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Posted By: Artemis1 Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 05:16 PM
Going to like the first thread as soon as I can figure it out. Doing all this on a phone isn't very easy. So hopefully I'll get that linked soon.

First thing I have to say is there is no way for him or me to move out unless D happens, period. There is no exception here. I'm sorry for having to be so direct but I keep saying this and it keeps being brought up. I'm not trying to be mean. My H and I live with his dad, his dad is a truck driver so hes only home a few days a month, if his dad knew anything about us separating theres a very good chance he would kick my son and I out, period. My mother home is packed with my brothers and kids, there is no room. I do not make enough to get an apartment at the moment. My H and I will not tell his Father about any of this unless my son and I have a place to go as to not be kicked out, so we both have to stay in the home. I hope this makes the situation more clear so people stop saying to kick him out, its just not possible.

I understand the distancing and focusing on my life. I appreciate everyone saying these things, to be clear, that is what I am doing, My post about last night wasn't me saying I wasn't. I was merely trying to put more of what was happening in my situation out there so everyone has the whole rounded picture.

I'm going to try to figure out linking now
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 05:19 PM
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2921042

Old thread
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 05:26 PM
Artemis,

I didn't say anything about kicking him out. I said try to get him out of the house. In house separation is very difficult when a spouse is in an active affair.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 05:56 PM
It wasnt just you, alot of people keep bringing it up. Its why I explained the situation as it can't happen. And I'm sure it can be very problematic. He isn't having an active affair at the moment. But either way theres not alot we can do with our situation. Every day, I'm cutting off more and more of our communication and we both work alot so we dont see eachother much. In a week we will be on opposite shifts for 2 months so we shouldnt see eachother at all at home unless we happen to have a day off together which I'll deal with when that comes up. smile
Posted By: may22 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 06:37 PM
Hi Artemis,

It sounds like you're on the right track. This is all hard, hard work. I thought you handled that difficult situation well and validated and listened without getting svcked in. He's confused and you can't let his mental state and whiplashing back and forth affect you. You're focusing on you and your son and all of that which is terrific. Keep up the good work! It gets easier-- as LH and others have said, fake it til you make it.

It sounds like you'd want to stay in the house and it is good that you'll have some space coming up for a couple of months which will make that all a lot easier. My recommendation here would be to figure out what happens if you do end up going down the path to D in terms of housing, etc? The more you can plan for any contingency, the more prepared you'll be. I found that speaking to a couple of attorneys really helped take the fear away from S and D. Know your rights and how to protect yourself and your son.

Finally... and this one is tough... I really, really think you need to prepare yourself for the potential that your H is having an active affair. I know you don't think so. Most of us didn't. In my situation, I showed up here after finding out my H (who had been acting distant and angry for the past year and a half) was in a long-distance EA. (And before that, I'd asked if there was someone else multiple times and was totally gaslit for even asking, so I was dumbfounded when he told me about her.) He said it was like a small crush and they weren't in contact anymore but it caused him to question our M. They had been talking for maybe 8 months and he'd seen her in person a few times when he was in her city for work, went out to coffees and a dinner, kissed once and that was when he realized he needed to stop it. I asked him over and over if that was it, if they'd ever been in his hotel room alone. He looked me straight in the eyes and said NO. He was telling me the truth.

Over the next five months, the trickle truth slowly, SLOOOOOWLY came out. It was Steve who told me to prepare myself for it to be more than an EA. I thought, not my H. I had all these really good reasons, like the fact we'd talked on the phone before he went to sleep in his hotel room and I couldn't imagine him doing that with her there, and if he was in an A than why would he waste the opportunity to spend the night with her? But because Steve and others warned me to be prepared, I was (as much as one can be).... so five months later when we were having the discussion about us separating, I finally said to him Hey H, just know if you F her, we're done... and he said, May, I've been F-ing her for two years. Yup.

So..... I've been there. So many of us here have been there. I know you don't want to think about it, but I strongly recommend thinking about it so you're prepared if you find out. And decide if you would do anything differently if that was the case.

Regarding kicking him out, moving out, all that... this is very much your call and do know that there are several of us here in piecing who did so without our cheating spouses ever moving out. It is definitely not an easy path but it is there. So just know that it is possible. You'll really need to find outlets for your GALing and frustration, sadness and anger so you can keep up a PMA when he's around. I spent a lot more time at yoga and going out with friends, or taking the kids to do something just with Mommy.

Hang in there, Artemis. I already see you growing stronger in the short time you've been posting. You're on the right path. Keep it up.

May
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 07:57 PM
I want to start by saying thank you May. Your encouraging words always make me feel stronger and like I can really get through this and be okay, with or without my H. I was hoping I did Okay with how I handled that situation and was wanting feedback on it specifically so thank you for that, I really tried hard to validate and not let my own emotions and thoughts of what to say get the better of me.

I have been looking into things, looking into lawyers so I find one that I'll trust, and trying to figure out the housing situation just in case of course has been on my mind. I know my situation with this stuff is much slower then some, but I'm not as financially set as some and I am very very busy so it takes me time to work on some of this stuff.

And I aporeciate you telling me your story. I really want it to be heard that its not that I dont believe my H would have an A right now. I am sure in his confused state he would, hes even discussed with ne his confusion in this, about a week or 2 ago he told me in a very vulnerable state, him not me, "some days its like I just feel its really important for me to see other people and then other days I think, why would I ever want to be with anyone else, I love my wife" again I'll remind that my H had never even had a GF before he met me when he was 21 and I was 24 at the time. My point being is in not thinking "oh my H wouldnt have an A, with the alien in his body right now I am sure he would, and I am preparing mentally every day for the possibility of it happening" so beleieve me when I say, its not me being hopeful or thinking he won't. He would right now, obviously I cant say 100%, I'm too logical for that, but I do believe wholeheartedly hes not having one YET... NOot because I believe anything he says, at all! But because I honestly get his work schedule, he gives them to me, and he is Always working, I have a few good friends in the department, one that is his partner and she would tell me in a second if he was talking to others etc. He works so much and he comes home I know because my son and I are home, doing our own things mind you, but home. The few days my H has had off hes went on a float trip and to a bbq, again with friends I trust to tell me completely, my friends. Anyways my point is that I know he could be having one at any moment, and I am trying my best to prepare for this possibility every day. So don't think that I believe him. Because I don't trust what he says.

I use to do yoga so I may just pick that up again. I have been working out more and the soending time with just me and my son. Thank you
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
"some days its like I just feel its really important for me to see other people and then other days I think, why would I ever want to be with anyone else, I love my wife"

So here is the million dollar statement. Any reasonable human being knows when you are married you can not date other people.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/15/21 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So here is the million dollar statement. Any reasonable human being knows when you are married you can not date other people.

I would add this is where you can implement a boundary. If you want to date other people I can't stop you but you will no longer be married to me or whatever consequence you see fit.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 11:36 AM
So after reading your reply yesterday and getting home from work I did just that with my H. I told him if he wants time to think about our M and what he wants, I understand and that's fine with me, but that if hes going to be talking to other women during this time then I am not going to be waiting for him and we can initiate talks about divorce. At first he got defensive and somehow thought I was saying something about how he only wants a D because of other women and there are other reasons (possibly was just trying to gaslight me I'm not sure as he gets confused alot with what I mean, he takes everything as me accusing him etc ) anyways so with him thinking that he got upset and originally said we can start the divorce, and tried pulling me into an argument, I told him "I'm not going to sit here and argue, I will walk away until you are ready to talk without raising your voice" (whole scenario lasted only about a minute. He took a minute and then wanted to finish our conversation. I explained my point again and even said I apologize if I hadn't been clear and worded what I was actually saying to where it was understood accurately. He then said "I won't talk to any other women while I take time to consider our M and what I want to do"

Now id like to believe him but obviously I don't. I wanted that boundary to be made clear to him as suggested. My thing now is, since I dont believe him on this and/or if I find for sure hes still talking to OWs. Since I set the Boundary and he told me he would. How should I handle the situation, should I let it be known I dont believe him about the OW or not?

Either way I am still focusing on detaching and looking into a L just in case. Etc.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Artemis1

First thing I have to say is there is no way for him or me to move out unless D happens, period. There is no exception here. I'm sorry for having to be so direct but I keep saying this and it keeps being brought up. I'm not trying to be mean. My H and I live with his dad, his dad is a truck driver so hes only home a few days a month, if his dad knew anything about us separating theres a very good chance he would kick my son and I out, period.


This sounds like a huge 180 that you can make. Being in such a precarious position is suboptimal. Where there is a will there is a way. Let's fast-forward a few months and for the sake of argument say that your husband does pursue D. Now what? If I were you my numero uno priority would be to get a plan in place of where to live post-separation/D.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
So after reading your reply yesterday and getting home from work I did just that with my H. I told him if he wants time to think about our M and what he wants, I understand and that's fine with me, but that if hes going to be talking to other women during this time then I am not going to be waiting for him and we can initiate talks about divorce. At first he got defensive and somehow thought I was saying something about how he only wants a D because of other women and there are other reasons (possibly was just trying to gaslight me I'm not sure as he gets confused alot with what I mean, he takes everything as me accusing him etc ) anyways so with him thinking that he got upset and originally said we can start the divorce, and tried pulling me into an argument, I told him "I'm not going to sit here and argue, I will walk away until you are ready to talk without raising your voice" (whole scenario lasted only about a minute. He took a minute and then wanted to finish our conversation. I explained my point again and even said I apologize if I hadn't been clear and worded what I was actually saying to where it was understood accurately. He then said "I won't talk to any other women while I take time to consider our M and what I want to do"

Now id like to believe him but obviously I don't. I wanted that boundary to be made clear to him as suggested. My thing now is, since I dont believe him on this and/or if I find for sure hes still talking to OWs. Since I set the Boundary and he told me he would. How should I handle the situation, should I let it be known I dont believe him about the OW or not?

Either way I am still focusing on detaching and looking into a L just in case. Etc.


First, believe nothing he says...and only half of what he does. His word right now means squat. "I want to work on our M." Then a minute later: "I am confused about what I want!" Come on, he doesn't even believe what he says at this point.

On boundaries: Boundaries are not about trying to control his behavior. Trying to control your WAS is a fool's game and will result in setbacks for you. Boundaries are about having a boundary, and if it is crossed YOU take action. How it looks:

Boundary: You will not tolerate your H talking to other women.
Action: If he crosses this boundary you will immediately move for separation and file for D.

Boundaries are not asking them NOT to do something. As in "Please do not talk to other women." It is a statement: "I will not tolerate you speaking to other women." You don't have to tell him what the result of him crossing that boundary will be. It really doesn't matter if he knows what the resulting action is. He will either cross the boundary or he won't. And when he does you take the prescribed action.

Setting a boundary without consequences is weak and makes you look weak and makes the WAS feel like they can do whatever they want no matter how you feel.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 03:52 PM
I'm just going to add one thing. These miscommunication issues you're having with H are not likely being caused by different communication styles or syntax/context issues of speech. Your H is defensive. Highly defensive. Like overly defensive. He's escalating and assuming everything is an accusation not because of YOUR past behavior but because of the guilt of HIS present behavior. My H was like this in his EA when he was still in denial that it was an EA.

For reference my exH constantly accused me of cheating. Constantly. I would pander and cater to his ego at first. We went on like that for a long time and then I eventually stopped caring. "yeah, yeah yeah I'm a wh*re, out at the bars with dudes even though I had our daughter with me the whole time, sure, sure." And after that I finally gave up and just cheated. I didn't argue. I didn't get defensive. I'd just roll my eyes and walk away knowing I wasn't being treated any differently actually sleeping with someone else than I was when I was begging him to believe me.

People who get defensive and take what you say completely out of context like that are interpreting the information in an accusatory way because they have a reason to feel accused. When you don't do anything wrong and you're just tired of being accused you don't fight, because there's no point. You can't convince insecurity.

Oh and as May and Steve were saying and as you've been told, plan for the worst hope for the best. I saw my sitch in the light that I needed to plan for both roads. What I would need emotionally if we R'd and what I would financially and physically need if we D'd. That way no matter what I wouldn't feel blindsided again. There's very little to control in these kinds of situations but having a plan makes things feel a little less daunting and frankly scary.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 06:04 PM
That is my goal currently. I'm trying to figure out where we can move to. Just takes time lol
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/16/21 09:21 PM
Thats what I'm trying to do SteveLW, perhaps I didnt word what I said to him as well as I thought I did. I suppose that is always a possibility. I did make it clear I wasnt going to stay around if he did do these things. If I do find out hes talking to other women, I plan on taking further actions with our S.

Wayfarer I agree wholeheartedly with you. When my H gets angry with me or Tries to start a fight, its because he feels guilty for what he has done/is doing.

I have officially set up a meeting to talk to a Lawyer next week, at the very least to see what the process looks like and what I can expect. I have been reading alot of books and trying to be prepared in case my H does come back and truly chooses to work on our M so that I can be more prepared for what our new M may need etc. I'm always looking into places and figuring out all the things I'll need to do it we do end up getting a D. So I am trying to prepare for the worst but still hoping for the best. It has been a test alot lately for me but I am still here.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 02:48 PM
So I need some advice, so knowing my H is lying to be has been hard, I'm a very honest person and its not knowing that kills me. Anyways I did not so great stuff, in the beginning I had access to some of his stuff like email etc. And I spied.... I know thats bad, and I'm really not proud of it, nor do I like myself for it. But anyways I did stop snooping on them but never got rid of them, then apparently something my H had got deleted, it wasn't me but he accused me of it. I told him how I had still had access to some of his stuff and he basically told me "thats why he wants a divorce" it's completely irrelevant that Hes the one lying though he still swears he hasnt talked to anyone for like 2 weeks, which of course isnt true. Anyways the point is I told him the truth that I had technically had access to some things, I hadnt snooped for a good while but he doesnt believe me. I told him I was going to delete all the stuff for it off my phone so I dont have access. Of course he doesnt believe me and I even told him he is welcome to look through my phone when he gets home as I have nothing to hide.

I hate lies more then anything so being called one I really dont handle well but I just really want this thing to at least be believed. I'm sure with my Hs lies hes going to accuse me no matter what. I just feel like this coming out now has just really damaged everything. All the DBing ive been doing and this feels like I major setback.

Any advice on anything I could or should do here would be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: JosephS Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 03:02 PM
Sounds to me like heís just using that as an opportunity to put the blame on you and absolve himself of any guilt and justify his bad behavior. Iíd bet heís also mad that itís going to be difficult to continue to lie when you have proof of those lies. It also sounds like heís going to use this opportunity to manipulate you into deleting your evidence.

My advice is to do literally nothing. Donít bring it up. Donít bother defending yourself. Itíll be an exercise in futility. If he crosses a boundary youíve set than take action. If he starts or continues to belittle you or cause an argument and continue to blame you walk away.

Just my 2 cents
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 04:20 PM
Artemis,

This is all textbook WAS BS they spin to ease their guilt. Just so you know itís ok to snoop if you are trying to verify whether your husband is cheating or not. When it doesnít become helpful is when you have confirmation and continue to snoop. He will continue to Gaslight you if you let him so itís probably best to drop the subject.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 05:35 PM
Thank you both so much. I know he is 100% trying to say this is why he wants a divorce just because of the guilt he feels. He is definitely trying to make me the bad guy so he doesn't feel so shitty for what hes doing. Thank you for confirming that, its good to have other who agree and validate my thoughts in it.

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to live by that now, I'm not going to mention it ever again and if he brings it up I will walk away (I'll gave to go back and reread some of the quotes people have posted on here of what to say before walking away from an argument)

And thank you LH19 I went ahead and deleted his email stuff from my phone. Mainly because for one yes I know hes cheating and all its doing to me is hurting me and making ne want to confront him which isnt helping me to move on and foxus on me. It's too tempting to focus on him with it so I did it. However I still have wvidence of him cheating and I am keeping it locked away, I dont want to ever use it or do it. But my H has alot of power still and I am keeping it just in case I need to use it. (He is military and all) anyways thank you both.

When this situation happened my H said "This is why I want a D, this will never stop, I dont even want to talk to you" that was about 3 hours ago. He has since texted me about a job offer he got and sent me a tiktok video of owls (which are my favorite animal) I have not replied to either if them
Posted By: may22 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 05:40 PM
Hi A,

Agree with LH and Joseph. Don't worry about it. He will use any thread he can grab onto to point the finger and say see? THAT is why I have to leave and it isn't my fault, it's yours. This is honestly a script they all follow. i have to say it really helped me in my sitch when I realized this and saw the exact same words that were coming out of my H's mouth written down here in situation after situation. It's almost funny.

There's nothing you can do but focus on yourself and keep on doing what you were doing. Keep your head high and stay the course. Don't engage with him on it anymore either-- it's done. I don't think this is a major setback. Go do something fun for you and your son and stop thinking about him. Or, another thing that helped me in my sitch was thinking about all the positive parts of being on my own as opposed to the negative ones which were already occupying my mind (my kids being the biggest for me). In my situation, I was determined to stay in the house, so I started thinking about how I'd redecorate, take over the office, get rid of all his $hit, etc. And some things I just started doing anyway, like buying all new sheets/comforter for my bed. So... maybe spend some time cruising craigslist for apartments and see if there is something you like? Going through these exercises will help take the fear out of the unknown and help remind you that you'll be fine no matter what happens.

Keep up the great work, Artemis.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/17/21 07:40 PM
Thanks May22. Honestly having you and so many others say this stuff helps so much. Sometimes I really feel like I'm really screwing up and start to feel like its all my fault and when I read posts on here I'm reminded that even though ive caused issues in our M for sure, my H is responsible for his own actions and he really is just trying to make me the bad guy to make himself feel better about his actions. I really needed this, Ive been getting to the place lately of wandering if its all worth it, just getting to the hard part and trying to be smart but keep hope.

I will try to start looking into some of these things. I wish we had our own home already, I know if we did id get to keep it and he'd find something else, then I could work on the home to keep preoccupied. Exercising has been a big help for me so far, I still struggle to get up and do things some days still but I'm pushing through. Thanks for the encouragement
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 01:14 AM
Well I came home, probably an hour after my H thought I'd be home, he seemed fine. But after a minute asked where our son was, I told him he was with my mom because I'm working a long shift tomorrow and he immediately got upset and started to raise his voice saying great now hes going to have bad habits again. (My mom doesn't do all the rules we like her to with our son, he gets away with more over there so my H always has issues with it, but obviously I'm not going to keep him from his family) anyways he gets bad habits from my H's mither as well. Such as never being off her tablet when hes there. I tried to point this out and my H just said well I only notice issues after your family.... Obviously I was pissed but I just said "Listen I don't want to be pulled into a fight, in going to walk away and if you want to we can discuss this civilly or drop it for tonight" My H got really mad then and said between "I wasnt being irrate I was trying to talk to you, or you just try to say all these logical things but it diesnt make it the truth (not sure what that means) and I attenpted again my saying "I would like to not argue may we please stop this" he said okay and then underhis breath said "this is why we are getting a D" at this point I told him "that was inappropriate. Anyways to leave it all to its end, he got up and starting packing his work clothes for the next day without saying a word. I didnt know as I didnt follow him but had to go upstairs to put some stuff up and saw so I asked him "are you staying somehwere else tonight" and he said yes hes going to his mom's. And he got in his car and left.

I dont sleep well other places but I'm considering going to a friends tonight as staying In our rather big empty house with the negative energy in it feels suffocating a bit at the moment.

Anyways I wasnt prepared for that very confusing blow up, I think I handled at least some of it well but if theres anything else I could have handled differently or better, I am all ears smile

Also I am surprisingly calm right now, I dont believe if I had found DR or this website and all of you I would be. I'd be in tears and anxiety ridden and I feel strangely okay, not that it doesnt hurt still it does but I'm not torn apart by it.
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 01:23 AM
This is all very predictable.

Heís creating arguments so he can storm off and either stay with the other woman. Or stay at his moms and communicate with her.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 02:09 AM
Thornton nailed it. WSs in particular will invent reasons to be obstinate. If you go left they'll say you should go right. Go right and they'll say you should go left. Either it is to run to the OP, or to justify the D, or just so they can be mad at the world.

Good job not taking it personally. This, believe it or not, had less to do with you than you think it does.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 02:55 AM
He did go to his moms, she called me and told me, we are on good twems most the time thanks to her watching my son. Even though she is toxic in alot of other ways. Anyways I had to drive over there to give her babysitting money and my H was there, and he had just told her we had an argument and he had a really bad day at work and we just needed a night apart. I was very surprised he told her this and didn't tell her specifics with our situation. He was calmer and we talked for a minute about thw argument and left things better. I didnt engage him first or for more then about 2 minutes before I told him goodbye and left to stay at a friends.

I definitely say its for him to justify the D. And to try to take blame for his actions and put them on me. It feels like he is constantly trying find something to blame on me for the D.

And thank you, I'm surprised at how calm I still feel thats for sure. I'm very thankful gor everyone here helping me get to this point.

Also that last sentence about it not not having so much to do with me etc... I needed to hear that, I just read it and felt more relaxed and had my inner turmoil calm down. It truly helped me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:41 AM
A,

You really need to give him space right now. It is also very important that you are mysterious right now and he should have to wonder where you stand. The longer he goes knowing he has a soft place to land if his A goes sideways the longer he will jerk you around.

Seriously you have to pay his mother to spend time with your son? Why couldnít he just pay her?
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:07 AM
Not sure if you saw it before, but I highly recommend Love Must Be Tough for your sitch Artemis
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 10:43 AM
I am getting much better about space and being mysterious. Staying at a friend's and he doesnt even know and if he asks I'm not giving him details. And she babysits him and doesn't have a job. She needs help with bills etc. My H pays car payments etc so I pay her, not even alot honestly. We split bills a certain way thats all.

And I will look into that book for sure
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 03:23 PM
Also wandering on some more specific advice on something. So with not thinking of negative thoughts people on here and in DR suggest to picture a stop sign when negative thoughts start to invade. This specific technique helps me tremendously. People say detach and don't contact them etc. And I get that but its so general. Just like saying dont thing about negative thoughts, that didnt help me hut the specific stop sign solution did. In other words I do better when I'm given specific techniques or solutions to Try.

With that said does anyone have any specific techniques or solutions they did whenever they had the urge to contact their WAS?

Ive cut contact pretty well but I still get a intense urge to reach out and I tell myself not to, but I don't always win, so if anybody has any suggestions for me, I would very much appreciate it.

Side note on my situation, after what happened last night that I told you all about. This morning my H texted me "Hey just letting you know I'm working the first few hours by myself this morning, and that ive made it to work, have a good day" that was 4 hours ago now and I havent replied. Trying to go the whole day without replying currently.
Posted By: JosephS Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 03:32 PM
Whenever I wanted to contact my EX I just found something to keep me busy. I found if I stayed busy I was good. I started cooking some of the most elaborate meals that took hours. But hey it did the trick. I got into retro gaming so that was good. I got myself a motorcycle which the ex hated and I wasnít allowed to have one in my previous life and that takes a lot of concentration and focus. I started planning trips etc. on really bad days I would try to go places that didnít have cell service. Thereís a hiking trail about 30 mins away that I could go to and spend the afternoon and that did the trick. Are there any hobbies you enjoy that your H didnít? Maybe some you stopped doing after you got married that you could get back into and there would be no memories to associate with him?
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 03:55 PM
Thanks JosephS, that's very helpful. I hiked alot but it was sort of a thing we got into together, but I think I could still get back into it without having too many memories to make it harder. Trying to find karaoke near me. I use to go every Tuesday snd then the place got rid of it, but I was much happier rhe months I did that so I'm trying to get back to it. We honestly did alot together, cooking, painting, we were always very advemterous with hobbies. So I'm trying to really try to find new hobbies.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 04:06 PM
A,

It helps to come here and type out what you want to say. Someone can usually respond right away why itís a bad idea.

Pursuit ďreaching outĒ is the number one enemy of DB.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 04:44 PM
It really does. Its why I came on here and asked about it. I really wanted to reply back to his message and I almost did, but I know I need to not reoly at all if not just take a long time to. So I came on here and asked for strategies instead. I'm at work so even when I get the urge today ive decided I will get out DR and read at least one page out of it instead of replying to him
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
It really does. Its why I came on here and asked about it. I really wanted to reply back to his message and I almost did, but I know I need to not reoly at all if not just take a long time to. So I came on here and asked for strategies instead. I'm at work so even when I get the urge today ive decided I will get out DR and read at least one page out of it instead of replying to him


Here are how you should be dealing with his messages:

Do not respond to messages that are informational. Only respond to direct questions. But then do it in your own time (not right away). And in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.

You cannot be mysterious by being at his beck and call.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:24 PM
Thank you for that response. And OMG guys its working. I replied back to my H just saying "Thanks for letting me know" and he sent another message and I havent responded for about 2 hours, firat was 7. And my H just sent me "I miss you" he hasnt said that to me since this whole thing started about 2 months ago!

Help me please! I dont know how I should respond, I dont want to screw it up. Obviously I'm excited by this but I dont want to be overly excited to him and I'm not sure how I should respond to this so advice please! Also side note we should both be home in about 5 hours as I need to go home and I know he will be there in case rhats relevant
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:35 PM
Ok. ď I miss you. Means nothing other then heís having separation anxiety.

You donít respond at all.

If he is on the fence itís very crucial you donít cave. As soon as you give him what heís looking for he will run in the other direction.

Stay strong you are doing well!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:36 PM
Donít be there when he gets home.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:39 PM
On a side note I like to kick your husband in the nuts lol. Heís acting like another name for a cat.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:50 PM
I can stay out a bit later tonight but I have to be home lile an hour after hed get there because I work at 4am tomorrow and need stuff so I'm sure he will bring it up when I'm there so I'm not sure how to respond to him when that happens.

And okay I'm not going to reply to his message at least. Thats what I'm trying to learn about. And trust me I want to kick him in the nuts as well with this whole process lol
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 07:59 PM
LH is right. Donít respond.

He just wants to keep you firmly in place as plan B, itís manipulation.

One minute he wants a divorce so you back off, and now he misses you? Nope not good enough.

If you want him back, AND loyal, you will basically have to have him begging you for another chance. Anything less than that, and he will repeat his behavior as soon as you start to cave.

Trust in the process. Do not cave.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis
I'm sure he will bring it up when I'm there so I'm not sure how to respond to him when that happens.

Listen and validate? Are there any particular lines you're worried about responding to?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:10 PM
If he asks you about the I miss you text. Just say ď oh I assumed it was meant for someone else and you texted me by mistake. Iím going outĒ.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:28 PM
I'm going to go to the validation thread right after I Type this to try to see something that might help me with my response. I just feel hes going to ask me why I didnt reply, I could see him asking if I miss him as well, I could even see him saying something about working on things (not for sure but its possible) and I know he wouldnt mean it right now, that hes just having separation anxiety and withdrawals of having me there for him
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:35 PM
Validation wonít help you with that direct question.

If you feel you need to answer be honest. ďThe way your acting now, no I donít miss youĒ. Then go out.
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:43 PM
Women who donít put up with cheating are sexy because they exhibit strength and confidence.

Women who are easily manipulated by a cheater lose the respect of the cheater and in turn, their attractiveness.

Thereís nothing for you to validate. Yesterday he wanted a divorce, remember?
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by lh19
Just say ď oh I assumed it was meant for someone else and you texted me by mistake.Ē.


Active listening and validation provide easy replies to his statements. "I miss you" is expressing a feeling. I don't see acknowledging feelings as a weakness. Direct questions are different.

Originally Posted by Imaginary Dialogue

Him> I miss you
You> I hear you. | You do sound upset.
...
Him> I want to work on things.
You> What things do you want to work on?

Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 08:53 PM
Definitely do not tell him you miss him.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Women who donít put up with cheating are sexy because they exhibit strength and confidence.

Women who are easily manipulated by a cheater lose the respect of the cheater and in turn, their attractiveness.



Couldn't agree more
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/18/21 09:49 PM
Thank you all, I know I ask questions with these situations alot, I just want to handle everything correctly, and you all and your advice helps me SO much, so thank you! I'm going to do my best to put your advice into play when I have to see him later, if he brings it up, and only if he does.
Posted By: may22 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 05:28 AM
Hi A,

Just want to give a slightly different opinion for you to take or leave. I don't agree that the only way back is to wait until your H is begging for another chance.

I don't think you should say you assumed it was for someone else. If he asks you directly I might say I was confused and didn't really want to talk about that. And AVOID an R talk then-- walk away, go do something else. Stay super busy around him so that it makes it harder for him to try to corner you into an R talk.

Remember he IS confused and spinning and he may not be a sociopath purposefully plotting to keep you hooked, but this behavior is basically temp checking and making sure you're still available to him. It really does you zero good at this point to reinforce him-- you'll only set yourself back. If you really feel you must respond, I'd consider just typing "ok" or a thumbs up emoji. A neutral response so he can't say you were rude for not responding, but not giving him any inkling what is going on in your head either.

My H used to say all kinds of $hit when we were in limbo, I was his best friend, we had to make this decision together, he wasn't sure he could do it (leave to go ride off into the sunset with AP), he was going to miss me, blah blah blah. I would say... I'm sure you do. I'm sure you will. I don't know what to say to that. (well I wanted to say you're being a total dumba$$, which I did say sometimes but tried to restrain myself). Not really validating. I was very matter of fact. I wasn't going to give him the satisfaction of agreeing with him on this one. If he wanted to leave, he had to do it himself like a big boy. I wasn't going to hold his hand through it, and I sure wasn't going to be his friend afterwards. I focused on my kids, exercise, friends, and did my very best to plan for a great future that didn't include him.

I think you're doing really well, Artemis. Keep it up. DO NOT WAVER-- I think it is pretty likely that he'll keep swinging back and forth for awhile, going from the "you're so awful I can't be married to you" to "I miss you and and I want to work on our M". Just keep trucking along and doing your thing. Let his crazy wash over you. You got this.

M

PS Re the affair... he may not be having a PA but he could be in an online emotional affair.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 02:36 PM
My H only twice in limbo said he missed me. The first time was unfortunately to my face, so there wasn't much I could avoid. I'm hot headed, which doesn't seem to be your style so I said "That's unfortunate for you, but I miss someone who doesn't effing exist." And then I walked away.

I agree with May with the neutral responses. OK or thumbs up always annoyed the h3ll out of my H when we were in this phase. A lack of reaction literally annoyed him.

I don't know that I really believe in the A and B plan concept. But I do think WAS/WS are spending limbo weighing and measuring the LBS in comparison to either and AP or simply a single life. A non-reaction like OK, does not conform with their idea of what they assumed you're reaction would be. They usually expect the LBS to run to pick the crumbs they're dropping. Occasionally when you have partner like me they expect an explosion or the crumb catching.

Honestly if your H asks about the text I wouldn't lie. It's not worth you're time putting him a hook when he already has you one one. If you're asked directly let him know you saw it, but you have no reason to believe it, and you simply don't have it in you to keep playing this game with him.

He can't have things both ways ad infinitum. There has to be a point at which you won't be willing to play the I love you I hate you game any more. H knows this.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 02:47 PM
There is a show on Netflix called Firefly lane. The lead girl's mother is having an affair and it's quite obvious. The father approaches on the porch and calmly says "I know what you are up to. You can't have both. You need to make a decision" then walked away. VERY POWERFUL.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by may22
I don't agree that the only way back is to wait until your H is begging for another chance.

I love that May said this. "Begging for another chance" encapsulates the truth that there should be more motivation from the WAS or WWS to R/Piece than a momentary whim or regret, or things not working out with OM/OW. We've seen many unsuccessful attempts at R in these cases where the LBS was afraid to set any terms. If we waited for actual begging, though, some Rs here would never have taken place!
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 05:57 PM
May22 I Appreciate your oppinion on my Situation, one thing i have noticed on here is that even though most advice is universal, there are sometimes that there are 2 oppinions and you really have to go with what is best for your situation and no one can know butyou. I agree with you on the him not having to be begging persay, I know my H and though he may eventually truly want to come back etc. hes not the excessivley begging type.

When I got home it wasnt brought up for a good while, I Had went running and cam;e home to take a shower and didnt talk to him much or be around him, other then him asking about my day in which i answered and asked him how his was, as any Neighbor/roomate would (IM trying hard to get in these mindsets). Anyways he did end up asking about it and I said I was busy for why I didnt reply and I also stated i thought it was meant for someone else, he said "of course not, theres no one else id say that too and I just really missed you, how when i didnt respond he said "as a friend" and I said "I dont believe its just as a friend but thanks for being open with me about it" And I know I shouldnt have made that comment it just sort of came out and i instantly regretted it. I did tell him that " I don't miss you not with who you have become lately" He just said he understood and that was that.

And I appreciate your comment of him not being a sociopath etc. My H has been a complete jerk at times and punching him and telling him hes a dumba** is tempting at times, but he is confused and im sure he does miss me and i plan on keeping it that way. Im not going to waiver, or im going to try my best not to. Still trying to get out more and find new hobbies. And I really am trying to do things right, thanks for your support.

Wayfarer first off I want to say things like that to my H, all the time. But I am a very calm person for the most part which Im hoping will make the DB easier to a degree lol

Not sure if I should have responded differently with My H or not and been more neutral. However I could tell that when I didnt tell him I missed him too he was definitley thrown by it with him reaction. He definitley thought Id tell him how much I missed him too.

One other question Ive been struggling with. What is everyones oppinions on wearing my wedding ring? For me Im still married either way so I want to wear it, its not like not wearing it makes me unmarried. But Since Im suppose to be showing My H that Im moving on and not waiting for him and that Im moving on without him if I Have to etc. would it be more beneficial for me to not wear it so he notices I'm not wearing it (which he will) and show him Im moving on if need be and all.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by may22
I don't agree that the only way back is to wait until your H is begging for another chance.

I love that May said this. "Begging for another chance" encapsulates the truth that there should be more motivation from the WAS or WWS to R/Piece than a momentary whim or regret, or things not working out with OM/OW. We've seen many unsuccessful attempts at R in these cases where the LBS was afraid to set any terms. If we waited for actual begging, though, some Rs here would never have taken place!


Maybe the original quote that May sites is a little too strong. But certainly, any half-hearted attempts to R is not going to work. The LBS should have very clear requirements for the WAS to return. And if the WAS is serious about R they will readily agree to those requirements. We've seen it and said it before, when the WAS is ready to R they will be willing to move mountains to do so.

"I want to R, BUT........" is rarely ever a true R.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:01 PM
Also Firefly Lane is an AMAZING show, I Love it and totally get it and agree.

And I agree on the not having to beg
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1

One other question Ive been struggling with. What is everyones oppinions on wearing my wedding ring? For me Im still married either way so I want to wear it, its not like not wearing it makes me unmarried. But Since Im suppose to be showing My H that Im moving on and not waiting for him and that Im moving on without him if I Have to etc. would it be more beneficial for me to not wear it so he notices I'm not wearing it (which he will) and show him Im moving on if need be and all.


I am in the "you wear it until you are no longer married" camp.

You aren't supposed to be "showing your H" that you are moving on. That is manipulation. You are supposed to move forward with your life, he will either take note or he won't. When you start doing things to "show" him you are doing them for the wrong reasons. WASs can sniff that kind of thing out like a bloodhound.

So if your principles tell you that you should wear your wedding ring, then keep wearing it. Forget about showing him anything.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Steve
You aren't supposed to be "showing your H" that you are moving on. That is manipulation. You are supposed to move forward with your life, he will either take note or he won't. So if your principles tell you that you should wear your wedding ring, then keep wearing it.

^^^^
It's simple, sometimes. (:
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:35 PM
Regarding my "begging" comment, ok maybe that was too strong of a word.

What you will notice if you comb through these threads (mine included), if the LBS has not made the WAS work (and by work, I mean over a sustained period of time) to prove their sincerity in the desire to reconcile, one of two things will happen.

1. You will reconcile and there will be another BD after the honeymoon phase.
2. The WAS will drag things out, be uncommitted (even though they say they are), and buy more time to continue their affair or their desire to explore other options.

Someone mentioned the book Love Must Be Tough by Dobson. I highly recommend that book in this situation.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:37 PM
Thanks. And I didnt so much mean to not wear it for that purpose. I guess I worded that incorrectly. Its mire that I was worried that if he saw me wearing it all the time hed constantly think I will be here no matter what, his plan B as everyone constantly says. But I am definitely going to wear it thanks for the advice
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Regarding my "begging" comment, ok maybe that was too strong of a word.

What you will notice if you comb through these threads (mine included), if the LBS has not made the WAS work (and by work, I mean over a sustained period of time) to prove their sincerity in the desire to reconcile, one of two things will happen.

1. You will reconcile and there will be another BD after the honeymoon phase.
2. The WAS will drag things out, be uncommitted (even though they say they are), and buy more time to continue their affair or their desire to explore other options.

Someone mentioned the book Love Must Be Tough by Dobson. I highly recommend that book in this situation.




When the WAS is ready to R often times they will beg. Usually it is because the LBS has moved forward and isn't willing to give them another chance.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
Thanks. And I didnt so much mean to not wear it for that purpose. I guess I worded that incorrectly. Its mire that I was worried that if he saw me wearing it all the time hed constantly think I will be here no matter what, his plan B as everyone constantly says. But I am definitely going to wear it thanks for the advice


Wearing your ring is like saying words. Without action to back that up they are meaningless. When you are out GAL, working on yourself, and lovingly detached, wearing your ring is not going to send the opposite message.
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 06:54 PM
Just remember one thing, Artemis.

Your goal isn't to get your H back.

Your goal is to get him back, committed and loyal, forever.

And in my opinion, the only way to do that is to put the fear of God in him that he was within an inch of losing you forever due to his cheating and lying ways.

I'm not advocating being a jerk to him. I am advocating that you have enough self respect to accept nothing less than full transparency, loyalty, and a commitment to you and your son.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 07:02 PM
My opinion on the ring thing is it's a personal choice. Steve has a point ceremoniously removing it has a manipulation aspect to it, but so does leaving it on. It's just the flip side, I'm married whether you want to be or not.

I honestly think you do what feels right to you.

I took mine off the second H wouldn't admit to the EA. I didn't want to be in a MR where he could lie to my face or that he'd rather call me crazy and insecure than admit he was doing something detrimental to our MR because he didn't want to have to give it up. I didn't make a big show of it. I just stopped. I felt like if he wants to act like he isn't married I have no real obligation to act like I'm devoutly and happily married out in the world. I wouldn't put mine back on until H showed a dedication to wearing his during Recon. I'm also mildly crazy so when he stopped wearing his ring I took it and put it away with mine. It "mysteriously" reappeared on his dresser when he decided to move back in to the MBR months after I had taken it.

It's something you have to decide. I just wouldn't make a big deal about it either way though. If you decide to not wear it don't tell him you're taking it off or why. If you decided to keep it on and he asks about it keep it simple, shrug and let him know you're legally still married. The end. No flourish.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Your goal is to get him back, committed and loyal, forever.

My goal post for R would be committed and loyal for the foreseeable future.

Thornton, I think you and I both wanted an enduring love and went through multiple R attempts. My final R attempt may have been a fail, but I don't regret it. I felt some closure each of us trying our best for a year to see if we could overcome baggage around the breakup, and then address underlying issues. We went to and practiced therapy. We solved some issues. We weren't looking at other options. We had many good moments that year. I can sleep at night knowing that she and I, deep down, are now incompatible despite both of us earnestly wishing that we could work out as a couple because we love each other. (:

I regret one of my earlier R attempts, where she momentarily wanted to make changes, but then dropped the notion within a week. I definitely made my share of mistakes in this process.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 07:35 PM
@Thornton, I just re-read about your 3rd breakup--crazy, so sudden! I get our different situations (ongoing issues vs. a sudden disappearance) could lead to us having different goalposts for reconciliation. When I left my XW, and when my XGF left me, the change was swift, but the issues were well-known. In your case, you had months of good karma built-up and future plans--then POOF over a couple of arguments.
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 07:51 PM
Hey CW,

I agree we may have different goal posts.

For me, marriage is a life long commitment. And if/when I take those vows again, I will mean it when I say "til death do us part". I don't think I would sign up to get married if our vows said "for the next 8 years or until you decide there's greener grass on the other side of the fence".

To each their own! :-)
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
For me, marriage is a life long commitment.

I was speaking about our minimum bars for reconciliation/piecing. I want a lifelong partner, too! Fingers crossed for both of us to find success in that realm when we're ready. (:
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 08:12 PM
Gotcha smile

I wish you nothing but success, my friend!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 08:55 PM
So catching up.

So I agree with May that the WW does not have to beg the LBS for another chance but they do have to see the WW as a person of value, life with them is better then life alone or with someone else and they need to work to get them back. Without this he will likely walk again down the road.

I also agree that the WW does not have to be a sociopath. If the WW is not a sociopath then they typically have a lot of resentment built up and the affair is an act of anger. So if your husband is having affairs due to resentment then it is going to take a really long time to burn through it. Are you 180ing the areas that made him resentful?

I will also give you my opinion that your husband is not confused heís scared. He wants to date other women but heís afraid of the consequences if it doesnít work out for him. Donít confuse confused with fear.

Still think if you DB your butt off you have a chance. Heís got one foot out the door not two.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 09:45 PM
Again, until he feels like he has lost you and has made the worst mistake of his life, you are going to have to DB your a$$ off. He has to feel true remorse.


Your ring is a symbol to other men that you are taken. Some men will respect that. Others will see it as a challenge. Do you want other men giving you attention during this?


Whenever you have the urge to argue or state your point of view, STOP and validate his FEELINGS. Get this skill down NOW.


Memorize this line:
"The LAST thing I need in my life now is ANOTHER man."

He is going to project his behavior on you. When he accuses you of cheating, you look him dead in the eyes and say that (emphasize the two words in bold). Then walk away.


GAL like a mad woman. Every chance you get, look your best, be gone and doing something fun and exciting. Do not share any details of you life with your husband. Deflection is your friend.



Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/19/21 10:00 PM

I'm going out.
I'm not sure.
With friends.
You don't know them.
I haven't decided.


"You sound upset. Is that how you feel?"
"I am sorry you feel that way"
"I understand you feel that way."
"It must be hard to feel that way"
"I agree. This is not working for me either"
"I believe it is best if ......"
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 12:12 PM
Okay so I apologize for taking so long to reply, last 2 days have been crazy and I am just now having some time to get on here to reply.

First I'll explain Yesterday, My H and I had a day together of swimming with friends. We had friends who live out of state and were in town for only a week come in and we had planned this outing for a few months. Even with everything going on we had decided to do it anyways as we Never get to see these friends. Honestly trip wasn't terrible but wasn't great either. We ended up locking keys in our car and had to get a tow person to come unlock it for us and while swimming we both felt a little odd as we didn't know how to act around eachother exactly pretty much. On the way home my H said how he just hadn't enjoyed spending time with me today, a bit later he did come to the conclusion it was more about the confusion with how to be around eachother and also the Key stuff really got to him. (He tends to let setbacks ruin his whole day alot) He wanted to talk so he started telling me some of the stuff that he doesn't like about me, and not as negatively as it sounds I swear. Even said multiple times he wasn't trying to hurt me just that he was trying to be honest about it. I sat in the car and listened, once he was done i took some time before i replied. The things he said he didn't like were all things that since reading DR I have been working on because they aren't who I am. Circumstances and insecurities over time have given me some toxic behaviors in which I have been working to change since GAL and working on myself. I told my H that I know I can't tell him I'm changing because the fact is unless you can truly see it over time, people just can't believe people change behaviors that have been exhibited for a long time just by them saying they will or are. I told him that over the last few months I have however taken a long hard look at myself and have realized things I dont like. And that I have chosen to work on myself to become the person I want to be. We discussed these issues in more detail and realized that when we had first gotten together what drew my H to be was my Independence and my active personality, etc, a lot had changed over time and I want to go back to that, except better and more grown of course.

Example of an issue, Sometimes I'll say something like "Man I'm amazing" and my H will tease "your okay" joking around and I will bug him until he says I'm Amazing. I always thought this was just me playing around with him. My H saw it differently he told me that he felt manipulated in these times, because this would happen then some days we would have an argument and I'd throw it in his face "well earlier you told me I was amazing so were you just lying" and he felt like I always did this just so I could have a weapon to throw at him earlier. Honestly I NEVER ever realized I did this, but when he told me about it, I sat there and thought about it, and after about 3 minutes I told my H "I'm so sorry that I ever did that to you, I never intended to do that or manipulate you but I did, and Im sorry" Because thinking back, I did do that, ALOT honestly. When I said this, My H was in shock, after a minute he said "Usually you are so defensive when I say this kind of thing to you and just get angry with me, I really appreciate that you really listened to what I had to say and that you apologized for it"

We talked about many things like this the hour car drive home, neither of us after degraded the other or raised our voices. Honestly it was the most calm, adult, mindful talk I believe we have had in probably a year at least, with no one ever getting mad or defensive. About an hour after we got home, I was making dinner and my H came up to me and hugged me then told me "Love, I haven't been talking to anybody else for a little over a week now, I would like to start putting our marriage back together" I was in shock, I can't remember my exact words but the gist of what I said was that I knew it took courage to say that and I know he's scared, because I was too. I told him how he had said this before and took it back minutes later, so I asked him to give a few days for him AND myself some time to think about it, because I wanted to make sure we were both sure and if we BOTH still felt this way in a few days then we can start talking about where we go from there and how we can start working on our M. He told me "I am completely sure that I want to work on this, but I will give you these days so we can both think about it, I Love you" I thanked him and that was that.

I don't want to put too much stock into this or get comfortable in a sense, I'm still going to focus of GAL either way and I'm not going to stop working on the steps.

Side note my H also put his ring back on, with no encouragment from me to do so, and also told me the password to his phone, I told him I didn't have to have it or look through it. He insisted I sit down with him and showed me his messages etc of when he had texted his EA that he was going to work it out with me and that he wasn't going to be talking to her anymore etc.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 12:41 PM
Boy I am really going to bite my tongue here and hope Wayfarer chimes in today.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 12:53 PM
Also I want to make it clear, that I know that My H already being "truly" ready to work on things, is a low probability, which is why I am re reading everything I can about when a S may start saying this, and re reading Micheles books... also I order Love Must Be Tough and I'm waiting for it to come in. Thus why I am posting on here and asking advice on the best way to handle this Situation, I was not prepared for my H to say anything like this, this soon.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:21 PM
Remember:

Believe nothing he says, and only half of what he does. If he truly is ready to work on things he will make it known over the course of the next few weeks with no doubts.

I find it hard to believe he went from a car ride where he told you a bunch of things he doesn't like about you, to an hour later wanting to work on the marriage. Turnarounds like that are unheard of and I think you are right not to trust it.

Further, the complaint about the "I am amazing" thing. Really? He felt manipulated by that playful little game? It sounds like he has some serious self-esteem issues and I would HIGHLY...HIGHLY recommend you make IC a requirement for him in order for you to agree to work on the marriage. Remember, if he truly wants to work on the marriage he will be willing to do just about anything you ask in order to do so.
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1

I don't want to put too much stock into this or get comfortable in a sense, I'm still going to focus of GAL either way and I'm not going to stop working on the steps.


This is the smartest thing you can do right now.

Artemis, I know this is everything you have been waiting to hear from your H. I totally get it, my ex said the same thing to me every single time she came back to me. We would have a honeymoon period, affection, sex, time together etc. And she would leave and break my heart again. She did this 3x, and knew exactly what I needed to hear in order to open my heart again.

Help me understand something. You got to sit next to your cheater H on the drive home and listen as he told you all the things he doesn't like about you? Ummmm.... and you apologized?

Did you talk about all his gaslighting (which is what he was doing on this drive home btw), multiple affairs, lying and cheating ways? And did he apologize for those things and commit to working on them?

He hasn't spoken to OW in a week and now he loves you? Let me ask you something Artemis, what would you say to a friend in your exact same predicament if she told you her H said those words to her?

I know you don't like reading what I typing her Artemis, please know I'm only trying to protect you from being gutted all over again, because it is extremely likely. Like I said before, these things are very predictable.

Back to the basics, just like in the book, believe NOTHING he says. Especially a week removed from talking to OW.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:36 PM
Nothing angers me more then when a WW wants to play the dating game and then when things don't work out the way they thought just want to slide back into the marriage. Without serious work on his part he he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Nothing angers me more then when a WW wants to play the dating game and then when things don't work out the way they thought just want to slide back into the marriage. Without serious work on his part he he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.


I think Artemis is dealing with a WH. wink
Posted By: Thornton Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Nothing angers me more then when a WW wants to play the dating game and then when things don't work out the way they thought just want to slide back into the marriage.


Agreed. Probably the most cruel thing someone can do to someone they once claimed to "love".
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Originally Posted by LH19
Nothing angers me more then when a WW wants to play the dating game and then when things don't work out the way they thought just want to slide back into the marriage.


Agreed. Probably the most cruel thing someone can do to someone they once claimed to "love".

I meant to say WS.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 03:06 PM
Hi Artemis,

What will you require from him to enter piecing?

May hovered for awhile in the state between ďHeís not cheating anymore.Ē and ďHeís ready to piece.Ē The two donít always happen at the same time. She set boundariesóhe didnít get all of the benefits of having a wife and life partner until he actually was committed to piecing.

We may disagree on how tough your piecing requirements should be, but if he doesnít make any changes from what he was doing before the affairs that you can observe and measure, you are setting yourself up for a nearly certain repeat. Cheating may even be easier the next time. You doubtless have areas to work on, and I applaud that work, but his giving up and cheating on you is huge. Working through that may be hard for him, because heíll face he wronged you and it was unjustified. Heíll have to identify his internal issues and learn new ways of dealing with them.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 03:42 PM
SteveLw although I understand being on the outside your misunderstanding of the amazing statement and whatnot, I was hoping I explained it better, best I can say, is even if I hadn't meant to, I did use this as a weapon later in arguments, Im not proud of it, but I do realize I did it and I have to take responsibility for my own problems.

I do feel the car ride wasn't so much about him complaining about all thats wrong with me, as toxic behaviors I have, as well as he has, accquired over the years, in case I didn't say it, we discussed his toxic behaviors too, as well as our issue with eachothers Love languages as we are not the same on that front. I just want the whole situation to be made clear. But Yes I am still skeptical, I believe he meant what he said when he said it about our M, but thus why I wanted time to pass and I am keeping my eyes open so to speak.

Also so everyone is aware, sadly C is not an option for us, we live in a small area and have been on a waiting list at the 3 only options for C in our area for almost 2 years now, it's highly frustrating.


Thornton, Of course things are hard to hear, but just know I care more about getting a faithful H and a Happy M then being fed BS frankly from people, so always keep it real and trust me when I say I appreciate it that way.

First off this is why I have no intention of giving my H my affection and all of that again right away obviously, I have read enough here I know it would only end up in disaster, I plan on seeing for real his actions for weeks etc. before I'd get back to that point.

And yes I did apologize, for my own behaviors, yes my H did some terrible, gaslighting things to me, that doesn't make my own toxic behaviors okay. There were things I did that are NOT okay, I don't say that to minimize anything he did, let me be clear on that, but I have to take responsibility for my part in our M getting to this point as well and work on myself, not for my M but for me to be who I want to be. 2 wrongs don't make a right. And yes my H took responsibility for alot of his mistakes as well, for his talking to the OW, for his issues with anger at times and walking away, many things. As I said it was the most beneficial talk we have had in a long time. He never stopped saying he loved me, not that its relevant I'm sure but I did read him and the OW's conversation since they started talking and other then a few "babe" drops on Her part, it could have been 2 friends talking, surprisingly my H blew off anytime the OW would make flirty comments, also was complete just online, they never met up.

Again in No way defending My H at all, I just know the only way to get true advice, etc. is to make sure all the facts are shown as well as possible.

I hear you all truly, it's why I'm being so skeptical, obviously I don't believe him yet. I am not going to just go back to the way things were or show my heart and affection to my H. Thats why I am asking you all's advice, obviously I'm going to watch my H's behavior from here on out to see how he acts, until then I'm just trying to figure out how to handle this situation best

Also My H has contacted his Military Chaplain (He is in the Army NG) and has made an appointment to see his for counseling help.... Just found this out as I was typing this.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 03:47 PM
Sorry missed yours in my last Reply.... And that is what I am trying to start working on and digging through this site for some ideas on requirements I guess youd call it. Obviously this minute I don't believe we are ready for piecing, from what I have read in Piecing its not for NC, MLC, etc. so I want to be more sure of his intentions before I persay go there.

I want to make good boundaries as well, to not let him have me fully back, I don't want to take it to the point of controlling, but I will obviously have some issues with trust for awhile.

As I did say in my reply before this one, He reached out to his Chaplain with the Military to set a meeting and work more with counseling... My H has always been completely against counseling, he just isn't one to want to open up to a stranger, so this was a big step on his part.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 03:49 PM
Boundaries and Piecing (just to start learning about it) forums are my main reading areas currently, if anyone has any specific threads that would benefit me please send them my way.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 04:36 PM
Wooooosah, I need a breath before I even begin here. Girl.....where do I start? Story time:

I just had a long talk with D18 last night about stuff that happened in the time when I was with her dad. It started as a budgeting conversation as she'd like to get her own apartment in a year or two, and then meal planning, and then how much we eat out or order in since we've had my now H in our lives vs when we were living with her dad and when we were on our own. We ended up having a long talk about how I didn't realize until years, YEARS after I had left her dad that he was financial abusive to me. That there were weeks I was expected to feed the family on less than $30. That he made 3 times as much money as I did and expected me to cover half the bills no matter what. Even when he cost us more per month than our daughter and I put together, and that included the years she was still in diapers. I knew how toxic we were for each other in the relationship. I knew how toxic I had become, but it took years of distance and healing for me to realize that my toxic behaviors were defense mechanisms, not choices. It's why 95% of the bad habits, behaviors and traits I had in that relationship I haven't had in any other relationship in my life. I became a toxic person in that relationship because my ex was mentally, financial and emotionally abusing me for years, and I'm not the kind to crumble under that kind of abuse. I'm the the kind who only gets more angry, therefore, petty, nasty, and hurtful. I also didn't notice early on because I left an abusive childhood home not long before he and I got pregnant, moved in together and had a shotgun wedding. I didn't have enough time healing from that to understand what was happening wasn't normal or healthy until it was way too late. A- when you get a chance sit and think about this story, and maybe re-read it a couple times to let it sink in.

That being said, my current H and I had several long calm talks about our MR during his A, and why we were unhappy, and what we wanted, and what the future was going to look like. But in that time, in those conversations I had enough distance to see how far afield my H was. I got to see how skewed his vision was of our relationship, of our history and of me. I was also self assured enough at the time to know, that while I wasn't perfect, there was nothing I had ever done, said, or so much as thought that was truly marriage ending, even if you added it all up. 1 because he never told me anything was wrong (quite literally, this isnt' a LBH thing, he refused to talk even when I knew things were wrong) 2 because as difficult as a partner as I can be because of my depression, my temper, my rigidity, my A type behavior, I had worked on myself long and hard and at that time I was the best version of myself yet, minus the crippling depression, that wasn't in my control. While I was willing to validate my H on things he said that I knew to be true and not said from the place of a caged animal, I was never, never willing to bend on things he said that were completely untrue. That is very anti-DB. It wasn't the right way to do things, but it was my way. My fear here is that you have neither the distance nor the emotional fortitude to stand your ground in conversations like this when your H offers you half truths.

I'm very happy that you had a calm, good conversation about things.you deserve to get some understanding of where H's head is at. I'm happy that you were both able to dig deep and not get uber defensive, but this isn't the end all be all of conversations and to say I'm disappointed that you rolled over and just took his accusations as truth is an understatement. You were doing so well. And I understand that this is very early on and all this takes time, but at a certain point here you need to understand the ground your H stands on is shaky at best. Regardless if you were a screaming, crying, insecure, indulgent, crazy pants, banshee he is in absolutely no position to point out your flaws and failings in all their glory. You shouldn't have accepted that even if you did get to say your piece.

Your H cheated on you repeatedly. I know you don't want to agree that that's a thing but he literally admitted to you he JUST stopped talking to some one a week ago. Not A WHOLE week ago. ONLY a week ago he decided to stop jeopardizing your MR. And he still thinks he's in the position to not only choose the direction of this MR but also that he's in a position to make you the W he wants you to be, while he does what exactly?

Look, I'm not saying you need to leave this guy or forget the MR entirely, but you are just allowing him to slide back and that's not a good place for you, because you've been here before, more than once. How many times can you allow things to just happen the same way over and over? How many times has he told you he only cheated because you.........? How many times has he apologized to you with a BUT immediately following? How many times has he asked to come back after you change something but he's changed nothing? I've never been a person who thing the WS needs to come back crawling on their hands and knees through glass, beating their breast professing their undying love. It doesn't work that way, even in the best of circumstance. In most cases it's a slow crawl towards kindness and care and then a fast jaunt to friendship, and truly trying, and then a paced walk/run to recon, piecing, real work and counseling. I believe very little of what's coming out of your H's mouth right now, and I'm a little scared that you say you only believe half but you believe in all of it.

Going forward here you need to know what you need from him to make sure that you feel safe and secure. What you need to say yes let's try to fix this. What steps he needs to take to show you and prove to you that he's done with all his BS and regardless of how horrible you could possibly be that he's willing to truly work on the MR. You have to stop allowing him to dictate to you what you did wrong. Of course you weren't the perfect spouse, none of us are. Of course you did things that you should work on, but if you really sit down and think about it was any of that really enough for a reasonable person to want to throw the towel in on a marriage? Probably not. You have work to do, but H only gets to dictate what that work is once he's all in. He's not all in. You need to stop eating all the blame he's feeding you. It's not yours to swallow.

Last if you guys can't get to MC there are a ton of "marriage saving" and "affair recovery" online boot camps that you guys can do together. Honestly one boot camp is typically less than the cost of 1 MC session out of pocket so it's truly worth it. There are a lot of other options out there too it's all a google search away.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 04:37 PM
PS You are no where near piecing yet, not even close. You don't need to even start reading up on that.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 05:26 PM
I'm not sure how to make it more clear that I don't believe what my H is telling me, other then that I don't. I do believe I have said this, and maybe it is getting lost in translation somewhere, I'm not really sure. I in no way believe everything from my H right now, I am merely trying to learn more of steps I can take with what is happening with my current situation.

Although I do know some behaviors I have developed over the past year have been sort of defense mechanisms. I am also aware that due to past relationships I brought many insecurities into this relationship from not dealing with resolving the issues within myself from past situations.

Also obviously I am NOT allowing him to slide back into anything, I still am unsure how this got translated into that, although I do highly despise electronics and definitley prefer face to face as so much gets lost in translation lol But I have tried to make it clear to everyone on here, I am NOT just letting him come back into my bed, or let him call and talk to me like nothing has happened, or doing things for him, or telling him I love him, or anything of the sort. I know from everyone on here, how detrimental that would, also I just am not willing to do that anyways as I have too much self respect to allow him anything which he definitley doesn't deserve right now.

I am still trying to take time to work on writing down what I would need from him to feel comfortable saying yes we can work on this. I'm at work so haven't had much time to focus on it yet, but I'm working on it. My H and I had gotten a vacation package months ago and I told him last night that I've decided I am taking it with my friends next month. So trust me that alone is a huge 180 for me So I am still doing my best to focus on GAL and not on him right now.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 05:33 PM
I didn't believe I was, someone had mentioned and I was trying to say I didn't believe I was anywhere near piecing lol
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 06:03 PM
For someone that is insisting you aren't defending him, you sure are spending a lot of time defending him.

Anyway, the reason we are harping on you making sure to understand where you still stand is that we see this all the time. A WAS says the right thing and the LBS goes full bore into accepting them back, open armed, and thinking everything is now hunky-dory.

WAS lie. All the time. If their lips are moving they are lying. You read exchanges between him and OW. Did you listen into their phone calls? I guarantee that they spoke too, and didn't just type. You have no idea the extent of their messages, and you will never know. You saw innocent exchanges.

In my first sitch in 2005, I found my W's EAP OM on her AOLIM friends list. I asked her about him. She said he was a friend from Jr. High School, and that they occasionally IM'd with each other. She didn't know I had installed key capture spyware on her PC. So the next day she started telling her EAP about how I had asked about him and wanted to know what the nature of their conservations were. And then said: "Some night, if we are both online, maybe we could have an innocent conversation so that I could show him that what I am telling him is true." In the meantime they were having torrid conversations about what they'd like to do to each other.

The point is, that if you easily found these exchanges more than likely those were the conversations he wanted you to see. No cheater, EA or PA, leaves easily found evidence when their LBS' suspicions are already elevated. Please do not be naive about the nature of his relationship with her.


Also, in the future, do not give him an out when he comes to you and says "I love you and want to work on the MR." Your response: "Okay." Then go back to what you were doing. "You've said that before and then took it back a few minutes later, so take some time to be sure" was A) short cutting the fact that he may have in fact taken it back a couple of minutes later and B) gave him an out. "She is giving me time so that when I come back in a few days and tell her I am not sure again she'll be ok with it!"

Go back and read your last few posts: He said. He said. He said. He said. He said. Where is HE DID?

Even: "Also My H has contacted his Military Chaplain (He is in the Army NG) and has made an appointment to see his for counseling help.... Just found this out as I was typing this." is all talk right now. When is his appointment? Let's see if he really goes.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 06:31 PM
It's entirely possible that I'm missing something here, but I'm not the only one interpreting what you're saying that way. I'm sorry if it seems like we're not hearing you but this is what I got out of it:

As you reiterated that conversation it seems like you patiently sat there and let your cheating husband tell you what's wrong with you. And then you walked away from that conversation knowing there are things about yourself that you want to change because you have some habits and behaviors you're not proud of. While you did mention that you also shared some of your feelings on the relationship the take away from your husband was that since he hasn't been talking to anyone in the last week he thinks he wants to work on the MR.

Either you are leaving out huge portions of what is going down between you and H or you ARE letting him just slide back in the way he had before. Even telling him you need to think about things, you need space and want to take a vacation alone, while those are steps in the right direction it's not going to help in the long run if he's using your space and time to decided if HE wants to actually work on the MR. Like Steve said, it's an out that you handed him on a silver platter.

May's husband took a very, very long road to true remorse, but he showed a commitment to the marriage and their kids while working his way to remorse. It took my H a while to stop blaming his problems in our MR solely on me even when he was remorseful for the affair. It took a lot of time, patience, gentle nudging, and some serious introspection on his part. I'm not beyond understanding that this all takes time and WS doing everything on their own pace, but your H doesn't seem to be in this camp at all. He seems to just be playing with you. And you seem like you're fine with that.

There is something very out of sorts about this interaction that you seem to just be taking in stride and it doesn't feel right to me. Your insistence that everything is fine, you have this all under control after one day trip and a long talk feels like H has done his job in calming your fears enough to get you to stop talking about it and getting you to accept the burden of the blame. Not truly lifting a finger to help you feel secure. Not truly lifting a finger to show he really wants to work.

What I'm trying to tell you is keep your eyes open. This is a calm before a storm not a step in the right direction. Don't own blame that isn't yours just because there's some shame in how you handled things. And keep in mind a saying around here. "When the WS is all in you'll know, there's no doubt or question." This is probably one of the truest colloquialisms around here. You can actually feel it and see it when it happens. The whole energy in the house, between you two, and in your own body changes. There are a lot of things you need to do that are counterintuitive to try to make yourself a better person, and to work on a relationship, but don't let go of your intuition completely it's what will save you from being blindsided again.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 06:40 PM
She constantly asked him If he would call her, and he said he had no interest in calling and talking to her. Told her at least 4 times he only wanted to be friends. Thing is All i am doing is stating the facts, it doesn't mean nothing else with anybody else was goingon. I have never said that, merely stating the facts that I do Know since i know so little for sure. That is all. Something to know about me, is I am honest to a fault, thats what all my friends, family, anyone that knows me says. I am a psychology major and I also am an empath. My teachers always told me that I could debate any side of anything that has ever happened in history. Telling points of view and the facts to everything is just part of who I am. And trust me as I have had this be an issue with many people misunderstanding my need to spout all facts from all points of view, I really do understand how it seems like I am defending him.
I've never been great at just spewing my anger especially when writing/typing, it always calms me lol
I really love that everyone on here wants to make sure I'm not being naÔve or foolish by letting him back in, it really does make me very happy to know how much complete strangers can care about me. I promise you I am not letting him back in right now, at all. Not even close to considering it yet.

And I am aware that he could end up not going, as it is said alot, its a waiting game, and patience, his apppointment has been set for next week, I am waiting to see if he goes.

I am not letting him back in our room, honestly Im not letting anything change right now at all.

I really am more trying to deteremine how anything progresses from here, after a month of him showing he wants to work on M, do I start being friendly towards him, when should I allow R talks, If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap, can I start it with him immediatley, or should I wait awhile? I just want to progress this correctly and not hold off if some things, like counseling would be beneficial to start now.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
She constantly asked him If he would call her, and he said he had no interest in calling and talking to her. Told her at least 4 times he only wanted to be friends. Thing is All i am doing is stating the facts, it doesn't mean nothing else with anybody else was goingon. I have never said that, merely stating the facts that I do Know since i know so little for sure. That is all. Something to know about me, is I am honest to a fault, thats what all my friends, family, anyone that knows me says. I am a psychology major and I also am an empath. My teachers always told me that I could debate any side of anything that has ever happened in history. Telling points of view and the facts to everything is just part of who I am. And trust me as I have had this be an issue with many people misunderstanding my need to spout all facts from all points of view, I really do understand how it seems like I am defending him.
I've never been great at just spewing my anger especially when writing/typing, it always calms me lol
I really love that everyone on here wants to make sure I'm not being naÔve or foolish by letting him back in, it really does make me very happy to know how much complete strangers can care about me. I promise you I am not letting him back in right now, at all. Not even close to considering it yet.

And I am aware that he could end up not going, as it is said alot, its a waiting game, and patience, his apppointment has been set for next week, I am waiting to see if he goes.

I am not letting him back in our room, honestly Im not letting anything change right now at all.

I really am more trying to deteremine how anything progresses from here, after a month of him showing he wants to work on M, do I start being friendly towards him, when should I allow R talks, If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap, can I start it with him immediatley, or should I wait awhile? I just want to progress this correctly and not hold off if some things, like counseling would be beneficial to start now.



My advice? Let him be the one to do the work. If he is serious about working on the M he will look for counseling to go to. Read sandi's rules, those are how you behave towards him. Friendly, engaged, happy, upbeat, fulfilled, etc. You let him set the course. If he is upbeat and happy, good. If he is sullen and withdrawn, you are upbeat and happy anyway! During our limbo I would bounce around the house, doing what I needed to do with a spring in my step, humming or whistling a tune, happy and friendly. When addressed I would give my full attention until the exchange was over, and then I would say "Okay, I need to get back to what I was doing!" in cheerful tone, then stridefully go humming and whistling on my way. If he starts a R talk, you listen and validate. Feel free to put off decisions he wants you to make. "So, should we start doing date nights?" "I'd like to think about that and get back to you." Etc.

Certainly do not be unfriendly, but remember sandi's rule about the cashier at the store.

It will come naturally, slowly and over time. No need to over think it.

As far as the rest of what you say above, I get it. Being neutral and centered is a good thing. Just remember, there is plenty of blame to go around. It isn't all his fault, and it certainly is not all your fault. In fact, he is the one that despite vows like "for better and for worse" decided to give up and pull up stakes to go elsewhere. Do not forget that. Own your trash but let him own his too.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 06:56 PM
A,

Definitely wait on counseling.

Just breathe and continue to GAL like a madwoman.

You can certainly be friendly towards him right now. Just do not pursue.

He is going to try to manipulate you so strength is a must right now.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis
If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap

When you say "we", who proposed therapy, who followed up on it, and who found the therapist?

These are not inconsequential details. I proceeded despite all the warnings not to enter MC until we were committed. In my first unsuccessful R attempt, I found the therapist after she called a couple and said nobody could see us anytime soon. I paid for therapy because it was too much, but she'd look into getting it reimbursed. Therapy consisted of her venting at me. If the therapist said I was anxious and she was avoidant, she'd repeat after the session that I was anxious. She'd ignore suggestions to bring us together, adopt suggestions taking us apart, and say it was the therapist's advice.

In my more successful R attempt "we" was "her" and in therapy, we both paid, we both got to speak, we both had homework, and we both worked on things. In fairness, it wasn't all rainbows and unicorns, and she ran out of some sessions and she vetoed some topics. At least we were both somewhat committed to working on the relationship for some period of time.

Edit: In part, we're sharing cautionary tales, because so many of us got too eager about R, lol. I love that you're taking your vacation with just you and your friends. I'm hopeful about your sitch.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 07:39 PM


Hi Art,

Most of us here are over 40. You and your H are significantly younger than us. My kids are only a few years younger than your H.

Please correct me if needed:
Art was 20 when she had a baby son who is now 7. At age 23, Art met H who was a 19 year old virgin. Art is now 27 and H is 24 raising the 7yo. They currently live in H's fathers house(who is not currently living there), sleeping in different rooms. H's mother does not work and lives in a different house. Art's Mother lives close, but the house is full so Art can't go move there. Art bought and read DR 4 weeks ago. She has been posting here for 2 weeks. Art has a meeting setup with a lawyer to understand the legal side of things.


You are going to progress down multiple parallel paths. Preparing to move out and get divorced. (Preparing for the worst). DBing your behind off (Hoping for the best).

Read Sandi's rules daily. Keep adding new skills to your behavior. Predict the next interaction and be ready to respond in an effective way.


HUGS






Posted By: may22 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/21/21 11:19 PM
First off,

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I've never been a person who thing the WS needs to come back crawling on their hands and knees through glass, beating their breast professing their undying love.

bwahahahahaha. This cracked me up. I WISH.

Here's the thing. As I see it there are two basic paths to R. The one that most folks here recommend is cutting the WS loose as soon as possible after DB. They want a D? Great, go get it. They want to ride off in the sunset with AP? Have fun. You're a horrible shrew who ruined their lives and they never really loved you anyway? Thumbs up emoji while you're off building your life back up.

Then the WS rides off into the sunset and learns that wow, things didn't all magically get better when I cut my LBS loose. The R with the AP goes south because it was all built on fantasies and lies and now you have to deal with a real relationship with another human, usually someone who is an @sshole of a person because they thought it was OK to get involved with a married person (with kids being the extra kicker for those extra-special a-holes). Slowly, the WS starts to realize that the problem wasn't in their S-- it was inside them all along. Then at some point-- maybe they hit absolute rock bottom-- they realize what a dumb@ss they are being and go back to their LBS asking (begging? wink ) for another chance. Many times the LBS has moved on at this point and doesn't want anything to do with their former lying, cheating partner. Other times they're open to R. But that is the basic path that most here will advocate.

Some of us took a different path which is uber difficult (though in fact is probably closer to how MWD talks about DBing in the book) and requires you to watch that sloooooooow transformation and realization in real life. Over many months. With no guarantees anything is going to actually work. You have to do very much the same thing in terms of DBing, focusing on yourself and detaching from your @hole spouse, even though you're still sharing a house. Planning for that amazing future that doesn't include him. Taking a good hard look at the parts of you that you might have lost during the M or behaviors you've picked up that are toxic and doing the hard work internally to make those changes. Spending oodles of time working on understanding your boundaries and how to enforce them. The difference between a boundary and attempting to control his behavior. Refocusing all that energy you're wasting on wondering what he is up to on your kids and really enjoying them. Stopping caring about what your WS is up to and just focusing on yourself, what brings you joy, what you want for your future regardless of the state of your M. This can be a lot harder with him in the house than if you are living on your own because you have very little leeway. WSs will breadcrumb like crazy and try with all their might to hook you back in. The dance of distance and pursuit is real. You just have to keep your head down and DB.

So... back to your sitch.... maybe this is real. Maybe not. No way to really know right now. I actually think it isn't a bad thing to be able to drop your defenses and acknowledge your own faults in the R-- I guess I don't see that interaction in the car quite the same way that others do. I agree with Steve about owning your own side of the road but not taking responsibility for his $hitty decisions-- that is 100% on him and he needs to own that his behavior was totally unacceptable. He doesn't seem there yet.

I don't think it is impossible for the WS to turn fairly quickly. My H has said numerous times to me that it came to him in a rush, the realization that he didn't want to D and didn't want to run off with AP only when he had the apartment and just needed to sign the lease. Nothing was standing in his way anymore (I was barely speaking to him) and all he had to do was this one last step and he couldn't. Maybe this was his rock bottom realization where he didn't need to actually experience it but could finally see the consequences of his decision. (I'll note here that I have protected him from the majority of the consequences excepting the need to work hard at our M and rebuild trust, etc. He didn't have to be the @sshole in front of all our friends, our children, our families. This was a choice I made with my eyes open.) That being said, I thought he had cut it off multiple times before that happened. And what WF and others say is true-- there is a real difference when you know they're in and it does takes time to see that and believe it. I'm now about 10 months out from that decision and I'd say it took a good six months before I really started to think, hey, this might be real this time. And I still am not fully trusting it TBH. This whole thing has taken a big toll on my ability to trust. Be ready for that, regardless of what happens with your H.

In the end, if you want to continue to stand which it sounds like you do, I'm here to support you. I (gasp) agree with LH 100% here:

Originally Posted by LH19
A,

Definitely wait on counseling.

Just breathe and continue to GAL like a madwoman.

You can certainly be friendly towards him right now. Just do not pursue.

He is going to try to manipulate you so strength is a must right now.

I'd add to this-- work on detaching. Do your very very best to stop caring what he is up to. I really liked this video on Stoicism (search youtube for "you only control how you play") that helped me just focus on that which was within my control and let go of what was not. Something I think I'll need to continue to work on for the rest of my life.

Boundaries-- from reading your words I think you, like me, may have problems with boundaries. I'd read AlisonUK's thread (or, last summer she had GOLD on my thread regarding boundaries) and really spend a lot of time focusing there.

It bears repeating: DO NOT PURSUE. Just focus on yourself, observe him and what he's up to, and give yourself a few weeks before really judging if he's turning back towards you or not. MWD talks about setting small goals which I found helpful.

I purposefully did not read any piecing threads for months. I just started a couple months ago when Steve posted some links on my thread. I would highly recommend staying away from that board because what you need to do in piecing is very different from what you need to do in the thick of your sitch and you, my dear, are still very much in the thick of it. Patience is going to be your best friend here.

Good luck!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/22/21 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Definitely wait on counseling.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
When you say "we", who proposed therapy, who followed up on it, and who found the therapist?

These are not inconsequential details. I proceeded despite all the warnings not to enter MC until we were committed. In my first unsuccessful R attempt, I found the therapist after she called a couple and said nobody could see us anytime soon. I paid for therapy because it was too much, but she'd look into getting it reimbursed. Therapy consisted of her venting at me. If the therapist said I was anxious and she was avoidant, she'd repeat after the session that I was anxious. She'd ignore suggestions to bring us together, adopt suggestions taking us apart, and say it was the therapist's advice.

At BD I assumed because my Ex-W and I didn't have any "major problems" and that counseling would easily fix the small issues we did have. However, she told me she did not have any desire to put the smallest bit of effort into working on the relationship and refused to go to counseling for months. Finally, she told me her IC gave her a referral but it'd have to wait until after COVID because she wouldn't do start any MC virtually (even though she was in IC virtually). She gave me the counselor's info and I eagerly pursued appointments thinking "we could get through this" and it would help. Finally she agreed to do Zoom calls and it took all but 3 sessions. The first she mostly complained about me and I listened and validated, the second I raised the issue of the affair which she admitted and and the counselor told us the marriage would never work if the A was active because the A is a fantasy and marriage can't compare to that, and the third session she definitively told me she wants a divorce and asked how do we tell the kids. She refused to do any "homework" exercise the MC gave us outside of the limited sessions. Keep in mind this was all before I found this forum, and read others' experiences with MC - I just assumed a counselor could help us fix any issues, and was completely wrong. Looking back I thing she wanted to "check the box" so she could tell her family and friends "we even tried counseling" and/or have the counselor help her tell me she wanted D and how to communicate with the kids.

My point is this...from the start I just assumed MC would help, but W had absolutely no interest in trying at all. I was the one reaching out to book appointments, flexing out around work, asking to try the "homework" together...whereas gave it all but 3 sessions before pulling the plug. I spoke with my sister's co-worker who went through something very similar and his Ex literally jumped out of the car when they were stopped at a light on the way to MC he was advocating. So...just be wary of MC fixing anything unless your H is 100% bought in.
Posted By: may22 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/22/21 08:15 PM
Just to add to BL and CW's points on this-- During the A, before I knew anything about it but just had had the ILYB conversation, we did MC for about six or eight months. It was a total check-the-box-on-the-way-to-divorce experience. My H was motivated to do this to be able to say he'd worked on the M and so found the MC, got it all set up, etc. We ended this because it was clear that he wasn't really interested in working on the M. He started seeing an IC on his own instead, ostensibly to work on his anger management issues (for which I bore a lot of resentment and felt was a root cause of our marital problems) but actually it was to work on his ambivalence about the A and our M.

Once he (finally) ended his A, I had MC obviously on my list of things that needed to happen eventually, but did not want to jump into it too quickly. We both did IC for about 3 months, took a six month break, and then started up MC last month. One of my mini-goals that I set but did not tell him about was that I wanted him to do the legwork on the MC. I would say it wasn't until three months ago or so that he started saying regularly that he thought MC would be a good idea on his own and let's get into it. I sat back and waited to see what would happen. We did talk about it several times (and I did say to him eventually that it would be nice if he figured it all out, since he'd done it once before when motivated to get Ded, so I was waiting to see when he had that same level of motivation to stay Med). And, it happened. But it TOOK TIME and I think it would have not been incredibly useful if we had started it before he was really ready. If I were you, I'd put the MC in the same category as piecing and simply not worry about it right now. If you get there, you'll have plenty of time to figure that out. For now, worry about you.

xx M
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/23/21 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by may22
One of my mini-goals that I set but did not tell him about was that I wanted him to do the legwork on the MC. I would say it wasn't until three months ago or so that he started saying regularly that he thought MC would be a good idea on his own and let's get into it. I sat back and waited to see what would happen. We did talk about it several times (and I did say to him eventually that it would be nice if he figured it all out, since he'd done it once before when motivated to get Ded, so I was waiting to see when he had that same level of motivation to stay Med).


Art, coming up with your private list is important. Watching his behavior is more important than listening to his words.
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/26/21 10:14 PM
Let me start by saying, sorry its taken me so long to reply, work, festivals with my son, life, lol. So i will do my best to reply to everyone.

Quick bit on the last week, Headlines anyways My H had his first meeting with the military Chaplain today in which he had planned to learn about more counseling and marriage related services, I hadn't asked for this info, he told it to me of his own accord. It should have ended awhile ago and I have not gotten ahold of my H to see how it went, he went to work right after, or was suppose to at least. Which has been very difficult for me so far but I am trying to stay strong. Also My H asked me if I'd be interested in this sort of Marriage related seminar through the Military, its called Strong Bonds, its a sort of seminar with couples on tips on communication and things such as this apparently, he has to sign up soon he said if so, I asked him how long for the deadline, he says he has to check but he believes he has about a month. I told him I am not ready to make that decision right now but I will try to let him know before the deadline if possible. My H has been thoughtful towards me in many ways and very communicative about his schedule and future plans, I have been friendly and attentive but not overly so, or pursuing on the Information... Unless necessary for our son of course.

SteveLW After typing this I'm going to go and reread Sandi's rules to help me remeber them all lol And I have been keeping up pretty well with staying upbeat and not getting pulled into Talks the last week. My H has tried a few times and I've been polite and engaged but ultimately have been able to get by without really giving answers, I guess thats the best way to say it. And trust me, I own my side of our problems because I can't move forward to be the person I want to be without acknowledging them, but I won't tell him I am committed to working on everything until he can own up to what he has done (not all the behaviors in our M as I know that will probably take more time and help, but the last few months for sure).

LH19 I have been GALing my butt off as suggested, had a great time going to a fair and concert with a good friend and another day with my son smile I've been focusing on work and my son, and friends, much more then I thought id be able to.

CWarrior When I was saying we I believe it was more future related on if I should do it soon or not. Also I am very excited for the Vacay and would have NEVER took one without him before and it's very freeing.

Ready2Change 19 when I had my son, and H was 20 when we met, but other then that everything is pretty accurate lol I am trying to do your advice as well. As for your second response, I have been working on my list, already have had a few things happen from it, obviously I'm wanting him to do more before Im anywhere near believing him on truly working on things.

May22 Obviously the second situation is more like mine, I have definitely faltered at times, still being so new to all of this, but I have come a long day and I am doing my best and getting stronger in it all everyday. Also I am truly glad you see the "car talk" as I will refer to it, more the way I did, I suppose you'd have to be there to get it alot of the time. I definitely never made it out like what he did was my Fault at all. My H at times has said he is sorry for the infidelity, S etc. but definitely still tries to blame the S on our problems and tries to justify it in which I usually try to make a statement that's validating how he feels at the time but that I disagree and I make an excuse to leave. Its only happen maybe twice while othertimes he takes full blame but it is still happening so I know he isn't fully ready yet, if ever. Thank you for telling me your story with your S, I definitley am not near believing this time for real, it will of course take me a long time to, if this is real. I will look up that Youtube video the first chance I get smile You are correct with boundaries, It's defintley one of the biggest issues I have had, I have however gotten MUCH better at them the last weed, something about him wanting to work on things has made it easier the last week to detach and maintain boundaries, not sure thats good or bad, Im just being honest. I am constantly rereading forums on both subjects to permanently burn the words in my mind LOL Thank you for your support.

Hoping I got everyone, Thank you all for your advice and support as always, I know I wouldnt feel as okay as I do right now, without you all smile
Posted By: BL42 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/26/21 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by Artemis1
My H had his first meeting with the military Chaplain today in which he had planned to learn about more counseling and marriage related services, I hadn't asked for this info, he told it to me of his own accord.

Seems like a positive sign your H scheduling appointments with a Chaplain and researching marriage counseling services.

Originally Posted by Artemis1
It should have ended awhile ago and I have not gotten ahold of my H to see how it went, he went to work right after, or was suppose to at least. Which has been very difficult for me so far but I am trying to stay strong.

Play coy and resist the urge to hound him about it. Think of it as an experiment / test to see if he'll reach out to tell you about it (and perhaps even be excited about it).

Originally Posted by Artemis1
Also My H asked me if I'd be interested in this sort of Marriage related seminar through the Military, its called Strong Bonds, its a sort of seminar with couples on tips on communication and things such as this apparently, he has to sign up soon he said if so, I asked him how long for the deadline, he says he has to check but he believes he has about a month. I told him I am not ready to make that decision right now but I will try to let him know before the deadline if possible.

Just my $0.02, but if it's really H who's asking you to attend a marriage bonding program I'd take him up on it - you just don't want to be the one dragging him to attend something he doesn't want.

Originally Posted by Artemis1
LH19 I have been GALing my butt off as suggested, had a great time going to a fair and concert with a good friend and another day with my son smile I've been focusing on work and my son, and friends, much more then I thought id be able to.

Awesome! Keep it up!

Good update Artemis1. Hope things continue in a positive direction for you...
Posted By: job Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/26/21 11:42 PM
Time for a new thread. Please link both threads together. Thanks!
Posted By: Artemis1 Re: Help! Need Advice please Part 2 - 07/27/21 12:07 AM
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2921903&#Post2921903

This is the link to my new thread smile
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