I'm Back after 1st DB (5)

[Josh71]

Previous Thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2933870&page=10

[Traveler]

Let her be as angry as she wants. Show her you can "handle" her emotions. You stay calm and listen. Switch your thought process from arguing or justifying to She wants to be heard and understood.

Yes, if you can adopt this when you’d naturally avoid, communication will doubtless improve between you and your STBXW.

continues to attempt to break boundaries (talking about finances in person instead of email)

The cool thing about boundaries—boundaries only control you—is nobody can break them but you. If your boundary is, “All my communication to her about the divorce will be by email” she’s free to message you any way she wants—text, voicemail, email, in-person—and none of it prevents you from sticking to your boundary to only communicate to her about it via email.

[SteveLW]

TT, how is GAL going?

[Josh71]

TT, how is GAL going?

Pretty good. Gym, seeing friends, hanging with the kids, and even taking some online courses on surviving the D. Some nights I just retire to my room and read or play some video games. The only thing I haven't done is pick up my guitar, but with so many other distractions, I haven't really had the time. This Friday I'm off to a big sports game with a friend who has risen to be the most supportive and caring friend I've ever had. I wish I connected with him in this way years earlier.

Today I found a great L. Third time lucky. Supportive, empathetic to fathers, and reasonably priced. She mapped out a clear path for me, with answers for all the weasel financial things my STBXW wants to throw at me. I also got great advice for negotiating a parenting plan. We even discussed contingency options if STBXW becomes particularly stubborn, or if mediation fails.

I can see the anger reducing on the other side, and the emails are starting to be more productive. Whether that lasts or not, I don't care because I really feel I'm in a good place. With the legal and emotional support I have now, I feel I have a clear plan for my future.

[PeterB]

Let her be as angry as she wants. Show her you can "handle" her emotions. You stay calm and listen. Switch your thought process from arguing or justifying to She wants to be heard and understood.

Don't want to hijack TT180's thread but I think this is great advice for him or for anybody. We often get into situations where this is required. I have entirely stopped arguing or justifying. Making her feel heard is a subtle skill however, as disrespect needs to be identified on-time and our boundaries need to be maintained.

Just trying to hold up a mirror of what "normal" behavior would look like.

Thanks. It takes some slo-mo but we have to do this analysis (later if not in real-time) as to what is normal / reasonable and how far away from normal, the behaviors were. This is important when a R is on the downward spiral and when leading to or during piecing. However, in general we cannot let abnormal behavior affect us - this is a test of detachment imho.

[Josh71]

PeterB, this is one point I need to improve on. I still let her disrespect me. I don't validate, or engage, but I don't call it out. It seems to me her only way to get power.

Otherwise, I can say I've not engaged with her s**t for at least six weeks now.

[PeterB]

PeterB, this is one point I need to improve on. I still let her disrespect me. I don't validate, or engage, but I don't call it out. It seems to me her only way to get power.

Otherwise, I can say I've not engaged with her s**t for at least six weeks now.

If you have not engaged then that's great. I think you cannot prevent her from disrespecting you. You can only set and enforce boundaries (requires real time identification of disrespect). That may reduce her tendency to disrespect. Based on your earlier statement pasted below:

I can see the anger reducing on the other side, and the emails are starting to be more productive.

... your efforts are probably working.

[Traveler]

Peter says it well. You can’t stop her from “disrespecting you”. You only control how you react. Do you expend energy and escalate by arguing with her (attached behavior) or do you hang up, leave the room, ignore her (detached behavior)?

There may be situations in which you need to engage, but those are probably few and far between.

[Josh71]

Peter says it well. You can’t stop her from “disrespecting you”. You only control how you react. Do you expend energy and escalate by arguing with her (attached behavior) or do you hang up, leave the room, ignore her (detached behavior)?

The latter. I've wasted no energy in the last 6 weeks on any escalation. In fact, since day one. I've not escalated with anger. I only made one mistake where I knew if I talked about a subject, she'd go off. And she did. But certainly I expend no energy on escalation. The improvement I have is letting some things slide. But I've gotten better, and recently I've made some pretty assertive boundaries, much to her surprise.

[Josh71]

I'm sure this is a come up many times on the boards but I do want to get an opinion. An angry WW certainly exhibits narcissistic behavior, and right now in my sitch, ignoring me seems to be the only power left to her. Does anyone have any experience of a true narsasisst? What I'm trying to say is I found this great definition on quora that explains what is a covert or vulnerable narcissist and it fits my WW to the tee. I'm going to mediation for a parenting plan, so it'll be interesting to see if these tendencies play out. It explains so well why we can't negotiate and how she goes off when criticized. I feel I've been duped the entire marriage.

Look, I get it that I'm guilty of rewriting history, but when I sort through what I was missing all these years, and the struggles, it just seems to make total sense that a covert narcissist would love a nice guy like me to control. And avoiding the conflict delays the outbursts and preserves her self-esteem.

I wonder if it's really healthy for me to have this reflection, or if I should focus on moving on, and ensuring I don't fall for this again in the future.

I told my L if the parenting plan negotiations go poorly, or shows that she really doesn't negotiate (justifies) it will be L to L for the rest of the D journey.

Just some random thoughts for the day. Her overt abuse is gone, the games are now less frequent and intense.

[OnlyBent]

TT, no doubt we’ve all been there but trying to understand things will not change your situation. She’s a narcissist, she’s not a narcissist, how does either of those options change where you’re at?

Focus on what’s important mate, and it’s not her.

[LH19]

Does she have narcissistic traits? Probably. Is she a narcissist? Unlikely, they make up less than 4% of the population. It’s very popular for the LBS to label the WW a narcissist or in MLC. Nothing to see here and move on.

[Josh71]

BL/OnlyBent, I get your points. It's just frustrating to deal with all the blocks, arrogance, and entitlement on an almost daily basis. Just looking for advice, but it seems every time I ask for advice, it's the same answer Focus on self, focus on kids, move on.

[SteveLW]

The reason the advice is to focus on self, focus on kids, and start looking forward to moving your life forward, with or without her is because........what choice do you have?

I know you know this, but it is important to rehear these things: it takes two committed spouses to make a marriage. It only takes 1 uncommitted spouse to make a divorce. And sense you have no control over her, you have no control over whether or not you end up divorced. It is not what we want to hear or even acknowledge, but it is a cold, hard truth. It is immutable. The fact is that if the WAS wants to continue to divorce there is nothing the LBS can do to stop it.

The only choice the LBS has left is to focus on themselves (and their kids if they are a parent), remove all pressure and pursuit, and look to moving their life forward. This is why the advice keeps coming back to this. Yes, it is difficult to do. Yes, it is at times frustrating that there isn't more the LBS can do. Yes, it is scary to face the lack of control you have over this aspect of your life.

But when it is all said and done, is there really any other option for the LBS? They can continue to bash their head against a brickwall, and hope it results in something positive. Or they can assume that their WAS is telling them the truth, that it is really over, and start moving their life forward with that assumption.

The good news is that by doing that, sometimes....NOT ALWAYS BUT SOMETIMES, this makes the LBS look attractive again to the WAS. After all, the WAS expects the LBS to hold on for dear life, to try to change their mind, to continue to win them back. And when the LBS flips that script and suddenly seems onboard with ending things, seems almost excited to move on with a new chapter in their life, and begins to embrace the change even though it isn't what they want, the WAS started to wonder why. They get interested in what the LBS is doing. They see the LBS in IC, they see the LBS out getting a life, they feel a loss of control over the LBS and their emotions, and they start to second guess what they are doing. Again, lots of WASs are dead set on leaving their marriage and nothing will deter that. But in some of them, the LBS following this path will cause the WAS to become interested again.

Tough, you seem to struggle a bit with the advice coming back to "Focus on self, focus on kids, move on." What are your thoughts on alternatives to this approach?

[Josh71]

Steve,

I don't have any alternatives to your approach. I'm clear on why and what needs to be done. I just lose a bit of focus now and then when STBXW complicates, blocks, frustrates, etc. I'm also nervous because I don't fully trust where she is going with D. In actual fact though, I've been supportive of moving forward some aspects of my upcoming D. I've proactively sought out mediation with someone we agree on, we will talk about a parenting plan in two weeks, and I'm about to finalise a L to kick off a financial settlement that is fair. After the parenting plan is in place, I'm going to propose we start the selling process of our house EARLIER, rather than later. Because I need my space now, not in 7 months.

I admit I'm hard on myself, frustrated that for once I understand why the R failed, but not able to work on that. But that's not entirely true. I've gotten a deeper friendship with a close friend. We have very similar upbringings and it's a connection I've never had before. It's validating to hear him say that I'm visibly happier. Happier because it's been a VERY long time since I've hade any sort of plan in my life. Happier because I know where I want to go and how to do it. It's just the trees are blocking my view of the forest.

[Josh71]

Need some advice. I'm tired of STBXW arguing over minute details of property settlement that she doesn't understand. I'm planning to send this:

STBXW,

These circular conversations on property settlement are unproductive. It's been almost a month with practically no resolution or agreement. I am not willing to have any more dialogue on points of Family Law as this is the domain of lawyers. I have no desire to engage any further in these types of conversations.

Percentages absolutely require a complete financial picture. As such, I will be hiring an accountant or lawyer or both to draft up a proforma settlement based on all the information you and I have provided. Any funds spent to prepare this document will be clearly labelled. In the absence of your clear direction, I will take a best effort approach to proposing how assets are to be allocated. I will then share with you the document when it is completed. At that point we can revise based on your input because we will then be having a proper and informed financial conversation. Eventually this needs to be done, so it is not wasted effort, the details can always be updated closer to final settlement. I expect this could take months to prepare given the complexity of transactions, the properties involved, and paperwork required.

Thoughts?

[Valeska19]

Don't engage. Let your lawyer handle it.

[Josh71]

Ooh. Awkward! I'm still in IHS. It does avoid me from all of that stuff.

[Traveler]

I wouldn't send that. If you can't handle negotiation with her, leave it to the mediation service or your attorney. Don't send pointless, provocative e-mails.

[Traveler]

I'm tired of STBXW arguing over minute details of property settlement. These circular conversations on property settlement are unproductive. It's been almost a month with practically no resolution or agreement. I have no desire to engage any further in these types of conversations.. as this is the domain of lawyers.

Save emoting about your feelings for us or your personal journal.

I am not willing to have any more dialogue on points of Family Law

This is worth considering. Better than telling her you don't want to keep negotiating directly, would be telling her where her negotiations should continue, "I've decided not to negotiate directly. Please direct future messages to <mediation service> or <my attorney>."

Percentages absolutely require a complete financial picture. As such, I will be hiring an accountant or lawyer or both to draft up a proforma settlement based on all the information you and I have provided. Any funds spent to prepare this document will be clearly labelled. In the absence of your clear direction, I will take a best effort approach to proposing how assets are to be allocated. I will then share with you the document when it is completed. At that point we can revise based on your input because we will then be having a proper and informed financial conversation. Eventually this needs to be done, so it is not wasted effort, the details can always be updated closer to final settlement. I expect this could take months to prepare given the complexity of transactions, the properties involved, and paperwork required.

To quote Nike, "Just DO It!"--hire that mediation service or attorney to wrap this up! You've been talking about that for weeks. That should be the end of any circular negotiations.

[Josh71]

I'm waiting for L to come back with pricing and then I'll kick things off. Mediation is not an option until L prepares the numbers.

Traveler, I like your line.

[SteveLW]

toughtimes, I get the spiraling. We all were there once. That is why detachment is money. Ever see water roll off of ducks back? That is what you want to get to with your WAW's words and deeds. That they roll off your back like water off a duck. No effect. That seems to be the last place you are struggling. When she, in your words, "complicates, blocks, frustrates, etc." That's what WWs do! We all have stories about our WSs and how they were able to complicate, block and frustrate us. Overtime we got better at not letting them complicate, block and frustrate us. Emotional detachment is a state of mind. It takes work to get there. It won't always be 100%, but once you get it into the high 80%s towards the mid 90%s, life becomes a lot easier. So keep working on your detachment!

[BL42]

toughtimes180,

Just looking for advice, but it seems every time I ask for advice, it's the same answer Focus on self, focus on kids, move on.

The advice posters give reflect the updates you provide. If you're frustrated about the repetitive nature, consider why that may be. Typically it's an area the LBS is stuck on and needs to address.

I just lose a bit of focus now and then when STBXW complicates, blocks, frustrates, etc.

Your STBXW doesn't have the power to complicate, block, and frustrate you unless you allow it. Be a person of strength. You know your purpose and goals; nothing phases you. Be cool, calm, and collected. Don't let her actions impact you.

I'm also nervous because I don't fully trust where she is going with D.

You don't need to fully trust her. In fact, you shouldn't. Try to get to a place where you don't care what she does. Flip the power and determine what YOU want, and pursue that.

Don't engage. Let your lawyer handle it.

I wouldn't send that. If you can't handle negotiation with her, leave it to the mediation service or your attorney. Don't send pointless, provocative e-mails.

I agree w/Valeska19 & Traveler. Don't send that note.

Too many words; just take action. If you want to have a professional draft up a proposal, that's certainly your right, just do it. No need to explain all the reasoning to STBXW. And btw...that proposal does not set in stone the outcome. Your STBWX has every right to reject it. Ultimately you'll both need to agree to a settlement or go to trial.

Also, I strongly recommend re-reading the language you use. Not sure if others agree, but to me it comes off as very impatient, controlling, patronizing, and condescending. Is this typical of your communication and interactions with STBXW? If so, you might discuss with IC or work on a 180 there on listening and empathizing vs. "telling" or "commanding".

I agree w/others you should drop the direct settlement discussions w/STBXW and work through an L.

[Josh71]

Hi BL42,

This isn't my typical language. Usually I'm indirect, and passive. It is my attempt to be more assertive and communicate directly. What I say here on the boards is my natural style. This is why I wanted to run it here as its not my usual way.

I'm not sending anything for at least a few days. I'm going to ring L today to find out why they are taking so long, and then just use travelers line. This is my power, I'm pursuing the knowledge and L that I need.

As a positive sign, and it doesn't mean much, I had one conflict, abuse free day today. According to my journal, that's one day of 42!

[Josh71]

Pretty rough week. STBXW raged when I told her financial conversations are now through lawyers. That's fine, I just ignore the follow up emails. Compounding this, I called her out on a violent outburst where she pushed stuff off the table and kicked some bags on the floor. In front of S8. You can imagine the denial and anger. Proves to me so much of our relationship had gaslighting.

She went away with D11 and S8 for a city get away. I had awesome time with D1 for 24 hours. It validated just how awesome it is with STBXW away and how competent I am despite what she says. This will be good for mediation.

I'm also suspicious she emailed me a sensible financial proposal to get us half way. Sell the house, split 40%, 20% goes to other financial commitments, we sort out final settlement later. I haven't floated this with L yet, but I like the idea of moving out quickly and having 75% of settlement cash. The reason I'm suspicious is this came after the comment about an L.

I also have another question about validation. I'm not doing it often with her, but when I do, I'd like to think that I keep it simple. She smsed me that S8 was sick in the hotel and soiled the bed. I just responded that must have been hard. I get an angry reply that I don't want your sympathy, I'm just telling you.

Part of me wants to stay true to me and validate regardless of response. Definately I do more at work and with friends. The other part of me wants to just drop it and stay business like. Thoughts?

[LH19]

Drop it and stay businesslike.

[Traveler]

S8 was sick in the hotel and soiled the bed. I just responded that must have been hard.

That wasn't validation--your STBXW did not express any feelings. Examples of expressing feelings. "I'm SO exhausted. XW just soiled the bed. Again. It's 2am." "S8 soiled the bed. I'm pi$$ed! Why am I ALWAYS the one cleaning up their bodily fluids?!"

STBXW raged

You identified a feeling! This was an opportunity to validate.

Part of me wants to stay true to me and validate regardless of response. Definately I do more at work and with friends. The other part of me wants to just drop it and stay business like. Thoughts?

I've shared them with you before. If you want to get good at validation, practice and share here what you hear, your reply, and how they responded. You can do this for friends and family, too. If you work at it you can become good relatively quickly.

[BL42]

I'm also suspicious she emailed me a sensible financial proposal to get us half way. Sell the house, split 40%, 20% goes to other financial commitments, we sort out final settlement later. I haven't floated this with L yet, but I like the idea of moving out quickly and having 75% of settlement cash. The reason I'm suspicious is this came after the comment about an L.

Review any proposal - suspicious or not - with your L. If you're comfortable with it and L thinks it's a good deal, take it. If L thinks it's a bad deal, dismiss it.

She smsed me that S8 was sick in the hotel and soiled the bed. I just responded that must have been hard. I get an angry reply that I don't want your sympathy, I'm just telling you.

Your response seems focused on her feelings instead of your son. Time to start thinking primarily as a father and not a husband. Instead of "that must have been hard [for STBXW]" perhaps "Poor guy. Hope S8 feels better tomorrow."

[Josh71]

I got a lot to learn still

Thanks everyone. Yeah, focus as father. And validate ONLY if there is a particular feeling identified.

[SteveLW]

toughtimes, I would stick to the texting rules of LRT:

If she texts you a statement, do not respond. If she asks a a questions, answer in your own time (not right away) and with as few words as possible. Yes or no questions, get yes or no answers. This will save you a lot of headaches. She may get angry when you do not respond to her statements.....but then she is angry anyway!

As far as the emails settlement, do not respond until you have your lawyer look it over. Stick to your guns on the lawyers handling the details. This was her way of getting you to cave.

Did your marriage have a history of you cowtowing to her? If she didn't like something she threw a little fit and got her way? It sounds like she has been trained by you to use gaslighting, anger, and just generally acting like a spoiled brat to get her way.

[Josh71]

SteveLW,

Spot on. Yes, it's a history of cow towing, and in extreme cases, tantrums, silent treatment, and the stare. Which triggers my avoidance. A lot of reflection has made me realise how bad it was, and her manipulation to frame those confrontations back on me. And since BD2, that was my 180. I am doing none of that. I'm aware that all her reactions relate to the loss of control, and that her fantasy separation isn't happening.

The mistake I'm making is engaging still. I reread the LRT, and yeah, still too much contact.

Yesterday I had the opportunity to spend time with D1 while the others had a city trip. Not only was it quality bonding time, it showed me how calm and easier parenting is without STBXW around. Plus I had some much needed self-care. And the bonus, if STBXW tries to claim in mediation I can't look after a one year old, the proof is fresh. It was sad that I got no details on the fun they had. But I'll forever cherish that day with D1.

All said, I'm in great shape. L will start the process, including responses to her rediculous demands. It's settlement on my terms. Once I have a parenting plan, I'm immediately out the house.

In IC, my P said of all his clients in my sitch, I'm in the best state. I'm taking back the power and emotionally healthy. He said each time I see him, I'm changing. I attribute a lot of that to this forum. DB principles work. And they have worked both times for me. In BD1 it won me back W. In BD2 it is saving my sanity and putting me on a healthy path forward.

[PeterB]

Yesterday I had the opportunity to spend time with D1 while the others had a city trip. Not only was it quality bonding time, it showed me how calm and easier parenting is without STBXW around.

I also felt the similar, almost liberating when she left for her fateful trip. She started her A during the trip, BD'd one month after she returned, and I found out about A shortly after.

In IC, my P said of all his clients in my sitch, I'm in the best state. I'm taking back the power and emotionally healthy. He said each time I see him, I'm changing. I attribute a lot of that to this forum. DB principles work. And they have worked both times for me. In BD1 it won me back W. In BD2 it is saving my sanity and putting me on a healthy path forward.

You are doing amazing. Kudos to this board.

[Josh71]

PeterB,

Trust me, these methods seem cruel and hard, but they work. You just need to get over the fear. I didn't kick STBXW out of the master bedroom this time. I was still in shock, and didn't think, and just said I'm putting a bed in my office. In retrospect it worked for me. My office, my bed, a private door to come and go as I please. I don't think forcing her to move out, in front of the kids, would have changed anything, other than having to let the kids know earlier. She has made up her mind, and despite her protests, I know this is really it. But in my first BD1, these tactics did work and she came around in a couple of months.

Follow the advice here and you will have one of two great outcomes: reconciliation in a healthy way that addresses the underlying issues, or separation in a healthy way where you can be you and live the life you deserve.

It's a win/win.

[Josh71]

I finally got L to engage STBXW. She had a little protest on sms asking if it was a mistake, why are they asking for this information. I just replied "no mistake. You can ask any questions to them directly."

I guess she gets it, the communication is now very minimal, I don't get much emotion back. I'd go so far to say almost pleasant, definitely tolerable.

I have mediation for a Parenting Plan this weekend. It'll be the true test to see if publicly she will negotiate, or if she'll be as unreasonable as she has been in the last two months. Once I know what I'm looking at there, I will immediately hit rental listings for a unit and move out asap.

[PeterB]

I have mediation for a Parenting Plan this weekend. It'll be the true test to see if publicly she will negotiate, or if she'll be as unreasonable as she has been in the last two months. Once I know what I'm looking at there, I will immediately hit rental listings for a unit and move out asap.

Before you move out, get an OK from your L. Do not reveal to your STBXW or her L that you may move out. Check if moving out can negatively impact your custody and parenting expectations. Check if a 'separation agreement' is appropriate.

[BL42]

I finally got L to engage STBXW.

What does this mean exactly? Did you file for D? What is your L reaching out to STBXW about?

I have mediation for a Parenting Plan this weekend.

Do you understand your rights in terms of custody? Do you have a target for what you want?

[Drh2001]

SteveLW,

If the WW was of previously good character and had good morals, is it more likely that they will come back at some point?

[LH19]

If the WW was of previously good character and had good morals, is it more likely that they will come back at some point?

IMO Maybe and then again maybe not.

The two biggest determinants are circumstances in their current life. Does OM dump them? If so, how do they like being single? Do they find someone else?

and

Has the LBS changed? Obviously they weren't happy the first time around. What would be different?

[Drh2001]

LH19,

Food for thought. If the LBS has made 180s how would the WW know about it?

That's why Sandy said timing is so important.

[LH19]

Food for thought. If the LBS has made 180s how would the WW know about it?

Word of mouth. Kids. Possibly social media. What 180s have you made?

That's why Sandy said timing is so important.

Timing is important right after bomb drop. If I remember correctly your exw was bringing dates back to your house? You needed strength there.

Drh I wouldn't wait on your ex. Become the man you want to be and move forward. If she ever looks back you can make a decision at that time.

[Drh2001]

180s

building a gym in my basement - though I need to use it more
building a pandemic era vegetable plot in my back yard
changing attitude
going dark with WW - no communication unless necessary and only using a calendar app on phone
doing more with the kids
starting graduate degree to eventually become a teacher

[LH19]

[quote=Drh2001] building a gym in my basement - though I need to use it more

Yep Gyms are only as good as their use

building a pandemic era vegetable plot in my back yard

WTF is that?

changing attitude

So what attitude do you have now?

going dark with WW - no communication unless necessary and only using a calendar app on phone

I wouldn't really say this is a 180

doing more with the kids

Great!

starting graduate degree to eventually become a teacher

Nice!

Seems like you may have some room to grow here.

[SteveLW]

SteveLW,

If the WW was of previously good character and had good morals, is it more likely that they will come back at some point?

No telling. This is why I hate the term "Midlife Crisis". It could be a permanent change. Or it could be a change that last so long it doesn't matter if eventually she will come back because the LBH as already moved forward past ever being open to an R with her again. Lots of WWs never change back into who they were before. I do think, and have stated, that there is a high likelihood, if they live long enough, that they will regret their choice enough to want to try to fix it and get back with the LBH, but the LBH should not ever count on that occurring during their lifetime. I have known a handful of WASs that after their LBS passed away years later have lamented the fact that they ever left their marriage. But of course, by then it is too late.

All I can say is move your life forward, and if you ever come to that bridge you can decide whether or not to cross it then.

[Drh2001]

Last year I built a 20 * 16 enclosure with individual veggie plots. It was a pandemic project since I worked remotely and didn't get much chance to go out.

I used to have a greenhouse at the bottom of the yard but it always flooded when it rained so I decided to start over.

[Drh2001]

SteveLW,

If the WW was of previously good character and had good morals, is it more likely that they will come back at some point?

No telling. This is why I hate the term "Midlife Crisis". It could be a permanent change. Or it could be a change that last so long it doesn't matter if eventually she will come back because the LBH as already moved forward past ever being open to an R with her again. Lots of WWs never change back into who they were before. I do think, and have stated, that there is a high likelihood, if they live long enough, that they will regret their choice enough to want to try to fix it and get back with the LBH, but the LBH should not ever count on that occurring during their lifetime. I have known a handful of WASs that after their LBS passed away years later have lamented the fact that they ever left their marriage. But of course, by then it is too late.

All I can say is move your life forward, and if you ever come to that bridge you can decide whether or not to cross it then.

Interesting - we're both the same age - mid 40s. I suppose she's at the age where she's almost about to go through menopause.

There is still the same defiance and bad attitude that wasn't previously there prior to all this. She was raised with Christian principles.

[Drh2001]

A friend of hers encouraged her to ask me for an open marriage. I said no. But this friend was also cheating on her husband with a married man of four kids.

She divorced her husband, sold the home to buy him out and moved elsewhere. It was her who told my then wife "it's not cheating if you tell him you're separated."

Last year, my ex wife invited her to my daughter's sweet 16 and lo and behold, she turned up with her exhusband who is now back with her.

My relative told me that my ex WW is now the only member of the "leave your husband behind club."

[LH19]

Last year, my ex wife invited her to my daughter's sweet 16 and lo and behold, she turned up with her exhusband who is now back with her.

If he took her back to easy you can bet that is more than likely going to happen again.

[SteveLW]

A friend of hers encouraged her to ask me for an open marriage. I said no. But this friend was also cheating on her husband with a married man of four kids.

She divorced her husband, sold the home to buy him out and moved elsewhere. It was her who told my then wife "it's not cheating if you tell him you're separated."

Last year, my ex wife invited her to my daughter's sweet 16 and lo and behold, she turned up with her exhusband who is now back with her.

My relative told me that my ex WW is now the only member of the "leave your husband behind club."

Very common tale. Both with a friend doing the same thing informing the WW to do similar. And then an ex-WW going back to a husband after having destroyed lives or helping others to destroy lives. Which is why we tell LBSs that you cannot control others so focus on yourself.

[Josh71]

So back to me

The L is contacting STBXW because her view of financial settlement isn't realistic. I've a month of back on forth on stupid nuances of Family Law. It shut her up.

With the upcoming Parenting Plan, she's angry at so many things. At the request of the mediator we emailed family statements, and I called her out that "sharing common rituals" is not on the table; we are separated. Of course I get the response that "I don't want that either, shared birthdays only under duress, after you accused me of DV, I struggle to see our shared humanity."

After Parenting Plan, I'm out of the house. I've been repeatedly told that it doesn't affect any sort of rights.

[PeterB]

Can you explain the meanings of:

"sharing common rituals"

Do you mean both of you will host together or one hosts and invites the other?


"shared birthdays only under duress, after you accused me of DV"

You accused her of what?

[Josh71]

She is stating that she wants to have weekly meals, common birthdays, and general fun time with the kids at the park. Common rituals.

As a family.

I said no. We are no longer that sort of family, we now do our own thing. Our own rituals. Maybe monthly, maybe only special occasions. The reason I say this is that she is toxic, manipulative, and possibly a narc. It's in my best interest to minimise contact as much as possible.

Early in the week she throw stuff off the table and kicked some bags out of anger. Most likely because she just got a letter from my L. The kids came out running to me upset. I called her out and said it could be considered domestic violence. Because I didn't see it, she saying it didn't happen, it's not DV, and all the other things you can imagine. I know D11 saw it, because she was upset when it happened. But I believe W manipulated her because D11 is now saying she didn't see it. S8 is quite honest and said this is what happened, but it's not something I can pursue further. It doesn't bother me, it's just another thing to gaslight me about. My point was made, I'm going to call her out on that sort of behavior.

I had a great chat with a friend who is divorced and my L. I realise now the manipulation and excuses STBXW will make in order to reduce my access to children. I feel confident I have a good plan and I can always end mediation with let me check with my L.

[Traveler]

Hi tt180,

She is stating that she wants to have weekly meals, common birthdays, and general fun time with the kids at the park. Common rituals. I said no. We are no longer that sort of family, we now do our own thing. Our own rituals. Maybe monthly, maybe only special occasions.

"No, that doesn't work for me."

Early in the week she throw stuff off the table and kicked some bags out of anger. Most likely because she just got a letter from my L. The kids came out running to me upset. I called her out and said it could be considered domestic violence.

S8 is quite honest and said this is what happened, but it's not something I can pursue further. My point was made, I'm going to call her out on that sort of behavior.

My XW *was* abusive and I won primary custody for a decade. If you feel domestic violence is occurring: (a) Call the police to document the incident even if you can't prove it. You say you and your son said similar things--that has weight! Especially if it happens again. (b) record your son's or any other witnesses' testimony while it's fresh, (c) whatever you do DON'T move out--that isn't best for your littlest one when you could delay the D to protect her and get more custody. If you don't feel domestic violence is occurring then I'd suggest stop criticizing her. Ratcheting up her anger towards you won't lead to the best possible settlement, co-parenting relationship, or parenting behaviors.

[Josh71]

I don't criticize her for obvious reasons, but I had to call that one out. It's not the first time she's done it, maybe only 3 times in 13 years. I did hear the bang, so I know something happened. She's just gaslighting me on the details, a host of many items attempting to rile me up.

There are so many factors for moving out besides the Parenting Plan, especially if mediation goes poorly. But if the results are good, I want to, I need to get away for emotional reasons. But yeah, only if the agreement is sound. I go on an overseas vacation with the two older kids in three weeks, so I don't expect any movement until late next month. The trip was planned pre BD, and I have a travel concent letter from her. A welcome respite.

[Josh71]

Traveler, another reminder I talk too much. I love that line, it doesn't work for me. I admit I'm a bit fragile the last few days. Not really DBing, not overtly angry, but saying too much, whilst true, but gets her off. I was going out, but I gave up my evening for her because she wanted to see a friend who was moving interstate, and today was the last day to see her. It's some goodwill for what has been a tough week.

At the end of the day, I think we're both stressed and nervous about mediation. She said to me that using a lawyer for financial settlement is a waste of time because she isn't qualified in Family Law. Apparently STBXW didn't check her bio, 20 years experienced! She then tried to explain that her lawyer will demand that she won't send documents because they were already sent to me (*cough* BS). It's quite amusing. I just answer, "send all documents and questions to my lawyer."

[SteveLW]

So back to me

The L is contacting STBXW because her view of financial settlement isn't realistic. I've a month of back on forth on stupid nuances of Family Law. It shut her up.

With the upcoming Parenting Plan, she's angry at so many things. At the request of the mediator we emailed family statements, and I called her out that "sharing common rituals" is not on the table; we are separated. Of course I get the response that "I don't want that either, shared birthdays only under duress, after you accused me of DV, I struggle to see our shared humanity."

After Parenting Plan, I'm out of the house. I've been repeatedly told that it doesn't affect any sort of rights.

tough, just keep the L engaged. Sounds like you got a good one. Glad to hear that after the PP you can move out and not have it affect anything. Sounds like you've got a plan here.

I think unfortunately she'll continue to ramp up the nastiness. I think the history between the two of you will be hard for her to let go of as she thinks she can continue to throw hissy fits to get you to do what she'd prefer. Great job on sticking to your guns.

So how is GAL going?

[Traveler]

Traveler, another reminder I talk too much. I love that line, it doesn't work for me. I admit I'm a bit fragile the last few days. Not really DBing, not overtly angry, but saying too much, whilst true, but gets her off.

I hear you. It's easy for me to identify good retorts--from the comfort of my chair, with a La Croix in my hand, looking at the sunny garden in my backyard. The less you say in the moment ("Yes or no questions get yes or no answers"), the more time you give yourself to decide what you want after calming down and thinking through the situation.

Maybe monthly, maybe only special occasions.

I see. For me, the answer to this was, "No". My XW and I do things together on occasion, but I like that it's voluntary and no parenting agreement forces us to. Christmas typically involves "Christmas Eve" at one home and "Christmas Day" at the other home. Each home gets a bit of it! The kids get two trees and two sets of presents. I could see wanting a combined one if one of you, say, visits extended family for Christmas and that trip is important to your kids. Whatever works for you!

[Ready2Change]

another reminder I talk too much.

The less you say in the moment ("Yes or no questions get yes or no answers"), the more time you give yourself to decide what you want after calming down and thinking through the situation.

"I am not sure"
"I will let you know when I have decided"
"That does not work for me"
"I need time to think about that"
"I like it that way"
"I prefer ..."
"I will send you an email"
"I will text you"
"My lawyer will contact you"
"I am thinking"
"I am busy"
"I have something I have to take care of"
"I decided..."

Those are right off the top of my head. Wrap your head around those kind of statements.


Even in good relationships, simple and direct works.

Woman "I don't know..what to wear..should I wear jeans or a dress"
Man:"Wear the black sexy dress"

[Josh71]

One day, I'll get that dress question!

GAL is pretty good. Out with friends, exercise, time with kids. I force it even if I don't really have plans. Sometimes it's hard because of kids duties, but I'm fine with GAL. This weekend I got more time coming.

Had a good mediation session. I got good advice from my L on phrases to use, good advice from a mate on using time-outs, and because STBXW is transparent, I pre-empted the mediator with "some concerns": bad mouthing my parenting, not agreeing to 50/50, and possibly manipulating D11. It was amazing to see the mediator navigate the emotion and counter her excuses. You could see the anger on her face when we got her to consider one of my parenting proposals after the mediator solved all her objections. Her reality distortion field was on full display with twisting of facts, accusations on me, triangulation... And all my "concerns" did come out as expected. STBXW left after time was up, not even wanting to organise a follow-up session. I had a good chat aftwards, and said I learnt alot on her approach. I said I love the line "what would it take." I know that mediation is supposed to be impartial, but the one I got is an expert in Family Custody. She went so far as to point out that on of STBXW's proposals wasn't fair to the kids.

Interestingly, at one point in the session, STBXW said the environment in our house is toxic and that I need to move out.
The mediator asked me:

Is it toxic?
I said Nope.

What do you think of her proposal?
Don't like it.

What can you offer?
She initiated separation, she can move out.
(2 second pause)
Or lock in a solid parental plan, and I'll move out.

Couldn't help but feel a bit smug there. Of course, lots of excuses on why she can't afford to move out, but the mediator reminded her this isn't a financial discussion.

Anyway, it's nice to finally be in control and see things moving in a path that's right for me. I'm not expecting everything to go my way, she's going to be hard work for the next 20 years. But feeling as upbeat as ever.

[BL42]

toughtimes180,

It shut her up.

I called her out

I said no. We are no longer that sort of family

Couldn't help but feel a bit smug there.

It's hard to tell whether you're just venting here in the forum, or if that attitude is being overtly directed at STBXW. Hopefully it's the former. Just my perception but at times you can come across in your posts as a bit arrogant or smug about the situation. I completely get the emotions around the divorce, but make an effort not to allow that to seep into your interactions with her. You want to be calm cool and collected, treating her politely like a cashier, not creating any additional anger or negative feelings. Sure, she may have them anyway due to the situation or built up resentment, but ensure you're not making digs digs at her which will cause more. Even if you don't want to R, less bickering and anger will make the meditation/D process easier and less expensive, and will be better for the kids over the years.

"No, that doesn't work for me."

"I am not sure"
"I will let you know when I have decided"
"That does not work for me"
"I need time to think about that"
"I like it that way"
"I prefer ..."
"I will send you an email"
"I will text you"
"My lawyer will contact you"
"I am thinking"
"I am busy"
"I have something I have to take care of"
"I decided..."

Traveler & Ready2Change gave you some great options. Read these over and practice them.

I just answer, "send all documents and questions to my lawyer."

Great answer!

Woman "I don't know..what to wear..should I wear jeans or a dress"
Man:"Wear the black sexy dress"

One day, I'll get that dress question!

I too look forward to this type of interaction in the future!

Had a good mediation session.

Glad the mediation session went well. Sounds like you were well-informed by L, stood up for your rights, and will get an equitable outcome. Stay strong in this regard.

[Josh71]

Venting for sure. In RL, I'm not so confident and don't have an outlet to speak freely like here. No way I'd get away with saying what I say here. Calling out her behaviour is always met with resistance, I only do so if it's particularly bad since it takes resolve to not escalate.

FWIW, I don't make digs at STBXW, I just managed to get away with one today where I felt the circumstance was safe to do so. And yeah, a bit cheeky. I think I'm too open with her. I discussed on email pre-mediation points, and I made the mistake to respond to her point about family time by saying I didn't want family time together. She vented a bit today about it. The mediator pointed out that might be the case now, but maybe not in the future. Privately with the mediator I said it's a boundary issue, and I need to move on without her interfering. I said it would be something like right to refusal. Sure keep the option open, but I'm not obliged to accept. I know my W, any control she can get, she will take. However I feel STBXW is really seeing the reality of separation.

Speaking like this is a way for me to stay positive. Have a look at my earlier posts, lots of uncertainty and worry about her. I'd Iike to think I've faked it to the point that I am actually in a better place. Wasn't the case a month ago, I couldn't sleep or eat.

Anyway, it's still going to be a long hard journey, it won't always go my way, or be easy.

[Traveler]

tt180, how are things coming along?

Speaking like this is a way for me to stay positive. Have a look at my earlier posts, lots of uncertainty and worry about her. I'd Iike to think I've faked it to the point that I am actually in a better place. Wasn't the case a month ago, I couldn't sleep or eat.

Finding that DB, detached, zen state where we treat our ex-partners in a courteous way as if they were a coffee shop barista isn't easy. It takes time and effort. The simple act of striving not to be a doormat (nicing them back) or rage troll (angry/bitter) puts you ahead of many. And trying not to withdraw in your case, lol. Keep working on that progress!

[Josh71]

Hi Traveler,

Yeah, I'm doing well. I had a great GAL on the weekend, just went out myself and walked around the city, chatting with people, experiencing things I've never experienced before, and getting lots of exercise. It was a good way to get distracted since STBXW has been "suffering" since mediation by trying to pick fights and arguments. The more I read about covert narcissism, it makes so much sense. So I'm hoping her week of "injury" is coming to an end as her behavior subsides. I expected a lot of bad behaviour in and after mediation, so I was prepared. But still annoying to deal with, especially the gaslighting and history rewriting.

I'm meeting up with my FIL (or STBX-FIL) for whiskey/cigars/listening to good music. He demonstrates unconditional love, and I've discussed this earlier on about my grief at losing that relationship. He's non-judgemental so I know it can be a good time without any R talk.

My focus is kids, next round of mediation, and an upcoming trip to visit my family. I haven't seen my parents in person in 8 years, and D11/S8 will travel with me to visit them. I organised this pre-BD as I wanted my kids to have an R with their cousins, to rebuild my R with my parents and sister, as get some closure to my childhood. It will be very therapeutic.

In the meantime, STBXW if finding odd excuses to keep up conversations by SMS or email. ATM our RL conversations are purely kid related, which I really like. But the back channel conversations vacillate from outbursts, to mundane requests. I'm following the advice of not responding immediately unless I have a question.

We agreed in meditation to have weekly one on ones regarding kids, and I'm actually dreading this. It will take a lot of effort to make it work because it can easily turn into a forum for her to "negotiate" on her terms and potentially explode when things don't go well.

[Ready2Change]

We agreed in meditation to have weekly one on ones regarding kids, and I'm actually dreading this.

As far as one on ones with the kids, I assume one parent has two kids while the other gets the one on one time?

I would suggest getting the exchange day/times concrete and the child rotation set. Yes there will be exceptions but exceptions should be fairly rare. I either had all three, or no kids. I always enjoyed my one on one time with each of my kids when I was able to get it. Focus on the fact that you and each child can make great memories together, not what their mothers interactions and behavior will be like. Changing your mindset changes everything.

[BL42]

Ready2Change,

We agreed in meditation to have weekly one on ones regarding kids, and I'm actually dreading this.

As far as one on ones with the kids, I assume one parent has two kids while the other gets the one on one time?

I read it to be one on ones between toughtimes180 and STBXW to discuss items related to the kids.

toughtimes180 - Not saying you have to have weekly one on ones, a lot can be handled over email, but you two do have young children and are going to need to communicate with STBWX about items for quite a long time, so best to get used to that. I agree w/R2C in not focusing on STBXW. Maybe she'll have "explosions", maybe she won't - but it's in the future and you can't control it, so no sense worrying about it.

[Josh71]

Yeah, the one on one is to be logistical and kids only. Since STBXW doesn't have a good track record of boundaries, it's something I need to be careful with. She can easily use it as a forum for other things since at the moment all face to face conversation outside of day to day has been shutdown.

I am TOTALLY looking forward to life and parenting without her. I've had a taste, and I love it. It's what keeps me positive about the future. My mindset was there a month ago, and I will be fine.

ATM she's saying she wants to come with a PRIVATE proposal. For what, I dunno, Parenting Plan, settlement? I suspect she doesn't like how mediation didn't go well for her. I'll keep an open mind, but I'm prepared that it's a bypass attempt. She's been quite inflexible about setting the next date . . . The stick is that if mediation fails, I can get a legal document that asserts the failure and I can then go the legal route through the courts. I do not want to, but I'm not afraid if I have to.

[Traveler]

STBXW doesn't have a good track record of boundaries,

These 1:1's are an opportunity for you to get more comfortable with setting and enforcing boundaries.

"My wife will not curse at me." is NOT a boundary. You do not control this.
"I will not listen to my wife if she's cursing at me." IS a boundary. You control this.

Scenario: Wife calls you and curses at you.
Enforcement: You hang up.

She can easily use it as a forum for other things since at the moment all face to face conversation outside of day to day has been shutdown.

Wife: I'd like to discuss alimony.
You: In these 1:1s I will only talk about co-parenting our kids.
Wife: Alimony blah blah blah alimony blah blah blah
You: ---
Wife: Don't you have anything to say?
You: In these 1:1s I will only talk about co-parenting our kids.

The stick is that if mediation fails, I can get a legal document that asserts the failure and I can then go the legal route through the courts. I do not want to, but I'm not afraid if I have to.

Exactly right--if your lawyer feels her private proposal is better than what you'll get going through court, great, if not just head for court and get what the court typically awards as defaults or maybe she settles last minute.

[Ready2Change]

I read it to be one on ones between toughtimes180 and STBXW to discuss items related to the kids.

Thanks for clarifying....I miss read his statement.

Yes, use it to set and enforce boundaries.

Good luck

[Josh71]

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date. In the lead up to the second mediation session, I've had daily abusive emails about all sorts of things, and verbally all the usual I've come to expect: projection, reframing the past, blame for the littlest of things. I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll. I guess it's because STBXW was nervous about the session. She even started attacking the credibility of the mediator, threating to move to another one.

The session was strange. She didn't verbally attack me as much, but I did come prepared. I countered every single objection she had from the previous session, and even drafted up a sample plan. I feel practically no concession on her part, but since she wanted me to only have every second weekend, it's gone well. We got to the point about 50/50 and she wouldn't budge from 40/60. I pressed to say what would it take, and she wouldn't answer. I kept pressing, and she said, give me the finances I'm asking for. I paused for about 10 seconds to then proclaim, wow! Blackmail. I don't know what to say! (It's not blackmail, I guess it's extortion?)

In other words, she used our children as a bargaining chip. I really couldn't believe this. I honestly thought we were finished with no resolution until mediator suggested I could draft up a yearly calendar and I might find that with school holidays I'll come what I'm after. I agreed, as my mental arithmetic suggested this could work (forgetting I might not have enough annual leave).

So back to me to draft something and see if she'll sign the damn thing.

I guess, to be positive, I'm closer then ever to what I wanted in a Parenting Plan. Just not quite what I thought. My IC has gone through this before and said not to worry, just keep going back to mediation, he said it took him 7 sessions over 2 years.

It really enforces to me I cannot trust anything from this woman, and I did the right thing to not negotiate the finances. She still tries a couple of times to week to sidestep lawyers with emails or even sms. I guess since the hard threats haven't worked, it's now a softer approach. I don't even respond to any of them.

The best part of IHS is the weekends. It's a blissful glimpse of the future. A day of the kids with no interference and a day by myself. Three weeks in a row, and I love it.

In four days I fly with D11 and S8 for a 2 week overseas vacation. It's just what I need, so I can forget about things for a while. I am half expecting some letter from her lawyer during this time. You know, to remind me who's in charge. But I shouldn't focus on that, just on the awesome quality time I'm facing.

In case Steve asks how's my GAL, gym, bushwalks, out with friends, about to start a martial arts class. In terms of validation, that's pretty much finished. The conversations have no emotion, so there isn't anything to validate. I save that for the kids.

Tough times indeed.

[SteveLW]

TT, this is very common with WWs. When their LBS has in the past let them walk over them, when the LBS starts standing up for themselves the WW gets vitriolic. Here is the thing: after this is all said and done she may not like you very much, but she WILL respect you! Respect is paramount to being liked. Whether you ever R with her or not, whether you want to R with her or not. Standing up for yourself is important because being liked without any respect is not a great place to be with anyone.

Keep standing up for yourself. She may be mean and nasty and angry, but she will respect you.

[Josh71]

I hope so. There wasn't much R TBH in years of marriage. I'll take respect from her over being liked.

I won't say there will never be an R with her. I will say she has to 180 like mad to get there. Given she'd rather sit on the couch and IM, and take phone calls in her room, I'd say D is the most likely outcome.

Thanks, Steve. Just needed to vent. In one week, I won't be thinking of my sitch at all.

[BL42]

toughtimes180,

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date. In the lead up to the second mediation session, I've had daily abusive emails about all sorts of things, and verbally all the usual I've come to expect: projection, reframing the past, blame for the littlest of things. I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.

Like I just told Jq25...keep your cool. Stay calm, strong, and in control.

I did come prepared.

Doing your due diligence when they don't can make a difference. It saved me a good bit of money.

We got to the point about 50/50 and she wouldn't budge from 40/60.

Don't accept anything less 50/50, period.

I pressed to say what would it take, and she wouldn't answer. I kept pressing, and she said, give me the finances I'm asking for.

Ah...there you have it. If you know what you're entitled to don't give up on custody OR finances.

In other words, she used our children as a bargaining chip.

It certainly happens. If she thinks she can get more money using something as a bargaining chip, why not?

So back to me to draft something and see if she'll sign the damn thing.

You sound more frustrated with the process and wanting it to be finalized than sad about your sitch.

I guess, to be positive, I'm closer then ever to what I wanted in a Parenting Plan.

You were always entitled to closer to what you want than what STBXW said she wanted. All you needed to do (which you are) is stand firm and let the legal process play out.

It really enforces to me I cannot trust anything from this woman, and I did the right thing to not negotiate the finances.

"Trust nothing of what they say"

She still tries a couple of times to week to sidestep lawyers with emails or even sms. I guess since the hard threats haven't worked, it's now a softer approach. I don't even respond to any of them.

Good. If anything "please direct this to my L".

The best part of IHS is the weekends. It's a blissful glimpse of the future. A day of the kids with no interference and a day by myself. Three weeks in a row, and I love it.

You sound excited for the D. Not typical of newbies around here.

In four days I fly with D11 and S8 for a 2 week overseas vacation. It's just what I need, so I can forget about things for a while.

Awesome! Enjoy!

I am half expecting some letter from her lawyer during this time. You know, to remind me who's in charge. But I shouldn't focus on that, just on the awesome quality time I'm facing.

Right. Don't worry about it. It can wait two weeks. Enjoy your time.

In case Steve asks how's my GAL, gym, bushwalks, out with friends, about to start a martial arts class.

Well done! Keep it up!

[Josh71]

BL42,

I think after lots of reflection, and IC, I probably came to the conclusion I don't want to save the R. I just never admitted it to myself out of fear. The biggest issue I see is that all her behaviors add up to something along the lines of Narcissism or Borderline. And because her changes over the years have been superficial at best, I can't see any way for her to change to what I need. Now, of course, in a good relationship, her behaviors are not as bad as now. But they are still toxic, and it was right from the start. Post separation has only amplified those core behaviors. My personal work is why I valued myself so little to think this was acceptable.

I know this board is about saving the marriage, and I think there was a bit of a debate about that. But I see this board as saving yourself, with an strong focus on saving the marriage. Because at the end of the day, I see a lot of LBS quite happy about D when the R didn't work out. The reason I'm happy about D is because I see no way to save it. I can only DB, nothing more. Time and time again, I feel the positive difference when I'm not around her, so it's a taste of freedom so to speak.

You are right, I'm frustrated at the process of separation, not at the separation itself. I am sad about the loss, but not that much. I recognize I already grieved and accepted the end of this well before BD. I just never realised it.

Of course I wish she could improve herself so we could have a healthy relationship. I really do. But I need to accept reality, and everything suggests she won't change.

Hope this makes sense.

[Traveler]

TT180, it's reasonable for you to decide that a marriage where neither of you has been happy for years is worth saving. 12 years later I have no qualms about divorcing my XW. I believe it was the right choice for me and my kids. Do your best to control your emotions to minimize damage to the co-parenting relationship. If you're in the right, your lawyers will prevail without harsh words. There will be some hard times when IHS ends and you find yourself alone. Hopefully, you'll find your happy single and you'll both find your happy with partners who accept who you are. Self-improvement can only improve those odds.

[LH19]

12 years later I have no qualms about divorcing my XW. I believe it was the right choice for me and my kids.

Have you ever asked your kids if they agree with you or is this your typical selfish statement?

[Josh71]

LH19, interesting question, if provocative.

For me, I know D11 is too self-absorbed to care (for now). S8, I worry about the impact, he's sensitive and has emotional regulation issues. But I like to think that I don't exhibit toxic behaviors to my kids, although I'm sure in twenty years they will be complaining to their therapist about me! Many times I call out STBXW for her inability to accept my children's emotions, even today I called her out for dismissing my Son's anger.

When she is not around, I don't see the same behavioral issues that we've been dealing with over the last 5 years. I genuinely believe she contributes a lot to the children's conflict. In fact D11 blurted out last week that STBXW is a narc. Where she picked that up is beyond me, I've never once said that in our house. I was laughing inside, but shut my mouth to see where the conversation went. D11 had valid critisms, and STBXW didn't handle it well.

So I'd like to think, her choice to leave will be better for my kids. Because I safely demonstrate empathy, compassion, and parent by example, and will be able to do without interference. I will be a safe place for them.

Without knowing Traveler sitch, I hope I'll feel the same in a few years time.

[Traveler]

LH19, interesting question, if provocative.

I've learned not to feed the forum bully.

When she is not around, I don't see the same behavioral issues that we've been dealing with over the last 5 years. I genuinely believe she contributes a lot to the children's conflict.

So I'd like to think, her choice to leave will be better for my kids. Because I safely demonstrate empathy, compassion, and parent by example, and will be able to do without interference. I will be a safe place for them.

That's very possible. And maybe you will lead by example. When my kids tell my XW they consistently behave differently at my home than hers, she sometimes gets curious, and adopts my policies or behaviors.

[LH19]

I've learned not to feed the forum bully.

I also learned you are not the nice guy you try to portray yourself to be on these boards. You do what's best for you and you ignore tough questions. You made the decision for your kids. I just asked if you ever asked them if they agreed with your decision. I know if I ask mine they would both 100% agree our D was best for them.

[kml]

My personal work is why I valued myself so little to think this was acceptable.

This!

[LH19]

I know if I ask mine they would both 100% agree our D was best for them.

Yikes. NOT best for them.

[Ready2Change]

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.

Then you still have more personal growth work to do.

[Josh71]

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.

Then you still have more personal growth work to do.

In what sense? Sure, I'll be in IC for a while to get over the impact , but the sitch right now is persistent emotional abuse. I have to choose when to stand-up or ignore because each stand-up requires energy to withstand. And I don't always have the resolve.

[JosephS]

I've learned not to feed the forum bully.

I also learned you are not the nice guy you try to portray yourself to be on these boards. You do what's best for you and you ignore tough questions. You made the decision for your kids. I just asked if you ever asked them if they agreed with your decision. I know if I ask mine they would both 100% agree our D was best for them.

And here we go again? What purpose does this serve? Do you feel better? This is suppose to be about helping someone who is going through a pain they didn’t see coming. We are suppose to be supportive of the particular persons thread and here you go derailing everything again.

You know darn well his kids were abused by his ex and yet you continue to pull this. If you don’t believe him than don’t, but what purpose does it serve to stalk him in every thread and call him out because you don’t like him? Did like a teenager take your account from you?

LH I appreciate you were there for me 2 and a half years ago, just sad to see this. Stay on topic and help the person here or move on and grow up. And if divorce wasn’t what was best for your kids, I guess your marriage wasn’t as dysfunctional as you portray.

[LH19]

Joseph I forgot that you are very protective of him. Yeah since he brags about being besties with his ex wife that story that just came out recently doesn’t hold too much weight with me. I asked him a simple question if his kids thought the same as he did and he came back with a cocky comment to me which I didn’t like so I spoke my mind.

He’s got you and a few others snowed but Im confident most here are on to him.

My marriage wasn’t dysfunctional it ended by death of a thousand paper cuts like most who come here.

I’m glad I was able to help you and appreciate the advice on you telling me what to do but I’m good. Hope the baby is doing well.

Sorry for the hijack TT80.

[JosephS]

LH,
Has nothing to do with being protective of him. Has everything to do with you continuing to derail peoples threads to go after him. See, the issue isn't him, or me, it's truly you. You've made your point several times over and in his thread. He's acknowledged it, you've had your debate, yet you won't let it go.

It has nothing to do with being "snowed". I honestly don't care if he's friends with his ex, talks to her, doesn't talk to her...I don't care. He gives the best FREE advice he can on his own time, and somehow that's not good enough for you. You're obsession with him is just weird.

Sorry you don't consider death by a thousand cuts dysfunctional.

TT sorry for doing this in your thread. I came here in March of 2020 and my thread wouldn't stay on the front page for more than a few hours because of how much people were posting. Now, we have threads that are days old. Shouldn't be to hard to figure out why.

LH, respond, don't, I really don't care. I liked to lurk on here to see if there was advice I could give, but now that this site has turned into Get a divorce and act like a teenage player and have relations with as many people as you can or you're doing it wrong, I can no longer relate. You can add me to the list of people that won't be returning or looking anymore.

[LH19]

HS dude than by your description everyone on here is in a dysfunctional marriage because people in good marriages don’t get divorced.

It’s funny that your judgmental last paragraph describes your boy CW to a T.

Sorry you feel you’re too good for us. Peace my friend.

[Ginger1]

My daughter is almost 15 and doesn’t know what a narc is. I couldn’t imagine her knowing at 11. 11!!!!! You might want to check out what she’s been viewing on social media or the internet and maybe censor some stuff, because that’s just out of the realm of true comprehension for an 11 year old

[Ginger1]

Joseph- dating is dating and we all aren’t very fortunate to find someone very easily like you did. Bu you sound a little self righteous there about the dating and sex. You did knock up your girlfriend and have a kid out of wedlock.

I speak for myself here, and that while I date and have sex I surely protect myself well. I don’t think either should be a judgement point as long as we feel we each can look at ourselves in the mirror at the end of the day

[JosephS]

What can I say I’m a glutton for punishment I guess, so here I am.

Most people in good marriages don’t get divorced. But of course your definition of a good marriage may be different than mine.

Spin my “judgemental paragraph” all you want if it helps you. CW attempting to find his right partner is a lot different than going out and sleeping with whomever you want for no reason other than to get off. Not only that but he’s been in long term relationships.

I don’t feel like I’m too good for anyone. Absolutely nothing I said was pointed at anyone but you.

Oh Ginger, somehow I just knew you’d be the next one to reply.

I never said having one sexual partner, being in a long term relationship, and having a child is sleeping around or negative. But yes I did have a child out of wedlock. But if you believe being in one relationship since being divorced is an issue I’m sorry to hear that.

[SteveLW]

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.

Then you still have more personal growth work to do.

In what sense? Sure, I'll be in IC for a while to get over the impact , but the sitch right now is persistent emotional abuse. I have to choose when to stand-up or ignore because each stand-up requires energy to withstand. And I don't always have the resolve.

R2C, I think, means in the sense that things will start getting better as you do more work on your own personal growth. It is like my favorite bald, Texan TV psychologist says: "if you improve yourself, people around you will respond positively." This even goes for angry WASs. I am a huge advocate of standing up for yourself, but I also believe in taking the high road. People will try to drag you down into the muck with them, but it is up to you whether or not you go down there with them. I like how you've been doing a pretty good job of managing the balancing act of standing for yourself AND being the bigger person. Kudos!

But if you are describing recent periods of time as "the worse to date", then as R2C says you need to just keep on working the self-improvements to continue towards being the best version of yourself that you can be. toughtimes, you've got the resolve, the tools, and the mental focus to do that, that much is clear. So keep working at it!

Have been doing any reading lately? If so, what? If not, R2C has some great self-improvement book suggestions. And then there is always No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think that book is a must read for any LBH!

[LH19]

Spin my “judgemental paragraph” all you want if it helps you. CW attempting to find his right partner is a lot different than going out and sleeping with whomever you want for no reason other than to get off.

Dude your boy had forest sex with a girl he met that day.

Not only that but he’s been in long term relationships.

One in 12 years.

I don’t feel like I’m too good for anyone.

Joseph we have a few hypocritical holy rollers on this board

Oh Ginger, somehow I just knew you’d be the next one to reply.

She protects me like you protect CW

I never said having one sexual partner, being in a long term relationship, and having a child is sleeping around or negative. But yes I did have a child out of wedlock. But if you believe being in one relationship since being divorced is an issue I’m sorry to hear that.

Ahh so you make the rules on what is right and wrong.

[Ginger1]

You were not in one relationship. And I’m NOT judging about having a child out of wedlock. And I don’t believe being in one relationship since divorce is an issue.

The issue is passing judgement on those who are divorced , dating and chose to have sex , even if it is “just to get off” as long as those 2 parties are protecting themselves and are consenting. Some frown on child out of wedlock , some
Frown on safe sex outside of a relationship. It’s not for anyone to judge, that’s all.

And back to the actual thread owner. When we l came here we were left and told our spouses wanted a divorce. We didn’t come here wanting to leave our spouses. If we decide on the process of DB that we don’t want to try to save a marriage that our spouse doesn’t want to save, it doesn’t mean we are pro divorce. It doesn’t put us on a wall away spouse level. Truth be told, it takes 2 people to want to save a marriage. And when the process of trying to save kne when only
Party wants to, there is no shame in saving it selves when it takes a toll on us and decide to go through with the divorce our spouse wants

[Josh71]

Ginger1,

Spot on. I'm not pro divorce. It's just my STBXW did me a favor. I'm not wanting to save my marriage because it cannot be saved. It would take magic for her to change to what is needed. Ironically, she feels the same as me. The difference between this BD and last is that I woke up to the reality of emotional abuse and just how insidious it is. When I look at her behavior through that lense, it's made me question a lot about our entire marriage. I have a lot to contribute to the failure, and a lot of improvement, it's not all her. But where I thought I had to improve wasn't the case, it was the result of 12 years of gaslighting. Narcs have a very crafty way to justify why it's you. And this nice guy accepted that. The realization she has no capability of empathy is what finally made me feel I'm supporting this D and on my terms.

Steve, I've read NMMNG twice. It resonates, and some good stuff there. I've also read the book called attachment. It freaked me out as it explained anxious avoidant attachment (our marriage) quite accurately.

For now, I've had two days of practically no outbursts. Very odd. Quite relaxing actually.

[Spiral]

JosephS,

A lot of people lurk on the site and I think that it is good to have a variety of perspectives. You should continue to contribute. I think that there are good marriages that suffer through affairs. People do hit middle age, become unhappy with their lives, meet an affair partner and fantasticize about a new and exciting life, and then after a couple of years want to go back to their old, stable life. I'm not convinced that it is driven entirely by the state of their marriage. I think that there are other things that might drive someone to have an affair too. People also have an affair, leave, file for divorce, and then stop pursuing the divorce. Then, the person who left starts to treat the person who was left with kindness and respect. From my experience, DB is an excellent path to get back to that point for the LBS if that's what someone is looking for. I have my doubts about reconciling, but I know that you can DB your way back to that point. And even if the LBS decides to get a divorce, it brings you to a good point for post-divorce parenting.

As for everyone's dating life after BD, why does it matter to anyone but them? Everyone's spouse made the decision to leave. People should do what they want.

Spiral

[Ready2Change]

Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.

Then you still have more personal growth work to do.

In what sense?

Something out of your control is taking a toll on you internally. It is something you can reflect on and see if there are changes to your behavior, belief system, thought process etc. that can change how it is affecting you.

[Ready2Change]

I've learned not to feed the forum bully.

Obviously not. This statement is feeding/escalating. While dealing with my X, I learned to ignore and not engage.

really simple:

Have you ever asked your kids if they agree with you or is this your typical selfish statement?

No I haven't asked.

[Josh71]

Continued here:

Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (6)