we're done again (#3)

[mako]

It’s time for an update. My last thread was already at about 100 so I’m just starting new.

Recap: bomb in Feb., that was obviously a long time coming. We go through mediation and are near D. W gets COVID in April and decides she wants to try to make the M work. Yet, when I make efforts she is not receptive and does nothing different on her own. Everything seems the same as it seemed the past few years, which was not good.

1st thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2915700#Post2915700
2nd thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2919733&page=1

Last I was here was my anniversary in mid June. I wondered how my W would acknowledge it. When I gave her flowers and said “Happy Anniversary” she said “Oh is that today?” There was no thank you, no happy A back, no sorry I forgot, nothing at all. I didn’t think I had any expectations, but I guess I did expect more than nothing.

In my mind, that was the end. She said she wanted to work on it, but had done nothing to show me that I meant anything to her. She had done nothing to show she even wanted to work on herself. I could wait if I saw progress, if I saw any effort, but there was none. I believe what LH has warned, that her coming back without making any effort isn't going to last, she was going to just walk again at some point.

I stopped putting in any effort to the MR myself, I stopped worrying about her so much. I always think I'm detached but am really not, but I think I finally reached my point of detachment. Funny what puts you over the edge. I spent a lot of time with the kids. I worked through feeling like a fool for thinking she wanted to work on it. I worked more and more on the idea that we would get a D, and got more comfortable with that. I haven't been 100% there yet, change is tough and it's scary, but I know it's coming.

This past weekend we had a big but short fight. I don’t need to get into the details, we both ended up saying we were unhappy but she cut off any discussion. Sunday she barely spoke to me all day and then texted me shortly before I went to bed that she’d been looking at apartments lately and found one she liked, she’d probably sign a lease soon. I said great, let me know so I can put the deposit in the budget. She said I should stay in the house so the kids can stay here when they are with me, but I didn't respond to that, not sure yet, our past agreement was to sell it.

I did ask her what happened in April—why did she stop the D process, say she wanted to try and make it work, but then ignore all of my attempts to communicate and work on the M. She said guilt over the kids and fear. I said that communication was always a problem and no M can work without it, and we should have gone to therapy to help facilitate that, and she didn’t respond.

There are some loose ends to clean up and I have to decide if I really want the house, but D is again imminent. I do think the past few months have made me more ready. I certainly could have done things differently, but I don't think the result would have changed, she never really seemed into it. And I think it was useful for me, for us to have this "last chance" and see how she treated it, to help me move on.

The more time passes the more I come to terms with the fact that it has been many years since I’ve been in a loving relationship so what would I really be losing here, what am I afraid of? Financially it’s going to be a big negative and that has given me pause too, but I’ll recover. It’s not great for the kids, but the unhealthy M we are modeling for them isn’t great either. The bottom line is, do I want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me? I don’t. I gave myself till Feb. to figure things out and here we are 6 months early, but I've figured it out.

[Thornton]

Hey Mako,

Clearly she's content with letting you go, so set her free.

Stop all pursuit, process your feelings, and begin to rebuild. And when you make it past the pain and disappointment, you will be positioned to either attract your W back, or someone better.

Thorn

[Ready2Change]

Clearly she's content with letting you go, so set her free. Stop all pursuit, process your feelings, and begin to rebuild.

Search for LFA in youtube. Start with "How get respect from women" or "The only power Men have in a relationship". Learn new ways of being and interacting.

Be the leader.

[BL42]

mako,

Last I was here was my anniversary in mid June. I wondered how my W would acknowledge it. When I gave her flowers and said “Happy Anniversary” she said “Oh is that today?” There was no thank you, no happy A back, no sorry I forgot, nothing at all. I didn’t think I had any expectations, but I guess I did expect more than nothing.

In my mind, that was the end. She said she wanted to work on it, but had done nothing to show me that I meant anything to her. She had done nothing to show she even wanted to work on herself. I could wait if I saw progress, if I saw any effort, but there was none. I believe what LH has warned, that her coming back without making any effort isn't going to last, she was going to just walk again at some point.

Sorry your anniversary didn't work out the way you had hoped.

I stopped putting in any effort to the MR myself, I stopped worrying about her so much. I always think I'm detached but am really not, but I think I finally reached my point of detachment. Funny what puts you over the edge. I spent a lot of time with the kids. I worked through feeling like a fool for thinking she wanted to work on it. I worked more and more on the idea that we would get a D, and got more comfortable with that. I haven't been 100% there yet, change is tough and it's scary, but I know it's coming.

It's probably going to take quite awhile to get fully (or mostly) detached. I'm 1.5yr from BD, 1yr from physical separation, and officially D a few months and still working on it.

This past weekend we had a big but short fight. I don’t need to get into the details, we both ended up saying we were unhappy but she cut off any discussion. Sunday she barely spoke to me all day and then texted me shortly before I went to bed that she’d been looking at apartments lately and found one she liked, she’d probably sign a lease soon. I said great, let me know so I can put the deposit in the budget.

Careful making statements/promises on the budget and apartment deposit. D becomes a financial negotiation and do you really want to sign up for paying for her apartment as she's leaving you? Don't offer up free money at this point.

She said I should stay in the house so the kids can stay here when they are with me, but I didn't respond to that, not sure yet, our past agreement was to sell it.

Good job thinking about it, but (and I forget the age of your kids) consider you staying with the kids at the house they're accustomed to and how that'll 1) provide comfort for them and 2) shape the way they look at things in the future (E.g., mommy and daddy both moved to different places vs. mommy moved out of our house and daddy stayed)

I did ask her what happened in April—why did she stop the D process, say she wanted to try and make it work, but then ignore all of my attempts to communicate and work on the M. She said guilt over the kids and fear. I said that communication was always a problem and no M can work without it, and we should have gone to therapy to help facilitate that, and she didn’t respond.

She should feel guilty about the kids. She's upsetting their lives for her own selfish reasons.

There are some loose ends to clean up and I have to decide if I really want the house, but D is again imminent. I do think the past few months have made me more ready. I certainly could have done things differently, but I don't think the result would have changed, she never really seemed into it. And I think it was useful for me, for us to have this "last chance" and see how she treated it, to help me move on.

Sorry man. Glad to hear you're more accepting. At least you know in your heart you tried and did what you though was right to save the marriage. You're probably right it's on her and you couldn't have changed it.

The more time passes the more I come to terms with the fact that it has been many years since I’ve been in a loving relationship so what would I really be losing here, what am I afraid of? Financially it’s going to be a big negative and that has given me pause too, but I’ll recover. It’s not great for the kids, but the unhealthy M we are modeling for them isn’t great either. The bottom line is, do I want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me? I don’t. I gave myself till Feb. to figure things out and here we are 6 months early, but I've figured it out.

Hang in there. Stay around here. Keep working on yourself and GAL when you don't have the kids. Hope to hear a good update soon.

[LH19]

I believe what LH has warned, that her coming back without making any effort isn't going to last, she was going to just walk again at some point.

Mako sorry to hear about your latest update. Unfortunately this is very predictable and why I pressed you so much to make her work for it. Dbing has a lot to do with timing and I felt you had a small window to get her to recommit. I took a lot of flack for it as certain members where trying to push me off the board. I have always felt that relationships are about value and if it is not something you have to work for it is not sustainable. Taking a WS back to easy is basically a stay of execution. Your journey is just beginning because your W will surely struggle in the coming years with three young kids so you may have another opportunity down the road if you so choose.

[97Hope]

It's painful but necessary to truly evaluate the relationship they are offering (or not offering) and to analyze and be honest about what we have been/are willing to accept.

It took me a long time to get to the point where I did not want my XH anymore, but I had to list out the reality of a R with him. It helped so much. For a long time after BD, we look at the R through those rose-colored glasses, but as we heal and process, we can see it all.

I agree with BL42!! DO NOT agree to anything financial. It's a business deal. Full stop. Talk to a L and take everything you can. You are dealing with a person you don't know anymore, who is not interested in your best, they are only thinking about how they feel and they are in the center of every choice they make right now. I fought hard for my settlement and I am so glad I did. I let my L handle everything and I have no regrets. Ironically, my XH respected the heck out of me (that's not why I did it).

Bottom line, don't try and be a nice guy when it comes to finances.

[wayfarer]

LH I have to disagree with you here. It wasn't accountability it was intention. There was so little time in this situation that demanding MR or anything else wouldn't have made a difference. And likely would've been seen as pressure and just closed the door sooner. She was never all in. I was clear that I was concerned about that. I think everyone was. She did what most WS/WAS do. She said things she didn't mean to buy time to decide. As you said a stay of execution. But I think that stay of execution helped mako figure out what he wants and needs, and stbxw isn't it.

I'm sorry mako. It's unfortunate to have some hope and to have it all come crashing down. But like LH said you do have really little kids you have a long road ahead of you with stbxw. There's a lot of room for a lot of things to happen. Or maybe like my first MR maybe this is the best thing for everyone. Only time will tell.

And I'm jumping on the bandwagon here. Talk to your L before setting that apartment money aside. It seems like your money is all still together. Maybe you guys should focus on untangling your finances before she leaves the house entirely. You shouldn't have to bank roll her leaving you.

[mako]

Mako sorry to hear about your latest update. Unfortunately this is very predictable and why I pressed you so much to make her work for it. Dbing has a lot to do with timing and I felt you had a small window to get her to recommit. I took a lot of flack for it as certain members where trying to push me off the board. I have always felt that relationships are about value and if it is not something you have to work for it is not sustainable. Taking a WS back to easy is basically a stay of execution. Your journey is just beginning because your W will surely struggle in the coming years with three young kids so you may have another opportunity down the road if you so choose.

Yeah, in the back of my mind I felt like you were right, but that if she was going to work on things that would change things. She talked about IC before we got back together so I thought she'd do that at least. I'm not sure if I ever had a window, really. As I said in my last thread she did seem to change for the better somewhat at first, but that was kind of fleeting and it wasn't long at all before it just felt like the same old last few years. Not worth wondering about really, it doesn't matter, though I know better for the future.

Thornton, thanks, you're right that it's time to move on. R2C you're right that I am going to have some work to do on myself. BL and 97 thanks for the support. I'm getting to a better place as far as realizing what I want.

Oh and no, I didn't agree to financially support her new place, but I can understand how it came off that way in my post. She is clear that is all her, and our separation agreement says so too.

[Ready2Change]

R2C you're right that I am going to have some work to do on myself.

That is one thing that is totally in your control. It is a continuous process. Pick areas that you want to change, do the research, and then implement the changes. Even if you only make 2 changes a week, that will be 100 changes in a year. How different will your life be?

[mako]

Thank you too wayfarer, I missed your post last time, the board is sooooo slow these days. Yeah, you are exactly right that this little stay did me some good in figuring things out for myself. As for her, I don't know if it was lack of accountability or what but I don't think she was ever really back. Maybe if I had tried to hold her accountable she might have just said forget it in April, or maybe just gone through the motions for a little, I don't know. I think she got sick and scared and wanted to come back, but for whatever reason it wasn't worth it to her to try any harder than that and she hoped it would just improve on its own. I doubt I'll ever really know, it is what it is.

Either way, we will have a relationship for at least the next 14 years so I hope we can at least communicate and be on the same page for parenting.

[Traveler]

Hi Mako,

I'm sorry for what you're going through. That's a great, healthy sentiment there--"We will have a relationship for at least the next 14 years so I hope we can at least communicate and be on the same page for parenting." The kids may be parented slightly differently at each house, and that's okay, letting go of some control is part of this process. Hopefully, you can at least back each other up and work through differences for the items you need to coordinate on (daycares, schools, projects, medical visits and procedures, or sports). It's great you're able to think about this so early on.

[LH19]

LH I have to disagree with you here. It wasn't accountability it was intention. There was so little time in this situation that demanding MR or anything else wouldn't have made a difference.

It's ok to disagree with me as long as you don't call me an a-hole lol. Probably wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome but there is a difference in going out with strength or going out weak. I wish I would have gone out strong.

And likely would've been seen as pressure and just closed the door sooner. She was never all in. I was clear that I was concerned about that. I think everyone was. She did what most WS/WAS do.

I agree but put her to the test. You want to work on the marriage then show me.

She said things she didn't mean to buy time to decide. As you said a stay of execution.

Right. You never want to give them time to decide. Are you in or are you out?

But I think that stay of execution helped mako figure out what he wants and needs, and stbxw isn't it.

He would have eventually figured that out anyway.

I'm sorry mako. It's unfortunate to have some hope and to have it all come crashing down. But like LH said you do have really little kids you have a long road ahead of you with stbxw. There's a lot of room for a lot of things to happen. Or maybe like my first MR maybe this is the best thing for everyone. Only time will tell.

Wait until she has some dating encounters with weirdos. I believe Mako's main issues were affection. She's about to see some real issues lol. Right G-money?

This is just another sad story where three kids are going to suffer because their mom looks at Facebook too much or watches too many rom-com movies. Very sad!

[Gekko]

Mako,

1. What are your current GAL activities?
2. You are correct in your first post in this thread - you do not want someone who doesn't want you.
3. Your kids will come out of this just fine. Be the best parent on the planet and make it so.
4. Keep the house if financially possible, you will be happy you did. You can always reevaluate later.
5. Response to your first post - No fighting with your W. Always stay cool and in control. No fighting.
6. No mention of counseling or reconciliation. Shhhhhhh.
7. Also as to W, STFU about anything other than business/logistics.
8. Re: any request from W you are not prepared to discuss - "I'll have to think about that".
9. ABA Always Be Attractive. Don't be unattractive. Be a strong man. Be strong.
10. You are not a victim.
11. When your W gets COVID again and wants to rethink D because she's sick, be skeptical.
12. Hey have I asked you What are your current GAL activities?

Hang in there.

[mako]

Hi Gekko.

Mako,

1. What are your current GAL activities?
...
12. Hey have I asked you What are your current GAL activities?

GAL is always a weakness of mine, I workout regularly and do other things here and there but not a ton. At the same time, as I understand it GAL is for me and my amounts are sufficient for me. I spend a lot of time with the kids.

2. You are correct in your first post in this thread - you do not want someone who doesn't want you.

Yep, this is a key that every LBS needs to realize. At the start we mostly romanticize the M and remember only the good parts, which is usually only half the story. But even if it was all good what matters for the future is how everybody is going to be, not how they were.

And really, for at least 3 years I’ve lived with someone who is neutral at best, showing little love or kindness or support, and at worst someone highly critical with vast amounts of anger and resentment that often seep out. So what am I doing here if that's all I'm going to see?

3. Your kids will come out of this just fine. Be the best parent on the planet and make it so.
4. Keep the house if financially possible, you will be happy you did. You can always reevaluate later.

Agree, they will do fine if we do our jobs as parents (which really isn't any different than if we stayed M, the parents have to do their jobs) so that's my priority. We've both now agreed that I'll keep the house. Like you said, I can always reevaluate, but I can't change my mind later if I sell it. So for now I will keep it.

5. Response to your first post - No fighting with your W. Always stay cool and in control. No fighting.

This is good advice. It's tough to stay cool when someone blows up at you, and I often feel a need to defend myself, but I know it's not necessary. This is a good 180 for me, in general, to just pick my battles and not need to win or be right all the time.

6. No mention of counseling or reconciliation. Shhhhhhh.
...
11. When your W gets COVID again and wants to rethink D because she's sick, be skeptical.

Right, I am not interested at this point, that ship has sailed. I said we should have been doing that, not that we should.

If she changes her mind again…I am not making a decision right now, I don’t have to and I will think on it if the time ever comes. But if I were to take her back I would have a list of requirements that I didn’t have last time.

7. Also as to W, STFU about anything other than business/logistics.
8. Re: any request from W you are not prepared to discuss - "I'll have to think about that".

Yeah, that is basically how I've been. Like a neutral coworker basically.

9. ABA Always Be Attractive. Don't be unattractive. Be a strong man. Be strong.
10. You are not a victim.

No I'm not a victim, and playing one isn't attractive. I was definitely part of the problem and need to work on those parts, including being a more attractive me. I have attracted women before and am sure I’ll be able to do so again, though it’s something I will have to work on as I'm out of practice. But I'll be fine, I know things that need improvement on my end.

Brief update: Not much has changed. W went from “I will probably sign a lease tomorrow” to still looking 3 weeks later. We also will need to change our agreement, as our original was to sell the house, so I have been pushing on that, now she is the one slowing down. In my state D can be filed once we have an agreement, but with no agreement we need a year separation, so until the agreement is worked out we are just in a holding pattern. I have been looking forward to the future quite a bit lately and am ready for her to leave and get started on my new life.

[Gekko]

"It's tough to stay cool when someone blows up at you, and I often feel a need to defend myself, but I know it's not necessary. This is a good 180 for me, in general, to just pick my battles and not need to win or be right all the time."
___________________________________

Staying cool when someone is unleashing their emotional storm on you is the ultimate display of strength. This is true in a MR or any other R, including work Rs, etc. In an even broader sense, staying cool in any stormy, stressful situation, is the ultimate display of strength. Emotional strength, composure, mental toughness, control. This is true strength.

There is almost never a need to defend yourself other than physically. Verbal defense equates to defensiveness and this is getting into what should not be done which is arguing. No arguing. Why is there not a need to defend yourself? Because your W cannot hurt you. She does not have that power unless you give it to her, and you should not. She is not a threat, and if not then there is nothing to defend against. And as a corollary, there is no need to pick battles as there are no battles. Again, battles sound like arguing.

Also when I wrote don't be a victim I just want to be clear that I was not suggesting that you have been playing the victim card, I was just making a general point so with that said my hope is you did not take that comment as a personal critique. The big point of the victim reference in terms of not being one is I believe there is great value in the post-BD struggle to take responsibility and might i go so far as to say focus only on your responsibility, even if just as a mental exercise. AKA "Hey I married her, it was my choice, no gun to the head, i saw the red flags, I should have known better, I did xyz wrong in the R, etc etc" Take ownership, there is alot of power in ownership. Again Mako this point is not a specific comment to you aka "Mako is ducking responsibility", but as a general thought as I ramble here.

Keep on keep on man, the future is limitless.

[Ready2Change]

what should not be done which is arguing. No arguing.

When I feel that urge to argue, I focus on relaxing myself and switch to listen and validate mode. That instantly changes the dynamics. People want to be herd and understood.

[mako]

I’ve been gone a long time, figured I’d come back and do an update.

After basically dropping the second bomb the end of July, W finally moved out in October. She is about 45 minutes away, and we each have the kids every other week. The older two go to school near my house so on her weeks she brings them over in the morning and picks them up after. That’s really nice cause I get to see them every school day. The youngest goes to day care close to my house, but I don’t usually see her.

At first we were selling the house, then I was going to keep it and buy her out, and now I am going to sell it again. It is too big and the land is too much to take care of with one person, we’ve only been here less than 4 years so I’m not very attached, and I don’t particularly like the area. I actually like W’s area, there is a lot more to do there and we used to live there so I am familiar with it. I also dislike being so far from the kids, and it would be 45 minutes closer to my dad and the rest of my family. So I’m thinking of moving around there. I think it would be better for both me and the kids (me a place I like more, the kids not having to commute so far half of the school days).

I told W early on that D is her want so she needs to deal with the logistics. We have a separation agreement from last March so the financial stuff is agreed to and D wouldn’t be hard, we will just need to have a lawyer finalize certain things with my pension and retirement accounts. I am not in a rush because once it happens I will be paying her almost $2000/month (state formula based on incomes), so if she wants that she can deal with it. She is lazy and I can see it dragging on like this for some time. Whatever, we are D in my mind so it doesn’t matter when it officially happens. I think morally I would not date while still married but I am not ready to date yet so it doesn't matter.

We don’t interact much. We discuss logistics with the kids, most often by text, and that’s about it. Like I said she does drop off/pick up every day on her weeks, but half the time she doesn’t even get out of the car. We still don’t communicate all that well, the biggest problem of our marriage, but I think we do enough as necessary for the kids.

One of the more interesting things, to me, is that I am not at all attracted to her anymore. As of last May or June I was still very attracted to her, but now that is not there at all. I think that’s a very good sign for how my detachment has gone.

How am I doing? I am ok. Being a single parent of three is a lot of work, so on my weeks I am mostly swamped. On my off weeks I have been mostly fixing up various things prepping to sell the house. I am very much an introvert and I don’t need a lot socially, but I have been getting out there a little and doing enough GAL for me. I still get sad sometimes. But I find I’m not missing what I had as much as I’m missing what I wanted—I always realize that what I had wasn’t cutting it and I'm idealizing things. I am in IC and that’s going fine.

The kids are doing worse than me. The middle one seems fine and never talks about any of this. At least once a week the youngest asks me when Mommy and Daddy will live together again and then goes on about how she wishes that would happen. The oldest has gotten violent at school at times and got suspended once, and he has explicitly said he’s acting out cause he's mad that we are splitting up. He’s in IC too now so I hope he can work through that. I think a lot of times when I get sad I’m sad for the life that I wanted them to have that I know they now won’t. I can do my best for them but nothing will be the same as having their parents together as a loving family. I know I will be alright, they are still my biggest concern in all this.

[LH19]

M,

Great to hear from you and I am really sorry what is going on with your children. Hopefully they will start to adjust. Sounds like you are doing well. Do you think it’s because this isn’t your first rodeo? Wow your stbxw travels 45 mins everyday on her week so it’s an extra hour and a half out of her day. So as always I am curious if an om has popped up?

Anyways thanks for popping in for an update. Another very sad story we’re three children have to suffer because a persons expectations were not met. Take care Mako.

[SteveLW]

mako, great update!

One clarification, GAL is less about being social, and more about staying busy. So find GAL activities that are not social. I am an omnivert, and as I age am trending more and more towards the introvert side of that. So I focused on a lot of GAL activities that were solo in nature. Hunting, ATVing, the gun range, reading, watching movies and videos. Things that kept me busy but weren't inherently social, and in some cases were quite solitude in nature. I encourage you to do similar. I know a lot of the GAL advice centers on being social, but it doesn't have to be.

[mako]

Thanks LH. I do think I'm doing pretty well. I think part of it is not my first rodeo, part of it is that the M was slowly dying for a long time so I kind of did a lot of the grieving for the M already. It's been almost 4 years that I've been thinking we are probably heading toward a D, BD wasn't exactly a surprise you know? I've been in IC off and on since 2019 which I'm sure helps too.

I'm also shocked that she does this commute all the time. And it's worse than just commuting because it's here and back twice, so 3 hours a day in the car on her week. Can't imagine her gas expense. [censored] for the kids to spend so much time in the car too. She claimed there were no reasonable places to rent near by, I looked a bit and thought her standards were too high and also thought she was biased because one of her friends from work lives near there, who knows? I have no idea if an OM exists, I wouldn't be surprised since if you recall she was buying new lingerie and carrying around condoms a year ago so why not now. But I wouldn't know, I see her house for about 5 minutes every two weeks and on my weeks with the kids we don't talk unless something comes up with them. At this point it doesn't matter anyway.

Steve, thanks, good point about the GAL. I think you're right that being busy is the key, however that works out, just get out of the house and enjoy yourself. I enjoy various outdoor things, which can be a little tougher in the winter time but the weather should be turning shortly. I do feel like I'm constantly busy so I am probably doing alright.

[LH19]

Three hours a day! Never doubt the determination of a WW lol. She can’t be liking this gases prices right now lol. Boy your kids are young too and are going to resent her for doing this to them. Your W is at the perfect MLC/ Grass is greener stage. Anyways glad to see you are doing well. Anything we can help you with or have you waived the white flag?

[BL42]

mako,

Good to see an update. I just re-read your thread again to get the full background/context.

After basically dropping the second bomb the end of July, W finally moved out in October.

Sorry the recon didn't work out but it never sounded like she was fully "in" and you mentioned the relationship being in a bad spot for years, so glad to see you're moving forward.

She is about 45 minutes away, and we each have the kids every other week. The older two go to school near my house so on her weeks she brings them over in the morning and picks them up after. That’s really nice cause I get to see them every school day. The youngest goes to day care close to my house, but I don’t usually see her.

Fantastic you get to see your kids on a regular basis during your "OFF" weeks. I have the same luxury in my sitch based on my virtual job and work schedule. Definitely a concern of mine with the D to miss out on half my kids' lives, so have done anything I can to stay engaged.

At first we were selling the house, then I was going to keep it and buy her out, and now I am going to sell it again. It is too big and the land is too much to take care of with one person, we’ve only been here less than 4 years so I’m not very attached, and I don’t particularly like the area. I actually like W’s area, there is a lot more to do there and we used to live there so I am familiar with it. I also dislike being so far from the kids, and it would be 45 minutes closer to my dad and the rest of my family. So I’m thinking of moving around there. I think it would be better for both me and the kids (me a place I like more, the kids not having to commute so far half of the school days).

Sounds like you've given it some thought so don't want to argue with your pros & cons, but believe you should really think about a move like this. Being 45 mins away I assume the kids will have to change schools and perhaps lose some friends? Not the end of the world - many families move (I did in 3rd grade for my dad's job) - but another disruption for them to consider. Also, right now YOU are their home base. They're familiar with your house/town/school. The presumption of the court is typically to have the kids stay in the school/town they're used to unless both parents agree. You get to see them almost every day because W needs you to help before/after school, but if you move closer that may change. And what is W has OM in this other town and you see them around or they break up and she decides to move 45 mins somewhere else? Right now you're the stable constant for the kids and have "home field advantage". You'll be giving that up.

Hate to frame it in a competition between parents because ideally that should not be the case in D, but it often does happen so even if it doesn't feel that way right now, guard yourself against it. I know based on my ExW's family exFIL feels exMIL played every card to "win" the kids. Hopefully that won't be the case in your sitch; just be mindful of the "advantages" you currently have. Hate to sound cynical, just want you to factor in the advantages you currently have.

If it's really best for your kids and for you, then go for it.

I told W early on that D is her want so she needs to deal with the logistics. We have a separation agreement from last March so the financial stuff is agreed to and D wouldn’t be hard, we will just need to have a lawyer finalize certain things with my pension and retirement accounts. I am not in a rush because once it happens I will be paying her almost $2000/month (state formula based on incomes), so if she wants that she can deal with it. She is lazy and I can see it dragging on like this for some time. Whatever, we are D in my mind so it doesn’t matter when it officially happens.

I like the sound of saving $2000/mo - I feel you there! - just make sure to consult with a L to make sure the longer marriage isn't biasing spousal support or any other potential consequences of dragging it out.

I think morally I would not date while still married but I am not ready to date yet so it doesn't matter.

Same here. I respect that stance. You'll be able to say confidently to your kids (and yourself) you dating did not factor into the demise of the marriage / splitting up the family.

One of the more interesting things, to me, is that I am not at all attracted to her anymore. As of last May or June I was still very attracted to her, but now that is not there at all. I think that’s a very good sign for how my detachment has gone.

Agreed - sounds like you're making progress w/detachment.

Being a single parent of three is a lot of work, so on my weeks I am mostly swamped.

I hear you there!

The kids are doing worse than me. The middle one seems fine and never talks about any of this. At least once a week the youngest asks me when Mommy and Daddy will live together again and then goes on about how she wishes that would happen. The oldest has gotten violent at school at times and got suspended once, and he has explicitly said he’s acting out cause he's mad that we are splitting up. He’s in IC too now so I hope he can work through that. I think a lot of times when I get sad I’m sad for the life that I wanted them to have that I know they now won’t. I can do my best for them but nothing will be the same as having their parents together as a loving family. I know I will be alright, they are still my biggest concern in all this.

This is the heartbreaking part to me. You & I having worked to process through everything know we'll be alright, but hate to see anything bad happen to the kids...especially something so life changing and dramatic as splitting their family apart.

Wow your stbxw travels 45 mins everyday on her week so it’s an extra hour and a half out of her day.

I'm also shocked that she does this commute all the time. And it's worse than just commuting because it's here and back twice, so 3 hours a day in the car on her week. Can't imagine her gas expense. [censored] for the kids to spend so much time in the car too. She claimed there were no reasonable places to rent near by, I looked a bit and thought her standards were too high and also thought she was biased because one of her friends from work lives near there, who knows?

Three hours a day! Never doubt the determination of a WW lol. She can’t be liking this gases prices right now lol. Boy your kids are young too and are going to resent her for doing this to them.

This does seem crazy. How can a parent move so far away from your kids' home base? It also sounds untenable. There's another poster (Drh2001?) who's W went as far across state lines and almost as far away and he has the kids most of the weeks. The kids are going to resent her for it, and she's going to start resenting it as well. I know you're considering moving to be closer, but she can't have banked on you doing that. Wonder what her long term plan was? Likely didn't have one. It's going to cause on a strain on her and any potential OM too I bet.

So as always I am curious if an om has popped up?

I have no idea if an OM exists, I wouldn't be surprised since if you recall she was buying new lingerie and carrying around condoms a year ago so why not now.

I wonder if the 45 min move wasn't about another man more so than a reasonable place to rent. Though, like you said it doesn't matter now. Your kids being a little older you'd think you might get a clue about it from them. At least she didn't move a guy right in with them off the bat.

Keep up being a great dad to your kids and keep staying busy on your OFF weeks. You're making progress. You'll get there...

[mako]

Three hours a day! Never doubt the determination of a WW lol. She can’t be liking this gases prices right now lol. Boy your kids are young too and are going to resent her for doing this to them. Your W is at the perfect MLC/ Grass is greener stage. Anyways glad to see you are doing well. Anything we can help you with or have you waived the white flag?

Yeah I’ve waived the white flag as far as the marriage goes.

We had something good, once, though that was a really long time ago. The kids would most certainly be better off with us together (assuming it was a good relationship). Financially we’d be better off. Those external factors make a lot of sense.

But a lot has changed. Last year, I freely went back to her with no demands. Now, that wouldn’t happen. I feel like she just strung me along and it burned up most of my goodwill, I don’t really trust her anymore. I mentioned probably in thread 1 that I wrote a love letter early on in the sitch, I couldn’t honestly say many of those things today. Even now, with a lower bar to meet, our communication remains poor. I have a lot of resentment that I’m working on. Could I go back if I made a bunch of demands that she was willing to meet? I don't know, there’s just a lot of baggage. Nothing is necessarily a deal breaker that couldn’t be worked out, but it would take a lot of work, and I’m not sure she’s worth it now. She’s been pushing me away for 3 or 4 years and she finally succeeded.

So yeah, I’ve waived the white flag. It helps to write stuff out though and have you all call things out if needed.

[mako]

Hi BL,

Fantastic you get to see your kids on a regular basis during your "OFF" weeks. I have the same luxury in my sitch based on my virtual job and work schedule. Definitely a concern of mine with the D to miss out on half my kids' lives, so have done anything I can to stay engaged.

Yeah, it really is nice to still see them most days, I don’t feel so far apart from them even if it’s just like 30 minutes in the morning and afternoon.

One thing I should add, a big plus to all this is I’ve improved my mindset with my kids. I wasn’t always very good at being a father. I always loved them completely of course, but they often overwhelmed me and parenting was always something that stressed me out. That’s not really the case all that much anymore. I hate having them just half the time, but I think it makes me appreciate them more and keeps me rejuvenated.

Sounds like you've given it some thought so don't want to argue with your pros & cons, but believe you should really think about a move like this. {snip, a bunch of valid reasons not to move}

If it's really best for your kids and for you, then go for it.

I know. Everything you say is part of the consideration, I've gone back and forth at times. It’s tough, and hard to figure out what the right thing is for all of us. So far moving feels like the right thing. I’m not all that concerned about the younger two, the oldest I am.

One might say "just wait and figure things out, you don't have to decide yet," and that is also partly true. But if I did that I would need to get ready to buy W out (at current very high values) so I'd basically be making the decision anyway.

This does seem crazy. How can a parent move so far away from your kids' home base? It also sounds untenable. There's another poster (Drh2001?) who's W went as far across state lines and almost as far away and he has the kids most of the weeks. The kids are going to resent her for it, and she's going to start resenting it as well. I know you're considering moving to be closer, but she can't have banked on you doing that. Wonder what her long term plan was? Likely didn't have one. It's going to cause on a strain on her and any potential OM too I bet.

I wonder if the 45 min move wasn't about another man more so than a reasonable place to rent. Though, like you said it doesn't matter now. Your kids being a little older you'd think you might get a clue about it from them. At least she didn't move a guy right in with them off the bat.

Keep up being a great dad to your kids and keep staying busy on your OFF weeks. You're making progress. You'll get there...

I don’t understand it. When she moved out I was still planning to keep the house so she didn’t have any expectation for the driving to improve. I think she just didn’t really think of how big a deal it was going to be. It certainly could have been based on some OM, but I never really got that impression even though like I said I wouldn’t really know.

Thanks for the input!

[LH19]

Yeah I’ve waived the white flag as far as the marriage goes.

Let her go. That is all you can do.

We had something good, once, though that was a really long time ago.

Amen

The kids would most certainly be better off with us together (assuming it was a good relationship).

Amen

Financially we’d be better off. Those external factors make a lot of sense.

Amen

Last year, I freely went back to her with no demands.

I remember. I took a lot of heat from the board for saying that was a bad idea.

I have a lot of resentment that I’m working on.

Time and space to eat through it.

Could I go back if I made a bunch of demands that she was willing to meet? I don't know, there’s just a lot of baggage. Nothing is necessarily a deal breaker that couldn’t be worked out, but it would take a lot of work, and I’m not sure she’s worth it now. She’s been pushing me away for 3 or 4 years and she finally succeeded.

What do you think made her push you away?

[BL42]

mako,

I think she just didn’t really think of how big a deal it was going to be.

I'd be willing to bet this is the case. So often the WAS is emotions & reactions and not logic & planning.

It really is going to wear on her as time goes on. Besides her commute time and gas money, in relationships with the kids and dating partners.

Just make sure moving closer (if you choose to do so) is in the best interest of you and the kids and leave the impact to her out of the equation.

[mako]

What do you think made her push you away?

She told me around the first BD a year ago that she pushed me away hoping that would cause me to do more to come closer. Apparently her being cold and distant was going to cause me to decide to be more affectionate. Instead it made me think she was totally uninterested in me so I focused my energy on me and the kids.

Like I said, communication was poor.

I suppose it's not the craziest idea. DBers say the LBS has to drop the rope and let go and maybe the WAS will come back. But I think feeling ignored works differently when you're the WAS wanting to leave vs being actively in the relationship. I understand too that she felt ignored and this probably felt like some kind of last resort, but really we should have been in counseling. Anyway, it didn't work.

mako,

I think she just didn’t really think of how big a deal it was going to be.

I'd be willing to bet this is the case. So often the WAS is emotions & reactions and not logic & planning.

It really is going to wear on her as time goes on. Besides her commute time and gas money, in relationships with the kids and dating partners.

Just make sure moving closer (if you choose to do so) is in the best interest of you and the kids and leave the impact to her out of the equation.

I think it's wearing on her now. She just mentioned today that she's thinking of moving back closer when her lease ends if I don't move (she knows I am planning to but not set in stone yet).

You're correct, any move (and any decision from here on, really) is based on the best interests of me and the kids, period, not hers.

[Ready2Change]

The middle one seems fine and never talks about any of this. At least once a week the youngest asks me when Mommy and Daddy will live together again and then goes on about how she wishes that would happen. The oldest has gotten violent at school at times and got suspended once, and he has explicitly said he’s acting out cause he's mad that we are splitting up. He’s in IC too now so I hope he can work through that. I think a lot of times when I get sad I’m sad for the life that I wanted them to have that I know they now won’t. I can do my best for them but nothing will be the same as having their parents together as a loving family. I know I will be alright, they are still my biggest concern in all this.

Validate the youngest, relating to her emotions. Same with the others. One of the best skills to have, teach them.
Glad your oldest is in IC. IC is great for the kids. One of mine children is more "healthy" than I due to effective IC.


Mine were 5,7,9 @ time of Divorce. 19,21,22 now. Every other week with me. They are doing well, but you never really know how D truly effects. them. We all just do our best to love them and get them ready to be out in the real world. This experience may toughen them up earlier than we would like, but they may be able to deal with other issues in the future much better.


Glad to see an update!

Wish you well,
R2C

[Ready2Change]

I understand too that she felt ignored and this probably felt like some kind of last resort, but really we should have been in counseling. Anyway, it didn't work.

Do you interact with her different now? And probably more important, women in general?

[mako]

Validate the youngest, relating to her emotions. Same with the others. One of the best skills to have, teach them.
Glad your oldest is in IC. IC is great for the kids. One of mine children is more "healthy" than I due to effective IC.


Mine were 5,7,9 @ time of Divorce. 19,21,22 now. Every other week with me. They are doing well, but you never really know how D truly effects. them. We all just do our best to love them and get them ready to be out in the real world. This experience may toughen them up earlier than we would like, but they may be able to deal with other issues in the future much better.


Glad to see an update!

Wish you well,
R2C

Thanks for this. Yours were pretty close to where mine are. I know kids of D turn out fine all the time, but it's still nice to hear about. I'll never know how D really affected them, how they would have turned out otherwise, so it's pointless to worry about. As you say, all we can do is give them all the love we can and prepare them for the world.

Yes, I do validate all of them. That's a positive of all this, DBing gets you into working on that so I am better at it than I used to be.

Do you interact with her different now? And probably more important, women in general?

I treat her like a coworker that I don't particularly like. She gets all the business and logistical info she needs in a professional manner. I don't joke around with her or show her much personality. I don't initiate contact unless I need something from her such as kids or financial related. She will still vent to me about things, rarely, mostly about work but sometimes about how hard life is lately. I validate these things.

Women in general, I suppose I'm more open with than I used to be, I'm willing to show more personality with random people than when I was still "married." For example I chatted with a woman for 15 minutes at the day care the other day, that would never have happened before most likely. Like I said I have no interest in dating at the moment, but it's good, I can use the practice.