So, STBXW is wanting to talk about finances. I expect she will want to separate some finances, not settle property, and probably want me to pay her more. In other words, avoid the entire big picture.
Short of assertively stating what I want and why, what are some DB strategies for this conversation? I like the "it doesn't work for me", or point out a concern and let her come up with a solution. Any other ideas?
I personally would let a lawyer handle it. I know you guys can do it cheaper by yourselves and if it’s fair even better. However, not many, or any, WAS are reasonable. What they said yesterday means nothing today. Etc etc. and I don’t want to see you get 85% of the way there and than it all blows up over a disagreement and you end up with lawyers anyway.
With a lawyer handling things you can GAL better, detach better, cut out a whole lot of reasons for contact. I think it would help you focus on you. And that is the divorce busting way.
But if that doesn’t work for you that’s ok too.
Yes, answer any of her requests with “I’ll think on that” then run it by your attorney. Do NOT agree to anything unless your attorney advises you to.
So, STBXW is wanting to talk about finances.
Great! Let her talk. This is your chance to actively listen to her plan and validate her feelings. No arguing, persuading, playing dumb, educating, etc. Take notes. Plan to sharfe everything you write down with your attorney. When you're ready to D, ask them to draft a proposal.
Short of assertively stating what I want and why, what are some DB strategies for this conversation?
Close mouth. Open ears.
I expect she will want to separate some finances,
and probably want me to pay her more.
"I'll think about that and get back to you."
"I'll think about that and get back to you."
Personally i'd tell her "i'll run this past my Lawyer and get back to you".
His WW just thinks he will role over at every demand. IMO, he needs to show her he isnt going to bend over and pick up the soap every single time.
Well, she was too tired today. And the finance conversation wasn't going to be about assets, but child support. Which is wierd because she said she wanted to shift all ongoing school expenses to my credit card and then ask me to pay CSA. Hmm. Child support is designed to cover all the costs of raising a child, including school fees. When that conversation comes, it will be a reality check.
Well, she was too tired today. And the finance conversation wasn't going to be about assets, but child support. Which is wierd because she said she wanted to shift all ongoing school expenses to my credit card and then ask me to pay CSA. Hmm. Child support is designed to cover all the costs of raising a child, including school fees. When that conversation comes, it will be a reality check.
Same old same old WW mentality - My WW did the EXACT same thing.
Expected me to pay for everything ( All Uniforms, school trips, shoes, trainers, clubs and any other out of school activities they participated in like swimming and gymnastics ) on top of the monthly payments she received from me ( which is more than her monthly salary ) - and i have them 12 nights a year less than her !!!
Reality will come as a shock to her.
This is why having a lawyer in these situations, to me, is mandatory. I've seen so many guys that try to nice their WAWs back by buying everything, agreeing to pay child support or spousal support BEFORE ordered to by a court, and it always backfires on them. Do not agree to anything financial without legal represenatation.
I won't. I'm armed with information and L. So when the time comes. I suspect it might be mediation of some sort. And that's OK.
I rang a relative who mentioned when my Mom visited me a few years ago she was traumatised at how STBXW treated her. When STBXW went away for a few days, near the end of Mom's visit, and it was me and the kids, she felt it was a happy peaceful time. What's interesting, is from STBXW's point of view, she always said my Mom was passive, and not helpful, and got in the way. Anyway.
Reflecting back, I realise there is so much bad behavior I let her get away with. I deserve better, and I deserve to demonstrate to my children a better way to parent. I'm feeling down at the moment, since I've spent hours helping STBXW clean the house, but I know this is the way forward.
Josh, great job doing your share to clean up the home even though it involved interacting with your WAS. Doing 50% of that sounds like the correct action, but couldn’t have been easy.
Josh, great job doing your share to clean up the home even though it involved interacting with your WAS. Doing 50% of that sounds like the correct action, but couldn’t have been easy.
No, it is not easy. My stomach is in knots all day. I'm going against everything inside to stay calm, detached, and focused. Luckily, I, have to work late this week, which is providing much needed distance. And I'm ignoring the obvious signs she's having an EA. I feel liberated that when I come home, I can focus on my kids, put them to bed, and f*** off to the gym.
Josh it will get easier. EA very predictable and all part of the script. Keep fighting the urges to do anything. The quicker you separate the quicker you start to enjoy life again.
Yeah, that is it, finding a life. She felt compelled to tell me her Mom is crying every night, but she knows so many divorced friends with lovely lives. I validated, but then cut tje conversation short and said I had to speak to D1.
Honestly, we aren't talking much, other than some daily banter about our days. And she's really keeping her distance, I love it. No criticisms, no complaints, no toxic comments. Quick, clear, sms to communicate about kids.
Besides looking down 8 hours of cleaning on the weekend, it actually feels quite nice.
Josh just out of curiosity how did that conversation go where you validated?
Yeah so telling her parents eased her anxiety so she last tense right now. She’s excited about her new future. If you want to keep it calm then apply zero pressure.
For validation, I just replied with every statement like, "that must feel good", or "i can see how that is annoying." I think the comment about her Mum I said "yeah, it's an emotional time." What I noticed is I'm getting better at it because she'll sometimes agree with my validation.
There is zero pressure atm on anything. It actually feels like I'm ghosting her, but I'm not. I'm actually able to do house things, play with kids, and then go to the gym. This is a GAL that works for me.
I assume she is excited about the future, but I know her well enough that it's also a façade for nerves. She had to remind me that I said "it might not end up like you think." I said that a week ago when she was going on about how I can drop by anytime, etc. She is going to have it rough with the three kids crammed at her parents.
There is zero pressure atm on anything. It actually feels like I'm ghosting her, but I'm not. I'm actually able to do house things, play with kids, and then go to the gym. This is a GAL that works for me.
This is good. Keep it that way.
I assume she is excited about the future, but I know her well enough that it's also a façade for nerves.
Yeah with excitement comes nerves. You really want to make her nervous let her know by actions that her safety net is gone permanently.
She had to remind me that I said "it might not end up like you think." I said that a week ago when she was going on about how I can drop by anytime, etc.
I would be clearer with your boundaries. "That is not going to happen".
She is going to have it rough with the three kids crammed at her parents.
She's moving in with her parents?
I assume she is excited about the future, but I know her well enough that it's also a façade for nerves. She had to remind me that I said "it might not end up like you think." I said that a week ago when she was going on about how I can drop by anytime, etc. She is going to have it rough with the three kids crammed at her parents.
This was not validation. Remember, trying to reason with her with reality is a cheese less tunnel. The more you respond like this the more she will be convinced that you are the problem.
Yeah with excitement comes nerves. You really want to make her nervous let her know by actions that her safety net is gone permanently.
Precisely. She's going to a family gathering shortly, and I made it clear that I won't be going. She lost her sounding board. And I've lost a father I never had.
She is going to have it rough with the three kids crammed at her parents.
She's moving in with her parents?
Yes, temporarily. Gives time for school term to run out before moving on. I'll be in an apartment.
This was not validation. Remember, trying to reason with her with reality is a cheese less tunnel. The more you respond like this the more she will be convinced that you are the problem.
I know. It was those early moments where I lacked control.
And I've lost a father I never had.
I am sorry. This is most likely why you have an anxious attachment style.
My attachment style is predominantly avoidant, but there are anxious components. Hers is anxious.
I didn't see the book Attachment on the reading list. Good read and pretty blunt about things.
I've lost a father I never had.
You don't HAVE to drop your relationship with her family. Sometimes LBS have a fantasy the WAS's family will choose the LBS *over* the WAS long-term. That's rare. What's not rare is some people who had good relationships with their ex-inlaws maintain them through a divorce. You are no longer their daughter's husband, but you are still bound to them as their grandchildren's father.
My XGF is invited to any ex-inlaw family gatherings where XH is not invited. Besides maintaining that relationship, the ex-inlaws get more time with her D and S.
You choose what works for you.
Read "Slay your Fear" by Adam Smith
You don't HAVE to drop your relationship with her family. Sometimes LBS have a fantasy the WAS's family will choose the LBS *over* the WAS long-term. That's rare. What's not rare is some people who had good relationships with their ex-inlaws maintain them through a divorce. You are no longer their daughter's husband, but you are still bound to them as their grandchildren's father.
Emotionally, I cannot do that right now. Indeed, they wouldn't take sides, and would still treat me the same as before. I just don't have the headspace, I'd feel miserable inside and don't think I could fake looking like all is well. I appreciate it's my lizard brain telling me to avoid and wanting to just move on already. I'm using up enough resolve to keep it together at home.
Read "Slay your Fear" by Adam Smith
I'll check it out. Just read the first few pages, seems like a good read.
Emotionally, I cannot do that right now. Indeed, they wouldn't take sides, and would still treat me the same as before. I just don't have the headspace, I'd feel miserable inside and don't think I could fake looking like all is well. I appreciate it's my lizard brain telling me to avoid and wanting to just move on already. I'm using up enough resolve to keep it together at home.
Both options are fine! If you may revisit in the future, when they reach out to you, consider declining the specific invitation or for a period of time, rather than making sweeping statements about your relationship going forward.
Thank you. I agree, a statement of no contact with relatives is a sweeping statement. I'm speaking from hurt, and sure, it will probably change over time.
"Slay Your Fear" is great. It's like compressed IC. I can relate to some of the scenarios, and see behaviors of where I used to be. I really appreciate the specific improvement steps. What resonates is the concept of people versus outcomes. That is truly a different way of framing in a way I never considered. When I reflect on my R history, I never considered the people approach, and can see how my reactions on outcomes contributed to my current sitch. And moving forward, even now, I can see that. I can see how it can help me to keep things grounded on our new relationship.
Thank you for the tip, I can't wait to see what the other chapters look like.
You’re welcome! Thought you might like it. It’s like the crib notes of No More MR. Nice Guy.
You’re welcome! Thought you might like it. It’s like the crib notes of No More MR. Nice Guy.
Now that you mention it, it is. It really explains about why I let people cross the red line, passive behavior, and outcomes versus people. I really want to reframe my thoughts on XW in this regard.
Today I feel really down. A lot of worry in my head It has to do with upcoming conversations on child agreements, finances, the fear of living alone. My energy is used up to "fake it until you make it", and I still have my stomach in knots. Taking a cue from the book, If I reframe this with core principals, I see that honesty, fairness, and love are what I'm about. These conversations are about what is best for the kids and what is fair for both of us.
Today I feel really down. A lot of worry in my head It has to do with upcoming conversations on child agreements, finances, the fear of living alone. My energy is used up to "fake it until you make it", and I still have my stomach in knots. Taking a cue from the book, If I reframe this with core principals, I see that honesty, fairness, and love are what I'm about. These conversations are about what is best for the kids and what is fair for both of us.
Josh, do you still see a legal agreement on child custody and child support as a conversation? BL42 reminded you that YOU choose whether you are a primary (50%) or secondary (<50%) parent, to use Australian legal terms. For child support, once you've determined custody %, there's usually a formula to determine what you're on-the-hook for.
Are you hoping you can persuade her to take less $$$ than the courts would award?
Yes, it is a conversation this w/e. I know there is a suggestion of full 50% for all children, but I'm not sure how that works for D2 when having her overnight will be disruptive. I'm aware of the CSA formula, and I need to ask L if this applies when living together. I understood that if XW is primary, she pays everything and then gets CSA. Again, I'll consult with L.
I'm not wishing anything about $$$, that is not my motivation. It's about ensuring 50% time with D1, S, and the maximum amount of time with D2 that doesn't cause disruption. If it comes up, "that doesn't work for me."
I understood that if XW is primary, she pays everything and then gets CSA.
If Australia is like the USA, the person who receives child support also decides how to spend it. It sounds like your STBXW prioritizes being a good mom and can be trusted to fulfill that role well so you are fortunate there. I only mention that to prepare you--some non-primary custodians get grumpy their money isn't used the way they expect.
Today I feel really down...My energy is used up to "fake it until you make it", and I still have my stomach in knots.
Very normal. For me, I had/have to get out of my head. Going for a walk and being in the moment (or motorcycle ride etc). I am sure you have emotional release work that needs to happen. Not sure if you have had a good cry or releasing some anger. Lots of people cry in empty parking lots, shower etc... Making time for other things besides the relationship issue is important.
Keep taking it one day at a time. Just know everything happens for a reason.
Not sure if you have had a good cry or releasing some anger.
Daily for both
You’re welcome! Thought you might like it. It’s like the crib notes of No More MR. Nice Guy.
Now that you mention it, it is. It really explains about why I let people cross the red line, passive behavior, and outcomes versus people. I really want to reframe my thoughts on XW in this regard.
Today I feel really down. A lot of worry in my head It has to do with upcoming conversations on child agreements, finances, the fear of living alone. My energy is used up to "fake it until you make it", and I still have my stomach in knots. Taking a cue from the book, If I reframe this with core principals, I see that honesty, fairness, and love are what I'm about. These conversations are about what is best for the kids and what is fair for both of us.
Josh just remember those lines can get blurry and you start making concessions in an attempt to nice your W back.
You don't HAVE to drop your relationship with her family. Sometimes LBS have a fantasy the WAS's family will choose the LBS *over* the WAS long-term. That's rare. What's not rare is some people who had good relationships with their ex-inlaws maintain them through a divorce. You are no longer their daughter's husband, but you are still bound to them as their grandchildren's father.
Emotionally, I cannot do that right now. Indeed, they wouldn't take sides, and would still treat me the same as before. I just don't have the headspace, I'd feel miserable inside and don't think I could fake looking like all is well. I appreciate it's my lizard brain telling me to avoid and wanting to just move on already. I'm using up enough resolve to keep it together at home.
Hello Josh. I was looking over your recent posts and had some experience to share about the extended family. It is a complicated thing and there is no right or wrong way about maintaining those relationships (or not), so I wanted to just share my experience in case it gives you more to think about.
This is my second divorce. My first MR was over 15 years. His family was loving towards me but I felt like I needed space and I needed to give them space, so I distanced myself. There were no children involved so that also made it easier. They only showed me love before this decision, so there wasn’t an event. I just thought I was doing what I should do. Well, years later, I miss that family so much and the way I pulled away created distance. I did reconnect with my exFIL and he was lovely. So that has been a blessing. I’m still working on maintaining a relationship with him while I am going through now my second D. I’m saying that I grew to regret my decisions about how I handled this and felt a deep loss in those relationships.
The MR I am leaving now is a shorter one an involves my being a step-mom. I had a wonderful relationship with his family prior and this time I am doing my best to remain in contact. I am careful about what I say about the situation or my XH directly, and I know they see some sides of it, but I also haven’t been quiet about how hard this has been for me or that I am still struggling. I can do that while making it clear that I don’t want the MR anymore, but that doesn’t mean I’m in a happy place. They have been warm, lovely, supportive and admire and appreciate that I am not leaving the relationship I’ve built with the boys I helped raise. So far, it’s going well. All I can do is go into with with my heart open and be aware that they will always side with my XH because he’s family, but I am doing my best to avoid any ‘taking sides’ situations in this…as best as I can anyway. I think you can show you will be okay and will be putting yourself first (and living your best life) while still being authentic about the hard feelings that go with the loss or situation you are dealing with.
I’ve come to realize in old age (ha) that if you don’t water relationships, they die. So, if these relationships are important to you, you may not want to stop watering them. If the “father I never had” has had that level of impact on you in a positive way, then it only stands to reason that maintaining that relationship might give you sustenance opposed to drain or misery.
It’s an awkward situation for sure when a split happens, especially when children are involved. Remember, it’s awkward for them too and they have their own feelings and struggles about it. You mention that you feel you have to hide that you feel miserable. Why do you feel that way? Is it you wanting to avoid those feelings, or do you just feel overwhelmed and the effort is too much? If you imagine being honest about where your heart is but not attacking your W in a conversation with a family member, how do you imagine they would respond? Is it loving? Is it uncomfortable? Have you tested the waters? Have they invalidated your feelings before, or are you just afraid they will?
El
Ek,
Thank you so much for your perspective. My comment on hiding my misery relates to the DB process. I'm trying so hard in front of XW to show all is well, regardless of what is inside. I'm not avoiding them, I'm just not expressing them in my family house.
My relationship with XW in family gatherings, I can assure you, would be as if nothing changed. There would be no attacking or comments, she's careful to present the best view. Her parents are non-judgemental my nature. I have no doubt about that. My hesitation comes from fear and avoidance. I fear I won't be able to let go, I fear to be reminded of happier days. I fear a time where I haven't moved on, and she brings a new partner to these gatherings. Or the reverse, that I meet someone, move on, and these family events, fade away. I fear this could be a pattern of boundary violations, I see a future where XW will call me up on my days with children to visit her family.
I'm sure if I went this w/e to the family function, all would be fine. But I don't feel fine, I have a lot of packing to do, which I didn't plan for. I'm still hurting. I'm not sure I could present a strong enough face.
These all sound like excuses, but it's all so fresh. I think I'll skip this one, but maybe if there is one next month, I'll feel stronger and attend.
Not sure if you have had a good cry or releasing some anger.
Daily for both
Josh, it's really good to let those emotions out. I'm here to tell you, as miserable as it feels in the moment, this will not last. You will get through this. You have some great support here.
Josh
I don't know if you saw my response to you here?
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2933433#Post2933433Give me some more information and I will help you and then I can remove the post where you tell me - if necessary
Josh, it's really good to let those emotions out. I'm here to tell you, as miserable as it feels in the moment, this will not last. You will get through this. You have some great support here.
I feel supported here, more than anywhere else in RL.
Well, one the plus side, STBXW is responding well to boundaries. No BS arguing if I'm in her way or inconveniencing her. I can even see her trying to prevent outbursts when a conversation goes down a path she doesn't agree with. And the one time today where she tried something, I shot it down. Respectfully, of course. I wish it was like this, like in 2009! Lol
She unloaded a bit with me about how her plan to move in to her parents won't work. Her Mom said no, and I agreed and validated that it was unfair and disappointing that her own parent wasn't supportive. Now STBXW has more stress because she'll have to find a three bedroom unit that is pet friendly, or disrupt the kids school year, and move to a different suburb. I know I did a great job validating.
I reread NMMNG. So much more work for me and IC.
Today, I feel rested. Had a GAL night out with work mates, and despite feeling like crap, I had a great time.
STBXW and I have a school function today. It will involve a 40 minute drive each way. Not looking forward to it. But I'm not to care about any of her reactions, right?
Did I blow it? We had a nice dinner, talked about how things will work post-separation. Then she talked about settlement, with the question, do you agree on the split? I said it was in the email I sent earlier today where I responded to all your questions. She says she didn't read it, let's talk about it since we are here together. And then I said I didn't agree, and here's why.
Emotional rage, guilt, accusations of true colors, tears, "You aren't thinking about the kids like me, you are thinking like a corporate ahole, I will never forgive you, you'll need to take me to court." I've never seen a turn from pleasantries to pure rage like this. I then say, which isn't validating, "I guess you need a lawyer". I know that didn't help. I really didn't know how to validate that sort of anger, I couldn't even think at that point. I didn't raise my voice, but I guess I could have said let's talk about this later. It was just such a friendly conversation, I didn't think it would come to this.
I actually don't feel bad about the incident. In fact, my knots in my stomach are gone. I drove her to the school function and said I'm going home.
I do feel I created an escalation, but then I don't own her emotions. I felt I had to stand up for myself.
Josh_T,
Time for some tough love...
Did you blow it in the sense that if you had acted differently it would change the situation? Probably not. Many cases here seem to be too far gone that no matter what people do it the result of the marriage is the same. However, it sounds like you didn't handle the conversation in a DB manner by putting guilt, judgement, and pressure on her...and that likely escalated things and may have consequences for your divorce agreement.
We had a nice dinner, talked about how things will work post-separation.
Many would argue you should be out GAL'ing instead of having dinner and discussions with her.
Emotional rage, guilt, accusations of true colors, tears, "You aren't thinking about the kids like me, you are thinking like a corporate ahole, I will never forgive you, you'll need to take me to court." I've never seen a turn from pleasantries to pure rage like this.
Telling your spouse they're acting like an a-hole and you'll never forgive them is not "loving detachment" or "DB'ing". Insulting, putting guilt and pressure...etc. is only going to get her more angry at you and potentially make the D ugly. It's not going to all of a sudden make her see your side and change.
I then say, which isn't validating, "I guess you need a lawyer".
You told her to lawyer up??? Talk about escalating the legal angle of the situation. Time to dig in for an expensive battle. Your ideal case was you were consulting an L but she didn't. You probably just ensured she will now.
I know that didn't help. I really didn't know how to validate that sort of anger, I couldn't even think at that point. I didn't raise my voice, but I guess I could have said let's talk about this later. It was just such a friendly conversation, I didn't think it would come to this.
We've repeatedly told you NOT to discuss divorce terms with her in person and go through email or even an L if needed. You're not listening, and will have to learn the hard way.
I actually don't feel bad about the incident.
You may regret it when you hear from the L you told her to get.
Josh_T - You really need to stop interactions with her, as you can't help from making them emotional. Here's what I told you 5 days ago:
*Stop ALL emotional interactions with STBXW.
*Deal with any divorce-related communications through email, NOT verbally.
*Consult with a lawyer ASAP.
*DO NOT sell the house in the next two weeks. Making the best decision is better than rushing into a permanent sale based on a perception of a market.
*Forget any notion of keeping a nuclear family close post-D (duplex, renting in the same building, pop-ins in the morning...etc.).
*Don't agree to anything less than 50/50 time with your children. I don't know Australia law - sounds like Kind18 has a good understanding - but don't cave here unless your L advises you have no choice.
And here's what I told you 4 days ago:
This is NOT a conversation you need to have with WAW. This is a decision you need to make and then strategize with your L on the best approach. Feel free to counsel with your family, friends, doctor, phycologist, priest, or whoever else you think may help, but I'd be very wary having this conversation with WAW based on the results of other conversations you've detailed in this thread.
Josh you should be proud! You stood up to the bully!
Her actions didn’t constitute validation they constituted boundaries.
She’ll never admit it but I bet she respected you for the first time in a long time. That’s why it’s making you feel so uncomfortable. You are use to kissing her arse.
I can not make it any clearer you can’t push her away she’s already long gone. Everything is what’s best for Josh and kids.
BL one of us misinterpreted the convo. I took it as her saying I’ll never forgive you etc. Josh please clarify.
BL one of us misinterpreted the convo. I took it as her saying I’ll never forgive you etc. Josh please clarify.
Yeah...not sure we've ever had such drastically different takes! I initially took it as Josh having the emotional outburst but re-reading I could see it being his wife which if that's the case then what you wrote makes sense.
I can not make it any clearer you can’t push her away she’s already long gone. Everything is what’s best for Josh and kids.
^Agreed, 100%. Focus on you and the kids. Do not concern yourself with her needs.
BL one of us misinterpreted the convo. I took it as her saying I’ll never forgive you etc. Josh please clarify.
It was her, not me.
Sorry I don't have the power to do what you asked - other than deleting that post - which I did.
Try going up to edit profile and change it there.
Whether there is anyone that does have the power to change it or not is questionable right now.
I can delete or edit posts. But that is about it.
I didn't mean to have dinner, it just happened since we realised there was extra time before the school function. At least we had a meaningful chat about parenting. And again, 30 minutes prior, the conversation on duplex came up. I said I couldn't afford it, and that was that.
I agree, that's it, I again slid against my agreement for email only. I learnt my lesson. If she gets an L or not, I believe it is required to make any agreement binding. I fell for the emotion, yet again.
The mood was so cold, I said I'm not attending the school function. I dropped her off and went home. She'll have to uber herself.
I'll let her cool down from that. She promised me the detailed numbers I asked for. I have half a mind to do it for her, to start the conversation, but atm this doesn't sound like a good idea.
From a DB POV, I've been nothing but happy all day, and never raised my voice at all in the evening. Except for the L comment, nothing else said was anything other than factual and what I want.
One thing my ex said to me when he was divorcing me was that he had been told “if it’s a fair settlement neither of us will feel like we’ve gotten everything we’ve wanted”. This was very true.
She wants to have these conversations with you because she wants to bully you into the settlement she wants. Never respond to her requests - just say “I’ll discuss that with my attorney”. Just that: “ I’ll discuss that with my attorney”. Do not agree to ANYTHING. And remind her that two households cannot live as cheaply as one, so neither of you can expect the same lifestyle after divorce that you have now.
Btw - I just had a random thought about her statement that she makes as much as you - could she be lying? Do you file your taxes jointly, have you seen proof that she’s earning that much? Seems unlikely that it would be a lie, but if it was, might explain some of her freaking out about finances.
Josh, I'm sorry that didn't play out as you hoped and planned. I agree you BOTH escalated the situation and this is the path to more expensive and contentious divorces. The question is, what will you learn from this for future interactions? Are you only learning to use e-mail, or can you internalize 1-2 other nuggets to avoid future mistakes and consequences?
I really didn't know how to validate that sort of anger,
The only way to win is to stop having these conversations. BL42 and I have said--decide what you want, communicate in writing, wait 2-3 days for emotions to settle, pass anything you write to her related to finances or custody by your attorney. My divorce was cheap and easy. Ready2Change still has all his e-mails. Get yourself onto the easiest possible path.
The mood was so cold, I said I'm not attending the school function.
Consider adding some calming techniques to your repertoire. There are apps like Headspace, stress balls, etc. Driving solo may have helped. You likely don't want to back out of functions related to your kids. Being the parent who knew the teachers and other parents and their friends definitely had advantages for me related to custody, control, and closeness to my children. Unless you want your STBXW to be the primary for those. My XW is totally fine with that.
Thanks for the tips. I do meditate, which keeps me in check. In this case, it helps me to not raise my voice and to play the same emotional game. It doesn't help me, I find, to have constant emotional control. But it helps me to bd aware much quicker.
She doesn't make more money than me. What she was saying is that she brought more to the marriage in terms of property which was used to buy the family home. During our marriage, I funded every else. In Au, settlements are rarely 50/50 to reflect the contribution of housework. Just not to thd extent she thinks.
Thank you. Things have taken a 180 that's for sure. And I'm not sure if it can recover amicably. But that was going to happen later, if not now. I'm glad it's out in the open, she knows I'm not going to be pushed over. This morning total cold shoulder. No friendly talk, nothing but one question , "How do you feel about leaving me last night?" me: "nothing, it was your choice." she: "I thought so." Another bait, I know. It's so hard to DB in this state as she knows how to manipulate to make me look like the bad guy, and my natural state is to get defensive and push away. I'm not going to dwell on it any more, this is just her personality. Maybe things will calm over time, I don't know. For me, it's another example of no compromise, symbolic of our entire relationship. No more looking back at what I could have done, how it could have worked. Just about me and kids.
She left early in the morning for her parents with the kids. Today I get time to myself, and to do more clean up of the house. Tomorrow I have another IC session.
Josh if you want something to listen to on cleanup. Listen to some Peter Crone videos.
I'm not sure if it can recover amicably. But that was going to happen later, if not now.
This escalation didn't have to happen. You're not the first to lose their temper and make things worse while talking about money and custody, but some of us avoided that. I'm glad you're resolving that *you* will only reply *by e-mail*--you can't control how she messages you--and that will certainly help. Can you take on-board any of our other suggestions?
I'd love to see you avoid making some of the other mistakes we're warning you about! (a) Wait 2-3 days before any response to let your emotions settle, (b) Pass all responses by an attorney so they can vet them, (c) After learning what you're entitled to, decide what you want and make it so instead of checking in on her opinion first.
The mood was so cold, I said I'm not attending the school function.
Consider adding some calming techniques to your repertoire. There are apps like Headspace, stress balls, etc. Driving solo may have helped. You likely don't want to back out of functions related to your kids. Being the parent who knew the teachers and other parents and their friends definitely had advantages for me related to custody, control, and closeness to my children. Unless you want your STBXW to be the primary for those. My XW is totally fine with that.
In this case, it helps me to not raise my voice and to play the same emotional game. It doesn't help me, I find, to have constant emotional control.
Josh, it's great meditation helps you not yell. That's a solid start. I'm not suggesting you work on calming techniques until you have "constant emotional control"--let's be more realistic. Within 5-15 minutes your STBXW calmed down enough to attend a school function and you did not. Being able to calm down within 5-15 minutes enough to not skip events related to your kids seems like a laudable 180, one good for Josh and his kids and his relationships.
one question , "How do you feel about leaving me last night?" me: "nothing, it was your choice." she: "I thought so." Another bait, I know.
You say above you CHOSE not to attend. Why did you shift the responsibility to her?
She left early in the morning for her parents with the kids. Today I get time to myself, and to do more clean up of the house. Tomorrow I have another IC session.
Enjoy your day off! Aggressive cleaning can work off some anger. Have some fun today, too!
Thanks. Yeah, I felt leaving was the better option rather than being in a foul mood, or bickering with her away from ear shot. I didn't have the capacity to calm so quickly. Easier to avoid. But I see the improvement there.
I dropped off a Mother's Day gift from the kids at her parents.
Telling her she chose to attend is an aggressive response. I get it. I could have said I felt bad not attending, but didn't want to because I didn't want to create more conflict. The thing is, we would have attended the function with jer ice cold. It would have been obvious.
From her POV, it validated the feelings of abandonment in our marriage. I can see that.
What's the DB way of IHS and WAS not enforcing child disciplines? I've constantly dealt with her back peddling on punishment, to the detriment of my kids. I call it out, and I usually get excuses back. I've never been able to crack this one.
Another sore point in our relationship, inconsistent discipline. It's quite frustrating.
Josh,
Nothing you can do other then try to have a calm conversation with her. You can’t control how she acts. This is an issue I had with my exw while married and now divorced. She thinks yelling at them is productive.
Why oh WHY did you have a conversation with her? Or go out to dinner? Complete waste of time.
You want her to THINK she can’t get dinner with you. When she asks, say no, I have plans, and then leave the house.
Once you agreed to dinner, and engaged in a conversation, the damage was done. After that point, it doesn’t matter what you said or did - nothing was going to stop her going berserk.
STOP STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE POWERPOINT.
“How do you feel about leaving me last night?”
“Haven’t really thought about it. Anyway, I’m off to the gym!”
Josh, Recognizing you control how are you discipline the children, and she controls how she disciplines the children. That’s the answer to almost any question where you’re asking how you can control her behavior. You only control your behavior.
You are doubtless feeling the loss of control. Can you also see it for her speaking up about her preferences when it comes to disciplining the children? Do you think she may have a point in some situations? This is another opportunity to take some time to cool down, be curious about her perspective, and find common ground. Alternatively, you could vent, and lose even more control.
Why oh WHY did you have a conversation with her? Or go out to dinner? Complete waste of time.
You want her to THINK she can’t get dinner with you. When she asks, say no, I have plans, and then leave the house.
Once you agreed to dinner, and engaged in a conversation, the damage was done. After that point, it doesn’t matter what you said or did - nothing was going to stop her going berserk.
STOP STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE POWERPOINT.
“How do you feel about leaving me last night?”
“Haven’t really thought about it. Anyway, I’m off to the gym!”
Thanks, this is the sort of thing I can't get my head around. It's also hard when I have kids in the house, but I guess I could just say I'm going for a walk, and be back in 30 minutes.
Yes, I am sticking my finger in the PowerPoint. As I said, it was a crafty move on her part, as we had a common function to go to, and we were rather early. The better option would have been to say, no I just want to go early, no dinner. Or, we should take separate cars because I have to go after.
Actually, when her Mom came to look after the kids, I could have just left and said "see you there."
The problem I have with this approach I have generally, is I can't just walk out when I have child duties. But I can certainly do that after D2 is in bed, the older kids are fine on their own.
In any event, I'm refreshed today as I spent yesterday decluttering the house. I fell asleep exhausted. She sent an email on detailed financials, which I'll reply in a couple of days. It was intertwined with emotional "facts" and of course not in line with what L said. Rather than put it all out, I'm leading her towards where I'm going with each point. She's not dumb, she will see right through it, so it will give her time to accept the outcome. We have plenty of time before the house sells, which is went all this needs to be agreed on.
You are doubtless feeling the loss of control. Can you also see it for her speaking up about her preferences when it comes to disciplining the children? Do you think she may have a point in some situations?
Yes, many times I feel loss of control, and many times I feel her perspective is valid. But no to setting boundaries with kids and sticking to consequences. See, the pattern of not sticking to boundaries applies to the kids as well. But I get it. I just reminded her that punishment should start at the time of the infraction, not allow the kids to indulge for the rest of the day, and then apply the consequences the next day. Her response was classic "You weren't there, and I forgot."
Fark, IHS DBing is mentally exhausting. I've had the perfect db day. Delaying the response to smses, ignoring pointless messages, setting boundaries on vague requests for child minding, ignoring subtly hostile comments, rebuffed attempts at emotional unloads, and dealing with 30 minutes of her just disappearing in her room while I look after baby. At least I got awesome quality kid time while avoiding her company.
I'm actually wondering at some point, for my sanity, I should leave. I'm not there yet, but I still can't eat much, and have trouble sleeping.
Nope. Legally you could screw your self. You gotta tough it out. When is she moving to parents?
Fark, IHS DBing is mentally exhausting. I've had the perfect db day. Delaying the response to smses, ignoring pointless messages, setting boundaries on vague requests for child minding, ignoring subtly hostile comments, rebuffed attempts at emotional unloads, and dealing with 30 minutes of her just disappearing in her room while I look after baby. At least I got awesome quality kid time while avoiding her company.
I'm actually wondering at some point, for my sanity, I should leave. I'm not there yet, but I still can't eat much, and have trouble sleeping.
tough, I know it is difficult, and I can relate. However, over time, it does get easier. IHS does require a level of discipline that most of us do not have. In my case I was terrible for the first 6-8 weeks. Then the pendulum begun to swing back. Where initially I was 10% of the time decent at DBing, and 90% awful at it, by 3 months in had started to get towards 90% being decent and 10% awful.
Here is the thing, you have to stay busy. GAL is not a nice-to-have. It is a must. That's why the general advice for LBSs, especially in IHS, is to get a childcare schedule in place, and then when it isn't your turn, you are out GAL. I used to have to repeat this a lot on the forum, but: Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst. If you continue to struggle and you don't start getting to 50%-50% on the ratio above then you probably aren't GAL enough. I believe that GAL is foundation on which self-improvement and detachment are built. The better the LBS gets at GAL the better they DB.
So just keep working. Leaving, while a band aid, opens up a lot of other issues that a lot of LBSs have to deal with. It is not the panacea that those in IHS often think it is.
I'm actually wondering at some point, for my sanity, I should leave. I'm not there yet, but I still can't eat much, and have trouble sleeping.
I wouldn't leave as 1) that may have negative consequences to custody and finances unless your lawyer advises otherwise, 2) you've not hammered out overnights with D2, so you choosing to leave her behind may be very hard on her.
Fark, IHS DBing is mentally exhausting. I've had the perfect db day. Delaying the response to smses, ignoring pointless messages, setting boundaries on vague requests for child minding, ignoring subtly hostile comments, rebuffed attempts at emotional unloads, and dealing with 30 minutes of her just disappearing in her room while I look after baby. At least I got awesome quality kid time while avoiding her company.
Since you have an avoidant side, be sure you're DB'íng e.g. treating her like a Starbucks barista you're being friendly to on your way to GAL and NOT giving her the silent treatment like you might be prone to. Many of us have a tendency towards anxious or avoidant attachments, so I don't mean that in a bad way, but we must be conscientious to avoid those tendencies.
I hope as you get better at DB techniques like not engaging in emotionally heavy conversations, GAL, and 180s this all becomes easier. When I began listening and validating and not talking so much, there was a huge change in the dynamics of my relationship.
I control me, you control you took a lot of work to make my mantra!
I hope as you get better at DB techniques like not engaging in emotionally heavy conversations, GAL, and 180s this all becomes easier. When I began listening and validating and not talking so much, there was a huge change in the dynamics of my relationship.
I control me, you control you took a lot of work to make my mantra!
I hope so. I feel particularly down today since STBXW FIL emailed me. He was supportive, but basically said based on what she said, we probably couldn't have any meaningful conversation. I'm guessing it relates to the blow up we had at dinner.
As I've said before, I can't control her reaction, she would have reacted as such down the line anyhow. My undoing was for bringing that forward.
I feel sad, but I told FIL to support his D and that in time, we can rekindle our relationship.
toughtimes180,
Sorry you're struggling. You're right, IHS can be emotionally draining.
Based on what I read from the start of your initial thread 3 years ago I'd bet you're going to A) get some relief once the separation happens and B) look back on this and realize how much happier you can be when not in this relationship. You've talked about being "neglectful" and her being "emotionally abusive" from the time you two started living together even before marriage (your words, not mine) and she's been open about planning her exit for 7 years now, more than half your relationship. Let go, find relief, and work towards making your life happy.
You're getting lots of good advice. A few notes I'll re-enforce from others' posts:
- You can't control her; you can only control you. Reflect on this and truly understand it.
- Your relationship with her family will not be the same. It just won't. You may not be at odds but you won't be as close. She's their daughter. It is what it is.
- Do not move out. She can leave if she wants.
- Drop the emotional talks; communicate anything important through email and run by an L.
- I second LH's Peter Crone recommendation.
- Arrange a schedule or agreement with STBXW about kid coverage.
- Use all that time you're not responsible for the kids to GAL like crazy.
Hang in there. You'll get through this and realize much better life can be.
BL42, this is a good summary of what you all said and your points are actually the things I need to remember. Thank you so much.
You are 100%, I know my life will be better after. For the first time in my life, I have no doubt about what I want, and my initial reaction, hours after BD is telling. I said to myself, she did me a service, and I'm finally free. I've already felt the positive improvement in these short tremulous weeks.
You have refreshed my mood for today, thank you.
STBXW is asking again about going in vacation. Not that it matters now, but should I ask how long the EA has been going on? Or is it too late, and let it be. It could be a knee jerk reaction, post BD, but I can't help but think it's been going on for a while now.
STBXW is asking again about going in vacation. Not that it matters now, but should I ask how long the EA has been going on?
What are you trying to accomplish by asking this question?
Or is it too late, and let it be.
Too late for what?
It could be a knee jerk reaction, post BD, but I can't help but think it's been going on for a while now.
Probably has. What changes if its been a year versus a day?
STBXW is asking again about going in vacation.
Can you explain this? She's asking about going on vacation with you, or getting you to watch the kids so she can go without you (and you expect meeting up with EA partner)? If it's the latter you're likely to feel like trying to block her from going away. But to our comments about control you're not going to be able to stop her forever. She will find a way. Sorry.
Not that it matters now, but should I ask how long the EA has been going on?
Don't ask. She's likely deny it, and even if she admits to it she'll lie about the extent of it.
I can't help but think it's been going on for a while now.
Almost certainly.
What do you know about it? Does it factor in legally or is Australia no fault?
Dont ask.
IF you dont have anything planned let her go. You cant control her.
Id say something like:
"Sure, I have nothing planned those day. If we agree on a rolling schedule around the kids you wont need to ask me anymore."
That is unless you have laws around Right of first refusal.
The question was out of curiosity, because it bothers me she was so quick to ask for me to look at the kids and gocon vacation. And it bothers me that it could have been the catalyst for BD. Yeah, bad idea to ask, it doesn't matter now. It would just make her feel guilty and more resentful to me.
But then I've thought about getting back in touch with an old flame who probably would be up for it. So I'll let it go.
Right now I have to focus on sorting out IHS parenting plan. Things are too loose atm.
STBXW is asking again about going in vacation. Not that it matters now, but should I ask how long the EA has been going on?
TT180, what's *your* purpose? It's hard to imagine a good reason for asking her this.
Is her being about to sleep with him making you rethink leaving? You could still make a stronger shift towards, "I don't want a D, but I won't stand in your way!", assessing and 180'ing your problem behaviors, and validating her frustrations. You have been writing for years about the toxicity of this relationship--it's also fine to let go.
What would be self-defeating would be trying to stop her.
I *would* reconsider your view that it's harmful for D2 to do overnights with you in light of this upcoming trip. I'm going to assume she's not bringing D2 with her and leaving her overnight care to you or her parents.
And it bothers me that it could have been the catalyst for BD.
Just a symptom Josh.
STBXW is asking again about going in vacation. Not that it matters now, but should I ask how long the EA has been going on?
TT180, what's *your* purpose? It's hard to imagine a good reason for asking her this.
Is her being about to sleep with him making you rethink leaving? You could still make a stronger shift towards, "I don't want a D, but I won't stand in your way!", assessing and 180'ing your problem behaviors, and validating her frustrations. You have been writing for years about the toxicity of this relationship--it's also fine to let go.
What would be self-defeating would be trying to stop her.
I *would* reconsider your view that it's harmful for D2 to do overnights with you in light of this upcoming trip. I'm going to assume she's not bringing D2 with her and leaving her overnight care to you or her parents.
I want a D, it's not a case of reconsidering other than a longing that if she could change . . . But she doesn't, she made that clear when she left couples counselling. I know I'll be happier in the long run. I don't want to stop her, that is not my intent. It's just me ruminating on the sitch. When I frame the trip as getting extra time with kids and D2, it's a win/win. I'm still trying to sort out my work schedule to make it work. Remember, she will be away while we are still in the family home. So D2 will be safe in the environment she knows.
The D2 custody issue is still on my mind. The house won't be sold for months and we haven't sorted that out yet. It will probably have to go to mediation because she so far has refused to be clear on that will look like. She wants flexibility on weekends, and is avoiding the detail on where kids will sleep. I understand the POV here on D2 custody, I'm just torn on the disruption to her and what is best for her, not me. She will effectively be forced to sleep in TWO different houses. I need time to think about it.
After the blow up, we are continuing the email conversation on finances, but with my line of questions, she certainly realizes her reality of what that will look like isn't coming close to what I'm proposing. I'm not going to be pushed over any more by her, and while I am willing to negotiate, I'm not willing to give up a large chunk of what I'm legally entitled to just because she feels its fair.
The question was out of curiosity, because it bothers me she was so quick to ask for me to look at the kids and gocon vacation. And it bothers me that it could have been the catalyst for BD. Yeah, bad idea to ask, it doesn't matter now. It would just make her feel guilty and more resentful to me.
I'm pretty sure it's the fact that it would give her time with an AP versus her pushing the kids off on you that is bothering you.
It's important to recognize what we are really upset about so we can set our perspective. You can look at is an opportunity for her continue on with the affair.. or an opportunity for YOU to spend more time with you kids. Your children are not pawns... They will remember who fought for them when they are older.
I'm pretty sure it's the fact that it would give her time with an AP versus her pushing the kids off on you that is bothering you.
It's important to recognize what we are really upset about so we can set our perspective. You can look at is an opportunity for her continue on with the affair.. or an opportunity for YOU to spend more time with you kids. Your children are not pawns... They will remember who fought for them when they are older.
You hit the nail on the head. This has come up before on these boards 3 years ago post BD1 when she did the same thing. If I look at my values, which is wanting maximum kid time, then I shouldn't give a F about her motivations, I get what I want.
toughtimes180,
But then I've thought about getting back in touch with an old flame who probably would be up for it.
Ummm...you're married. I understand the temptation but you have a whole lot to deal first.
Right now I have to focus on sorting out IHS parenting plan. Things are too loose atm.
Yes, get a scheduled sorted so you can plan your GAL.
When I frame the trip as getting extra time with kids and D2, it's a win/win.
Not sure you're there yet in reality, but that's a great way to look at it.
It will probably have to go to mediation because she so far has refused to be clear on that will look like.
You need to reframe this. It sounds like you're waiting on your W to tell you how it'll go. She does not get to dictate what it looks like. Time to stand up for you and the kids; don't passively wait for W to tell you.
I understand the POV here on D2 custody, I'm just torn on the disruption to her and what is best for her, not me. She will effectively be forced to sleep in TWO different houses. I need time to think about it.
Respectfully, I think you're over thinking the D2 issue. My daughter was 1.5 when my wife moved out. It's not ideal. Certainly a two parents / one home situation is better, but that's not possible with divorce. Relative to the situation, she's handled it. You DO NOT want to set the precedent she only sleeps at mommy's house, not daddy's.
After the blow up, we are continuing the email conversation on finances
Good!
I'm not going to be pushed over any more by her, and while I am willing to negotiate, I'm not willing to give up a large chunk of what I'm legally entitled to just because she feels its fair.
Good. Don't settle for less then what you're entitled to under the law.
I'm pretty sure it's the fact that it would give her time with an AP versus her pushing the kids off on you that is bothering you.
It's important to recognize what we are really upset about so we can set our perspective. You can look at is an opportunity for her continue on with the affair.. or an opportunity for YOU to spend more time with you kids. Your children are not pawns... They will remember who fought for them when they are older.
You hit the nail on the head. This has come up before on these boards 3 years ago post BD1 when she did the same thing. If I look at my values, which is wanting maximum kid time, then I shouldn't give a F about her motivations, I get what I want.
It's a tough pill to swallow. Unfortunately there's nothing you can do. She's going to do what she wants to do. Sorry man. All you can do is release any sense of control, go into zen mode, and enjoy the time with your kids.
Yeah, I'm down today. She emailed me a scathing 2 page emotional rant about how I'm greedy, don't respect her contribution, and more. Then she's demanding a parenting plan with flexibility. Essentially no negotiation. It's sad, I'm going to have to sit on this knowing we're going to have to go to mediation. I talked to L again, and he made it clear she doesn't understand.
It certainly validates what I've felt during the marriage, no compromise.
Yeah, I'm down today. She emailed me a scathing 2 page emotional rant about how I'm greedy, don't respect her contribution, and more.
J, that's got to be tough to read! I imagine that's how she really feels about you just now. In a couple of days, when both your feelings settle, let her know how much you value her contributions.
Then she's demanding a parenting plan with flexibility. Essentially no negotiation. It's sad, I'm going to have to sit on this knowing we're going to have to go to mediation. I talked to L again, and he made it clear she doesn't understand.
Why sad? Her demands are as much hot air as the conversation you had with her. Your respective attorneys, if they're any good, will hammer out a reasonable deal through the mediator.
It's sad that in the conversations there is literally no compromise, not even much detail. It's like she's just bullying to make a point of being right, then leaving it vague for any future manoeuvring. I'm offering different things, but the replies are some twisted guilt trip about what is best for the family. I'm going to think carefully on my response, and will post it here. But if there is no compromise, I'll suggest we must do mediation.
Btw, in Au, mediation generally doesn't involve lawyers, but they may suggest that you consult one beforehand. I already talked to one today.
T
Your STBXW knows you better than anyone on the planet. She knows what has work in the past to get what she wants from you. Show her that she can’t push you around anymore.
T
Your STBXW knows you better than anyone on the planet. She knows what has work in the past to get what she wants from you. Show her that she can’t push you around anymore.
F**ing spot on with that point. I'm totally upbeat today, and she's avoiding me like the plague.
I forgot to mention the rant was all in the third person. I'm sure the psychologists amoung us have something to say about that.
I'm totally upbeat today, and she's avoiding me like the plague.
Welcome to the wonderful world of IHS. The good news is years from now you won't even really remember it.
I'm totally upbeat today, and she's avoiding me like the plague.
Welcome to the wonderful world of IHS. The good news is years from now you won't even really remember it.
Something to look forward to! LH19, your advice and support is always gold.
Wedding Anniversary in a few days. I'm preparing to be reminded. Can't recall who suggested this, but my line will be: "Oh really, I hadn't really thought about it". And then walk away.
Wedding Anniversary in a few days. I'm preparing to be reminded. Can't recall who suggested this, but my line will be: "Oh really, I hadn't really thought about it". And then walk away.
Josh do not stress about it. I am not going to lie it will be awkward. Just stick to these principals:
~No gifts cards etc.
~No passive aggressive comments
"Oh really, I hadn't really thought about it" works but remember it's all in the delivery.
Try to be out of the house for the entire day if possible.
I’m not in Australia, but in my mediation, we had a mediator, but my ex and I each had our own attorney on the outside that we consulted with between sessions.
You want her to have her own attorney when the time comes, someone who can tell her what is and isn’t reasonable. Basically their job was to let us know what a judge would probably decide if we went to court. If her expectations are unreasonable they will let her know.
Meanwhile, stop negotiating with her. Just say “I’ll discuss this with my attorney”. She’s trying to bully you into giving her everything she wants.
I’m not in Australia, but in my mediation, we had a mediator, but my ex and I each had our own attorney on the outside that we consulted with between sessions.
You want her to have her own attorney when the time comes, someone who can tell her what is and isn’t reasonable. Basically their job was to let us know what a judge would probably decide if we went to court. If her expectations are unreasonable they will let her know.
Meanwhile, stop negotiating with her. Just say “I’ll discuss this with my attorney”. She’s trying to bully you into giving her everything she wants.
I think there are those kinds of mediations as well. Mostly I've seen don't have lawyers, some even forbid it. There are some run by trained family lawyers, but don't know if they give legal advice, or say anything if one party is completely unrealistic.
I might consider this option if things don't go anywhere.
I know where I stand. I paid for an asset assessment which makes a recommendation based on historical family law cases. And what that showed was aligned with what L said.
I want a D, it's not a case of reconsidering other than a longing that if she could change . . . But she doesn't, she made that clear when she left couples counselling. I know I'll be happier in the long run.
Being confused about what you want is normal. I vacillated between "I am going to go file tomorrow!" and "I cannot live without her as my W!", and everything in between those two extremes. And it is quite normal to especially feel those extremes in IHS. "Today she was almost normal again, maybe she is changing!" Lots of false hope and starts that can cause us to trip up. Remember what I said yesterday about being 10% good at DBing and 90% horrible at it? My W had a lot of power over that initially. But the better I got at it and swung towards the 90% good and 10% horrible, the more even I became. And the effect on her was profound.
So what I am reading is you want a D UNLESS she changes. Which is what most of us end up in despite the thrashing at the beginning of the situation. Now the real question is, how long can you wait for the change? 3 months? 6 months? A year. One of the best things I did in my IHS was set a drop-dead date. I set mine at 1 year from BD. If by that date she wasn't fully recommitted back to the marriage then I would go file for D myself. I highly encourage you to do the same. Most of the experts I consulted on this suggested at least 1 year from BD. Though most said 2 was probably too long.
Yeah, I'm down today. She emailed me a scathing 2 page emotional rant about how I'm greedy, don't respect her contribution, and more. Then she's demanding a parenting plan with flexibility. Essentially no negotiation. It's sad, I'm going to have to sit on this knowing we're going to have to go to mediation. I talked to L again, and he made it clear she doesn't understand.
It certainly validates what I've felt during the marriage, no compromise.
This is called "pushing your buttons". The way you respond is to take the button away. This is where emotional detachment is pure gold. I like the "sit on this" plan. NO RESPONSE. She expected you to react. Anger, bitterness, sadness, begging. Anything. By just simply no responding to it you are taking the button away.
When the time is right then:
I’m not in Australia, but in my mediation, we had a mediator, but my ex and I each had our own attorney on the outside that we consulted with between sessions.
You want her to have her own attorney when the time comes, someone who can tell her what is and isn’t reasonable. Basically their job was to let us know what a judge would probably decide if we went to court. If her expectations are unreasonable they will let her know.
Meanwhile, stop negotiating with her. Just say “I’ll discuss this with my attorney”. She’s trying to bully you into giving her everything she wants.
I think there are those kinds of mediations as well. Mostly I've seen don't have lawyers, some even forbid it. There are some run by trained family lawyers, but don't know if they give legal advice, or say anything if one party is completely unrealistic.
I might consider this option if things don't go anywhere.
I know where I stand. I paid for an asset assessment which makes a recommendation based on historical family law cases. And what that showed was aligned with what L said.
kml is right on here. Your response: "I might consider this option if things don't go anywhere." Huh? I think the rant written in the third person (yeah that isn't crazy) is 'things not going anywhere!" ScottB just went through mediation. His now ExW used mediation to still try to get everything she wanted, just like kml says here. I cannot imagine a mediation that forbids letting you get your own legal advice. That is nutso crazy town. I wouldn't agree to that kind of mediation if I were you.
It's sad that in the conversations there is literally no compromise, not even much detail. It's like she's just bullying to make a point of being right, then leaving it vague for any future manoeuvring. I'm offering different things, but the replies are some twisted guilt trip about what is best for the family. I'm going to think carefully on my response, and will post it here. But if there is no compromise, I'll suggest we must do mediation.
Good luck. Mediation will require compromise to be successful. Any good mediator will end the mediation the minute they detect that one side isn't coming to mediate in good faith. If you are as sure as you seem that she won't be open to compromise, why even bother with the mediation?
Btw, in Au, mediation generally doesn't involve lawyers, but they may suggest that you consult one beforehand. I already talked to one today.
Foregoing mediation will force her to get a lawyer. Then her lawyer will start letting her no that there is no such thing as "no compromise". Either that or she'll refuse to get her own lawyer and then she will be hosed.
The lawyers were not directly involved in the mediation - just sounding boards for us in between sessions. Helps because they can let you know what’s a good deal and what isn’t.
The lawyers were not directly involved in the mediation - just sounding boards for us in between sessions. Helps because they can let you know what’s a good deal and what isn’t.
that's how I used my lawyer also. Ultimately though you have to make decisions which are right for you and your family long term, regardless of what others, even professionals, may suggest.
I'm totally upbeat today, and she's avoiding me like the plague.
Welcome to the wonderful world of IHS. The good news is years from now you won't even really remember it.
Something to look forward to! LH19, your advice and support is always gold.
Wedding Anniversary in a few days. I'm preparing to be reminded. Can't recall who suggested this, but my line will be: "Oh really, I hadn't really thought about it". And then walk away.
Don’t know where she is mentally but be prepared for her ACTUALLY forgetting about it.
Like LH said it’s in the delivery.
My XW basically forgot/neglected my birthday which was less than two months after we got married. Anniversary wasn’t mentioned at all by either one of us.
Thanks all. The thing about saying I'll discuss with my L is that she actually hasn't written down anything concrete other than saying, in a ranting way, I'm doing you a favor to split the house this way. And I don't disagree much about that, just the percentage is high. I was going to reply to ask her to put everything on paper, or I will show everything on paper as to what I want. But that might get her incensed even more and essentially show my hand.
Another option might be to validate, then just say when you are ready to negotiate, write down a proposal and let's take it from there.
Another option might be to validate, then just say when you are ready to negotiate, write down a proposal and let's take it from there.
Don't validate in any way that might be misconstrued as agreement. Just say "I'll discuss that with my lawyer. Why don't you write it down and send it to me?"
She's not putting it on paper because she just wants to push you into agreeing with her and she knows she's unreasonable or fears hat the actual outcome will be.
Try to be out of the house for the entire day if possible.
..Enjoy the day with your kids.
While IHS, focus on enjoying the KIDS as if wife is not there. Indifference is where your head needs to be. She is here...she is not here. Your emotional state should not change. You are the rock.
Be happy if she vents her anger. Be happy if she is happy. Be happy spending time with your kids. Be happy alone. No need to have perma-grin. Be happy on the inside.
Enjoy every moment.
You can handle it.