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Posted By: Josh71 I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 09:49 PM
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Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 09:50 PM
Thanks all. I'm sitting on an email response for another two days while I think about how to reply. Mentioning L does seem like escalation, but I guess she is giving me no choice. I like the line: "Write down how to split our assets, and I'll discuss with a L."

Compared to where I was two weeks ago, I certainly feel indifferent. And she can feel it. She's hardly engaged and hasn't escalated anything. And when she complains about something, it's respectful. It's actually quite nice, the way it should be.

To SteveLW's question, I can wait it out for a while. Two weeks ago, no I couldn't. But now, yes. We agreed to sell the house in alignment with kids end of school term. It needs to be 1 year after BD anyhow for a formal divorce.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 10:02 PM
TT,

Try to make your posts about you and not “she” and what she’s thinking or doing. Your on the roller coaster and it’s going to be a up and down ride for awhile.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 10:29 PM
Thanks all. I'm sitting on an email response for another two days while I think about how to reply. Mentioning L does seem like escalation, but I feel like I have no choice. I like the line: "Write down how to split our assets, and I'll discuss with a L."

Compared to where I was two weeks ago, I certainly feel indifferent. Minimal engagement and no escalations, it's respectful. It's actually quite nice, the way it should be.

To SteveLW's question, I can wait it out for a while. Two weeks ago, no I couldn't. But now, yes. We agreed to sell the house in alignment with kids end of school term. It needs to be 1 year after BD anyhow for a formal divorce.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 10:39 PM
toughtimes180,

Good just waiting to collect yourself before responding, but why do you feel the need to mention a L? Seems unnecessary.

Instead of: "Write down how to split our assets, and I'll discuss with a L."
Why not: "Write down how you propose splitting our assets, and I'll review it."
(then you consult with a L on your own)
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
Good just waiting to collect yourself before responding, but why do you feel the need to mention a L? Seems unnecessary.
Right. It's talking to your attorney before you make an offer or agree to one that prevents you from making bad decisions ("being pushed around"), not announcing that you have an attorney.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/11/22 11:16 PM
yes except for the fact that if she doesn't understand he's going to run it by his lawyer, she will 1) not understand why she can't have an answer the next day and 2) not be a reasonable as she might be if she understands a lawyer is reviewing it.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by BL42
"Write down how you propose splitting our assets, and I'll review it."
This is your NEW communication style.

Start saying less. Using the fewest words to get the point across has the strongest effect.


Yes.
No.
I will let you know when I have decided.
I can see you are frustrated.
I will need time to process what you have said.
I am not sure right now.
I have not thought about that.
I believe it is best if .....

All these new skills will also be valuable when interacting with your children (and anyone else).
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 05:14 AM
Thanks.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 12:18 PM
toughtimes, unfortunately these things have a way of escalating anyway. Especially as you refuse to give into her every demand, this will make her raise the stakes. You are in a good place by having a lawyer already. So many LBSs try to tread these things without one. But her response in that email is part and parcel of what I am talking about. Lots of WASs act like spoiled children. Demanding what they want then throwing a fit when they do not get it. We had one LBH here whose WW was especially like that. After she left and moved in with OM, she show up at the house demanding things she'd abandoned. At one point she even tried to break in to the house. Do not underestimate the lengths LBSs will go to try to get their way. You've already tasted that with her scathing email.

So deferring to your lawyer may feel like escalation. Really all it is you protecting yourself. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 03:22 PM
Indeed Steve. I know she went to IC today and I guess that prompted her to investigate mediation. Interesting, since she has not communicated anything on settlement when I asked. And her parenting plan is that she wants specific days, and I allow her to come play with the kids for a few hours on my days. I take it that mediation is easier then putting in the effort.

So today I drafted a detailed 10 page parenting plan as I want it, including how it would look on the days she wants. It has everything in it. I nicked it from a legal site, they covered more than I would have thought. I flicked it to her by email today for comment. I'm curious to see how she responds. I'm guessing she'll make some excuse since responding is in the too hard basket.

I am considering another L though that prepares proforma settlements. There is aspect that she might be right on. The majority of equity in our house is based on investments she brought to the M. My L said it doesn't matter, but there is a few case laws that show it might. This is how she is trying to leverage a bigger share. I did ask her for the value of her investments at the time of M, but she of course refused to provide.

The mediation she wants specifically states you need legal advice before participating. She's cheap, she'll probably opt for legal aid which hopefully means they'll ground her expectations.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 03:35 PM
I am not an expert but I tend to agree to with your L. With no pre-nup in place, using her investments to buy the house could indeed make it community property now. And there are even some states that would include investment pre-marriage communal after a certain length of time. Use the law to your advantage. Protect yourself. I am always for shopping around for ICs and Ls that work for you, so I think you are on the right track there.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
So today I drafted a detailed 10 page parenting plan as I want it, including how it would look on the days she wants. It has everything in it. I nicked it from a legal site, they covered more than I would have thought. I flicked it to her by email today for comment.
Hi tt180,

After many replies about sitting on your proposals and passing everything you send by a lawyer, you're finally e-mailing, but still trying out doing so the same day and without letting your attorney review it first?

Originally Posted by tt180
I am considering another L though. My L said it doesn't matter, but there is a few case laws that show it might.
Your divorce attorney is an important choice. If you don't trust yours turn to friends or Yelp to find one who's well-reviewed. You will be at a distinct disadvantage if you have to rely on "Google Law" to get you through this.

Originally Posted by tt180
The mediation she wants specifically states you need legal advice before participating.
My attorney rarely goes with THE <service> my XW wants. Propose 3 options and let her pick, or let her propose 3 options and you pick. Sounds like your wife is lawyering up. Yes, they'll ground her expectations and maximize her results.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 04:01 PM
toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
And her parenting plan is that she wants specific days, and I allow her to come play with the kids for a few hours on my days.
This is unlikely to work in the long term. Your days are your days and her day are her days. Carving out hours in your day is a logistical nightmare. Plus, what happens when one or both of you start dating? I wouldn't advise agreeing to anything in writing that allows her hours on your days, unless it's something well defined and specific such as an off-week dinner.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
So today I drafted a detailed 10 page parenting plan as I want it
10 pages sounds burdensome...and extremely difficult to enforce. In the end you two will manage the kids during your time how you see fit. You're not going to be able to control things going forward.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I'm guessing she'll make some excuse since responding is in the too hard basket.
Lots of speculation on her thoughts and response. Try not to waste headspace on this. Focus on yourself.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I am considering another L though that prepares proforma settlements. There is aspect that she might be right on. The majority of equity in our house is based on investments she brought to the M. My L said it doesn't matter, but there is a few case laws that show it might.
Rely on your legal counsel as to what you are or are not entitled to. I don't know Australian law, but if buying the house was a long time ago and the assets are comingled it may now be considered martial property and you may be entitled to half. Take what you legally deserve.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
This is how she is trying to leverage a bigger share.
It doesn't matter what she's trying to leverage, only what the law says...unless you agree to it in negotiations.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did ask her for the value of her investments at the time of M, but she of course refused to provide.
Why even bother asking her? She'll have to provide documented evidence to argue it as a pre-martial asset.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
The mediation she wants specifically states you need legal advice before participating. She's cheap, she'll probably opt for legal aid which hopefully means they'll ground her expectations.
Again wasting time and thoughts on what she might or might not do.

toughtimes180 - You're struggling with the inability to control things and spending a lot of time speculating on what W thinks. It might help if you to redirect the speculation and focus on her onto yourself and learn ways to let go of your perception of control. Also, way too much communication about the divorce negotiations IMO.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
So today I drafted a detailed 10 page parenting plan as I want it, including how it would look on the days she wants.
Do you trust her as a parent? If so, her rules at her house, your rules at your house.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
10 pages sounds burdensome...and extremely difficult to enforce. In the end you two will manage the kids during your time how you see fit. You're not going to be able to control things going forward.
I cop to making the mistake of a long child custody agreement! It didn't take me long to realize nobody remembers 10 pages of agreements or follows it if it becomes inconvenient when it's unenforceable. I have 1-2 pages I refer to frequently which spell out the schedule--routine, holiday, and days of special meaning and which take precedent. How school hours affect those. Who picks the kids up when they're sick. How to take vacations. What happens if someone's late. I'm proud my agreement has enforceable consequences for late pickup! I've never had to deal with a habitually late ex.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 06:22 PM
10 page parenting plan? Is that because you are being petty and coming back at her?

It should fill up no more than two page to include percentage of days, which days, pick up and drop off time and places. Holiday schedules, activities, etc. vacation weeks, sick day schedules, etc.

Your time is your time, her time is her time.

I don’t think you can tell her how it should look on her time as much as she can’t tell you it looks kn your time
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Traveler
My attorney rarely goes with THE <service> my XW wants. Propose 3 options and let her pick, or let her propose 3 options and you pick. Sounds like your wife is lawyering up. Yes, they'll ground her expectations and maximize her results.
Same.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/12/22 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I'm curious to see how she responds.
If she is like every other spouse of the posters here, no matter what your proposal is, she won't like it. That is why we said for her to draft up what she wants. Most likely you will not like that either, but at least you can make some logical counter proposals.

You have and adversarial relationship now. Like it or not. That does not mean you can't come to agreements. It will just be much harder. The layers feed off of this. Like it or not.


This is why YOU stand on equal and frequent contact with both parents. The older the kids get the longer they can go between seeing each parent. A firm landing ground is what you are seeking in the written agreement.

I strongly suggest concrete exchange times and a "drop off parent". Whoever had the kids dropped them off with the other parent. Otherwise (pick up parenting) you are waiting around at the other parents house waiting....Or worse, you are negotiating every exchange.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 01:04 AM
I don't know anything about parenting plans, I thought a 10-pager was where it is at. A two-pager sounds nicer than 10. But she hasn't responded, so let's see. I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?

STBXW sent me an anniversary card saving she loves me and thanks me for the wonderful family we created. It was actually touching. It was even a greeting card specifically for Exs.

I did say thanks and walked away, but not sure if I respond later, if at all.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 02:04 AM
toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I don't know anything about parenting plans, I thought a 10-pager was where it is at. A two-pager sounds nicer than 10. But she hasn't responded, so let's see. I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
I don't know about late clauses, but I recommend making a precise list for any Holidays you want to alternate outside of your regular week transitions. Literally list them in rows (Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Australia Day...whatever is important to you) and make a column for odd years and even years. Include Mother's Day for W and Father's Day for you. Include alternating the kids' birthdays, and maybe school breaks. Table format is easiest. It might save you some confusion, disagreements, and grief in the future. My ExW and I are still feeling things out in that area.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
STBXW sent me an anniversary card saving she loves me and thanks me for the wonderful family we created. It was actually touching. It was even a greeting card specifically for Exs.
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart? Don't read anything into it or let it get your hopes up.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did say thanks and walked away, but not sure if I respond later, if at all.
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by tt180
I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
In my agreement, the person getting the kids always does the driving, and if a parent is more than 30 minutes later for pickup, they lose that period of possession. You don't *have* to enforce the consequence, but it's an immediate recourse available to you if they keep making you wait. I feel bad for other parents who complain about waiting 45 minutes at pickup.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 04:49 AM
Originally Posted by BL42
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.

Originally Posted by tt180
It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
I wager that feels good. It likely comes across as more emo than your earlier polite "Thanks" and walking away. Holidays are tough. I get finding it touching, then wanting to get rid of it!
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.

Conscious or not, this is exactly why, with a WS in particular, you cannot focus on them. WSs are the flakiest of all creatures on God's green earth. I tell this story all the time. I had a discussion with my WW in the height of her waywardness. All of the behavior she was exhibiting with her EA with OM, then getting on dating sights, and sending messages to guys that were 20 years younger than her, etc. And I said, is that really what you want? I will never forget her response. "I have no idea what I want or what I am doing!" It was a rare moment of honesty from a WW. They do not know what they are doing. They are running on pure emotion. Their feelings change from moment to moment, and their actions and behavior follow.

So yes it is manipulation because at any given moment she feels either rage or sweetness will get her what she wants. There is no consistency, which is why the LBS has to be a rock. You have to be rock solid in your consistency. The moment you capitulate to one of those behaviors then you just taught her that all she has to do is get angry, get sweet, cry, etc to get her way.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
Sounds intentional. Manipulative. You want her to see it and get a reaction.

You have a lot of personal growth to focus on.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
Originally Posted by Traveler
In my agreement, the person getting the kids always does the driving, and if a parent is more than 30 minutes later for pickup, they lose that period of possession. You don't *have* to enforce the consequence, but it's an immediate recourse available to you if they keep making you wait. I feel bad for other parents who complain about waiting 45 minutes at pickup.
Sounds like a good agreement. Precise is better than vague. 30 minutes is a good precise number.

The divorce paperwork should be a solid landing point when disagreements occur. Exceptions can be negotiated, as long as communication is happening.

My agreement was not in the divorce paperwork, but this clause "any and all parenting time schedules may be altered from time to time by our mutual agreement"
Posted By: may22 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by BL42
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
I agree with R2C. This is passive-aggressive, manipulative behavior. Why did you do this? What were you hoping to gain?

And BL-- due respect, but you should know better than to recommend this kind of action to a newbie. Throw it out if you don't want it-- fine. Engineering so that she sees it lying in the garbage-- this is not DBing.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.
All y'all are spending a lot of time parsing out her behavior. Why she sent it. If she's being manipulative. Conscious or unconscious. Narcissism. Pacification. (I give Traveler the benefit of the doubt on this one that he's just trying to raise some alternate explanations.) But... jeez. Stop. Mindreading is a fool's game. All that energy being poured into something you cannot control-- your wife.

TT180-- focus on YOU. Breathe. GAL. What's best for you? Focus on that. Even if is is just something small you are doing for yourself today that can bring you joy. What helped me in my sitch when things got bad was to just spend time with my kids, totally focus on them and being 100% present, or going out to dinner with a girlfriend and having fun, or reading a totally indulgent beach read novel or watching a super engrossing movie. Yoga. Figure out how to give yourself a break from all this just for a bit.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
Sounds intentional. Manipulative. You want her to see it and get a reaction.

You have a lot of personal growth to focus on.
You are right. As much as I know this is the right path for me, I'm upset that it feels like on her terms, a feeling I've had over the course of our relationship. I closed the bin lid.

Ive just read the solo partner. What a good read. Lowering expectations will help me to understand what I can do for 180. The only thing I didn't like about the book was there wasn't specific advice for the distancer. I took it as, manage anger and expectations, and you'll find the distancer tendencies will diminish.

Today is hard, I'm getting the cold shoulder. Complaints about things I didn't do properly while looking after the kids last night.

This is something I can't get my head around. Some of the complaints are valid, some are not relaistic, others I would never think of, and could never consider. I validate, but always have struggled with what is reasonable and what is not. My approach is to improve on what I'm capable of, validate all her concerns, and not be bothered by the rest.

In 10+ years of M, I tried to do it all, but obviously that was in vain and with resentment.

The communicate less approach is nice, but it's triggering her anxiety. I have to make sure to include validation in my responses as well.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/13/22 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
Complaints about things I didn't do properly while looking after the kids last night.
Is this a new dynamic?

Originally Posted by tt180
This is something I can't get my head around. Some of the complaints are valid, some are not relaistic, others I would never think of, and could never consider. I validate, but always have struggled with what is reasonable and what is not. My approach is to improve on what I'm capable of, validate all her concerns, and not be bothered by the rest.
You can validate any emotion, you can actively listen to any concern, but don't forget it's totally okay to also AGREE when her point makes sense and APOLOGIZE once when you goof. You don't want to be Mr. SorryForEverything, but there's strength in being reasonable and recognizing mistakes.

You can share here if you're not sure if her complaint's reasonable. It sounds like with the complaints you have a good approach and head on your shoulders.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 01:34 AM
Thanks. It's a work in progress. Not that I'm trying to impress to win her back, or to be sorry for everything (which is the old MNG dynamic). It's about how I can be a better partner/room-mate.

She wants to have a chat tomorrow. I said yes, so long as we agree on the topics. I suggested let's talk parenting plan. She immediately replied, "maybe it's best to navigate this alone, so let's just communicate with experts, like mediation."

This is the dynamic we have, I assert a boundary that she doesn't like, and then reacts strongly. It's how I fell into the MNG for so long. Actually, in couples therapy, it came out we hardly communicated about any major life decision, let alone the small stuff. So basically we are forced to make up for 10+ years of lack of communication.

I suggest this is my response:

I understand you feel that you can't trust me, we're still trying to sort out the best communication path forward. I'm still open to any offer to chat.
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Thanks. It's a work in progress. Not that I'm trying to impress to win her back, or to be sorry for everything (which is the old MNG dynamic). It's about how I can be a better partner/room-mate.

She wants to have a chat tomorrow. I said yes, so long as we agree on the topics. I suggested let's talk parenting plan. She immediately replied, "maybe it's best to navigate this alone, so let's just communicate with experts, like mediation."

This is the dynamic we have, I assert a boundary that she doesn't like, and then reacts strongly. It's how I fell into the MNG for so long. Actually, in couples therapy, it came out we hardly communicated about any major life decision, let alone the small stuff. So basically we are forced to make up for 10+ years of lack of communication.

I suggest this is my response:

I understand you feel that you can't trust me, we're still trying to sort out the best communication path forward. I'm still open to any offer to chat.

How about:

"Ok. Sounds good. I'll have my lawyer contact you."

But then ALSO don't have any chat at all. Keep it all through lawyers.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by tt180
She wants to have a chat tomorrow. I said yes, so long as we agree on the topics. I suggested let's talk parenting plan.

She immediately replied, "maybe it's best to navigate this alone, so let's just communicate with experts, like mediation."

I assert a boundary that she doesn't like, and then reacts strongly.
Josh, persuading her to have a divorce logistics conversation isn't a boundary--boundaries control you! She referred you to a mediator or attorney. That's the same path we've been recommending to you.

I wonder what she originally wanted to talk about? I'd say, "What's up?" If the matter had anything to do with legalities I'd be following Valeska's lead and referring them to my attorney.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by BL42
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
I agree with R2C. This is passive-aggressive, manipulative behavior. Why did you do this? What were you hoping to gain?

And BL-- due respect, but you should know better than to recommend this kind of action to a newbie. Throw it out if you don't want it-- fine. Engineering so that she sees it lying in the garbage-- this is not DBing.
may22 is right. I should've left out that third sentence. I meant it in a flippant "who knows..." sense as opposed to an "engineered scheme" to get a reaction, but point taken...manipulation is not DB'ing.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 01:20 PM
It's interesting. I had a 12-hour GAL with my S. His first ice hockey game (yup, it exists down under). Awesome time. And all through the event, frosty messages with STBXW with a final request for the value of my IT equipment (really? Its so insignificant). I get home and complete snub. She's even talking to S right next to me, turning her back to me. I'm not reacting, even tell her good night, and she walks out of S room.

My immediate reaction is to think what did I do? But I reviewed my messages, and they were reasonable and polite. But I see why. She wanted to talk about a parenting plan, and realised that her proposal of fixed days would pose a logistical problem for her, she wouldn't be able to do after school activities while looking after D1. She also knows my position on partitioning the day. She mentioned she wanted flexibility to handle kids things on non-custodial days, and I said I'm not adverse to exploring flexibility, but had concerns about what does flexible mean. Let's explore schedules and agree how the next school term looks like.

I didn't think that was unreasonable, but apparently she did, and said this is why I want mediation so "the kids needs aren't overlooked."

Rather than dwell on her motives, as I so fruitlessly do, I'm going to just say (to myself), that's great, mediation involves compromise. Leave it with her to set up (which she is doing).

I'm going to lower my expectations on any sort of reasonableness from her. At this point, I can't expect anything from her.

But my fear on all this, is that for me to break free, and move on, I cannot have flexibility, be at her beckon call. I strongly feel "whats in kids interest" will be the justification for requesting anything, like to visit on my custody days, or for me to drop a kid to music lessons on her day.

Please tell me, am I unreasonable to refuse this? Because really, what is best for the kids is a nuclear family. And that's finished. I can see it from her pov, it's an effed up sitch. She assumed I'd be the cooperative co-parent, life goes on. I just know I'll never move on if we act like a happy co-parenting couple, having her in my life everyday. I'm happy to hear someone tell me she has a point, get over it, and do it for the sake of the kids. But I don't think that I have the mental resolve to be that. Am I just making matters worse by resisting?

IHS is hard.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 01:43 PM
toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I had a 12-hour GAL with my S. His first ice hockey game (yup, it exists down under). Awesome time.
That's great. Enjoy the bonding with your son. Chat up the other parents and make friends.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
And all through the event, frosty messages with STBXW with a final request for the value of my IT equipment (really? Its so insignificant).
Why go back and forth on the value of IT equipment during S's event putting a damper on it for you? That's certainly is not an urgent issue. Deal via email waiting until you have time to consider and focus on it...or through a L. Lots of posters have made that suggestion, but you don't seem to follow that advice?

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Please tell me, am I unreasonable to refuse this? Because really, what is best for the kids is a nuclear family. And that's finished. I can see it from her pov, it's an effed up sitch. She assumed I'd be the cooperative co-parent, life goes on. I just know I'll never move on if we act like a happy co-parenting couple, having her in my life everyday. I'm happy to hear someone tell me she has a point, get over it, and do it for the sake of the kids. But I don't think that I have the mental resolve to be that. Am I just making matters worse by resisting?
In terms of the parenting plan/custody/co-parenting...

My opinion is you want to define clear days on who the kids are staying with (E.g., every other week, 3-4-4-3, 2-2-3...etc.). I would not bake hours into those defined days where she come over to your place and play with the kids on your days. That's too granular. At least for me. Others may differ.

However, with little kids you'll have lots of activities and logistics. S has hockey; D has music. It's reasonable to work on reasonable coordinated within the define days to work out those activities. For example, I work remotely from home and flexible hours, which allows me to coach S7's sports teams, where as W works defined hours in the office. So even on "her weeks" I care for S after school and take him to those events and see him as much as she does even on her days. It's easier for her and it gives me more days/time with my kids. I could push back and tell her "it's your day; figure it out" but I want the extra time with my kids so I'm happy to help, not for her but for my kids and me. With your kids' ages, being able to collaborate on S's hockey and D's music practice with STBXW is going to make things easier for everyone in the long run. But get the defined days/weeks in print first, then worry about activity logistics. Be first up front to set expectations/boundaries and then relax and become more flexible. It'll get easier over time. And if you need your own time and don't want her leaning on you all the time, it's ok to state that as well.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 01:43 PM
Flexibility and being at her beck and call are two separate things . There is an in between .

I absolutely agree with mediation. Work with a mediator to find what is best for the kids in your particular situation.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 02:08 PM
Yeah, thanks. I feel I'm just overwhelmed with the idea of not having control, that she is calling all shots. My work is very flexible, so I'm prepared to take care of D2 many times a week. Reframed as kid time, and we discussed this in earlier threads, who cares about her motivations. I don't mind, so long as it's in writing, to do pick-ups and events on non-custodial days. In writing is key, otherwise I see wriggle room.

It's the "oh weather is good, let's all go to the beach" or "I'll pick up the kids from school for some afternoon fun, then return them go you", or "the cousins are at grandmas, come over". That is what I object to. These are things she actually said to me two weeks ago. Of course there is value in shared family time, but it feels to me she wants life as it is now, but just that I live somewhere down the road.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
And all through the event, frosty messages with STBXW with a final request for the value of my IT equipment (really? Its so insignificant).
Why go back and forth on the value of IT equipment during S's event putting a damper on it for you? That's certainly is not an urgent issue. Deal via email waiting until you have time to consider and focus on it...or through a L. Lots of posters have made that suggestion, but you don't seem to follow that advice?
I didn't engage, nor go back and forth. I'm just pointing out the current mood.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
I didn't engage, nor go back and forth. I'm just pointing out the current mood.
Getting to what the court deems fair without heated conversations can be as simple as BL42 is saying--negotiate in writing, sit 1-3 days on proposals, and pass proposals by your attorney.

Originally Posted by tt180
Yeah, thanks. I feel I'm just overwhelmed with the idea of not having control.
Yes, if you choose to be a primary parent you have to come to terms with 50% control. If you opt out with D2 (as you planned), you have to come to terms with STBXW calling more shots and following her lead. If you trust her enough to put her in that role, trust her choices.

Originally Posted by tt180
I don't mind, so long as it's in writing, In writing is key, otherwise I see wriggle room.
Write as much as you can down, but you will still hopefully be flexible when it involves the best interests of your kids. It's not flexibility or chaos. Last week I took an extra custody day because my D was stressed about an AP exam and I'm a subject matter expert. My ex's night went from challenging to easy. My night went from a date to studying. It was best for my D.

Originally Posted by tt180
It's the "oh weather is good, let's all go to the beach" or "I'll pick up the kids from school for some afternoon fun, then return them go you", or "the cousins are at grandmas, come over". That is what I object to. These are things she actually said to me two weeks ago. Of course there is value in shared family time, but it feels to me she wants life as it is now, but just that I live somewhere down the road.
You can write all the agreements in the world and you'll still have to get comfortable with receiving incoming requests and saying yes or no to them. These would be my default replies--

"Oh weather is good, let's all go to the beach. <she has custody>" -> "Thank you--I have plans."
"I'll pick up the kids from school for some afternoon fun, then return them to you." -> "No--this is my custody day."
"The cousins are at grandma's, come over. <I have custody>" -> "Thank you--we have plans."
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I'm just overwhelmed with the idea of not having control, that she is calling all shots.
Control and the loss of it is a good area for you to explore, maybe in IC.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
It's the "oh weather is good, let's all go to the beach" or "I'll pick up the kids from school for some afternoon fun, then return them go you", or "the cousins are at grandmas, come over". That is what I object to. These are things she actually said to me two weeks ago. Of course there is value in shared family time, but it feels to me she wants life as it is now, but just that I live somewhere down the road.
Originally Posted by Traveler
These would be my default replies--

"Oh weather is good, let's all go to the beach. <she has custody>" -> "Thank you--I have plans."
"I'll pick up the kids from school for some afternoon fun, then return them to you." -> "No--this is my custody day."
"The cousins are at grandma's, come over. <I have custody>" -> "Thank you--we have plans."
Traveler offers great responses IF these requests come up in the future. Also be prepared for her mindset to change.

Lots of WAS/WSs mention in IHS doing family activities going forward yet it never materializes. My ExW said we'd all meet up for walks and to grab ice cream cones and do shared birthday parties (not that I wanted to). A few weeks later OM2 and his family were celebrating my daughter's 2nd birthday at their new place. Remember the "don't believe anything she says"? Right now she could mean for outings at the beach or cousins gettogethers but that could change on a dime...or she could just be saying it to ease her mind. Who knows. Point is, don't expect that mindset to stay consistent going forward.

It's more likely than not to turn into "your time" and "her time" maybe with some school or activity pickups coordinated.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/14/22 11:06 PM
tough times, I detect that you still have problems telling this woman "no". As Ginger said, there are not just a choice between two extremes. There is middle ground.

However, you have to learn to get her "no". When she asks you to visit the kids on your days, the answer is "no". The dropping off a child somewhere depends on the situation, but in general "no" because you're a busy guy out GAL.

You do tend to over-analyze things. A lot of us do. Your mind will play tricks on you, making you think there are meanings in things that there aren't. Take a breath. Back away from the constant analysis, and just let things happen as they happen. In the meantime just commit to the DBing principles and move forward. Also, ever hear of visualization? You may want to try it. People that visualize failure usually fail. Visualize success. Believe it or not the only one that can prevent you from being able to move on is yourself.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/15/22 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
It's interesting. I had a 12-hour GAL with my S. His first ice hockey game (yup, it exists down under). Awesome time. And all through the event, frosty messages with STBXW with a final request for the value of my IT equipment (really? Its so insignificant).
You had a choice to focus on your GAL or your phone.

I leave my phone at home when I do date night with my lady. A deliberate action.

Whatever BS is coming through your phone is not important. You chose to interact with her. It is OK to wait and respond.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/15/22 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Whatever BS is coming through your phone is not important. You chose to interact with her. It is OK to wait and respond.

This. In fact, it is better to wait and respond.

Consider going to LRT tactics with the phone. If she calls, let it go to voicemail. If she texts, only respond to direct questions and then only in your own time. IE but right away (you're busy remember?) and then in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. And its always give to deflect. ("I need to consider that before I give an answer.")

As R2C said, you chose to interact with her during the hockey game. She only has the power over you that your give her.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/15/22 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
tough times, I detect that you still have problems telling this woman "no". As Ginger said, there are not just a choice between two extremes. There is middle ground.

However, you have to learn to get her "no". When she asks you to visit the kids on your days, the answer is "no". The dropping off a child somewhere depends on the situation, but in general "no" because you're a busy guy out GAL.
Yes, even after BD1, where I stopped being MNG, I reverted. I do have a problem with saying no. It comes out of habit to please, and fear. As you can see, there can be powerful manipulation which I fall for.

I've decided to let her call the shots with mediation for now. I don't even know what topics she wants to bring up, she won't tell me. But since its a charity, I'm going to assume it's parenting plan. I can't see them having the capacity for mediation of settlement. Again, she hasn't even shown me numbers for settlement. I found a one stop separation service which includes balance sheet and legal advice. I'm pushing for that.

I know where I want to be with the parenting plan, so it's being strong about it.

Today, she wanted a GAL day, and I was happy for that. A whole day with the kids my way.

It's a roller coaster ride, every day is a different set of emotions.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 12:07 AM
So STBXW found the card in the bin when taking some cardboard out. She fished it out, and as luck would have it, I was literally out the door with baby for a walk. She asked me if I read it. I said yes. She threw it on the ground and walked away.

Now I feel terrible. I feel she needs an explanation. In some sense, because I have been distant in our M, DBing feels like more of the same. I recall it worked with BD1, but with BD2, it certainly is not.

Not in a good state of mind ATM.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 12:25 AM
TT,

Easy big fella. This is your NGS kicking in. That card was a slap in the face to you. You didn’t take kindly to it and you tossed it. No big deal.

Chin up tits out!
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
TT,

Easy big fella. This is your NGS kicking in. That card was a slap in the face to you. You didn’t take kindly to it and you tossed it. No big deal.

Chin up tits out!
Thanks. Like everything, I won't reply right away despite the urge. It just feels cold and inconsiderate to not explain, I never really opened up in our R, and it seems more of the same. But I guess I don't need to explain, it's pretty obvious how I felt.

Such is the rollercoaster of IHS.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 12:56 AM
TT, it was a card which you read then threw in the bin, nothing to see here. It’s called guilty knowledge, you’re only thinking more of it because of the intentions you had when you did it. Lose the intentions and just do you for you and this won’t be an issue.

Stop thinking about how to explain everything and how it will look, she won’t care anyway. Re the being distant and cold thing, I struggled with this too. But if you’re polite, upbeat, happy and acting is if you’ll be fine no matter what, you will not come across as same old you.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
But if you’re polite, upbeat, happy and acting is if you’ll be fine no matter what, you will not come across as same old you.
Well, that, I can say, is the new me. Since the first week of emotional collapse, I've been almost unwavering in terms of being polite, upbeat, and happy on the outside. I've even offering to support her in her temporary job only because it works for me to get more D1 time.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
In fact, it is better to wait and respond.
Thanks for clarifying.

With a young child, I understand having your phone on you. The type of immediate communication that needs to happen is "D3 is OK, but I am on the way to the hospital because of ...."

Look, but do not respond to anything that is not a true, immediate emergency.

You both are fully capable adults and can deal with any parenting issues alone. This is what she wants. This is what you do now. Any disagreements can be dealt with through mediation. It is perfectly ok that you both have different parenting styles.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 04:57 AM
Buddy, don’t take this the wrong way… I say this in kindness (hence my user name), although it may come across harsh. You are just like me when the freight train of BD smashed into my life, and because I see a lot of you in me, I want to help!

Quote
So STBXW found the card in the bin when taking some cardboard out. She fished it out, and as luck would have it, I was literally out the door with baby for a walk. She asked me if I read it. I said yes. She threw it on the ground and walked away.

Now I feel terrible. I feel she needs an explanation. In some sense, because I have been distant in our M, DBing feels like more of the same. I recall it worked with BD1, but with BD2, it certainly is not.

Why feel terrible? She is a crazy WAW/WW who is writing bullshit cards to tug on your heart strings while she’s simultaneously smashing your marriage and family onto the rocks.

You know WHY she sent that card? She sent it for two very clear reasons.

1. To make herself feel better about what she is doing (discussion in her head - “I wrote a nice card, so I must be a nice person, so this divorce can’t be my fault, it’s just that we’re both better off apart. Great, that must mean I can bang AP without guilt”)

2. It’s a temp check to see if she’s still got you as a backup plan. “If I can see this card affects him and makes him soppy/regretful, then I know I can plough ahead with divorce and if it all goes pear-shaped I can change my mind at any minute. Phew, I guess that means him being super attached puppy dog to me actually makes the decision to divorce much easier.”

This is the crap that they tell themselves in their head.

She needs NO explanation why the card went in the bin. What she is really feeling (and what’s pissing her off) is that you are not responding like she wants you to (she can’t control you), and she’s having to face the consequences of her actions.

Quote
Not in a good state of mind ATM.

Why? This is incredibly weak (and unattractive) behaviour. Are you going to let this person’s shitty behaviour control your mood?

If my ex is happy, or sad, or angry because of HER decisions, I’m not going to let her feelings drag me down. Not my job to fix her problems.

You need to totally disconnect how you feel from how she behaves, what she says or does. The problem here is that you have completely tied your feelings of self worth and happiness and mood as to whether she is happy or not.

Let her have her little pity party about the card. And go on living your awesome life and being a great Dad.

She does her. You do you. And nothing in between. The sooner you join those dots, the better off you’ll be.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 05:20 AM
Oh, and WRT lawyers - I sense the same thing. You think it might be easier and less painful if you are gentle and don’t drop her in the lap if your big-bad lawyer.

I’m sorry, DB rules say you can’t nice a WAS/WS back, but it also applies to settlement - you can’t nice them to good financial orders or children’s orders.

The whole thing is a bloody mess. There’s a finite amount of money and time with kids, and it’s NEVER a nice fight. I think you should accept that whether there’s a lawyer, or no lawyer, or if the money split is fair/not fair, or if the custody split is 50:50 or not, or if it’s sunny today or raininf - nothing you can do right now will make this woman happy.

Better off just accepting she’s going to blow the world up no matter what, hitching your big boy pants up and getting on with it. And the best way to get on with it is to pay a lawyer so you can spend your time on you. Hobbies, counselling, being social, camping, 4x4, getting fit - let the lawyer deal with trying to keep her happy!
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
So STBXW found the card in the bin when taking some cardboard out.
This is exactly what you wanted, or more specifically created. If you didn't want her to find it, you could have shredded, burnt it, tossed it out when you were filling your car with gas.

We all make choices. Reflect on this and see if you could have made better choices. Same thing as things are unfolding in real time, stop and think about why you are behaving a certain way. Why are you doing a certain thing? IS there a better choice that will align with you current goals?
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by Kind18
What she is really feeling (and what’s pissing her off) is that you are not responding like she wants you to (she can’t control you), and she’s having to face the consequences of her actions.
Yes, and that makes me feel strong. That is what my WIP is, to control my own life. When you frame your two reasons, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not interested in a Plan-B. She walked out mid-couples therapy, and made her intentions clear. Now I'm making mine clear.

She isn't aggressively following through with D, but as I've learnt here, I'm not going to dwell on her motives or state of mind. Whatever right?

Originally Posted by Kind18
Quote
Not in a good state of mind ATM.

Why? This is incredibly weak (and unattractive) behaviour. Are you going to let this person’s shitty behaviour control your mood?
I say this inwardly, but outward, I've never shown this. Today, I never showed any reaction to her reaction, and I've been purposely friendly in our conversations. This is my WIP, to not enmesh my emotions to her emotions. I'm aware of this co-dependency issue I have, and it's something I need to work on. She knows this, an it's a hard habit to break.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
So STBXW found the card in the bin when taking some cardboard out.
This is exactly what you wanted, or more specifically created.
It is, in a way what I wanted, just not face to face as it happened. Unfortunate timing.

I own it, I accept the consequences. I probably could have handled it better, yes. In fact, none of this detracts, nor aligns with my goals. So when you frame it in terms of goals, it wasn't necessary. Saying nothing, and keeping the card would have sufficed.

My goals are to proceed with D, to better bond with all my kids, to understand my contribution to D and to subsequently improve all my relationships. Specifically, how to stop being avoidant and to foster true close connections. I've already started that process already with friends and family. In one month, I've never been closer to my Mom and Sister.
Posted By: Kind18 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 09:35 AM
If you keep the card, get emotional and tell her how much you love her and having a family with her - she thinks you’re weak, knows you’re a backup plan, and so is encouraged to continue with a no-consequence divorce -monkey branching 101.

If you bin the card, she tells her friends and family you’re an unemotional, rude [censored] - and they validate her that she’s doing the right thing because she shouldn’t have to live with someone like that.

See the theme here - IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU DO, you’re wrong in her eyes, and she’ll twist it to justify what she is doing.

So why keep trying to be right when you know you’re only ever going to be wrong?

Better to put that energy into you, than into an impossible task.

It’s good you’re keeping your emotions in check around her. Bravo! That can be really hard to do.

Hang in there buddy, you’re doing okay. Your ability to self-reflect at this early stage gives me great hope you’re going to come out of this a much happier person!

You feel crap right now - fair enough. But from where I’m sitting, your trajectory is excellent.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 09:54 AM
Kind18, you made my day. Thanks.

Many times over the years, I felt I was in double binds, and this is no different.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 01:05 PM
Almost all LBSs go through the second guessing of DBing. "I was distant in the marriage, so me being distant after BD isn't going to work." That simply isn't true. First, BD is about the WAS asking for time and space. All you are doing is giving it to them. Secondly, pressure and pursuit never work. I don't care what the dynamic was pre-BD. Once a WAS wants out, not backing off and giving them time and space is akin to pushing them out the door.

But what I am really confused about is your goal here. You've stated you want the D. Then I read a statement like you made about distance in the marriage meaning DBing is more the same.

toughtimes180, you need to decide what it is YOU want. There is nothing wrong with wanting to save your marriage. Even when there are PAs and EAs and BDs. In fact, very few LBSs come to this forum saying "I found this forum and I want to D my WAS!" Most come here hoping to save their marriage. The questions is, do you want to save it? If so, what does that look like? Obviously going back to the status quo won't work so that can't be your answer. IC for you and her. MC for both of you. Complete transparency from her (where she is, who she is going with, who will be there, no passwords you do not know on her phone, computer, social media, etc). If that is your goal then DB your butt off and let her get their on her own, where she is ready to stay and agree to your requirements for R.

If your answer is truly that you want to D her, then that is okay too. But you seem to not know that answer yourself, despite typing the words that you want a D.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I own it, I accept the consequences. I probably could have handled it better, yes. In fact, none of this detracts, nor aligns with my goals. So when you frame it in terms of goals, it wasn't necessary. Saying nothing, and keeping the card would have sufficed.
So TT I think you did what your true self wanted to do with the card. What you didn't like is the response you got from it. If she never found it would you be ok with your actions? If she didn't react the way she did would you be ok with your actions?

I can't stress this enough. Everything you do moving forward is what is in the best interest for you and your kids. How she reacts to anything should have zero effect on you.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/16/22 08:49 PM
Steve,

Once again, you can see what is on my mind.

Yes, there is a part of me that would love to stay in R. But another part of me says this is out of fear, and she can't give me what I need, so why should I? I'm aware that change can be infectious, I change, maybe it will put a thought in her head. So I'm trying to stay brave, outwardly accept D is inevitable, but with a small hope. In the current state, D is best. IF (that is a big if), she stopped some of her behaviours, came to me about reconciliation, I'd be open. And actually, her current state of cold interactions, mixed with small talk, is actually refreshing. But I don't want to cling to that hope. What I do know, and what I want in the future, is an intimate relationship based on respect, whomever that will be. That much I'm clear on.

The other aspect is trying to figure out what 180 means, and what I am to do. Taking the advice from everyone here, it seems to be focus on what I want to change, not what she wants to change. This is the hard part for me, and IC helps. I can say that physical exercise really helps to lift the mood.

What makes it all hard, is the background noise of sorting out D. She's now moved from anger to sweet emails about the path forward. It'll be interesting, because most of what she proposes does work for me. The view on finances I dont, and she'll be getting the "I need to get legal advice before I reply". I get it, I'm not to care about her reaction. I'm just finding it all very draining.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/17/22 07:26 PM
toughtimes, a lot of us LBSs struggled with the "she is being nice, she likes me!" and the "she is being mean she hates me!" thing.

The key is that you do what is best for you and your kids. Her reactions are immaterial.

But please have a high bar for her to return. sandi used to say a WW needed to be remorseful for their waywardness. Lots of WSs have returned the LBS because the A with OM flamed out. Coming back to plan B, as a fall back, is not what you are going for here. You seem to have a handle on this, but then you say things like "I get it, I'm not to care about her reaction. I'm just finding it all very draining."

Want to hear something frustrating and uplifting at the same time: you get to CHOOSE what her reactions do to you. I know that is a shocking revelation, but it is true. When a LBS comes to an epiphany like that it can be freeing. I say it is frustrating because most LBSs struggle because they are too reactive and impulsive. When my W would react poorly to me, I struggled with that too. But the minute I remembered I was in control of my own thought and feelings I could easily separate them from her reaction. This is where detachment is money. Detaching your thoughts, feelings and responses from her words and deeds. Not easy, admittedly, but if you keep working on it the first time that you have that first "I don't care about her reaction" moment, it will be so empowering and freeing that the next time you are in a similar situation it is just that much easier!

You've got this toughttimes. You are doing a lot of things right. Clean up a few more things and you will become a DBing ninja!!
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/17/22 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
The other aspect is trying to figure out what 180 means, and what I am to do. Taking the advice from everyone here, it seems to be focus on what I want to change, not what she wants to change. This is the hard part for me, and IC helps. I can say that physical exercise really helps to lift the mood.

It's actually a little of both. Are there things she complained about you that are valid?
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is where detachment is money. Detaching your thoughts, feelings and responses from her words and deeds. Not easy, admittedly, but if you keep working on it the first time that you have that first "I don't care about her reaction" moment, it will be so empowering and freeing that the next time you are in a similar situation it is just that much easier!

You've got this toughttimes. You are doing a lot of things right. Clean up a few more things and you will become a DBing ninja!!
Thanks. Yeah, the fact I'm finding it difficult shows I'm not fully there. What has helped recently is the STBXW found a legal book which talked about detachment, and she's now doing the same. She still has anger in her tone, but she has backed off quite a bit. It might also mean a tougher negotiation . . . But one thing at a time.

Originally Posted by Valeska19
It's actually a little of both. Are there things she complained about you that are valid?
Yes and no. The valid complaints are around supporting the kids, so I'm working to lift that. Communicating, I'm trying to improve, but she has the same problem. Again, putting things on email helps. The last issue is not being close and vulnerable. I don't know how that could ever be addressed in DB scenario.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 01:42 AM
TT you may want to check out the detachment thread. It get the feeling you are not quite sure what it means. You don’t read it in a book and do it. It’s a state of mind that eventually will happen. It’s rare anyone becomes detached in IHS.

What do you mean you don’t support the kids?
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Yes and no. The valid complaints are around supporting the kids, so I'm working to lift that.
Great... so when she comes heated at you about the kids.. you can remember this and answer with kindness. Doesn't mean that you don't deserve time with them. But understanding and validating her anger should lead to a different approach.


Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Communicating, I'm trying to improve, but she has the same problem. .
Keep the focus on you. Doesn't do any good to say she has it too.


Originally Posted by toughtimes180
The last issue is not being close and vulnerable. I don't know how that could ever be addressed in DB scenario.

Actually vulnerability has alot to do with communication. It has alot to do with listening to how she feels and using validating sentences. Brene Brown talks about it quite a bit - if you want to check it out.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
TT you may want to check out the detachment thread. It get the feeling you are not quite sure what it means. You don’t read it in a book and do it. It’s a state of mind that eventually will happen. It’s rare anyone becomes detached in IHS.

What do you mean you don’t support the kids?
Specifically, not cooking enough. I do spend tons of time with them, since BD I've shuffled my work to look after D2. Not because it helps her, but I get more time. I do support them with extra-circular activities, and I've recently volunteered at my S sports day. So I can manage that.

I'm mixing detachment with 180. What I'm trying to say, is how to 180 with respect to vulnerability and communication in the current climate? Valeska19 has called it out, validation, which I'm doing and focusing on, and listening (when she wants to talk). I feel the real work for me can only happen after IHS.

For detachment, we've talked about this quite a bit in my multiple threads were I would worry about her reaction, instead of focusing on what is good for me. And yeah, IHS makes it hard. As I said, outwardly I've never been upset, or argue, despite how I feel on the inside.

I chatted with a different L and he recommended I leave the house (in Aus it doesn't make a difference to claims). I'm thinking for my mental health, I'm going to have to. But for that to happen, I need to work out a parenting plan.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
she'll be getting the "I need to get legal advice before I reply".
I would like to suggest that you think about rewording this. I am not sure how, but I believe there is a better way. A way to sound stronger. Less emphasis on the legal aspect. By all means, get all the professional input needed, but you do not need to let her know that.

Couple ideas:
"Once I receive your proposal, I will need time to review...."

"I think is is important during the negotiations that we both have ample time to read and respond to each others...."
Posted By: SteveLW Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
she'll be getting the "I need to get legal advice before I reply".
I would like to suggest that you think about rewording this. I am not sure how, but I believe there is a better way. A way to sound stronger. Less emphasis on the legal aspect. By all means, get all the professional input needed, but you do not need to let her know that.

Couple ideas:
"Once I receive your proposal, I will need time to review...."

"I think is is important during the negotiations that we both have ample time to read and respond to each others...."

Those are great. Though I don't think mentioning that he has legal representation is awful either.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/18/22 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
As I said, outwardly I've never been upset, or argue, despite how I feel on the inside
As an avoidant, you aren't comfortable directly showing that you're upset, but after having a heated conversation with your XW, you drove off and didn't attend the school event. After being upset by her card, you trashed it in a place where she was likely to see it. Your STBXW noticed these displays of emotion and called both of them out.

All of us act out in one way or another when under pressure. IHS is a crucible. You're being given the perfect opportunity to test changes. If you can validate now, you can validate anywhere.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 08:59 AM
It's interesting on the point of trying validation and IHS. STBXWF is having emotional outbursts in email when I delay and respond to what's good for me. IRL, she's avoiding me and really not engaging. In fact she has been rude at my validation attempts in email or in person. Not that I consider myself overdoing it. But it's interesting to see.

It's also interesting to she how she's slowly realizing I mean business. When I suggested one of her points required advice, she went off I had no right to get an L without her permission (even though I never used the L word). When I politely emailed it's not her concern, I'm free to get legal advice, and that if we don't use a guided property settlement service (which is a cheaper way to do it with legal advice), she realized it was the best option. I'm pleased because it will validate she is way off. And I know I'm good there because I already got a second opinion which confirmed her views are out of this world. It's just astounding to see the cake eating.

Anyway, I'm feeling more positive about getting some control, and at least one compromise. And now I'm off to meet an old friend who went through a nasty D. It'll be good to get some tips.
Posted By: LH19 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 10:05 AM
Yeah that’s why I’m not a fan of validating WS. So they know you better than anyone in the world so when you change your responses it comes off as either manipulative or condescending. That’s why my advice is always to practice on everyone else until it becomes natural.

So now you’re engaging in arguments which is never good in general especially with a wayward.

I think you might be confused on the term cake eating.

TT I have to be honest this was a disappointing update. All your posts are about what she’s doing and little about what improvements/changes you are making.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
In fact she has been rude at my validation attempts in email or in person.
Most LBS struggle with their first attempts at validation, often doing something else entirely, sometimes coming across as condescending. If you have not yet watched Brene Brown's 5-minute video on empathy, have a watch. That's the mindset you want to have when validating! When you do it right your WAS feels seen and heard and the effect can be dramatic. I was astonished at how quickly it turned around my situation and improved my relationships. If you've already read the validation cheat sheet and are making an earnest go at it, post the openings she gave, your tries at validation, and her responses. Those of us who have practice with it can offer feedback. As with any skill, practice and feedback are key.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by tt180
When I suggested one of her points required advice, she went off I had no right to get an L without her permission (even though I never used the L word). When I politely emailed it's not her concern, I'm free to get legal advice, and that if we don't use a guided property settlement service (which is a cheaper way to do it with legal advice), she realized it was the best option.
So, "Agree to a guided property settlement service or I'm calling a lawyer." It's great you're getting legal professionals involved. Is this in place of mediation? I agree with legal experts and without fighting you should both come out fine.
Posted By: Mumin Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 01:13 PM
Agree with LH you should focus more on you.
However I must say I "sense"/hear a bit of a changing mindset which is great!
Your wording sort of sounds like your moving from panic mode to orientation mode.

So whats your plans for yourself this weekend?
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/19/22 11:29 PM
I'll accept the 2x4 to focus on me. Yes, my mind is orientated to the future and to get through this mess.

I had a great GAL out with an ex-coworker. His big D experience was helpful and uplifting and I got some good advice on the process, and post-D life. We'll be meeting up more regularly and we will even be looking at a future business venture once I know what my life will be like post-D. It felt good.

I have a weekend GAL out with a poker friend for dinner, drinks, and watching rugby. He is fun and supportive, and will take my mind off things. I personally don't drink heaps anymore, but will have one or two.

Otherwise, not much on the weekend for me, just playing with kids as much as I can.

The hard stuff is a chat with STBXW on how to tell the kids AND about mediation for finances. It will require a lot of resolve and focus to ensure I'm not trapped into an emotional argument.

Traveler, it's a special mediation service that guides us through the process in the right legal framework. It also includes independent legal advice on both side. It's also massively cheaper then negotiating with Ls. This is what I wanted because STBXW needs to understand what she wants is not what the courts would agree to. Of course, I could be wrong and she's partially right, but at least it will be validated.

I'm also continuing IC with a psychologist who also experienced D, so it's also fantastic emotional support for me.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 01:25 AM
What's the DB view of family events? There are some nice things happening in my local area, and with a young D2, I have to work together with STBXW. Is it out of line to invite her to a family outing? I do recall it's ok from the other side, if she invites me.

This wouldn't be a date, it's purely a family event.

ATM, she's ghosting me (which is nice), and is organising family events without me and D2 (I look after D2 while D1 and S have times with her)
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by tt180
What's the DB view of family events?
tt180, given your push for a divorce, tactics to maximize R don't seem so important. I'd focus on what's best for your bond with your kids and your kids' bonds with each other.

Originally Posted by tt180
D2 (I look after D2 while D1 and S have times with her)
That's a strange schedule! I haven't seen siblings split up in the US since the 80s! Now everyone keeps their kids together to foster sibling bonds, which often endure longer than parental bonds.

Do Australian child psychologists support splitting up kids as best for the kids?

If not, why agree to such a schedule?

Originally Posted by tt180
There are some nice things happening in my local area, and with a young D2, I have to work together with STBXW. Is it out of line to invite her to a family outing?
If you can switch to a normal parenting schedule this melts away entirely. You go do things with all the children, or she goes and does things with all the children, no coordination.

In the meantime, if you feel it would be beneficial for D2, D1, and S to go to an event together, by all means propose it. That's key for me--what's best for my children.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 02:37 AM
So let me clarify. Its IHS, and yeah, Australia does not like split families. When we go down the path of a parenting plan, I'm prepared for disappointment because of the age of D2. What I'm saying is doing kid things in my sitch. Rewind a month ago, and she was gung ho on family events despite sep.Now she's purposely ignoring me and organising events with S and D1, or D2 and D1, but not all three (too much effort IMHO).

It does seem that since we both agree on D, and she's making an effort to exclude me, that I don't factor her into anything. I was just thinking from a 180 POV that I've historically been passive on organizing family events, so as something different, I'd suggest something with all 5 of us. But let me do it with just the kids, and not her. It doesn't make sense considering the current climate. She's still trying to pick fights to the point where D1 says "I never said that, you are exaggerating Mom."

I'm so thrilled to get back in touch with old friends, and to GAL like 300% more than where I was two months ago.
Posted By: Traveler Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by tt180
It does seem that since we both agree on D, and she's making an effort to exclude me, that I don't factor her into anything.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by tt180
I was just thinking from a 180 POV that I've historically been passive on organizing family events, so as something different, I'd suggest something with all 5 of us.
If you're going to make any 180s now, I'd focus on ones that will help with co-parenting, such as listening/validation, dropping control/manipulation, and setting boundaries.

Originally Posted by tt180
But let me do it with just the kids, and not her.
Great!

Originally Posted by tt180
It doesn't make sense considering the current climate. She's still trying to pick fights to the point where D1 says "I never said that, you are exaggerating Mom."
Attachment--reliving your grievances, factoring them in.

Originally Posted by tt180
I'm so thrilled to get back in touch with old friends, and to GAL like 300% more than where I was two months ago.
That's great! It's a process. (:
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 03:18 AM
Traveler, thanks for the support. Makes sense, I don't see any family events for the foreseeable future. If she asks, I'll probably agree, but I'll park that idea for now.

We are about to announce S to the kids, and I have no clue how they will respond. At least we've agreed on how to communicate the news, which is a positive step since to date we've hardly agreed on anything. No matter the truth, we've agreed to communicate that the decision mutual, to say that we love them very much, and to say not much else. If they ask questions, we'll be honest, but otherwise they need time to accept this big change.

It's all happening. I'm not afraid of the future, and I'm very clear on my next steps and where I want to go in my next chapter of my life.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 05:55 AM
toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by Kind18
Why feel terrible? She is a crazy WAW/WW who is writing bullshit cards to tug on your heart strings while she’s simultaneously smashing your marriage and family onto the rocks.
Agreed. That card was BS and I would've been offended receiving it. Don't set up some manipulation attempt to get her to react, but also don't lose sleep worrying about her reaction to it either.

Originally Posted by Kind18
If you keep the card, get emotional and tell her how much you love her and having a family with her - she thinks you’re weak, knows you’re a backup plan, and so is encouraged to continue with a no-consequence divorce -monkey branching 101.

If you bin the card, she tells her friends and family you’re an unemotional, rude [censored] - and they validate her that she’s doing the right thing because she shouldn’t have to live with someone like that.

See the theme here - IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU DO, you’re wrong in her eyes, and she’ll twist it to justify what she is doing.

So why keep trying to be right when you know you’re only ever going to be wrong?

Better to put that energy into you, than into an impossible task.
^This is spot on. So many times the LBS is in a lose-lose situation. No matter what they do, the WS/WAS thinks they acted wrong and are awful. The only way for the LBS to win is not play the game.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
ATM, she's ghosting me (which is nice), and is organising family events without me and D2 (I look after D2 while D1 and S have times with her)
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
If you can switch to a normal parenting schedule this melts away entirely. You go do things with all the children, or she goes and does things with all the children, no coordination.

I agree with Traveler. You and STBXW working out a defined plan on kid coverage would help a great deal. If you D, going forward it's going to be your time with the kids and her time with the kids. Not a mix of switching between them. There may be an occasional situation where one of you takes one kids to a specific event and the other covers, but that'll be an exception. You two really need to work out a custody plan. Having that will avoid confusion and also allow you to GAL.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
When we go down the path of a parenting plan, I'm prepared for disappointment because of the age of D2.
Can you clarify what you mean here?

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Now she's purposely ignoring me and organising events with S and D1, or D2 and D1, but not all three (too much effort IMHO).
That's not going to work moving forward. In terms of the kids it'll be all or nothing.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
It does seem that since we both agree on D, and she's making an effort to exclude me, that I don't factor her into anything.
That's going to happen. That's what a D is.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
But let me do it with just the kids, and not her.
Yep, think it's best to assume things are going to be that way moving forward.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
She's still trying to pick fights to the point where D1 says "I never said that, you are exaggerating Mom."
I'm confused. A 1yo said that?

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I'm so thrilled to get back in touch with old friends, and to GAL like 300% more than where I was two months ago.
Great!

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
We are about to announce S to the kids, and I have no clue how they will respond.
Would you clarify exactly how many kids you have and what their ages are? Maybe I'm confused but if they're 1yo and 2yos there's likely no much reaction or a big emotional conversation that would happen with kids much older. Have you read resources on handling this conversation with kids their age?
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 08:09 AM
D1 is 11 years old. She was pretty cool with the announcement, and very mature about the response. Said as long as we're happy, that's ok. She even said better to be separated and happy, than miserable and together. S, who is 8, took it hard.

What I'm trying to say about the kids is that D2 is just over 1. And because the kids can't be split, it's going to be hard to get any sleep over time with D1 and S, unless STBXW agrees. The court doesn't like splitting families, and I'm not willing to risk D2 with sleepovers given the potential impact later in life. So with that decision, and I know that the board here says go for 50/50, I'll probably have limited sleep overs with D1 and S.

In any event, I'm off to chat with a 3rd L and see what they say about settlement and custody. After seeing three Ls, I should have a good sense as to who I'm comfortable with.
Posted By: BL42 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 08:28 AM
toughtimes180,

I understand the kids' ages now. I'm used to the convention of S or D with the age afterwards (E.g., D11, S8, D1) as opposed to S1 for 1st son or D2 for 2nd daughter, so I thought you were saying you had a 2yo daughter, 1yo son, and 1yo daughter.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
D1 is 11 years old. She was pretty cool with the announcement, and very mature about the response. Said as long as we're happy, that's ok. She even said better to be separated and happy, than miserable and together.
Glad to hear she took it well. Continue to monitor her closely going into the teenage years.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
S, who is 8, took it hard.
Sorry, that's hard. He'll probably have a tough time for awhile but it'll get better over time.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
What I'm trying to say about the kids is that D2 is just over 1. And because the kids can't be split, it's going to be hard to get any sleep over time with D1 and S, unless STBXW agrees. The court doesn't like splitting families, and I'm not willing to risk D2 with sleepovers given the potential impact later in life. So with that decision, and I know that the board here says go for 50/50, I'll probably have limited sleep overs with D1 and S.
Again, IMO you're making too big a deal about D1 switching sleepovers. My now-D3 was 1yo when W moved out and handled the sleepovers fine. I continue to stress you should go for 50/50 in days and nights. All of your children should get used to sleeping at Mommy's and Daddy's. You do not want to set the precedent they sleep at mommy's regularly and just visit daddy. Just my $0.02. I've said this to you several times now, so I'll shut up about it going forward.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
In any event, I'm off to chat with a 3rd L and see what they say about settlement and custody. After seeing three Ls, I should have a good sense as to who I'm comfortable with.
Good. It's great your consulting multiple Ls. That knowledge is critical.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/21/22 11:52 AM
BL42, the reason I'm making a big deal is that D1 has trouble sleeping anywhere but home. All the research I've seen indicates that it's not recommended for under 4. She will have issues transitioning when she first moves out to Mom. Maybe as a starting point I can try daytime naps. I do feel guilty asking for 50/50 knowing it could cause emotional harm down the track. It's not out of fear of STBXW, or fear that I'm not capable. It's what is best for the child.

I understand your point and I'm glad to hear that it works for you. I'm open to changing my thinking on this, if I'm missing another pov.
Posted By: PeterB Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/22/22 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
STBXW sent me an anniversary card saving she loves me and thanks me for the wonderful family we created. It was actually touching. It was even a greeting card specifically for Exs.

I did say thanks and walked away, but not sure if I respond later, if at all.

I wanted to respond to this earlier so apologies for the delay. I think what you got here is a selfish attempt at making herself feel good. If you really felt "it was actually touching", then you have done a disservice to yourself Imho. You are in a particularly difficult sitch and I'm sorry to say that I think your WW has treated you quite poorly and you need to give primacy to that treatment. Once you do that you'll see her actions in a different light. To me the right response would be anywhere between complete indifference to actually throwing the card into the bin without much ado soon after reading it. No need to even say thanks imho. My WW told me a few weeks after BD that she will still give me gifts after D. At that time I told her that neither would I need anything from her nor should she give me anything. Fast forward a few months, I won't even respond to anything of that nature.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/22/22 07:54 AM
PeterB,

If you read the rest of the thread, there is some drama there, but I did bin it, and then as luck had it, she discovered as I was taking D1 out for a stroll. To clarify, it was touching in the sense that it was well written. But it's not that I felt moved, other than pissed off.

In any event, WW made a big deal in front of the kids that she's telling her entire family that we've separated. She's also back to her critique of any little thing that I do wrong, or whatever is wrong in her mind at that exact moment. I'm not reacting, but it's a good reminder of the toxicity of my M.

I had an awesome GAL with S8, 6 hour hike. I'm physically exhausted in a good way.

In a bad way, STBXW has reneged on her promise to attend my recommended settlement service. The one time where I think she actually compromised, she hasn't. It's frustrating, but it looks more and more like L will have to negotiate.
Posted By: PeterB Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/24/22 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
PeterB,
But it's not that I felt moved, other than pissed off.

That's great.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
In any event, WW made a big deal in front of the kids that she's telling her entire family that we've separated.

It is unnecessary to make a big deal in front of the kids and imho this can lead to negative effects on them. Btw, watch out for her trying to make you the villain in your children's eyes. It does not matter if they already have figured her out - she may still try to salvage some reputation out of this. Based on some reading my understanding is that WWs are especially keen on making the children believe that the father is the villain.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
She's also back to her critique of any little thing that I do wrong, or whatever is wrong in her mind at that exact moment. I'm not reacting, but it's a good reminder of the toxicity of my M.

Take this reminder as a blessing. My WW is hypercritical of everything I do wrong (wrong in her eyes). Yesterday she informed me tersely that she washed all the dishes (there were two of them and some spoons/forks, nothing of mine). And then added angrily that she had to do it only because I did not clear the dishwasher. We had just come back from a weekend activity one hour earlier, and I was fully occupied with housework after that while she was having her dinner. So, I didn't get the time to clear the dishwasher. Yet she thought that was a big problem. I was left wondering if she was really ignoring that I was busy (and hence deliberately nasty) or if she genuinely didn't see me running about across the floors doing multiple things. I assessed if the priority of things I did was wrong, but it was not. I also noted that clearing the dishwasher was neither on the agenda at that time nor did she request me to clear it. This is toxicity, and even more so post BD - pre-D. For LBS such as us, facing these situations while being able to identify them for what they are, allows us to put things in perspective while making our own decisions.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/24/22 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
Yesterday she informed me tersely that she washed all the dishes (there were two of them and some spoons/forks, nothing of mine). And then added angrily that she had to do it only because I did not clear the dishwasher. We had just come back from a weekend activity one hour earlier, and I was fully occupied with housework after that while she was having her dinner. So, I didn't get the time to clear the dishwasher. Yet she thought that was a big problem. I was left wondering if she was really ignoring that I was busy (and hence deliberately nasty) or if she genuinely didn't see me running about across the floors doing multiple things. I assessed if the priority of things I did was wrong, but it was not. I also noted that clearing the dishwasher was neither on the agenda at that time nor did she request me to clear it. This is toxicity, and even more so post BD - pre-D. For LBS such as us, facing these situations while being able to identify them for what they are, allows us to put things in perspective while making our own decisions.
Looks like a missed opportunity to validate her emotions.

There is much more to her anger than it appears on the surface.

W (tersely):"I washed all the dishes"
H:"Thank you. I appreciate how you keep the house clean."
W(angrily):"I had to do it only because you did not clear the dishwasher"
H:"You sound angry"
W (even more angry)"of course i am angry..(more words from her)"
H"I can see why that made you angry"

Let her be as angry as she wants. Show her you can "handle" her emotions. You stay calm and listen. Switch your thought process from arguing or justifying to She wants to be heard and understood.


The old timers here talked about "putting on your rain coat" and let the emotions from the spouse fly. I was ready for my X to do this, but she never did. She was already checked out. Put your raincoat on. Set boundaries when she is disrespectful.
Posted By: kml Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/24/22 05:45 PM
She could have simply said:
"hey, it's your turn to unload the dishwasher. Would you mind taking a break from what you're doing and do that so I can put my dishes in?"

Or - she could have rinsed her dishes and left them in the sink, or she could have unloaded the dishwasher herself.

Just trying to hold up a mirror of what "normal" behavior would look like.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/24/22 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
The old timers here talked about "putting on your rain coat" and let the emotions from the spouse fly. I was ready for my X to do this, but she never did. She was already checked out. Put your raincoat on. Set boundaries when she is disrespectful.
I love it. That's it!

Originally Posted by kml
Just trying to hold up a mirror of what "normal" behavior would look like.
Um, that's a good reminder. I've had this anger directed at me so long, I forget what normal looks like. I even recall a few years ago, thinking about why couldn't this sort of reaction be the norm? It would be nice if she were kinder in her complaints.

ATM, she's not taking responsibility for me communicating my weekly schedule (claiming she doesn't have time to read sms, then demands a weekly email on Friday), continues to attempt to break boundaries (talking about finances in person instead of email), and complains about not having enough time to herself (she isn't asking for it, that was my agreement with her, I'm not offering).

In any event, this isn't about STBXW. It's about me. I'm going to my 3rd L today and will make a decision. We're also investigating two mediators and will make a decision. I've also decided that once we have an agreed parenting plan I reserve the option for a quick exit if things get too uncomfortable. Two L's have said to me it isn't a problem other than STBXW might demand a settlement adjustment for the rent I pay. Which is a small price to pay for mental health.

One thing I really appreciate about my sitch is to find out where your friends stand. The friend that I thought was emotionally supportive is not so, and another friend, who I didn't really put enough effort to connect, has become the most supported and trusted friend in my life.
Posted By: Josh71 Re: I'm Back after 1st DB (4) - 05/24/22 10:57 PM
Continued:

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