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Posted By: PeterB Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 04/28/22 07:58 PM
Starting new thread after 100 posts. Old threads:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2932440#Post2932440
Quoting @LH19 from here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2913132#Post2913132

Originally Posted by LH19
She needs to fully believe that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

- Is there any specific action you recommend?
- Anything to make this realization faster?
- Anything to make this realization more effectively understood?

My constraint is IHS and parenting our special needs child. I am his always-on therapist so need to with him or be at home quite a bit. Still doing plenty of GAL but not meeting / unable to meet new people - is that important in the above context?

Btw, even though I want the MR to be saved, I am unsure if I really care whether she thinks she has a safety net or not.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 04/28/22 10:39 PM
Peter,

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do to speed up the process. She’s on her own journey and own timeline. GAL like a madman is your best option.

Sorry to hear about your sons special needs.
Originally Posted by PeterB
- Is there any specific action you recommend?
- Anything to make this realization faster?
- Anything to make this realization more effectively understood?

My constraint is IHS and parenting our special needs child. I am his always-on therapist so need to with him or be at home quite a bit. Still doing plenty of GAL but not meeting / unable to meet new people - is that important in the above context?
.


Detach. The more you get out of her way - the sooner she can see if this is what she really wants. If you can let go w/o anger and w/ validation - she can process things faster. Will it get you the result you desire - who knows. But if you don't - it will definitely slow down the process.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Quoting @LH19 from here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2913132#Post2913132

Originally Posted by LH19
She needs to fully believe that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

- Is there any specific action you recommend?
- Anything to make this realization faster?
- Anything to make this realization more effectively understood?

My constraint is IHS and parenting our special needs child. I am his always-on therapist so need to with him or be at home quite a bit. Still doing plenty of GAL but not meeting / unable to meet new people - is that important in the above context?

Btw, even though I want the MR to be saved, I am unsure if I really care whether she thinks she has a safety net or not.
My thought in your first thread is that you are overthinking things bigly.

The best way for the realization to be understood is for it to be real.
The fastest way is for you to start being consistent.
And the specific action recommended is the one consistent with your values.

Otherwise you're being someone else and you will be at odds with yourself. She'll know. You'll know. No one will like it.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
My thought in your first thread is that you are overthinking things bigly.

You are quite right. A little bit about me - I almost always speak elaborately when talking to anyone on just about anything. I use lot of words and long sentences. I have the ability to think deeply on pretty much anything and do that very fast - it could be a matter of technology or a human situation. I have pretty low EQ. I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me). These are deep character traits, which often leads to overthinking. The reality of having to cohabit and do many things just like a regular married couple is making it hard to control my DB efforts. I am actually actively trying to stay in the present and avoid overthinking. I know it is working but I have some ways to go.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
The best way for the realization to be understood is for it to be real.
The fastest way is for you to start being consistent.
And the specific action recommended is the one consistent with your values.

Good thing is, now I am aware of these things. It also indirectly implies that there are no shortcuts. Could use reminders every now and then smile.

My question about specific actions were more related to GAL activities or handling tactical situations at home. For example, I am able to do many new activities diligently and I am really motivated but I am unable to meet new people. I don't know if that is required for a highly effective GAL. I just reevaluated my understanding of how to handle post-BD / pre-D tactical situations and I think I am doing okay regarding specifics. And I have a vast amount of golden words within this DB forum to guide me.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Otherwise you're being someone else and you will be at odds with yourself. She'll know. You'll know. No one will like it.

Another good thing is that I don't get the feeling that I am trying to be someone else. I do feel the changes and the organic nature of the changes. I have not felt imposter syndrome but might have to put in some effort to ensure that I am not fooling myself. Did my workout activity regress earlier in life? - yes, several times. But it feels different this time. And this time around I also have the self-forgiveness tool to use during implementation slip-ups. That has really helped.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 04/29/22 09:00 PM
Quote
A little bit about me - I almost always speak elaborately when talking to anyone on just about anything. I use lot of words and long sentences. I have the ability to think deeply on pretty much anything and do that very fast - it could be a matter of technology or a human situation. I have pretty low EQ. I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me). These are deep character traits, which often leads to overthinking.

Peter - have you ever considered that you might be on the spectrum? Not saying that this excuses your wife's affair, it definitely doesn't - but it can lead to miscommunications and misunderstandings in a marriage, especially if it's not known.

You might consider seeing a therapist just for you, to figure this out. Even if you don't end up saving your marriage, knowledge could help you in future relationships.

You mention that your son has special needs, and that you work with him a lot. Pardon me if I've missed this information in your last thread, but does W work outside the home? I think you referenced having a home office, so do you work from home? Is that allowing you to be the primary parent with your son?

If she works outside the home and you get more time with son - well, it is a sad and sexist thing but I have often seen here that working wives don't respect their stay at home dad spouses. On some level, they want to be home with their child while their husband is off bringing home the money. I'm not saying it's fair, or right, and it's definitely sexist. But even when the woman chooses her career, resentment can build.

If you divorce, what do you need in order to be able to continue putting in the time with your son's treatment? Sounds like you're doing a fantastic job. (Bear in mind, also, that having a child with a serious illness is a HUGE risk factor for a divorce. Some partners just can't handle the pain, or want to escape the difficulties of daily life with a handicapped child, or handle the grief differently than their partners. You likely are the "I'm gonna dive in and fix this" type, and she may have wanted more acknowledgement of her sadness or pain over your child's condition. Or she may just want to spend time with affair partner where she doesn't think about the pain associated with your child's condition. )
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
A little bit about me - I almost always speak elaborately when talking to anyone on just about anything. I use lot of words and long sentences. I have the ability to think deeply on pretty much anything and do that very fast - it could be a matter of technology or a human situation. I have pretty low EQ. I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me). These are deep character traits, which often leads to overthinking.

Peter - have you ever considered that you might be on the spectrum?

I have considered that soon after my son was diagnosed. I am quite confident I am not on the spectrum. This opinion is through self-analysis, not a professional opinion, but I have to mention that I now have a professional level of competency at observation, therapy and diagnosis (gained through hard work and validated by my son's professional interventionists). I will consider getting a real professional opinion though.

Originally Posted by kml
You might consider seeing a therapist just for you, to figure this out. Even if you don't end up saving your marriage, knowledge could help you in future relationships.

Regardless of whether I am on the spectrum or not, this will help for the future so I can discuss problem behaviors and situations. I certainly intend to get on a regular schedule but right now I find myself satisfied by my GAL efforts, ongoing handling of situations at home and of course, participating on this forum (this forum brings a value in my sitch that no IC can provide).

Originally Posted by kml
You mention that your son has special needs, and that you work with him a lot. Pardon me if I've missed this information in your last thread, but does W work outside the home? I think you referenced having a home office, so do you work from home? Is that allowing you to be the primary parent with your son?

Both of us work from home. Both of us go to office a few times a month. We share parenting responsibilities. His intervention needs are almost completely handled by me (there is little appreciation of that from my WW because she is in denial about lot of his limitations and potential prognosis). She is the primary for one particular intervention, but I do the planning and teaching for that (to her, nanny, and grandparents when they are around).

Originally Posted by kml
If she works outside the home and you get more time with son - well, it is a sad and sexist thing but I have often seen here that working wives don't respect their stay at home dad spouses. On some level, they want to be home with their child while their husband is off bringing home the money. I'm not saying it's fair, or right, and it's definitely sexist. But even when the woman chooses her career, resentment can build.

She is a rockstar at her work and she is compensated accordingly. Deservedly, gets validated again and again. I was super proud of that. During conflicts I wanted her to bring her management skills and poise from work to the home, but it never happened. In the last year she did mention several times to me that now she earns as much as me and even mentioned that to my father (which he found rather odd). Taking the example of my family, I had always considered my earned money to be hers as well, but the reverse was not remotely true. She has been clear that her earned income is her own money only. A source of conflict was she that she would frequently complain about spending too much for the household (the specifics of these complaints are too ugly for me to retain in my head). At some point last year, this type of complaint gave me so much anxiety that I created a spreadsheet which showed that I spend 2.5 times as much as her per month on the household (without counting my paycheck expenses like family health insurance and other family benefits). She went quiet when confronted with numbers, but she repeated the same complaint after a few days as if the spreadsheet never happened. The complaint continued regularly btw smile. Btw, my income is twice as much as her because I have a significant variable component in my compensation. She registers that. But now after she became WW, I am doubtful as to what her attitude would be if she really made more or equal to me.

Originally Posted by kml
If you divorce, what do you need in order to be able to continue putting in the time with your son's treatment? Sounds like you're doing a fantastic job.

This is a major worry for me. If I lose time with him, the most important implication is losing out on observation time, and an inability to get proper feedback from the times he spends with her. Regular observation is the key to plan and fine tune his interventions. Not able to observe during infrequent leisure travel is okay. But it is not okay if I don't get accurate feedback, or I am only able to observe 50% of the time. Post BD I've realized that she appears to have convinced herself he is going to be okay in the long-term because according to her he is making amazing progress that will get him there.

Originally Posted by kml
(Bear in mind, also, that having a child with a serious illness is a HUGE risk factor for a divorce. Some partners just can't handle the pain, or want to escape the difficulties of daily life with a handicapped child, or handle the grief differently than their partners. You likely are the "I'm gonna dive in and fix this" type, and she may have wanted more acknowledgement of her sadness or pain over your child's condition. Or she may just want to spend time with affair partner where she doesn't think about the pain associated with your child's condition. )

The divorce statistics for ASD parents is quite grim. That shows how much selfishness there is in this world. Our own conflicts regarding special needs parenting has nothing to do with her needing acknowledgement of sadness. Her mindset is quite the opposite and I have been happy that she handles the fact of his condition well. But it is me who does all the observations and interventions and so I am faced with seeing the brunt of his limitations, which can have a depressive effect. Now the conflict here is that I am unable to share my observations and thoughts with her without her putting me down in many ways, one being that I am so clinical (I am not but as advised by his pediatric psychologist, observation and therapy are now built into my being and they cannot be turned off). Any worry I have about a potential long term disadvantage is handled by her in difficult ways - either stonewall me or put me down. I don't recall ever feeling supported or that she has my back on his therapy needs.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 04/30/22 01:22 AM
Ugh - I’m sorry. I can’t help but suspect that her carping about household expenses is because she’s been saving up money for her future single life and those pesky utility bills are slowing her down!

I’m glad you both have good incomes, you ought to be able to get 50:50 custody. I’m truly sorry divorce may interfere with your therapy for your child, that’s certainly the worst part of this.

Just to tell you an inspiring story I know: a friend of my best friend has a non-verbal autistic son. He used to do a lot of self-harming. Then, in his early teens, his doctor put him on sulphoraphane (broccoli extract, in this case specifically from a company called Thorne). His self-harming stopped. A couple of years later he started learning to communicate with an assistive device. Turns out he has an amazing vocabulary for someone who could never speak! Then Covid made it necessary for his father to be more involved in his schooling, as it was remote. He blossomed, started writing amazing poetry, and composing symphonies in his head. Now he’s working with a professional musician friend of his fathers to translate what he hears in his head into symphonies. I can’t wait for the first one to be performed!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 04/30/22 06:30 AM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me).
It seems like a disproportionate number of male LBSs here are.

Originally Posted by PeterB
His intervention needs are almost completely handled by me (there is little appreciation of that from my WW because she is in denial about lot of his limitations and potential prognosis).
Did this cause you to feel resentful?

Originally Posted by PeterB
She is a rockstar at her work and she is compensated accordingly. Deservedly, gets validated again and again. I was super proud of that.
Did you communicate your pride effectively? Did she feel respected and valued in regards to her career & contributions?

Originally Posted by PeterB
In the last year she did mention several times to me that now she earns as much as me and even mentioned that to my father (which he found rather odd).
Do you think she may have felt the need to justify her self worth and financial contributions?

Originally Posted by PeterB
Taking the example of my family, I had always considered my earned money to be hers as well, but the reverse was not remotely true. She has been clear that her earned income is her own money only. A source of conflict was she that she would frequently complain about spending too much for the household (the specifics of these complaints are too ugly for me to retain in my head).
Did your W have freedom to handle money or did she feel under a microscope & controlled financially?

Originally Posted by PeterB
At some point last year, this type of complaint gave me so much anxiety that I created a spreadsheet which showed that I spend 2.5 times as much as her per month on the household (without counting my paycheck expenses like family health insurance and other family benefits). She went quiet when confronted with numbers, but she repeated the same complaint after a few days as if the spreadsheet never happened.
How do you think showing her that spreadsheet made her feel?

Originally Posted by PeterB
Btw, my income is twice as much as her because I have a significant variable component in my compensation. She registers that.
Did you point out to her your income is higher and your contributions are higher? If so, how do you think that made her feel? And, do you think that may have been a factor in her telling you and your dad she now earns as much as you?

PeterB - Is it possible she may have felt not good enough or appreciated enough on the career/earning/financial contributions as you did on the caring for your special needs child?

Notice I'm asking "How did that make her feel?" a lot. Us analytical people can tend to think of everything logically like a math equation but can struggle empathizing feelings and providing emotional support. Your W wants to feel loved and respected and appreciated. Not saying that's the full story here, but based on the latest posts an area for you to consider working on moving forward.
Originally Posted by kml
Just to tell you an inspiring story I know: a friend of my best friend has a non-verbal autistic son. He used to do a lot of self-harming. Then, in his early teens, his doctor put him on sulphoraphane (broccoli extract, in this case specifically from a company called Thorne). His self-harming stopped. A couple of years later he started learning to communicate with an assistive device. Turns out he has an amazing vocabulary for someone who could never speak! Then Covid made it necessary for his father to be more involved in his schooling, as it was remote. He blossomed, started writing amazing poetry, and composing symphonies in his head. Now he’s working with a professional musician friend of his fathers to translate what he hears in his head into symphonies. I can’t wait for the first one to be performed!

Amazing story. Thanks for sharing it. If they publish any videos then please private msg them to me. Thanks for the tip about broccoli extract. Will check it out.
Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me).
It seems like a disproportionate number of male LBSs here are.

No hope for us it seems smile

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
His intervention needs are almost completely handled by me (there is little appreciation of that from my WW because she is in denial about lot of his limitations and potential prognosis).
Did this cause you to feel resentful?

No resentment. But quite a bit of frustration at her not being able to carry out some targeted activities or not being able to do proper observations or misreading his progress or denial of various issues. On hindsight I should not have got frustrated / angry. In the very beginning when I got massive negative feedback and denial from my larger family about his condition, I decided that I will have to be strong and go at it alone. I also didn't expect anyone to be able to do therapy at my level or develop the same level of understanding of issues around autism. In the first month from the night I suspected something is wrong, I probably slept avg 3 hours per night, reading all I could. During the day I would call providers and manage the special-needs red-tape (told my manager I wont be working) and made systematic notes on where he is at and what he needs. It became an obsession and doubts started creeping in that I am failing him and I need to do more (20 months later an IC told me to self-appreciate my own efforts regardless of where he is at and that method was a revelation to me). It would be foolish of me to expect others to do this or build resentment if they don't.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
She is a rockstar at her work and she is compensated accordingly. Deservedly, gets validated again and again. I was super proud of that.
Did you communicate your pride effectively? Did she feel respected and valued in regards to her career & contributions?

Did I communicate my pride properly - probably no. I am a person who is uncomfortable with receiving too much praise so on the flip side I would not tell her that I am singing about her work successes and great responsibilities to my colleagues and friends. But I did enough in that she knows well how happy I am for her. I would also regularly talk to her about her work and try to help and advice wherever possible. She has never expressed dissatisfaction about not feeling valued in terms of her career or not being supported.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
In the last year she did mention several times to me that now she earns as much as me and even mentioned that to my father (which he found rather odd).
Do you think she may have felt the need to justify her self worth and financial contributions?

I don't know. She might have but it would not / should not be because of me. She knows that I keep my parents informed about her successes and even her compensation and she also knows that they were proud of her career. She always had a goal that one day she will do really well and she will earn a lot of money. She is on a road towards that goal so I wonder if she validates herself by saying it. Anyway, none of this bothered me then or now.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Taking the example of my family, I had always considered my earned money to be hers as well, but the reverse was not remotely true. She has been clear that her earned income is her own money only. A source of conflict was she that she would frequently complain about spending too much for the household (the specifics of these complaints are too ugly for me to retain in my head).
Did your W have freedom to handle money or did she feel under a microscope & controlled financially?

She had the freedom from my pov. I never asked her about her personal expenses. Neither of us have expensive taste. Would she love an expensive designer bag? - of course. But she does not crave such a bag or an expensive car etc. I used to be tight on spending so that may have indirectly caused hesitation within her - she never expressed it to me but during BD she did say she hesitated to spend money.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
At some point last year, this type of complaint gave me so much anxiety that I created a spreadsheet which showed that I spend 2.5 times as much as her per month on the household (without counting my paycheck expenses like family health insurance and other family benefits). She went quiet when confronted with numbers, but she repeated the same complaint after a few days as if the spreadsheet never happened.
How do you think showing her that spreadsheet made her feel?

Didn't show her the spreadsheet. I had to tabulate to give me a sense of real numbers because I started coming down with anxiety every time she complained about spending too much money and in the process turning a good experiences into bad. Then I told her the numbers. It was a damp squib. She went quiet, didn't ask me for any details and moved the conversation to something else.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Btw, my income is twice as much as her because I have a significant variable component in my compensation. She registers that.
Did you point out to her your income is higher and your contributions are higher? If so, how do you think that made her feel? And, do you think that may have been a factor in her telling you and your dad she now earns as much as you?

Never brought up my compensation with her under any circumstances in the past or in the present. She has been the one who brings it up, and even then it never led to negative situations. I am a totally non-competitive person btw - I do my best but never compete. My IC had asked me to change that urgently and recognize the reality of competition in day-to-day life.

Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB - Is it possible she may have felt not good enough or appreciated enough on the career/earning/financial contributions as you did on the caring for your special needs child?

She has not pitted the value of her financial contributions to my time spent my son. But yes, she did feel neglected overall because of time spent on my son and my depression affected her too.

Originally Posted by BL42
Notice I'm asking "How did that make her feel?" a lot. Us analytical people can tend to think of everything logically like a math equation but can struggle empathizing feelings and providing emotional support. Your W wants to feel loved and respected and appreciated. Not saying that's the full story here, but based on the latest posts an area for you to consider working on moving forward.

These are good points. Will have to speak to an IC regarding this.
Quick update: No huge developments. She keeps trying to do things at the opposite ends of the scale. She gets nice, initiates questions on what I am up to and other discussions. Otoh she tries to fight with me and comes at me again and again even though I try removing myself from the scene. As mentioned earlier, I have boundaries on post-divorce talk, any talk involving parents/friends and any abusive statements.

Over the last few weeks she has changed very little of her own problems - she obviously knew I was very busy last evening taking care of various things regarding my son and the house and her (she was unwell). I forgot to do one thing and she raised her voice at me. When I told her that I was so busy that I did not remember to do that, she promptly answered - "no you were not".

I am getting the feeling that she is becoming a natural at trying to keep me alive as a plan B while contemplating her escape, which she seems to be rather hesitant about. She has dropped ILYBINILWY a few times yet continues to have sex.

This is a great quote I found on the internet - "...in 9.99 times out of ten, ILYBINILWY is a code phrase for I'm having an affair and blaming it on you, it's your fault I no longer love you. Look at what you've done, you've driven me away, I'll show you." In fact, she has said - "look what you have done, you've driven me away, you really did" multiple times. Very predictable it seems.

My GAL is going fine. A few days ago she launched at me saying she can't stand it that other girls will get to have this 'better you' and said with suspicion in her voice - "you are not really trying to get me back, are you?". She also keeps lamenting "I am just so bitter at you that I can't let go".
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/07/22 10:28 AM
Peter,

Very predictable indeed. I just want to caution you on a couple things. You are most likely not plan B. This is an assumption that gets thrown around here a lot that IMO is not correct. You are a plan but it’s more like F or G. ILYBINILWY means she loves you like she would live a helpless child. In essence she sees you as a low value man because she doesn’t trust you. This can change but not likely without time and space and life experiences.

As for still having sex, my exw was like that, she’s the answer to the trivia question of “who’s the first woman you slept with after you were divorced?” It just means in her eyes you are an attractive dude and she’s more broken then you think.

BTW I think you are doing great DBing. The problem is the ice berg has been spotted too late and avoiding the iceberg is highly unlikely because there’s not enough time to alter the ships trajectory.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Quick update: No huge developments. She keeps trying to do things at the opposite ends of the scale. She gets nice, initiates questions on what I am up to and other discussions. Otoh she tries to fight with me and comes at me again and again even though I try removing myself from the scene. As mentioned earlier, I have boundaries on post-divorce talk, any talk involving parents/friends and any abusive statements.

Over the last few weeks she has changed very little of her own problems - she obviously knew I was very busy last evening taking care of various things regarding my son and the house and her (she was unwell). I forgot to do one thing and she raised her voice at me. When I told her that I was so busy that I did not remember to do that, she promptly answered - "no you were not".

I am getting the feeling that she is becoming a natural at trying to keep me alive as a plan B while contemplating her escape, which she seems to be rather hesitant about. She has dropped ILYBINILWY a few times yet continues to have sex.

This is a great quote I found on the internet - "...in 9.99 times out of ten, ILYBINILWY is a code phrase for I'm having an affair and blaming it on you, it's your fault I no longer love you. Look at what you've done, you've driven me away, I'll show you." In fact, she has said - "look what you have done, you've driven me away, you really did" multiple times. Very predictable it seems.

My GAL is going fine. A few days ago she launched at me saying she can't stand it that other girls will get to have this 'better you' and said with suspicion in her voice - "you are not really trying to get me back, are you?". She also keeps lamenting "I am just so bitter at you that I can't let go".

PeterB, I can't really argue with the quote you found. That phrase is one most LBSs hear. And the WAS KNOWS that it is hurtful. They've likely been contemplating saying if for a very long time before they finally verbalize it. It is really a phrase they think will simultaneously let us down easy, but at the same time is going to be hurtful enough that we cannot come back from it. And it is almost like they have attended a "how to walk away from your spouse" class. It is amazing how ubiquitous that phrase really is in these situations on BD. And yes in the vast majority of cases, whether this phrase is uttered or not, there is AP. Even if it is just a fantasy person in the WAS's mind. We once had a poster here whose W was convinced that her and some country singer that didn't even know she existed were destined to be together! The brain fog that a WAS can be buried in is amazing sometimes.

As far as your W speaking to you like she did, why not, rather than try to find an excuse, just tell her "I refuse to be spoken to in that manner" and then walking away. Remember, commanding respect is really what you need to be striving for here. We see a lot of verbally abusive WASs here, and allowing it is never a recipe for eventual R. You have to nip it in bud. Don't yell, or say it in an angry way. Just state the phrase above and walk away.
Thanks LH19 & SteveLW. So an important development.

She has been fishing around using words to figure out if I know about her A. She has been doing it for a month and I did not bite. But she is no fool. She also knows only too well that I am analytical, and can piece things together so that is another reason she thinks I know (she has let slip several things and she realizes that). And she is right of course.

So, a few days ago she started a conversation and then said something 'good' about a significant early phase of our R. In reality she was putting me down hard in a subtle way to achieve two goals. 1st was that she was revising that phase to bolster the narrative that she is a better fit with her AP. 2nd was to get a reaction from me which would confirm her suspicions that I know about her A. Recall that I have a boundary that I refuse to hear things that I recognize are putting me down and things that are of no benefit to me. What she said fit both criteria, so I told her to excuse me from that discussion and that she was better off discussing with her support system.

And the above reaction was all she needed. She blew up and started screaming. I tried to remove myself physically, but she chased me down continuously (like she would do in the past during our R). At one point she shouted - "I am very smart, and I know what you know". Then she followed it up by cursing me for making her unhappy and "letting me go". And she shouted that I am trying to run away from blame and now blaming her for the D. She was unleashing self-righteous anger at me.

I hadn't spoken a word after she blew up. It was easy for me to figure out that she had no remorse for her A. Otoh she was more outraged that I found out and that now I might blame her. The reality in front of her across the last 4 months is that I have accepted whole heartedly my share of the responsibility for her unhappiness (I will never accept any responsibility whatsoever for her A). But she denied my acceptance & apologies and went off on a long tirade.

So, what has happened is that "she knows I know". Things have been back to our strange normal since (including sex) and she has been blowing mostly positive. She is confused - I think she is trying to understand if we can rebuild MR and at the same time wants to make her post-D life work with her AP. It is quite convenient for her to do some mechanical things for me and keep me in the game. She does not know that I am preparing my mind for D. She does not know that I have detached myself from her A and not letting it affect me - although I will use this ultimate act of disrespect to guide my future actions.

The point that begs action at this time is that if she truly knows that I know about her A then I think it is time to talk to her about it. Otherwise, she might take me for granted and her disrespect will grow. In her mind she would be like, is this guy so desperate that he tries to sweep things under the rug? What do the veterans feel about this? Is my thinking correct? If yes, how should I broach the topic with her? Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess? Any rules to follow while discussing such a precarious topic.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/12/22 07:13 PM
Sorry things seemed to have turned for the worse for you. When people get into affairs, it's a very stark mixed bag of feelings. For one, getting loads of positive attention from a member of the opposite sex is intoxicating, it's really like a drug. Then, there's the accompanying feeling of guilt knowing that they are doing something wrong.

Rather than get angry at themselves, they think "why am I feeling guilty? It's because of HIM, HE'S making me feel guilty"

Then, you become the bad guy, and they look to reinforce their argument that "you are making them do this" by searching for any negative things that you do, re-writing your history so it was always bad, etc. etc. etc.

It's a very predictable and repeatable pattern unfortunately, and the things your wife is saying and how she is acting are no different.

She feels guilty about her A is yet another reason she resents you, so anything you do to guilt her, shame her, or make her responsible for your sadness is going to increase her guilt and therefore increase her resentment.

Your best bet is to go the opposite direction and give her more space than she wants. The DB prescription is (1) 180: whatever she assumes she knows about you, demonstrate that it's not true. If you used to get angry and honk in traffic, don't do that even in the worst scenario, etc. (2) Get a Life: go out and do things with other people and enjoy your life, establish new relationships, (3) Act as If: Act as if everything is 100% awesome in your life.

There is NOTHING you can do about her affair partner or what she's going to do next. You can only control what you're going to do next.

People often fear that if they go in the other direction, are they telling their partner they don't care, or giving their tacit approval for the affair to continue, or how will they demonstrate that they're different if the other person doesn't see them, etc. etc.

The answer to all of that is "NO" -- the answer is to give space, not pursue, and all it means is that you're giving space. There's nothing else to read into it.

Often we get caught up on what we should and shouldn't be doing, but the important thing is not the what, but the how, or what your demeanor is like.

You need to "open the cage door" as it were, and what that means is that you need to completely let her off the hook in terms of influencing your feelings.

If she knows that you are "okay" no matter what she does, then she is free to deal with her own feelings and work things out for herself.

If she's constantly aware that her actions and her decisions are making you sad/angsty/mad/etc. then she will wear that feeling like a yoke of oppression and her main focus will be getting away from it.

Talking about the affair is a bad idea. The thing is you don't *have* to do any of that. In fact you shouldn't. That's the key.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

You are right that it [censored], and I'm glad you're angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

I read somewhere that for people in a relationship to characterize it as "happy", positive interactions need to outweigh negative ones by a ratio of 7:1. For every one time you come away from an exchange annoyed, you have to come away from seven others feeling good. That's a pretty difficult thing to achieve for most people. If you're shy of that, the resentment snowball is growing.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting W back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?
Originally Posted by Peter
In her mind she would be like, is this guy so desperate that he tries to sweep things under the rug?
Would "sweeping it under the rug" be a fair assessment?

Originally Posted by "Ready2Change, 1 month ago"
Do not share with her WHAT you know.
Do not share with her HOW you know.
You can and should (at the right time) share that you DO KNOW.

"We both know that is a lie. If you are willing to speak the truth, I will listen."
Originally Posted by "Traveller, 1 month ago."
If you choose sex, read up on being safe with casual sex partners who are simultaneously sleeping with others. Common precautions include condoms and regular STI screenings. As they say, if you aren't ready to talk about safe sex, you're not ready to have it!

Now you know you figured it out because she's been dropping hints. Now she knows your response was to ignore it, continue to patch things up, and continue having sex. The curtain has been pulled back. Are you proud of your choices? Were they made out of desperation or something else?

Originally Posted by Peter
The point that begs action at this time is that if she truly knows that I know about her A then I think it is time to talk to her about it.
I've never been cheated on. I'm sorry you have. I agree the facade is gone. DB frowns on Talky and prefers Actions. What would you hope to get from a Talky? Have you considered setting any boundaries--it sounds like you want the sex to continue?! If so, reconsider setting a boundary of wearing a condom and/or requiring her to get STI tested before sex. Each time you sleep with a casual sex partner without protection you increase your chances of catching something. We hear it too often here.
Originally Posted by PeterB
If yes, how should I broach the topic with her? Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess? Any rules to follow while discussing such a precarious topic.
Actions speak loader than words. I would not talk to her about it. But if you must, get yourself in the right frame of mind.


RobX had the right mind set:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079636#Post2079636
I agree with R2C. Actions are better than words. But most LBSs give in to their impulses. If you must then follow R2C's advice.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/13/22 02:31 AM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
Recall that I have a boundary that I refuse to hear things that I recognize are putting me down and things that are of no benefit to me. What she said fit both criteria, so I told her to excuse me from that discussion and that she was better off discussing with her support system.
Well done! That's a perfect boundary enforcement. You're right...not reason to put up with that.

Originally Posted by PeterB
And the above reaction was all she needed. She blew up and started screaming.
Very predictable response. Little children often lash out and have temper tantrums when things don't their way. You have to train them to learn this is not acceptable behavior...as you did here.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I tried to remove myself physically, but she chased me down continuously (like she would do in the past during our R). At one point she shouted - "I am very smart, and I know what you know". Then she followed it up by cursing me for making her unhappy and "letting me go". And she shouted that I am trying to run away from blame and now blaming her for the D. She was unleashing self-righteous anger at me.
You should seriously consider audio or video recording these interactions. Ask your L what your local laws are on this. Many states, mine included, have "one party consent" laws meaning as long as you're part of the exchange you're legally allowed to record it. If W is lashing out verbally abusive or physically chasing you down that's a major red flag. Don't allow things to escalate and take on a potential domestic abuse charge (valid or not) which could do major damage to your standing in the house/kids, job, reputation...etc. Start recording, walk away calmly, make it clear you're not threatening in any way.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I hadn't spoken a word after she blew up.
Great control. Good job. Way to keep your cool.

Originally Posted by PeterB
So, what has happened is that "she knows I know". Things have been back to our strange normal since (including sex) and she has been blowing mostly positive.
Do you still want to have sex with her, knowing she's having an affair? Is it just physical pleasure, or are you hoping to win her back that way or stick it to OM? As others mentioned be careful about STDs.

Originally Posted by PeterB
The point that begs action at this time is that if she truly knows that I know about her A then I think it is time to talk to her about it.
I agree with Traveler, Ready2Change, and SteveLW. Fewer words; strong action.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Otherwise, she might take me for granted and her disrespect will grow.
Ummm...sorry man but she's already having an affair. You can't be much more disrespectful to someone than that.

[quote=PeterB]Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess?
Definitely do not be verbose. You don't want to have an hour long discussion about her affair, and asking her to confess, and pleading for her to stop. I made that mistake as have many others here.

LH19's post was fantastic by the way. Go back and read that a dozen times.
Also agree with BL, well done on setting a boundary and adhering to it.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by PeterB
If yes, how should I broach the topic with her? Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess? Any rules to follow while discussing such a precarious topic.
Actions speak loader than words. I would not talk to her about it. But if you must, get yourself in the right frame of mind.


RobX had the right mind set:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079636#Post2079636

Excellent post. I had read it earlier when you posted it on my thread and good to read it now again when it has become more relevant to my sitch.

This is golden: "You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent. You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent". This can be applied at any time or space. She got a restaurant dish for me but out of the blue attempted to belittle me a little later. Pretty darn inconsistent.

I am not going to talk to her about it for now. Will take it slowly. I thought this was urgent but now that I have thought over it, I feel it is not. I am planning up my next big GAL adventure as we speak smile.
Peter, and STIs? You know that she’s slept with other people. She’s told you so. Some STI‘s are life endangering. Some STIs are annoyances for life. Why aren’t you facing that?
Testing is quick and easy. I had that conversation when I was in newcomers and standing.
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by Peter
In her mind she would be like, is this guy so desperate that he tries to sweep things under the rug?
Would "sweeping it under the rug" be a fair assessment?

It is not. I am not there yet where I can forgive her for starting the A but even from the beginning, I have been willing to see if we can rebuild with the fact that she cheated. I did not see the need to bring it up with her yet (in the last 3 months) as it could lead to unmanageable situations (recall that we live together, parent an autistic child and my responsibilities as the head of the household has pretty much not changed) and can complicate even the consideration of reconciliation. That's not to say that a reconciliation is guaranteed even from my side, let alone hers. I am yet to understand how I can identify where piecing starts but disclosures could be important before that happens. And I know that now is not the time to believe her because although she has been blowing positive, she has also been blowing pretty negative and seems to be ready to explode at any time.

Originally Posted by "Ready2Change, 1 month ago"
Do not share with her WHAT you know.
Do not share with her HOW you know.
You can and should (at the right time) share that you DO KNOW.

"We both know that is a lie. If you are willing to speak the truth, I will listen."
Originally Posted by "Traveller, 1 month ago."
If you choose sex, read up on being safe with casual sex partners who are simultaneously sleeping with others. Common precautions include condoms and regular STI screenings. As they say, if you aren't ready to talk about safe sex, you're not ready to have it!

I got tested and everything is fine. Just to reiterate, she has not been physical in the last 4 months. Her EA+PA started when she had a short duration travel and has not met him since. I am 100% sure that if OM was a short distance away, she would have separated (if not D by now) and started living in with him. I am sure she has been sexually active over the phone in the past (based on observed suspicious behavior). Currently I think she speaks to him only occasionally and she is much more into him than he is into her (he is single, probably lives a promiscuous life and she knows it).

Quote
Now you know you figured it out because she's been dropping hints.

I figured it out just a few days after BD without her dropping any hints at all, at first purely by analysis of observations on her pre-BD behavior. Then a friend told me what he saw when she was on vacation and that validated my suspicions. She started dropping (very subtle) hints only about a month ago after one day I told her she was physically distant on the very day she returned.

Quote
Now she knows your response was to ignore it, continue to patch things up, and continue having sex. The curtain has been pulled back. Are you proud of your choices? Were they made out of desperation or something else?

It's a little less dramatic than that. I made a deliberate decision not to bring it up with her and I am I glad I did because it has given me the time and space to not only to focus on myself but also detach from the emotional impact of her A (I had trusted her strongly all throughout our M). Refer back to my first comment in this reply where I mentioned some of the constraints I have to work under.
Originally Posted by Traveler
Peter, and STIs? You know that she’s slept with other people. She’s told you so. Some STI‘s are life endangering. Some STIs are annoyances for life. Why aren’t you facing that?
Testing is quick and easy. I had that conversation when I was in newcomers and standing.

I did get tested recently btw. You messaged just before I responded to your earlier post so I am copy-pasting the relevant sentence here:

Originally Posted by PeterB
I got tested and everything is fine. Just to reiterate, she has not been physical in the last 4 months. Her EA+PA started when she had a short duration travel and has not met him since.

I know that she has not got physical with anyone else since then (Dec 2021). She is also in some sort of delusional love with the OM. I won't get into the specifics to avoid TMI, but rest assured you'd be shocked.
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
I tried to remove myself physically, but she chased me down continuously (like she would do in the past during our R). At one point she shouted - "I am very smart, and I know what you know". Then she followed it up by cursing me for making her unhappy and "letting me go". And she shouted that I am trying to run away from blame and now blaming her for the D. She was unleashing self-righteous anger at me.
You should seriously consider audio or video recording these interactions. Ask your L what your local laws are on this. Many states, mine included, have "one party consent" laws meaning as long as you're part of the exchange you're legally allowed to record it. If W is lashing out verbally abusive or physically chasing you down that's a major red flag. Don't allow things to escalate and take on a potential domestic abuse charge (valid or not) which could do major damage to your standing in the house/kids, job, reputation...etc. Start recording, walk away calmly, make it clear you're not threatening in any way.

Thanks for bringing this into my consciousness. I have not felt that she would get vicious enough to try to screw me over but perhaps it's best not to take that for granted, especially now that the exposure of an A is involved (even though the exposure is unspoken and indirect).

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
I hadn't spoken a word after she blew up.
Great control. Good job. Way to keep your cool.

Thanks. This used to be quite hard initially but I'm getting better at it. Still not perfect as I have to work against my own unconscious tendency to talk too much.

Originally Posted by BL42
Do you still want to have sex with her, knowing she's having an affair? Is it just physical pleasure, or are you hoping to win her back that way or stick it to OM? As others mentioned be careful about STDs.

The A started and physical stuff happened in Dec 2021 during a short duration travel. Since then, she has not met him physically or had any casual contact with other men. I don't care at all about sticking it to the OM and it is certainly not a way to win her back (sex won't get her back even it was).

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Otherwise, she might take me for granted and her disrespect will grow.
Ummm...sorry man but she's already having an affair. You can't be much more disrespectful to someone than that.

Golden smile. Su*ks but true.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess?
Definitely do not be verbose. You don't want to have an hour long discussion about her affair, and asking her to confess, and pleading for her to stop. I made that mistake as have many others here.

I am totally done with pleading. Pleading lasted for a week after BD. Any requirement to confess would be to see if we can consider a joint reconciliation (heal together, if you will). If she does not stop then it will anyway lead to D and I am preparing myself to face that. What I am clear is that I will only stay married to someone who respects and loves me. If she is builds that love and respect then it could work, otherwise no.

Originally Posted by BL42
LH19's post was fantastic by the way. Go back and read that a dozen times.

8 more times to go.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/13/22 09:09 PM
Quote
I got tested and everything is fine.

Just a medical reality check - IF she had acquired an STD, hasn't had further contact with OM, and you tested once and were negative - that STILL doesn't mean she couldn't give you an STD. No STD is 100% transmissible in any one sexual contact. So until SHE has been tested, you still might be risking contracting an STD from her. Some (like herpes and HIV) may be asymptomatic. So I would recommend, from a strictly medical point of view, that you should not have unprotected sex with her without HER getting tested first.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I got tested and everything is fine. Just to reiterate, she has not been physical in the last 4 months. Her EA+PA started when she had a short duration travel and has not met him since. I am 100% sure that if OM was a short distance away, she would have separated (if not D by now) and started living in with him. I am sure she has been sexually active over the phone in the past (based on observed suspicious behavior). Currently I think she speaks to him only occasionally and she is much more into him than he is into her (he is single, probably lives a promiscuous life and she knows it).

You just can't be sure of this. The best way to move forward is to assume that she is and to protect yourself.
Quote
So, a few days ago she started a conversation and then said something 'good' about a significant early phase of our R. In reality she was putting me down hard in a subtle way to achieve two goals. 1st was that she was revising that phase to bolster the narrative that she is a better fit with her AP. 2nd was to get a reaction from me which would confirm her suspicions that I know about her A. Recall that I have a boundary that I refuse to hear things that I recognize are putting me down and things that are of no benefit to me. What she said fit both criteria, so I told her to excuse me from that discussion and that she was better off discussing with her support system.

And the above reaction was all she needed. She blew up and started screaming. I tried to remove myself physically, but she chased me down continuously (like she would do in the past during our R). At one point she shouted - "I am very smart, and I know what you know". Then she followed it up by cursing me for making her unhappy and "letting me go". And she shouted that I am trying to run away from blame and now blaming her for the D. She was unleashing self-righteous anger at me.

You know what Peter?

This is excellent news.

Her blowing up, getting angry, trying to drag you into a discussion - it proves that what you are doing is working.

IMHO, you’re DBing like a boss - Coming here for advice first, not engaging, not arguing, extricating yourself from discussions etc.

She is reacting the way she is because your DB is working. She is pissed off that you don’t seem to care and she is pissed off that you’re making it hard for her to decide what to do. She wanted a quick exit stage left, but instead she’s worrying that someone else is going to get you and wondering why she can’t push your buttons any more.

I’d take this whole thing as a positive development. You’ve done great 180’s here - from begging to legging!

Whatever you do, keep it up. No discussions. No talking about her affair. Don’t give a hint about what you’re thinking. No acknowledgment you know anything about an affair, nor show any care about anything she does. No relationship talks, no arguments, no anger, no shouting, just a smile no matter what and keep busy. Every time she tries to pin you down for something, have an excuse READY TO GO. “Sorry, I organised to meet a guy from Facebook Marketplace about a bike. I’m going out shopping for hiking boots. I want to go for a run before the sun goes down. I’m getting beer with a friend. I promised (your son) a walk.”

ALWAYS have an exit strategy planned in advance. She wants to pin you down for a R talk and an argument because she wants to confirm you’re a shitty person and feel better about leaving. Don’t give her the chance.
Quote
so I told her to excuse me from that discussion and that she was better off discussing with her support system.

Fn oath Peter!!!! This is Jedi-Master DBing. You da man!

The steps go: 1. Boundary broken, 2. Calmly exit, 3. GAL, 4. Zero fks.

I bet her head is spinning with doubt.
How goes the last few days, Peter?
Originally Posted by Kind18
How goes the last few days, Peter?

My apologies, I have been very busy with work and things at home have been sort of the same. She has continued to try to fight, and she's been cooking up opportunities to be mean. If you recall, I had been planning a GAL adventure without involving her. She got wind of it (saw my screens) and asked me when I am going. I gave a vague answer and a two-week window (it was the truth as I hadn't got the tickets). She was fine and then after I made my tickets, she again asked me if I made the tickets and if yes, the exact dates. I said yes and told her the dates. Unexpectedly she started fighting, telling me that she has plans - that came out of the blue. I calmly told her that I'll find a solution, but I can't change my plans. I proposed a reasonable solution, but she continued to be angry. I had to be a bit involved in this particular discussion as my son's care has to be properly planned out during that time. But I stayed calm and firm. And eventually she moved on and appeared to have accepted it.

Next morning, she again got mean over something and started saying the usual things about me being fake at this time and untrustworthy. I was working while she was shouting so I told her I was busy at work, and she needs to leave the room immediately.

She also said she wants a break from sex as she needs space. I was fine with it but today I got the feeling that she is trying to turn me on. I did not bite. Not sure if she is testing me (although I don't know what the test case is or the motivation behind her test) or she if just wants me to make a move on her as she is feeling horny. Strange behavior, nevertheless. I am not sure how to handle this. And yeah, as expected she said she is okay with me having sex with someone else while on the break. She pressed me on it and finally I responded saying "I won't have sex with someone else" and then exited. Should I have responded? If yes, how?

She has been planning some family activities for evenings and weekends. I go along (reminder that we are actually living like a family, coparenting, share all the housework etc). Towards the end of one such activity, which went quite well especially between my son and me, she suddenly dropped an absurd revision of a particular time of our lives. I did not respond and did not validate. Overall, I am still validating and empathizing wherever applicable, but I am not inclined to do that under blatant revisions (that includes lies about my actions) and especially not when I am having a good time with my son.
Originally Posted by Kind18
IMHO, you’re DBing like a boss - Coming here for advice first, not engaging, not arguing, extricating yourself from discussions etc.

Thanks for your kind words. DB'ing is making me feel light despite the possibility of my family falling apart and my son growing up without a traditional family and the pain he would have to go through.

Originally Posted by Kind18
... and wondering why she can’t push your buttons any more.

She is certainly not succeeding in pressing my buttons anymore. I used to be very easy to trigger. I recall telling her during many fights that she knew how to press my buttons. I used to wonder how easily she did it even though I would point out some of my trigger points and implore her not to press those. I can't believe I used to fall so easily. I should have been emotionally stronger.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Whatever you do, keep it up. No discussions. No talking about her affair. Don’t give a hint about what you’re thinking. No acknowledgment you know anything about an affair, nor show any care about anything she does. No relationship talks, no arguments, no anger, no shouting, just a smile no matter what and keep busy.

Great summary. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Every time she tries to pin you down for something, have an excuse READY TO GO....
...ALWAYS have an exit strategy planned in advance.

A bit hard to preplan given our live-in and parenting situation. It a "pre-IHS" if I may call it that. But yeah, I should probably have a few just to be able to apply in some situations. "I have to work", "I need to sleep", "I need to go out to meet X", "I need to go to Home Depot / REI" are probably general enough.
Quote
She also said she wants a break from sex as she needs space. I was fine with it but today I got the feeling that she is trying to turn me on. I did not bite. Not sure if she is testing me (although I don't know what the test case is or the motivation behind her test) or she if just wants me to make a move on her as she is feeling horny. Strange behavior, nevertheless. I am not sure how to handle this. And yeah, as expected she said she is okay with me having sex with someone else while on the break. She pressed me on it and finally I responded saying "I won't have sex with someone else" and then exited. Should I have responded? If yes, how?

Absolutely textbook behaviour. She wants to test if you push for sex so she will know she has you as her backup plan, and is trying to smoke you out by withholding sex. It’s also a test to see if your changes (lack of pandering to her and seemingly getting on with your life without her) are real or fake.

She’s wobbling big time, and this is a check that her old monkey branch is still going to be solid while she’s transferring weight to a new branch.

Your response was absolutely perfect. Made your position clear, but didn’t attempt to control or manipulate her behaviour or whatever she is choosing to do. “I’m not going to have sex with other people.” And leave.

You’re doing so, so well!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/20/22 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
Next morning, she again got mean over something and started saying the usual things about me being fake at this time and untrustworthy.
No need to respond to this behavior
Originally Posted by PeterB
I was working while she was shouting so I told her I was busy at work, and she needs to leave the room immediately.
Good job!
Originally Posted by PeterB
She also said she wants a break from sex as she needs space.
I would have preferred you to be the one to suggest it.
Originally Posted by PeterB
I was fine with it but today I got the feeling that she is trying to turn me on.
Probably
Originally Posted by PeterB
I did not bite. Not sure if she is testing me (although I don't know what the test case is or the motivation behind her test) or she if just wants me to make a move on her as she is feeling horny.
She wants to see if you are still attached
Originally Posted by PeterB
Strange behavior, nevertheless.

Not really it is pretty typical WW shenanigans
Originally Posted by PeterB
I am not sure how to handle this.
How so? She said no sex so you don't have sex
Originally Posted by PeterB
And yeah, as expected she said she is okay with me having sex with someone else while on the break.
Thanks for the permission WW
Originally Posted by PeterB
She pressed me on it and finally I responded saying "I won't have sex with someone else" and then exited. Should I have responded? If yes, how?
Truthfully I wouldn't have answered. You should have put a $hit eating grin on your face
Originally Posted by PeterB
She has been planning some family activities for evenings and weekends. I go along (reminder that we are actually living like a family, coparenting, share all the housework etc).

I would go on some and decline some and go out and GAL like a madman
Originally Posted by PeterB
Towards the end of one such activity, which went quite well especially between my son and me, she suddenly dropped an absurd revision of a particular time of our lives.
Yep
Originally Posted by PeterB
I did not respond and did not validate.
Good!
Originally Posted by PeterB
Overall, I am still validating and empathizing wherever applicable, but I am not inclined to do that under blatant revisions (that includes lies about my actions) and especially not when I am having a good time with my son.
Agreed!

Peter I think you have a chance to turn this around and I don't say that often. So much of this is timing and opportunity. The fact that OM lives far away doesn't give the monkey a very sturdy branch. You need to tighten up your game and GAL like a madman. You want to display to her that you will be just fine without her. If you can do that and stay consistent with no setbacks I think you have a punchers chance.
My WW almost encouraged me to sleep with someone else. This is the WW mindset. "If I can get them to sleep with someone else then that will a) free me from my guilt b) free me from my marital vows c) give me an excuse for what I am doing d) let me know that I am making the right choice."

There have been LBSs that have fallen for this ploy, and then are shocked when the WS starts telling people that they are leaving because the LBS cheated on them. Happens all the time.
Originally Posted by LH19
Peter I think you have a chance to turn this around and I don't say that often. So much of this is timing and opportunity. The fact that OM lives far away doesn't give the monkey a very sturdy branch. You need to tighten up your game and GAL like a madman. You want to display to her that you will be just fine without her. If you can do that and stay consistent with no setbacks I think you have a punchers chance.

I'm GAL'ing but unable to "GAL like a madman", because of responsibilities at home. Two points:

- It is unclear if she will feel my absence just by physical circumstances, as such circumstances are not there (such as staying in different households and LBS is not giving fks). I am preprogrammed to do a lot around the house and for my son and that is just me. Not doing anything or reducing it is not a 180 I'm comfortable with, and it would appear to be "more of the same" (in MWD's words) as she has always of complained that I don't do anything around the house. "I don't do anything" complaints must have reached absurd proportions in her mind leading up to BD (as she built up her case for D). And they were shocking at and after BD itself (during the inevitable discussions during and just after). I actually don't care anymore what she thinks if I continue all my responsibilities at home or even increase them. This is perhaps a form of detachment.

- Otoh it is clear that she will register that I will be just fine without her, as long as I GAL consistently and stay true to myself at the same time. I am doing new fun things that I never used to do before, staying positive at all times, staying focused on the goals as well as greatly enjoying the journey towards those goals etc.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
My WW almost encouraged me to sleep with someone else. This is the WW mindset.

I'm glad you didn't bite although she got you close (if that's what you meant). Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have been piecing at this time.

The first time she told me that few months ago, I looked at her with a "are you crazy?" kinda look on my face. She responded with something like this - "I was so possessive about you. I used to be a jealous wife who would not want you to even look at other women. But now I don't care. Whatever!!! Just let me know when you do it and with who.".

Originally Posted by SteveLW
There have been LBSs that have fallen for this ploy, and then are shocked when the WS starts telling people that they are leaving because the LBS cheated on them. Happens all the time.

This is a crazy level of manipulation and table turning.
Quote
This is a crazy level of manipulation and table turning.

Nope. It’s actually normal, repeated and consistent behaviour for waywards/walk-aways/MLCs.

You need to keep shifting your expectations. Expect the worst. Think of the dumbest, most outrageous possible scenario - and expect that.

Quote
Peter I think you have a chance to turn this around and I don't say that often.

As you probably picked up LH19, I’m also getting that vibe.

Peter is DBing like a boss, and she’s wobbling big time.

But need to be consistent. Could easily be another 6-12 months before there’s any real signs.

Keep doing what you’re doing Peter. Calm, measured, GAL, avoid interactions at all costs, and make decisions for you and never for her. Always come here first.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/21/22 11:12 AM
Yep and Peter if she commits don’t disappear and sweep it under the rug. Tough times is a perfect example of why you should not.
Originally Posted by Kind18
You need to keep shifting your expectations. Expect the worst. Think of the dumbest, most outrageous possible scenario - and expect that.

You bet. I have imagined a few scenarios that leads up to D and any related craziness. "Preemptive detaching", if you will.
Originally Posted by LH19
Yep and Peter if she commits don’t disappear and sweep it under the rug. Tough times is a perfect example of why you should not.

Yeah, no way. She has too much baggage in her mind and she has converted this into a duel, that she can't "let me win". Also, I don't think commitment means there same to everyone. She might commit, but has she really?

And if we start piecing, there will be a piecing thread, if we D, there will be a post-D thread.
Yeah, +1 on LH19. I didn't do this on BD1, so who knows how long before BD2, she was having an EA.

I should have continued to DB well past BD1.

To be fair, I didn't fully understand my contribution to BD2 until it was too late.

Anyway, don't want to hijack your thread. Having piecing conditions is fine. Indeed whilst my D is all but inevitable, I know what would need to happen if that rare case STBXW wants back.
It's been 10 days of relative peace (including an unexpected positive re-revision of one part of our MR) until today morning. She has snapped (understatement) at me many times during the last 10 days but I was always able to use boundary enforcement effectively. Once she cornered me while driving back at night with my son sleeping in the rear seat. I tried to enforce boundary, but she was not interested and continued to bash me. After that I completely stopped responding even with uhms/nods/okays etc, for the rest of the distance - about 10 mins or so. She stopped. Back at home I communicated calmly whatever minimum was required to wind up for the night. She was angry inside but didn't escalate further. Any advice what to do when she starts disrespectful conduct while I am driving?

Fast forward to today morning and she ran as fast as she can into her castle while throwing Molotov Cocktails at my lawn. Let me walk you through.

Yesterday she suggested we go out somewhere and we did. Just before leaving she snapped at me on a ridiculous topic - apparently, I didn't put on the right pants on my son. She quickly got pretty nasty I didn't bite. The rest of the day went nicely, and she even showed what could have been affection. After coming back, we were all resting when she came into my room and started a discussion. She went over our revised marriage. She went on for about 15 mins while I listened. I validated about two times and finally excused myself.

During the discussion she admitted that she was nasty in the morning. I could easily sense that she didn't have one bit of remorse and didn't apologize (not that I asked for one). Instead, she blamed her behavior on me and said that she is the worst form of herself around me. She said how she was confused but she is full of bitterness towards me that she cannot overcome. She also wondered aloud if she should consider staying in this M with no real love, but still have a great time by living together and 'coparenting'. She also made excuses for having sex with me by telling me about a bit of knowledge gained from a 'women's magazine', that pre-divorce sex is common and awesome, it means nothing, and the girl should eventually be strong enough to D. Then she dropped ILYBINILWY. The one-sided chat ended cordially after a bit. Today was supposed to be her 'me' day so she reminded me of that after dinner and then told me that I should watch him after breakfast while she leaves for the day.

Today morning I woke up and was making breakfast for all three of us. I decided to feed him breakfast too as I planned up my day around him. But no sooner than she saw me making breakfast for him she blew up saying that she did not get a good night's sleep and that I should have slept with him. Started swearing at me in front of my son and chased me around while I left the scene. Things such as this were said - "Fu*k this marriage, I don't fu*king care", "You know what let's get a D tomorrow", "You have done nothing good for me after I said I want divorce".

I was eventually able to lose her by going to the garage after she forcefully prevented me from feeding him breakfast. All the while she screamed that I do not do anything meaningful for my son (which has been a familiar accusation after BD). She said that she spends the whole day with him and that she needs a break. All this is so mindboggling that I am not going to spend time here writing about it. She also repeatedly accused me of making her a bad person and shouted that she wants a D asap. She also made vomiting sounds to express her disgust of me and that she can't stand it when I am near her. I did not respond to any of these. After breakfast I took my son to a room to play with him and she suddenly reappeared and started off again. I left the room, and she didn't follow this time.

While I was working out in the garage, I found out that she wrote me about 15 messages. Then she left the house for her 'me' day and then wrote more messages. I have not read any of them and have spent quality time with my son (she knows I have not read them as its Whatsapp), until a break to write this up.

Thoughts and advice?
During above episode she once walked up to me in a huff and asked me - "Tell me why do you want to stay in this marriage?". I did not answer but I acknowledged the question by looking at her and nodding. She told me forcefully "you need to answer". Then my son pulled me to attend to something and she walked away. How should I respond to a question like this?
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/30/22 09:15 PM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
It's been 10 days of relative peace (including an unexpected positive re-revision of one part of our MR) until today morning. She has snapped (understatement) at me many times during the last 10 days but I was always able to use boundary enforcement effectively.
You say 10 days of "relative peace", but also that she's snapped at you many times. Doesn't sound peaceful.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Any advice what to do when she starts disrespectful conduct while I am driving?
I'm not sure other than to avoid being in a vehicle with her. Maybe others have thoughts.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She went on for about 15 mins while I listened. I validated about two times and finally excused myself.
Good job.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Instead, she blamed her behavior on me and said that she is the worst form of herself around me.
It's incredibly common around here for the WAS/WS to blame the LBS for the WAS/WS's actions. Remember, for your own sanity, a persons' actions are a reflection of their own character, not yours.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She said how she was confused but she is full of bitterness towards me that she cannot overcome. She also wondered aloud if she should consider staying in this M with no real love, but still have a great time by living together and 'coparenting'.
I'd believe her when she says she's confused, but remember to trust her actions not her words.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She also made excuses for having sex with me by telling me about a bit of knowledge gained from a 'women's magazine', that pre-divorce sex is common and awesome, it means nothing, and the girl should eventually be strong enough to D.
She's going to seek out justification & validation for her actions & decisions.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Then she dropped ILYBINILWY.
Also incredibly common.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Started swearing at me in front of my son and chased me around while I left the scene. Things such as this were said - "Fu*k this marriage, I don't fu*king care", "You know what let's get a D tomorrow", "You have done nothing good for me after I said I want divorce".
There's no excuse for this behavior. You can not condone or allow her to scream and swear at you in front of your child.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She also made vomiting sounds to express her disgust of me and that she can't stand it when I am near her.
It sounds like she has absolutely no respect for you. That's ugly behavior.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I did not respond to any of these.
Good.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I have not read any of them and have spent quality time with my son (she knows I have not read them as its Whatsapp), until a break to write this up.

Thoughts and advice?
No idea what the messages say, but you're smart for focusing on your son and waiting. I wouldn't respond emotionally, IF at all. Unless there's a critical item about your son, it's unlikely you need to / should respond.

Originally Posted by PeterB
During above episode she once walked up to me in a huff and asked me - "Tell me why do you want to stay in this marriage?". I did not answer but I acknowledged the question by looking at her and nodding. She told me forcefully "you need to answer". Then my son pulled me to attend to something and she walked away. How should I respond to a question like this?
It sounds like she's trying to be ugly and mean to get a rise out of you and make you be the bad guy / pull the trigger. You don't need to respond at all. However, if you have to say something "I'll have to think about that.", then leave the room.

PeterB - That's a lot of anger and hate sent your way. Hang in there.
Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
It's been 10 days of relative peace (including an unexpected positive re-revision of one part of our MR) until today morning. She has snapped (understatement) at me many times during the last 10 days but I was always able to use boundary enforcement effectively.
You say 10 days of "relative peace", but also that she's snapped at you many times. Doesn't sound peaceful.

Thats why I said relative peace. I have been able to enforce boundaries, there have been only two outbursts (including once in the car). She had been doing positive things like planning outings and being warm. She has also initiated sex (although she said she does not want to) and re-revised certain things to positive after making them negative post-BD. Yet, I had been expecting a run back to her castle, but I was not expecting it to happen with so much force and venom.

Originally Posted by PeterB
"You have done nothing good for me after I said I want divorce".

I wanted to revisit this statement here. What is she expecting - for me to beg her to stay or shower her with affection and other things? Any suggested response to this?

Originally Posted by BL42
No idea what the messages say, but you're smart for focusing on your son and waiting. I wouldn't respond emotionally, IF at all. Unless there's a critical item about your son, it's unlikely you need to / should respond.

Just read her messages. It's the same things said during BD but with more venom and swearing. Repeated that she is over me several times. And re-telling a quote that she had found in a 'women's magazine' that converts this into a duel and that she can't let me win as it would mean she has handed me power over her and her happiness (if anyone knows that quote, please DO NOT post it here as it can appear in search engines). She also repented that she did not D soon after BD and that I am moving on as if her misery never happened, that I have done no self-reflection. All this is pretty much a 180 behavior from yesterday. Note that post-BD and pre-DB, I had written detailed emails and has long discussions about my self-reflection and validating whatever she said.

At least to me, I know I have done deep self-reflection and owned up genuinely to all my mistakes. I did not ask her to listen to my side of the story. I entered a continuous journey of self-improvement, and I am happy about that. I have also forgiven her for her mistakes and myself for my mistakes and that has given me peace.

I have not responded to these messages. It's possible that she will blow up again at not getting a response.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/30/22 10:56 PM
You know - sometimes - and I’m not saying this is necessarily your wife - but sometimes women threaten divorce in an attempt to get their husband to “fight for them”. (Men don’t seem to do this, for whatever reason). Whether that’s her or not I can’t know, but she does seem to be having some second thoughts now that you’re not fighting her on the divorce and are giving her a taste of what life would be like without you.

Perhaps the stance to take would be to tell her “Divorce is not what I want, but since you seem to still be determined to divorce, it seems like you could at least be kinder about breaking my heart”.

Or, if you DON’T want her back - because she’s pretty abusive! - then stop sleeping with her and say “ I can’t sleep with someone who is divorcing me and not in love with me. Let’s just put our children first and part amicably. I set you free and hope you find happiness.”

Whichever you decide, the fighting in front of your autistic son has to stop. If it’s legal in your state, try secretly recording her when she’s doing this in your sons presence - this might help you if custody becomes an issue.
Originally Posted by PeterB
"You have done nothing good for me after I said I want divorce".

I wanted to revisit this statement here. What is she expecting - for me to beg her to stay or shower her with affection and other things? Any suggested response to this?[/quote]

Who cares what she is expecting. Look at her, hold eye contact and say:"That must be frustrating. Is that how you feel?"

Decide what type of behavior YOU want to practice with her and then do it. What would you be practicing if you said the words above?
Originally Posted by PeterB
During above episode she once walked up to me in a huff and asked me - "Tell me why do you want to stay in this marriage?".

Again, lots of ways to respond. I believe the way you behaved was perfect.

Another option:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2062630#Post2062630
Peter,

I'm going to go against the grain here, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

After reading your most recent interactions with your W, I would call her bluff and agree with her that D is probably best. Flip the script on her and make her feel like you are now the one leaving her. I'm not suggesting that you act like a jerk, quite the contrary. I would start acting like she has finally killed all your love for her, and that you are now happy and content to move forward in life without her.

Stop having sex with her, stop making her breakfast, stop accepting her invites to hang out. Be a great father, be civil with your W, validate her feelings, and then agree with her every time she mentions divorce. Start being mysterious, like you have finally had an epiphany that your life without her is going to be epic!

My point is that I don't think she really wants a divorce, she is doing everything in her power to convince herself though. She's constantly baiting you (great job not taking the bait btw) and insulting you. I think a man eventually has to command respect, because if your partner doesn't respect you, they can't love you.

Call her bluff. And if calling her bluff is the final straw, give her what she wants and let her go.
Originally Posted by Thornton
Peter,

I'm going to go against the grain here, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

After reading your most recent interactions with your W, I would call her bluff and agree with her that D is probably best. Flip the script on her and make her feel like you are now the one leaving her. I'm not suggesting that you act like a jerk, quite the contrary. I would start acting like she has finally killed all your love for her, and that you are now happy and content to move forward in life without her.

Stop having sex with her, stop making her breakfast, stop accepting her invites to hang out. Be a great father, be civil with your W, validate her feelings, and then agree with her every time she mentions divorce. Start being mysterious, like you have finally had an epiphany that your life without her is going to be epic!

My point is that I don't think she really wants a divorce, she is doing everything in her power to convince herself though. She's constantly baiting you (great job not taking the bait btw) and insulting you. I think a man eventually has to command respect, because if your partner doesn't respect you, they can't love you.

Call her bluff. And if calling her bluff is the final straw, give her what she wants and let her go.

This is not against the grain, this IS the grain! Peter, see my response in Toughtimes thread. I would word it a bit different though. Peter, start moving your own life forward. She'll either like what she sees or she won't, but the sex, breakfast, and hanging out certainly are not working.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/31/22 03:48 PM
Actually, I would argue that the sex, breakfast and hanging out have given her pause - hence her hedging about maybe continuing to live together.

If this behavior is different from your previous behavior it can be a good thing. If previous you was aloof, then being more present is a 180. She seems to be protesting too much right now.

Sometimes, in a situation like this, a simple “I don’t want a divorce but I won’t stand in your way if that’s what you want” will suffice. If she asks you why you want the marriage, you can say “Because we loved each other once and I believe we could again”.

BUT - all that presupposes that you WANT to stay married to her. If you’ve realized you’re better off without her, then the approach is different.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is not against the grain, this IS the grain! Peter, see my response in Toughtimes thread. I would word it a bit different though. Peter, start moving your own life forward. She'll either like what she sees or she won't, but the sex, breakfast, and hanging out certainly are not working.

Is this the post you referred to?
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934418#Post2934418

Btw I was not preparing breakfast in a mushy romantic good morning sort of way smile. I woke up hungry, so I had to make a breakfast item anyway and I had already made up my mind to feed him breakfast. She does the same thing. As I said earlier, none of my house duties have gone away and neither has her habit of screaming at me that I don't do anything.
Originally Posted by kml
Actually, I would argue that the sex, breakfast and hanging out have given her pause - hence her hedging about maybe continuing to live together.

These resemble day-to-day MR activities of course and they may remind her of what life can be like and hence lead to a pause. This is a side-effect of our in-home situation though, as I am focused on me and my son right now. I am doing them as a head of the household should, but I have no expectations that they might make her stay. I am able to enjoy the present (this took some work) and I am happy that my son is enjoying that until it lasts. The things that I do around the house seem to be more visible to her now but that gets suspended when she lets her bitterness explode like yesterday.

Originally Posted by kml
If this behavior is different from your previous behavior it can be a good thing. If previous you was aloof, then being more present is a 180. She seems to be protesting too much right now.

I have never been aloof. I have been there for her emotionally for important things like her career, social/friends issues etc. Physically I do a lot around the house (although she denies this), my son's always-on therapist and everything else a super-present dad is expected to be (she accepts and denies per situation). What she does complain about is not being able to talk to me about mundane things because she would not know how I would take it. I used to be very irritable and that affected her a lot. What starts off as a mundane irritation would often lead to a fight after she reacts very negatively to my irritation. No control of emotions from both sides. My irritability has gone away completely now and I'm able to slow-mo my reactions.


Originally Posted by kml
“Because we loved each other once and I believe we could again”.

Good sentence. Another good sentence is what R2C pointed to - "Because I want you to be happy". They are genuine and simple.

Originally Posted by kml
BUT - all that presupposes that you WANT to stay married to her. If you’ve realized you’re better off without her, then the approach is different.

Do I want to stay married to her - yes, but I have recently been thinking of the other side too. Loving another woman and having her love me back and perhaps starting another family could be a great thing. But then again, keeping the current family together with genuine love would also be a great thing and that is why I am still in it. Is that even possible given her current mindset and behavior? I am quite doubtful. What I have no doubt over is that I have to prioritize myself and GAL and detach. These will help me in the future regardless of where this R leads.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 05/31/22 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
But then again, keeping the current family together with genuine love would also be a great thing and that is why I am still in it. Is that even possible given her current mindset and behavior?
If she is currently having an affair then the answer is no. Also, she will need to lose the resentment and be able to forgive you. That usually takes time and space.
Thornton and kml both give you great advise. You have to look at your sitch and determine which way you want to behave and how you want to be treated.
I think perhaps you should get some IC and really explore if you want to be with this person.

Sometimes, we feel like the marriage has worked in the past so surely it can work in the future. We want to keep our kids’ family together, and in that process of “validating”, we can fall into a trap of being unable to identify where the line in the sand is.

She’s being a b*tch because she wants you to leave her so it’s not her fault. It’s very simple, and common behaviour.

Two questions for you:

1. What would it take for you to go “I’ve had enough of this, I don’t want to be with this person”? Where is your line in the sand? What would she have to do/say/be for you to check out? This is an important question, because if your account is true, she is an abuser and I think you should be just about there.

2. Picture your best mate and his wife. Imagine he takes you out for beers and tells you his wife is doing this to him. What would you say?

These questions are important because they give you an external perspective on your situation.

Sometimes, people DB incredibly well - and their partner is still a garden variety arsehole.

You deserve better than this Peter.

In terms of your questions “how do I respond to xxxx”… I know you are doing IHS and you have a child, but you give her way too many opportunities. You need to reign in the opportunity for her to play her BS games. I know you can’t be away from your house 24/7, but try these things:

1. Avoid interaction with her as much as possible
2. Turn off social media
3. Turn your phone off if she’s text bombing you
4. Zero sex under all circumstances
5. Setup another bed in the house and tell her to move into a different room, DONT ASK. “You’ve made it clear you aren’t in love with me, I respect that, you sleep in the study now.”
6. No breakfast. No meals together.
7. You’re either out exercising/shopping/gym/walking, or you’re having 1 on 1 time with your son.

I get that you can’t stamp out 100% of interactions with IHS and without blocking her phone etc. But there’s way too many opportunities for you two to interact. You need to absolutely minimise every possible chance. “Tell me why you’re so happy. Tell me why we should be together.” - “I’m going for a run, bye!” and leave.
Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is not against the grain, this IS the grain! Peter, see my response in Toughtimes thread. I would word it a bit different though. Peter, start moving your own life forward. She'll either like what she sees or she won't, but the sex, breakfast, and hanging out certainly are not working.

Is this the post you referred to?
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934418#Post2934418

Btw I was not preparing breakfast in a mushy romantic good morning sort of way smile. I woke up hungry, so I had to make a breakfast item anyway and I had already made up my mind to feed him breakfast. She does the same thing. As I said earlier, none of my house duties have gone away and neither has her habit of screaming at me that I don't do anything.

Yes. There is also a sticky entitled something like "You will not die". That is another must read. LBSs think that the end of their marriage is the end of their life. It isn't.
I'll chime in and say that supporting D is a good tactic. I'm doing this now. I'm doing the leg work for mediation for a Parenting Plan, and I'm about to take lead on financial settlement. Pretty sure SteveLW raised this on my thread. PeterB, like you, my STBXW is seething anger because I'm not giving her the simple justification she desperately wants. By leading the D my way, she's also angry at not being in control, the fantasy D she envisaged is not there. It's typical for them to find anything to be upset about (I got an SMS about leaves in the pool. It's under a tree, that happens every day). Or to ask for something so they can get upset that it wasn't done, or done well.

This is all possible because I quickly realised how much happier I'll be with a D. I'm not intending to win her back. And it puts things on my terms, not hers. If you truely think you can live with D, then go for it. Show her what D looks like, and put things in motion. It's hard, I know. And you don't necessarily need to be quick. Just start the process. I'm not going to initiate the process to sell our house. She's the one complaining about being unable to live IHS. She can sell the house and move out if it's such a problem.

I don't know when the anger subsides (two months now for me), but I know it's a reflection of her, not me. In my first BD, when the anger subsided, she started to come around. But that doesn't always happen. My BD2 is different, and I'm prepared for anger for a long time.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Setup another bed in the house and TELL HER to move into a different room, DONT ASK. “You’ve made it clear you aren’t in love with me, I respect that, you sleep in the study now.”
How you do this is very important. Most likely a good 180 for you. Every step is important. Let her be as emotional as she wants. You are the rock and can handle it. She could be angry. She could be happy.

Make your bedroom more manly is also a good idea.
Originally Posted by Kind18
I think perhaps you should get some IC and really explore if you want to be with this person.

Sometimes, we feel like the marriage has worked in the past so surely it can work in the future. We want to keep our kids’ family together, and in that process of “validating”, we can fall into a trap of being unable to identify where the line in the sand is.

Yeah the line in the sand is very hard to identify. I am holding on to the thought you mentioned - that it has worked in the past - not knowing what that entails for the future even if she decides to stay. Currently she is hedging.

Originally Posted by Kind18
She’s being a b*tch because she wants you to leave her so it’s not her fault. It’s very simple, and common behaviour.

That will not happen due to these nasty behaviors alone. However, it may happen if this drags on for too long. For how long? I don't know. But I have been thinking that having another child will be great - 2 is what I always wanted, and it won't happen with her - she delayed the first one by years, which has been a negative undercurrent in our M. And then she wouldn't even discuss about having a 2nd one until my own unhappiness reached a point where I did not want to go through that with her. Then suddenly as recently as early Oct she told me we should think about a 2nd child. I did not say no but I did not commit either. And then in Dec she starts and A.


Originally Posted by Kind18
This is an important question, because if your account is true, she is an abuser and I think you should be just about there.

The account is milder than what actually happened. I did not write much about the content of her words. I once landed in emergency due to anxiety caused by her words.

Originally Posted by Kind18
2. Picture your best mate and his wife. Imagine he takes you out for beers and tells you his wife is doing this to him. What would you say?

Thanks for asking me these hard questions. I'm a bit scared of answering them. It's really family ideals and my ASD son's well-being that I am holding on to.

Originally Posted by Kind18
1. Avoid interaction with her as much as possible

She starts topics even if I am avoiding or not even in the same space (comes over).

Originally Posted by Kind18
2. Turn off social media

I am only on FB and I log in once every 3 or 4 days. I rarely post. Inevitably, her posts show up on top of my timeline. Today she posted about 10 pics, telling people to glimpse into her past few months - the pics were with her friends and son and none with me smile.

Originally Posted by Kind18
3. Turn your phone off if she’s text bombing you

I am able to just not read them and she knows I am not reading them (she messages on whatsapp). Turning off the phone will show a single tick on her app (meaning not delivered yet).

Originally Posted by Kind18
4. Zero sex under all circumstances

Trying to get there. She herself says she wants to stop and then she tries to seduce me in various ways.

Originally Posted by Kind18
I get that you can’t stamp out 100% of interactions with IHS and without blocking her phone etc. But there’s way too many opportunities for you two to interact. You need to absolutely minimise every possible chance.

We are in a pretty farcical IHS. Even if I try to minimize, she actively interacts. I have to pay more attention to this.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/06/22 10:13 AM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
But I have been thinking that having another child will be great - 2 is what I always wanted, and it won't happen with her - she delayed the first one by years, which has been a negative undercurrent in our M.
Having another child should be about the last thing on your mind right now.

Originally Posted by PeterB
And then she wouldn't even discuss about having a 2nd one until my own unhappiness reached a point where I did not want to go through that with her.
Why do you think she didn't want a 2nd? Did your resentment about this impact the relationship?

Originally Posted by PeterB
Then suddenly as recently as early Oct she told me we should think about a 2nd child. I did not say no but I did not commit either. And then in Dec she starts and A.
Often times a person tries to "find happiness" through major life changes (affair, divorce, new kid...etc.), thinking these things will "make them happy", not realizing they have to look inward.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by Kind18
2. Turn off social media
I am only on FB and I log in once every 3 or 4 days. I rarely post. Inevitably, her posts show up on top of my timeline. Today she posted about 10 pics, telling people to glimpse into her past few months - the pics were with her friends and son and none with me smile.
Seems like an excuse. At least "unfollow" her so her posts don't pop up, causing you to spin.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Originally Posted by Kind18
I get that you can’t stamp out 100% of interactions with IHS and without blocking her phone etc. But there’s way too many opportunities for you two to interact. You need to absolutely minimise every possible chance.
We are in a pretty farcical IHS. Even if I try to minimize, she actively interacts. I have to pay more attention to this.
What are you doing to get out of the house and GAL?
PeterB, one of the mistakes LBSs often make is introducing another person into their situation. These situations are complicated enough, but when the LBS goes against wisdom and starts dating too soon, it just further complicates things. There are a lot of reasons for this, but trust me, it rarely ever makes things better.

In your case you are being tempted in your own mind, it seems, to be wanting another child. So that would be introducing 2 more people into your situation: a new mother (since you have already said it is impossible with your STBX) and the child. You will have plenty of time for that kind of thing later. Right now concentrate on moving your life forward, being the best dad you can be, and setting yourself up for future relationship success. There are no quick fixes, no bandaids to these things. It takes time and work to reach the next chapter of your life.
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
And then she wouldn't even discuss about having a 2nd one until my own unhappiness reached a point where I did not want to go through that with her.
Why do you think she didn't want a 2nd? Did your resentment about this impact the relationship?

Even starting to try for the first child was a huge mental barrier for her. She wanted to prioritize career and has also been scared of getting pregnant. We had initially agreed to have a child 4 years earlier and she postponed. And just before we started trying, she wanted to postpone for another 2 years. The topic for the 2nd did not come up because our first got diagnosed with ASD and our M deteriorated slowly beginning 2021.

I don't have much resentment about not having the 2nd. Its only now that I think I settled for not having something that I really wanted.

Originally Posted by BL42
What are you doing to get out of the house and GAL?

Gym, other physical activities, meeting friends (once a week), taking my son out for 1x1 time which I use to improve his gross motor and language skills.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
PeterB, one of the mistakes LBSs often make is introducing another person into their situation. These situations are complicated enough, but when the LBS goes against wisdom and starts dating too soon, it just further complicates things. There are a lot of reasons for this, but trust me, it rarely ever makes things better.

In your case you are being tempted in your own mind, it seems, to be wanting another child. So that would be introducing 2 more people into your situation: a new mother (since you have already said it is impossible with your STBX) and the child. You will have plenty of time for that kind of thing later. Right now concentrate on moving your life forward, being the best dad you can be, and setting yourself up for future relationship success. There are no quick fixes, no bandaids to these things. It takes time and work to reach the next chapter of your life.

Agreed. The thought came up when I asked myself why I should or should not stay married to her and what could be good after D if we ended in one.
Posted By: kml Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/07/22 04:49 PM
So she didn't really want kids and then had a child on the spectrum? That's a tough hand to be dealt.

Be aware that the odds of having a second child on the spectrum are higher after you've had one - from a 2017 study: "The sibling recurrence rate, defined as the probability of a child having ASD with 1 or more siblings with ASD, has been estimated to be 6.1% to 18.7%"

Would you have the energy and the means to deal with two autistic children, especially if a second was more severely affected?
I wouldn’t be making any rash decisions about further children for many years.

I feel that you don’t appreciate how abusive this person is.

I would recommend you get some professional IC to explore these issues with more depth.

While you applied DB principles very well and she has wobbled somewhat, she still knows she has you in her back pocket, and I don’t think a reconciliation with this person is a good idea.

Just my 2c. IHS is brutally difficult, and it’s going to wear you down emotionally very quickly.

Did you kick her out of the bedroom? Time to start making some power moves.

Quote
Trying to get there. She herself says she wants to stop and then she tries to seduce me in various ways.

That’s BS. Either you’ve stopped or you haven’t. Who cares what she tries to do. IMHO you need to respond with some conviction.
Originally Posted by kml
So she didn't really want kids and then had a child on the spectrum? That's a tough hand to be dealt.

She had always wanted two kids. But when it came to trying, she would say that now is not the time (for a few reasons, the main being that she wanted to hit some professional goals before trying - which is okay to aim for within a reasonable time, but time flew by, and we continued to get older and well past our prime for having children).

Originally Posted by kml
Be aware that the odds of having a second child on the spectrum are higher after you've had one - from a 2017 study: "The sibling recurrence rate, defined as the probability of a child having ASD with 1 or more siblings with ASD, has been estimated to be 6.1% to 18.7%"

Would you have the energy and the means to deal with two autistic children, especially if a second was more severely affected?

Yes this bothers me. I think there is a path to independence for my son (its a humble goal, but in ASD you can never be sure). But if the next one is more severely affected then it can be really problematic. I know of couples who went through with a 2nd because they wanted a sibling who could take care of the 1st born.
Originally Posted by Kind18
I feel that you don’t appreciate how abusive this person is.

Yes, you are right. I am afraid to even admit it properly and accept it. When I did realize a bit last year it sent me into depression.

Originally Posted by Kind18
While you applied DB principles very well and she has wobbled somewhat, she still knows she has you in her back pocket, and I don’t think a reconciliation with this person is a good idea.

Yes, I think she still feels she has me in her pocket. However, that is not with a high level of certainty. She does think that I have put myself in a state where I'll be fine without her and that bothers her (she told me so). In reality, I am worried about both ends - post-divorce and post-reconciliation.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Just my 2c. IHS is brutally difficult, and it’s going to wear you down emotionally very quickly.

Yes it is. I'm hanging on. Trying to be positive - treating this as a gift of time.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Did you kick her out of the bedroom? Time to start making some power moves.

No, mainly because I am very wary of introducing too much of a change to my son's routine. They sleep together in the MB and if she moves out then it could impact him in unknown ways. I sleep in a different bedroom.

Quote
Quote
Trying to get there. She herself says she wants to stop and then she tries to seduce me in various ways.

That’s BS. Either you’ve stopped or you haven’t. Who cares what she tries to do. IMHO you need to respond with some conviction.

Yeah trying to keep the drill holstered. Seems to be working atm.
PB, how are things going?
Originally Posted by SteveLW
PB, how are things going?

My GAL activities are on track. In a few weeks I have a solo outing for a few days. She has been "normal" - no flare-ups since May 31st.

A new situation has come up. A family member of hers has had a good career achievement. This family member, who is in her current support system, and knew about her A all along, had tried to manipulate me after BD (pretending to help but was actually trying to groom me so that D process and post-D life is just as she would have wanted) and also talked [censored] about me to someone important.

It is unusual that she has told me about the achievement. Knowing her, I am sure she wants me to congratulate that family member, although she has not told me that directly. Should I go ahead and congratulate in a word or two? Otoh, she has been shitting on my family members because they have kept away from this entire sitch.
I would not go out of my way to do so, because for me, it would not be genuine to go out of my way express joy for the successes of someone I at best feel neutral about.

If someone else were toasting, I would probably raise a glass.
I’m not going to tell you WHAT to do. Consider the long term.
My FIL stayed out or rather was left out of almost everything when my sitch went down.
Me and FIL were always relatively close during the relationship.
Now, we almost never talk. Haven’t messaged or spoke to him in almost a years time. Except for saying merry Christmas.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/11/22 07:00 AM
My personal opinion is do not go out of your way to reach out to congratulate the family member. If you were in a situation in which you and that person were present and the topic came up a mannerly "congrats" would be appropriate, but there's no need to artificially reach out to someone you know has been deceitful.

I tried to "play nice" / "pretend nothing was going on" with my ExW and her family during IHS and a lot of good that did. Looking back it would've probably been better just to be straightforward and honest about the situation.
Originally Posted by BL42
My personal opinion is do not go out of your way to reach out to congratulate the family member. If you were in a situation in which you and that person were present and the topic came up a mannerly "congrats" would be appropriate, but there's no need to artificially reach out to someone you know has been deceitful.

I tried to "play nice" / "pretend nothing was going on" with my ExW and her family during IHS and a lot of good that did. Looking back it would've probably been better just to be straightforward and honest about the situation.

I have stopped communicating with them completely actually. What did you mean by "and a lot of good that did"? What kind of good or bad?
You might have been sarcastic there smile. My bad.

The family member lives very far away btw. No chance of meeting in person.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/11/22 04:47 PM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
I have stopped communicating with them completely actually. What did you mean by "and a lot of good that did"? What kind of good or bad?
Originally Posted by PeterB
You might have been sarcastic there smile. My bad.
Just meant I ended up in divorced anyway so "playing nice" and "pretending" didn't help. Honestly, I'm not sure it impacted the end result either way - that was probably already determined.

As an example, post-BD and during IHS my now-ExW would invite my parents over for Sunday dinner and cook a great meal. My parents and I knew she was having an affair. In fact, I knew from snooping she was just doing it to "keep the peace" while being mean and vicious behind my/our backs in communications with AP and her friends/family. However, she didn't know we knew. She was putting on a fake face with the dinner invites and my parents and I were pretending out of fear in hopes to keep the family together. Both sides were being fake. In the end the same result happened regardless. With hindsight, it probably would've been better to stand up and say "I know what you're doing. I'm not interested in family dinner while you're doing that.", if not a different result at least for my confidence and reclaiming my power.

Now, that's different than saying "congrats" or not for a job - just an example to demonstrate why you shouldn't "fake it" and try to "nice them back". I think you're right not to engage her family, especially the ones who are being deceitful.
Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
I have stopped communicating with them completely actually. What did you mean by "and a lot of good that did"? What kind of good or bad?
Originally Posted by PeterB
You might have been sarcastic there smile. My bad.
Just meant I ended up in divorced anyway so "playing nice" and "pretending" didn't help. Honestly, I'm not sure it impacted the end result either way - that was probably already determined.

As an example, post-BD and during IHS my now-ExW would invite my parents over for Sunday dinner and cook a great meal. My parents and I knew she was having an affair. In fact, I knew from snooping she was just doing it to "keep the peace" while being mean and vicious behind my/our backs in communications with AP and her friends/family. However, she didn't know we knew. She was putting on a fake face with the dinner invites and my parents and I were pretending out of fear in hopes to keep the family together. Both sides were being fake. In the end the same result happened regardless. With hindsight, it probably would've been better to stand up and say "I know what you're doing. I'm not interested in family dinner while you're doing that.", if not a different result at least for my confidence and reclaiming my power.

Now, that's different than saying "congrats" or not for a job - just an example to demonstrate why you shouldn't "fake it" and try to "nice them back". I think you're right not to engage her family, especially the ones who are being deceitful.

My family does not interact with her or her family anymore. I asked them not to and they agree, for the reason you mentioned: cannot give the impression that nothing is wrong. Also, I know she will cause a major incident by going after my parents and me if and when she talks to them. This is a guarantee. There is everything wrong about what she has done. We know they know about her affair. So being nice to them only panders to their behavior. After BD they actually told my parents that even if D happens, the relationship between them and between my parents and my WW should be as before. It's preposterous. Their daughter has an extramarital affair and is about to victimize an autistic toddler and they expect my family to treat it as if its nothing. When WW talks to her parents on the phone, it's as if nothing happened. They talk/gossip about everything in their lives except the situation at our home.
PeterB,

I feel for you, this sort of thing and IHS is really hard. Stay strong. It does get better, and her behaviour will ease up.

One thing I found that helps is mindfulness. Every time I know I'm entering a room with STBXW, I mentally prepare myself to be aware, focus on any conversation, and not let her get to me. It doesn't work all the time, I do forget. But it means I'm ready for any bad behaviour or attempted fights. I've seen a notable reduction compared to just after BD.

I also mediate, but that is something I've done long before BD1 and BD2. If I don't, I can't regulate my emotions.
Things are as 'usual'. Looks like she continues to be in two minds but just the existence of a mind that might make her stay, also leads to a purposefully maintained equal and opposite mind. The former is unconsciousness and rather inconvenient for her, being that she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.

She still snaps at non-issues and her reactions are strongly negative when I have to request her to do something differently for our son (say, need to feed dinner early today because of such & such. Note that dinner is generally her responsibility except when she can't). There is no attempt whatsoever to understand my reasoning or to even communicate reasonably if she does not agree.

Yesterday morning he woke up early and woke her up, so she was in a surly mood, and unsurprisingly launched cutting comments on me during breakfast. Eg: That I'm sleeping well, while she is not. She actually knows that I'm not sleeping well. I average 5 hrs and on the best of nights, I get 6 hrs of sleep as I have had sleep problems since last year and have always been a very light sleeper. Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.

She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him). I take him to the playground 3-4 times a week but when the need arises, she diminishes that by saying that taking him to the park is a joke. Even here she actually knows that I have been systematically working on his gross motor skills in the playground and playground is a place that he really enjoys, and it is one of the few situations where he demonstrates some appropriate play skills (his general play skills are quite underdeveloped atm).

I am happy with my responses and behavior at home. I have not got even a little angry and not even mildly argued in any situation. But also making sure that I am not a door mat. GAL is going quite fine and feel quite motivated on several things. I am trying to maintain once a week meeting with friends and while it is not fully realized, success rate is improving.

Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.
Man that’s tough to read, Peter.

Bottom line is a woman cannot love a man she doesn’t respect and clearly she’s not being respectful. I don’t think she has any fear of losing you because you tolerate her continual abuse and sh!tty attitude.

I’m going reiterate my previous message to you, call her bluff.

If she wants out so bad, ask her to leave and help her pack. And if she wants to meet up with the OM, then use that as fuel to propel yourself into a badass new life without her.

There has to come a time where you draw a line in the sand for your own self respect.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/19/22 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by PeterB
she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.
Standard Operating Procedure around here for Wayward Spouses. Have you ever read Sandi2's thread on the Mindset of a Wayward Spouse? If not, you should... you'll likely recognize a lot of similarities and better understand their perspective.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.
Ummm...no. She doesn't get to decide this unilaterally. You two have to come to a mutual agreement, likely 50/50, or a judge will decide. Too bad so sad for her if she thinks she can dictate the result. Stand up for your rights and preferences. You've met with an L, right?

Originally Posted by PeterB
She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him).
It's certainly OK to vent here - it's a great forum for that & but try to focus on you and your child and don't give her the luxury of you caring what she thinks. Just be the best dad you can be and the rest will take a care of itself.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I am happy with my responses and behavior at home. I have not got even a little angry and not even mildly argued in any situation. But also making sure that I am not a door mat. GAL is going quite fine and feel quite motivated on several things. I am trying to maintain once a week meeting with friends and while it is not fully realized, success rate is improving.
Awesome! Keep it up.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a PA was already established in your sitch? Maybe there had been a break from it for a bit, but it sounded like the EA portion continued and the PA would likely reoccur when the opportunity presented itself.

PeterB it's one of the hardest things to grasp in this entire saga but you simply can't control her. If she's going to go meet up with AP, you can't stop it. They'll find a way no matter what. I know it's awful being your wife, and being married with a young child, but do what you can to let go:

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Doesn't matter if you're religious or not - drop the "God" part if not - but the concept of serenity and letting go of things you can't control is the right mindset.

Focus on yourself and your son. Easier said than done, trust me I get it.
Peter, I am still sensing in you a tendency to apply logic and meaning to her moods, actions, and words. You have to understand that there is no logic. And that her actions and words will thusly be illogical.

A lot of LBSs get trapped into the: "She is nice, things must be improving! Oh, now she is mean its the end of the world!" My WW was rarely disrespectful or intentionally mean. Obviously, the things she was doing were not nice, but she wasn't doing them to be mean, she was doing them to try to be happy. If she had to hurt me to be happy, well so be it. But she usually was friendly, gracious, polite, even nice. But she firmly had 1 foot out of the door and was actively looking for EAs and PAs.

I would advise you not to assign meaning to what she says or does. She is angry because you exist. You could be the perfect husband and father, and she will still be angry because she sees you and the marriage as antithetical to what she wants and what she thinks she needs to be happy. WWs would wish their husband and marriage away if they could. But they realize that it will take effort and time to actually leave and D, and then if you have kids they know that you will still be "in the picture". This frustrates them. So they lash out. They rewrite history and even current events! They make "I never" and "you never" statements often. They are trying to find a way, against logic, to make their wants and perceived needs a reality.

As far as your question. Obviously this question is rooted in over-attachment. "If she goes it will end the MR." "I need to know if she PAs there." This is a cheeseless tunnel! As BL said, focus on you and your son. Assume that her trip in August is as much about meeting with OM as it is any other reason. Here is the thing, she will never admit, even if you end up D'd, that this trip is about the A. Even if you could know or have evidence, she will deny. Liars and cheaters lie and cheat. This is why discussing the R is not a good idea, you cannot believe anything she says. You are even seeing this in your interactions with her (IE you sleep well, she does not, she does everything, you do nothing).

This trip is outside of your control. What she does on the trip is outside of your control. Knowing if she meets with OM is outside of your control. You should assume she is going to meet with him, then make your decision about how to proceed thusly.

I have a friend who discovered and had evidence that his first wife, now ex, met with her OM at a hotel. He even knew the room she was in had a single bed. His EX admitted to sleeping in the same bed with the OM but was willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that they did NOTHING further. To this day, if you were to ask her, though he is remarried and she was, if not still, she would deny. Because that is what liars and cheaters do. They will defend their lies against all evidence until the end of time.
Originally Posted by Thornton
Man that’s tough to read, Peter.

Bottom line is a woman cannot love a man she doesn’t respect and clearly she’s not being respectful. I don’t think she has any fear of losing you because you tolerate her continual abuse and sh!tty attitude.

I can't prevent what she thinks or says but I am enforcing my boundaries properly. One of which is to leave as soon as I hear something that is insulting. Does she fear that she will lose me? I don't think she does. It's a bit hard to do that in a coparenting scenario and still running the household together. I am not sure if I can do anything other than 180s and GAL - which might not give her the impression that she will lose me.

Originally Posted by Thornton
And if she wants to meet up with the OM, then use that as fuel to propel yourself into a badass new life without her.

Yes, that is for sure. But I do not know if she is intending to meet him. Regardless though I am expecting that and staying calm. I do have a boundary that I will D her if she meets the OM.
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.
Standard Operating Procedure around here for Wayward Spouses. Have you ever read Sandi2's thread on the Mindset of a Wayward Spouse? If not, you should... you'll likely recognize a lot of similarities and better understand their perspective.

Yes I did, more than once smile. All of Sandi2's material has been really helpful.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.
Ummm...no. She doesn't get to decide this unilaterally. You two have to come to a mutual agreement, likely 50/50, or a judge will decide. Too bad so sad for her if she thinks she can dictate the result. Stand up for your rights and preferences. You've met with an L, right?

I have talked to a lawyer already. I am not paying too much attention to this statement because it was said randomly and besides, I am quite resolute that any negotiation of separation or D terms will see me come at it with everything I got. No compromises there and I will absolutely look after myself.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him).
It's certainly OK to vent here - it's a great forum for that & but try to focus on you and your child and don't give her the luxury of you caring what she thinks. Just be the best dad you can be and the rest will take a care of itself.

I am not affected much by her thoughts anymore but sometimes I tend to think what it entails in a possible piecing situation or post-reconciliation if any. I assess whether piecing is even possible under such behaviors.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a PA was already established in your sitch? Maybe there had been a break from it for a bit, but it sounded like the EA portion continued and the PA would likely reoccur when the opportunity presented itself.

Yes they were spotted together so I am assuming that they were in PA. After she came back from her hometown her behavior on the phone and at late nights were highly suspicious (high likelihood of phone sex). Behavior with me was consistent with having an extramarital affair. That I hadn't caught on to it at the time is testament to the blind trust I had in her. I pieced it together only after BD and then used some intel to be sure of certain things. PA lasted for a week. Now its about 6 months of no PA. Last 3 months I have not seen suspicious behaviors on the phone, but it could be that she got cleverer at hiding it.

Originally Posted by BL42
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Doesn't matter if you're religious or not - drop the "God" part if not - but the concept of serenity and letting go of things you can't control is the right mindset.

Focus on yourself and your son. Easier said than done, trust me I get it.

I'm not religious but this quote sounds great to me. This forum and DB principles have taught me to be mindful of what I can and cannot change. This has been a game changer. Negative thoughts around my sitch still come up all the time. Thoughts like why we landed up like this, this situation [censored], what will happen to my ASD son after we D, my wife cheated on me etc. My ability to deal with them is improving though. The fact that I have not got into depression and feel highly motivated on GAL activities makes me feel good.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Peter, I am still sensing in you a tendency to apply logic and meaning to her moods, actions, and words. You have to understand that there is no logic. And that her actions and words will thusly be illogical.

I am mostly unaffected by her ramblings but that is because I have been practicing mindfulness and some DB principles. I think it will be helpful to remind myself that she is guaranteed to be illogical. Lack of logic is even beneficial to a WAS.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
A lot of LBSs get trapped into the: "She is nice, things must be improving! Oh, now she is mean its the end of the world!"

This is a much needed clear and concise encapsulation of this syndrome. I see that some of my mental responses can be characterized by this syndrome, but I also feel that I am not really trapped by this. The meanness is probably just this - "They are trying to find a way, against logic, to make their wants and perceived needs a reality.". End of the day, these are mere ripples in a river. These perturbations will not change the river's course.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
...she usually was friendly, gracious, polite, even nice.

Probably crumbs. These are easy as long as the goal of finding an A is on track.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
As far as your question. Obviously this question is rooted in over-attachment. "If she goes it will end the MR." "I need to know if she PAs there." This is a cheeseless tunnel!

I need to know because I had set a boundary - one where I will D her if she PAs again. If I don't know then it will be tough to go down that road (based on suspicion alone, however credible that suspicion might be).

Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is why discussing the R is not a good idea, you cannot believe anything she says.

Yes this is another of my boundaries. No R talk at all. Neither can I believe her, nor is it beneficial to me in anyway.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I have a friend who discovered and had evidence that his first wife, now ex, met with her OM at a hotel. He even knew the room she was in had a single bed. His EX admitted to sleeping in the same bed with the OM but was willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that they did NOTHING further. To this day, if you were to ask her, though he is remarried and she was, if not still, she would deny. Because that is what liars and cheaters do. They will defend their lies against all evidence until the end of time.

Lol this is hilarious. Will keep this in mind. Actually I am reconciling with the mindset that I don't need to know anything more. She did cheat - I already know that 100%. I also know that she blames me for her action to cheat and will not take responsibility for it. Why bother to discuss this. Not beneficial to me.
Peter, I like it! That was a very strong response. I know that our resolve ebbs and flows, so do not be surprised when the things we've discussed above come flooding back. I know I had good days, and I had bad days in my DB journey. As time went on it swung from more bad than good days, to more good than bad days. I think you are well on your way in that journey. But, as with all of us, there are still some cracks. We find ways to convince ourselves that we need to know what the WAS/WS is doing. And we can come up with some very good reasons for it. But if I could count on my fingers the number of LBSs that came here saying that a PA, or another PA, was the final straw, but then found out about a new PA and hedged on that I would need 17 hands to count all of the fingers.

We want to know because we WANT to know. Understanding this and admitting this helps us move forward. I was an obsessive snooper. If you read my threads you will see that was my biggest struggle in becoming emotionally detached. Obsessing about where she was, what she was doing, and whom she was doing it with. And due to my background I could read an electronic trail to piece things together. BUT, it was holding me back from being fully detached. I could make excuses for why I needed the intel, but as the vets here taught me, I already had all I needed to know to make an informed decision, but I still obsessed about what she was doing. Deep down it was a wishful thinking that she wasn't engaging in the things that I suspected. But as I said to you above, it was really a cheeseless tunnel that I kept impulsively running down.

What I can tell you is worrying about what she is or isn't doing on this trip is not emotional detachment.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 06/22/22 02:20 PM
Peter

So I disagree with the last poster that a PA is a cheeseless tunnel for you if it is a true boundary for you. I believe you that if she PAs again you are done. The only thing you need to do is to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.
Strength and clarity heals your mind.
Update: I was on a weeklong solo trip, and now I am back. It was awesome. Things at home - well she has been okay. Extremely sensitive overall and easy to get triggered and straight aways gets nasty if triggered. Other times she is nice. Few days ago, she told me that she has 'come back a bit'. I did not react.

However today she was being over-the-top nasty again. I was doing something with my son, and he went into a wild tantrum. She inserted herself into it and basically took it to a (one-sided) fight while my son was watching. Her tactics are crazy effective, and it did work me up, so I immediately told her that the conversation is over. She left after she realized I was not giving attention. An hour later while I was doing something personal, she came back at me again (this is a very predictable pattern - where she comes back to an argument after it is seemingly over and then makes wild accusations about the previous episode which I thought had ended the conversation). She angrily told me that I treated her like [censored], shouted at her and I was the same as before. Then she started piling on insults, so I got up and left. Her parting shot was to ask me to get out of her space (I was already in a different floor). The truth of the first encounter was that I had told her 'Conversation is over" in a firm tone, twice, after I realized that she was getting into insults and judgements. I have conditioned myself to recognize her provocations with time to spare and not to respond. I did just that, so her accusations are shocking. I know that while the accusations are not real, her feelings are. If she has constructed something in her mind, then that structure is real (to her).

Apologies for writing this out here - it has helped me calm down. I do wonder why I should live with this woman.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 07/05/22 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by PeterB
Update: I was on a weeklong solo trip, and now I am back. It was awesome.
Glad you had a good trip.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Then she started piling on insults, so I got up and left.
Originally Posted by PeterB
The truth of the first encounter was that I had told her 'Conversation is over" in a firm tone, twice, after I realized that she was getting into insults and judgements. I have conditioned myself to recognize her provocations with time to spare and not to respond.
Good job keeping your composure and not responding emotionally. Sounds like you set a boundary about her insulting you (a good one, imo) and enforced it by telling her the conversation is over and walking away. Nicely done.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Apologies for writing this out here - it has helped me calm down.
No need to apologize...that's exactly what this forum is here for.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I do wonder why I should live with this woman.
IHS is very difficult. My guess is physical separation is going bring you peace.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 07/05/22 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by PeterB
I do wonder why I should live with this woman.
Down the road you are going to wonder why you lived that way as long as you did.
Hope everyone is doing well. Last 10 days were relatively peaceful.

As far as day to day problems go: Her sleep has been poor because son keeps waking her up earlier than she desires. So she gets into a surly mood and finds a way to blame it on me (I'm not giving her a break). I had already given a solution to the logistics issue (we have a spare room where she can sleep whenever she wants) which she refused to take. I do not react, so these interactions don't escalate.

Yesterday she was in a good mood and wanted to discuss something about R at night. She suddenly showed up to my room.

- She started asking me in interview style to tell her how I have changed relative to the weeks post BD date and relative to my entire life pre-BD. and if those changes are going to be permanent. I'm not inclined to answering these because I don't want to present the answers as if to make a case that she should stay with me.

- She asked me what would I do if she decides to give this marriage a chance. I told her I will figure that out if and when it comes to that. Is that an okay answer?

- She also gave her own interpretation as to why I'm doing these changes - apparently to keep family intact for my son and encouraged me to look at the situation as if our son didn't exist ("what would you do then?"). That I'm manipulating her to stay and so on. I told her I don't need such analysis at this time as I'm happy as I am and I'm not interested in influencing her to stay.

- She also went into the usual soliloquy on why she had to leave me, sending subtle insults my way. I was also working on my computer at this time so intermittently I would press a few keys or scroll. At one point I thought the discussion ended so I started working again. Apparently it had not - I found out when she suddenly jumped out of her lying down position and shouted profanities at me, saying that I'm being dismissive, answering in short phrases and not making eye contact. It was accompanied by "we need to get divorce now", "you are wasting my time" and other caustic sentences. I told her that I do not mean disrespect but at the same time I do not have answers to all her questions and I don't want to answer others; However I'm sensitive to her concerns. To me, this sudden blowout is proof that she is far away from the mentality required for piecing. What do the veterens think about this interaction?

I believe that if she wants to come back she should do it on her own analysis. I do not want to provide her any input or make an explicit case by discussing R issues.

Any insights on the above will be really helpful. Should I talk to her and set some rules on further discussions and that I'm not averse to discussing. If yes, what would these rules be?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 07/17/22 05:27 PM
Peter,

You are doing fine. She knows reconciling is the right thing to do but she’s not feeling it. Logic and reason says reconcile and emotions say divorce. Unfortunately guess which one usually wins in these cases?
Originally Posted by PeterB
I do wonder why I should live with this woman.
Originally Posted by BL42
IHS is very difficult. My guess is physical separation is going bring you peace.

This is a new development on the boards over the past few years. We didn't always push for physical separation.

Sure it will give you peace.. but it also won't give your W a chance to see your hard earned changes.. nor will give her the experience to see the new you which is why she questions her emotions.

Detach Peter. Who cares what she thinks...You are doing the changes for you right? So don't worry about the outcome. You have no control on whether she believes your change. Only time and consistency are the best chances of that.

Validate her hesitation/frustration/anger especially if when you're actions are 180s for you and how you behaved pre-BD

Walk away from conversations where she spews venom.

Not always easy... but fairly simple.
Not sure BL was pushing for physical separation. He stated his opinion, IHS is very difficult. From my experience I totally agree.

I’m also not sure that DBing is about ensuring that she can see your changes. I was of the understanding that the changes are for you and who cares if the other person sees them or not. but if you are hoping they do, like staying IHS just so they can, it makes the changes seem disingenuous.

I must say I’m a bit over hearing all this talk of the boards aren’t what they used to be. They are what they are, the reminiscing doesn’t help anyone. If you don’t like something, or wish it to be a certain way, then be the one to try and change it rather than sit around and talk about the good ol days.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Not sure BL was pushing for physical separation. He stated his opinion, IHS is very difficult. From my experience I totally agree.

Of course it's difficult... but there ARE benefits to being in proximity IF you can stay detached.. Peter didn't ask BL his opinion. Nor did BL ask if Peter was considering leaving. We have no idea what a physical separation will bring Peter.

[quote=OnlyBent]I’m also not sure that DBing is about ensuring that she can see your changes. I was of the understanding that the changes are for you and who cares if the other person sees them or not. but if you are hoping they do, like staying IHS just so they can, it makes the changes seem disingenuous.

That's not what I said at all. I said the same exact thing. All I said was that she won't get to see his changes...which is true. Who cares you ask? People who want to save their marriages! It's not disingenuous to be consistent with your changes and want to show those changes to your spouse as a form of validation. The doing in "for you" is keeping consistent in those changes regardless of her response.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
I must say I’m a bit over hearing all this talk of the boards aren’t what they used to be. They are what they are, the reminiscing doesn’t help anyone. If you don’t like something, or wish it to be a certain way, then be the one to try and change it rather than sit around and talk about the good ol days.

Woah OB..that's not what I have said or anyone for that matter. The boards are based on Michelle's teaching... if they stray from that... we should guide it back. That's what the vets are talking about.
V, over on the Surviving, the whole “the boards are not what they used to be” has been thrown around a few times recently, referring to the fact that the people on this forum can’t seem to hear some hard truths. I actually agree with tough love and do think some on here are a bit precious when receiving honest feedback.

What I don’t think is helpful is saying the boards aren’t what they used to be, back in the good ol days, etc. I feel like it alienates newbies and others. Like I said, things are as they are, if you don’t like it, work to change them rather than talk about how great they used to be. Not particularly directed at you V. Peter, apologies, the last of the hijack.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
V, over on the Surviving, the whole “the boards are not what they used to be” has been thrown around a few times recently, referring to the fact that the people on this forum can’t seem to hear some hard truths. I actually agree with tough love and do think some on here are a bit precious when receiving honest feedback.

What I don’t think is helpful is saying the boards aren’t what they used to be, back in the good ol days, etc. I feel like it alienates newbies and others. Like I said, things are as they are, if you don’t like it, work to change them rather than talk about how great they used to be. Not particularly directed at you V. Peter, apologies, the last of the hijack.

Ah thanks for clarifying OB as it did FEEL like it was directed at me based off of what I wrote. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. smile
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 07/17/22 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Valeska19
Originally Posted by PeterB
I do wonder why I should live with this woman.
Originally Posted by BL42
IHS is very difficult. My guess is physical separation is going bring you peace.
This is a new development on the boards over the past few years. We didn't always push for physical separation.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Not sure BL was pushing for physical separation. He stated his opinion, IHS is very difficult. From my experience I totally agree.
I certainly didn't intend for my post to be an endorsement of separation. I'm all for DB'ing and saving marriages. PeterB was venting about all the difficult interactions he had during IHS and I was simply saying he'll get some relief/peace from that if separation happens (which it more than likely will).
Posted By: BL42 Re: Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (2) - 07/17/22 11:14 PM
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
- She started asking me in interview style to tell her how I have changed relative to the weeks post BD date and relative to my entire life pre-BD. and if those changes are going to be permanent. I'm not inclined to answering these because I don't want to present the answers as if to make a case that she should stay with me.
Good thought. You don't want to be interviewed about whether she should divorce you or not. You already got married. Her emotions have to lead her to staying married. It's not a logical checkbox if you answer all the questions right.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She asked me what would I do if she decides to give this marriage a chance. I told her I will figure that out if and when it comes to that. Is that an okay answer?
Sounds like a good answer to me. Seems like a bit of a test. You don't want to jump all over it and say "Yes, yes, yes!", but don't dismiss it either. Keep it mysterious, something like "I have a lot to think about".

Originally Posted by PeterB
- She also went into the usual soliloquy on why she had to leave me, sending subtle insults my way. I was also working on my computer at this time so intermittently I would press a few keys or scroll. At one point I thought the discussion ended so I started working again.
Remember validation. Don't necessarily agree with what she says, but validate her emotions are valid. Woman want you to listen, hear, and understand them. Not sure pivoting back to your computer was smart. That says you're not listening.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I found out when she suddenly jumped out of her lying down position and shouted profanities at me, saying that I'm being dismissive, answering in short phrases and not making eye contact.
Shouting profanities might be grounds for you walking away. Enforce your boundaries. That says, if you were working on your computer while she was trying to talk she may have a valid point.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Should I talk to her and set some rules on further discussions and that I'm not averse to discussing. If yes, what would these rules be?
Less talk, more action. If she initiates listen and validate. Otherwise focus on yourself: 180s, GAL...etc.
Start a new thread


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