Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: McRamone New Here _2 - 11/23/21 07:23 PM
don't know how to link, but I think the thread limit is 100. So here goes

previous thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2926257

M(me) 50: W is 46. 2 sons. (teens)

Currently living apart. It is not fun. Kids live with me most of the time. Younger son spends some time at W's apt. We have a plan, but still just working through things.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/23/21 07:39 PM
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice

On Sunday night I was really wanting to shoot her a quick text talking about the weekend, but I didn't. I just distracted myself with video games. Yes, I'm 50 and play Xbox.

I Kind of laughed to myself during one exchange we had. We were talking about general stuff and she wanted to know if I notice that's she's been texting me a lot more.
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/23/21 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice
DBing is hard. Curious as to what you decided not to follow?

Originally Posted by McRamone
On Sunday night I was really wanting to shoot her a quick text talking about the weekend, but I didn't. I just distracted myself with video games. Yes, I'm 50 and play Xbox.
A little xbox is ok but of this is your go to GAL this might be part of the problem.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I Kind of laughed to myself during one exchange we had. We were talking about general stuff and she wanted to know if I notice that's she's been texting me a lot more.
These are what are known as breadcrumbs. You will get a lot of these so be careful not to eat them up. A good response would have been "no I really haven't noticed.

I told you I was separated for 3 months. My number one regret is that I didn't embrace the single life and live it up. I don't mean hook up with anyone but I wish I would have went out every free night I had instead of combing the internet looking for a way to save my marriage.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/23/21 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice
DBing is hard. Curious as to what you decided not to follow?
The part where I assume she's having sex with a ton of guys at her apt.


Originally Posted by McRamone
On Sunday night I was really wanting to shoot her a quick text talking about the weekend, but I didn't. I just distracted myself with video games. Yes, I'm 50 and play Xbox.
A little xbox is ok but of this is your go to GAL this might be part of the problem. [/quote]

nope, everyone can decide for themselves. It was Sunday night, gym was closed, most places were closed. etc.


Originally Posted by LH19
These are what are known as breadcrumbs. You will get a lot of these so be careful not to eat them up. A good response would have been "no I really haven't noticed.

I told you I was separated for 3 months. My number one regret is that I didn't embrace the single life and live it up. I don't mean hook up with anyone but I wish I would have went out every free night I had instead of combing the internet looking for a way to save my marriage.


I never told you my response. LOL

I'll be honest, I don't care to "live it up" or "embrace the single life." Honestly, it's not in my nature even when I was single. I was too busy working and being in school and doing sports/training or working taking care of immediate family. I never really partied or went to bars. Never picked up chicks. I do like to go to concerts. I went to two a few weeks ago and bought tickets to go to one in April but I have zero issues with going to concerts by myself. My son and I might see some musicals this spring. I also do yoga, cycling and running.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 11/23/21 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
It is my understanding that we can't link to other sources here.
Correct.

I just read a blog post on the topic. These skills are definitely worth adding to your "relationship toolbox". One challenging part will be learning when to use and when not to use certain skills. There are skills that are great when the R is good and they are horrible when the R is not good.

Quote
As my W says, you can have the feeling but its the behavior from the feeling that can cause problems.
Well said.

I would tell my kids it is OK to be angry, but it is not OK to hit each other. Helping them identify the feelings with words was part of my parenting style.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 11/23/21 10:14 PM
Search youtube "The BIGGEST Reasons MOST Relationships Fail"

I found these two statements:
Quote
We want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. That's the grand ideal. I want to be cozy with you and i want to have an edge and i want you to surprise me and i want you to be familiar and i want you to give me continuity and i want you to give me novelty, that's it.


You have to calibrate it. It's the same as when you walk you have to move from one foot to the other, a balance.


This is the big challenge. Keeping the balance. Most of us arrive here and we were missing part of this, or do not understand this. You might be different, but it is definitely worthwhile to take a look at. I tell posters "Don't be boring".
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice
DBing is hard. Curious as to what you decided not to follow?
The part where I assume she's having sex with a ton of guys at her apt.


Originally Posted by McRamone
On Sunday night I was really wanting to shoot her a quick text talking about the weekend, but I didn't. I just distracted myself with video games. Yes, I'm 50 and play Xbox.
A little xbox is ok but of this is your go to GAL this might be part of the problem.


nope, everyone can decide for themselves. It was Sunday night, gym was closed, most places were closed. etc.


Originally Posted by LH19
These are what are known as breadcrumbs. You will get a lot of these so be careful not to eat them up. A good response would have been "no I really haven't noticed.

I told you I was separated for 3 months. My number one regret is that I didn't embrace the single life and live it up. I don't mean hook up with anyone but I wish I would have went out every free night I had instead of combing the internet looking for a way to save my marriage.


I never told you my response. LOL

I'll be honest, I don't care to "live it up" or "embrace the single life." Honestly, it's not in my nature even when I was single. I was too busy working and being in school and doing sports/training or working taking care of immediate family. I never really partied or went to bars. Never picked up chicks. I do like to go to concerts. I went to two a few weeks ago and bought tickets to go to one in April but I have zero issues with going to concerts by myself. My son and I might see some musicals this spring. I also do yoga, cycling and running.[/quote]

Well posters thinking your w is sleeping with a bunch of dudes are opinions. It’s not really advice so I’m not sure what you mean?

Yes you certainly get to spend your free time as you see fit. Adult women in general are not attracted to video gamers.

Again the key to be successful is to create a life your WW wants to be apart of moving forward. Like R2C says “you don’t want to be boring”.

I get the sense you don’t like any advice you don’t agree with. I promise you in two years you will wish you would have been more receptive. Most people who come here have to learn the hard way that these situations are all scripted.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
I get the sense you don’t like any advice you don’t agree with.

Newsflash. No one like advice they don’t agree with. I’m open to advice for my situation. I’ve advised many clients giving the same advice for a contract dispute and a criminal case is foolish. I get the sense they advice here tries to be one size fits all. Every situation is different. No one here has taken the time to see that.

Case In point. I’ve outlined my GAL multiple times but you harp on me saying I played Xbox once.


Originally Posted by LH19
I promise you in two years you will wish you would have been more receptive. Most people who come here have to learn the hard way that these situations are all scripted.

I’d take that bet any day. How did following advice work for you? How long has your wife been back? Most people who come here seemed to end up divorced. That’s not my goal.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by McRamone
No one like advice they don’t agree with.

Sweeping generalisations are just the best aren't they. You're being defensive again, you need to get that out of your game mate. Its very unattractive.


Originally Posted by McRamone
I get the sense they advice here tries to be one size fits all. Every situation is different. No one here has taken the time to see that.

I'd bet you a lot of money that at least one person has told you that your situation is different.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I’d take that bet any day. How did following advice work for you? How long has your wife been back? Most people who come here seemed to end up divorced. That’s not my goal.

Are you sure you aren't tom_h? I didn't follow the advice for a while, and I ended up divorced. If I had, I probably would have still ended up divorced. BUT, I would have felt a lot more dignified if I had. You seem like a bloke who thinks he's different and that the rules don't apply to him like they do others. I used to be like that. My past 18 months has been a giant lesson in humility. One I'm glad I got. Don't waste the opportunity because of hubris.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 11:34 AM
Newsflash. If you are This condescending, defensive, and arrogant with your wife, well, that explains alot . It’s highly offensive, makes someone want to withdraw and distance themselves. I would imagine this is where 180’s would benefit you. And if you say the only person you aren’t like this with is your wife, then you are either lying, or are just treating everyone else poorly.

It’s true. Not many save their marriages. They are so far gone by the time anyone gets here. However, the ones who think the counter intuitive advice is BS and think their way will save their marriage don’t save their marriage either.

But the ones who do take it and don’t take the advice go on to keep repeating the same patterns in relationships and partnerships. Those who do take the advice and don’t go on to save their marriage, go on to make some really positive and healthy changes for their future romantic relationships and their relationships with their children even .

So, you can keep being condescending and arrogant , and not get your wife back ( I’m a female. And it’s a huge turnoff and would make me just want to withdraw) or you can make some positive changes that might be attractive and allow her to be more vulnerable.

It’s up to you of course.
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’m open to advice for my situation.
I think you are open to advice that fits your narrative.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’ve advised many clients giving the same advice for a contract dispute and a criminal case is foolish.
Your W had had an affair and at minimum is probably having an EA right now. On top of that she is asking for space from you. How is that different then most situations here?
Originally Posted by McRamone
I get the sense they advice here tries to be one size fits all.
Giving her the space she asked for and focusing on your kids and yourself is the recipe for EVERY situation.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Every situation is different.
Just the minor details.
Originally Posted by McRamone
No one here has taken the time to see that.
Well if go back and look I said I thought you situation might be a little different but I am wondering now if your W isn't placating you because of your challenging personality.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Case In point. I’ve outlined my GAL multiple times but you harp on me saying I played Xbox once.
Yes Mac spinning class, Yoga and musicals are great but I was thinking maybe something that gets you out of your comfort zone.
Originally Posted by McRamone
How did following advice work for you?

I was late finding DB and I did reconcile for awhile. I tried to give you advice on what I wished I would have done but again because it doesn't fit with your narrative you completely shot it down.
Originally Posted by McRamone
How long has your wife been back?

I have been divorced for 3.5 years and the happiest I have been in the last seven years.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Most people who come here seemed to end up divorced.
Like Ginger said by the time you get here it's too late. It's like trying to turn around the Titanic when it's full steam ahead.
Originally Posted by McRamone
That’s not my goal.
Well I think that is obviously why you are here. Look you can sit it at home playing xbox hoping your W comes home or you can embrace the advice here and give her space she has asked for and GAL like a mad man. It's certainly your choice Mac.
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 02:03 PM
Again a few quick things and I’m going to be blunt

Are you Tom H? I asked before and didn’t get an answer. And I see another poster is wondering now too.

Most people that come here only fit into a few categories. They came to late into the process, they don’t listen to the DB rules, or there marriage is already over and has been and they haven’t accepted it.

There is also a group of people who do have the opportunity to take their spouse back but choose not to because they have found themselves and realize they don’t want to be in a marriage where affairs, lies, and deceit have happened.

Your situation isn’t really different. I thought as LH did maybe yours way different. No, your wife is doing what she needs to do to get away as painlessly as possible for herself. I understand you’re a lawyer but that doesn’t mean everything in life is up for debate, compromise, or done your way. I suggest looking into your heart and not your mind.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 02:14 PM
Add me to the "this is Tom_h or one of our other argumentative posters that likes to reappear with a new screen name" group.
Posted By: Traveler Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
How long has your wife been back?
Hi McRamone, these sorts of pokes are interesting. The other poster being referenced, tom_h, had a wife who ran in the other direction and he claimed he only used that argumentative style with people other than her. I don’t much care about your opinion of any of us—I barely know you—but if many people are responding negatively to your style of communicating, that seems a sign of an area where a 180 could potentially help you with your wife, in your career, and with others.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice
DBing is hard. Curious as to what you decided not to follow?
The part where I assume she's having sex with a ton of guys at her apt.


Originally Posted by McRamone
On Sunday night I was really wanting to shoot her a quick text talking about the weekend, but I didn't. I just distracted myself with video games. Yes, I'm 50 and play Xbox.
A little xbox is ok but of this is your go to GAL this might be part of the problem.


nope, everyone can decide for themselves. It was Sunday night, gym was closed, most places were closed. etc.


Originally Posted by LH19
These are what are known as breadcrumbs. You will get a lot of these so be careful not to eat them up. A good response would have been "no I really haven't noticed.

I told you I was separated for 3 months. My number one regret is that I didn't embrace the single life and live it up. I don't mean hook up with anyone but I wish I would have went out every free night I had instead of combing the internet looking for a way to save my marriage.


I never told you my response. LOL

I'll be honest, I don't care to "live it up" or "embrace the single life." Honestly, it's not in my nature even when I was single. I was too busy working and being in school and doing sports/training or working taking care of immediate family. I never really partied or went to bars. Never picked up chicks. I do like to go to concerts. I went to two a few weeks ago and bought tickets to go to one in April but I have zero issues with going to concerts by myself. My son and I might see some musicals this spring. I also do yoga, cycling and running.[/quote]


Those things you said do seem a bit like embracing the single life, I guess it depends on your perspective. But you sound similar like you were similar to a single friend of mine.

LH's point of embracing the single life was to not mope around waiting for her, not necessarily go hit up the babes for their digits.

The part where you assume she is having sex with someone is very fair and highly likely, and if you have experience in advising people then you should understand that you are in the situation and don't have the same perspective as outside counsel might. Some of the people here have seen hundreds or even thousands of situations. They know the "script" when they read it.

You had a "wow...just wow" response to R2C back on page 2 of your first thread in regards to dating and separation. I really think you are missing information. You have an idea of how marriage, separation, and divorce works. This is "your truth"...but reality still exists and it is slapping you in the face. Now no one is saying that beyond a doubt that she is seeing someone, but it is more than likely and you should prepare the worst while hoping for the best. You don't need to dwell on this, though bit may be unavoidable for a while.

The Xbox thing LH19 said is not the issue you think it is. If you can detach a bit, you will see his wisdom. And maybe it is just in your nature to want to argue. I am an identical twin and arguing and fighting is like breathing and blinking to me.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’m open to advice for my situation.
Get out of your comfort zone. Get into IC 3X a week. Commit to being the best parent ever and take parenting classes. Take a hard look at your core values and determine if they need adjustment. Challenge your current beliefs. Commit to personal growth. Read and follow the four agreements. Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Do this in all areas (SPIES - Social, Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual.) Get in alignment (Beliefs, Thoughts, Body Language, Tones, Words, Actions) with your core values. Learn ways of being more attractive, especially in your behavior. Learn ways of being seductive (indirectly attracting). This is an extremely important set of skills to understand. Try new ways of interacting. Practice with us.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 11/24/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You had a "wow...just wow" response to R2C back on page 2 of your first thread in regards to dating and separation
Just to clarify, that was LH19 that was quoted, but had my name for some reason.
Posted By: Thornton Re: New Here _2 - 11/26/21 04:08 AM
I agree with the others. You come across as pompous.

I think it’s safe to assume it’s one of the reasons your W decided to leave you.

A little humility will go a long way for you. Good luck.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 11/26/21 08:54 AM
This is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth (or not):

A lot of the vets here are smart people and their advice is usually spot on. I can understand why some of the advice feels like a one size fits all approach - but it is not for reasons that you may think.

In most scenarios, there are genuine reasons for a WAS to leave and most of the advice will only work after you identify and fix the problems that led to the WAS leaving. For example, no amount of GAL is going to re-attract your W till she sees changes in you. On the contrary, the separation will reinforce her decision as long as she continues to see offending behaviors. Reading through your thread, it is easy to identify many reasons that could have possibly led to the deterioration of your relationship. Other posters have called out some specific flaws and you had mentioned your W and MC had communicated reasons to you too, which you categorized as them ‘ganging up on you’. As long as you are defensive, your chances of R are low. Many posters here are people that are otherwise successful despite any relationship failures, so having a superiority complex will not help your cause.

The measure of success here is not whether your W returns to you because that is no longer in your control, whether you admit it or not. Your true measure of success is whether you learn and grow from this experience to become a better person that can have better relationships going forward, romantic or otherwise.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/26/21 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
This is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth (or not):

A lot of the vets here are smart people and their advice is usually spot on. I can understand why some of the advice feels like a one size fits all approach - but it is not for reasons that you may think.

I read a post a while ago from LH who said that he was taking a break because he was giving a lot of negative advice. I've seen that from most people here from day 1.


Originally Posted by MLCxH
In most scenarios, there are genuine reasons for a WAS to leave and most of the advice will only work after you identify and fix the problems that led to the WAS leaving. For example, no amount of GAL is going to re-attract your W till she sees changes in you. On the contrary, the separation will reinforce her decision as long as she continues to see offending behaviors. Reading through your thread, it is easy to identify many reasons that could have possibly led to the deterioration of your relationship. Other posters have called out some specific flaws and you had mentioned your W and MC had communicated reasons to you too, which you categorized as them ‘ganging up on you’. As long as you are defensive, your chances of R are low. Many posters here are people that are otherwise successful despite any relationship failures, so having a superiority complex will not help your cause.

The measure of success here is not whether your W returns to you because that is no longer in your control, whether you admit it or not. Your true measure of success is whether you learn and grow from this experience to become a better person that can have better relationships going forward, romantic or otherwise.

Sorry but this is a crock. The site literally says "How to save your marriage" Not "How to survive a divorce."
Some people will grow...some wont. Time will heal most of the wounds - regardless. There are 100s of methods.

It's funny you say "grow" is a measure of success. You see posters who called me out - making the same mistakes on other parts of the forum in their second or third relationship. Some who can't manage parts of their own lives. There are a least a couple of posters who got someone pregnant while still married to their spouse. At least one success story is from a guy domineering to his W. It's not a superiority complex, it's just pointing out the truth. The truth is ugly and people like to hide from their own truth.

The only thing you said that is true is this
Quote
posters here are people
.

My mistake is sometimes forgetting that. It's easy to see words on a screen being negative in post after post and forget there is a real person behind the computer. For that I apologize.

But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. I am a real person behind the post who is experiencing a hurt like no other. A hurt...you think these people would have some empathy with. But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. My W is also a person who I love.

In reading their stories, 99% have made all the same mistakes. No one here has all the answers. No one here knows everyone's situation.


I realize it was a mistake to come here. I wasn't looking for how to forget my W or how to divorce my W. I thought this place would offer me a space to talk through things and vent on what was happening. It ended up being a net negative.
Now you can just chalk it down to an isolated person, but the fact is there isn't much traffic here and I can't help but think the toxicity and negativity is a part of it.
Posted By: Traveler Re: New Here _2 - 11/26/21 06:26 PM
McRamone may be leaving, but I'll address key bits for lurkers here, and McRamone himself will almost certainly read this whether or not he replies.

Originally Posted by MlcXh
The measure of success here is not whether your W returns to you because that is no longer in your control, whether you admit it or not. Your true measure of success is whether you learn and grow from this experience to become a better person that can have better relationships going forward, romantic or otherwise.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Sorry but this is a crock. The site literally says "How to save your marriage" Not "How to survive a divorce."

Goals should be SMART--Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely. You don't control whether you achieve "I survive a natural disaster." or "My wife returns." In the former case, you do control whether you stock adequate food and water. In the latter case, you do control whether you listen and validate or get defensive with others. Additionally, these activities increase your chances of surviving a natural disaster or of saving your marriage.

Originally Posted by McRamone
In reading their stories, 99% have made all the same mistakes.
Far fewer than 100 people have responded to your thread--maybe 15?--and even among that sample May, Steve, and some others have reconciled and remain married. I got a chance to R. Not everyone does. The odds are often against you by the time you're here. I do not see most people in this thread making "all the same mistakes". We are human and do err.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Some people will grow...some wont.
You control if you grow or not in terms of improving your communication style. Your belief in arrogance (your word choice) and poking at others don't seem productive.

Originally Posted by McRamone
. I am a real person behind the post who is experiencing a hurt like no other
I can relate. I'm sorry your wife has moved out.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I realize it was a mistake to come here.
Time will tell, McRamone. If you're inclined, report back in 3 months on what changes you made and whether she moved back in. We're rooting for you. Good luck!
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 11/26/21 11:26 PM
I understand and relate to your frustration.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Sorry but this is a crock. The site literally says "How to save your marriage" Not "How to survive a divorce."

This is a common problem and I understand how the wrong expectation that is set is annoying and frustrating. From my personal observation, there are only a small percentage of posters that end up on this forum reconciling with their spouses. It is often too late by the time we end up here. However, from what I have seen some of the counter intuitive advice is often the best course of action for the LBS regardless. The LBS has limited control on what their WAS spouse will do. The only thing the LBS controls is what they do and the advice is geared towards that.

I came to this forum expecting to save my marriage too and realized that this forum won’t likely help me get to my goal. On the flip side, I also realized that there were no other good alternatives to save my marriage either. Once a glass of milk is dropped on the floor, there are limited options to recover and consume that milk. If you are lucky you can fetch some new milk in the same glass but often even the glass has to be replaced. Similarly, you have to accept that your old relationship with your W has ended. You can start a new relationship with your wife (fetch fresh new milk in the same glass) if you’re lucky. If not, you have to prepare yourself to get fresh milk in a new glass (start a new relationship with a new person). Trying to drink the milk off the floor with pieces of broken glass in it can be dangerous and some of the advice helps prevent that. And yes, I do understand that’s not the advice that brought you to this forum.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Some people will grow...some wont. Time will heal most of the wounds - regardless. There are 100s of methods.

That’s accurate. If there is a method that works better for you, you should adopt that. You have realized by now that every person’s advice in this forum is influenced by their personal opinions and the advice varies. You have to pick what works for you. However, that does not mean you only pick the advice that aligns with what you are comfortable with. You need to take a step back, get out of your comfort zone, identify and face your flaws. If you are defensive you are losing a valuable opportunity to help yourself and potentially salvage restart a new relationship with your W.


Originally Posted by McRamone
It's funny you say "grow" is a measure of success. You see posters who called me out - making the same mistakes on other parts of the forum in their second or third relationship. Some who can't manage parts of their own lives. There are a least a couple of posters who got someone pregnant while still married to their spouse. At least one success story is from a guy domineering to his W. It's not a superiority complex, it's just pointing out the truth. The truth is ugly and people like to hide from their own truth.

Originally Posted by McRamone
The only thing you said that is true is this
[quote] posters here are people
.

Absolutely right! They are people and it is harder to follow advice than dish it out. That does not mean the advice is incorrect. Doctors advice their patients to eat a healthy diet and maintain a healthy weight. Yet, you see a lot of overweight doctors. There are many doctors who smoke or even consume drugs. That does not mean their advice is incorrect. Don’t judge the advice by the ability of the person to lead by example.

Originally Posted by McRamone
But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. I am a real person behind the post who is experiencing a hurt like no other. A hurt...you think these people would have some empathy with. But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. My W is also a person who I love.

Many posters tend to be blunt. Sometimes they are judgmental and many times the advise can be wrong. Understand that they are not professionals, just ordinary people. That is why one of the oft repeated advice is to get into iC. You need to have professional guidance and use this as a supplement and not the other way around. That does not mean the advice won’t help you. You are a smart person and can discern what advice makes sense and what does not. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.


Originally Posted by McRamone
In reading their stories, 99% have made all the same mistakes. No one here has all the answers. No one here knows everyone's situation.



The advice you are getting is based on the experience of the posters. As you said it, most of them have made the same mistakes and lived through the consequences. Some of them are still making mistakes because there is a difference between knowing what to do and doing it. They are rooting for you and don’t want you to repeat their mistakes.




Originally Posted by McRamone
I realize it was a mistake to come here. I wasn't looking for how to forget my W or how to divorce my W. I thought this place would offer me a space to talk through things and vent on what was happening. It ended up being a net negative.
Now you can just chalk it down to an isolated person, but the fact is there isn't much traffic here and I can't help but think the toxicity and negativity is a part of it.

For many ending up on this forum is serendipity. If there is one thing this site is good at, it is holding up a mirror for you to see the harsh reality of your situation. I agree that the discussions can get toxic and negative at times and that is one reason I don’t post as much. However, I don’t think the discussion has been toxic on your thread. As frustrated as you are, I think the posters are frustrated more because of your defensiveness. I would encourage you to be less defensive and view the advice in the context of what you can do given the limited options in your sitch rather than the goal of salvaging your old relationship. Don’t set your goal as wanting to drink spilt milk from a potentially broken glass.
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 11/27/21 04:09 AM
I’m sorry you feel this way.

I assume since you refuse to acknowledge if you are Tom H or another poster that must be it.

We are all human, we all make mistakes. We all the made the same mistake you made and are making. Theres no fake change you can make to get your spouse back. That there is a magic bullet to allure your wife back.

That point of this forum is to save yourself. Your spouse didn’t decide one day to cheat on you for fun. It’s to support you as you go through the motions of figuring out what went wrong. To be the best you, you can be and they hopefully re attracts your wife. And if not, you are the best happiest version of yourself and that helps your future relationships.

Good luck in the future.
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/27/21 12:19 PM
Mac,

I know now your story is not real but I will post on your thread for others who are reading. I will speak to the point of your reference to me when I said I need to take a break because I was being too negative. What I meant was I was recommending the LBS file for D a lot. It’s only negative in the connotation that it’s the opposite of what this site is about. Lately we have lots of WS who actively are on dating sites and have boyfriends/girlfriends while still married. They don’t even try to hide it anymore. IMO that amount of disrespect shouldn’t be tolerated. Plus IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Whoever you are your point is taken that when you are in the thick of it the advice given is hard to implement because your brain is trying to convince you otherwise. We have the hindsight that the posters don’t. We know they will be ok either way when they can’t see it.

Also since this is more of open thread I will give you in insight to why I am not a fan of WS. I use to love Thanksgiving I think it was my favorite holiday. What’s not to like , family, football, two dinners, drinks, long weekends, decorating for Christmas etc. My daughter and I have been cooking dinner for my parents and my two Aunts the last two years. We had fun cooking and listening to music the entire time. Fast forward to Friday and I got up early to get the Christmas decorations out of the basement and put up the tree. My daughter came down and ate breakfast so I asked her to wake up her brother to decorate the tree. She said she didn’t want to decorate the tree because she had to do it at her moms today. So I said “lucky you that you get to do it twice”. She ran up the stairs crying. I gave her some time and went to her room. She said she’s sick of doing everything twice. She’s sick of having two houses. So we continued the discussion and the next thing you know we are both in tears and I told her I didn’t want two houses either. So she says to me “then why did you choose this?” She’s under the impression that it was a mutual decision. I still don’t have the heart to tell her.

Although my life is really good right now I am not sure I will ever enjoy the holidays like I did in the past.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 11/27/21 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So we continued the discussion and the next thing you know we are both in tears and I told her I didn’t want two houses either. So she says to me “then why did you choose this?” She’s under the impression that it was a mutual decision. I still don’t have the heart to tell her.

Kudos, my friend. It’s hard to do but you did the right thing by not telling her. Loving and respecting both parents is best for the kids and as y’all vets say we need to be the larger person to compensate for any shortcomings of the WAS!
Posted By: DonH Re: New Here _2 - 11/27/21 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Interesting. I was recently at a wedding, well performing as part of the music. The vows they took from what I remember talked about forever no matter what, in sickness or health, good or bad, until death. I must have missed the part where the minister said it’s really just a piece of paper that can be undone at anytime. SMH
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/27/21 06:32 PM
Well Don I said divorce was a piece of paper that get be undone at any time but yep my point works for marriage too.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 11/28/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by DonH
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Interesting. I was recently at a wedding, well performing as part of the music. The vows they took from what I remember talked about forever no matter what, in sickness or health, good or bad, until death. I must have missed the part where the minister said it’s really just a piece of paper that can be undone at anytime. SMH

Marriage is usually nothing more than a contract made by two people in a relationship. Two people in a relationship can do exactly the same things as a married couple without getting married such as loving each other in sickness until death or raising children. The difference is when society has laws or customs that differentiate between married and unmarried couples. It’s hard for most people to accept an unromantic version of marriage but reality is that in many instances you can go to a courthouse sign the marriage contract and be legally married without vows, a ceremony or a music band smile

50% of all marriages end in divorce and a large percentage of those that don’t end in divorce have isssues like adultery or EAs. If the vows really mean something, shouldn’t you technically be divorced once one of the spouses willfully breaks the vows with no regard for the other?
Posted By: Spiral Re: New Here _2 - 11/28/21 08:21 AM
I think there's a difference in outcomes between the folks that end up reading the posts here, the folks that post for a bit and disappear, and the folks that end up posting long threads and keep posting for years. There are probably more reconciliations among the former two groups than the latter group. So, in judging the methods and advice here, I think that it is important to keep in mind what happens to those other groups as well as what happens for the regular posters. While I did not succeed in saving my marriage, I'm pretty that there are others who could save their marriages if they followed my path.

But when this approach doesn't succeed in saving a marriage, I don't know if there's anything else that would make a difference. I certainly never thought of anything else to try.

As for advice on how to survive a divorce, I certainly hope that people don't need that advice and that they can save their marriage. But if you do need that advice and I certainly did, the advice and the posters here are absolutely precious. The folks here saved me from so much emotional anguish, I'll be forever grateful.

Just remember, that the posters here understand what you're feeling, what you're going through, and are trying to help you.

In the end, you'll come to understand much of what drives the advice and to see that things you thought were wrong were actually right.

The only advice I question is Steve's opinion on how many wayward spouses want to reconcile. (Sorry, Steve). But maybe, I'm just in the 10%.

-Spiral
Posted By: Jason88 Re: New Here _2 - 11/28/21 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Well Don I said divorce was a piece of paper that get be undone at any time but yep my point works for marriage too.


LH, I agree with you that divorce is just a piece a paper that could be easily undone.

But I think the problem is that there are a few things which prevent WAWs from contacting the LBS and patching things up :
- guilt and shame for cheating, leaving and treating him badly
- afraid of admitting being wrong
- refusing to give the LBS back the power

Personnally I think for these reasons my ex wife will never reach out to me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/28/21 12:08 PM
Well Spiral in Steve’s defense he does say the timeline extends to one person dies so hopefully you really have a long time to figure out of he is right.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: New Here _2 - 11/29/21 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Spiral
The only advice I question is Steve's opinion on how many wayward spouses want to reconcile. (Sorry, Steve). But maybe, I'm just in the 10%.

-Spiral

Spiral, I base that on lots of reading I've done where, mostly, female writers predict that at some point in the future, post D and even after marriages to other people, the WAW comes sniffing back around hoping for a R. I think people take it out of context when I say that, and I have stopped saying it very much because it tends to give LBSs a false sense of hope. "If I wait long enough she will want to R!" I've never said that to get the LBH to wait for their WAW! I said it to show that WWs in particular do not even realize what they are doing....and by time they do it is usually too late.

No need to apologize! We all are entitled to our opinions! smile
Posted By: Cadet Re: New Here _2 - 11/29/21 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Spiral
I think there's a difference in outcomes between the folks that end up reading the posts here, the folks that post for a bit and disappear, and the folks that end up posting long threads and keep posting for years. There are probably more reconciliations among the former two groups than the latter group. So, in judging the methods and advice here, I think that it is important to keep in mind what happens to those other groups as well as what happens for the regular posters. While I did not succeed in saving my marriage, I'm pretty that there are others who could save their marriages if they followed my path.

But when this approach doesn't succeed in saving a marriage, I don't know if there's anything else that would make a difference. I certainly never thought of anything else to try.

As for advice on how to survive a divorce, I certainly hope that people don't need that advice and that they can save their marriage. But if you do need that advice and I certainly did, the advice and the posters here are absolutely precious. The folks here saved me from so much emotional anguish, I'll be forever grateful.

Just remember, that the posters here understand what you're feeling, what you're going through, and are trying to help you.

In the end, you'll come to understand much of what drives the advice and to see that things you thought were wrong were actually right.

The only advice I question is Steve's opinion on how many wayward spouses want to reconcile. (Sorry, Steve). But maybe, I'm just in the 10%.

-Spiral

The advice here works 100% of the time,
the statement might be though what does "works" mean?

It means that you can save yourself.
Until you do that their is no hope that you can save your marriage.

Only happy and healthy people can be in a successful relationship and marriage.
So your mission is to become that person because you are the only person that you can control.

After you become that person then you can make further decisions in regards to your marriage and relationship.
Of course you need your partner to be the same as YOU.
Posted By: BL42 Re: New Here _2 - 11/29/21 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
My daughter came down and ate breakfast so I asked her to wake up her brother to decorate the tree. She said she didn’t want to decorate the tree because she had to do it at her moms today. So I said “lucky you that you get to do it twice”. She ran up the stairs crying. I gave her some time and went to her room. She said she’s sick of doing everything twice. She’s sick of having two houses.
LH - That's a tough situation with your daughter and the holidays. My kids are young and enjoying the extra activities for now, but I can see a point in the future when they're older where they're tired of (or even resent) the double effort. One of the suggestions I've read on here is don't worry about the specific day as much as spending time with your kids (E.g., birthday or holiday observed). Similarly, I wonder in the future instead of decorating the tree twice let them do that with ExW and create a fun activity (E.g., water park) tradition with them instead. I may consider that approach in the future if I ever encounter that push back with my kids.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by LH19
So we continued the discussion and the next thing you know we are both in tears and I told her I didn’t want two houses either. So she says to me “then why did you choose this?” She’s under the impression that it was a mutual decision. I still don’t have the heart to tell her.
Kudos, my friend. It’s hard to do but you did the right thing by not telling her. Loving and respecting both parents is best for the kids and as y’all vets say we need to be the larger person to compensate for any shortcomings of the WAS!
Honest question...is this the right approach? I'm not saying getting them caught in the middle or fighting or delving into the ugly details, but I've read other online resources advocating being honest at an age appropriate level about where you stand as a parent so the children can trust you to be open and honest with them, otherwise when they ultimately find out the truth down the road and find out you played along with the false narrative (or even lied about it) they don't feel like they can't trust you either.

Not sure on the age of LH's son and daughter, but (especially if they're older) is it the right thing to continue allowing them to believe it was a mutual decision? Or would it be better to be upfront and honest and say "I wanted to work on the marriage and keep the family together, but it wasn't my decision."...without getting into affairs or detailed disagreements.

I struggle myself with how to approach this with my own kids going forward.
Posted By: Traveler Re: New Here _2 - 11/29/21 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by LH
My daughter came down and ate breakfast so I asked her to wake up her brother to decorate the tree. She said she didn’t want to decorate the tree because she had to do it at her moms today. So I said “lucky you that you get to do it twice”. She ran up the stairs crying. I gave her some time and went to her room. She said she’s sick of doing everything twice. She’s sick of having two houses.

Originally Posted by BL42
LH - That's a tough situation with your daughter and the holidays. My kids are young and enjoying the extra activities for now, but I can see a point in the future when they're older where they're tired of (or even resent) the double effort. One of the suggestions I've read on here is don't worry about the specific day as much as spending time with your kids (E.g., birthday or holiday observed). Similarly, I wonder in the future instead of decorating the tree twice let them do that with ExW and create a fun activity (E.g., water park) tradition with them instead. I may consider that approach in the future if I ever encounter that push back with my kids.

Hi LH,

Wow--11yrs divorced and never ran into that one. Then again, my kids have never had to do anything twice for the holidays ala BL42's idea. Most holidays have so many activities to choose from! I do whatever they haven't already done. E.g., for Halloween there's: (1) Trick or Treating, (2) Getting a costume, (3) Getting/carving a Jack-o-Lantern, (4) Corn mazes, (5) Halloween parties, (6) Haunted houses, (7) Scary movies, (8) Decorating the house, etc. Over time, the activities you prioritize and have fun doing tend to become your traditions and your kids will prefer to do them with you. I'm sorry your daughter is struggling with two households. Just some ideas to help her adjust!
Posted By: DonH Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 12:01 AM
I tend to agree with BL 42 but I also tend to be brutally honest. The trick is to not throw it all on her mom. Perhaps the answer could be “what makes you think that I did choose this? Sometimes we have to make the best out of situations that we did not choose.”

Or something like that. It’s a difficult situation to mange. In the end kids tend to figure out the truth. The challage is often to make sure it doesn’t appear they were lied to.
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 01:33 AM
There’s a lot of layers. I was never directly asked before Friday. I didn’t lie I just said you’re to young to understand right now. Her and her mother’s relationship is fragile right now so I’m not sure it needs any fire. Lastly she’s still is a WAW and has stick to her narrative. A caged animal will attack when cornered.

There’s going to be bumps in the road of life and we had one and got through it.
Posted By: may22 Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 01:56 AM
((LH))
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Mac,

I know now your story is not real.


This is exactly why I left. You have ZERO knowledge of this. None. What proof do you have?

NONE. You are just making up cr@p to look like you know things...which you don't. Anyone who doesn't fit in your narrative is "making up things?"

Or people say you are so and so? It's BS. None of you know anything - I guess the mods do know more.

I guarantee my situation is 100% real but in the end I know that truth not some people who have read a handful of posts and make snap judgements. If my story isn't real, none of the stories are real. Maybe you are making up things. Are you?

By saying it's not real you give yourself and everyone here permission at act in the way they did. It's more for for you than an accusation. If you need that to make yourself feel better. So be it.

I guess the only thing I didn't acknowledge is that I have been lurking here for a while. The forum is public.
Posted By: Traveler Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
None of you know anything
Originally Posted by CWarrior
You control if you grow or not in terms of improving your communication style. Your belief in arrogance (your word choice) and poking at others don't seem productive.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Lately we have lots of WS who actively are on dating sites and have boyfriends/girlfriends while still married. They don’t even try to hide it anymore. IMO that amount of disrespect shouldn’t be tolerated. Plus IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.


it seems there are a lot LBS who are also dating while claiming to 'stand' for their marriage. Divorce is more than a piece of paper. You know that. The actual divorce occurs long before the paper is signed. If divorce is a piece of paper, then so is marriage.
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:22 PM
Also, this place has become very insular. it's hard to break it. Heck you guys accused Galaga of being a troll. I wonder what MWD would say about this.
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:23 PM
We know the forum is public, it’s why we don’t give out personal info like names, email etc.

If you’ve been lurking than something positive you saw on here must have gotten you to post. I would focus on that.

We are all adults, no one needed LH to say anything for us to act any way. We aren’t in highschool, there isn’t a mob mentality. The responses you’ve received is because of the way you have responded. No other reason.

I assumed you were another poster because you act just like them to the tee, and never denied it when I asked.

Please read CWs last post, and than read it again.
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, this place has become very insular. it's hard to break it. Heck you guys accused Galaga of being a troll. I wonder what MWD would say about this.

As far as Galaga, it wasn’t you guys, it was me. I feel for him and what he is going through and what he went through, and he still logs on and looks. I have apologized to him, but he was drunk posting, he continues to drink and has his own issues to deal without outside of this forum. I will not enable him, or be sympathetic towards someone who is still continuing destructive behavior.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 05:27 PM
McRamone,
I am wondering what you were hoping to achieve from this forum?

If you are looking for ways to prevent your divorce, you already have feedback on what your best course of action is. I know the feedback regarding the limited control you have on your wife's actions or the potential odds of reconciliation are not encouraging but it is what it is.

If you are looking for a place to vent, I am not sure this is the right forum. People here tend to give blunt and honest feedback and it is not always pleasant to hear.

I find that you ignore good feedback and tend to focus on your replies on comments that you perceive negatively leading to an argument rather than a discussion. Not saying you are a troll, but this is probably one of the reasons others have accused of being one.
Posted By: BL42 Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 05:34 PM
McRamone,

Originally Posted by JosephS
Are you Tom H? I asked before and didn’t get an answer.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Are you sure you aren't tom_h?
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Add me to the "this is Tom_h or one of our other argumentative posters that likes to reappear with a new screen name" group.
Originally Posted by LH19
Mac, I know now your story is not real but I will post on your thread for others who are reading
I have no idea whether you're a former poster under a different screenname, as JosephS/OnlyBent/SteveLW question, or if you're fake, as LH19 states. I have no reason to believe you're not a real person with a real situation, and can completely understand if that's the case you're frustrated and turned off by those accusations.

That said...

I do know you've been very combative about the advice, sometimes attacking other posters, and seemingly more interested in arguing and debating at times than being reflective on your own situation and where you can improve and how the posters on the forum can help. It shows through in your most recent responses:

Originally Posted by McRamone
This is exactly why I left. You have ZERO knowledge of this. None. What proof do you have?
Originally Posted by McRamone
it seems there are a lot LBS who are also dating while claiming to 'stand' for their marriage. Divorce is more than a piece of paper. You know that. The actual divorce occurs long before the paper is signed. If divorce is a piece of paper, then so is marriage.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, this place has become very insular. it's hard to break it. Heck you guys accused Galaga of being a troll. I wonder what MWD would say about this.

I suggest a reset to all. If, McRamone, you are here to seek support and advice...why don't you share an update of your situation and where you're struggling / need help? If you do I will try to lend a hand in good faith, as I assume others will as well.
Posted By: LanceSijan Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 06:29 PM
Hmm very interesting - I wouldn't know anything about this but sometimes all is not as it appears.

There can be various reasons for creating an alter ego.

I got shot down while flying my F4 over North Vietnam during the war,
so I wouldn't want my captors to know that I didn't really die and have lived to tell the story.

If you don't believe me google my name.......
Posted By: Thornton Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 07:28 PM
McRamone,

Start by doing some Google/YouTube searches on how to reconcile with your W.

You will see a pattern that very closely aligns with what everyone here is telling you.

I can only assume you are in a lot of pain and are desperate to save your marriage, I know I was. And the advice I was given to let her go, detach, "act as if", focus on myself rubbed me the wrong way at first too. Afterall, I wanted more closeness with my WAS, not distance.

However, once I grasped the concepts and applied them, they worked. My WAS came back, she was curious about me and our roles reversed. She begged me to take her back during a 2 hour convo in a Starbucks. I hadn't seen her or spoken to her for 2 months prior to that meeting.

She left once again about year later and moved to another state, and I applied the same concepts. Go figure, after a few months of zero contact, she started calling me and telling me how badly she messed up. She had been watching my Facebook which showcased all my new hobbies that I was enjoying. She told me she was projecting her unhappiness onto me etc, had started therapy and wanted to come home. She moved back to my state and we started over. We eventually split for good because there was simply too much damage to overcome. But the concepts taught here, to give your W lots of time and space (don't accept those dinner invites!) to wonder about, and miss me, absolutely worked.

And I have taught these same principles to several of my friends who are not a part of this forum, and they have also (not all) had success.

Keep an open mind and remember that all of this stuff is counter-intuitive. It defies logic and reasoning.

Lastly, you might not believe it, but everyone here is here to help you avoid the mistakes they have made (I've literally seen hundreds if not a thousand of these things play out over the years). We want to see a win on this forum. All of us provide this advice and offer our time for free, so when someone comes across as unagreeable/maybe a little pompous, it's easy to see why some of us would get defensive.

I would love nothing more than to see you and your W happily back together.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 08:48 PM
Hi McRamone,

We all have different communication styles. I use different styles in different circumstances. I have used your style with great success with my X wife to stir up her anger and get the truth out of her. Not the best idea if I was attempting to repair the marriage (or the relationship for that matter).


Originally Posted by McRamone
I guess the only thing I didn't acknowledge is that I have been lurking here for a while. The forum is public.
I believe you have when you made this statement:
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’ve spent time reading a lot of stories on this place


Originally Posted by McRamone
I thought this would be a good place for me to vent and seek advice on how to get things back on track.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I thought this place would offer me a space to talk through things and vent on what was happening.
I believe there is a balance between these two.




With all the time you have spent here reading, is there any changes to your behavior that you believe has a chance in attracting W back?
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: New Here _2 - 11/30/21 11:52 PM
Do you spend 24/7 in arrogant ( your words, not mine) defensive lawyer mode?
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Do you spend 24/7 in arrogant ( your words, not mine) defensive lawyer mode?
Do you spend 24/7 in sad divorcee mode? Im betting no. Because I judge you by more than 3 posts. You seem pretty bitter though.

Btw. I never said I was arrogant I was accused of it. It was LH’s. Please if you are going to try to bust my chops. Be accurate
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 04:58 AM
I’m just gonna be blunt here, and I’m sure you ignore it as usual.

You’re a lawyer who said every lawyer is arrogant.

The fact you went after Ginger and yet ignored people attempting to be sympathetic towards you should probably give you a hint why everything happened.

Is this how you talked to your wife? Or are strangers on a support forum special? I’m curious how you treat people you feel comfortable with. If this is just a taste, I gotta say, you’re not a LBS.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by McRamone
[quote=Ginger1
Do you spend 24/7 in sad divorcee mode? Im betting no. Because I judge you by more than 3 posts. You seem pretty bitter though.

If you did not judge Ginger by just 3 of her posts, you would know that she spends most of her time in supermom mode being an awesome single mom and a lot of her time in superhero mode helping others in the front lines of the COVID pandemic
Posted By: Cadet Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
If you did not judge Ginger by just 3 of her posts, you would know that she spends most of her time in supermom mode being an awesome single mom and a lot of her time in superhero mode helping others in the front lines of the COVID pandemic
Absolutely correct
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Cadet
Originally Posted by MLCxH
If you did not judge Ginger by just 3 of her posts, you would know that she spends most of her time in supermom mode being an awesome single mom and a lot of her time in superhero mode helping others in the front lines of the COVID pandemic
Absolutely correct

Thank you very much much my friends. That really means a lot to me.

I am actually quite friendly with my ex and his wife, my daughter is thriving , and I am at peace. My ex and his wife actually enjoy spending time with me. So I can’t be all that bitter, can I?

You are clearly a very angry man, Mc. And if you talk to your wife the way you do everyone else, no wonder why she wants to run for the hills. But I’m sure you are going to say you don’t treat her like that. Just everyone else. Even if that was remotely true, if she sees the way you treat everyone else, still a reason to run for the hills.

I can’t believe you are real. You can not be a grown adult who treats people the way you do and wonder why your wife left .
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by JosephS
I’m just gonna be blunt here, and I’m sure you ignore it as usual.

You’re a lawyer who said every lawyer is arrogant.

The fact you went after Ginger and yet ignored people attempting to be sympathetic towards you should probably give you a hint why everything happened.

Is this how you talked to your wife? Or are strangers on a support forum special? I’m curious how you treat people you feel comfortable with. If this is just a taste, I gotta say, you’re not a LBS.

Yup, not a LBS. likely his wife is trying to escape emotional abuse
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 01:59 PM
Boy you guys love feeding his agenda.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 03:19 PM
Thread name "New Here".....however been lurking for a longtime. Nothing is adding up.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Just so everyone knows, I'm a following most of the advice
Anything standing out as working?
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
Btw. I never said I was arrogant I was accused of it. It was LH’s.


Originally Posted by LH19
Boy you guys love feeding his agenda.

Pot, meet kettle.....lol
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 05:44 PM
That was before I realized what he's up to.
Posted By: may22 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 08:29 PM
Hey McRamone,

I started this post yesterday before you went after Ginger, and am not sure why I'm still going to post it but since it is already written maybe it will help you or someone else.

Everyone here is truly here to help and has either gone through their own similar, difficult situation or is currently still struggling with it. I recall early on you said you wanted to work on strengthening your empathy muscles-- can you practice that here? I strongly recommend you take what CW has said to heart. Instead of lashing out and putting others down, can you put your emotional response aside and try to listen to what is being said? Is there any kernel of truth? Are there things you might improve upon in how you interact with others such that you can be a better friend, partner, father, colleague?

If it matters, I stopped posting because I was turned off by the things you were saying to others, and TBH it struck a nerve with me. My H also can be arrogant and combative, especially in the years leading up to BD. I did not cheat on him or walk out, but I did cut him off from intimacy and sex, partially because of things to do with me and partially because he was being an @ss, totally full of himself, and not being a good partner. Seeing you write cruel barbs full of disdain to disprove strangers on the internet who are only trying to help really made me think that wow, now I get what your wife is feeling and why she's doing what she's doing.

You also come across as not very respectful of other people, not just here but in your R with your W. The privacy thing is a good example-- you didn't grow up with respecting others' privacy, and she did... but when the time came for you to either respect her wishes or just follow what you've always done, you just did what you wanted without taking her thoughts or feelings into consideration. You shared what your love language is but not hers-- I'm assuming you know it, but through what you're sharing you're focusing on how you didn't get what you needed from the relationship and how that made you respond, not what was happening for your wife and how you were trying to respect and meet her needs.

Getting so upset and lashing out when people are saying you should be prepared for the A to have been physical, for it to still be going on, for this to be a stepping stone to D... that really isn't productive for you. These are all possibilities. I also was totally convinced that my H wasn't having a PA (and before he disclosed the EA, would have sworn backwards and forwards that he wouldn't ever have cheated or lied) and it was Steve who told me to be prepared. I thought, no way, there were all these logical reasons why not... but I was wrong and was really glad, in the end, that I had done the mental preparation. (Thanks Steve!) I also really, really didn't want to S or D but in the end, opening myself up to the reality that my H *did* want to S/D also allowed me to totally let go (and if you've read my story, you might know that it was that final step of me saying GTFO and my H having secured an apartment when he finally saw that there were no barriers to him leaving, and that he actually wanted to stay M). It was all very protracted and painful. I guess I'm just saying all this to say-- I know how you feel and it $ucks. But also, pretending it isn't happening won't get you anywhere. You need to really face reality here and I think this is what many of the posters are/were trying to do in this context. Maybe she isn't having an A-- but you're much better off if you realize it is a possibility (especially as she had one before) and can come to terms with the fact that she may, indeed, be wanting to separate in order to end the M.

The final thing I wanted to say is that most of the posters here do advocate for what MWD calls the last-last resort technique (if I remember that correctly). I questioned that too, in my sitch, and vets said that it is because most of the LBSs that end up here are in that really dire situation where the LLRT is called for. It was not appropriate in my situation and I did not do it. It may not be appropriate in yours, in fact I do think you have the chance to save your M without employing the LLRT. But-- and this is the big but-- the way you do that is through focusing on YOU, not her, or all us jerks here on this board. What can you do differently? What are 180s you can work on for yourself? What kind of person do you want to be? Are you okay being tagged as an arrogant jerk or do you want to be a more empathetic person? If you don't want to be an @ss-- DON'T. Feels like this forum would be a great place for you to practice taking that chip off your shoulder. Your wife needs her space and time to do her own work to determine whether or not she wants to stay married to you. You can't force that process. it is hers and hers alone. Focus on how you can become the best McR you can be and give her the space to find her own path. She needs to choose you, and it can't be forced.

Good luck,
May
Posted By: McRamone Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by may22
Hey McRamone,

I started this post yesterday before you went after Ginger, and am not sure why I'm still going to post it but since it is already written maybe it will help you or someone else.
.

Yet she is free to go after me?

Or the guy who called Galaga a troll when he was talking about saving his hanging father..

I get that you have an online relationship with the people here. It seems it’s ignore their chirps and excuse their behavior. I understand that


Originally Posted by may22
Everyone here is truly here to help and has either gone through their own similar, difficult situation or is currently still struggling with it. I recall early on you said you wanted to work on strengthening your empathy muscles-- can you practice that here? I strongly recommend you take what CW has said to heart. Instead of lashing out and putting others down, can you put your emotional response aside and try to listen to what is being said? Is there any kernel of truth? Are there things you might improve upon in how you interact with others such that you can be a better friend, partner, father, colleague?
.

My online presence is a bit intense but in no way match me IRL.
Not close. I have several close friends going back decades, everyone at work gets along great with me. I’m consistently nominated and win peer awards at my company - you don’t get those being a jerk or arrogant to coworkers. I try to be a fully engaged parent. I was the one that worked every during online school. I’m teaching my oldest to drive, I try to spend meaningful time with my youngest. I do so much for the family. Cook 80% of the meals, grocery shopping, takes kids to school, etc. I’ve ran 8 marathons including qualifying for Boston with my running club. I’ve coached others in the club. I say this not to brag but to highlight you don’t really know me at all. No person can on a forum like this.

You call me arrogant and combative. Two words that no one I knows would describe me. That’s why it’s an insult to me. I work in corporate legal. I make negotiate all the time. You can’t do that being arrogant and combative all the time. It’s always about give and take. Trying to see the other party’s perspective and coming together. I’d been fired a long time ago if I couldn’t do that.

I am confident in what I know, confident in my ability and am willing to engage people to change minds.

Originally Posted by may22
Seeing you write cruel barbs full of disdain to disprove strangers on the internet who are only trying to help really made me think that wow, now I get what your wife is feeling and why she's doing what she's doing.

You also come across as not very respectful of other people, not just here but in your R with your W.
. You have no way of knowing this. Ok. I don’t respect people who won’t get vaxxed or won’t wear masks. In general people who don’t think of others.


Originally Posted by may22
The privacy thing is a good example-- you didn't grow up with respecting others' privacy, and she did... but when the time came for you to either respect her wishes or just follow what you've always done, you just did what you wanted without taking her thoughts or feelings into consideration.


I didn’t detail every interaction on this nor every change. For example, when we were first married she made a comment about me opening her mail. I stopped doing that and haven’t since. There are other things. I started seeing an IC at HER request.

Originally Posted by may22
You shared what your love language is but not hers-- I'm assuming you know it, but through what you're sharing you're focusing on how you didn't get what you needed from the relationship and how that made you respond, not what was happening for your wife and how you were trying to respect and meet her needs.

Getting so upset and lashing out when people are saying you should be prepared for the A to have been physical, for it to still be going on, for this to be a stepping stone to D... that really isn't productive for you.

It’s not productive for people to call my wife a whore and imply the ONLY reason she was moving out was to sleep around. (And yes someone did say this). I ask you is that productive? I think Steve has his own issues and I don’t respect him. So you are right

I disagree that assuming my wife is sleeping around is helpful. It’s actually toxic. Especially for my situation. The constant drumbeat of negativity about a spouse can actually affect how you think and you see everything in a negative light.

I think the people on here are actually obsessed with this fact. But I don’t think you can actually be fully prepared for the truth. My grandma passed away this summer she was 100 years old. By rights I should’ve been prepared for her death yet when it happened I was struck by the grief I had.

But if I ask people to drop that line of thinkimg. I would hope they’d respect that.


Originally Posted by may22
The final thing I wanted to say is that most of the posters here do advocate for what MWD calls the last-last resort technique (if I remember that correctly). I questioned that too, in my sitch, and vets said that it is because most of the LBSs that end up here are in that really dire situation where the LLRT is called for. It was not appropriate in my situation and I did not do it. It may not be appropriate in yours, in fact I do think you have the chance to save your M without employing the LLRT. But-- and this is the big but-- the way you do that is through focusing on YOU, not her, or all us jerks here on this board. What can you do differently? What are 180s you can work on for yourself? What kind of person do you want to be? Are you okay being tagged as an arrogant jerk or do you want to be a more empathetic person? If you don't want to be an @ss-- DON'T. Feels like this forum would be a great place for you to practice taking that chip off your shoulder. Your wife needs her space and time to do her own work to determine whether or not she wants to stay married to you. You can't force that process. it is hers and hers alone. Focus on how you can become the best McR you can be and give her the space to find her own path. She needs to choose you, and it can't be forced.

Good luck,
May


MWD doesn’t advocate jumping to the LRT right away.

Plus the mixed advice makes my head spin.

Don’t got to MC. Do go to MC. Don’t have contact, do have contact. Don’t help her move. Be supportive of the move. Do go over to her place. Don’t go over to her place.



I appreciate your thoughts. Honestly. But I think my situation is so different that I don’t belong here or am not the kind of “LBS” that the forum wants. I never got the DB. I never got the ILYBINILWY.
I never got the rewriting of the marriage see only the negative. I really don’t think people here are equipped or know what to do with that.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 09:40 PM
I didn’t go after anyone . I asked an honest direct question . But you just can’t take a look in the mirror or not attack someone.

You put so much energy into trying to prove people wrong and defending yourself, and barely an ounce looking in the mirror. No sweat off my back. You do you.

FWIW, I imagine you are a fantastic lawyer. You are relentless. Your lines between work and your personal life may be a little blurred. Constructive criticism, not an attack, although I’m 99% sure you’ll take it as one.

I’m done here, no worries. Good luck to you
Posted By: LH19 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 09:45 PM
Keep feeding the beast.
Posted By: may22 Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 10:26 PM
Hi McRamone,

I don't know you and I'm truly not claiming to-- I'm just sharing what I have observed through this forum. Maybe you're the perfect husband and father and colleague IRL and just arrogant and combative online, and your wife is just going through something that has nothing to do with you. That could be. I was just asking you questions for you to consider for yourself. This is all internal work that needs to be done, whether you belong here or not, whether your W is truly on her way out or simply taking a break and focusing on herself. I do think it is important for everyone in the LBS position to be honest with themselves about what is happening and focus on their own healing (and ideally growth).

Also, IMHO you didn't actually consider any of the questions I posed to you but instead picked on all the things you disagree with whether I wrote them to you or someone else did. It would be frustrating if I cared. I can imagine arguing with you as a spouse would be exhausting. I do have a different perspective than some others here and am not trying to defend their specific advice.

In the end, the facts remain that your W had an affair and moved out because she's so angry with you. Is that right? I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to understand why you're so resistant to seeing any similarities between your own situation and that of others. For me, knowing that there were others going through what I was going through was incredibly helpful.

Best of luck,
May
Posted By: JosephS Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 10:36 PM
Eh’…at this point if you think you’re proving a point you’re not. In regards to that one guy…you know it’s me. I’ve posted in your thread multiple times, but for some really weird reason unless it’s LH you seem to only go after the woman who post on your thread. Weird right?

Again, I’ve apologized to Galaga but that doesn’t seem to be enough for you. Is that maybe a common theme in your life? You’re always the victim? Never do or say anything wrong? Don’t know how to forgive? Only respond to woman who have strong opinions?

Funny, when I told my story, I got frustrated, emotional, but didn’t argue every single chance and did come to understand why people thought maybe some of what I was saying wasn’t true. And I came to respect these people for their honesty, bluntness and helpfulness. Does it mean I was wrong and lied, of course not. But we don’t know each other from a hole in the wall. So when some posters are getting out of hand…I.e wanting to die, or an obvious drinking issue it’s gonna get called out. Some people are just better at wording things sympathetically than others. CW is the master of that.

For you, you want to argue, you want to always be right, you can’t take criticism.

I’m with LH now, if others wanna respond feel free, but I’m gonna head on out of this situation. If it’s real, and that’s a big if, something tells me Gingers spot on.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: New Here _2 - 12/01/21 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by McRamone
MWD doesn’t advocate jumping to the LRT right away.
Correct. There is so much more to do before going down the LRT path.

Quote
The mixed advice makes my head spin. Don’t got to MC. Do go to MC. Don’t have contact, do have contact. Don’t help her move. Be supportive of the move. Do go over to her place. Don’t go over to her place.
You have to remember that this forum is for brainstorming new ways of interacting with your spouse. Evaluating all the options and making choices is part of the process. Each option has worked for other in the past as well as each option hasn't worked for others in the past. Making 180's in certain behaviors makes the most sense for me. Albert Einstein : “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”


Quote
I think my situation is so different that I don’t belong here or am not the kind of “LBS” that the forum wants.
Your situation is definitely different than mine, but I believe your story has the potential of helping someone. It definitely helps me. Your posts make me think and challenge my current beliefs.

For example, when you used the word "whore" in reference to your wife, I felt like you picked the wrong word. I know words have different meanings to different people, but I lean towards the dictionary definition.


Quote
I never got the DB. I never got the ILYBINILWY. I never got the rewriting of the marriage see only the negative. I really don’t think people here are equipped or know what to do with that.
Hopefully you are one of the lucky ones and she just needs a break.
Posted By: DonH Re: New Here _2 - 12/02/21 12:34 AM
I’m with LH on this one. But will add, why don’t we all just wake up and see the fact that Ramone is way smarter than we are. He knows way more, he’s sharper than we will ever be. I mean just admit it to him. Never mind he’s driven his marriage off into the ditch - or at least was a passenger and could have done something different. He doesn’t need nor want our help. He’s right and everyone else is wrong. He’s a right fighter who’d rather be right than be happy. What I don’t get is why even bother with the likes of us? We are of no use, provide bad advice, only attack you. Yet you’re still here interacting with us - as your wife continues running for the hills. And I’m back to agreeing with LH. Best of luck to you.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: New Here _2 - 12/02/21 09:08 AM
Reminds me of a quote from the movie Fight Club - “ You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else”
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