#19 - Still working through Ring & Piecing

[SteveLW]

Previous thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2924002&#Post2924002

[SteveLW]

Last post from previous thread:

A topic that I keep coming back to when thinking about my own sitch and in so many others' sitches, is why the LBS holds on so tight to the WAS. I know LH has done a masterful job of describing this phenomenon in past with his description of the loss of feeling of control. And I think that is a big part of it. But I think there is another human dynamic that comes into play here as well. And that is the "I can make a person like me" mindset.

I have a family member that has self-esteem issues. When they feel like someone doesn't like them the get over the top with trying to make that person like them. They will hound the other person, trying to show the other person how "cool" they are. They try to be funny, as well as being an all around fun person to be around.

Of course this behavior has the opposite effect. The harder this person tries, the other person starts to loathe them more and more! The efforts come across as disingenuous, and the other person feels smothered whenever they have to be around this person. Sound familiar?

One thing I learned growing up around this family member was to not push myself on other people. If someone doesn't like me, then I just avoid that person. I don't want to be a burden to that other person, I don't want to push myself on them, and I certainly do not want them to feel smothered when we do cross paths. I have a very close friend (he and I hung out just last night), that many many years ago when we first started to interact through mutual friends, he didn't like me. I backed way off, never pursued this person as a friend, and eventually through our interactions a friendship did develop, and he is one of my best friends now.

This is why the advice for DBing is to back off of the WAS. Remove all pursuit and pressure. Go into "as if" mode, and just go out and live your own life. One of the things I have learned watching this family member over the decades is that you cannot make someone like you. What you can do is go about your own business, and eventually they may get interested and start coming back around to liking you. But smothering, and pursuing, and pressuring will just drive them further away.

As I've pointed out before in my own situation, my first two days after BD I defaulted to pursuit, pressure, badgering, questioning, pushing myself on her, etc. And all it did was push her further away. Due to our first situation 12 years before, on day 3 I remembered DBing and backed way off. I instituted the dropping all pressure and pursuit, and left her alone and started to just live my life. I am not saying that is what saved my MR, but it certainly didn't hurt it.

[BL42]

SteveLW,

Good thoughts on the self-esteem/getting people to like you. I think you're right that it can play apart along with LH's loss of control theory, and several others.

The push-pull / work hard to get them back / dropping pressure & pursuit dynamics are certainly interesting and something I hadn't considered much before, but have given a lot of thought post-BD on this forum and other resources.

How are things with you and your wife? Are things still well? Any personal updates to share on your own sitch?

[ovrrnbw]

Last post from previous thread:

A topic that I keep coming back to when thinking about my own sitch and in so many others' sitches, is why the LBS holds on so tight to the WAS. I know LH has done a masterful job of describing this phenomenon in past with his description of the loss of feeling of control. And I think that is a big part of it. But I think there is another human dynamic that comes into play here as well. And that is the "I can make a person like me" mindset.

I have a family member that has self-esteem issues. When they feel like someone doesn't like them the get over the top with trying to make that person like them. They will hound the other person, trying to show the other person how "cool" they are. They try to be funny, as well as being an all around fun person to be around.

Of course this behavior has the opposite effect. The harder this person tries, the other person starts to loathe them more and more! The efforts come across as disingenuous, and the other person feels smothered whenever they have to be around this person. Sound familiar?

One thing I learned growing up around this family member was to not push myself on other people. If someone doesn't like me, then I just avoid that person. I don't want to be a burden to that other person, I don't want to push myself on them, and I certainly do not want them to feel smothered when we do cross paths. I have a very close friend (he and I hung out just last night), that many many years ago when we first started to interact through mutual friends, he didn't like me. I backed way off, never pursued this person as a friend, and eventually through our interactions a friendship did develop, and he is one of my best friends now.

This is why the advice for DBing is to back off of the WAS. Remove all pursuit and pressure. Go into "as if" mode, and just go out and live your own life. One of the things I have learned watching this family member over the decades is that you cannot make someone like you. What you can do is go about your own business, and eventually they may get interested and start coming back around to liking you. But smothering, and pursuing, and pressuring will just drive them further away.

As I've pointed out before in my own situation, my first two days after BD I defaulted to pursuit, pressure, badgering, questioning, pushing myself on her, etc. And all it did was push her further away. Due to our first situation 12 years before, on day 3 I remembered DBing and backed way off. I instituted the dropping all pressure and pursuit, and left her alone and started to just live my life. I am not saying that is what saved my MR, but it certainly didn't hurt it.

I really agree with this. The problem for me was being so emotionally attached that I was unable to see how desperate and pathetic I was acting.

Not only does it work better to allow people to want to be around you, it is better for your state of mind too.

[SteveLW]

SteveLW,

Good thoughts on the self-esteem/getting people to like you. I think you're right that it can play apart along with LH's loss of control theory, and several others.

The push-pull / work hard to get them back / dropping pressure & pursuit dynamics are certainly interesting and something I hadn't considered much before, but have given a lot of thought post-BD on this forum and other resources.

How are things with you and your wife? Are things still well? Any personal updates to share on your own sitch?

Things are great! We are empty nesters. We are partners. We are getting along better than at any other time in our R, including while we were dating. When we were dating we were terrible at conflict resolution, often freezing each other out. Now we talk through things. We work together. It is so much better.

No real updates to share. We continue to just try to improve as spouses each and every day. She is doing much better as a wife, I have done a complete 180 as a husband. And it is just working.

[SteveLW]

I really agree with this. The problem for me was being so emotionally attached that I was unable to see how desperate and pathetic I was acting.

Not only does it work better to allow people to want to be around you, it is better for your state of mind too.

And the principle works with all Rs, not just your love R. I even find that being emotionally detached in work relationships pays huge dividends. And as you said, it is better for your state of mind. Life is so much more fulfilling when you are in control of your own happiness.

[BL42]

Glad to hear it!

[neffer]

Hey bro!

Just keep shining dear friend. Keep shining there, where your family stands. And keep shining here, lighting the DB road.

Respect!

[SteveLW]

Hey bro!

Just keep shining dear friend. Keep shining there, where your family stands. And keep shining here, lighting the DB road.

Respect!

Thanks neffer! I love the perspective you bring to this board. Would love to see you post more often. One of my favorites!

[neffer]

Just waiting for the after COVID new normality. I have been into 1 1/2 years of scientific work craziness here.

Be back soon, I hope.

[SteveLW]

Steve the bottom line is you have no if your W had a PA (50/50 at best) and how you would have reacted. You had a young daughter at the time. You shouldn't judge those who decided to stick it out to keep their families together especially if there is remorse after the PA.

As Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

First, where did I judge anyone?

Second, I was clear this is MY boundary. And that there are others that share that boundary and should not be judged for it.

Third, for someone that accuses me of judging you sure do a lot of judging!

You are a different kind of cat, LH!

[SteveLW]

You’ve been in your wife’s shoes before; does that help you to relate? It sounds like it might have gone either way for you, depending on your feelings towards your spouse, your feelings towards AP, when particular circumstances or opportunities arose. Perhaps same for her? If you see a PA as a dealbreaker, it’s interesting to think the continuation of your marriage was sometimes decided by which events coincided—a die roll. Or maybe the confluence of events was fate?

Traveler, I believe in a high power that had a lot to do with. His plan was, for whatever reason, for her and I to not go all the way with the EAs. I do think LH is right that EAs are PAs waiting to happen. But sometimes, eventually, they fade out before getting to that point. The struggle for me is that I interrupted both of hers. Mine fizzled out naturally before the PA stage. Would hers have? Or would they have ended up in a PA? Only that higher power knows!

But yes, I does help me relate. That mine ended without being interrupted is the big differentiator, and why I still sometimes struggle with the "what if" if I hadn't caught her in the EA stage.

[LH19]

Steve the bottom line is you have no if your W had a PA (50/50 at best) and how you would have reacted. You had a young daughter at the time. You shouldn't judge those who decided to stick it out to keep their families together especially if there is remorse after the PA.

As Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

First, where did I judge anyone?

Second, I was clear this is MY boundary. And that there are others that share that boundary and should not be judged for it.

Third, for someone that accuses me of judging you sure do a lot of judging!

You are a different kind of cat, LH!

Personally, I don't know how people put up with physical cheating.

The statement above is judgment. I have to keep you honest Steve. You make these statements like "reconciling is harder then going through D". You don't know that and hopefully never will. You have never had to miss a day without your daughter you didn't choose to. You make these statements about dating after divorce and how it should be and no sex before marriage blah blah blah when you have no clue how it is out there. You want to call me on my $hit go ahead. I'm a big boy. I just get tired sometimes with the holier than thow bs that's all. I know you mean well but sometimes I have to respond. Rant over lol.

[Cadet]

Rant over lol.

You are entitled to rant all you want.

I will say that from what I see Steve normally gives pretty good advice and certainly has done his homework.

[LH19]

I will say that from what I see Steve normally gives pretty good advice and certainly has done his homework.

I can't disagree with this statement. Sometimes IMO he goes where he doesn't belong and I keep him honest.

[SteveLW]

Steve the bottom line is you have no if your W had a PA (50/50 at best) and how you would have reacted. You had a young daughter at the time. You shouldn't judge those who decided to stick it out to keep their families together especially if there is remorse after the PA.

As Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

First, where did I judge anyone?

Second, I was clear this is MY boundary. And that there are others that share that boundary and should not be judged for it.

Third, for someone that accuses me of judging you sure do a lot of judging!

You are a different kind of cat, LH!

Personally, I don't know how people put up with physical cheating.

The statement above is judgment. I have to keep you honest Steve. You make these statements like "reconciling is harder then going through D". You don't know that and hopefully never will. You have never had to miss a day without your daughter you didn't choose to. You make these statements about dating after divorce and how it should be and no sex before marriage blah blah blah when you have no clue how it is out there. You want to call me on my $hit go ahead. I'm a big boy. I just get tired sometimes with the holier than thow bs that's all. I know you mean well but sometimes I have to respond. Rant over lol.

LH again, you are wrong. I'd have to go back and look at the quote. However, there is no way I could even say that since I've never gone through a D! (Dang, it is ground hog's day or something?? LOL You are like a WAS, you drag up the past!)

I believe in dating without sex until marriage. I am not afraid to continue that stance.

How about this. You ignore my posts. And I will ignore yours. Cool feature of the board I recently discovered. The latter is already done.

I will say this, I think your behavior here is pretty telling for some of the problems you have in the past. It is ok to disagree. It not okay to be disagreeable.

Have a great life, I do pray for you as I pray for everyone here. And will continue.

[SteveLW]

Rant over lol.

You are entitled to rant all you want.

I will say that from what I see Steve normally gives pretty good advice and certainly has done his homework.

Thanks Cadet. It dawned on me that I need to go back and read Divorce Busting again. I've read it through twice, and have read sections multiple times.

The other thing I try to do is not directly disagree with other's advice. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our perspectives. I applaud anyone that his here trying to help LBSs through one of the most difficult portions of their life.

Also, as I've said before, I really think you and job for your time commitment to this forum. I really do give a lot of credit to this forum for helping me through my sitch. I miss some of the old posters that 2x4'd me and gave me such great advice.

[LH19]

No need to pray for me I am good. Just in the future know your audience. Everyone here including yourself was cheated on and yet we all tried to keep our families together so we could see our kids every day. No need to try to shame us for that. I will look for that post but since you have 9,000 it may take awhile lol.

[Traveler]

That mine ended without being interrupted is the big differentiator, and why I still sometimes struggle with the "what if" if I hadn't caught her in the EA stage.

"What evil lurks in the hearts of men?!" You know yours, but can never fully know hers. She didn't PA--she was interrupted. You didn't PA--you weren't interrupted. Makes sense you wonder what could've been. I've never EA'd nor PA'd, nor knowing been EA'd or PA'd. 80% that's my moral code and those I pick. 20% that's circumstances. I can't answer if under the right circumstances she would have PA'd or whether you would have PA'd. The key thing is you found out, you reacted decisively, and she was receptive. Quite the gift horse! Maybe something was watching out for you.

[SteveLW]

That mine ended without being interrupted is the big differentiator, and why I still sometimes struggle with the "what if" if I hadn't caught her in the EA stage.

"What evil lurks in the hearts of men?!" You know yours, but can never fully know hers. She didn't PA--she was interrupted. You didn't PA--you weren't interrupted. Makes sense you wonder what could've been. I've never EA'd nor PA'd, nor knowing been EA'd or PA'd. 80% that's my moral code and those I pick. 20% that's circumstances. I can't answer if under the right circumstances she would have PA'd or whether you would have PA'd. The key thing is you found out, you reacted decisively, and she was receptive. Quite the gift horse! Maybe something was watching out for you.

Oh I am thankful that it never got that far. For her and for me. Me probably more so. Yes, EAs and PAs are against my moral code too. I know that sounds contradictory, but sometimes I do not live up to my moral code. I fail. I did in having the EAs. One of the EAPs has contacted me multiple times over the years wanting to reconnect, and I have made it clear to her every time that is no longer an option for me. So I have improved in that area and refuse to ever let something like that happen again. My W has said the same thing, that she purposely avoids that. So I think we have both grown in that area.

As I said, there were moments during both EAs that it could have easily gone PA for me, but didn't for one reason or another. More than once it was me pulling back due that moral code. I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I was getting that thrill, that ego boost from it and couldn't quite end it completely. In the first one, I ended it. In the second, the EAP ended it.

Traveler, I agree that it was gift horse, and retrospect how it ended prior to PA is less important than the fact that it ended before PA. I think that is your overall point. But I truly believe that it was someONE watching out for US!

Sorry for the stream of consciousness type response! It helped me work through what I said earlier to just think and type.

[Valeska19]

Steve,
The past is important. It is often an indicator of what is to come.

Your choices are your own but I think this conversation between you and LH is good. You both often say the same thing towards newcomers just from different lenses. I encourage you to not ignore each others posts because in all honesty - it ain't about either of you. It's about helping these folks! We never know which post, which perspective, or which debate could be the one that helps heartbroken people find answers to their questions, appropriate anger to make the hard decision, the inkling of self worth to continue fighting. If us vets can't challenge/squabbling with each other and take the heat in the hot chair - how can we expect these newbies to do it when we blast them with 2x4s?

Also - I don't disagree with LH that you do bring up the point that a PA is a deal breaker for you often. I am not trying to say that you intentionally shame anyone but I am curious to know why you bring it up. Knowing that 98% of the people on this board was cheated on and 100% of them came here willing to adjust that boundary to save their family - how does adding that piece of info serve them in their current journey? Could you see how it might provoke shame in them?

These are honest questions.

Traveler, I believe in a high power that had a lot to do with. His plan was, for whatever reason, for her and I to not go all the way with the EAs. I do think LH is right that EAs are PAs waiting to happen. But sometimes, eventually, they fade out before getting to that point. The struggle for me is that I interrupted both of hers. Mine fizzled out naturally before the PA stage. Would hers have? Or would they have ended up in a PA? Only that higher power knows!

But yes, I does help me relate. That mine ended without being interrupted is the big differentiator, and why I still sometimes struggle with the "what if" if I hadn't caught her in the EA stage.
.

Speaking of hot seat and 2x4s - here's mine for you... lol


Get off your high horse Steve. Your ability to stop your EA on your own doesn't make you better than your wife and any time you get angry or wonder "what if" - you seriously need to give yourself a swift kick in the pants and tell your ego to calm down.

If you wanted to see if she would have "chose you on her own" - you should have STFU and let her continue on her journey to see what she chose. YOU stepped in and exposed the relationship. If you want to doubt and be mad - be mad are yourself. It was after all...your decision to get involved.

The facts are you both betrayed the marriage with EAs. You both chose to work it out and chose to stay married. Sounds pretty equal to me.

[SteveLW]

I didn't end my second EA, the EAP did. I am not on a high horse. I am simply stating that my impulsiveness to confront immediately means I will have to live with never knowing how far she would have went. It doesn't make me better than her. And I apologize Valeska if that was my messaging. IT wasn't my intent, just that I will go to my grave, one way or another, never knowing for sure. I don't deserve better than that. My actions caused all of it, including her EAs. I have been open with the fact that I was a terrible husband. Maybe the worst of any LBS that this board has ever seen.

As far as my mentioning that a PA would be a dealbreaker for me, I don't mention it as often as you characterize it. I try to pick my spots especially for a LBS that is struggling with whether or not they should even bother to try to save their marriage. Sorry if that offends you. Again, there is no intent on my part there.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate your perspective.

[LH19]

Thanks V. For the record I would never block him nor am I going to back down from him. Sometimes his hypocrisy is too much for me and I have to challenge him.

[Valeska19]

I didn't end my second EA, the EAP did. I am not on a high horse. I am simply stating that my impulsiveness to confront immediately means I will have to live with never knowing how far she would have went. It doesn't make me better than her. And I apologize Valeska if that was my messaging. IT wasn't my intent, just that I will go to my grave, one way or another, never knowing for sure. I don't deserve better than that. My actions caused all of it, including her EAs. I have been open with the fact that I was a terrible husband. Maybe the worst of any LBS that this board has ever seen.

So if you aren't on a high horse... Why do you struggle over it? What power does having that answer have?

As far as my mentioning that a PA would be a dealbreaker for me, I don't mention it as often as you characterize it. I try to pick my spots especially for a LBS that is struggling with whether or not they should even bother to try to save their marriage. Sorry if that offends you. Again, there is no intent on my part there.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate your perspective.

I am not offended... but I think you could make the same point w/o bringing up that fact.

[Ready2Change]

Your choices are your own but I think this conversation between you and LH is good. You both often say the same thing towards newcomers just from different lenses. I encourage you to not ignore each others posts because in all honesty - it ain't about either of you. It's about helping these folks! We never know which post, which perspective, or which debate could be the one that helps heartbroken people find answers to their questions, appropriate anger to make the hard decision, the inkling of self worth to continue fighting.

I typed up something similar, but you worded it better!

[SteveLW]

I didn't end my second EA, the EAP did. I am not on a high horse. I am simply stating that my impulsiveness to confront immediately means I will have to live with never knowing how far she would have went. It doesn't make me better than her. And I apologize Valeska if that was my messaging. IT wasn't my intent, just that I will go to my grave, one way or another, never knowing for sure. I don't deserve better than that. My actions caused all of it, including her EAs. I have been open with the fact that I was a terrible husband. Maybe the worst of any LBS that this board has ever seen.

So if you aren't on a high horse... Why do you struggle over it? What power does having that answer have?

As far as my mentioning that a PA would be a dealbreaker for me, I don't mention it as often as you characterize it. I try to pick my spots especially for a LBS that is struggling with whether or not they should even bother to try to save their marriage. Sorry if that offends you. Again, there is no intent on my part there.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate your perspective.

I am not offended... but I think you could make the same point w/o bringing up that fact.

Good question. Not something I want to struggle with. And something I'll continue to work through in in IC.

As far as bringing up the boundary, maybe you and my stalker (LH) would know better, but usually I just mention that having a deal breaker of a PA is a legitimate dealbreaker that many people have. Not sure I always mention it is a dealbreaker for me. If I do again there is no hidden agenda. Nothing nefarious.

I also disagree vehemently with disagreeing with one another in a confrontational way in other LBSs threads. I think it is not a help to the LBS. And can turn into a thread hijack. That's why I typically do not engage when someone directly disagrees. I will continue that tact moving forward.

[SteveLW]

Your choices are your own but I think this conversation between you and LH is good. You both often say the same thing towards newcomers just from different lenses. I encourage you to not ignore each others posts because in all honesty - ! We never know which post, which perspective, or which debate could be the one that helps heartbroken people find answers to their questions, appropriate anger to make the hard decision, the inkling of self worth to continue fighting.

I typed up something similar, but you worded it better!

I especially agreevwith V19 on this: "it ain't about either of you. It's about helping these folks"

That's why I'm here. The only reason. And also why I believe calling out other vets I disagree with is wholly unproductive.

[Ginger1]

Steve , if she came to you today and confessed she her EA was actually a PA too, what would you do?

[SteveLW]

Steve , if she came to you today and confessed she her EA was actually a PA too, what would you do?

Wow that's a good question. I think I'd have a very difficult time with the fact that the last 4 years were a lie. And that she put my health at risk by lying about it. But what's so good about your question is it reinforces what others have said about not knowing what you'd do until you have to face it.

The logical side of me says that I'd stick to my deal breaker, but finding out 4 years later definitely throws an interesting wrinkle.

[Spiral]

While you certainly don't know what you'd do until you have to face it, there's also the element of timing. How you respond to situations changes over time and as you grow. If you're faced with a PA out of the blue, it's tough to gather your bearings and stick to your deal breakers. It also takes time to detach. I think the only reason that I was able to do it was because my sitch was hopeless from the start and remained that way until the end. And, of course, I chose to rely on the advice that both you and LH provided. But different perspectives and opinions are important for the LBS to read. I know I agree with you on some things and LH on others.

-Spiral

[Ginger1]

Honestly, I didn’t understand why On OB’s thread when he said his bro cheated on his wife and his wife left you out of the blue when no one at all even mentioned the wife, you jumped in and said “let’s not forget, the wife left because a PA is a deal breaker for most” not one person even questioned her as being wrong for leaving and you just felt the need to make that grand statement.

I’ll be honest, you do mention it a lot. It sounds like a moral dilemma within in yourself and something you might be struggling with. You know just because it you exposed her, that likely stopped the inevitable. And your AP left you which never gave you the chance and you can’t say confidently it would never get there.

It’s kind of like when you aren’t a parent yet you have this grand list of things you would never let your kid do . “ my child will never have screen time when we are out to eat” next thing you know you want a peaceful dinner and your kid is chowing down happily on their chicken fingers and fries while watching their favorite show on your tablet abs you and your spouse are having a nice meal and conversation.

You will never know if that’s truly a dealbreaker for you until you are faced with it. It’s OK to change your views or admit “ right now I feel as if a PA would be a dealbreaker, but in all honestly, I don’t know”

[SteveLW]

Ginger, that's all fair. Thanks for the perspective.

[SteveLW]

While you certainly don't know what you'd do until you have to face it, there's also the element of timing. How you respond to situations changes over time and as you grow. If you're faced with a PA out of the blue, it's tough to gather your bearings and stick to your deal breakers. It also takes time to detach. I think the only reason that I was able to do it was because my sitch was hopeless from the start and remained that way until the end. And, of course, I chose to rely on the advice that both you and LH provided. But different perspectives and opinions are important for the LBS to read. I know I agree with you on some things and LH on others.

-Spiral

Thanks Spiral. Glad to hear that the forum helped you like it did me.

[LH19]

Steve don't flatter yourself. You are not stalkable to me. We would never hang in the same circles as were are completely different people.

So "My boundary is a PA. Everyone is different maybe it isn't a boundary for you" Vs "I don't how you LBS spouses don't have a PA as a boundary. One is a strong conviction and one is a judgment. When you never knowingly walked in the shoes of KNOWING you W had an affair and being a LBS. Again I think it's 50/50 at best your W hasn't had a PA. Normal marriages are 80/20 and throw in you were a self proclaimed prick and your W is a SAHM who has crossed many lines at best she's at 50/50. Like I tell CW when he brags about being a WS. Know your audience.

"Reconciling is harder then divorce". Another claim you made without ever walking in the shoes of a divorced LBS. I'll find it if I have to. R2C knows I have a uncanning ability to remember situations and what was said. I have no doubt reconciling with someone who has betrayed you is difficult. Everyday not knowing if the next shoe is going to drop. But again you never had the feeling of a lonely house the first weekend your kids are away from you.

"When I signoff on LBS dating it is not to get into a relationship right away" You have no idea what dating after divorce is like. You have no idea (allegedly) what dating while having sex is like. You have no idea how women and men typically don't want you sleeping with multiple people while sleeping with them.

"Alcohol is evil and and you should check yourself into AA" Steve I get that you were an alcoholic and I think it is great that you have been sober for X amount of years. People love alcohol! Some days I sit on the beach listening to good tunes and drink 20 beers and fuching love it. Some people can handle it and some people can't. It's up to them to decide.

Steve 90% of your advice is good stuff and your prospective being someone who saved their marriage is a good one have on this board. Staying in your lane and preaching to other people is your challenge. Especially because there is so much hypocrisy involved.

Lastly yes we hijacked Bent's thread who is now a season vet around here. It would have been different IMO if it was a newbie.

You may not even get this because I think you indicated you took your ball and went home. If not feel free to respond. It's all good Steve.

[wayfarer]

Throwing in my 2 cents:

Steve, you and I have a 3 page argument on my very first thread (starting around pg 7) about how pathetic and scared I was for not leaving my H outright when his EA shifted to a PA. (which I knew was going to happen and it did just as I thought it would, just like his whole A) When I told you I was neither scared nor a door mat and that your line in the sand is not the same as my line in the sand you gave me a lot of push back. I was already in a pretty vulnerable place and what you said really hurt me, but I don't get sad or beat myself up when I'm hurting. I get angry. And thankfully I have had enough therapy in my life at that point that I could put the anger into good use and I really sat with what you were saying. At the same time I was getting hit IRL with an IC who was pushing me to leave or kick him out and a person in my life who was dropping not so subtle hints who eventually ramped up to telling me outright I had no self esteem and completely lacked any kind of self respect for standing for my MR. Honestly the whole thing for me was helpful. It helped me to really find my way to why I was really standing, and learn what I could live with, with other people judging my decisions.

That's the thing about A's when the world knows. If you reconcile your spouse stops looking like the loser and then you do. Unless they are a highly empathetic and knowledgeable person who understands how nuanced and how much work both of you need to put into the MR to get to that point, the person who stays looks like and idiot. That is the one and only thing about recon that is harder than D.

LH, as far as Steve saying recon is harder. I really don't think that ever happened, but he is very, very often the reality check for people explaining that recon comes with it's own set of problems. Which it does. I've done both. I'm in the process of both. I don't know how I should phrase it. We're still piecing this MR back together. But in any case they both effing sukkk. They both hurt. They both involve an enormous mental and emotional load. The only thing that I can really say recon has the advantage over the D is the money. My god D is expensive. IC, and MC and all that comes with recon isn't cheap either, but that's an investment into yourselves and your future, but D, it's like just handing paycheck after paycheck directly to your L, your ex, sometimes your ex's L and your only payout is that once it's done it's done.

As far as this spat, personally both of you have had your serious jerk moments with me. Both of you have been incredibly kind to me. Both of you have challenged my thinking. And I think I've given both of you food for thought. Because of that I think both of your voices are super important here. Especially for LBHs and I think the juxtaposition of your two opinions is usually something really good for a person who is trying to find their footing in this mess. I do think the delivery could be better from both of you sometimes. And I do think that both of you let your personal feelings and convictions color what you say to people in a way that can be counter productive sometimes. Unique voices are important here but if you see something creating a visceral reaction in you, you need to realize you're a little too close to give healthy help and check out. Much like when I see an LBH who is a no fault LBH. I stay away. Because I'll say some mean things that don't help anybody.

I personally think Steve has come a long way since I've been here. He's softened a lot. He's gotten much better at gauging how what he says may affect a person's feelings before just saying, but yes still a little holy roller for my taste. But that's Steve.

I also think LH has come a long way with how he views WAS/WS. It's been a journey, and as black and white as you see things LH you've evolved, become more empathetic, and a little better at the 30,000 ft view. I think that's a feat.

I'm also on the don't just stop interacting because you get under each other's skin. We've had some really good convos because of this. Not just you two, but LH and I, and others.

Every body here has a thing. We just do. But I think there'd probably be a little less infighting if there was a little more introspection before hitting that post button.

[LH19]

Good post Wayfarer. I think we both come from the same tribe I am just a lot older. I probably should let more things slide like water of a ducks back lol. I don't doubt recon is harder then D. You have been through both so it has weight to me. One of my BFs reconned 17 years ago and still struggles with it today. I still despise WS but I get it lol. Steve will miss me and unblock me soon. I think.

[MrBrside]

My personal take on this...

While all this was happening to me, i would have taken the WW back, regardless of EA or PA..

The whole "give me the magic bullet... I want to save my famly" was at the forefront of my mind.

3 years on.. I'd tolerate neither. I'm a different person and i don't have the fear of losing something now. I cringe when i think of what i would have tolerated / settled for.

I also believe, if they are capable of EA, they are capable of PA. Factors like timings , opertunity etc may come into it - but i think its just a matter of time and opertunity before most people take that next step.

"affairs start in the head, not in the bed"....

After my WW first EA, i believed all her BS about not doing it again - leopards dont change their spots and it was just a matter of time and opertunity.

If somebody is prepared to have an EA, their head isnt in the relationship and they are prepared to break the trust between them and the LBS.. So why would any LBS want to live like this..

I'd prefer to live my life with a new partner who have never betrayed my trust, as oposed to somebody who has a history of breaking it..

just my 2 cents worth.

[SteveLW]

MrB, certainly a valid view. As someone that has been through two EAs by my W I can completely understand. However, I, too, have been guilty as previously admitted. And I take a lot of responsibility, definitely more than 50% blame, for her EAs. I was a terrible husband, and due to that she was susceptible to the attention of someone that showed concern for her.

For me, I was a guy with a certain level of NGS that felt entitled to love and affection from a member of the opposite sex.

This is where IC and MC worked wonders for me/us. Helping us see the causes and effects. I used to have more of a once a cheater always a cheater viewpoint. And for some I think that is true. But I do think As of all flavors are sometimes the result of other problems in the relationship, and that those involved in those can change.

FTR, I truly believe we all get to decide what are deal breakers for us as individuals. You draw yours even further than I do, but it is also valid for others to be less strigent. I've never intended to tell a LBS that's been physically cheated on they shouldn't want to try to save their marriage. That's up to them. I have taken that stance when a WAS was a serial cheater. But certainly V19 and Ginger opened my eyes and I'll be much more judicious about keeping my own belief related to PAs from biasing my advice to LBSs.

[Traveler]

Like I tell CW when he brags about being a WS

No matter how often you troll by bringing it up--or hope for my karmic doom--I'm unashamed I left an XW who abused my son. For me, some things trump vows. You do you.

[LH19]

Like I tell CW when he brags about being a WS

No matter how often you troll by bringing it up--or hope for my karmic doom--I'm unashamed I left an XW who abused my son. For me, some things trump vows. You do you.

I don't hope upon your karmic doom I simply point out that when you say "I can't find someone who sticks with me through thick and thin". That's the definition of karma!

[SteveLW]

Just now realized that Traveler is CW! I wondered where you went!

[JosephS]

My quick takes

No one knows what they’re willing to put up with until they’re in the situation. Unfortunately both divorce and recon are very difficult and wear you out mentally and emotionally.

Steve, you’ve always been kind and supportive. I’ve always appreciated that even if you disagreed with me you always supported me the best way you knew how. If you do that for a stranger I’m sure you do far more for your family.

LH, honestly you do respond differently to Steve and CW/Traveler. And just in this thread and multiple other ones, you come across like child abuse isn’t a reason to leave. And Sandy was a wayward and you didn’t go after her this way so that really can’t be the only issue you have with CW. So what’s the deal? Just need to make sure everyone that’s here and will be here in the future knows that CW left his wife so his opinions can’t be valid?

[SteveLW]

My quick takes

No one knows what they’re willing to put up with until they’re in the situation. Unfortunately both divorce and recon are very difficult and wear you out mentally and emotionally.

Steve, you’ve always been kind and supportive. I’ve always appreciated that even if you disagreed with me you always supported me the best way you knew how. If you do that for a stranger I’m sure you do far more for your family.

Joseph, Well spoken. I know saying "I would do this in that case" is easier said than done.

I appreciate the kind words. I certainly live by the motto "disagree without being disagreeable". But this is the internet. You get a lot of keyboard tough guys that would never speak to you directly the way they type to you. Been on the internet since the mid-90s. Some things have not changed.

I am here to sincerely try to help LBSs. Michele Wiener-Davis and her writings, videos and this forum changed my life! So I try to pay it forward.

[LH19]

My quick takes

No one knows what they’re willing to put up with until they’re in the situation. Unfortunately both divorce and recon are very difficult and wear you out mentally and emotionally.

Steve, you’ve always been kind and supportive. I’ve always appreciated that even if you disagreed with me you always supported me the best way you knew how. If you do that for a stranger I’m sure you do far more for your family.

LH, honestly you do respond differently to Steve and CW/Traveler. And just in this thread and multiple other ones, you come across like child abuse isn’t a reason to leave. And Sandy was a wayward and you didn’t go after her this way so that really can’t be the only issue you have with CW. So what’s the deal? Just need to make sure everyone that’s here and will be here in the future knows that CW left his wife so his opinions can’t be valid?

Well like I said before Joseph CWs just recently told us about this child abuse accusation and he has indicated he’s close with his ex so I can only assume they worked through it. And again everyone is entitled to get divorced and as I stated I just think it’s karmatic when he says he wants someone who will stick by his side through thick and thin. I like CWs and I find his life fascinating and entertaining. As for Steve he sometimes rubs me the wrong way that’s all. So does Don H. I rub May and Andy P the wrong way. Doesn’t mean there isn’t love and respect for all we’ve been through together. I know Ginger loves me and that’s all the matters.

As for Sandy she never divorced her husband. She did the hard work to remain in here marriage. I hope she’s ok but we haven’t heard from her in about a year.

[OnlyBent]

Lastly yes we hijacked Bent's thread who is now a season vet around here. It would have been different IMO if it was a newbie.

For the record, I have no issue with discussion hijacking my thread and I have great respect for both LH and Steve, I enjoy their banter. These two have probably given me more advice than anyone else, its appreciated and I'd hate to see them be anything but themselves, both have their strengths and weaknesses, like everyone.

Also, C-Dub, its not a big deal, but it does grate on me a bit when I see you put you left your XW for "good cause" in your opening lines, given your audience. But again, your pros well outweigh your cons.

[SteveLW]

Thanks OB. It is such a pleasure to see the growth a LBS like you goes through. You put in the work OB and now you're flourishing. Its awesome to see, and why I try to encourage those that come here!

[Ready2Change]

As for Steve he sometimes rubs me the wrong way that’s all. So does Don H. I rub May and Andy P the wrong way.

Too much rubbing going on...R2C averts his eyes...

[Ready2Change]

and I have great respect for both LH and Steve...These two have probably given me more advice than anyone else, its appreciated and I'd hate to see them be anything but themselves, both have their strengths and weaknesses, like everyone...

I do hold back on responding when one of you gives advise agree with. Glad you both post what you do.

[may22]

FWIW...

Both Steve and LH were pretty harsh at times with me about my decision to stay with my H. I had always thought an A of any sort would be a deal breaker for me, but when it came down to it and I really thought through my priorities, values, and identity and what really mattered to me, I decided that working to keep my family together and spend every night with my kids was more important. I still believe that and am grateful for that every day, even though reconciliation isn't easy. Feeling the judgment of this group was hard for me in the moment, when I was so raw and hurting. Steve, I remember when you tore into WF and was so impressed with how she stood up for herself.

Sometimes I think neither of you really think about the actual human being on the other end of your advice, really trying to understand their own motivations, boundaries, core values that might be different from their own. I see a lot of you telling others what you would do in their situation, but it isn't always couched that way-- more like you should do X or you're a sad pathetic doormat who should really have more respect for yourself.

To me, the important thing is helping the LBS figure out what is important to THEM and what is best for them in their own situation, which may not be what we would do ourselves in the same situation. Steve, I think this is what people are saying to you-- there really is no need for you to say that a PA is deal breaker for you when you're posting about someone else's situation. The question is, is a PA a deal breaker for them? And also to be completely honest, I really don't buy it that if your wife came up to you tomorrow and said Steve, I'm so sorry, I have been wanting to say this to you for years but I was afraid I'd lose you if I did, but I just need to be completely honest-- something did happen with that person from years ago. Would you really pack your bags and walk away? I don't buy it. And while I'm still pretty p!ssed at my H for all the trickle-truth lying over months and months (swearing up and down that it was an EA when it was not), he's said to me that while there is no excuse for what he did, he was terrified of telling me the truth and what it would mean. Especially given your stance on PAs, your wife will probably never tell you unless she decides she unequivocally wants out. I'm not saying this to sow doubt, but maybe to ask you to extend a little grace towards her if she did, or towards yourself for the choices you made in the past, and for all the rest of us who are trying to come to terms with our own choices as LBSs and make sense of what happened to our marriages.

LH, I agree with WF. I think you've come a long way, honestly, in terms of empathy, and recognizing when your own trauma around your situation might color your response to a poster. It's impressive.

[SteveLW]

May, honestly I don't know if I could get past it. Maybe you're right. But it would mean the last 4 years were a lie.

I do disagree with you vehemently about not thinking about the human-being though. Sorry that it doesn't always come across that way, but if a LBS ever told me flat out that a PA wasn't a deal breaker for them I would respect that straight away. Just like the one guy the told me my advice wasn't helpful to him. I respected his wishes and stopped giving him advice.

I sincerely am not here to try to push MY values on anyone. That they sometimes come across, out, or I flat out say them doesn't mean that anyone has to follow them or employ/adopt them themselves. I get it. Some posters don't like when I say a deal breaker for me is a PA. Duly noted. But I can't promise that I'll never say it again either.

But that doesn't mean in any way I think myself better than anyone else for it. I have friends and family members that have forgiven their spouse for cheating years ago and are still together today. And its actually improved their marriages. Good on them. I've also known people that divorced their spouses because the their spouse cheated. I complete support their decision as well. Neither is better than the other for it. I don't think the latter are better, or stronger, or more worthy of praise for their choice. That seems to be the implication by many here. Its not true, I respect another's right to decide for themselves.

I do apologize for being harsh in your thread. I'm sincerely sorry. I will strive to do better in that regard for the go forward.

[SteveLW]

Throwing in my 2 cents:

Steve, you and I have a 3 page argument on my very first thread (starting around pg 7) about how pathetic and scared I was for not leaving my H outright when his EA shifted to a PA. (which I knew was going to happen and it did just as I thought it would, just like his whole A) When I told you I was neither scared nor a door mat and that your line in the sand is not the same as my line in the sand you gave me a lot of push back. I was already in a pretty vulnerable place and what you said really hurt me, but I don't get sad or beat myself up when I'm hurting. I get angry. And thankfully I have had enough therapy in my life at that point that I could put the anger into good use and I really sat with what you were saying. At the same time I was getting hit IRL with an IC who was pushing me to leave or kick him out and a person in my life who was dropping not so subtle hints who eventually ramped up to telling me outright I had no self esteem and completely lacked any kind of self respect for standing for my MR. Honestly the whole thing for me was helpful. It helped me to really find my way to why I was really standing, and learn what I could live with, with other people judging my decisions.

That's the thing about A's when the world knows. If you reconcile your spouse stops looking like the loser and then you do. Unless they are a highly empathetic and knowledgeable person who understands how nuanced and how much work both of you need to put into the MR to get to that point, the person who stays looks like and idiot. That is the one and only thing about recon that is harder than D.

LH, as far as Steve saying recon is harder. I really don't think that ever happened, but he is very, very often the reality check for people explaining that recon comes with it's own set of problems. Which it does. I've done both. I'm in the process of both. I don't know how I should phrase it. We're still piecing this MR back together. But in any case they both effing sukkk. They both hurt. They both involve an enormous mental and emotional load. The only thing that I can really say recon has the advantage over the D is the money. My god D is expensive. IC, and MC and all that comes with recon isn't cheap either, but that's an investment into yourselves and your future, but D, it's like just handing paycheck after paycheck directly to your L, your ex, sometimes your ex's L and your only payout is that once it's done it's done.

As far as this spat, personally both of you have had your serious jerk moments with me. Both of you have been incredibly kind to me. Both of you have challenged my thinking. And I think I've given both of you food for thought. Because of that I think both of your voices are super important here. Especially for LBHs and I think the juxtaposition of your two opinions is usually something really good for a person who is trying to find their footing in this mess. I do think the delivery could be better from both of you sometimes. And I do think that both of you let your personal feelings and convictions color what you say to people in a way that can be counter productive sometimes. Unique voices are important here but if you see something creating a visceral reaction in you, you need to realize you're a little too close to give healthy help and check out. Much like when I see an LBH who is a no fault LBH. I stay away. Because I'll say some mean things that don't help anybody.

I personally think Steve has come a long way since I've been here. He's softened a lot. He's gotten much better at gauging how what he says may affect a person's feelings before just saying, but yes still a little holy roller for my taste. But that's Steve.

I also think LH has come a long way with how he views WAS/WS. It's been a journey, and as black and white as you see things LH you've evolved, become more empathetic, and a little better at the 30,000 ft view. I think that's a feat.

I'm also on the don't just stop interacting because you get under each other's skin. We've had some really good convos because of this. Not just you two, but LH and I, and others.

Every body here has a thing. We just do. But I think there'd probably be a little less infighting if there was a little more introspection before hitting that post button.

I apologize WF. I didn't see your post, missed it completely somehow. When may agreed with you on something I went back and saw it.

I apologize for pushing back in your thread. I messed up. I should have respected your right to decide for yourself. I'll have to go back and read that and learn from it, but I offer you a sincere apology as well.

I will never ever apologize for being a holy roller. Its why I'm still alive today. I was a full blown alcoholic in my younger days. Waking up in bed having no idea how I got there many many mornings. Recommitting my life to Jesus Christ not only saved my soul, but I would be physically dead by now, no doubt in my mind, without Him. And maybe even worse, could have hurt or killed someone else in the process. It is core to who I am and I'll never ever shrink from that.

As far as infighting, despite LH's stalking, and passive-aggressiveness, or at times flat out personal attacks, I've done my best to ignore it, move past it, and be the bigger person. As I've said above, I've encountered a lot of LHs in the nearly 30 years of the Internet. I'm not here to argue and fight. He's says a lot of things I've flat out disagreed with, but unlike him I just go about doing my thing, trying to help LBSs see the light at the end of the tunnel. And that's what I will continue to do. Someone (I've lost track!) said that the different perspectives are good because there is a better chance someone will hit on something that helps the LBS move forward. That's the goal. And that's why, despite LH being severely crappy to me at times, I was one of the first to tell him to stick around when he announced he was leaving the board. I do not regret that. When he's not focused on me he actually gives some pretty solid advice to LBSs. I won't be reading it anymore just in case he decides its been too long since he gave me or CW crap. But I hope he continues to help LBSs just the same.

[SteveLW]

So WF I went back and read your first thread. I don't think I ignored that you draw your line in the sand in a different place, I think that I was just too thick headed to see that! Once you posted this post:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2882587#Post2882587

I got the point you were making and backed off. I do apologize that I didn't catch on sooner even though in hindsight I see you had already pretty much said it. My W would probably tell you that one of my biggest failings is that she has to tell me things more than once. I've tried to work on that and will continue to.

[SteveLW]

May for kicks I went back and read your first thread. I thought you and I connected pretty well. I related a lot to your situation due to your marital dynamics pre-BD. I am really trying to grow here so if you could point to where I was harsh I'd appreciate it. I really do appreciate your perspective! Thanks for weighing in.

[SteveLW]

and I have great respect for both LH and Steve...These two have probably given me more advice than anyone else, its appreciated and I'd hate to see them be anything but themselves, both have their strengths and weaknesses, like everyone...

I do hold back on responding when one of you gives advise agree with. Glad you both post what you do.

R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!

[LH19]

Steve I have come across many of you holier then throw types in my day and they are typically hypocrites. Believe it or not I have refrained from commenting quite of few times in regards to some of your posts. Again this entire thing started when you made the comment “ I don’t know how a PA isn’t a deal breaker for you LBS”. If you can’t see how that’s offensive then I’m not sure what to tell you.

May we’ve had some ups and downs for sure. The issue I had in your sitch is that you were forcing the recon and the remorse was there from your h. I think we have the same beliefs regarding keeping the family together. That’s what it was always about for me it was really about her which she probably sensed which is part of the reason I ended here.

There’s up and downs on this board all the time. We have laughs all the time and I’ve sat in my office with tears rolling down my face. I know I need to be better in certain areas and I will work on that moving forward.

[KitCat]

I don't ever believe in kicking a person when they are down.

Steve it seems to me that you are remorseful in what has been seen as personal attacks.

I don't feel that you are all that bad, however I was feeling particularly bullied at the time I left this group.

The main reason was how much it was harped on why an LBS would take back a spouse after a PA.

Well, frankly none of us are perfect. And, in our lord Jesus Christ (as you like to point out you're a believer) we should be more forgiving of others. Again... giving out this mixed bag of your belief seems like your cotton picking on what suits you at the moment.

The bottom line is the OW was NEVER my competition. My only competition was myself. The affair was a symptom that something was wrong in my marriage that desperately needed addressed. I certainly did my part in cleaning up my side of the street... all I could do was wait to see if that would be enough for my partner to make the choice in working on our M.

Many who come here are suffering the betrayal of marriage with an EA or a PA. Looking for help and support and understanding. I would most definitely be amiss if I did not say that Steve you do give a lot of good advice and support and over time you have developed more of an understanding but unless a poster has specifically asked what you would if you were in there shoes... this whole statement of it being crazy nonsense for a LBS to take back a cheater should never ever be posted on anyone's thread but your own.

And, truth be told you don't ever know what you would truly do until your in that situation. So it again it comes across as you standing on a pulpit preaching Jesus... But, others have posted such scenarios to you and you have admitted you don't know what you would do.

I married my H (knowing his history in his first M) that I would work anything out but if he ever cheated he would gone. He knew that and believed that and even said at DDAY... he was just going to go sleep with someone so I would never want him back because it was my only deal breaker.

I had a lot of stuff to work through... even though it was my boundary before our M for me when I actually got there I could see how I had cluttered my side of the street and contributed to our issues. I had a lot of work to do but I could see forgiveness, understanding and love.

As for the beef with LH... he's just the opposite side of your pickle. You both have honest supportive intent he just comes from the opposite spectrum as you. You are like Yin and Yang with each other... LOL!!!

As for myself and everyone else on this board. Written/spoken words are only 7% of communicative language, 38% is tone of voice and 55% is body language. GUESS WHAT???? On an anonymous internet board we are only giving and getting that 7%. Black and white type on a page is lacking tone and body language and often times can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

Its Valentines Day Weekend... let's all show one another love.

[LH19]

KK! How have you been? Sitting meeting up with ex for car sex? Lol

[KitCat]

KK! How have you been? Sitting meeting up with ex for car sex? Lol

I'm good. I will post an update next week.

[SteveLW]

KC, I should have bowed out of your situation much sooner than I did. It was obvious that your values are the polar opposite of mine and that you were not even really ever open to opposing viewpoints. I should have recognized that way earlier than I did. I am sorry to say that I feel you were one of the worst DBers I've seen here. I don't mean that as an insult or an attack, but an observation. You completely refused to even entertain the concept of detachment. Instead of conceding to that I tried a tough love approach with you.

But I do sincerely apologize. I should have stopped giving you advice when you obviously didn't want it. My intentions were pure. My methods were poor. I'm sorry you felt bullied, that was not my intention. I eventually learned to just stay out of your thread and let others try, but I did so way too late. Your situation was probably the one I most broke my own principles in trying to help others here, and as I've stated, I fully intend to do better from here on out. 2x4s worked wonders for me when I came to the forum, but my biggest learning in my attempt to help you was that they don't work for everyone.

I hope you've found some peace in your life. I sincerely mean that.

[LH19]

KK,

You were the most frustrating DBer maybe ever. Half the time your stuff was so outrageous I didn’t think you were real. I will say for the most part you took 2x4s like a champ. You went a little off the rails in the end but to be honest with you I can’t wait for your update lol.

[KitCat]

I am sorry to say that I feel you were one of the worst DBers I've seen here. I don't mean that as an insult or an attack, but an observation. You completely refused to even entertain the concept of detachment. Instead of conceding to that I tried a tough love approach with you.

That's a pretty aggressive statement to say.

EVERYONE's journey is different and THEIR own. Nothing I did makes me the worst at anything or the best.

This board was more of an emotional journey for myself. I poured every bit of stress, frustration, saddness and joy as it happened. Putting it here was WAY better than throwing it at my WS. Because I was able to have a place to put my emotions whenever I did interact with my H I was able to do so in a manner that did not hurt or was destructive to my situation with him.

I heard everyone who participated in my journey but sometimes I had to get those thoughts and feelings out somewhere... the good and bad days. And, yes, I had a lot of bad days but most people do in the beginning.

The most important thing you could have done for me during those times was not using statements or implying that cheaters are liars and you should never take back a spouse who has done either and its just crazy how I would ever want to do that.

^^^^ Those types of statements were the most damaging.

And, over time you became very judgemental.

My value and belief system is not that much different from yours. I see in your recent posts a new and improved Steve!!!! I see you being more supportive and positive for someone and less throwing your own personal beliefs and opinions into someone else's journey.

[SteveLW]

KC, I appreciate your perspective. But you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I've apologized. I stay out of your thread. I don't know that else you want me to say?

I call them like I see them, but I'm not perfect, no one is. Your H was living with another woman, was listed as her SO in her relative's obituary, and you still got offended when I called him what he was. I do not apologize for that.

Let's agree to disagree and go our separate ways. I wish you the best, and will continue to pray for you as I do everyone on this site.

[Traveler]

Hey KitCat, same me (CW) new username. So glad you’re doing well! Hope the vet business and pet are, too. I totally got you leaving. I hope you found what support you needed.

I cringe at, “Still meeting up with ex for car sex” and “You were one of the worst DBrs I’ve seen here”. They’re comments that could be pulled off with the right tone and body language, but without that extra information, could be interpreted as judgmental. Sending that Valentine’s love in all directions—may words be kind, and interpretations gracious.

[SteveLW]

Hey KitCat, same me (CW) new username. So glad you’re doing well! Hope the vet business and pet are, too. I totally got you leaving. I hope you found what support you needed.

I cringe at, “Still meeting up with ex for car sex” and “You were one of the worst DBrs I’ve seen here”. They’re comments that could be pulled off with the right tone and body language, but without that extra information, could be interpreted as judgmental. Sending that Valentine’s love in all directions—may words be kind, and interpretations gracious.

It wasn't the first time I told her that, but your point is well taken and it will be the very last time.

Traveler, I can always count on you to keep me in line!

[Traveler]

[Traveler, I can always count on you to keep me in line!

I’ve greatly valued your support and advice as well.

[LH19]

Uuummm I just want to know If she’s having car sex. No judging here

[may22]

May we’ve had some ups and downs for sure. The issue I had in your sitch is that you were forcing the recon and the remorse was there from your h. I think we have the same beliefs regarding keeping the family together. That’s what it was always about for me it was really about her which she probably sensed which is part of the reason I ended here.

Hi LH, I disagree that I forced the recon-- I asked my H to leave multiple times and he refused (though he came very close). He was 100% free to go-- I was just clear that we weren't going to be BFFs afterwards. Maybe that was manipulative, or perceived as such, but I was just being honest. (That was my line in the sand-- not the PA, but the walking out the door.) I know I could have forced a separation by moving out myself, but I chose not to do that. Or maybe he would have decided to move out on his own if I had promised him we'd be besties once we Ded. Who knows. However, I definitely don't think I forced a recon. I don't think that is possible, anyway-- I only control me, I don't control my H, and it takes two to recon. It is true that he wasn't fully remorseful at the beginning, but that has come with time. Patience was the new skill I had to learn. But it was hard feeling judged and told I did not value myself or whatever.

May for kicks I went back and read your first thread. I thought you and I connected pretty well. I related a lot to your situation due to your marital dynamics pre-BD. I am really trying to grow here so if you could point to where I was harsh I'd appreciate it. I really do appreciate your perspective! Thanks for weighing in.

Steve, I did really feel connected to you and you have given me great advice throughout. I can't pinpoint an exact example and I really feel no desire right now to go through my own threads and find something, but perhaps it is because I felt connected to you and respected your advice that it did sting quite a bit when you said to me and/or to others the bits about not taking back a cheater. It wasn't really anything special or different from what you've said to others-- the line between the EA and the PA being very distinct for you and you not really understanding how it would be possible to forgive or live with a spouse who had had a PA. I guess in the end I agree with KC-- there really isn't a need for you to share your boundaries regarding an EA/PA unless you're asked, especially given what almost all of us have been through here. Instead, I might recommend focusing on the poster's own values and boundaries and help them to define where that line might be for themselves, once they can get past the fear and hurt and anger.

[SteveLW]

May for kicks I went back and read your first thread. I thought you and I connected pretty well. I related a lot to your situation due to your marital dynamics pre-BD. I am really trying to grow here so if you could point to where I was harsh I'd appreciate it. I really do appreciate your perspective! Thanks for weighing in.

Steve, I did really feel connected to you and you have given me great advice throughout. I can't pinpoint an exact example and I really feel no desire right now to go through my own threads and find something, but perhaps it is because I felt connected to you and respected your advice that it did sting quite a bit when you said to me and/or to others the bits about not taking back a cheater. It wasn't really anything special or different from what you've said to others-- the line between the EA and the PA being very distinct for you and you not really understanding how it would be possible to forgive or live with a spouse who had had a PA. I guess in the end I agree with KC-- there really isn't a need for you to share your boundaries regarding an EA/PA unless you're asked, especially given what almost all of us have been through here. Instead, I might recommend focusing on the poster's own values and boundaries and help them to define where that line might be for themselves, once they can get past the fear and hurt and anger.

Ah, ok, thanks May. I appreciate the feedback. As I've stated in previous messages recently, it isn't that I disagree with ever taking a cheater back. I am not sure how my feelings on PAs got twisted into that. I think it is systemic of our current society to take everything to the extremes. For example, I said KC was one of the worst DBers, but she and Traveler read (and even rewrote it is) as me saying she was THE worst DBer. Not really what I said, but ok, apparently there is no vast middle ground on these things anymore.

I do try to get LBSs to understand, especially those that are religious, that even in cases where their faith is saying "don't D", that the exception is always "unless your spouse has cheated". But I take the feedback that I had become too liberal with my sharing of that. And I can see that. I can also see where my frustration with KC wanting to R with a husband that was living with the OW boiled over into my initial responses to Wayfarer. That WF was patient enough with me to get past that initial reaction is a testament to WF!

So again, I sincerely apologize to you for giving the impression that it is a hard and fast no, never ever try to R with a cheater. That certainly isn't my stance, I do think it is up to the individual, and to the circumstances (thanks Ginger for showing me that!), and no one is to be looked down upon (not that I ever did) if they decide that a repentant cheater is someone they have decided to R with! As I said, I have several in among my family and friends that have done just that and I think no less of them, and in a couple of the cases, am impressed by how much better their relationships are now!

May, WF, you guys were rocks in your situation. I do think you held fast to what you expected out of your Hs in order to return and give R a shot. And I applaud that. Unfortunately, so many LBSs are willing to R at any cost, even with unrepentant cheaters, and I never advocate for that. You two in particular did it right!

[LH19]

So again, I sincerely apologize to you for giving the impression that it is a hard and fast no, never ever try to R with a cheater. That certainly isn't my stance, I do think it is up to the individual, and to the circumstances (thanks Ginger for showing me that!), and no one is to be looked down upon (not that I ever did) if they decide that a repentant cheater is someone they have decided to R with!

So below is what you wrote on Bent's thread. You didn't give an impression you made a pretty clear statement. You are back tracking now because of the blow back you got. Personally I would respect you more if you held your ground on the subject.

Personally, I don't know how people put up with physical cheating. In my sitch my W had EAs. If any had moved to PAs I could have gladly moved forward with a D and not looked back. I know others feel EAs are worse in some ways, but to me PAs are a dealbreaker.

[LH19]

Hi LH, I disagree that I forced the recon

May to be clear I meant in the beginning when he wanted to get his own place and you refused. To me that had control written all over it. Also I didn't see the remorse in the beginning which turns out is probably just a LBS fantasy. I am a proponent of time and space. I think you and I are more similar then you may think. I think we were both in this to keep our family togethers and didn't want to lose. To keep my family together I would have forgiven a PA if the remorse was there but I wouldn't never tolerate a PA from anyone else if that makes sense. Baby momma rights get certain exceptions in my book. Anyways it work out for you in the long run that you trusted your own instinct.

[Ready2Change]

R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!

Mostly lurking... I was reading Sandi's threads, but I am very busy at work and home these days....we will never know how many people we help by posting.


Hopefully we are all learning something from the current topic. Just because I have never used a tampon, doesn't mean I can't explain to a woman how to use one, but I am sure an experienced woman would be able to explain it better.

As far as using a pad, my only recommendation is sticky side down.

[SteveLW]

R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!

Mostly lurking... I was reading Sandi's threads, but I am very busy at work and home these days....we will never know how many people we help by posting.


Hopefully we are all learning something from the current topic. Just because I have never used a tampon, doesn't mean I can't explain to a woman how to use one, but I am sure an experienced woman would be able to explain it better.

As far as using a pad, my only recommendation is sticky side down.

Okay that is a topic that even I wouldn't weigh in on!

But R2C, you've always had a way of really being succinct and direct, and in a softer way than I ever could. I really admire people that can say things that need to said in a way that the recipient doesn't get hurt or take offense to it. I tend to be too direct. As I said above, for some that works. For others maybe not so much. I think Traveler said that not seeing the body language, facial expressions, things like that also have an impact.

I've noticed that before the pandemic LBSs seemed more open to the tough love, direct, 2x4 approach. Since the pandemic started LBSs seem a tad more sensitive. Not sure if it is corollary or not but some of the veterans that used to post here brought the 2x4s. They didn't even have to warn you, they just did it. Now it feels that if you are going to get tough with a LBS (for their own good) it has to be full of disclaimers and warnings.

Anyway, just some observations while we are the topic. As far as some being disagreeable, again that is part and parcel of the internet. I really do not care if someone that I do not even know posts something I disagree with here or any other forum. It is the internet and there are a lot of different perspectives. I'll just continue to providing my perspective regardless of who likes or doesn't, always being open to the threads LBS whether or not they want that perspective or not.

[MLCxH]

Some thoughts here:
1. People are biased by their personal beliefs. This is natural, but it would help if they tried to give the advice based on the other person's beliefs rather than their own. If someone thinks an EA is a deal breaker but the person that the advice is intended for does not, the advice is better received if it is comes from a perspective of the EA not being a deal breaker regardless of personal belief.

2. People get defensive when receiving advice, especially when it is not something they want to hear. When the advice is correct, it will help if the poster stays on the thread rather than leave because the advice is not being well received. This is important because many others read the thread and not just the OP. We don't want others to feel that the advice was incorrect just because it was rejected by a few.

3. Newcomers on this thread are hurt and emotionally fragile. They come here desperate and grasping at straws. While we all know that 'this is a marathon and not a sprint', it is hard for people in that state to accept that. It is hard for them to accept that in most cases the R is dead and reconciliation really means a new R, which is difficult given the history. We hence need to keep our own frustrations in check when the advice is rejected. Most success stories here start out with the LBS being a mess and doing all the wrong things. It is only later that they come to terms with reality and do the right thing.

4. Try to understand what is important to the LBS. When I was a newcomer, I mainly wanted specific advice on things I could do to get my WAW to stay in the house to increase the chances of R. I was handling myself well emotionally, so some of the advice such as moving on because "she fired me as H", was not helpful. Now, I eventually had to accept there was no path to R, but that was only after I explored the available paths and found them to either be a dead end or found them to be paths I did not want to walk down.

Steve,
For what it is worth, when you first commented on my thread, I did not like your tone even though some of the advice made sense. When I reread my thread a few months later, the tone did not bother me at all and felt a lot more normal and straightforward than when I first read it. I also found myself agreeing with a lot more of your advice than I initially did

[SteveLW]

While newcomer LBSs do not like to hear "you've been fired by your spouse", it is an important point to make to them. The reason? Because most LBSs react to "I want a divorce" by trying to become super spouse. It is the exact opposite of what the LBS should be doing. And so telling a LBS to stop acting like their WAS husband or wife is important. MLC I do not remember all of the details of your coming here, but my guess is that I or someone else said "your wife has fired you as her husband" because you were trying to save your marriage by becoming the best husband in the world. That can work at some point prior to BD, but once BD rolls around being super husband just doesn't work.

Interesting take on how you reacted to my advice then vs. now. I can relate a big, though by time I came to this form in my situation, I was ready for the 2x4s. While I agree that LBSs come here desperate, hurt, going through the worst time of their lives, I think succinct, blunt, to the point advice is really what they need, whether they want to hear it or not. I don't remember how old you are but I think this "don't tell me what I need to hear" thing is largely generational. As the helicopter parent kids come of age, they are a lot less willing to hear hard truth. Yes you can say things harshly or kindly, and that doesn't always translate through the written word, but saying what needs to be said still has to occur.

All of this has taught me a point that you made though, and that is I have to be careful sharing my own personal beliefs too much because it may not be helpful to the LBS. That longtime posters don't like to hear it is immaterial to me, to be frank. Having a vet here obsess over my view on PAs means nothing to me, I just simply do not care. When a LBS comes to this forum and are letting a WAS walk all over them because they think they can nice them back, and that LBS states that PAs were always a dealbreaker for them, then I am going to continue to remind LBSs that it isn't a good idea to give up on those dealbreakers. It saddens me to see LBWs that have been physically abused, make excuses for that behavior even though they've always said that a single incident of abuse was a dealbreaker for them. Giving up on dealbreakers to a spouse that is completely unrepentant after having broken one teaches that spouse that is ok to ignore the LBS's dealbreakers. That is not setting up for the future R that the LBS SHOULD want to have.

Thanks for the thoughtful response though MLC. I obviously do not agree with all of it, but it is nice to hear other's perspectives.

[SteveLW]

MLC, same ask for you I had for May. I went back and reread my responses in your thread, and I would like to know which ones you took issue with in tone. I'd like to try to learn and adjust the tone in the future.

Thanks!

[LH19]

1. People are biased by their personal beliefs. This is natural, but it would help if they tried to give the advice based on the other person's beliefs rather than their own. If someone thinks an EA is a deal breaker but the person that the advice is intended for does not, the advice is better received if it is comes from a perspective of the EA not being a deal breaker regardless of personal belief.

He doesn't get it and I don't think he ever will. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't a hypocrite.

Anyways MLC how about an update. How is your ex? Did she find her pot of gold? Have you dipped your foot in the dating pool?

[wayfarer]

MLC 100% with on 1-3. I can't agree with 4 though. Reminding myself that I was "fired as a wife" really helped me accept what was going on. I've seen it help a lot of newbies conceptualize what was happening for the exact reason Steve said, thinking "I want a divorce" means the LBS should become super spouse and then they'll love me again. Is it an off putting phrase? Absolutely! But that ties into your second point. It may hurt to hear it but it needs to be said. And the sooner someone can see their MR for what it is at that moment the better off they are.

[Valeska19]

This board is drastically different from when I joined in 2011. The 1st question asked was about how the LBS felt they contributed to the demise of the marriage. Were they controlling? Immature?Sh!tty Parent or Spouse, etc... and then VETS helped them change that aspect of themselves as they interacted with their WAS and in their daily life. Of course we still recommended boundaries. Of course we still recommend GALing but it was for the sake of their safety/well being vs. a response to their spouse.

Sometimes Blunt is necessary but IMHO - seeing how an LBS deserves better is the best approach to go. No one will set up or stick to boundaries UNLESS they BELIEVE they deserve better treatment. That is hard enough in a normal day to day life let alone when Sh!t has hit the fan and splattered all over your face.

90% of people can't handle the "Let Go, Let God/Universe take over". 90% can handle boundaries/deal breaker conversations. They are too scared of the future. Too scared they won't survive. Our job is to help them get through the day to day so the storm settles and they can make the best decisions for themselves.

We have very little new faces on here. After I divorced - the "Surviving the Big D" was not very active. Now it's more active than the Newcomers. That is neither good or bad... but it does make me curious if maybe we have less traffic because we have changed (as a whole board) our priorities when giving advice.

[SteveLW]

V, I've heard this before. "The board has changed. The advice has changed. The approach has changed."

I can only say how it was in Feb 2018 when I found the board. And if you go read my 1st thread you'll see I got hammered by 2x4s right out of the gate. I saw a lot of other LBSs around that time also get 2x4'd on a daily basis. Very eye-opening, helpful stuff by a dozen or more veterans. I was extremely thankful for that even though at the time it was difficult to hear. I came here convinced that the whole of my situation was due to my wife's anti-depressant medication. I had read a thread here where a LBS had found that there was research even suggesting that ADs contributed to the breakup of marriages. I was looking for confirmation (confirmation bias) of my findings and wanting others here to tell me the best way to get my wife to stop taking her meds.

The 2x4s were swift, and to the point. ADs weren't our problems. I couldn't change her or her behavior or what she was doing, and I needed to pull up my bigboy pants and start acting like someone that respected myself, that deserved better, and that needed to stop whining and pointing to things outside of my control.

Within a month my approach to my situation changed. I wasn't perfect, but I certainly got better and more consistent with DBing principles and the activities that were espoused.

So my question back to you is what is so different than when you joined in 2011. You said people came here and got questioend about their role in the breakup, and then got advice to reverse course on that. I am not seeing it being so much different here. If a LBS comes here and says "I have a problem with being controlling" a lot of the advice they get is how to let go and stop thinking they CAN control everything. Help me out here.

[Ready2Change]

Not too many new LBS's these days. I believe google searches were bringing more people here in the past. I think other sites have moved up in the rankings and this site has moved down.

[SteveLW]

R2C, I know 4 years ago I found the board via google. You may be right. Maybe some still find it an find the plethora of information they are looking for and do not feel the need to register and post? I know we've had a lot of newcomers that have said in their first post that they had been lurking for a while. So maybe more people are trying to stay anonymous and take the readings they can do here and apply it to their situation.

I got lucky and sandi took an interest in my situation early on. I found her perspective and her writings here to be invaluable. Between her and MWD I was able to take control of myself (with slipups) much better than I did in my first sitch in 2005.

[BL42]

Not too many new LBS's these days. I believe google searches were bringing more people here in the past. I think other sites have moved up in the rankings and this site has moved down.

^I'm willing to bet this is the primary driver. It's certainly possible some folks are turned off by particular advice or the overall tone, but my guess is most people don't know where to turn at bomb day and are just looking for anything to help so they start googling for answers and find other sites who have invested more recently in Search Engine Optimization (SEO).

[KitCat]

The honest answer is ------- this site has not grown.

You tube videos out there of Michele are old and out dated. She has no new presence. What she offers is her personal opinion and what has worked for some couples.

There is a very huge site out there with a huge social presence. Weekly podcasts, videos and a strong FB presence. They are very research based principles --- not just their research. They have evolved and structured their program based on principles and what was working and not working. Its understanding how people fall out of love and can fall back into love ---- yes, there is research. Its understanding why a spouse leaves a marriage, just 3 reasons - ask Gottman. Knowledge is power. Sure you can understand the tactics to pull a spouse back in but it don't understand what makes a M go the long haul you will make the same mistakes again.

Why does your spouse hate you???? You have to understand the 3 types of hate. Do you know the Sternberg's Triangulation Theory of Love?

They are a group of thousands world wide.

They focus on being positive - not the negative. They focus on your inner growth.

Trained coaches are available once weekly for hour long Q&A. The three most prominent heads of the organization are front and center regularly. Posting videos and sometimes making personal comments.

I'm not dissing Michele and her information. It is valuable. But, if you look at the decline of this site is because little new information is being fed into it. If Michele herself cannot free her time for a little attention to the board what about her coaches?

Unless new energy and blood is not pumped into this site it will continue to hover on life support.

I almost liken this board now the Battlestar Galactica Theme --- those few remaining are leading a ragtag fugitive fleet on a lonely quest.

Just my opinion.

[SteveLW]

Not too many new LBS's these days. I believe google searches were bringing more people here in the past. I think other sites have moved up in the rankings and this site has moved down.

^I'm willing to bet this is the primary driver. It's certainly possible some folks are turned off by particular advice or the overall tone, but my guess is most people don't know where to turn at bomb day and are just looking for anything to help so they start googling for answers and find other sites who have invested more recently in Search Engine Optimization (SEO).

I've been out of the search engine optimization game for a while now. I got lucky and found the site via doing a search on "anti-depressants divorce". The thread I linked in my initial post was one of the top hits. Just tried that search again and this forum isn't even on the first page (I didn't look further). I do remember from my website marketing days that if you aren't in the first few hits, especially the first page of hits, then you will get very little traffic from the search indexing sites.

So BL, you are dead on. Especially in the days now where web search engines are willing to take payment for better results. They are supposed to tag those as "advertisements" but they do a great job of making them look like the first 2-3 search results. Not sure if there is a grass-roots effort we can make to help the sites search engine placement.

[SteveLW]

The SSRI and divorce thread here does show up on the second page of search results. That is good news. I believe it was higher back when I did the search 4 years ago, but that is better than nothing.

[SteveLW]

Just doing some testing, I searched on "how to stop divorce" and this site, let alone the forum, wasn't even in in the top 5 pages of results on Google. Keep scrolling and finally found it further down, but that is a lot of hits before this site comes up.

[SteveLW]

Watched an interesting short video on youtube last night. The young man was saying that when a woman breaks up with you, you should not react. His example was that the woman says "I think we should break up." His suggestion was that your response should be "Okay."

His point was that when you do not react the way she expects (to get emotional, to ask why, to beg, plead, reason) then she immediately starts to question herself. He claimed in the majority of cases they would say "I shouldn't have said that! I was just joking! I wanted to see what you reaction was." Or some variation therein.

This matches up perfectly with the advice of the forum. IF a LBS could remain neutral from second one, it would completely change the dynamic of their situation. Even the most determined WAS would start to wonder if they were doing the right thing. The emotional reaction that they expect just confirms for them that they are doing the right thing. They've prepared for that emotional reaction. They've probably played it over in their head before dropping the bomb.

I can say in my latest situation, that after 2 days of making the mistake of being emotional and reacting the way she expected me to, I remember MWD and her writings, and started to pull back from that. And the lack of surety on my wife's part was almost immediate after I started to back off and have more of an "okay" reaction. I believe that was a factor in my situation turning around more quickly than most.

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

[LH19]

I can say in my latest situation, that after 2 days of making the mistake of being emotional and reacting the way she expected me to, I remember MWD and her writings, and started to pull back from that. And the lack of surety on my wife's part was almost immediate after I started to back off and have more of an "okay" reaction. I believe that was a factor in my situation turning around more quickly than most.

If I remember correctly you dropped the bomb on her and she said ok and then you begged and pleaded for more than a couple of days and it wasn't until she realized her OM was a fraud and that she would have to get a job she started to rethink things. A real OM and a job probably you would have been toast like the rest of us. But we will never know.

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

You may need to reread your thread Steve.

[MLCxH]

4. Try to understand what is important to the LBS. When I was a newcomer, I mainly wanted specific advice on things I could do to get my WAW to stay in the house to increase the chances of R. I was handling myself well emotionally, so some of the advice such as moving on because "she fired me as H", was not helpful. Now, I eventually had to accept there was no path to R, but that was only after I explored the available paths and found them to either be a dead end or found them to be paths I did not want to walk down.

I wanted to clarify this point a bit since it seems to have been poorly worded and confusing to others.

I am not saying we should not give blunt and honest advice. In fact I had stated earlier in the same post that even when the OP does not agree with the advice, we should stick with honest advice because others may be reading it.

What I was trying to convey here is that we need to recognize what the person is looking for and base the reply on that. As an example, the two responses below convey the same message but the way it is delivered is different.

OP: What can I do to win my WAS back.

Response 1: "I know your goal is to R with your WAS. You may think your situation is unique but there is a lot in common with what we have seen in the sitch of many others over the years. You need to recognize that your W has fired you as a husband. This means the old R is dead and taking steps that you did as a H will not work. If you want to R with your WAS it has to be a new relationship. The best way to make it happen is to make her feel you have come to terms with the end of the current R. You need to detach, GAL.....etc etc"

Response 2: "You need to stop trying to R with your WAS. She fired you as H, so why are you still trying to act like a H to her?"

It is not about the lack of ability of the person to take 2x4s that are dished out to them. It is about YOU making them trust that 'YOU understand their sitch'. If the person feels you get their sitch, they will be receptive to your advice. If not, they will think you are repeating 'one size fits all' advice and tune you out.

Also want to clarify that this was not based on something Steve said specifically, but something that I have generally observed.

[MLCxH]

I can say in my latest situation, that after 2 days of making the mistake of being emotional and reacting the way she expected me to, I remember MWD and her writings, and started to pull back from that. And the lack of surety on my wife's part was almost immediate after I started to back off and have more of an "okay" reaction. I believe that was a factor in my situation turning around more quickly than most.

If I remember correctly you dropped the bomb on her and she said ok and then you begged and pleaded for more than a couple of days and it wasn't until she realized her OM was a fraud and that she would have to get a job she started to rethink things. A real OM and a job probably you would have been toast like the rest of us. But we will never know.

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

You may need to reread your thread Steve.

One point stood out to me as I read this. We all know that this is a crisis of the WAS and not the LBS. The LBS can only do things to prevent things from getting worse and more importantly focus on their own healing and moving forward. An LBS could do all the right things and the WAS may not care. On the other hand, an LBS could do all the wrong things and the WAS may choose to R.

Yet, there is a lot of cognitive bias in the forum that suggests that actions an LBS took helped with 'turning around situations'. Success or failure does not mean a particular approach is correct and it is important to remember that when we try to relate others' sitch to our own. More often than not, it is out of the hands of the LBS, which is why most of the advice is on self care and healing.

[LH19]

I can say in my latest situation, that after 2 days of making the mistake of being emotional and reacting the way she expected me to, I remember MWD and her writings, and started to pull back from that. And the lack of surety on my wife's part was almost immediate after I started to back off and have more of an "okay" reaction. I believe that was a factor in my situation turning around more quickly than most.

If I remember correctly you dropped the bomb on her and she said ok and then you begged and pleaded for more than a couple of days and it wasn't until she realized her OM was a fraud and that she would have to get a job she started to rethink things. A real OM and a job probably you would have been toast like the rest of us. But we will never know.

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

You may need to reread your thread Steve.

One point stood out to me as I read this. We all know that this is a crisis of the WAS and not the LBS. The LBS can only do things to prevent things from getting worse and more importantly focus on their own healing and moving forward. An LBS could do all the right things and the WAS may not care. On the other hand, an LBS could do all the wrong things and the WAS may choose to R.

Yet, there is a lot of cognitive bias in the forum that suggests that actions an LBS took helped with 'turning around situations'. Success or failure does not mean a particular approach is correct and it is important to remember that when we try to relate others' sitch to our own. More often than not, it is out of the hands of the LBS, which is why most of the advice is on self care and healing.

You are a very wise man MLCH and I still want an update. I believe this all to be fate and sometimes you don't find the reasons for a long, long time.

[SteveLW]

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

One point stood out to me as I read this. We all know that this is a crisis of the WAS and not the LBS. The LBS can only do things to prevent things from getting worse and more importantly focus on their own healing and moving forward. An LBS could do all the right things and the WAS may not care. On the other hand, an LBS could do all the wrong things and the WAS may choose to R.

Yet, there is a lot of cognitive bias in the forum that suggests that actions an LBS took helped with 'turning around situations'. Success or failure does not mean a particular approach is correct and it is important to remember that when we try to relate others' sitch to our own. More often than not, it is out of the hands of the LBS, which is why most of the advice is on self care and healing.

MLC well said. My point is that if LBS start trying to get really good at DBing from second 1, I think they give themselves the BEST chance of saving their marriage. It is no guarantee, mainly because BD is the culmination of months or years of the WAS getting to the crisis point.

I got lucky in that in 2005 my W when confronted immediately said she didn't want a D. It still took about 2 months before she was willing to really commit back to the marriage in full. And months before I could be sure of that. IN 2017, after moping around for two days (my threads make this point clear by the way) I remembered DBing techniques and started trying to put them into practice. I wasn't perfect at it, but got better as time went on. I can say that the more I embraced her plan of getting a job, getting an apartment, and getting a D, the less she seemed convinced that. And when I would get weak and temp check her, she always defaulted to, yes the plan above was still her plan.

But the key is that DBing is for the LBS, so they can move forward happy and healthy no matter what the WAS ultimately decides. We all come here wanting to save our marriages. We end up realizing we need to save ourselves.....and sometimes the marriage is saved in the process.

[BL42]

Maybe some still find it an find the plethora of information they are looking for and do not feel the need to register and post? I know we've had a lot of newcomers that have said in their first post that they had been lurking for a while. So maybe more people are trying to stay anonymous and take the readings they can do here and apply it to their situation.

It is a very common thing to see in an opening post. I did the same...certainly read a good bit before starting my own thread. I think it's natural to want to get a feel for the site and comfortable with it before sharing personal information, especially at a vulnerable time in our lives.

Unfortunately, most LBS that find their way here have already made the mistake of reacting emotionally for weeks and months.

I have a vague recollection of finding this site earlier on in my sitch not long after BD but then getting consumed with my day-to-day sitch. I "re-found" the site months later after consuming tons of other online resources and didn't start posting here until 5 months post-BD right around physical separation and D filing. I wish I had start a thread back in the beginning right when I found the forum initially. Not sure it would've changed the result with my marriage and the divorce, but do believe it would've sped up my strengthening and growth to move forward. I spun in a depression for several months as it was.

The honest answer is ------- this site has not grown.

You tube videos out there of Michele are old and out dated. She has no new presence. What she offers is her personal opinion and what has worked for some couples.

I'm not dissing Michele and her information. It is valuable. But, if you look at the decline of this site is because little new information is being fed into it. If Michele herself cannot free her time for a little attention to the board what about her coaches?

Unless new energy and blood is not pumped into this site it will continue to hover on life support.

KitCat is right. Engagement and fresh content by the founder and associated coaches would lead to more traffic here, and that ties back into my comment on SEO...for whatever reason the investment isn't there to promote the resource as much as it used to be promoted and as much as other sites are.

I do remember from my website marketing days that if you aren't in the first few hits, especially the first page of hits, then you will get very little traffic from the search indexing sites.

That's certainly true in many cases. I think in my case after BD I delved through multiple pages of search results with many different search parameters to find any and all resources that might make a difference, so some will do that, but certainly the top few or first page of results are going to get the bulk of the traffic.

As an example, the two responses below convey the same message but the way it is delivered is different.

It is not about the lack of ability of the person to take 2x4s that are dished out to them. It is about YOU making them trust that 'YOU understand their sitch'. If the person feels you get their sitch, they will be receptive to your advice. If not, they will think you are repeating 'one size fits all' advice and tune you out.

I agree w/MLCxH here. It's not that you shouldn't be honest or blunt but there's certainly a way to make the same point in a more caring and empathetic way which would be received better. You can deliver a message without being cringeworthy. Sometimes two posters make the same underlining point in a thread but I can see why one is received openly but the other feels like a personal attack.

One point stood out to me as I read this. We all know that this is a crisis of the WAS and not the LBS. The LBS can only do things to prevent things from getting worse and more importantly focus on their own healing and moving forward. An LBS could do all the right things and the WAS may not care. On the other hand, an LBS could do all the wrong things and the WAS may choose to R.

Yet, there is a lot of cognitive bias in the forum that suggests that actions an LBS took helped with 'turning around situations'. Success or failure does not mean a particular approach is correct and it is important to remember that when we try to relate others' sitch to our own. More often than not, it is out of the hands of the LBS, which is why most of the advice is on self care and healing.

Good post!

[SteveLW]

I do remember from my website marketing days that if you aren't in the first few hits, especially the first page of hits, then you will get very little traffic from the search indexing sites.

That's certainly true in many cases. I think in my case after BD I delved through multiple pages of search results with many different search parameters to find any and all resources that might make a difference, so some will do that, but certainly the top few or first page of results are going to get the bulk of the traffic.

BL, I was a lot like you. I was going 40-50 hits deep in my web searches. I remember finding this forum and reading from beginning to end all of the links Cadet provided in his welcome email. I was also reading 2-3 books a week at that point. I was voracious in my knowledge gathering. I was like the robot in Short Circuit: "More input, Steph-an-ie!" LOL

[Elbereth]

I’m still pretty much a newbie here compared to many of you. But I wanted to add a few comments based on what I’ve experienced thus far on this site.

PROs:

• As DB is not really out there promoting new content or new releases and there is so much other content out there, google is pushing it down. It’s the way google works, and keeping rank requires activity (linking/relinking) and or funds invested (keywords) and more. This is an issue, yes, but it’s not a sign of the lack of quality of this forum. It’s completely separate.
• The forum is public so many more people are being helped than you know even if they have not joined the forum. I’m amazed when I see the number of anonymous users on the site daily.
• There is so much value in seeing what others have gone through and these threads provide more than just glimpses like a book would. You can see changes over time as well as many more examples that you can relate to.
• There are many of you that continue to remain on this forum to offer support to the newbies. This is hugely valuable. Newbies can support each other but that is different than the guidance that those who have come before us can provide.

CONs:

• Sometimes the infighting over who’s advice is good or bad is a distraction. What is good for one is not good for another and vice versa. Sure, I’ve been offended by some of the advice given to me. And I have a feeling I have offended some others too. It is really hard when all we have are words on a page and we cannot see faces or sense the true emotion. It takes careful attention to try to read when one’s advice or 2x4s are aligned or not. I think seeing the responses to the others on the thread can help to show what advice style is working best for that person.
• The fact that this forum is public is part of the reason numbers might be dropping. With the internet mining and lack of privacy, it is very intimidating to discuss your sitch out here with details that might lead someone to identify the user as you, and use that against you in court, in relationships, or whatever.
• The forum program is outdated, hard to use on mobile devices and not slick like many other new options.

I’m sure I could come up with more, but that is a short list.

For me, this forum has been a lifesaver. I also wish I had known about it sooner. But no one really hunts down DBing book when things are going well. They find it when MRs are collapsing and may never be saved. So this site is really about saving ourselves and finding our own way. But that isn’t what the LBS is feeling when they arrive. You all have helped me to see that I must save myself. You all have also helped me to become a better partner for my next relationship. I am grateful. So very grateful. Thank you!

El

[SteveLW]

I’m still pretty much a newbie here compared to many of you. But I wanted to add a few comments based on what I’ve experienced thus far on this site.

PROs:

• As DB is not really out there promoting new content or new releases and there is so much other content out there, google is pushing it down. It’s the way google works, and keeping rank requires activity (linking/relinking) and or funds invested (keywords) and more. This is an issue, yes, but it’s not a sign of the lack of quality of this forum. It’s completely separate.
• The forum is public so many more people are being helped than you know even if they have not joined the forum. I’m amazed when I see the number of anonymous users on the site daily.
• There is so much value in seeing what others have gone through and these threads provide more than just glimpses like a book would. You can see changes over time as well as many more examples that you can relate to.
• There are many of you that continue to remain on this forum to offer support to the newbies. This is hugely valuable. Newbies can support each other but that is different than the guidance that those who have come before us can provide.

CONs:

• Sometimes the infighting over who’s advice is good or bad is a distraction. What is good for one is not good for another and vice versa. Sure, I’ve been offended by some of the advice given to me. And I have a feeling I have offended some others too. It is really hard when all we have are words on a page and we cannot see faces or sense the true emotion. It takes careful attention to try to read when one’s advice or 2x4s are aligned or not. I think seeing the responses to the others on the thread can help to show what advice style is working best for that person.
• The fact that this forum is public is part of the reason numbers might be dropping. With the internet mining and lack of privacy, it is very intimidating to discuss your sitch out here with details that might lead someone to identify the user as you, and use that against you in court, in relationships, or whatever.
• The forum program is outdated, hard to use on mobile devices and not slick like many other new options.

I’m sure I could come up with more, but that is a short list.

For me, this forum has been a lifesaver. I also wish I had known about it sooner. But no one really hunts down DBing book when things are going well. They find it when MRs are collapsing and may never be saved. So this site is really about saving ourselves and finding our own way. But that isn’t what the LBS is feeling when they arrive. You all have helped me to see that I must save myself. You all have also helped me to become a better partner for my next relationship. I am grateful. So very grateful. Thank you!

El

Dang E. You might consider yourself a newbie, but that was spot on! This may be the best post I've read here on this subject. So insightful, accurate and well said. And I concur 100% with every one of your points!

[Ready2Change]

Do you know the Sternberg's Triangulation Theory of Love?

Thanks for throwing this out there. I have been trying to recall the love single people should hold out for. Found it searching your words.

Consummate Love:Components: Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment

[KitCat]

Do you know the Sternberg's Triangulation Theory of Love?

Thanks for throwing this out there. I have been trying to recall the love single people should hold out for. Found it searching your words.

Consummate Love:Components: Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment

I'm living my life with intention. I'm dating with intention. This is my goal.

If someone tells me on the first date they're trouble at being monogamous, they aren't looking for long term commitment that ends in M, etc., I believe them. Its not my job to try to change them or try to sell them. We simply don't match.

One of the men I met on a dating site who I have chosen to remain friends with admitted "I don't see the point in M again as I've raised my family. I am looking for a long term committed relationship". Me: "I hear you and I think knowing what you want is huge. So many people out there are just winging it and hoping it just works out. I, however, loved being M and I would one day like that for myself". Him: "Well, I suppose if she really wanted M, I could be convinced" Me: Not my job to sell that to you. That leads to resentment. Say, we got M and then one day a big disagreement --- then there is "I didn't even want to get M... YOU did". Nope, sorry... moving on.

I know what I want. I'm not going to make a square peg fit a round hole.

AND ---- LH before you get there... pilot worked out the miscommunication but I'm being cautious as I'm trying my best to not make a square peg fit in a round hole!!!

[LH19]

Do you know the Sternberg's Triangulation Theory of Love?

Thanks for throwing this out there. I have been trying to recall the love single people should hold out for. Found it searching your words.

Consummate Love:Components: Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment

I'm living my life with intention. I'm dating with intention. This is my goal.

If someone tells me on the first date they're trouble at being monogamous, they aren't looking for long term commitment that ends in M, etc., I believe them. Its not my job to try to change them or try to sell them. We simply don't match.

One of the men I met on a dating site who I have chosen to remain friends with admitted "I don't see the point in M again as I've raised my family. I am looking for a long term committed relationship". Me: "I hear you and I think knowing what you want is huge. So many people out there are just winging it and hoping it just works out. I, however, loved being M and I would one day like that for myself". Him: "Well, I suppose if she really wanted M, I could be convinced" Me: Not my job to sell that to you. That leads to resentment. Say, we got M and then one day a big disagreement --- then there is "I didn't even want to get M... YOU did". Nope, sorry... moving on.

I know what I want. I'm not going to make a square peg fit a round hole.

AND ---- LH before you get there... pilot worked out the miscommunication but I'm being cautious as I'm trying my best to not make a square peg fit in a round hole!!!

Well if what you say is true and you want to be married again then IMO you are definitely wasting your time with the pilot.

[SteveLW]

R2C I do take a bit of an exception with any theory that tries to fit things into neat little categories. Something as complex as love is very, very difficult to decompose. Philosophers have tried to do so for centuries. And since no two people are the same, it is difficult to put someone into one of the neat categories. Truth is there are probably multiple types of love/Rs in any one given R. It has been a while since I visited the theory, I should probably do that, but that is my take on psychological theories that try to fit people or things into neat categories.

[Ready2Change]

R2C I do take a bit of an exception with any theory that tries to fit things into neat little categories.

Yes, I agree. Even those three might be part of a 80/20 rule.Or maybe a base to work off of. Or maybe a starting point. I think those three are a minimum for me.

[job]

Please start a new thread and link both threads together.

[SteveLW]

New thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2931028&#Post2931028