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Posted By: detachA Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 12:27 PM
Old thread here


https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2925897&page=9
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Just throwing this out there, for all the good feedback. Im thinking of asking her if she would be interested in attending a DB coach. Im thinking about doing it in this manner.

Time after kids are in bed (I find this a better time to ask questions). Wait till she approaches me about something, not me initiating the comms. Use a soft startup

M: I have been attending MC for three months now. I feel it has been really helping me to individually work through some of the issues in our relationship. In my opinion it has been well worthwhile for my own sanity and to understand my role in what is happening.
I would like to ask you if you would also be interested in attending MC either on your own or with me.
I think initially it would be better to attend on your own. I would be happy to pick up the cost of it. You do not have to answer me know, just have a think about it.


If she immediatly says No, I will not push matter. I will just say “Ok, I will continue to go myself and if you change your mind at a later date please just let me know.

The i will stop the conversation.

Is this a really bad idea?

Before I can answer this I need to ask you a question:

Do you know for sure she is ready to work on the marriage? Last time I asked that you said you were still confused.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
[quote=LH19]So Scared I am just going to throw this are there regarding some of the facts of the case.

Your W is physically abusive to you and your children, neglects your children, it addicted to social media, sleeps with other dudes and tells you about it and it is so bad you basically went a year without talking to her. What exactly are you trying to save?

Google search: Rejection breeds obsession

I will look up rejection breeds obsession.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Also good question, what am I trying to save? Firstly, my family. I know that my kids will be devastated by a divorce.
Your kids will be upset at first but will soon learn to adjust. If mom and you are fine then they will be fine.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I am pretty sure that the oldest will want to be with me and the youngest with her.
Just because the kids may want that arrangement doesn't mean that is what will happen. 50/50 custody is optimal.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Deep down I really do love her, but I do not want the relationship we had back.
If you really love her then why don't you give her what she wants and give her the divorce she is asking for?
Originally Posted by scaredA
I want things to be more open and understanding. I really want us to be a family.

So that takes two people willing to accomplish these goals. So right now is this a fantasy or a reality.
Originally Posted by scaredA
When times were better, she was a very good mother. I have treated/neglected her very badly.
The good thing is you are aware of this and are making changes for a future relationship with her or somebody else.
Originally Posted by scaredA
There is no excuse for her affair, but I can understand how things have developed the way they are.
There is no excuse for her affairs or being physically and mentally abusive to you and your children.
Originally Posted by scaredA
When we met we were crazy about each other. My job finished and I left her country, we couldn't be together for eight months. My mother was dead set against her, as she was from a lower income country. We fought all of this, together, until we were eventually reunited and got married.
Mothers often know best.
Originally Posted by scaredA
I really just want my family back. It is very hard at the moment. I have put in a cut off date, this cannot go on forever!
Scared we all came here trying to keep our family together. Most were not able but have moved on to happy healthy lifes. What's important is for you to become the best person you can be for you and your children. Everything else will work itself out. One day after doing all the work necessary you will understand that you will have zero tolerance for affairs and abuse. It's a process and a journey you must go on.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Before I can answer this I need to ask you a question:

Do you know for sure she is ready to work on the marriage? Last time I asked that you said you were still confused.

Im still confused, so I know your answer! Is there any harm in gauging her feeling towards going potentially in the future?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Before I can answer this I need to ask you a question:

Do you know for sure she is ready to work on the marriage? Last time I asked that you said you were still confused.

Im still confused, so I know your answer! Is there any harm in gauging her feeling towards going potentially in the future?
What do you have in mind?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Before I can answer this I need to ask you a question:

Do you know for sure she is ready to work on the marriage? Last time I asked that you said you were still confused.

Im still confused, so I know your answer! Is there any harm in gauging her feeling towards going potentially in the future?

A) It doesn't matter. If and when the time comes whether you gauged it now or not will have no bearing on whether she goes or not.

B) Believe nothing she says......so even if she says "sure I'd be open to it" it is meaningless because you cannot believe a word she says. #1 rule of dealing with lying cheaters is to not believe what comes out of their mouths.

C) It is nearly impossible to ask a question like this without hopes and expectations. Which breaks the "drop expectations" principle.

It is all downside and no upside. Stop focusing on her and what she may or may not do.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 04:20 PM
Ok I took the advice. Didnt bother asking her
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Ok I took the advice. Didnt bother asking her

SA, your fear of an unknown future is why you feel the need to do things like "gauge whether she is open to future counseling". That is your unsettled mind searching for assurance in the future. And causing you do do something you are better off not doing.

Your instincts will fail you in DBing. Always compare any potential action against DBing principles, and then make a decision based on that.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/02/21 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Just throwing this out there, for all the good feedback. Im thinking of asking her if she would be interested in attending a DB coach. Im thinking about doing it in this manner.

Your focus is on the wrong person. Set her free. She needs to feel like she made a mistake and has lost you before she is willing to do any work on the relationship.

IF she comes begging you to take her back, she will ask what would it take. You let her know it is her job to list out what she is willing to do to get you back. When she shares her list, you let her know you will think about it.

Even that is putting the cart before the horse. Focus on positive changes to your behavior and the way you interact with everyone. Make your goals in all areas that you have full control over. You are not in control of her. She has her own work to do.

Read this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984
Posted By: may22 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 02:08 AM
Hi SA,

I completely agree with the others about not inviting her to speak to a DB coach. I did this, actually, and my H had a session with her. I don't think it was helpful. In fact, I'm kind of embarrassed about it now. I would strongly recommend against it.

The fact that you're asking about that tells me that you're still looking for a solution-- if I only do X then she'll turn back to the M and we'll be on track again. That is a cheeseless tunnel. My advice is that every time an idea strikes of something "to do" sit with it (like you did with this idea-- congrats!) and really parse out for yourself-- is this in any way pursuit? Does this in any way try to get a response out of my W (=control)?

The 180s are for you, not for her. To be a better person/father/potential partner in the future. Moving away from the stonewalling/critical version of SA sounds like a great thing. The tiptoeing around and walking on glass, not really a 180.

I totally get the desire to fight for your M b/c of your kids. I don't think that DBing is walking away, necessarily, though it may take that form for some. It is giving your M the best chance it has to succeed. You have your cut-off date-- great! I know others may disagree, but I actually do think that you've seen progress with your W and to me that means keep up the DBing-- don't compromise all your progress by trying to get her in MC before she's ready, starting up the pursuit too soon, trying to manipulate her into doing certain things, etc. Take all that energy and refocus it on yourself and your kids. I'd also recommend keeping a close eye on your boundaries-- this is especially important when you still live together. Take time and energy to be sure you're protecting yourself emotionally through all of this. It is hard.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 07:18 AM
Quick update. I decided against asking her to go to MC. When I got home, I spoke to my boys went upstairs to my room and started to read my current self help book. One of the guys at work had left his cigarettes and I picked then up to give them to him tomorrow (I stopped smoking many years ago).
After about 30 mins, the wife came into the room. She starting talking about how we need to get someone who can look after them, in the event something happens to both of us, until they can get repatriated. This went on for a bit, the. she started a R talk. I should have shut this down right away, but I let it run. She was fully in negative mode - nothing was ever good, ever! She doesnt want to work on marriage, why do we not separate, she feels nothing for me, doesnt feel there is anything left in the marriage, repeated several incidents that happened over a decade ago. At this point she saw the smokes and started asking if i was smoking. I didnt say anything and she kept going on that I shouldnt do it. She took the smokes with her when she went and asked several times would I stop doing it (btw she smokes).

During the R talk I didnt raise my voice, I stressed I wanted to get my family back. I let her do 60% of the talking and tried to validate and empathise. The R talk ended with her saying she was still “observing”.

I put the kids to bed, she went out for an hour. I made sure I was in bed before she got home.
This morning when I got up I saw she had made food for today when she came home and let it cooking in the slow cooker overnight

Tonight Im gonna take my oldest to his soccer practice then go to my room when I get back, not start any conversation at all, if she approaches I will be kind, generous and brief.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Before I can answer this I need to ask you a question:

Do you know for sure she is ready to work on the marriage? Last time I asked that you said you were still confused.

Im still confused, so I know your answer! Is there any harm in gauging her feeling towards going potentially in the future?

A) It doesn't matter. If and when the time comes whether you gauged it now or not will have no bearing on whether she goes or not.

B) Believe nothing she says......so even if she says "sure I'd be open to it" it is meaningless because you cannot believe a word she says. #1 rule of dealing with lying cheaters is to not believe what comes out of their mouths.

C) It is nearly impossible to ask a question like this without hopes and expectations. Which breaks the "drop expectations" principle.

It is all downside and no upside. Stop focusing on her and what she may or may not do.

Thanks Steve this post helped me a lot. It would have been a right mess if I had have asked. I need help on this forums to try and stay focused.

Appreciate it!
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 07:31 AM
May, Thankyou for this post. It really helped me a lot. I am happy that you think there is some improvment, no matter how small, it really helps me to have some small goals to aim at. I get a lot of great advice on these forums, but sometimes I feel it is all geared towards, “Hurry up and get the divorce, you are only postponing the inevitable”. Thankyou again.


Originally Posted by may22
Hi SA,

I completely agree with the others about not inviting her to speak to a DB coach. I did this, actually, and my H had a session with her. I don't think it was helpful. In fact, I'm kind of embarrassed about it now. I would strongly recommend against it.

The fact that you're asking about that tells me that you're still looking for a solution-- if I only do X then she'll turn back to the M and we'll be on track again. That is a cheeseless tunnel. My advice is that every time an idea strikes of something "to do" sit with it (like you did with this idea-- congrats!) and really parse out for yourself-- is this in any way pursuit? Does this in any way try to get a response out of my W (=control)?[\quote]

Thanks, I am starting to realise this is a marathon. I dont need to respond immediately to everything.

[quote=may22]The 180s are for you, not for her. To be a better person/father/potential partner in the future. Moving away from the stonewalling/critical version of SA sounds like a great thing. The tiptoeing around and walking on glass, not really a 180.

Im struggling with the balance of not initiating conversation and appearing to be stonewalling again, as I did that for so long and I dont want to appear to be doing more of the same. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by may22
I totally get the desire to fight for your M b/c of your kids. I don't think that DBing is walking away, necessarily, though it may take that form for some. It is giving your M the best chance it has to succeed. You have your cut-off date-- great! I know others may disagree, but I actually do think that you've seen progress with your W and to me that means keep up the DBing-- don't compromise all your progress by trying to get her in MC before she's ready, starting up the pursuit too soon, trying to manipulate her into doing certain things, etc. Take all that energy and refocus it on yourself and your kids. I'd also recommend keeping a close eye on your boundaries-- this is especially important when you still live together. Take time and energy to be sure you're protecting yourself emotionally through all of this. It is hard.

Im really struggling with defining boundaries. One of them is that I wont listen to her disrespecting my family. She did it a few times during last nights talk. I said I wont listen to that and said I would leave if she continued. I should have been more forceful.
It raised my spirits that you feel some progress has been made. I also think some very small baby steps have occured. Three months ago we had zero communication except arguments. You are right, I need to focus on the changes that have occured and remember theat DBing achieved these and so I should keep at it.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by scaredA
Just throwing this out there, for all the good feedback. Im thinking of asking her if she would be interested in attending a DB coach. Im thinking about doing it in this manner.

Your focus is on the wrong person. Set her free. She needs to feel like she made a mistake and has lost you before she is willing to do any work on the relationship.

IF she comes begging you to take her back, she will ask what would it take. You let her know it is her job to list out what she is willing to do to get you back. When she shares her list, you let her know you will think about it.

Even that is putting the cart before the horse. Focus on positive changes to your behavior and the way you interact with everyone. Make your goals in all areas that you have full control over. You are not in control of her. She has her own work to do.

Read this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984

R2C, your advice is spot on as always. Im reading the thread you linked and it is invaluable. I think I have been slipping from DBing recently. I think the initial softening I have seen is all down to DBing and her more recent distancing is due to me starting more R talk, or letting her start R talk. I will go back to being more distant, but talk if she initiates the conversation
Posted By: Mumin Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 09:43 AM
Quote
Im struggling with the balance of not initiating conversation and appearing to be stonewalling again, as I did that for so long and I dont want to appear to be doing more of the same. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Validation

Have you read all threads on validation?
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Mumin
Quote
Im struggling with the balance of not initiating conversation and appearing to be stonewalling again, as I did that for so long and I dont want to appear to be doing more of the same. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Validation

Have you read all threads on validation?

So are you saying I should let her initiate conversation. When she does just validate and listen. Let her do all the talking. Should I bring it to a close? Or let her go on as long as she likes?

I read the validating statements thread. Is there other ones?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
I get a lot of great advice on these forums, but sometimes I feel it is all geared towards, “Hurry up and get the divorce, you are only postponing the inevitable”.
Scared not one person has said to hurry up and divorce. People are telling you to have zero expectations and to make changes for you. This is where you are not there yet. You have a cut-off date which is very reasonable time-line.

Originally Posted by may22
The fact that you're asking about that tells me that you're still looking for a solution-- if I only do X then she'll turn back to the M and we'll be on track again. That is a cheeseless tunnel. My advice is that every time an idea strikes of something "to do" sit with it (like you did with this idea-- congrats!) and really parse out for yourself-- is this in any way pursuit? Does this in any way try to get a response out of my W
You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I'm really struggling with defining boundaries. One of them is that I wont listen to her disrespecting my family. She did it a few times during last nights talk. I said I wont listen to that and said I would leave if she continued. I should have been more forceful.
Unfortunately without clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need you will struggle mightily. That's what people respond too and being soft with a wayward tends to make them walk all over you.
Originally Posted by scaredA
It raised my spirits that you feel some progress has been made. I also think some very small baby steps have occurred. Three months ago we had zero communication except arguments. You are right, I need to focus on the changes that have occurred and remember that DBing achieved these and so I should keep at it.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
So are you saying I should let her initiate conversation.
Yes
Originally Posted by scaredA
When she does just validate and listen.
This is where it gets tricky. First off it is my opinion that you never validate bs or $hitty behavior. Some here disagree. If you are not good at validation it it can come off as condescending. I have a friend who if I say "you sound frustrated is that how you feel?" flips her $hit on me. Personally I am not a fan of validating waywards but that is just me. Best to keep it simple with "I understand that's how you feel" but you also don't want to sound like a robot. Practice on your kids, friends and co-workers.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Let her do all the talking.
I'd say 80-20.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Should I bring it to a close?
Yes because you are busy leading a kick a$$ life and have to run.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Or let her go on as long as she likes?
See above
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by Mumin
Quote
Im struggling with the balance of not initiating conversation and appearing to be stonewalling again, as I did that for so long and I dont want to appear to be doing more of the same. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Validation

Have you read all threads on validation?

So are you saying I should let her initiate conversation. When she does just validate and listen. Let her do all the talking. Should I bring it to a close? Or let her go on as long as she likes?

I read the validating statements thread. Is there other ones?

I am a big fan of the LBS being so busy that they have to be the one to end the discussion. After listening and validating for a bit "I have to be some where." And then going and GAL.

Most LBS do not do GAL well enough to do this.
Posted By: JosephS Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 02:00 PM
Just my 2 cents

You can validate if she has a tough day with topics that aren’t related to the relationship. But I wouldn’t validate her saying it’s over, I feel nothing for you etc etc etc. however personally I wouldn’t respond. If you say “I’m sorry you feel that way” how does that sound?

Don’t initiate relationship talks right now. If she does feel free to listen, but have absolutely no expectations positive or negative.

As many have pointed out, go out and do something fun. Find a hobby. Take the kids out with or without her. Going out twice a month isn’t getting a life. Don’t do it to manipulate the situation either. Do it for you because you want to have fun. Sitting around to see if she’s going to come around is enemy number 1 to your mental heath.

You can’t control her anymore than she can control you. You can’t make her stay in a marriage. You can’t force her to do anything. You can’t manipulate the situation. And manipulation takes on many different masks. Accept what’s in your power and that’s you. You control your reactions, decisions, and what you find acceptable and what you are willing to tolerate.

Again just my two cents
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 02:18 PM
SA, remember validation is understanding her feelings....it isn't agreeing with what she is saying.

W: "You were being abusive when you would stonewall me."
You: "That must have been tough for you to have felt that way."

Doesn't corroborate her accusation, just validates the way she felt.

Lots of people get this wrong about validation. Read the validation thread. Study it. Practice on your own.

What you never validate is disrespectful behavior. So if she starts screaming at you that you are a jerk, idiot, or other names. You do not validate that, you stand up for yourself: "I refuse to be spoken to in this manner." then walkaway.
Posted By: JosephS Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 02:34 PM
I agree with Steve above, but with that said, so many people (heck including myself) are so bad at validation that you can land yourself in hotter water attempting too. I agree with I believe it was LH who said try it with others before your wife. Steve’s response above is perfect, and yet could be twisted into sarcasm, or you could be accused of blowing off her feelings. Heck, I can see someone who really wants to ensure everything is your fault, say I didn’t feel that way, that’s how it was.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by JosephS
I agree with Steve above, but with that said, so many people (heck including myself) are so bad at validation that you can land yourself in hotter water attempting too. I agree with I believe it was LH who said try it with others before your wife. Steve’s response above is perfect, and yet could be twisted into sarcasm, or you could be accused of blowing off her feelings. Heck, I can see someone who really wants to ensure everything is your fault, say I didn’t feel that way, that’s how it was.
Yep it was me. What Steve said could be considered condescending depending on their relationship dynamic. I know Sandi wasn't a big fan of validating waywards.

KISS comes into play here. "I understand that's how you felt".
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by JosephS
I agree with Steve above, but with that said, so many people (heck including myself) are so bad at validation that you can land yourself in hotter water attempting too. I agree with I believe it was LH who said try it with others before your wife. Steve’s response above is perfect, and yet could be twisted into sarcasm, or you could be accused of blowing off her feelings. Heck, I can see someone who really wants to ensure everything is your fault, say I didn’t feel that way, that’s how it was.

Yeah you have to certainly be good at the delivery of validation lines. I think you raise an outstanding point about that. Something we do not discuss often enough. It has to be genuine or it will come across as sarcastic or even condescending. Neither of which are good.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:16 PM
So I read the thread R2C posted earlier with all the good snippets of advice. I think I have had some kindof epihany, I havent felt so happy in ages.

I realise that what I think has been DB, recently, has been more whingy and needy BS. I have tried detaching today. She called me at work and I didnt pick up. I went home tonight, had a bit of a laugh with my eldest when I got in the house. Then went upstairs and changed without saying anything. I came down and started cleaning the kitchen. She eventually came in and asked could we change to my son goes to the tutor. I said I dont know, you need to ask the tutor. Then i just stopped the conversation. Ive taken my eldest to soccer practice now, and will put him to bed then go to my room when I get home.

Im very angry with myself that she cheated and I have been the one pussyfooting around.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:18 PM
Also any ideas I get, like last nights MC idea, im gonna float here and see the response first before actioning anything
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:31 PM
Gal

Today - Taking eldset son to football, Walking around running track while he plays and listening to a self help book, Working on my solution orientated goals
Tomorrow - Going shopping for new clothes for the BBQ. Im gonna have a blast there and meet some new people,Watching tv with the boys
Friday - Going for a 5 k run, Taking the boys out for breakfast with my friend,Going out with a work colleague and his wife in the evening for dinner and drinks
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:48 PM
Yes, validation and active listening take practice.

Validation is about recognizing and acknowledging her feelings. Active listening is about repeating back what you heard in your own words which shows understanding. Neither is about agreeing nor being agreeable. They are both good skills to practice on as many people as you can.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
I decided against asking her to go to MC.
Props. You are listening and making some positive changes.

Originally Posted by Scared
I should have shut this down right away, but I let it run.
Sounds like controlling behavior. Let it go.

Originally Posted by Steve
I am a big fan of the LBS being so busy that they have to be the one to end the discussion. After listening and validating for a bit "I have to be some where." And then going and GAL.
Yes, that's the best answer!!

Originally Posted by ScaredA
She starting talking about how we need to get someone who can look after them, in the event something happens to both of us, until they can get repatriated. This went on for a bit,
Cool. "I get being worried about the kids if something should happen to both of us. So, your plan would be to.. " <Validation + Active Listening>

Originally Posted by scaredA
the. she started a R talk. I should have shut this down right away, but I let it run.
No, that's your controlling side again. You should not shut her down.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
She was fully in negative mode - nothing was ever good, ever! She doesnt want to work on marriage,
"You do sound upset. I understand you don't want to work on the marriage."

Originally Posted by scaredA
why do we not separate,
There's that WE again. It's often an implicit attempt to control. Whenever you or she deploy WE when you're not on the same page, try to break it down into YOU and I. "Why are you staying?" (Again, if she cites obstacles such as needing your approval, be clear to remove them without doing leg work.) If you've never stated why you're staying before, this could also be an opportunity to insert "I'm staying because I love you and want to be married to you."

Originally Posted by ScaredA
At this point she saw the smokes and started asking if i was smoking. I didnt say anything and she kept going on that I shouldnt do it. She took the smokes with her when she went and asked several times would I stop doing it (btw she smokes).
Strange interaction. "No, I'm not smoking."

Originally Posted by ScaredA
During the R talk I didnt raise my voice, I stressed I wanted to get my family back. I let her do 60% of the talking and tried to validate and empathise.
I like LH's goal to go from 40% of the talking to 20% of the talking.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
The R talk ended with her saying she was still “observing”.
That's not a TERRIBLE outcome. It sounds like you did not lash out at her, break down crying, or spend hours trying to persuade her. Keep working at it. (:
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Ive taken my eldest to soccer practice now, and will put him to bed then go to my room when I get home.
How about getting dressed up and going out?
Posted By: BL42 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Gal

Today - Taking eldset son to football, Walking around running track while he plays and listening to a self help book, Working on my solution orientated goals
Tomorrow - Going shopping for new clothes for the BBQ. Im gonna have a blast there and meet some new people,Watching tv with the boys
Friday - Going for a 5 k run, Taking the boys out for breakfast with my friend,Going out with a work colleague and his wife in the evening for dinner and drinks
Great GAL! Love the multitasking today (son's football game, exercise, and self help). Easier to fit a lot in when you have it planned out. Still a little unsure about this BBQ...might be better to do something without W? But like the new clothes and meeting people and not hanging on her attitude.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by ScaredA
During the R talk I didnt raise my voice, I stressed I wanted to get my family back. I let her do 60% of the talking and tried to validate and empathise.
I like LH's goal to go from 40% of the talking to 20% of the talking.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
The R talk ended with her saying she was still “observing”.
That's not a TERRIBLE outcome. It sounds like you did not lash out at her, break down crying, or spend hours trying to persuade her. Keep working at it. (:
Agreed the outcome wasn't terrible. Good you kept your cool. Agree w/LH on CW on reducing your talking.

The "observing" comment from your W comes off as condensing to me. SHE's the one having an AFFAIR and she needs to observe YOU?!? You need to flip your attitude around so that you're the prize and she's lucky if YOU take HER back.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
Im very angry with myself that she cheated and I have been the one pussyfooting around.
Yep. See my comment above.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 04:05 PM
The "observing" comment is manipulation to get you to jump through hoops like a circus monkey.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 04:07 PM
SA, the emotional rollercoaster is real. I vacillated between anger, fear, panic, sadness, even some "woe is me" thrown in for good measure. So you are angry now, but be aware of will change many times over time.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
Great GAL! Love the multitasking today (son's football game, exercise, and self help). Easier to fit a lot in when you have it planned out. Still a little unsure about this BBQ...might be better to do something without W? But like the new clothes and meeting people and not hanging on her attitude.

She may still cancel us going to the BBQ. If she does Im going to say “great cause I was double booked”, the. wear my new clothes and go out.
If she doesnt im going to go with her, ask her to introduce me to the host, the say she you later and not talk to her again until we leave.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
The "observing" comment is manipulation to get you to jump through hoops like a circus monkey.

You are right, so she can “observe” how busy im gonna be this weekend!
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
SA, the emotional rollercoaster is real. I vacillated between anger, fear, panic, sadness, even some "woe is me" thrown in for good measure. So you are angry now, but be aware of will change many times over time.

Thanks Steve I appreciate your support and advice. If promised myself Im gonna scream and cry in the shower. Not in front of her.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by ScaredA
If she doesnt im going to go with her, ask her to introduce me to the host, the say she you later and not talk to her again until we leave.
Have fun at the BBQ! Consider taking another step back from controlling the experience--at the beginning, let her introduce you to whomever she wants to, politely excuse yourself to use the restroom or get some food, then focus on others. See her again whenever you see her again whether that turns out to be "sooner" or "later".
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by ScaredA
If she doesnt im going to go with her, ask her to introduce me to the host, the say she you later and not talk to her again until we leave.
Have fun at the BBQ! Consider taking another step back from controlling the experience--at the beginning, let her introduce you to whomever she wants to, politely excuse yourself to use the restroom or get some food, then focus on others. See her again whenever you see her again whether that turns out to be "sooner" or "later".


I like it. Much more subtle than my method.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
She may still cancel us going to the BBQ. If she does Im going to say “great cause I was double booked”, then wear my new clothes and go out.
Enthusiastically say "Perfect!" with a twinkle in your eye then STFU and leave. That is plan B.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Have fun at the BBQ! Consider taking another step back from controlling the experience--at the beginning, let her introduce you to whomever she wants to, politely excuse yourself to use the restroom or get some food, then focus on others. See her again whenever you see her again whether that turns out to be "sooner" or "later".
This is plan A.


There is an art to breaking away. Do not do it too soon. Do not wait too long. You definitely want to do it before she does. A good time is when it is just you her and one other person. As long as you are actively in the covo, stay. Once the convo goes to just the two of them talking back and forth without you, excuse yourself to the restroom.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/03/21 06:54 PM
I know this has been said before, but bears repeating-- validating is about FEELINGS, not behavior. And I think it comes across as condescending when the person trying to validate is just saying the words and doesn't actually give a $hit. People can tell. Try to put your own ego aside and be actually curious about what the other person is saying.

Even if what you're getting from your S is "I want a D"-- okay! I know it helped me a lot when I went from hearing my H say he wanted to (maybe) move out and in my head just furiously composing all the reasons why that was a stupid idea for the kids or whatever to setting myself aside and just really listening and realizing-- this is truly how he feels and I needed to actually understand and accept that. It helped me tremendously towards detaching.

I don't think your responses need to be exploring her feelings and asking leading questions to get her to open up more. I think it can simply be I hear you, I'm listening, I see you as a person rather than the enemy who is trying to break up my family and take my kids away. In my sitch when my H would say things like he was thinking about moving out (and I got past the arguing back phase) I would just say, okay. I understand. I'm not stopping you. It takes the wind out of their sails when you don't argue back. Now I wasn't going to do any of the legwork for him, or pat him on the head and say it was a terrific idea-- if he wanted to move out he was welcome to, but I wasn't going to be an accomplice or make it a mutual decision.

All the GAL sounds good.

The observing comment is condescending. But who cares? Of course she says $hit like that. She's a WS. Don't let it bother you for a single second. Getting up in arms about her being condescending is just continuing to be attached.

My recommendation for you is to simply continue to focus on that which you can control-- YOU-- and recognize and let go of that which you cannot (everything else, but particularly your W). It seems to me a bit like you swung from worrying about every single thing you said to her and tiptoeing around to being kind of rude and cold (I could be totally reading that wrong, if so I apologize) but also still hoping that you acting in this way will cause her to do or think X, Y, or Z. It is still trying to control her behavior and having expectations.

One last little piece of advice-- I would recommend beyond your self-help book to read something totally unrelated to your sitch, or watch a movie, or hang out with friends who don't know what is going on and you can just talk about all sorts of other things-- I think when you let your situation seep through every part of your life, it is exhausting. Carve out something that isn't about improving yourself or your M or whatever. Just relax and BE and remember that everything is going to be okay, no matter what happens, as long as you remember what is important (for me it was focusing on the kids and being the best mom I could be).
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by scaredA
She may still cancel us going to the BBQ. If she does Im going to say “great cause I was double booked”, then wear my new clothes and go out.
Enthusiastically say "Perfect!" with a twinkle in your eye then STFU and leave. That is plan B.

Perfect!
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by scaredA
Have fun at the BBQ! Consider taking another step back from controlling the experience--at the beginning, let her introduce you to whomever she wants to, politely excuse yourself to use the restroom or get some food, then focus on others. See her again whenever you see her again whether that turns out to be "sooner" or "later".
This is plan A.


There is an art to breaking away. Do not do it too soon. Do not wait too long. You definitely want to do it before she does. A good time is when it is just you her and one other person. As long as you are actively in the covo, stay. Once the convo goes to just the two of them talking back and forth without you, excuse yourself to the restroom.

This is a problem for me. I think she may say it as soon as we arrive. She has complained in the past that I do not socialise enough and hang around with her at parties. I might just say it after we get a drink when we arrive. I find it very hard to do small talk. I am reading a book on it this week in preparation.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by may22
I know this has been said before, but bears repeating-- validating is about FEELINGS, not behavior. And I think it comes across as condescending when the person trying to validate is just saying the words and doesn't actually give a $hit. People can tell. Try to put your own ego aside and be actually curious about what the other person is saying.

Even if what you're getting from your S is "I want a D"-- okay! I know it helped me a lot when I went from hearing my H say he wanted to (maybe) move out and in my head just furiously composing all the reasons why that was a stupid idea for the kids or whatever to setting myself aside and just really listening and realizing-- this is truly how he feels and I needed to actually understand and accept that. It helped me tremendously towards detaching.[\quote]

I really need to work on this. I am going to practice on my kids and at work.

[quote=may22]I don't think your responses need to be exploring her feelings and asking leading questions to get her to open up more. I think it can simply be I hear you, I'm listening, I see you as a person rather than the enemy who is trying to break up my family and take my kids away. In my sitch when my H would say things like he was thinking about moving out (and I got past the arguing back phase) I would just say, okay. I understand. I'm not stopping you. It takes the wind out of their sails when you don't argue back. Now I wasn't going to do any of the legwork for him, or pat him on the head and say it was a terrific idea-- if he wanted to move out he was welcome to, but I wasn't going to be an accomplice or make it a mutual decision.

Good advice, she barely mentions the R. I was actually surprised when she brought it up the other night. I will try to do this next time she does bring it up.

Originally Posted by may22
All the GAL sounds good.

Thanks, its hard when you are breaking up inside.

Originally Posted by may22
The observing comment is condescending. But who cares? Of course she says $hit like that. She's a WS. Don't let it bother you for a single second. Getting up in arms about her being condescending is just continuing to be attached.

I actually took it that she doesnt beleive any changes will last as she has seen it all before. But that she wasnt fully closing the door. Maybe im mind reading, but gave me a bit of focus that she maybe a bit curious about my self improvement.

Originally Posted by may22
My recommendation for you is to simply continue to focus on that which you can control-- YOU-- and recognize and let go of that which you cannot (everything else, but particularly your W). It seems to me a bit like you swung from worrying about every single thing you said to her and tiptoeing around to being kind of rude and cold (I could be totally reading that wrong, if so I apologize) but also still hoping that you acting in this way will cause her to do or think X, Y, or Z. It is still trying to control her behavior and having expectations.

Im not being rude or cold. I just havent initiated any conversation for the last two days. Or always picked the phone up when she rings. When she starts talking I am being generous and friendly, but trying the be the one who ends the conversation. For example last night she needed some help with writing a report for her work. I was sitting talking to my eldest at the dinner table. She came back er and started asking my son to help her. I knew she was really asking me via him, but I just kept quiet. My son didnt understand what she was wanting and so after about 5 minutes she of talking to him, she asked me directly. I said no problem and helped her do it, eventually even typing it out on her ipad. She read it said, “perfect” and “thanks”. I asked if she needed any more help, she said no, I said let me know if you do. Then I stood up and went upstairs.

Originally Posted by may22
One last little piece of advice-- I would recommend beyond your self-help book to read something totally unrelated to your sitch, or watch a movie, or hang out with friends who don't know what is going on and you can just talk about all sorts of other things-- I think when you let your situation seep through every part of your life, it is exhausting. Carve out something that isn't about improving yourself or your M or whatever. Just relax and BE and remember that everything is going to be okay, no matter what happens, as long as you remember what is important (for me it was focusing on the kids and being the best mom I could be).

Yes I need to do this more. I went to the cinema last weeked and it really relaxed me.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 09:28 AM
Ok, today is the polar opposite of yesterday. I feel like total cr&p. Didnt sleep all night cannot stop thinking about her and OM together, what they did together. I feel in a lot of pain.

Worried I am going to go home and do something I regret, like beg and plead, confront her about OM, etc

Gonna take a lot to hold it together tonight!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 09:41 AM
So scared you have to ask yourself if those actions will get you closer to your goal or further away from your goal.

Begging and pleading NEVER works.

Confrontation without consequences is very weak behavior.

Go for a walk or a run.
Posted By: detachA Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
So scared you have to ask yourself if those actions will get you closer to your goal or further away from your goal.

Begging and pleading NEVER works.

Confrontation without consequences is very weak behavior.

Go for a walk or a run.

Exactly what I needed to hear LH. Thats why I posted here, to get some backup and reassurance.

Cheers!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 11:21 AM
You got it buddy. When you have some time change your fuching screen name. You ain’t Scared of $hit😉
Posted By: BL42 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
You got it buddy. When you have some time change your fuching screen name. You ain’t Scared of $hit😉
Exactly. Flip your current attitude/outlook around.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
Ok, today is the polar opposite of yesterday. I feel like total cr&p. Didnt sleep all night cannot stop thinking about her and OM together, what they did together. I feel in a lot of pain.

Worried I am going to go home and do something I regret, like beg and plead, confront her about OM, etc

Gonna take a lot to hold it together tonight!

This is why I warned you of the emotional roller-coaster being real, and understanding how you will go through so many different emotions over time.

I was not your typical LBS in 2017. I was someone had been through the trenches once already. When my W hit me with "I don't want to be married anymore" after I confronted her with messages between her and her EAP, I made the classic mistakes. Beg, pleaded, cried, made promises, tried reasoning with her. The next day was Christmas Eve and I was depressed and needy, clingy.

On Christmas Day I woke up and things were very close to being normal, with gift exchanges, and calls to relatives. Though still on my mind, it took a backseat to the activities of the holiday.

On the 26th I awoke, sat up, and remember MWD and DBing. I realized the way I had acted on BD and Christmas Eve wasn't going to work. So I went back and read all of MWD's online and email writings. I watched all of her videos. I began to look up similar anti-divorce experts, and began consuming there writings and videos. I started ordering books, mostly ebooks so that I could read them discreetly. And I fell back on how I had approached our 2005 situation and started to get better about putting all of the advice into place. GAL, self-improving, 180ing on bad and unhelpful behavior, and emotional detachment. I even found one book that talked about self-differentiation, which was very similar to emotional detachment. And this book's point was that you have to be a well differentiated individual throughout a relationship in order for that relationship to be successful.

Despite all of that, I still rode the emotional roller-coaster. Some days I woke up resolved that she was making the biggest mistake of her life, that I would go on to a great life, and she would be miserable for letting me go. Some days I woke up convinced that if I played my cards right I could save the marriage and all would be fine. Other days I woke up panicked that my life as I knew it was coming to an end, and in despair about how I could possibly deal with all of the fallout! And still others I would wake up depressed, sad, and woe is me.

And guess what, sometimes those emotions caused me to do things contrary to DB techniques. My WW, who was also a WAW, was very impatient with me starting R talks. I could tell she hated when I would call during my weak moments and temp check her. I got better over time. I had a couple of people I could talk to when I was feeling weak. One was a guy that had gone through a D. He was a huge help to me. I met him on in a divorce support chatroom. He would make time to talk, and just anticipating talking to him would help ease my mind and keep me from starting a R talk with my WW.

So find other resources, this board, a new friend, someone you can trust, etc. That way you are talking to them instead of her. And then LH's suggestion about going for a walk or run is outstanding. I never walked more in my life than I did when I was going through my sitch.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by ScaredA
Didnt sleep all night
I hope you can fit in a nap today! Life feels more complicated when you're sleep-deprived.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by scaredA
I find it very hard to do small talk.
It is a learned skill. Just make it a goal and practice. Body language, eye contact, facial expressions, vocal tones and inflections skills can all be practiced at the same time as well.

Practice while standing in line for a coffee. One good way is looking around and identifying something unique or interesting. It can be as simple as "Those muffins look good....have you tried them?" Or "Those muffins are huge!"

With the staff, they typically ask my name to write on the coffee cup...I ask their name. The next day, I address them by their name....they typically are shocked. They then ask me my name...I tease them.."I told you yesterday"....twinkle in my eye....at some point I remind them...From that point on, they call me by name.



Don't make it complicated. Most of the time I make the conversation all about them. It is their story and I want to know their beliefs. I can listen to their political views. They can be left or right. I don't argue. I don't recommend politics for small talk, but hopefully you get the idea.

You can typically put people into "talker" or "listener" category. Small talk is much easier with your opposite. If you interact with your similar type, you need to shift to the other tye.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:30 PM
I abhor small talk. I find it useless and a waste. I am very pragmatic, even with my words.

What R2C wrote above is correct. Practice it when out and about. Engage strangers, certainly if someone initiates conversation with you, embrace it. Ask questions as that leads to more communication. Be pleasant, present, and sincere.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:42 PM
When other person asks me "What do you do?"

I rattle off a bunch of my hobbies. "Photography, archery,biking,hiking,hunting,fishing,ham radio,I love playing pool,chess..bla bla bla

I intentionally miss interpret the question....most are asking about what do you do for work....
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
I abhor small talk. I find it useless and a waste. I am very pragmatic, even with my words.
You must be a blast at a party lol.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 06:01 PM
R2C what is a ham radio?
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
R2C what is a ham radio?
Facepalm. Ham radio operator since the 80s. wink
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 06:20 PM
Remember, the goal of small talk is to find topics both of you are interested in conversing about. Safe small talk topics at a BBQ include the weather, the food, and how you got invited. E.g., at the Halloween Party I went to this past weekend a fellow was pointing out the Rioja (wine) he brought. I mentioned my Spanish go-to was solera-style Tempranillo and wondered how he got into Riojas. Apparently, he'd visited an underground winery in Spain. He asked if I enjoyed looking at travel photos. I said definitely. I spotted some windmills in the photo and asked if they were taken near La Mancha and it was, he made a reference to Rocinante and we were apparently both aficionados of foreign cultures and travel and began sharing about our experiences. Some conversations last longer, some conversations last shorter, and it's okay to pause between them.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/04/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
R2C what is a ham radio?
It is old guys saying "Can you hear me? I can hear you...." (My attempt at humor)

From national association of amateur radio:
Quote
Amateur Radio (ham radio) is a popular hobby and service that brings people, electronics and communication together. People use ham radio to talk across town, around the world, or even into space, all without the Internet or cell phones. It's fun, social, educational, and can be a lifeline during times of need.

Although Amateur Radio operators get involved for many reasons, they all have in common a basic knowledge of radio technology and operating principles, and pass an examination for the FCC license to operate on radio frequencies known as the "Amateur Bands." These bands are radio frequencies allocated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for use by ham radio operators.

google:
baofeng uv-5r
IC-7300
Software Defined Radio (RSP1A)
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/12/21 03:51 PM
What's the latest Scared?
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/12/21 04:25 PM
Yes! I'm curious how the BBQ went after all the small talk tips from Ready2Change and I. Wherever you are, Mr StopBeingScared, I hope your situation is improving.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/15/21 11:16 AM
scaredA - How's it going? Did you have the BBQ?
Posted By: JosephS Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 11/23/21 06:46 AM
Give us an upstate sir. I know it’s been a while since you logged on, but hoping you check this again and let us know how you are.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Still pretty bad sitch - 01/19/22 05:12 AM
detachA/scaredA - Not sure if you'll see this, but hope you're doing alright. Let us know if you need any support or advice.
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