Divorcebusting.com
Hi all,

I'm new hear after having read Divorce Remedy. My wife told me she doesn't love me anymore and wants to split 4 weeks ago. Been together for 11 years, kids 2 & 4. I'm totally crushed to see our lives and dreams come crashing down.

She's had previous heavy depression episodes before we met, and seemed like she recovered, however postpartum seemed to trigger pretty bad year long depressions both times. We went to couples therapy for 4-5 sessions once she recovered from her last postpartum, 4-5 sessions was a huge awakening and we couldn't believe how good it was going. it was 6-7 months of bliss. Once we finished the couples therapy she decided to see her therapist from before we met, because she felt she still had some lingering depression feelings since the postpartum. Therapist recommended antidepressants and Dr prescribed Lexapro.

The change in personality came fairly quickly, I was kinda confused by what was happening and the sudden change, even if things were better than during the postpartums. Her mood was great, no more anger, but she became an extreme extrovert, high energy, activity craving person. Was fun for a little while since nothing seemed to inspire here during the pregnancies and postpartum. However after a few months, the drinking and going out became a lot more frequent as well as her smoking. More and more it seemed like a mid-life crisis, she started to talk about tattoos (which she never liked before), motorcycle adventures, etc.... this started to raise some flags and i started reading up on SSRI's and came across the tonnes of divorce stories and connection to SSRI's, this gave me extreme anxiety. I started to get really paranoid about her going out and her antidepressant prescription.

She made less and less time for us, every kids free night which would've meant a date for us, became her calling friends looking to go out with them. I really struggled with the sudden change. Her high energy encouraged her to enroll in University courses on top of taking a new position at work which requires 1-2 nights per week of evening presentations and meetings. I was really paranoid and not doing well at this point, her high-energy and projects drained my energy since I was now stuck with the kids. When i confronted her about it, I was faced with the coldest person and response I had ever gotten from a relationship. Her reply was along the lines of "I'm feeling great, this is the real me, you can leave if you don't like it." My reply was along the lines of "this isn't you, your pills are boosting you serotonin and happiness which gives you energy, but this isn't you, its the pills. I feel this new you isn't compatible with the relationship and 2 young kids at home. A personal project or two is great, but this is off the charts." This was a few months ago, I told her I needed to work on myself to fix the anxiety and bring up my energy levels, we'd continue the conversation when I felt better. I really thought about our relationship, our challenges, dreams, experiences, etc.... and after a few weeks I was ready to discuss our plan for fulfilling lives and family life. This is when she dumped the separation on me, says she's been trying to work on it for years, but has no love left and we're better off separating quickly. My reaction was to bring up the SSRI's, the alcohol consumption, etc.... and she blocked it all saying there was nothing left to discuss. Refuses therapy and wants to talk to someone to start the separation. She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her. If anything I think she wishes there was so it'd be easier for me to accept.

I'm trying to follow the steps in the book, but I literally just finished it, so I guess there will be a couple of months before that kicks in. I'm so confused and not sure what I can do, my therapist and Dr tell me she needs to consult help for her drinking while on AD's, but she claims she's doing great and never felt better. I don't understand how someone that was so madly in love with me for so long can suddenly get so turned off and cold that quickly. I have no doubt the medication and alcohol is playing a big part in this, i'm also guilty of not being the best partner the past 6 months due to the anxiety and paranoia, but how can she just forget all the good times and sweep them under the rug in order to avoid the alcohol and AD issue? I feel divorce is the easiest way to get time off from the boring family routine, it'll give her more time for projects and going out for quick and cheap thrills. Almost seems like she's chasing the serotonin and dopamine highs on a regular basis, and can't deal with the periods where the chemicals are balanced.

Any advice or experience with something similar would be soooo appreciated! Thanks for reading!
Hi all,

I’ve just finished Divorce Remedy, my wife dropped the “I don’t love you anymore” 4 weeks ago. I’ve been having a pretty hard time wrapping my head around all this, found this group, and have been hesitating about posting for 2 weeks now.

We’ve been together for 11 years, two girls 2 & 4. Wife had suffered a major depression episode a few years before we met. She’s always been very open and upfront about it from the start. The first years were a whirlwind romance, we were both crazy about each other and really enjoyed life in general. We loved where we were going as a couple and in our careers. We suffered a miscarriage, as expected that was rough on both of us. Wife went through what i’d call a minor depression, but seemed to pull out of it after I proposed and things were looking like they were lining up again. We got pregnant again after a year or so, it was exciting and positive. We bought a house, we decorated and planned everything together, we’d giggle when we’d see other couples arguing at Ikea, we’d just have a great time and get along great.

After girl #1 was born, postpartum hit pretty quick and hard. Things got difficult, the house wasn’t very fun anymore. I had a really hard time understanding how someone could be so angry and sad during such an amazing moment in our lives. I think I built up resentment during this time and lacked understanding, yet tried to remain supportive and split tasks and child duties 50/50. 50/50 never seemed like enough for wife. That first year was incredibly difficult and I struggled wondering if we’d survive through it. At one point, she asked for a break while we were still living together, we barely spoke for 4 weeks. I gave her space and waited patiently. We got over that and things got better after the baby turned 1. We got pregnant again when baby was 18 months, the second pregnancy was very difficult on my wife. The mood swings and anger came back just like during the postpartum. I felt she resented and hated me, however she couldn’t tell me why or what I was doing wrong. I assumed it was hormones and that we’d get through it again when things settled down. Baby 2 hit us like a wrecking ball, the first 5 months were pretty close to hell, no sleep, crying episodes lasting 3-4 hours every night, it drained everything out of us, we were exhausted and struggling to keep everything together. When baby 2 was about 6 months we went on vacation to Florida to meet up with her parents, we took a 3 day vacation between the two of us, on the first night she told me she didn’t think this would work out. Felt she lost herself through the maternity leaves and wasn’t sure if she still loved me. We’re Canadian, so that means one full year off work with pay when you have a baby. She suggested she be the one to take the full maternity leave package since her employer offered full salary compensation, while mine only offered 65%.

I took all this hard, however I remained positive thinking it was postpartum and we’d be strong enough to make it work once things settled down again. Once baby2 turned 1 and the effects of the postpartum seemed to be passing, I pushed for couples therapy. She hesitated saying she thought I just wanted a therapist to side with me and say she was the issue, that comment really hit me hard, I started to think perhaps this was way worse than i thought if she was having those kind of thoughts about my intentions. After a while she agreed, and while in therapy she realized my intentions were genuine, after 2 sessions we were already doing so much better, the house became enjoyable again. This coincided with the beginning of Covid. Throughout all the lockdowns and stress, we still managed to have fun and stay positive. We saw the couples therapist for 5 sessions total and were doing great, so decided to take a break from the sessions. However, my wife felt she still had some lingering depression, so she started to see her therapist from before we were together, she suggested antidepressants, and her Dr prescribed Lexapro.

The change in character was pretty quick at this point, she was in such a good mood right out of bed first thing in the morning, which was never really her thing. After a few months her drinking started to get very noticeably heavier. She always enjoyed a glass of wine or two after work, and the occasional heavier drinking on special occasions and it was always very manageable without too much concern. But it got to the point I started getting worried about it. She was making less time for us, and more plans with her friends to go out drinking while before there were different activities, now it purely seemed to revolve around going out at night with drinks involved. I started to read up on Lexapro and SSRI’s in general, and was shocked to see all the cases relating SSRI’s with divorce. My anxiety and paranoia hit the roof at this point. My character completely changed and I started to doubt my mental well being, I’ve never had anxiety or depression before and I’m 48 now. Perhaps this situation with Covid put me over the top? I became a different person and wasn’t nearly as fun to be around. At the same time, my wife with the new found energy from the SSRI’s enrolled in University courses on top of working full time and also took a new roll at work that involved 2 nights of presentations and meetings, which left me alone with the kids on several evenings and weekends. My resentment started to build up, my energy shot down and I just wasn’t the same person anymore.

The past few months we’ve had several talks about things not going so well, I asked her to take a bit of a break from the courses and evenings working to balance things out a little, and I was faced with the coldest person I’ve ever met, her reply was brutal “this is me, i finally feel great, and i refuse to give up my projects”. I pleaded to keep some projects but let go of some, just so i could also enjoy a hobby and night out on occasion, and she shut that down. I had no idea who I was dealing with at this point, I suggested we take a break from the conversation and come back to it once we cooled down. I took a couple of weeks to really think about where we were and what we’ve been through as well as what I wanted/needed going forward, and realized I was still madly in love with her and wanted to make this work. A few weeks later, I was feeling a lot better and we decided to have the conversation, this is where she hit me with the bomb that she wanted a divorce, this was the new her and she didn’t see how we could work things out. She claimed we’ve been struggling for 5 years and refused to acknowledge the difference between the postpartum and the antidepressants period. Completely ignoring the amazing time we shared before the kids and after therapy, pre-medication. She stuck to her guns and kept saying this is the best she’s ever felt and I should leave if I don’t like it. I retorted with saying, this isn’t you, its the medication that’s making you happy, but you’re just ignoring any issues around you and giving up on an 11 year relationship with two amazing daughters. She refuses to consider perhaps the antidepressants are altering her feelings like thousands of online articles claim.

I’m totally stuck here and at a loss. I just don’t see how someone can abandon a family and all the dreams we had in such a short period. She refuses to speak to a therapist or make any changes. Any advice or experience with SSRI’s and antidepressants would be incredibly helpful. Thanks for reading!
Welcome! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you. Also, please stick to one thread until you've 100 postings/replies. I have merged your two threads together.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to play the long game.

Most LBS's panic and analyze every utterance their WAS makes, analyzes everything they do and beat themselves up for any action or vocalization that wasn't perfect.

Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.

As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.

If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?

Can you see why if you address their past complaints *now* it just makes them angrier at you?

The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your daughter, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.

If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.
Sorry you find yourself here, Costanza.

We can all certainly relate to everything you are going through. A lot of this stuff is very predictable and usually follows a similar pattern.

LH absolutely nailed it. Read his post over and over again and let it sink in.

I would also caution you that if your wife is out drinking and going to new classes etc, she might have her eye on another man. Prepare yourself mentally for this.

This will be one of the hardest things you go through but you can and will survive and even come out stronger in the end.

Hang in there.
costanza,

Sorry you're in this situation. I'm not the most experienced person on the board, but do know exactly what you're going through right now. I'm just over a year and a half ahead of you and a lot of your story rings true to mine. Actually, you still a lot of very similar situations on here. It was the most difficult year/year and a half of my life...but I'm doing much better now, and you will too. I also have two young children, at Bomb Day (BD) my son was 4 and my daughter 1yo. I also believe post-partum depression and anti-depression medicine played a role. Other items like splitting household and childcare duties 50/50 but it still not being good enough resonate.

The most important thing to know is that you WILL get through this. can and will have a great life ahead of you, no matter what happens between you and your wife.

Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.
Originally Posted by Thornton
I would also caution you that if your wife is out drinking and going to new classes etc, she might have her eye on another man. Prepare yourself mentally for this.
I'm not saying there is another man - how could I possibly know for sure - but an extremely high percentage of situations on this board involve an emotional and/or physical affair...even when the spouse swears up and down there's no one else. My ExW lied to my face multiple times about there not being something else, even when I knew it to be a fact and evidence to back it up. I hope that's not the case with you. All I'm saying is prepare yourself for the possibility, because if there is it will be tough to handle and might set you back.

LH19 gives you a lot of great advice you should ponder. Re-read it several times and make sure you understand it.

I'll highlight three main areas which I think are key for you right now...

Originally Posted by LH19
This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to play the long game.
Originally Posted by LH19
Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.
Originally Posted by LH19
When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again...but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
First, the timeline. LH mentions is several times but this may take way longer to play out than you realize. Right after my BD when I found out about the affairs, I did a lot of research on various about affairs and how they don't tend to last long and I thought "Oh, ok...I'll change how I'm acting and the affair will end in a few months and we can get past this". I was completely naïve. Believe what LH is saying about 'a marathon not a sprint'. This is most likely not something that's going to turn around after a month or two, and will likely be a year or more of your life. It's best to get your head wrapped around that.

Originally Posted by LH19
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
Second, this is maybe the most difficult because your natural instinct as she's pulling away is to get close to her and convince her she's wrong and push to fix it through therapy or relationship talks...etc., but you need to give her space and let her figure things out. Stop pressuring her. Stop trying to fix her. Even if it's scary...let go. Not only will detaching it help your mental state, but maybe it'll give her the freedom to see what she'll be missing.

Originally Posted by LH19
Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.
Third, work on yourself. I didn't respond to you sooner because you posted while I was at the gym lifting with a friend. I waited a year longer to start that than I should've, but I'm into it now and feel good about it. I started grad school. I've done projects around the house. I bought new golf clubs. I go out to dinner with friends...etc. Whatever it is that will keep you busy and improving yourself, start doing those things now...which will make you happy and benefit your life. It's healthy for you, but also attractive to others. Get your self strong. Physically, yes, but most importantly emotionally. You may be in for a rough ride so get mentally strong and KNOW you can handle it. Being strong will help you and will be much more attractive to your W than begging, and pleading, and breakdowns.

Lastly, you have two young kids so make sure you do everything in your power to help them through this. It was (and is) a very difficult process for my kids, especially my son who is older than my daughter and remembers/understands more. He's had meltdowns. I've needed to be his rock. I spend every bit of time I have with them being the best dad I can be. I'm coaching son's sports teams, I've taken them on vacation to the beach, to kids museums, gone apple picking, pumpkin farm, bowling, fishing, golf...make sure they have a stable parent and are comforted that you'll be there for them. It's your responsibility as a father...but it'll help you through things as well.

Keep posting on this forum and more and more people will chime in to help.
I’m guessing that you’re a Seinfeld fan, do you remember the episode where George does the opposite of every instinct he has? You’ll need to employ that strategy in this situation going forward. Drop the rope, focus on yourself and start improving on the things in yourself that need it.

The advice given so far has been on point. Like BL, my experience pretty closely mirrors yours and I am almost 18 months on from BD. I did not save my M, but I’m living a pretty enjoyable life and am content.

All I will add is to really reiterate that the changes need to be for you and no one else. Your initial reaction will likely be to change everything and to want it to happen quickly so she can notice and change her opinion of you. This will not work. Identify what needs changing and then, like LH said, go for small incremental changes. Real change takes time. Be patient and most importantly consistent. Don’t worry about noticing the changes, worry about being consistent. You may not notice for months, the one day all of a sudden you will see a small change and that sense of motivation will kick in all over again.

There was a poster who liked to define his changes by the PIES, physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. I’ve found it’s a pretty good guide to keep your focus on changes well rounded. Hit the gym, but don’t just hit the gym. Read, do charity, learn about yourself, get uncomfortable, contribute to others here, even if at the start all you can say is I hope things improve or you’re doing great.

You might not see it now, but regardless of the outcome this could well be the best thing that ever happens to you because incredible pain can be the most amazing driver of growth.
Originally Posted by costanza
Hi all,

I’ve just finished Divorce Remedy, my wife dropped the “I don’t love you anymore” 4 weeks ago. I’ve been having a pretty hard time wrapping my head around all this, found this group, and have been hesitating about posting for 2 weeks now.

We’ve been together for 11 years, two girls 2 & 4. Wife had suffered a major depression episode a few years before we met. She’s always been very open and upfront about it from the start. The first years were a whirlwind romance, we were both crazy about each other and really enjoyed life in general. We loved where we were going as a couple and in our careers. We suffered a miscarriage, as expected that was rough on both of us. Wife went through what i’d call a minor depression, but seemed to pull out of it after I proposed and things were looking like they were lining up again. We got pregnant again after a year or so, it was exciting and positive. We bought a house, we decorated and planned everything together, we’d giggle when we’d see other couples arguing at Ikea, we’d just have a great time and get along great.

After girl #1 was born, postpartum hit pretty quick and hard. Things got difficult, the house wasn’t very fun anymore. I had a really hard time understanding how someone could be so angry and sad during such an amazing moment in our lives. I think I built up resentment during this time and lacked understanding, yet tried to remain supportive and split tasks and child duties 50/50. 50/50 never seemed like enough for wife. That first year was incredibly difficult and I struggled wondering if we’d survive through it. At one point, she asked for a break while we were still living together, we barely spoke for 4 weeks. I gave her space and waited patiently. We got over that and things got better after the baby turned 1. We got pregnant again when baby was 18 months, the second pregnancy was very difficult on my wife. The mood swings and anger came back just like during the postpartum. I felt she resented and hated me, however she couldn’t tell me why or what I was doing wrong. I assumed it was hormones and that we’d get through it again when things settled down. Baby 2 hit us like a wrecking ball, the first 5 months were pretty close to hell, no sleep, crying episodes lasting 3-4 hours every night, it drained everything out of us, we were exhausted and struggling to keep everything together. When baby 2 was about 6 months we went on vacation to Florida to meet up with her parents, we took a 3 day vacation between the two of us, on the first night she told me she didn’t think this would work out. Felt she lost herself through the maternity leaves and wasn’t sure if she still loved me. We’re Canadian, so that means one full year off work with pay when you have a baby. She suggested she be the one to take the full maternity leave package since her employer offered full salary compensation, while mine only offered 65%.

I took all this hard, however I remained positive thinking it was postpartum and we’d be strong enough to make it work once things settled down again. Once baby2 turned 1 and the effects of the postpartum seemed to be passing, I pushed for couples therapy. She hesitated saying she thought I just wanted a therapist to side with me and say she was the issue, that comment really hit me hard, I started to think perhaps this was way worse than i thought if she was having those kind of thoughts about my intentions. After a while she agreed, and while in therapy she realized my intentions were genuine, after 2 sessions we were already doing so much better, the house became enjoyable again. This coincided with the beginning of Covid. Throughout all the lockdowns and stress, we still managed to have fun and stay positive. We saw the couples therapist for 5 sessions total and were doing great, so decided to take a break from the sessions. However, my wife felt she still had some lingering depression, so she started to see her therapist from before we were together, she suggested antidepressants, and her Dr prescribed Lexapro.

The change in character was pretty quick at this point, she was in such a good mood right out of bed first thing in the morning, which was never really her thing. After a few months her drinking started to get very noticeably heavier. She always enjoyed a glass of wine or two after work, and the occasional heavier drinking on special occasions and it was always very manageable without too much concern. But it got to the point I started getting worried about it. She was making less time for us, and more plans with her friends to go out drinking while before there were different activities, now it purely seemed to revolve around going out at night with drinks involved. I started to read up on Lexapro and SSRI’s in general, and was shocked to see all the cases relating SSRI’s with divorce. My anxiety and paranoia hit the roof at this point. My character completely changed and I started to doubt my mental well being, I’ve never had anxiety or depression before and I’m 48 now. Perhaps this situation with Covid put me over the top? I became a different person and wasn’t nearly as fun to be around. At the same time, my wife with the new found energy from the SSRI’s enrolled in University courses on top of working full time and also took a new roll at work that involved 2 nights of presentations and meetings, which left me alone with the kids on several evenings and weekends. My resentment started to build up, my energy shot down and I just wasn’t the same person anymore.

The past few months we’ve had several talks about things not going so well, I asked her to take a bit of a break from the courses and evenings working to balance things out a little, and I was faced with the coldest person I’ve ever met, her reply was brutal “this is me, i finally feel great, and i refuse to give up my projects”. I pleaded to keep some projects but let go of some, just so i could also enjoy a hobby and night out on occasion, and she shut that down. I had no idea who I was dealing with at this point, I suggested we take a break from the conversation and come back to it once we cooled down. I took a couple of weeks to really think about where we were and what we’ve been through as well as what I wanted/needed going forward, and realized I was still madly in love with her and wanted to make this work. A few weeks later, I was feeling a lot better and we decided to have the conversation, this is where she hit me with the bomb that she wanted a divorce, this was the new her and she didn’t see how we could work things out. She claimed we’ve been struggling for 5 years and refused to acknowledge the difference between the postpartum and the antidepressants period. Completely ignoring the amazing time we shared before the kids and after therapy, pre-medication. She stuck to her guns and kept saying this is the best she’s ever felt and I should leave if I don’t like it. I retorted with saying, this isn’t you, its the medication that’s making you happy, but you’re just ignoring any issues around you and giving up on an 11 year relationship with two amazing daughters. She refuses to consider perhaps the antidepressants are altering her feelings like thousands of online articles claim.

I’m totally stuck here and at a loss. I just don’t see how someone can abandon a family and all the dreams we had in such a short period. She refuses to speak to a therapist or make any changes. Any advice or experience with SSRI’s and antidepressants would be incredibly helpful. Thanks for reading!

Constanza, wow. Tough read. But so much of what you said resonated with me. I came here a few years ago convinced that anti-depressants were the base of my problem. You can see my first thread here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61151&Number=2778449#Post2778449

We as LBHs often feel the need to diagnose, identify and fix. Please listen when I tell you that approach will not work. You cannot find a cure and apply it in this situation. I know that stinks to hear. We all come here looking for the magic bullet. The one thing to say or do that will fix our W and our sitch, and then we can move on healthy and happy. There is no magic bullet. If there were MWD and her books wouldn't exist. This site wouldn't exist. There would be a single hit to a google request: "How can I save my marriage?" and that hit would tell you exactly what to say or do to fix it.

Unfortunately, there is no fix. You spent several paragraphs describing problems in the marriage. It wasn't until near the end that we get to the SSRIs, and then you hyper focus on those as being the cause of the split of your marriage. Yet she wasn't on the SSRIs on your 3 day vacation when she said she didn't think this would work out. So obviously maybe there is more than SSRIs at work here?

Yes, I've read the same stories you have about how SSRIs cause the split of married couples. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence. There are few details. No one knows all of the dynamics and all of the details of how couples got from point A to point B. Just that "she got on SSRIs and now we are getting a D!" I have come to realize that it isn't that simple. Maybe the SSRIs cause people to have the confidence to do things they didn't have the confidence to do prior. Maybe that is why they were depressed. If you read a lot of the writings here you will see that these BDs that happen to us are years in the making. It isn't as if our WAS woke up one morning and said, "Hmmmm, today I will tell my S that I want a D." No it takes months at a minimum. Likely, the words you heard on the follow-up conversation were words she wanted to say in the first conversation. But for some reason she held them back. Then when you restarted the conversation she had thought it over and decided that the next time you two had an R talk, she would hit you with the divorce bomb.

If you've read DR and if you've read this forum, then you know what is coming next because the advice is simple. The execution of that advice is difficult. But you really need to back off and give her space like you have done before. Remove all pressure and pursuit. Focus on you and the kids. I know you have said her schedule makes it difficult for you to have hobbies and go out, change that. Find a babysitter and go out and hang out with friends, and find things to participate in. Keep looking inwardly at what you can do to be the best person and father you can be. And finally, do not ignore the advice on detachment. You have to get to a place where her words and actions have no emotional affect on you. Not easy, but being cooly, lovingly detached is one of the best ways to have an impact on your situation.

I want to talk about something you said: "Perhaps this situation with Covid put me over the top? I became a different person and wasn’t nearly as fun to be around."

So think about this. Does this help your sitch or hurt it? Does being this guy mean she wants to be around you or she'd rather be around someone else? We have a way as humans of making happen what we fear most. We tend to react the exact opposite why to things we do not like than we should or than in ways that will improve our situation. So this is the first 180 you can make! Do not be this different person that isn't fun to be around.

You also said: "and realized I was still madly in love with her and wanted to make this work." Interesting how sometimes we do not want something until we are about to lose it? I think of the Cinderella song "Don't Know What You Got (Till It's Gone)". Humans are funny creatures that way! So it is important at this moment to step back and forget about your feelings, concentrate on logical thoughts. What does Constanza want? You posted a lengthy story about a marriage that has been problematic from the beginning, and then end it with desperately wanting to hang on and blaming it on SSRIs which were only recently introduced. REACTIONS.

Learn to no react. Reactions will hurt you in all of this. Do not react without first thinking logically. For instance, telling her that this isn't her, but the medication. That was a reaction. And it was probably met with less than desirable results. Why? Because she suddenly has had this epiphany, this awakening. This medication has given her a new lease on life, she feels better than she has in years, maybe ever. And all she sees is that you want to take it away from her. That you want her to go from this vibrant, happy, fulfilled person, to the depressed, unhappy, struggling from day-to-day person that she was before. And whether this is true or not, her perspective is that you had control over the depressed, unhappy her....and you do not over the new her. (Admit it, there is probably some truth in that.) So she has thrown down the gauntlet: she will give you up before she gives up this new lease on life.

So this is the moment you need to let go of control over her and anything she is or isn't saying and doing, and turn the focus to the one thing you can control: yourself. How can constanza become the best version of himself? A version only a fool would leave?
Originally Posted by Thornton
LH absolutely nailed it. Read his post over and over again and let it sink in.
Yes he did.
costanza - how's it going?
Wow, thanks so much for the replies and advice. You guys and gals are great. I didn't expect such quick feedback, great community!

I've read the feedback and advice, I understand the plan and giving space and all, it's the same principal as dating. Being cool and in control is way more attractive than being clingy and weak, I get it. However, what I'm struggling with is what going through the separation is going to do to my children. I know there isn't much in my control, but it's just soo difficult to turn my back and say "oh well, move on" when my 2 daughters will suffer the consequences of their parents failed marriage for the next 30-40 years. My wife/x-wife, has two half-siblings who lived through their mother leaving her first husband and they're still dealing with it 40 years later. It just tears me apart.

2- This is not my wife/x-wife! I'm living with a stranger. There are very distinct periods in this 12 year relationship. 7 Amazing years to start, followed by 1st 1 year postpartum, 9 months of normal, 1.5 years of pregnancy and 2nd postpartum, followed by another great year of having my wife back until the start of antidepressants. Every trouble phase was when there was a clear chemical imbalance. The person I'm living with today is wired differently, I feel like I don't know who i'll be leaving my kids with.

I feel like i can do the cool, calm and collected guy, that's who I am naturally, but thinking of my kids and abandoning my (real) wife makes me panic. I just feel like there is something more I need to do "turn over every rock". At least if we went to therapy together or if her Dr/Therapist suggested to change or stop the antidepressants well then we'd know it is indeed her making the decision and not a chemical imbalance. I'm not the only one concerned here, her parents are as well.

I'm soo torn, I realize every time we have the discussion i'm almost certainly shooting myself in the foot, however giving up on everything is just soo difficult.

Tough times.
Originally Posted by costanza
2- This is not my wife/x-wife! I'm living with a stranger. There are very distinct periods in this 12 year relationship. 7 Amazing years to start, followed by 1st 1 year postpartum, 9 months of normal, 1.5 years of pregnancy and 2nd postpartum, followed by another great year of having my wife back until the start of antidepressants. Every trouble phase was when there was a clear chemical imbalance. The person I'm living with today is wired differently, I feel like I don't know who i'll be leaving my kids with.

We hear this here a lot. Almost every sitch. But the fact you included this tells me you are still focusing too much on her. What she is doing. That she is so different. You also seem intent on the cause. "clear chemical imbalance". All of that is fool's gold. It is like chasing rainbows. It isn't going to help you. The cause is meaningless. Knowing what is causing it will not help you fix it. Fixing it isn't up to you. It is up to her. That is why the advice here is to remove focus from her. Focus on you. Focus on what you can control. You cannot control her brain chemicals. If you could you wouldn't be here.

Originally Posted by costanza
I feel like i can do the cool, calm and collected guy, that's who I am naturally, but thinking of my kids and abandoning my (real) wife makes me panic. I just feel like there is something more I need to do "turn over every rock". At least if we went to therapy together or if her Dr/Therapist suggested to change or stop the antidepressants well then we'd know it is indeed her making the decision and not a chemical imbalance. I'm not the only one concerned here, her parents are as well.

Fear is never a good motivator. Fear will almost always make you choose the wrong behavior. Do not react out of fear. What I see here is you still looking for the magic bullet. The right thing to say and/or do that will fix it. Fixing this is all out of your control! I think you are like most of us, a fixer. You see a problem, you diagnose it, troubleshoot it, and then fix it. That approach will not work in this. It will only push her further away.

Originally Posted by costanza
I'm soo torn, I realize every time we have the discussion i'm almost certainly shooting myself in the foot, however giving up on everything is just soo difficult.

Tough times.

Okay this is a common misconception. Not having discussions is not giving up. You are being influenced by what is called the "illusion of action". You feel that if you aren't DOING something, then you are giving up. But here is where you are wrong: doing nothing IS doing something. Sometimes the best thing you can do in these situations is to just back off and do nothing. Focus on you. Pressure and pursuit are your main enemies. Every time you pressure her or pursue her you push her further and further away. So everytime you want to start a discussion, or buy her a gift, or do anything related to her, you should stop and ask "is this pressure and/or pursuit". And if it is then DO NOT DO IT. Do nothing. Here is a hint; almost every thing you are tempted to do or say is pressure and/or pursuit!

So most LBS ask the next question: So what do I do? GAL...like a madman! 180s on bad behavior and instituting self-improvements. (But don't use those as an excuse to pressure and pursue.) And learn about detachment, work on it and get better at it over time. The fact that you are still diagnosing, trying to turn over every stone, and panicked about outcomes means you still have a lot of work to do on detachment. A detached LBSs will do and say the right things. An attached LBSs will do and say the wrong things.
Originally Posted by BL42
costanza - how's it going?

Not gonna lie, it's tough, ups and downs. I keep hoping for a miracle and sudden change, but I know from past experience and from reading all your posts that it doesn't work that way. I'm spoiled that way, I'm too used to getting quick results when I put my head to something. This challenge is bigger than just me, I need to accept and find a way to deal with that.

As sad as I am about losing my wife, i'm equally terrified by how much she's changed, and the impact on the children. Relationship wise, I know i'll be ok. I was also contemplating separation when we were both living through the postpartum phases, but then the period between kids came and also before the antidepressants and we were just soo happy, so close to living the dream I/we had hoped for, nice little family, great relationship, amazing families on both sides with great careers/salaries. Now the future isn't looking quite so bright.

My dad just came out of ICU for 4 days, he's been diagnosed with an incurable lung condition which will require major changes to his lifestyle.

I've been better.
costanza,
Originally Posted by costanza
I understand the plan and giving space and all, it's the same principal as dating. Being cool and in control is way more attractive than being clingy and weak, I get it.
Yep. Though understandably harder when it's your W and the mother of your kids and not just some random Tinder date.

Originally Posted by costanza
However, what I'm struggling with is what going through the separation is going to do to my children. I know there isn't much in my control, but it's just soo difficult to turn my back and say "oh well, move on" when my 2 daughters will suffer the consequences of their parents failed marriage for the next 30-40 years.
I completely understand. Your children are very similar in age to mine at BD. I won't lie it's been a difficult year for my kids, especially S4 (now S6). He's cried and been angry and had meltdowns. It [censored] to see. He does seem to have gotten better over time. I can only pray this won't impact them mentally and emotionally long term. You read things on both sides of it.

Unfortunately as you note it's totally out of your control. The only thing you can do - and MUST do - is be the best possible father to your children you can be. Be the strong, stable rock they need right now.

Originally Posted by costanza
I feel like i can do the cool, calm and collected guy, that's who I am naturally, but thinking of my kids and abandoning my (real) wife makes me panic. I just feel like there is something more I need to do "turn over every rock". At least if we went to therapy together or if her Dr/Therapist suggested to change or stop the antidepressants well then we'd know it is indeed her making the decision and not a chemical imbalance. I'm not the only one concerned here, her parents are as well.
Nearly everyone on here recommends avoiding marriage counseling unless both parties are committed to working on the relationship. I only know that my case they were 100% right. ExW had no interest in it whatsoever. When she finally agreed she told me she wants a D in just our 3rd session.

Originally Posted by costanza
Not gonna lie, it's tough, ups and downs. I keep hoping for a miracle and sudden change, but I know from past experience and from reading all your posts that it doesn't work that way.
Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Originally Posted by costanza
As sad as I am about losing my wife, i'm equally terrified by how much she's changed, and the impact on the children. Relationship wise, I know i'll be ok. I was also contemplating separation when we were both living through the postpartum phases, but then the period between kids came and also before the antidepressants and we were just soo happy, so close to living the dream I/we had hoped for, nice little family, great relationship, amazing families on both sides with great careers/salaries. Now the future isn't looking quite so bright.
I completely understand. Sorry man. It's tough, but you'll get through it.

Originally Posted by costanza
My dad just came out of ICU for 4 days, he's been diagnosed with an incurable lung condition which will require major changes to his lifestyle.
Wow, that's awful news. I'm very sorry to hear that. I'll keep him in my prayers.

costanza - What are you doing for yourself? Any GAL?
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by BL42
costanza - how's it going?

Not gonna lie, it's tough, ups and downs. I keep hoping for a miracle and sudden change, but I know from past experience and from reading all your posts that it doesn't work that way. I'm spoiled that way, I'm too used to getting quick results when I put my head to something. This challenge is bigger than just me, I need to accept and find a way to deal with that.

Yeah there is no sudden changes. No miracles. Either she will turn back slowly with a lot of time. Or she won't. My situation turned around in weeks, but even that was a slow change. When pressed my W was insistent that she still wanted a D. My situation was unique and had some unique dynamics involved. As similar as these situations can be, they are still all different.

"I'm spoiled that way, I'm too used to getting quick results when I put my head to something."

This is what I was picking up on. Expectations will be your downfall in these situations. Avoid them at all costs. Have no expectations. Just assume she is going to continue on the path she is on and start working on moving forward with your life. One thing we know is that she didn't want to stay with the guy you were, maybe if you GAL, work on yourself, and detach she will be interested in the guy you become. But do not do it for her....do it for you!

Originally Posted by costanza
As sad as I am about losing my wife, i'm equally terrified by how much she's changed, and the impact on the children. Relationship wise, I know i'll be ok. I was also contemplating separation when we were both living through the postpartum phases, but then the period between kids came and also before the antidepressants and we were just soo happy, so close to living the dream I/we had hoped for, nice little family, great relationship, amazing families on both sides with great careers/salaries. Now the future isn't looking quite so bright.

People change. It is a sad reality of life. Some change for the better. Some for the worse. Your kids will be okay. Decent human-beings have resulted from worse mothers, so all you can do is be the best dad that you can be! I have a friend whose mom cheated on and left his dad when my friend was 10. My friend is best husband and father today because he despise what his mom did and wanted to be nothing like her. And, in fact, he would (and I assume still would) cut anyone out of his life that cheats on their spouse. He will not tolerate from friends or anyone in his family. So sometimes the impact, though it is a negative event, can be positive on the kids.

I can relate to your "contemplating separation" comment. Funny isn't it? How we humans don't want something sometimes, until we can't have it. In fact, that is the very dynamic that makes DBing sometimes save a marriage. As you start to move forward and she sees you are healthy, happy, fulfilled and doing fine, that might trigger in her a "I want him because I can't have him" reaction. Not guaranteed, but again the key is to REALLY start to move your life forward.....FOR YOU.

And I would let go of the antidepressant narrative. It is a red herring. I came here convinced my W's SSRI's were the cause of our issues. 4 year later she is still on them and our marriage is better than ever before.

Your hopes and dreams were just that because they relied on someone else. Those are never things you are guaranteed to make happen. For instance, what if your W were to die from an illness or accident? That would ruin those same hopes and dreams. We live in an imperfect world and hopes and dreams coming to fruition isn't always up to us. Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it! So......

"Now the future isn't looking quite so bright."

Change this! Take control of your own life back and go make a bright future for yourself!

Originally Posted by costanza
My dad just came out of ICU for 4 days, he's been diagnosed with an incurable lung condition which will require major changes to his lifestyle.

This proves the point I just made. When your dad eventually succumbs to this do you think he wants you moping around, sad and depressed? Or will he want you to mourn but then go on to an awesome life? I will pray for your dad, but it is appointed unto all of us to die someday. I will pray that you find peace with whatever the outcome is.

Originally Posted by costanza
I've been better.

So, what are you going to do? BL said it, what are your GAL plans? The LBSs that suffer the most are the ones that do the poorest job at GAL. So don't be that guy!
Hello fine people! Please bear with me, I'm still new here. I absolutely love the support, advice and quick replies y'all have shared. It's an absolutely fantastic community. I can already tell several strong bonds and relationships have been found and built here.

By nature I like to question, a lot. As well as test theories, I also love having deep, sometimes intense discussions and sharing different points of view. I don't look for people to nod and agree with me and I certainly don't get offended if someone questions, challenges or retorts. It might come off as arrogant, but it's really not meant that way. Perhaps just some of my introverted personality coming out.

I've read the book, and spent many hours on this sight the past few weeks trying to absorb as much as possible. The advice all seems to point to one single approach. If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach? I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right? I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?

For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed? Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?

For the people that succeeded in rekindling the relationship, did you do anything different to this method and approach? Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?

Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.

The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision. It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.

Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.

My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.

It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?

What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?

I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?
Originally Posted by SteveLW
And I would let go of the antidepressant narrative. It is a red herring. I came here convinced my W's SSRI's were the cause of our issues. 4 year later she is still on them and our marriage is better than ever before.

That's great, I'm thrilled it worked out for you and I only hope I can manage the same. I'm sure you guys found a way to discuss and openly communicate through the antidepressants? That's where we failed, I saw her distancing early on and I panicked and got worse over time. Communication totally broke down, I became paranoid, read up more on antidepressants, and it only got exponentially worse. Speaking to friends with experience with them just snowballed.

My point is not all people and drugs are created the same. Like you say, every situation is different. One can have a terrible reaction to one and not another. Its just compatibility. There are lots of things someone can try before jumping on the SSRI bandwagon while filling their Dr's pockets with kickbacks.
Originally Posted by costanza
If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach?
If you are talking about saving your marriage immediately about 5-10% after bomb drop in which the person actually means it.
Originally Posted by costanza
I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right?

Yes
Originally Posted by costanza
I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?
Maybe but 99% come to this board to save their marriage
Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed?
It takes 2 people to make a marriage work and in my case I was the only one willing to try.
Originally Posted by costanza
Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?
No I was pretty good at DBing but she had already checked out. Its hard to turn a ship that is full steam ahead.
Originally Posted by costanza
Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?
I think there are a few out of thousands of cases on here.
Originally Posted by costanza
Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.
Again by the time you get here your odds are very low.
Originally Posted by costanza
The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision.
Actually you did a very smart thing by dating lots of women to be sure.
Originally Posted by costanza
It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.
So the resentment starts to build
Originally Posted by costanza
Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.
Ok so what does fighting for her look like to you?
Originally Posted by costanza
My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.
Ok so what does manning up look like to you?
Originally Posted by costanza
It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?
The truth is you are probably right. You just have to convince her of that. The problem is the more you try to convince her the more she will dig her heels in to prove she is right.
Originally Posted by costanza
What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?
Yes. Good luck trying to convince her that she's the problem.
Originally Posted by costanza
I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?
Actually giving her what she wants isn't stonewalling her it is actually the most loving and caring thing you could do for her right now.
Originally Posted by costanza
I've read the book, and spent many hours on this sight the past few weeks trying to absorb as much as possible. The advice all seems to point to one single approach. If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach? I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right? I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?

I will answer your success rate of people on here using the best approach in the way you intended: saving their marriage. Ain't gonna lie, it is low. BUT it is exponentially higher than the alternative which is to hold on tight, pressure and pursue.

Now the real answer is that the success rate is nearly 100%....when you change the goal. The real goal is to come through your sitch healthy, happy and a better person. Almost everyone that DBs does that regardless of what their WAS eventually decides.

Almost everyone comes here wanting to save the marriage. Almost everyone on here eventually realizes that that is not up to them and then decides the better approach is the learn to cope and MOVE FORWARD (not on) with their own life.

Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed? Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?

The main reason is that you cannot control other people. Most come here with the hope they can control their spouse in some way, shape or form. The first lesson to learn is that you cannot. Which means even if you do everything right from the minute they drop the D bomb, THEY still get to decide whether to stay or go. It takes two committed people to make a MR work. It only takes one to make a D. So you DB for yourself. SOMETIMES it can help to save your marriage. A lot of times no matter what the WAS is determined to leave. But DBing always helps you move forward with your life, one way or the other!



Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that succeeded in rekindling the relationship, did you do anything different to this method and approach? Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?

Like anything in life these questions are too complex to have a full answer. Again, you are assuming the LBS has any power at all. They do not. The reason LBS feel so helpless is that in 99% of the situations the WAS holds all the power for whether or not the MR continues or ends. So these questions are flawed because they are based on a false belief.

What I can tell you is I've been through twice. I've seen what being sad, mopey, depressed while at the same time being super spouse, doing everything, pressuring and pursuing and doing what came instinctually did. It pushed my W further away. When I pulled back, focused on me, GAL like a madman!, concentrated on 180ing and self-improving to be the best version of myself for me, and to be properly, and lovingly detached, my wife wondered what was different and started to get interested in what was changing.

DBing is not a 100% surefire, do everything right and it will save your marriage approach. But it will save you!! And sometimes the marriage comes along for the ride.

Originally Posted by costanza
Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.

People swear by it because it moves the goalpost from trying to save your marriage to trying to save yourself. Almost everyone that has used DBing tactics has realized how much better their lives were afterward, whether the marriage was saved or not.

Originally Posted by costanza
The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision. It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.

Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.

My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.

It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?

I think you've completely missed the point of DBing. You say you've read the book. You say you've read here. Where did you come up with the idea that DBing is giving up on the marriage? No one has ever said that. I would highly suggest you consider doing more research into these tactics.

Focusing on yourself
GAL
Being the best version of you that you can be through self-improvement
Being detached properly and lovingly (if it helps, google self-differentiation in marriage)
Giving her the time and the space to figure out what she wants

Originally Posted by costanza
What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?

My W's doctors and past ICs were all onboard with her two SSRI prescription. It was an uphill battle to get her give those up. In her mind she was suicidal before the SSRIs, and not after. In her mind they saved her life! So essentially my request for her to go off of them was a request for her to give up her life.

I would highly encourage you to step back and look at that quoted paragraph for a minute. "I want to ask my wife......"

So let's role play. Knowing where she is at right now, and her reactions to these types of approaches already, what do you really think her reaction will be? Put yourself in her shoes, and costanza is coming to you, again, and blaming your magical substances on the marital problems: play her and react!

This is the illusion of action playing with your mind. This you focusing too much on her. I think you already have your answer to this question. I think based on what you have posted when you present this plan to her she will tell you it is useless and she wants a D.

Originally Posted by costanza
I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?

DBing is not stonewalling. DBing is not giving up. MWD didn't write a book called Divorce Busting to tell LBSs to "give up".

I think you need to reread the book.
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by SteveLW
And I would let go of the antidepressant narrative. It is a red herring. I came here convinced my W's SSRI's were the cause of our issues. 4 year later she is still on them and our marriage is better than ever before.

That's great, I'm thrilled it worked out for you and I only hope I can manage the same. I'm sure you guys found a way to discuss and openly communicate through the antidepressants? That's where we failed, I saw her distancing early on and I panicked and got worse over time. Communication totally broke down, I became paranoid, read up more on antidepressants, and it only got exponentially worse. Speaking to friends with experience with them just snowballed.

My point is not all people and drugs are created the same. Like you say, every situation is different. One can have a terrible reaction to one and not another. Its just compatibility. There are lots of things someone can try before jumping on the SSRI bandwagon while filling their Dr's pockets with kickbacks.

Not sure what you mean about openly communicating? As I told you, I read the same things you do about SSRIs and the impacts on marriage. I approached her on it as the key to saving our marriage. She reacted the way I thought she would, she saw them as life-saving and wanted no part of my "go off them please" approach. You are right, everyone is different, but it is same thing that happens with people that come here convinced their spouse is in a MLC. And if they'd only get help we could fix it!

From the MLCer perspective, their life and outlook on it has never been better! They don't want help with the MLC because to them it is an epiphany! It isn't a crisis at all.

Look, you are preaching to the choir. I once fired a dr because he tried to precribe to me a statin when I wanted to try tweaking my diet and getting back into exercise first. I am a "medication as a last resort" guy. But that is me. That is you. That is not our wives. Again, are you trying to control her because you love her? Or is it because you love being married to her for what you get out of it?

So you can keep shaking that tree. But remember, what we fear most we create. I fear this path is going to get you to where you don't want to be faster: divorced.
You guys are great, thanks again for the help and quick replies. It's really helpful to read it from people that have been through it.

Need to step out, I'll be back and read it slower later.

Have a good one!
Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.
Also I suggest you read this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2924687&page=9
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.

As usual, great post wayward! I think a lot of us come to the board thinking we know what the problem is, are convinced of it, and just want to know what to say or do that will fix it. I detect that in constanza and hopefully. constanza you will stick around and learn. I am not qualified to say that the SSRIs aren't the problem. But putting all your eggs in that basket is probably not going to get you where you want to be.

Also, I will admit, I did see a bit of a change in my W after SSRIs as opposed to before. She became a lot more outspoken than she was in the 12 years I knew her prior to the SSRIs. She was always a deeply empathetic person. And while she still has empathy for others, she is much less tolerant of behavior she sees as problematic. I thought I was going to get into a fight at a college football a few years ago because she confronted the drunk millenial behind us that was dropping an f-bomb a second....despite our 9 year-old sitting there. Did it change her personality? I cannot say that. Did I notice behavioral changes? I would be lying to say I did not.

However, what I can now say looking back with the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, is that while I came to this board convinced her SSRIs were the problem (just look at my original thread!!), I can now look back and say without a doubt that they were not the reason for my situation.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach?
If you are talking about saving your marriage immediately about 5-10% after bomb drop in which the person actually means it.
Originally Posted by costanza
I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right?

Yes
Originally Posted by costanza
I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?
Maybe but 99% come to this board to save their marriage
Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed?
It takes 2 people to make a marriage work and in my case I was the only one willing to try.
Originally Posted by costanza
Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?
No I was pretty good at DBing but she had already checked out. Its hard to turn a ship that is full steam ahead.
Originally Posted by costanza
Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?
I think there are a few out of thousands of cases on here.
Originally Posted by costanza
Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.
Again by the time you get here your odds are very low.
Originally Posted by costanza
The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision.
Actually you did a very smart thing by dating lots of women to be sure.
Originally Posted by costanza
It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.
So the resentment starts to build
Originally Posted by costanza
Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.
Ok so what does fighting for her look like to you?
Originally Posted by costanza
My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.
Ok so what does manning up look like to you?
Originally Posted by costanza
It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?
The truth is you are probably right. You just have to convince her of that. The problem is the more you try to convince her the more she will dig her heels in to prove she is right.
Originally Posted by costanza
What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?
Yes. Good luck trying to convince her that she's the problem.
Originally Posted by costanza
I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?
Actually giving her what she wants isn't stonewalling her it is actually the most loving and caring thing you could do for her right now.

I absolutely love and appreciate your replies and the questions you come back with even more! Really sheds light on the situation and changes the perspective. You should be paid for this!
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by costanza
I've read the book, and spent many hours on this sight the past few weeks trying to absorb as much as possible. The advice all seems to point to one single approach. If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach? I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right? I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?

I will answer your success rate of people on here using the best approach in the way you intended: saving their marriage. Ain't gonna lie, it is low. BUT it is exponentially higher than the alternative which is to hold on tight, pressure and pursue.

Now the real answer is that the success rate is nearly 100%....when you change the goal. The real goal is to come through your sitch healthy, happy and a better person. Almost everyone that DBs does that regardless of what their WAS eventually decides.

Almost everyone comes here wanting to save the marriage. Almost everyone on here eventually realizes that that is not up to them and then decides the better approach is the learn to cope and MOVE FORWARD (not on) with their own life.

Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed? Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?

The main reason is that you cannot control other people. Most come here with the hope they can control their spouse in some way, shape or form. The first lesson to learn is that you cannot. Which means even if you do everything right from the minute they drop the D bomb, THEY still get to decide whether to stay or go. It takes two committed people to make a MR work. It only takes one to make a D. So you DB for yourself. SOMETIMES it can help to save your marriage. A lot of times no matter what the WAS is determined to leave. But DBing always helps you move forward with your life, one way or the other!



Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that succeeded in rekindling the relationship, did you do anything different to this method and approach? Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?

Like anything in life these questions are too complex to have a full answer. Again, you are assuming the LBS has any power at all. They do not. The reason LBS feel so helpless is that in 99% of the situations the WAS holds all the power for whether or not the MR continues or ends. So these questions are flawed because they are based on a false belief.

What I can tell you is I've been through twice. I've seen what being sad, mopey, depressed while at the same time being super spouse, doing everything, pressuring and pursuing and doing what came instinctually did. It pushed my W further away. When I pulled back, focused on me, GAL like a madman!, concentrated on 180ing and self-improving to be the best version of myself for me, and to be properly, and lovingly detached, my wife wondered what was different and started to get interested in what was changing.

DBing is not a 100% surefire, do everything right and it will save your marriage approach. But it will save you!! And sometimes the marriage comes along for the ride.

Originally Posted by costanza
Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.

People swear by it because it moves the goalpost from trying to save your marriage to trying to save yourself. Almost everyone that has used DBing tactics has realized how much better their lives were afterward, whether the marriage was saved or not.

Originally Posted by costanza
The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision. It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.

Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.

My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.

It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?

I think you've completely missed the point of DBing. You say you've read the book. You say you've read here. Where did you come up with the idea that DBing is giving up on the marriage? No one has ever said that. I would highly suggest you consider doing more research into these tactics.

Focusing on yourself
GAL
Being the best version of you that you can be through self-improvement
Being detached properly and lovingly (if it helps, google self-differentiation in marriage)
Giving her the time and the space to figure out what she wants

Originally Posted by costanza
What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?

My W's doctors and past ICs were all onboard with her two SSRI prescription. It was an uphill battle to get her give those up. In her mind she was suicidal before the SSRIs, and not after. In her mind they saved her life! So essentially my request for her to go off of them was a request for her to give up her life.

I would highly encourage you to step back and look at that quoted paragraph for a minute. "I want to ask my wife......"

So let's role play. Knowing where she is at right now, and her reactions to these types of approaches already, what do you really think her reaction will be? Put yourself in her shoes, and costanza is coming to you, again, and blaming your magical substances on the marital problems: play her and react!

This is the illusion of action playing with your mind. This you focusing too much on her. I think you already have your answer to this question. I think based on what you have posted when you present this plan to her she will tell you it is useless and she wants a D.

Originally Posted by costanza
I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?

DBing is not stonewalling. DBing is not giving up. MWD didn't write a book called Divorce Busting to tell LBSs to "give up".

I think you need to reread the book.

Great stuff, thank you so much, you guys are great at explaining the bigger picture.

I can't answer all the questions right now, however the one that sticks out the most to me, is the "focusing on me and detaching". I realize I haven't explained our situation very well and its hard to put it all down in writing, it'd be freakishly long. My wife is not in a great place sometimes. Work is absolutely nuts at the moment and the past few months. She's exhausted from working late nights (from home, not suggesting an affair here). She's rather up/down depending the day and situation. The days/nights i do get out and keep myself busy, she seems to struggle with the load and two kids. So I feel guilty whenever I do leave, I probably shouldn't considering she's willing to do half of it on her own. Also, family and I can see the difference in her after some drinking, it seems to negate the effects of the medication for a short while, so she's a little more of her old self for a little while at least, and actually gets nice, jokes and is affectionate. Until the anxiety kicks in for a day or two following, then the cold SSRI'd version comes back until the next time she drinks.

So all that to say, I feel I'd be abandoning her during a difficult period when she's already at the end of her rope by GALing and focusing on me. Unless i'm being thick and that's part of the point? Help her see how difficult and less fun it is doing it solo part-time?
Originally Posted by costanza
I absolutely love and appreciate your replies and the questions you come back with even more! Really sheds light on the situation and changes the perspective. You should be paid for this!
I feel for you with the two young kids. So similar to my sitch, with S4 and D1 at BD.

I also wondered about the impact SSRIs/ADs were having on my ExW as well, as well as postpartum depression and her family history/trama in her teenage years. The thing about it is, whether they are factor on her mindset or not, doesn't really matter in terms of your best approach forward. You likely won't be able to reason or logic your way out of it with her; she probably won't listen and will more likely will push back or further away from you. Trust me, I get your mindset trying to "understand/reason/fix", but you're better off dropping your focus on the SSRIs and instead focus completely on yourself and the kids. Work on detachment, work on your 180s, get out and GAL...etc. Get strong and make yourself the best man you can be.

I'm a year and a half ahead of you. Hopefully you don't get divorced like, but I can tell you even if you do I'm in a much better state than a year ago.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.

I've obviously hit a nerve here, I apologize if I did. I did start off with a warning: "It might come off as arrogant, but it's really not meant that way. Perhaps just some of my introverted personality coming out".

I just don't understand why you insinuate "lady drugs", I'm talking about my wife/x-wife on antidepressants, I feel it's a bit much to accuse me of labeling them with women. But then I realized i missed a paragraph when I cut and pasted my post, glad i didn't delete the draft:

One of my closest friends was prescribed an SSRI after his father passed away, he had a really hard time with the loss. When the Dr decided it was time to stop two years later, he "woke up" (his words) and found himself divorced with two kids and a massive mortgage he couldn't afford. He's in therapy trying to understand how it happened and trying put everything back together. He feels antidepressants stole everything from him. I won't even go into details of how he remembers taking care of the kids alone during that time. This is an intelligent, successful and fully functional adult. I also struggled to keep my relationship alive with him during his phase, he just disappeared and couldn't be bothered to keep in touch with any of us. My Doc also prescribed me an SSRI when I told her about my separation, she quickly wrote me up a prescription for sleeping pills and an SSRI. Sorry, but I feel strongly that Dr's are just too quick to prescribe pills as a solution and coping mechanism. My same friend suggested I stay away from them unless I hit total rock bottom and become suicidal. My therapist, also a woman, is the one that suggested I talk to my wife about her looking into changing or stopping the SSRI's.

Honestly, with all the information out there, and after talking to Doc's and Therapists that don't have anything to gain from it, I don't see how anyone can challenge that they can be harmful to SOME people. Claiming that someone is "more themselves" on SSRI's is kind of a stretch. They make you happy, and able to let stuff role off your back with less anxiety, but that does not mean they bring out the "real you". You're boosting someone's serotonin, basically changing their chemical balance. Loads of illicite drugs also do that. They've possibly never had that much serotonin in their systems and changing some behaviors, this isn't a conspiracy theory, regular follow-ups are suggested on the label. My wife has been on them for 14 months with no follow-up. There is also an important difference between someone with anxiety and someone that is suicidal. My wife/xwife was never suicidal. BIG difference there.

I will explain my situation more soon, and I thank you for the feedback. While kinda harsh at times, you did make important points and I will take them with me.
C,

I think what is being pointed out is that there are so many layers going on that focusing solely on the SSRIs is a mistake. I say this all the time and I think it makes people mad, relationships are not about love they are about value and right now your W sees it that her life will be better without you as her husband. Dig down deep and tell us how you contributed to how you got where you at right now.
Originally Posted by costanza
So all that to say, I feel I'd be abandoning her during a difficult period when she's already at the end of her rope by GALing and focusing on me. Unless i'm being thick and that's part of the point? Help her see how difficult and less fun it is doing it solo part-time?

Actually, the point of GAL and focusing on you is much simpler. She has said she wants less of you. So you give that to her.

DBing is counter-intuitive. It goes against our instincts as hunter-gatherers. What I can assure you is that the pursuit you engage in when you meet someone will not work when it comes to your walkaway spouse. If it did this forum wouldn't exist.

However, your logic doesn't make sense when you look at it from a 50k ft view:

=MR isn't going well.
=Wife says she wants a D.
=Husband feels like he is abandoning her by focusing on himself and GAL.
=So he becomes super-husband/dad, always there, letting her go out and live a GGW, engage with OM lifestyle.

Who is abandoning whom?
Originally Posted by costanza
I've obviously hit a nerve here, I apologize if I did. I did start off with a warning: "It might come off as arrogant, but it's really not meant that way. Perhaps just some of my introverted personality coming out".
I'm introverted and being arrogant isn't an introverted trait. Coming off as such for a person lacking appropriate social skills is a sign of ASD, but not a sign of introversion. So no that was not your "introverted personality coming out." And you don't sound arrogant. You sound like you're grasping at straws. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by costanza
I just don't understand why you insinuate "lady drugs", I'm talking about my wife/x-wife on antidepressants, I feel it's a bit much to accuse me of labeling them with women.
I didn't say lady drugs. You read lady drugs. I said crazy-lady drugs. As in drugs for a crazy person who happens to be a woman.

Originally Posted by costanza
One of my closest friends was prescribed an SSRI after his father passed away, he had a really hard time with the loss. When the Dr decided it was time to stop two years later, he "woke up" (his words) and found himself divorced with two kids and a massive mortgage he couldn't afford. He's in therapy trying to understand how it happened and trying put everything back together. He feels antidepressants stole everything from him.
Or I don't know, he didn't process his grief and depression appropriately and blew up his life, and instead of taking any personal responsibility he's blaming drugs he could've changed or gotten off of at any time.

I can tell a drug isn't working with my body or my brain chemistry. Most people who have an idea of how they "should" feel in their body or in their head knows this. Even those of us with broken brains due to bad brain chemistry. Where I live you have to check in monthly with a new psychotropic medication and then quarterly, and then bi annually. And eventually at least annually.

Women in particular are more attuned to this given the whole birth control thing. Most of us have been through at least a half dozen methods before we find one that doesn't make us miserable. And we've all had at least one where we could literally see the mood changes happening and felt powerless to do anything about it.

Your friend had plenty of time to rectify the situation before he blew his entire life up. It wasn't court ordered medication. He had plenty of time to "wake up." Yet he didn't until he had a scape goat. I truly don't understand how you see this as proof of your point, and not an argument against.

And I'm sorry if you have people in your life telling you anti-depressants are only for the suicidal but that leads me to believe that you've had little to no exposure to a person with chronic clinical depression. And that you are clearly surrounding yourself with the wrong kind of people if you want any understanding of what was and is happening in your MR and with your W.

Originally Posted by costanza
My therapist, also a woman, is the one that suggested I talk to my wife about her looking into changing or stopping the SSRI's.
You do know that a lot of ICs are just validation bots. Confirmation bias is a h3ll of thing.

Originally Posted by costanza
Honestly, with all the information out there, and after talking to Doc's and Therapists that don't have anything to gain from it, I don't see how anyone can challenge that they can be harmful to SOME people. Claiming that someone is "more themselves" on SSRI's is kind of a stretch. They make you happy, and able to let stuff role off your back with less anxiety, but that does not mean they bring out the "real you." You're boosting someone's serotonin, basically changing their chemical balance. Loads of illicite drugs also do that. They've possibly never had that much serotonin in their systems and changing some behaviors, this isn't a conspiracy theory, regular follow-ups are suggested on the label. There is also an important difference between someone with anxiety and someone that is suicidal. My wife/xwife was never suicidal. BIG difference there.
Hi, hey person with chronic depression here. This is a whole lotta words for "I have no ability to conceptualize depression." #1 depression and anxiety are often found together sometimes it's a causal relationship, sometime it's a comorbidity. Regardless of relationship they can be treated together #2 DEPRESSION ISN'T ALWAYS SUICIDAL. I strongly, strongly suggest you stop wasting your time reading on how SSRI's are the cause for your MR falling apart and take some time reading up on postpartum depression and anxiety. As well as generalize anxiety disorders and clinical depression thedepressionproject.com is a really good resource for people who don't have a real good handle on depression and anxiety, the ways it can be exhibited, the effects it has on the person suffering with them, and how the people who care about them can support them.

Originally Posted by costanza
My wife has been on them for 14 months with no follow-up.
^^^this and only this is why I wasn't more pointed with you above. This isn't best practice and isn't allowed in my State. I will let you have this without argument. She should've had a follow up and I'll add she very likely needs a psychiatric evaluation to get her Dx'd and to get her on the proper Rx's. BUT that's not up to you, so it's a waste of your time and everyone elses to get hung up on that.

The last little tidbit I have for you is from my perspective I see a man who was miserable when his wife was suffering, and is miserable now that she's not. So you wanted her to get better and she did but she didn't get better the way you wanted her to so now you're trying to get her and the universe to bend to your will and be the person you thought she was, and the person you want her to be and for it to be the MR you want. When you could've been applying that time and energy to finding a way for you and your wife to change and grow together. This is the part that comes off as arrogance to me. And that isn't introversion my friend, that's control. 100% control. But you're here now and you're welcome to stop wasting all that energy any time you like and turn it toward you changing and growing on your own while you bide your time with the MR stuff.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're are some poor shlub who just wanted a W and kids and the happy little family he signed up for and his W went totally off the rails. And you just need love and support through this. But I've yet to have gotten that here. I'm hoping when you have time to offer more there is actually more.
I just want to also be clear that 2 of the main things that happened in my MR before my H went out and started an A were tied to my depression.

1) I waited way too long to get help, but I was able to reason my way out of it was because I wasn't suicidal. I knew and know that's not a milemarker in getting help, but I used it as a crutch because it's socially acceptable to believe depression is ONLY suicidal ideation. My mental health took a huge toll on my H and my MR, even if it was taking a much greater toll on me

2) My H thought depression meant sad. He was one of those wonderful people who tell you smile, and take walks, and work out and get sunshine, and drink water and all will be well. He never once bothered to understand what it was, even after I started treatment. Nor did he research how to cope as a partner or how to support at a partner.

I failed my H and my MR because I didn't want to put in the work that it requires to be treated, well because I was depressed and didn't think I had the emotional bandwidth. And because I let my functional depression convince me that no one else was suffering but me because I was doing everything I was supposed to be while I was dying inside.

My H failed me and our MR because it was easier to believe I was a Negative Nancy sad sack type of person than it was for him to accept that his W needed help, and that he needed to be part of that. He failed me and our MR because he thought he knew everything he needed to know about my mental health. He then failed me and our MR because he started talking to people outside of our MR and my care team about me and my mental health, which then lead to an A.

It takes 2 people for a MR to fall apart. Let's try the house metaphor. My H set the house on fire and repeatedly pointed at it being my fault because I busted all the windows out and refused to fix them so the rain came in and destroyed the walls and floors. Ignoring that he had ripped all the doors from the hinges and smashed holes in the load bearing walls before he ever started the fire.

Your W started the fire. But that house wasn't destroyed only by her.
A few quick thoughts from me.

Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her. If anything I think she wishes there was so it'd be easier for me to accept.
I thought this too. My husband couldn't even tell a tiny white lie. Ever. Not saying your wife is having an affair. But new job, going out with friends, new school... I don't think you can necessarily discount this as a possibility. Just another word of caution about blaming all of her behavior on her meds. What you describe is all super common behavior for WASs. They all seem like strangers.

Two. I would set your ego aside and read what Wayfarer has written, closely. She's given you a important insight into depression and if you truly care about what your wife may be going through, I'd jump at the opportunity to learn more about what depression is like rather than just serve back anecdotes and google searches that bolster your previously held theories.

Three. From what I have read, she's still in the house-- is that true? What are the sleeping arrangements? She's just been talking about wanting to talk to someone about starting the separation? If I have that all right, I'd take a deep breath and RELAX, man. Let her do the legwork on finding a place and moving out. You don't need to facilitate any of this. WASs are lazy (unless there is an AP pushing them, and even so those ones can STILL be pretty lazy about actually doing any work to get a D). The vets used to say she has given you a gift... the gift of TIME. You have this. Don't squander it.

Four. DBing isn't aloofness or stonewalling. It is focusing on you and becoming your best self. Not pursuing does not equal stonewalling. You can be pleasant and kind and polite, just not trying to rope her into conversations about stopping her medications and staying married. Do your own thing. GAL. Focus on your kids and being the best dad you can possibly be. Don't start R talks, but if she brings it up, listen and validate and DON'T ARGUE.

Five. As you focus on yourself-- can you tell us behaviors that you have that may have contributed to the failure of your M? Take the SSRIs and her depression episodes completely out of the picture and just focus on YOU. I'd be interested to know if you have any 180s you'd like to make, for yourself.
Oh I forgot-- wanted to reaffirm what several posters have said here and I think is really, really important for you-- it does seem like there is a whole lot of you trying to change or control your wife's behavior, and this focus on her medications exemplifies that. You need to let all that go and remember that the only person you can control is YOU. This was very difficult for me. I wanted to fix my husband and wake him up and make him realize what he was risking, how could he do this to our children, etc etc etc. But I couldn't, because that was not my work to do. That was his path and there was nothing I could do that would 'fix' him. He had to come to the realization on his own that he wanted to end the A and work on our M. I couldn't force him into any of that. In the same way, your W is an adult human being and she doesn't need your permission to take anti-depressants or get divorced from you. Those are her choices, though you may disagree and those choices may be painful for you.

Something that helped me a lot in my sitch was "you can't clap with one hand." No matter how much I wished otherwise, I couldn't force my H to do anything. I could only control myself. And when I really understood this in my bones, I was able to really focus on myself, my boundaries, and what was best for me and my kids, without getting distracted by wishing for change that wasn't within my power to effect.
On the 14 months with no follow-up. One thing with SSRIs is they can't just be stopped. Often times Drs will extend the prescription with a promise the patient will schedule the follow-up. I've seen this happen with my wife at least a couple of times.
wayfarer,
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're are some poor shlub who just wanted a W and kids and the happy little family he signed up for and his W went totally off the rails. And you just need love and support through this. But I've yet to have gotten that here. I'm hoping when you have time to offer more there is actually more.
I have to say, it definitely comes across to me like you're coming out pretty harsh and hostile against costanza right out of the gate. We're all in agreement that A) the SSRIs shouldn't be his main focus and B) he should self-reflect on his contributions to the demise of the marriage, but it's not unreasonable for him to wonder whether they're a factor...most people coming to this board are trying to diagnose the problem so they can find a remedy. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a controlling/monster of a husband.

costanza,
Originally Posted by LH19
Dig down deep and tell us how you contributed to how you got where you at right now.
Originally Posted by may22
As you focus on yourself-- can you tell us behaviors that you have that may have contributed to the failure of your M? Take the SSRIs and her depression episodes completely out of the picture and just focus on YOU. I'd be interested to know if you have any 180s you'd like to make, for yourself.
Wayfarer has a point though, and most of the people posting on your thread either alluded to or explicitly asked...are you doing any self-reflection on your contributions to the state of the marriage? Take time to think about it. It's never completely one-sided. Were there resentments you held? Did you stonewall or act out? Are their ways you could've acted or communicated better? This is an important aspect of DB'ing. Reflect on these questions and let the answers inform your 180s.

Originally Posted by Thornton
I would also caution you that if your wife is out drinking and going to new classes etc, she might have her eye on another man. Prepare yourself mentally for this.
Originally Posted by BL42
I'm not saying there is another man - how could I possibly know for sure - but an extremely high percentage of situations on this board involve an emotional and/or physical affair...even when the spouse swears up and down there's no one else. All I'm saying is prepare yourself for the possibility, because if there is it will be tough to handle and might set you back.
Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her. If anything I think she wishes there was so it'd be easier for me to accept.
I thought this too. My husband couldn't even tell a tiny white lie. Ever. Not saying your wife is having an affair. But new job, going out with friends, new school... I don't think you can necessarily discount this as a possibility.
I mentioned this above. Thornton mentioned it. Do you have any indication whatsoever of another man involved? Even just a gut intuition? Is she guarding her phone? That's typically a big tip-off.

Originally Posted by may22
From what I have read, she's still in the house-- is that true? What are the sleeping arrangements? She's just been talking about wanting to talk to someone about starting the separation?
Can you tell us more about the logistics of the situation?

Originally Posted by may22
Something that helped me a lot in my sitch was "you can't clap with one hand." No matter how much I wished otherwise, I couldn't force my H to do anything. I could only control myself. And when I really understood this in my bones, I was able to really focus on myself, my boundaries, and what was best for me and my kids, without getting distracted by wishing for change that wasn't within my power to effect.
Great quote.
Hi May22, funny coincidence, that's my bday. Thanks for the suggestions, very helpful.

Originally Posted by may22
A few quick thoughts from me.

Three. From what I have read, she's still in the house-- is that true? What are the sleeping arrangements? She's just been talking about wanting to talk to someone about starting the separation? If I have that all right, I'd take a deep breath and RELAX, man. Let her do the legwork on finding a place and moving out. You don't need to facilitate any of this. WASs are lazy (unless there is an AP pushing them, and even so those ones can STILL be pretty lazy about actually doing any work to get a D). The vets used to say she has given you a gift... the gift of TIME. You have this. Don't squander it.

Yes, we're still in the house together. We still sleep in the same bed, king size so there is more than enough space not to touch. Yes, initially she didn't want to talk to someone, but now she wants to. However I believe from the brief convo's on the matter, it'll probably be more of a seperation coach than couples counseling. She says she's already called and that we should have an appointment soon, however that was 10 days ago and nothing yet. I'm following the DB technique of not initiating the discussion, so I didn't ask for more detail. The deadline we set initially for seperation was January, so I have 2 months left under the same roof. Clocks ticking, like it isn't already stressful enough. I hope you're right, and she'll get lazy. We decided to start by keeping the kids at our house and we'd alternate in/out.

Like I said earlier, her moods fluctuate quite a bit depending the day, situation and activity. I stopped initiating any kind of plans, calls or text messages unless its absolutely required for a specific reason and I keep them short. She's been pretty regular in sending texts for various reasons, sometimes related to plans or the girls or random stuff. On Thursday she invited me to her parents for dinner with the kids, I turned her down to give her space. They live 10 minutes away, so it'd only be a 2 hour thing max. As I finished kissing my daughters at the car, W blew me a kiss as she pulled away. She hadn't shown any affection in 6 weeks, except for one afternoon 2 weeks ago, that she got a little drunk at our friends house and she was attached to me on a few occasions and I just ignored it. We've been having a good week, no serious discussions or arguements. I figured the blown kiss was just an old reflex, but we never blew kisses in the years together, it was always good-byes with a real kiss and squeeze, so I did find that strange.
I hoped it was a good sign of things going in a better direction, but tried not to make too much of it. Wednesday night we went over to another couples house for dinner with the kids, Wife's suggestion. She said it'd be fun to break the routine and do something out of the house. While W was playing with both sets of kids and their cat after dinner, our friends asked me if things were going better since we were out together, I answered I have no idea what is going through her mind half the time so I'm just going with it.

Originally Posted by may22
Four. DBing isn't aloofness or stonewalling. It is focusing on you and becoming your best self. Not pursuing does not equal stonewalling. You can be pleasant and kind and polite, just not trying to rope her into conversations about stopping her medications and staying married. Do your own thing. GAL. Focus on your kids and being the best dad you can possibly be. Don't start R talks, but if she brings it up, listen and validate and DON'T ARGUE.

I understand this better now, trying my best to stick to it, but I do have weak moments.

Originally Posted by may22
Five. As you focus on yourself-- can you tell us behaviors that you have that may have contributed to the failure of your M? Take the SSRIs and her depression episodes completely out of the picture and just focus on YOU. I'd be interested to know if you have any 180s you'd like to make, for yourself.


This is what I find really difficult. It's difficult to take the SSRI's out of the picture, my failures were directly linked to them. I became paranoid, anxious and resentful. See things were amazing for about a year, right after the 2nd postpartum passed until she started the antidepressants. I know I need to stop focusing on that, however it's linked because that's where I fell off the rails. I noticed the change around Nov/Dec last year, I started talking to friends with experience with them, my Dr and a therapist through a work program to get some help in understanding her recovery from postpartum and previous depressions. My goal there was to be more helpful and understand what was going on. The more I read and talked the more paranoid and anxious I got, I saw the changes in her as well as her becoming more distant. I also gave her a hard time because she was becoming a slob around the house, we're both neat freaks and always had the house tidy even with the two kids (i'm talking 50/50, before someone jumps down my throat and accuses me of needing my wife to clean) she went from OCD (not really, but we'd joke about it) to not having a care in the world, one random example that's not too extreme but major for her, is her walking from the kitchen to the living area and spilling 1/3 of her coffee on the floor, seeing it, saying oops, and just walking away from it, I was like "no way, she would never!". My expirament was to leave it there to see what would happen and if she'd clean it later, sure enough, 3 days and the dried stain was still there until I cleaned it up, it's not that I mind, we always shared duties and cleaned up after each other, we share all house duties. That's just one random example, but this seemed to be the new her, its obviously less stressful way of living, which is a good thing, but still kinda shocking when you see a change like that happen. I started cleaning and picking up after her constantly, socks, trash, sometimes I'd point things out to her and she just didn't care or acknowledge.

I was the deer in the headlights, I saw the car coming and couldn't get out of the way. I hit a wall in Febuary, got even more anxious about her other behavioral changes in the spring, we started to have more discussions about it which didn't go very well, I realized I was spiralling deeper around June and I told her I needed help and had to figure out what was happening to me. Her parents also started expressing their concerns about my W around spring. I just didn't know what to do or how to approach it. I wasn't in a good place and I had no idea who my W was. She got more distant, kinda like she had her own things and mental challenges that she couldn't deal with mine as well. Late summer, things started to get even more wierd, she'd be even more distant, I'd get more confused, look up more stuff about the AD's and get more paranoid, I could see D-day coming but couldn't snap out of it. I was not myself anymore at home, work or with friends, I was consumed in trying to figure this out and fix it. She dropped the bomb mid-sept, I told her I needed time to deal with it. I was a zombie the first 3-4 weeks. The next 3 weeks absolutely flew by, which makes me panic even more.

So all that to say, I lost myself, I became resentful, I got paranoid and anxious and my resentment started to show, I close up when I keep things in, and when I do they all come out at once which is hard on the person receiving it.

It's getting late, so I'll do this quick, I haven't quite finished reading up on the 180s.

Start working out again, I'm still fit, but just don't work out as regularly. See friends and/or coworkers twice a week. See my family regularly. Give her space. Get my energy level back up. Get back my good mood and make W laugh again (does this one make sense? Or should I leave her totally out of it?)

Again, Thank you so much!
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her. If anything I think she wishes there was so it'd be easier for me to accept.
I thought this too. My husband couldn't even tell a tiny white lie. Ever. Not saying your wife is having an affair. But new job, going out with friends, new school... I don't think you can necessarily discount this as a possibility.
I mentioned this above. Thornton mentioned it. Do you have any indication whatsoever of another man involved? Even just a gut intuition? Is she guarding her phone? That's typically a big tip-off.

That's the thing, her phone and laptop are always wide open, there is zero attempt to hide anything there. If she did meet someone, it would seem she's made a deal to wait until January before starting things up. She's been pretty clear about where, what and with who she goes out, when she does, even when I don't ask. I'm still not completely convinced, I'd be an idiot if I didn't consider it.

When I ended things with her after our first year, and I re-established contact ~10 months later, she was seeing someone for a couple of months, and she refused anything physical with me until she had a chance to see the guy and end it in person. Took a few days as he was away on business. It took her 15 minutes and she called me right after. She really is the most honest person I know. But ya, I need to remain open to the possibility.
Originally Posted by costanza
Hi May22, funny coincidence, that's my bday. Thanks for the suggestions, very helpful.

Originally Posted by may22
A few quick thoughts from me.

Three. From what I have read, she's still in the house-- is that true? What are the sleeping arrangements? She's just been talking about wanting to talk to someone about starting the separation? If I have that all right, I'd take a deep breath and RELAX, man. Let her do the legwork on finding a place and moving out. You don't need to facilitate any of this. WASs are lazy (unless there is an AP pushing them, and even so those ones can STILL be pretty lazy about actually doing any work to get a D). The vets used to say she has given you a gift... the gift of TIME. You have this. Don't squander it.

Yes, we're still in the house together. We still sleep in the same bed, king size so there is more than enough space not to touch. Yes, initially she didn't want to talk to someone, but now she wants to. However I believe from the brief convo's on the matter, it'll probably be more of a seperation coach than couples counseling. She says she's already called and that we should have an appointment soon, however that was 10 days ago and nothing yet. I'm following the DB technique of not initiating the discussion, so I didn't ask for more detail. The deadline we set initially for seperation was January, so I have 2 months left under the same roof. Clocks ticking, like it isn't already stressful enough. I hope you're right, and she'll get lazy. We decided to start by keeping the kids at our house and we'd alternate in/out.

Like I said earlier, her moods fluctuate quite a bit depending the day, situation and activity. I stopped initiating any kind of plans, calls or text messages unless its absolutely required for a specific reason and I keep them short. She's been pretty regular in sending texts for various reasons, sometimes related to plans or the girls or random stuff. On Thursday she invited me to her parents for dinner with the kids, I turned her down to give her space. They live 10 minutes away, so it'd only be a 2 hour thing max. As I finished kissing my daughters at the car, W blew me a kiss as she pulled away. She hadn't shown any affection in 6 weeks, except for one afternoon 2 weeks ago, that she got a little drunk at our friends house and she was attached to me on a few occasions and I just ignored it. We've been having a good week, no serious discussions or arguements. I figured the blown kiss was just an old reflex, but we never blew kisses in the years together, it was always good-byes with a real kiss and squeeze, so I did find that strange.
I hoped it was a good sign of things going in a better direction, but tried not to make too much of it. Wednesday night we went over to another couples house for dinner with the kids, Wife's suggestion. She said it'd be fun to break the routine and do something out of the house. While W was playing with both sets of kids and their cat after dinner, our friends asked me if things were going better since we were out together, I answered I have no idea what is going through her mind half the time so I'm just going with it.

Originally Posted by may22
Four. DBing isn't aloofness or stonewalling. It is focusing on you and becoming your best self. Not pursuing does not equal stonewalling. You can be pleasant and kind and polite, just not trying to rope her into conversations about stopping her medications and staying married. Do your own thing. GAL. Focus on your kids and being the best dad you can possibly be. Don't start R talks, but if she brings it up, listen and validate and DON'T ARGUE.

I understand this better now, trying my best to stick to it, but I do have weak moments.

Originally Posted by may22
Five. As you focus on yourself-- can you tell us behaviors that you have that may have contributed to the failure of your M? Take the SSRIs and her depression episodes completely out of the picture and just focus on YOU. I'd be interested to know if you have any 180s you'd like to make, for yourself.


This is what I find really difficult. It's difficult to take the SSRI's out of the picture, my failures were directly linked to them. I became paranoid, anxious and resentful. See things were amazing for about a year, right after the 2nd postpartum passed until she started the antidepressants. I know I need to stop focusing on that, however it's linked because that's where I fell off the rails. I noticed the change around Nov/Dec last year, I started talking to friends with experience with them, my Dr and a therapist through a work program to get some help in understanding her recovery from postpartum and previous depressions. My goal there was to be more helpful and understand what was going on. The more I read and talked the more paranoid and anxious I got, I saw the changes in her as well as her becoming more distant. I also gave her a hard time because she was becoming a slob around the house, we're both neat freaks and always had the house tidy even with the two kids (i'm talking 50/50, before someone jumps down my throat and accuses me of needing my wife to clean) she went from OCD (not really, but we'd joke about it) to not having a care in the world, one random example that's not too extreme but major for her, is her walking from the kitchen to the living area and spilling 1/3 of her coffee on the floor, seeing it, saying oops, and just walking away from it, I was like "no way, she would never!". My expirament was to leave it there to see what would happen and if she'd clean it later, sure enough, 3 days and the dried stain was still there until I cleaned it up, it's not that I mind, we always shared duties and cleaned up after each other, we share all house duties. That's just one random example, but this seemed to be the new her, its obviously less stressful way of living, which is a good thing, but still kinda shocking when you see a change like that happen. I started cleaning and picking up after her constantly, socks, trash, sometimes I'd point things out to her and she just didn't care or acknowledge.

I was the deer in the headlights, I saw the car coming and couldn't get out of the way. I hit a wall in Febuary, got even more anxious about her other behavioral changes in the spring, we started to have more discussions about it which didn't go very well, I realized I was spiralling deeper around June and I told her I needed help and had to figure out what was happening to me. Her parents also started expressing their concerns about my W around spring. I just didn't know what to do or how to approach it. I wasn't in a good place and I had no idea who my W was. She got more distant, kinda like she had her own things and mental challenges that she couldn't deal with mine as well. Late summer, things started to get even more wierd, she'd be even more distant, I'd get more confused, look up more stuff about the AD's and get more paranoid, I could see D-day coming but couldn't snap out of it. I was not myself anymore at home, work or with friends, I was consumed in trying to figure this out and fix it. She dropped the bomb mid-sept, I told her I needed time to deal with it. I was a zombie the first 3-4 weeks. The next 3 weeks absolutely flew by, which makes me panic even more.

So all that to say, I lost myself, I became resentful, I got paranoid and anxious and my resentment started to show, I close up when I keep things in, and when I do they all come out at once which is hard on the person receiving it.

It's getting late, so I'll do this quick, I haven't quite finished reading up on the 180s.

Start working out again, I'm still fit, but just don't work out as regularly. See friends and/or coworkers twice a week. See my family regularly. Give her space. Get my energy level back up. Get back my good mood and make W laugh again (does this one make sense? Or should I leave her totally out of it?)

Again, Thank you so much!

I should also say, I was sleeping a lot more than before, seemed I was never getting enough, which isn't like me. I was probably getting depressed, I was definitely not as fun to be around as I had ever been earlier in the relationship. We did have two kids though, so that can also explain part of it.
So it’s interesting that you’re blaming your inability to control your emotions (anxiety, paranoia, resentment) on the SSRIs. This is a good 180 for you to work on.

I’m going to give you some advice if it comes to separation. Do your due diligence to find out if there is an affair. If there is do not do the “nesting” arrangement where you go back and forth to an apartment. Thats a cake eaters dream scenario.

Ah the blown kiss lol is right up there with the half lean in hug. Nothing to see her.

As for the phone, do you have her password?

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet?
BL,

Originally Posted by BL42
I have to say, it definitely comes across to me like you're coming out pretty harsh and hostile against costanza right out of the gate. We're all in agreement that A) the SSRIs shouldn't be his main focus and B) he should self-reflect on his contributions to the demise of the marriage, but it's not unreasonable for him to wonder whether they're a factor...most people coming to this board are trying to diagnose the problem so they can find a remedy. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a controlling/monster of a husband.
Sure you're right we're all trying to Dx our spouses when we get here. I get that. But the point of all this is, is to Dx ourselves.

A lot of LBH's and some LBW's resort to control out of anxiety because of their sitch. They don't even realize they are doing it. Nor do they realize until it's far too late that part of the reason they are here is they were resorting to control almost the entirety of the relationship out of insecurity. The sooner an LBS recognizes the behavior the sooner all of us can see if they're anxiety ridden due to the chaos and trying to control things because they can't just "let go, and let god." Or if they've been trying to control things the whole time and the WS rebelling because of that, like a teenager. Because those are two totally different types of control. Which the one off advice of detach is good for, but if it's been a relationship long affliction it's not that simple. And you're right there is the final level of control which is the one you think I'm accusing him of, the controlling ahole. We don't see a lot of them around here but every once in a while one will pop up. I don't necessarily think he's that guy but I have no way of knowing that. The details and thought process here outside of 'SSRI's are the devil' is pretty scant.

Based on the fact that C's doubling down and going with "Her SSRI's made me do it" I stand by my vibes that there is some flavor of control issue here that I can't put my finger on until I see otherwise. And since that's the case here I will do as I usually do in these situations, let other people handle it until I have anything else to say of use. Clearly, as of now, nothing I say is of use.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Clearly, as of now, nothing I say is of use.

I disagree. And other posters disagreeing with your approach should not discourage you. You called it like you saw it.

LBSs need wake up calls. Especially when they're putting focusing on the wrong things.
Originally Posted by costanza
It's difficult to take the SSRI's out of the picture, my failures were directly linked to them. I became paranoid, anxious and resentful.

Originally Posted by costanza
I realized I was spiralling deeper around June and I told her I needed help and had to figure out what was happening to me.
Whatever these docs told you, I doubt any would attribute your paranoia, anxiety, or spiraling as side effects of her medication. Dealing with change is hard, especially so if you’re used to being in the driver’s seat, and now she’s more capable. Yes, I’d focus on stabilizing your own mental health and dropping or putting much less energy into your theories about her medication. If she doesn’t like who she is on the medication, she will make changes. You fix you. You do you.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Clearly, as of now, nothing I say is of use.

I disagree. And other posters disagreeing with your approach should not discourage you. You called it like you saw it.

LBSs need wake up calls. Especially when they're putting focusing on the wrong things.
No worries, Steve. Other posters don't discourage me. Ask LH..lol. But there's only so much I can say when people double, triple and quadruple down. Until we're ready to break through and move forward there isn't much left for me to say.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
No worries, Steve. Other posters don't discourage me. Ask LH..lol.
That's it Way it will take more then a little BL kick back to keep you off lol.
Originally Posted by costanza
For the people that succeeded in rekindling the relationship, did you do anything different to this method and approach? Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?
I used the gift of time to make permanent 180s. For me, that meant learning to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen--while still continuing to be assertive. I accepted there was no going back to anything like the way things were. I hope you can let go of that notion, too!

We had underlying issues that rekindling things for a year ultimately couldn't resolve.
So many questions, so much thinking, so little time!

I'm still trying to get around to answering all the questions, as well as getting around to giving more details on my efforts to 180, my situation at the moment, etc....

Situation is in flux at the moment, we're talking a lot more, she's in a better mood, we're laughing, spending time together, and she isn't always in such a hurry to run away from home. She even started walking in on me again while showering which she hasn't done in 5-6 weeks. However she still won't change in front of me, so there is still that boundary. I did notice she gained a few pounds in a month. Not that it makes a difference to me, but at the beginning she was really taking care of herself, working out more often, etc... that has stopped the past few weeks. She's also been asking me for details about a few nights I went out, like where and with who. I don't think it actually bothers her, but maybe a little?

Did some ground work and found there was an EA with a colleague after her D-bomb, (so it's not cheating technically) it lasted a couple weeks, flirting via chat, but it didn't get physical, they ended it before it started up cause it was getting complicated. Obviously door is still open for a weak or drunken moment.

Almost two weeks ago, she mentioned she'd go see her Dr and her therapist, as well as get us an appointment with either a D-councilor or couples therapy. Nothing has happened yet as far as i know, but she's also crazy busy with work. I'm not sure I mind how much time she spends working so there is less energy for bars and cruising. I'm kinda worried what comes when work isn't soo busy, perhaps she'll be entertaining herself and leaving the house as much as a few weeks ago? But that is not my problem anymore, and i'm working towards that not bothering me as much.

Now, here's where you guys come in! I need advice please. Our stance from the start was we respect each other and the kids by putting off any dating or getting physical until January our planned separation date. Starting Jan, we were supposed to rotate the family home to keep the kids somewhere stable at least for a little while, maybe longer. Now my issue is, she was really close and willing to start up with a coworker, so i'd be niaive to think she's not actively "out there". My instinct is to tell her to move out before getting physical with anyone and then sharing the bed with me.

What's better? Keeping her close so the effects of GAL, being the best version of me, without putting any pressure on her, etc.. Or ask her to leave because I see she's already actively on the prowl? I guess telling her to leave would make it seem like it's bothering me and could be seen as me starting another discussion, so i assume i should avoid it?

Honestly, she's soo not herself these days, that I'm only a fraction as jealous as I should and/or would normally be. I guess that's a good thing?

Or should I just focus on my 180/GAL and not worry about the living arrangements and if she's dating?

All your help is soo appreciated, really wish I had more time to check-in, its so hard with the children, work and obligations.
So here's a quick list of how I messed up in the past year, maybe more:

I wasn't the strong independent person she met. I became weak. I was soo busy trying to support her through the postpartums and the kids, that I totally lost who i was. I was seeing friends very little, and hardly had any hobbies going. I let her make most decisions, so she didn't have a reason to get upset with me. I wasn't sweeping her off her feet anymore, I wasn't making her laugh as much. I confronted her about the smoking and drinking, probably not the right way. I was super supportive the first 18 months of her smoking, but then when she started the drinking and going out, I was a lot less understanding and easy going. Through all this stress, I lost my positivity, my insecurities came out. I became resentful that she'd let our house and relationship fall apart. I guess I tried to control her drinking and smoking, but she's a very strong person, controlling her is not an option. Wayfarer is way off the mark there, like on quite a few other points as well since I'm being honest. No offence Wayfarer, you made a couple of good points, and I will still take your advice when relevant. I didn't give her a safe space to open up to me, I was to quick to judge when she was going through a hard time and being open with me.
Originally Posted by constanza
Our stance from the start was we respect each other and the kids by putting off any dating or getting physical until January our planned separation date. Starting Jan, we were supposed to rotate the family home to keep the kids somewhere stable at least for a little while, maybe longer.

1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.

2) "OUR stance from the start" -- How bizarre--YOU want to start dating and getting physical with other people starting in January?? Can you explain this desire of yours better??
Costanza, your questions continue to be trying to figure out what to do to get a result. And I can tell you that if you continue to "act" just to get a desired result you'll continue to spin and do the wrong things. You GAL.... For you. You 180... For you. You work on detachment... For you. Until you get that she will feel watched and manipulated.

Do not agree to a nesting arrangement. You can ask her to leave but legally likely you cannot make her. As far as your agreement on the not dating. Sounds like more stealth trying to control her. I know you don't see that in you, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on wayfarer. She has a great nose for this kind of thing.

As far as she's too busy with work to be able to go out.... Yeah lots of LBSs have fell for that one. Unless you know where she is 24/7, there is no way for you to know for sure. Again, why focus on what you cannot control??
wayfarer,
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Sure you're right we're all trying to Dx our spouses when we get here. I get that. But the point of all this is, is to Dx ourselves.
Great thought.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
No worries, Steve. Other posters don't discourage me. Ask LH..lol.
That's it Way it will take more then a little BL kick back to keep you off lol.
Phew! I'd hate to be the reason anyone here backed off! The more points of view in these threads the better.

costanza,
Originally Posted by LH19
I’m going to give you some advice if it comes to separation. Do your due diligence to find out if there is an affair. If there is do not do the “nesting” arrangement where you go back and forth to an apartment. Thats a cake eaters dream scenario.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement.
Let me add my voice to the choir. Do not rotate the home. Your kids are young...are you going to do that for the next decade and a half? No, of course not. You're probably going along with it because you hope it'll be your way to hang on and in a few months she'll see the error of her ways and move back. Sorry to say this because it [censored] to hear, but more likely is she'll hook up with her coworker in the EA or start dating someone else and it'll be rough for you. Be strong up front. If she wants to break up the marriage and the family make her fully commit to the path and bare the brunt of it.

Originally Posted by costanza
She's also been asking me for details about a few nights I went out, like where and with who. I don't think it actually bothers her, but maybe a little?
No need to over share...
W: Where are you going? You: Out. W: Who are you going with. You: A friend.

Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.
Originally Posted by costanza
Did some ground work and found there was an EA with a colleague after her D-bomb, (so it's not cheating technically) it lasted a couple weeks, flirting via chat, but it didn't get physical, they ended it before it started up cause it was getting complicated. Obviously door is still open for a weak or drunken moment.
So now you've confirmed at least an EA, which didn't seem possible before. Hate to say it, but there's likely more. How did you verify? Did you confront her about it? How do you know it didn't become physical or that it's over?

Originally Posted by costanza
Our stance from the start was we respect each other and the kids by putting off any dating or getting physical until January our planned separation date. Starting Jan, we were supposed to rotate the family home to keep the kids somewhere stable at least for a little while, maybe longer. Now my issue is, she was really close and willing to start up with a coworker, so i'd be niaive to think she's not actively "out there". My instinct is to tell her to move out before getting physical with anyone and then sharing the bed with me.
There is absolutely no way you enforce this or can trust her to uphold her agreement. It's maybe even likely she's already physical with her coworker. Maybe she just wants the perception of separation before that comes to light - thinking you or her family or others in the community won't think as poorly of her if she separates and then "finds" this new guy.

Originally Posted by costanza
What's better? Keeping her close so the effects of GAL, being the best version of me, without putting any pressure on her, etc.. Or ask her to leave because I see she's already actively on the prowl? I guess telling her to leave would make it seem like it's bothering me and could be seen as me starting another discussion, so i assume i should avoid it?
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Costanza, your questions continue to be trying to figure out what to do to get a result. And I can tell you that if you continue to "act" just to get a desired result you'll continue to spin and do the wrong things. You GAL.... For you. You 180... For you. You work on detachment... For you. Until you get that she will feel watched and manipulated.
^What SteveLW said.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.

Can you shed some light please? How is nesting so bad? I'm still kinda new here. How does one say no exactly? I don't really see how I can expect any cooperation here? Shall I move out and give up the house? Shall I ask her to move out and buy her out? Isn't this what's best for the kids? The thought of uprooting them so fast seems so harsh.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
2) "OUR stance from the start" -- How bizarre--YOU want to start dating and getting physical with other people starting in January?? Can you explain this desire of yours better??

I might've explained wrong, we both just said "let's not make this awkward by dating people while we're still sharing the same roof and bed. However, she changed her tune pretty fast with a coworker.
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by CWarrior
1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.

Can you shed some light please? How is nesting so bad? I'm still kinda new here. How does one say no exactly? I don't really see how I can expect any cooperation here? Shall I move out and give up the house? Shall I ask her to move out and buy her out? Isn't this what's best for the kids? The thought of uprooting them so fast seems so harsh.

You say no by refusing to move out until ordered to by court order! That means you are there all the time. No voluntary living elsewhere for 2 weeks, etc. We've seen a lot of LBSs that tried this and eventually tired of the arrangement. The WAS will milk it for all they can. We've seen posters that ended up doing this for years....and hated it!

Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by CWarrior
2) "OUR stance from the start" -- How bizarre--YOU want to start dating and getting physical with other people starting in January?? Can you explain this desire of yours better??

I might've explained wrong, we both just said "let's not make this awkward by dating people while we're still sharing the same roof and bed. However, she changed her tune pretty fast with a coworker.

My guess was that this was your idea.....not hers. IE attempt to control.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Costanza, your questions continue to be trying to figure out what to do to get a result. And I can tell you that if you continue to "act" just to get a desired result you'll continue to spin and do the wrong things. You GAL.... For you. You 180... For you. You work on detachment... For you. Until you get that she will feel watched and manipulated.

Thanks, this makes sense. Gotta admit, I'm still hoping for a hail Mary, I need to get over that. Seeing how things didn't work out with her EA, it's given me some hope that she might've realized things weren't soo bad at home.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement. You can ask her to leave but legally likely you cannot make her. As far as your agreement on the not dating. Sounds like more stealth trying to control her. I know you don't see that in you, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on wayfarer. She has a great nose for this kind of thing.

This came from her though, perhaps she was just trying to go easy on me and shake me off her path with EA.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
As far as she's too busy with work to be able to go out.... Yeah lots of LBSs have fell for that one. Unless you know where she is 24/7, there is no way for you to know for sure. Again, why focus on what you cannot control??

I know and I understand, anyone can find time for a quicky pretty much anywhere. She still works from home 75% of the time, and when she's working late on-site she's one of the presenters on a Zoom call with hundreds of people, I have access to the feed btw, and I can confirm she is where she says she is. Of course there is also time for lunches and dinners, so yes, there are tonnes of opportunities. She also goes out at least one night a week, and stays out really late and drinks a lot. No doubt she's looking for a good time.
Originally Posted by costanza
Can you shed some light please? How is nesting so bad? I'm still kinda new here. How does one say no exactly? I don't really see how I can expect any cooperation here? Shall I move out and give up the house? Shall I ask her to move out and buy her out? Isn't this what's best for the kids? The thought of uprooting them so fast seems so harsh.
Your initial posture should be: if she is interested in separation or divorce, she can move to the couch and she can move out. Why should you unseat yourself as the paterfamilias if she wants out or is having an affair? The longer this drags on, the weaker your position becomes. You will compromise, make yourself smaller, meet her needs and then she'll walk all over you. Don't wait for her to act. Time to take control back. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity.
Originally Posted by constanza
I'm still kinda new here. How does one say no exactly? I don't really see how I can expect any cooperation here? Shall I move out and give up the house? Shall I ask her to move out and buy her out? Isn't this what's best for the kids? The thought of uprooting them so fast seems so harsh.
Constanza, as Steve says, becoming assertive (controlling you, not controlling her) is simple. You don't move out. You don't date other people. If and only if she asks--"No, I'm not moving out." "No, I don't want to date other people." No big talks. No big arguments. The kids continue to have their home. The kids continue to see you everday. You don't want her to, but she's free to move out, or date other people, or eventually file for divorce and a proposal to split the family home on her timeline. These are her problems to solve on her own as she likes and on her own timeline as she wants to end the marriage and you don't. Your focus on being the best constanza you can be. That's your Hail Mary.
Originally Posted by costanza
Shall I move out and give up the house?
NO! Do not move out. Or, at the very least don't move out without consulting a L and having a separation agreement in place regarding custody and financials.

Originally Posted by costanza
How is nesting so bad?
You're life in constantly in-flux. You have no way to ensure she doesn't bring OM into your home or the apartment I'd assume you'd share. It's not sustainable anyway. Maybe for a month or 3 or 6, but your kids are 2 and 4, not 17. If she's determined to leave it won't change anything.

Originally Posted by costanza
How does one say no exactly?
"I've decided not to move out."
"You're welcome to move out if you'd like, but I plan to stay in the house."

Originally Posted by costanza
Isn't this what's best for the kids? The thought of uprooting them so fast seems so harsh.
Your W is on a path to disrupt your kids' lives. Unfortunately if she's determined to go down that path, you can not change that. You have to stand firm for your own best interests and be a rock for the kids.
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by LH19
I’m going to give you some advice if it comes to separation. Do your due diligence to find out if there is an affair. If there is do not do the “nesting” arrangement where you go back and forth to an apartment. Thats a cake eaters dream scenario.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement.
Let me add my voice to the choir. Do not rotate the home. Your kids are young...are you going to do that for the next decade and a half? No, of course not. You're probably going along with it because you hope it'll be your way to hang on and in a few months she'll see the error of her ways and move back. Sorry to say this because it [censored] to hear, but more likely is she'll hook up with her coworker in the EA or start dating someone else and it'll be rough for you. Be strong up front. If she wants to break up the marriage and the family make her fully commit to the path and bare the brunt of it.

Ok, so I see this is a really bad idea, can I have examples of how it’s a really bad idea? What happens exactly? I can understand that it makes an affair so much easier to accomplish. But it would also give me the freedom to get my life back at the same time wouldn’t it? If she refuses to leave the house, and I also stay, it’d be an incredibly toxic environment. So the only way around it would be to go see lawyers and have it split legally. This would place a massive financial burden before we have a chance to prepare properly while also reducing the quality of living on everyone, especially the children, wouldn’t it? What don’t I see?

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
Did some ground work and found there was an EA with a colleague after her D-bomb, (so it's not cheating technically) it lasted a couple weeks, flirting via chat, but it didn't get physical, they ended it before it started up cause it was getting complicated. Obviously door is still open for a weak or drunken moment.

So now you've confirmed at least an EA, which didn't seem possible before. Hate to say it, but there's likely more. How did you verify? Did you confront her about it? How do you know it didn't become physical or that it's over?

She left her computer unlocked so I helped myself. Didn’t take long to find a chat with a work colleague. Saw the whole thing about, needing to be careful about crossing the line, the guy also has a GF, they decided to end it at least for now. I don’t believe it’s permanently over, sounds like they were really into each other.
Originally Posted by costanza
Ok, so I see this is a really bad idea, can I have examples of how it’s a really bad idea? What happens exactly? I can understand that it makes an affair so much easier to accomplish.
Before I answer where do you plan on staying when you are not in the family home?

Originally Posted by costanza
But it would also give me the freedom to get my life back at the same time wouldn’t it?
What do you mean get your life back?

Originally Posted by costanza
If she refuses to leave the house, and I also stay, it’d be an incredibly toxic environment.
Why? She's home with the kids you are out GALing like a mad man. Your home with kids she can do whatever she wants. Most likely out with OM.
Originally Posted by costanza
So the only way around it would be to go see lawyers and have it split legally.

Not necessarily.
Originally Posted by costanza
This would place a massive financial burden before we have a chance to prepare properly while also reducing the quality of living on everyone, especially the children, wouldn’t it?

Anyway you look at it yours and the kids life's are going to be flipped upside down.
Originally Posted by costanza
What don’t I see?
See above.

Originally Posted by costanza
She left her computer unlocked so I helped myself. Didn’t take long to find a chat with a work colleague. Saw the whole thing about, needing to be careful about crossing the line, the guy also has a GF, they decided to end it at least for now. I don’t believe it’s permanently over, sounds like they were really into each other.
You have no idea how predictable this is Costanza. I can tell you the ending if you would like me to.
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by LH19
I’m going to give you some advice if it comes to separation. Do your due diligence to find out if there is an affair. If there is do not do the “nesting” arrangement where you go back and forth to an apartment. Thats a cake eaters dream scenario.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
1) Don't nest ("rotate the family home"). I know people who have. It's a horrible arrangement for the left-behind spouse. Find your backbone and say no before it's too late.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement.
Let me add my voice to the choir. Do not rotate the home. Your kids are young...are you going to do that for the next decade and a half? No, of course not. You're probably going along with it because you hope it'll be your way to hang on and in a few months she'll see the error of her ways and move back. Sorry to say this because it [censored] to hear, but more likely is she'll hook up with her coworker in the EA or start dating someone else and it'll be rough for you. Be strong up front. If she wants to break up the marriage and the family make her fully commit to the path and bare the brunt of it.

Ok, so I see this is a really bad idea, can I have examples of how it’s a really bad idea? What happens exactly? I can understand that it makes an affair so much easier to accomplish. But it would also give me the freedom to get my life back at the same time wouldn’t it? If she refuses to leave the house, and I also stay, it’d be an incredibly toxic environment. So the only way around it would be to go see lawyers and have it split legally. This would place a massive financial burden before we have a chance to prepare properly while also reducing the quality of living on everyone, especially the children, wouldn’t it? What don’t I see?

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
Did some ground work and found there was an EA with a colleague after her D-bomb, (so it's not cheating technically) it lasted a couple weeks, flirting via chat, but it didn't get physical, they ended it before it started up cause it was getting complicated. Obviously door is still open for a weak or drunken moment.

So now you've confirmed at least an EA, which didn't seem possible before. Hate to say it, but there's likely more. How did you verify? Did you confront her about it? How do you know it didn't become physical or that it's over?

She left her computer unlocked so I helped myself. Didn’t take long to find a chat with a work colleague. Saw the whole thing about, needing to be careful about crossing the line, the guy also has a GF, they decided to end it at least for now. I don’t believe it’s permanently over, sounds like they were really into each other.

During my wife's first EA in 2005, I installed spy software on our PC and caught their IMs to each other. I had inquired about this guy listed in her AOLIMs contacts. So after they had a pretty suggestive exchange my wife excused herself to go make our daughter lunch. She told him I had asked about him and suggested some evening they have a completely harmless IM discussion so she could show me there was nothing to worry about. Of course I ended up confronting her that night because little did she know I was seeing everything.

The point? When a LBS talks about finding the electronics unattended and unlocked it makes me question if the WAS set it up that way so you would find it and find the innocent discussion..... To get you to drop your guard. I find unattended and unlocked electronics too convenient. Especially knowing how guarded WASs tend to be with that stuff.
Originally Posted by costanza
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?
I would ask her what she is looking to get out of this counseling.
Originally Posted by costanza
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?

"I've decided that couples counseling at this point would be a waste of time. I'm committed to individual counseling for myself."

Simple. Short. To the point.
Originally Posted by costanza
But it would also give me the freedom to get my life back at the same time wouldn’t it?
Stop waiting to live your life, and go live your life (GAL). Report back on what you chose to do!

Originally Posted by constanzas
If she refuses to leave the house, and I also stay, it’d be an incredibly toxic environment.
”Refuses”—still??—costanza, your attempts to control her have failed. STOP! DB in the nutshell—take ownership of yourself and be the best person you can be, stand for the relationship you want, and let her be her and do her. It can work. Imagine how much more attractive that would make you than trying to tell her what to do and blaming your faults on her. Several reconciliations here. You have to be willing to make a change from the status quo. She shouldn’t have to refuse, because you shouldn’t be telling her what yo do. You should not be toxic. If she’s toxic to you, set boundaries that control and protect you. If she’s toxic to the kids document, report, and take custody.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
Ok, so I see this is a really bad idea, can I have examples of how it’s a really bad idea? What happens exactly? I can understand that it makes an affair so much easier to accomplish.
Before I answer where do you plan on staying when you are not in the family home?

A friends spare room. He lives alone in a 4 bedroom house, also divorced 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
But it would also give me the freedom to get my life back at the same time wouldn’t it?
What do you mean get your life back?

GAL, rest, meditate, focus on me and hobbies, start seeing people/get some affection. Is that a bad plan? Do I need to refrain from getting some affection?

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
If she refuses to leave the house, and I also stay, it’d be an incredibly toxic environment.
Why? She's home with the kids you are out GALing like a mad man. Your home with kids she can do whatever she wants. Most likely out with OM.

ok, but that sounds like a pretty crappy house to live in.

Originally Posted by costanza
So the only way around it would be to go see lawyers and have it split legally.

Not necessarily.
Originally Posted by costanza
This would place a massive financial burden before we have a chance to prepare properly while also reducing the quality of living on everyone, especially the children, wouldn’t it?

Anyway you look at it yours and the kids life's are going to be flipped upside down.
Originally Posted by costanza
What don’t I see?
See above.[/quote]

Originally Posted by costanza
She left her computer unlocked so I helped myself. Didn’t take long to find a chat with a work colleague. Saw the whole thing about, needing to be careful about crossing the line, the guy also has a GF, they decided to end it at least for now. I don’t believe it’s permanently over, sounds like they were really into each other.
You have no idea how predictable this is Costanza. I can tell you the ending if you would like me to.[/quote]
Ya, I can imagine. Either way, she's out there, nothing i can do about it.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by costanza
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?

"I've decided that couples counseling at this point would be a waste of time. I'm committed to individual counseling for myself."

Simple. Short. To the point.

How about if its divorce counselling? Same reply?
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?
I would ask her what she is looking to get out of this counseling.

I'm assuming taking next steps towards a D.
Ask her what her intentions are with the counseling.

Ah getting some affection in the bachelors pad. You are just as bad as her. Apparently this marriage doesn't mean anything to either of you. Probably best to come to a amicable split and move on.
Yes, "get some affection" sounds icky in the context of a married guy professing to want to save his marriage. This coming from a guy with no hangups about casual sex--a month ago I turned a first hiking date into sex in the woods. You won't woo your wife back with that attitude.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
This coming from a guy with no hangups about casual sex-
CWs I wouldn't say you have no hang-ups to casual sex.
C,

You need to decide if you're standing for this MR or moving on first. This wishy washy stuff is going to get you no where but continually spinning. Are you in or are you out? I have no investment either way, but the way we advise you differs greatly. And what you should be doing right now differs greatly. You need to decide what you want here, or no one can help you. Not us, not an IC, not your friends or family. You have to know what you want and be ready to commit to that decision because neither road is pleasant or easy.

If you're out go ahead and leave the house. Go move in with your buddy. Get a lawyer. File for D. And make your OLD profiles. If you don't want to be married any more, and you don't want to do this with your W any more than take control of your life, not hers, and move on. Looks like you have a half way decent escape plan reasoned out. You'll still need to iron out details about your kids being with you in your buddy's house and probably some other custody details. You'll have to start thinking about dividing up the belongings and finances. And of course you'll need to start packing. But once you handle those basics you can be on your way.

If you're still in I gotta ask why are you making all these plans to leave? Your job as an LBS if you're choosing to stand is to be the husband and father you've always been. Minus the sweet dating kind of husband-y things. You go on with your life as normal. You're W lives in her indecision and chaos as your roommate and you live your life in your home, sleeping in your bed, being the rock your children need, working on you and waiting it out. If you give this an appropriate timeline she'll either p!ss or get off the pot. But the point of standing for your MR isn't so you can "get affection" else where. It's because you believe in your marriage even if your W doesn't. It's so you can say you were willing to do what ever it took to save this. Including relinquishing control and waiting patiently to see what happens. IHS isn't easy, but it's doable. It's beyond doable. There's people here who were/are in IHS for years. I wouldn't recommend taking it that far, but it only becomes toxic if you contribute to the toxicity. If you relinquish control and focus on you and the kids, it's simply a roommate situation. Maybe it's a gateway to 2 households, maybe it's a gateway to MR 2.0. But it's a reset everyone in the house needs where there are established boundaries and the ground work for the next step whatever it may be gets laid.

If you think a physical separation is best while you stand for your MR that's fine too. A lot of people go that route as well. But that's not a free for all if you are planning on standing. This isn't a place of tit for tat. You will have to take the high road and be the better person. You will have to maintain moral superiority. Not so you can hold it over W's head but if you ever want there to be a chance at you saving this MR you don't get to sleep with a bunch of women and think that's calling it even. The playing field evens out in recon. Not before.

This is a lot to think about. And I, myself, did the IHS while I prepared for D just in case. I separated our finances, and got a L. I had separation papers drawn up. I worked out what my new budget would look like. I made plans for my new life with or without my H. I never gave up on him even though I was close, often. I really never gave up on our MR. But I'm prudent. I knew the risks, and planned for every possible outcome. That's how I gained control back.

Pick a path. Pick a path with a secondary route. Pick a path with a time line. Pick a path with conditional options to pick a different one. Do what ever feels right, but you have to pick a path. Sooner rather than later.
Originally Posted by LH19
Ask her what her intentions are with the counseling.
I'm all for MC, (is this also a bad thing?) however i'm not sure i want to participate in divorce counselling. Given her blatant lack of honesty, and if all she'll give is divorce planning, I don't see the point in pretending we're friends and that we want to get along. I think i'd prefer we just make plans to separate. Is it ok to tell her that was not what i agreed to, and refuse? Or is that still showing too much attachment?



Originally Posted by LH19
Ah getting some affection in the bachelors pad. You are just as bad as her. Apparently this marriage doesn't mean anything to either of you. Probably best to come to a amicable split and move on.
In my earlier posts I was clear on working on this relationship, but I was convinced to GAL. I honestly figured part of GAL was getting out there, not just hobbies, but completely diving back into your life before the relationship.
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by LH19
Ask her what her intentions are with the counseling.
I'm all for MC, (is this also a bad thing?) however i'm not sure i want to participate in divorce counselling. Given her blatant lack of honesty, and if all she'll give is divorce planning, I don't see the point in pretending we're friends and that we want to get along. I think i'd prefer we just make plans to separate. Is it ok to tell her that was not what i agreed to, and refuse? Or is that still showing too much attachment?
Oh boy.
Costanza: What are your goals from this counseling? To work on the marriage or facilitate divorce?
Wife: To facilitate a divorce.
Costanza: No thanks I am not interested.
Wife: To work on the marriage
Constanza: Ok. Let me think about it.



Originally Posted by costanza
In my earlier posts I was clear on working on this relationship, but I was convinced to GAL. I honestly figured part of GAL was getting out there, not just hobbies, but completely diving back into your life before the relationship.
Come on man. Read Wayfarer's post a couple times. You don't have an option that doesn't suck. You have to pick the least sucky option of all the sucky options you have and learn to accept it.
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by costanza
I just got a fwd email from W concerning the divorce counselling or MC. We'll have an appointment in the next 24-48 hours. I'm pretty sure its divorce counselling. Not sure how to approach this. Since she's already out there dating, and not being honest about it. Is there even a point to attending this together? I just don't see the point.

I'm leaning towards writing exactly that. But at the same time I understand I need to stop arguing, validate, and actively listen. What's the next step in this case?

"I've decided that couples counseling at this point would be a waste of time. I'm committed to individual counseling for myself."

Simple. Short. To the point.

How about if its divorce counselling? Same reply?

Pretty much.

Maybe more "I refuse to participate in something I am morally opposed to. I will be committing to IC, however."
Originally Posted by costanza
I'm all for MC, (is this also a bad thing?) however i'm not sure i want to participate in divorce counselling. Given her blatant lack of honesty, and if all she'll give is divorce planning, I don't see the point in pretending we're friends and that we want to get along. I think i'd prefer we just make plans to separate. Is it ok to tell her that was not what i agreed to, and refuse? Or is that still showing too much attachment?

You are all for MC because you haven't dropped expectations. MC with a WAS is = to divorce counseling. That's what they will use it for.
C,

Divorce counseling is very helpful for people who would like to be somewhat amicable for their kids and who both are on board with divorce. If you both want that I'd follow through but that doesn't seem to be the case here. You need to find out exactly what this appointment is for. MC, divorce counseling or discernment counseling. If it's discernment counseling I strongly, strongly suggest you get on board. The other 2 not so much. You're not all in on a divorce there's no point to divorce counseling for you. She's not all in on staying married there's no point in MC for her.

As to the GAL, #1 where did you get the impression GAL meant dating? #2 Wtf was your life before marriage? Look I'm not a prude and my H's body count is frighteningly high, so please don't take that as judgement, but when they say taking your life back they don't mean taking it back to your early 20s. More like who you were you when you were seriously dating but not living together yet. Getting a life doesn't mean new love life or voracious s3x life. It means a life that isn't wrapped up in your spouse's coming and going. One that isn't wrapped up in your MR. You know you can like go out and do things and not be trying to get laid. Like people go bowling because it's fun. Or dance because it's fun. Or catch up with old friends over a drink because it's fun.
Originally Posted by costanza
In my earlier posts I was clear on working on this relationship, but I was convinced to GAL. I honestly figured part of GAL was getting out there, not just hobbies, but completely diving back into your life before the relationship.

You really need to learn what GAL means. It is not dating. It is not acting single. It is going out and reconnecting with old and new MALE friends. All of the advice that is worth anything on GAL insists you stay away from the single's scene. It is about having a life outside of being the husband and father that you still are. Hanging out with the guys. Rekindling old interests and hobbies. Staying busy.

No where in the advice did GAL mean go out and start dating.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
C,

You need to decide if you're standing for this MR or moving on first. This wishy washy stuff is going to get you no where but continually spinning. Are you in or are you out? I have no investment either way, but the way we advise you differs greatly. And what you should be doing right now differs greatly. You need to decide what you want here, or no one can help you. Not us, not an IC, not your friends or family. You have to know what you want and be ready to commit to that decision because neither road is pleasant or easy.

If you're out go ahead and leave the house. Go move in with your buddy. Get a lawyer. File for D. And make your OLD profiles. If you don't want to be married any more, and you don't want to do this with your W any more than take control of your life, not hers, and move on. Looks like you have a half way decent escape plan reasoned out. You'll still need to iron out details about your kids being with you in your buddy's house and probably some other custody details. You'll have to start thinking about dividing up the belongings and finances. And of course you'll need to start packing. But once you handle those basics you can be on your way.

If you're still in I gotta ask why are you making all these plans to leave? Your job as an LBS if you're choosing to stand is to be the husband and father you've always been. Minus the sweet dating kind of husband-y things. You go on with your life as normal. You're W lives in her indecision and chaos as your roommate and you live your life in your home, sleeping in your bed, being the rock your children need, working on you and waiting it out. If you give this an appropriate timeline she'll either p!ss or get off the pot. But the point of standing for your MR isn't so you can "get affection" else where. It's because you believe in your marriage even if your W doesn't. It's so you can say you were willing to do what ever it took to save this. Including relinquishing control and waiting patiently to see what happens. IHS isn't easy, but it's doable. It's beyond doable. There's people here who were/are in IHS for years. I wouldn't recommend taking it that far, but it only becomes toxic if you contribute to the toxicity. If you relinquish control and focus on you and the kids, it's simply a roommate situation. Maybe it's a gateway to 2 households, maybe it's a gateway to MR 2.0. But it's a reset everyone in the house needs where there are established boundaries and the ground work for the next step whatever it may be gets laid.

If you think a physical separation is best while you stand for your MR that's fine too. A lot of people go that route as well. But that's not a free for all if you are planning on standing. This isn't a place of tit for tat. You will have to take the high road and be the better person. You will have to maintain moral superiority. Not so you can hold it over W's head but if you ever want there to be a chance at you saving this MR you don't get to sleep with a bunch of women and think that's calling it even. The playing field evens out in recon. Not before.

This is a lot to think about. And I, myself, did the IHS while I prepared for D just in case. I separated our finances, and got a L. I had separation papers drawn up. I worked out what my new budget would look like. I made plans for my new life with or without my H. I never gave up on him even though I was close, often. I really never gave up on our MR. But I'm prudent. I knew the risks, and planned for every possible outcome. That's how I gained control back.

Pick a path. Pick a path with a secondary route. Pick a path with a time line. Pick a path with conditional options to pick a different one. Do what ever feels right, but you have to pick a path. Sooner rather than later.

This post is amazing, thank you so much Wayfarer.

To answer your first paragraph, I want my relationship, I want to work at it. I'm not looking for the easy way out, I'm willing to sacrifice.

Moving in with my buddy part-time, is the option if we choose to nest. If nesting doesn't work, I'd want to keep the house, pretty sure she wouldn't want it. However, now I'm confused, most people are saying as the LBS I need her to do the work and file papers, etc....

The "plans to leave" are if we proceed with nesting. I wasn't aware of all the negative aspects. So now I need to reconsider that plan. This paragraph contains the answer I was looking for, which was, how do I react to living with my x-wife if she's out partying and dating while we're under the same roof. This part definitely seems like the hardest.

I didn't realize this approach was an option longterm: "It's because you believe in your marriage even if your W doesn't. It's so you can say you were willing to do what ever it took to save this. Including relinquishing control and waiting patiently to see what happens. IHS isn't easy, but it's doable." It seemed to me that would show some weakness and the opposite of moving forward & GAL. I need to read up more on boundaries.

As for taking the high road, its wild how the automatic reaction is opposite to what seems to actually work. Just like you've guys have said all along. When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago, and considering how well the past 7-10 days have gone between us, and that there was no news on the counselling front, I was actually considering confronting her with "look, this isn't working, I've been approached by an old friend/x-GF about seeing each other and I'm gonna go ahead with it, I just wanted to be honest and up front." This is true, that we've been in contact, but nothing more than messaging and I have not accepted or made a move. I actually backed off. My thinking was that it would make my W p!$$ or get off the pot. But after reading you guys, i guess not? I can see how this could be playing games.

I'm gonna have to study your last two paragraphs, I'll definitely need some guidance. Any suggested reading concerning how to go about this.
Ahhh now messaging the old girl friend. Wayfarer great job sniffing this guy out.

Take the focus off your W. Concentrate on you and the kids. GAL doing anything that doesn't involve your ex girlfriend and affection. Just breathe for awhile. Right now the ball is in your Ws court and it looks like she is making moves to dissolve the marriage. Decide what you want and why you want it and we can help you move forward.

The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own.

In that case, they have to spend zero time focused on getting away with you and can right away shift into wondering where you've gone. That's what you want.

In terms of her feeling differently -- when you first met she didn't instantly want to marry you, then you got married and she didn't want to leave you, then at some point she did want to leave you. She was stubborn the whole time, made three decisions there and changed her feelings about the first two. That should prove to you that her feelings do change, and despite how she feels now, or what she says now, she may feel and do completely different things in the future. You have hard evidence of that.

The ride is just beginning. She won't be done with you for a long time, nor will you be done with her. Since you have young kids together you will be intermeshed for 18+ years.
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago,
You are like George Costanza lol. Your stories don't add up George. We can't help you if we don't have all the facts.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago,
You are like George Costanza lol. Your stories don't add up George. We can't help you if we don't have all the facts.

The EA was after the D-bomb. I asked earlier, is it still considered cheating if it happens after the split is announced?
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago,
You are like George Costanza lol. Your stories don't add up George. We can't help you if we don't have all the facts.

The EA was after the D-bomb. I asked earlier, is it still considered cheating if it happens after the split is announced?
Well number 1 95% of bombs are initiated because there is someone else. Number 2 that’s up for you to decide. WWs will try to justify there behavior and say that’s not cheating. At this point does it even matter? Especially because you’re doing the same thing.
Originally Posted by costanza
To answer your first paragraph, I want my relationship, I want to work at it. I'm not looking for the easy way out, I'm willing to sacrifice.
Fair enough, bro. But from what I've seen here you're barely willing to put yourself through minor inconvenience if W doesn't have an immediate response, so you better be very very sure about that before you commit to standing. There is a lot of swallowing your pride, eating sh!t sandwiches, and not allowing your ego to do the driving. If you're willing to actually sacrifice for standing, we're here to support you through that. But standing isn't easy. Neither road is but standing, in and of itself, takes a whole lotta of discipline and introspection. I personally don't know if you're up to that. But you do.

Originally Posted by costanza
Moving in with my buddy part-time, is the option if we choose to nest. If nesting doesn't work, I'd want to keep the house, pretty sure she wouldn't want it. However, now I'm confused, most people are saying as the LBS I need her to do the work and file papers, etc....

The "plans to leave" are if we proceed with nesting. I wasn't aware of all the negative aspects. So now I need to reconsider that plan.
Nesting is a terrible idea unless the two of you can handle some very very strict rules and be ok with policing each other, which almost no couple who's falling apart at the seams can. On top of it in the event of the D why would put yourself in the position of be court ordered out of the house until she has a place of her own? She wants to leave she can leave. It's not your job to help her design her new life. You don't want to leave then you stay.

Originally Posted by costanza
This paragraph contains the answer I was looking for, which was, how do I react to living with my x-wife if she's out partying and dating while we're under the same roof. This part definitely seems like the hardest.
Standing is hard. It's probably one of the hardest things you'll ever do if it's what you choose to do here. But you get to leave with the satisfaction that you tried, and wanted to try, and no matter how it ended you were willing to do what it took to repair things even if that meant doing nothing.

Originally Posted by costanza
I didn't realize this approach was an option longterm: "It's because you believe in your marriage even if your W doesn't. It's so you can say you were willing to do what ever it took to save this. Including relinquishing control and waiting patiently to see what happens. IHS isn't easy, but it's doable." It seemed to me that would show some weakness and the opposite of moving forward & GAL. I need to read up more on boundaries.
This has zero to do with boundaries. Do you tell a roommate when they can come and go? Do you tell them who they can and can't spend time with? Do you worry about what your roommate ate for dinner? Or who they ate it with? No you don't. Because you're not their keeper, or their parent. If you want to do this this isn't about boundaries as you are still thinking of them. They are not intended for your W they are for you. Physical boundary that I articulated my H could not sleep in the bed with me while he wanted to be sleeping with someone else. Emotional boundaries that I didn't articulate, no conversation outside of business: kids and bills, he was not privy to my inner life, thoughts or emotions even if they were about him, when I GAL'd I didn't announce where I was going or what I was doing, or with whom, I just made sure he knew he was in charge of dinner and pick up for the kids. I think you need a better understand of an IHS is or even a S because it isn't weakness to let your spouse live their life. It isn't weakness to stand for your marriage. It's weakness to let their choices affect how you live yours. It's weakness to try to control your spouse. It's weakness to try to trick them back into the MR. It's weakness to change things about yourself solely for the purposes of trying to convince your spouse to love you and stay.

Originally Posted by costanza
As for taking the high road, its wild how the automatic reaction is opposite to what seems to actually work. Just like you've guys have said all along. When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago, and considering how well the past 7-10 days have gone between us, and that there was no news on the counselling front, I was actually considering confronting her with "look, this isn't working, I've been approached by an old friend/x-GF about seeing each other and I'm gonna go ahead with it, I just wanted to be honest and up front." This is true, that we've been in contact, but nothing more than messaging and I have not accepted or made a move. I actually backed off. My thinking was that it would make my W p!$$ or get off the pot. But after reading you guys, i guess not? I can see how this could be playing games.
What in the actual *&$@?? There is so much to unpack there I literally don't even know where to start. Honey, I'm going to need you to re-read DR like at least twice. And probably read through every single one of the newbie links again.

A revenge affair is all fun and games until it's not. And that's not counterintuitive. Every one who gets themselves in one knows exactly what they're doing and why they are doing it. They also are well aware of the fall out. But scorched earth feels good when nothing else really does. So let's not pretend it's counterintuitive. Let's be honest about what this is and then move the eff on.

If you choose to stand for the MR you are going to have to block that woman on literally everything. You opened a flood gate not a window. It's your job to close it.

Originally Posted by costanza
I'm gonna have to study your last two paragraphs, I'll definitely need some guidance. Any suggested reading concerning how to go about this.
I'll need you to be more specific about what you need guidance for in order to know what I'm suggesting.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement.
I made this mistake. Do not nest. I can elaborate if you would like. Just ask.
The couple I knew who nested, she was the WAS and he was the LBS. His mental health spiraled through a year of hell as he found condoms, hairs, etc. in the trash, bed, shower, etc. It ended in a messy legal battle a year later when he was ready to end the arrangement.
Originally Posted by costanza
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by costanza
She promises there is no one else, and she's always been so brutally honest that I believe her.

Originally Posted by costanza
When I learned about W's EA that ended (temporarily?) a month ago,
You are like George Costanza lol. Your stories don't add up George. We can't help you if we don't have all the facts.

The EA was after the D-bomb. I asked earlier, is it still considered cheating if it happens after the split is announced?

I didn't know that announcing a split ended a marriage. I thought it was filing for divorce and going through the divorce process.

Heck yes it is cheating until the marriage is no more.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by costanza
The EA was after the D-bomb. I asked earlier, is it still considered cheating if it happens after the split is announced?
I didn't know that announcing a split ended a marriage. I thought it was filing for divorce and going through the divorce process.

Heck yes it is cheating until the marriage is no more.
Exactly. You're MARRIED! You can't just choose to say "I'm unhappy" one day and then go date other people for awhile and have it not be cheating.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Do not agree to a nesting arrangement.
I made this mistake. Do not nest. I can elaborate if you would like. Just ask.
As everyone else has said...do not nest.

Originally Posted by costanza
I was actually considering confronting her with "look, this isn't working, I've been approached by an old friend/x-GF about seeing each other and I'm gonna go ahead with it, I just wanted to be honest and up front.
If you honestly want any hope the marriage will survive this is a terrible idea. At best manipulative to tell her, at worst perhaps a bit revealing to your real motives/issues. Why would your x-GF reach out? How would she know you & your W are having issues? Suspicious timing, no?

Look, it's a blow to the ego to have our W in an affair with another man...I know. You're maybe fearful she'll move on before you, maybe you have a desire for revenge...etc., but it's not a good path. Take time to step back and work on yourself and focus on your kids. They don't need both mommy and daddy running off into fantasy land right now.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
You need to decide if you're standing for this MR or moving on first...
Originally Posted by LH19
Take the focus off your W. Concentrate on you and the kids. GAL doing anything that doesn't involve your ex girlfriend and affection. Just breathe for awhile. Right now the ball is in your Ws court and it looks like she is making moves to dissolve the marriage. Decide what you want and why you want it and we can help you move forward...
Re-read the full posts Wayfarer and LH's made above in the thread.
Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by costanza
I was actually considering confronting her with "look, this isn't working, I've been approached by an old friend/x-GF about seeing each other and I'm gonna go ahead with it, I just wanted to be honest and up front.
If you honestly want any hope the marriage will survive this is a terrible idea. At best manipulative to tell her, at worst perhaps a bit revealing to your real motives/issues. Why would your x-GF reach out? How would she know you & your W are having issues? Suspicious timing, no?

Look, it's a blow to the ego to have our W in an affair with another man...I know. You're maybe fearful she'll move on before you, maybe you have a desire for revenge...etc., but it's not a good path. Take time to step back and work on yourself and focus on your kids. They don't need both mommy and daddy running off into fantasy land right now.

Not sure how I missed this! Wow.

costanza what would be the point of confronting her and saying that? Is the hope/expectation that she would say "Oh wait! I don't want to lose you! Don't do it!"?? That is not DBing. That is manipulation. That is trying to "scare her straight". And it would not end well. Even IF you get the reaction you would want, you could put no trust into it. Why? Because likely she needs you as Plan B. So her reaction wouldn't be a genuine "I don't want to lose you", it would be a "I am not ready to give up my safety net, so until I find something better please don't do this".

Secondly, even though you cannot count on her living up to the "we won't date until January" (which is a ridiculous agreement as stated previously), it is agreement you made! The new you should be living up to his word, no matter what she is doing or not doing. You are above all of that. That is the 180s and self-improvements you are making, a man of integrity, not spite and vengefulness.

Also, WASs LOVE when their LBS goes out and starts seeing someone else, even if they make a play to be against it. Why? It lets them off the hook. Many a LBS has stood in D court, and when the WAS' infidelity came up for whatever reason, the WAS quickly said "the LBS did it too!" And even if it doesn't come up in D court, it certainly will come up with family, friends, and someday your kids. "Momma, what happened between you and daddy?" "Daddy and I were unhappy so we started seeing other people." Now she may say that anyway, but certainly you don't want it to be true! So you stay above her deplorable behavior by being a man only a fool would leave. And threatening to date an old flame ain't that.
Telling her about an ex you’re talking to…that’s fairly manipulative, and a last ditch effort that will provide the opposite results you want unless your goal is to help her feel better about her behavior. What’s going to happen is you’re going to validate her behavior in her mind, push any chance right out the door, and odds are she’ll paint herself as the victim. Guarantee you’ll hear at some point that she was going to give it another shot until you cheated on her.

This is basic, two wrongs don’t make a right and attempting to hurt her feelings or scare her into acting right won’t have any positive lasting effects.

Ask yourself, why even open the can of worms talking to this woman if you want your marriage to work?
I haven't provided an update in a while, I've been GALing my brains out! Nephews hockey game, visiting parents, rented a cabin with my buddy for 3 days hiking and playing chess (as much as focus permitted given the situation).

I've also been spending as much time possible reading more threads as opposed to writing on this site to understand the different situations and suggestions.

My situation has developped a little. She's clear that we're separating and moving out. My wife has checked out. No MC, no discussions, no trial separation. She wants to plan the next steps for january, which is moving out or nesting. I'm letting her bring it up and will do my best to avoid nesting. Date is planned for January, if we make it until then. She doesn't sleep in the MBR with me anymore. Its all in, no looking back. I understand I need to get onboard and support/enable this. We'll keep seeing each other since we have our two daughters, so it will be the long game.

I'm doing the steps:

- Never initiate contact, live or via cell.
- Be strong, calm and confident
- Don't go out of my way for her, yet be supportive, kind and happy.
- Make plans, stay busy, don't share info or what i'm doing.
- Once the kids are in bed, I avoid the room she's in, unless I need something from there.
- Clear communication, no flip-flop/unsure replies or decisions. Be the man I was the first 10 years of our relationship.

A few things I'm not sure about....

1- Should I go to divorce counselling with her? Is there anything in there that can be beneficial? Or is it ok to say, I'm not into it. I originally asked us to go to MC, but she shot that down, later suggested we could go, but she booked us divorce counselling as opposed to marriage counselling. I really love what Wayfarer suggested about discernment counseling. I really want to look into that, however I see that it can be seen as weak and not a good idea to ask her to attend if she's already checked out of the relationship. Any suggestions?

2- Is it considered weak or just being pleasant if I ask how a major, publicly known project she's working on is going in a supportive way? She's usually still polite with me, however she has no feelings left that can be hurt by our separation, that's just me. I feel its kinda rude and distant to just ignore someone you live with and have a 12 year history with. Doesn't it look like I'm playing a game if I just ignore her in that way? I don't hate her, I just hate the situation. I understand how we ended up here, I just wish she didn't give up so fast and brutally.

3- She's already single in her head and living that way. She's told me to start dating, that our relationship is over and its not cheating at this point. Drunken late night party's are forecasted the next few weeks. I'm asking myself if I can deal with her stumbling in at all hours of the night (and morning) under the same roof, or if I ask her to move out before our planned move out date in January? I've read that's its smart to stay under the same roof if possible. At what cost? I don't feel she'll respect the situation.

4- Also, I've read other threads where people suggest refusing all one on one invitations as well as extended family invites. Wouldn't it help with showing her how i've changed if we did spend some time together with others as well as alone? Or do I need to follow the instructions and stay on course?

5- An example: If I head out at lunch time and pick up something to eat for myself, is it ok to offer to pick her something up as well? Or is that being a lost nice guy?

6- Any suggestions from experienced members before she moves out? anything specific I should try to do before? I'll be straight up, my ideal long-term scenario is we reconcile. I know that means i need to let her go and find herself, as well as other men for the next while, however long that is. The long game is played through the kids I guess. I just feel that the time we're under the same roof should probably be used strategically? Or is that manipulative and false hope on my end? I think I know the answer.

Gotta run now, but I'll be back later for more updates and details, just wanted to put this out there for now. Thank you for reading and listening.
1. You can certainly ask her to go to discernment counseling with zero expectations of her accepting. I would decline any other type of divorce counseling.

2. It’s definitely ok to be polite and ask her about her project. I just wouldn’t linger around long because you should be out living your life.

3. I wouldn’t ask her to leave because it’s not something you can enforce if she says no. Boundaries will definitely be needed.

4. I would refuse all one on one invites (doubt you’ll get any) and decline all extended family invites. Nothing you can do or show her will make her change her mind. As far as changes right now even if they are real will be seen as manipulative. Go back and read my first post to you.

5. Certainly alright to offer. I wouldn’t recommend making a habit of it.

6. So if you’re playing the long game don’t burn any bridges. When she’s home you go out until you separate. I can’t stress how I think nesting would be a terrible idea. My ex wanted to separate and nest and I told her I would rather divorce. Never regretted that decision for a second.

If you are playing the long game statistics say it takes minimum of 2 years for a WS to change their mind.

One of our popular posters has often posted that in his research he believes 90% of WS will eventually want to reconcile. Based on your posts of ex girlfriend’s and the need for affection my guess is you will not wait this out. Only time will tell.
Originally Posted by costanza
and will do my best to avoid nesting.
I strongly suggest reaching into her purse and talking your balls back.


W:"Lets talk about nesting!"
H:"Nothing to talk about. I decided, I will not be nesting. I also will not be moving out, I like it here." Do not show your emotions.

She will respond. Validate her feelings.



At some point, this is all about negotiations. She wants out, not you. She is free to move out. Do not attempt to control this. Set her free.


If you have confirmation that she is engaged in a secrete affair with OM, then I would be strongly encouraging her to find her own place ASAP.
Originally Posted by costanza
Is it considered weak or just being pleasant if I ask how a major, publicly known project she's working on is going in a supportive way?
If this is a 180 for you then ask.
Originally Posted by costanza
6- Any suggestions from experienced members before she moves out? anything specific I should try to do before? I'll be straight up, my ideal long-term scenario is we reconcile. I know that means i need to let her go and find herself, as well as other men for the next while, however long that is. The long game is played through the kids I guess. I just feel that the time we're under the same roof should probably be used strategically? Or is that manipulative and false hope on my end? I think I know the answer.

Become the best version of you. Be the best dad ever. Make positive changes to your behavior and the way you interact with everyone. Be attractive and seductive. Do not attempt to control her. Do not allow disrespect. Control yourself. Do not make these changes to attract her, do it for you. Do not let her control or manipulate you. Take your time to think about things and make decisions. Run things past us as needed.


Only you know what 180's you can do. If you were passive, be assertive, if you were assertive be more passive.

Do you have a new friend group? Can you have them over?

Have you made the MBR yours, More manly?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by costanza
and will do my best to avoid nesting.
I strongly suggest reaching into her purse and talking your balls back.

W:"Lets talk about nesting!"
H:"Nothing to talk about. I decided, I will not be nesting. I also will not be moving out, I like it here." Do not show your emotions.

She will respond. Validate her feelings.

At some point, this is all about negotiations. She wants out, not you. She is free to move out. Do not attempt to control this. Set her free.
Hi Constanza,

In the thick of things, everything may seem complicated, but some things are not. You control you. If you realize that, the outcome is as simple as saying "No." Drop control fantasies, illusions that if you acquiesce, negotiate, guilt, manipulate, get her to change meds, etc. you can control her. Own you. Like wayfarer and LH, I'm curious if you will stand. If you do, consistent actions would be a strong "No" when she mentions you dating other people in January, and cutting contact with your XGF instead of leaving options open. Look forward to learning about you through your actions.
costanza,
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by costanza
and will do my best to avoid nesting.
I strongly suggest reaching into her purse and talking your balls back.
Agreed! What does "do my best to avoid it" even mean? “Do or do not. There is no try." Be strong. Own your house. If she brings it up, just say: "I've decided not to move out.", and then don't move out.

1-Divorce Counseling: "Unless you're willing to work on our marriage, there is no point in pursuing counseling."

2-Work Project: A quick mention of it or if she brings it up say "congrats" and then continue to go about your life.

3-Single:
Originally Posted by costanza
She's already single in her head and living that way.
Very true. Except that's in her head. In real life she's married and cheating on you.

Originally Posted by costanza
She's told me to start dating, that our relationship is over and its not cheating at this point.
Wait until you do and she ells her family, friends, and your kids you cheated on her as well.

Originally Posted by costanza
Drunken late night party's are forecasted the next few weeks. I'm asking myself if I can deal with her stumbling in at all hours of the night (and morning) under the same roof
That's going to be extremely uncomfortable. You'll likely find separation to be a relief from IHS.

Originally Posted by costanza
or if I ask her to move out before our planned move out date in January? I've read that's its smart to stay under the same roof if possible. At what cost? I don't feel she'll respect the situation.
You could pack up her stuff one night she's out partying and have it in the garage when she comes back. I'm assuming she's saying January so she can have family Christmas together? The thing is you're most likely heading for separation no matter what and you can't change it. You think maybe you can if you're nice and if you change she'll see the light in the next month or two and change her mind, but...odds are slim to none. The sooner you get strong now and stop acting in fear of what's to come the better.

4-Invites: Don't go with her family. I made that mistake...going for ice cream to to Ex-FIL's birthday when she really didn't want me there. I should've gone for a run or to the gym instead.

5-Lunch Offer: Don't bother, nice guy. She's cheating on you and divorcing you. She can get her own lunch.

6-Suggestions for IHS:
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by costanza
Any suggestions from experienced members before she moves out? anything specific I should try to do before? I'll be straight up, my ideal long-term scenario is we reconcile. I know that means i need to let her go and find herself, as well as other men for the next while, however long that is. The long game is played through the kids I guess. I just feel that the time we're under the same roof should probably be used strategically? Or is that manipulative and false hope on my end? I think I know the answer.
Become the best version of you. Be the best dad ever. Make positive changes to your behavior and the way you interact with everyone. Be attractive and seductive. Do not attempt to control her. Do not allow disrespect. Control yourself. Do not make these changes to attract her, do it for you. Do not let her control or manipulate you. Take your time to think about things and make decisions. Run things past us as needed.
^THIS!

Originally Posted by LH19
If you are playing the long game statistics say it takes minimum of 2 years for a WS to change their mind.
Right. The long game is...really long. Best to get your mind wrapped around this. I think that's a big aspect the LBS's don't appreciate initially after BD / in the beginning of their sitches. I certainly didn't. Like COVID, which happened to line up with my sitch very closely, I initially thought "we'll get through this in a couple months". A year and a half later...
BL, awesome post. Just one point of clarification. Unfortunately in most places he cannot just kick her out of the house. He can kick her out of the MBR (if she is still in there). By packing her stuff up and moving it into another room. When she protests "While you are acting like a single person, and cheating on me, you cannot sleep in the MBR."
Originally Posted by BL42
You could pack up her stuff one night she's out partying and have it in the garage when she comes back.
No, you can't do that. That is probably illegal. I think this as well as packing her stuff up and moving it out of the MBR all smacks of trying to control her and tell her what to do. "you can't sleep in the MBR while you are cheating on me." Who is the LBS to say this? And how is it enforceable? I think you can say I'd strongly prefer that you to sleep elsewhere, but when it comes down to it, if the LBS doesn't want to share a bed with the WS and the WS won't leave the MBR, the LBS is free to enforce their own boundaries of not sleeping with their cheating spouse by sleeping in a different room. Boundaries protect you, not try to control the other person. Forcing her to sleep in a different room by packing up her $hit while she's out is a manipulative control move and anti-DB. Sorry, Steve-- think you missed on this one. (Though it is better than trying to pack up her stuff while she's out and putting it in the garage-- that is ten times worse. And won't look good to the judge if you have to go that route.)

That all being said, I also support staying in the MBR (if she wants to move out, be my guest) and staying in the house (ditto). I would NOT nest either. If she wants out of the M, she's free to sleep in the guest room, find her own place, etc. I can't recall if you've consulted an attorney yet or not-- if you haven't, I would so that you can start to plan out what the financial split will look like and thinking about what is best for you and the kids going forward. You might end up moving out of the house, but I don't see why you would do it now, if you want to stay married.

Regarding counseling-- I did discernment counseling and I would have recommended it while she was still wavering, but now that she's saying she's committed to D it feels like a waste of time. It is explicitly designed to help a couple decide if they want to split or work on the M. Seems like that ship has sailed (for now).

Did you shut off all communication with your ex GF? Or are you guys still in touch?
SteveLW/may22,

Originally Posted by SteveLW
BL, awesome post. Just one point of clarification. Unfortunately in most places he cannot just kick her out of the house. He can kick her out of the MBR (if she is still in there). By packing her stuff up and moving it into another room. When she protests "While you are acting like a single person, and cheating on me, you cannot sleep in the MBR."

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by BL42
You could pack up her stuff one night she's out partying and have it in the garage when she comes back.
No, you can't do that. That is probably illegal. I think this as well as packing her stuff up and moving it out of the MBR all smacks of trying to control her and tell her what to do.
For the record I never suggested he kick her out of the house (E.g., change the locks...whatever), which he likely does not have the right to do that at this point. I simply said an option was packing up her stuff and moving it out of the MBR to the garage or basement or wherever. Certainly fair to debate whether that's controlling behavior and whether it's proper DB'ing technique, but (with the standard "consult an L" caveat) I highly doubt it's illegal...no laws to say you can't move clothes and shoes from one room to another.

Also, if you read costanza's latest post his W's already not sleeping in the MBR on her own accord:
Originally Posted by costanza
She doesn't sleep in the MBR with me anymore.

My main point was she's having an affair and his sitch is most likely heading towards a separation soon regardless of what he does, yet he's coming across with these little questions as scared of that happening and thinking if he buys her lunch and asks about her work project maybe she might stay. Better he act strong and get strong now and A) know it's going to happen and B) he'll be alright regardless. Personally, in retrospect I wish I had packed up my ExW's stuff and left it for her with a note when she came back late night from hooking up at work with OM1. Doubt it would've changed the end result, but I'd feel much stronger about standing up to the bad behavior. Anyway, just my $0.02...feel free to disagree.
Thanks, BL. I'd missed that about her already moving out of the MBR.

I still think that moving someone's stuff around and trying to do things to manipulate them into certain actions (like moving out) is attempting to control and not really DBing. I also think it smacks of an emotional response and doesn't convey strength-- it feels more like a temper tantrum. (And WHY would you go to the trouble of packing up her stuff? Let her take care of her own $hit! Now if she's moved out and left things around that are getting in your way, absolutely makes sense. But to preemptively pack it up and put it in the garage -- to me, that conveys weakness, not strength. Strength would be not giving a $hit and going about your own business and building your best possible life, which probably means you are too busy to waste your time packing someone else's stuff for them.)

In my case, I will say I'm very glad I *didn't* give into the temptation to respond emotionally many, many times during the course of my situation. This board helped me tremendously with this. I'd say regardless of whether your desire is to stand or to D, learning to control your emotions and respond rationally is a big plus to DBing.
Originally Posted by may22
I still think that moving someone's stuff around and trying to do things to manipulate them into certain actions (like moving out) is attempting to control and not really DBing.
I agree with May here. I do think there are circumstances that may warrant these actions but not in this case. She has pretty much moved out of the master bedroom and seems to be respectful towards Costanza in the process. His long term goal is recon so there no sense in burning any bridges. Strength comes in not begging, pleading and wishing her well (indifference).

Originally Posted by may22
Strength would be not giving a $hit and going about your own business and building your best possible life, which probably means you are too busy to waste your time packing someone else's stuff for them.)
This is why the recon rate is so low. LBS $uck at this part of it.

Originally Posted by may22
This board helped me tremendously with this. I'd say regardless of whether your desire is to stand or to D, learning to control your emotions and respond rationally is a big plus to DBing.
Learning to control your emotions will change your life more then anything else you can learn in the process. I am getting good at it but still a WIP.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together. Thanks!
Re controlling emotions, Unchien, made a really great quote once that has stuck with me. I can’t recall exactly, but something along the lines of pausing before reacting to emotionally charged situations. As he quoted “that pause my friend, is control”. For me that pause needs to be a few hours+, but it works.
Originally Posted by BL42
SteveLW/may22,

Originally Posted by SteveLW
BL, awesome post. Just one point of clarification. Unfortunately in most places he cannot just kick her out of the house. He can kick her out of the MBR (if she is still in there). By packing her stuff up and moving it into another room. When she protests "While you are acting like a single person, and cheating on me, you cannot sleep in the MBR."

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by BL42
You could pack up her stuff one night she's out partying and have it in the garage when she comes back.
No, you can't do that. That is probably illegal. I think this as well as packing her stuff up and moving it out of the MBR all smacks of trying to control her and tell her what to do.
For the record I never suggested he kick her out of the house (E.g., change the locks...whatever), which he likely does not have the right to do that at this point. I simply said an option was packing up her stuff and moving it out of the MBR to the garage or basement or wherever. Certainly fair to debate whether that's controlling behavior and whether it's proper DB'ing technique, but (with the standard "consult an L" caveat) I highly doubt it's illegal...no laws to say you can't move clothes and shoes from one room to another.

Also, if you read costanza's latest post his W's already not sleeping in the MBR on her own accord:
Originally Posted by costanza
She doesn't sleep in the MBR with me anymore.

My main point was she's having an affair and his sitch is most likely heading towards a separation soon regardless of what he does, yet he's coming across with these little questions as scared of that happening and thinking if he buys her lunch and asks about her work project maybe she might stay. Better he act strong and get strong now and A) know it's going to happen and B) he'll be alright regardless. Personally, in retrospect I wish I had packed up my ExW's stuff and left it for her with a note when she came back late night from hooking up at work with OM1. Doubt it would've changed the end result, but I'd feel much stronger about standing up to the bad behavior. Anyway, just my $0.02...feel free to disagree.

Ok, I took it wrong. I just think there are things you have to be careful with legally. Certainly support costanza finding his inner-strength and standing up for himself. And would certainly support him kicking her out of the MBR if she weren't already sleeping elsewhere. And I even support him boxing her things up and moving to which ever room she is sleeping in.
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SSRI''s and divorce - WAS (2)
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