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Posted By: smilie Picking Up the Pieces After WAW Goes Again #2 - 07/13/21 08:47 AM
Today is the day when my wife sent me a text message that she will not be coming home and that she is with somebody else. Today marks Week #7 - I'm trying not to count.

I have started a new thread.

For anybody following, my previous threads can be found here:

#1 - https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2920063&page=1
#2 - https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2920619&page=1
#3 - https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2920922&page=1

This is a really tough ride and I thank each and every one of you for being there, I am so grateful for all of your time, care and sharing of your experiences. I sincerely don't know how I will ever be able to repay you.

smile
Originally Posted by smilie
And I won't be around to ever know this. It's likely that in a few weeks I will be gone from this area for good. I cannot stay around here with all the memories and the risk of bumping into her. So the only person who will ever know the answer to that question is her and that for me, is a crying shame.

smile


I actually really like this and think this really plays to your favor to have this attitude. The more you can foster they idea that you aren't sticking around waiting for her to finally wake-up, the more likely she will wake up before it is too late.

In most situations, the WS does eventually wake up and question what they are doing. By then often times the LBS has moved forward with their life and does not look back! The beauty of DBing is that by DBing you are going to be fine, NO MATTER WHAT! Sometimes early on it is hard to see that, but one day you will look back and realize that whatever the outcome, the situation was one of the best things that ever happened.
Quote


I get what you mean, but I really didn't have a great life before. It was rubbish. My entire life has been a nightmare and when I got together with my wife (before she was that), it was the best relationship that I had ever had and the best my life has ever been ... until now. I was waiting for it all to come crumbling down much sooner, which is why I waited 8 years to marry, to make sure it was right. From that point on things changed and went downhill. Sex life got less fairly rapidly and a year later she left BD #1.

If I hadn't have gotten ill maybe things would have been able to be built up properly, but then she wasn't honest about having an affair, so the relationship wasn't built on the right foundations from that point. This year, once again, it's turned into a nightmare.

Every single serious relationship (4) I have had I have been abused in some way; 1) Cheated - she left me, 2) Emptied house while I was at work and left, 3) Turned out a psychological manipulator/violent (her) - I left her, 4) WW/WAW & money theft.



Smilie, when i read these lines, the thought that crossed my mind was "this guy is a bad picker"

What i mean by that, is your are making poor partner choices.

Have you always been in a relationship?- You need to be happy in your own skin - not with somebody else making you happy.

You say that the WW was the best relationship, but this woman made you ill !

You say you were cheated on, but then became the OM, when you WW cheated on her partner.

You need to work on you, and sort yourself.. And in a few years time, do a lot of reading before you start dating again ( dont rush the process like so many LBS do ) - No more mr Nice Guy and Dating essentials for Men are two books by Robert Glover which go into details about "bad pickers"

First though - work on you.. People here will always give you advice and we only have your best interests at heart - We have ALL been through this in some way, shape or form.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
when i read these lines, the thought that crossed my mind was "this guy is a bad picker"

What i mean by that, is your are making poor partner choices.

Yes, I obviously am, the trail of destruction proves that.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Have you always been in a relationship?- You need to be happy in your own skin - not with somebody else making you happy.

No. I have spent many years living on my own and I would never jump straight into another relationship, I'm not that type of guy.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
You say that the WW was the best relationship, but this woman made you ill !

Yes I believe that she has and after what she is doing now and the letter I have just received from her lawyer, she's trying to top-up that illness as best she can.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
You say you were cheated on, but then became the OM, when you WW cheated on her partner.

Yep, I deserve that. I have felt bad about this and originally broke the affair off. It didn't last. It should have lasted. This is the first time that I have seen somebody else who's in a relationship ... it will be my last.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
You need to work on you, and sort yourself.. And in a few years time, do a lot of reading before you start dating again ( dont rush the process like so many LBS do ) - No more mr Nice Guy and Dating essentials for Men are two books by Robert Glover which go into details about "bad pickers"

Few years? I'm 55 now! I'll be nearly 60 in a few years! Honestly though, another relationship is the last thing I need, I would prefer to get a dog if I could. I miss having a dog. It's hard in this country to have a dog in a rented house as many landlord don't accept it.

I agree that I need to work on myself and I shall. Firstly I just need some space, some peace and to get this rubbish sorted. I have a copy of No More Mr. Nice guy and have added both books to my reading list for after I'm moved.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
First though - work on you.. People here will always give you advice and we only have your best interests at heart - We have ALL been through this in some way, shape or form.

I know and will be forever in their debt. I always consider every word typed and never just write it off and somebody's opinion. Yes, it may be that it is their opinion, but it is an opinion well earned and based on their experience.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by smilie
And I won't be around to ever know this. It's likely that in a few weeks I will be gone from this area for good. I cannot stay around here with all the memories and the risk of bumping into her. So the only person who will ever know the answer to that question is her and that for me, is a crying shame.

smile


I actually really like this and think this really plays to your favor to have this attitude. The more you can foster they idea that you aren't sticking around waiting for her to finally wake-up, the more likely she will wake up before it is too late.

No I'm not, not after I'm finding out just what she is capable of. She is trying to tread me into the ground like a POS of the bottom of her shoe, after taking the savings and trying to take my pensions - she is still trying.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
In most situations, the WS does eventually wake up and question what they are doing. By then often times the LBS has moved forward with their life and does not look back! The beauty of DBing is that by DBing you are going to be fine, NO MATTER WHAT! Sometimes early on it is hard to see that, but one day you will look back and realize that whatever the outcome, the situation was one of the best things that ever happened.

Well, she can then wake up and look at her reflection in the mirror and answer to that. I'm done with her and her games, which she is only just getting started playing, it would seem.
I have just got a letter from my wife's lawyer. She's not going to pay spousal maintenance as she doesn't have any money left. After she left her car developed problems and she had to sell it, that's why she needs to pay for a leased car at 600 a month. Oh, and she needs osteopathic treatment because she has a neck problem because of the stress of the relationship breaking down - did she not break it down?

Furthermore, she has to contribute to the cleaner as her husband has a cleaner - so if he already had one, why does she need to pay for her when he already was then? Oh and the gardener also, of course. She hasn't been able to afford beauty treatments before while living with me, so she's having them now - even though she used to have over 700 spare each month - she chose not to have them and never mentioned that she wanted any. And holidays are essential as she works full-time and doesn't get chance to wind down.

She also wants to know what I've done to find a cheaper place to live and claims that I am unwilling to work! Well that was why she didn't want to supply a statement for my disability claim then. How can she say this knowing full well every tiny intimate detail about my condition? how?

She has emptied both bank accounts and closed one and even somehow got my signature on the paperwork - I have never seen that document and didn't even remember we had that account. If I signed something to close and account and transfer 13,500 to another account (June 2020), I think I would have wanted to know why!

When I ask "What have I done to deserve being treated in this way" and people say I've done "Nothing", then why, oh why, is she treating me like this. This is the worst anybody has treated be before and I thought that she loved me all these years.......I am truly gobsmacked!!

P.S. Who told me that "it's going to get worse" - you were right!
^^^^ "Husband"? I meant to say partner.....
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Even when she tries to frame you as the problem in the MR you need to remember that her brain and the people in her life need to make her illogical and emotionally driven actions seem logical.

You are right - she is doing exactly this now through her lawyer, indicating I am 'unwilling' to work, when she intimately knows I cannot, not in the traditional sense, otherwise, why would we not have solved that issue over the past 7 years?
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Once again smilie don't take any of this personally no matter how personal it feels. None of what she is doing is she doing to cut you at the knees personally, she's doing what she thinks is best for her. You are just an obstacle in her way. This version of reality will come crashing down on her in due time. And she will try to make this seem more and more personal as she loses more and more of what she wants. She's going to blame you. She's going to say and do much worse things. Trust me. But none of it's about you. It's about that elusive happiness she seeks.

Once again spot on, it is getting worse. You should be a fortune teller - seriously - can I be your first client please?

Will her version of reality come crashing down? Really? You've got everything else right so far, but I can't see that she will ever suffer for this and that she will just get everything she wants having shat on me completely. Some would say that she will have no regrets, I think at this stage I would agree. I would never treat anybody the way she is now treating me - it would be against my character, totally. If she had a conscience, surely she wouldn't do what she has done over the past few years, had affairs, coordinated the emptying of accounts and now piscing on me!

I feel so betrayed it's unbelievable!
Smilie,
I get the feeling that you are approaching this from an emotional angle. However, when dealing with lawyers, you may want to think about whether that is going to serve you better than approaching this from a transactional or business perspective.

Originally Posted by smilie

When I ask "What have I done to deserve being treated in this way" and people say I've done "Nothing", then why, oh why, is she treating me like this. This is the worst anybody has treated be before and I thought that she loved me all these years.......I am truly gobsmacked!!


I notice you still spend a lot of energy analyzing why your WAS behaved the way she did and whether it is fair for her to behave that way or not. I am guessing if your WAS on this board, she would have many reasons to justify her behavior. The question you need to ask yourself is does it matter at this point? Your relationship is where it is now regardless of the reason. You are still looking over your shoulder for answers while she seems to be focused on the road ahead. In my opinion you should be focusing on the present and next steps and focusing on things you can control rather than those outside your control.

Originally Posted by smilie


Will her version of reality come crashing down? Really?



This is a good example of focusing on things not in your control.
Originally Posted by smilie
I have just got a letter from my wife's lawyer. She's not going to pay spousal maintenance as she doesn't have any money left.

Makes sense. Her attorney wants her to pay $0 (best for her). At tax time, people try to put down as many deductions as possible. They don't debate the ethics of each. Your attorney wants her to pay a lot (best for you). They'll knock down every improper deduction. In the end, you'll typically wind up at some balance point close to the court guidelines, whether through settlement, mediation, or adjudication.

Originally Posted by smilie
Oh, and she needs osteopathic treatment because she has a neck problem because of the stress of the relationship breaking down - did she not break it down?

An exit affair is more a symptom of a broken relationship than the cause of a broken relationship. She owns her bad breakup behavior of cheating. The breakdown of the relationship is a shared responsibility.

Originally Posted by smilie
why, oh why, is she treating me like this. I thought that she loved me all these years.......I am truly gobsmacked!!

She probably loved you once upon a time--that's why she stood by you through years of hard times.
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Smilie,
I get the feeling that you are approaching this from an emotional angle. However, when dealing with lawyers, you may want to think about whether that is going to serve you better than approaching this from a transactional or business perspective.

Yes I am probably. I can't just flick a switch and look at it like a business transaction when she is rewriting history and blatantly lying to her lawyer who then tries to make me out to be the one at fault.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
I notice you still spend a lot of energy analyzing why your WAS behaved the way she did and whether it is fair for her to behave that way or not. I am guessing if your WAS on this board, she would have many reasons to justify her behavior. The question you need to ask yourself is does it matter at this point? Your relationship is where it is now regardless of the reason. You are still looking over your shoulder for answers while she seems to be focused on the road ahead. In my opinion you should be focusing on the present and next steps and focusing on things you can control rather than those outside your control.

I think you have misinterpreted my focus here and forgive me if I am wrong. I think that you are referring to her behaviour as to how she left and having an A. In my previous post I was referring to her actions that I have discovered today, in closing yet another one of our joint accounts and keeping the money - June 2020 and somehow obtaining my signature on the form without me even seeing the form! She has been clever and cunning, that's for sure. Yes I am focusing on that as I needed to and it has really shocked me in many ways and on so many levels.

I am no longer looking for answers as to why she left. I know why she left. I was useless and had no income as I have a neurological condition and she decided that she wanted to be with the guy who has loads of money and flashy cars that she turned up in on the weekend to collect her clothes. In my book, she has prostituted herself into a better life, convincing a guy to take her into his lifestyle because that's what she wanted. There is absolutely no difference in this to me, than people marrying into money and no doubt she will, unless somehow it al comes crashing down, which I don't think it will as it seems that she always comes up smelling of roses.

The best thing I can do for me is not let her get me down or push me down, but I;m really having problems trying to keep my head above water here. frown
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
Oh, and she needs osteopathic treatment because she has a neck problem because of the stress of the relationship breaking down - did she not break it down?

An exit affair is more a symptom of a broken relationship than the cause of a broken relationship. She owns her bad breakup behavior of cheating. The breakdown of the relationship is a shared responsibility.

This is where I find it difficult, as I was truly unaware that the relationship had broke down. This is what I really don't get. She acted brilliantly of course, so that she would give me the impression that everything was ok, all while she was maneuvering things into position behind the scenes - slight of hand, if you like. I feel like I'm being a bit thick here and feel that I must be missing something?

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
why, oh why, is she treating me like this. I thought that she loved me all these years.......I am truly gobsmacked!!

She probably loved you once upon a time--that's why she stood by you through years of hard times.

Again, something else I don't get. If she loved me "once upon a time", then when she stopped loving me why not end the relationship nicely and go our own separate ways? Why drag it on year after year pretending to love me, saying she loved me, etc, etc? I stood by her in the hard times 7.5 years when she was ill. Why doesn't that count? Why am I the bad guy because I have this bloomin' awful condition that cannot be resolved? Please forgive me, but I really don't get this either and think that I must be extremely thick?
Originally Posted by smilie
I have just got a letter from my wife's lawyer.
This is negotiations. You have claims, she has claims. You can agree or disagree about any part of it.

At some point you both settle. If you can't settle, then arbitration. If that fails then a judge makes a ruling.

It is an emotional time for you and your spouse. The lawyers are in the middle making money. Lots of things to stir up some anger. Anger is raw energy.

Channel the anger into positive action. For example, action into researching the divorce laws of you area. Get educated.

Stay strong. Work to protect yourself. You can handle it.
Originally Posted by smilie
This is where I find it difficult, as I was truly unaware that the relationship had broke down.

I bet! BD is a shock for most of us. In my case, there were many signs. In your case, it sounds like there were few recent signs. That has to be all the more frustrating. smirk

Originally Posted by smilie
I know why she left. I was useless and had no income as I have a neurological condition and she decided that she wanted to be with the guy who has loads of money and flashy cars that she turned up in on the weekend to collect her clothes. In my book, she has prostituted herself

You have no idea why she chose him. You seem to be mindreading and villainizing her.
Smilie, another technique that I have found useful. My STBXW has been in a 1 year+ R with OM. She started it whilst we were still living together. I tortured myself for many months with the question of "how could she move on so quickly after 14 years together".

How I see it now is, she wanted out, her meeting someone new was an inevitability. Why does it matter the timeframe? What timeframe would have been acceptable? 3 months, 6 months? It's just a number, therefore it doesn't matter. The time it takes them to move on is neither good or bad, it is only your perception that makes it so.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
I tortured myself for many months with the question of "how could she move on so quickly after 14 years together".

I know you're right and it doesn't matter. What's happening inside her head is what makes her move on, flipped the a switch that made husband -> enemy & lover -> partner. She's been moving on for a while, that much is obvious.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
How I see it now is, she wanted out, her meeting someone new was an inevitability. Why does it matter the timeframe? ... It's just a number, therefore it doesn't matter. The time it takes them to move on is neither good or bad, it is only your perception that makes it so.

You are correct.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
You have no idea why she chose him. You seem to be mindreading and villainizing her.

I didn't think that I was, it's just what I see. I suppose I'm wrong again then smile
smilie, another cycle that doesn't get enough discussion is the LBS cycling between desperation to save their marriage at all costs to ready to throw the WAS out of their life for good, and every state in between. I remember this early on in my sitch where one minute I would be desperate to find the thing to say or do that would save my marriage, to the next minute where I was ready just to get rid of her and move on with my life. And lots of states in between that. And actually finding the middle balance is the key. Enough of a desire to move forward with your life with or without the WAS to DB effectively, but also enough of a desire to save your MR that you behave around them in the appropriate ways (think sandi's rules).

The wild swings of holding on for dear life to waiting to just pull the plug and forget about them doesn't really help. I struggled the most in the extremes of those two things. The first caused me to behave in ways that actually pushed her farther away (including snooping on her), and the latter caused me to forget the principles taught in sandi's rules and to trend back towards passive-aggressiveness and some of the damaging behavior that led us to the point we were at to begin with. But that sweet spot in the middle is where I could DB my tail off, and do really well the GAL, 180s, and detachment that were so key.

So just be aware of the cycle. We've seen it with lots of posters here. One minute they are ready to chain their WAS to a fixed point in the house to keep them from leaving, and the next they are ready to throw them out on their ear.
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
How I see it now is, she wanted out, her meeting someone new was an inevitability. Why does it matter the timeframe? ... It's just a number, therefore it doesn't matter. The time it takes them to move on is neither good or bad, it is only your perception that makes it so.

You are correct.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
You have no idea why she chose him. You seem to be mindreading and villainizing her.

I didn't think that I was, it's just what I see. I suppose I'm wrong again then smile

In some cases, OM is a "predator" More often, it's just some shlub that got caught up in it. In many cases these things are the result of a thousand micro-escalations instead of a decision that someone has made. i.e. two people are unhappy in their marriages and start discussing it with each other. The validation feels good, after a few get togethers one of them says something only mildly flirtatious. The other person likes the attention and doesn't object, or says something mildly flirtatious back. The next time it's slightly more flirtatious, etc. etc. and before they know it they're way over the line.

At that point, they are not thinking about you, or their wife, or kids, or anything else -- they're just enjoying the attention. They are of course aware that they're doing something wrong, but they're ignoring it and putting on blinders.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
How I see it now is, she wanted out, her meeting someone new was an inevitability. Why does it matter the timeframe? What timeframe would have been acceptable? 3 months, 6 months? It's just a number, therefore it doesn't matter. The time it takes them to move on is neither good or bad, it is only your perception that makes it so.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.
Originally Posted by smilie
I know why she left. I was useless and had no income as I have a neurological condition and she decided that she wanted to be with the guy who has loads of money and flashy cars that she turned up in on the weekend to collect her clothes. In my book, she has prostituted herself

Originally Posted by CWarrior
You have no idea why she chose him. You seem to be mindreading and villainizing her.

Originally Posted by smilie
I didn't think that I was, it's just what I see. I suppose I'm wrong again then smile

You observed she's driving a new car, implied his car/money was why she chose him, then went as far as to say "she has prostituted herself." That leap requires some mindreading.

The women I dated who had underemployed or unemployed ex's did tend to look for someone self-sufficient. There's a difference between dating for someone who doesn't decrease her wealth, and dating for someone who increases her wealth. When you date real people, they often exceed your minimums in some areas. That may be the case with his flashy car, or maybe that is why she dated him! Neither of us knows.

She does own at least one villainous action--cheating on you by having an exit affair.
Unconditional vs Conditional Love

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I’m a romantic and still believe in love and unconditional love for my partner.

Originally Posted by LH
CWs it's interesting that you would make this statement when you divorced your W when she was depressed. That doesn't sound like unconditional love to me. Maybe I'm wrong?

Originally Posted by Steve
Love, except for parent-child (and for those of us who believe, God to human-beings) is never unconditional.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
As to unconditional love, there's no such thing. All love is conditional. If your child is a serial killer you're still going to love them but you're not going to love them the way you loved them as a baby. Love evolves and changes.


LH, deep question. I believe I can love someone AND decide it's best if our lives don't intersect. You've no doubt read or watched some adaptation of the story, "The Fox And The Hound?"

Steve, I grew up with parents who didn't love me. Look at how many full-time single parents there are, cases of abandonment or neglect. If the enduring love parents give their children is a free choice, not automatic like breathing, that makes it more special, something we can bestow upon others?

Wayfarer, yes, the way(s) we love someone changes. If Little Johnn became a serial killer, some love may endure, but I may act against his interests (turn him in) and stop proudly sharing his pics. In your book, I could honestly tell a partner or child, "I'll always love you," but not "I love you unconditionally."

Food for thought. My big takeaway is I still have baggage to prioritize working through re: my XW, as I can fairly say I love all my ex's except her. She's just an acquaintance I co-parent well with.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Unconditional vs Conditional Love

[quote=CWarrior]I’m a romantic and still believe in love and unconditional love for my partner.

Ok so you say this then:
Originally Posted by CWarrior
LH, deep question. I believe I can love someone AND decide it's best if our lives don't intersect. You've no doubt read or watched some adaptation of the story, "The Fox And The Hound?"

Then you say this:
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Food for thought. My big takeaway is I still have baggage to prioritize working through re: my XW, as I can fairly say I love all my ex's except her. She's just an acquaintance I co-parent well with.

So after summing it all up I would say you have no clue what the meaning of unconditional love means lol.
LH19, lol, I strove for unconditional love towards my XGF. I never claimed to unconditionally love my XW. I wasn't in a place in my life when I married her to offer anything like that.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I never claimed to unconditionally love my XW. I wasn't in a place in my life when I married her to offer anything like that.
LOL. Smack my forehead!
Originally Posted by LH19
As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

Do you think this applies to everybody or just those who have problems communicating? For me I held no resentment for my wife. If I had an issue, or something on my mind or thought there was a problem, then I would mention my concerns to see if there was something to them. You know, just lightly throw it out there and see what comes back.

This is what I don't get, how can somebody put you on trial, not tell you you're on trial and give you no reason why you are on trial and unbenownst to you, you're not on any trial at all! This is Death by Silence. It may be real, but why the hell don't people just communicate - you know, talk with each other once in a while, rather than giving the other person no clue, no hope and a bloomin' huge surprise ending ... and not a happy one either! smile
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
I know why she left. I was useless and had no income as I have a neurological condition and she decided that she wanted to be with the guy who has loads of money and flashy cars that she turned up in on the weekend to collect her clothes. In my book, she has prostituted herself

Originally Posted by CWarrior
You have no idea why she chose him. You seem to be mindreading and villainizing her.

Originally Posted by smilie
I didn't think that I was, it's just what I see. I suppose I'm wrong again then smile

You observed she's driving a new car, implied his car/money was why she chose him, then went as far as to say "she has prostituted herself." That leap requires some mindreading.

Maybe, but the dots aren't that hard to connect, bearing in mind that she deals with high-worth clients. Maybe I am wrong and maybe I'm wrong for assuming that, but I can see it as plain as day and by past experience, I have usually 'assumed' correctly.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
The women I dated who had underemployed or unemployed ex's did tend to look for someone self-sufficient. There's a difference between dating for someone who doesn't decrease her wealth, and dating for someone who increases her wealth.

When you date real people, they often exceed your minimums in some areas. That may be the case with his flashy car, or maybe that is why she dated him! Neither of us knows.

I get that, but if you are in a relationship and the wealth has been minimal and an opportunity comes along to have a go at changing that but you'll have to put some effort in, why would you not want to do that? We were speaking of creating more income. She said that's what she wanted but she didn't act on anything or do anything about it with me. She repeatedly gave me the impression that she wanted to do it together, then didn't. So I didn't as I was waiting for her instead of just doing it.

Compare that with an opportunity that comes along where you don't have to apply any effort. What's more it's more enjoyable because somebody is pressing your buttons and making you 'feel' something that you haven't felt in a while because you're in a long-term relationship that you can't be bothered to ever work at - remember she had an affair inside a year of being married 10 years back. You don't have to struggle anymore, you don't have to have an older car anymore and you can live in a much nicer house with much nicer things - and all at a moments notice - out of one door and in to the next, and all you have to do is sleep with somebody for a while. How is that not prostituting yourself for a better life? Or am I missing the point entirely?

This is what really gets to me, as you can probably tell. This is the knife in the heart. This is what makes me want to just curl up and die. It's just seems so, so shallow. Seriously. Just knowing she has done this hurts bad, even now.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
She does own at least one villainous action--cheating on you by having an exit affair.

And more besides, as has clearly been shown with some basic uncovering of records. The entire thing stinks to high heaven and has been carefully calculated and planned. However, loopholes were left and the tidy-up wasn't that precise maybe. Only time will tell.
Can't believe the unconditional love thing is still going on! Lol smile
Originally Posted by smilie

Do you think this applies to everybody or just those who have problems communicating? For me I held no resentment for my wife. If I had an issue, or something on my mind or thought there was a problem, then I would mention my concerns to see if there was something to them. You know, just lightly throw it out there and see what comes back.

This is what I don't get, how can somebody put you on trial, not tell you you're on trial and give you no reason why you are on trial and unbenownst to you, you're not on any trial at all! This is Death by Silence. It may be real, but why the hell don't people just communicate - you know, talk with each other once in a while, rather than giving the other person no clue, no hope and a bloomin' huge surprise ending ... and not a happy one either! smile


Smilie,

You are still trying to rationalise things.

What LH has posted is gold. I remember the first time i read it ( i've reposted it a few times myself ) - i was like "on the money"

People do handle resentment differently - But it was probably a series of things that all clicked into place, and although resement was there, thats the same for most couples - people always carry some resentment around, even over small things..

You are looking for answers, to which you will most likely never know the truth.

You are dealing with emotion. I know you feel like the issues stem from illness / work etc - They may have been a factor, BUT the bigger factor is your WWs history - She has a habit of jumping.

Even if you earned a hundred grand a year and had the nice cars, some other guy could walk along and peak her interest. On a given day, at a given time, if her interest is peaked enough, shes on that roller coaster.

To put into context, my WW was discussing another baby via text on the Tuesday night. On the saturday, she went out and met a guy in town - and added him on Facebook the day after. A few days later, its 100s of messages between them and shes never been happy.. Like WTF ??

Watch Sex Life on Netflix or download it. There is a topic on here about it, and it says a lot.

I said on one of my initial posts, you are looking for answers / reasoning - You are trying to apply logic to your wifes wayward mindset - They are not compatible.
Originally Posted by smilie
Do you think this applies to everybody or just those who have problems communicating?

It applies to everyone but especially people who have communicating problems.

Originally Posted by smilie
For me I held no resentment for my wife. If I had an issue, or something on my mind or thought there was a problem, then I would mention my concerns to see if there was something to them. You know, just lightly throw it out there and see what comes back.

No resentment for lack of sex?

Originally Posted by smilie
This is what I don't get, how can somebody put you on trial, not tell you you're on trial and give you no reason why you are on trial and unbenownst to you, you're not on any trial at all! This is Death by Silence. It may be real, but why the hell don't people just communicate - you know, talk with each other once in a while, rather than giving the other person no clue, no hope and a bloomin' huge surprise ending ... and not a happy one either! smile

Smilies this is going to sound really bad but it very well could be your sickness. What could she have said to you? Get better or else. If I am reading your updates correctly she started her exit strategy as early as last June.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Originally Posted by smilie

Do you think this applies to everybody or just those who have problems communicating? For me I held no resentment for my wife. If I had an issue, or something on my mind or thought there was a problem, then I would mention my concerns to see if there was something to them. You know, just lightly throw it out there and see what comes back.

This is what I don't get, how can somebody put you on trial, not tell you you're on trial and give you no reason why you are on trial and unbenownst to you, you're not on any trial at all! This is Death by Silence. It may be real, but why the hell don't people just communicate - you know, talk with each other once in a while, rather than giving the other person no clue, no hope and a bloomin' huge surprise ending ... and not a happy one either! smile


You are still trying to rationalise things.

This is what I do, I'm a logic guy. I was a software develop for many years, then an System Administrator & IT Manager for a legal firm. I find solutions....well, used to. So I'm always trying to find the logic and I know from what I've read here that there is no logic and it's emotions, so all I am trying to do is understand .... still.

I've spent my life watching women leave normal guys to be with the dude with the flash car, flash suit and a buldging wallet. "She's with him for his money", people used to say, as quite often the blokes were to55ers, ugly or just plain horrible. Is there no truth in this then?

Originally Posted by MrBrside

What LH has posted is gold. I remember the first time i read it ( i've reposted it a few times myself ) - i was like "on the money"

People do handle resentment differently - But it was probably a series of things that all clicked into place, and although resement was there, thats the same for most couples - people always carry some resentment around, even over small things..

You are looking for answers, to which you will most likely never know the truth.

You are dealing with emotion. I know you feel like the issues stem from illness / work etc - They may have been a factor, BUT the bigger factor is your WWs history - She has a habit of jumping.

Even if you earned a hundred grand a year and had the nice cars, some other guy could walk along and peak her interest. On a given day, at a given time, if her interest is peaked enough, shes on that roller coaster.

So why bother with dating then, if they all have the capacity to do this? Why wouldn't the next partner do exactly the same thing?

Originally Posted by MrBrside
To put into context, my WW was discussing another baby via text on the Tuesday night. On the saturday, she went out and met a guy in town - and added him on Facebook the day after. A few days later, its 100s of messages between them and shes never been happy.. Like WTF ??

That's tough man, sorry. So if things don't makes sense at all then, how do they make sense to a woman? Arrgh! I know it's emotions but I just don't get it how they can disregard their commitments without a thought or a care in the world.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Watch Sex Life on Netflix or download it. There is a topic on here about it, and it says a lot.

So I was going to watch this as I have been looking at some of the discussion on the group. I didn't want to watch it in case it makes me feel terrible, as if I think about my wife doing stuff like that I go into an instant panic - don't know why. I am a bit sensitive at the moment. Perhaps I'll give it a go.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
I said on one of my initial posts, you are looking for answers / reasoning - You are trying to apply logic to your wifes wayward mindset - They are not compatible.

So then I ask politely once again and please give a direct answer - How do I make sense of this, as you guys seem to have it off pat, right? smile
Originally Posted by LH19
No resentment for lack of sex?

Ouch! Yep, found some! Not strong enough though, but I suppose it builds up. I certainly wouldn't end a relationship because of it without first raising it as a serious issue. Thinking as I type, it's just what I do because that's what is right - to me, doesn't mean that's what everybody else is going to do and of course, she has always had her strategy for acting on that feeling - the trigger if you will that starts that process off.

Originally Posted by LH19
Smilies this is going to sound really bad but it very well could be your sickness. What could she have said to you? Get better or else. If I am reading your updates correctly she started her exit strategy as early as last June.

Course it doesn't sound bad, it's true and I've thought that as well. Remember she sent a text telling me that it wasn't that and it wasn't because I didn't work. The brain can't process negatives directly so she was telling me exactly why, the only bit of truth she did say probably, was that she "didn't know why".

Seems so lame to cause so much damage to somebody else in a calculated and cold-hearted fashion, organizing the drawing out of money to make them destitute, ruin their retirement and all without my knowledge and not know why? What a crock! And I just have to accept and live with that? It's a tough one!
Quote

This is what I do, I'm a logic guy. I was a software develop for many years, then an System Administrator & IT Manager for a legal firm. I find solutions....well, used to. So I'm always trying to find the logic and I know from what I've read here that there is no logic and it's emotions, so all I am trying to do is understand .... still.


You will find that a lot of men are logical. Especially on this forum, the majority ( not all ) have a very rational minset. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of men who arent - I joined a few facebook groups for men who had been cheated on, and the amount of men that have melt downs / turn to drink / get angry is astonising. Generally, the posters on here seem to look for answers and end up here.

I get where you are coming from. I'm an IT Director and also spend my days fixing things - When i'm not at my desk or with my kids, i'm under a car - fixing things. Thats what we do - We apply logic to these situations, that are fuelled by WW emotion.. Hence logic wont work - EVER.

In her current mindset, your WW believes everything she is saying - YOU are at fault and YOU were making her unhappy. Nothing you say or do at this point will change it.

Quote

So why bother with dating then, if they all have the capacity to do this? Why wouldn't the next partner do exactly the same thing?


Only you can answer that question - For me, i date because i enjoy sex lol. That said, i very much doubt i'll ever end up in a long term relationship again. I am very very happy with my current life. One thing i do know, is that i will no longer compromise / ignore red flags - this is the downside, as i frequently walk away from dates thinking she was nice, but X, Y, Z red flag wise.

Quote


So then I ask politely once again and please give a direct answer - How do I make sense of this, as you guys seem to have it off pat, right?



I cant tell you what to do.. For me it was 3 things.

Control, respect, dignity

IMO the first thing you need to do is realise you have no control over the WW or her actions.
You can only control you. Until you accept this, and keep going over the same old ground, you wont move forward and you will keep over thinking everything.

Then, like i said initially - get a list together and work on you - Where you want to be - what you want to achieve as a single man - Then hit that list .. tick, tick , tick !
Originally Posted by smilie
Why wouldn't the next partner do exactly the same thing?

It's certainly possible but you will be better prepared. I was dating a girl and things were going great for about 3 months. Then out of no where I got a text saying she needed to step back from us and figured some stuff out. She had been contacted by an ex boyfriend regarding reconciliation. She had been with him and known him longer. More of an EMOTIONAL connection. Logic and reason would say it didn't work out the first time why would it now. So I wished her well and moved on. It stung but once you survive what you are going through now you become so much stronger and wiser. Eventually as we age people are more looking for stability. Most of the WS here are in their 40s and think this is their last shot at "happiness". So much of this is hormones, brain chemicals, mental illness and lack of understanding how long term relationships work.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Only you can answer that question - For me, i date because i enjoy sex lol.

So awesome! Spit my coffee!
Originally Posted by smilie
So why bother with dating then, if they all have the capacity to do this? Why wouldn't the next partner do exactly the same thing?

smilie, why bother dating, if all men and women have the capacity to leave?

I find dating rewarding because I enjoy learning new things, companionship, romance, sex, and people I can count on (whether or not the relationship works out romantically). In the last month, I met Ms Paddleboarder, who's up for lending me her board so we can go standup paddleboarding any day we're both free. I met Ms TallChemist, who hikes with me and we chat most nights. If someone has a positive impact on my life, I'm glad I met them, whether they're there 3 months or 10 years, a friend or lover. Love comes with the potential for heartbreak. Heartbreak is a sign that I can still love. I'd rather feel it than be jaded.

If you had 10 good years, hold onto that and resist the urge to rewrite them as miserable. If you had 10 miserable years, learn from that--why didn't you fix it or go? Don't repeat that mistake in the future. I hear that war inside of you. You blame being sick on living a lie (of your choosing) for 10yrs.

I tend to choose partners who fought hard to keep their relationships, whether they ultimately stayed or left, because I want an "enduring love" (nod to wayfarer). Over the years, I've learned how to fight harder than I thought I could, and when to let go. I've never been cheated on afaik. Many won't cheat on you.

If you're here in 1-2 years, you'll probably find me in a new LTR, hopefully my last. (:
Why doesn't the WAS tell you that you're on trial or when you lose the trial?

When I was a WAS (married, 10yrs together) and "BD" was serving her D papers--
1) I didn't feel I should have to threaten my XW with divorce to get her to make the necessary changes.
2) My attorney advised against telling my XW until I'd ensured my interests were maximally protected in a divorce. Those preparations took time. Giving my spouse a heads-up would be counterproductive

When I was a LBS (3yr LTR) and "BD" was finding half my family and furniture gone--
1) She felt home life after announcing could be awkward for her daughter.
2) She wanted to ensure she landed on her feet--e.g., had found an affordable place to stay, could get her daughter moved to a local school, etc.--before announcing the end.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
I get where you are coming from. I'm an IT Director and also spend my days fixing things

Any jobs going? Can I work remotely? Lol! smile

Originally Posted by MrBrside
When i'm not at my desk or with my kids, i'm under a car - fixing things. Thats what we do - We apply logic to these situations, that are fuelled by WW emotion.. Hence logic wont work - EVER.

My brain see's this. It hears me say this, so why doesn't it listen? It's the life-long conditioning of trying to find solutions that's the downfall here I think. But then logic says, that if you know that you can't apply logic to solve the problem - and in actual fact the only person who perceives it as a problem is the LBS - then why keep trying? It's maddening and I don't even think I'm doing it most of the time.

This is where the focus on you and GAL comes in, isn't it? I think something's just clicked.... Only I, the LBS, has a problem.

For a HUGE issue that was created by her walking away, it's such a simple thing. There's all the stuff around it such as why did she do this and how long for and who with and where, is he better a better person than me, etc., but the actual thing was that she chose to leave, she wanted out and she went. She chose how to go about it and she will have to answer to her actions and the damage she has caused - especially financial - towards me. She has also given herself a bad reputation with the estate agent lady who will, without doubt, have conversations about this 'fantastical story', which will fly around this very small town in a nano-second. Wouldn't be very good for the business she works for as how would people trust her with their money once they know? Let alone the risk to her potentially losing her practicing certificate and therefore her career, if it is proven. These things are HER problem.

They are the consequences of her actions that she probably didn't even think about, but us logic guys would. I still say somebody is pushing her buttons though, influencing her to do this. I may be surprise one day to find out it was all her, but I have never seen her do stuff like this. The opportunity presented itself (Claim money & Pension money) and she chose.

That must be where detaching comes into play. I am just waiting for the day to arrive when I just can't be bothered to think about it anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that I have to move I would be able to concentrate more on GAL from the outset, but all my days at the moment are spent gathering paperwork, approving lawyers letters and court forms, and looking for a place to be. Finally got to bed at 1:30am last night.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
In her current mindset, your WW believes everything she is saying - YOU are at fault and YOU were making her unhappy. Nothing you say or do at this point will change it.

And that then gives her the excuse she needs to take all my dental damages money, our savings and try to grab my pension funds, just because she feels everything is my fault and she has to punish me and ruin my life completely, whatever the cost? After all, she has to recoup some of the money she's been bringing home, doesn't she? Wow, if that is the way she is thinking, no wonder she didn't think about the consequences - just acted.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
One thing i do know, is that i will no longer compromise / ignore red flags - this is the downside, as i frequently walk away from dates thinking she was nice, but X, Y, Z red flag wise.

Something else I need to learn about at some stage I suppose.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
IMO the first thing you need to do is realise you have no control over the WW or her actions.
You can only control you. Until you accept this, and keep going over the same old ground, you wont move forward and you will keep over thinking everything.

But I have known this for years, decades even, that you can't control the other person and I am not trying to do that, never have. It's just the understanding I was trying to get, but I can't get that either. Again, this is where GAL comes in otherwise I'll be unfocused on things and still trying to work it out - driving myself nuts!

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Then, like i said initially - get a list together and work on you - Where you want to be - what you want to achieve as a single man - Then hit that list .. tick, tick , tick !

Doing that. Done so much house hunting with very little return. I'm working out just one body part a day at the moment as I find it hard to focus for long, but I'm not happy, I wasn't fat, but I've now got sagging skin especially around my middle, like I was an obese person who lost weight. It's horrible. I was only a 34 waist! about 28 now. I did a bit of research and apparently collagen can help, so I got some of that. It's because I lost one and a half stone in just under 3 weeks because of this AND I've been eating. If it weren't for my skin I'd be well chuffed! Hope it catches up. Tips anybody? Lol!
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
So why bother with dating then, if they all have the capacity to do this? Why wouldn't the next partner do exactly the same thing?

smilie, why bother dating, if all men and women have the capacity to leave?

I find dating rewarding because I enjoy learning new things, companionship, romance, sex, and people I can count on (whether or not the relationship works out romantically).

I've never really been one to go dating, always been fairly reserved. I tend to prefer meeting people in general surroundings, but these days it's all about dating apps. I don't have an expensive phone, mine is years old and I de-googled it so it's pretty basic. It's my wife's old phone that I had when I brought her a new one for her birthday one year ago next month.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
In the last month, I met Ms Paddleboarder, who's up for lending me her board so we can go standup paddleboarding any day we're both free. I met Ms TallChemist, who hikes with me and we chat most nights. If someone has a positive impact on my life, I'm glad I met them, whether they're there 3 months or 10 years, a friend or lover. Love comes with the potential for heartbreak. Heartbreak is a sign that I can still love. I'd rather feel it than be jaded.

That sounds nice. I haven't dated for a lifetime it seems, 21 years? Blimey, that's long. The problem I have is that if women are looking for men who work, then I've lost before I've even begun.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If you had 10 good years, hold onto that and resist the urge to rewrite them as miserable. If you had 10 miserable years, learn from that--why didn't you fix it or go? Don't repeat that mistake in the future. I hear that war inside of you. You blame being sick on living a lie (of your choosing) for 10yrs.

Well I had 19 good years, with the relationship, minus the issues 10 years back for a year or so to get back on track, I just don't know how many year of that were fake - probably the last 10. It's been overcast by this wretched illness for the past 7 years.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I tend to choose partners who fought hard to keep their relationships, whether they ultimately stayed or left, because I want an "enduring love" (nod to wayfarer). Over the years, I've learned how to fight harder than I thought I could, and when to let go. I've never been cheated on afaik. Many won't cheat on you.

Being cheated on is horrible, it is like mental torture, especially if you suspect but don't really know. I was cheated on by my first serious girlfried in my 20's. We lived together and she used to go out with friends ... and come home really late. There was me waiting, wondering, worrying. Then one day she didn't come home from work and that was that! Just a repeat of this really.

My second serious girlfriend cleared my house out and I came home to a bed and my tropical fishtank and the 3rd one turned into a violent drunk when she lost her job, then transformed into an absolute psycho. Arguments, plates crashing around, passing out and vomiting everywhere - nice - and well, you know all about the 4th one, the one I waited 8 years to make sure we were good together before we got married, then she cheats inside of a year and then again now. That's my love luck.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If you're here in 1-2 years, you'll probably find me in a new LTR, hopefully my last. (:

I think I'll stick around for a while. Reckon you'll have better luck than me and I wish you well in your search. I remember finding it hard to get a date as I hadn't got a lot of confidence. smile
Originally Posted by smilie
I just don't know how many year of that were fake - probably the last 10

You will never fully know her or anyone else's experience. You only know your own. Whatever feelings you experienced--love, pain, joy, sadness--were real and meaningful. I have to remind myself this sometimes, when I ask questions like, "Was the sex meaningful?" Answer: "It was meaningful to me."

I get you were living a pretense when you neither fully confronted nor let go of the notion she had cheated 10yrs ago. I get that stress/burden may not have helped your health.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
i date because i enjoy sex
Do you like being tied up? If not, big red flag. wink
Originally Posted by smilie
I tend to prefer meeting people in general surroundings,

That still works today. (:

Originally Posted by smilie
The problem I have is that if women are looking for men who work, then I've lost before I've even begun.

That's what is great about dating apps. On Bumble, "unemployed" appears right on your profile photo. You only chat with the women who see that and are still interested (swipe right). (:

Originally Posted by smilie
I remember finding it hard to get a date as I hadn't got a lot of confidence. smile

This you need to address. It's DEFINITELY worth taking a few months to address any self-compassion issues to accept who you are, and also work on areas you feel uncomfortable with--e.g., your living situation, your employment, etc. It sounds like you imagine women flock to men with big.. incomes. In the past month I've dated.. a dozen?.. women. Only one asked about my finances. I was very vague.
Smilie, I don't want this to sound harsh, but I am going to be direct. You are holding a pity party for yourself and being a victim. This is fine at first, I am sure we all did it, I know I did. But continuing to do this brings many problems, you will forever feel stuck and bitter, people will not want to be around you, it is unattractive and most importantly you will not be able to go out and create an awesome life better than the one you've been living so far.

Don't get me wrong, this process takes a long time. I am 13 months post the height of it and I still struggle sometimes, I imagine it will probably take another year to feel totally myself again. Sooner or later Smilie, you need to stop asking why, stop demonising her, stop the "woe is me" and start building the new life.

Read this:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435116
16th July 2021 - Divorce Filed
What a nasty feeling. Seeing as my stbxw hasn't agreed to pay maintenance, a court petition has had to be filed and seeing that this has had to be filed, the divorce petition also needed to be filed. So, it has. This will probably be seen by her that I am making her unhappy, I hope she sees the potential damage that may be caused to her career as reasons for maintenance without mediation have needed to be explained to the court.

And so the process begins. I have pulled the plug on our marriage - I suppose she pulled the plug on our relationship. I wonder how long it will take that dirty water together with the upset and pain, to drain away?

It's at moment like these that I wish I could just sit down with her for a conversation. I was thinking this morning while working out that I would have liked to tell her that I really don't want to file for divorce but I no longer have an option. I even may have even considered R if she reached out. If she hadn't stolen the money, then I wouldn't need to apply for maintenance so quickly and then i could spend more of my energy looking to move and that makes me just want to get out of this and start rebuilding a life on my own.

Onwards and upwards.

GALing: Had workout this morning. Going to park to read soon, get some fresh air, as it will be too hot later and I need a break.
D often is just another step in the process. So many LBSs think D means a definite and permanent end to the R and are terrified of it. It doesn't have to be. You just keep DBing.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
I just don't know how many year of that were fake - probably the last 10

You will never fully know her or anyone else's experience. You only know your own. Whatever feelings you experienced--love, pain, joy, sadness--were real and meaningful. I have to remind myself this sometimes, when I ask questions like, "Was the sex meaningful?" Answer: "It was meaningful to me.

You are right. The relationship was meaningful to me, I loved her and it felt good for me gave me a sense of belonging somewhere and I've not felt like that before. It's just such a shame it has come crashing down in the manner it has and it has made me question a lot of things. I hate to think that OM was in her mind while we had sex and that probably was he case - something else I will never know.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
That's what is great about dating apps. On Bumble, "unemployed" appears right on your profile photo. You only chat with the women who see that and are still interested (swipe right). (:

I hate dating apps. I just think that a lot of people use them just to get sex from the information I've read from people's experience. But it's good that it has status. Shame it's "unemployed" and not "semi-retired". Either way I have no income. I trust that you can put other information in also.

I can't see me looking for dates just yet, but I notice that the bumble has a network app too - so that may be a place to start.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
I remember finding it hard to get a date as I hadn't got a lot of confidence. smile

This you need to address. It's DEFINITELY worth taking a few months to address any self-compassion issues to accept who you are, and also work on areas you feel uncomfortable with--e.g., your living situation, your employment, etc

I'm much more confident these days, although that's taken a big hit and I've never been a good "chat up" artist. I agree that I would need to sort out various aspects of my situation and hopefully take some IC at some stage and read a few books - just started reading "I only he knew" at the moment. A lot of the stuff in their I was doing anyway.



Originally Posted by CWarrior
It sounds like you imagine women flock to men with big.. incomes. In the past month I've dated.. a dozen?.. women. Only one asked about my finances. I was very vague.

That's bad isn't it? I don't think all women do, but if there is a choice between the rich guy who wants them and the average guy who wants them, everything else being equal I would expect that the woman would chose the rich guy.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Smilie, I don't want this to sound harsh, but I am going to be direct. You are holding a pity party for yourself and being a victim. This is fine at first, I am sure we all did it, I know I did. But continuing to do this brings many problems, you will forever feel stuck and bitter, people will not want to be around you, it is unattractive and most importantly you will not be able to go out and create an awesome life better than the one you've been living so far.

Thank you for being honest (that's what I like) and sharing what you see in me. I don't see that I am 'playing' a victim and perhaps it's because I'm stuck in it? I am the victim of some kind of financial deceit and my wife left in the most sudden way leaving me destitute financially and causing all kinds of issues for me because of that, things that I haven't even posted on here. The entire thing has been clearly planned and co-ordinated. I am a victim of what seems like a confidence scheme/trick, but I suppose you are saying that I don't need to act like a victim? It's so difficult knowing that all the money we saved got stolen unfairly and it makes it easier to let go to a certain extent, although I would like to know her reasons that she thought that she had to do that.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Don't get me wrong, this process takes a long time. I am 13 months post the height of it and I still struggle sometimes, I imagine it will probably take another year to feel totally myself again. Sooner or later Smilie, you need to stop asking why, stop demonising her, stop the "woe is me" and start building the new life.

Wow! I have a long way to go then, just 8 weeks this Sunday-Tuesday for me. It's the financial stuff that's really got to me and how she was prepared to do such a horrible thing. Am I really "woe-ing?", crikey I feel so stupid. How can you turn off when it's so raw? It wouldn't be so bad if it was just her leaving to deal with, but I have an entire mountain of stuff to deal with and it's like having a full-time job. Half of it is discovery work.. example:

I have been worrying that the stbw could terminate the phone/internet service without notice, just like she did with the rent. So I decided to call the phone company to see if I could find out if there was anything on the account for the service to be terminated. He couldn't tell me. Even though I was named on the account and was calling from the phone number, because I couldn't pass the security questions they wanted (such as password characters, account number endings and sort codes numbers) I couldn't find out. I wasn't able to talk to a senior manager as I couldn't get through the security questions and my wife would get a notification to her email saying that security questions failed, as well as an alert on the account.

I spent ages speaking with him about the situation and he could do nothing apart from stop the email notification. So if the service is terminated, then it will take 10 days to reconnect with a new contract term - which is stupid seeing as I won't be here that long. If I lose access to the Internet, then I can't find a place to live, access my bank, etc, etc, etc.

^^^-This is just one example. Everything is in her name.

My stbxw was asked by my lawyer to supply online account information, just for this purpose. She hasn't done so. I am totally 100% at the the whim of her thoughts/emotions/actions.


I read it. And I get the Fear thing.

I can then safely say that I'm not trying to control everything. I certainly am not trying to control my wife and I never have tried to do that.

My fear is that I am not in control of anything and feel up-ended. I need to be in control of finding a place to live, securing internet and phone services and mobile phone, from the clutches of my wife. What I fear is the fact that somebody else has full control over me and I have none apart from my thoughts and actions.

It feel that I have not only surrendered my control to her, I have also surrendered my emotions and my soul.

All the examples in that post about fear do not apply for me. I have done a heap of fear work over the years and I don't really fear what people think of me, I would not, not act out of fear. I would not, not say anything out of fear. I may be missing something obvious here. I tend to feel any fear and then go and do stuff anyway, I never run from it and will always speak up. I am a firm believer that if I speak with an open heart and say what is true for me and I'm not being offensive or rude, then however my communication is taken by the other person is their interpretation and not my responsibility. I will always step up and speak my truth, even if I'm in emotional turmoil inside and risk the other person walking out on me and ending the relationship. I needed to say what I said and so I did. I would never sit on it and become bitter and resentful.

I'm harping on a bit. I shall read some more of that thread - it is quite long, but I'm not afraid of speaking up - I used to be but I've been honest for years, decades, and that's the thing that a few people don't like about me. They want me to make sure that they way they interpret my communication to them, doesn't make them feel bad and that's impossible as it's them doing the interpretting through their perceptual filters.
Ok but you are afraid. You're afraid that you were grifted by stbxw. You're afraid that women will pick a rich man first, always. You're afraid of dating. You're afraid of what else will dear stbxw will do moving forward with the D. You're afraid of finding housing. You're afraid you have no control here. Because you haven't relinquished it willingly you relinquished control because you had no other choice.

This is just like the anger thing. You say things that show you are clearly feeling something and then try to rebuff the notion that you are actually feeling things that are pretty clear in print.

And I have to agree with OB on this, you are making yourself a victim. You keep centering this around something that's being done to you. This is all very raw. It's super common to swing wildly from ok to not ok, from sad to angry, but there's this tone of how this has been done to you, that life is a continuous series of events that happened to you. Not a series of events that happened that you had to navigate. There's a huge difference in relinquishing control because you can only control yourself and relinquishing control because you feel there's no point in trying so you allow things to just happen.

I'm going to try really hard to not be insulted that you think most if not all women will choose a rich guy over any other guy. I'm going to try because you're hurting. And that comment came from a place of desperation to understand. In another context I would've laid you out for that. As I'm sure CW, OB and LH can attest to. My H is a blue collar guy, he's not broke by any means, he makes good money but he isn't rolling in cash either. My exH makes more money than him. Guys I went on dates with when my H and I started kind of seeing each other made more money than him. But he and I have very similar upbringings, work ethic, sense of humor, etc. Also chemistry. The chemistry I had with him was/is like something I hadn't had since I was like 18. All of those things were more important. Things like that matter to women. Yes women care about stability and sometimes money comes into play with that but you're not 25. That's not really a concern for a women in her 40s or 50s. Women in general don't pick mates the way men do. Things are less visual and less check boxy than you think. Especially once a women is truly in her womanhood and has shaken off all the little girl notions. It's a feeling in our guts and our hearts, and our heads are little better at red flags with some life experience. But you're only going to be a catch if you're actually a catch.

Which brings me to my next point. The amount of LBHs who get stuck on the idea of physical improvement only is honestly annoying to me. Not saying you're annoying, but I'm warning you to not get caught in that trap because I will tell you you are being annoying if you get stuck here. Working on you isn't just lifting weights and some cardio. Working on you is sitting down and doing some serious introspection and working on all aspects of yourself that could make you a better version of yourself and eventually down the road a better mate. You need to work on your intellectual, spiritual and emotional well being. Fix your personal potholes instead of fixating on stbxw's and that of the the imaginary possible mates you may have in the future.

smilie, this is a hard road to travel. It's not fun. It takes most LBS a while to feel less out of control and raw. so please don't take this advice as a must do immediately or that having those big ugly feelings is wrong. You just need to take some more time to process this stuff. And stop worrying so much about tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day. Seriously focus on you. Focus on today. Focus on small things that can make today better. Focus on small things that can make you feel whole and healthy again. One step at at time. One day at a time.
I approve of wayfarer's message. wink

Originally Posted by smilie
So if the service is terminated, then it will take 10 days to reconnect with a new contract term - which is stupid seeing as I won't be here that long. If I lose access to the Internet, then I can't find a place to live, access my bank, etc, etc, etc.

Smiley, I Googled, and the UK has pay-as-you-go phones, Internet cafes, city wifi, Starbuck wifi, etc. like the US. There may be differences, but you don't seem option-less. You could also ask a neighbor or landlord for help. It's okay to ask for help sometimes. If your area is too small there may be a car, bus, hitchhiking, cycling, walking option to get you to a bigger area. Personally, as long as I knew I had options, I would not spend too much time on "what if". You have Internet now. Use it now to get what you need. Maybe withdraw $100 so if things get desperate you have some capital. That usually makes emergencies easier.

Two years ago I found myself responsible for two friends--carless, $20 between us, 10 miles from the nearest "town", 50 miles from the nearest cell tower, no "through" traffic headed towards the phones/towers. You better believe I found a way to get everyone food, water, and safely out. They never even saw me worry. (I want to be more vulnerable, but in emergencies, I'm glad to be a rock others rely on.)
wayfarer
Please feel free to punch my lights out! Lol! smile I certainly wouldn't be disrespectful to anybody. It's so easy for typed words to be taken wrongly as there is no body language or tonality to go with them, only the readers interpretation of the words as they read them.

It's nice that you chose differently and actually have chosen somebody for who they are and what not what they have or what you thought they could give you. This I think is how a lot of people choose.

Quote
You're afraid that you were grifted by stbxw.

Maybe I am afraid of some things, but I'm not afraid that I have been grifted. She has been doing this since before May 2019 (I checked the bank statements of the savings account again). I am no longer afraid of anything the stbxw does. I think the lawyer will sort it with my help. I have learned loads this week and I have been targeted by her (alone?) and that is not acceptable.

Sorry for being a victim of circumstance - but uncovering what I have uncovered and still continue to uncover, it's hard not to become the victim as by definition, I am, but I won't act like it any further. I feel so empowered that even this god awful shaking has finally stopped.

I am working out one body part a day in my little home gym, because:

1 - A workout of sorts helps with my condition
2 - I have been tasked by the physio to do certain exercises for my upper back
3 - It keeps me fit and active
4 - I like it!

I'm a skinny runt at the moment as I've lost the weight and if I don't train I'll loose a lot more muscle. I'm not vain and I don't think it all about my body. I like to read and learn - always have, that 's how I become different too, as you say.

It is my intention to work on myself spiritually and mentally also. I have been doing this for years until my wife walked out then I couldn't concentrate any more.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
You just need to take some more time to process this stuff. And stop worrying so much about tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day. Seriously focus on you. Focus on today. Focus on small things that can make today better. Focus on small things that can make you feel whole and healthy again. One step at at time. One day at a time.

I certainly do need more time to process things and I think that focusing on one day at a time is a good plan. I think now I know what's really been going on, things will start getting a little bit easier to deal with, because quite frankly, I am angry and annoyed.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I Googled, and the UK has pay-as-you-go phones, Internet cafes, city wifi, Starbuck wifi, etc. like the US. There may be differences, but you don't seem option-less.

Yes there are a few places around here like that but I hate using online banking on public networks. I can do other stuff though.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
You could also ask a neighbor or landlord for help.

I thought of this today also. I shall ask one of my neighbours. I may even be able to pick it up in the comfort of my own home if I get or make a high-gain antenna!
Today I feel like a fool.

For almost 8 weeks I have been in a state of shock and anguish as my wife walked away yet again. The reason that I feel like a fool is because this wasn't a 'spur of the moment' thing for her - it was long planned and calculated, with each and every step coordinated and almost perfectly executed.

I have been posting here as the heartbreak I felt was so terrible, the shaking in my body so bad, the feeling of loss so hard to bare as I once again watched as the love of my life walked out of the door.

Now, this week, 7 weeks on, I find that she has been planning this for months, if not years. She was waiting for my compensation money to come through and immediately grabbed it when it did back in February 2020, suggesting that they would be better off out of the way in her account and the attached 'savings pot' that I didn't have on mine. She told me that it would be safe there until we opened an account to put them in. How stupid was I to trust that my wife was telling me the truth.

I felt physically sick when I found out that only £8,000 of my compensation money was placed in the savings account that she opened - I found that out after she left. She told me that she had transferred my claim money to there and that it was safe. She had hidden my login details that I received from the bank. I didn't know it was a joint account until the day after she left. I trusted that she would have my interests at heart.

Earlier on this week I was in total shock, when I found that the other savings account (which I totally forgot we had) had been emptied. I found that this account had the majority of my compensation money in it, together with the proceeds of our house sale a few years back and extra savings that we put in over time. This account had been closed and the money transferred to her account - all £13,500 of it. The copy of the form authorising closure of the account was signed by her ... and by me. I had never seen this form before, have no recollection of signing it, didn't ever have a discussion about closing it, and never talked about where the money was going and why the account was being closed. How did my signature get on that form?

God only knows what I would had I received the intended compensation of circa £46,000 as was expected until my expert witness changed his mind after having a stroke and coming back to work afterwards.

Last night I looked at the statement that I had received from the bank branch when I went there earlier in the week. I looked in more detail and noticed that my wife had been withdrawing small denominations of money out each month - £200 here, £500 there. The statement only goes up to May 2019 and I am waiting for the full statement to arrive in a couple of weeks.

It's incredible to think that she was also manipulating me to take my pensions out and she almost succeeded. Two of the three are, but the biggest one I saved. Just as before, she set up another joint account for them to be paid in to and triggered off the lump sum payments to be paid to this account. One weekend I shared my concerns about drawing out my pensions and I would like to discuss it with her. It was at this point where she changed.

That weekend she done all she could not to enter into any discussions about my concern with the pension withdrawals and as the weekend went by I reminded her that we still haven't spoken about it. "We will", she reassured me, but as the weekend started to draw to a close, she hadn't started the conversation, so I did. She still wouldn't speak about it and I asked her why she seemed not to hold my concerns and our relationship in a higher regard than work. She talked about work all weekend, but not my concerns about my pensions.

The next week her kiss goodbye didn't feel right. She let it slip that she had booked the next week off work. She didn't want me to walk her to or from work as I usually would and she didn't want us to go away for a few days break when I suggested doing that on her week off that I never know she booked - she told me that she told me "ages ago". She hadn't and it was booked last minute - but why?

Quite simply because she knew that I had changed my mind. She knew that I didn't want to draw out my pensions, there was nothing more for her, nothing more to gain, so she left. I managed to set up a different account and redirect payment for the pensions she triggered to be paid out, into that account. The joint account she set up a week before she left, remains empty.

This seems like a fantastical story, but the realisation that my wife has been planning this for at least 2 years that I can prove, and certainly longer, is incredible. She planned this even prior to us moving here to be near her work so that she could walk to work every day. Does this make all I have written here so far void? She was still a Walk Away Wife, but it would seem that it wasn't that she was going through some form of high emotional stress causing her to run, this was a cold, calculated and well executed, long-term planned effort. Initial investigations have proved it, a full investigation will support that proof, I'm sure.

So now I'm here with my life turned upside down penniless, apart from the money from my pension that I have to spend on legal fees and moving costs.

Due to the fact that she refused to pay any spousal maintenance (alimony), the court needed to be petitioned and the collating of information for this was what has highlighted all this. The petition has been filed and the divorce petition along with it.

Seeing as my wife is a lawyer (did I tell you that bit?), she is using a colleague at work who specialises in divorce. The papers that were filed into the court were sent to her yesterday, together with a full explanation as to why interim support payments need to be paid. The evidence, including bank statement was given as Exhibits, together with the divorce petition. My wife's lawyer would have forwarded a copy of these documents to her. Now she knows that I know what she's been doing and what's more her lawyer is getting a different picture of what she has probably been told.

She has put herself in a position where her reputation is likely to be put in question. She was foolish to use a colleague to represent her. Will that colleague have a duty of care to the company that she works for? Seeing as my wife deals with high net worth clients, is there any chance of her manipulating them in the same way that she has manipulated me? Does her colleague have a duty to report to the partnership that my wife has stolen the savings out of two accounts and was manipulating me into drawing out my pensions to put in a third account? Her actions have been the same for 2 accounts - put my money in leave it there a while and then draw it out together with the rest of the money that was in the account - why wouldn't she not do the same for the third? If she was prepared to defraud me, what is the potential for her to defraud her clients.

Sitting here today, now, I want to divorce my wife. I don't want her in my life anymore, she is broken, she is toxic and she has disgusted me to levels that I never thought possible. I thought the world of her and now I think nothing of her outside of her being a criminal.

I have not been her husband, I have been her target - 'The Mark' to her long con and it makes me feel physically sick.

DBing won't work in this situation, although I am still technically a LBS. I have to somehow pick the pieces up and start a new life again. I have nothing, I have been left with nothing and she has got everything that she ever wanted.

She was probably laughing at me when she left, thinking that she had gotten way from me - gotten away with 'it'. Now after receiving a copy of the court application yesterday and now knowing that I have caught her out, I wonder how she feels today? I wonder how she slept? I wonder what occupies her thoughts ... or even if she cares.

Her reputation at work could be in jeopardy and when the full extent of the financials have been established it is very possible that the police will need to investigate, as I still don't know how my signature got on that paperwork that I have never seen.

Am I a victim? Well I am a victim of a fraudulent and dishonest behaviour, yes, but I don't know how I feel now. Many of you say that I keep focusing on her and I need to focus on me and I am. It's gonna take a while but what has been uncovered this week has made detachment easier. It has made getting over her easier. I would never have thought in a million years that she of all people, would be capable of such devious acts. I have done absolutely nothing to deserve this. All I did was give her the opportunity to manipulate me in ways that nobody has ever manipulated me before - even my mother wasn't this good!

Now I need to dust myself off and work out where to go from here, physically and emotionally. It's going to take a while to process all this. The woman who married me and had an affair inside of a year that she told me she didn't have and the girl that I fell in love with way back in 2001 has turned into the worst enemy I have ever had. My life has been shattered and my thoughts of her have also been shattered along with it.
S,

I met my ex wife in 95 and married in 2001. Early on I’m my marriage I was almost a WS. I got into an EA with a woman at work and contemplating briefly ending my marriage. I ended the EA and went on to starting a family with me ex w. Years afterwards looking back thinking of the ea literally made me sick to my stomach. My son was born in 2004 and daughter in 2008 and up until the fall of 2014 we had an amazing life. I wouldn’t trade those memories for anything. I won’t look back and say the last 24 years was a lie or a waste or anything like that. Just the last 3 years we’re horrible. The reason why they were horrible was because I was trying to hold onto to something that didn’t exist anymore. Our marriage was simply because she didn’t want it anymore. This didn’t mean she regretted the last 24 years either. Just that moving forward she didn’t want to be married to me anymore.

It’s not uncommon for a WS to plan their exit strategy 2-3 years prior. I would try not to take it personally. People change and relationships run their course.

What I will agree with you on is that your W is a pretty $hitty person with low integrity and you can use that to fuel your recovery. You will survive this that I am sure of right now.
Originally Posted by LH19
S,

I met my ex wife in 95 and married in 2001. Early on I’m my marriage I was almost a WS. I got into an EA with a woman at work and contemplating briefly ending my marriage. I ended the EA and went on to starting a family with me ex w. Years afterwards looking back thinking of the ea literally made me sick to my stomach. My son was born in 2004 and daughter in 2008 and up until the fall of 2014 we had an amazing life. I wouldn’t trade those memories for anything. I won’t look back and say the last 24 years was a lie or a waste or anything like that. Just the last 3 years we’re horrible. The reason why they were horrible was because I was trying to hold onto to something that didn’t exist anymore. Our marriage was simply because she didn’t want it anymore. This didn’t mean she regretted the last 24 years either. Just that moving forward she didn’t want to be married to me anymore.

It’s not uncommon for a WS to plan their exit strategy 2-3 years prior. I would try not to take it personally. People change and relationships run their course.

What I will agree with you on is that your W is a pretty $hitty person with low integrity and you can use that to fuel your recovery. You will survive this that I am sure of right now.


THIS

Not only will you survive, but you will thrive again!
I can only imagine how you’re feeling, Smilie.

Probably like you’ve been punched in the gut.

It’s very common for WAS to start planning their exits well in advance, rarely is it a spur of the moment decision. But the fact that your W was secretly funneling money, and knowingly leaving you with nothing, truly speaks to her character.

The others are right, face your reality, and use it as fuel to move forward. You will probably vacillate between sadness and anger for some time, so expect that to happen.

You’re going to be ok once this is all said and done. And you’re going to stronger and wiser as well./

Hang in there.
Thanks for your kind words, all of you.

I've gone downhill fairly fast today and feel totally fed up and bordering on panic feelings again. I never thought that I could ever stop loving her. Even when she left I still loved her, but now I found out what she's been up to and been planning on leaving me penniless and not caring anything about it, those feelings are gone and it's left a huge gaping hole.

I will get over this and become stronger I know I will, but it's always a struggle. If I had the money that got stolen from me, then that would make my next steps much easier. But it's like castrating a dog and expecting it to still be able to impregnate and b!tch - it just ain't gonna happen. Take all the money then expect me to find another place to live and fund the removal process also.

We have spoken before about covert narcissism and I was assured that my wife wasn't a narcissist. But what I have been sharing here about how my wife thought the ideas for income streams we good and spent hours talking about them with me only disregard them, is exactly what a covert narcissist does. That's exactly what she used to do - the jury is still out on this one. I feel that this is the truth as I have lived it, seen it and experienced it for myself. I always got the feeling when I had a vertigo attack that she wasn't really bothered. Even though she used to comfort me a bit, she never really used to 'comfort' me, if you see what I mean. I have always felt that I have been alone but with her present.

Also sex. A narcissist will approach you for sex on their terms and give signals if they didn't want your advances. Again, exactly the same. She used to grab her Kindle while getting in to bed and the only times she wanted sex was when she wanted a cuddle. Over time cuddle = sex, whereas before this it was nice just to have a cuddle and drift off to sleep.

That's just my thoughts.......

I agree that her character is lacking integrity, honesty and empathy. Taking somebody you know intimately and have been sharing a bed with for 19+ years and then just sh!t on them from a great height and purposely try to grind them into the ground via their solicitor. I know I shouldn't wonder, but I do. I wonder if she is worried that I'm on to her, that her credibility with her work colleague may get slightly damaged when she uncovers her activity, or if she simply doesn't care? I do wonder that, because if I was on the receiving end of the filing that my lawyer put in to the court that laid everything out bit by bit and in perfect order, I wold be extremely worried. But I digress....

Thrive! Yeah that's what I intend to do. I have to change my mindset at the moment as I'm worried about running out of money or choosing the wrong place to live. I suppose that's tough and I need to make the best out of wherever I move to. I know that if I was in the US I'd grab an RV and live in that, go wandering around the US (if you still can - head down to Texas!). Here I could do the same but the country is much smaller, which is a shame. The stbxw and I were looking at getting a motorhome and going touring around europe. Again she was all up for it but then nothing. Good job we didn't though as the borders closed up!!

Creating and income is going to be the big one for me and something that I am both looking forward to and dreading at the same time, simply because of the timescales, money runs out when you don't top it up, but then that could be the "timer to success". I do hate this feeling of having to start again from scratch at 55, I suppose that is a fear. The good thing is though that I have nobody holding me back now, only me. Whereas before I was waiting for the wife to work with me all the time, but she wouldn't - she disregarded things, like a narcissist.

I am convinced but I'm probably wrong...but I don't think I am you know.

I've got another 40 houses to investigate tomorrow. It's supposed to be hot here all day so I'll stay inside and do that, then I can call the agents on Monday. I feel so overwhelmed with it all. The wife said in her letter from her lawyer to mine, that I should have started looking for a cheaper place to live from the day she left and that I had had plenty of time to find somewhere. Nice. That narcissistic thinking again - I'm sure I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Thornton
The others are right, face your reality, and use it as fuel to move forward. You will probably vacillate between sadness and anger for some time, so expect that to happen.

Exactly this! I am using it as fuel, I did yesterday and yes I'm sad and overwhelmed today. But the good thing is, even though I still feel slightly panicky, my body hasn't shaked or trembled for almost 2 days now, whereas before I have been shaking and trembling since the day before she left, why? This is only since I have found out about the money that was stolen - this means I have had a mindset shift at some level. Gotta be good, right?

Thank you all for your encouragement, it means a lot.

I shall see if I can stomach watching Sex/Lives now, give me something else to chat about maybe!

smile
Originally Posted by smilie
I never thought that I could ever stop loving her. Even when she left I still loved her, but now I found out what she's been up to and been planning on leaving me penniless and not caring anything about it, those feelings are gone and it's left a huge gaping hole.

Smilie, you may find your love for her again when you're past the angry/demonizing phase. In any event, whatever daily loving acts you were doing for her, now do for yourself. E.g., cook yourself gourmet meals. That's how you fill the gap. You redirect the love elsewhere. You could also do random acts of kindness.

Originally Posted by smilie
I am convinced but I'm probably wrong...but I don't think I am you know. I was waiting ..

Demon or not demon, it's over now, so no more waiting? (:
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
I never thought that I could ever stop loving her. Even when she left I still loved her, but now I found out what she's been up to and been planning on leaving me penniless and not caring anything about it, those feelings are gone and it's left a huge gaping hole.

Smilie, you may find your love for her again when you're past the angry/demonizing phase.

I'm sure it's there somewhere between the hopelessness and loneliness. If I think of her how she was - how we were - I can still feel a bit of it in that moment. The question is, could I love her again - would I want to love her again? She has broken my heart as much as it can be and the worst it has ever felt in my entire life and for some reason she keeps digging that knife in further at every given opportunity, fighting against everything so that the courts need to decide, because in true style for her, she can't. She could never make a decision and always looked to me to be the one to decide - so who's making the decisions that she seems to be making now? Perhaps she is and that's why all she's got is lies to pin up her side of the argument. It is plain to see in everything written by her lawyer. I has to come crashing down around her as lies are not truth, so then what? More lashing out at me, more digging that knife in further to push responsibility on to me? Will she rewrite history and turn me in to some violent drunk of a husband who was always shouting at her and degrading her? Or will it be something else, anything else to take focus off her?

Originally Posted by smilie
I am convinced but I'm probably wrong...but I don't think I am you know. I was waiting ..

Demon or not demon, it's over now, so no more waiting? (:
Is this the person she really is or is this the person she has become for some particular reason or under the influence of another? It's soul destroying just thinking that I no longer know who she is and I have never witnessed this before in her not to any degree. I won't wait for anything any longer. Truth be told (and you all probably know this anyway as I seem to be able to be read like a book), I have been waiting to see if she got in contact, hoping that she would. But I know that she won't give up the lifestyle she now has to come back to the crap one we had. Although I would like to think that she would come back to the person who the person who she knew really loved her, would do anything for her and the person that would give their life for her in a split second.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
In any event, whatever daily loving acts you were doing for her, now do for yourself. E.g., cook yourself gourmet meals. That's how you fill the gap. You redirect the love elsewhere. You could also do random acts of kindness.

It's as much as I can do at the moment to cook basic meals, I can't concentrate on anything else. My focus is on finding a place to live and I don't know why it seems so hard. It's because I don't know the areas and not sure where would be best for me and I haven't got the time to go and look around them with such little time. I am worried about this that it is on my mind all day long. She will probably cancel the internet here anytime instead of just allowing me to change to my bank details. She has been asked by my lawyer to supply online account logins so I can do just that and she has ignored that request. It's in the hands of the courts now.

So, I'm aware that I'm waffling. I typed some of my journal yesterday. I sat in the pub as it was cool in there and type up what had been going on to get it out of my head. I started writing it at the start of all this, but for some reason I stopped for a couple of weeks. There is lots to do to fill in the gaps. It was a good distraction, but I'm still on my own down there. People are strange and just keep themselves to themselves. The world has change over the past few months, people have changed.

However! I SHALL take your advice. I need to cook a few meals as I have to use the food in the freezer before I move. I have to go through the recipes for the slow cooker and find a couple of nice ones. this is all I can do at the moment. My concentration span is about 10 minutes and I'm forcing myself to push through that, but it's hard. The only time I can spend more than that seems to be when I'm typing here, or my journal, or approving documents for my lawyer. I can't eat too much as I feel sick the entire time and I can't stomach much. It's just a shame there wasn't a DB video chat function, wouldn't need to type so much.

I get what you are saying though, and sorry for the long response, I need to spend some more time focusing on me and I am doing that, but not taking the time to enjoy anything. The best thing I can do for me is to go and sit in the park and read a book for an hour or so. I did this last evening and got some chips. I mowed the lawn also and saw all the vegetables that I planted all passed their best now. What was the point of maintaining these when I have to leave? What was the point in growing them all in the first place? Why did she let me do that when she knew she was going all along? It was a total waste of money and waste of time. Before I did that, I discussed with her whether we wold be here for another year, otherwise it would be a waste of time. She said that we would. It is all heartbreaking as all the work I put into that was for us and a few short weeks later she was gone.

Onwards and upwards though! I know you will say that I am focusing on her still and trying to make sense of this, but I don't feel that I am. I just look at the things I have done this year to make a better life for us, save some money by growing our own food and do something more to contribute. It seems like it was all for nothing and just a distraction while she was stealing the money and planning to leave anyway.
I know a lot of you don't believe me when I say that I think that my wife is a covert narcissist. But her behaviour is exactly what is described here in the video by Kim Saeed:

The Dark Triad - Are We Gaslighting Ourselves About Narcissism?

- Lack of Empathy
- Willing to see you suffer and destroy you without flinching
- Multiple Targets - Me, OM, Partner woman at her work
- Grooming OM prior to leaving me. etc.

This entire video is exactly my experience and yes it has WW parts of it, but she's taken all the savings, pushing blame on to me suggesting that I'm not "willing" to work, has systematically depleted our savings and/or transferred them elsewhere, is doing everything in her power not to supply spousal maintenance, has been cold, calculated and systematic in her execution. Even spending money on the garden and letting me do all that work growing and planting veg knowing that she was going and that it would all be a waste of time and money. I knew she didn't seem very interested in it, now I know why!


There is also another video explaining Covert Narcissism (I've started the link where the signs start):

Covert Narcissim

1. Something empty inside them. I've felt this. The feeling of lack of closeness for one. I would grab her and give her a squidge, but she never used to do anything like that with me. Never pinched my bum or showed any impulsive form of affection. Also no emotion behind their word, especially in a heart-to-heart or argument. She kept straight and showed not one bit of emotion at all, like one would expect. She very rarely cried and if she did. it wasn't for long - she didn't even cry the day her mum died. Feel like she was going through the motions, being impersonal - this is how sex felt, like I was just there to supply the part that she required. No feelings of closeness, kisses, hugs, etc. She used to go 'inside herself'. I always thought that was strange since day 1 and just got used to it I suppose.

2. Aloof. As above, no displays of affection towards me - ever, unless I instigated. Same bed, same sofa, but she never came for a cuddle watching TV, always kept her personal space. If I approached for a cuddle she would, but then that was it - unless she wanted sex.

3. Feeling belittled. I felt that I was less than her as I couldn't work. I wanted to cook the meals each day for when she came home from work, but she said no as it would be too early. She then used to do it and wouldn't let me help. Every time! Then she can say to others that I don't help cook. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing and that she knew best and I trusted that and then she capitaliazes on that. When we used to go to her work do's, I used to feel like I was standing in her shadow, even though I could start and hold conversation with everybody else, I felt that I was there to prop her up and that she viewed me as lower than her as I didn't work (rather than her equal) - and all of her work colleagues probably knew it, so they could think of me as a lazy git.

4. Emotional Starvation. Feeling alone in the relationship, like she is doing her thing and I'm doing mine. She never wanted to work on things together even though she said she did. Feeling changed as soon as we got married - as soon as. No sex for 3 days after wedding, not even on wedding night. Off on honeymoon next day, so "need to get sleep". It was only me that suggested going anywhere, only me that gave her a hug (unless in bed and she wanted sex), only me that suggested going out for a drink or a meal. She gladly accepted, but the suggestions were always mine.

5. Passive-Aggressiveness. <- This. Didn't talk much though, although very short on action - used to say she wanted to start business together, but didn't act and disregarded the idea until I raised it again. She never did. Didn't argue with me. Always agreed with my ideas & suggestions - even my mates wife said this the year we got married, that she always agreed with what I said, wanted to do, or ideas.

6. Repelled by Sexual Advances. Never really saw this, but she used to ensure that she acted in such a way as to "send the message" that she wasn't interested in sex - always the Kindle! When she didn't grab the Kindle and wanted a hug, that was 'code' for she wanted sex. Every time. She never wanted to talk about our sex life.


Everything this lady says is/was my wife ... everything. The love-bombing stage was for the first few years and died down when we started to arrange the wedding.

Is it that WW or MLC behaviour is exactly the same as narcissism, or is she actually a covert narcissist?

So am I getting it wrong? Yes I'm still trying to work stuff out, but I am interested what others see here, as I think that this is the case. Not that it matters anymore, but the behaviours described in both of these videos almost fit my wife like a glove.
I see a LBS in pain and anger demonizing their WAS and not taking responsibility for their own choices. I get finding empathy for your WAS is a bit much at the moment. Where I would try to curb your behavior is where you spend time mind-reading her motivations. I would also not invest so much energy into negative things that could happen. Do some basic preparation, but focus most on what’s actually happening. Good luck!
Let’s say she is a narcissist. Now what? What are you going to do about it?
Let’s talk backup planning.

It makes sense that your STBXW having moved out and moved on may not want to continue spending her income on your Internet. A reasonable guess is your access will end when the next billing cycle hits. You asked for the passwords and she declined. I doubt giving you more control would make her life easier.

A reasonable backup plan would be “Hey neighbor/landlord, I’ve been having Internet issues. If I get cut off may I use yours for a couple of hours?” A backup plan just needs to ensure you’re not dead in the water. You don’t need to go as far as switching over or choosing the best antenna for that “what if” scenario now. You can wait until it happens to invest that time, energy, and money. That’s better invested now in finding a new place.

A month ago my car was having issues. I knew I had to get to a certain work appointment even if my car broke down. I called a rental shop, and asked if they had cars tomorrow. They said they did. That was good enough. The next day, my car did break down. I did not actually end up using the rental shop. It was just a back up plan to know I wasn’t dead in the water. I ended up negotiating a start time for the appointment one hour later. I ended up negotiating a time to get my car running that was three hours earlier. It cost less than the rental fee. But I did not need to negotiate that ahead of time. That would’ve been a waste of energy if my car has been fine.
I did the same thing, Smilie.

I just couldn’t reconcile why my ex left me. I needed a reason so I started reading up on personality disorders, and like you, I noticed some similarities in my ex.

I would feel better for a while because now I could point the finger. And it felt better for me to be the victim for some reason.

It’s been almost 2 years of no contact for me since we split up. And looking back, I think doing all that work trying to diagnose her did nothing for me. It took the focus off of my own healing.

So even if your ex is a narcissist, it doesn’t change the past. And since we can’t change the past (and I’m assuming you would not want to get back with a narcissist), that only leaves you in the present.

What can you do today to make tomorrow better? Stay focused on you.
I’m sorry you’re going through this and doing everything you can to find a reason and understand. But the bottom line is even if she tells you it doesn’t mean she isn’t lying. You’ll never know what really happened. It could be she never cared to she got burned out on the marriage and the feeling of having everything on her shoulders. To anything in between. At the end of the day she left, at the end of the day for now it’s over. And the whys do not matter.

What matters is how are you going to heal from this? How are you going to handle the new obstacles that you will face. Are you going to sit around and spend the next year trying to figure this out until you give up and then start trying to heal and move on? Or are you going to start now?

As hard as it is for you to accept (and trust me I understand and we’ve all been there) for now it’s over. Focus on you. Focus on what part you may have played in it so you can be a better person for the next relationship if you choose to have one. Focus on making sure you are ok and will be ok. Focus on what you can do to have some fun. Do you have any family or friends you could reconnect with? What hobbies were you interested in before you were married? Could you read, do puzzles, color, paint, build model cars? Maybe you could learn a new skill.

Please try to remember, it doesn’t matter why she’s turned into this. It doesn’t matter if she’s always been this way. It doesn’t matter if she’s a narcissist or the kindest person in the world. Because it doesn’t change your situation. Only you can change your situation and you are and can be responsible for your happiness.
S,

I read in a book once that a dumpee will try to diagnose the dumper with MLC, NDP etc so they can convince themselves that they can still love them because they are not in their right mind. If they were they would certainly never do this to the dumpee.

I have gotten flack in the past for calling WS $hitty people and have since then rethought it and changed it to selfish people.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Let’s say she is a narcissist. Now what? What are you going to do about it?

Nothing, I'm just wondering - that's all. Not trying to pass blame in the least. I just wondered if there was a possibility.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I see a LBS in pain and anger demonizing their WAS and not taking responsibility for their own choices. I get finding empathy for your WAS is a bit much at the moment. Where I would try to curb your behavior is where you spend time mind-reading her motivations. I would also not invest so much energy into negative things that could happen. Do some basic preparation, but focus most on what’s actually happening. Good luck!

In pain, yes - anger? Not so much. I am taking responsibility for my own choices, of course. I am just trying to understand the likelihood, not to portion blame. Please don't get me wrong here. I like to try to understand as much as I can about stuff, especially so that I know how to recognise these types of things again. It's so hard trying to come across properly in text. I must be coming across really bad..... frown

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Internet. She hasn't declined to supply the information, just hasn't supplied it.

I can't understand why she hasn't as I could then change the bank details to come from my account, therefore I won't lose internet. It would make her life easier as she then hasn't got to deal with it. It is my belief that she is purposely going to cancel stuff with no notice - which is a very nasty thing to do and controlling.

I went to have a chat with my neighbour and they have gone away on holiday it would seem - which is a pain. I don't know when the next billing cycle is as they can't give me any information as I can't get past the security questions on the account. Apparently I am named on the account, but they won't give me access. I shall have to wait to see what the courts decide now. I can always go to the pub, but I do a lot of my stuff in the evenings and I need a big screen. I shall do what I can for now.

Just finished shortlisting properties. Not too sure about the areas as I've never been, but doesn't look too bad on the internet. There's 5 all around the same area (after after just over a 4 hour drive). I shall call the agents tomorrow see how the ground lies. All the procedures here in the UK seemed to have changed and now you need to apply after you've seen the property, rather than just say "Yeah, I'll take it".
Originally Posted by Thornton
I did the same thing, Smilie.

I just couldn’t reconcile why my ex left me. I needed a reason so I started reading up on personality disorders, and like you, I noticed some similarities in my ex.

I would feel better for a while because now I could point the finger. And it felt better for me to be the victim for some reason.

What can you do today to make tomorrow better? Stay focused on you.

It's not my intention to point fingers. I'm looking back over our relationship and noticing these tendencies. I'm not saying that it would be her fault or anything, but it would just give me a better understanding of maybe why she exhibited that type of behaviour. If not narcissistic, then what? I can't just accept that somebody can treat somebody they have lived with for 19 years and been married to in such a crazy and appalling manner and as if they are their worst enemy in the world, when I have treated her really well. It's the way she seems to absolutely hate my guts and wants to go out of her way to grind me into the ground - that is what I am trying to understand.

I get that maybe I am coming across like I'm playing the victim, but I don't feel that I am. I just cannot understand this emotionally violent behaviour when I have never known her to be like that in the 21 years that I've known her or in the 19 years we have been together. It's like I mistreated her really badly. Crazy.
The time and energy figuring out if she is or is not a narcissist could be spent on self improvement and coming up with a financial protection plan .
Originally Posted by JosephS
Please try to remember, it doesn’t matter why she’s turned into this. It doesn’t matter if she’s always been this way. It doesn’t matter if she’s a narcissist or the kindest person in the world. Because it doesn’t change your situation. Only you can change your situation and you are and can be responsible for your happiness.

You are right in what you say. I just can't let go of trying to understand.

I do have things to do, but I can't settle and do hobbies when I need to pack up the house and find a place to move to. I'm worried about money also, as there's a lot I have to sort out.

My main focus is to find a place to live and I have also been thinking about what I may do to bring in an income. That will be my hobby. I will have digital products to make, coursework to create and websites to design I would think. I am committed to building something within the next year that can start bringing in an income someway.

I have a couple of mates but they are not local to me. I feel isolated and alone here. It's a very small town with nothing going on in it and nobody about.. There are no groups or clubs, it's murder being here being a tiny rural town. The people are sot of friendly enough but keep themselves to themselves. On the whole nobody will do anything for anybody, so it's hard to ask for help as nobody is interested. I tapped on my neighbour's door and had a chat about the internet yesterday - he just said "Oh dear". The good thing about it is, is that it's out of the way, but the facilities are rubbish. We only moved here to be near my wife's work and so she could walk to work or go on the train - 10 mins walk away.

To be completely honest, I am finding this really tough doing this all on my own. I have asked 4 people for help now, 2 friends, 1 neighbour and a guy and his wife that are in a group that meets on a Sunday for a chat - this was set up in lock-down as people felt isolated. I have had nobody offer their help, so it's still just me on my own so sort out so much stuff all at the same time - divorce, legal battle for maintenance & online account info, finding a house to live in in a different area, sorting out stuff to pack or sell or leave behind - there is her stuff there also.

I'm worried and I think that's natural and it doesn't help that my confidence has been ripped to shreds and my self-esteem along with it.

But you're right, none of it changes my situation and it's that I need to focus on and sort out somehow.
Originally Posted by LH19
I read in a book once that a dumpee will try to diagnose the dumper with MLC, NDP etc so they can convince themselves that they can still love them because they are not in their right mind. If they were they would certainly never do this to the dumpee.

I have gotten flack in the past for calling WS $hitty people and have since then rethought it and changed it to selfish people.

Interesting concept. I don't feel that this is what I'm doing. I don't need to convince myself that I can still love her and I'm not sure what gain I would get from doing that. I also agree that based on my wife she seems to be an extremely selfish person. It really is like she is under some form of wicked spell.
Originally Posted by smilie
I know a lot of you don't believe me when I say that I think that my wife is a covert narcissist. But her behaviour is exactly what is described here in the video by Kim Saeed:

The Dark Triad - Are We Gaslighting Ourselves About Narcissism?

- Lack of Empathy
- Willing to see you suffer and destroy you without flinching
- Multiple Targets - Me, OM, Partner woman at her work
- Grooming OM prior to leaving me. etc.

This entire video is exactly my experience and yes it has WW parts of it, but she's taken all the savings, pushing blame on to me suggesting that I'm not "willing" to work, has systematically depleted our savings and/or transferred them elsewhere, is doing everything in her power not to supply spousal maintenance, has been cold, calculated and systematic in her execution. Even spending money on the garden and letting me do all that work growing and planting veg knowing that she was going and that it would all be a waste of time and money. I knew she didn't seem very interested in it, now I know why!


There is also another video explaining Covert Narcissism (I've started the link where the signs start):

Covert Narcissim

1. Something empty inside them. I've felt this. The feeling of lack of closeness for one. I would grab her and give her a squidge, but she never used to do anything like that with me. Never pinched my bum or showed any impulsive form of affection. Also no emotion behind their word, especially in a heart-to-heart or argument. She kept straight and showed not one bit of emotion at all, like one would expect. She very rarely cried and if she did. it wasn't for long - she didn't even cry the day her mum died. Feel like she was going through the motions, being impersonal - this is how sex felt, like I was just there to supply the part that she required. No feelings of closeness, kisses, hugs, etc. She used to go 'inside herself'. I always thought that was strange since day 1 and just got used to it I suppose.

2. Aloof. As above, no displays of affection towards me - ever, unless I instigated. Same bed, same sofa, but she never came for a cuddle watching TV, always kept her personal space. If I approached for a cuddle she would, but then that was it - unless she wanted sex.

3. Feeling belittled. I felt that I was less than her as I couldn't work. I wanted to cook the meals each day for when she came home from work, but she said no as it would be too early. She then used to do it and wouldn't let me help. Every time! Then she can say to others that I don't help cook. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing and that she knew best and I trusted that and then she capitaliazes on that. When we used to go to her work do's, I used to feel like I was standing in her shadow, even though I could start and hold conversation with everybody else, I felt that I was there to prop her up and that she viewed me as lower than her as I didn't work (rather than her equal) - and all of her work colleagues probably knew it, so they could think of me as a lazy git.

4. Emotional Starvation. Feeling alone in the relationship, like she is doing her thing and I'm doing mine. She never wanted to work on things together even though she said she did. Feeling changed as soon as we got married - as soon as. No sex for 3 days after wedding, not even on wedding night. Off on honeymoon next day, so "need to get sleep". It was only me that suggested going anywhere, only me that gave her a hug (unless in bed and she wanted sex), only me that suggested going out for a drink or a meal. She gladly accepted, but the suggestions were always mine.

5. Passive-Aggressiveness. <- This. Didn't talk much though, although very short on action - used to say she wanted to start business together, but didn't act and disregarded the idea until I raised it again. She never did. Didn't argue with me. Always agreed with my ideas & suggestions - even my mates wife said this the year we got married, that she always agreed with what I said, wanted to do, or ideas.

6. Repelled by Sexual Advances. Never really saw this, but she used to ensure that she acted in such a way as to "send the message" that she wasn't interested in sex - always the Kindle! When she didn't grab the Kindle and wanted a hug, that was 'code' for she wanted sex. Every time. She never wanted to talk about our sex life.


Everything this lady says is/was my wife ... everything. The love-bombing stage was for the first few years and died down when we started to arrange the wedding.

Is it that WW or MLC behaviour is exactly the same as narcissism, or is she actually a covert narcissist?

So am I getting it wrong? Yes I'm still trying to work stuff out, but I am interested what others see here, as I think that this is the case. Not that it matters anymore, but the behaviours described in both of these videos almost fit my wife like a glove.


Focus. Off. Her.

Focus. On. You.
Originally Posted by smilie

Interesting concept. I don't feel that this is what I'm doing. I don't need to convince myself that I can still love her and I'm not sure what gain I would get from doing that. I also agree that based on my wife she seems to be an extremely selfish person. It really is like she is under some form of wicked spell.


Try to read this response completely objectively. As if someone else wrote it. Would you say the poster was focusing on themselves? Or on their WAS?
Getting geeky, for your definition of covert narcissism, you linked to diagnostic criteria from "Kim Saeedi". Her website gave no info on her credentials to propose those as diagnostic criteria. Google says she has a BS in Education. Dr Craig Malkin has a doctorate in clinical psychology, is a licensed therapist, and teaches psychology at Harvard Medical. He says a covert narcissist is a subtype of a narcissist and as such, the first step is to see if someone meets all the criteria for being a narcissist (DSM V). If that's too dry/dense to read and understand, there's "Dimensional Conceptualization and Diagnosis of NPD".

Your next steps are the same whether or not she's a narcissist or simply going through a selfish phase after years of resentment. Diagnosis would only matter if you both were interested in reconciliation.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Focus. Off. Her.

Focus. On. You.


Originally Posted by SteveLW
Try to read this response completely objectively. As if someone else wrote it. Would you say the poster was focusing on themselves? Or on their WAS?

Yeah, point(s) taken. Hard though, as that's where my brain wants to go.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Thanks for that and your comments makes sense, of course.


I think I've got it now - finally - sort me.. it's so difficult also as the past 19 years I've been putting her first. I shall work on redirecting my thoughts.

Thanks for the kick op the jacksie! smile
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Focus. Off. Her.

Focus. On. You.


Originally Posted by SteveLW
Try to read this response completely objectively. As if someone else wrote it. Would you say the poster was focusing on themselves? Or on their WAS?

Yeah, point(s) taken. Hard though, as that's where my brain wants to go.



This is usually a sign you aren't keeping busy. GAL is crucial, otherwise you'll sit and stew in the juices of your sitch.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is usually a sign you aren't keeping busy. GAL is crucial, otherwise you'll sit and stew in the juices of your sitch.

No, I'm keeping busy looking for a place to live. It's all I seem to do and then go out for an hour to get some fresh air! I haven't got time for anything else.
This isn't emotionally violent. This is her doing what in her best interest without any consideration for you. Emotionally violent would have involved years of emotional manipulation that would've allowed you to just simply hand the money over to her vs her trying to walk away with it. Or spending night and day telling you what a worthless, stupid cow you are. Which isn't happening. My stbxw is doing everything in her power to hurt me and I don't understand. My stbxw is doing so many things out of character and I don't understand. <- that's what's happening. Stop trying to understand. None of us "understand" fully what happened. Most of us who get some clarity had to remove ourselves from the situation and detach before we could see the picture in it's whole context. You can keep grasping at straws or you can take a few deep breaths and resign to the fact that you will know why this is happening in due time, but right now is not that time.

You are hurt, I completely understand that. We've all been there, but I hate to break it to you, contrary to your belief currently what you dealing with is neither unique or case specific. I've recommended this to other newbies who are just emotionally dumping and what feels very much like grasping at anything to keep them afloat. Go read other people's threads. Dig through the archives. In stead of researching and researching on what could possibly be wrong stbxw start reading what other's have gone through. The realizations they had to make. The control they had to let go of. Go read and read and read and see how not alone you are. Go see how common this is. Go see how in all honestly your stbxw is not the worst we've seen by far.

It's incredibly common in the process to go from blaming everything on yourself to blaming everything on her. We've all gone through it. But like I've told you before the likelihood that she's actually the narcissist or the sociopath that you'd like her to be is beyond slim. She like all humans are capable of narcissistic behavior. Selfish acts. Behaving irrationally. Does that make her a narcissist? No. It makes her human. You can continue to demonize her. You could continue down the rabbit hole of where you went wrong and all the crappy behavior you missed, but that's only a part of the picture and you know that. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of your perception and hers. This is an exercise in futility. You are only hurting yourself spiraling like this.

I think you're time could be better spend researching how to deal with bouts of anxiety and stress. There are even articles out there that are geared for people going through separation and divorce. If you can't focus on spiritual, mental and emotional growth right now how about managing your emotions and mental health? Let's start at the base. Your time is better spent on self care than it is in trying to diagnose your stbxw. That will always be the case.

As far the centering goes, this is all very raw. You are technically the victim here, you were abandoned and rather unceremoniously. You're allowed to have a pity party, and you're allowed to invite whomever you'd like. This is a sh!t situation, you're welcome to wallow. We all did. The issue is everyone is worried that it isn't so much a party with time limits and parameters as much as it's going to become a state of being for you. That it's been a state of being for you. That you don't see any other possible perspectives here.

Get some distance from this. Don't let it consume you. If you have to drown yourself in books or music or soapy television or gaming. What ever works for you. Work on detachment. Work on focusing on you. Take a hot shower. Get something in your stomach and try to get some sleep tonight. It really does feel like the world is collapsing around you, I know, we all know, but I can assure it's not. You will come out of this better than you were before it even started. That's the point of all this.
WF, is dead on here. smilie, when these things happen they cause us to question EVERYTHING. Especially with the rewriting of history that the WAS does to justify their actions. In my sitch, my W had never been happy a day of our MR (according to her on BD). Now, I knew this was patently untrue and I could name dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of instances where I knew she was truly happy throughout the almost 19 years of our MR to that point.

BUT, her claiming that made me start to question if it was true or not. Maybe she wasn't happy at all from the time we started dating, through to getting married, being newlyweds, traveling together, working on our house together, getting pregnant and having our D, etc, etc, etc.

So yes her behavior right now has you questioning the basis for your relationship this whole time. Howeever, WF puts it beautifully: "I think you're time could be better spend researching how to deal with bouts of anxiety and stress."

BAM, there it is. This is what I was trying to get you to see with my GAL comment. You claim you are keeping busy, that you have time for nothing else, but then you post long posts on narcissism and how it is exactly what your STBXW is. So what? Even if she is a sociopathic psychopath, what does that change? In fact, the more you diagnose her the more it just proves that you should be spending every minute of every day trying to get on with your life, move forward, and stop fixating so much on her and what she is doing.
Originally Posted by smilie
This isn't emotionally violent. This is her doing what in her best interest without any consideration for you. [T]he likelihood that she's actually the narcissist or the sociopath that you'd like her to be is beyond slim.

smilie, another solid post by wayfarer. I agree with her 110%.
I know you are all right - thank you. You keep re-enforcing what you are saying and I really appreciate it as it allows me to see from different perspectives.

I have been reading others posts here for a while now and I see how common this situation is. There is so much pain and anguish in all that I have read here on the forum and you guys give out so much wealth from your experience. It's difficult to search for posts and for some reason I can only search for the past 3 months using the search function, so if it's possible to point to anything that may be similar or worse, than my situation I would welcome the read.

As far as my stbxw is concerned, I am still in disbelief at her change of actions. If this is truly just an act of selfishness, then it has to be one of the worst extremes of it that I have witnessed in anybody in my entire lifetime. Yes, if I had been a b@stard husband I could have fully understood her actions, but I wasn't and in my mind I haven't deserved anything that she's dished out, seemingly for no reason. I do not like and will never like the changes that I have seen in her. She is obviously that person deep down and will therefore play out those characteristics again at a later stage, but they have either been hidden since I've known her, or she has established them in recent years. I know that it's not about me.....

Wayfarer has such a compassionate way of writing that hammers things home. I really wish that I could spend the time GALing more. I have so much on my mind to get sorted out that I haven't got the time to concentrate on anything else too much, but I do. I spend an hour each day at lunchtime in the park reading - to learn, to relax while having lunch, to unwind as much as I can. It's like I'm working a full-time job at the moment and my head feels the worst it has in years due to my condition being triggered by too much stress, wearing reading glasses for too long and sitting in one spot on the PC searching for houses.

Detaching I can see is the goal here and I just wish there was a switch in my mind to switch that on, just like there seemed to be a switch in hers that kicked in this sudden change of behaviour. GAL is part of the detaching process I would assume. I am in the process of trying to build a new life somewhere else and I don't seem to be getting anywhere too fast and there is lot of red tape to go look at houses - they can't confirm with the landlord if they would accept a year payment up front as I can't show an income, until I have had a credit check. I can't get a credit check until I have submitted an application and I can't submit an application until I have had a viewing of the property - seeing as they don't do virtual viewings, I have to drive almost 300 miles there and another 300 back, just to look around a house. It's madness, especially in 2021, but maybe it's part of GAL? Not sure if I'm staying up there as I don't want to pay too much for a hotel, but I do wonder if a night away would do me good - I don't fancy it alone though.

Stress and Anxiety is the hard bit. I've had a day and a half where things have been a bit better, then like a high-speed train it hits you, with the piston in my chest firing at full speed ahead and making my body feel weird. Yes I need to get a handle on that and I do try. Speaking to people helps calm it down. I can try deep breathing until I'm blue in the face but it triggers my neurology and makes me spin. I shall have to do more research to get a different method as I cannot even force myself to sit still for any more than 10 minutes. I was meditating at the beginning of all this when she first left, but when she said she had somebody else and then as time's gone by and all the other things have been uncovered, it's no use. Now she's admitted adultery, I can't close my eyes for a second in silence before images of her and some OM come flashing on the screen in my mind. I've had my 3rd Hypnotherapy session tonight, it's helping.

Yes I am hurt and it feels like I'm in some sort of dissociated virtual reality and walking around in a daze and other people's live's just continue to go on around me as if I wasn't there. I sit and watch as couples spend time together, people are with their children or sitting with their friend chatting about stuff. It feels like I'm on the outside looking in - I've never felt like that before, I've never felt so alone. Even the town I am in isn't familiar as I've only been here a small amount of time and that makes the hurt, hurt worse.

The rewriting history bit that SteveLW mentions, and various other people also, I am seeing unfolding in-front of my very eyes - and it does unfold. It starts small and gets bigger and more elaborate as time goes on, as does any lie.

I don't want to blame and that's not my intention, understanding is but as you say I won't be able to .. not yet and that's the part that I can't/don't want to accept, but I must as I know it's true. Trying to make sense out of something you can't make sense out of, is senseless - if that makes sense? And I can see it's futile.

What makes it worse is this condition I have. The stress makes it so much worse and when it's that bad I find it hard to move around too much. My brain feels like it's being clamped in a vice and spun in a washing machine, my neck is really uncomfortable, my eyes are so blurry and my tinnitus is excruciatingly loud. It hasn't been this bad for a couple of years and it's made worse by stress, as the engagement of the limbic system pushes it into overdrive. As far as my hormones are concerned - who knows - all I know is that the tumour on my pituitary gland makes them go weird when stressed. It has also been responsible for decreasing my sex drive and probably makes me feel fatigued a lot of the time - and that's probably part of the problem I face now. It's a shame I've got this as it makes things so much harder. It would be nice to see the back of it one day.

"Get some distance, you say?", well.....Here's the good bit:

I have arranged to go and see a couple of potential properties about 260 miles away or so (4.5 hours). It's in a colder part of the country which is a shame as I have lived in one of the best parts of the UK all of my life and I dislike the cold, but it's much too expensive to live here and too close to my stbxw's work places (scattered all over the county 30 mins - an hour in every direction), plus wherever she is living, which I don't have a clue. I don't want to risk bumping in to her/them as I know it would kill me and I don't want to keep looking around or getting tempted to just "pass by" her work - not that I would and I haven't yet (well I have but not specifically for 'that' reason), but I don't want to be in that position. Moving away will be a clean break and if it's the wrong area, then I'll have an entire year to find the right one. So I have arranged this for Thursday.

I have also had a rough quote on removal costs as I can't do it on my own and it was cheaper than I thought too! They also pack for you, but I shall do most of that anyway.

A woman I was speaking to on Sunday told me that there was a clothing sale at an outdoor shop just outside of town and the savings were up to 70%. I thought that things would be expensive anyway, but I went up to have a look. I got over £200 of clothes for under £70! 4 T-shirts, an autumn/winter jacket and a pair of casual trousers. All high quality branded stuff that I would never have brought before as they would have been out of my price range. The jacket alone was priced at £67 and was just £22.99. This is the first time I have been shopping for clothes on my own for 20 years and it was both lonely and quite refreshing - not having to ask anybody's opinion, no validation apart from my own to consider. Is this type of thing GAL? I think so and it made me feel nice having some clothes that fit, however few.

In a selfish way, part of me is glad that other people have travelled this road before me as they/you have been there and you know how it really is. They know the territory and what to expect. I respect that. It will have to get better though as I can't get any worse (I hope)?

Detaching is all well and good if there was a method to do it, but as I eluded to earlier, I guess it's just working on GAL and working on me. It will be nice when I can go out somewhere, for a walk or a drive and not have to wonder if I will bump into her or not. I don't want to. Even the girl in the coffee shop told me that my stbxw was in the other morning. She knows us. "Ah", I replied. Told her we split up, she asked why, I said she left me for another bloke. She couldn't believe it as "you always seemed really close", she said. "I thought so too", I replied. That was the end of that conversation - I want a different one. Too many memories, such a small town and I need to get away, as you said, put some distance between us ... it ... them.

Hopefully physical distance will turn into emotional distance and the scars can then begin to heal and detachment can really start to work its magick.

Sorry about another long post, it's taken me ages to write over the course of the day. But I just wanted to work through what has been shared. I know you are right, both of you ... all of you. I hear you all! I just couldn't see it as clear and now it's becoming slightly clearer. My focus is on finding a place to live and I think that this will be the turning point for me. I'm not like other people and it takes me a while to work through things since I've had this condition, so please forgive me if I'm coming across resistant. As wayfarer said, I'm just hurting.

Thank for all of your input and for listening. smile
Smilie,

I also want to reinforce what WF is saying. Stress is awful. Have you tried meditation at all? There are a number of free apps you can try that have very simple, short guided meditations that might help. Even just taking 10 deep breaths with your eyes closed when things start to feel hard could help. This helped me a LOT in my sitch. And it might help with your condition too-- my H used to get truly debilitating migraines and had to stop using the medication that really worked after his stroke (at age 35). He now immediately meditates for 15-30 minutes as soon as he gets his aura and it has really helped to manage the pain. I can't recall exactly what your condition is, but if you haven't tried meditation I would totally recommend it.

Another thing I did that helped me was the supplement 5-HTP. It helped me sleep and really did improve my mood. You might look into that.

Finally, it occurred to me as I was reading your list of covert narcissistic traits... dang, I'm going to guess that my H would have said check, check, check to most of those during the SSM phase of our M. I don't think I am a covert narcissist, though-- I also was feeling emotionally alone and like I had to do all the housework and physical touch was simply not my primary love language. Anyway, just another voice to suggest you stop trying to figure out what is wrong with your W and put all that enormous energy into healing yourself.
Waking Up is a really good guided meditation app. I think you get a few weeks free, then if you genuinely can't afford it, you can email the support team and they will give it to you free.
Smillie - i found the best therapy as people have said is to GAL!

i am an introvert by nature
i joined Meetup and signed up to 9 different groups around my area! i seem to be never home, my days off fly by! whatever you are prepared to put in to it - you will get out in heaps!

i have met some lovely people and socially away from the groups! nothing more than friends. talking about all sorts of subjects and interests! i know it will slow down during the winter - but hope i have found enough people to spend time with and who are happy to spend with me!
i am not looking for romance - i am looking for social interaction!

my STBXW is out there somewhere and i have got to the stage of i don't care what she is doing anymore - i am enjoying my life, and enjoying the freedom it has given me!

but you need to put effort in to get anything out!
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Waking Up is a really good guided meditation app. I think you get a few weeks free, then if you genuinely can't afford it, you can email the support team and they will give it to you free.

Argh! It doesn't work on my phone. Got an older one, hasn't got Google on it. Downloaded and older APK file and installed it, but it has issues when entering email address, so can't g et past that. Then it went to update and went straight to Google Play Store rather than update the app directly as my other apps do. I will search for another later. It's a shame.
Originally Posted by may22
I also want to reinforce what WF is saying. Stress is awful. Have you tried meditation at all? There are a number of free apps you can try that have very simple, short guided meditations that might help. Even just taking 10 deep breaths with your eyes closed when things start to feel hard could help. This helped me a LOT in my sitch. And it might help with your condition too--

Yes I have. I can't concentrate though and get images of my wife and OM. Guided meditations may be better.

Originally Posted by may22
my H used to get truly debilitating migraines and had to stop using the medication that really worked after his stroke (at age 35). He now immediately meditates for 15-30 minutes as soon as he gets his aura and it has really helped to manage the pain. I can't recall exactly what your condition is, but if you haven't tried meditation I would totally recommend it.

Wow, that's pants! Migraines are awful, however my condition isn't dependent on them and you don't ever need to have had a migraine to have Vestibular Migraine (VM)! Although I do get them sometimes. I also have a plethora of symptoms 24/7, mainly revolving around dizziness and it's fairly bad this morning after a stressful morning as my stbxw has cancelled my car insurance payment out of her bank, without prior notice and a subsequent conversation with my friend on the phone.

This is interesting though as how does meditating help migraine pain? Would you think there is an element of stress involved? I have always thought that my thing is repressed stress or something, however I also have a pituitary tumour, so don't know how that affects anything, if at all. Don't know how long it's been there as it only got picked up on a brain scan when investigating VM

Originally Posted by may22
Another thing I did that helped me was the supplement 5-HTP. It helped me sleep and really did improve my mood. You might look into that.

A while ago I got some L-Tryptophan as I heard that it can help with brain injuries. It's in powder for and I was told that if I haven't felt any different within 4 days, then it wouldn't be what I required. I've got an entire pot left so I took some this morning. I'll have a look at the 5-HTP as that's Hydroxy Tryptophan, whereas I only have the L-Tryptophan amino acid - not sure if there's a difference?

Originally Posted by may22
Finally, it occurred to me as I was reading your list of covert narcissistic traits... dang, I'm going to guess that my H would have said check, check, check to most of those during the SSM phase of our M. I don't think I am a covert narcissist, though-- I also was feeling emotionally alone and like I had to do all the housework and physical touch was simply not my primary love language. Anyway, just another voice to suggest you stop trying to figure out what is wrong with your W and put all that enormous energy into healing yourself.

Thank you for your input, it's nice that you have taken the time to share your experience. Yes, I think I am getting the message, firmly now, to just let it go.
I used to get migraines terribly. For years I had no cause for these. When I changed my diet and removed diet soda, my migraines went away. I didn't even realize it until a couple of years ago when Orange Vanilla Coke Zero came out and I started drinking it fairly regularly and the migraines returned. Stopped consuming it and haven't had a migraine since.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
I used to get migraines terribly. For years I had no cause for these. When I changed my diet and removed diet soda, my migraines went away. I didn't even realize it until a couple of years ago when Orange Vanilla Coke Zero came out and I started drinking it fairly regularly and the migraines returned. Stopped consuming it and haven't had a migraine since.

It's amazing how things affect our bodies, especially the processed stuff. I've tried a 2 year plant-based diet, plant-based tyramin-free diet, 7 day water fast, CBD oil, a range of vitamins & minerals used for meniers and even a 7-day water fast - twice! Absolutely none of these had any effect on my vestibular system or got rid of my dizziness, which is currently getting unbearable due to the stress I think. I also think that maybe the anti-depressants are also making it worse, although I can't tell for certain, but I just feel light-headed and weird all of the time now.

Hope I feel ok during the day, as I've got a long drive to look at a different area to live and 3 houses to look around tomorrow. This is the kind of thing 'we' would have done together, now I'm going solo - travelling, staying in a hotel, looking around the area, checking out houses - all the things I haven't done on my own now for a couple of decades since we've been together. It feels wierd just thinking about it.
Solo travel is a good test run for your new life, getting comfortable doing things on your own. It also provided me a serious sense of accomplishment doing things alone again.

Next make sure you let your care team know that you've basically been light headed and off feeling since you started those anti-depressants. There are sooooo many options out there now, there are other things you can try and should try that shouldn't have such an adverse effect on your body.

Fingers crossed on the housing situation. Good luck smilie!
Originally Posted by markw
Smillie - i found the best therapy as people have said is to GAL!

i am an introvert by nature
i joined Meetup and signed up to 9 different groups around my area! i seem to be never home, my days off fly by! whatever you are prepared to put in to it - you will get out in heaps!
...
but you need to put effort in to get anything out!

I agree that I need to make the effort. Meetup in my area is a pain as there's not anything about. I've always had this issue with meetup - there is absolutely nothing in my area. Neither was there ever anything in my previous are, or the area before that. I am currently away from home in a totally different area of the country and lo and behold, there is nothing in this area either. Everything seems to be limited to the larger towns.

This seems to be an issue with the UK on meetup perhaps? I don't know, but I've never found any group in my area and the best there seems to be are online groups, which doesn't really cut the mustard as I like to meet people.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with creating my own group at some stage, after I've moved perhaps......
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Solo travel is a good test run for your new life, getting comfortable doing things on your own. It also provided me a serious sense of accomplishment doing things alone again.

And isn't it amazing how out of practice you become? I've always been able to do stuff on my own and strike up conversations. In actually fact it's the one thing that the stbxw used to find ambarrassing to start with when we first got together. She doesn't have such social skills so relied on mine to start conversations with people, so it's something that I've always done. But, this doesn't stop me feeling self-conscious and then there's the sitting by yourself in the restaurant just staring into space or looking out of the window. Luckily I've had loads of stuff to write as I need to fill in the application for for my disability assessment now and the questions they ask are leading and try to force you into yes/no answers.

So I am noticing that I am fairly highly stressed at the moment and the slightest thing sends me of shaking. I was thinking about where I am. The town is rubbish and there's absolutely nothing to do, but it's by the seafront (not a tourist destination) and it's pretty rundown in places. But I am wondering if this could be a place just to spend a while to gain my bearings and build up me again. I have found a little house, 2 bedrooms and quite small, literally one minute walk from the promenade and although nothing special, it's within reach of various other places by road, train or bus. There's a big city about a 50 minute drive away or an 1hour 15min train ride away. It's certainly worth the thought, even if it's for just a year and it's 250 miles away from the stbxw and my situation - at least I'll have my own space and not need to worry about bumping into her and her new partner.

But I was thinking this morning that it was a crap place - and it is but it just may do as the rent is really cheap and that made me really panic and shake, as I was thinking that this has all been a waste of time and money and that I have got less time before I need to move and need to start all over again.

The only thing is, is that there is absolutely nothing to do. I even went up the town this evening to the bars to take a look around. Not one of them done food and there only people in them seemed to be older men! So that's pants. However, there are more shop here than where I live and even more cafe's (I think), there's also a larger choice of supermarket and there the option of walking along the prom, or course, not brilliant but a good hours walk.

The climate is much cooler - it was 29 where I live now and about 20-22 here. The wind off the sea is strong. There is also a golf course just over the road from the house and I have golf clubs! Haven't used them in a while.

I went to look at another house this afternoon 1pm that I had arranged before leaving home a couple of days back. I was waiting for the agent and noticed that they had sent me a text message while en-route, saying that the landlord had found a tenant and the meeting was cancelled. Typical, and the house look nice and the location was brilliant and felt nice. Then I contacted another agent and arranged a viewing of another house in a neighbouring town, which seemed quite nice and I really liked it, but there was nowhere to put a dining table, which for me is an issue. Furthermore, the local here (a taxi driver, bar man and a random couple I stopped along the seafront) all say that the place where this house is isn't nice and the one that seems the only one suitable is the best area.

If I take this house I will need to get rid of my large sofa though and get another one, or two.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Next make sure you let your care team know that you've basically been light headed and off feeling since you started those anti-depressants. There are sooooo many options out there now, there are other things you can try and should try that shouldn't have such an adverse effect on your body.

Fingers crossed on the housing situation. Good luck smilie!

The anti-depressants have actually been making me feel rather unwell and definately are interfering with my Vestibula symptoms. I didn't take one last night and I have felt much so better today. I have already shared my concerns with the doctor, but I shall go back and share them some more as it's stupid keeping carrying on. However, I will take one tonight as I can't just stop taking them in case there are repercussions.

All drugs seem to have an adverse effect on me since the start of this condition - even vitamin tablets and things. I remember taking magnesium tablets which made it worse, a B12 replacement which made it worse, CBD oil which made it worse, etc. Also my skin goes really salty and makes it feel smooth, including in my mouth. Sometimes it's so bad that it makes me gag. I went for a blood test the day I left to come here, so hopefully I shoul have some results back - I bet they find nothing ... as usual ... which is why I'm having so many problems trying to claim for disability. Time will tell.

I shall start a new thread when I get home tomorrow or over the weekend.
Originally Posted by smilie
But, this doesn't stop me feeling self-conscious and then there's the sitting by yourself in the restaurant just staring into space or looking out of the window.

My XGF and I were both comfortable eating alone in restaurants. If you enjoy something, why do it only when you have a partner with you? I probably would never go if it involved staring out into space! Some ideas--1) sit at the bar and strike up a conversation, 2) observe the decor, menu, scenery, and people, 3) bring a book, laptop, or something else to do. I'm probably doing more of #1 and #2 when traveling, and more of #3 when I'm visiting an establishment I know well.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smilie
But, this doesn't stop me feeling self-conscious and then there's the sitting by yourself in the restaurant just staring into space or looking out of the window.

My XGF and I were both comfortable eating alone in restaurants. If you enjoy something, why do it only when you have a partner with you? I probably would never go if it involved staring out into space! Some ideas--1) sit at the bar and strike up a conversation, 2) observe the decor, menu, scenery, and people, 3) bring a book, laptop, or something else to do. I'm probably doing more of #1 and #2 when traveling, and more of #3 when I'm visiting an establishment I know well.


That's one thing I love about smartphones and tablets: I always have a book with me!
I'm relatively introverted so I like to be alone. But having my daughter so young I'm rarely if ever alone. And I've never lived entirely alone in my whole life. I always had at least a roommate. Even in the time periods when it was just me and my kiddo I had a roommate, so I do actually forget what it's like to do things alone.

I absolutely love going to movies alone. I also like eating alone. But I love to people watch so it's always entertaining to me no matter what. Also like CW said sitting at the bar is a very different eat alone experience. If there's a counter to eat at, even if there's no bar, I like to sit there. I was a waitress and bartender in my youth and there's nothing I love more than a slightly annoyed server who will tell you everything about the restaurant, the staff, and the entire area if you give them the chance.

A little town by the sea sounds lovely, but if locals are telling you outright you won't want a house it's probably a safe bet that they are right. I hope you gets some clarity on all this housing stuff. Still wishing you lots of luck.
Originally Posted by smilie
it was a crap place....The only thing is, is that there is absolutely nothing to do.
You can look at the glass as half empty or half full.

One of my hobbies is photography. I am sure I could spend weeks at your town taking photographs. I would go in and get to know the older men. I am sure they have interesting stories. I would ride the train to the bigger city and small talk everyone.

I intentionally leave my phone in my pocket when I am out eating alone. I engage with the staff. I am out to "practice" interaction skills. I break the ice, and most people vomit at the mouth. I just listen and ask open ended questions. Practice making people laugh.

These behaviors go against my natural introverted desires.
I am back home now and have started a new thread to reply to all of your comments:

Picking Up the Pieces After WAW Goes Again #3
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