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So this weekend I started to watch the series Sex/Live on Netflix that gives the good depiction of the mindset of a WW wife. What is extremely telling in the story is that she is purely acting on emotion. It starts out as a fantasy about an ex BF, then turns into an EA and I am guessing that it will turn into a PA. Logically she knows she has everything that a woman dreams about growing up. Good looking loving husband, big house, kids, career. Her husband is letting some things slips in the romance department, some equipment issues and his work is a priority. But for all intents and purposes they have an incredible life.

I must warn you that if you are married man this show may really rub you the wrong way. Its pathetic how this stuff is so sensationalized but has interesting insight to the WW mindset touching on losing yourself, post partum depression and MLC.
I haven't watched that one yet, but "Marriage Story" was hard to watch. Lots of classic mistakes from both sides.
Saw it popping up in my favorites yesterday. Will definitely have a look soon.
Saw it on Netflix, this Saturday, kept going back to it, but couldn't pull myself to watch it after watching the preview. It's too intriguing not to watch thou. I know I will be trigger.
Where I am, we have just been thrown into lockdown for 2 weeks, so I have plenty of time on my hands. Just watched the first episode. One thing that struck out at me when the backstory of her and the ex-BF was playing out was her saying that the first night she was with him she had a "vision of who she could be" with him. This is a person that couldn't make herself happy, but relied on someone else.

Also, a fair bit of butterfly imagery. At the start, her S says the butterfly is a female and she talks about setting it free otherwise it will feel caged and die. My STBXW recently got a tattoo of two butterflies to signify the change in her life.
I specifically avoided "Marriage Story" as it was getting popular on Netflix right during the heart of my stich - seemed way too dramatic and realistic, and I was too raw.

What's the tone of Sex/Life? Does the cheating spouse have their fantasy crushed and life ruined as all us LBSs have fantasized about, or do does she ride off in the sunset as Hollywood would have us believe?
Originally Posted by BL42
I specifically avoided "Marriage Story" as it was getting popular on Netflix right during the heart of my stich - seemed way too dramatic and realistic, and I was too raw.


I did the opposite and watched it during the heart of my sitch. I'll admit that pathetically I was hoping that I'd see some hope for us in the watching of it. Hard to watch given how real it feels.

Originally Posted by BL42
What's the tone of Sex/Life? Does the cheating spouse have their fantasy crushed and life ruined as all us LBSs have fantasized about, or do does she ride off in the sunset as Hollywood would have us believe?


No spoilers BL. Like LH said, highly sensationalised, but its uncanny how many things she does that my own STBXW did/said. Lots of underlying themes and hidden meanings if you know what you're looking for. Which I imagine most on here do.
Originally Posted by BL42
I specifically avoided "Marriage Story" as it was getting popular on Netflix right during the heart of my stich - seemed way too dramatic and realistic, and I was too raw.

What's the tone of Sex/Life? Does the cheating spouse have their fantasy crushed and life ruined as all us LBSs have fantasized about, or do does she ride off in the sunset as Hollywood would have us believe?

Her wayward tendencies are strong!
So I finished the series last night. Not to spoil it but the moral of the story is that 85% of your life can be absolutely amazing and its ok if that isn't enough. You deserve to have at all no matter if it destroys to everyone around you.

Great job Netflix! lol.
No, no, no. I think the bigger part of this series and I just began watching it is, not dating before you are over your ex!

She was in some crazy passionate relationship with this dude who broke her heart and met her husband a month later, never dealing with her crap. And he re entered the picture.

So the moral of the story is get healthy before dating
Originally Posted by Ginger1
No, no, no. I think the bigger part of this series and I just began watching it is, not dating before you are over your ex!

She was in some crazy passionate relationship with this dude who broke her heart and met her husband a month later, never dealing with her crap. And he re entered the picture.

So the moral of the story is get healthy before dating

That's a great point Ginger I did not think of that. However, you are not finished with it so your opinion may change.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
No, no, no. I think the bigger part of this series and I just began watching it is, not dating before you are over your ex!

She was in some crazy passionate relationship with this dude who broke her heart and met her husband a month later, never dealing with her crap. And he re entered the picture.

So the moral of the story is get healthy before dating


Bingo Ginger! This woman was always looking for someone to make her happy rather than happiness from within herself.
Originally Posted by LH19
So I finished the series last night. Not to spoil it but the moral of the story is that 85% of your life can be absolutely amazing and its ok if that isn't enough. You deserve to have at all no matter if it destroys to everyone around you.

Great job Netflix! lol.

Ugh. It'd be nice for once if the WAS was painted as the awful party and their life blew up due to their waywardness! LOL

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
This woman was always looking for someone to make her happy rather than happiness from within herself.

This is actually one of my major take-aways from this board and other resources over the last year and a half, and I now have a much better understanding of the concept. Happiness has to come from within; other people can not be responsible for our happiness. Just like a shiny new thing, the validation and excitement a new relationship brings fades after awhile and you revert back to your previous level if you don't address yourself internally.
Originally Posted by LH19
So I finished the series last night. Not to spoil it but the moral of the story is that 85% of your life can be absolutely amazing and its ok if that isn't enough. You deserve to have at all no matter if it destroys to everyone around you.

Great job Netflix! lol.


I was OK with the ending until the last two words of the show.

UGH!

During E1, the husband gets home and says the right thing.... but to the wrong person. Watch the wife's reaction.
She feels good....until she realizes he is talking to the daughter and not her. Then notice how she feels.

Guys, it is critical that you are aware of your woman's emotional state when she is in your presence. It is also critical to understand that words to a woman are like visuals are to a man.
The use of the butterfly in the very first episode and the very beginning is genius. Her words are spoken by so many WS it's crazy. She told her son, "honey, you can't keep it trap in there, if you do it will suffocate and die, you have to set it free".

So many WW get butterfly tatts. LOL!!!
Good shout out for this LH - Just watched EP1 and EP2.. I'll watch some more tonight..

Seems on the money so far.

Originally Posted by joejoe1

So many WW get butterfly tatts. LOL!!!


Maybe this should be on a mans red flag list when dating lol..

My WW had 2 butterflys! - got them when she left her mum and step dads house as she was "free"

I mentioned a while ago about 1 date i had with a woman with 3 ex husbands from memory ! 3 ! ( red flag and ill get the bill ASAP moment ) - all 3 were abusive apparently. Guess what she had. A tatt of a bird flying out of a cage. She said it was her escaping the abuse in the past... But it proves the point again.. Red flags are there, if you are in a sound enough mind to spot them !
I have a butterfly tat that I have had since 17.

Maybe thats why I am still single hahahaha!
Originally Posted by MrBrside
I mentioned a while ago about 1 date i had with a woman with 3 ex husbands from memory ! 3 ! ( red flag and ill get the bill ASAP moment ) - all 3 were abusive apparently.

I'm curious--I'd see this as a yellow "caution" flag. 3 failed marriages tell me she made vows too quickly and learned from her mistakes too slowly. But, if this were 5+ years ago, and she could articulate what she'd done to change, she might be okay. Admittedly, people tell me I'm too slow to call a flag red, so I ask why 3 failed marriages possibly due to choosing abusive partners is an absolute dealbreaker for you out of curiosity.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
A tatt of a bird flying out of a cage.

Originally Posted by Ginger
I have a butterfly tat that I have had since 17.

Aha--so butterflies and birds aren't a red flag, they're an orange (ginger) flag!
Originally Posted by CWarrior

I'm curious--I'd see this as a yellow "caution" flag. 3 failed marriages tell me she made vows too quickly and learned from her mistakes too slowly. But, if this were 5+ years ago, and she could articulate what she'd done to change, she might be okay. Admittedly, people tell me I'm too slow to call a flag red, so I ask why 3 failed marriages potentially due to abuse is an absolute dealbreaker for you out of curiosity.



Fair question, but i think the biggest mistake a LBS spouse makes is to ignore the flags, if the lady is pretty / gorgeous / flirty / interested etc.. She was all of those.

Our date was roughly 1st week in October 2020.

On chatting to her, i found out she has kicked her current husband ( so seperated ) out on something like the 18th September 2020!!! - Yes - She was out dating weeks after seperating.

Very Broken IMO - hence, nice to meet you, i'll ge the bill.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Our date was roughly 1st week in October 2020. On chatting to her, i found out she has kicked her current husband ( so seperated ) out on something like the 18th September 2020!!! - Yes - She was out dating weeks after seperating.

Omigosh! We need a new color for that flag that's redder than red.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Originally Posted by CWarrior

I'm curious--I'd see this as a yellow "caution" flag. 3 failed marriages tell me she made vows too quickly and learned from her mistakes too slowly. But, if this were 5+ years ago, and she could articulate what she'd done to change, she might be okay. Admittedly, people tell me I'm too slow to call a flag red, so I ask why 3 failed marriages potentially due to abuse is an absolute dealbreaker for you out of curiosity.



Fair question, but i think the biggest mistake a LBS spouse makes is to ignore the flags, if the lady is pretty / gorgeous / flirty / interested etc.. She was all of those.

Our date was roughly 1st week in October 2020.

On chatting to her, i found out she has kicked her current husband ( so seperated ) out on something like the 18th September 2020!!! - Yes - She was out dating weeks after seperating.

Very Broken IMO - hence, nice to meet you, i'll ge the bill.

I have run into this with the explanation that the marriage has been dead for years.
I have always just though butterflies are super pretty . They have always been my thing. No special meaning. They just always managed to make me smile when I saw them
Originally Posted by LH19

I have run into this with the explanation that the marriage has been dead for years.


From memory ( i was planning my escape by this point ) i think she had been married to this last husband for 10 months - just before covid hit !!!! - Run Run Run
I went out on a date with a woman who was married 3 times, engaged 2 other times and her last husband killed himself in front of her because she cheated on him. Good thing my friend knew her!
Getting back to the series. I know women who have been single for many, many years who would give their right arm to be married a Cooper. I also know women who have been married for many years who would give their right arm for Brad. People in general want what they don't have mainly because they are not happy with themselves and they think what's missing will make them happy. Such is life.
I haven't watched this one, but from your description it seems like it's more about hypergamy and an 'alpha widow' pining for her long lost ex rather than a WW in crisis?
Nah shes definitely wayward!
Watching episode 1....

Guy is a catch, not perfect, but mostly doing all the right things.

WW had too much experience and variety in her past which clouded her married life. If I recall she refers to him as "straight laced."

While Cooper is living in the present, his WW is living in the past and comparing that life with the one she is quickly becoming dissatisfied with now.

This mindset, if not quickly and properly dealt with, becomes a ski slope with only one outcome at the end.

I finished this last night.

Great shout LH.

My take..

Cooper probably didn't ask the right questions / ignored the red flags early on.

As Drh2001 says, Billie is living in the past.

The show did a great job of showing that 85% can be perfect, but it doesnt matter.

Once the emotion kicks in, any logic to that thought is gone.

So many LBS think everything was fine.. It only has to be a small amount of resementment / frustration on the part of the WW, along with timings and wham.... Full scale WW.

Hence for any LBS, realise that its not you - and there is NOTHING you can do to stop that emotional train wreck. Look at the last 3 minutes of the series !

I think the other thing the LBS spouse needs to take from this is how their emotions are sideways... Look what Cooper nearly lost - because his usual persona went sideways when he started to act on emotion...Its sooo important for the LBS to tty and put their emotions to the side.

How many times have we seen certain LBS give others advice, yet they dont follow it themselves - so easy to have an opinion / give advice when you are detached from that situation - different ball game when it involves them - Hence why detachment and breaking away from emotion is key.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Great shout LH.

I think it's a must watch for all LBS and fits perfectly into the script.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Cooper probably didn't ask the right questions / ignored the red flags early on.

This is a great point. He did not know her sexual history and in the end it is what cost him.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
As Drh2001 says, Billie is living in the past.

Yep and most WWs are dealing with depression.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
The show did a great job of showing that 85% can be perfect, but it doesnt matter.

This is the part that literally had me shaking my head.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Once the emotion kicks in, any logic to that thought is gone.

Yep she can't see that the sex will fade and there is a good chance Brad will eventually trade her in for a younger version. Cooper will rebound and find a woman that will appreciate what he has to offer. Unfortunately, the kids will spend their rest of their lives bouncing from house to house including the holidays. But hey at least Billie got her freak on lol.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
So many LBS think everything was fine.. It only has to be a small amount of resentment / frustration on the part of the WW, along with timings and wham.... Full scale WW.

She couldn't get to his apartment fast enough.
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Hence for any LBS, realise that its not you - and there is NOTHING you can do to stop that emotional train wreck. Look at the last 3 minutes of the series !

Originally Posted by MrBrside
I think the other thing the LBS spouse needs to take from this is how their emotions are sideways... Look what Cooper nearly lost - because his usual persona went sideways when he started to act on emotion...Its sooo important for the LBS to tty and put their emotions to the side.

Ahhh "The illusion of action" I need to do something to win her back. I wonder what would have happened if he immediately boxed all her $hit up and put it in the garage. He let her back in too easy. This NEVER works!
Originally Posted by MrBrside
How many times have we seen certain LBS give others advice, yet they dont follow it themselves - so easy to have an opinion / give advice when you are detached from that situation - different ball game when it involves them - Hence why detachment and breaking away from emotion is key.

Be attached to your children. Everybody else has to earn a place in your life.
Quote

Yep and most WWs are dealing with depression.


I would actually add insecurities to this as well.

Quote

Ahhh "The illusion of action" I need to do something to win her back. I wonder what would have happened if he immediately boxed all her $hit up and put it in the garage. He let her back in too easy. This NEVER works!


I think this is tell tale of 99% of the LBS. Many don't find this site until after the event.
I didnt find it for a long time.
I'd like to say i wish i knew what i knew now much earlier.

The truth is, i don't - As i prefer my life with WW lol smile
Originally Posted by MrBrside
I finished this last night.

Great shout LH.

My take..

Cooper probably didn't ask the right questions / ignored the red flags early on.

As Drh2001 says, Billie is living in the past.

The show did a great job of showing that 85% can be perfect, but it doesnt matter.

Once the emotion kicks in, any logic to that thought is gone.

So many LBS think everything was fine.. It only has to be a small amount of resementment / frustration on the part of the WW, along with timings and wham.... Full scale WW.

Hence for any LBS, realise that its not you - and there is NOTHING you can do to stop that emotional train wreck. Look at the last 3 minutes of the series !

I think the other thing the LBS spouse needs to take from this is how their emotions are sideways... Look what Cooper nearly lost - because his usual persona went sideways when he started to act on emotion...Its sooo important for the LBS to tty and put their emotions to the side.

How many times have we seen certain LBS give others advice, yet they dont follow it themselves - so easy to have an opinion / give advice when you are detached from that situation - different ball game when it involves them - Hence why detachment and breaking away from emotion is key.




Interesting thoughts MrBrside.

My WW recently said to me "people don't leave happy marriages".

Um, yes they do. It only takes one partner to have, as you mentioned "a small amount of resentment" or a blast from the past to kickstart their emotions and then it becomes something that feeds on itself.

All of this happens with Billie while she is not thinking about her two little ones, she is only thinking about herself.

The children don't even enter her thoughts till her son calls her on the phone when she's in the city saying he misses her.
Originally Posted by Drh2001
My WW recently said to me "people don't leave happy marriages".


I actually agree with her Doc, if the M is happy I don't think they blow up. This is not me defending the actions of waywards by any means.

Originally Posted by Drh2001
All of this happens with Billie while she is not thinking about her two little ones, she is only thinking about herself.

The children don't even enter her thoughts till her son calls her on the phone when she's in the city saying he misses her.


Agreed, she is uber selfish. Does not consider her children at all, what sort of example she is setting. There is a scene in the first ep at the train station where she runs into the other mum and her child. I think this scene was to show that her focus wasn't where it should have been.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by Drh2001
My WW recently said to me "people don't leave happy marriages".


I actually agree with her Doc, if the M is happy I don't think they blow up. This is not me defending the actions of waywards by any means.

Originally Posted by Drh2001
All of this happens with Billie while she is not thinking about her two little ones, she is only thinking about herself.

The children don't even enter her thoughts till her son calls her on the phone when she's in the city saying he misses her.


Agreed, she is uber selfish. Does not consider her children at all, what sort of example she is setting. There is a scene in the first ep at the train station where she runs into the other mum and her child. I think this scene was to show that her focus wasn't where it should have been.



Hey, no problem. I think what I meant to clarfiy is a marriage can "look" happy but one partner fakes it or they're happy until someone comes along, an ex from the past, and suddenly they can't resist temptation. I often wondered why even pastors who have a happy family and kids cheat on their wives.


Watching Ep 4 and Billie is becoming obsessed with Brad. It has become an addiction even though she has flashbacks to him acting out.
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Hey, no problem. I think what I meant to clarfiy is a marriage can "look" happy but one partner fakes it or they're happy until someone comes along, an ex from the past, and suddenly they can't resist temptation. I often wondered why even pastors who have a happy family and kids cheat on their wives.


I'm with you, really a reflection of poor communication. My STBXW loved to tell me how poor a communicator I was, and she was right. But for her to be unhappy for at least 2 years (although she is now claiming she was never happy) and not communicate that and what she needed from me is a bit of pot kettle black.
Quote

My WW recently said to me "people don't leave happy marriages".

Um, yes they do. It only takes one partner to have, as you mentioned "a small amount of resentment" or a blast from the past to kickstart their emotions and then it becomes something that feeds on itself.

All of this happens with Billie while she is not thinking about her two little ones, she is only thinking about herself.

The children don't even enter her thoughts till her son calls her on the phone when she's in the city saying he misses her.


People definetly cheat in happy marriages.

The 85% in this is a great example. Billie has a near perfect life, but wants 100% perfect.

She also wanted her cake and to eat it - Look at the last 3 minutes - It comes over as things are great at the end.. Then she shows her WW mindset - she wants 100% ! - selfish.

I think it also highlights how communucation is key. Billie kept her past secret, but Cooper wasnt exactly a prude. Had she communicated this years before, well - Would it have changed... I dont think so. Its about the guy, not just the sex.

Do people leave happy marriages?.. Most LBS have seen how the WW will rewrite the history anyway, so who really knows if it was happy relationship.. By the time they hit WW stage, they have changed the past anyway.

A cheater will rewrite history to escape accountability

I'll put it out here now, that the physical side with my long term partner prior to my WW was in a different league to the physical relationship that myself and WW had. Sex with WW wasnt bad, but i'd had 3 years of the most amazing Brad and Billie sex with my ex prior to the WW.

Did my previous ex cross my mind in my 8 years with the WW.. very occasionally - Did i ever reach out to that past ex, or ever contemplate cheating on my WW.. Never. Not once, and i never would have. My relationship with my WW wasnt 100% - Hell it was probably closer to 70% happyness, but i would have never looked elsewhere.

Boundaries and mindsets. There are consequnces to stupid decissions like cheating.
Watching Ep 5...

Cooper confronts Billie about Brad after reading her journal.

When a cheater-to-be is confronted, this is where the denial, lies and justification really start to kick in.

"Brad is dating Sasha. He means nothing to me."


Maybe Billie doesn't want to believe Brad means something to her. Cooper doesn't believe her because he read her journal.

Cognitive dissonance at its best.





Originally Posted by MrBrside
Quote

My WW recently said to me "people don't leave happy marriages".

Um, yes they do. It only takes one partner to have, as you mentioned "a small amount of resentment" or a blast from the past to kickstart their emotions and then it becomes something that feeds on itself.

All of this happens with Billie while she is not thinking about her two little ones, she is only thinking about herself.

The children don't even enter her thoughts till her son calls her on the phone when she's in the city saying he misses her.


People definetly cheat in happy marriages.

The 85% in this is a great example. Billie has a near perfect life, but wants 100% perfect.

She also wanted her cake and to eat it - Look at the last 3 minutes - It comes over as things are great at the end.. Then she shows her WW mindset - she wants 100% ! - selfish.

I think it also highlights how communucation is key. Billie kept her past secret, but Cooper wasnt exactly a prude. Had she communicated this years before, well - Would it have changed... I dont think so. Its about the guy, not just the sex.

Do people leave happy marriages?.. Most LBS have seen how the WW will rewrite the history anyway, so who really knows if it was happy relationship.. By the time they hit WW stage, they have changed the past anyway.

A cheater will rewrite history to escape accountability

I'll put it out here now, that the physical side with my long term partner prior to my WW was in a different league to the physical relationship that myself and WW had. Sex with WW wasnt bad, but i'd had 3 years of the most amazing Brad and Billie sex with my ex prior to the WW.

Did my previous ex cross my mind in my 8 years with the WW.. very occasionally - Did i ever reach out to that past ex, or ever contemplate cheating on my WW.. Never. Not once, and i never would have. My relationship with my WW wasnt 100% - Hell it was probably closer to 70% happyness, but i would have never looked elsewhere.

Boundaries and mindsets. There are consequnces to stupid decissions like cheating.



Interesting thoughts. They do rewrite history because it lessens or eliminates the guilt.

My WW told my girls recently that she has paid the price for leaving me for OM in terms of how often she sees our children. When she first separated from me, she texted me "I am sorry I seem to have broken things but I know there is a price to be paid."

We have 50/50 custody but my eldest only goes there one day a week. She doesn't like OM.

Truth is you can't put a dollar value on the consequences of adultery. It leaves a trail of shattered glass going through generations not yet born. My eldest kid sees her once a week - once a week! but OM's children get 100% mommy time. How is that not messed up?


I hate to say it, but this show will be brining a lot of LBS to this site. The traffic will start to pick up.

The ending threw me off. I wasn't expecting it to go that far. It kinda made no sense in my eyes. She worked hard to shift her mind set the entire series and than the last few minutes, she said F it. Ok!

But, it shows, that people are uber selfish, she didn't want to give up her husband or Brad. She wanted them both. But what's also crazy, is both men were being played by Billie. They both were willing to give her up to the other man, to make her happy. Both men fought for her and she did what she wanted to do, no matter what. And her kids be dam.

Lastly, they made the entire, reason for her unhappiness, about not being satisfied sexually, that her husband wasn't sexual enough, than they put her and Cooper in multiple situations, where he was willing to go the extra mile sexually, but it was never good enough. Instead of her allowing Coop to leave, she wanted the married life, for her own portrayal.
So, the entire time, she wanted to be with Brad, not because, he was a better man, but because he gave her better memories dealing with sex.

I think a lot from the LBS perspective were accurate. I think at first Billie was Wayward, but the last episode she knew what she was doing and that can't be forgiven.

Also, Coop didn't believe a word she told him, he put that tracker on her a##. LOL
Originally Posted by joejoe1

The ending threw me off. I wasn't expecting it to go that far. It kinda made no sense in my eyes. She worked hard to shift her mind set the entire series and than the last few minutes, she said F it. Ok!


She was acting on emotion. I dont think she shifted her mindset - she was just held back by fear / guilt. It's been said more than a few times on here - The LBS is in fear of losing their partner etc, but the WW also has fear of the unknown.

Originally Posted by joejoe1

But, it shows, that people are uber selfish, she didn't want to give up her husband or Brad. She wanted them both. But what's also crazy, is both men were being played by Billie. They both were willing to give her up to the other man, to make her happy. Both men fought for her and she did what she wanted to do, no matter what. And her kids be dam.


To me this comes back to the self respect of both Brad and Cooper. They didnt know their true value and put her worth above their own self respect.
I did that once, and i suspect 99% of the LBS here did - the pleading, the reasoning, explaining themselves, bending over backwards to prove to the WW that you are the catch - and with every action the self respect of the LBS gets chipped away.

Originally Posted by joejoe1

Also, Coop didn't believe a word she told him, he put that tracker on her a##. LOL


Again, self respect. She played him. Where is the trust if hes tracking her.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
I hate to say it, but this show will be brining a lot of LBS to this site. The traffic will start to pick up.

Agreed! I will say it again. Marriages will be obsolete or implemented differently in the next 50 years.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
The ending threw me off. I wasn't expecting it to go that far. It kinda made no sense in my eyes. She worked hard to shift her mind set the entire series and than the last few minutes, she said F it. Ok!

JJ it makes perfect sense. Emotions over logic and reason is the WW creed.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
But, it shows, that people are uber selfish, she didn't want to give up her husband or Brad.

WWs love their cake!
Originally Posted by joejoe1
She wanted them both. But what's also crazy, is both men were being played by Billie. They both were willing to give her up to the other man, to make her happy.

I don't know if I agree that Brad was being played. She was a married woman who "chose" her husband.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
Both men fought for her and she did what she wanted to do, no matter what. And her kids be dam.

Kids are also the ones to suffer in the long run.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
Lastly, they made the entire, reason for her unhappiness, about not being satisfied sexually, that her husband wasn't sexual enough, than they put her and Cooper in multiple situations, where he was willing to go the extra mile sexually, but it was never good enough. Instead of her allowing Coop to leave, she wanted the married life, for her own portrayal

I don't even think she was that unhappy she gave into her emotions like most WWs. Without seeking professional help and seeking what's really going on in her mind.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
So, the entire time, she wanted to be with Brad, not because, he was a better man, but because he gave her better memories dealing with sex.

I think when things were good with Brad she was filled up physically and emotionally. Due to the fading affect bias she forgot that when things were bad with Brad they were really bad. Abuse/cheating etc.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
Also, Coop didn't believe a word she told him, he put that tracker on her a##. LOL

That was bizarre. They all go to the play at the school and then Coop takes the kids home and she go out???? Always trust your gut!
Originally Posted by LH19

Agreed! I will say it again. Marriages will be obsolete or implemented differently in the next 50 years.


The institution of marriage has constantly evolved through history. Also, at any given point of time marriages have meant vastly different things in different regions, cultures, religions, social structures etc. The one thing that won't change is the need for people to have relationships whether it is based on physical, emotional, political, material or any other need. Marriage will continue to be a tool that serves that need regardless of what whether it is called marriage or by some other name smile
Originally Posted by joejoe1
I hate to say it, but this show will be brining a lot of LBS to this site. The traffic will start to pick up.

The ending threw me off. I wasn't expecting it to go that far. It kinda made no sense in my eyes. She worked hard to shift her mind set the entire series and than the last few minutes, she said F it. Ok!

But, it shows, that people are uber selfish, she didn't want to give up her husband or Brad. She wanted them both. But what's also crazy, is both men were being played by Billie. They both were willing to give her up to the other man, to make her happy. Both men fought for her and she did what she wanted to do, no matter what. And her kids be dam.

Lastly, they made the entire, reason for her unhappiness, about not being satisfied sexually, that her husband wasn't sexual enough, than they put her and Cooper in multiple situations, where he was willing to go the extra mile sexually, but it was never good enough. Instead of her allowing Coop to leave, she wanted the married life, for her own portrayal.
So, the entire time, she wanted to be with Brad, not because, he was a better man, but because he gave her better memories dealing with sex.

I think a lot from the LBS perspective were accurate. I think at first Billie was Wayward, but the last episode she knew what she was doing and that can't be forgiven.

Also, Coop didn't believe a word she told him, he put that tracker on her a##. LOL



I was shocked by the ending. 100% wayward and 100% selfish.

and Cooper is right - there is a huge dark stain on not just the marriage but him.

This selfish woman turned a good man into something he didn't even recognize
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by LH19

Agreed! I will say it again. Marriages will be obsolete or implemented differently in the next 50 years.


The institution of marriage has constantly evolved through history. Also, at any given point of time marriages have meant vastly different things in different regions, cultures, religions, social structures etc. The one thing that won't change is the need for people to have relationships whether it is based on physical, emotional, political, material or any other need. Marriage will continue to be a tool that serves that need regardless of what whether it is called marriage or by some other name smile


Agreed, but it's always the children who suffer. We write about our experiences as adults and sometimes forget what it's like to be a child going through a divorce.

My parents divorced after us kids left home and it still hurt knowing our family's security was taken away and everything we believed in was shattered.

Waywards put their own emotions above everything else. As Sandi said, they "crown themselves with entitlement." They are selfish beasts.

Just want to chime in on a +1 to the butterfly tat thing.

Couple years ago WW came back from a hiking trip with a butterfly tattoo.
she had 2 more affairs before she left and filed with OM who has now dumped her, since she was talking to his friend.

LOL.........................................

I will most likely binge watch the remaining episodes this weekend. Both men have good and bad traits. I will incorporate any of the good ones into my behavior. Always helps keep my relationship with my woman interesting and fun.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I will most likely binge watch the remaining episodes this weekend. Both men have good and bad traits. I will incorporate any of the good ones into my behavior. Always helps keep my relationship with my woman interesting and fun.


I bet most of use men here relate to Cooper more than Brad. Learning and effectively adding that 15% Billie craves into our behavior is difficult but achievable. Brad is a good study. Watch how his words effect Billie. Cooper is clueless on how to do this. There are ways to have your woman thinking about you like Billie thinks of Brad. It takes effort, but the results are worth the effort. You will be the one hearing "the last two words".
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
There are ways to have your woman thinking about you like Billie thinks of Brad. It takes effort, but the results are worth the effort.


Can you elaborate on this please R2C?
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
There are ways to have your woman thinking about you like Billie thinks of Brad. It takes effort, but the results are worth the effort.


Can you elaborate on this please R2C?


2nd that. Books/reads?
Mumin, welcome back! When do we get an update mate?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
There are ways to have your woman thinking about you like Billie thinks of Brad. It takes effort, but the results are worth the effort.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Can you elaborate on this please R2C?
Originally Posted by Mumin
2nd that. Books/reads?



Start here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
and read "Counter-intuitive ways to attract" first. That is a good foundation.

Read the others about attraction as well.

If you study the ways of pick-up artist, they have a subset of what is needed. They are good at faking some of the most important traits.

Google "wing girl method" She has some great advise.



As you are watching the Netflix (Sex/Lives) , really pay attention to the difference in the way Brad speaks to Billie compared to the way Cooper speaks to Billie.

Also watch how Brad is willing to take risks. He is not boring. Watch his behavior around Billie. Watch her and how she responds. Notice how she feels while she is in his presence.




Hey OB, and thanks!
Ive stayed on as a not so frequent lurker, mostly following a few posters.

Short update here.
On a two week vacation with my kids, life in general is very good.
Been on two dates with one girl, told her I couldnt commit.
Working out a lot.
Not reading that much anymore, will try to pick it up during summer.
Quick but good, well done mate.

Originally Posted by Mumin
Been on two dates with one girl, told her I couldnt commit.


Why not? What was her response?
Finally spent some time watching this crap show.
I am on episode 6 and actually think cooper did a great job when WW came to his office.
Exactly how a LBS should handle it.
I spent all night thinking of a life without you
( shows he is planning and preparing. Hes ready to live without her)
I am trying, but there is something going on her that has nothing to do with me. PLEASE, figure it out!
(Says he is willing to try but she must do the work too/first)
He took her back too easy and it literally fuched him in the end.
Originally Posted by LH19
He took her back too easy and it literally fuched him in the end.
YUP
So I know I'm a bit behind, but finally watched the series...

First, definitely trashy affair/D porn.

Second, interestingly the kids' gender & ages are identical to mine during my sitch. At one point Sasha tells Cooper that Billie is going through a post-partum MLC "thing". I haven't thought of that angle recently, but definitely thought a lot early on about whether post-partum played a factor, along with weaning breastfeeding and pausing ADs, as W was also nasty to D1 for awhile and there were a lot of drug and hormone changes in the 6 months before BD.

Episode 1
  • The butterfly allusion was not at all subtle. Billie says "She can’t breath in there. She’ll die if you don’t let her go."
  • Cooper says “Where’s my beautiful girl?” referring to the daughter not the wife, who was looking for love and validation and clearly disappointed, even if he was being a great dad.
  • Billie mentions having already done 73 of the Karma Sutra positions before marriage. There's a discussion on some of the online resources about how a higher "body count" makes it more likely to end in affairs or divorce because of the experiences you're missing and a higher chance you've encountered a "the one who got away"
  • Billie mentions the "stability and sanity" Cooper offered – my ExW said “stability” was one of the reasons she married for me
  • In the flashback Brad did a good job with seduction by leaning in for the kiss but then kind of psyching Billie out by not kissing her and instead saying “I want to show you something”...building the sexual tension.


Episode 2
  • For awhile Cooper was glossing over the clear issues, and instead buying presents and taking her on dates. It's discussed on here a lot if there's an affair going on the extra attention from both parties is a morale booster for the WS.
  • Billie says “this is what a sweetheart does when he reads your journal. He doesn’t get mad; he gets busy. Trying to give you what you want, what your impossibly sexy ex-boyfriend gave you ten years ago.” She's enjoying the cake eating.
  • The snooping definitely impacted Cooper's attitude and bitterness towards Billie and made him waiver on R at times. No way to say whether it would've changed the end result though.


Episode 3
  • There were times Billie reached out but Cooper pushed back out of bitterness. She wanted to have sex with him in the shower but he responds with “The service lights on in the jag still. When are you going to get that fixed?”, which clearly upsets her
  • Brad's issues (no relationship) with dad and his mom’s new husband / stepfather had big impacts on his relationship.
  • Cooper kept trying to recreate a sexual memories for Billie to please and fulfill her "it's what she wants", but could never compete with the fantasy


Episode 4
  • Brad's coworker says "You’ve been playing this 'nice guy' for so long and look where that’s gotten you!" We talk about NGS on here a lot.
  • Brad's coworker says "You’re so focused on work. You’re busy being super dad. You’ve forgotten about you."
    I've heard about this in the online self-help videos I've seen about losing your purpose and sense of self can cause a decline in the relationship and respect. Guys think, myself included, if we provide with the career and are a great dad that's enough. Another Stander had a post on someone's thread recently about how the kids will grow up and you'll have less time with them regardless of the D, so you have to find interests and hobbies for your own life.
  • Billie pushes back like a typical WS and says “You read my journal, that’s what started all this!” Rolling my eyes. We just had a big discussion on Michka's thread about our spouses blaming us more for snooping than their affairs.
  • Billie says “It had been such a long time. You weren’t touching me. Why not?” She needed love and validation and a sense of desire...not just the career and father to her kids.


Episode 5
  • Cooper says to Billie “You keep treating me like some B grade consolation prize. It’s making me sick.” How often on this board do we mention the LBS being the WAS's "Plan B". The show explicitly calls it out.


Episode 6
  • Sasha says “He’s damaged, B. All that [censored] with his dad?” Again...daddy issues impacting the relationship. (my W had cut her dad out for 5 years and he didn't attend our wedding).
  • Cooper to Billie: “It’s not all in my head. There is something going on between you two” How’d you get home, his motorcycle?” “Nothing happened” Clear example of dealing with gaslighting.
  • “Copper this is our marriage, we need to fix this.” “I know and I’m trying but There is something going on here that has nothing to do with me.”
    I've been told many times by various people that it's not all me...ExW is dealing with her own issues and just focusing her anger at me. I've see it discussed on this board that the WAS is dealing with their own sitch, and it's not always about the LBS.
  • "85% of my marriage is the stuff that people dream about, but 15%...sex. Desire, feeling desired. Freedom to be anyone and do anything. Cooper is trying to give me anything, but it’s just not the same."
    Incredible how 85% isn't enough. Her counselor friend says the guy who is stable can't provide the thrill and excitement, but someone maybe Brad can do both? That didn't make sense. Thing is, if you chase the 15% you're likely to lose a good portion of the 85%. But, I know...logic vs. emotions.
  • Counselor to Bille: “Isn’t that why you came to me? I’m the guy who doesn’t believe any of that ‘death do us part’ crap”
    I found this especially interesting. The show explicitly raised the question of whether she sought out the counselor because she KNEW didn't think monogamy was the answer and his feedback would validate through logic and reason her emotional actions towards Billie. My ExW reached out to only the folks who had their own affairs/Ds or would back up her actions, and specifically put aside the people who would tell her to work on the marriage. Seem to be another common thread.


Episode 7/8
  • Interesting to see the social blow back from other woman about Billie's affair. Don't think it's fair to put that on a 4yo, but do sometimes wonder if ExW is getting any vibes/put downs around town for what she did. I thought there would be more of a stigma, but it seems like people just smile and be friendly to her anyway (though obviously what I see is very limited).


Season 2 Prediction: Billie has some fun with Brad who inevitably leaves her for the 500th time, and now she’s stuck with 50% of her young kids’ lives in a downsized house chasing both the 15% and the 85%???
Just saw a preview for a new Netflix series called "On The Verge" about four women experiencing midlife crisises. I have not seen the show, but wonder if it's going resonate with similar themes on this board with MLC and D, the way Sex/Lives did with affairs and wayward mindset.
Originally Posted by BL42
Just saw a preview for a new Netflix series called "On The Verge" about four women experiencing midlife crisises. I have not seen the show, but wonder if it's going resonate with similar themes on this board with MLC and D, the way Sex/Lives did with affairs and wayward mindset.
I have been watching it but I don't think it is as blatant as the first one.
Although maybe I am just numb to all this stuff.

Edit - the thing I don't like is that they speak french and have subtitles so it takes lots of concentration to watch it.
Of course that is only with one couple and the rest are all speaking English.
So I haven't seen this Netflix show - seen preview of it, but haven't watched any episodes. I'll check it out so I can also participate in the gossip drama here smile
Anybody check out the show 'Scenes from a Marriage' that's on HBO right now? It's a remake of a 1973 Swedish series. Two episodes have dropped so far.

It's unreal how close it is to so much of what many of us here have been through. The reality is uncanny. Fair warning, the show is gonna be highly triggering for the LBS here. Just watched the second episode and I felt I could predict every single conversation that happened and how every scene basically unfolded. I won't give away anything here but it's like I was reliving almost what happened to me. Check it out at your own peril basically.
Haven't seen "Scenes from a Marriage" but maybe I'll check it out now that sufficient time has passed since BD.

What did you think of "Sex/Lives"?
I haven't started Sex/Lives yet. It's been busy but I'll check it out sometime before the end of the year.
Scenes from a Marriage is not for the faint of heart. Proceed with caution.
I'm finding it much more real than Sex/Life. Episode 2 was very raw and real, just the little things, boy was that an intense episode. Worth a watch but definitely could be triggering.

Spolier Alert....



The part where she refers to OM by his nickname, wow that hit home. I remember the first time my STBXW referred to OM by his first name and his nickname, such a weird feeling, like who is this person you seem to know so well and seem so close to, weird.
It is definitely very real. Episode 2 is just so outrageously real. Even in Ep 1 you could see the build up and the cracks in the relationship.

Spoiler alert...

The BD in Ep 2 send chills down my spine. I had it happen in almost the same setting. I'm glad I am much far removed from it where it wasn't triggering in a spiraling way, but oh boy, i saw that coming.
Spoiler Alert...

If anyone has watched episode 3 yet, what do we think about when he says how much pain he was in every day for a year and she says so was she, despite seemingly having moved in with OM...that she thought about him every day? Do we buy it? My STBX Brother-in-law tried to tell me that STBXW wasn't handling things well and I just couldn't believe it.
I just watched it OB and I had the exact same thought when that scene happened.

Spoiler alert.............

It's so hard to buy that she was thinking about him every day and was in pain and that he's important to her when she just dropped him like a ton of bricks into the depths of an ocean. Like the BD was planned and she already had an OM.

I find it really hard to believe that the WAS is thinking about the LBS with such frequency. Like if you wanted it so badly why the hell did you pull what you pulled. I'm sure they're in pain, but I think from the LBS perspective it's hard to believe. We need some WAS to come up in here and tell us.

I also didn't buy it when she said that he was important to her. Some of the stuff he (LBS) did made me cringe - like reading her his notes. But then I remembered that I also did stuff that makes me cringe now.
Spoiler Alert....

The way I saw it is she came to his house with an agenda, that's why she said all those things. She knew OM was done with her and she had come crawling back. I'm with you M, I cringed at the stuff he was doing, it was so unattractive, but I too did similar things. The phone call dumping his girlfriend was clearly too unattractive for her in the end though, her interest obviously dropped down again when she realised he really hadn't changed all that much.
Spoiler Alert....

Completely agree with your assessment. She came with an agenda and tried to gently push it. and then spent the whole time trying to make him feel good and paid attention to him, and then when she was leaving she reminded him of what she wanted him to think about. I suspect the next time the issue will be pressed further or something else happens. She totally manipulated him.

Yeah she was intrigued and kinda attracted to the 'new' him and that he had a GF. Him dumping the GF was definitely super unattractive and you could just see it in her face and body language. All that desire to sleep with him probably went out the window.

I also realized that this episode is a year after BD, so all the cringey stuff he did indicates he's not done as much work as he needed to. I definitely wasn't doing cringey stuff a year out from BD - thanks to this community - and I had my head on straight. But, he's still struggling and therapy is helping, but he's still the same from episode 1 really.

It was amazing how she tried to justify uprooting him and the daughter just so she could go and live a WAS life in London - so conniving and selfish. She's still got the same mindset from BD and now that the OM is almost done with her, she wants to have the pining LBS around.

It was also incredible seeing how she responded to him asking for a divorce - like she wasn't expecting it and that it wouldn't eventually come if she continued on the path.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying it and how real it is. Anybody from this board who can stomach it, should watch it.
OnlyBent/Maika - I hope catch up with you guys in the series and join in the conversation. Maybe watching it and getting through the trigger points will help me process.
Wont read too much of earlier posts, just wanted to chime in after 12 minutes.
It is hitting so many things right!!
Episode 4 - wow wow wow!!!

Spoilers...

That was an incredible episode. In the beginning I thought he was going to be weak, but he came back and stood his ground. Finally, the WAS wants to come back but the LBS has moved on. I couldn't help but feel a sense of justice and vindication for him.

Whatcha think OB?
Wow. Unreal. You two weren't kidding...so poignant and triggering. I signed up for HBO Max to watch it when I saw Maika's latest post and I'm halfway through episode 2 right now. The scenes of her telling him about OM in the kitchen and then the conversation in the bedroom...it's having me flash back to BD and similar conversations. When they're talking about their daughter and she says "It's gonna be the best for her too" I had to pause the episode and post on here...even justifying her behavior as best for the kids!

Haven't read through your above posts because I'm not caught up to you, but will comment when I do.
Originally Posted by Maika
Episode 4 - wow wow wow!!!

Spoilers...

That was an incredible episode. In the beginning I thought he was going to be weak, but he came back and stood his ground. Finally, the WAS wants to come back but the LBS has moved on. I couldn't help but feel a sense of justice and vindication for him.

Whatcha think OB?

Spoilers....

Yeah, he was pretty strong wasn't he. I thought maybe there was a bit of waver until he found out that her and OM broke up 2 weeks prior, that seemed to strengthen his resolve again. But talk about a complete switch in circumstances. "I don't have feelings for you anymore", that would have hurt her, but its pretty much what everyone on here has heard at BD. I thought he handled things pretty classily, not to seem smug about the change in fortunes.

Its funny how in the second episode she said she knew it was all so cliched and predictable and this sequence of events was no different to that. As LH is fond of saying, focus on yourself and making a great life and you won't care whether they come back. This played out exactly like that. The writers have definitely done their research.
BL - yeah each episode gets better and we see the full trajectory of this. The BD in Ep 2 is so triggering and man was it real. How she justified her behavior was so on point.

OB - he definitely handled it with class. you could tell from the beginning she didn't want to sign the papers and something was amiss. $hit is raining down on her and now she wants to come back. He focused on himself and made things better for him and now he doesn't want her back.

I really resonated when he said, "I've been wanting this moment for 2 years," and now that it's in front of him, he realizes he doesn't want it. The writing and research is so on point. Even though the show is hard to watch at times, I'm enjoying it because it's showing how it really goes down.
So just caught up and watched Episode 4. Looked on Wikipedia to find out there's one more episode being released next week.

Definitely think this series is more real/raw/gritty than Sex/Lives which resonated with a lot of themes but seemed more fantastical, if that makes sense.

***Spoiler Alert***


Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Episode 2 was very raw and real, just the little things, boy was that an intense episode. Worth a watch but definitely could be triggering.
Originally Posted by Maika
It is definitely very real. Episode 2 is just so outrageously real. The BD in Ep 2 send chills down my spine. I had it happen in almost the same setting. I'm glad I am much far removed from it where it wasn't triggering in a spiraling way, but oh boy, i saw that coming.
Yes. The Episode 2 BD scenes were...so real. Incredible how they captured that so accurately.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
If anyone has watched episode 3 yet, what do we think about when he says how much pain he was in every day for a year and she says so was she, despite seemingly having moved in with OM...that she thought about him every day? Do we buy it? My STBX Brother-in-law tried to tell me that STBXW wasn't handling things well and I just couldn't believe it.
Originally Posted by Maika
I just watched it OB and I had the exact same thought when that scene happened.

It's so hard to buy that she was thinking about him every day and was in pain and that he's important to her when she just dropped him like a ton of bricks into the depths of an ocean. Like the BD was planned and she already had an OM.

I find it really hard to believe that the WAS is thinking about the LBS with such frequency. Like if you wanted it so badly why the hell did you pull what you pulled. I'm sure they're in pain, but I think from the LBS perspective it's hard to believe. We need some WAS to come up in here and tell us.
I really don't have any idea. It's hard for me to buy too. It doesn't make any sense. It's easy to think the WW/WAS rides off into the sunset but we hear stories of folks' Exs on here having very difficult times behind the scenes. My perception was it seemed so easy for my then-W to do all this and end the marriage / break up the family, but she lashed out and told me back before physical separation in what seemed to be a moment of honesty that I have no idea how she cries in the car and breaks down when I'm not around. So who knows. Guess it doesn't matter anyway...

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
I'm with you M, I cringed at the stuff he was doing, it was so unattractive, but I too did similar things. The phone call dumping his girlfriend was clearly too unattractive for her in the end though, her interest obviously dropped down again when she realised he really hadn't changed all that much.
Originally Posted by Maika
Yeah she was intrigued and kinda attracted to the 'new' him and that he had a GF. Him dumping the GF was definitely super unattractive and you could just see it in her face and body language. All that desire to sleep with him probably went out the window.
Dumping the GF on the phone right when he had her in the bed was definitely cringeworthy. Remind me to never do that LOL

Originally Posted by Maika
It was amazing how she tried to justify uprooting him and the daughter just so she could go and live a WAS life in London - so conniving and selfish. She's still got the same mindset from BD and now that the OM is almost done with her, she wants to have the pining LBS around.
So conniving! She's trying to soften him up and drag daughter around the world to live near AP!

Originally Posted by Maika
It was also incredible seeing how she responded to him asking for a divorce - like she wasn't expecting it and that it wouldn't eventually come if she continued on the path.
Yep! Power is flipping...

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
I really resonated when he said, "I've been wanting this moment for 2 years," and now that it's in front of him, he realizes he doesn't want it. The writing and research is so on point. Even though the show is hard to watch at times, I'm enjoying it because it's showing how it really goes down.
Yeah, like the vindication - it's every LBS's fantasy - but also wonder how often that happens in real life. Seems a little too perfect for him whereas lot of sitches on here the LBS never gets the satisfaction. Also, don't see it happening in my case but would feel bad for ExW to see her break down like that

A couple things that jumped out in Episode 4:

OM tells her: "You don't want my kid because you'll always see me as the guy who broke up your family."

Kids Custody Schedule - I found it a bit heart-wrenching when the wife is on the phone with the daughter who is upset and confused about the schedule and which day of the week she's with whom and she responds "that's what we decided / check your chart". I feel for my kids there because D3 is always asking "are we going to mommy's / who's going to pick me up" and I've been making a calendar for them.

Signing D documents - I felt emotions bubbling up when they were signing the documents, brought back memories of my own just a few months ago...
Originally Posted by BL42
Definitely think this series is more real/raw/gritty than Sex/Lives which resonated with a lot of themes but seemed more fantastical, if that makes sense.

Yep agreed BL, captured the themes, but was pretty over the top, more Hollywood type. Scenes is based on a Swedish book or TV show (or maybe a play) and I wonder if that's why it is so much more real and raw.

Originally Posted by BL42
Yeah, like the vindication - it's every LBS's fantasy - but also wonder how often that happens in real life. Seems a little too perfect for him whereas lot of sitches on here the LBS never gets the satisfaction. Also, don't see it happening in my case but would feel bad for ExW to see her break down like that.

I doubt it happens all that much in real life. Maybe they realise all those things but my guess some would never admit it anyway. I actually think once the LBS is fully over it, they genuinely don't want to heard it. In this case she really did blow up her whole life for what she saw as "passion" but then seemingly settled into normal life. Ironically, she got the passion from the H in that most recent episode with the sex and him standing up for himself, shouting and hitting her. It really wasn't worth it for her, but there would have been no reasoning with her at BD.

What do we think is in store for the final episode? My guess is that they've moved passed it all, and they're in a happy and amicable place a bit like the end of Marriage Story.
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
What do we think is in store for the final episode? My guess is that they've moved passed it all, and they're in a happy and amicable place a bit like the end of Marriage Story.
I haven't seen Marriage Story - purposefully avoided it as it got popular on Netflix during the heart of my sitch - but agree with your prediction the final episode will be focused on both sides calmed down and navigating the "new normal" / post-D / co-parenting life.

Glad I'm finally caught up with you and Maika...look forward to discussing it next week!
As a free time interlude between those series, just take a look at the movie: “The killing of two lovers”.

Oppressive feelings, from start to end….

Tell me then if you feel the same emotions.
Since Sandi isn't around to answer stuff like this, and I was a WW in my first marriage I'll take a stab at this.

Originally Posted by Maika
I find it really hard to believe that the WAS is thinking about the LBS with such frequency. Like if you wanted it so badly why the hell did you pull what you pulled. I'm sure they're in pain, but I think from the LBS perspective it's hard to believe. We need some WAS to come up in here and tell us.

I also didn't buy it when she said that he was important to her. Some of the stuff he (LBS) did made me cringe - like reading her his notes. But then I remembered that I also did stuff that makes me cringe now.

First I want to say as a WW I was atypical because my ex is an addict and bi-polar and refuses treatment more often than he takes it. I also want to say that's some of your wives also won't fit in this mold. When there's like untreated mental health issues, and unaddressed trauma it's not your typical WW so there's that.

For any of this you need to understand a few things: first being women more often than not cheat because they aren't having their needs met. Most women have repeatedly asked for those needs to be met before this kind of stuff happens. Next I don't know that literally any man can understand the psychological fallout of having a child/children. Everything about you and your perspective of the world changes and it has to change. You go from being your own person and understanding wholly or at least mostly who you are to having a brand new version of yourself thrust upon you. A version where you have no privacy, no personal space, no sleep, no time, where 90% of the time you have no idea what you're doing (and this feeling is compounded if you didn't have good parental examples because then you are literally making it up as you go along), you struggle to balance the time your children need from you with the the time your husband wants from you and your friends and your extended family, and your work, and then before you know it you are at the bottom of the list of priorities. You have to mourn the person you were. You miss her like she was friend that died. It aches. You can feel her but she's always just beyond your reach.

Here's where things go awry. This is the space in a marriage that will either make or break it. If you have a partner who sees you're drowning they come and help you, they help you find you, they help you reprioritize, they help you remember who you were so you can learn how to be both the woman you were and the mother you are now so the future version of you is a seamless blend of all the yous, they carry the burden so you can breath again your marriage has a chance. But more often than not one or the other breaks under the weight of this. For really emotionally inept men this is when they decide an affair is a good idea. Why not go get some if I'm not getting any at home. Some one who takes care of themselves. Or a woman who doesn't understand why her husband can't see she's drowning without ever telling him so decides to find someone who actually sees her, or at least she thinks he does. There are variations here, husband takes on all the work the wife takes the inch of freedom a mile and takes off. The husband is told repeatedly how to help or what the wife needs and he doesn't listen. That version can go on for years before she starts looking for some one who can see her and hear her. Or They both build resentments in this space and they both fail each other over and over again for years until the marriage is broken and someone sees the only way out is something that will blow the whole thing up because there's nothing particularly horrible about their spouse or the marriage, but there's nothing great about it either. So they go big and start a new relationship before they end the dying one just to feel something and to burn the bridge so there's no going back.

The WW in this shows are exaggerated and or realistic version of women who cheat. There is nothing more painful than being in a relationship and feeling completely alone. Feeling like you aren't seen or heard. Feeling like you don't know who you are any more. Feeling like you'd be willing to do anything to just feel something this isn't pain or numb. Now these husbands maybe perfectly wonderful mates or parents, and maybe the wives just never said what it was they wanted or needed or were feelings. Maybe they just didn't care. The thing is as much as we like to group LBS and WAS/WS together in to monoliths humans aren't ever that simple are they?

At the time in my life where I had just ended my affair I had a friend who loved her husband, and loved her home life but she also loved who she was with her side piece. She loved her distraction, she loved the secret, she loved the sex. But that didn't negate that she genuinely wanted both parts of her life. But she unlike me wanted both fully in tact. I was just trying to feel something. I knew my A was going no where. I didn't think we'd get married and have a bunch of babies. I just couldn't live like I was living any more without wanting to die.

The whole time I had my affair I wanted more than anything to be a family with my ex. I wanted more than anything to give my daughter the family I never had. No, I wasn't thinking about him when I was getting my back blown out in the ladies at bar at 1am. And no I wasn't thinking about my ex when I and my AP were just enjoying each other's company over lunch. But those moments are the moments that are frozen in time. You are wholly removed from everything. Out side of those timewarps reality still exists. And the reality was I wanted my family in tact. I wanted a happy home for our kid. I wanted things between us to feel right. I wanted my ex to be the man I needed. I wanted my ex to be the man he promised he'd be. I wanted something anything in our relationship or our dynamic to change to make me want to fight for us. Hell it would've been nice if he was willing to fight for us.

I had an affair for a year. I never loved AP. I had known him a long time. Since we were teenagers We were always friendly but simply that. Honestly we were never even flirty until we were. He was a fantastic escape from my reality. But the whole time I really just wanted things in my house to make sense, to feel right, to be treated the way I deserved. ExH "took me back" I guess. I wanted to leave. I was ready to leave, but he begged and cried and asked that I stay and we work through things. I tried. I really truly tried because he made a lot of promises. He got clean. He got sober. I went through al-anon and a lot of therapy. But he wasn't capable of real change. He wasn't capable of not constantly needing more from me than any person should be willing to give in a relationship.

He put me through some awful things. And I put him through some awful things, but still, we care for each other. At this point I don't think either one of us would go back. I know I absolutely wouldn't. He was very supportive when my mom passed. I was very supportive when his dad was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and had a horrible prognosis. He and his family will always be important to me. We are family even if we can't stand each other most of the time.

When the pain is fresh it's hard to see that a person who could hurt you so badly is just human. It's much easier to make them unfeeling monsters. The world makes more sense that way. But As are never as cut and dry as people would like to believe they are. It's never that simple. It's messy and complex, and there's so much turmoil involved in it. There's so much drama, and yes you created it, but that doesn't make getting through to the other side any easier. I've been able to be as forgiving to my current husband as I am and OW because I've been there. I know how easy it is to make one bad decision after another after another after another because you're in so much pain your numb. It's not a kind thing to do. It's not a pragmatic thing to do. There are a million other alternatives and choices that are far more kind AND pragmatic. But traveling down this road isn't easy for anyone. Even if it looks like your ex and their AP are riding off into the sunset together. Everyone in these situations are falling apart. The cheater just seems to be the one willing to risk any and all collateral damage to paste over that pain.
Very good thread, dont really have to watch the series to understand it.
Life is a paradox of choices, choose wisely..
neffer,
Originally Posted by neffer
As a free time interlude between those series, just take a look at the movie: “The killing of two lovers”.

Oppressive feelings, from start to end….

Tell me then if you feel the same emotions.
I read the tag line ("David desperately tries to keep his family of six together during a separation from his wife.") and then watched the trailer and it looks...intense. I'll check it out when I have some time.

wayfarer,
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Since Sandi isn't around to answer stuff like this, and I was a WW in my first marriage I'll take a stab at this.
Greatly appreciate you sharing your insights. It's always great to hear the perspective from the other side of things. I plan to read your post a few times to let it sink in.
Really good insight Wayfarer. I have some questions below:

Originally Posted by wayfarer
For any of this you need to understand a few things: first being women more often than not cheat because they aren't having their needs met.
I would agree. Men cheat more for sex and ego.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Most women have repeatedly asked for those needs to be met before this kind of stuff happens.
Do you feel they do more directly or indirectly?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Next I don't know that literally any man can understand the psychological fallout of having a child/children. Everything about you and your perspective of the world changes and it has to change. You go from being your own person and understanding wholly or at least mostly who you are to having a brand new version of yourself thrust upon you. A version where you have no privacy, no personal space, no sleep, no time, where 90% of the time you have no idea what you're doing (and this feeling is compounded if you didn't have good parental examples because then you are literally making it up as you go along), you struggle to balance the time your children need from you with the the time your husband wants from you and your friends and your extended family, and your work, and then before you know it you are at the bottom of the list of priorities. You have to mourn the person you were. You miss her like she was friend that died. It aches. You can feel her but she's always just beyond your reach.
I can totally understand this happening. In the series Sex/Lies they did a pretty good job at portraying this happening to the main character

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Here's where things go awry. This is the space in a marriage that will either make or break it. If you have a partner who sees you're drowning they come and help you, they help you find you, they help you reprioritize, they help you remember who you were so you can learn how to be both the woman you were and the mother you are now so the future version of you is a seamless blend of all the yous, they carry the burden so you can breath again your marriage has a chance.
I have to admit I dropped the ball here. Had no clue she was drowning that bad and would have had no idea how to help if I did.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
But more often than not one or the other breaks under the weight of this. For really emotionally inept men this is when they decide an affair is a good idea.
I had an EA early on in our marriage but ended it when she got pregnant. It made me sick to think about it later on.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Or a woman who doesn't understand why her husband can't see she's drowning without ever telling him so decides to find someone who actually sees her, or at least she thinks he does.
100% what happen to me when she struck a friendship with a neighbor.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
They both build resentments in this space and they both fail each other over and over again for years until the marriage is broken and someone sees the only way out is something that will blow the whole thing up because there's nothing particularly horrible about their spouse or the marriage, but there's nothing great about it either.
This also describes us to a T. We had the raw materials to be great, lot in common, both fit, attractive, money, beautiful kids, no addictions, abuse but not the tools to be great.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
So they go big and start a new relationship before they end the dying one just to feel something and to burn the bridge so there's no going back.
I am pretty sure that's what she did by I can't prove OM was in before D. (highly likely)

Originally Posted by wayfarer
The WW in this shows are exaggerated and or realistic version of women who cheat.

Here I have to disagree. You described the one WW to a T.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
There is nothing more painful than being in a relationship and feeling completely alone.

I felt that our last year and a half together and I agree.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Feeling like you aren't seen or heard. Feeling like you don't know who you are any more. Feeling like you'd be willing to do anything to just feel something this isn't pain or numb.

So I understand this part for sure. My question is does the WW think another man is going to take the pain away? Obviously an emotional decision right?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Now these husbands maybe perfectly wonderful mates or parents, and maybe the wives just never said what it was they wanted or needed or were feelings. Maybe they just didn't care. The thing is as much as we like to group LBS and WAS/WS together in to monoliths humans aren't ever that simple are they?
I can 100% say my exw never said "this isn't working we need to fix this or I am not happy".

Originally Posted by wayfarer
At the time in my life where I had just ended my affair I had a friend who loved her husband, and loved her home life but she also loved who she was with her side piece.
This is exactly why marriage is an outdated practice IMO.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I just couldn't live like I was living any more without wanting to die.
Were you in therapy?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
The whole time I had my affair I wanted more than anything to be a family with my ex.
This is sad.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I wanted more than anything to give my daughter the family I never had.
I am sure.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
No, I wasn't thinking about him when I was getting my back blown out in the ladies at bar at 1am.
Spit my coffee

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I wanted something anything in our relationship or our dynamic to change to make me want to fight for us. Hell it would've been nice if he was willing to fight for us.
That's one thing I am very proud of is that I went down fighting to the bitter end.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I had an affair for a year. I never loved AP. I had known him a long time. Since we were teenagers We were always friendly but simply that. Honestly we were never even flirty until we were. He was a fantastic escape from my reality. But the whole time I really just wanted things in my house to make sense, to feel right, to be treated the way I deserved. ExH "took me back" I guess. I wanted to leave. I was ready to leave, but he begged and cried and asked that I stay and we work through things. I tried. I really truly tried because he made a lot of promises. He got clean. He got sober. I went through al-anon and a lot of therapy. But he wasn't capable of real change. He wasn't capable of not constantly needing more from me than any person should be willing to give in a relationship.
That's too bad.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
He put me through some awful things. And I put him through some awful things, but still, we care for each other. At this point I don't think either one of us would go back. I know I absolutely wouldn't. He was very supportive when my mom passed. I was very supportive when his dad was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and had a horrible prognosis. He and his family will always be important to me. We are family even if we can't stand each other most of the time.
Too much damage done. Plus I a, pretty sure she is still not willing to own her side of the street. I am still tight with her family and they are important to me. She is alienated from mine.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
When the pain is fresh it's hard to see that a person who could hurt you so badly is just human.
Very true!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
It's much easier to make them unfeeling monsters. The world makes more sense that way.
Great insight!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
But As are never as cut and dry as people would like to believe they are. It's never that simple. It's messy and complex, and there's so much turmoil involved in it.
So true!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I know how easy it is to make one bad decision after another after another after another because you're in so much pain your numb. It's not a kind thing to do. It's not a pragmatic thing to do. There are a million other alternatives and choices that are far more kind AND pragmatic. But traveling down this road isn't easy for anyone. Even if it looks like your ex and their AP are riding off into the sunset together. Everyone in these situations are falling apart. The cheater just seems to be the one willing to risk any and all collateral damage to paste over that pain.
So this is the million dollar question again for me. Are they so sure that this person is going to take the pain away? Do you think they are right most of the time? Or is it a different situation with a different pain?

I read once that most women who divorce don't necessarily wish they didn't divorce but do wish they would have tried harder to fix their marriage. Do you think that's accurate?
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Most women have repeatedly asked for those needs to be met before this kind of stuff happens.
Do you feel they do more directly or indirectly?

Obviously anecdotal but I'd venture guess more often than not it's not asked or told directly. And I don't want to get into the gender politics of it all but most women assume because they can intuitively anticipate needs that men can. In my personal experience a cis-het guy would be more likely to sprout wings than pick up on the fact that a woman, especially a more A type woman, is drowning. To be honest dealing with neurotypical cis-het men is like dealing with a lot of neuro atypical people. If you don't spell out exact what you need and and tell them that you need it to be done specifically by them it just doesn't happen. And when that's the case, why even bother. Now not only am I doing the heavy lifting in all these other aspects of my life now I have to tell you how to be a partner to me and how to help me? How much more heavy lifting am I supposed to do here? <- This aspect reminds me of The Break Up with Jennifer Aniston i.e. 'I want you to want to do the dishes.' 'Why would I want to do the dishes?'

I do however think there are still a good portion of A type women and women who find their voices who begged for help and we're completely ignored or promises were made and nothing actually changed. The problem is, that has to do with male conditioning. You can't control if that loving man you had is complete sh!t at being a parent with you. And there's no real way of knowing unless they have a kid 50/50 before you got there. Unless you have a MIL that'll warn you you're kind of SOL. My exMIL didn't even know. My ex ILs did everything 50/50 literally everything, if she sorted the laundry, he folded it. If she cooked he cleaned up the kitchen. If she cleaned the downstairs bath he cleaned the upstairs bath. My ex was a sh!tty partner all on his own.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Here's where things go awry. This is the space in a marriage that will either make or break it. If you have a partner who sees you're drowning they come and help you, they help you find you, they help you reprioritize, they help you remember who you were so you can learn how to be both the woman you were and the mother you are now so the future version of you is a seamless blend of all the yous, they carry the burden so you can breath again your marriage has a chance.
I have to admit I dropped the ball here. Had no clue she was drowning that bad and would have had no idea how to help if I did.
The simple solution would've been to just ask. Sage and her stbxh used to do check-ins with each other, regularly. The fact that it didn't work speaks to how bad his MLC is but some of the most successful MRs that I know IRL do these officially or unofficially State of the Union, State of my Partner convos at regular intervals.

The follow up to that is if you know your partner is drowning the solution to how to help is the exact same answer, just ask. How can I help you? What can I do for you? What do you need from me? Goes a long way. More action oriented questions can help to. And it relieves some of that burden of having to direct yet another person in your life. Things like: What if I take the kids to my parents for the weekend and you just catch up on sleep? We have room in the budget for a maid to come in twice a month do you think that would help?

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Feeling like you aren't seen or heard. Feeling like you don't know who you are any more. Feeling like you'd be willing to do anything to just feel something this isn't pain or numb.

So I understand this part for sure. My question is does the WW think another man is going to take the pain away? Obviously an emotional decision right?

This is genderless. Please what I have to say about what WS's are feeling here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2878654&page=6
Cliff's notes version: yes they think the emptiness will be filled if another person fills it, not realizing the holes are within themselves, not even the MR. The MR is just the magnifying glass or the salt in the wound.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
At the time in my life where I had just ended my affair I had a friend who loved her husband, and loved her home life but she also loved who she was with her side piece.
This is exactly why marriage is an outdated practice IMO.
I believe conscientious polyamory is en vouge currently because we're as a whole moving toward the realization that expecting a single person to fulfill all of our needs isn't just impractical it's impossible. Monogamists solve this by leading a fulfilling life and have a support circle that fulfills enough of your needs that the burden doesn't rest solely on your partner. Given my past experiences I gave my current H the option of opening the MR when his A was just an EA. I was drowning in my depression, I knew I couldn't give him everything he needed. And he was not only struggling with my depression but was wrestling with some demons of his own at the time and he was far from fulfilling mine. My H had zero desire to open the marriage up. We had a long discussion about if I was serious or not, and I was very clear I was, but there would be rules and regulations, that an open MR isn't a free for all. And that if we were on the same page it can and does work for a lot of people. He couldn't seem to wrap his head around the concept without thinking it somehow meant being in the Lifestyle. We did discernment shortly after that convo. And I started officially DBing shortly after that. So monogamy it is..lol

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I just couldn't live like I was living any more without wanting to die.
Were you in therapy?
I've been in and out of therapy since I was 12. Right before I started the affair and during the affair I was not. When the affair ended I got back in again.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I know how easy it is to make one bad decision after another after another after another because you're in so much pain your numb. It's not a kind thing to do. It's not a pragmatic thing to do. There are a million other alternatives and choices that are far more kind AND pragmatic. But traveling down this road isn't easy for anyone. Even if it looks like your ex and their AP are riding off into the sunset together. Everyone in these situations are falling apart. The cheater just seems to be the one willing to risk any and all collateral damage to paste over that pain.
So this is the million dollar question again for me. Are they so sure that this person is going to take the pain away? Do you think they are right most of the time? Or is it a different situation with a different pain?
I'd refer to the link I put above. The thing is the AP is a Band-Aid. Yes they think the person will take the pain away, and they do. But it's all a fantasy. Affairs don't exist in reality. They exist in fantasyland where things are uncomplicated and everything is dramatic and lustful. I think for some people the change is what fixes things for them. They are better able to heal themselves in a new relationship or just generally outside of the MR than they were inside. It's kind of hard to find and love yourself when you're in a relationship that you're constantly questioning, and it makes you feel like a crappy person to be questioning it. And I think they attribute it to a new person. When it never really was that. As most of these burn up and die after the high of sneaking around goes away, I don't think many people get to keep the fantasy in their head that the AP was just "The One" and that's why their MR didn't work before.

That being said. My exH and I never belonged together. We were an absolute sh!tshow. And I know very well we aren't the only MR on the planet like that, so IMO I think like 1-2% of these As are actually poorly timed very real, healthy relationships. I saw like 1 on here in the whole time I've been here where the LBH was just a trash H. Even giving his side of things you could see he was just a jerk. Everything was very woe is me but was he was a complete narcissist you could feel it seeping through his posts. I remember thinking, yeah I would've cheated on you too, and if you spoke to me like that I would've told you I did it in our bed on your side. He had no idea how kind his exW was being. If she was anything like me, not forcing the kids to see him after he acted a fool would've been the least of his problems. I really pissed him off once calling out his behavior and he exited the board shortly after that. So I think there are cases where the A is an actual solution, just a p!ss poorly executed one. But I also think they are very few and very far between.

Originally Posted by LH19
I read once that most women who divorce don't necessarily wish they didn't divorce but do wish they would have tried harder to fix their marriage. Do you think that's accurate?
I think almost everyone except abusers and complete narcissists (and the people who leave them) wish they had tried harder to fix things. I think anyone with any amount of ability to be introspective wishes things didn't end the way the did and that they had done things differently. They may never want to be together again, but surely everyone I know who split has regrets about their behavior and choices in that time regardless of what side of the line they fell on.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
This aspect reminds me of The Break Up with Jennifer Aniston i.e. 'I want you to want to do the dishes.' 'Why would I want to do the dishes?'
Not going to lie, when I saw that movie last year I could see a lot of similarities including personalities. I like V. Vaughn got it when it was too late.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
My exMIL didn't even know. My ex ILs did everything 50/50 literally everything, if she sorted the laundry, he folded it. If she cooked he cleaned up the kitchen. If she cleaned the downstairs bath he cleaned the upstairs bath. My ex was a sh!tty partner all on his own.
My mother did everything. My dad never changed a diaper. I think I thought because I was way ahead of my dad I was ok. Plus my ex only worked part time.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Sage and her stbxh used to do check-ins with each other, regularly. The fact that it didn't work speaks to how bad his MLC is but some of the most successful MRs that I know IRL do these officially or unofficially State of the Union, State of my Partner convos at regular intervals.
This was suggested in the limited MC sessions we went to of course too late.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I believe conscientious polyamory is en vouge currently because we're as a whole moving toward the realization that expecting a single person to fulfill all of our needs isn't just impractical it's impossible.
I listen to an Marcus Aubrey podcast and he was in an open relationship and it seems brutal. He's a pretty secure dude and he was struggling with it big time.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I think almost everyone except abusers and complete narcissists (and the people who leave them) wish they had tried harder to fix things. I think anyone with any amount of ability to be introspective wishes things didn't end the way the did and that they had done things differently. They may never want to be together again, but surely everyone I know who split has regrets about their behavior and choices in that time regardless of what side of the line they fell on.
This is what is sad to me. This will be a burden on my children for the rest of their lives because their parents could get together and figure their $hit out.

I appreciate your time and feedback Wayfarer. I may have to rethink my distain for WSs lol. I do understand they are not all the same.
wayfarer - you've given me a lot to think about and let me get back to you on this. i think this is a super interesting and nuanced conversation.
Ditto, thanks WF.

LH, question, how was your M before the kids arrived?
Scenes from a Marriage: Episode 5

So I caught up to Maika and OnlyBent last week, and just watched the final episode as it posted.

A few observations...

***Spoiler Alert***

Definitely way less extreme emotions and drama than previous episodes.

ExWife tells her ex-AP she won't get a babysitter because she tries not to do that on her nights with her daughter. Seemed like a nice reversal of priorities.

He AP is acting like the jilted lover now, trying to get her back and prying into her love life.

His mom tells him "Stay together for the kids. What's so wrong with that? You don't think that's important? 'Oh, if I'm happy my kids will be happy too.' That is non-sense."

His ExW's mom told her not to get married. That he's a great guy, better than anyone she had or will date, but but it's not in your genes to stay married." Reminded me of my sitch...my parents married 4+ decades; my ExW's parents each married 3 times.

So he and ExW are sneaking off to have an affair? Can't ever see that every happening with me and ExW. Seems like a ludicrous notion right now LOL

It's sad how extremely jaded he's become - having affairs, married because of a kid and not in love. Reminds me of some of the recent discussions on the board with LH19 saying he'll never look at life the same way again and AndrewP and DejaVu6 saying not sure if they can love again. I wonder for myself as well.

He mentioned it's like "A piece of tape that you rip off and try to reapply - it'll stick again maybe but never as strong"; and his ExW says "it's really sad what you're saying"

They're 4 years into divorce and still hurting. ExW notes "Why does it take so long to break up? And why does no one talk about the fact divorce is just one long endless trauma?"

Overall pretty interesting series. Raw and real. Think the affair and BD episodes were so incredibly realistic and triggering. Not sure the ExW/WS wanting him back in Episode 4 and the two of them having an affair in Episode 5 happen in most cases on here, but who knows.

Thoughts?
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Ditto, thanks WF.

LH, question, how was your M before the kids arrived?
Truthfully before the kids arrived we went through a rough patch where I had my EA. My ex has always been moody and she was never great at having my back. I got close with a woman I worked with who was the opposite. Big mistake on my part that I have always regretted. It was probably the first 8 years with kids things were really great. We moved to a great neighborhood and started living the American dream. After her 40th birthday things started to go down hill and looking back I can now see she was miserable. Instead of trying to get to the bottom of it I enmeshed myself in other areas. It was clear that life did not turn out the way she expected.
Originally Posted by LH19
My mother did everything. My dad never changed a diaper. I think I thought because I was way ahead of my dad I was ok. Plus my ex only worked part time.
There were only 16 weeks of my daughter's life where I wasn't working or going to school. They were the first 16 weeks of her life. I worked 2 jobs pregnant so I could save enough to stay home as long as possible with her. Never in my time with my exH did I work less than 2 part-time jobs or 1 part-time job and school. At one point I had 3 part-time jobs. Another point I was working fulltime and going to school fulltime 15 credit class load. At another point I was working 1 part-time job, doing and internship and a fulltime school 15 credit class load. And still I was left to arrange all the child care. I was left to do all of the care tasks, house keeping, dr's appointments, planning and cooking all the meals. And still I was expected to also pay all of my personal bills like phone, car anything (repair, insurance, gas, maintenance, etc.), any thing fun (movies, coffee, dinner out, etc) , plus for all of the groceries, household items and anything our daughter needed. I was expected to contribute half on any vacation. ExH felt like if he paid the mortgage on house that was only in his name (which he reminded me of often, and paid the gas, electric, insurance etc for the house that that was more than his fair share. Depending on the point in the relationship he made any where between 3-6X what I made. When I say I was financially abused this is what I'm talking about. I spent the last two and a half years we were together squirrelling away whatever money I could. And it still wasn't enough for us to get an apartment on our own. I was forced to move in with a friend who had extra rooms for us because I literally couldn't afford to furnish an apartment. I was more financially secure being D'd from my ex than I ever was with him and that was with the bulk of the money going to tuition and things strictly for our daughter. He felt like I owed the care taking tasks to him. I know this is an extreme version, but the amount of work most women have to do on top of work they get paid for is almost always a complete imbalance. Guys have to understand even if they are nice and help unless you are genuinely doing half the work 50/50 custody sounds like a vacation and if they only thing you have to offer your wife is a paycheck and the occasional date night, a D starts sounding like a vacation too.

Originally Posted by LH19
I listen to an Marcus Aubrey podcast and he was in an open relationship and it seems brutal. He's a pretty secure dude and he was struggling with it big time.
Ethical non-monogamy has little do do with being "secure" and everything to do with an unprecedent EQ. Secure means you think you're better catch than other people. Most "secure" cis-het guys think they can handle open/poly relationships as long as their partner is mostly interested in other women. Until they have to share. Same goes with them thinking it's all good since they get to do the same thing, then when left alone to think about it and not knowing where any of their partners are or who they're with it's all too much. I have one good friend in an open marriage and another who practices polyamory. In my opinion open marriage is a lot easier for people who grew up thinking they'd be monogamous their whole live. There's a primary relationship and the rules around that mean never sacrificing or shorting that relationship I think it's a much easier transition. But true poly life is hard, like really hard for people who've been conditioned for monogamy their whole lives. The amount of communication, and introspection required is far above a lot of people. That's some top tier EQ stuff. On top of that you have to be wholly accepting of the concept of every person being a completely autonomous human being, and that you are not in control of what they think, feel or need. You have to being willing to be completely vulnerable with more than one person. Completely opening yourself up so you can deal with jealousy, needs, and feelings at all times. The only way these relationships work is having the ability to self assess in real time all the time, and being willing to just be completely open all the time. Most people aren't built like that. The fact is if you aren't successful at monogamy you will not be at polyamory. It's monogamy and all the skills you need to succeed in it on 11 all the time.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I think almost everyone except abusers and complete narcissists (and the people who leave them) wish they had tried harder to fix things. I think anyone with any amount of ability to be introspective wishes things didn't end the way the did and that they had done things differently. They may never want to be together again, but surely everyone I know who split has regrets about their behavior and choices in that time regardless of what side of the line they fell on.
This is what is sad to me. This will be a burden on my children for the rest of their lives because their parents could get together and figure their $hit out.

I really need people to stop thinking that D unduly burdens the children of D. What does burden kids irreparably is parents who shouldn't be married continuing to be married. The fact is parents are human just like their kids are. And it takes years and sometimes decades for kids to understand that two good people sometimes just can't make it work. And sometimes it's one person's fault more than the other. Sometimes it's both of their faults. But there's no going back. There's no making 20, 30, 40 year old version of their parents understand things they, the children now understand, or even things that parent gets now in the present. Of course kids would rather be in a home with two loving parents who love each other as much as the love their kids, but kids also would rather be in 2 household where there's no drama. Stability is stability regardless of how it looks.

The bulk of the information on kids of divorce comes from the 80s the peak of D in the US, and a time in which parents very unceremoniously split using kids as pawns, or acting as if the other spouse never existed. Or my favorite of all like the divorce doesn't concern them. Kids who come out of divorces in the last decade, h3ll even maybe the last 2 decades, are not carrying the trauma of their parents like kids of D used to. They aren't looking at their parents and thinking they'll never find love because this is what it's like. We've learned so much. Every one has learned so much, and we all try to do better.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I really need people to stop thinking that D unduly burdens the children of D. What does burden kids irreparably is parents who shouldn't be married continuing to be married. The fact is parents are human just like their kids are. And it takes years and sometimes decades for kids to understand that two good people sometimes just can't make it work. And sometimes it's one person's fault more than the other. Sometimes it's both of their faults. But there's no going back. There's no making 20, 30, 40 year old version of their parents understand things they, the children now understand, or even things that parent gets now in the present. Of course kids would rather be in a home with two loving parents who love each other as much as the love their kids, but kids also would rather be in 2 household where there's no drama. Stability is stability regardless of how it looks.

The only problem I have with this is how do you go from dating, getting engaged, getting married, starting a family together to "shouldn't be married". Too be honest, and I apologize if this isn't PC, the only time I have witnessed this is what the starting the family came before the engagement and marriage. To get from the steps above to "shouldn't be married" involves either one spouse being a wolf in sheep's clothing, or an awful lot of red-flag ignoring by one or both spouses.

However, I think that "two good people sometimes just can't make it work" is by far the minority. Of course this is assuming we can even judge what "good" people are. Are people good despite their choices? Can a spouse that cheats still be considered a "good" person? I was a pretty horrible husband. Does that define me? Or does the fact that I was good in other areas of my life (good parent, good son, good employee) outweigh that?

Obviously, opinions will vary. And I do agree that kids would rather be FROM a broken home than IN a broken home. But judging whether people are good or not is way above my pay grade.
I agree, way, regarding the burden on the kids. Kids don’t feel the burden unless the parents put the burden on them.

There is not some awful burden to bare if there is good coparenting, no using kids as pawns, no bad mouthing the other parent. The kids are fine if the parents handle their sh!t well. My daughter is a perfect example. Yea, granted she doesn’t know life anymore other way, but my ex and show no animosity towards eachother, we have her best interests at heart and try to get on the same page about issues and she is really thriving . Is having to go back and forth a pain in the A sometimes? Sure. Did she used to get upset she didn’t understand why she saw me more than her dad? Yeah.

But she doesn’t bare any burdens. Some inconvience perhaps . But I don’t really think divorce colors kids futures if they don’t feel the burden which is the responsibility of the parents. It to put it on them. I do not see my daughter in therapy kn the future saying how her parents divorce is the cause of problems. I probably see my daughter maybe being in therapy, because her dad doesn’t know how to treat people and can be quite mean and hurtful. But that would have been even worse if she was exposed to that every day of her life when her parents were together
Ok to clarify more I am not one of the people who think kids who come from divorce are doomed to a life time of misery and despair for the rest of their lives.

It is a burden. Case in point last week my son wanted to watch a football game with me on his moms night. She hadn’t seen him in five days so she said no. I understood her point. My son couldn’t watch the game with me so it was a burden on him. Will he get over it. Yep. Bet he already did. That’s just one microcosm of the next 25 years because his parents couldn’t figure out how to meet each other’s needs and stay married.
It’s also a burden when you have a commitment of an event and miss a sports game. Happens all the time. In regular life. To everyone .
Yep and this is just an additional burden.
My kid missed her step grandmothers 70th birthday party yesterday because she has a cold and have Anita around old people. She was sad and over it pretty fast. Not a burden. Just life happening
Definitely not the same thing. If you were still married she wouldn’t be going to the party. If I was still
Married he’d be watching the game with me.
But maybe not. Maybe he would have had another commitment to attend. It’s annoying, that’s all. Nothing more and nothing less. It doesn’t fall into a burden category. He couldn’t watch the football game. If you had plans to do something else that day, he couldn’t watch the football game with you either.

Little nuances. They don’t think much of it .
Wow I was under the impression that this was a safe place where I was aloud to have an opinion. Guess I was wrong.
I never stopped you from having an opinion. We have both have them and they differ.
I think we all know it would be so much better if 2 people can resolve their issues and go on to have a happy stable marriage. A happy stable marriage is always best for the kids. It’s not always possible. I just don’t see son spending time with mom instead of watching a fort all game with dad as a “burden” we all have situations in life where we have to sacrifice what we most desire for another commitment . It will not have any long last effects
Originally Posted by Warfarer
Ethical non-monogamy has little do do with being "secure" and everything to do with an unprecedent EQ. Secure means you think you're better catch than other people. Most "secure" cis-het guys think they can handle open/poly relationships as long as their partner is mostly interested in other women. Until they have to share. Same goes with them thinking it's all good since they get to do the same thing, then when left alone to think about it and not knowing where any of their partners are or who they're with it's all too much. I have one good friend in an open marriage and another who practices polyamory. In my opinion open marriage is a lot easier for people who grew up thinking they'd be monogamous their whole live. There's a primary relationship and the rules around that mean never sacrificing or shorting that relationship I think it's a much easier transition. But true poly life is hard, like really hard for people who've been conditioned for monogamy their whole lives. The amount of communication, and introspection required is far above a lot of people. That's some top tier EQ stuff. On top of that you have to be wholly accepting of the concept of every person being a completely autonomous human being, and that you are not in control of what they think, feel or need. You have to being willing to be completely vulnerable with more than one person. Completely opening yourself up so you can deal with jealousy, needs, and feelings at all times. The only way these relationships work is having the ability to self assess in real time all the time, and being willing to just be completely open all the time. Most people aren't built like that. The fact is if you aren't successful at monogamy you will not be at polyamory. It's monogamy and all the skills you need to succeed in it on 11 all the time.
Interesting. Not my lifestyle, but I'd love to have the level of EQ you suggest that lifestyle takes. I'd ask how, but it's probably as "simple" (and difficult) as seriously working through one of those EQ workbooks. wink
Well we grew up very differently and I’m sure what I view as a burden is way different then your view. They are my feelings though and I shouldn’t have them invalidated.
Originally Posted by LH19
Well we grew up very differently and I’m sure what I view as a burden is way different then your view. They are my feelings though and I shouldn’t have them invalidated.

Yes, you grew up oddly fortunate that a burden is considered not getting to watch a foot ball game one Sunday with your dad. Very very very fortunate. And when you didn’t face as much adversity in your life at all, the D hit you pretty darn hard.

Not getting what your want the way you want it all the time isn’t a burden. It’s just life.

Is invalidated how you feel? I’m sorry sorry you feel that way
Originally Posted by LH19
Definitely not the same thing. If you were still married she wouldn’t be going to the party. If I was still Married he’d be watching the game with me.
LH, I hear you that while without divorce you may miss out on some moments, divorce usually means your kids missing out on MORE quality moments with you and vice-versa. It's a burden, a loss, collateral damage. Given that cost, there must be a strong reason to D for it to be right.
One common thing I do see here is that most LBS/more so LBH’s end up having way more quality time with their kids than they did when they were married. It seems like the positive they pull from a cr@ppy situation .

I am not a divorce advocate. But being through everything I have from such a young age, learned it’s as good or as bad as you make it. Mind you, at times, it could be super hard on me, but thankfully, not for my daughter. I think what keeps many LBS in a cycle of stuck is “ well, everything from now on can be blamed on the walk away because if they would have just stayed and turned our marriages into a healthy one now that I am ready, everything could have been fine, and now everyone is suffering”

And most times, it’s really only the LBS who is suffering
Originally Posted by Ginger1
One common thing I do see here is that most LBS/more so LBH’s end up having way more quality time with their kids than they did when they were married.
Definitely. When you only have 50% of the days around Halloween, you really value those days. I pack in scary movies, costumes, pumpkins, corn mazes, hosting a party, and trick or treating.
Start a new thread and link this one to it. I will link your new thread to this one since I am locking it.
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