Hi all,
Been perusing this forum for about a week after checking out DR from my local library and then ordering my own copy. I have greatly benefited from the advice and stories on here. If I may delve into my own situation...
Background: married almost 17 years; together for two prior to getting hitched. Wife and I have three sons (14, 8, 5) along with W's daughter (21) and son (18) from her previous marriage, whom I raised with her as my stepchildren.
We've had ups and downs in our marriage but never anything I imagined would have us looking at divorce. The first chink in the armor (for me, in my head) came in November, when W asked me to fix something with her computer. Not being especially tech savvy myself, I simply tried a restart. When the screen came to life, W immediately rushed across the kitchen in a panic and grabbed the computer away from me, hustling off to the bedroom. It all happened too fast for me to realize what was going on or make out what was on the screen. Clearly something was awry. I finally got out of her that it was a Facebook Messenger screen where she had simply been talking to a male friend. In hindsight, this was clearly an EA, the duration of which I honestly don't know.
We fought about that for a few days; if I recall, she later came up to me the night after it happened and tearfully said she hadn't meant to hurt me. By and large, I let it go, as nothing seemed off at the time. At some point thereafter (unfortunately the precise timeline eludes me) she became sneaky and like a bulldog with her phone. I also noticed way later that she had stopped tagging me in Facebook family photos (something she had done religiously) the first week in December.
I noticed some distance forming between us in February and she barely acknowledged my birthday. During this time, she was taking a few online classes to attain another degree, and she would be holed up in the basement area of our home for hours at a time after the kids were put to bed. I began going to bed before her, something that was previously rare. We also stopped watching tv shows together at night. In other words, she had ample opportunity to get fully neck deep in this EA.
Sometime in March I started getting onto her about suspicious dips into the bathroom that took way longer than they should, accusing her of texting "the guy." One thing about W is that she is not a good liar. I mean, obviously she's able to be duplicitous enough to have this EA going under me, but her body language and facial expression will reveal subterfuge. I knew then that whatever was going on appeared to still be a thing. Unlike SteveLW, whose threads have been invaluable to me (especially with all the posters who chimed in), I don't know specifics - is it one guy all this time? One EA that petered out and another that sprang up? Nudes? Sexting? In my mind, it's been one man consistently and I should probably assume the worst about the content.
Late March or April, W started seeing a counselor under the guise of working on lifelong confidence issues. Has this been a thing with her? Sure. But it also became clear that she was looking for affirmation that I had been a poor husband, to get some air under her wings to perhaps leave the marriage. I had been asking her to let me attend a session to "work on the marriage" as this counselor presumably did both IC and MC. Finally, on Good Friday in April, W admitted to me after a session that she "wasn't the same person" and still loved and cared about me but didn't quite feel the same.
I predictably tried to pull out all the stops (basically doing everything wrong from a DB standpoint). I hounded her about the EA, unfortunately not getting anything. A few female co-workers openly advocated for me to grab W's phone out of her hands when she had it unlocked, but I viewed that as a bridge too far. W would constantly tell me to cool my jets about D talk and that she was "conflicted." I started my own IC in April and that has definitely helped, though I'd say DR and what I've read on this forum have helped more.
Here are a few current nuggets before I post this:
* W has been very attuned to her appearance for a few months, running daily, fussing about gray hair on top of her head and coloring it frequently, getting her nails done (something she never cared about before) and finally - having breast augmentation scheduled for December. She's spun this as a positive for me, but I'm of course leery of a D taking place at some point after this. I think the youthful appearance wannabe thing goes with a MLC, but is this always automatically linked to being on the prowl for other men and/or monkeybranching?
* D talk is not on the front burner but W has been searching for a better-paying job (I know back from snooping that she's told friends she wants to be more financially secure before she tries anything)
* We're starting MC next week, but we both know it might not necessarily be as for a band-aid. My well-meaning therapist suggested I push for it as a way of gaining "clarity" before I was aware of DR and these boards. W finally acquiesced to attending. To be honest, one of my main questions is how to play this session when it rolls around next week
* W has definitely expressed cold feet to friends and to me about forging ahead with D, but you know, "Trust nothing they say and 50 percent of what they do." I know she was recently enamored by the plan of two divorcing college friends of hers - they will rent an apartment and rotate who's at the house with the children.
Any feedback is immensely appreciated! Will post more details as they come to me.
Unfortunately I have read this story 100s of times.. Doug what are your ages? How is your sex life?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
LH19,
Thanks for your response. W and I are both 43. Sex life is good. Never really had a dropoff there, though I was a little dispirited to read Sandi's comments in SteveLW's thread from 2018 about a woman using her H as fantasy vessel for living out sexual fantasies of her EA partner. Who knows if that happened with me. Probably so. Definitely had some rare occasions of morning sex during this time frame.
One question I have with DBing and detaching is that I was probably somewhat emotionally absent for my wife at times. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily agree but perception is reality. So, I just wonder if it would be counterproductive to be aloof but friendly. She asked me today why I was being "standoffish." As for my question - I used to make little creative cards filled with lines about funny things in our lives and leave them for my W. It was a hallmark of our courtship and continued for years, though it tailed off. I am past the "oh shoot" segment of lovebombing where a H sees he could lose W; things have calmed down, especially since I read DR. Yet, I've made her a handful of cards the past few months. She loves it (cake-eating, I'm sure, yet...). The other day she mentioned something like "if we stay married, it'll be because of those cards you make me" (probably temperature checking). I was just wondering if this might be something that helps recreate an emotional bond. Yes, it could be called pursuit. I dunno. I think the MLC is more a threat than the EA. You know, wife wants to change things up, identifies H as a target, figures life would be perfect with him out of the picture, therefore - D!
So Doug do you believe that the state of your marriage depends on you making cards?
I lived your life 8 years ago. It’s a horrible feeling when you feel your family slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it.
Strength is the only way to go moving forward.
So Doug do you believe that the state of your marriage depends on you making cards?
I lived your life 8 years ago. It’s a horrible feeling when you feel your family slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it.
Strength is the only way to go moving forward.
Well, when you put it that way...
What would be a show of strength in your mind? DBing and GALing like a boss? I've had enough time to think about all this to the point where I wouldn't view divorce as soul-crushing. Do I really want to be with someone who may well not want to be with me? In a marriage largely devoid of trust right now, I'd say. Yet, there's much at stake, of course.
Sure you can DB and get a life like a madman.
If I could give young LH19 advice when he found out his w was texting another man, I would tell him to tell her calmly “I know what you’re up to, you can’t have both. It’s either him or me”. Than act accordingly to her answer.
Easy for me to say now as I’m on the other side.
Hey Doug. Welcome to the forum and sorry you are going through this. It is kind of strange that you mentioned my threads because as I was reading your post the thought that it was similar to my situation struck me. And it is even more similar to my first situation with my W from 2005.
The first thing I can tell you is you need to drop your fear of D. When you try to DB out of fear it will cause you to do the wrong things. I tried DBing for 2 months out of fear of D. Once I started to drop the fear (about the time I found this forum) my DBing got a lot better. Dropping fear doesn't happen overnight, it is a process. Just like emotional detachment.
Next, remember, actions not words. You need to act not talk, but you also need to assess her plans based her actions, not words. D talk is on the back-burner, but all of her actions sound like she is heading that direction. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about that, which is why removing the focus from her, focusing on yourself, and starting to employ good DB principles it the best path forward for you.
I certainly do not recommend grabbing her phone from her hand. Assume the worst, hope for the best. Someone that is a bulldog with their phone is hiding something. Only the guilty have something to hide. So again, take her at her actions: if she is hiding her phone from you, if she is in the bathroom for long periods of time, etc, you can be assured that an EA is going on. Whether it is the same guy, or whether that fizzled and this is someone new is really not important. We LBSs like to fixate on the AP, but this is less about THE AP, and more about AN AP. In other words, if the AP ended things with her tomorrow, she'd just go out looking for a new one. It is part and parcel of wayward wives.
Speaking of that, you say this is her second marriage, but you do not say how her first marriage ended. Can you share why her first marriage ended?
Also, remember these words from one of the most wise posters this forum has ever seen (AnotherStander), you cannot nice her back to the marriage. Remember that. You want to command her respect, not try to nice her back. This is why GAL is so important. You need to stay busy and make her a much smaller part of her life. After all, that is what she has really asked for. She won't feel like she is losing you until she feels like she is losing you. Yeah, I said that right.
I'd cancel MC. "I've decided MC would be a waste of time at this point. Instead, I am just going to continue with IC to work on myself." MC in these situations rarely, if ever, work.
Remember, focus on what you can control, let go of what you cannot.
Sure you can DB and get a life like a madman.
If I could give young LH19 advice when he found out his w was texting another man, I would tell him to tell her calmly “I know what you’re up to, you can’t have both. It’s either him or me”. Than act accordingly to her answer.
Easy for me to say now as I’m on the other side.
I get it...I do. I've wondered how that would look given both W and I are on the mortgage. Neither of us could technically kick the other out. I happen to have more family in the area, but do I want to move out? Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?
Welcome, Doug.
SteveLW, whose threads have been invaluable to me
Steve's an active poster whose wife had an EA, he followed the DB approach, and he got to reconciliation--a good model if that's your ultimate goal for your situation. Sandi's Rules are also here to help you. Read through them twice. Ask questions.
Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?
Well, even if you choose to give up instead, it's essential to stay in the family home until a lawyer advises you that leaving won't affect 50/50 custody or your finances. The court tends to look at the "status quo" (last few months' possession). Tread carefully.
I'd cancel MC. "I've decided MC would be a waste of time at this point. Instead, I am just going to continue with IC to work on myself." MC in these situations rarely, if ever, work.
MC tends to be a waste of money unless both try, and you say she "finally acquiesced.
Thanks, Steve. Many words of wisdom there. I'm currently staying as busy as possible and giving the W a wide berth. Again, I'm not sure how much focus should be on the EA part (what little I know) vs the overall MLC. MWD's chapter on midlife crisis in DR touched upon several familiar happenings. Granted, the EA situation is wrong, of course, but if my goal was to avoid divorce, the MLC may be playing a larger role. W has several classic indicators of a MLC -
* unresolved childhood hurts/disappointments
* lack of career success
* feelings of nostalgia
* empty nest syndrome (second child about to leave for college, though we still have 3 at home)
There are probably others. I forgot to mention that she got a tattoo, wants a nose ring (and probably another tattoo), has widened her circle of friends and of course the breast enhancement. Yesterday she started talking about tummy tucks. All this physical improvement stuff seems to point toward MLC.
I hear you on cancelling the MC. I guess I'm curious about what path it will take. Much like what you described in your 2018 thread, things in the home aren't that bad. We're raising our kids, on civil terms and communicating, doing a few things together (though not much at all compared to the past), and having regular adult relations. I mean, aside from angry feelings that creep in at times where I wonder about the depth and scope of the EA, it's not a bad domestic existence.
An interesting note is that W views her mom as a bit of a failure who never amounted to enough in life. She's shared with me that that's why she's gotten into running distance events like half-marathons - to prove to herself that she can do things like that. Also the reason she's gunning for a more career-oriented job. None of this fits in with monkeybranching to another relationship.
I do like your inclusion of the advice from AnotherStander. I'm not trying to be too nice, but being emotionally distant played a role in landing where I am today. I probably have a situation where employing DB/GAL too far would push her further away- "Why haven't I left this guy yet? He's never around."
Anyhow, please chime in with any other advice.
Thanks for your input, Traveler. I'm honestly not sure what my expectations are with the MC. I figure I'll go and listen and see which way the wind is blowing. I know that my IC recommended MC for "clarity" and W was the one who found this particular MC, off a recommendation from stepdaughter's IC.
I didn't get into a relationship talk, but I did tell the W in passing that I didn't want to get sabotaged at MC. Meaning I'm aware of a friend she has that was dead set on divorce and used MC to grease those wheels. W then told me it wouldn't be like that. We're leaving for a trip mere hours after this first MC session is to take place, so common sense should dictate not to throw unpleasant bombshells out there right before a long car drive.
Doug54,
Sorry you're in this situation, but man did you come to the right place.
Unfortunately your story sounds so familiar because it happened to me and countless others here. So much of what you wrote brings corresponding memories in my sitch.
Background: married almost 17 years; together for two prior to getting hitched. Wife and I have three sons (14, 8, 5) along with W's daughter (21) and son (18) from her previous marriage, whom I raised with her as my stepchildren.
Speaking of that, you say this is her second marriage, but you do not say how her first marriage ended. Can you share why her first marriage ended?
I'm also interested in the answer to SteveLW's question. You've been together 19 years but your stepchildren from her previous marriage are 18 and 21? So you got together when she had a 2yo and was pregnant (or just had a baby)?
We've had ups and downs in our marriage but never anything I imagined would have us looking at divorce.
You would not believe how many people have said that here.
W immediately rushed across the kitchen in a panic and grabbed the computer away from me, hustling off to the bedroom.
At some point thereafter (unfortunately the precise timeline eludes me) she became sneaky and like a bulldog with her phone.
if she is hiding her phone from you, if she is in the bathroom for long periods of time, etc, you can be assured that an EA is going on
The #1 indication of an affair these days is a spouse's protectiveness of their phone/electronic devices. Often times it's a dramatic shift from both spouses using each others interchangeably without any regard to one spouse setting a password and guarding their phone like a hawk.
I also noticed way later that she had stopped tagging me in Facebook family photos (something she had done religiously) the first week in December.
You may want to consider unfollowing her. Not sure you should block her at this point, because that might cause some blow back, but don't let social media impact your emotional state. I distinctly remember the night my now ExW changed her profile pic from our family to one of her and her from on a girls trip before we met. She was at work late and I had put the kids to bed by myself...again. It rocked me and set me back, even though it was silly compared to what was going on overall.
I noticed some distance forming between us in February and she barely acknowledged my birthday.
The barely acknowledged birthday happened to me as well.
Sometime in March I started getting onto her about suspicious dips into the bathroom that took way longer than they should, accusing her of texting "the guy."
Super long bathroom trips happened in my sitch as well. Also going out to the car in the garage to "talk with her girlfriends". When your spidey sense goes off, trust it.
In my mind, it's been one man consistently and I should probably assume the worst about the content.
Sorry to say this, but the content/extent of the affair is almost certainly worse than what you've discovered.
But it also became clear that she was looking for affirmation that I had been a poor husband, to get some air under her wings to perhaps leave the marriage.
The WAS/WS will seek out validation for their emotions and disregard anyone who questions their actions. My ExW stopped talking to any friend who questioned her leaving our marriage and breaking up our family, and started being besties with anyone who she had previously regarded as low character who validated and encouraged it.
I had been asking her to let me attend a session to "work on the marriage" as this counselor presumably did both IC and MC.
Drop MC. There's no way MC will help if your W wants to leave. Both of you have to be committed to working things out, and she's not at the moment.
W admitted to me after a session that she "wasn't the same person" and still loved and cared about me but didn't quite feel the same.
"I love you but I'm not in love with you." Textbook.
A few female co-workers openly advocated for me to grab W's phone out of her hands when she had it unlocked, but I viewed that as a bridge too far.
Don't grab it out of her hands. You already know she's straying.
Also...why are you talking to your coworkers about this??? Keep it private. Maybe one or two close confidants.
* W has been very attuned to her appearance for a few months, running daily, fussing about gray hair on top of her head and coloring it frequently, getting her nails done (something she never cared about before)
Textbook WAS/WS actions. How are you making yourself attractive? Time to start running and hitting the gym yourself.
having breast augmentation scheduled for December. She's spun this as a positive for me, but I'm of course leery of a D taking place at some point after this.
DO NOT FUND HER BREAT AUGMENTATION! She IS NOT doing it for you. Talk to a L.
I think the youthful appearance wannabe thing goes with a MLC, but is this always automatically linked to being on the prowl for other men and/or monkeybranching?
She could be doing it for her EA partner. Or for other men. She's not doing it for you. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't change your actions. Focus on you.
We're starting MC next week
I'd cancel MC. "I've decided MC would be a waste of time at this point. Instead, I am just going to continue with IC to work on myself." MC in these situations rarely, if ever, work.
Cancel MC. Unless you are both fully committed to working on the marriage - and don't fool yourself, currently your W is not, then it's pointless.
"I've decided against MC and plan to focus on IC instead."
W finally acquiesced to attending.
MC tends to be a waste of money unless both try, and you say she "finally acquiesced.
"finally acquiesced". That's exactly how I'd describe my then-W's stance on MC. I asked her for months to try it and when she finally agreed it was all of 3 sessions before she said she wanted a D. MC could be your W's way of delivering the message. Unless she really wants to work on the relationship and fix the marriage, don't bother - your time is better spent in the gym.
I know she was recently enamored by the plan of two divorcing college friends of hers - they will rent an apartment and rotate who's at the house with the children.
Do not, under any circumstances, rotate between the marital house / apartment. Hope you bust this divorce, but if it does end in separation do separate places - and you stay in the house. She's having the affair. She can move out.
Sex life is good. Never really had a dropoff there, though I was a little dispirited to read Sandi's comments in SteveLW's thread from 2018 about a woman using her H as fantasy vessel for living out sexual fantasies of her EA partner. Who knows if that happened with me. Probably so. Definitely had some rare occasions of morning sex during this time frame.
A friend of mine's W is having an EA yet their sex has ramped up. He thinks this is a positive sign, but I'm concerned for him...
It’s a horrible feeling when you feel your family slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it.
Agreed. Deeply sorry you're here Doug54. It really is an awful feeling I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Strength is the only way to go moving forward.
Doug54. LH is dead on here. Really spend some time thinking about this comment. Acting out of fear and acting weak is not going to help your situation. What you really need to do is get into a mindset of strength. YOU and the prize. She is crazy to leave you. You will be fine no matter what. It's very difficult to think that way when your family / way of life is threatened, but it's also the best mindset to have both for your mental health and for your chance to save things. You need to flip things on their head and reclaim the power. Act as if. You actually sound a bit stronger and more level headed than a lot of newbies, but work on your strength. It's time to start going about becoming a man she'd be crazy to leave and making your life incredible regardless of whether she's in it. In fact, if she wants to be in it SHE is going to have to prove to YOU that she's worth it.
Whether it is the same guy, or whether that fizzled and this is someone new is really not important. We LBSs like to fixate on the AP, but this is less about THE AP, and more about AN AP. In other words, if the AP ended things with her tomorrow, she'd just go out looking for a new one. It is part and parcel of wayward wives.
Agreed. Things ended between my ExW and OM1 - which I hoped and prayed they would after BD - and she went right out and got OM2 before she moved out and filed for D. Easier said than done, but don't fixate on the AP.
Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?
Well, even if you choose to give up instead, it's essential to stay in the family home until a lawyer advises you that leaving won't affect 50/50 custody or your finances. The court tends to look at the "status quo" (last few months' possession). Tread carefully.
DO NOT move out. At the very least consult an L first, to Traveler's point. But also consider you have S5, S8, and S14 who may view this as their home. Not sure your financial ability to keep the house, but at their ages this house might be viewed as "home" and the new place that either you/W get might be "daddy's/mommy's place". Position yourself as home base.
Sure you can DB and get a life like a madman.
If I could give young LH19 advice when he found out his w was texting another man, I would tell him to tell her calmly “I know what you’re up to, you can’t have both. It’s either him or me”. Than act accordingly to her answer.
Easy for me to say now as I’m on the other side.
I get it...I do. I've wondered how that would look given both W and I are on the mortgage. Neither of us could technically kick the other out. I happen to have more family in the area, but do I want to move out? Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?
Oh I’m not talking about kicking her out I am talking about divorcing her. Again I’m not advocating that for you, it’s a perspective after hindsight and reading 1,000 of stories. Generally you will negotiate who keeps the house in the divorce settlement. So if ultimatums and boundaries are off the table it comes down to you deciding and becoming the man you want to be moving forward. If that person becomes super awesome maybe it attracts your W back and maybe it doesn’t. Your W is actually doing the same thing right now except I suspect you are not the person she is trying to attract. What would Doug 2.o look like on paper?
Thanks for the input, BL42. Sounds like there's definitely a common theme around this board with what I'm living through.
I definitely feel like I'm in a place of strength now. To be honest, I was ready to pull the rip cord on D about a month ago, but finances and me not wanting to be the one to leave, plus my IC posing some thoughts on my preparedness to do so made me pause. I also got caught up in the template for dealing with a MLC rather than focusing on the EA.
I fear W and I may wind up in a stalemate over who moves out. Even if she gets one of the higher paying jobs she's applied for, I can't see her being the one to leave. Perhaps after consulting with a lawyer I could get a separation agreement drawn up wherein I'm not considered abandoning the household, and live free with nearby family while the separation clock starts ticking. Top concern would probably be getting the finances separated ahead of this breast augmentation procedure.
I don't know if I really see a path to R at this point. In this day and age with smartphones, I feel I'll never be able to trust W again. Part of my problem the last few months was that my brain would just play a loop of greatest hits when I thought about the relationship. Then I would consider the financial hit of D, effect on the children, and what the marriage currently looked like. I guess it didn't feel terrible if I pretended nothing awful was taking place on the phone. MWD wrote in DR that during a MLC there would be times that felt normal, like days of old, that would be enough to keep you going. And yet...
Here's an interesting tidbit that I'm almost embarrassed to admit. I met W while she was separated from her first husband. It was an abusive relationship with the high school / college boyfriend which resulted in a shotgun wedding. In retrospect, a clear monkeybranching scenario. But, I fell in love with her and raised her two kids as my own. Was it perfect? No. But it certainly wasn't in the territory of the narcissism and control stuff she tried to throw out there as justification after sessions with her IC. Again, definitely trying to validate leaving in her own head. BL42, I agree with the comment about only surrounding oneself with friends who will affirm leaving the husband. W's stable of divorced friends seems to have grown exponentially the past few months.
I'm wondering if I should just use the MC session to air some thoughts on D. I mean, I'd almost prefer a referee of sorts rather than have these conversations in the bedroom with possibly raised voices and the kids nearby. As much as I may want to stealth this whole thing, I don't know if that's feasible. Funnily enough, W has noticed me being standoffish (more like aloof in a neutral way) and has sought me out multiple times the past few days. I don't doubt for a millisecond she's in over her head with this whole thing and will badly miss my help and companionship. Again, I'm not sure what a path to R would be with trust shattered. Sometimes, what gets broken doesn't go back together again.
BL42, would you mind giving me a Cliffs notes version of how your situation shook out? I'm sure you have threads somewhere but I'm still making my way through Steve's. Thanks again.
LH19, thanks again for offering advice. I'm more involved with the kids this summer (I certainly wasn't absentee in any way before, but I've taken more initiative lately to give W "space"). I've gone to a gym for years and don't have a dad body at all, so the 2.0 Doug won't be going from schlub to physical specimen. I've reconnected with old friends and have a fun reunion planned with a college buddy in a couple weeks. I need to get into some new stuff though, to re-forge my identity. W really curtailed my social life early in the marriage.
I've done a lot more around the house as W tends to get overwhelmed with things. Again, not to say I didn't before. I'm working on several 180s, but if you look at what I wrote in response to BL42, I'm not harping on R. The trust thing just feels like an insurmountable obstacle. I definitely would like another relationship down the road, so hopefully I can apply new habits to the future. Might not hurt to read that No More Mr Nice guy book that some tout on this board.
To your point, I need to think about enforcing a bedroom boundary, but if I'm already largely resigned to D, maybe I should just ride things out.
So, W had a meltdown a while ago after I took the 14-year-old out to spend some time with him and she had the younger two home with her. She's been complaining a lot more about the kids infringing upon her time to do herself. I don't see her turning into a WAW who bolts on everything, but it's definitely a MLC.
I made the mistake of initiating a very brief relationship talk after she'd cooled down, saying something like "I'm ready for this too" (meaning separation and moving in that direction). I also made reference to the MC helping us with moving on. Not great on dipping into anything related to relationship talk, but it was from a position of "strength" I guess.
Doug strength is in actions not words.
I was wondering - if the line about "you'll never be more attractive than when she thinks she might lose you" applies, what incentive do I have to be the one to leave?
I believe Hoosjim referred to his experience wherein W had two weeks of panic after he "left" (whether that means leaving the marriage, the home, or both?). I just see the potential for a lengthy status quo if neither spouse is keen on being the one to pack up.
Yep that’s why detachment is key.
Doug54,
I definitely feel like I'm in a place of strength now.
You sound stronger than most newcomers, which is good.
To be honest, I was ready to pull the rip cord on D about a month ago, but finances and me not wanting to be the one to leave, plus my IC posing some thoughts on my preparedness to do so made me pause.
Careful. Don't do anything rash. Do you know what you want? Filing for D rarely helps. Most here say you should focus/work on yourself, don't try to block anything D-wise but don't rush it along either. To be clear, I'm pro-marriage. It's definitely best for the kids, you, and W (imo) IF you two can get on the same page and work things out.
I also got caught up in the template for dealing with a MLC rather than focusing on the EA.
People told me - and I've seen advice to many others as well - don't try to diagnose your spouse; focus on yourself, not whether it's an "EA" or "MLC".
Perhaps after consulting with a lawyer I could get a separation agreement drawn up wherein I'm not considered abandoning the household, and live free with nearby family while the separation clock starts ticking.
Definitely consult an L before you move out. That's an absolute must.
Top concern would probably be getting the finances separated ahead of this breast augmentation procedure.
Definitely don't pay for her surgery. I think it must places an elective surgery like that right before separation/D would be her obligation, not yours, but again...consult an L.
I don't know if I really see a path to R at this point. In this day and age with smartphones, I feel I'll never be able to trust W again.
Trust hard to build and easy to destroy.
Part of my problem the last few months was that my brain would just play a loop of greatest hits when I thought about the relationship.
As is often said around here, many LBSs look at the marriage through rose colored glasses once BD hits and forget they were not all that happy in the marriage either.
Then I would consider the financial hit of D, effect on the children, and what the marriage currently looked like.
You should consider the kids. There's no doubt they're better off if their parents can work it out.
Here's an interesting tidbit that I'm almost embarrassed to admit. I met W while she was separated from her first husband.
Good you can be honest and transparent about it. The timeline certainly made it questionable. Perhaps some karma coming back at you.
It was an abusive relationship with the high school / college boyfriend which resulted in a shotgun wedding.
Do you know it was abusive? Or were you told that. I know my ExW told her family and friends that I beat her down emotionally to a 0. I absolutley did not. My ExW told people ludcrious things like I refused to let the kids eat pancakes (one morning at 5am when she was leaving the house early to work to meet up with her AP I told them no pancakes this morning) I also know my ExMIL told people my ExFIL was abusive and I strongly suspect he was not. The point is...you can't really trust what they tell you. They're not going to say the father of their young children who they're leaving is a standup guy...they need to justify what they're doing.
In retrospect, a clear monkeybranching scenario.
Is their father in the picture? You must have an impression of him after 19 years of helping to raise his kids. Is he has bad as she described when she left him for you?
But it certainly wasn't in the territory of the narcissism and control stuff she tried to throw out there as justification after sessions with her IC. Again, definitely trying to validate leaving in her own head.
Right. They need to justify their actions.
BL42, would you mind giving me a Cliffs notes version of how your situation shook out? I'm sure you have threads somewhere but I'm still making my way through Steve's. Thanks again.
Married 7 years, together 9 with a 1yo daughter and 4yo son when two weeks after a family vacation to Disney now-ExW says she wants to separate. I find out the next day she's in an EA with a married coworker which turns into PA and for the next several months beg/plead/try talks and put the kids to bed/get them up in the morning while she's "working late" and "working early" inlcuding leaving our son's birthday party early to meet up with AP. The affair ends when their employer and OM1's W find out, and I naively ask her to keep the family together (again), only to find out later she's already lined up OM2, and moves out/files for D/moves him in with my kids in a matter of a month. 2.5 years post-BD, 1 year officially divorced.
I'm more involved with the kids this summer (I certainly wasn't absentee in any way before, but I've taken more initiative lately to give W "space").
Great. Make sure being a good father is your #1 priority. They deserve that.
I've gone to a gym for years and don't have a dad body at all, so the 2.0 Doug won't be going from schlub to physical specimen.
Good. You're ahead of the game.
I've reconnected with old friends and have a fun reunion planned with a college buddy in a couple weeks.
Awesome. Sounds like you're doing all the right stuff Doug54.
I need to get into some new stuff though, to re-forge my identity. W really curtailed my social life early in the marriage.
Very common, but self-reflection...you allowed that to happen. Make sure to focus on yourself and your interests in the future.
I was wondering - if the line about "you'll never be more attractive than when she thinks she might lose you" applies, what incentive do I have to be the one to leave?
People tend to want things they can't have, and tend to try to hold onto things that are slipping away from them. It doesn't mean you should move out and divorce her. It means detach and start focusing on improving yourself and making your life great. If she senses your calm, cool, collected and are starting to detach she might just start wondering...
Thanks for the detailed response, BL42. I read your thread and I'm sorry about how things unfolded for you. It does sound like you're a really great and involved dad, though.
If you or anyone else can offer advice here, I'd be most appreciative. I'm essentially treading water with W in what would appear to be a normal home situation (to anyone on the outside looking in). However, as I mentioned in my initial post, she's months deep in an EA in which I know few details. I think she is looking for a soft landing in the form of getting a better job and one of us moving out. No indication at all from what I've snooped (bad, I know) into messages to friends, etc. that this is a local dude or someone that would become a reality once we split up. Who knows.
We're going to a MC this week that supposedly helps work on "transitions" as part of their practice, in addition to regular MC stuff. I'm curious if W will actually bring up any concrete plan suggesting I move out for a bit. Of course, I could refuse, but I do have family nearby. "Believe nothing they say and half of what they do" - she's been wishy washy in the past about this topic and how it would uproot the family, so I don't know.
My dilemma is that it's clearly best for the kids if we both remain in the house for now. We're not fighting and it's a steadier presence for one parent to be home while the other is out somewhere. On the other hand, I'm not thrilled with the cake-eating and time W spends at night clearly on her phone with the EA partner. There's just no doubt. If I were to pre-emptively say in the MC session that I'm tired of it, I'm done, I'm getting a separation agreement drawn up, separating the checking account, and moving out with family (and then do so), it would be a big reality check for her. If there were ever any hope for R down the road, it would be kick-started by this. To be honest, I don't know if the trust deficit that now exists could ever be restored. But me getting out of the house would help further my detachment, which is currently coming along.
I know it seems to be generally recommended that the cheater and the one who wants the D should be the one to go, but she has no local options and has stated in the past that she wouldn't leave the kids. Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions!
If I were to pre-emptively say in the MC session that I'm tired of it, I'm done, I'm getting a separation agreement drawn up, separating the checking account, and moving out with family (and then do so), it would be a big reality check for her.
I actually think that would play into exactly what she wants and would love you to move out.
Doug54,
she's months deep in an EA in which I know few details.
Hate to say this, but chances are it's longer / deeper than you know - very possibly PA, even if he's out of town.
I think she is looking for a soft landing in the form of getting a better job and one of us moving out.
Very possible.
We're going to a MC this week that supposedly helps work on "transitions" as part of their practice, in addition to regular MC stuff.
Personally, I'd cancel. "Unless you're interested in repairing our marriage, I don't see a need for MC."
I'm curious if W will actually bring up any concrete plan suggesting I move out for a bit.
Personally I WOULD NOT move out. If she brings it up "I do not plan to move out.", then listen and validate. Or, if you'd rather "I'll have to think about that." Do no commit to anything in real time. Give yourself a chance to think about any proposal before responding. There's no rush to decide in the moment.
My dilemma is that it's clearly best for the kids if we both remain in the house for now. We're not fighting and it's a steadier presence for one parent to be home while the other is out somewhere.
It's best for the kids IF you both agree to and commit to working it out. But that depends on your stance, yes, but also your W's, so it's not fully in your control. If one or both of you will not commit to working on it just delaying the inevitable with the move-out/separation. Personally I would want to be the one to decide to separation or D. That was my ExW's choice, not mine - I'm comfortable with my own decisions for my own integrity and morals.
On the other hand, I'm not thrilled with the cake-eating and time W spends at night clearly on her phone with the EA partner. There's just no doubt.
You're right. You know she's cheating. There is no doubt. And it's definitely hard when it's thrown in your face during IHS.
If I were to pre-emptively say in the MC session that I'm tired of it, I'm done, I'm getting a separation agreement drawn up, separating the checking account, and moving out with family (and then do so), it would be a big reality check for her. If there were ever any hope for R down the road, it would be kick-started by this.
I absolutely would NOT do this as a way to "wake her up". If anything this is more likely to slide your relationship down the slippery slope. The general stance here is open the cage and let her go if she chooses to - and indifferent party - but don't kick start/initiative the process.
To be honest, I don't know if the trust deficit that now exists could ever be restored.
Only you can decide that.
But me getting out of the house would help further my detachment, which is currently coming along.
On the one hand it will help bring peace and settle you down a bit not having that in your face. On the other her EA will continue anyway, and it might help push things along for her. If she wants to leave, let her to the heavy lifting. Just IMO.
I know it seems to be generally recommended that the cheater and the one who wants the D should be the one to go, but she has no local options and has stated in the past that she wouldn't leave the kids.
That's her problem. Seriously. She's having an affair and wants to rip apart your family. You shouldn't be concerned about making it easier for her because she doesn't have family in town. Just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but I would not leave the house. Your children know and are comfortable in that house. That's their home. Let your W find a new place and have them be "home" with you and "go visit mommy at her new place".
My dilemma is that it's clearly best for the kids if we both remain in the house for now.
You don't control whether she moves out. You control whether you move out. Get comfortable with "You control you, I control me." Try to avoid "We-statements" as most of them involve controlling a second person.
<she> has stated in the past that she wouldn't leave the kids.
It doesn't sound like her moving out is an imminent worry, anyway.
Of course, I could refuse, but I do have family nearby.
So? Moving out isn't in your best interests. From a custody and finance perspective, she would possess the family home, a huge asset and more comfortable for the kids. She would likely end up with more overnights with custody and support consequences. That's why we keep saying like a broken record to speak to an attorney before making any plans about moving out. Perhaps most importantly, not many success stories here begin with the LBS moving out. You joined because you wanted to save your marriage, rebuild trust, and have that family for your kids? If you've changed your mind, sleep on that a few days before acting and then plan with your attorney and speak through actions intended to best protect you and your kids' rights!
I'm curious if W will actually bring up any concrete plan suggesting I move out for a bit.
"No, that doesn't work for me." Listen and validate the many feeling that may arise for her (show her Doug54 at his best--able to be fully present and emotionally available!). Do not counterattack, argue, justify, defend, etc.
I advise that you drop out of MC. Even if she "finally acquiesced", it's not like there has been obvious signs that she wants to piece and she was the one who chose the counselor. MC would have been helpful during the time the marriage was degrading but it will go against you now. These days D lawyers actually advice the WAS to go into MC just to deliver the message (convince you through the counselor) or to buy time for the WAS's own purposes (wrap up that job, plan up post D life, etc). Imho its better use of your time to self-reflect and GAL. Only if you find a counselor who is pro marriage that you should do MC and even that only after you see positive changes in her that occurred organically.
If I were to pre-emptively say in the MC session that I'm tired of it, I'm done, I'm getting a separation agreement drawn up, separating the checking account, and moving out with family (and then do so), it would be a big reality check for her.
I actually think that would play into exactly what she wants and would love you to move out.
That's a fair assessment and definitely crossed my mind. I guess I have to measure that against how long I'm content to feed her cake and settle for crumbs.
If one or both of you will not commit to working on it just delaying the inevitable with the move-out/separation. Personally I would want to be the one to decide to separation or D. That was my ExW's choice, not mine - I'm comfortable with my own decisions for my own integrity and morals.
Thanks for your reply, BL42. The above quote stood out to me the most. That's the thing - I may just be delaying the inevitable. There's a part of me that wonders if she'll have the balls to pull the trigger. OTOH, do I want to be treading water for eons rather than getting this show on the road and meeting a better partner at some point? Yes, I get that the site is Divorce
busting. I'm just pondering likelihoods.
Did you mean you would
not want to be the one deciding on separation? That sort of makes more sense, and is probably something I could live with. Let her be the bad guy who broke up the family.
That's her problem. Seriously. She's having an affair and wants to rip apart your family. You shouldn't be concerned about making it easier for her because she doesn't have family in town. Just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but I would not leave the house. Your children know and are comfortable in that house. That's their home. Let your W find a new place and have them be "home" with you and "go visit mommy at her new place".
Yes, I appreciate that. The funny thing in all this is that if I close my eyes just hard enough, things seem
almost normal. But I don't think I have the patience to "stand" for too long in an emotionally lacking marriage.
It doesn't sound like her moving out is an imminent worry, anyway.
Thanks for your input, Traveler. That's very true and I often forget about the maxim, "Believe none of what they say and half of what they do." By the way, is that geared toward a MLC spouse or any wayward/walkaway spouse?
So? Moving out isn't in your best interests. From a custody and finance perspective, she would possess the family home, a huge asset and more comfortable for the kids. She would likely end up with more overnights with custody and support consequences. That's why we keep saying like a broken record to speak to an attorney before making any plans about moving out. Perhaps most importantly, not many success stories here begin with the LBS moving out. You joined because you wanted to save your marriage, rebuild trust, and have that family for your kids? If you've changed your mind, sleep on that a few days before acting and then plan with your attorney and speak through actions intended to best protect you and your kids' rights!
Very true. To your point, since I joined the forum, I have been foaming at the mouth a little over boundaries and respect regarding W merrily forging ahead, texting her EA partner with impunity, with no reverence for the institution of marriage. I'm seemingly vacillating between "Yeah, I hope to save things" and "I'm out! I'm done!" Any rebuilding of trust would appear to be light-years away.
"No, that doesn't work for me." Listen and validate the many feeling that may arise for her (show her Doug54 at his best--able to be fully present and emotionally available!). Do not counterattack, argue, justify, defend, etc.
Excellent. Though since I've started detaching, she's sought me out more to ask what's going on, am I mad? I don't know if emotionally available Doug54 would elicit the same reaction. But I get what you're saying about validation.
I advise that you drop out of MC. Even if she "finally acquiesced", it's not like there has been obvious signs that she wants to piece and she was the one who chose the counselor. MC would have been helpful during the time the marriage was degrading but it will go against you now. These days D lawyers actually advice the WAS to go into MC just to deliver the message (convince you through the counselor) or to buy time for the WAS's own purposes (wrap up that job, plan up post D life, etc). Imho its better use of your time to self-reflect and GAL. Only if you find a counselor who is pro marriage that you should do MC and even that only after you see positive changes in her that occurred organically.
Thanks, Peter. So, my IC suggested I ask W to go to MC for "clarity" even if it wasn't to be restorative. In hindsight, maybe a boneheaded move from someone who only meant well. Obviously, he isn't familiar with Divorcebusting. W agreed to let me pick the counselor, but I struck out with finding one who had availability. W got a tip on one from my stepdaughter's IC and I agreed. I will pull the plug after the initial session if it feels fruitless. I don't think W is going off the guidance of a D lawyer, but your point about delivering the message through the counselor is something to be leery of.
Doug54,
OTOH, do I want to be treading water for eons rather than getting this show on the road and meeting a better partner at some point?
But I don't think I have the patience to "stand" for too long in an emotionally lacking marriage.
Have you seen the phrase "it's a marathon, not a sprint"? The most likely case is any turn around is going to take a LONG time, not turn on a dime. You need to steel your resolve or you're unlikely to be successful.
Did you mean you would not want to be the one deciding on separation? That sort of makes more sense, and is probably something I could live with. Let her be the bad guy who broke up the family.
Correct, that's what I meant. Excuse the typo. If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
To your point, since I joined the forum, I have been foaming at the mouth a little over boundaries and respect regarding W merrily forging ahead, texting her EA partner with impunity, with no reverence for the institution of marriage. I'm seemingly vacillating between "Yeah, I hope to save things" and "I'm out! I'm done!
It's natural to vacillate. You have a lot of emotions to process. It's going to take a long time and you'll have ups and downs. Be wary of wishing to pull the plug quickly - you may regret it. Take time to work through what you really want. You likely feel anxious and want a result but work on patience; there's no rush.
Though since I've started detaching, she's sought me out more to ask what's going on, am I mad? I don't know if emotionally available Doug54 would elicit the same reaction.
When the LBS clings on for ear life and smoothers the WS/WAS it causes them to run in the other direction. If you detach, keep your head up, smile and gone on to live your life they sometimes start to wonder if they're making the right choice...
If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?
If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?
I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.
If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?
I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.
So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?
Thanks, Peter. So, my IC suggested I ask W to go to MC for "clarity" even if it wasn't to be restorative. In hindsight, maybe a boneheaded move from someone who only meant well. Obviously, he isn't familiar with Divorcebusting.
Well, MC is boneheaded if your goal is to save your marriage and her goal is otherwise. In my MC, the therapist laid out relationship-supportive options <a>, <b>, <c> in our first session and my ex agreed to <c>, then changed her mind afterward. A session or two later the MC mentioned not-relationship-supportive option <d> and proposed I had problem <x> and she had problem <y>. That was our last session. For a long time, her narrative was the therapist validated <d> was the right path and that I had a problem with <x>. We later reconciled for awhile, but that MC was no help along the path.
If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?
I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.
So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?
Absolutely I do... Letting someone go is about boundaries...and can also be a very loving decision for both of you. You can do that AND honor your vows/values.
P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.
[quote=BL42] If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?
I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.
So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?
Absolutely I do... Letting someone go is about boundaries...and can also be a very loving decision for both of you. You can do that AND honor your vows/values.
P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.
.
So we agree. My point was BL made it sound like his W could do anything and he wouldn't divorce her because of his vows. IMO you must have boundaries that your partner cannot cross in a relationship/marriage.
Hi Doug,
I'm so sorry you are going through this. You've been getting a lot of great advice so far, so I won't add much in that regard. But I thought I'd comment on the marriage vows part as that was something I struggled with as well. My quick story is my XH had EA that turned to PA, MLC, and left me and is living with OW now. Raised his two kids as my own. Divorce recently finalized.
When it came to my values and my vows, I did try to do what I could to save the marriage because I held my commitment to that in high regard. However, with the situation as it was, I made an effort to ask for the opportunity to reconcile (without R talk pressure) a few times, asked for him to end his AF, and I refused to be the one to file for the divorce or help him with the process. So there I stood up for my values. For me, the only choices I had were to move on from the MR or to remain in a relationship with him and his AP. Part of that was I could never be in a MR of three, but part of that is that he was stealing money and I needed to protect my share of our assets. My ethics told me that accepting the D was the best way to live out my core values. I can sleep at night knowing that I tried, in the ways I could, but it takes two to make that process work. My XH refused. And hell, we did a Gottman retreat only a few months before he started his AF....so I agree, MC doesn't work in most cases.
The thing with the MLC part is also that the whole process takes a long time (if it ever resolves). And honestly, I am no longer feeling that I would want my XH back after all the deceit and his covert narcissistic behavior. Maybe it is mostly his MLC personality, but unfortunately, as time goes on, I struggle to know if the person I married was the person I knew. My IC and I both feel that my XH will turn around at some point and try to come back (hell, I did everything for him, so I would miss me too! hahah). But if I wanted to try again, it would be a whole new R anyway, so knowing that I still accepted the D. The D is a way to protect yourself legally. If you wanted to stand for her, you can still stand...and be divorced.
Anyway, I hope that provides more food for thought. You do sound a lot stronger than I was at the beginning of my journey. You are doing a lot of things right already, so just keep moving forward day by day. The folks on this site are amazing! I am not sure what I would have done without this forum!
El
Doug,
I feel your pain man. I would have done anything to hold the family together. Emails about all the things I did wrong, tattoos, working out, partying, lacking career goals (my fault), telling me I should move out. Wanting body improvements done, which I shut down thankfully. Worst 3 years of my life and I am just now on the other side. MLC/WAW in the end its the same. She is not into you right now and you need to really focus on yourself and the kids. Be stronger than I was. This will be a long haul and probably won't work out like you think you want now. Do what you have to do, but never give into fear and thinking your decisions will change your W.
I did not leave but did shared nest for a while. Alternating weeks. While this seemed best for the kids and finances, it was really best for the W to keep doing and spending as desired. It was painful in general and while I had sex and such with W at times, I did not detach very well. I recommend at a minimum unfollow on social, but also recommend getting off if you keep looking at her stuff. Getting off social helped me. Once we started living completely separate, things started sinking in more. It is going to take a while man, but the faster you can focus on yourself the better chance you have in all scenarios.
Wife brought up MC shortly before D, but it was clear her goal was different than mine and mostly checking a box that we did it. It was too late, W didn't want to work on the marriage. She never really did once she left, so no chance.
I could have done some things better D-b ing. Like never reacting out of anger no matter how much you want to. Its tough and IC can help for sure. I just couldn't get past things enough and she couldn't either.
In the end you just have to be good with what you did for you and the kids and maybe it works and maybe you move on.
Stay strong.
LH19,
So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values?
What was important to me was to be able to know in my head & heart - and be able to honestly tell my children someday - that I stood up and did everything I could to save my marriage and keep our family together. I did honor my vows.
Imo, there was nothing in our marriage which couldn't have been fixed or worked out if both of us tried. And as soon as I knew there was anything seriously wrong I TRIED. That included offering to work things out after the affair with OM1 ended in order to keep our family together. It also included me not even attempting to date until well after the D was legally finalized, even though she had moved OM2 in with her soon after moving out.
But...I can say for certain I acted with integrity, stood up for my marriage and family, and can honestly tell my children that someday. That was important to me.
My point was BL made it sound like his W could do anything and he wouldn't divorce her because of his vows. IMO you must have boundaries that your partner cannot cross in a relationship/marriage.
Now, to your point, is there ANY boundary that would cause me to pull the trigger? Some stories where the LBS is waiting 5-10 years with multiple affairs and drug/alcohol abuse and destroyed financials? Maybe I wouldn't have had the resolve to put up with that. And maybe I shouldn't. But I wasn't tested that way. I don't know how to quantify that line. My now-ExW went full steam ahead with the separation/OM2/divorce, and did not (at least from what I saw) waiver one bit. So who knows what I would've decided if it dragged on a decade. That she did go full steam ahead and didn't waiver still blows my mind a bit because honest to god our relationship was not so bad. I know my viewpoint is common and obviously she disagreed but we had it pretty good, so sometimes I feel embarrassed or inadequate that I'm divorced, but just as often I'm comforted a bit knowing it really was her own journey and not nearly as much related to me.
If you married again will you have any boundaries?
I'm not sure if I would get married again. I certainly wouldn't put up with such post-BD BS again in an LTR. Part of my stance was due to young kids, though I realize that wasn't a clause in the vows ("I DO...if we have young kids").
P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.
We did say "till death do us part", and I meant it. Even before DB/separation/divorce I remember having debates with friends who didn't take marriage as seriously as me and thought if you're not happy after 10 years it should be an option to renew or end it, which I thought was ludicrous. Now I suppose you could argue that technically neither of us are dead so I'm still bound by that vow, but my conscientious is clear that I stood until she actually did divorce me legally, so I think it's a fair stance for me to say that her action there absolves me of my vow.
Now...how does all that related to Doug54? He's mentioned a few times he's already ready to move on. If he's saying that just a few months in, what chance do they have? Maybe if he stands he won't have a chance to R, because ultimately it's up to his W. But if both of them move on it's way less likely they'll R. Now, to me, two decades of relationship and 3 children (plus two step children he's been a major influence in) says they owe the kids and themselves to work on it. Ultimately it's up to Doug54 to decide what actions are right for him and his children. But if I were him I'd dig down deep, consider his core beliefs, and be true to himself for his sake and his kids...all knowing it's ultimately not just up to him, and may not be in his control.
Great post by Greenman btw. Read that a few times. He's been there.
What if he core beliefs are that he won’t share his W with another man?
LH19,
What if he core beliefs are that he won’t share his W with another man?
I wouldn't share my W with another man and don't think Doug54 or others should either. That said, there's a big scale between a brief EA with a few inappropriate texts and 5 years of multiple long running affairs. While both are inappropriate, I'd agree with you the latter is a deal-breaker and I'm guessing you'd agree with me that the former can be worked through. Now, where at what point on that scale crosses a line which passes the point of no return? That's up to Doug54.
While both are inappropriate, I'd agree with you the latter is a deal-breaker and I'm guessing you'd agree with me that the former can be worked through.
I think anything can be worked through when there is regret and remorse. There very rarely happens here in the beginning.
Hi Doug, how are you doing?
Any rebuilding of trust would appear to be light-years away.
Yet, most of us who make it to piecing--where both have recommitted to facing and working through the issues that got you here--rebuild trust. First steps first. GAL, 180s, doing things that make you BestDoug54. That ball's in your court.
Doug, I am a huge proponent of IC. I think it is the best action a LBS can take to sort through their own thoughts and feelings once they have the D bomb dropped on them.
However, ICs are humans. They aren't perfect. I am a big advocate of shopping around for the right IC. We should never look up on Google, pick a random IC, and then stick with that IC whether they are working for us or not. Now, I am not saying your IC isn't a good one, but I certainly do not agree with their assessment of why you should go to MC.
MC is for two committed people that want to make their marriage work. Any deviation from that and MC has nil chance of doing any good. To me there is no such thing as going to MC for "clarity". MC is about trying to improve the marriage, and that cannot happen when one spouse is actively trying to leave the marriage. Either that spouse will go reluctantly and it will be a waste of time, or they will go simply to be able to say that it was tried, or to use MC to get their LBS to agree that D is the right approach.
IF, and I say again IF you can go into MC with zero expectations of saving the marriage and only to gain clarity, then I would say proceed cautiously. The problem is that very few, if any, LBSs can go to MC without expectations. And then they find themselves in various stages of frustration over it. Either their WAS isn't as engaged as they would like them to be, or the WAS refuses to do the homework (most MC are classically trained: IE they will push reconnecting activities to try), or in some other way undermines the MC for their own purposes. If you go in expecting the worst and that it will be nothing like you hope for it to be, then so be it. But be honest with yourself. Can you go into MC without any expectations that she will take the MC seriously?
Anyway, just some thought I had while reading your last few responses.
Thanks, Elbereth. Your situation has some close similarities to mine.
Raised his two kids as my own
Replace "his" with "her" and you have my experience.
For me, the only choices I had were to move on from the MR or to remain in a relationship with him and his AP.
Starting to feel like this for me, though the AP is over the phone - texting and whatnot. No signs of slowing or stopping from what I can tell. And yes, as BL42 has said, the depth and scope of the EA may be more or even PA.
The thing with the MLC part is also that the whole process takes a long time (if it ever resolves).
Yes, this is a concern of mine.
Maybe it is mostly his MLC personality, but unfortunately, as time goes on, I struggle to know if the person I married was the person I knew.
Completely agree. She's still a good mom (at this point) and throws me some crumbs without being hateful or totally impossible to live with, but the person I fell in love with and married is virtually gone.
You do sound a lot stronger than I was at the beginning of my journey.
Thank you. I am conflicted and trying not to be the one to pull the trigger, but I don't have complete trust with the finances.
I appreciate your thoughts and input!
Thank you, Greenman. As with Elbereth, I also see some similarities in your experience to what I'm currently living.
all the things I did wrong, tattoos, working out, partying, lacking career goals (my fault), telling me I should move out. Wanting body improvements done, which I shut down thankfully.
Yes, very much so. Not so much on the partying (yet), but everything else. How did you shut down the body improvements part? That train is leaving the station on my end (W has not only a consultation for breast augmentation set, but an appointment date in a few months as well). I'm pretty sure she has gotten a Care Credit account in her name only, but at the moment we still have a joint checking account.
I did not leave but did shared nest for a while. Alternating weeks
Is this another term for in-home separation? Or where a common apartment (for example) is rented, and one parent is in the home while the other resides in the apartment, taking turns? W is very interested in this idea after hearing about it from some newly separated friends. I have mixed feelings about it and believe at least one poster on here recommended against it. On the other hand, it wouldn't completely involve me vacating my own home. It's not a long-term solution but perhaps equitable for a time.
In the end you just have to be good with what you did for you and the kids and maybe it works and maybe you move on.
Yes, the other day I thought I was set to begin figuring out the beginnings of a separation process with W because I felt we were both getting there, but today I just don't know. Ugh. But I do appreciate your thoughts.
While both are inappropriate, I'd agree with you the latter is a deal-breaker and I'm guessing you'd agree with me that the former can be worked through.
I think anything can be worked through when there is regret and remorse. There very rarely happens here in the beginning.
I do appreciate that qualifier, LH19 - "in the beginning." Still not sure what I envision is the ideal result for me, but it helps to read that.
IF, and I say again IF you can go into MC with zero expectations of saving the marriage and only to gain clarity, then I would say proceed cautiously. The problem is that very few, if any, LBSs can go to MC without expectations. And then they find themselves in various stages of frustration over it. Either their WAS isn't as engaged as they would like them to be, or the WAS refuses to do the homework (most MC are classically trained: IE they will push reconnecting activities to try), or in some other way undermines the MC for their own purposes. If you go in expecting the worst and that it will be nothing like you hope for it to be, then so be it. But be honest with yourself. Can you go into MC without any expectations that she will take the MC seriously?
Anyway, just some thought I had while reading your last few responses.
That's a surprisingly prescient take on what I experienced yesterday, Steve. I'm going to sort of summarize where I am in a separate, encapsulating post, but thank you.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in with thoughts. To update:
Attended MC with W yesterday before hitting the road on a previously planned trip with the kids. I'm well aware of the consensus on MC when it's not explicitly in a restorative capacity, but I found myself drifting and detaching heavily the past few days and thought I may well be arriving on the same page as W that something needed to be done. I was getting tired of taking an emotional backset to whomever the EA partner was.
The MC session started off ok enough. We both pretty much agreed that we were open to discussing separation options. This particular MC has experience in helping to facilitate "transitions." Unfortunately, I more or less went off the deep end by launching into W about her affair. I believe it came after the counselor was asking about the "best interests" of the children as far as whom might leave the house to begin a separation. The younger two kids gravitate more to W than me. So my ire was about being in this situation at all...in other words, why should I be tasked with leaving?
We got to a point where the scheduled trip felt on the verge of not being able to happen. The counselor spent probably the last 10-15 minutes of the session cooling things off and asking if we could hold it together for the kids (it goes without saying, and logic would dictate, that this could be the final trip we take; I'm typing this from our hotel). We both agreed that the trip should go forward. Fortunately the car ride was not the powder keg I envisioned it might've been.
When the session ended, we scheduled another appointment, but I'm probably going to back out of it. For anyone who may want to chastise me about even letting that MC meeting happen, again, I thought I was inching towards the door of separation, just like W. I'm still uncertain and conflicted. I don't think things will get better without W getting a taste of separated life. And even then, who knows. The two biggest factors for me right now are maintaining the two-parent stability in the house for the kids and of course, the comfort and familiarity of my own home that I bought and have worked on. W and I are both on the mortgage, to be fair. And yes, I am weak and still accepting the sexual crumbs that fall my way on a pretty consistent basis.
FWIW, the trip has settled in nicely despite some unfortunate vitriol last night after the kids were put to bed. W needed to have it out with me a little bit after what I said in the MC session, but I probably didn't do the greatest job of validating. I'm just too hung up on what Sandi typed a while back, about a WW dodging responsibility for an affair by pointing to past marriage shortcomings.
Many thanks to all who have posted on my situation and please keep the feedback coming.
Unfortunately, I more or less went off the deep end by launching into W about her affair. I probably didn't do the greatest job of validating. I'm just too hung up on what Sandi typed a while back, about a WW dodging responsibility for an affair by pointing to past marriage shortcomings.
Hi Doug,
It's normal for you to feel angry, hurt, and betrayed. Seriously, we've all been there, and most of us at some point lashed out. Of course, lashing out at her shoves your W away from unsafe AngryDoug and towards safe OM. This isn't TheWay whether your goal is to bring her closer to R OR get her to agree to the best possible D terms. Steve mentioned how valuable IC is as a way for you to get stronger and deal with your rollercoaster of emotions. There's also fitness and meditation. Get your head in a place where you can follow Sandi's rules (have you read them?), GAL, and 180.
Unfortunately, I more or less went off the deep end by launching into W about her affair. I probably didn't do the greatest job of validating. I'm just too hung up on what Sandi typed a while back, about a WW dodging responsibility for an affair by pointing to past marriage shortcomings.
Hi Doug,
It's normal for you to feel angry, hurt, and betrayed. Seriously, we've all been there, and most of us at some point lashed out. Of course, lashing out at her shoves your W away from unsafe AngryDoug and towards safe OM. This isn't TheWay whether your goal is to bring her closer to R OR get her to agree to the best possible D terms. Steve mentioned how valuable IC is as a way for you to get stronger and deal with your rollercoaster of emotions. There's also fitness and meditation. Get your head in a place where you can follow Sandi's rules (have you read them?), GAL, and 180.
^What Traveler said.
Doug54,
For me, the only choices I had were to move on from the MR or to remain in a relationship with him and his AP.
Starting to feel like this for me, though the AP is over the phone - texting and whatnot. No signs of slowing or stopping from what I can tell.
You have to wrap you mind around a realistic timeline. It's very unlikely to change day-by-day. Think long term. "This is a marathon not a sprint". Right now you may be thinking each day seems like a month but in a year or two you'll look back and see how quickly time went by.
That train is leaving the station on my end (W has not only a consultation for breast augmentation set, but an appointment date in a few months as well). I'm pretty sure she has gotten a Care Credit account in her name only, but at the moment we still have a joint checking account.
Did you consult a L yet? Get the information you need to reassure and protect yourself on the financial front.
Is this another term for in-home separation? Or where a common apartment (for example) is rented, and one parent is in the home while the other resides in the apartment, taking turns? W is very interested in this idea after hearing about it from some newly separated friends. I have mixed feelings about it and believe at least one poster on here recommended against it. On the other hand, it wouldn't completely involve me vacating my own home. It's not a long-term solution but perhaps equitable for a time.
DO NOT, under any circumstances, agree to a "Nesting" situation where you're switching weeks on and off between the home and a rented apartment. Almost every vet on the board will agree on that. Listen to the advice and read others sitches who agreed to nesting. How is your detachment going to be coming back to sleep in the house she brings another guy into? You shouldn't move out at all - if she wants to leave, she can, but it's your house.
Unfortunately, I more or less went off the deep end by launching into W about her affair. I believe it came after the counselor was asking about the "best interests" of the children as far as whom might leave the house to begin a separation. The younger two kids gravitate more to W than me. So my ire was about being in this situation at all...in other words, why should I be tasked with leaving?
So Traveler nailed it, but this is a big no-no. #1 rule of BD'ing is no R talks and no fights/outbursts. It's totally understandable you'd be furious about the EA, but you need to get stronger emotionally and not let it show. Be cool, calm and collected. Project strength. Don't let anything phase you (at least visibly, fake it till you make it if you have to). Be mysterious and coy and have a wry smile. Make her wonder what you're thinking and why you're not begging her.
I thought I was inching towards the door of separation, just like W. I'm still uncertain and conflicted.
Your emotions are going to go back and forth. Don't make any rash decisions. Take time to let the emotions settle and think logitically.
I don't think things will get better without W getting a taste of separated life.
It's likely she's going to feel great and enjoy the freedom for awhile. Usually they're loving life...at first.
The two biggest factors for me right now are maintaining the two-parent stability in the house for the kids and of course, the comfort and familiarity of my own home that I bought and have worked on.
You have to accept you have no control over this. If she moves out, you can't stop her. But don't be the one to move out.
And yes, I am weak and still accepting the sexual crumbs that fall my way on a pretty consistent basis.
Time to get strong. Do you want to be having sex with your W who is involved with another man?
Doug54 - Hang in there. It's going to be a rollercoaster ride. Work on getting stronger emotionally. You will be fine, either way. You can do this.
Hi Doug,
A little more on my situation. My XH said he wanted a divorce and I kicked him out. It was only after he left that I discovered he was having an affair. He actually left to meet her and the EA turned into a PA (if it hadn’t been already). It may have been going on as an EA for over 6 mos or so, and when confronted, he still insisted he wanted a D. He lived away for a while, but would come spend the night when we had the kids…being they are his bio children…seemed appropriate. He’d stay in the basement. After some time, I talked him into staying at the home as we were not divorced and expenses were still being shared, so I felt it was costing too much money. Also, I hoped that having him close and doing my 180s, etc, might help shift him out of it and he’d agree to work on things. That went on for months until we both moved out to have the home remodeled to sell…
Why I’m telling you this is to show that there are many paths that one can take in the timing of separation/divorce. The critical thing that I think you need to get figured out is financial. So talk to your lawyer. Maybe come up with an agreement on financials/spending during this transition. In my case, I had put everything towards the family and the marriage, and in the end…in the divorce, those funds were just gone. If I had put more funds towards my own retirements or other accounts, I would have been better off. So protect yourself. Especially being a step-parent…we already get the raw end of the legal deal there.
Also, your emotions are going to be all over the place. All the more reason to not make rash decisions. So, you got angry and ‘slipped’…do better the next time. But at the same time be kind to yourself. This all takes time. It’s a lot. You are going to mess up. That’s okay. Pick yourself up and just keep moving forward.
My D took longer to happen because 1) I didn’t want to be the one to file 2) I hoped he might allow some opportunity for reconciliation, 3) I wasn’t in a good state of mind and was barely holding it all together. Then he dragged his feet…but after a while he still pushed for the D. If I felt that there was anything to salvage, I may have stayed standing. But not when he made no effort to end his AF and insisted he was done. And he also was stealing money. But that was my situation. Everyone has their own limits and own path. And there is no rush to find your way. Control what you can control. Talk to your lawyer and protect yourself in the short term and give yourself the time you need for the longer term stuff to come.
El
[quote=Doug54]That train is leaving the station on my end (W has not only a consultation for breast augmentation set, but an appointment date in a few months as well). I'm pretty sure she has gotten a Care Credit account in her name only, but at the moment we still have a joint checking account.
Did you consult a L yet? Get the information you need to reassure and protect yourself on the financial front.
^^This!
Sorry you are here Doug!! Worst time of my life.
You are getting good advice.
I can relate to the uneasiness and “dilly dally” limbo you are in.
IMO you asap need to talk to an L, DO NOT have sex, find your strong consistent path and make yourself unavailable.
Strong and consistent for me was a routine of IC, heavy gym workouts, work, dinner and activities with friends, DIY on house (in particular the kids rooms).
Happy to answer any questions you may have.
Also, my thread may be interesting to you, if you have the time.
Doug,
Sorry about your situation.
I would not attend MC.
I would go live an interesting life and learn and exhibit attractive behaviors. I would be "private" about my phone, where I was going, and who I was with.
Tell yourself every day that this may be the last day of your marriage. Prepare for that possibility.
Don't get caught up in what she's doing. Decide your breaking point and follow through even when it's hard.
Also don't worry about moving out (for either of you two), you're not there yet.
Thanks, BL42.
DO NOT, under any circumstances, agree to a "Nesting" situation where you're switching weeks on and off between the home and a rented apartment. Almost every vet on the board will agree on that. Listen to the advice and read others sitches who agreed to nesting. How is your detachment going to be coming back to sleep in the house she brings another guy into? You shouldn't move out at all - if she wants to leave, she can, but it's your house.
What are some of the other reasons there's such an outcry against nesting? I mean, I get the main one, but it would seem like if you could agree on a "no sex with others rule" that it would at least get both parents into the house on a rotation. I'm not saying I'm smitten with it, just asking.
Doug54 - Hang in there. It's going to be a rollercoaster ride. Work on getting stronger emotionally. You will be fine, either way. You can do this.
Appreciate the vote of confidence. Yes, it's a rollercoaster ride in real time...I'm living it. Swinging like a pendulum between hope and derision on this trip that I alluded to, which has meant being closely tied to W (and kids) much more than at home.
Lol. Rules. Doug think of this as Thunder Road in the movie Grease when crater face says “the rules are there are no rules”.
We’ve had LBS finding used condoms and anal beads in the love nests trash cans.
Sorry to hear the additional details of your situation, Elbereth. The refusal to end the affair coupled with stealing funds on your husband's part sounds maddening. I agree with the part about not wanting to be the one to file for D, at least as of now (for my own situation).
Why I’m telling you this is to show that there are many paths that one can take in the timing of separation/divorce
I appreciate reading this. I guess no two situations are truly alike, although there are surely similarities that others can relate to.
Also, your emotions are going to be all over the place. All the more reason to not make rash decisions. So, you got angry and ‘slipped’…do better the next time. But at the same time be kind to yourself. This all takes time. It’s a lot. You are going to mess up. That’s okay. Pick yourself up and just keep moving forward.
Thanks for adding this. Sometimes it's hard to remember all the tenets of the tried and true DB playbook. Probably everyone who comes to this site wants the same outcome, at least initially.
Everyone has their own limits and own path. And there is no rush to find your way. Control what you can control
I'm terrible with just taking one day at a time and often immediately rush to the worst case scenario. Granted, a lot of the situations on this board do end in the "worst case." (I suppose the true worst case would be death, but you know what I mean.)
How are things between you and your ex-husband today?
Appreciate your post, ovrrnbw.
Already told W that I don't plan to go back.
Tell yourself every day that this may be the last day of your marriage. Prepare for that possibility
That's something I've probably lost sight of, but need to try to keep in mind. Right now we're on a trip with the kids that has helped summon many nostalgic summer thoughts to my head. Really not helping with detachment. Like, at all.
Don't get caught up in what she's doing. Decide your breaking point and follow through even when it's hard.
I needed this reminder. Not sure what the breaking point officially is and/or when it will present itself. Like I told Elbereth above, as of now, I would prefer not to be the one to file for D. Quite possibly would be a gift to W, and I don't know if I want that on my conscience - that I pulled the trigger on breaking up the family. BL42 would agree.
Also don't worry about moving out (for either of you two), you're not there yet.
Thanks for this thought. It's stressful to consider, but you're right. In fact, given our family calendar circumstances the rest of the summer (as well as the board harmony on *not* being the one to move out), it's hard to fathom when any separation might germinate, unless something crazy happens with W.
Lol. Rules. Doug think of this as Thunder Road in the movie Grease when crater face says “the rules are there are no rules”.
We’ve had LBS finding used condoms and anal beads in the love nests trash cans.
You don't say...
What are some of the other reasons there's such an outcry against nesting? I mean, I get the main one, but it would seem like if you could agree on a "no sex with others rule" that it would at least get both parents into the house on a rotation.
You have a lot to learn, and you need to do it quickly. The rules have changed. She has lost attraction for you.
Do your research on attraction and take a good hard look at your behavior and make as many positive changes as you can as quickly as you can. You do this not to win her back, but rather to become a better version of yourself for you.
I have only read the last few of your posts, but it really doesn't matter. Focus on you and your own self improvement. Everything that works is counter-intuitive.
Dig deep into these threads and suck as much wisdom from these posters as you can:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712I wish you well during this most difficult time.
Ovr is completely right about no stress about moving out. If you decide to stand the timeline is years. 14 months from BD to XW moving out in my sitch.
You mentioned you co-own the house, as did I with my XW.
So what you need to consider long term, as part of a divorce, are you financially capable of buying her share? If so do you WANT to?
In the short term don’t make any moves befor consulting a lawyer and always from a position of strength.
What are some of the other reasons there's such an outcry against nesting? I mean, I get the main one, but it would seem like if you could agree on a "no sex with others rule" that it would at least get both parents into the house on a rotation. I'm not saying I'm smitten with it, just asking.
How would you enforce a "no sex with others" rule? What about making out, dirty dancing, etc with others? Agreeing to nesting thinking you can control a WW is fool's gold at best. All a "no sex with others" rule would do is mean that if she did sleep with someone you would never know about it. That is why we tell LBSs to assume they ARE sleeping with others. Now what? (Hint: you get to answer the "now what?" for yourself.
Though I never nested, I did watch my WW hoping she'd choose me. What a terrible place to be. Especially since she had made it clear she didn't want me. So with every move she made (EA, looking for another EAP after the first one ended, nude pics with 1st EAP, full blown dating profile on dating app, etc), I was disappointed. If I could look back at my old self at the beginning of my situation, I would tell myself to ASSUME the worst. And then make my decisions about how to move forward accordingly.
I'm terrible with just taking one day at a time and often immediately rush to the worst case scenario. Granted, a lot of the situations on this board do end in the "worst case." (I suppose the true worst case would be death, but you know what I mean.)
I do not agree. I know you think that worse case scenario is divorce. Not at all. Worst case scenario is that you learn nothing and do grow through out this situation. Whether you save your MR or not becomes less important than what you personally gain through the experience. Yes lots of posters here end up D'd. But a lot of them are better for it, and through working on themselves have set themselves up for future success in a new R. A few get stuck, but it is because they never really embraced that they have a choice for themselves no matter what their WAS ultimately decides about the MR.
Until you drop the fear of D, you will continue to thwart your own DBing efforts. We live in an imperfect world. You MR could end for a myriad of reasons (including death as you mention). Life is 10% what happens to us, and 90% what our attitude towards those things are.
What are some of the other reasons there's such an outcry against nesting? I mean, I get the main one, but it would seem like if you could agree on a "no sex with others rule" that it would at least get both parents into the house on a rotation.
You are already in the house with your wife and kids 100% of the time. Nesting doesn’t “solve” anything for you. If she wants to be away 50% of the time, let her work on what that looks like and how she’s going to pay for it while you use your gift of time to read Sandi’s Rules, process your emotions through IC or other means, GAL, and 180 any behaviors that aren’t working for you. Are you ready to DB and try Sandi’s Rules? The only logistical detail to look into is talking to a lawyer so your money isn’t used for her move-out, body enhancements, or vacations with OM.
I do have a true nesting story: two family friends tried it. The husband (LBS) cried that he still hoped they’d reconcile but he found used condoms of various sizes every time they switched homes. The wife (WAS) felt she’d been ethical by waiting to explore emotionally or sexually until she’d told him she intended to D and he agreed they should separate (nesting).
Your notion about a “No Sex” rule sounds naive.
How are things between you and your ex-husband today?
Barely communicating. I had told him that if we divorced we would not be friends. After he moved away to another state, he did make effort to stay in touch somewhat regularly. Even wanted to meet to 'catch up and have drinks' and I declined. I found that it wasn't because he wanted a relationship with me. It appeared that he wanted the D process remained civil, to keep himself looking 'good' to friends and family, and to use anything he could against me. For example, he was supportive and encouraging about my leaving the same employer he left, but then used my situation as a reason to provide less maintenance. Selfishness rules during the crisis, and when you add that to someone that I believe is also a covert narcissist, it makes trusting anything he says or does impossible. So I find it better to go NC as much as possible while still trying to remain a step-parent to the boys. If he reaches out, I usually stall my responses, keep them short and unemotional, and I do not reach out to him unless I need to. So far, especially since the D finalized, he's hardly been reaching out and lives in another state now. So I'm lucky there.
Not sure what the breaking point officially is and/or when it will present itself. Like I told Elbereth above, as of now, I would prefer not to be the one to file for D. Quite possibly would be a gift to W, and I don't know if I want that on my conscience - that I pulled the trigger on breaking up the family.
Many WW spouses try to get the LBS to file...so that they can say "see, he/she wanted the divorce and we both agree it's best". Forcing him to be the one to file was related to that as well as I wanted to make sure I did everything I could to save the marriage. And, I didn't want the ending of our marriage on my conscience just like you mentioned.
On another note, have you found the Hearts Blessing website about MLC? If you think she may be going through one, you might find it helpful. There are also many other articles that relate to affairs as well and might help you to get a better understanding of what happens. It's my understanding that he used to be on this site a long time ago...and she has passed away. But the site was still up the last time I looked. The stages articles really put into context how the MLC can drag out for a long time. The articles did not make me feel better but I did better with having information and understanding.
Living with my XH after the BD was difficult. He would wear a ring and a bracelet that his AP gave to him...which I asked him to remove to avoid rubbing it in my face. But I'm still glad I did it for the kids, for the attempt to save the MR, and for the time I needed to adjust. But I do regret not legally protecting my financials. We did discuss a verbal agreement, which he then proceeded to ignore. So, please do speak to a lawyer and get your financials locked down until you know what will happen in the future. Other than that, keep DB'ing, taking care of yourself, and moving forward. Control what you can control, which is really only yourself.
Hang in there!
El
Thanks for your suggestions and for the link to threads, Ready2Change.
Ovr is completely right about no stress about moving out. If you decide to stand the timeline is years. 14 months from BD to XW moving out in my sitch.
You mentioned you co-own the house, as did I with my XW.
So what you need to consider long term, as part of a divorce, are you financially capable of buying her share? If so do you WANT to?
In the short term don’t make any moves befor consulting a lawyer and always from a position of strength.
If I were to extrapolate your timeline to my own situation, it would put my W moving out roughly next summer, which I think could be plausible. I would be shocked if she tried to put something together before then, especially if I shoot down a nesting type setup.
She would not have the financial means to buy out my share of the equity in the home. Would I be able to do the same with her equity? Possibly, but I'd be losing a very favorable rate when I'd refinance. I don't know if either of us wants to boot the kids from their home by forcing a sale, so that could get interesting. This would be down the road, though.
Thanks for posting, Mumin. I've read some of your thread and I'm sorry for what you dealt with.
You are already in the house with your wife and kids 100% of the time. Nesting doesn’t “solve” anything for you. If she wants to be away 50% of the time, let her work on what that looks like and how she’s going to pay for it while you use your gift of time to read Sandi’s Rules, process your emotions through IC or other means, GAL, and 180 any behaviors that aren’t working for you. Are you ready to DB and try Sandi’s Rules? The only logistical detail to look into is talking to a lawyer so your money isn’t used for her move-out, body enhancements, or vacations with OM.
I do have a true nesting story: two family friends tried it. The husband (LBS) cried that he still hoped they’d reconcile but he found used condoms of various sizes every time they switched homes. The wife (WAS) felt she’d been ethical by waiting to explore emotionally or sexually until she’d told him she intended to D and he agreed they should separate (nesting).
Your notion about a “No Sex” rule sounds naive.
Between what you and LH have written, it sounds like there's a boatload of people out there who are mighty careless about where they dispose of prophylactics in nesting situations. How hard would it be to put that crap in a plastic bag and toss it in a McDonalds or 7-11 trashcan? Unless perhaps they wanted to send a deliberate message.
Nonetheless the point remains. I'll refuse to entertain any thoughts of "nesting."
Doug54 - Have you consulted with a L yet?
You are already in the house with your wife and kids 100% of the time. Nesting doesn’t “solve” anything for you. If she wants to be away 50% of the time, let her work on what that looks like and how she’s going to pay for it while you use your gift of time to read Sandi’s Rules, process your emotions through IC or other means, GAL, and 180 any behaviors that aren’t working for you. Are you ready to DB and try Sandi’s Rules? The only logistical detail to look into is talking to a lawyer so your money isn’t used for her move-out, body enhancements, or vacations with OM.
I do have a true nesting story: two family friends tried it. The husband (LBS) cried that he still hoped they’d reconcile but he found used condoms of various sizes every time they switched homes. The wife (WAS) felt she’d been ethical by waiting to explore emotionally or sexually until she’d told him she intended to D and he agreed they should separate (nesting).
Your notion about a “No Sex” rule sounds naive.
Between what you and LH have written, it sounds like there's a boatload of people out there who are mighty careless about where they dispose of prophylactics in nesting situations. How hard would it be to put that crap in a plastic bag and toss it in a McDonalds or 7-11 trashcan? Unless perhaps they wanted to send a deliberate message.
Nonetheless the point remains. I'll refuse to entertain any thoughts of "nesting."
Truth be told that really just don’t care.
Truth be told they really just don’t care.
Or they WANT you to see.
Truth be told they really just don’t care.
Or they WANT you to see.
Nah I really don’t think they intentionally want to hurt the LBS or be the bad guy. They are just so into what they are doing they really don’t care about anything else.
it sounds like there's a boatload of people out there who are mighty careless about where they dispose of prophylactics in nesting situations. How hard would it be to put that crap in a plastic bag and toss it in a McDonalds or 7-11 trashcan?
Maybe! For the family friends, I didn’t perceive any malice—she believed she’d freed herself from the relationship ethically (filing for divorce, separating) after trying to resolve issues in MC and was living her best life. How an ex felt about the way she conducted her life was no longer her primary concern, although I’d like to believe if she knew that she’d once left a used condom on top of the trash bin and subsequently he presumably began snooping for them she would have made adjustments. She seemed to get the rest on-point: he never complained of sex toys, lingerie, leftover food, scents on the bedding, extra wine glasses in the sink, or gifts like flowers and chocolates. I imagine it’s hard to hide all traces of an active love life when nesting. It's a difficult scenario for those still attached.
Doug54 - Have you consulted with a L yet?
I actually did a couple months ago, trying to get out ahead of the situation. That was way before I read DR or knew what DBing, GALing, and everything else was. I also had no clue about W's perceived timeline then, so I thought time might be of the essence when I scheduled the consult.
I got several good answers to questions but unfortunately the body improvements were not on the table at the time, so I didn't ask anything about that. I don't know if it's a regional or primarily large city thing, but the free consultation doesn't seem to be a common opportunity where I live - an hour with the attorney cost me $200.
I don't know if it's a regional or primarily large city thing, but the free consultation doesn't seem to be a common opportunity where I live - an hour with the attorney cost me $200.
Hi Doug,
My attorney's rate is several times your attorney's rate, but I pay less because the longest session she and I ever had was 30 minutes and most are closer to 10-15 minutes. E.g., "Attorney, my wife intends to spend $5,000-$20,000 on body enhancements before divorcing me. What should I do to protect my assets?" My attorney was clear that short and to-the-point e-mails are the most cost-effective. At your rate a 10-min response would cost ~$35. Of course, implementing an action plan such as serving her with a financial restraining order like I did to prevent shenanigans may cost another $300. That's money well spent if it actually protects your wife from spending $5,000-$20,000 of shared assets.
Hi Doug,
My attorney's rate is several times your attorney's rate, but I pay less because the longest session she and I ever had was 30 minutes and most are closer to 10-15 minutes. E.g., "Attorney, my wife intends to spend $5,000-$20,000 on body enhancements before divorcing me. What should I do to protect my assets?" My attorney was clear that short and to-the-point e-mails are the most cost-effective. At your rate a 10-min response would cost ~$35. Of course, implementing an action plan such as serving her with a financial restraining order like I did to prevent shenanigans may cost another $300. That's money well spent if it actually protects your wife from spending $5,000-$20,000 of shared assets.
Thanks, Traveler. Something to consider, for sure. From what I read, it sounds like the financial restraining order is a component of the official divorce filing. I could be wrong, but in my current case, we're not even separated yet.
I appreciate the advice!
To update (sort of)...
The drive home from the trip felt a little stilted, with some palpable distance in the car. I think W still had a few angry feelings about how the counseling session played out. Unfortunately, being together for so many hours a day on the mini vacation didn't exactly bolster my detachment efforts. Still, if I had to do it again, I would. May well wind up being the last family trip, and I had plenty of musings to that end, in real time. In a way, I think it helped me appreciate it more.
It has been invaluable going back through this thread and seeing the multiple postings of "it's a marathon, not a sprint" and other lines of that ilk. I'm seemingly mired in a trend of two steps forward, one step back...or even two steps forward, two steps back. Try as I might, I can't seem to muster the level of detachment I feel I should be heading towards. MWD had a line in the MLC chapter of DR that goes something like "and there will be times when, just for a moment, things seem normal again, and these will sustain you." It's hard, folks!
I also tend to get a little stuck on all the good quotes from Ready2Change's threads. Sometimes I get caught between "this is the prevailing wisdom" and "it says to see what works and stick with that." Like, a 180 for me would be acting more emotionally present...but then, I don't want to overdo that and be readily available. I'm an outgoing person, but I did get to a point where I was a little withdrawn and in my own world in the house. I'm toeing that line the best i can while putting as much focus as possible on GAL and doing things with the kids.
Perhaps the toughest internal conflict is questioning what I'm holding onto vs forcing W to be the one to move out whenever that point may arrive. Treading water or "standing"...in some ways, it can feel like an emotionally hollow existence. I apologize for rehashing thoughts I've probably already typed before. Just using the forum to get a few sentiments off my chest.
So, W is (for whatever reason) amped up right now after I said I wasn't going to the next MC session. I said I had "talked about it in IC" and didn't feel it was productive for me at this point in time. There was some contentious yammering about "You're not going to stop me from this divorce" - I guess in response to my comment about not being inclined to vacate the house.
Great. That's just great. Hopefully it was just a MLC mercurial flare-up and things will be tolerable later. It's not the best environment for the kids if hostility reigns.
Like, a 180 for me would be acting more emotionally present...but then, I don't want to overdo that and be readily available.
You can be emotionally present without rescuing her. This comes through listening and validating her feelings.
So, W is (for whatever reason) amped up right now after I said I wasn't going to the next MC session. I said I had "talked about it in IC" and didn't feel it was productive for me at this point in time.
This would have been a good time to show that 180. I am not saying to stick to your decision but you can do that with empathy. "For whatever reason" implies a certain tone and judgment... even if you didn't express it directly... I'm sure you w would have felt it... and to her... that's probably just same ole Doug.
My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.
Hey LH19, I found this quote from you in one of Ready2Change's greatest hits threads. Do you remember if this scenario involved the W moving out? Trying to stick to my two main points, which are "I ain't moving out and I ain't nesting" but man, things feel like they have the potential to suck @ss around here if W's mood keeps deteriorating.
things feel like they have the potential to suck @ss around here if W's mood keeps deteriorating.
A good skill to learn - Don't let W's mood effect your mood....IE your life doesn't have to suck @ss just because of someone else's behavior. Focus on what you have control of.
Doug,
you can expect your W to throw tantrums, it may even seem you are dealing with a 7 year child whos favorite toy has been taken away from him. Prepare for all sort of erratic behaviour, you are in for a ride, trust me.
All of us here are speaking from experience and our stories combined would make an awesome scenario bundle for the Tlilight zone series.
You truly would not believe all the stories we've encountered, frankly I would have not believed it either, had I not gone through it myself.
Brace yourself, the storm is upon you. Be firm, be stron, be a man's man. Take care of yourself, your healthe, phsical and emotional, take care of your children, they will be needing you now more than ever and take care of your job/career. Do not go arouund telling your story to every one, have one or 2 of your closest friends for emotional support.
Read and reread Sandy's rules daily and live them.
Hey LH19, I found this quote from you in one of Ready2Change's greatest hits threads. Do you remember if this scenario involved the W moving out? Trying to stick to my two main points, which are "I ain't moving out and I ain't nesting" but man, things feel like they have the potential to suck @ss around here if W's mood keeps deteriorating.
Lack of self control is the #1 enemy of DB. If self control were easy, no one would smoke, drink, or be overweight. Its very hard, but that's what it takes to turn things around, commitment to being counter-intuitive and fighting your impulses.
Going the other way is the only thing that may effect your W.
I often tell people, the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction.
The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own.
In that case, they have to spend zero time focused on getting away with you and can right away shift into wondering where you've gone. That's what you want.
In terms of her feeling differently -- when you first met she didn't instantly want to marry you, then you got married and she didn't want to leave you, then at some point she did want to leave you. She was stubborn the whole time, made three decisions there and changed her feelings about the first two. That should prove to you that her feelings do change, and despite how she feels now, or what she says now, she may feel and do completely different things in the future. You have hard evidence of that.
The ride is just beginning. She won't be done with you for a long time, nor will you be done with her. Since you have children together you will be intermeshed for years.
Doug, being more emotionally present doesn't mean pressure and pursuit. This is a common mistake LBSs make. "I was emotionally absent during our MR, so in limbo I need to become super-spouse! I need to pursue and pressure. Etc."
As V19 said, you don't need to rescue her to be more emotionally present. And you should NOT use emotional presence as an excuse to break other DBing principles. You let her be the one to initiate contact/interaction. When she does you listen and validate. Be fully emotionally present through the interaction, but then be the one that is busy and needs to end the interaction.
- Let her initiate interactions
- Be emotionally present, leaning on sandi's rules, and listen and validate during the interaction
- Be the one that ends the interaction "I need to be somewhere....."
things feel like they have the potential to suck @ss around here if W's mood keeps deteriorating.
A good skill to learn - Don't let W's mood effect your mood....IE your life doesn't have to suck @ss just because of someone else's behavior. Focus on what you have control of.
Yeah, truer words were never spoken. I'm just not as good at it as I thought. Peaks and valleys, dude.
FWIW, I checked out about 5 books listed in your "Ready2Change 2 years later" thread yesterday. Unfortunately my library didn't have a few of the ones I really had my eye on. Thanks for composing that list and putting it out there.
This would have been a good time to show that 180. I am not saying to stick to your decision but you can do that with empathy. "For whatever reason" implies a certain tone and judgment... even if you didn't express it directly... I'm sure you w would have felt it... and to her... that's probably just same ole Doug.
That's a good point. At this juncture, I'm just trying to get out of the next MC appointment by whatever means possible. Granted, she can't force me into the car, but I'd like for it to stop being a point of contention. I tried saying I wanted to fixate on IC for now, but she seems pretty latched on, thinking the MC is going to help nudge me toward the door (of my own house). The timeline doesn't even make sense anyway, with school starting back up soon, but I guess there's no logic in the wayward mind.
Doug,
you can expect your W to throw tantrums, it may even seem you are dealing with a 7 year child whos favorite toy has been taken away from him. Prepare for all sort of erratic behaviour, you are in for a ride, trust me.
All of us here are speaking from experience and our stories combined would make an awesome scenario bundle for the Tlilight zone series.
You truly would not believe all the stories we've encountered, frankly I would have not believed it either, had I not gone through it myself.
Brace yourself, the storm is upon you. Be firm, be stron, be a man's man. Take care of yourself, your healthe, phsical and emotional, take care of your children, they will be needing you now more than ever and take care of your job/career. Do not go arouund telling your story to every one, have one or 2 of your closest friends for emotional support.
Read and reread Sandy's rules daily and live them.
Thanks, Vapo. Unfortunately for me, I'm finding myself a tad caught up in the overanalysis machine again. It's not as bad as it was a couple months ago, but now I'm dealing with thoughts that W is ramping up a full-court press trying to get me to graciously duck out and start a separation, trial or otherwise. Things seem to have a more volatile feel. The storm is upon me, indeed.
Doug, being more emotionally present doesn't mean pressure and pursuit. This is a common mistake LBSs make. "I was emotionally absent during our MR, so in limbo I need to become super-spouse! I need to pursue and pressure. Etc."
As V19 said, you don't need to rescue her to be more emotionally present. And you should NOT use emotional presence as an excuse to break other DBing principles. You let her be the one to initiate contact/interaction. When she does you listen and validate. Be fully emotionally present through the interaction, but then be the one that is busy and needs to end the interaction.
- Let her initiate interactions
- Be emotionally present, leaning on sandi's rules, and listen and validate during the interaction
- Be the one that ends the interaction "I need to be somewhere....."
Thanks, Steve. I actually identified with several of your pre-180 behaviors in your marriage, particularly the tv-in-another-room-from-the-family thing. I sought a respite from the noise and chaos of so many kids. So, as noted, my initial reaction was to remedy this behavior and "be more available." I have not pursued since coming across DB and this board, but it sometimes feels like a balance for me. I appreciate your clarification and reminder. I've had a lot of slip-ups. Yesterday W got onto me for acting moody and volatile when I got home....which is like the pot calling the kettle black, but whatever.
Lack of self control is the #1 enemy of DB. If self control were easy, no one would smoke, drink, or be overweight. Its very hard, but that's what it takes to turn things around, commitment to being counter-intuitive and fighting your impulses.
Going the other way is the only thing that may effect your W.
I often tell people, the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction.
The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own.
In that case, they have to spend zero time focused on getting away with you and can right away shift into wondering where you've gone. That's what you want.
In terms of her feeling differently -- when you first met she didn't instantly want to marry you, then you got married and she didn't want to leave you, then at some point she did want to leave you. She was stubborn the whole time, made three decisions there and changed her feelings about the first two. That should prove to you that her feelings do change, and despite how she feels now, or what she says now, she may feel and do completely different things in the future. You have hard evidence of that.
The ride is just beginning. She won't be done with you for a long time, nor will you be done with her. Since you have children together you will be intermeshed for years.
Thanks for all the nuggets of wisdom in this post. I guess what I'm stuck on is (yet again) both of us being tied to the house and kids. She doesn't want to be the one to leave...I don't want to be the one to leave.
I almost wonder if BL42's situation would be better - like ripping off a bandaid. I don't doubt that whole process was painful as can be, but from what I recall, his W got TF outta there. Yes, she was the one to go and he claimed the house, but it was certainly decisive. I dunno.
That's a good point. At this juncture, I'm just trying to get out of the next MC appointment by whatever means possible. Granted, she can't force me into the car, but I'd like for it to stop being a point of contention. I tried saying I wanted to fixate on IC for now, but she seems pretty latched on, thinking the MC is going to help nudge me toward the door (of my own house).
Hello Doug,
"Trying to get out of MC" sounds co-dependent. It invites attempts to manipulate you. A firm "No" is less contentious. Say it once, then stop talking. An argument requires two people.
If it helps, imagine your son has asked for something outlandish--like driving your car at age 6. He really wants to. It's important to him after watching Lightning McQueen. After you say no, he's angry and sad. Level 1: Can you be firm with your decision and neither get "volatile" nor hand him the car keys? Level 2: Can you listen and validate how he expressed he feels without making light of him, nor ever entertaining the notion of choosing a different outcome?
I guess what I'm stuck on is (yet again) both of us being tied to the house and kids. She doesn't want to be the one to leave...I don't want to be the one to leave.
My EXW stuck around with one foot on the door for two and a half years. I am divorced, still alive and living a great life.
I almost wonder if BL42's situation would be better - like ripping off a bandaid. I don't doubt that whole process was painful as can be, but from what I recall, his W got TF outta there. Yes, she was the one to go and he claimed the house, but it was certainly decisive. I dunno.
BL's EXW was out of there quick, he is divorced, still alive and living a great life.
Do you see the theme here Doug?
That's a good point. At this juncture, I'm just trying to get out of the next MC appointment by whatever means possible. Granted, she can't force me into the car, but I'd like for it to stop being a point of contention. I tried saying I wanted to fixate on IC for now, but she seems pretty latched on, thinking the MC is going to help nudge me toward the door (of my own house).
Hello Doug,
"Trying to get out of MC" sounds co-dependent. It invites attempts to manipulate you. A firm "No" is less contentious. Say it once, then stop talking. An argument requires two people.
If it helps, imagine your son has asked for something outlandish--like driving your car at age 6. He really wants to. It's important to him after watching Lightning McQueen. After you say no, he's angry and sad. Level 1: Can you be firm with your decision and neither get "volatile" nor hand him the car keys? Level 2: Can you listen and validate how he expressed he feels without making light of him, nor ever entertaining the notion of choosing a different outcome?
Thank you for pointing out the co-dependent slant of my wording. You aren't wrong.
I will do my best to validate and stay even-keeled if and when the conversation comes back up. Good tip.
My EXW stuck around with one foot on the door for two and a half years. I am divorced, still alive and living a great life.
Interesting. Would you mind sharing what those two and a half years were like? Was it a SSM? Was it torture being around her?
BL's EXW was out of there quick, he is divorced, still alive and living a great life.
Do you see the theme here Doug?
Yes, I do see the theme. SteveLW advised getting over one's fear of D and things would get easier after that. Still working on it, but hopefully making incremental progress.
Interesting. Would you mind sharing what those two and a half years were like? Was it a SSM? Was it torture being around her?
So the two and a half years was brutal when I thought I could control the outcome. Meaning 180s to show her I had changed in areas I thought I had slacked in. Once I accepted I couldn't change her mind it wasn't that bad. Nah we actually had sex up until 6 days before she left. As far a WWs go she wasn't that bad to be around. I don't think she hates/hated me she just wanted to feel the butterflies again. At least that is what she told me.
Doug I am not going to lie your W has check out and will probably not be checking back in anytime soon. Either way you will survive and your life will be 10,000 times better than it is at this moment.
I was on a similar 2.5 year timeline from BD to D. Things were very tense until my W got the separation agreement signed and we had agreed on nesting. I was DBing and eventually her anger sub-sided. In retrospect, D was inevitable for us and she would never get the feelings like she wanted. Our relationship and interaction improved and we still had sex, but Recon was never really on the table. Nesting initially for a year worked because we both had free places to stay. Until you guys get something worked out its likely to be tense. Just always do what's good for you and the kids. Nesting isn't ideal, but I would not move out like she initially asked. Her mind was in a strange place and she would do anything to get away if that makes sense. Very tense for her emotionally. Eventually, W got her own place and I stayed, but we had to separate finances then. I wanted to hold that off until the end so she didn't know how much money she was needing. Anyways...for me I can't see living with someone that wants to leave, but just do what is best for you and the kids.
In retrospect, D was inevitable for us and she would never get the feelings like she wanted.
Number one reason that men in long-term marriages end up here.
Interesting. Would you mind sharing what those two and a half years were like? Was it a SSM? Was it torture being around her?
So the two and a half years was brutal when I thought I could control the outcome. Meaning 180s to show her I had changed in areas I thought I had slacked in. Once I accepted I couldn't change her mind it wasn't that bad. Nah we actually had sex up until 6 days before she left. As far a WWs go she wasn't that bad to be around. I don't think she hates/hated me she just wanted to feel the butterflies again. At least that is what she told me.
Doug I am not going to lie your W has check out and will probably not be checking back in anytime soon. Either way you will survive and your life will be 10,000 times better than it is at this moment.
Thanks, LH19. I really appreciate your input, especially in light of the similarities I can identify between your situation and mine. Do you happen to have a thread detailing how things transpired for you?
I notice in your signature you’ve been married 16 years. Is that to your second W? Did your 2.5 years of limbo occur in the 1990’s?
When things first began unfolding (more like unraveling) for me, before I had read DR or came to this board, I would use daily interactions with the W and things like frequency of sex to say to myself, “Hey- we’re knocking boots with gusto! How bad can things be?” Obviously it helps situate things for me to read your account, that the sex was there but the die had already been cast.
Did you & your ex-wife realize things were going to drag for as long as they did, or is that just how it wound up happening? Were there kids in the household? Did she pressure you to be the one to move out?
I appreciate it.
Do you happen to have a thread detailing how things transpired for you?
My thread was at the tail end of my sitch right before my EW filed. Once she filed I pretty much stopped on my own thread.
I notice in your signature you’ve been married 16 years. Is that to your second W? Did your 2.5 years of limbo occur in the 1990’s?
No just not updated. My sitch started 2014 and D was final 2018.
When things first began unfolding (more like unraveling) for me, before I had read DR or came to this board, I would use daily interactions with the W and things like frequency of sex to say to myself, “Hey- we’re knocking boots with gusto! How bad can things be?”
Yep for sure. I did for awhile and would touch the hot stove and realized nothing changed.
Did you & your ex-wife realize things were going to drag for as long as they did, or is that just how it wound up happening?
Well I busted up her first EA and than she coasted for another year and a half until what I now believe she found her second EA probably PA. Then we lived together for over a year after she filed.
Were there kids in the household?
Yeah the kids didn't know right up to when she was ready to move out. We still ate dinner together and held a decent front though I am sure they knew something was up.
Did she pressure you to be the one to move out?
She wanted to legally separate and nest. I opted to D and don't regret it for a second. Life with someone who wants out is the most horrible situation I have ever been in to date.
I don't regret fighting for my family but I do regret trying to convince her to stay in my life if that makes sense?
I was on a similar 2.5 year timeline from BD to D. Things were very tense until my W got the separation agreement signed and we had agreed on nesting. I was DBing and eventually her anger sub-sided. In retrospect, D was inevitable for us and she would never get the feelings like she wanted. Our relationship and interaction improved and we still had sex, but Recon was never really on the table. Nesting initially for a year worked because we both had free places to stay. Until you guys get something worked out its likely to be tense. Just always do what's good for you and the kids. Nesting isn't ideal, but I would not move out like she initially asked. Her mind was in a strange place and she would do anything to get away if that makes sense. Very tense for her emotionally. Eventually, W got her own place and I stayed, but we had to separate finances then. I wanted to hold that off until the end so she didn't know how much money she was needing. Anyways...for me I can't see living with someone that wants to leave, but just do what is best for you and the kids.
Thanks, Greenman. I hope to stay away from nesting although it feels like W may want to expedite the timeline for getting out. Who knows for sure. She has a decent existence now with me more or less enabling her to eat cake while things shake out. Between your post and LH19’s, I’m starting to see a template for how my situation may play out. You’re both right - it’s not fun living with someone who wants out, though as of this moment, it’s best for the kids & W doesn’t have an exit strategy.
A few thoughts for you Doug:
Nesting - I considered it at first but realized pretty quick it is not the way the go. I think part of it is just delaying the inevitable to an extent. Don't agree to it. She can move out if she wants space. Don't move out. Stay in the MB come hell or high water during the IHS. And hell may come knocking. Don't leave man.
MC - stop going. It's not going to help right now. Tell W you don't think it will help right now if she wants to know why you decline. Leave it at that. No R talks. STFU.
IC - keep going. I would not be talking to your W about what is discussed in IC or that you are even going to IC. It's for you, not her. STFU.
Your W has been in an EA/PA for a year or longer. You don't think you caught it on Day 1 right? First evidence November '21 means it started much earlier in all likelihood. Still going strong you say?
About getting caught up in the "I'm not going to be the one to end the MR/file D/etc." syndrome. Look I get this is a DB site. Maybe some feel better years later, being able to say "hey I wasn't the one to end it..." "I was the one who tried..." I get it. I didn't file. There was no EA/PA as far as I knew and I was digging. I had a WAW. It took her about 5 months to file after BD. She said several times "we need to file" and I said I wasn't filing anything, go ahead and file if you want. I moved at my pace during the whole process. I've got my thoughts re filing in an EA/PA sitch but they wouldn't exactly be in line with DBing per se.
Strength is mental toughness and emotional control. Establishing and enforcing boundaries. Having a plan and executing. Being decisive. Not accepting less than what you believe you deserve or want. Self-evaluating and improving where necessary. Answering the call to adventure. It is defined by your actions in every instance in life you encounter.
Read Sandi's Rules. It's a long list I know. Look, what can really help you achieve or comply with them, at least significantly, is to focus on one thing - GAL. As Steve would say, you are "BUSY BUSY BUSY". If you are in full-on GAL mode, you will not have much time with or exposure to W to torpedo yourself with self-inflicted Rule violations. But remember GAL is for YOU. So are 180's. These changes are not to win W back and if you have that mindset she is likely to sniff it out quick. If you have the mindset of "showing off" your 180's or GAL to the W, she'll probably know it's just tactics. You truly have to do these things for YOU and NGAF whether she even notices. You can't be looking to her for approval of what the New Doug is doing. There is much hand-wringing about "but if we're not living together how will she ever see my 180's!!??" You have to get to the place where you don't care. You're working on you, not her.
I see you've got some stuff about a joint checking acct., boob job, who gets the house, etc. You have got to get with a L and get a game plan together. How do you define yourself? Would you say you are pretty intelligent? Smart guys get with a L and game plan based on the law and the details of their sitch. Get two steps ahead of W , don't be lagging my friend.
Hang in there buddy.
Please start a new thread and link your threads together.
Between your post and LH19’s, I’m starting to see a template for how my situation may play out.
Those are certainly possible--trying to stand is no guarantee of reconciliation. Study the situations of members who got to reconciliation as well if that's your goal. What worked? What didn't?
She has a decent existence now with me more or less enabling her to eat cake
To me, "cake-eating" is when a wayward spouse gets some of their physical and emotional needs met by their OW/OM, while some of their other emotional, sometimes physical, and usually financial needs are being met by their betrayed spouse, without condition or consequence. When this condition is reached, there is really no incentive for the adulterous spouse to stop their infidelity, because they are "having their cake, and eating it, too."
<Some> are just plain "afraid to make her/him mad," and are not really feeling good at all about what's being done to them.
It's helpful to consider what cake eating is. The above's a decent working definition. Consider all the ways you allow cake-eating, especially where you're nicing her instead of getting a fair trade.