. He is being such a child about all of this. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!" Almost all conversation in an A that isn't sexual in nature, is how terrible their current MR/R is. They commiserate about their situations, convince each other that their LBSs are complete losers and terrible human-beings, and then use that as an excuse in engaging in the lowest form of deceit and betrayal: adultery!

Good job on staying calm and not giving into her madness. I took a slightly different tact and made it clear to my WW that there would be no friendship, no buddy-buddy garbage, post-D. We would coparent, but that would be the extent of our "relationship" post-D. I do not think the tact you are taking is wrong. But at some point you might want to consider saying "There will be no R above our coparenting post-D". This helps in breaking their "everything is rainbows and unicorns" post-D illusions.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Just a reminder that we are in a farcical IHS, living like a married couple or married parents. I am sure she thinks that even if LTR with OM doesn't work out, she can fall back to me. I am not a psychologist, but OM knows she is a cheater with a special needs child.

This was the same in my situation. Keeping up appearances. I wouldn't necessarily assume you are plan B. Most of the time the LBH is like plan Z, with 24 other plans between OM and the LBH. When my WW's EAP ended the EA, she immediately went on the prowl for her next EA. But yes, in general, she feels like if all else fails, she has ol' loyal PeterB. Even though she will have just broken one of your biggest boundaries: a PA.

Originally Posted by PeterB
In the last month or so I have realized that I have become rather good at avoiding any confrontations and not getting affected by her nastiness. This mindset has been developing for 4 months and I feel it has matured to a degree that makes me feel happy and strong. I am doing plenty of GAL, discovering new strengths, talents. I have finished booking a super GAL - a solo international trip. I'm really excited about it. Professional life is going great, and I have stepped it up.

I found the same sweet spot eventually in my situation. Remaining calm. Remaining confident. Remaining above her crazy. The more you exhibit this the more she will realize that you KNOW you will be fine, no matter what! Remember the previous discussion above, she expects you to be sitting their pining away for her no matter what she does. Cheating with OM. With OM#2. With OM#3. Doesn't matter because ol' PeterB will be there waiting. Because he'd rather be with a cheating me than not me at all.

Great job on GAL. I found GAL to be my salvation. And I even managed to get a promotion in the middle of my situation! So keep up the good work there.

Originally Posted by PeterB
At this time, the only reason I still want to stay in this marriage is my son. The only time I feel pain, is when I look at his face and think what he will go through. And that is a great pain. Is there anything I should tell her before she travels, since I strongly suspect that she will cheat? Should I make any power moves? How will I find out what she did there? I have been so crazy busy that I've had no time to think about all this. I am thinking as I am writing this.

Remember, Peter, kids would rather be from a broken home than IN a broken home. The damage this is doing to your son is more than you will ever know. I do not say that to hurt you but to show you that sometimes the best thing to do for the kids is to end the toxic relationship. In my situation, my daughter was 14. We thought we had hid all of our strife from her, but we later found writings she did to her friends talking about "what was going on with my parents right now", and being unsure about the future (meaning whether her parents were going to stay together or not). Kids usually know more than we think they do. Even a child on the spectrum, we never know what they are picking up on. Some would argue a spectrum child may even pick up on more non-verbal clues than a non-spectrum child.

As far as your questions:

"Is there anything I should tell her before she travels, since I strongly suspect that she will cheat?" No, this is out of your control. Again, assume she is going to cheat. And plan your actions accordingly. You've already said that a PA was a deal-breaker. So what are you planning on doing post this trip?

"Should I make any power moves?" Maybe, but likely the only power move I am thinking you can make is/are different than the one(s) you are thinking. Imagine she gets back from her trip, sleeping with OM, and you have her served with D papers. Now THAT is a power move. "I refuse to remain with a cheater."

"How will I find out what she did there?" Remember my story about my friend whose W went to the hotel with the OM? She refused to admit anything happened. He made his decision based on the fact that he assumed what happened. Again, you will NEVER know for sure, but use common sense. A married mother travels to a place where the OM is without her husband and child. Don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to crack that case! People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

"I have been so crazy busy that I've had no time to think about all this. I am thinking as I am writing this."

Good, stay busy! GAL is your best friend. Emotional detachment is your best friend. Sticking to your boundaries is your best friend! Embrace your best friends!

Stay strong!
Originally Posted by LH19
Peter there is a saying here I strongly believe, cheaters cheat because that’s what they do. She’s not going there to bake apple tarts. She demonizes you because it’s easier to cheat on a monster than a good person.

Haha you are right. I sat down and thought clearly last night. I have been working a lot, but I made time last night to write the message above and think. She made up her mind to cheat again sometime last month. She is going to use her body to not just try to lock in OM but also to take revenge on me. I am certain of that now. I also figured out that some strange behavior I observed a few days ago was probably some drama related to OM - the result of her speaking to him on the phone the day before (to hide the call, she told me she was going out to speak with her confidant - a friend of hers who I had helped a lot when she was in adversity but now wants her to divorce me - good life lesson this).

Originally Posted by LH19
You have to decide what if another PA is a deal breaker. If you are in it for your son just ride it out and eventually she will either recommit or D you.

I had already set a boundary - another PA would be an immediate D. As mentioned previously, at some point I started thinking if it should be a D immediately or I take some time. I am not sure anymore - need to think. At the same time, I know that apart from my concerns about the effect on my son, I am fine if she initiates D.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Welcome back! Please keep us updated as much as possible. Believe it or not the posters here really do care about the LBSs that post here.

Thanks SteveLW. I feel very supported on this forum. It has unique and highly effective value for any LBS.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I always advise people in situations like this to just assume she is going to be in a full PA with OM. Since she is going to where he is, and without her husband and child, what other reason could there be? Any reason she gives otherwise falls into the "Believe nothing she says" category. So assuming she is going to engage in a PA. And knowing you said this was a boundary, what will your action be?

She is going to a place where OM does not live. But that means nothing as it is a cheap flight out. I'm sure they will meet and have sex. My boundary was set previously, and I am thinking about its execution. Should I wait for her to D or should I D immediately or take some time to work on myself before D? The last option would mean taking on a demeanor she has not seen previously. Good thing about limbo is that it gives me time to work on myself and I am doing a lot of good to myself by GAL and self-improvement. It will also allow me time to evaluate my thoughts regarding my son's situation in all of this.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by PeterB
Last two weeks she has been quite nasty and crazy. It's as if she was deliberately withdrawing from me - which is, her preparing her mind for travel and quite possibly a rendezvous with the OM. One night, I was chilling in my room when she came inside and launched at me viciously. She continuously accused me of crazy things including how I am giving her anxiety. I know that I have only been nice and calm with her all these months, never raised my voice, and minded my own business so the things causing her anxiety are probably her own issues, related to the divorce and her continued bitterness. She tried very forcefully to get me to talk about how things will be after divorce - even going to the extent of telling me that she will come back to me only if I immediately "show maturity" about D planning and post-D life. She even told me that she knows this influencer who is divorced but takes vacations with her ex-husband and kids, has monthly weekend outings, dinners etc. I did not budge and enforced my boundaries - no post-D talk, no direct insults. Eventually she gave up.

No quite possibly about it. This is in total preparation for meeting with OM. "My husband is driving me nuts! He is so awful. He is being such a child about all of this. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!" Almost all conversation in an A that isn't sexual in nature, is how terrible their current MR/R is. They commiserate about their situations, convince each other that their LBSs are complete losers and terrible human-beings, and then use that as an excuse in engaging in the lowest form of deceit and betrayal: adultery!

Sage words. The OM is divorced btw. She has known him for a long time, and she is desperate to lock him in. You won't be surprised, but she does not take responsibility for her actions at all. She told me during BD how my frequent irritability and consequent fights took a toll on her. I fully know her own role in that irritability and fights, but subsequently I took full responsibility for my actions. That has had a cathartic effect on me. It has also taught me the value of taking ownership of one's actions and feelings. Now in most difficult situations across anything (including work, play, home), it comes as slow motion that I should react in a way that benefits me, and negativity does not benefit me.


Originally Posted by SteveLW
Good job on staying calm and not giving into her madness. I took a slightly different tact and made it clear to my WW that there would be no friendship, no buddy-buddy garbage, post-D. We would coparent, but that would be the extent of our "relationship" post-D. I do not think the tact you are taking is wrong. But at some point you might want to consider saying "There will be no R above our coparenting post-D". This helps in breaking their "everything is rainbows and unicorns" post-D illusions.

I like this idea. I will do that next time and close her out. So far, I have not because I just did not want to get into uncontrollable situations and had the desire to not give her opportunities to belittle me. But now that my next PA boundary is hit, I will tell her plainly.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by PeterB
Just a reminder that we are in a farcical IHS, living like a married couple or married parents. I am sure she thinks that even if LTR with OM doesn't work out, she can fall back to me. I am not a psychologist, but OM knows she is a cheater with a special needs child.

This was the same in my situation. Keeping up appearances. I wouldn't necessarily assume you are plan B. Most of the time the LBH is like plan Z, with 24 other plans between OM and the LBH. When my WW's EAP ended the EA, she immediately went on the prowl for her next EA. But yes, in general, she feels like if all else fails, she has ol' loyal PeterB. Even though she will have just broken one of your biggest boundaries: a PA.

I just don't know how to prevent her from thinking that I am plan B or Z. Should I even care?

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Great job on GAL. I found GAL to be my salvation. And I even managed to get a promotion in the middle of my situation! So keep up the good work there.

Ditto. A promotion coming up. One official commendation per month is my goal. I have come a long way from being a laid-back person professionally and overall.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
As far as your questions:
Originally Posted by PeterB
"Is there anything I should tell her before she travels, since I strongly suspect that she will cheat?"
No, this is out of your control. Again, assume she is going to cheat. And plan your actions accordingly. You've already said that a PA was a deal-breaker. So what are you planning on doing post this trip?

Answered above. I am thinking about it. No certain answer right now.
Originally Posted by PeterB
At this time, the only reason I still want to stay in this marriage is my son.
That is how I used to think. Challenge/question your belief system. There is the "ideal" family that married couples should be striving for, but your sitch is far from the ideal. There are some "ideal" divorced family models that you can strive for that will still have two involved parents showing him love.

Originally Posted by PeterB
How will I find out what she did there?
Sounds controlling.

Women are going to test their men. Are you passing the tests? Have you done your research in the manosphere? PUA,red pill,blue pill,black pill, etc?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by PeterB
At this time, the only reason I still want to stay in this marriage is my son.
That is how I used to think. Challenge/question your belief system. There is the "ideal" family that married couples should be striving for, but your sitch is far from the ideal. There are some "ideal" divorced family models that you can strive for that will still have two involved parents showing him love.

If D, then I'll maintain a cordial coparenting relationship. But there will not be any socializing or laughing or emotional/physical support or dinners or travel together.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by PeterB
How will I find out what she did there?
Sounds controlling.

Would have to disagree. If I don't know then how will I enforce my boundary that one more PA and I will move towards a D myself? LH19 & SteveLW suggested going by assumption. At least for me that is hard, but I am exploring it. In any case, imo a husband or wife should want to know if their spouses cheated, regardless of the state of the relationship. Not wanting to know or not trying to find out (if suspecting) would be a sign of lacking self-respect imho. She is well into travel btw. I couldn't care less about stopping her from doing whatever she wants to.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Women are going to test their men. Are you passing the tests? Have you done your research in the manosphere? PUA,red pill,blue pill,black pill, etc?

Can you clarify? What type of tests did you mean? I don't think either I or her passed any tests and that is why we are in this situation.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 08/17/22 10:35 AM
I agree with Peter. Ding his W because she cheated isn’t controlling it’s being a high value man.
Hi Peter,

This is your story. "I wanted my kids to live with both parents in a happy marriage, so badly, I did ______ to become a better partner and only gave up when she ______." Why are you standing? Have you given 180s your all? You could make a strong, self-respecting story either way. Your odds aren't good. May recovered after multiple PA encounters, but her XH was waffling after her 180s.

I'm with Steve that she'll almost certainly have sex on this trip. If this is a hard boundary--"Two strikes and you're out!"--another Vet, Ben, needed the evidence to walk away with a clean conscience. If that's you, consider hiring a Private Investigator to get the closure you want.
Quote
She demonizes you because it’s easier to cheat on a monster than a good person.

This, once again, is DB gold. Sums up the vast majority of divorces.

Humans are incredible creatures. Supposedly the smartest species - we send people to the moon, into space, and develop the most amazing technology and science.

And yet beneath it all, we are susceptible to the dumbest of behaviours. Our flaw is that we are so driven by our own ego, we will do just about anything to justify [censored] behaviour - including demonizing our spouse.

LH19 and Steve are incredibly smart and experienced people with this stuff. I’m glad they’re helping you on your journey.

Regarding a power move - absolutely you should present her with divorce papers on her return. But not to win her back, or prove your point, or punish her for going away… do it for YOU. Because you’re a good person, who deserves someone great in your life. Divorcing a wayward or walk away is about taking the first big step to rebuilding your self worth. Trust me - I’d know!

It was the single best thing I did during my situation. It was the start of the rest of my life, and I did it with my head held high - knowing I’d tried EVERYTHING to honour my partner and try to keep my kid’s family together. My kids are MUCH happier now. I should have done it sooner.

Your boundary of PA was for YOU! Do you love and respect yourself enough to honour it?
Originally Posted by LH19
I agree with Peter. Ding his W because she cheated isn’t controlling it’s being a high value man.
A high value man doesn't have to check up on his woman.

We all know why she is going and what she is going to do.

The question is what is Peter going to do?
Originally Posted by PeterB
Can you clarify? What type of tests did you mean? I don't think either I or her passed any tests and that is why we are in this situation.
$hit tests.

Google this :"passing a womans $hit test" or something similar.
Quote
she is a very pretty woman....She is also having an affair with someone over the phone. She demonstrates very suspicious behavior, and someone informed me that he recently saw her on two dates with a guy she has known for a very long time. She met this guy while traveling and she changed suddenly soon after meeting him. He reported that her behavior was consistent with a physical relationship, although I don't know to what extent.
This is all you need to know. If her behavior hasn't changed and she is not showing regret and remorse and acting like the wife you want, than YOU KNOW WHAT SHE IS UP TO. Act accordingly.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 08/20/22 07:37 AM
PeterB - How's it going? How are you handling these with your W's trip?
Hi BL42, apologies for the late reply. Nothing much is going on. She returned yesterday. I do not know what she did while traveling. She is already finding every excuse to pass cutting comments and make freakish claims (eg- Reality: She did X & I did Y; Her version: She did Y & I did Y. eg-Reality: Son did not do Z. Her version: Son did Z).

These ridiculous behaviors are not bothering me, they are mere capsules of insight.

I am trying to think of a life and mindset after D. I too am slowly drifting from my commitment to this M.
Update: I have a strong feeling that she got dumped by OM when she traveled. Some of her behavior soon after she came back is consistent with distress related to the rejection. She is also making some overtures with me and said she wants to talk. She has not stopped being nasty so I told her I can only talk if I feel she is ready to have a reasonable and respectful conversation. She went ballistic. I also don't trust her because I feel she is probably considering this only because she got dumped.

She probably wants to explore piecing but I don't trust her. She has not told me that directly. Would really appreciate any suggestions and advice. Any resources on DB about piecing, like preconditions, if I should even accept, what to look out for if I suspect she is considering piecing etc?
Peter, I've heard fantasies from some who didn't reach piecing that their ex would beg for it. That doesn't match my reality or most situations I've read, but when you're at that stage their desire is obvious and they're making it happen. You don't have to guess.

It sounds like she's currently in more of an uncertain stage where she's considering what she wants to do with her life but you expect that to change. May opted for Discernment Therapy at this point.

The good news, if you get to piecing, you don't need to build trust in a day. That's a common concern! It typically returns but can take months or years of consistent behavior.

You should consider what you require for piecing. No requirements are a common cause of failure here. When sneakiness is involved--I can't recall if your W told you it was over before sleeping with OM--a common requirement is access to her cell phone, e-mail accounts, etc... and not vice-versa. That would help you rebuild trust that the sneakyism is over.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/08/22 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
Update: I have a strong feeling that she got dumped by OM when she traveled. Some of her behavior soon after she came back is consistent with distress related to the rejection. She is also making some overtures with me and said she wants to talk. She has not stopped being nasty so I told her I can only talk if I feel she is ready to have a reasonable and respectful conversation. She went ballistic. I also don't trust her because I feel she is probably considering this only because she got dumped.

She probably wants to explore piecing but I don't trust her. She has not told me that directly. Would really appreciate any suggestions and advice. Any resources on DB about piecing, like preconditions, if I should even accept, what to look out for if I suspect she is considering piecing etc?
Peter I would suggest you double down on GAL right now.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/08/22 02:59 PM
PeterB,

I'd warn you that IF she did get dumped it doesn't necessarily mean she wants to reconcile. My ExW hand OM2 lined up very quickly after things ended with OM1...before she even moved out. So as hard as it is don't focus on OM or bank on a breakup between them the catalyst to R. Obviously better if they broke up than not, but guard your expectations.

Stay strong in your boundaries. Good job telling her you'll only talk if she's respectful. Don't stand for being treated poorly.

Also...you're speculating a lot. You have a "strong feeling that she got dumped by OM", "She probably wants to explore piecing". You don't know either of those for sure. Remember to focus on yourself. If she's still being nasty to you to me that doesn't sound like a sign she wants to R.
LH- what does “work to WIN you” exactly mean ?

Did you mean if she’s willing to work to repair the marriage ?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/08/22 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
LH- what does “work to WIN you” exactly mean ?

Did you mean if she’s willing to work to repair the marriage ?
Yep. She slept with another dude. She needs to take the lead to earn another chance with him.

My guess is that this is waaaayyyyyyyy down the road.
Originally Posted by Traveler
Peter, I've heard fantasies from some who didn't reach piecing that their ex would beg for it. That doesn't match my reality or most situations I've read, but when you're at that stage their desire is obvious and they're making it happen. You don't have to guess.

Yeah I don't expect her to beg. Actually I don't think she is reasonable enough atm to even calmly ask an exploratory question like, "How will you repair this R?". Last night she said she wants to talk and then she went off like a pressure cooker, repeating the same accusations like "you are fake", "you are dismissive", "you have not taken responsibility" and so on. My words and actions after BD have been quite contradictory to these but she says them anyway, no doubt to insult me. Overall the conversation style is truly bizarre, I have no way to properly describe it.

Quote
It sounds like she's currently in more of an uncertain stage where she's considering what she wants to do with her life but you expect that to change. May opted for Discernment Therapy at this point.

I am too busy with GAL to even consider discernment therapy. It will be a waste of my time given her current mental disposition. If she can keep her anger and nastiness down then I may consider. I am fine if serves the papers.

Quote
The good news, if you get to piecing, you don't need to build trust in a day. That's a common concern! It typically returns but can take months or years of consistent behavior.

Love this point. One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.

Quote
You should consider what you require for piecing. No requirements are a common cause of failure here. When sneakiness is involved--I can't recall if your W told you it was over before sleeping with OM--a common requirement is access to her cell phone, e-mail accounts, etc... and not vice-versa. That would help you rebuild trust that the sneakyism is over.
[/quote]

Hence this discussion. She never told me about the OM and has flatly lied yesterday - I told her that I have preconditions to any work towards R - "... this is not an exhaustive list but I need you to reduce your anger as nothing can be solved within anger, you need to be respectful, not throw insults at me and you cannot have another man as an option". She replied - "there was never any man and you are making me want to puke because you are dismissing all your responsibility and blaming everything on me".

Later she actually had the indecency to tell me "you are just an option for me" in front of my son. I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/09/22 12:40 AM
PeterB,

Sounds like she's spewing a lot of anger. Make sure you continue to stay calm, collected, and in control. Listen and validate; don't argue. Keep up the boundary enforcement / not accepting the disrespect.
Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB,

I'd warn you that IF she did get dumped it doesn't necessarily mean she wants to reconcile. My ExW hand OM2 lined up very quickly after things ended with OM1...before she even moved out. So as hard as it is don't focus on OM or bank on a breakup between them the catalyst to R. Obviously better if they broke up than not, but guard your expectations.

Yeah I am not assuming that. It's just that she said things that indirectly meant she wants to talk about a repair. For example, she told me in a huff that I really need to improve myself if I want to repair the relationship. When she said she wanted to talk I was pretty sure she would use it as an excuse to launch at me, snap at everything I say and blatantly twist my words, something like, I say "I meant horse", response: "So you meant window. That is why I don't trust you one bit". That is exactly what happened btw. I had initially said I don't want to talk because you are not ready. She got crazy angry at that. I gave an inch and said okay we can have a discussion. Then she used that discussion to run a road roller on me (went badly from first sentence itself). It does not matter what I say - the response is always nasty. It's like pushing me into a trap.

Originally Posted by BL42
Also...you're speculating a lot. You have a "strong feeling that she got dumped by OM",

It is speculation, but quite likely the truth.

Originally Posted by BL42
If she's still being nasty to you to me that doesn't sound like a sign she wants to R.

Yes I fully agree. And even if she wants to somewhere deep in her mind, the nastiness will definitely fail any efforts towards R.
Originally Posted by LH19
Peter I would suggest you double down on GAL right now.

Will do. I have a solo travel coming up and really pumped up for it.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

Originally Posted by LH19
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value

She does not. Far from it. She is probably only thinking how I can be of some use to her. At this time I am just an object of her angst. She slept poorly, she got angry, she screamed at me - I am blamed for everything and then it spirals into more vitriol.

Originally Posted by LH19
3) She's willing to work to win you

She is not willing to. I told her that if she is interested in R, she will also have to work on herself too. She went off the rails - "what have I done?", "it's all you", "you have treated me poorly", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems" etc.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/09/22 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
I told her that if she is interested in R, she will also have to work on herself too.
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your son, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She went off the rails - "what have I done?", "it's all you", "you have treated me poorly", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems" etc.
This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to play the long game.

Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Would really appreciate any suggestions and advice.
I will give my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Any resources on DB about piecing,
You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I have a strong feeling that she got dumped by OM when she traveled. Some of her behavior soon after she came back is consistent with distress related to the rejection.
How much more attractive (to women in general) are you than when you first arrived here? Are you skilled in new ways of interacting with women?

Originally Posted by PeterB
She is also making some overtures with me
Can you be specific?

Originally Posted by PeterB
and said she wants to talk. She has not stopped being nasty so I told her I can only talk if I feel she is ready to have a reasonable and respectful conversation. She went ballistic.
How good were you at listening and validating?

Originally Posted by PeterB
like preconditions, if I should even accept, what to look out for if I suspect she is considering piecing etc?
You listen to her. You do not reveal your cards. Have you read through my quote threads...I know this has been discussed before and there were lots of good insights.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I don't expect her to beg
It is all about HER feelings. She has to feel remorse and feel like she made a terrible mistake and that she has lost you. That is when the begging begins. Until then, you have not busted this divorce.


Originally Posted by PeterB
then she went off like a pressure cooker
Good. she is still emotionally invested in you.

Listening is good. If responses are needed then:
Originally Posted by PeterB
"you are fake"
"I am sorry you feel that way"
Originally Posted by PeterB
"you are dismissive"
"I understand you feel that way"
Originally Posted by PeterB
"you have not taken responsibility"
"I can see why you would think that"

Those are just simple examples that lets the other person know that they have been heard. You are not agreeing, but shows you are listening.

Originally Posted by PeterB
If she can keep her anger down
Be the rock and a safe place for her to vent her anger.
Originally Posted by PeterB
and nastiness down
Know the difference from disrespect and do not let treat you mad. Use your words and actions to set and enforce your personal boundaries. Her parents didn't teach her this. You can.

Quote
One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.
A place to truth dart "reverse babble" her "I understand the lack of trust". One of Coaches tactics that helped get his wife back. I believe this may be used sparingly. The goal is to reduce her resentment. not fuel it.


Quote
"you are just an option for me" in front of my son.
There are so many ways to respond to this. One of my mantras "The one who reacts emotionally first looses". I would flips this and use humor with a "Don't be so sure". Definitely with a twinkle in my eye.You are a man with options and you are vetting her.

Quote
I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.
Telling her how to behave is controlling behavior. Do more work in this area.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I told her.
Why are you telling her anything? You are talking way to much. STFU is the rule right now. You are listening and understanding her. That is it.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She went off the rails
Listen. Understand her emotions. You are strong and can handle her "scary" emotions.

Originally Posted by PeterB
"you have treated me poorly"
"I am sorry. That was not my intention."

If a response is required: "I understand you feel that way" works for these. Do not over use this phrase.
Originally Posted by PeterB
", "it's all you", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems"
Can you come up with a good response?
Ready2Change nailed it--solid ideas to be more attractive to your wife and other women.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.

Yes for sure. Just that she has told me things like "you need to figure out how to repair this relationship". I have taken this as coming out of confusion rather than an intention and then a decision to repair.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
How much more attractive (to women in general) are you than when you first arrived here? Are you skilled in new ways of interacting with women?

Pre-marriage I used to do quite well with girls. Of course after marriage I considered myself entirely taken. In the current situation I might be attractive because I am focusing on myself and feel confident. However, I don't know for sure because I don't have much opportunity to interact with new women. The women at work don't count and I have not been hitting on girls at the gym or while solo travelling.

Quote
Can you be specific?

One example is in my first comment in this response. Another example: "even if we stay in this marriage I won't be the same again".

Quote
How good were you at listening and validating?

I have been good imho. The 2nd last discussion did not go very well and I thought I talked too much. She had forced that discussion and clearly told me to speak more. My short validating sentences do have the intended effect imho but she wants more talk. One thing I told her (in response to a statement that after divorce so many "couples" take joint vacations) is that I won't be doing that - our interactions will be limited to necessary issues related to our son. Not talking about post-divorce situation was a boundary that I had strictly enforced until now (I consider it a waste of time) but taking a cue from SteveLW, I used this opportunity to poke her post-divorce bubble a bit.

Quote
You listen to her. You do not reveal your cards. Have you read through my quote threads...I know this has been discussed before and there were lots of good insights.

Your quote thread is invaluable. I used to use it even as random light reading. Any specific ones you recommend?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Be the rock and a safe place for her to vent her anger.

Very interesting. I did not see it this way and I wanted to stay clear of her negativity. Will have to use this perspective.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Quote
One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.
A place to truth dart "reverse babble" her "I understand the lack of trust". One of Coaches tactics that helped get his wife back. I believe this may be used sparingly. The goal is to reduce her resentment. not fuel it.

Can you explain what is a 'truth dart' and 'reverse babble'? The statement - "I understand the lack of trust" sounds like validation, which is something I am already doing.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Quote
"you are just an option for me" in front of my son.
There are so many ways to respond to this. One of my mantras "The one who reacts emotionally first looses". I would flips this and use humor with a "Don't be so sure". Definitely with a twinkle in my eye. You are a man with options and you are vetting her.

I had responded - "I am not going to be an option" (note, no humor). She ended up saying "you are so full of yourself" smile.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Quote
I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.
Telling her how to behave is controlling behavior. Do more work in this area.

Let me correct myself. The exact words I use are, "I am not going to discuss this topic in front of our son". I never told her to check her words.

Quote
Quote
"you are not owning up to your problems"
Can you come up with a good response?

I answered to this as - I have owned up to my own issues and my mistakes - I know I have made many. You asked me this many times and I have answered it similarly every time. So, I am probably not going to respond again (this last bit because I think she is deliberately trying to insult/annoy me by saying it repeatedly - a pattern she consistently demonstrated through the years).
Originally Posted by LH19
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your son, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

....
....
....

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.

This has to be one of the great posts on DB forum. It should be archived. Thanks for summarizing pretty much every aspect of DB.

Originally Posted by LH19
she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed...

She does not believe I have changed permanently.

Originally Posted by LH19
...and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

She has apparently realized I am doing it for myself rather than for her. She appears quite agitated about it ("... but you are making changes for yourself not for me").
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/11/22 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.
Yes for sure. Just that she has told me things like "you need to figure out how to repair this relationship". I have taken this as coming out of confusion rather than an intention and then a decision to repair.
Remember to believe nothing she says. Actions over words. She's likely confused or conflicted herself, or it might be a manipulation to keep you hooked. Keep working on yourself...attraction, interactions, physical appearance...etc.[/quote]

Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by LH19
she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed...
She does not believe I have changed permanently.
This is not something she's going to believe overnight. You have to dedicate yourself to making changes over the long haul. 10 years of the same behavior vs. a couple weeks or months of the new behavior...it takes time.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by LH19
...and that you're not doing it just to get her back.
She has apparently realized I am doing it for myself rather than for her. She appears quite agitated about it ("... but you are making changes for yourself not for me").
The best way to ensure your changes are permanent to to authentically want them for yourself. If you're doing it for others more likely it won't last. Don't worry about whether she says she thinks they're for you or her - you change for you and sustain those changes.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Can you explain what is a 'truth dart' and 'reverse babble'? The statement - "I understand the lack of trust" sounds like validation, which is something I am already doing.


Reverse babble uses their words in your response.
Truth darts are short responses that clarify your version of the truth.

I did a little digging trying to find coaches original posts, but they are now well over 10 years old and may have been purged. A few examples:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842981#Post2842981
Originally Posted by Coach
Reverse Babble Pattern (Coach)
"I can't trust you" respond "I understand the lack of trust."
"I was ready to come back until this happened" respond "I can see how me knowing what I know would change your plans."
Other wise responses:
"You made me do it" respond "No, I don't control your actions this is your mess."
"We are just friends" respond "Please don't take me for a fool, we both know better."
"You are running around" Respond "No wife, I am actually very focused and another woman is the last thing I want now."
When in doubt say nothing or "I am thinking about what you said."
Originally Posted by PeterB
Let me correct myself. The exact words I use are, "I am not going to discuss this topic in front of our son". I never told her to check her words.
Thanks for clarifying. This was a perfect response.
Quote
you are just an option for me

I don’t know why you persist with this woman.

You are openly admitting that because she got dumped, she’s testing the waters with you. You seem like a great guy Peter. Do you want to be her backup plan? Her sloppy seconds? Don’t you deserve an amazing, committed and trustworthy partner?

When my ex got dumped by her AP and started being nice, I’d already realised what a good person I was and that I deserved much more than what a cheating, lazy, angry woman could ever offer. I ignored her and kept living my own awesome life.

I think for you to consider reconciling at any point in the future, she’d have to fall to her knees and beg for forgiveness and own all of her poor behaviour. Until this happens, I think you should just ignore her completely and GAL like a boss. Don’t dip your toe in to test the waters, don’t entertain her angry outbursts, or have any discussions at all.

This is how the cycle works - she says she wants to talk, you talk and have an argument where she says it’s all your fault, she thinks “I’ve still got him on the hook”, and so she’ll head off and start looking for OM2. She has zero motivation at this point to get her sh*t together because you’re still there.

You need to break this cycle. The only way to do that is to stop interacting, stop discussing, stop showing interest, and build your own new life FOR YOU. Every time you have a discussion/talk/argument - she wins.

Accept that it’s done, start again and rebuild yourself new. If she wakes up and wants for be a part of it - maybe in a few years, when she proves herself worthy - maybe.

But if she doesn’t (which is most likely) you’re already well down the road to your new life and haven’t wasted years waiting for her to wake up.

I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Quote
you are just an option for me
I don’t know why you persist with this woman.

I don't know either. I think I have to take on a counselor.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Don’t you deserve an amazing, committed and trustworthy partner?

I certainly do. I am mentally preparing to live without her in my life but I don't know if I will find someone else. I will be really scared to commit after what I went through.

Originally Posted by Kind18
When my ex got dumped by her AP and started being nice, I’d already realised what a good person I was and that I deserved much more than what a cheating, lazy, angry woman could ever offer. I ignored her and kept living my own awesome life.

You did awesome. Right now she is an angry, off the rails woman and otoh I am feeling great about myself. I have not got into a fight or showed any anger/annoyance at her in the last 4 months so my efforts at personal improvement are fruitful. I sometimes feel that piecing with her (if it comes to that) would be a huge mistake.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Don’t dip your toe in to test the waters, don’t entertain her angry outbursts, or have any discussions at all.

I already told her that because of the way the previous discussion went I will be unable to discuss our R with her anymore. It did not go down well but I ignored.

Originally Posted by Kind18
I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.

Thanks for your kind words.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/16/22 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Kind18
you are just an option for me
I don’t know why you persist with this woman.[/quote]
Originally Posted by PeterB
I don't know either. I think I have to take on a counselor.
Peter wha you are doing is normal. You married your W for a reason. You started a family for a reason. It is normal not to want to lose what you had. I am guessing at one point your W was a good partner? My guess is you are hoping that someday she could be that partner again? This can happen again but unfortunately it takes way longer than people want and can handle. Right now your W is not happy and is 100% convinced that you are standing in the way of her happiness. She has to figure it out for herself whether that is true or not. The best way to help that along is to give her as much time and space as you possibly can. You can never give too much space in these situations.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I certainly do. I am mentally preparing to live without her in my life but I don't know if I will find someone else. I will be really scared to commit after what I went through.
This will change down the road. Lot's of really good faithful women out there. The key is to become great on your own first.
Originally Posted by PeterB
You did awesome. Right now she is an angry, off the rails woman and otoh I am feeling great about myself. I have not got into a fight or showed any anger/annoyance at her in the last 4 months so my efforts at personal improvement are fruitful. I sometimes feel that piecing with her (if it comes to that) would be a huge mistake.
Maybe and maybe not. It depends on her attitude and her motivation for piecing.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I already told her that because of the way the previous discussion went I will be unable to discuss our R with her anymore. It did not go down well but I ignored.
No more talking and more GAL. Peter I like you but I get the sense you can come off as controlling and condescending at times.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.
Agreed in unfortunately in these situations she is probably going to have to learn that the hard way.
My WW acknowledged that I have been thriving without her and she told me that she has even been telling her friends this. She commented on the positive changes I have made with regard to my health, taking care of our home, getting out and engaging with life, having friends. But she said, it’s too little too late and that she doesn’t buy it that the changes are real or lasting.

I replied,”I’m not asking or expecting you to buy it. This is who I am and who I need to be.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 09/20/22 06:08 PM
Rockon,

Originally Posted by Rockon
My WW acknowledged that I have been thriving without her and she told me that she has even been telling her friends this. She commented on the positive changes I have made with regard to my health, taking care of our home, getting out and engaging with life, having friends. But she said, it’s too little too late and that she doesn’t buy it that the changes are real or lasting.

I replied,”I’m not asking or expecting you to buy it. This is who I am and who I need to be.
Not sure this is the best response. Remember don't challenge/debate her. The best response would've be to validate (E.g., "I understand you feel that way.")

Remember...Actions, not words. It's very common for LBSs to make changes and for WAS/WS to observe them but say "it's too little too late". You can't logic her out of this feeling or convince her she's wrong through your words. All you can do is really truly change in the long term for yourself.
Hello everyone,

It has been 8 months since I last posted. A lot has happened since then, and I apologize for not posting. I got busy with DB, went on GAL solo vacations, and at some point, I decided to take a break from the forum with the intent of coming back at the next inflection point.

So here I am. I would say we are at what is known as "PIECING". I can't say I am able to read the current situation accurately, but back in February, she had a conversation one night and said we should work on our MR. Her meltdowns have reduced - I'd say once a week. She snaps at me on trivial matters like before, but the frequency has decreased noticeably. During meltdowns, she reminds me that we are together for our son's sake and then always ends by telling me, "You know I am really trying very hard, right?" or "I have come a long way towards you since last year".

I think R2C had talked about the need for a contract of the sort necessary for piecing or moving toward it, but that has not happened. Although, I have reminded her that she is in no position to set any conditions. She didn't argue with me about that. A few times, she has thrown a hissy fit about putting her pre-marriage surname in my son's name, and I told her I would not negotiate. She has not brought it up recently. I don't know if she has any remorse and has never owned up to her affair. She has even said, "I love you" (I have not said it in return). At the same time, I know that she still has too much bitterness, and the imaginary grievances she has built up are far from gone.

As for me, I am continuing to GAL. I have another solo adventure coming up. I have become quite health-conscious, and I work out regularly. No complaints about work. I don't get angry at all. I maintain a calm tone even when she gets crazy. I get her flowers sometimes, and she likes that. In the next few days, I will make one dinner for her and my son (I don't cook, and she knows that, so this might go down well). We have sex regularly (this was a 180 during DB in 2022), but she often tells me that sex is not as good as in 2022 - it's as if she is already starting to find faults smile. We have taken short vacations, during which she behaves fine. For Mother's Day, we did a staycation at a nice hotel, and I got her a relatively expensive dress. She did not like it and told me several things - I am cheap, unlike some of her friend's husbands, I never spent much on her, and I always considered her undeserving. The following morning, she apologized for her behavior. This was surprising as she rarely ever apologizes.

It would be great if I could get some advice on my next steps and any tips on what should be top of my mind regarding our MR.
YOU ARE DEFINITELY NOT PIECING.

GAL like a mad man.
Originally Posted by Boat14
YOU ARE DEFINITELY NOT PIECING.

GAL like a mad man.

Haha okay. I like the way you put it. Why do you say that though? What do you make of her telling me that she wants to work on the MR.
I am not an expert in piecing. Something I have not experienced.

You might be referring to this "thought process":
You have a private list of behaviors that you expect from her. Your non-negotiables. When she asks "What will it take for you to take me back", that is when the "I am not sure, what are you willing to change?" comes in. She will list things. "That is not good enough" is your response.

Sounds like you did not take this path. I am sure there are things that you can still do. There are 100's of solutions to each problem.

Lets take the "sex is not good". Go to the store and buy a few books for you to read to help you improve. The more important part is find two books for her to read. Lets say "How to give a better *** job". Give her the book as homework assignment.

See how she reacts.

Personally, I would want my lady to react enthusiastically. Anything else might need to be addressed.
I think at best you’re plan B as she searches for OM2. I know it sounds harsh but that’s the reality of it. What’s the plan moving forward as far as IC/MC is concerned? The affair can not be swept under the rug. For you to have a successful relationship you have to see each other as people of value. Not a consolation prize until your son is of age.

Keep GAL like a mad man and really start to think if this is what you want moving forward.
PB, there will be no ambiguity when you move into piecing. Piecing is not something you think you are in. It is not something you might be in. When you are in piecing, you will know.

When a WAS truly wants to work on the marriage, they usually do not articulate that. It is very rare for a WAS to say "Ok, I am ready to start working on the marriage." And even if they do you have to take it with a huge grain of salt. Especially if their actions do not back up their words. And in this case it sounds like you are not seeing that in her actions.

If you really want to test this, then start putting your requirements in front of her. You said R2C mentioned a contract for reconciling. It is less a contract than it is a list of requirements that you will require to consider trying to save the marriage. Things like full transparency from her. She doesn't get to have anymore secrets. You get to know where and what she is doing at all times. Including GPS tracking app on her phone so that her whereabouts are known (and yours are too) at all times. You get access to all email, social mediate and messaging accounts. Etc. Then you also require she get into IC, you continue IC (please tell me you are in IC!), and MC for both of you to attend.

You'll learn very quickly how serious she is about "wanting to work on the marriage".

As far as why she would say "I want to work on the marriage." I think boat14 is probably pretty close: to buy time. A monkey rarely jumps from the branch it is on until it has identified another branch that will support its weight. Often times when a cheater's AP breaks it off, the cheater will go back to the LBS. That is what PLAN B is! Plan A didn't work out, so I will fall back to plan B. Likely she is miserable because she had plan A built up in her mind that it was going to be rainbows and unicorns, and now, for the time-being, she has resigned herself to the drudgery of Plan B. Plan B is what she had before, that she was unhappy with and that opened her up to another plan to begin with. If you go back to business as usual, I can almost guarantee that you will be setting yourself for a future BD #2. Many of us have been there.

I agree with boat. Keep DBing. Focus on yourself, be the best dad you can be, GAL, continue to work on your own self-improvements, and then do not stop working towards proper detachment. In fact, google: "self-differentiation in marriage". That is your new normal. That is what you want to strive for. To be an individual that has no codependency on another human-being, and is just as happy by himself in his own skin as he is as part of a committed, mutually-satisfying relationship.

One last thing, I do see the regular sex as a good sign. One of the first signs my wife was coming back to the marriage was regular sex. However, it is a bad sign that she is complaining about it. It, again, sounds like Plan B.
She’s monkey branching you. Don’t expect it to last.

Quote
She did not like it and told me several things - I am cheap, unlike some of her friend's husbands, I never spent much on her, and I always considered her undeserving. The following morning, she apologized for her behavior. This was surprising as she rarely ever apologizes.

You want some help with next steps?

Step 1 - work out if you REALLY want to be married to a selfish little girl who stamps her feet if she doesn’t get what she wants.

You know there’s real women (who act like adults) out there who will value and appreciate you?

Sounds like you’re trying to stay married to a baby.

Don’t buy her anything. Spend more time in your own. And if you want to check her resolve, tell her you are no longer willing to work on the marriage unless she commits to IC and MC. Then you’ll really see the truth.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Don’t buy her anything. Spend more time in your own. And if you want to check her resolve, tell her you are no longer willing to work on the marriage unless she commits to IC and MC. Then you’ll really see the truth.
Kind is wise.

Get your private list of what you want out of a wife. See if her behavior fits. Do not supplicate.
Originally Posted by Boat14
I think at best you’re plan B as she searches for OM2. I know it sounds harsh but that’s the reality of it. What’s the plan moving forward as far as IC/MC is concerned? The affair can not be swept under the rug. For you to have a successful relationship you have to see each other as people of value. Not a consolation prize until your son is of age.

Keep GAL like a mad man and really start to think if this is what you want moving forward.

I don't think she is looking for an OM2 right now. She will probably continue with me until she has found enough excuses to defect once again. And at that point, she might look for an OM2. I am planning to bring up IC/MC issue next week.

I am GAL'ing to my satisfaction. But I have not started thinking about what I should be doing about the MR in the future. Been putting it off because it is a tough subject.
When it comes to WWs they have no shortage of reasons to end a marriage. As for actively seeking OM2 you would be surprised on how calculating a WW can be when they want out. For this to workout long-term it has to be difficult and you have to be willing to make it difficult for her. If not at best you are kicking the can down the road. It’s very difficult to turn around a WW without them hitting rock bottom first. Read Terrapins thread for good insight on bomb number 2.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by Boat14
I think at best you’re plan B as she searches for OM2. I know it sounds harsh but that’s the reality of it. What’s the plan moving forward as far as IC/MC is concerned? The affair can not be swept under the rug. For you to have a successful relationship you have to see each other as people of value. Not a consolation prize until your son is of age.

Keep GAL like a mad man and really start to think if this is what you want moving forward.

I don't think she is looking for an OM2 right now. She will probably continue with me until she has found enough excuses to defect once again. And at that point, she might look for an OM2. I am planning to bring up IC/MC issue next week.

I am GAL'ing to my satisfaction. But I have not started thinking about what I should be doing about the MR in the future. Been putting it off because it is a tough subject.


We've seen this reluctancy in truly recommitting back to the marriage after an affair before from WASs. Almost always they are biding their time until the OP has a change of heart, or OM2 comes along. WW in particular have a way of attracting no end of losers. It's a sad reality whether she's actively on the prowl or not.

The good news is that none of it matters. You just keep DBing. Focus completely off of her. Look up "self differentiation in marriage". That's your new normal.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
We've seen this reluctancy in truly recommitting back to the marriage after an affair before from WASs. Almost always they are biding their time until the OP has a change of heart, or OM2 comes along. WW in particular have a way of attracting no end of losers. It's a sad reality whether she's actively on the prowl or not.

The good news is that none of it matters. You just keep DBing. Focus completely off of her. Look up "self differentiation in marriage". That's your new normal.


I have been reading up on Self-Differentiation. The first step is to be highly self-aware IMHO - something that I am still working on. She has no one to help her - her close confidant friends are obviously in a faux protective mode, her brother & mom aren't going to give her any good advice about MR or self-improvement and her IC is still the same one who aided her towards BD. She does not have the personality type to forget, or forgive - she tends to do the opposite, which is to write vicious messages (mostly on grievances that make no sense to me) and read them later to keep them top of mind as if they are trophies she should not let go. She has in fact told me that she wants to 'forget' and 'move on' but I doubt her intentions are sincere. Even so, she is still putting in material actions to improve the relationship, like cooking sometimes, random cuddling/kissing, trying to discuss day-to-day things, planning dates, etc. These material actions are a step in the right direction, but their efficacy is limited IMHO because of unresolved deep-lying issues.
Her viciousness has returned in the last two days.

- She yelled at me for opening a box of chocolates in our pantry that she had planned to gift to a friend of hers. Of course, she told me that she had gotten it for us and never told me that she planned to give it to her friend. The chocolates are absolutely bad, but she tells me that now I must finish the whole box for being so inconsiderate to her friend.

- She yelled at me at a high-end restaurant for starting to eat too soon, before taking a good picture of her with the food (not true - I took at least 10 pictures but she says I am more interested in starting to eat than take photos - shows how inconsiderate I am about her dressing up for the dinner), went on about how incompatible we are that there is nothing to talk about, no wonder she had decided to D.

- She asked about training with my personal trainer. I told her that my personal trainer is becoming ineffective so I might have to change, and she took that opportunity to accuse me in front of our kid that I am trying to discourage her from training. By mistake I replied sharply (did not raise my voice) that she should feel free to find any trainer for any kind of training that she wants - it just does not matter to me. She blew her fuse and started repeating things like I was faking everything, I had gone back to who I was, I was being 'abusive' to her etc. I told her to stop saying all that in front of our kid and said I am leaving this space. She shouted, "Get out" and that was it.
Sounds like she is trying to force you to file and look like the bad guy. The way to combat is to give her more space than she could ever want. When she’s home you are out GAL. Keep holding on your boundaries that she will not disrespect you in anyway. It’s going to be a long tough road either way my friend. I’m sorry.
It's been 6 months since my last update. Things have not looked up since. She gets mad at me frequently for the most trivial things and in bizarre ways. For example, I am driving, and she asks me to take a turn, and it turns out it's incorrect, so I tell her that was the wrong turn. She goes ballistic and accuses me of calling her a liar, "You know you are being extremely disrespectful." She regularly threatens me that she will note down whenever "I make her mad" and then revisit it later, which will undoubtedly lead to divorce. She still refuses to see a different IC.

During these crazy episodes, I stay calm, and it often leads to me leaving the space (enforcing boundaries) or asking her to leave the room (in case I am doing something I don't want to abandon). I have informed her that her threats have no effect on me and that her reactions are not only entirely under her control but are making her far more miserable than they are making me. I keep in mind that I am not her therapist, and so I try to curb my outflow of advice. She wants me to do things for her - buy her expensive gifts (she regularly tells me that I was always much cheaper than all her friends' husbands), be physically affectionate to her frequently throughout the day, do much more around the house, etc. I know that nothing will fix her deep-seated unresolved issues, and I have also told her that I don't have the power or ability to solve her problems. I reminded her that our MR had bottomed and there was no shortcut to a wholesome, loving MR, but she seems to be very resentful that she does not have that now and that I am not really "stepping up."

She regularly belittles me, and I recognize it but do not react. She always attempts to come back by cooking something or saying something nice but then repeats her off-the-rails behavior within days. I have found myself withdrawing and losing hope, but I do not show that outside.
PB, serious question. What are you trying to save here?
Not sure why you’re bothering with her.

Quote
For example, I am driving, and she asks me to take a turn, and it turns out it's incorrect, so I tell her that was the wrong turn. She goes ballistic and accuses me of calling her a liar, "You know you are being extremely disrespectful." She regularly threatens me that she will note down whenever "I make her mad" and then revisit it later, which will undoubtedly lead to divorce. She still refuses to see a different IC.

You know, there’s millions of incredible women out there who can say “I was wrong” rather than gaslighting and emotionally abusing their husband.

You seem to reiterate with pride how you force yourself to ignore her behaviour.

You might think that’s attractive, but to her, it’s not. It just makes her despise you more.

If she says “I will note it down if you make me mad”, perhaps you could suggest that will help her when she finally decides to talk about her anger issues with a therapist rather than blaming you.

Or perhaps respond with “That will mean we have log of all the times you gave me incorrect driving directions but you were unable to admit your mistake.”

There’s a very fine line between an unaffected, calm man - and being a doormat.
Originally Posted by Kind18
You might think that’s attractive, but to her, it’s not. It just makes her despise you more.
This one statement should be burned into your brain. Do lots of research into this subject. Change your behavior.

Originally Posted by Kind18
If she says “I will note it down if you make me mad”, perhaps you could suggest that will help her when she finally decides to talk about her anger issues with a therapist rather than blaming you.

Or perhaps respond with “That will mean we have log of all the times you gave me incorrect driving directions but you were unable to admit your mistake.”
Another option is to use humor and exaggeration.

"Perfect! I will make sure to buy you a box of pens so you can keep track of everything!"

Elevate yourself so high that you can see the humor in everything. Stay in your frame, not hers.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
PB, serious question. What are you trying to save here?

I am trying to save our marriage for the sake of my autistic son. I know that is not the right reason, but I can't seem to look past that. However, my resolve has been steadily diminishing, and lately, I have noticed a sense of indifference to her overtures (like makeup cooking and cuddling). I have also started giving some thought to the impact on him of a D, a few years down the line if not now.
Originally Posted by Kind18
You know, there’s millions of incredible women out there who can say “I was wrong” rather than gaslighting and emotionally abusing their husband.

Sigh, yes. I felt sad when you pointed out the emotional abuse here. But thanks for the honest feedback.

Originally Posted by Kind18
You seem to reiterate with pride how you force yourself to ignore her behaviour. You might think that’s attractive, but to her, it’s not. It just makes her despise you more.

I would like to believe that I am not ignoring her off-the-rail behavior. I feel what has happened is that during the 2022 phase of DB, I had consciously not reacted to her outbursts and that behavior has been baked in now. It looks like you are advising that is not the right behavior. An angry reaction would be impossible. That is what I used to do pre-BD, and I am over that now. I also cannot get sucked into an argument with her - that is exactly what she wants, and she has always been a pro at sucking me into a nasty fight.


Originally Posted by Kind18
If she says “I will note it down if you make me mad”, perhaps you could suggest that will help her when she finally decides to talk about her anger issues with a therapist rather than blaming you.

Or perhaps respond with “That will mean we have log of all the times you gave me incorrect driving directions but you were unable to admit your mistake.”

It looks like you are suggesting a different kind of reaction. Actually, I've changed the nature of my reactions lately:

- Recently, when she said she would note down this episode, I said that's great; please do that and discuss it with your IC.
- When she exaggerates a problem, I tell her to note this instance down and maintain a log. "That will give you some much-needed numbers so that you can base your decision to stay with me on numbers rather than imagination."
- Today, when she tried to pick a fight over something trivial (she usually blames her behavior on "PTSD" from her decade-long pre-BD marriage to me) - I asked her in jest why we were buying a big box of expensive chocolates for someone who does not eat chocolates, she blew up. After waiting for her to finish, I told her firmly that I would not hold back from asking harmless questions or giving harmless opinions. "If you are triggered so badly by simple things like this, perhaps it is time for you to take a break from me and figure out whether you really want to stay with me".
- In one instance, I reminded her calmly that, unlike just after BD, I will not stop her from leaving should she decide to do that again.
- I've told her that her getting angry will not impact me much nor change me. Instead, it will harm her.


Originally Posted by Kind18
There’s a very fine line between an unaffected, calm man - and being a doormat.

Thanks for the reality check. I will keep this in mind. Will responding in certain ways or enforcing boundaries by leaving the scene help?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Kind18
You might think that’s attractive, but to her, it’s not. It just makes her despise you more.
This one statement should be burned into your brain. Do lots of research into this subject. Change your behavior.

I am processing it. Why will it make her despise me more?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Another option is to use humor and exaggeration.

"Perfect! I will make sure to buy you a box of pens so you can keep track of everything!"

Elevate yourself so high that you can see the humor in everything. Stay in your frame, not hers.

Great advice. I feel I have not been able to use humor with her. I tend to use humor with everyone except her and my parents. Maybe it has something to do with closeness. Once, when I used humor, she accused me of mocking her. Not sure if I didn't say it right or if she just didn't get it. Using humor with her will be a good 180 for me and a great self-improvement goal.
This is a tough read. Relationships are supposed to be fun, exciting and mutually beneficial for both involved. It shouldn’t be about logging the other person’s perceived faults so you can share it with your therapist. Not all marriages are salvageable as it takes two people to make it work.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3) - 12/24/23 06:05 PM
Good Morning Peter

Originally Posted by PeterB
She gets mad at me frequently for the most trivial things and in bizarre ways. For example, I am driving, and she asks me to take a turn, and it turns out it's incorrect, so I tell her that was the wrong turn. She goes ballistic and accuses me of calling her a liar, "You know you are being extremely disrespectful." She regularly threatens me that she will note down whenever "I make her mad" and then revisit it later, which will undoubtedly lead to divorce. She still refuses to see a different IC.

Originally Posted by Kind18
You seem to reiterate with pride how you force yourself to ignore her behaviour.

There’s a very fine line between an unaffected, calm man - and being a doormat.

W is baiting you into conflict. Don’t step into the trap.

Be a calm and unaffected man. That is different than simply ignoring her behaviour.

Hurt people, hurt people. Realize W is hurt. And she will react, lash out, in bizarre ways to trivial stuff.

A few comments for the above example:

You are driving. You are in control of, and responsible for the operation of the vehicle. When W tells, gives, suggests, directions you decide your course of action. If you know which way to go, as in her instruction is a wrong turn, don’t turn. Follow your route. If your not sure, and do turn as suggested, and it turn out incorrect - no need to point that out! Just get back on the right path and continue. Fighting begets fighting.

Hmmm, that seems to ring true further than confines of a vehicle.

W writing down when you make her mad is pretty telling of how petty she is being and how hard she is trying to find fault and cause for an argument. Keep clear for that target.

By the way, you do not “make” her mad. You are not that powerful. No one is. No one can control someone else’s emotions. Influence, certainly. Like how beautiful music can reach in and touch the soul. However, control? Nope. So, at most, you are stirring/influencing her angry pent up emotions to surface. Maybe even triggering them. Although, it sounds like her feelings are bubbling just below the surface most times.

You can, and do, control you. Just drive, and be calm. No defending nor explaining how she was wrong. You simple cannot, and will not, win or get through. You could fight as the day is long trying to tell her the sky is blue, and she’d still tell you the sky is red. Let it go.

Remember, calm and unaffected man. Not ignoring. If you remain silent and W brings up that was a wrong turn, simply agree. She’s knows who suggested what. “Yep, made a wrong turn. No big deal, we’re back on track.”

Originally Posted by PeterB
She regularly belittles me, and I recognize it but do not react.

People will treat you the way you let them. Which leads to placing boundaries on disrespectful behaviours.

Good for not reacting. However, do you act?

Originally Posted by PeterB
Will responding in certain ways or enforcing boundaries by leaving the scene help?

Yes.

Regularly belittling behaviour is disrespectful. You take action on that. (Calm and unaffected, not ignoring, action rather than reaction.) A premeditated action when W behaves in a predetermined manner. That’s a boundary.

Originally Posted by PeterB
During these crazy episodes, I stay calm, and it often leads to me leaving the space (enforcing boundaries)…

Crazy episodes are, in and of themselves, not boundary worthy. You are not trying to directly control or modify W. You simply remove yourself from disrespect if and when it occurs.

Originally Posted by PeterB
…or asking her to leave the room (in case I am doing something I don't want to abandon).

I’d not ask her to leave the room. If you have exhausted cordial conversation and are at the point of boundary enforcement, enforce it. You leave.

You leaving speaks volumes. Actions speak much louder than words.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I have informed her that her threats have no effect on me and that her reactions are not only entirely under her control but are making her far more miserable than they are making me.

That will be seen as a challenge.

State your clear well thought out boundary once and then just enforce it.

Originally Posted by PeterB[I keep in mind that I am not her therapist, and so I try to curb my outflow of advice.[/quote
Good. No matter how right you may be, she will fight against it.

[quote=PeterB]She wants me to do things for her - buy her expensive gifts (she regularly tells me that I was always much cheaper than all her friends' husbands), be physically affectionate to her frequently throughout the day, do much more around the house, etc. I know that nothing will fix her deep-seated unresolved issues, and I have also told her that I don't have the power or ability to solve her problems. I reminded her that our MR had bottomed and there was no shortcut to a wholesome, loving MR, but she seems to be very resentful that she does not have that now and that I am not really "stepping up."

What is W’s love language? What is your’s?

You cannot fix her for you did not break her. However, you can certainly clean up your side of the street and address any improvements or shortcomings, especially since your toolbox is acquiring more and better tools now.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She always attempts to come back by cooking something or saying something nice but then repeats her off-the-rails behavior within days. I have found myself withdrawing and losing hope, but I do not show that outside.

You recognize this dynamic. This cycle.

Boundaries and influence. Acknowledge her positive behaviour, be unaffected by her negative, and implement boundaries when necessary.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I am trying to save our marriage for the sake of my autistic son. I know that is not the right reason, but I can't seem to look past that.

“Trying”, “but”, “can’t”.

Do or do not, there is no try. Trying encourages a mindset where success and fail have equal possibilities and probabilities. Doing encourages and focuses one’s efforts better.

Can’t. As in it’s impossible? Or is it more won’t? You are in control. “Can’t” removes that control. “Won’t” allows room for growth and betterment. It also holds yourself accountable.

Sake of son is a reason. Remove “right”. Things are seldom that black and white, or right and wrong. No need to encourage such binary thinking.

“I am efforting to save my marriage for the sake of my autistic son. I know that is not the best reason, and I’m having difficulty looking past that.”

Originally Posted by PeterB
my resolve has been steadily diminishing, and lately, I have noticed a sense of indifference to her overtures (like makeup cooking and cuddling). I have also started giving some thought to the impact on him of a D, a few years down the line if not now.

Indifference, that numbness towards your W, is perfectly normal. And temporary! Do not make major decisions in this temporary period. Be wary, other feelings loom and will look larger against the void. Indifference does unwind and feelings do return.

During this time of indifference, the LBS usually has a somewhat peace, a calm and quiet, a detachment and indifference to the cacophony of their spouse’s behaviours and words. Use this time well!

Dig in to yourself. Discover your convictions. Your values. Your beliefs.

We all have a lifetime of experiences and pressures and biases and prejudges and so on. Beliefs are very slow to change and therefore make excellent headings for life’s journey. This is strangely a golden opportunity to become.

Strengthen those beliefs that serve you. Craft those convictions you aspire to. And discard or alter that which does not serve.

Once organized, cataloged, and pruned, one’s beliefs really start to influence one’s thoughts, emotions, and actions. It is here that DB truly lives. That hope lives.

We all start with the default standing for our marriage. That slowly gives way. We stand for our spouse. Even our kids. Eventually one - stands for themselves. Their beliefs. “I stand for me.” That’s the wellspring of hope and conviction.

Become you. Become PeterB2.0.


Merry Christmas to you and your’s. And all the best in 2024.

D
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