So, I'm not exactly new here, I was on this site three years ago. I successfully dbed and pieced. We even had a third child. About 9 months ago things started to slip and we agreed to go to couples counselling. At that time I had already been in IC for years and felt I had been making good progress on what was Childhood Emotional Neglect. I started to understand my feelings more, and said to my W that what I want is missing, deeper connection and mutual respect. She always says she just wants more physical touch and affection.
Couples counselling has been great, a very switched on provocative and emotionally draining therapist. She got us to understand attachment and the avoidant (me), anxious (W) trap. It was an eye opener, it explained our sitch and my previous relationships. When I further delved into it at the attachment project (which I highly recommend), I was blown away by the accuracy of behaviours and feelings. I looked back at previous events in my life under this lense of avoidant attachment, and it explained so much. It shed light in events where I blamed SO when it was more about my distorted reality and negative emotional reactions.
So my original DB wasn't enough, more work needed by me, and it didn't fix things, but it lead me address depression and be more aware of my emotions.
Which leads me to now. Two weeks away for another intense couples therapy, I start to get disrespect, anger and gas lighting from W. When I enforced boundaries to stop, more anger, and then BD.
Along the lines of I've not had sex for too long, I'm leaving, we need to sell the house. But I reminded her that it will come after our relationship gets a better connection and more respect. W wasn't listening.
Now, I'm better at this now. No anxiety, no panicky reaction, and, of course, validation. She still has to point out that last time we separated, I was unreasonable. What happened was I simply reminded her that her expectation of separation doesn't match reality. In this case her suggestion to sell, or develop our house into a duplex was surprisingly fair. She also went to great lengths to exoress that I'm her best friend, in the friend zone.
In any event, I'm still emotionally messed up on the inside, finding it hard to keep a brave face. I'm pretty convinced she's serious this time as I accidentally saw her calendar (we share on our phones), and saw a detailed plan in her calendar of dates for moving into her parents, how she wants to not develop our house, but sell, how I'm to stay in the house with our son during weekdays, date when to ask for child support and how much, and even the date with her therapist to discuss her anxiety that ill drag things out with her therapist. I feel bad for reading all this, but I couldn't help myself.
However, despite BD, we're fairly back to normal. Still sleep in the same bed, doing family things, she makes a point to wear her wedding band out in public, but off all other times. In fact we went to a wedding yesterday, and in all respects we acted like a happy couple, other then no kissing.
Now as an anxious person, I know the minute she thinks of something, everything gets planned, then when the intensity wears off, they get dropped. But this seems different.
I know I need to focus on me, GAL and IC. And I still do. I've lost 30 pounds, and working in IC on self esteem and secure attachment.
After this ramble, should I DB? How would it work, she's not WAW quite yet. I am in the process of improving connection with not bottling things up, asking for help, calling out behaviour, more boundary setting, more compliments. No issues so far, but now I'm afraid of looking needy.
I wanted to sit down and tell her my feelings that I understand her BD but also disappointed because we are doing IC. I wanted to suggest we take things slow, but given she has anxiety about me "delaying" I'm not so sure. I've been sharing what happens in IC, but should I now that I've been demoted into the friend zone?
There is a part of me that feels she's probably doing me a favour. I've not seem real change on her behaviour, and rejection in what I said is required to be more close. I think about what separation will look like, and although I'll loose out on some time with my toddler daughter, the idea of space and eventually a new partner is compelling. But the other side of me sees more I can do to overcome avoidant attachment and maybe to the point to better manage anxious W.
I guess I have to admit, I'm probably too attached to my sitch and wish I could get the sort of deep connection with W that I desire.
Advice?
Josh,
Sorry your back here but unfortunately this is quite common for quick turnarounds. Typically those are just a stay of execution. You probably already know but having another baby while piecing was a really bad idea. I scanned through your thread and cringed when I read it. Your W’s statement that you make her “physically ill” speaks volumes. My advice to you which will probably not be popular is to GAL like a made man, get in the best shape of your life and when she drops the bomb again you agree with it. You tell her you are in full agreement with it and you wish her well and you go in the complete opposite direction. A 40 something year old with a toddler and two other young kids will not be a hot commodity on the dating market. It will take some time but eventually she will more than likely realize what she left behind. If she doesn’t you won’t care anyways because you will be living your best life.
Hi Josh,
I’m sorry you’re back here.
Reading this last post, I’d have imagined some happy reconciliation period, but when I read your post from 2 years ago you weren’t able to perform due to “bedroom issues” and she’s complaining she’s sex starved and wants an open marriage. I have a hard time imagining any male “bedroom issue” preventing giving my partner an O. Can you clarify? Most of us are adults with kids—we’ve had sex before! We’re not ashamed. It seems like after a third child you’re not sleeping with her because you don’t feel close enough. I get needing to feel safe. How long ago was the last 3 times you two had sex to an O for her? It seems lie sex is a core aspect of your sitch so I’d like to understand better.
I am going to disagree with LH about a 40 year-old man or woman having any trouble in the modern dating world—assuming they’ve worked through their baggage.
Yes, us anxious types can be fast to extrapolate a small problem into a big problem. Does this feel like she’s making a mountain out of a mole hill or the last 5yrs have been mostly bad? When was the last time you both were truly happy together and how long did it last?
What prevents you from leaving to find a more compatible partner give your rocky history?
But there are two things that worry me. The first is the sex. It was an issue before BD and now it is a bit of a different issue. Call it performance anxiety. I see it as, well, it's been like 9 months so I'm out of practice.
Also, keep in mind that sex has been problematic for me this last month. It doesn't bother me that much as it happens to everyone. I attribute it to the fact that it has been almost a year of inactivity and now we are into it almost weekly. She raises this as a concern. I reassure her and say that really, orgasm is really our own responsibility, there is a lot of change and it will pass.
Josh, I just read years of her frustration about poor quality or quantity of sex. I hear your reasons--out-of-practice, performance anxiety, not feeling close enough, etc. I don't see consistent low quality and low quantity sex as consistent with a satisfying long-term relationship. I agree with AnotherStander and Sandi core issues went unaddressed in your R, that it was only a half-hearted R.
Are you comfortable talking about sex with her? I hear you that "O is really our own responsibility." She owns that. She told you she's not satisfied. She's proposed solutions you don't like. She's doubtless getting those O's by herself in her bedroom. She's now ready to move on in part because she wants a partner she can have good sex with on a weekly basis. She's owning her O.
I'm baffled you say "This is normal" (to have poor sex after a 9mo break when you've only been intimate again for a month) and "This too shall pass" (when she complains). There are pharmaceutics, devices, and techniques that can delay or speed up our experiences. There are tools like "Sex With Emily's" checklist of "Yes, No, Maybe" to find common ground to explore sexuality. There are training website and sex therapists. Sex is big for her. Why isn't it a priority for you?
I’m sitting on my patio having a few drinks (sorry Steve) and this thread has got me really angry. This guy makes all these changes and is committed to improving and she wants a D because he has some preformed issues. To boot they bring another kid into it. Can you see how insane the concept of marriage is these days?
Traveler since I believe 55% of guys over 40 have equipment issues I would argue it’s higher for single guys. Most guys who can satisfy will not want anything to do with a toddler. That leaves the pool at about 20%. Good luck with that!
LH19,
A 40 something year old with a toddler and two other young kids will not be a hot commodity on the dating market. It will take some time but eventually she will more than likely realize what she left behind.
This is might provide some solace in the moment, but is it true? How many stories on here did the WAS/WS walk right into a LTR. My ExW has been living with OM2 for a year and a half now, living in a house my ExW bought across the street from his sister, one big happy family, and I have to smile and listen as my young daughter uses his pet name. DnJ's ExW 4-5 years. Ginger1's ExH 14. Just to name a few. My daughter was barely a toddler and Ginger's an infant at the time and it didn't stop OM2 or OW. Guess I'm using Tosh_T's thread to vent a bit, but it really does seem like the WAS/WS fall backward into what they want whereas the LBS is left in the lurch. Yeah, I know "life's not fair move on" and all but it certainly seems sometimes all the good luck goes to the WAS/WS.
this thread has got me really angry.
I share your anger. All these sitches are awful.
Can you see how insane the concept of marriage is these days?
It's hard sometimes having gone through what we did to see the point of marriage. There really is no guaranteed commitment.
I’m talking about if she divorces without monkey branching she will have a tough find finding a good dude who will sexually satisfier with commitment.
DNJ didn’t have toddlers, Ginger always had bad luck and your ex hasn’t been at it long.
It depends on your perspective luck. If it’s all about being in a relationship then I guess your W is the lucky one right now.
I agree with LH on both fronts. GAL like a mad man, move on, and never look back. It certainly can cause your ex to reconsider whether she made the right choice.
As for seeking another relationship, embrace your freedom. With time, your desire to be in another relationship will fade. It might even disappear entirely.
Agree with others posting.
You need to GAL like a mad man and smash the gym HEAVILY. Stop trying to please her, it’s a waste of time.
And when she drops the bomb, without an ounce of hesitation say “I respect your decision” and walk completely in the other direction. Don’t do it half-heartedly or in the hope she’ll crumble, do it with complete authority and arrogance.
That’s the only chance you have at this point, and even if it doesn’t work out (which 90% it won’t) at least you made a good start in the right direction with your new life.
I’ve read somewhere that the most successful approach is actually to run in the opposite direction with a coldness that defies logic.
The day she BDs you, kick her stuff out the bedroom, block her on socials, tell her she has 48 hours to leave the house, tell her that you’re having 50% custody of the kids, and that you’ll forward your lawyer’s details as soon as possible.
For a second bomb day, that’s pretty much your only option.
However, despite BD, we're fairly back to normal. Still sleep in the same bed, doing family things, she makes a point to wear her wedding band out in public, but off all other times. In fact we went to a wedding yesterday, and in all respects we acted like a happy couple, other then no kissing.
This is not good.
should I DB? How would it work, she's not WAW quite yet.
Yes. DB your butt off.
I am in the process of improving connection with not bottling things up, asking for help, calling out behaviour, more boundary setting, more compliments. No issues so far, but now I'm afraid of looking needy.
Sounds extremely needy. Stop.
I wanted to sit down and tell her my feelings that I understand her ...
STFU You can't talk your way out of this. It will be all about your behavior.
she has anxiety about me "delaying"
Help get ride of her anxiety. Agree that your sitch looks "hopeless" or whatever words she uses.
I now that I've been demoted into the friend zone?
Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2077526#Post2077526Read this thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=allAnd as many of the other quote threads:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...;Number=2910892#Post2910892&page=all
I’ve read somewhere that the most successful approach is actually to run in the opposite direction with a coldness that defies logic.
Not really a coldness, More of a happy awakening.
The day she BDs you, kick her stuff out the bedroom, block her on socials,
I would like to suggest that this is better to do the day you find out about her involvement in an affair.
You have a sexually frustrated woman. It is your job to turn her on and please her. Learn some game ASAP. You have to build up sexual tension, and then let her release it with you. Show her what she will be missing.
Hey some clarification, appreciate the dialog!
I'll adress each one by one:
The sex, IMHO, relates to anxiety and avoidance to closeness. Her expectations on me always initiating, and my sensitivity to the relationship prevent me from wanting it. Toss in some physical issues, but the blue pill completely resolved that. As we went through couples therapy, I was made aware this was a very typical reaction, and I stated to SO that this is what is happening. She considers this an unacceptable precondition, despite me stating this is reasonable.
Generally, no, I'm not comfortable talking about sex, but that has changed about a year ago as I started to open up.
The toddler is the best thing in my life. She is everything I wish I had with the first two. Thank you COVID, for allowing me to daily spend time with her. I have no regrets, and it was the second major live decision we made with agreement and without hesitation.
Being a single Dad is not a problem, and you know, after our chat today, I realise she is doing me a favour. She insists it's happening. She insists shes securely attached despite therapy two months ago showing we're a function of the anxious avoidant trap. Her emotional manipulationscin conflict ain't secure, nor are poor boundaries. I genuinely believe she cannot face her issues, and certain she hasn't explored anxious attachment at all with her IC. But not my problem. Wishful thinking.
The issue now is how to proceed. I think we can be amicable up to the point where she might attempt to have her cake and eat it too. Which happened last time. I will get an L to ensure things are fair.
Atm, she's fretting about telling her Dad, since he believes no one should divorce. Odd fear, he's accepting of anything. To me it's more about shame IMHO. I intend to ensure I'm not involved in that conversation, so there is an opportunity for a more candid conversation. And at the same time pointing out how great that necklace I bought her looks great. Which she has hardly worn until now. Same sort of mixed signals as last time. Part of me wonders if she's wanting to see how GAL works and propose a reconnect as LAT. This came up last time.
In any event, from a GAL POV, I have that sorted. Lime last time if I didn't want to go out, I'd still go out to at least make a point. And now I'm still in the same bed. That changes now. There is where SteveLW comes in with some morr awesome advice ...
since I'm not sure how to minimise contact when we share the same house. She continues to laugh, interact, "nag" as if nothing has changed.
There is where SteveLW comes in with some morr awesome advice ... smile since I'm not sure how to minimise contact when we share the same house.
It’s easy. Kick her out.
Ready2Change, noted, and thanks for the reminder. Yeah, didn't even think of what I was doing, totally forgot about it the first time. I've had my grief, freedom starts now, DB starts tonight.
Don’t be in the conversation she has with her dad. Not your business. I would make it clear that you will not be friends after D.
Hold your head high knowing you did everything you could to save your marriage. Run don’t walk in the other direction. Your W is an entitled brat who is in for a rude awakening.
Well, it's funny how in the morning W is all sympathetic, but now that I've announced that I want to move out she goes into a tirade about how you can't afford it, haven't you thought about it (no, BD was like 48 hours ago)? Then she reverted to the hostile form I remember last time of starting arguments on the simplest of things. Telling, and as expected, she talked about how the house will be split not 50/50,and then asked if I agree. Remember, this is BD +3. So I had to play dumb that I don't know, she proceeds to justify the uneven split and says anything other and I'll be resentful. Now, $ is in her values, so I shouldn't be surprised. It's funny she says stuff where I know the truth is the opposite. "I'm detached!". No, you aren't, you're arguing. "I'm so happy!" No you aren't, your snappy and moody. "your arguing!". No, I'm not. It's you, you are gaslighting/projecting.
And the more I think, she's won the lottery because she doesn't have to work, and the money will keep rolling in. Anyhow, L for sure. In the meantime, I've moved beds, brave face for the kids, and GAL. Which will be awesome because I love weights at nite, so I'll be signing up for that.
Really, the grieving was over in like 12 hours, I know what I'm in for, I just have validate like F and not get sucked into her attempts to start arguments. And TBH, I'm looking forward to it. We have one more couples session left. It's going to be interesting.
Josh you don’t have to validate anything and I would certainly cancel the couples counseling session. This marriage is over, done stick a fork in it. You deserve so much better.
Well, it's funny how in the morning W is all sympathetic, but now that I've announced that I want to move out she goes into a tirade about how you can't afford it, haven't you thought about it (no, BD was like 48 hours ago)?
Sounds like a knee jerk reaction. Why are you moving out?
Then she reverted to the hostile form I remember last time of starting arguments on the simplest of things. Telling, and as expected, she talked about how the house will be split not 50/50,and then asked if I agree. Remember, this is BD +3. So I had to play dumb that I don't know, she proceeds to justify the uneven split and says anything other and I'll be resentful.
She's trying to control you with fear. Do what is best for you and kids. Who gives a fuch if she's resentful.
Now, $ is in her values, so I shouldn't be surprised. It's funny she says stuff where I know the truth is the opposite. "I'm detached!". No, you aren't, you're arguing. "I'm so happy!" No you aren't, your snappy and moody. "your arguing!". No, I'm not. It's you, you are gaslighting/projecting.
Stop over analyzing it's a complete waste of time.
And the more I think, she's won the lottery because she doesn't have to work, and the money will keep rolling in.
Yep. Divorce are beautiful aren't they?
Anyhow, L for sure. In the meantime, I've moved beds, brave face for the kids, and GAL. Which will be awesome because I love weights at nite, so I'll be signing up for that.
Yep GAL and get in the best shape of your life.
Really, the grieving was over in like 12 hours, I know what I'm in for, I just have validate like F and not get sucked into her attempts to start arguments. And TBH, I'm looking forward to it. We have one more couples session left. It's going to be interesting.
You are going to have many ups and downs my friend over the next few years. You will be happier though because there is nothing as bad as living with someone who wants out.
Sorry you find your way back here Josh. Sometimes false starts on R are the reality. I have one in my past that lasted 12 years! And it went back to exactly what you stated, not putting in the real work before Ring the first time.
However, I see in your new post that you are already finding excuses not get back to DB 101. GAL like a madman! Self improvements, you are already doing this but double-down on working on becoming your best self! Keep up the IC for yourself! And then finally, you admit to over attachment. So work on emotionally detaching. I read as much as I could on detachment in my situation. One book I read referred to it as self-differentiation. Google "self-differentiation in marriage". Being differentiated is really the healthiest way to be in a relationship, never losing your identity. So make that one of your journeys, go back (as part of GAL) and get back into touch with who you were before you were married with kids. THis doesn't mean go out and meet chicks! It means there was a Josh that attracted your wife originally, remember him? Reconnecting with your old self will help you with detachment!
While I like the anxious, avoidant stuff from a knowledge standpoint, one of the thing that labelling people those things is people will point to them to excuse their actions. "I have an avoidant personality, so that is just who I am!" Huh? Once you are armed with that information you can use it to CHANGE your normal, not remain stuck in it. So while I applaud your journey to learn about you and your wife's attachment style, do not let it define you!
Josh, I would avoid some of the things you proposed. "I am in the process of improving connection with not bottling things up, asking for help, calling out behaviour, more boundary setting, more compliments. No issues so far, but now I'm afraid of looking needy.
I wanted to sit down and tell her my feelings that I understand her BD but also disappointed because we are doing IC."
Words are not going to help you. Trying to reconnect with her will be met with continued resistance. Complimenting her is just like saying "I love you". It reminds her that she doesn't feel it right now. Obviously reminding her that she doesn't feel that way for you isn't what you want to do.
I sense you are in "I want to fix it" mode. The problem is that you cannot fix. In fact, trying to fix it will only make it worse. Think of a layman that has car trouble, trying to tear their engine apart. They do not have the knowledge, and therefore power, to fix their car. Right now you do not have the power to fix your marriage, so trying to do so will only make it worse. So back off of that, give her time and space so she can figure out her own stuff, and you go focus on yourself.
Read sandi's rules. Sandi's rules, I believe, were at least a part of my sitch turning around 4 years ago. They are gold!
Really, the grieving was over in like 12 hours, I know what I'm in for, I just have validate like F and not get sucked into her attempts to start arguments. And TBH, I'm looking forward to it.
This is great. After your last post my first thought was "why are you discussing all of this?" Discussing all of that in your last post has no way of ending well for you. As you have discovered. So yes avoid getting sucked into those "discussions". Remember, "I don't know" is a valid response to questions. Do not feel you have to have answers to her questions! Also valid: "I will need some time to think about that before I can give you an answer."
But always be the one to end the discussion. "I can't sit here and talk about this, I have things to do." Then go be busy!
Hey, yeah, I'm not moving out yet, because of money. And reconnecting is a knee jerk reaction. I'm not doing it. It was the first time we had a serious convo post BD, so we both were emotional.
All your points are awesome, and yeah, my first GAL night out, BD +3, I felt free. Unlike the first time, where I struggled, this time I see the potential if where I want my life to be. I truely lost that original spark when I was dating. In fact I think I might have even told W during BD that we never connected in the first place. Out of necessity, we are communicating far better organising a parenting plan. As I told a friend, she did me a service for doing what I should have done myself.
I've read Sandi's rules so many times, and even between DB, I'd review them when things were low. I love those tips.
And yeah, I'm cancelling the couples therapy. The only way we need any professional support would be mediation. And that's probably not required.
Thanks for the support, and the usual kick in the ass reminders on what to do. Much appreciated.
I'm looking forward to returning to the gym.
Talk to your attorney before moving out - sometimes they advise against it, or advise against getting too cheap/small an apartment because of the precedent it sets.
... I've announced that I want to move out...In the meantime, I've moved beds......
What made you decided that you want to move out? When did you decide that? What date? Is this what your lawyer recommended?
Are you trying to bust this divorce, or do you want to get divorced?
Josh, I forgot to address the sleeping elsewhere, and moving out.
Since she is the one that wants a D, she should be the one to sleep elsewhere, and/or to move out. The general guidance is that if the WAS is not having a PA, then stay in the MBR and sleep in the marital bed. If she chooses to as well, fine, but she is free to sleep elsewhere. Same with moving out, if she chooses to, fine, but it is okay for her to stay too (and legally you can't kick her out).
If the WAS is in a PA, the rules change slightly. You need to move a cheating WAS out of the MBR and make it clear that they are not welcome in the MBR unless and until they are no longer in the PA, and agree to transparency (knowing where they are at all times, phones and accounts unlocked to you, etc) to prove it is over.
So I have the same questions as R2C. Why are you sleeping elsewhere? Why are you considering moving out? This is her D, not yours.
Are you trying to bust this divorce, or do you want to get divorced?
I got that sense from Josh's last posts, too.
Well, it's funny how in the morning W is all sympathetic, but now that I've announced that I want to move out she goes into a tirade about how you can't afford it, haven't you thought about it (no, BD was like 48 hours ago)?
She's not wrong that it was an illogical, emotional decision. I wonder if this is your avoidant side--sprinting away makes you feel in control. As others have cautioned, seek an attorney before making weighty decisions, and like most "Talky" actions I doubt this helped you.
Then she reverted to the hostile form I remember last time of starting arguments
An argument takes two. It's up to you whether her words "start" an argument.
she talked about how the house will be split not 50/50,and then asked if I agree. Remember, this is BD +3. So I had to play dumb that I don't know,
Dumb doesn't gain respect or attraction. Why are you acting dumb--and blaming her for that choice?
It's funny she says stuff where I know the truth is the opposite. "I'm so happy!" No you aren't, your snappy and moody.
I agree she sounds like she has mixed feelings about divorcing you. It sounds like you may also have mixed feelings about her divorcing you. Do you want to stand, aren't sure, or what to be single?
My home office is in a different room, it made more sense to move there. I don't have space in the master bedroom to move my office there. I might be able to move things around so that it's possible. It's only the first night, I could go back and say she needs to take that room, I'm going to move my office in the master bedroom since she is the one to initiated separation.
It makes sense that she should deal with the consequences. That is my problem, I capitulate too much and offer to concede.
It does sound like I want the divorce. I admit there is a part of me that does, but really I'm trying to feel positive in all this. I want to be together but only if she changes. The thing is I've seen very little over the years. There is another part of me that thinks I am free, I will have space from her, and I can do my own thing. But I guess I always had that power in the first place to do my own thing.
I do wonder too if she has mixed emotions since she is wondering when to tell the kids and when to tell her parents.
I do wonder too if she has mixed emotions since she is wondering when to tell the kids and when to tell her parents.
Let's just say she does. What does that change?
Remember, focus off of her and onto yourself. Josh, you are actually in pretty good shape here. Just a few adjustments and you are on the right track!
I do wonder too if she has mixed emotions since she is wondering when to tell the kids and when to tell her parents.
Let's just say she does. What does that change?
Remember, focus off of her and onto yourself. Josh, you are actually in pretty good shape here. Just a few adjustments and you are on the right track!
Yeah, changes nothing. You are right. Focus on me, not her. She's just a roommate now.
Should I push the issue of staying in the marital bed? It would be interesting because the kids will see what is going on.
Josh_T.
That is my problem, I capitulate too much and offer to concede.
This is common around here. Time to grow a backbone. Don't be a jerk, but stand up for yourself.
I do wonder too if she has mixed emotions since she is wondering when to tell the kids and when to tell her parents.
She probably does even if they don't show - but do not count on that changing her direction.
Josh_T,
Should I push the issue of staying in the marital bed? It would be interesting because the kids will see what is going on.
Which bed you sleep in isn't as much the issue as the principle behind it. If you'd prefer the bed to which you're accustomed than sleep there or if you'd be more comfortable in another room due to your work arrangements than so be it, but make the decision based on what is best for you and not in a manner to be nice and soft and weak to her in fear she might then divorce you over it. Stand up and be strong and take control of your life; do not kowtow to someone who wants to divorce you.
Which bed you sleep in isn't as much the issue as the principle behind it. If you'd prefer the bed to which you're accustomed than sleep there or if you'd be more comfortable in another room due to your work arrangements than so be it, but make the decision based on what is best for you and not in a manner to be nice and soft and weak to her in fear she might then divorce you over it. Stand up and be strong and take control of your life; do not kowtow to someone who wants to divorce you.
I didn't want to be in the MB anyway, since my office has an outside door that I can silently slip in and out of. I prefer that.
Yeah, this is what I like about these forums, they provide good advice coupled with a morale boost.
Are you trying to bust this divorce, or do you want to get divorced?
Whichever choice you make, that doesn't really affect how you should behave. It may effect what advice we give you.
Each of us have "deal breakers", and even those appear to move around at different points in our lives for each of us. Most put PA as a deal breaker until it happens. Some then decide to DB for a period of time.
Did you do everything possible to keep your family together? Most don't. It is crazy hard from my observations here.
Sounds like you get emotional when interacting with W. Stop. Control your emotions. Use your logic and decided not to argue with her anymore. All your words should be calm and confident, and even mysterious. End conversations first and go "take care of things".
Take time to make some decisions.
Silently slipping in and out sounds creepy. Don't be creepy.
I do wonder too if she has mixed emotions since she is wondering when to tell the kids and when to tell her parents.
Let's just say she does. What does that change?
Remember, focus off of her and onto yourself. Josh, you are actually in pretty good shape here. Just a few adjustments and you are on the right track!
Yeah, changes nothing. You are right. Focus on me, not her. She's just a roommate now.
Should I push the issue of staying in the marital bed? It would be interesting because the kids will see what is going on.
I would. When she protests just tell her that you're not the one that wants the divorce, you shouldn't be the one to sleep elsewhere.
Then move your office into the MBR if that makes things easier. At this point it is about commanding respect and that is more important than keeping the peace.
Well, she's really got me today. Pushing for a fight, asking me at 8pm to go over divorce numbers. Then gets all huffy when I say not now. I realise she probably wanted to talk about it earlier when she said let's go for a walk. Anyhow, I actually started to raise my voice when I said I'm going to bed. She had no qualms to argue back in front of the kids. They know something is up.
It's like a power thing. Arguing over anything to cause a disagreement.
What's interesting is I said you write me the numbers, not talk about it and then I write it down. You see, this is the lazy aspect of W. Doesn't want to do the heavy lifting. I wanted the numbers on paper, make her do the work. I'm thinking I should stall and just not come up with a time to talk. Or say in two weeks when work eases up. Or tell her to talk to my L. I'm not sure I can be calm and steady. I think I could say I'm happy to talk when you are calmer.
So there are lots of different ways to handle this based on what you want right now. If it were me and had the knowledge I have now that you don’t yet I would want her fuching out of there as soon as possible and do everything I could to speed up the process. There is also some value to standing up to her and saying “ I will only speak to you when your calm” and walk away every time she raises her voice. You are going to have to deal with her for at minimum the next 15 years so you mine as well set the precedent now. Lastly if you go the speak to my lawyer route it may get rather expensive. Best to come to an agreement before hand. Unless you have tons of assets it should b3 relatively easy.
Well, she's really got me today. Pushing for a fight, asking me at 8pm to go over divorce numbers. Then gets all huffy when I say not now. I realise she probably wanted to talk about it earlier when she said let's go for a walk. Anyhow, I actually started to raise my voice when I said I'm going to bed. She had no qualms to argue back in front of the kids. They know something is up.
It's like a power thing. Arguing over anything to cause a disagreement.
What's interesting is I said you write me the numbers, not talk about it and then I write it down. You see, this is the lazy aspect of W. Doesn't want to do the heavy lifting. I wanted the numbers on paper, make her do the work. I'm thinking I should stall and just not come up with a time to talk. Or say in two weeks when work eases up. Or tell her to talk to my L. I'm not sure I can be calm and steady. I think I could say I'm happy to talk when you are calmer.
Josh, remember, she doesn't have to like you, but she needs to respect you. So stick to your guns on not discussing it before you are ready. She may huff, she may puff, but she will respect you.
I like the having her write it down approach. Especially if emotions continue to be high. It is the best way to take the emotion out of it. But her laziness isn't just a your W thing, that is typical, WAS behavior. They want to do a lot of talking. So when you play the bad guy and file you know what she wants! Just stick to the request for things in writing when she brings it up.
Well, she's really got me today. Pushing for a fight, Anyhow, I actually started to raise my voice when I said I'm going to bed. She had no qualms to argue back in front of the kids.
It's like a power thing. Arguing over anything to cause a disagreement.
When I was in the thick of things, I’d think on how unfair it was I was trying to learn to respond to opposing views with active listening and validation at the time when triggers were highest.
When you say, “Send me your proposal and I’ll consider it,” and she’s angry and wants to discuss it with you then and there—it’s hard for me to remember that headspace where I’d defensively argue my reasons instead of re-asserting my boundary (“No, I’m tired.”) and (if not too sleepy) being curious about her anger and urgency around discussing it that night. Validation isn’t agreeing nor being a parrot. It transformed that relationship and also improved mine with my D17.
Good communication will benefit you whether or not you decide to stand for your marriage, plus you are modeling behaviors that your kids will pick up on.
Traveler makes a great point on validation. Validation is not agreeing or disagreeing, it is recognizing how she feels! I feel the anti-validating sentiment sometimes misses this point. You are not validating that she is leaving/cheating/lying/breaking vows/being disrespectful. You are validating her feelings. But the reason validation is so effective is because the alternative, if you must respond, is to get defensive and argue. Between the two choices, validation is best.
If and when she starts behaving poorly and disrespectfully simply state that you refuse to be spoken to that way, then walk away.
Do not - do NOT - agree to anything financial right now without your lawyer's input.
Tell her this should go through your lawyers.
I agree with asking her to put in writing whatever it is she is thinking. But don't respond to it - just say you will discuss it with your lawyer.
You need a good idea from your lawyer about what is likely in a divorce settlement in your case. But definitely do not negotiate or agree to anything with her without your lawyer's input.
With 3 kids, there will be child support, custody issues, and if you're in a community property state, splitting of assets accumulated during the marriage. If there is a big disparity in your incomes there might also be alimony for 1/2 the length of the marriage. It will be complicated and you definitely want your lawyer's input.
She of course, like most WASs, will have an unrealistic idea of what she will get in a divorce. You could try to explain the facts of life to her but she will not welcome it from you; nor will you want her to stay only because she feels financially "trapped".
Also - do you suspect her forcing the issue of discussing divorce is a reaction to you starting to act like you're accepting that will happen? Like she's trying to push you into begging her to stay? (Don't! But it's okay to reiterate that divorce is not what you want, but you won't stand in her way.)
I haven't read all of your thread, I see she had a previous bomb drop in 2018. Which leads me to ask - how confident are you that she was faithful in between 2018 and today's AP? Are you positive your 1 year old is your biological daughter?
I feel the anti-validating sentiment sometimes misses this point.
Nope. Us anti-validating WAS BS understand the point.
You are not validating that she is leaving/cheating/lying/breaking vows/being disrespectful. You are validating her feelings.
So what are you exactly validating?
But the reason validation is so effective is because the alternative, if between the two choices, validation is best.
Or just not responding. Because validating typically comes off as condescending anyway.
If and when she starts behaving poorly and disrespectfully simply state that you refuse to be spoken to that way, then walk away.
This I agree with.
You are not validating that she is leaving/cheating/lying/breaking vows/being disrespectful. You are validating her feelings.
So what are you exactly validating?
Well, she's really got me today. Pushing for a fight, asking me at 8pm to go over divorce numbers. I actually started to raise my voice when I said I'm going to bed. She had no qualms to argue back in front of the kids.
The below take into account Josh's ambivalence about remaining married.
OPTION #1 - Active Listening & Validation
Her: "I'd like to go over the divorce details."
Me: "If you e-mail your numbers, I'll reply within 3 days." <Boundary>
Her: (With an edge) "I want to do this now."
Me: "'Now' sounds important"
Her: "Yes! You threatened to leave. WHAT ABOUT OUR KIDS?! We need an agreement about custody, rent, food, etc."
Me: "You're upset because you worried I might leave without addressing those."
Her: "Yes, whatever's happening between us, we're BOTH parents."
Me: "I hear you. I agree our kids must be provided for. Well, I don't plan to leave anymore."
Her: "What if you change your mind--AGAIN?!"
Me: "Because one day I'm upset and going, the next day I'm staying."
Her: "Yes!!! Exactly."
Me: "That makes sense. I'm so tired now. If you e-mail me tonight, I promise I will reply within a few days on all these important topics, and that I won't move anywhere else before I do."
OPTION #2 - Walking Away
Her: "I'd like to go over the divorce details."
Me: "If you e-mail your numbers, I'll reply within 3 days." <Boundary>
Her: (With an edge) "I want to do this now."
Me: "I'm so tired now. Goodnight."
Her: Curmudgeon!!! MONKEY'S UNCLE--
Me: <shuts door>
That's a quick attempt! Active listening and validation tend to defuse hostility. Walking away minimizes creating new hostility. Both are vastly better IMHO than arguing or fighting if you want to salvage your marriage or have a good co-parenting relationship.
Because validating typically comes off as condescendingg anyway.
It can come across as condescending the first few times. Practice on everyone around you--these techniques aren't just for troubled relationships. They also strengthen good relationships!
OPTION #2 - Walking Away
Her: "I'd like to go over the divorce details."
Me: "If you e-mail your numbers, I'll reply within 3 days." <Boundary>
Her: (With an edge) "I want to do this now."
Me: "I'm so tired now. Goodnight."
Her: Curmudgeon!!! MONKEY'S UNCLE--
Me: <shuts door>
Even better.
Her: "I'd like to go over the divorce details."
Me: "If you e-mail your numbers
Her: (With an edge) "I want to do this now."
Me: Goodnight."
Her: Curmudgeon!!! MONKEY'S UNCLE--
Me: <shuts door>[/quote]
Both are vastly better IMHO than arguing or fighting if you want to salvage your marriage or have a good co-parenting relationship.
There is absolutely nothing to argue about.
Because validating typically comes off as condescendingg anyway.
It can come across as condescending the first few times. Practice on everyone around you--these techniques aren't just for troubled relationships. They also strengthen good relationships![/quote]
Yes! Practice on friends co-workers, kids just not on a WAW.
How about Option #3?
Her: "I'd like to go over the divorce details."
Me: "Sorry. I'm not ready yet."
---Discussions Ends---
Don't negotiate anything when you're emotional. Don't get into discussions when you're emotional. Nothing good will come of it. That's the way I approached things. It worked out well for me (albeit from a rebuilding my life perspective, rather than a marriage saving perspective).
As for validation, I have no doubt it is powerful and effective. It just seems like a whole lot to pull off in the thick of things. Or maybe I just wasn't any good at it.
Thanks. A good reminder. I lost that skill. I feel more balanced today, so I'm prepared. First challenge will be she wants to announce to her parents. I'm going to decline that I'm busy and say "I have confidence that you can manage without me".
How would you all recommend I handle the request to get involved with a real estate agent, but not sound like a d*ck. I expect she'll ask me to be actively imvolved.
Do you want to sell the house? If no, I'd say "No". Saying "No" to doing something when you don't want something is not a d*ck move. If she gets upset, this is the perfect opportunity to validate!
J,
Can I ask first why you don’t want to get involved with the realtor?
Me and XW had separate realtors for valuation since I kept the house.
J,
Can I ask first why you don’t want to get involved with the realtor?
The reason I ask is because you are about to get advice telling you that WWs are notoriously lazy and you let her do the heavy lifting blah blah blah. So that leads to a long drawn out D where you guys live together and she just resents you more because she feels like a caged animal trapped with a man she can’t stand right now. What I suggest is counterintuitive that you embrace the D and act fake it til you make it that you can’t wait to D and move on with your life. That may give her second thoughts.
My WW is lazy. Her attempt at determining child support is making up figures on a napkin. I asked her for details, and she emails me a pdf photo if it. I have already crunched the numbers, so I know where I stand.
I don't want to sell the house. I'm going to try to appeal to her greed, because we always talked about knocking down our house to build a duplex which would increase the value substantially. But the problem is that it will take about three years. Post BD this is compelling because it means having family close, but if it gets too weird, I just sell and move on.
The problem is that I certainly don't want a caged animal. She's already getting down with it with boundaries today. In fact she is proclaiming she set some today (which she she broke since they don't apply to her).
Part of me does accept this. Part of me is pissed off she BD 3 months in couples therapy when things seemed to improve. Part of me is nervous as to how this will pan out. And part of me is foaming at the idea I'll get a few days a week with no children, a new apartment, shitloads of cash, and the ability for Dad to have fun nights out.
Where I think I should be headed is supportive, validate, but with boundaries. For sure I'm not going with her to her parents to tell the news. I'm going to have plans. And the reason I want to do this is that she will feel much more awkward when I'm not there. I know she feels anxious at the idea her dad will be disappointed. If I'm there it validates, and puts me into an awkward choice to align or to speak up. if I'm not there, her Dad will probably be more probing.
I've already stalled the conversation on numbers, and I'm definately was not grumpy today. In fact, this is hilarious. She caught herself about to disrespect me and then backed off. I didn't react. I can't remember the last time that happened. Not only that, she always watches TV in the evening, except this time I beat her to it. Never interrupted me until about two hours had passed.
The thing is, I know deep down I'll be able to be a better father without her around. And she is even anticipating some of the children will hate her. And I can already imagine the future where XW still trys to control during handover.
Clearly even some vets still struggle with the concept of validation.
Josh, the good news is that you get to decide! Read up on validation, there is an entire thread dedicated to it. When I came to the board the vets here at that time really encouraged me to validate her feelings, not to accept disrespect. And it is a key factor in turning my situation around. There are no guarantees, but I can say in my time here I can honestly say that some of the best DBers used validation to deflect, to deescalate, and to avoid R talks. The only other alternative is to just ignore her completely, and that is a passive-aggressive technique that usually backfires.
As far as the realtor question, I'd be careful assuming anything about your WAW. They can be extremely flaky. When you expect them to zig, they zag. Do you WANT to be involved?
Steve, first DB you saved me. I remember asking for advise and the incredulous look on her face when I followed yet another of your suggestions. I always looked forward to your pov. What I like is you always have ideas that enforce in a very provocative way, I get satisfaction, yet WW knows she's in the wrong. My W is extremely anxious, and in retrospect, needed more validation by me given her insecurity.
No, I don't want to be involved in selling the house. But it's going off market, which means it doesn't take much effort (surprise). Without a campaign, it's hard to say how long it will take to get a serious offer.
Uuuummm I understand validation I just don't think a 3 time bomb dropper is worth it. It's not wrong to do but it will likely either come off as condescending or make you look weak. This is a very immature woman who has lost the tingles for you so now she is going to blow up the entire family to satisfy her needs. Trust me you can not get away fast enough.
Steve, first DB you saved me. I remember asking for advise and the incredulous look on her face when I followed yet another of your suggestions. I always looked forward to your pov. What I like is you always have ideas that enforce in a very provocative way, I get satisfaction, yet WW knows she's in the wrong. My W is extremely anxious, and in retrospect, needed more validation by me given her insecurity.
No, I don't want to be involved in selling the house. But it's going off market, which means it doesn't take much effort (surprise). Without a campaign, it's hard to say how long it will take to get a serious offer.
Josh, that is awesome. Like you are now, I was a two time BD victim in my MR. My perspective in after BD #2 was much better than BD #1. Though at times I still spun and did non-DB things. No one is perfect at this, and very very few are really good at it!
The point with my question was that you should no longer be concerned about what she expects. You need to do what you want and feel is right, regardless of her! So if you want to be involved be involved. If you want to keep the house yourself, keep it. If you want it to be sold but prefer she handle it all, let her. You've said your W is lazy. Let's see how far she will go with this stuff by herself! Likely she wants you involved to do the heavy lifting. She has to learn that she has fired you as her H and therefore you doing the heavy lifting for her is OVER.
I don't blame you at all if you want to sell the house. I told you above what my W's plan was. For me to keep the house and for her to get to play house when not out galivanting with OM. I finally told her that we would be selling the house and splitting the equity 50/50. When she started to protest I simply told her: "It isn't fair for you to go off and start a new life and expect me not to do the same."
I said it because it was true, not to try to get a reaction from her, but the reaction from her was very interesting. She looked like I had just popped at least part of her post-D fantasy bubble. But regardless, it let her know that I was not sticking around as Plan B in case she hated her new life.
So you do what you want! And do not do what you don't. This is her deal, let her figure it all out!
Where I think I should be headed is supportive, validate, but with boundaries.
Can you explain what you mean about supportive?
The thing is, I know deep down I'll be able to be a better father without her around.
100% without a doubt
And she is even anticipating some of the children will hate her.
This is how nuts she is that she thinks her kids will hate her yet she doesn't care.
And I can already imagine the future where XW still trys to control during handover.
Nope. Your house your rules. Make that a boundary and validate the $hit out of it.
Her attempt at determining child support is making up figures on a napkin. I asked her for details, and she emails me a pdf photo if it. I have already crunched the numbers, so I know where I stand.
Good. Knowledge = power. Don't make any agreement which isn't either fair or favoring you under the law.
I don't want to sell the house. I'm going to try to appeal to her greed, because we always talked about knocking down our house to build a duplex which would increase the value substantially. But the problem is that it will take about three years. Post BD this is compelling because it means having family close, but if it gets too weird, I just sell and move on.
I'm confused. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you considering converting your house into a duplex so your STBXW can live on the other side. If so, is that a hope to keep her close so she can see your DB'ing and want to come back? DO NOT do that. That will not help your detachment. What happens if/when she brings another guy back and you see him leave in the AM (or hear him through the walls). If I misunderstood your intentions, my mistake...disregard.
And part of me is foaming at the idea I'll get a few days a week with no children, a new apartment, shitloads of cash, and the ability for Dad to have fun nights out.
You're looking forward to not seeing your kids? That's certainly opposite of the norm here.
For sure I'm not going with her to her parents to tell the news. I'm going to have plans. And the reason I want to do this is that she will feel much more awkward when I'm not there. I know she feels anxious at the idea her dad will be disappointed. If I'm there it validates, and puts me into an awkward choice to align or to speak up. if I'm not there, her Dad will probably be more probing.
Good you're not going an will have plans, but not good on the reasoning...it should be about you detaching and living your life, not you trying to make her feel awkward.
This is a very immature woman who has lost the tingles for you so now she is going to blow up the entire family to satisfy her needs.
Aren't they all?
The thing is, I know deep down I'll be able to be a better father without her around.
100% without a doubt
And she is even anticipating some of the children will hate her.
This is how nuts she is that she thinks her kids will hate her yet she doesn't care.
And I can already imagine the future where XW still trys to control during handover.
Nope. Your house your rules. Make that a boundary and validate the $hit out of it.
^I completely agree with all of this
I don't want to sell the house.
No, I don't want to be involved in selling the house. But it's going off market, which means it doesn't take much effort (surprise). Without a campaign, it's hard to say how long it will take to get a serious offer.
Hu?
This is a very immature woman who has lost the tingles for you so now she is going to blow up the entire family to satisfy her needs.
Ginger and I argue about this all the time offline and she believes that most WWs here have a valid reason to blow up their families. G is a pretty smart chick so I think women have different perspectives for sure.
you embrace the D and act fake it til you make it that you can’t wait to D and move on with your life. That may give her second thoughts.
This is how you behave. It is counter-intuitive.
Do not - do NOT - agree to anything financial right now ...I agree with asking her to put in writing whatever it is she is thinking. But don't respond to it
With 3 kids, there will be child support, custody issues, and if you're in a community property state, splitting of assets accumulated during the marriage. If there is a big disparity in your incomes there might also be alimony for 1/2 the length of the marriage. It will be complicated and you definitely want your lawyer's input.
The moment I realized I could no longer trust my then wife, I set a boundary (Before I even heard the term) that our primary communication would be through email. One of the best things I did.
Draft up an email:
"W, I believe it is best that we limit our communication about our divorce to email. That will give each of us time to draw up our thoughts and...bla bla bla"
Then you reduce it down:
"W, I believe it is best that we communicate by email to help move through this process as smoothly as possible."
You can post it here for feedback if you would like, then wait until the next day, read it again and edit if needed and send it.
1) Joint custody of the kids. 50/50 equal and frequent contact with both parents.
2) Child support. There are formulas. Look yours up for your state.
3) Splitting Property- I did this room by room. I started in MY OFFICE. I asked her if there was anything in there she wanted. Big ticket items got a value. Cars and house and IRA's ect. There is a balance sheet. Not all money is the same....consult a financial expert. Tax issues as well.
Keep all three of those as separate issues. Get #1 in place first.
Every time I sent an email, I would text W "Sent you an email". She would do the same.
I had a highly contested custody battle with my X and had 50/50 custody for the 14 years.
Until you have some type of 50/50 parenting agreement, Immerse yourself into your kids bubble, stay out of W's bubble. She can come and go into your bubble while you are with the kids.
Always a work in progress.
Ready2Change's framework is a good one for divorce logistics.
"Keep all three of those as separate issues." - One caveat, #1 and #2 inter-relate if you or your ex may agree to less than 50% custody. I had primary custody for 10 of 12 years divorced and I've helped other single parents negotiate more than 50% custody. It's shocking to me how many parents will justify giving up multiple days of custody so long as their support payments don't go up and they have a good story to tell families and friends about why they're doing so.
you or your ex may agree to less than 50% custody.
If you get significantly less than 50% and want to work toward 50% then look into "First Right of Refusal". You would be the first one she has to ask to be the "baby sitter" before asking someone else.
There will be no issues with custody. FWIW, I don't live in the US, by default it's joint custody, and any attempt to change that requires justification and approval from the Family Court. I don't see that a problem. I DO see me being the first one to ask for a "baby sitter". Again, she hasn't thought this through because she plans to move 20 KMs away from her parents, her babysitter options are going to be restricted.
I have now kept the comments on email, and she's already showing anxiety about it through attempting to talk about it. I said I'd get back in a couple of days, and I will. I won't have much to say though LOL, other than clarification and more information.
you embrace the D and act fake it til you make it that you can’t wait to D and move on with your life. That may give her second thoughts.
This is how you behave. It is counter-intuitive.
Yup, and I'm getting my head around it. I still have sleeping problems, but I'm purposely putting on a brave face, smiling, playing with kids, and acting like life is good. Throw in some last minute GAL, and it's OK.
This is a very immature woman who has lost the tingles for you so now she is going to blow up the entire family to satisfy her needs.
Ginger and I argue about this all the time offline and she believes that most WWs here have a valid reason to blow up their families. G is a pretty smart chick so I think women have different perspectives for sure.
Um, I know why. She has been complaining about a lack of sex, and I've said it won't happen until there is respect and a connection. She said that is a pre-condition. And, well, yes it is, what's the problem? We were going to hit the subject head on in couples counselling, and even discuss past fears in relationships. It was going to be a very confronting. I genuinely think her ego does not allow her to face her shortcomings. Maybe it was a co-incidence, I don't know. But thinking over the years of the games, blame, re-framing, gaslighting when there is a conversation about her attitude, the timing does make me wonder.
This is a very immature woman who has lost the tingles for you so now she is going to blow up the entire family to satisfy her needs.
Ginger and I argue about this all the time offline and she believes that most WWs here have a valid reason to blow up their families. G is a pretty smart chick so I think women have different perspectives for sure.
I don't want to sell the house.
No, I don't want to be involved in selling the house. But it's going off market, which means it doesn't take much effort (surprise). Without a campaign, it's hard to say how long it will take to get a serious offer.
Hu?
In my country, it mean there will be no sign, no listing, no advertising campaign. Real estate agents have off the book buyers and sellers. This is a market for both non-serious sellers, discrete buyers, or in our case discrete sellers. Again, I think W can't face the public acknowledgement of what she wants, hence an off-market sale.
Um, I know why. She has been complaining about a lack of sex, and I've said it won't happen until there is respect and a connection. She said that is a pre-condition. And, well, yes it is, what's the problem? We were going to hit the subject head on in couples counselling, and even discuss past fears in relationships. It was going to be a very confronting. I genuinely think her ego does not allow her to face her shortcomings.
She's been complaining about the low quality and quantity of sex for years and going to counseling with you for--9 months? These preconditions--(a) rebuilding connection, (b) rebuilding respect, (c) and a "very confronting" session about her "shortcomings"--for you are a sword for the marriage to die on because they're reasonable, and for her because her willingness to wait for it is exhausted.
I have to say you may be the first with a WAW who is leaving due to not enough sex. Typically that’s easy to remedy.
I have to say you may be the first with a WAW who is leaving due to not enough sex. Typically that’s easy to remedy.
We haven't been having regular sex for years for various reasons. It's always been more than a couple of times a year, but never in the weekly category. Partly because I'm not interested for emotional reasons, partly because she insists 100% of the time I must initiate which I don't do very often, partly due to sexual disfunction which was since solved, and partly because I'm tired of her criticising me after every sexual encounter that something was wrong, or not good enough. But that's only part of it. We only learned this recently, but we have a classic pursuer/distancer relationship. My contribution to this is the distancer. We have a habit of a negative destructive behaviors that always seem to manifest. At the end of the day, I don't think we ever had a deep connection since we both can agree the issues started from the day we moved in together. She started getting assertive about how everything has to be her way, challenging it was constant effort and arguments. I didn't have the strength to enforce boundaries. I eventually stopped arguing and withdrew as the Nice Guy. That's the 10K ft view.
My work over the last 9 months was to remedy this, since the first BD was about depression. And this work has lead me to realise how much I've desired a strong connection, but never really had it, possibly ever in my life. And that this connection is required for wanting sex, I'm not someone to can just do it, I've never had a one night stand.
I'm open to piecing, but I'm not 100% sure she change to what is needed for that. We tried that, ad she bailed. And likewise, I'm not certain I can be what she expects.
In any event, I'm about to prepare a response to all her emails about $. I've also organised a meeting with L. What is clear is that she is hinting at me supporting her and the kids. What she fails to realise is that, and the courts in my country are clear, the H isn't here to support her lifestyle, but to support the kids. What you call alimony won't exist because she will be cash rich from the sale of our family home.
I need to respond in a validating way that what she needs is indeed a lot, and that she'll need to dip into her savings. I don't have any intention of being a d*ick when it comes to kids, I'm find with funding more than my share. But my point is that she is trying to eat her cake, and she needs to understand that it won't work.
I've also organised a meeting with L.
I need to respond in a validating way that what she needs is indeed a lot, and that she'll need to dip into her savings. I don't have any intention of being a d*ick when it comes to kids, I'm find with funding more than my share. But my point is that she is trying to eat her cake, and she needs to understand that it won't work
Josh, I'd sit on that e-mail for a day or two if you can! 1. Negotiations and finances are best left for when you're feeling calm and have consulted an attorney, 2. It sounds important to you to inform what she "needs" to do and that she can't, "Have her cake and eat it too." Why? Her attorney will advise her of all her rights and best moves soon. Are you trying to scare her back or to settle?
I've also organised a meeting with L.
I need to respond in a validating way that what she needs is indeed a lot, and that she'll need to dip into her savings. I don't have any intention of being a d*ick when it comes to kids, I'm find with funding more than my share. But my point is that she is trying to eat her cake, and she needs to understand that it won't work
Josh, I'd sit on that e-mail for a day or two if you can! 1. Negotiations and finances are best left for when you're feeling calm and have consulted an attorney, 2. It sounds important to you to inform what she "needs" to do and that she can't, "Have her cake and eat it too." Why? Her attorney will advise her of all her rights and best moves soon. Are you trying to scare her back or to settle?
I'm not sure if it's a negotiation as of yet. It doesn't feel like it. It seems more like testing the waters because if it is, she is approaching it half heartedly. I promised to reply to an email in a couple of days. I will, but I guess without a promise to any financials. I was thinking of acknowledging that "Oh ya, there isn't enough money to live on each month, but I'm sure there will be plenty of savings after settlement to keep you going until you are ready for a job."
She for sure as no L. I only am approaching one to know where I stand. Just for advice. Nothing else yet.
When you say scare her back, you are right. If you read way back on my sitch in DB v1, I made the pointed question to her on how she planned to support herself if she moved out. She just assumed, as now, I'd fund it all. What I'm saying is that she needs to understand the reality, and not her distorted view that I'm there to fund her lifestyle.
Josh_T,
FWIW, I don't live in the US, by default it's joint custody, and any attempt to change that requires justification and approval from the Family Court.
In my country, it mean there will be no sign, no listing, no advertising campaign.
Do you feel comfortable sharing where you are from?
I DO see me being the first one to ask for a "baby sitter".
Good, get it. I refer to it as "right of first refusal". I used a good bit of lawyer/negotiation capital to get it because most important to me - more than any financial consideration - was time with my kids. It gave me the comfort to know they couldn't just be dropped off with someone else instead of their father.
Josh, I'd sit on that e-mail for a day or two if you can! 1. Negotiations and finances are best left for when you're feeling calm and have consulted an attorney, 2. It sounds important to you to inform what she "needs" to do and that she can't, "Have her cake and eat it too." Why? Her attorney will advise her of all her rights and best moves soon. Are you trying to scare her back or to settle?
I agree w/Traveler. Don't respond to the email, or at the very least consult the L before you do.
Again, she hasn't thought this through because she plans to move 20 KMs away from her parents, her babysitter options are going to be restricted.
and she's already showing anxiety about it through attempting to talk about it
I genuinely think her ego does not allow her to face her shortcomings.
What I'm saying is that she needs to understand the reality, and not her distorted view that I'm there to fund her lifestyle.
Josh_T - I'll be honest. I'm seeing a whole lot of you analyzing your W, mind reading what she thinks and what she feels and what she needs to realize. And I've only pulled a few examples above. It comes across as a bit bitter (understandable considering the impending D) and a bit controlling. Try to take your focus off of what you think she should think and feel and do and onto what's best for you to address your shortcomings and make yourself a better man and improve your own path in life.
I'm not sure if it's a negotiation as of yet. It doesn't feel like it. It seems more like testing the waters because if it is, she is approaching it half heartedly. I promised to reply to an email in a couple of days. I will, but I guess without a promise to any financials. I was thinking of acknowledging that "Oh ya, there isn't enough money to live on each month, but I'm sure there will be plenty of savings after settlement to keep you going until you are ready for a job."
Don't say that. It comes across as a logical argument against D and trying to control and manipulate what she's planning (the D). Don't address taking care of her in a condescending way. I might not respond at all, but if you do consult the L first.
...yet
I only am approaching one to know where I stand. Just for advice. Nothing else yet.
Good. You should consult a L for advice. Know your rights and where you stand. Do not tell her.
Josh_T - I'll be honest. I'm seeing a whole lot of you analyzing your W, mind reading what she thinks and what she feels and what she needs to realize. And I've only pulled a few examples above. It comes across as a bit bitter (understandable considering the impending D) and a bit controlling. Try to take your focus off of what you think she should think and feel and do and onto what's best for you to address your shortcomings and make yourself a better man and improve your own path in life.
You are right. Let me focus on myself and my shortcomings and my own path in life.
Apparently the real estate agent is popping over on Saturday.
I'm from Australia.
You are right. Let me focus on myself and my shortcomings and my own path in life.
Good attitude. I don't blame you for those thoughts - I've certainly had similar ones - but they also don't serve to help you detach, move forward, and improve your life.
Apparently the real estate agent is popping over on Saturday.
Do you want to sell the house? I don't know the laws where you are, but I'd imagine you're not required to just because W is engaging a realtor, especially if no formal agreement / D proceedings have occurred.
You're in good company. Several here are from Australia. Perhaps OnlyBent or others will have some country-specific advice for you.
Apparently the real estate agent is popping over on Saturday.
Do you want to sell the house? I don't know the laws where you are, but I'd imagine you're not required to just because W is engaging a realtor, especially if no formal agreement / D proceedings have occurred.
No, I don't want to sell, I love the house. It's my dream house on the beach. But there is no financial way for W to move on if it doesn't. There is also no way for anyone of us to buy it out from the other. If I block, I feel I'd just be getting her more angry and resentful. At the same time, it's off market. It might take a while. And only when there is a compelling offer, do we have to face the music of a contract, agent agreement, etc.
W now wants a regular weekly catch up organised. I'm assuming to discuss progress on things. I'm not sure how I feel about that because it could easily turn into a forum for her to pressure things along. She SMSs "Lets try to find a good time to have a regular weekly catch up. Like for the next 18 year. LoL Maybe for now a weekend afternoon? We can chat about anything that happened, anything outstanding :)"
No, I don't want to sell, I love the house. It's my dream house on the beach.
Then personally I wouldn't commit to anything at this point, including signing on with a realtor.
But there is no financial way for W to move on if it doesn't.
That sounds like her problem, not yours.
There is also no way for anyone of us to buy it out from the other.
If you can't afford to buy out that's one thing, but have you explored options like a second mortgage or balance the equity off with other assets or work out a payment plan to her over the years? Food for thought.
If I block, I feel I'd just be getting her more angry and resentful.
You have to worry about what's in your best interest now, not hers. Don't make decisions based out of fear of what may or may not get her upset. Stand up for yourself and what you want; don't allow fear of her reaction bully you.
At the same time, it's off market. It might take a while. And only when there is a compelling offer, do we have to face the music of a contract, agent agreement, etc.
Or you might get an offer next week. Don't be pressured into any commitment unless you've really taken time to consider it and deem it your best option.
W now wants a regular weekly catch up organised.
Good for her. What do you want? She doesn't get to dictate how you interact with her.
She SMSs "Lets try to find a good time to have a regular weekly catch up. Like for the next 18 year. LoL Maybe for now a weekend afternoon? We can chat about anything that happened, anything outstanding :)"
"I'd prefer to communicate via email going forward."
I haven't read all of your thread, I see she had a previous bomb drop in 2018. Which leads me to ask - how confident are you that she was faithful in between 2018 and today's AP? Are you positive your 1 year old is your biological daughter?
lol, yes. I've been fixed, it was IVF.
No, I don't want to sell, I love the house. It's my dream house on the beach.
Then personally I wouldn't commit to anything at this point, including signing on with a realtor.
But there is no financial way for W to move on if it doesn't.
That sounds like her problem, not yours.
If I block, I feel I'd just be getting her more angry and resentful.
You have to worry about what's in your best interest now, not hers. Don't make decisions based out of fear of what may or may not get her upset. Stand up for yourself and what you want; don't allow fear of her reaction bully you.
What to others think? A few replies back, someone said I'd just create a caged animal full of resentment if I block. Another says embrace the divorce, which means I accept selling with gusto. Lastly, would it seem manipulative if I said selling is not in the best interest of the kids? Which it is not, it will disrupt their lives.
lol, yes. I've been fixed, it was IVF.
So you two purposefully planned out a third baby between BD 3 years ago and current BD? That's a tight window. I know several couples who have gone through IVF and it's quite the undertaking. I wonder if you both were completely convinced the marriage would work, or if one or both of you had reservations?
What to others think? A few replies back, someone said I'd just create a caged animal full of resentment if I block. Another says embrace the divorce, which means I accept selling with gusto. Lastly, would it seem manipulative if I said selling is not in the best interest of the kids? Which it is not, it will disrupt their lives.
Others can chime in but to clarify I was referring specifically to the sale of the house as part of a financial settlement/negotiation, not suggesting you "block" the divorce, which although I don't know Australia law I doubt you can do. If she wants it she'll get it (at least in the US). But the house is a financial asset needing to be addressed as part of the D settlement, which is up for negotiation. I just meant don't be pressured into using a realtor to sell the place at this time as a misguided attempt to avoid making her angry or resentful at you, if you really do want to keep the house in the D.
lol, yes. I've been fixed, it was IVF.
So you two purposefully planned out a third baby between BD 3 years ago and current BD? That's a tight window. I know several couples who have gone through IVF and it's quite the undertaking. I wonder if you both were completely convinced the marriage would work, or if one or both of you had reservations?
Yes, we genuinely wanted it to work and genuinely wanted kids. Whether we bother were convinced, I can't speak for W, but I was.
Here is the response from W on email communication, which was what she asked for yesterday.
"Meetings have a purpose. Face to face communication is useful, do you agree? I can't just use email it's not only very time consuming but also notorious for misunderstanding"
lol, yes. I've been fixed, it was IVF.
So you two purposefully planned out a third baby between BD 3 years ago and current BD? That's a tight window. I know several couples who have gone through IVF and it's quite the undertaking. I wonder if you both were completely convinced the marriage would work, or if one or both of you had reservations?
Yes, we genuinely wanted it to work and genuinely wanted kids. Whether we bother were convinced, I can't speak for W, but I was.
Here is the response from W on email communication, which was what she asked for yesterday.
"Meetings have a purpose. Face to face communication is useful, do you agree? I can't just use email it's not only very time consuming but also notorious for misunderstanding"
Let me translate for you:
"I don't want agreements in writing because then I can't go back on them later."
Josh,
You seem very focused on keeping the peace rather than whats best for you.
Comes across as either weak or Nice Guy Syndrome.
Your WW is in the driving seat at the minute and only you can switch cars and go your own way.
I get a sense that you are scared to annoy her, in case it adds further resentment. Detech and get into the head space that you shouldnt care if she resents you.. Its about working on you - because you can't fix her.
Ok Josh T it is time to get real here.
Um, I know why. She has been complaining about a lack of sex, and I've said it won't happen until there is respect and a connection.
Ok so you want the marriage more than her so unfortunately she is in control. You should have conceded and gave her the sex she was asking for and initiated. The beauty of it all is men typically connect more with their W through having sex. Eventually you both may have been satisfied.
We were going to hit the subject head on in couples counselling, and even discuss past fears in relationships.
Josh this all sounds great if she is interested in doing this but lets face it she doesn't and it's not sexy. She just wants to get laid and feel desired and sexy.
It was going to be a very confronting. I genuinely think her ego does not allow her to face her shortcomings.
Welcome to the club Josh. She thinks its you and you think it's her. Guess what? She wins because she doesn't want to address her issues and will D you and move on to someone else.
Maybe it was a co-incidence, I don't know. But thinking over the years of the games, blame, re-framing, gaslighting when there is a conversation about her attitude, the timing does make me wonder.
What's the prize here Josh? She has told you 3 times now you are not good enough.
What to others think? A few replies back, someone said I'd just create a caged animal full of resentment if I block. Another says embrace the divorce, which means I accept selling with gusto. Lastly, would it seem manipulative if I said selling is not in the best interest of the kids? Which it is not, it will disrupt their lives.
Why would that be manipulative if true? It sounds like you can't afford to keep it so I would sell it ASAP.
Partly because I'm not interested for emotional reasons, partly because she insists 100% of the time I must initiate which I don't do very often, partly due to sexual disfunction which was since solved, and partly because I'm tired of her criticizing me after every sexual encounter that something was wrong, or not good enough.
That sounds awful Josh. Did you ever try to improve?
We only learned this recently, but we have a classic pursuer/distancer relationship. My contribution to this is the distancer. We have a habit of a negative destructive behaviors that always seem to manifest. At the end of the day, I don't think we ever had a deep connection since we both can agree the issues started from the day we moved in together. She started getting assertive about how everything has to be her way, challenging it was constant effort and arguments. I didn't have the strength to enforce boundaries. I eventually stopped arguing and withdrew as the Nice Guy. That's the 10K ft view.
Ok you have diagnosed the problem. She is not interested in fixing the problem and wants a D. You can fight it and drag it out as long as possible while she builds more resentment or you can speed up the process and set your caged animal into the wild and go and find a nice woman who you can build a great relationship with moving forward. Your choice.
Ok Josh T it is time to get real here.
Partly because I'm not interested for emotional reasons, partly because she insists 100% of the time I must initiate which I don't do very often, partly due to sexual disfunction which was since solved, and partly because I'm tired of her criticizing me after every sexual encounter that something was wrong, or not good enough.
That sounds awful Josh. Did you ever try to improve?
Multiple times. After a while, things would fade, for one reason or another, and the pattern would repeat. Yeah, too late now, but self-esteem and fear of intimacy is something I'm exploring in IC. Looking back, my inability to set boundaries created resentment which meant I wasn't ever really interested...
Josh,
You seem very focused on keeping the peace rather than whats best for you.
Comes across as either weak or Nice Guy Syndrome.
Your WW is in the driving seat at the minute and only you can switch cars and go your own way.
I get a sense that you are scared to annoy her, in case it adds further resentment. Detech and get into the head space that you shouldnt care if she resents you.. Its about working on you - because you can't fix her.
You are so right. I've read the NGS book, and it resonates. And 10 years of W in the driver's seat makes it second nature for. I recall last DB where I didn't give a f*ck, she didn't try hard to challenge. I've got to let go, and move on, and be that guy. Like Steve
FWIW, I've said on no uncertain terms, email anything on numbers. I'm happy to talk next week, but you must back it with an email. I also said I don't want to be involved with the real estate agent. She's also getting curious as to why I'm suddenly leaving at night a few times a week (gym). I've dropped 40 pounds over the last 6 months, and about to start a weight lifting program.
Here is the response from W on email communication, which was what she asked for yesterday.
"Meetings have a purpose. Face to face communication is useful, do you agree? I can't just use email it's not only very time consuming but also notorious for misunderstanding"
I'm happy to talk next week, but you must back it with an email.
It's up to you how you want to communicate going forward. She can't make you need weekly in person for the next 18 years any more than you can make her email you details and numbers. However, you can train her by only responding to emails so if she wants to communicate she knows trying to set up in=person or phone calls aren't effective. If you want to meet in person, go for it, but typically LBSs have a tough time in person not getting emotion or having R talks or having that hurt their attachment. A business-like email gives you time to ponder and respond succinctly.
I've dropped 40 pounds over the last 6 months, and about to start a weight lifting program.
It's incredible common the LBS loses a lot of weight. You wouldn't believe how many threads on here the person lost 20, 30, 40 pounds in a short period. It tends to creep back on though if you don't change for the long term. Keep up the gym and add in weight lifting program. Just wait how good you look and feel in a few months. You keep that up and you'll be incredibly confident and attractive.
She's also getting curious as to why I'm suddenly leaving at night a few times a week (gym). I've dropped 40 pounds over the last 6 months, and about to start a weight lifting program.
This is awesome! Keep it up. When you GAL it can have a profound effect on the WAW/WW. I know it did on mine. There is something very attractive about a happy, engaged, busy man to women. Imagine if we were the way we end up in marriage, sitting on the couch doing nothing or similar, when we first met our wives? They probably wouldn't have stayed with us. It was exciting for them to see us on the go, hanging out with friends, having things to do and enjoying life. Especially apart from them. GAL is so powerful in a lot of ways, but this is certainly one of them.
Thanks for all this. Deep down, I know MR is finished. I know she's planning her financial future, beyond just selling the house. I see her browsing for new apartments, she has notes about trusts for kids, and is looking at International flights (to visit ex lover I suspect. I hope she doesn't expect me to take time off to look after the kids, because I stupidly did post BD 1. Talk about having no b@llz), and scribbled notes about child costs I'm expected to pay,
Why would I want this W back who has left me 3x now? Who disrespected me the first week we moved in together. Who never once stood by me in my time of need, but always ensured, over the duration of our marriage, that I don't forget the numerous times I wasn't there exactly as she expected.
I'm regaining my power to be stronger, to forge ahead, and to never be a Nice Guy again.
I'm not really DBing, am I?
Thanks for all this. Deep down, I know MR is finished. I know she's planning her financial future, beyond just selling the house. I see her browsing for new apartments, she has notes about trusts for kids, and is looking at International flights (to visit ex lover I suspect. I hope she doesn't expect me to take time off to look after the kids, because I stupidly did post BD 1. Talk about having no b@llz), and scribbled notes about child costs I'm expected to pay,
All standard procedure for WWs.
Why would I want this W back who has left me 3x now? Who disrespected me the first week we moved in together. Who never once stood by me in my time of need, but always ensured, over the duration of our marriage, that I don't forget the numerous times I wasn't there exactly as she expected.
FEAR. Most people will settle for the $hitty known than the potential for something great.
I'm not really DBing, am I?
What do you mean? To truly DB you are becoming a better version of yourself. Is that what you are doing?
Thanks for all this. Deep down, I know MR is finished. I know she's planning her financial future, beyond just selling the house. I see her browsing for new apartments, she has notes about trusts for kids, and is looking at International flights (to visit ex lover I suspect. I hope she doesn't expect me to take time off to look after the kids, because I stupidly did post BD 1. Talk about having no b@llz), and scribbled notes about child costs I'm expected to pay,
Why would I want this W back who has left me 3x now? Who disrespected me the first week we moved in together. Who never once stood by me in my time of need, but always ensured, over the duration of our marriage, that I don't forget the numerous times I wasn't there exactly as she expected.
I'm regaining my power to be stronger, to forge ahead, and to never be a Nice Guy again.
I'm not really DBing, am I?
Actually I'd argue you are! If more LBHs took this approach after BD there would be more Rs, I truly believe that. DBing is more about NOT trying to save the marriage in order to save the marriage.
But I would be careful assuming she will never want to R again. My WW was well down all of those paths as well before a fairly quick turnaround. It can happen.
But I would be careful assuming she will never want to R again. My WW was well down all of those paths as well before a fairly quick turnaround. It can happen.
UUuuum she did and then bomb him again twice. Time to move on. She's always going to have that itch until she goes out and sees for herself.
I'm not really DBing, am I?
What do you mean? To truly DB you are becoming a better version of yourself. Is that what you are doing?
Sure you are right, I just meant in the context of saving the marriage. I don't want to save it. She can't be what I need, what I want, what I deserve.
When we started counselling 6 months ago, when I started to lose weight, it all related to a deep awakening I had for a deep connection with someone, something I never felt before. That is what I see in my future. I actually tell that to myself a couple times a week. I surprise myself because before I started IC, I only had deep negative thoughts. A part of me over the last 6 months was always like, if W changed, how awesome would that be? She hardly ever changed in our 10+ years together. Maybe if I set the boundaries early on, but I never had the wisdom or emotional maturity for that.
I should be browsing for apartments now. It could be a quick sale.
But I would be careful assuming she will never want to R again. My WW was well down all of those paths as well before a fairly quick turnaround. It can happen.
Funny that. On more than one occasion she floated the idea of LAT since it removed domesticity. And she also suggested over the years, when she vocally said she wants to leave, she could see a time where post D she could fall for me again. Problem is 3x bombed, that feels like cake eating.
A part of me over the last 6 months was always like, if W changed, how awesome would that be?
This is what makes people suffer here on this board. I was the same way but at least at one point my exw was once a really amazing person. Sounds like you wanted your w to change from day one. She doesn't think anything is wrong with her. She is sure it's you. She won't be changing anytime soon. Think 5 years down the road maybe after she is put through the ringer by many different men.
Deep down, I know MR is finished. Why would I want this W back who has left me 3x now?
Yes--then the marriage is finished for now. The DB approach, "I don't want this divorce, but I won't stand in your way" assumes a desire to save the marriage, whereas you've sounded ambivalent. I get this is the third time you've been at this rodeo, and you feel she's disrespected you throughout the marriage. I would work on burning through that resentment in IC because holding in those feelings don't help anyone, and working on owning and 180'ing any desire to handle conflicts by withholding sex. Those will help whether you R or not.
looking at International flights (to visit ex lover I suspect.
Makes sense? You're throwing in the towel. She deserves pursuing sexual satisfaction and happiness.
I hope she doesn't expect me to take time off to look after the kids, because I stupidly did post BD
If you're done, her hopes and expectations, her reasons for asking you to watch the kids don't matter, because when you detach her feelings don't enter the calculus anymore. Do you want more time with your kids? Can you be free? My answer would be an enthusiastic "Yes!" I would ask her to cover any childcare costs during my work hours.
Makes sense? You're throwing in the towel. She deserves pursuing sexual satisfaction and happiness.
It's comments like this that solidify my stance that marriage is a joke.
Traveler just out of curiosity what in your mind changes if he didn't throw in the towel which he hasn't BTW?
And she also suggested over the years, when she vocally said she wants to leave, she could see a time where post D she could fall for me again.
WW BS at it's finest! It's all part of the script.
Yes--the marriage is finished for now. The DB approach, "I don't want this divorce, but I won't stand in your way" assumes a desire to save the marriage, whereas you've sounded ambivalent. I get this is the third time you've been at this rodeo, and you feel she's disrespected you throughout the marriage.
I desire, but it's not realistic, since she blatantly doesn't want to work on M. You are correct about ambivalence. If I wasn't, I'd have either put in way more effort over the years, or ended it myself much earlier on.
I hope she doesn't expect me to take time off to look after the kids, because I stupidly did post BD
If you're done, her hopes and expectations, her reasons for asking you to watch the kids don't matter, because when you detach her feelings don't enter the calculus anymore. Do you want more time with your kids? Can you be free? My answer would be an enthusiastic "Yes!" I would ask her to cover any childcare costs during my work hours.
Wow, again, I never really thought of it that way. You are right. Why would I turn down more kid time?
Makes sense? You're throwing in the towel. She deserves pursuing sexual satisfaction and happiness.
It's comments like this that solidify my stance that marriage is a joke.
Traveler just out of curiosity what in your mind changes if he didn't throw in the towel which he hasn't BTW?
I sound like I am, and I'm probably almost there, but its more about accepting the moment.
Josh it's normal that you are not done yet it will take some time.
It's comments like this that solidify my stance that marriage is a joke.
You're welcome to your view. To me, marriage is special and meaningful. I've loved and lost, I've married and lost. Would that they endured, but my heart isn't bitter. I value the good moments that I enjoyed and look forward to the next ones in my future.
But I would be careful assuming she will never want to R again. My WW was well down all of those paths as well before a fairly quick turnaround. It can happen.
Funny that. On more than one occasion she floated the idea of LAT since it removed domesticity. And she also suggested over the years, when she vocally said she wants to leave, she could see a time where post D she could fall for me again. Problem is 3x bombed, that feels like cake eating.
Cake eating is when doesn't want to be married or be a couple, but wants to play house and get the benefits from you of being married and being a couple. We see this all the time. Where when the chips are down and they need someone to be there, to fix something, to help them, they still call the LBS for that. (This can even be wanting sex!) I certainly think LAT falls into that category!
But many WASs have left, realized they made a mistake, and even after D decided they made a mistake. That can lead to a real R IF, IF the LBS is open to it. Most have moved on from it at that point.
I sound like I am, and I'm probably almost there, but its more about accepting the moment.
Certainly within your power to do! And being BD twice by her no one would blame you. However, it would probably get tested by her pretty quickly. As soon as she felt you were not only okay with the D, but actually wanted it, she would probably start hedging! We've seen that a lot in these situations! (Though admittedly some of them just do that to try to get the LBS back on the hook.)
Let's see how it goes. My head is much clearer now, thanks to everyone here. So far nothing on D is concrete, just talk, and her absorption in cleaning the house and "throwing" junk out. Serious comes when the house is sold.
In the meantime, more mysterious outings and behaviors are on the table...
More to come.
"Meetings have a purpose. Face to face communication is useful, do you agree? I can't just use email it's not only very time consuming but also notorious for misunderstanding"
Steve translated well for you.
Your response to this:
"W, i sent you an email"
See the beauty in this (YOUR) boundary. She will test, you will enforce. Her sending you a text is fine. Her leaving a voice mail is fine. You always have time to process what she says, and then respond in a well crafted email if needed.
Hold your boundary.
Your response to this:
"W, i sent you an email"
See the beauty in this (YOUR) boundary. She will test, you will enforce. Her sending you a text is fine. Her leaving a voice mail is fine. You always have time to process what she says, and then respond in a well crafted email if needed.
Hold your boundary.
Love it! A boundary CONTROLS YOU. She will surely test if you can stick to your boundaries.
Try not to cave (weak) but also try not to tell her what to do (controlling).
I just checked my Gmail account...over 2500 emails/text with my X. some of them were clarifying and reducing confusion emails.
Josh, draft up a response to her text and lets us give you feedback.
I actually never responded, and two hours later i get an MMS of our cat. When I got home she tried three times to talk about something financial because she came back from her IC. I think she even used the triangulation phrase "my therapist said..". I said no, but maybe a meeting next week (after I meet L). I also followed up by email saying even though a meeting, need email. She's not happy.
Later in the evening she was hovering near the door, right around the time I said I was going out. I couldn't really be vague since I had my gym bag.
In any event, I know what she is going to say too. No to duplex. Probably her IC said that is bad boundaries. And obviously an email to say that isn't a big deal. Not sure how that could be any sort of misunderstanding! Lol
Makes sense? You're throwing in the towel. She deserves pursuing sexual satisfaction and happiness.
It's comments like this that solidify my stance that marriage is a joke.
Traveler just out of curiosity what in your mind changes if he didn't throw in the towel which he hasn't BTW?
I'm not sure what he was trying to say but man it stinks like a pile of $#% around the corner.
I'm a pro marriage guy and I think Traveler's heart is always in the right place, I just really disagree with this (maybe I missed something).
Makes sense? You're throwing in the towel. She deserves pursuing sexual satisfaction and happiness.
It's comments like this that solidify my stance that marriage is a joke.
Traveler just out of curiosity what in your mind changes if he didn't throw in the towel which he hasn't BTW?
I'm not sure what he was trying to say but man it stinks like a pile of $#% around the corner.
I'm a pro marriage guy and I think Traveler's heart is always in the right place, I just really disagree with this (maybe I missed something).
You didn't miss anything. Traveler has a side of him that thinks you do what you need to do to be happy at all costs.