Hi All
I'm 4 weeks in to my wife walking out for a second time after 10 years. I have continued this thread from my previous one (hope I've linked it right?):
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2920063Sleeping is an issue and something that I need. Waking early in the morning with dramatic panic attacks are the worst and happens each morning. At the end of the thread (above) suggestions were being made about how to get some more sleep and how the importance of having a routine - which I agree with - and other options to promote sleep.
Does anybody have an idea of these panic attacks and how to cope with those, it may take a couple of weeks for the meds to kick in? Any suggestions most welcome.
Does anybody have an idea of these panic attacks and how to cope with those, it may take a couple of weeks for the meds to kick in? Any suggestions most welcome.
I never had full blown panic attacks but when anxiety would spike I would go for a walk or better a run.
Smilie, very sorry to hear you're going through this! I had never suffered depression or panic attacks in my life, I always thought it was a mental thing and that the people just needed to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and suck it up. After BD I felt like I was handling things pretty well, then about 4 months after BD without warning or trigger, I suddenly spiraled deep into depression with anxiety and severe panic attacks thrown in for good measure. It was then that I learned just how real of an illness depression is, it's not something you just gut your way out of, it's something that requires medical attention. I found myself in a very dark place very quickly. Was suicidal, my insides felt dead already. It was like I had no "soul". I couldn't find meaning or purpose or happiness in anything. The panic attacks were awful, they would strike at work and home at random times, even in the middle of the night when I was asleep. I would wake up completely freaked out with my heart pounding. I would have to get up and go somewhere, but no matter where I went it was no better. It literally felt like I would die at any minute. Just awful. Anyway I did seek out medical attention. They put my on A/D's and something for the panic attacks. The A/D medication started helping after a week or so, but didn't reach full efficacy until 2 or 3 weeks. That's when I started feeling normal again. I can't remember the anti-anxiety meds they gave me but I only took those if I felt a panic attack coming on. They worked great though, they would stop the attack before it reached full gallop.
After a few months I weaned off the meds with the help of my doctor. If I recall, I think we reduced 10% a week until I was finally off of them. It required chopping the pills up into tiny pieces, but it worked. Once I was off I still felt fine and normal, and have ever since (it's been around 8 years).
So do take the med's, and stick to it. Give them time to work, it takes a while. Good luck!
I never had full blown panic attacks but when anxiety would spike I would go for a walk or better a run.
I wake up with mine, literally wake me up. My plan starting from the morning, is to do a workout before breakfast and actually pus through the attack. See if that works! Gonna be tough though!
AnotherStander: Thank you for your personal account. Yes they are nasty and the last one I had was 10 years ago when this happened the first time. So there's that - obviously I can't handle wives leaving me for OM very well!
The panic attacks were awful, they would strike at work and home at random times, even in the middle of the night when I was asleep. I would wake up completely freaked out with my heart pounding.
Yes, exactly this! Every night.
I really didn't want to take A/D's as I don't know how they will effect my Neurological Condition (Vestibular Migraine). Just have to take a chance as I can't keep feeling like this - it's been 4 weeks and it's no better.
I've tried to stay away from the suicide thing, although it's very easy to go to that place and I was there last time, right there. This time I try to hold the thought that nobody is going to drive me to that place, nobody, even though it always seem to come knocking....
Herbal tea on brew and I have a video to watch "Dollar Vigilante" Jeff Berwick, I find him quite amusing. That'll be an hour from 10, so bed at 11. I have taken my meds - Diazepam + first dose of A/D - so hopefully they won't make my dizziness worse. Although it's fairly bad at he moment for screen work, stress and lack of sleep.
Thank you all for your sleep suggestions (previous thread).
I had a better night's sleep last night, although this morning I am feeling dreadful, so extremely fatigued and can't keep my head up very well. This is my 'bad day' feeling of vestibular migraine (VM) usually, bad chronic fatigue, but I'm guessing that this is more the anti-depressant I took before bed. I am really hoping that it's not going to make my VM symptomology any worse. Because of feeling like this, I haven't been able to do my workout through my panic attack as planned. I'm gussing I'll feel better later and I shall do workout then. First panic attack upon waking was more subdued than before, but still really prominent.
I've been thinking a LOT about all of your comments concerning over-thinking this with logic and reasoning. Yesterday I spent 4 hours reading MWDs DR ( I read slow) and I think I'm just gonna have to let this type of thinking go, as you have all said. I remember from last time that I couldn't apply any logic to this and I can't this time, but my brain wants to really badly. The only differences this time are 1) She left all of her stuff behind, 2) she had admitted PA. and 3) She says she wants a divorce - although last time she did say that it was "pointless delaying the inevitable". Last time it is likely that a PA occurred, but I was not aware of it, this time that's really the only significant difference.
Got to get some 'will' together to do housework today. Going out for a coffee with a member of the park meetup group around 2, so that will be good to have a chat about other stuff - I need to try not to keep talking about my sitch as it drains people I think. So hard as it's so raw.
Hi smile,
Sorry to hear you're dealing with those dreaded health problems. I hope you start sleeping better soon.(I remember those long nights, they are awful). What I did might not work for you. I would go for runs and do burpees to wear myself out.
Something that help me with understanding my sitch was, laying all my cards on the table from both sides of my Marriage from the way I saw it and having people from the outside put some of their perspective on my Sitch.
Reading over your Sitch, this is what I see, none of it is an excuse for your wife, but it might help with your understanding of the view from her foxhole.
For the last SEVEN years your wife has been holding it down for the both of you. She has been going to work, paying the bills, coming home to most likely listen to you about your day. You have held a job a few times, but the burden has been on her. And most likely she didn't tell your about how bad her day was, because she was more sympathetic to what your were going through (just my thought, most people don't like to lay their burdens on people they think might have it harder than them). Than, you proposed ideas to help with the financial burden, but your ideas involved her helping with the work, not only helping but you needed her to front the investments to help get your ideas off the ground. Than after all that, you stated she was WAITING on you to get started, and you in turn was waiting on her.
So, to lay it all out
She works
She pays all the bills
She takes care of you
She listen to you come up with ideas about helping with the financial burden
The idea involves her having to help
She has to also front the investment
She has to wait on you to get it started, because you are waiting on her
And she did this for a span of seven years, that's a lot to carry, and most people instead of communicating their unhappiness, they run, they grab onto the first sunlight that their minds and emotions find.
A lot was placed on your wife shoulders, and that load might just have gotten too heavy to carry and lift.
Lastly, about wedding VOWs. Most of make a VERBAL commitment at an alter during, for the most part a blissful time. Most wedding days are exciting and fun. When we make those commitments, we aren't thinking about all the burdens, that happen. So, when I see people reference wedding VOWs as and end all be all for staying committed, it makes me wonder how far from reality we have come. People change, situations change, life change, and so will people values, boundaries and thought processes.
Marriages are like playdoh and less like steel. While the people in the marriage are changing so are their values, boundaries, and outlooks. Marriages and relationship reshape all the time. You have to be able to have space to freely and openly communicate your boundaries and feelings, and if those spaces aren't present, than one or both of the people start to feel trapped. And once something is trapped, the moment it see's freedom it's out.
Keep working on yourself, My personal opinion is the biggest work for yourself is finding independence from having to rely on any person other than yourself. If the computer screen is hurting your eyes, turn the brightness down or buy a tented screen cover. That tinted screen cover works wonders.
Onward and upward
.
I wake up with mine, literally wake me up. My plan starting from the morning, is to do a workout before breakfast and actually pus through the attack. See if that works! Gonna be tough though!
smilieI can relate to the panic attacks. In fact, in my first sitch in 2005 this is how I realized she was having an EA. She was staying up late in the home office down the hall "working". My first inclination that something wasn't right was one night one of my favorite athletes, in one of his final events, was putting on an amazing performance. After he pulled out a win, I went down to the home-office to tell her about it, and when I came into the HO I say her quickly hide a screen. My sub-conscious picked up on it, but in my excitement about what I was sharing I didn't even think about it much. After all, she had been working so hard, staying up so late each night that I just assumed she had her nose to the grindstone. Nope, she had been down there every night IMing with OM.
That night I woke (about 3-4 hours later) from a dream where she was cheating on me, in a full blown panic attack! Heart racing, shortness of breath, chest pains, feeling of complete hopelessness. It was awful. But that was when I started putting all of the pieces together of what was going on.
Panic, fear, loss of feeling of control. Sleeplessness. No appetite. It all comes with the territory. I've often said that MR problems are one of the worst things a person can go through. Time will help. It does get better and easier. But that is little solace while you are still suffering. AS, like many, have turned to ADs temporarily to help. We've had posters here that were so depressed and distraught they started to have feelings of self-harm. That is a huge red-flag that you need professional help! So if you have those thoughts, even in passing, you need to discuss it with a medical doctor to potentially get on ADs.
I can't remember if you said you are in IC or not? I tell LBSs all the time that these sitches are traumatic and you likely are suffering from some level of PTSD. So do not be too proud to go get IC. All LBSs should be in therapy to help them cope.
Steve, he's in a national health care system. And given his issues he can't out of pocket for a private practitioner. He's on a list but still has a few more weeks to go. He's trying, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him that the time line they gave him is true. I had to reach out to my EAP and then out of pocket for my IC. I was put on a waiting list in 2 health care systems for somebody in my network and both told me 8-12 weeks. So his time line isn't too bad in comparison. I was then told at the 8 at week mark that it would like be another 8 weeks but they we're kind enough to refer me to the online CBT and a hotline if I "felt like I was in a mental health crisis." I think hunkering down on self care and being here for support is about there is to offer right now.
Smilie,
did you read the part of Divorce Remedy where Michele discusses depression? It's very interesting how our minds work.
I really enjoyed the Stop Sign Technique she wrote about. Are you familiar with this?
Also, I like to reverse engineer my mood. For example before I would go home in my sitch I would pull over and throw my arms up in the air and yell "YES"! I'd do that for about 2 minutes. When you do this, you become happy. Michele discuss how your mind's happiness can create this behavior, and how the pathway goes in the opposite direction as well. Anyways, don't let anyone see you lol.
Ultimately, if you have to wait, use this place (and TAM). Come here and talk. Air it out. You seem to be getting a lot of responses, and that is great.
Steve, he's in a national health care system. And given his issues he can't out of pocket for a private practitioner. He's on a list but still has a few more weeks to go. He's trying, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him that the time line they gave him is true. I had to reach out to my EAP and then out of pocket for my IC. I was put on a waiting list in 2 health care systems for somebody in my network and both told me 8-12 weeks. So his time line isn't too bad in comparison. I was then told at the 8 at week mark that it would like be another 8 weeks but they we're kind enough to refer me to the online CBT and a hotline if I "felt like I was in a mental health crisis." I think hunkering down on self care and being here for support is about there is to offer right now.
Ah ok. That is crazy. Someone in crisis shouldn't have to wait weeks...............
Ah ok. That is crazy. Someone in crisis shouldn't have to wait weeks...............
Well according to our American health care system a mental health crisis is defined by a person who is a danger to themselves or others, and that's it. And even in that case in my community 51/50'd patients (those deemed a danger to them selves or others by a first responder and involuntarily hospitalized) are treated and streeted as soon as possible. Most stay only the 72 hours the law requires. If you aren't a danger or have money to pay out of pocket you're pretty much on your own.
Hi JoeJoe,
Thank you for your input, I get it, totally and have thought about this while we were together and even held conversation with her on these points.
One thing that I will say, is that I took the time each and every day to listen to her day - always have since we have been together. She comes home and I make a cup of tea and we sit and chat. She knows that she can talk to me about anything, but chooses not to. She did come home from work not so long ago and mention that she felt she had to keep up the atmosphere at work by being happy and smilie, as everyone was always negative and down. She told me that it made her feel fed up, but it was always her attempting to cheer the place up.
She didn't need to cheer me up or listen to how bad my day was, as I wasn't downbeat. Of course, there were times when I felt extra rough and would mention it, it's only natural. But I know she was feeling pressure at work where she felt that she needed to keep everybody cheery and upbeat.
She also mentioned that how her ego had had a boost, as she was attempting to take over the running of the office here as the Partner who was running it was useless. So she felt extra powerful and extra important being given the impression by her line manager (and the person who I think she maybe having the relationship with if it is somebody from work), that she will be running the office.
Everything else you say is correct and I recognise.
It's isn't unrealistic though as we have had the conversations around these points and having a go at generating income streams and she had given the impression that she is fully onboard with the ideas, so I do the work but she never mentions it again until I raise the subject. I have never understood why she would give the impression that she is onboard and then isn't - even when she wanted to create a separate sidelines business for her, I got all that going, she purchased the domains she wanted, I did the website and then when it was just about to be finished, she didn't want to do the content (which only she could do) and instead kept putting it off rather than just say "I've changed my mind". What a waste of time and money (I didn't say that of course, I just told her to say if she didn't want to do it and she said that she did want to - obviously by her actions, she didn't).
Also, she was ill for 7.5 years early on in our relationship. That was stressful. I was worried she was dead at night in bed and used to poke her until she moved. Specialist visits, drug side-effects, scans, biopsies, nearly did once of a biopsy, pregnancy termination. I didn't bail, or faulter, or look at another woman, or look for relief somewhere else, or want a different life - and that was before we were married and only after 1 year of being together.
I'm not making excuses, just saying that the boot has been firmly on the other foot.
As far as marriage vows are concerned, I agree with how things have changed. However, I am old-fashioned in the way that I take my promises seriously, no matter how life changes. If I have an issue I shall bring it up. If I want out, I shall raise the conversation. I wouldn't go all out to plan and exit and lie, deceive and cheat in such a way that leaves the other person an emotional wreck and financially destitute. But, that's just me - I have a conscience, and that is what I find hard to fathom. :-)
She has had the space to discuss her feelings and issues, I am an approachable guy, she just chose not to, so she trapped herself when she didn't have to.
As far as screens are concerned, once again it has little to do with my eyes. Yes they get tired, but only as a result of wearing glasses which set off dizziness. When dizziness increases, eyes become more tired. So it's nothing to do with the screen and everything to do with how the bend of the lenses in the glasses slightly distorts the image, that sets off my neurology. Complicated stuff, but it's visually stimulated.
Yeah, I shall keep doing the work, wherever that brings me :-)
I can relate to the panic attacks. In fact, in my first sitch in 2005 this is how I realized she was having an EA. She was staying up late in the home office down the hall "working". My first inclination that something wasn't right was one night one of my favorite athletes, in one of his final events, was putting on an amazing performance. After he pulled out a win, I went down to the home-office to tell her about it, and when I came into the HO I say her quickly hide a screen. My sub-conscious picked up on it, but in my excitement about what I was sharing I didn't even think about it much. After all, she had been working so hard, staying up so late each night that I just assumed she had her nose to the grindstone. Nope, she had been down there every night IMing with OM.
That night I woke (about 3-4 hours later) from a dream where she was cheating on me, in a full blown panic attack! Heart racing, shortness of breath, chest pains, feeling of complete hopelessness. It was awful. But that was when I started putting all of the pieces together of what was going on.
What a nightmare, that must've been awful for you. In hindsight, my wife's increases in computer usage tended to increase on the weekend. I just thought she was reading social media posts and catching up. Maybe there was more.
On ADs now yes, had thoughts skim quickly across my mind, no more than that.
Not in IC at the moment, not enough money for private. Waiting for health services CBT. Waiting list is 8 weeks. 5 weeks to go, no appointment received yet. I called a relationship counsellor today who works for a charity, left voicemail. Shall chase next wee incase they can help.
did you read the part of Divorce Remedy where Michele discusses depression? It's very interesting how our minds work.
I really enjoyed the Stop Sign Technique she wrote about. Are you familiar with this?
I haven't yet read about depression relating to the spouse. Yes, I am aware of the stop sign technique - and NLP pattern interrupt that has been proving very useful indeed!
Thoughts/mood determine behaviour so it stands to reason that behaviour also feeds back to determine mood. It's a good idea and one that Tony Robbins uses, I believe.
Ultimately, if you have to wait, use this place (and TAM). Come here and talk. Air it out. You seem to be getting a lot of responses, and that is great.
And I am really grateful for everyone here, truly. As I say, I'm also trying to line some IC up if this charity can make it a cheaper affair (as it were!). I'll talk to them next week hopefully.
Hi Smilie,
Just skimmed you first thread. You are lucky to have so many wise posters chiming in.
I'm 54. my lady is 9 years younger. We have been living together for about 10 years. I had 50/50 custody of my 3 kids and her only daughter lived with us 100%. I was officially divorced Jan 09. Was married to my Xwife for 12 years and lived together for 6 before that.
I have been "researching" relationships since the bomb drop. One of the main things I learned is everything that works is counter-intuitive. For example, you fix the relationship by not trying to fix the relationship. She will be attracted to you when you are not trying to attract her. Even here, most people are using the wrong measuring stick to determine "What works". They are looking at how the spouse responds. The measurement should be more about how you behave, respond, and interact. Did you interact the way you planned ect. If not, can I do better the next time.
Another thing that is counter-intuitive. This has nothing to do with your W. Take all the focus off of her and focus on your personal growth. This is your opportunity to become the best version of you. You fix you by taking a hard look internally. Challenge everything you believe. You just found out Santa isn't real and that is OK. Just process everything.
Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984As far as sleep, My doc prescribed some pills to me after BD. I would take the pill, 30 minutes later be asleep...8 hours later wake up. It was great.
Clear your mind. Keep a notepad next to bed. Make a note of anything that is keeping you awake or waking you up. Not an essay, just away for your mind to not worry about that at the moment. Write it down, then tell yourself "I will deal with that tomorrow".
Relax your body. Start with slow controlled breathing. Intentionally relax every part of your body with every breath out. Start at the top of your head and work down to your toes.
Each breath out, count down by 3s from 100. Start higher if needed. I don't make it to 80.
As far as the anxiety, taking a break from your "learning" will help as well as learning to be in the present.
“Po: Maybe I should just quit and go back to making noodles.
Oogway: Quit, don't quit? Noodles, don't noodles? You are too concerned about what was and what will be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present.”; Kung Fu Panda
Just skimmed you first thread. You are lucky to have so many wise posters chiming in.
Do you know, I am really grateful for the number of people that have been responding and helping out. It's actually blown me away, Thank you all.
I like your perspective on everything being counter-intuitive and I think I am finding that out - once again - although this time it's hitting harder. Personal growth is important, I agree and as others have mentioned it is the ONLY thing that I can control - me.
You just found out Santa isn't real and that is OK.
A'int that so true! I have also said to myself "she wouldn't do anything like that". Yeah, she would and...she did!
I've got so many sleep tools now from loads of people, here and in my personal life. Thank you all. I had the best night sleep that I've had for ages last night - 6 hours straight, then 1.5 broken. The past few weeks I was only getting 1-3 hours of broken sleep a night, if I was lucky.
As far as the anxiety, taking a break from your "learning" will help as well as learning to be in the present.
Very good advice. I'm aware of both Ekharte Tolle's work and Sydney Banks - this is the secret I think. So hard to stay there though.....more practice needed.
Thank you.
I'm finding it hard today, very hard. I went to the small park we have here as I couldn't face being at home any longer, the loneliness is so oppressive. I read my DR book and had a coffee. I was reading about MLC and wondered if any of it made sense concerning my W. I then realised that it probably doesn't as she done the same thing 10 years back and it wouldn't be reasonable to assume that one could have more than one MLC in their life.
So it's basically me then. I wasn't attentive enough perhaps. I wasn't very good in bed maybe. And for all intents and purposes I wasn't bringing in an income. So it's me, I am the failure here. I know some of you guys are of the opinion that this is due to the fact that I was unable to work and from her perspective I can see that also. But surely it can't just be this?
Having spent time without her for almost 5 weeks now, I wrote this email to a friend. I am not blaming her in the slightest and I take full blame - if blame is to be cast on anybody. But I have tried to reach out to my wife on multiple occasions and really, as I mentioned to my friend, perhaps it's me that should have gone and left as she seemed like she didn't want to work on our relationship.
Please take what I am quoting as just transient thinking. It's me wondering, that's all nothing more, but hopefully it will help shine some light on things from my perspective. If I was the female here and I had tried for years to speak to my husband to tell him that I wanted us to improve our relationship and life and he wasn't interested, because as a result of those conversations he did nothing, then I would have walked. But me being me, I just keep trying. Banging my head against a wall, why?
Did I mention that I was having a bad day? I feel extremely lonely today. I went to the pub and sat outside overlooking the mere we have here and it was beautiful. I sat on my laptop and started to write about my experience, what has happened over the past 4 weeks and how it all started. A journal if you like. I want to write it down. But as I sat there, all I see is couples drinking, chatting and loving each other. I couldn't help but sit there and cry. That was my life just a short few weeks ago - our life. Now she is sharing that experience with somebody else and that really, really hurts, so deep.
Here's the email to my friend that I typed this morning. I don't know why I'm sharing, I just feel that I need to explain things from my perspective. This was also my thoughts this morning, they may have changed a bit since. My mind is all over the place at the moment and I am finding it hard to work on me, but I'm doing what I can and forcing myself to do the garden and housework.
My email reads like I've had enough, but I haven't. I would still like for us to create a new life, a different life, but I feel that she has never really been up for that. My feelings are that the sharing of this email will bring comments such as "Well, you're better off apart then" and similar, but it's just my thoughts, just venting, just trying to make sense of this and my friend knows that also.
Thank you all for being here, I really do appreciate your time. It's the only thing keeping me going at the moment, I know it is and I will be forever in your debt.
I'm not moaning about her, but clarity is coming and I am seeing so clearly how long I have wanted our relationship and our lives to progress. Years. I hate things being the same and I have wanted to change them for at least 12 years. I have brought this up so so many times with her, at least annually, but she was never interested and always ignored my frustrations.
I should have been the one to leave. It was me that should have realised that the only contribution she was willing to make in this marriage, was a financial one. I should have started my business, got an income and left - but I loved her and wanted her to come with me in the journey to a different life. She didn't want that and chose just to go to work, giving the reason (excuse) that she had to go to work as it was the only income we had. She made be believe there was no other option and she convinced me to put my dental claim money in her account and save it, rather than invest it in us and start some form of business, which she had probably convinced herself would never work.
She never stopped me dreaming, but she snuffed out the flame and conditioned me for helplessness and hopelessness and kept me amused by buying seeds and gardening things, to shut me up and keep me (sort of) content so that I wouldn't keep wanting to progress our life. She just wanted the same thing, go to work, then come home.
It's so clear. Do you know, she has done *exactly* the same thing year in year out since we have been together? She has never once moaned about having to go to work. Even people who like their job moan about the droll of going to work and things being the same, day in day out. She never has, not once. I've spoken to her about this and she says that she likes going to work.
So when i last spoke with her the weekend before she left and mentioned that she seems to hold work in a higher regard than our relationship and marriage, and she SAID that she didn't, she then went and proved me right with her actions. She knew I was right and she thought that I knew that she was seeing somebody else, as I hinted when talking about work, like it was she was seeing somebody else that she just couldn't dump and it felt that I was second to her job and that that's all she wanted to do rather than progress our lives.
She held me back mate. I've said it before but I can see it so clear now and then she turns the tables and blames me for not doing anything about the ideas I have. No, i haven't because she snuffed out the flame. I kept waiting for her to be onboard, but she never would be, as work was her priority. She never worked overtime, never went in early, but she held work as a much higher value than us and gave the excuse that she had to go to work to bring home the money. Short-term yes, but she had the choice to try something different, to work together to build an income stream another way. I told her so many times that I desperately wanted us to build something together, she said she wanted that also but never mentioned it again or did anything to work towards that.
Strange. If I'd have been a woman, a walk away wife, then it would have been me that would have left as she obviously didn't want to work on a business, on our relationship, on creating a family, or on us.
S,
Man I really feel for you because I think you’re a good dude who came down with an unfortunate illness.
People typically end a relationship for one of two reasons. Loss of attraction or because they can’t see a future together. Typically loss of attraction in LT relationships is due to resentment built up over time. I read once for every negative interaction it takes 7 positive interactions to off set it or the resentment builds.
The point is that you are never going to know the true story and quite frankly the answer will never be acceptable to you anyway.
One hour at a time my friend.
I can fully understand that she can't see a future, but she has shown that she didn't want to work towards a future - unless of course it was just with me. Her future was probably her job, being made Partner at the law firm where she works. That's probably all she wanted after all, even though she led me to believe otherwise.
I understand that she has left for good and that's it now. The relationship is over and I have to come to terms with that. I know that now.
There is not one example that I can find where this has happened for somebody else twice like this and the relationship has gone on to be successful. Most of the examples and rhetoric in DR is focused on marriages where the people are still living together and they notice the changes and the work that their S is doing. I know not where my wife is. I don't see her or hear from her. I can't stop thinking when we got together and she left her boyfriend, she didn't mention him once and she went all-out in our new life without a second thought. They had been together 4 years, us 19. So she would probably be doing this again with somebody else, just push me aside and carry on with her life without a second thought. It's so horrible thinking like this, but it seems that this is now my reality.
If there was any type of chance we could somehow start to mend this situation, I would be up for the discussion. But almost 5 weeks on and with Divorce proceedings looming over our heads, I fear that it's now time to say goodbye and it's the last thing I want to do.
It's so awful to think she has just ran without a reason or a discussion. Typical WAW and/or SAS.
I am still dreading her response to my lawyers letter. Part of me hopes that she will reach out wanting to change things, but the realistic part of me knows that she will say to go ahead and divorce for adultery. She boxes up her emotions and she feels nothing.
Man I really feel for you because I think you’re a good dude who came down with an unfortunate illness.
Not sure that the wife would agree that I'm a 'good dude', but yes this is a really unfortunate illness. I have always said that I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.
I could still set up an business though, on my terms and I shall. I am starting to draft this out over the next few days - hopefully it will take my mind of this stuff. I don't have to wait for my wife to come along for the journey now. I don't need to seek approval - possibly something I was waiting for, eh? I need to learn some new coding skills as I can't pay anybody to help. I have a couple of people lined up from a few weeks before my wife left, that would help market it for me by word-of-mouth and to social media platforms. Just need to get on with it.
Hi All
I'm 4 weeks in to my wife walking out for a second time after 10 years. I have continued this thread from my previous one (hope I've linked it right?):
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2920063Sleeping is an issue and something that I need. Waking early in the morning with dramatic panic attacks are the worst and happens each morning. At the end of the thread (above) suggestions were being made about how to get some more sleep and how the importance of having a routine - which I agree with - and other options to promote sleep.
Does anybody have an idea of these panic attacks and how to cope with those, it may take a couple of weeks for the meds to kick in? Any suggestions most welcome.
To say that panic is uncomfortable is an understatement. I struggled with them for years.
The best thing to do is to know that the sensations, although intense cannot and will not hurt you. Feel the panic. Actively challenge it to do worse. Panic is fear of the fear. Fear of the sensations that are being caused cause more sensations. The terror of this feeling is what keeps it alive. "So what-ing" it and actively challenging it work.
In the opening pages of "Breakup to Makeup: How to get your ex back", by Lanie Stevens, a relationship book for women. I read and interesting paragraph:
This is and interesting viewpoint and has been written by a woman in a book about relationships about breaking up and how you are told:
"A 'real man' will sit down with you face-to-face and explain why he does not want to continue the relationship. A man who is a selfish narcissist and has no respect for you will disappear only to re-appear when he has satisfied his needs and selfish desires elsewhere and wants the comfort and safety of your relationship and love. In other words he is not interested in a long-term relationship and only seeks out comfort and love when he desires it and he does not concern himself with your needs. A man who will send you a text message to breakup is a coward and thinks very little of the relationship. The way he breaks it off will speak volumes about him as a person and a potential lifetime."I take it that this will also apply the other way around also? Seeing as my wife left and lied about shy she was leaving - needed space - and that she told me it was over by text, if it does also apply to women (as WAW applies also to men, WAH) then it would make her a cowardly narcissist and would the rules of WAW still apply, I wonder?
Also the authors view is that she would not accept being cheated on and being treated with blatent disrespect. Which I can agree with and if it was anybody else that had treated me in such a way, then they would be history also. So why is the pull to my wife so strong? It was last time also. Why am I contemplating getting her back if I can? After all she has admitted cheating on me and has also left me before and probably cheated on me then also (even though she promised she hadn't). Am I a fool? A stupid fool that will keep lining up to be treated in this way over and over again?
At the moment I feel that I am not. I feel that this is not an acceptable way fro somebody to treat me and that it should be over. I think about filing for divorce as I said that I would and that I need to somehow pick my life back up and piece it back together again.
Then the next hour comes, or the next day and I'm right back where I was shaking in panic and wanting her back. Why would I keep doing this to myself when I categorically know that in all likelihood, if she did come back, that she would do it again sometime in the not too distant future.
If she had had an affair 10 years back and wasn't prepared to own up to it, then she was prepared to build the last 10 years on a lie and now that's she's left again - with the savings - is prepared to see me penniless and homeless. Is this the person that I want to be with for the rest of my life, I ask myself? Really? Where is my self-respect?
So if my brain knows all this then I dumb-founded why I would even contemplate wanting her to return, and yet this is exactly what is happening.
Talk about not being able to work her out, I can't even work myself out!
To say that panic is uncomfortable is an understatement. I struggled with them for years.
The best thing to do is to know that the sensations, although intense cannot and will not hurt you. Feel the panic. Actively challenge it to do worse. Panic is fear of the fear. Fear of the sensations that are being caused cause more sensations. The terror of this feeling is what keeps it alive. "So what-ing" it and actively challenging it work.
Thanks for replying, I have read your thread today and saw my situation embedded firmly inside it. It was an eye-opener of sorts and seeing a similar story from somebody else's perspective has helped my thinking of the situation and whether I would accept being treated in such a manner, especially a second time.
As far as the Panic goes, I should know that it's the fear, but for some reason fail to recognise it as such. When I feel it coming on, you're right, it makes it worse as I start to panic about it coming on. I just wished that they didn't have to exist in the first place. For some reason breathing doesn't seem to work, talking does. Taking talking as a pattern interrupt, anything should work. I was hoping to do a workout to interrupt them, but these tablets the Doctor put me on make me head feel weird until after midday.
In the opening pages of "Breakup to Makeup: How to get your ex back", by Lanie Stevens, a relationship book for women. I read and interesting paragraph:
This is and interesting viewpoint and has been written by a woman in a book about relationships about breaking up and how you are told:
"A 'real man' will sit down with you face-to-face and explain why he does not want to continue the relationship. A man who is a selfish narcissist and has no respect for you will disappear only to re-appear when he has satisfied his needs and selfish desires elsewhere and wants the comfort and safety of your relationship and love. In other words he is not interested in a long-term relationship and only seeks out comfort and love when he desires it and he does not concern himself with your needs. A man who will send you a text message to breakup is a coward and thinks very little of the relationship. The way he breaks it off will speak volumes about him as a person and a potential lifetime."I take it that this will also apply the other way around also? Seeing as my wife left and lied about shy she was leaving - needed space - and that she told me it was over by text, if it does also apply to women (as WAW applies also to men, WAH) then it would make her a cowardly narcissist and would the rules of WAW still apply, I wonder?
Also the authors view is that she would not accept being cheated on and being treated with blatent disrespect. Which I can agree with and if it was anybody else that had treated me in such a way, then they would be history also. So why is the pull to my wife so strong? It was last time also. Why am I contemplating getting her back if I can? After all she has admitted cheating on me and has also left me before and probably cheated on me then also (even though she promised she hadn't). Am I a fool? A stupid fool that will keep lining up to be treated in this way over and over again?
At the moment I feel that I am not. I feel that this is not an acceptable way fro somebody to treat me and that it should be over. I think about filing for divorce as I said that I would and that I need to somehow pick my life back up and piece it back together again.
Then the next hour comes, or the next day and I'm right back where I was shaking in panic and wanting her back. Why would I keep doing this to myself when I categorically know that in all likelihood, if she did come back, that she would do it again sometime in the not too distant future.
If she had had an affair 10 years back and wasn't prepared to own up to it, then she was prepared to build the last 10 years on a lie and now that's she's left again - with the savings - is prepared to see me penniless and homeless. Is this the person that I want to be with for the rest of my life, I ask myself? Really? Where is my self-respect?
So if my brain knows all this then I dumb-founded why I would even contemplate wanting her to return, and yet this is exactly what is happening.
Talk about not being able to work her out, I can't even work myself out!
The reason is that you are grasping to re-estabish a feeling of control over your life.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
Logically you know you should divorce your W. She has cheated before and likely will cheat again. Emotionally you are not there because your brain still sees your W as essential to your survival. This will fade in time.
The reason is that you are grasping to re-estabish a feeling of control over your life.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
Logically you know you should divorce your W. She has cheated before and likely will cheat again. Emotionally you are not there because your brain still sees your W as essential to your survival. This will fade in time.
Wow! So much to unravel there and it makes sense as the feeling of control that I presently have is close to zero. It's like sailing down the river in a boat without a rudder, that's for sure. I think in time, as you say, my emotions will catch-up with my logic and I think that my logic will provide the rudder to steer me in the first instance.
I absolutely know that I cannot go through this again as it almost killed me last time (gone for 9 months) and it has had the same shocking effect this time. That's got to be enough. Whatever she thinks I have done, nothing warrants what she has done towards me a second time and the way she has gone about it. The way of the WW seems to border on evil with how they treat you and at the very least, totally devoid of any and all emotion.
I have just read "The Lighthouse" post, about how the WS is in huge conflict and not really in a position to be in any relationship. That is my only consolation along with the fact that her new relationship probably won't work out either, and that maybe somewhere down the line, in weeks, months or even years, she will inevitably play out the same act again, but this time I won't be the subject of her 'unhappiness'.
So much more of what I have read about Persuers and Distancers have also been enlightening, in as much as her having sex for her own gratification rather than being a joint emotional bonding experience. This has always been like that for her and I've always felt that I was just the 'part' that she needed. I never mentioned that, and probably should have done at some stage over the past 19 years.
Hey Smilie,
From an outsider looking in, you appear to be codependent. Have you read up on codependency before?
Just curious what your childhood was like. Are you parents still together? Were you ever abandoned as a child?
You continually ask why you have such a strong pull towards someone who has repeatedly cheated on and left you, I think exploring your childhood might hold some clues for you.
Also, look into attachment styles. Clearly you have an anxious attachment style, that might be something to look into as well.
This is and interesting viewpoint and has been written by a woman in a book about relationships about breaking up and how you are told:
"A 'real man' will sit down with you face-to-face and explain why he does not want to continue the relationship. A man who is a selfish narcissist and has no respect for you will disappear only to re-appear when he has satisfied his needs and selfish desires elsewhere and wants the comfort and safety of your relationship and love. In other words he is not interested in a long-term relationship and only seeks out comfort and love when he desires it and he does not concern himself with your needs. A man who will send you a text message to breakup is a coward and thinks very little of the relationship. The way he breaks it off will speak volumes about him as a person and a potential lifetime."
I take it that this will also apply the other way around also?
Hi Smile,
I disagree with the author on almost every point. 1) I take offense whenever a woman tells me I must behave a certain way or I'm not a "real man". It's an attempt to shame us to follow gender stereotypes OR comparing us against some ideal man like women are sometimes compared to the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. 2) Most would agree a face-to-face breakup is good form at the end of an LTR barring safety concerns or other special circumstances. However, I don't believe it's obligatory to explain all the reasons why. That makes more sense before ending the relationship. 3) While a narcissist may do those things, doing those things doesn't make you a narcissist as she implies. See the DSM-5 for how to determine if someone is a narcissist.
Seeing as my wife left and lied about shy she was leaving - needed space - and that she told me it was over by text, if it does also apply to women (as WAW applies also to men, WAH) then it would make her a cowardly narcissist and would the rules of WAW still apply, I wonder?
No, your XW and my XGF aren't narcissists just because they broke-up with us over text, lol.
If she had had an affair 10 years back and wasn't prepared to own up to it, then she was prepared to build the last 10 years on a lie
Smile, if I understand correctly, she said she didn't cheat 10yrs ago, and you believe she did cheat. We don't know the truth of that situation. We do know YOU were willing to build the last 10yrs on a lie.
Is this the person that I want to be with for the rest of my life, I ask myself?
Wherever you go, there you are. Why were you willing to do that? You might have had a good reason. You say it led to 10 good years for you before she gave up again and had an exit affair.
Hey Smilie,
From an outsider looking in, you appear to be codependent. Have you read up on codependency before?
Just curious what your childhood was like. Are you parents still together? Were you ever abandoned as a child?
You continually ask why you have such a strong pull towards someone who has repeatedly cheated on and left you, I think exploring your childhood might hold some clues for you.
Also, look into attachment styles. Clearly you have an anxious attachment style, that might be something to look into as well.
Funny enough I have been reading about this a bit. No, both my parents are no longer alive and I did have an abusive childhood. No abandonment issues, but my father was a bully and my physical abuser and my mother was a psychological manipulator, using guilt to control.
So yes, there's probably a lot there. I have had counseling ages ago through my life for this and it's never been an issue and i've been ok in emotional relationships, until this.
Interestingly, my wife was abandoned by her father early on in her life. He went to work away when she was a young child (about 4 or 5) and only came home for a day at weekends. They were never allowed to go and visit him where he worked/lived as he didn't want anybody there. For over 40 years his wife, daughters and grandchildren where not allowed to go and see him. Of course, this is because he had another family....
Smile, if I understand correctly, she said she didn't cheat 10yrs ago, and you believe she did cheat. We don't know the truth of that situation. We do know YOU were willing to build the last 10yrs on a lie.
This of course is a true comment, very true. But she could never remember where she lived when she moved out 10 years back, couldn't remember the street, couldn't remember the house that her 'client' had said she could stay in. I always thought this suspicious.
But you are correct, for sure, we only know my side of the story as fact. And yes I was prepared to live a lie simply because I wanted to believe that she was telling me the truth. I wanted to fix our marriage and be honest. Only she knows if she was honest and truthful and what her intentions were.
Wherever you go, there you are. Why were you willing to do that? You might have had a good reason. You say it led to 10 good years for you before she gave up again and had an exit affair.
Why? Love maybe, commitment, the belief that working on a marriage is the thing that you do and that working on issues in a relationship is what you do to sort them out? I can't say the second time around that 'love is in the air' as a feeling for me at this moment in time - nor anger, nor hate, nor jealousy - just frustration, worry and panic and that's probably about the future.
Yes we've had a good few years, even through my illness, it's been a challenge but we have got some good memories to look back on and of course not so nice ones too. It's a shame I couldn't realise my dream for our life, but she didn't want it and that makes me feel like a failure.
I disagree with the author on almost every point. 1) I take offense whenever a woman tells me I must behave a certain way or I'm not a "real man". It's an attempt to shame us to follow gender stereotypes OR comparing us against some ideal man like women are sometimes compared to the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. 2) Most would agree a face-to-face breakup is good form at the end of an LTR barring safety concerns or other special circumstances. However, I don't believe it's obligatory to explain all the reasons why. That makes more sense before ending the relationship. 3) While a narcissist may do those things, doing those things doesn't make you a narcissist as she implies. See the DSM-5 for how to determine if someone is a narcissist.
Very good points you make, of course. I didn't take the time to consider that actually. My bad.
Seeing as my wife left and lied about shy she was leaving - needed space - and that she told me it was over by text, if it does also apply to women (as WAW applies also to men, WAH) then it would make her a cowardly narcissist and would the rules of WAW still apply, I wonder?
No, your XW and my XGF aren't narcissists just because they broke-up with us over text, lol.[/quote]
Still harsh though. I know I would never do that as it is cowardly and disrespectful in my book, especially seeing as you have been sharing a life together for years. I suppose from their point of view it's the easiest and less emotional - they haven't got to see you upset and therefore don't have the risk of feeling guilty, they haven't got to answer any questions you may have and they don't have to feel upset either. Basically they haven't got to deal with it - we do! :-)
So it's basically me then. I wasn't attentive enough perhaps. I wasn't very good in bed maybe. And for all intents and purposes I wasn't bringing in an income. So it's me, I am the failure here.
All relationships are 50/50.
In my case, I blamed my wife...until BD..then I initially blamed myself. In reality, we both had issues. The way we interacted was broken and neither one of us knew how to fix it. Neither had the skill set.
The good news is you can change. You can grow. You can clean up your 50%. You can behave different. You can interact with others different. You can make different choices. You learn new ways to communicate. You learn as much as you can about attraction and seduction. Drop unattractive traits and add attractive traits to your behaviors.
You have been given a gift, even if you can't see it, we can. Take this time to become happy alone. That doesn't mean you don't interact with others. Just don't make your happiness dependent on having a woman in your life.
She has just as many issues as you, but she most likely will not grow. At some point, she may see all your changes and like what she sees. She will most likely miss her friendship with you. At that point, you will be completely detached and hopefully have a whole new set of skills to deal with her.
Read as many of the quote threads:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2910892Set her free. Do not pursue her. Give her what she has asked for. This is unconditional love.
In my case, I blamed my wife...until BD..then I initially blamed myself. In reality, we both had issues. The way we interacted was broken and neither one of us knew how to fix it. Neither had the skill set.
This is 95% of the cases here IMO.
The good news is you can change. You can grow. You can clean up your 50%. You can behave different. You can interact with others different. You can make different choices. You learn new ways to communicate. You learn as much as you can about attraction and seduction. Drop unattractive traits and add attractive traits to your behaviors.
And I will be looking forward to that. I've always been the one to communicate with everyone anyway. I lived on my own for a while and learned the skills that I needed to be alone, stay alone. It certainly does make you a more rounded person. All I need to do now then, is learn the other stuff I didn't learn the first time! :-)
You have been given a gift, even if you can't see it, we can. Take this time to become happy alone. That doesn't mean you don't interact with others. Just don't make your happiness dependent on having a woman in your life.
I was there before we met. I lived on my own for a fair while - a couple of years almost - she never has. Part of me is dreading it especially in the current climate and the state of the world, but the bigger part of me is looking forward to see what I can create in the world and in myself. And you're right, I can't see it at the moment! :-)
She has just as many issues as you, but she most likely will not grow. At some point, she may see all your changes and like what she sees. She will most likely miss her friendship with you. At that point, you will be completely detached and hopefully have a whole new set of skills to deal with her.
She may see my changes, she may not. I don't plan to be around here too much longer as I want to see if I can break away from the area completely, so we won't be anywhere near each other. I do plan to completely detach as I don't think that I want to go through this again, not at my age. I think that the healing from the damage caused by her affair may take too long, if I were prepared to forgive and try again, but I think that there is much healing to do and feel that we must do that apart. It's making tears run down my face just typing this as I do love her dearly and I always have ... always will and the sad thing is, she knows it. She is the only person that I would put my life on the line for in the blink of an eye, without question. She knows that too. But I'm not sure that I can do this again, not now, not in another few years when she decides to repeat the pattern once again, I just don't know if I could.
Set her free. Do not pursue her. Give her what she has asked for. This is unconditional love.
I have. I'm not. I am. It is.
Lovely words, thank you.
If there was any type of chance we could somehow start to mend this situation, I would be up for the discussion.
Most make the mistake that they believe talking is the solution. Validating her feelings, setting boundaries, completely changing the way you behave as well as the way you interact with her are significantly more important.
Avoid R talk at all costs. If she brings it up, then you validate her feelings. Hone and nail down those skills before you need them. You can practice them with everyone.
If there was any type of chance we could somehow start to mend this situation, I would be up for the discussion.
Most make the mistake that they believe talking is the solution. Validating her feelings, setting boundaries, completely changing the way you behave as well as the way you interact with her are significantly more important.
Avoid R talk at all costs. If she brings it up, then you validate her feelings. Hone and nail down those skills before you need them. You can practice them with everyone.
With her not being here and most likely moved in with OM, I doubt there will be any chance for any interactions. It has been 2 weeks fully NC now, 5 weeks since she told me she wasn't coming home to the day, and she hasn't even yet responded to my lawyers letter. For some reason she seems to be taking her time, even though she was the one wanting things to happen quickly - quick depart, then mention she wants a divorce inside of 2 weeks, then nothing.
My social circle is virtually non-existent to practice these skills. However, whenever I get the chance I will, just in case. I shall see if I can find some examples....
People on this group mentioned IC and I was just wondering what kind people felt most effective? I really want to get something started, as I have been waiting in the health service here (UK) but there is an 8 week wait and 5 weeks in I still haven't heard about an appointment, despite chasing them. I am a little concerned that general/traditional counseling may not be exactly tailored to this situation and wondered what style of IC has worked for them.
People on this group mentioned IC and I was just wondering what kind people felt most effective? I really want to get something started, as I have been waiting in the health service here (UK) but there is an 8 week wait and 5 weeks in I still haven't heard about an appointment, despite chasing them. I am a little concerned that general/traditional counseling may not be exactly tailored to this situation and wondered what style of IC has worked for them.
I assume by traditional you mean CBT. In terms of finding the most effective, I think this comes down to finding the right therapist. My first one after my sitch didn't really work for me, she just listened and I left the session feeling like I had just talked about my STBXW for 50 mins whilst she asked a few questions here and there. The next lady that I saw was completely different. She called me out on my BS and helped my identify my part in the end of the M, and most importantly she gave me questions to answer and tasks to complete to help change those behaviours. She is straight up, doesn't mess about so I know when she says something she isn't just saying it to make me feel better.
In terms of other therapy, I have heard that EMDR is very good for trauma. I looked into on the suggestion of CW and May on this board but all the practitioners in my city are all full with no room for new clients at ethe moment. Perhaps that says something about its effectiveness.
If there was any type of chance we could somehow start to mend this situation, I would be up for the discussion.
Most make the mistake that they believe talking is the solution. Validating her feelings, setting boundaries, completely changing the way you behave as well as the way you interact with her are significantly more important.
Avoid R talk at all costs. If she brings it up, then you validate her feelings. Hone and nail down those skills before you need them. You can practice them with everyone.
With her not being here and most likely moved in with OM, I doubt there will be any chance for any interactions. It has been 2 weeks fully NC now, 5 weeks since she told me she wasn't coming home to the day, and she hasn't even yet responded to my lawyers letter. For some reason she seems to be taking her time, even though she was the one wanting things to happen quickly - quick depart, then mention she wants a divorce inside of 2 weeks, then nothing.
My social circle is virtually non-existent to practice these skills. However, whenever I get the chance I will, just in case. I shall see if I can find some examples....
Focus on you Smilie and make the changes for you. Work under the assumption that she isn't coming back and that you will be ok no matter what happens. I was told this over and over and it took me a while to believe it. I know how desperate the situation can seem at the time, but trust me it does get better.
OnlyBent: Yeah man! I hear you - focus on me. This is what I am doing my best to do. I have {am} trying to go through the acceptance that she isn't coming back and it would appear that this is the case anyway. The worst thing is is I now have to wait for my pension money to be released before I can go forward. I hate this waiting around and would rather be working towards finding a different place to live.
As far as counseling goes, I was actually referring to the talking stuff, not CBT, as traditional. Looks like you had experience of that one. Would rather somebody tell me straight about stuff rather than pussy-footing around, at least you know where you are and then you can deal with that.
Apparently I'm in line to receive CBT, but it looks like another 4 weeks at least before I hear about an appointment. I was thinking of having a few sessions with somebody prior, but wonder if it would be a waste of money just for a few weeks - something I haven't got a lot of at the moment.
Now here's a strange one....
While we were together, my wife was a regular user of the Telegram app. Since she has gone it would appear that she is either no longer using the app on her laptop, or designated another number to the app. However, I rebuilt a mobile phone for her last year to use as a "work phone" while she was working from home during lockdown, so that clients could phone her. This phone is an android mobile phone, but I rebuilt it without Google software to eliminate tracking. I also put telegram on this phone so that she could use that on that number, rather than install telegram on her "live" everyday phone.
Anyway, I have noticed that although her telegram username is not used while she isn't at work, she still looks at Telegram on this phone on brief occasion when she is at work. So rather than take the phone home, she keeps it at work (probably so the OM doesn't know she has a second mobile).
Anyway, because of the brief time that she seems to "check" telegram, she isn't on it long enough to read anything. Therefore I was wondering whether she is checking to see if I have been active. I only use the app to check a couple of group updates during the day.
The strange thing is, this morning I noticed that she was "online" when I was checking my groups and within a very short while of me being "online", she went offline. That was suspicious, I thought. She has also "checked" again mid afternoon and again just now, and I am starting to wonder whether she is just checking this to keep an eye on what I may being doing and whether I'm active ... Either that or I am paranoid. It does seem rather strange though, that she has seemed to stop all of her usual telegram activity on various groups she used to keep up with and now nothing, apart from when she is at work with her "secret" phone. The checking seems to be getting more regular. First she just used to be online at the start of the day, then the start and the end and today she has been online at various intervals. So this is increasing in frequency as the days go by.
Has anybody experienced this type of thing or is it just me thinking that she's "keeping an eye" as it were? It's almost enough to make me paranoid.
S,
I am not 100% sure about what you are talking about but you are definitely being paranoid.
It looks like my thinking has gone strange then
I just need to stop thinking about all this stuff for a while, I'm sure it's driving me mad. It's the first day today that I haven't been so uncontrollably shaking, panicky and overly emotional, but now I'm just going crazy - great! Lol!
Nah you are fine. You are just wasting energy trying to piece things together. Better to spend time on self improvement.
Either that or I am paranoid.
Smile, whether you are correct or incorrect in your assumptions, you are putting an unusual amount of effort into analyzing your ex's motives for logging on or off an app. This is harmful if your goal is to detach and focus on yourself to win her back or to move on. If you can't stop, I would "unfriend" her on that app. I assume there are other channels she could use to reach out to you if she has a chance of heart.
Had some good news today. My pension money that I cashed in on one of my policies is on its way. Lost over 50% to tax though, but it gives me what I need to start looking at moving, so I can spend some energy on that. Feels awful though, preparing to say goodbye not only to my wife, but the entire area I have lived in and around for my entire life. I need a change.
I didn't think the funds would be available so quickly, so I will now spend the time looking as places in the country I can move to and try to find a landlord that will accept that I don't have an income, but can pay a fair few months up front. The money won't last too long though, as it really isn't a lot, but just enough to get me moved and started (I hope).
Smile, whether you are correct or incorrect in your assumptions, you are putting an unusual amount of effort into analyzing your ex's motives for logging on or off an app.
Yeah, I know. This is the bloomin' emotional side of me and the one that keeps wondering - it's a nightmare!
This is harmful if your goal is to detach and focus on yourself to win her back or to move on. If you can't stop, I would "unfriend" her on that app. I assume there are other channels she could use to reach out to you if she has a chance of heart.
I'm not friended or anything. I hardly use the thing only to keep updated on a local group I joined. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it and should forget about it and go on with my life. It sure is hard, but it's gotta be done I suppose. I know that I need to stop hoping. It's all part of that saying goodbye process - the hardest thing to do but something that must be done.
Cheers
I know that I need to stop hoping.
You can HOPE for a bonus at work or peace of earth or to win the lottery or for your wife to return to you without EXPECTING and counting on those events happening. Keep hope. Drop expectations. (:
“Hope” is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops at all
And sweetest in the Gale is heard
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm
I’ve heard it in the chillest land
And on the strangest Sea
Yet - never - in Extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.
I know that I need to stop hoping.
You can HOPE for a bonus at work or peace of earth or to win the lottery or for your wife to return to you without EXPECTING and counting on those events happening. Keep hope. Drop expectations. (:
I haven't got any expectation of a return, truly I haven't. I've let that one go I think and I need to look at moving on, I'm just not sure how to best go about moving to a different location.
To be truthful I have been struggling so much these past couple of days. It's 5 weeks today since she told me that she wasn't coming back. I have spent the past week wondering if I still love her and today I got my answer - I do and I think I always will - but who am I in love with, the 'her' that was with me and who was my wife, or the 'her' that broke my heart? Am I holding on to the person that I married, when that person has gone? She's probably different now is many ways, but the glimpse of the person I saw just before she left and shortly afterwards, was not a good look and somebody that I didn't recognise. That for me is an image I will never forget. Her face looked like she was emotionless and possessed. It's crazy
Today has been one of the worst days for emotions and I bet it will be like this for a while. I feel so desperately sad and my world feels so lonely without her in it - and I sound like a pathetic bloke talking like this too! I know that both of these are an issue, as there should be other things and other people in my life, but there no longer is. I have been GAL as much as I can, been meeting up with a couple of regular people on a weekly basis and today I went down the pub to type some more of my journal (not sure if that's a good thing, but it gets my thoughts out rather than them eating me up inside). I got talking to a couple of people for a while, so that was good. I'm sure that people see me as strange though, unless I'm being extra self-conscious.
My daily work-outs have taken a back seat as these tablets the doctor put me on are making me feel so weird. I put a call out today and they are calling me tomorrow. I'm sure it's fine as they probably take a few weeks to even things out. As soon as my head starts feeling right, I shall pick those workouts straight back up again.
“Hope” is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops at all
And sweetest in the Gale is heard
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm
I’ve heard it in the chillest land
And on the strangest Sea
Yet - never - in Extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.
What a great little poem!
This is hard. Very hard. I feel that I have had my insides ripped out today and I feel that I'm on a downward spiral into oblivion - somebody please tell me that this gets better at some stage. I had a short weight workout this morning and pottering around the house preparing a meal in the slow cooker, all the while my body just shakes and trembles - it will not stop.
It's amazing how everything that I see that reminds me of her, makes me shake. The recipes that I was looking through have all been printed by her at work, labels in the recipe book and her handwriting on the pages. All of it makes me shake even more. Why do I miss her so much, even though she has had an affair?
I need to get the house sorted and things sold that I can't take to where ever I am going to end up, but can't bring myself to do it. Part of me thinks that I need to "show" her that I've been getting ready to get on with my life when she comes to collect her things in 10 days time, by sorting things out and boxing some things up, even though I have nowhere to move to. I am dreading it. Absolutely everything about this situation is not fine and it makes me see how vulnerable I have made myself over the years and how pathetic I now am, as a person ... as a man. I wasn't anything like this before she left and was a rally confident person, but now I am just a quivering pathetic mess. I just wish this was the end, but apparently it's not.
Does this actually get better? Because after 5 weeks it feels like it's getting a lot worse....
Hey Smilie, it gets better, I promise. But don’t just rely on time to do the work, you need to do the work. Think of it like a wound, if you treat the wound like crap, in time it will still heal but with a big ugly scar. If you care for it properly, the scar will be barely noticeable.
Read the advice, do the work, focus on you not her. Trust me, she does not give 1 sh!t about your changes or your progress right now.
Read the post titled “you will not die”. Trust that you are not unique here and that many have been where you are and are in fact now ok, if not thriving.
This is hard. Very hard. I feel that I have had my insides ripped out today and I feel that I'm on a downward spiral into oblivion - somebody please tell me that this gets better at some stage.
It absolutely get better with time. Bent used a great analogy.
Why do I miss her so much, even though she has had an affair?
Because your thinking and acting on emotion and not logic and reason. Just like your W is right now.
Part of me thinks that I need to "show" her that I've been getting ready to get on with my life when she comes to collect her things in 10 days time, by sorting things out and boxing some things up, even though I have nowhere to move to.
This is what is known as the "illusion of actions". You feel you need to do something to win her back. Unfortunately nothing you do will have an effect on her right now.
I am dreading it. Absolutely everything about this situation is not fine and it makes me see how vulnerable I have made myself over the years and how pathetic I now am, as a person ... as a man.
You are not pathetic. You are a man who loves his w. You can see this as a gift so you can now work on yourself so if this happens again you will be ok right away.
I wasn't anything like this before she left and was a rally confident person, but now I am just a quivering pathetic mess.
Be kind to yourself smilie.
I just wish this was the end, but apparently it's not.
It's going to take a really long time for your emotions to level out. One hour at a time.
Does this actually get better? Because after 5 weeks it feels like it's getting a lot worse....
Yes! Absolutely! I am living proof.
This is hard. Very hard. I feel that I have had my insides ripped out today and I feel that I'm on a downward spiral into oblivion - somebody please tell me that this gets better at some stage. I had a short weight workout this morning and pottering around the house preparing a meal in the slow cooker, all the while my body just shakes and trembles - it will not stop.
It's amazing how everything that I see that reminds me of her, makes me shake. The recipes that I was looking through have all been printed by her at work, labels in the recipe book and her handwriting on the pages. All of it makes me shake even more. Why do I miss her so much, even though she has had an affair?
I need to get the house sorted and things sold that I can't take to where ever I am going to end up, but can't bring myself to do it. Part of me thinks that I need to "show" her that I've been getting ready to get on with my life when she comes to collect her things in 10 days time, by sorting things out and boxing some things up, even though I have nowhere to move to. I am dreading it. Absolutely everything about this situation is not fine and it makes me see how vulnerable I have made myself over the years and how pathetic I now am, as a person ... as a man. I wasn't anything like this before she left and was a rally confident person, but now I am just a quivering pathetic mess. I just wish this was the end, but apparently it's not.
Does this actually get better? Because after 5 weeks it feels like it's getting a lot worse....
I'll be honest. Without a good amount of GAL it takes a long time. Sitting and stewing on your sitch will not help you move forward quickly. The LBSs that do GAL the worst struggle the most. You have to be moving forward with your life regardless of your WAS. Though 5 weeks is a very short amount of time. I know it feels like a long time to you, but it is a drop in the bucket. You've read DR. You have been on the board for a couple of weeks now. How is your GAL going?
I can relate, SMilie.
Everything reminded me of her, and I mean EVERYTHING.
She went to the gym with me a few times before we split, and I can recall working out one day after she left me. And I literally dialed in the the machine she used a few times when we were together and it brought up this profound feeling of loneliness and anxiety. I couldn't visit restaurants or stores we frequented for months after we split.
It will get better, I promise, but it does take time.
The passage of time is the only thing that truly works along with doing things to boost your self esteem (GAL, therapy, exercise, and healthy diet).
Hey Smilie, it gets better, I promise. But don’t just rely on time to do the work, you need to do the work. Think of it like a wound, if you treat the wound like crap, in time it will still heal but with a big ugly scar. If you care for it properly, the scar will be barely noticeable.
Good analogy and very much like the one that I use from a coaching programme I trained with. Yes, I am a trained coach believe it or not! Nothing seems to work while you're in it yourself.
Read the advice, do the work, focus on you not her. Trust me, she does not give 1 sh!t about your changes or your progress right now.
I'm sure she doesn't give a hoot about me at the moment and she has clearly shown this once again, as she did 10 years back. "Doing the work" leaves me in a position of not knowing exactly what others perceive this 'work' to be and whether my thoughts match. So I shall explain a bit about what I've been up to.
So 'the work' that I have been doing first and foremost, is to try to put myself into a position where I can maneuver. Initially because she had turned around and left on a dime and taken the savings along with her, I was left with nothing. I couldn't hire a lawyer or arrange to find a place to live (this place is rented) and she started the clock ticking saying that she will pay the rent and bills for 3 months (end of August). So nice of her, until I uncover that I am paying for that with the money she took - what kind of game is this? So for the first 3 weeks (and Lord knows how I was able to do it being a blubbering mess), I was trying to find some money so that I had it available to me.
First off, crypto -> cash -> Hire a lawyer. So that was that sorted. Step 2: Release some cash from a pension to use as moving & living money for the next 12-24 months. That step was completed today.
During that time I have Re-read almost all of DR, heaps of information on the DB Forums and made certain that I don't lose any more weight (lost almost 1.5 stone from stress alone). I have forced myself to eat properly and I have been working out each day, until I was put on anti-anxiety meds. Had to have a few days break, but I'm back working out this morning.
I'm in the process of trying to find a counsellor/psychologist/etc., to help me through the process, as the state-run counsellors here in the UK (NHS), have a backlog of at least 8 weeks for an appointment and I'm not even sure if that's the right type of approach they recommend (CBT). I have a call-out to a relationship counsellor (no callback yet).
I have also been going out for walks and reading in the park and to the pub to type my journal and been meeting up with a few people and talking to others (as I talk with anybody about anything!). I have also re-joined the group where coaches who trained on the same methods as I did, meet online with a weekly live-stream, as I previously dropped out of this interaction because 1) I wasn't actively practicing as a coach and, 2) I spent the time with my wife instead.
Also I have some other training courses that I am planning to study (if I can get my brain to behave), based around psychology stuff that I purchased a short while back - Shadow Mastery (Carl Jung's work) and have been listening to the "Dad Starting Over" Podcast which seem full of useful information not dis-similar to some of the information here.
Oh and housework. Ironing this afternoon while listening to a 1.5 hour session of coaching methodologies. As well as starting to sort through the contents of the house to decide on Sell, Bin, Store or Take.
So, not sure if there's other things I am missing?
Read the post titled “you will not die”. Trust that you are not unique here and that many have been where you are and are in fact now OK, if not thriving.
I bet I'm not unique. Some of the things I have read are exactly the same or very similar and my heart goes out to those people who had to suffer this. You guys have so much knowledge and insight - probably because you've been through the wringer too.
LH19Now there's the thing about the emotions and I would agree. When I have to 'deal' with something - reply to an email, make a phone call, sort out a problem, I am working with my logic & reasoning and the shaking stops and I feel sort of normal. As soon as I finish the emotions start again. So, this is what she is acting on is it? Damn, that's nasty to be in a position where you act on them rather than try to understand what's going on, could get you in to all types of nasty situations! :-) <-- bad go at a joke!
It's interesting about your comment in the "Illusion of Actions" as I don't consciously think that I want her back, so there's the emotions thing again driving that behaviour.
I can tell that it will take a while for emotions to level out, I remember last time I was a wreck for months. Although it may not seem like it, I don't think I'm as bad this time as I have been able to function much better than I remember before. I think these past couple of days have been the worst so far, as the weather has been rubbish so I haven't been out too much and I am thinking about things more in regard to whether she is still having a good time with what she is doing, or whether she's having second thoughts. I think that it's this that's tripping me up. I need to let go of thinking about her and focus on me, as Bent says.
I do tend to beat myself up a bit, so I'll take it easy on myself for a while.
SteveLW / ThorntonYep GAL going good as far as I can tell, I posted a reply to Bent (above) detailing what I've been up to. Not sure whether that's the kind of work we're on about here?
It doesn't help having ALL of her stuff still here. Perhaps after she comes to collect some of her bits it will make things a bit easier. It is horrible though and yes, it triggers anxiety and the shakes immediately in me also. Nasty state of affairs.
Thanks for all of your kind words and sharing your experiences. I know it can't be easy and I appreciate your time more than you will know. Thank you
Hey Smilie,
I know that feeling. It is tough but it 100% gets better in time.
Your mind will eventually start thinking about something else. And then it is normally after being said to start feeling happy again. You can recognize these patterns and plan for them.
Just sit tight and get through the tough times.
A lot of great advice being given on the boards the last few days. Smilie, it will get better. Detaching is key. Don't sit around stewing on the situation. GAL is key to detachment. A simple start is visiting or calling your family and friends more often. Find somebody that provides a healthy support system. If you don't have friends and family nearby, join some meetup groups. Go on road trips. Read books that have nothing to do with saving your marriage. Stay active physically (if you can) and mentally.
Now is the time to detach. That should be the focus. You can work on your flaws in the next stage (by reading relationship books, etc.)
Before you met your W were you happy? If so, get back to being that person. I think all of us lose a part of themselves in an LTR... the things that made us attractive to our spouses. Rediscover those things.
A lot of great advice being given on the boards the last few days. Smilie, it will get better. Detaching is key. Don't sit around stewing on the situation. GAL is key to detachment. A simple start is visiting or calling your family and friends more often. Find somebody that provides a healthy support system. If you don't have friends and family nearby, join some meetup groups. Go on road trips. Read books that have nothing to do with saving your marriage. Stay active physically (if you can) and mentally.
Now is the time to detach. That should be the focus. You can work on your flaws in the next stage (by reading relationship books, etc.)
Before you met your W were you happy? If so, get back to being that person. I think all of us lose a part of themselves in an LTR... the things that made us attractive to our spouses. Rediscover those things.
The people on here have been brilliant and so much good advice and compassion has been shared, for which I am grateful. I certainly haven't been sitting around stewing and feeling sorry for myself, I have been quite active. It's just the quiet moments first thing in the morning and the evening that hits me hard. I have noticed that I'm not so focused on talking about it (the wife going) in detail as much at the moment and it currently feels like it's draining out of my system - I wonder how long that will last. I feel like I'm 'talked out'.
I reached out to a couple of friends (not too local, with one being a 50 minute drive) and they have been brilliant and gave me so much of their time over the past few weeks. I noticed they are pulling away a bit now, so I shall back off and let them recover. I created a mind-map today outlining a plan for my New Life to flesh out some ideas. I also rejoined a coaching group that I was a member of after training to be a coach and had a live meeting tonight. The relationship counsellor called back, she also does EMDR but her rate is too high for me at the moment and there's no option to scale based on income.
I wouldn't say that I was exactly happy when I met my wife way back 21 years ago, but I was content, able to support myself, make a place in the world, was confident and assertive. I always have had a good sense of humour and talk to anybody when I'm out and about, so that has always been a good start and something that attracted my wife (and I've never lost that).
As far as road-trips are concerned, I may just need to go on a couple of those as I need to go look around some new areas to live. I can't decide at the moment where to be, so that'll take some thinking. Also, I have got a couple of courses to study and the house contents to start to sort out - nothing to do with relationships - will stay away from those for a while then.
So hopefully all this will help to detach in a way that can get me in a place to heal.
Hey Smilie,
I know that feeling. It is tough but it 100% gets better in time.
Your mind will eventually start thinking about something else. And then it is normally after being said to start feeling happy again. You can recognize these patterns and plan for them.
Just sit tight and get through the tough times.
Sounds like something to look forward to then - happiness!
Thanks pal.
This is hard. Very hard. I feel that I have had my insides ripped out today and I feel that I'm on a downward spiral into oblivion - somebody please tell me that this gets better at some stage....Does this actually get better? Because after 5 weeks it feels like it's getting a lot worse....
You most likely have lots of repressed emotions. We are emotional beings. Society tells us men not to show our emotions. For example, we learn at an early age not to cry. All those emotions are stuffed down inside. Crying is healthy and releases the emotions. Just find a safe time and place to do it. Some people's safe place is in the shower. IC might be an option. One important thing is to let the tears flow and COMPLETELY feel the pain. I always feel better after a good cry.
The "not safe" place right now is during any interaction with your W. During this phase, your W will be the trigger. Feelings of Sadness, Anger etc. Put your "game face" on and control your emotions during this time. Let them out after the interaction is over.
This is hard. Very hard. I feel that I have had my insides ripped out today and I feel that I'm on a downward spiral into oblivion - somebody please tell me that this gets better at some stage....Does this actually get better? Because after 5 weeks it feels like it's getting a lot worse....
You most likely have lots of repressed emotions. We are emotional beings. Society tells us men not to show our emotions. For example, we learn at an early age not to cry. All those emotions are stuffed down inside. Crying is healthy and releases the emotions. Just find a safe time and place to do it. Some people's safe place is in the shower. IC might be an option. One important thing is to let the tears flow and COMPLETELY feel the pain. I always feel better after a good cry.
I agree with this repressed emotions. The thing is, when my W initially left for some "space" (which I now know was just a ruse to get out of the house with agreement), I was crying for almost 2 days solid. As soon as I received the text message from her to say that she wasn't coming back and that she had feelings for somebody else (aka moved in with someone she was having an affair with), I haven't been able to cry at all - not for her. The only tear I've shed is for my sitch and that's only for a couple of seconds.
I had a chat with a Hypnotherapist (he was also a stage Hypnotist) this morning, and we were talking about my sitch and emotions and my extended issues of Vestibular Migraine. He is also of the thinking that this Neurological issue I have has been created as a result of the trauma from last time this happened 10 years back, as the symptomology came on 3.5 years afterwards, following me continually wondering if the W was going to run out again, if I would come home from work to her gone, if I was saying/doing the right things, etc, etc. He has known other people to have similar issues to mine and known other hypnotherapists to help them, but he hasn't worked with anybody with those issues before now. So it's an experience for him.
I went down this route first as he has a very good reputation and 3 sessions with him is less than the cost of 1.5 session with a relationship counselor, which would have cost in excess of Ł900 ($1,200+) for 9 sessions and she was talking more than 10. So if I can get some results working with him, then that would be a good start. He is solution-focused and was saying that counseling can keep you in the problem as a lot of methodologies and counselors just want to keep talking about the issue. We'll see, but if he can sort my bigger issue also, that would be great. He said that we should be able to get something done for when W comes to get her things, so it won't have such an emotional response. He has done this type of thing successfuly many times for others.
He says it how he sees it though and basically said that " ... she obviously doesn't give a sh!t about you ... ", I would have to agree, her behaviour has shown that she doesn't.
Which leads me on to....
I have also been reading about "The Dark Triad" and covert narcissism and quite frankly upon further investigations there are some astounding similarities to my relationship with my W and WAS/SAS. It's uncanny. Although there were no explosive arguments and she didn't start any arguments at all, she did partake in gaslighting and using a lot of information shared previously against me a lot of the time. Also she has taken everything from me and left me with nothing, not only financially, but as far as self-esteem and self-worth goes and the way she has done it has been meticulously planned, coordinated and executed and just 5 days after she set up a joint account for my pension money to go into that she arranged to cash in and emptied the savings account - all the same traits as the Dark Triad. Also there is an interesting article on "Monkey Branching" and how they keep two simultaneous relationships/affairs going and swing to the one that best suits them. And also what they may do and say to get you back - dropping breadcrumbs - It is exactly how my life has been, with the added element of her in control of everything. The things she said last time she wanted to come back are the same as the things that are typically said. It is spot on.
The "not safe" place right now is during any interaction with your W. During this phase, your W will be the trigger. Feelings of Sadness, Anger etc. Put your "game face" on and control your emotions during this time. Let them out after the interaction is over.
This is very unlikely to happen, apart from on the 10th when she has arranged to collect her stuff. There is still no word from her though, either directly or through my lawyer, so she seems to have slowed down the pace of her wanting a divorce, or she's playing a different game.
I shall have a workout shortly - GAL - see if I can stop these shakes somehow, they are there almost 100% of the time.
Sorry about the verbal diarrhoea, but what I found was very interesting and has given me a different take on things, whether rightly or wrongly, but worthy of consideration.
I have also been reading about "The Dark Triad" and covert narcissism and quite frankly upon further investigations there are some astounding similarities to my relationship with my W and WAS/SAS. It's uncanny.
It's common to re-write, or re-frame our ex's as villains we're lucky to escape who will do poorly without us. Often, the WAS has already done this, and the LBS follows suit when their odds become long.
If your ex was a narcissist and everything was about her--why did she stick around for 3.5yrs while you didn't work, were too clingy, and didn't have a disability? Why did she stick around for 7.5yrs when you had a disability? My XGF's XH left after 25yrs of marriage the month my XGF was diagnosed. Either way, he was on the hook for $$$, but that freed him from the rest. That XH was never diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He was just selfish with baggage around caring for a dying parent years before.
I have a friend with an XH who is a narcissist. The week she won in court against him their son graduated. The son was proud of his hair. The XH shaved the son's head in retaliation. Narcissists lack empathy.
Just as a point of reference I had a step dad with the dark triad, while he wasn't ever officially diagnosed it was unmistakable. People who have that kind of deep disorder display all the symptoms they aren't particularly cherry picked. As my mother was dying he'd talk about the women he'd finally get to sleep with now since he hadn't been "getting any" while she was sick. He would bark at her about banking information she never gave him, probably for good reason, but the brain fog of a nearing death was clouding her mind in a way that even if she wanted to she didn't know it by heart any more. She had to tell him where he could find the info. That was an inconvenience so he'd bark at her more until she was in tears. The day my mother died he picked a huge fight with me because I apparently didn't show him the sympathy he thought he deserved. I watched my mother die after being up for 40 hours straight while he slept comfortably in his California king, but he felt he was entitled to my sympathy and I should've displayed it in the way he wanted. He did and said horrible things to everyone who could see through him and wouldn't bend to his manipulation. He was equally awful to everyone he did manage to manipulate to be under his thumb. I've read everything you've said about WW. She's not an ideal spouse, but she doesn't have the dark triad. I'm sorry.
LBSs at your point in the game are reaching for anything to make it make sense. I've seen the narcissist thing come with almost every single LBS on here at some point. It's very common to hit the anger stage of grief in all this and to villainize the WAS/WS and they aren't angels so I'm sure some of that scorn is well deserved. This stage almost always immediately follows the fun period of the LBS blaming themselves for everything. But relationships fall apart because 2 people fail. And people as whole tend to not be perfect all the time. Humans are fallible beings and can display really, really ugly traits and behaviors like narcissitic tendencies or manipulative behavior. But that doesn't make them a true narcissist. Try to keep in mind WW probably did some pretty crappy things but it's unlikely that she would've stuck with you so long when (and I'm sorry if this seems harsh but from the perspective of a narcissist) had little to offer to her. Narcissist only like to be with people that can elevate their status, provide something for them, and/or they can completely control. Given your situation. None of that was the case in your marriage. Be angry. You deserve that. But don't diagnose. It won't help you, her or make you feel better in the long run.
Also you need to be careful about where the blame lies on the self confidence and self worth thing. You allowing someone the power to make you feel bad about yourself is a you problem not a them problem. If you saw your self as a person of value she could call you horrible things and it would roll off your back, because you know who you are and what your worth is. Self worth is the responsibility of that person alone. So let's focus on that, not diagnosing WW. What can you do to remind you're self of who you are? What can you do for yourself to improve your physical health, your spiritual health and your emotional health? What kind of interests or hobbies or things like that have gone on the back burner for you that you could maybe take up again? Books left unread? Movies or shows unseen? Podcasts or audio books unlistened to? (which have nothing to do with marriage help, self help, or divorce support.)
CWarrior / Wayfarer:Of course you're both right. You see it in me and yes, I am just trying to make sense of stuff in different ways. I was very interested in the behaviour similarities of WW and this type of personality. I have been looking back and questioning whether W does have empathy. For her job she sees people who's relations have died and are going through grief (probate lawyer), and she acts in certain ways towards them, says the things that you are supposed to say and do the things that you are supposed to do. In the 20 years that I have known her (19 together), she has never shed a tear, had a lump brought to her throat or felt sorry for anybody, that she has mentioned. At times also during our relationship, I've had to request that she stops treating me like a client - where she exhibits a different 'persona' in order to deal with a situation, remain detached from it if you will.
She also never sheds a tear if we have an argument and she never shed a tear the day her mother died. She goes quiet, goes inside of herself and locks it away in a box somewhere. I know this, I've seen it, I've lived it. This ability to emotionally detach is, I believe, a defence mechanism to protect herself from hurt. She speaks in a different, more formal way and is totally emotionless and only 'acts' in a way that another person would perceive her to be somebody who is indeed acting in a genuine compassionate way. But she is acting in that way. I have seen this many times over the years and I saw it shortly after we split and I needed to pick up the satnav. She was emotionless, cold, it was horrible to see her 'acting' in that way towards me (such has she did before 10 years previous). For somebody to be able to switch off all emotion is scary. It changes their whole persona, the way they look, the way they hold themselves and their eyes are just dark pools of nothingness. It literally sends shivers down my spine.
This is all I was trying to understand.
CWarrior: The thing is I don't see my ex as a villain. She has done what she needed to do for her and she has chosen the way that she did that. I hate the way she has decided to treat me and that she has stolen the savings and hasn't been nice about anything. I also hate the fact that she says she wants a divorce, tells me to expect a letter and then I get nothing 3.5 weeks later, neither has my lawyer. It all feels like she is playing some kind of game and I'm trying desperately not to play it, especially in my head. Furthermore I don't want to follow her lead in the blame game, certainly not.
wayfarer:As you say some people just do some crappy things and yes she has done that certainly. However, I don't feel anger, at all and I've already gone through the stage of blaming myself for it all, both at the beginning and a few days back. I fully understand that she thought that I had nothing to offer and it is frustrating that she knew that I was trying to get into a position to pull in an income and had it not been for this 'pandemic' that is exactly what would have happened mid last year. It was just unfortunate, bad timing, bad luck - another bad luck feather to stick in my cap that I seem to have had for my entire life.
I am not stupid and fully I know the part that I've played in this relationship. Yes there are things that I could have done better, things I could have tackled better and things that I should have done but didn't. I am not trying to use and 'but's' here to get myself out of responsibility, but being struck down with a condition that I cannot find a cure for that effects every single facet of your life is a struggle, both for me and for her. I have had this for 7 years exactly, she walked out. She was ill after a year of us being together for 7.5 years, I stood by and supported her. No, it's not a peeing contest of who could last the longest and stood by, but this was before we got married and I was committed to the relationship and committed to her. The part I have played in this relationship is giving up my life and my interests in order to spend more time with her. She had nothing to give up as she had no interests and the interests she tried to have since we have been together went nowhere and were discarded just as quickly as they came. We became each others lives and that was one big problem that we both need to work on. However, she probably won't see that seeing as she is under the 'spell' of her new guy, but I see it in me and it was not a good thing to do - to give up on me to devote my time to her.
About the self-confidence & worth, yep I know where that blame lies also. I know that I have given my power away, I know that I have let somebody else control every single area of my life from bank accounts and finances to where I go on the weekend. I've let that happen and she wanted to do those things, she even told me that.
I used to train regularly at the gym and in my home gym, so I've picked that up again. Spiritual: I have started meditating and the emotional side I have been speaking with a couple of friends and have some therapy sorted from next week that may help. I also have another couple of people to contact on this. I like to read books but can't for too long because wearing glasses makes my head feel strange, but if I can suss this Vestibular Migraine issue with the hypnotherapist that will be a bonus.
Interests and hobbies are getting there also, but I need to put more effort into those - martial arts weapons training that I started to pick up last year and I have re-started the coaching training that I did a couple of years back so that I can pick that up again for an income stream in the near future. I listen to podcasts all the time and I'm into interviews and personal development stuff, so do that anyway and I have done for years.
I have book shelves of unread books to read, a hypnotherapy course to study a Shadow Work course to get in to (Carl Jung stuff) and I have language courses in Spanish, French, Italian and Greek. I also have foraging to learn and a karaoke system to sing on - although I haven't felt much like singing recently and was going to pack it all away - perhaps I won't as it's a good stress reliever!
This is some of my GAL and I am actually started doing some of this stuff this week. Actually, I've once again realised how uncomfortable you can get a day or two after a weight workout! I also meet up with a small group of people each Sunday for a coffee and a chat for an hour or so
I appreciate your input though and realise that I am maybe trying to portion blame. I didn't think I was, but perhaps I was just telling myself I was innocently curious. I'll leave all that stuff until later then... work on me first. It is exceptionally difficult to stop looking into this stuff and learning though.
Quietly hiding inside yourself and not showing others emotion is a trauma response. It's actually very common. You never saw her cry because she didn't want you to see it. She's not a sociopath she has issues and learned behaviors she never broke from. Like most of us.
Also I worked in juvenile justice for a decade. I heard and saw horrible sh!t on a daily basis. The kind of stuff that gets CPS in the news. If you don't learn how to detach from your job it will consume you. This is also super normal.
WS/WAS aren't exactly known for for their reliability or follow through. She's not playing mind games. She's just genuinely not considering how it would affect you. Nor does she care. You are out of sight out of mind. And that hurts like h3ll. But that's what it is.
I don't think you're stupid. Nor did I call you stupid. I know you've been doing some self assessment here. But that's not the point. It isn't 100% your fault and it's not 100% hers either. That's the point.
Also she didn't leave you now mainly because you have nothing to offer. The point both CW and I we're trying to make is that if that were actually the case and if she was truly a narcissist she would've left a long time ago.
WAS/WS seem to have a common theme of picking up interests and dropping them quickly.
Situations like this seem to have the common theme of co-dependency in the relationship.
And last little tid-bit, and I don't know why I need to say this, but since I must I must, you are angry. You're clearly anger. It's ok to be angry it's part of the process. Be angry. Sit in it for a while. And then worry about you.
WS/WAS aren't exactly known for for their reliability or follow through. She's not playing mind games. She's just genuinely not considering how it would affect you. Nor does she care. You are out of sight out of mind. And that hurts like h3ll. But that's what it is.
I can't get my head around that. How can you live with somebody and have them part of your life for 19+ years and then not think about them at all, or care about what you are doing? That is cold and callous to me. I don't suppose I will ever know.
I don't think you're stupid. Nor did I call you stupid. I know you've been doing some self assessment here. But that's not the point. It isn't 100% your fault and it's not 100% hers either. That's the point.,
Oh no! I wasn't saying you were! Lol! Crossed wires. I was just stating that I wasn't stupid - or didn't see myself as stupid. I certainly wasn't pointing to you saying I was. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
Also she didn't leave you now mainly because you have nothing to offer. The point both CW and I we're trying to make is that if that were actually the case and if she was truly a narcissist she would've left a long time ago.
Oh I see. That makes sense.
WAS/WS seem to have a common theme of picking up interests and dropping them quickly.
Situations like this seem to have the common theme of co-dependency in the relationship.
That's familiar then, as this is what she has done and the co-dependency has developed certainly and more over time from my perspective as I've dropped more things and interests etc.
And last little tid-bit, and I don't know why I need to say this, but since I must I must, you are angry. You're clearly anger. It's ok to be angry it's part of the process. Be angry. Sit in it for a while. And then worry about you.
But I don't feel angry - not in the slightest. Perhaps it's bubbling up inside somewhere and will show itself when the time comes. Actually, I think that's what all this shaking is about maybe, anger held inside. It's stopped for the moment, first time today I'm not trembling.
Thank you for your insights. It's certainly challenging my thinking that's for sure. I'll go back to my analogy I used earlier about sitting at the Mad Hatter's tea party, it'll makes more sense that way!
WS/WAS aren't exactly known for for their reliability or follow through. She's not playing mind games. She's just genuinely not considering how it would affect you. Nor does she care. You are out of sight out of mind. And that hurts like h3ll. But that's what it is.
I can't get my head around that. How can you live with somebody and have them part of your life for 19+ years and then not think about them at all, or care about what you are doing? That is cold and callous to me. I don't suppose I will ever know.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
But I don't feel angry - not in the slightest. Perhaps it's bubbling up inside somewhere and will show itself when the time comes. Actually, I think that's what all this shaking is about maybe, anger held inside. It's stopped for the moment, first time today I'm not trembling.
From the internet:
As an example, this may be the presentation of stages from a breakup or divorce:
Shock and denial: “She absolutely wouldn’t do this to me. She’ll realize she’s wrong and be back here tomorrow.”
Pain and guilt: “How could she do this to me? How selfish is she? How did I mess this up?”
Anger and bargaining: “If she’ll give me another chance, I’ll be a better boyfriend. I’ll dote on her and give her everything she asks.”
Depression: “I’ll never have another relationship. I’m doomed to fail everyone.”
The upward turn: “The end was hard, but there could be a place in the future where I could see myself in another relationship.”
Reconstruction and working through: “I need to evaluate that relationship and learn from my mistakes.”
Acceptance and hope: “I have a lot to offer another person. I just have to meet them.”
Theses to overlap as well.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
Same when I left my exH I was done, done. Had I gone 4 or 5 years sooner maybe I would've cared or worried but by that point not only had I exhausted all avenues of saving that MR, I had exhausted any ability to consider his feelings in the matter any more.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
Same when I left my exH I was done, done. Had I gone 4 or 5 years sooner maybe I would've cared or worried but by that point not only had I exhausted all avenues of saving that MR, I had exhausted any ability to consider his feelings in the matter any more.
This is interesting to me as you were both done and never looked backed. This site leads you to believe that the WW is in a temporary fog and will later regret their decision. This fog talk IMO gets people here stuck.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
Same when I left my exH I was done, done. Had I gone 4 or 5 years sooner maybe I would've cared or worried but by that point not only had I exhausted all avenues of saving that MR, I had exhausted any ability to consider his feelings in the matter any more.
So for both of these experiences I am assuming that there was some form of communication with the LBS prior to the relationship being severed, with regard to there being a problem that needed addressing? If this wasn't the case, then how had all avenues been exhausted? If this was the case and the LBS did not make any positive changes, then leaving and being 'done', would be understandable.
In my situation, nothing was communicated, ever. The impression was given that everything was fine. There was no clues, no moaning about anything, no comments, no negative statements - absolutely nothing. Therefore my wife having tried everything would be a false statement in this instance, as no issue was ever raised. OK, she may be 'done' but she didn't bother wanting to try anything or give any leeway or 'last chance' scenario or any explanation. She just went with absolutely no indication whatsoever.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
Same when I left my exH I was done, done. Had I gone 4 or 5 years sooner maybe I would've cared or worried but by that point not only had I exhausted all avenues of saving that MR, I had exhausted any ability to consider his feelings in the matter any more.
This is interesting to me as you were both done and never looked backed. This site leads you to believe that the WW is in a temporary fog and will later regret their decision. This fog talk IMO gets people here stuck.
I agree here in some respects and this is a very good point. I have been having a very frank talk with a friend tonight talking to him about this exact thing - about feeling stuck. He basically says that I need to move on with my life regardless and should not accept being treated in this way, especially a second time and should be questioning whether or not it would happen a 3rd time if we worked at trying again. It does make you feel stuck wondering
if the WAS will return and you tend to hold on to that rather than moving forward with your own life.
People mention GAL and acting as if they won't return and that's important, I can see that. But maybe we should be just planning to get on with our lives and not wanting them to come back and treat us like this all over again, a second, third or fourth time? Working to accept that the relationship is over, could be more realistic than hanging on to it and will still work towards GAL and detaching. When do we LBS's say stop, enough, no more?
In my situation, nothing was communicated, ever. The impression was given that everything was fine. There was no clues, no moaning about anything, no comments, no negative statements - absolutely nothing.
You said your sex life could have been better.
Most likely she communicated to you. Maybe not in the way you would like. Or that was effective.
From my personal notes:
Remember, 55% of the message is conveyed visually through body language and facial expressions, 38% is expressed vocally by my tempo, tone and inflections and only 7% verbally through my words. Before speaking, assure all 3V’s are congruent to avoid confusing the listener.
But maybe we should be just planning to get on with our lives and not wanting them to come back and treat us like this all over again, a second, third or fourth time? Working to accept that the relationship is over, could be more realistic than hanging on to it and will still work towards GAL and detaching.
This is where you have your "non-negotiables" completely defined. If they come begging you to take them back, at that point you ask them what they are willing to do. Most likely they will not meet your requirements, then you let them know "that is not good enough". Right now, you have much work to do on yourself and do not need to use up any energy in the hypothetical world.
Hopefully not. Some of us have worn the WAS hat. If I’d left my XW after 10yrs a year earlier, I might’ve still cared, but instead I used that last bit of care to give her another year to change. By the time I left I’d given her all I could and it was time to focus on me and my kids. I was totally done 2 weeks before BD.
Same when I left my exH I was done, done. Had I gone 4 or 5 years sooner maybe I would've cared or worried but by that point not only had I exhausted all avenues of saving that MR, I had exhausted any ability to consider his feelings in the matter any more.
This is interesting to me as you were both done and never looked backed. This site leads you to believe that the WW is in a temporary fog and will later regret their decision. This fog talk IMO gets people here stuck.
The assumption that WAS will regret their decisions is based on the assumption that the LBS was the prize in the relationship. When the WAS is in crisis and leaves a good, even if not perfect, relationship the chances that they will regret their decision later is high. There are other cases though where the LBS was not a good spouse or the relationship was just incompatible for whatever reason. In these situations the chances of R are low
This is where you have your "non-negotiables" completely defined. If they come begging you to take them back, at that point you ask them what they are willing to do. Most likely they will not meet your requirements, then you let them know "that is not good enough". Right now, you have much work to do on yourself and do not need to use up any energy in the hypothetical world.
Thanks for your comments.
In regard to the "non-negotiables" are these communicated to the WAS or just for me? I doubt if she will coming begging to take her back this time, it feels so final somehow. But then it did last time also. Perhaps it's in my head that I'm done with this. I don't know. My emotions are all over the place and keep taking me by surprise.
Yes I do need to work on myself and there is much work to do indeed. Currently one minute I think I'm ok and the next I am completely distraught. I am worrying a LOT about what to say next week when she comes to collect her things, as previously arranged. She can only take personal belongings, such as clothes, etc.
I don't know what to say to her when I answer the door when she arrives - I don't know how to be. I know I need to be polite and firm, but I don't think holding a conversation will help either. This will be the first time we have seen or communicated in 3 weeks. She will be with her sister and I will have a friend here, but I really can't decide how to act towards her. I'm thinking maybe I ask how long she will be and to let me know when she is done and keep it to just that. I'm not even sure if I need to ask how long she will be, but just to let me know when she is done.
This is one of the things that is really stressing me out and even though it's still a week away. I don't know what to do about the house and whether I should make things "super tidy" or just leave it as I usually would - how I usually live. It needs a good tidy and clean anyway, which I plan to do today anyhow.
You said your sex life could have been better.
Most likely she communicated to you. Maybe not in the way you would like. Or that was effective.
This is what I don't get. I don't know how she would have communicated this to me, as there was nothing. There were no advances or behaviour during the day that would have indicated anything. It was me that used to go to her, hug her from behind and kiss her neck as she was doing things, or slap her butt while she is bending over somewhere. I show affection in little ways like that and am not full on and I've always done that in all of the 19 years together. They were always reciprocated but never ended up going further than that.
When she got into bed at night, the absolutely first thing she did was to grab her kindle, turn it on and start to read. I used to say to her "Reading are you", and she would reply "yes". What was I supposed to do? This to me is the communication that she doesn't want anything more. I commented on this at counseling before, 9-10 years back. She has done this for years. The times she gets into bed and wants a "cuddle" are the times she is open to sex. On her terms and not very often. Yes, I have made advances and that's never been refused, but this reading in bed thing has always been a thing and has always been a barrier. It would be nice if she got into bed and laid there and chatted for a while, rather than grabbing the device before she even gets comfortable and straight away as she gets into bed. To me the only signal her is, "No sex".
I truly cannot see how she has communicated anything different. I am aware of the communication "3V's" having been through Master NLP Practitioner Training. What I am not getting here, where was this communication or more importantly, HOW was this communication. Because quite simply, I haven't seen it or heard it in the slightest. This is what's confusing the hell out of me.
The assumption that WAS will regret their decisions is based on the assumption that the LBS was the prize in the relationship. When the WAS is in crisis and leaves a good, even if not perfect, relationship the chances that they will regret their decision later is high. There are other cases though where the LBS was not a good spouse or the relationship was just incompatible for whatever reason. In these situations the chances of R are low
I also suppose that the 'quality' of the relationship is subjective to the WAS. As far as I am concerned, although not fantastically brilliant, we had a very good relationship. Accepted that I have not been able to bring in a income for a while and sex was sporadic since she last walked away, the rest of the relationship was good. We always laughed, joked, were silly, held hands both while out and while sitting on the sofa, done certain things at certain times on certain days and laughed about those. Always joking around and coming out with amusing things. Always helping her and supporting her for her work, even compiling project plans and charts for things she was tasks with doing. That's one thing she said she loved about me.
To me, the relationship was good, with very few negative events such as arguments and of course, could have certainly have been better. Not to say we didn't have disagreements, but they were few and far between and annually if that and very brief. Obviously it wasn't enough though and money and sex too a higher priority, it would seem.
S,
There is a great podcast on YouTube by Diann Wingert called midlife awakening. It’s very common for a woman between 40-50 to out of no where wake up questioning is this all there is to life and whether they love their husband. This could be all about her and the affair. Regardless it’s out of your control.
S,
There is a great podcast on YouTube by Diann Wingert called midlife awakening. It’s very common for a woman between 40-50 to out of no where wake up questioning is this all there is to life and whether they love their husband. This could be all about her and the affair. Regardless it’s out of your control.
I shall see if I can find it. Thanks.
I have had a realisation this morning and it hit me like a brick on the side of the head. My wife has left for a one-off fling, I'm almost sure.
I was thinking that is was a longer term thing, but I see the pattern now....
About 5 or 6 weeks prior to her leaving we were supposed to have started a Cleanse. She had purchased a book called "Cleanse to Heal" and discovered that each symptoms of my Neurological condition was separately caused by the Epstein Barr virus. At that stage she put us both on a Keto diet. I was rather confused why we were doing Keto, but she insisted on doing that as a pre-cursor to the cleanse, to get any rubbish out of my body first.
After a few weeks I had lost a fair bit of weight and she had lost some also, not as much as me though as she drank a fair bit of wine at the weekends. A couple of weeks before she left she also bought a couple of new dresses "for work" and asked me if they looked alright. She has always valued my opinion with clothes and I have picked out loads of new outfits for her over the years that she looks absolutely amazing in. The dresses were alright for work, nothing special or dressy.
So sitting trying to meditate in the park this morning, it hits me. She had us on the Keto diet so that she could lose some weight. Obviously she had her eye on somebody at that stage and she was trying to present herself as being more attractive. Then the dresses.
She had a swollen knee for about 6 weeks prior to that point and something she experiences every few years since she had her auto-immune issue at the beginning of our relationship. I was running her to work and back each day as she couldn't walk of bend her knee, but the second week after she could walk again, that's when she left. So basically she was using me to get her to work and back.
Then when she wanted a couple of days "space to think", that's when I think she was testing the other dude to see if they would be sexually compatible, which is why she then text me a couple of days later to say she wasn't coming home. If they hadn't been compatible or if she didn't have the right feelings, she would have left the door open to come back home as I was expecting her to return on the Tuesday.
It is all so clear to me now. So basically I think she has thrown away our marriage and 19 year relationship based on a very short-term fling and has moved in with the dude. It would also make sense why she seemed unsure about wanting a divorce, hasn't progressed on it at all even though she told me that is what she wanted and also why she hasn't responded to my lawyer's letter.
I feel physically sick ... actually I have been physically sick and haven't stopped shaking since I've seen this so clearly today.
Sorry for the waffle, but I think I've just worked it out.
I am almost expecting her to pull out of collecting her stuff next weekend.
There is a great podcast on YouTube by Diann Wingert called midlife awakening. It’s very common for a woman between 40-50 to out of no where wake up questioning is this all there is to life and whether they love their husband. This could be all about her and the affair. Regardless it’s out of your control.
I have listened to this this afternoon. So that's it then, just have to accept that how it is and they can treat anybody just the way they want and use the reason that they are acting on emotions?
I'm not being harsh, and I can perfectly understand that is exactly what's happening but I can't accept, for some reason, that they are willing to destroy other people's lives in the way that they do. It's awful and because they are women, it's acceptable?
I don't suppose we blokes can do anything about it apart from try to pick up our shattered lives and go on the best we can.
I'm probably speaking wrongly here, but I would absolutely never go out to knowingly destroy somebody else's life, especially the person who I'm married to and have had a good relationship with for 19 years. To lie, deceive and steal for one purpose - sex, basically - is an awful thing to do to somebody that you have told that you love, even up to the week before she left, just to give me the impression things were fine? Please correct me if I'm wrong here (I probably am.... :-) )
Hi Smile,
It's awful and because they are women, it's acceptable?
Careful. Being that guy who hates women or that lady who hates men won't serve you. Men (like myself) and women (like wayfarer) are equally free to leave relationships that don't serve us anymore.
they can treat anybody just the way they want
Of course not. If they punch you, call the cops. If they say nasty things, hang up. Have and enforce healthy boundaries. Their right to extend their fist ends where your nose begins.
I'm probably speaking wrongly here, but I would absolutely never go out to knowingly destroy somebody else's life,
They're not trying to destroy your life--any more than I'm trying to destroy someone else's life when I defeat a competitor or fire an employee. It's sometimes a side effect. She wants to be happy. She thinks you work against that. Maybe they are right (as wayfarer and I were). Maybe they are wrong. Time will tell, no?
It's awful and because they are women, it's acceptable?
Careful. Being that guy who hates women or that lady who hates men won't serve you. Men (like myself) and women (like wayfarer) are equally free to leave relationships that don't serve us anymore.
I certainly don't hate women neither am I taking a stance against them, of course I'm not, I would never do that. I am just trying the best I can to simply understand
Their right to extend their fist ends where your nose begins.
Actually, this is a similar saying I used to use when I was a martial arts instructor - brought back a few memories of the 90's,
They're not trying to destroy your life--any more than I'm trying to destroy someone else's life when I defeat a competitor or fire an employee. It's sometimes a side effect. She wants to be happy. She thinks you work against that. Maybe they are right (as wayfarer and I were). Maybe they are wrong. Time will tell, no?
It's fine that she wants to be happy, but I don't understand why she may see me as working against that, I never have from my perspective and I still can't see that it's not just about sex and money...or just sex. It just seems so shallow, especially if it is a quick affair as I suspect. Of course in a new relationship you're having multiple buttons pressed making you feel besotted, that subsides in a longer term relationship. If she wanted to feel that way why did she not make more of an effort? Yes, I have a part to play also, but it seems like she is trying to find happiness externally, through somebody or something else, but we all know that happiness is found within. So she's basically chasing ghosts just to feel lust(?) in the moment?
If she wasn't trying to destroy me then she wouldn't have emptied the bank account and kicked me full-force in the guts and ripped my heart out. She knew exactly what she was doing, again in my book, and played a really good game behind my back. I think I am entering the anger phase.....
Hi smile,
It's awful and because they are women, it's acceptable?
I certainly don't hate women neither am I taking a stance against them, of course I'm not, I would never do that. I am just trying the best I can to simply understand
Got it. I think the ethical considerations are similar whether it's a man or woman.
brought back a few memories of the 90's,
Funny! Using that phrase brought back memories of the 90s for me, too!
It's fine that she wants to be happy, but I don't understand why she may see me as working against that, I never have from my perspective and I still can't see that it's not just about sex and money.
Ready2Change pointed out lack of sex often indicates other issues. When I stopped having sex with my partner in an LTR, it was because my attraction and respect for them were low. When my XW stopped having sex with me, it was because she was going through depression. You know when your STBXW is done with a relationship, she prefers exit affairs because that's how you met her in the first place.
If she wasn't trying to destroy me.. I think I am entering the anger phase.....
Anger is healthy. She ended the marriage, cheated, and took money from your joint funds. You HAVE been wronged. Your trust HAS been violated. This is emotional damage that will take time to heal.
she is trying to find happiness externally, through somebody or something else, but we all know that happiness is found within.
The internal and the external interplay. Statistically, you're more likely to be happy if you make $75,000 than $25,000, but no happier with $750,000 than with $75,000 in the long run. There are amazing people like Victor Frankl who can find happiness even in a Nazi concentration camp. I believe I'll be more successful pursuing happiness solo than if I had stayed with or resumed a relationship with my XW.
It is interesting.
Exit affairs - yeah, that's how we met and that's what she did before. Red flag - didn't see it as I wasn't aware of such things as red flags before. I didn't really give it much thought to tell the truth, didn't think she'd do it "to me" I suppose.
I still don't know what to say to her when I answer the door to her when she comes for her things next weekend though and that's a major cause of stress for me at the moment for some silly reason.
Exit affairs - yeah, that's how we met and that's what she did before. Red flag - didn't see it as I wasn't aware of such things as red flags before.
I could understand deciding that's a red flag for you in future relationships.
I still don't know what to say to her when I answer the door to her when she comes for her things next weekend though and that's a major cause of stress for me at the moment for some silly reason.
For you, I just looked up my once live-in XGF's final visit to my home.
She said "It's a beautiful day". I asked what she was taking--she said her pots. I went inside and brought out 2 possessions she'd left behind. I pointed out one (of two) potted plants (value: $75-$150) she was taking she'd abandoned during the first breakup. She said I could have it. I said I would like it, unless it's important to her. She said her D gave it to her as a Mother's Day gift. I said take it. The alternative was petty.
I went inside. I didn't want my final interaction to be petty, so I returned and thanked her for transplanting my plants from the pots, setting up the sprinkler for them, and sweeping debris. I went back inside.
Ten minutes later my doorbell rang. I opened it. She now looked emotional. She asked for a hug. I said, "Of course." She teared up. I gave her a 45-sec hug. Crying, she said she still liked me, loved me, and respected me. I said "Ditto." She said, "I'll cancel going on that expedition we both signed up for in May, that was more your thing, unless you want me there?" I smiled warmly but had no answer. I said, "Take care".
As she walked away, I closed and locked the door on a chapter of my life.
Do you need to say anything? Let your STBXW initiate any conversation. Personally, I took the high road, and expressed gratitude when she was being kind. No guilt. No regrets. I might have felt those if I'd either been mean to her or peacocked in an attempt to sway her back. I did eventually get a chance to R.
There is a great podcast on YouTube by Diann Wingert called midlife awakening. It’s very common for a woman between 40-50 to out of no where wake up questioning is this all there is to life and whether they love their husband. This could be all about her and the affair. Regardless it’s out of your control.
I have listened to this this afternoon. So that's it then, just have to accept that how it is and they can treat anybody just the way they want and use the reason that they are acting on emotions?
I'm not being harsh, and I can perfectly understand that is exactly what's happening but I can't accept, for some reason, that they are willing to destroy other people's lives in the way that they do. It's awful and because they are women, it's acceptable?
I don't suppose we blokes can do anything about it apart from try to pick up our shattered lives and go on the best we can.
I'm probably speaking wrongly here, but I would absolutely never go out to knowingly destroy somebody else's life, especially the person who I'm married to and have had a good relationship with for 19 years. To lie, deceive and steal for one purpose - sex, basically - is an awful thing to do to somebody that you have told that you love, even up to the week before she left, just to give me the impression things were fine? Please correct me if I'm wrong here (I probably am.... :-) )
Smilie,
I wanted to you to listen to the podcast so you can understand what’s going through her mind. It takes someone with a lot of emotional maturity to question those thoughts. Your W is more then likely an avoidant and instead of looking inward she looks outward for her next fix of “happiness”. She has developed a pattern and patterns are hard to break unless you truly put in the work to break it. This was likely the outcome no matter what you would have done in the relationship. Even if she were to come back now you would have a tough road ahead of you. If you been following Wayfarer, SteveLW, JoeJoe1 and May, piecing after infidelity is no picnic. Life in general is tough at middle age. In my group there are the divorced ones or the unhappily married ones. I would bet money your W hates the fact she’s hurting you but not enough to deter her from her perceived “happiness”. As far as you using the word “destroy”; remember you get to determine the outcome of your life. It can destroy you or it can inspire you.
CWarrior:
Thank you so much sharing your experience. I really hate to think how much my questions and statements are bringing back emotions for everybody who are joining this conversation. I really respect yours and other people's knowledge here and it helps me makes sense of this awful situation. I just don't know why, if somebody wants out of the relationship, they can't just go and live on their own and break the relationship, but instead have to wait until a 'viable alternative' comes along and set up life immediately with them. This is what I would do as I would also need time for myself to recover and rebuild.
I just wish that I would have had an income to support myself. This is probably a big part of the issue, but I was setting up a business (seminars) just prior to worldwide lock-downs - no seminar allowed. I have also been throwing some other income ideas around over the past few months (that the wife also knew about), so once I've moved house (as it's rented) I can continue with those. But due to the urgency of needing to move within a few weeks - somewhere, somehow - that takes priority.
I've always taken the high-road stance in other areas of my life like this, but for some reason I have a hard issue doing this when it comes to my wife. But, now knowing that the relationship is over (and I truly think it is), it may be a little easier to take that road, especially if I can detach enough. I really wish that I didn't go to jelly in emotional situation like this, as otherwise I'm a pretty tough dude with other stuff! Somehow my wife makes me feel pathetic in these situations that she springs on me as an unannounced surprise.
LH19:
Yes I did understand what may be going on inside of her, but then I suppose I got frustrated and annoyed. I can confirm that she is an avoidant and prefers not to hold in-depth conversations and that she looks for happiness outside of herself - new dresses, compliments from me (and others), chatting to work colleagues - rather than finding happiness inside, even though she is aware of this stuff.
This time I think I will choose "Inspire". I think half of this issue since last time 10 years ago, is that I let it slowly destroy me over time. I have always felt that she wasn't telling me the truth when she promised that she wasn't having an affair last time, as things didn't add up. I decided I suppose, that I would pretend to believe her and it has always niggled at me. Three years back it came back really hard and I insisted that she take me to the house she told me she was living in that she said one of her clients rented out and was in between rental - furnished apparently. I never believed that story as houses around here aren't rented furnished. We drove over and amazingly she couldn't remember the road and then when she finally told me that it was that one, she couldn't remember the house she was living in. She knew that if she told me what house, that I would be banging on the door. Nothing made sense. The only time that everything made perfect sense, was if there was OM involved and then it all clicked into place perfectly. But I wouldn't listen to my logic and went with my emotions. So that's been an 11 year lie that the past 10 years has been built upon. So basically she had an affair inside of being married for just one year.
I am 99.5% certain that my neurological condition was a direct result of living with this and worrying for so long, that it made me ill - maybe from the internal battle raging inside of me. I have always come to that conclusion, because I knew how I felt for the 3 years afterwards and leading up to my violent vertigo attack that never went away and caused a whole host of symptoms that led to me having to give up my IT career.
She wanted me to take her back as the other relationship didn't work out, or she had changed her mind. I was her Plan B and somehow she knew that I was about to throw in the towel and tell her not to come back, I even told her this on the phone 9 months later when she (via her father) contacted me and wanted to talk. She said she wanted to come home and that she wanted counseling (which she initially refused). I told her then that I wasn't sure that I want her to come back. We spoke a couple of days later and I agreed she could. I don't know if I was a fool that time for wanting to get back together, not with that nagging doubt that I had and have always carried with me for 11 entire years.
As far as you're comments go about putting money on her hating hurting me, I know you're probably right but I can't think along these lines at the moment as she has knowingly gone out of her way to ensure that I am totally broke and prepared to see me homeless. She is also purposefully not responding to letters from my lawyer, it would appear. For some reason she either doesn't want to deal with it or is stalling, even though she said she wants it. I may have little option than to start divorce proceedings, as then the courts set the timescales and things need responding to. The reason why I haven't done so yet, is because she told me that she wanted us to be able to talk about things and settle things amicably with lest cost (aka So she can manipulate me into agreeing with what she wants).
I can't explain why I feel this, but I have never felt inside that she really wanted a divorce and still think she is holding out and keeping me as a Plan B just in case she changes her mind again. I think she's waited a bit too long now.
I really wouldn't think that the wife would want to put in the work in reconciling and I don't think I would believe her again if she said she wanted to. She didn't last time and when the counselor broke her arm (not my wife's!) and we couldn't see her for a few weeks, the wife convinced me that we were OK and that we didn't need to see her anymore. I think she was finding counseling uncomfortable and this was a good excuse for her to stop.
Once again, thank you so much for your continued conversation. It's really nice being able to throw stuff around, getting my head in the right place (as much of the time it isn't) and once again, thank you for sharing your experiences - I know it can't be easy.
Just a quick one. I have been struggling with GAL over the past few days as the stress seems so much that I can't stay in the house for long. However, I have been going out, talking to people as I can, reading and thinking. I revisited the infidelity section in DR (I have been reading another book also), re-read LRT and it hit me when MWD said "I'm asking you to remember who you really are." Tears just came out and I sat there in the park and sobbed. Yes, I'm a bloke and I sobbed like a little girl. I had forgotten the man I was and looking back to then, when we first met, I was different. I had totally forgotten who I was due to this wretched illness and the last time my wife left 10 years back. I felt then and I feel now, totally defeated, not just by my wife leaving, but by the hand that life has dealt me these last 7 years. Man did I sob!
I began thinking about my wife and how that situation with me, between us, had been the likely cause of her leaving again. Since she left I have had this strong feeling that she doesn't really want a divorce, I saw it in her and her current behaviour would indicate that also, as much as her not responding to my lawyers letters to progress divorce and not getting her lawyer to send the letter she said she would send (it's been over 4 weeks since she said she wanted one). My actions and words have indicated to her that I am willing to let her go and I have actioned that by getting my lawyer to send hers a letter requesting her intentions and sharing my intentions to file for divorce for Adultery. There was also other content such as repaying money that was taken, requesting interim spousal maintenance (alimony) payments, etc. So I have shown my hand as I told her when she left that if she decided not to come back then I would "give her what she wants". I meant that and it wasn't a threat and I will do that even if it kills me, of course I would. So that's a similar action to the Ultimatum.
Having said all that and preparing myself to let her go - and I still must - I feel that if she reaches out (which is a long shot I think, especially a second time), that I would be willing to consider reconciliation. Am I Stupid? Many other people say "file for divorce", but knowing her background and mine, I think she is hurting bad somehow and I know I have been as I have felt so guilty not being able to bring in an income for so long and I have felt guilty every single day since I have been ill, even though I am still working on developing income and I have been even before she left, but there was nothing to show of course as I was waiting.
But I took my vows seriously, through the good and the bad times, sickness and in health and I meant every word. I wrote my own alongside that also. I believe in love, reconciliation and forgiveness. I know that I can do that as I love her so dearly. It may not be enough I know and it hurts that she has chosen to leave me for good and in this horrible way, so why do I feel that she doesn't want this either?
I am so sorry for posting another post, but I know that some of you are positively working on your marriages. Yes it takes two, a lot of work and time, but surely if she wants to come back a second time, then there must be something worth saving between us, surely? Especially if she decides to return after all this.
Yes I have hope and I am not expecting and still preparing to move on (over 3 weeks NC now), but I feel that after what other people have said elsewhere and that she is a "serial cheat" has lied and deceived, it's deeper than that - for both of us. But I fear that I am disillusioned, hanging on to the relationship and wanting her to decide to return. I have this deep longing for a better relationship between us free of the baggage that got us here. She wasn't honest last time she came back, so we couldn't build it on strong foundations. Perhaps it is too late and I just need to detach fully, give up hope, say goodbye and move on, but this site is supposed to be focused around DB and saving marriages and resolving issues. Am I wrong? Am I grasping at straws?
This is what is preventing me from going forward and working harder at GAL, even though I am doing that as best I can, I can't stop the panic that turns me into a quivering wreck. Hypnotherapy session tonight, perhaps that can help.
Thank you for reading if you got this far. Your time and continued input if very much appreciated and I just wish I could get you all a bottle of wine to say thank you.
Smile,
You are still doing too much reflecting / thinking / trying to find answers IMO.
You said yourself that you are wondering if your illness was brought on by your WW's previous actions.
Yet you are still contemplaiting taking her back if she wanted to R ?
You "wanting her to decide to return" is what you want. You cannot control what she does.
but this site is supposed to be focused around DB and saving marriages and resolving issues. Am I wrong? Am I grasping at straws?
some people would argue that this site is about saving a marriage.
I sit very firmly ( and happily ) and the other side of that fence and believe its about saving yourself - To rise from the ashes and build yourself back up - Walk away with your head held high and with one thing you didnt have before - Knowledge. I have learnt so much from this site, and its helped me in so many ways. I came out of the other side happier than ever, with a better understanding of relatioships and women. Only you can decide how you want to come out of this. People here will give you advice ( which will differ ) - you need to decide what you do with that advice.
She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).
One of your intial posts about your WW having an affair with you speaks volumes - This is WHO she is !!!!
Look at this experience as a learning curve..
One of your intial posts about your WW having an affair with you speaks volumes - This is WHO she is !!!!
S one of my favorite quotes you need to read over and over and digest it. "you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality".
Smile,
You are still doing too much reflecting / thinking / trying to find answers IMO.
You said yourself that you are wondering if your illness was brought on by your WW's previous actions.
Yet you are still contemplaiting taking her back if she wanted to R ?
You "wanting her to decide to return" is what you want. You cannot control what she does.
but this site is supposed to be focused around DB and saving marriages and resolving issues. Am I wrong? Am I grasping at straws?
some people would argue that this site is about saving a marriage.
I sit very firmly ( and happily ) and the other side of that fence and believe its about saving yourself - To rise from the ashes and build yourself back up - Walk away with your head held high and with one thing you didnt have before - Knowledge. I have learnt so much from this site, and its helped me in so many ways. I came out of the other side happier than ever, with a better understanding of relatioships and women. Only you can decide how you want to come out of this. People here will give you advice ( which will differ ) - you need to decide what you do with that advice.
She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).
One of your intial posts about your WW having an affair with you speaks volumes - This is WHO she is !!!!
Look at this experience as a learning curve..
One of your intial posts about your WW having an affair with you speaks volumes - This is WHO she is !!!!
S one of my favorite quotes you need to read over and over and digest it. "you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality".
These two posts are so on point. The only thing I would add is there seems to be some serious correlation to the left behind spouse not giving a rip anymore and moving on with their life and being super happy, focused and seriously living everyday to its fullest and the walk away spouse seeing this and wanting to come back. No promises or guarantees but it’s the best shot. And it can not be fake. They’ll see right through that.
I have been struggling with GAL over the past few days as the stress seems so much that I can't stay in the house for long. However, I have been going out, talking to people as I can, reading and thinking. This is what is preventing me from going forward and working harder at GAL, even though I am doing that as best I can, I can't stop the panic that turns me into a quivering wreck.
That's unfortunate. Whether you have hope and want to save your marriage, or don't have hope and want to move on, GAL is one of the most effective things you can do. Yesterday I struggled a bit. My solution was to join a Meetup and I got in some exercise while meeting new acquaintances I may see again in the future. That was vastly more useful than sitting at home and being in my own head. (:
I have had this strong feeling that she doesn't really want a divorce, I saw it in her and her current behaviour would indicate that also, as much as her not responding to my lawyers letters to progress divorce
My lack of haste in completing my divorce was because I was already free in practice and wanted to focus on my new life. Sometimes WAS's delay to have a Plan B, an insurance policy if OM don't work out. You say that's what you believe happened ten years ago, right? Don't read too much into this.
so why do I feel that she doesn't want this either?
Denial. It's one of the stages of grief.
surely if she wants to come back a second time, then there must be something worth saving between us, surely? Especially if she decides to return after all this.
That doesn't follow. If her Plan A crumbles again, and she returns to you as Plan B, how is that best for you? We know your STBXW doesn't want to be alone, hence the multiple exit affairs.
It takes someone with a lot of emotional maturity to question those thoughts. Your W is more then likely an avoidant
what other people have said elsewhere and that she is a "serial cheat" has lied and deceived
I see her more how LH described above. An exit affair is a symptom of a marriage that was already dead. LBS focus on the AP and are surprised when OM1 is replaced with OM2 and OM3. I'd focus on the dead marriage. The red flag is you didn't know she was still unhappy, presumably because you weren't working for a decade. That points to a communication failure. WAS who are vocal about problems are more sympathetic.
Just a quick one. I have been struggling with GAL over the past few days as the stress seems so much that I can't stay in the house for long. However, I have been going out, talking to people as I can, reading and thinking. I revisited the infidelity section in DR (I have been reading another book also), re-read LRT and it hit me when MWD said "I'm asking you to remember who you really are." Tears just came out and I sat there in the park and sobbed. Yes, I'm a bloke and I sobbed like a little girl. I had forgotten the man I was and looking back to then, when we first met, I was different. I had totally forgotten who I was due to this wretched illness and the last time my wife left 10 years back. I felt then and I feel now, totally defeated, not just by my wife leaving, but by the hand that life has dealt me these last 7 years. Man did I sob!
I began thinking about my wife and how that situation with me, between us, had been the likely cause of her leaving again. Since she left I have had this strong feeling that she doesn't really want a divorce, I saw it in her and her current behaviour would indicate that also, as much as her not responding to my lawyers letters to progress divorce and not getting her lawyer to send the letter she said she would send (it's been over 4 weeks since she said she wanted one). My actions and words have indicated to her that I am willing to let her go and I have actioned that by getting my lawyer to send hers a letter requesting her intentions and sharing my intentions to file for divorce for Adultery. There was also other content such as repaying money that was taken, requesting interim spousal maintenance (alimony) payments, etc. So I have shown my hand as I told her when she left that if she decided not to come back then I would "give her what she wants". I meant that and it wasn't a threat and I will do that even if it kills me, of course I would. So that's a similar action to the Ultimatum.
Having said all that and preparing myself to let her go - and I still must - I feel that if she reaches out (which is a long shot I think, especially a second time), that I would be willing to consider reconciliation. Am I Stupid? Many other people say "file for divorce", but knowing her background and mine, I think she is hurting bad somehow and I know I have been as I have felt so guilty not being able to bring in an income for so long and I have felt guilty every single day since I have been ill, even though I am still working on developing income and I have been even before she left, but there was nothing to show of course as I was waiting.
But I took my vows seriously, through the good and the bad times, sickness and in health and I meant every word. I wrote my own alongside that also. I believe in love, reconciliation and forgiveness. I know that I can do that as I love her so dearly. It may not be enough I know and it hurts that she has chosen to leave me for good and in this horrible way, so why do I feel that she doesn't want this either?
I am so sorry for posting another post, but I know that some of you are positively working on your marriages. Yes it takes two, a lot of work and time, but surely if she wants to come back a second time, then there must be something worth saving between us, surely? Especially if she decides to return after all this.
Yes I have hope and I am not expecting and still preparing to move on (over 3 weeks NC now), but I feel that after what other people have said elsewhere and that she is a "serial cheat" has lied and deceived, it's deeper than that - for both of us. But I fear that I am disillusioned, hanging on to the relationship and wanting her to decide to return. I have this deep longing for a better relationship between us free of the baggage that got us here. She wasn't honest last time she came back, so we couldn't build it on strong foundations. Perhaps it is too late and I just need to detach fully, give up hope, say goodbye and move on, but this site is supposed to be focused around DB and saving marriages and resolving issues. Am I wrong? Am I grasping at straws?
This is what is preventing me from going forward and working harder at GAL, even though I am doing that as best I can, I can't stop the panic that turns me into a quivering wreck. Hypnotherapy session tonight, perhaps that can help.
Thank you for reading if you got this far. Your time and continued input if very much appreciated and I just wish I could get you all a bottle of wine to say thank you.
Hey there,
this is a marriage saving site. A lot of times you may not fully understand other's advice and perspective but everyone is here to help and support you.
The best way to save yourself is to detach, to become more attractive, work on your R skills, GAL. But it is not guarantee, right? There is no silver bullet. You can stop that panic, you are working at it, sometimes you're right on the cusp of breaking through but everything still looks the same.
You should have hope. Always have hope. Hope for the best outcome and know in your heart that no matter how dire the situation, you will survive and be better for having gone through this.
I'm guessing you haven't seen or heard from her in a while?
I can see everybody's point of view here and my opinion is swaying from one side to the other. It's just not like me to give in, but perhaps this time I should - 180 right?
You are still doing too much reflecting / thinking / trying to find answers IMO.
You said yourself that you are wondering if your illness was brought on by your WW's previous actions.
Yet you are still contemplaiting taking her back if she wanted to R ?
You "wanting her to decide to return" is what you want. You cannot control what she does.
Your comments are probably right that I am reflecting and still trying to find answers. I have been of strong opinion for a number of years that her leaving first time was a contributory factor in my condition coming on. I know it sounds pathetic and I'll probably be setting myself up again for the next time. I would just like to hear what she has to say. I also see it from the other side, that she will just be using me as the R with the OM didn't work out. This makes me look like a fool.
I sit very firmly ( and happily ) and the other side of that fence and believe its about saving yourself - To rise from the ashes and build yourself back up - Walk away with your head held high and with one thing you didn't have before - Knowledge.
This has got to be the key here "Saving Yourself". This has the be my focus so that I'm good either way and if it comes to walking away then my head will be held high, I just need more emotional strength I think.
She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).
One of your intial posts about your WW having an affair with you speaks volumes - This is WHO she is !!!!
I hear you. But why does she keep doing this? Childhood trauma? Her father abandoning her when she was young? Repressed Sexual Assault? Who knows, but if she is willing to finally work at that.....but I know it's unlikely as she has never seen any of her behaviour as her responsibility and has never asked why. Instead, I am usually the scapegoat. She's 45 next month, perhaps it is just who she is and who she wants to be.
S one of my favorite quotes you need to read over and over and digest it. "you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality".
That is a good quote and applies very well here. Thanks.
These two posts are so on point. The only thing I would add is there seems to be some serious correlation to the left behind spouse not giving a rip anymore and moving on with their life and being super happy, focused and seriously living everyday to its fullest and the walk away spouse seeing this and wanting to come back. No promises or guarantees but it’s the best shot. And it can not be fake. They’ll see right through that.
Everybody's comments are spot on, seriously. It makes me wonder what I'm thinking sometimes, but the common theme is that I need to focus firmly on me and detach from the R with the W. I know this to be true and is a good thing to do whatever the outcome. My focus is now finding somewhere to live as I need to go from here by end of August and I have an entire house to pack up, find somewhere to be and move.
I can't see how she will see that I'm moving on as she sin't around. The only time she will see me in this weekend when she comes to collect her personal belongings.
That's unfortunate. Whether you have hope and want to save your marriage, or don't have hope and want to move on, GAL is one of the most effective things you can do. Yesterday I struggled a bit. My solution was to join a Meetup and I got in some exercise while meeting new acquaintances I may see again in the future. That was vastly more useful than sitting at home and being in my own head.
I have a couple of contacts here, but absolutely nobody wants to meet up during the week, just for an hour on a Sunday - and even then they don't turn up. I looked at meetups in the area, but this is such a small quiet place (population <8,000) there is nothing like that here. There's not even anything happening in the neighbouring towns. It's always been that way in this are and it is so frustrating.
My lack of haste in completing my divorce was because I was already free in practice and wanted to focus on my new life.
Good perspective that I didn't think about. However, it was her that requested it, so that's why I'm a bit confused.
Sometimes WAS's delay to have a Plan B, an insurance policy if OM don't work out. You say that's what you believe happened ten years ago, right? Don't read too much into this.
Yes, exactly that. My thinking let's me down sometimes.
If her Plan A crumbles again, and she returns to you as Plan B, how is that best for you? We know your STBXW doesn't want to be alone, hence the multiple exit affairs.
And I suppose that I will be non the wiser as to whether her relationship has crumbled, or she has decided that it isn't what she wanted after all.
An exit affair is a symptom of a marriage that was already dead. LBS focus on the AP and are surprised when OM1 is replaced with OM2 and OM3. I'd focus on the dead marriage. The red flag is you didn't know she was still unhappy, presumably because you weren't working for a decade. That points to a communication failure. WAS who are vocal about problems are more sympathetic.
It's been 7 years so not quite a decade yet! :-) The thing is, is that I was not under the impression that the marriage was dead. Everything was seriously OK apart from sex was a bit sporadic, but not non-existent. Communication failure on her part was what was brought up at counselling last time and as I have pointed out previously, she hasn't communicated anything being wrong AND hasn't behaved in such a way that anything was wrong. Obviously in her mind something was not right, but this then leads to the fact that she has been "acting" all this time and making me believe everything is fine. I know people say that there must have been something, but honestly, no there wasn't - not enough to notice anyway.
All of your comments has given me much food for thought. My priority is me and I must get somewhere to live as the lawyer said not to worry about it, but then there has been no response from the wife for negotiation.
A lot of times you may not fully understand other's advice and perspective but everyone is here to help and support you.
I can fully understand everybody's perspective and although they differ, the common theme is to look out for yourself, for me and I understand how important this is either way.
The best way to save yourself is to detach, to become more attractive, work on your R skills, GAL. But it is not guarantee, right? There is no silver bullet. You can stop that panic, you are working at it, sometimes you're right on the cusp of breaking through but everything still looks the same.
I understand there is no guarantee. Panic is the worst. Hypnotherapy last night was good and dumbed it down a lot. It's starting to creep back today as I can feel the feelings in my body starting to bubble up, but so far it's manageable.
You should have hope. Always have hope. Hope for the best outcome and know in your heart that no matter how dire the situation, you will survive and be better for having gone through this.
Hope for the best outcome, I agree. But I was referring to hope that we would get one more chance to address our relationship, but that wouldn't be detaching, right?
I'm guessing you haven't seen or heard from her in a while?
No, nada. Just over 3 weeks.
One other thing Smilie, a few times you've assumed that her R with OM will end. Don't pin your hopes on that and work towards being ok no matter what happens. My STBXW is over a year now with OM, ask Ginger how her H's OW turned out. My sister's H cheated on his long-term GF to be with her and they've been together almost 20 years.
One other thing Smilie, a few times you've assumed that her R with OM will end. Don't pin your hopes on that and work towards being ok no matter what happens. My STBXW is over a year now with OM, ask Ginger how her H's OW turned out. My sister's H cheated on his long-term GF to be with her and they've been together almost 20 years.
Yeah I know... Actually, she was with me for just over 19 years after cheating on her other boyfriend so the liklihood is slim. I know it's time for me to move on. I just feel like breaking down every time I think of it and I feel so stuck with finding a place to live it's unbelievable.
Cheers pal
hear you. But why does she keep doing this? Childhood trauma? Her father abandoning her when she was young? Repressed Sexual Assault? Who knows, but if she is willing to finally work at that.....but I know it's unlikely as she has never seen any of her behaviour as her responsibility and has never asked why. Instead, I am usually the scapegoat. She's 45 next month, perhaps it is just who she is and who she wants to be.
You are still trying to find a logical answer to why / look for a reason.
It is unlikely you will ever know the truth. Your WW has weak boundaries, and found a better option ( in their opinion ) . Thats what they do.
There is a lot of stuff online about childhood trauma and cheating. So that may have played a factor, but not all people who had poor childhoods cheat, and i know people who had amazing childhoods that are cheaters - again, you are looking for an answer, that you wont find.
My WW had a bad childhood and poor boundaries..
But my best mate from school had the best childhood - his parents were like second parents to me and i spent 1/2 my younger life at his - and he turned into a serial cheater / took drugs etc..
as for the "If she is willing to work at that" comment
Your WWs current mindset is
"smilie wasnt working, Smilies is in poor healthy, Smilie didnt make me happy, Smilie wasnt fun, OM is a better catch, I am now free, I am now happy"...
What do you think WW would say if you blamed her actions on past trauma !!!!..
In her head, she probably has a lot of resentment built up and little respect for you already - do you really think you can reason with her and expect her to reflect on her actions.
This is you acting on emotion and not thinking logically - there is no way she would reflect on her actions at this given point.
She would need to hit a serious rock bottom for that to happen. Even if she did hit rock bottom, she needs to be attracted to you / respect you to want to reconcile. This is why working on you is so important - ie job, health, being healthy on the inside and in your mindset as well as looking good in the mirror.
In a world filled with online dating and ease to meet potential partners, you need to become the catch..
At the minute you are broken ( we have all been there ) - only you can decide how you want to move forward.
The first step is to sort yourself out - Health, Career, House, GAL etc - all without her.
Personally though, i think you have been given a gift of a new life. Your WW is a cheater - its who she is. If you suspect your illness is down to her actions and the anxiety its caused over the years, this is the perfect opertunity for you to become healthy.
S,
Mr B nailed it above. If you want the technical term it’s hypergamy. Google it.
I know this is a marriage saving board but in reality it’s about saving yourself. Mr B and myself as well as a few others have had people try to push us off the board because of our “negative” attitude. When in reality we are just able to objectively see things without any emotions. Your W is not a good person.
What your W did is doing to you is pretty $hitty. She cheated on you that may have contributed to your poor health then likely left you because you were in poor health.
The only winning path out of this it to take the focus off your W and put it 100% on yourself. If she ever comes to you for another chance you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Until then it’s a waste of mental space and energy.
At the minute you are broken ( we have all been there ) - only you can decide how you want to move forward.
The first step is to sort yourself out - Health, Career, House, GAL etc - all without her.
Personally though, i think you have been given a gift of a new life. Your WW is a cheater - its who she is. If you suspect your illness is down to her actions and the anxiety its caused over the years, this is the perfect opertunity for you to become healthy.
All of what you say is true, I can see that logically and yes it is my emotions talking, as when I can think logically through the tirade of thoughts aimed squarely at self-destruction and pointless hope, I can see 'who' she is and exactly what happened last time - even though she said it didn't. She was prepared to lie to me to come back and promise to have counseling as she knew this would get her back in the door. She has continued this lie for 10 years and now she's done it again. She wasn't in love with me, never was and I don't even know why she wanted to get married if she wasn't committed, as less than one year after she wanted to have an affair. That's not love. She took the love I had for her and abused it - I see that.
Yes I am broken and man, do I feel that! I have gone from a self-confident, healthy, fit man, to some stupid person who wants this abuse to continue and who finds it hard to make a decision. Only a few years ago was I an IT Manager in charge of the running and operation of a legal firm. It seem like another lifetime.
So let's go for the sorting out then ... it's got to be done anyway. I really need to find a place to start....
Start today.
I'll be honest with you Smilie...
I love my new life - I never hit rock bottom, but my dignity and self respect took a massive kicking when i allowed WW to walk back into my life after her first EA with a coworker.
I took her back - I told very few people of what she had done - i told 1 person about EA1.
Come OM2 and OM3 - I distanced myself from the 1 person i had told, because i was ashamed - i was embarrased.
3 months after EA1 and she is flirting with 2 other guys.
I dont regret ending my relationship.
My regret is trying to make it work / reason with the WW when she was getting her kicks flirting with 2 other guys.
My dignity went out of the window, as i made all the usual LBS mistakes - flowers, pleading, talking, reasoning..
Pointless!
BUT i found this site and i changed my outlook. I love my life now. This site is a gold mine on information. Use it and become healthy.
S,
Your looking at her feelings as absolutes which is just not the case. I am sure she loved you at some point and probably still does to some extent. Feelings are fleeting. Some people strongly believe in “in sickness and in health until death do us part”. Some believe in “sexual market value” and a “bigger better deal”. Your W seems to favor the latter. Now irs up you to prove her wrong.
Mr B nailed it above. If you want the technical term it’s hypergamy. Google it.
I agree, he has. I am aware of hypergamy and it makes sense seeing as when she met me she was a trainee lawyer and I was an IT Manager of the firm. I was fit as I worked out regularly and quite confident. Her partner worked in a car parts place and sat playing computer games all the time.
I know this is a marriage saving board but in reality it’s about saving yourself. Mr B and myself as well as a few others have had people try to push us off the board because of our “negative” attitude. When in reality we are just able to objectively see things without any emotions. Your W is not a good person.
I don't think your attitudes have been negative at all. They certainly hold merit and are/have been worthy of serious consideration and much internal debate that has been extremely helpful. I can see that my wife is not a good person, despite what I want to think about her, the facts don't lie do they?
What your W did is doing to you is pretty $hitty. She cheated on you that may have contributed to your poor health then likely left you because you were in poor health.
Over the years she has also given me false hope which made me keep waiting around for her to be onboard with creating an alternative income for us. Just like she lied about her affair 10 years ago, she lied about wanting this also. So I could have been in a better place to implement my business idea years ago, but now I'm here. Luckily I still have that chance and a whole heap of new knowledge and experience to go along with it.
Like Mr B indicated, she's probably done me a favour and now I have the opportunity to grow and flourish. It's a shame that I have to feel like this and be put in a situation that is a struggle in itself to claw out of, but at least I will be free of the lies, deceit and pretence that the past 10 years seemed to have been built on.
The only winning path out of this it to take the focus off your W and put it 100% on yourself. If she ever comes to you for another chance you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Until then it’s a waste of mental space and energy.
I can see that perfectly clear and it's what I had to do and I agree that it is a waste of energy and mental space. I just wish I could switch it off - I'm sure that day will come, hopefully soon.
S,
You need to start a new thread.
You see though that people typically don’t change until they are forced to change usually after going through something really painful.
This happened for a reason. The reason just isn’t clear yet.
[quote=ovrrnbw]You should have hope. Always have hope. Hope for the best outcome and know in your heart that no matter how dire the situation, you will survive and be better for having gone through this.
Hope for the best outcome, I agree. But I was referring to hope that we would get one more chance to address our relationship, but that wouldn't be detaching, right?
I'm guessing you haven't seen or heard from her in a while?
No, nada. Just over 3 weeks.
Yea, you can hope to have one more chance, just don't get attached to it. Don't expect it. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.