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Posted By: smilie She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/19/21 03:55 PM
"Overrn" mentioned these forums to me and suggested I post here.

I don't know where to start. 10 Years ago, just one year after marriage, my wife left. She went back and forth for a total of 9 months before she came home for good and wanted counselling. During that time I read and eventually adhered to as best I could "The Divorce Remedy". She promised there was no OM.

4 weeks ago tomorrow without any warning and living as we have for the past 10 years she went again, wanting space. Lying she was going to stay with her sister and that she had booked a hotel instead. Two days later I received a text message saying that she is not coming home as she has feelings for somebody else. Since then she had admitted adultery and said she wants a divorce. However 10 days after she said that her lawyer would be sending me something, nothing has happened.

Initially I wanted answers and needed contact as she had information I needed. I no longer contact her and all communication from her lawyer needs to go direct to mine.

She has stolen money from the saving account just after leaving.

Is there any hope for resolution seeing as this is the second time around? Bearing in mind we were good for 10 years and I thought there was no issue.

Background: 10 years ago I was out of work due to losing my job and the recession. It took me 1.5 years to get a suitable position. Now, this time, I have not been able to work due to ill health for 7 years. She says it's not because of that and she doesn't know what it is.

Thanks.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/20/21 05:03 AM
I forgot to say that she says she wants a divorce and has seen a divorce lawyer and says I will receive a letter (she is a lawyer herself). However I have received nothing in 11 days, which makes me wonder if she is serious about what she wants.

I'm on the verge of giving her that wish as I promised I would if that's what she wanted and didn't come back home. I have got a lawyer and am considering starting proceedings tomorrow, even though it's hurting my heart so deeply. It's not what I want, but neither is this situation again. And I'm not sure I could recover from her being unfaithful.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/20/21 05:04 AM
I forgot to say that she says she wants a divorce and has seen a divorce lawyer and says I will receive a letter (she is a lawyer herself). However I have received nothing in 11 days, which makes me wonder if she is serious about what she wants.

I'm on the verge of giving her that wish as I promised I would if that's what she wanted and didn't come back home. I have got a lawyer and am considering starting proceedings tomorrow, even though it's hurting my heart so deeply. It's not what I want, b
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 07:09 AM
Hey there,

glad you found us.

I know someone is going to ask, but can you list you and your W's ages and time together, kids or not, etc.

Nice sigline.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 12:12 PM
Hello,

Well the wife is 45 in August and I am 55, so there's 10 years between us which has never really been a problem, that I've noticed. We don't have any kids, which is a bit of an emotional subject, but happy to discuss.

We have been together since 2002, so that's 19 years and have been married for 11. We have known each other for 21 years in all, but it wasn't until 2001 that we started to get to know each other really well.

She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).

So that's a very brief history.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
"Overrn" mentioned these forums to me and suggested I post here.

I don't know where to start. 10 Years ago, just one year after marriage, my wife left. She went back and forth for a total of 9 months before she came home for good and wanted counselling. During that time I read and eventually adhered to as best I could "The Divorce Remedy". She promised there was no OM.

4 weeks ago tomorrow without any warning and living as we have for the past 10 years she went again, wanting space. Lying she was going to stay with her sister and that she had booked a hotel instead. Two days later I received a text message saying that she is not coming home as she has feelings for somebody else. Since then she had admitted adultery and said she wants a divorce. However 10 days after she said that her lawyer would be sending me something, nothing has happened.

Initially I wanted answers and needed contact as she had information I needed. I no longer contact her and all communication from her lawyer needs to go direct to mine.

She has stolen money from the saving account just after leaving.

Is there any hope for resolution seeing as this is the second time around? Bearing in mind we were good for 10 years and I thought there was no issue.

Background: 10 years ago I was out of work due to losing my job and the recession. It took me 1.5 years to get a suitable position. Now, this time, I have not been able to work due to ill health for 7 years. She says it's not because of that and she doesn't know what it is.

Thanks.


smilie, welcome to the forum and I am so sorry to hear you are going through this. Your post struck a definite cord with me because I can relate to it a lot. I had my first sitch with my W in in an EA in 2005. And then 12 years later it happened again in 2017.

Now there were a lot of reasons for that relapse, most of them on my end. I allowed the dynamics that led to the first sitch to return to my MR in the 12 year period between them. I changed temporarily to "fix" things in 2005, and a few years later became the same old man again instead of cementing the changes I needed to make. I am not saying the same thing happened in your MR, but we do see that happen where the LBS panics, makes promises, changes, etc. And then when the crisis appears averted, resorts back to the position of comfort that they were in previously. A lot of human nature involved here as we are a lot like water as humans, we always look for the path of least resistance.

I am not going to lie, your situation sounds fairly advanced. We get a lot of sitches here where the BD just happened, but the WAS is still in the house. I am not saying there is no hope for reconciliation (I think you meant that instaed of resolution, your sitch will be resolved, one way or another).

smilie, you have a leg up on a lot of LBSs as you've read DR and been through this before. So you should already know what you should be doing. That you need to back off and give the WAS space. That you need to focus on yourself. That you need to prepare yourself for either eventuality (that she comes back or she doesn't). I am assuming that since you are looking for a "resolution" that you are open to her coming back? (I ask because for some LBSs a PA is a dealbreaker and the LBS is not interested in reconciliation after a PA has occurred.)

smilie, if I can get a tad personal, I feel like maybe there are some self-esteem issues involved on your end? You mention your job state 10 years ago, and then you mention your health now. I hope you aren't blaming yourself for that. When LBSs start to take too much blame for things outside of their control, I like to remind them of the vows their WAS committed to on their wedding day. Things like: For better or worse (job situations), in sickness and in health (illnesses), forsaking all others til death do us part.

What I notice a lot (happened with some very close friends of my W's and mine years ago) is that the WAS uses the hard times as an excuse for stepping outside of the marriage. It isn't that the affair happened because of job situations or illness, but those things are used as an excuse for the affair after the fact. Your WAW is saying that isn't the case, and that she doesn't know why. So at least she isn't falling into that trap. But out of everything she is saying, she doesn't know why is probably the closest thing to the truth you will get from her right now! Waywards often do not know why they are doing what they are doing, they do it because it is what their feeligns are driving them to do.

As ovr said, if you can provide more details to your sitch, that might help, but in general you need to fall back to the DB principles you learned 10 years ago.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 01:43 PM
Also, here is a link to Cadet's usual welcome post:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2854488#Post2854488

Lots of great reading in that!
Posted By: Cadet Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Also, here is a link to Cadet's usual welcome post:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2854488#Post2854488

Lots of great reading in that!

Thanks Steve
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Hello,

Well the wife is 45 in August and I am 55, so there's 10 years between us which has never really been a problem, that I've noticed. We don't have any kids, which is a bit of an emotional subject, but happy to discuss.

We have been together since 2002, so that's 19 years and have been married for 11. We have known each other for 21 years in all, but it wasn't until 2001 that we started to get to know each other really well.

She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).

So that's a very brief history.


Cadet must have approved this post (you are probably on moderation for now and your posts won't show up right away) after I responded.

Thanks for this additional information. Do you think she may have had an affair 10 years ago as well? What does your gut tell you?

I ask because occasionally we see sitches here where the WAS just has a penchant for cheating. As a TV psychologist I admire likes to say, relevant past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I know sometimes our love for someone blinds us to their faults, but maybe this is who she is? Just a thought.

The good news is that none of that changes what you should be doing. Which I spoke to in my first post, and that you are well versed in having read DR.
Posted By: Cadet Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Cadet must have approved this post (you are probably on moderation for now and your posts won't show up right away) after I responded.

There are issues in the UBB system right now,
like primarily no notifications of anything,
so it is all taking longer,
especially on the weekend when I am not checking it as much.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 05:31 PM
Hi Smile, if I'm reading correctly your STBXW has a habit of exit affairs, not just for closure but also because she can't tolerate being alone. You know this because that's how you two got together in the first place. The last time this happened you say she and her affair partner didn't work out, and she returned home.

Originally Posted by Smile
She has stolen money from the saving account just after leaving.

If it's theft, report it to the police. In America, you might feel angry, but this would not be theft. A joint account is both peoples' property and, in a divorce settlement, both spouses would get an equal share. I point this out because sometimes we're quick to attribute someone's actions as villainy after a breakup.

Originally Posted by Smile
I'm on the verge of giving her that wish as I promised I would if that's what she wanted and didn't come back home.

Making ultimatums and then not keeping them is a weak behavior that reduces her trust in your words. I'd still value WHAT YOU WANT more than A PROMISE TO A CHEATER. Since you asked if there's hope, I assume you are not certain you want a divorce. Opt for boundaries instead of ultimatums in the future. Since a boundary controls your behavior, not hers, they rarely require an advance announcement. That's a good litmus test for Boundaries vs. Ultimatums. There's a thread on the topic here with more info.

Originally Posted by Smile
Is there any hope for resolution seeing as this is the second time around Bearing in mind we were good for 10 years and I thought there was no issue.

The biggest red flag to me is you say you thought there was "no issue". I was shocked my XGF walked out on me, and my XW was shocked I walked out on her, but in both cases issues had been expressed. It's hard to imagine an issue-free relationship. It's easier to imagine one where one or both parties give up on expressing issues and allow resentment to build. When did this "no issue" period begin? What were her issues just before it began? Why did you both stop talking about and working on those issues?

When she last split, what were her issues, and what 180s did you make? Did you keep-up with those?

When she last split, did you GAL, and did you keep-up with those friends/habits you built?

Did intimacy stop or slow significantly? It doesn't always, but this is often a good indicator of problems. If physical intimacy was always poor, this can also point to a 180 or moving on, depending on the cause.

OBVIOUSLY, she is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the demise of the relationship, and she's the one having a 3rd exit affair. If there was never any warning she was unhappy, even after therapy last time, imho the hope for a faithful relationship seems dimmer, even if you two reconcile.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW

smilie, you have a leg up on a lot of LBSs as you've read DR and been through this before. So you should already know what you should be doing. That you need to back off and give the WAS space. That you need to focus on yourself. That you need to prepare yourself for either eventuality (that she comes back or she doesn't). I am assuming that since you are looking for a "resolution" that you are open to her coming back? (I ask because for some LBSs a PA is a dealbreaker and the LBS is not interested in reconciliation after a PA has occurred.)

Yes I am aware to work on myself and GAL. I previously had to keep in contact as she left with paperwork to sort out, and I needed the satnav which she had in her car, so we had to talk. NC now for a week, although she is waiting for me to respond to an email to agree a date when she can come and collect her belongings.

Not sure about wanting her back at this stage, as I am more certain now that she lied at marriage counselling 9 years ago and said that she wasn't having a PA. On and off she was gone for 9 months. This time she left, her behaviour was 100% the same as previously with the exception that she didn't take ANY belongings with her. So I'm thinking that the last 10 years has been built on the lie that she wasn't having an affair before. She fooled me and the counsellor if this is the case.

If she was having an affair 10+ years ago (which I think I am accurate on) is it the same person now and how long has it been going on for. Or, if it is not the same person, how many affairs has she had in the past 10 years where she hasn't wanted to set up life with the OM?

Not sure if I can get my head round that {if} she had an affair inside of a year of us being married, and this entire 10 years since has been living a lie, and she has no admitted and affair that I don't know how long it has been going on....I am not sure if I can come back from that as this, to me, is the ultimate betrayal, let alone the depth and longevity of the lies and deceit.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW

smilie, if I can get a tad personal, I feel like maybe there are some self-esteem issues involved on your end? You mention your job state 10 years ago, and then you mention your health now. I hope you aren't blaming yourself for that. When LBSs start to take too much blame for things outside of their control, I like to remind them of the vows their WAS committed to on their wedding day. Things like: For better or worse (job situations), in sickness and in health (illnesses), forsaking all others til death do us part.

Oh yes, I think my self-esteem has been diminishing over the 7 year period that I have been struggling with this condition. I took my vows seriously. It would appear that she wasn't so committed, if she did have an affair inside of a year of being married and if she wasn't prepared to discuss any issues. I wonder, from her point of view, what would have been the point in getting married? The day? The dress? The attention? Or did she convince herself that she was committed? All I know if that our "Wedding Night" was a 'dead bedroom' (if you get my drift) and we didn't seal the deal until on honeymoon some 3 days later. I always thought that was a bit strange also.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW

What I notice a lot (happened with some very close friends of my W's and mine years ago) is that the WAS uses the hard times as an excuse for stepping outside of the marriage. It isn't that the affair happened because of job situations or illness, but those things are used as an excuse for the affair after the fact. Your WAW is saying that isn't the case, and that she doesn't know why. So at least she isn't falling into that trap. But out of everything she is saying, she doesn't know why is probably the closest thing to the truth you will get from her right now! Waywards often do not know why they are doing what they are doing, they do it because it is what their feeligns are driving them to do.

She did fall into that trap last time though and it wouldn't surprise me if she is telling everybody else that this is what it is, and telling me a different story. My last girlfriend did this making her family believe that I was some bully-boy boyfriend who threatened to beat her up. She was a true psycho and it was her that was violent, not I. Why do {some} women need to make others believe a lie about somebody else?

I get that they don't know and ride on their feelings, but where is their conscience in all of this? Why are they prepared to discard their marriage and relationship without a second thought or without thought of consequences? The W is prepared to throw me under the bus, make me financially destitute and prepared for me to be homeless. I can't get my head around that as I would never be able to do that to anybody, especially when there has been no violence or threat in the relationship.

Sorry, there seems to be a lot of why's coming out of my fingertips! :-)
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW

Do you think she may have had an affair 10 years ago as well? What does your gut tell you?

My gut tells me yes, it always has. However this was the first thing that I needed to be honestly answered a soon as we had counselling and prior to any other discussions talking place. She promised me (and the counsellor) multiple times as I was persistent, that there was nobody else involved. For some reason I just accepted this, but never believed it. I should have trusted my gut back then and now I can see it so clearly, together with her behaviour and what she did 10 years back. I can remember it like it was yesterday again.

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I ask because occasionally we see sitches here where the WAS just has a penchant for cheating. As a TV psychologist I admire likes to say, relevant past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I know sometimes our love for someone blinds us to their faults, but maybe this is who she is? Just a thought.

The good news is that none of that changes what you should be doing. Which I spoke to in my first post, and that you are well versed in having read DR.

Perhaps she is just a cheat, however we have always spent a lot of time together doing things together. It has amazed me how she has fitted in an affair. The only way she could have done this is to take days off work without me knowing. I kept saying to her that I am aware that she hasn't taken any days off work and that she needs to have a break. Huh! Unbenown to me, she was, more than likely! Days off with the OM and only a 15 minute walk from her office to home. I could have gone down to her work at any point and met her for lunch and found that she wasn't there. But that never happened and I can't work out how she has done this.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/21/21 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Smile, if I'm reading correctly your STBXW has a habit of exit affairs, not just for closure but also because she can't tolerate being alone. You know this because that's how you two got together in the first place. The last time this happened you say she and her affair partner didn't work out, and she returned home.

You are right here as far as exit affairs are concerned. Yes this is how we got together and she has never lived alone in her life, went from Home -> BF1 -> BF2 -> BF3 -> Me -> OM. It was my assumption that her PA didn't work out, as I didn't know if she was having an affair at the time, but it would be logical this is what happened.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

If it's theft, report it to the police. In America, you might feel angry, but this would not be theft. A joint account is both peoples' property and, in a divorce settlement, both spouses would get an equal share. I point this out because sometimes we're quick to attribute someone's actions as villainy after a breakup.

My lawyer is on it and will be requesting that the balance of the monies that were not evenly distributed, be paid back. I get your point about villainy and there has been considerable potential fraudulent behaviour that I am waiting on, such as setting up a joint account 3 weeks prior to leaving and trigger and pension lump sum payment to that account and potentially supply 'certified copies' of my personal documents without my knowledge. This may not be the case and may be jumping to conclusions. Seeing as she is a lawyer, if she has done this then it will be fraudulent behaviour. I am waiting to hear back from the pension company who have opened a case to retrieve all documents submitted. I sincerely hope that I am wrong on this.

There is also about £7-8k that needs to be accounted for.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Making ultimatums and then not keeping them is a weak behavior that reduces her trust in your words. I'd still value WHAT YOU WANT more than A PROMISE TO A CHEATER. Since you asked if there's hope, I assume you are not certain you want a divorce. Opt for boundaries instead of ultimatums in the future. Since a boundary controls your behavior, not hers, they rarely require an advance announcement. That's a good litmus test for Boundaries vs. Ultimatums.

I wasn't aware that this was an ultimatum, bearing in mind that it was an agreed boundary that was set during one of our counselling sessions 9 years back. The boundary was that if she goes again without any conversation or hint that anything was wrong, then she would basically be showing me that she no longer wanted the relationship and therefore I would give her what she wanted.

I suppose it does sound like and ultimatum as I type it, but this was what was agreed between us back then

Originally Posted by CWarrior
The biggest red flag to me is you say you thought there was "no issue". I was shocked my XGF walked out on me, and my XW was shocked I walked out on her, but in both cases issues had been expressed. It's hard to imagine an issue-free relationship. It's easier to imagine one where one or both parties give up on expressing issues and allow resentment to build. When did this "no issue" period begin? What were her issues just before it began? Why did you both stop talking about and working on those issues?

Seriously, no issues have been expressed by her ever in the 10 years since last time. Right up until the day before she left when I got wind that she was going to run again, we were living as a happy married couple. Sharing a bed, holding hands (outside and indoors), kissing, being affectionate and talking about our plans for the future.

With WAW I am aware that they typically do nag and complain. Nothing. It is exactly like SAS (Spousal Abandonment Syndrome), where no complaints are made, everything seems normal until such time as they go without word or warning.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
When she last split, what were her issues, and what 180s did you make? Did you keep-up with those?
180's last time: become more independent, spend time at the gym, do my own stuff rather than always do stuff with her - can't remember the rest. i haven't kept up with them as 3.5 year after we got back together I had a severe vertigo attack that changed my life and the dizziness has never gone, which I why I cannot work. So once again I have fallen back to depend on her and allow her to be in control over everything, simple because I was too ill for about 5 years when it was really bad.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
When she last split, did you GAL, and did you keep-up with those friends/habits you built?
I did for a while until I got taken ill. One of the guys at the gym I was friendly with got killed in a motorbike accident. After that and becuase I wasn't very well al of the time, I stayed at home a lot and made my W the centre of my world again. Silly me.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Did intimacy stop or slow significantly? It doesn't always, but this is often a good indicator of problems. If physical intimacy was always poor, this can also point to a 180 or moving on, depending on the cause.

Yes it has. It hasn't been the same since we got back together. Went through stages, but never the same and very infrequent. Also add to the mix that I was dizzy a lot of the time and was suffering from chronic fatigue, so in the bedroom I was asleep in minutes! This was not always the case though and we went through a stage of regularity. Never overly passionate thought like it was prior to the first time she left home.

She has never really done anything to spice it up. Since we moved sex has been almost non-existent. Maybe once a month or so. Recently she has just read her Kindle as soon as she got in bed - exactly the same behaviour as 10 years back.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
OBVIOUSLY, she is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the demise of the relationship, and she's the one having a 3rd exit affair. If there was never any warning she was unhappy, even after therapy last time, imho the hope for a faithful relationship seems dimmer, even if you two reconcile.

I'm not being dismissive, but there was absolutely no warning in the slightest. I don't think there will be much scope for rebuilding the relationship. It would be good to see what happens from this point on though. I would be interested in what she does after receiving the letter from my lawyer - not threatening divorce - but paving the way forward for financial support, returning monies that were taken and answering some important questions for transparency. We'll see and I'm seriously not expecting anything apart from her wanting a D, but it seems strange that she stated this is what she wanted within 2 weeks of leaving, but she hasn't acted on what she said she was going to do - get her lawyer to send me a letter detailing her intentions going forward.

Thanks for your questions. They highlight that I didn't keep up the work as I had a serious health challenge and i still have to a large extent, that makes each day a personal challenge. I should have re-read MWD DR book again. But NEVER was there any verbal or behavioural indication in 10 years that there was an issue.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by SteveLW

Do you think she may have had an affair 10 years ago as well? What does your gut tell you?

My gut tells me yes, it always has. However this was the first thing that I needed to be honestly answered a soon as we had counselling and prior to any other discussions talking place. She promised me (and the counsellor) multiple times as I was persistent, that there was nobody else involved. For some reason I just accepted this, but never believed it. I should have trusted my gut back then and now I can see it so clearly, together with her behaviour and what she did 10 years back. I can remember it like it was yesterday again.

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I ask because occasionally we see sitches here where the WAS just has a penchant for cheating. As a TV psychologist I admire likes to say, relevant past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I know sometimes our love for someone blinds us to their faults, but maybe this is who she is? Just a thought.

The good news is that none of that changes what you should be doing. Which I spoke to in my first post, and that you are well versed in having read DR.

Perhaps she is just a cheat, however we have always spent a lot of time together doing things together. It has amazed me how she has fitted in an affair. The only way she could have done this is to take days off work without me knowing. I kept saying to her that I am aware that she hasn't taken any days off work and that she needs to have a break. Huh! Unbenown to me, she was, more than likely! Days off with the OM and only a 15 minute walk from her office to home. I could have gone down to her work at any point and met her for lunch and found that she wasn't there. But that never happened and I can't work out how she has done this.


I have a former friend that cheated on her husband. One thing she told me once was that a cheater will go to extreme lengths to meet the affair partner. She admitted to going to get groceries, meeting get AP in the parking lot, having sex, then going into the store to shop for get family.

Then there is a couple friend from years ago, where he found out her "business trips" and trips for conferences were actually vacations with her AP. The point is, as you've realized, a cheater will find a way.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
The point is, as you've realized, a cheater will find a way.

And of course, I remember this from when she was seeing me while living with her boyfriend. I just can't get after 19 yeas of being together, that she is sill like this. Why get married if you're not serious about it? She has never wanted kids either, more career-focused. It makes me feel sick just thinking about it. These bloomin' panic attacks are awful.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 09:24 AM

Quote

bearing in mind that it was an agreed boundary that was set during one of our counselling sessions 9 years back. The boundary was that if she goes again without any conversation or hint that anything was wrong, then she would basically be showing me that she no longer wanted the relationship and therefore I would give her what she wanted.


Hi Smilie,

anything you agree on is irrelivant. You can't control her, so just because she agrees something, doesnt mean she will respect / stick to it - as you are finding out.

Anything a WW says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

You saw what kind of person your WW was when you met - She was prepared to leave another lover for you - this in my eyes shows she doesnt respect boundaries - You ignored that red flag, and now its come full circle.

I know how you feel - because i ignored the same red flag with my WW ( she didnt leave a guy for me, but i found out approx 3 months into our relationship that 12 months prior to me, she had seen a married / engaged guy )

Quote

Seriously, no issues have been expressed by her ever in the 10 years since last time. Right up until the day before she left when I got wind that she was going to run again, we were living as a happy married couple. Sharing a bed, holding hands (outside and indoors), kissing, being affectionate and talking about our plans for the future.



Word of advice - dont try to figure this out. You will go crazy .

My WW was talking about another child days before she started flirting with a guy she met on a night out !.

There was probably resentment there - maybe a lack of respect - frustrations you werent aware of.

The OM came along and pressed the right buttons at the right time and wham - with her non existant boundaries for right and wrong ( which you knew about from previous cheating ) she is gone.

Don't spend time trying to establish would haves and could haves - Just focus on you.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
You saw what kind of person your WW was when you met - She was prepared to leave another lover for you - this in my eyes shows she doesnt respect boundaries - You ignored that red flag, and now its come full circle.

Isn't it strange how, at the time, you don't see it as a red flag? I waited 8 years before getting married just to be sure - obviously time doesn't mean a thing and doesn't change their behaviour.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Word of advice - dont try to figure this out. You will go crazy .

Yep. Finding that one out! I'm a logical thinker and it certainly doesn't fit into that model.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
My WW was talking about another child days before she started flirting with a guy she met on a night out !.

Blimey! And there's me thinking that discussing what our plans were for the rest of the year were significant.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
The OM came along and pressed the right buttons at the right time and wham - with her non existant boundaries for right and wrong ( which you knew about from previous cheating ) she is gone.

That's just mad. This is why I cannot understand why she got married. If he wasn't going to respect boundaries, our marriage or me, then why do it? It totally baffles me - goes back to that driving me crazy part again, I suppose and not trying to work it out.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Don't spend time trying to establish would haves and could haves - Just focus on you.

I shall as best I can. It is hard with having this awful neurological condition as it makes doing things and all this stuff much harder. Even though she said it's not, perhaps me not being well is the resentment. Something I can't control.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by smilie

Yep. Finding that one out! I'm a logical thinker and it certainly doesn't fit into that model.


Thats why you wont understand it - Women in general are more emotional than males. WW's are operating on 100% emotion. Don't try to make any logical sense of it, as you cant make sense of emotional decissions.

Quote

That's just mad. This is why I cannot understand why she got married. If he wasn't going to respect boundaries, our marriage or me, then why do it? It totally baffles me - goes back to that driving me crazy part again, I suppose and not trying to work it out.


Because at that given time, she was emotionally connected to you and wanted to get married to you. In her head, at that time, she wanted you..

Respect is also key IMO - its earned, and can be lost. Once the respect goes, why should she respect the boundaries, if she doesnt respect you ? . Attraction also has its part to play. If you were 13 stone and buff 15 years ago, and now have a 19 stone dad bod, and this was important for her, it may cause the attraction to drop and the wandering eye.

Ive dated several ladies who let themselves go after kids, only to find their husbands lost attraction and looked elsewhere. It goes both ways.

There are several good books out there about understanding how women work, and how given emotions can sway from minute to minute. There is also a lot of good advice on posts on this site about validating.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:20 AM
Right at the start of this my wife's post was coming through, now it has dribbled to a halt. When we spoke a week after she left, she said that she hadn't redirected it because she didn't want to pay the money. It is obvious now that she has been contacting companies and changing her address. So, it looks like she has set up home elsewhere and didn't divert the post via the postal service as this can be traced and I "may" be able to find out where she is.

So calculated and planned. I think that's it then. No hope.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:25 AM
Smilie,

there is Hope....

Speaking from experience, i have never been happier.

My WW cheating was the best thing that happened to me.

Your brain will be going into overdrive now with worry..

Set yourself some goals - Not win get your WW back - for you..

realistic goals - then start working towards them...

NOT tomorrow - Start today.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
If you were 13 stone and buff 15 years ago, and now have a 19 stone dad bod, and this was important for her, it may cause the attraction to drop and the wandering eye.

I'm in better shape no than when we got married. Always been fit-ish, got a home gym, but haven't used it too much over the past year. I was just over 11 stone and in not bad shape and since she has left dropped a stone in 4 weeks.

I think I will have to resign myself to the fact that this is over. I was hoping that there still may be a chance to recover from this deep down, but seeing her post come to a dribbling halt, it's now obvious she's not intending to return.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Smilie,

there is Hope....

Speaking from experience, i have never been happier.

My WW cheating was the best thing that happened to me.

Your brain will be going into overdrive now with worry..

Thank you for your sentiment. I fear that because this is the second time she has left in 10 years, that hope is almost gone. Why would she come back to somebody she sees as a loser a second time?

Yes my brain is going bloomin' mad! This week is the worst week of them all, and I'm finally start to sort things out, so you would have thought it should be a better week.

I rally didn't think I would want her back as she has {said that she has} had an affair, but I can't just throw away 11 years of marriage and a 19-year R without some sort of fight! I just can't. Yes it needs to get better, it needs to change and I was trying to talk to her about making things better going forward this year a fair few weeks before she left.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Set yourself some goals - Not win get your WW back - for you..

realistic goals - then start working towards them...

NOT tomorrow - Start today.

I have set my goals, I set them before she left as far as creating an income goes. It's web development stuff and I need to concentrate, but my brain is going so mad that I can't think and I need to learn and work stuff out.

Goals: Workout, develop business website plan as an income stream, meditate, continue working out trading platform strategy (working with a friend).

Call me a whimp, but today so far I've had 3 major panic attacks and the third one is in mid-flow. I need to go the the post office this afternoon, so that will be a stroll, perhaps I'll nip into the pub, take my laptop and create my ultimate plan. Today was supposed to be a day off as I have been on the go for 4 entire weeks and my neurological condition is playing hell with my head.

I have been reading the forums here for the past couple of hours, all the old posts, "Going Dark" and WAW to reducate myself. I still cannot believe this has happened again without warning. She learned from last time and left her stuff behind and just took her!
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
My WW cheating was the best thing that happened to me.

Seriously? And you was able to get over it and not hold it against her?
Posted By: Cadet Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside

Word of advice - dont try to figure this out. You will go crazy .

Its easy to figure out

Anything you think or the average person thinks,
the opposite will be true.

If you think left then it is right, and vice versa.

All that being said,
I agree don't try to figure it out.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside

There are several good books out there about understanding how women work, and how given emotions can sway from minute to minute.


Can you recommend any MrB?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by SteveLW
The point is, as you've realized, a cheater will find a way.

And of course, I remember this from when she was seeing me while living with her boyfriend. I just can't get after 19 yeas of being together, that she is sill like this. Why get married if you're not serious about it? She has never wanted kids either, more career-focused. It makes me feel sick just thinking about it. These bloomin' panic attacks are awful.


Sorry man, I can relate. In the thick of my sitch I can remember the "WHY?" moments and, looking back now, the panic attacks. The shortness of breath, the rapid heart rate, the feeling of powerlessness.

What I can tell you is that it does get better. As you learn to accept that you have no control over her, her actions or her choices you will get better at letting go. Ironically, letting go is what sometimes gets the WAS to start questioning if the choice they are making is the right one. I can't say it will happen in your sitch for sure, but holding on for dear life certainly doesn't help!

Lots of WSs in particular want their cake and eat it too. They want to go off and do who knows what with who knows who, but have the LBS waiting in the wings in case they change their mind. When you start removing yourself as Plan B, sometimes they realize that Plan A is all that solid!
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Call me a whimp, but today so far I've had 3 major panic attacks and the third one is in mid-flow.


The reason is that you are grasping to re-estabish a feeling of control over your life.

When W cheated/left she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.

That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!

You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by smilie
this is the second time she has left in 10 years, that hope is almost gone. Why would she come back to somebody she sees as a loser a second time?


You missunderstood my take.

By hope i meant you - You cannot control your WW, but you can control your actions and the outcome of your life.

Put the effort in - real effort - Not to win your WW back, but for you - to live the best life you can.


Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by MrBrside
My WW cheating was the best thing that happened to me.

Seriously? And you was able to get over it and not hold it against her?


Get over it - yes. I love my life and i have an amazing relationship with our children.. Better than WW has with them IMO.

Hold against her - I'm grey rock. Interaction is to a bare minimum and i want nothing to do with her.. No so much because of the cheating, but because of the manipulation of our children.

I fought to save our relationship, and it wasnt bad. But i'm a lot happier now.



Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by MrBrside

There are several good books out there about understanding how women work, and how given emotions can sway from minute to minute.


Can you recommend any MrB?


One i read last week was "get inside her - the female perspective" - by Marni Kinrys.

That was written from a female perspective, which was interesting to read. Ironically, i found a lot of the content alligned with what a lot of male writters such as Robert Glover and Corey Wayne in relation to Alpha tendancies.
Posted By: Thornton Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 01:12 PM
I can relate to how you're feeling, Smilie.

Mine left when we were looking at houses to buy. It made zero sense to me that she was thinking about pulling the plug. I obsessed over the reasons why it happened for months on end.

The anxiety was the worst part for me. Feeling light headed and nauseous all the time was crazy making.

For me, my saving grace was the gym. I hit the gym hard and still do to this day, it's became my therapy.

You can also watch vids on YouTube about letting go etc. There are several good Ted Talks you can find online that I think would benefit you.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 01:29 PM
smilie, I saw your question to Mr. B (great work here by the way!) about getting over it. I think one of the realizations a lot of LBSs come to at some point is that the MR they are trying to save wasn't all that great. We have a tendency when we get BD'd to romanticize the MR. "It was the best MR ever!" "He/she were the best spouse ever!" Etc.

At some point reality sets in and you realize that reconciliation or not, you do NOT want to go back to the MR as it was prior to BD. I know this was the case in my sitch. Immediately after BD I was thinking about how was I going to let go fo a MR that I enjoyed? After a few weeks I remembered that I spent a lot of time thinking that I couldn't wait until my daughter turned 18 so that I would have the freedom to decide whether I wanted to stay in a MR that was pretty stagnant. Now a lot of the stagnancy was my fault. I had fallen into some pretty awful patterns that were contributing to the state of the MR. But the overall point was that in the days/weeks after BD I had in my head that my MR was the greatest ever and that I had to save it all costs.

We have a saying around here: You should be working towards MR 2.0, whether that is with your WAS or someone new. You want to improve to the point where your next MR will be successful! As someone above stated, there is always plenty of blame to go around in these sitches, your goal should be to become a man only a fool would leave.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Cadet

Its easy to figure out

Anything you think or the average person thinks,
the opposite will be true.

If you think left then it is right, and vice versa.

All that being said,
I agree don't try to figure it out.

Brilliant! So basically I'm Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party then?! You made me smile :-)
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by smilie


So basically I'm Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party then!


Spot on..

A rollercoaster !! - you just need to decide if you want to find your feet and move on, or stay on the crazy ride.

If and when you do speak to your WW, she will probably put it back on you...

Just remember - Cheaters rewrite history to espace accountability for their actions !
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Sorry man, I can relate. In the thick of my sitch I can remember the "WHY?" moments and, looking back now, the panic attacks. The shortness of breath, the rapid heart rate, the feeling of powerlessness.

I think it's the powerlessness that is the hardest to crawl back from as your power has been taken at a moments notice. Not only that she ensured that I couldn't support myself or instruct a lawyer by taking the savings. Thank god for Bitcoin, that's all I can say, only had a tiny bit, cashed that in and hired a lawyer. That one thing alone, helped me grab that tiny bit of control back.

Pounding heart, shakiness, cold tingles and lightheadedness - the worst!

Originally Posted by SteveLW
What I can tell you is that it does get better. As you learn to accept that you have no control over her, her actions or her choices you will get better at letting go. Ironically, letting go is what sometimes gets the WAS to start questioning if the choice they are making is the right one. I can't say it will happen in your sitch for sure, but holding on for dear life certainly doesn't help!

Letting go is the process I am going through at the moment and after 19 years, it's painful. God knows how people manage being together longer. I notice from the start that I can't control, nor would I want to control her or what she does. All I have ever asked for is respect and fairness. I suppose it's natural to want to cling on to this white-knuckle ride, but 'overrn' has already suggested letting her go in, in my mind at least.[/quote]

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Lots of WSs in particular want their cake and eat it too. They want to go off and do who knows what with who knows who, but have the LBS waiting in the wings in case they change their mind. When you start removing yourself as Plan B, sometimes they realize that Plan A is all that solid!

She will see this start happening over the next few days. I need to email her later agreeing to her suggestion to come and collect her things on 10 July (she never took anything with her). That will be 7 weeks since she left. I shall be pleasant, short and to the point.

My lawyer will be sending a letter to her lawyer paving the way forward over the next day or two. She wants to know if the wife will be filing for divorce and if so to submit a draft petition. She requests the remainder of the funds that were taken from the savings account (which was a legal claim money from a rogue dentists I saw) be returned immediately. Also she is to pay me interim expenses seeing as I haven't been able to work for 7 years and have been reliant on her income and that is to be a paid from 1st July.

So perhaps she'll start thinking differently knowing that she has to pay out almost the same as if she was living here, plus funding her new life. Who knows, I'm not expecting anything and the good thing is at this stage, I'm not threatening divorce and she is being invited to submit a draft petition, if that's what she wants to do.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
So perhaps she'll start thinking differently knowing that she has to pay out almost the same as if she was living here, plus funding her new life.

Logic NEVER wins out in these cases.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Put the effort in - real effort - Not to win your WW back, but for you - to live the best life you can.

Ok, get you. Yes, I need to start thinking like a single {solo?} person again and start to create the life I want without her in it. I suppose that's the angle I need to take seeing as she's gone now anyway.


Originally Posted by smilie
Get over it - yes. I love my life and i have an amazing relationship with our children.. Better than WW has with them IMO.

Hold against her - I'm grey rock. Interaction is to a bare minimum and i want nothing to do with her.. No so much because of the cheating, but because of the manipulation of our children.

I fought to save our relationship, and it wasnt bad. But i'm a lot happier now.

I took it that you had got back together. After reading this it sounds like you're not anymore?

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
One i read last week was "get inside her - the female perspective" - by Marni Kinrys.

Now there's a title! I'll see if I can give it a look.

Cheers for your time, very much appreciated!
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:17 PM
Good morning, Smile.

Originally Posted by smile
So, it looks like she has set up home elsewhere and didn't divert the post via the postal service as this can be traced and I "may" be able to find out where she is. So calculated and planned. I think that's it then. No hope.

Been there, done that. When my long-term XGF left, the first shock was her leaving, the second shock was discovering that in contrast to her words she'd planned this enough to change her D's school district before moving out. The second shock was the realization was there was no easy way out, no shortcut home.

"No hope" is a thinking error. She doesn't plan to return to you. That doesn't mean she won't change her mind. As others have pointed out before, at one point she was completely uninterested in you, then she wanted to marry you, then she wanted out. She's changed her mind before. It could happen again in time.

As a reference point, my long-term XGF and I reconciled.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
you just need to decide if you want to find your feet and move on, or stay on the crazy ride.

Think I'd prefer to find my feet at this stage as I'm not sure I could handle any more of this emotion and I need to get sorted.

Quote
If and when you do speak to your WW, she will probably put it back on you...

I remember this from before. She brought something up from years back just as we got together, trying to say that I had been chasing another woman just because I had sent her an email. I was an IT support guy for peaks sake, I sent loads of people emails! But that was litterally about 8 years prior to her going the first time! We got married since. AND then she brought it up again just before she walked out the door 4 weeks back. So that's 18 years ago! Mad.

Quote
Just remember - Cheaters rewrite history to espace accountability for their actions !

And probably tell everybody else what a bad and abusive guy you were, no doubt.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Been there, done that. When my long-term XGF left, the first shock was her leaving, the second shock was discovering that in contrast to her words she'd planned this enough to change her D's school district before moving out. The second shock was the realization was there was no easy way out, no shortcut home.

"No hope" is a thinking error. She doesn't plan to return to you. That doesn't mean she won't change her mind. As others have pointed out before, at one point she was completely uninterested in you, then she wanted to marry you, then she wanted out. She's changed her mind before. It could happen again in time.

No wonder a normal person can't follow. So basically what I am reading is, that these decisions are based solely on emotions and how she feels at any point in time?

Originally Posted by CWarrior
As a reference point, my long-term XGF and I reconciled.

Nice! Has it been a struggle? I know our was for the first year or so the first time. I was always treading on eggshells. It took me 5 years to trust her again. Then I got ill so I suppose I was a bit complacent for a long time focusing on feeling rough and being unable to work.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by smile
Seriously? And you was able to get over it and not hold it against her?

Many here have reconciled. Forgiveness is a choice, right? XW, XGF, XH, XBF come back and you've both made enough changes to make Relationship 2.0 more likely to succeed. You can either hold onto your pain, your anger, your desire to make them pay for the past--or you can let it go so you two can figure out if you can be happy together. It's not easy. The process often takes months if not longer.

Originally Posted by smile
It took me 5 years to trust her again.

You've gone through it before. (:
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Mine left when we were looking at houses to buy. It made zero sense to me that she was thinking about pulling the plug. I obsessed over the reasons why it happened for months on end.

It defy's logic that's for sure.

Originally Posted by Thornton
For me, my saving grace was the gym. I hit the gym hard and still do to this day, it's became my therapy.[quote]
Perhaps that's what I need to do. I have had a few workouts over the past couple of weeks. I plan to increase those, but I'm just shaking so much still 4 weeks on.


Originally Posted by Thornton
You can also watch vids on YouTube about letting go etc. There are several good Ted Talks you can find online that I think would benefit you.

I'll have a look, cheers
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
As someone above stated, there is always plenty of blame to go around in these sitches, your goal should be to become a man only a fool would leave.

Wow! Brilliant quote and true.

I wouldn't for a moment say that we had a brilliant marriage. Comfortable, regular maybe. In actual fact I recognised that it was a bit samey, especially due to the last years lock down stuff, everything was the same day in day out. She was working all the time, hadn't had a day of (with me) and I suggested to her that we discuss where we could be and how to create something to look forward to over the next year to get some excitement into our lives. That conversation was only a few weeks prior to her leaving.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by smile
Nice! Has it been a struggle? I know our was for the first year or so the first time.

It was. Like you, there was a second BD.. then a third BD, and now I've rebuffed her attempts to reconcile. Not everyone who falls in love is destined to be a great couple. I'd encourage reading the situations of May or Wayfarer or BluWave. They managed to R after a PA without pretending nothing had happened.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Many here have reconciled. Forgiveness is a choice, right? XW, XGF, XH, XBF come back and you've both made enough changes to make Relationship 2.0 more likely to succeed. You can either hold onto your pain, your anger, your desire to make them pay for the past--or you can let it go so you two can figure out if you can be happy together. It's not easy. The process often takes months if not longer.

The first time I wanted nothing more than to reconcile. I wouldn't entertain anybody telling me it was over and to split. I put all my energy into saving our marriage. This time seems different. I'm 10 years older and asking myself if I want to do this again further down the line. She lied at therapy, so if we had therapy again why would that be any different? I suppose she has told me she has been unfaithful this time.

Forgiveness is a decision. I'm not sure if I could forgive an affair as I've never knowingly been in the position to. But can I forgive somebody telling lies rather than the truth. Will I ever get the truth from her, even in therapy? If she can't ever do that - tell the truth in order to rebuild - then there can be nothing to rebuild as it would be build back on a lie, or a heap of lies.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by smile
The first time I wanted nothing more than to reconcile. I'm 10 years older and asking myself if I want to do this again further down the line. She lied at therapy, so if we had therapy again why would that be any different?


Originally Posted by smile
Forgiveness is a decision. But can I forgive somebody telling lies rather than the truth. Will I ever get the truth from her, even in therapy? If she can't ever do that - tell the truth in order to rebuild - then there can be nothing to rebuild as it would be build back on a lie, or a heap of lies.

In contrast to your first BD, May already trusts her H less than a year back, despite pain and anger. After deciding to piece, they're facing past wrongs in therapy including the affair

The Oxford Dictionary says to forgive is to "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." I hope you are capable of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not just for reconciliation.

I agree it would be hard to rebuild a solid relationship without honesty.

It's also okay if PAs are a dealbreaker for you. Several on these forums wouldn't reconcile after a PA.
Posted By: BL42 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 04:44 PM
smilie,

Sorry you're in this situation, but glad you're here seeking help...

Originally Posted by smilie
Background: 10 years ago I was out of work due to losing my job and the recession. It took me 1.5 years to get a suitable position. Now, this time, I have not been able to work due to ill health for 7 years. She says it's not because of that and she doesn't know what it is.

So you've been unemployed for 7 years? That's a very long time. Regardless of what she says (a common saying around here is believe none of what they say) it seems likely it could be a factor in play in your sitch.

Are you still in very bad health? If you are able to work I'd recommend seeking out employment for several reasons. First, it will give you some purpose / reason to get out of bed in the morning. Second, it will help you meet and interact with new people. Third, it will improve your financial status. Fourth, maybe (just maybe) it'll improve her view of you (but don't make that the reason).

Originally Posted by smilie
Well the wife is 45 in August and I am 55, so there's 10 years between us which has never really been a problem, that I've noticed. We don't have any kids, which is a bit of an emotional subject, but happy to discuss.

Sorry about your struggles with having kids. That must have been difficult and probably added stress to the relationship. That said, no children may make your sitch a bit easier in terms of detachment as you won't have to constantly interact related to child care.

Originally Posted by smilie
She had an affair with me prior to leaving her boyfriend and left him in the same manner as she's left me now and 10 years previously (2011).

Sounds like the two of you didn't come into the relationship on the best terms. This might be a bit of karma coming your way, as you may be experiencing what her ex did when she cheated with you. Maybe she told you how bad her Ex was and it made you feel she/you were justified in cheating? But then it turned out it was her all along.

Originally Posted by smilie
It has amazed me how she has fitted in an affair. The only way she could have done this is to take days off work without me knowing. I kept saying to her that I am aware that she hasn't taken any days off work and that she needs to have a break. Huh! Unbenown to me, she was, more than likely! Days off with the OM and only a 15 minute walk from her office to home. I could have gone down to her work at any point and met her for lunch and found that she wasn't there. But that never happened and I can't work out how she has done this.

My Ex-W had to "go in work early" and "stay late" and literally had relations in the office during the work day to the point HR/administration got involved. Another common thing I've read on this forum is how when there's a will (to cheat) there's always a way (to cheat) regardless of what the LBS thinks about their schedule...they'll figure out a way to do it. Hence, you can't control it.

Originally Posted by smilie
My lawyer is on it and will be requesting that the balance of the monies that were not evenly distributed, be paid back.

Good you have a lawyer - protect yourself!

Originally Posted by Thornton
I can relate to how you're feeling, Smilie.

Mine left when we were looking at houses to buy. It made zero sense to me that she was thinking about pulling the plug. I obsessed over the reasons why it happened for months on end.

The anxiety was the worst part for me. Feeling light headed and nauseous all the time was crazy making.

For me, my saving grace was the gym. I hit the gym hard and still do to this day, it's became my therapy.

You can also watch vids on YouTube about letting go etc. There are several good Ted Talks you can find online that I think would benefit you.

Mine was doing yard work, buying new carpets, recently re-did the family room and one of the bathrooms, asking my mother about Summer family vacation. Made no sense. But it is was it is.

Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by Cadet
Its easy to figure out

Anything you think or the average person thinks,
the opposite will be true.

If you think left then it is right, and vice versa.

All that being said,
I agree don't try to figure it out.

Brilliant! So basically I'm Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party then?! You made me smile :-)

Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party. Great analogy! I'm gonna remember that one.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by smilie
So perhaps she'll start thinking differently knowing that she has to pay out almost the same as if she was living here, plus funding her new life.

Logic NEVER wins out in these cases.

True, and yet it's so hard to understand.
Posted By: Cadet Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Brilliant! So basically I'm Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party then?! You made me smile :-)


In short - YES

I actually did some research about that at one point to see if Lewis Carroll was suffering from something similar.

It is interesting.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
In contrast to your first BD, May already trusts her H less than a year back, despite pain and anger. After deciding to piece, they're facing past wrongs in therapy including the affair

Blimey, that's good. I suppose it is just a decision and as long as there is 100% honesty.

Quote
The Oxford Dictionary says to forgive is to "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." I hope you are capable of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not just for reconciliation.

I like to think I would be. I have been doing a lot of thinking about her family life, why her father went away, why her mother stopped speaking (literally) apart from to people she knew and then it was just a word or two and why she smoked herself to death. Why her father was living with another woman in a different town and he told the family her was living with "his mate and his wife" (funny how when his wife died, his mate left the flat and he got together with the woman), why nobody was permitted to go up and see him and he only came home for a day at the weekend. He always told people at parties and gatherings that my wife was his "favourite little girl". Arrrgh.

I think something went on in her childhood that she has repressed. First her father abandoned her at a very young age 3 or 4, but I can only guess at the reason why he went away (apparently he bought a business), but it brings shivers down my spine at the possibility of something more involved. This allows me to understand more and therefore probably forgive.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
So you've been unemployed for 7 years? That's a very long time. Regardless of what she says (a common saying around here is believe none of what they say) it seems likely it could be a factor in play in your sitch.

Are you still in very bad health? If you are able to work I'd recommend seeking out employment for several reasons. First, it will give you some purpose / reason to get out of bed in the morning. Second, it will help you meet and interact with new people. Third, it will improve your financial status. Fourth, maybe (just maybe) it'll improve her view of you (but don't make that the reason).

I was an IT contractor prior to becoming ill. Had an extremely violent vertigo attack on night and that was that. Although that calmed down within about 2 weeks or so, I have been left permenantly dizzy, blurry eyes, severe tinnitus, chronic fatigue, confusion, memory issues and I lose words a lot. It varies day by day. I wear reading glasses in short bursts as they make me spin. And then there's the unannounced vertigo attacks that wake me up and last for days and put me off kilter for weeks on end. It's like being on a ship in a rough sea 24/7, or just coming off a Waltz ride at the fairground. All good fun. I've got used to dealing with it day to day, but couldn't be reliable for work as I can't do things for extended periods (greater than 10 minutes), such as looking down, bending over and moving around fast.

Over the past couple of years since it's got to a stage where I wanted to start a business online under my own terms. I have some ideas and the wife said that she wanted to do it with me, but she never seemed to want to discuss it. I was waiting for her to start it with me, but she never did.

Anyway, there's my brief medical history. I wouldn't be able to hold down a job and would be unreliable.

Originally Posted by BL42
Sounds like the two of you didn't come into the relationship on the best terms. This might be a bit of karma coming your way, as you may be experiencing what her ex did when she cheated with you. Maybe she told you how bad her Ex was and it made you feel she/you were justified in cheating? But then it turned out it was her all along.

This is my thinking also. I am a firm believer in Karma and your comments echo exactly my thoughts. It never did sit right with me. I felt so guilty after she left him. However, she used to tell me that her wasn't attentive to her and used to come home from work and play on his computer games all night, every night.

I've always been attentive, not necessarily romantically because I'm dizzy a lot of the time, and don't do games.

Quote

My Ex-W had to "go in work early" and "stay late" and literally had relations in the office during the work day to the point HR/administration got involved. Another common thing I've read on this forum is how when there's a will (to cheat) there's always a way (to cheat) regardless of what the LBS thinks about their schedule...they'll figure out a way to do it. Hence, you can't control it.

This is the thing you see. She works a 15 min walk from home. Leaves to get there for 9, leaves dead on 5 and gets home at 5:20. I walk her to work some days and meet her also. And I meet her for lunch every now and again. This hasn't happened over the past month though. She always rings me at lunchtime from work and she's in the office as I can hear the background and people pop in and ask her questions. We speak for ages, 40 mins sometimes. I tell her not to phone and use her lunch hour, but she says she wants to and she likes talking to me. The local office is small and there are only 3 or 4 women who work there. I've met them all!

The only difference is she is going for Partner at work and she has been going back and forth to head office, straight from home, for department meetings in casual clothes, etc. She hasn't had a day off this year, so perhaps she's been taking a day off and pretending to go to the head office. And that's only been happening over the past 6-8 weeks or so.

Think I'm giving up on logic! :-)
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Cadet
Originally Posted by smilie
Brilliant! So basically I'm Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party then?! You made me smile :-)


In short - YES

I actually did some research about that at one point to see if Lewis Carroll was suffering from something similar.

It is interesting.

Seriously! That would have been a been a story wouldn't it? I wonder if anybody has written a book about this.....
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 07:58 PM
Wayfarer is my new favorite poster so I repost a gem she posted in MLC:

The process of "coming out of it" whether it be waywardness or MLC isn't linear. We would like it to be, but it never it. Which as ovr states its important to focus on your basic DBing tenets. Detach, GAL, and 180. But not to save the MR to save yourself from the chaos. To grow and learn. To heal. And to move forward what ever direction that may be.

As far as my opinion on the above MRs mine included I don't think a single one of these was a case of full blown MLC. MLC is a different animal entirely. In the newbie area there's a lot of poopooing of naming the problem with a WS/WAS because there's a certain group of folks who are of the the thinking that naming the problem is just giving a name to the monster allowing an LBS to excuse terrible behavior of the WS/WAS. But my personal opinion after being here almost 2 years and reading tons and tons of threads you can classify the WS/WAS. I'd say all of our spouses fell more into the wayward category than MLC.

Most of them have a touch of MLC or milestone year crisis, but it's mostly difficulties in the marriage combined with questioning life choices/FOO turmoil/mental health/addiction/etc and making a series of selfish decisions to cope. They deal with their inner turmoil by turning further and further outward from the marriage, their spouse and themselves instead of inward to deal with the relationship and personal emotional crisis. i.e. If I sleep with this person I'll fill the holes in my soul - If I flirt with this person I'll feel worthwhile - If I leave this relationship I'll be happy - If I start over it'll fix everything. Sort of MLC thinking but they don't like go through regression or replay or what ever you call it. They just want to fix things with an escape not return to youth.

As I said above I don't think I can say any of the above people who reconned, and adding May to that list, had a spouse in a full blown MLC. They were waywards. They share similar traits, they put us through similar trials but its just not the same thing. And all of us who reconned have had very, very different paths, very different MRs starting out, very different WS/WAS, very different family situations. Some of us went beginning to end with the spouse in the home. Some WS left and came back. Blu's H left to live with the OW. She had pretty much written off recon. May and I put ourselves through some really hurtful moments trying to stand for our MRs while in an IHS. My H was having a very active, very public PA/EA while still in the home. There is very little all of the above LBSs shared in common except the feelings we were/are dealing with.

I know reading through a lot of the archived stuff there were MLC recons. But it's pretty few and far between. MLCers put the people nearest and dearest to them through some really awful stuff for years. It's a big ask on their part for an LBS to 1) continue to stand and 2) forgive and repair the marriage after all of that. What we we're put through with waywards is so short term in comparison to what a lot of MLC LBS have to deal with. It's a lot easier to forgive 4 months, 6 months, 18 months of chaos than it is to forgive years upon years of that. And as JJ stated on the other thread this is part choice and part chance. We recon because we wanted the recon and so did our spouses. There was always a potential that one of us wouldn't want that. And like ovr said above there is no predicting or controlling the outcome in these things.

Sorry for the book. I know you asked a simple question looking for a simple answer, but I don't know that any of this stuff has simple answers.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 08:06 PM
So I've been 'dark' for an entire week, but I needed to email the wife this evening to confirm her request to collect her clothes in a couple of weeks (she didn't take ANYTHING with her, apart from her laptop, paperwork, hairdryer and straighteners). I also attached a bill that she required to adjust some payments from her bank.

Very brief message, no fluff, polite, no kisses, just as if I was talking to a friend. So that's that done and he email she sent over a week ago requiring confirmation replied to. Feels horrible.

She should get my lawyers letter over the next couple of days. Why do I feel bad for standing up for myself and getting a lawyer? I don't want to go up against my wife as an opponent, but she has treated me horribly and I need to stand up for myself, nicely of course! I'm all about being honourable and equitable. In my mind she has put herself in this position and put me, once again, in a position that I didn't want t be in.

I guess I'll just have to learn to accept that my wife is the opposition :-/
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 08:33 PM
smilie, one word of advice. Do not look for excuses to reach out. This is a common mistake by LBSs. "I had to contact her because she is supposed to be here to pick up her close in 3 weeks." ?? Really? Does her coming by to get clothes on 7/10 warrant an email on 6/22?

Your mind will trick you into this kind of logic because the longer you go without contact the bigger the loss of control will get. Most of us can only handle that feeling to a certain point and then we feel we need to act. We call it the delusion of actions. "IF I am doing something, then I am still in control!"

Remember this: Doing nothing IS doing something. If she doesn't come get her clothes, no skin off your nose right? It is her that is having to live without them. It is her that should be reaching out to make the arrangements.

The rules of engagement with her at this point should be really simple: Do not initiate contact. If she does, then: If it is informational then you have no reason to respond. If it is a question, then answer it only after some time has passed (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.

This is what it looks like:

Her: "I need to come by in the next couple of weeks to get my clothes."

INFORMATIONAL, no response necessary.

2 days later: HER: "Did you get the message about needing to come by and get my clothes?"

QUESTION. After 2 hours, YOU: "Yes."

2 days later HER: "You never told me when I can come to get my clothes, does 7/10 work?"

YOU, after an hour: "Yes."

HER: "Ok what time?"

After another hour YOU: "Anytime after 10am until 2pm. Then anytime after 5pm."

HER: Okay, I will be there at noon. Thank you."

No question from her, the exchange is over.

Also, one tweak to this:

"Very brief message, no fluff, polite, no kisses, just as if I was talking to a friend."

Change to to as if you were talking to the cashier at the store! Look up sandi's 37 rules, it is a sticky thread. Very important that you start learning and following them.

I know you said it feels horrible, but as you get better at it that will change. It will actually feel empowering! It is amazing how LBSs react when the WAS isn't sad, mopey, down, depressed. When you are upbeat, friendly but not overly, pleased, even fulfilled they will start to wonder why and what is going on. After a few exchanges like the above you will start seeing her "temp checking" you. To see if you've moved on or if she still has you on the hook.

sandi's 37 rules are GOLD. PURE GOLD
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 08:46 PM
Lol LH I'm always at the top or bottom of the list aren't I wink thanks for the shout out.

smilie, you have a WAW that is serious about this being done and over like yesterday. This is pretty rare. But it seems like you're not in a place of being absolutely desperate to save the MR more so desperate to deal with the high speed train she's put you on. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that interpretation. So just a few thoughts based on that assessment, sandi, and SteveLW like to remind folks particularly LBHs that WAWs when they leave you need to understand they've been thinking about leaving for months or even years. So you need to understand she's been rolling this around in her head over and over and over again for a long time. She for whatever reason whether it be logical or illogical decided she needed to check out and do so with the clothes on her back and a weekender and pretty much nothing else. She's in a hurry. But that doesn't mean you have to be. Take your time. You have all the time in the world to move forward with the D. To make arrangements for pickups and banking, bills, etc. Just because she's rushing to the finish line doesn't mean you need to be. Do things on your timeline. This isn't a race to the bottom it's a divorce.

And as far as that's all concerned, you're W isn't your enemy or your opposition. So no you don't have to accept that. But it is perfectly normal to feel a sense of guilt worrying about you first. It's normal to feel uneasy preparing to protect your interests in a legal battle against a person you thought you'd grow old with. But viewing this as a war or a contest where there has to be a clear winner will give you no peace. Try to see marriage in it's most bare bones legal context. In that context it's a partnership joined through a contracted agreement. Your wife is in breach of said contract and both of you would like to be released from said contract due to that breach. It was egregious and neither of you can move forward in this partnership because of that. You are organizing the dissolution of a partnership. You're ending a contractual obligation. You must split your assets and liabilities. You must both look out for your own best interests. Concede to what is fair even if you think you deserve better or more than what's deemed fair. And you both will have figure out what are your actual non negotiables and what's worth letting go of so it can move forward. You are not in some kind of battle. You are simply handling a business transaction.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
smilie, one word of advice. Do not look for excuses to reach out. This is a common mistake by LBSs. "I had to contact her because she is supposed to be here to pick up her close in 3 weeks." ?? Really? Does her coming by to get clothes on 7/10 warrant an email on 6/22?

Your mind will trick you into this kind of logic because the longer you go without contact the bigger the loss of control will get. Most of us can only handle that feeling to a certain point and then we feel we need to act. We call it the delusion of actions. "IF I am doing something, then I am still in control!"

Remember this: Doing nothing IS doing something. If she doesn't come get her clothes, no skin off your nose right? It is her that is having to live without them. It is her that should be reaching out to make the arrangements.

The rules of engagement with her at this point should be really simple: Do not initiate contact. If she does, then: If it is informational then you have no reason to respond. If it is a question, then answer it only after some time has passed (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.

I know you said it feels horrible, but as you get better at it that will change. It will actually feel empowering! It is amazing how LBSs react when the WAS isn't sad, mopey, down, depressed. When you are upbeat, friendly but not overly, pleased, even fulfilled they will start to wonder why and what is going on. After a few exchanges like the above you will start seeing her "temp checking" you. To see if you've moved on or if she still has you on the hook.

sandi's 37 rules are GOLD. PURE GOLD

Ah but, this has already happened. So on 15th June, she emailed me to say that she would like to come and collect her clothes. She has arranged for he sister to come with her and asked if 10:30 would be ok. She asked me to let her know".

I waited until today as I wanted to respond just before my lawyer's letter went out. It was also important to let her know about the change to the Standing orders as this would impinge on my lawyers demands if I didn't do that. I wrote in response:

"Yep, that's all fine for the 10th.

I have also attached the lasted Council Tax Bill so that you can adjust the standing orders appropriately. I think the amounts are shown in the bottom box together with the dates. You'll find a fair decrease!

See ya,"


That's it!

I was not finding and excuse, it was something she requested over a week ago. I just waited this long to respond. Perhaps I should have waited to see if she would have chased then? Then she may have thought I was chasing after my lawyers letter went out (tomorrow) which his what I was concerned about.

Perhaps I misunderstood the "rules of engagement?". Seemed appropriate to me. frown
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/22/21 10:24 PM
Wayfarer: Now that's a sobering perspective. Thank you.

She was on a speeding train at the start, but she has since slowed. She mentioned about a D in the second week after she went and I met her as I wanted to hear it from her own mouth. She didn't seem sure, but perhaps it was an act. Nevertheless, she hasn't take action and two weeks later she hasn't mentioned it again and the letter she said her lawyer would send me hasn't materialised. However, because she said to expect it, I decided to get myself a lawyer so that they could go through it and respond.

I also needed to employ a lawyer in order to establish immediate financial concerns. As I have been unable to work for a while due to illness, she pays for everything (yes embarrassing, but I can't help having a complex neurological condition) and since she has gone she has not only taken all the savings, but also ceased paying for some things. So interim maintenance payments needed to be arranged. The lawyer is also gauging her intention and passing on my intention to file if she is in agreement that she wants a D. It's also a weight off my mind.

I haven't seen her as my opponent. What I was trying to get at is that she has put me in a position of seeing her as my opponent. This is not what I wanted. D is not what I wanted. I would have preferred a conversation, but it is what it is.

This is hard to navigate as I think logically and I am once again learning that this is not a logical issue, thanks to others' input here.

The bill notification was important as the payments are time sensitive and the values changed. So standing orders needed to be amended by certain dates. I thought that was fair so that she wasn't paying out over 10x more from her account than she needed to. That would have gone against me with her lawyer. I'm not even sure that she has even instructed this woman she works with to be her lawyer, but she gave that impression. Like I said, I have heard nothing from them in 2 weeks since she said I would. So I have been wondering for that time if she really wanted a D after all.

We'll see what my lawyers letter triggers. Other than that I have no more reasons to contact her, so that will be that now, until she turns up (or not) on the 10th July to collect her stuff.

Do I want to work at it? I'm in two minds as she said she was unfaithful. But I would like her to have a truthful discussion with me one day if she chooses to. I do wonder if she is capable of this though, either being truthful or having a discussion. The ball is in her court now anyway. I now have the time to get a handle on my emotions and concentrate on me. I also need to find somewhere to call home as I will need to vacate this rented property located 15 mins from her work. We moved here just for that.

So work on me - 180 - and darkness for a while. The only way for her to contact me officially now is via my lawyer, unless she decides to reach out another way, in which case I shan't respond and I'll post here first!!!! :-)

Thanks for your eye opening comments. I found them really helpful, but please do pick me up if my thinking is wrong here. I'm still finding my bearings.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
sandi's 37 rules are GOLD. PURE GOLD

So I have read through Sandi's 37 Rules and I cannot see that I haven't adhered to them, at all.

Rule 35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

- I didn't. I replied to an email where she asked a question, after a week. What did I do wrong here? smile

I've read again through you example conversation flow and I can't see that I've pursued or contacted unnecessarily. frown
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 11:06 AM
Smile,

You’re good nothing to see here. Move on.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by SteveLW
sandi's 37 rules are GOLD. PURE GOLD

So I have read through Sandi's 37 Rules and I cannot see that I haven't adhered to them, at all.

Rule 35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

- I didn't. I replied to an email where she asked a question, after a week. What did I do wrong here? smile

I've read again through you example conversation flow and I can't see that I've pursued or contacted unnecessarily. frown


Smilie, thanks for the additional details. I agree with you, you did nothing wrong. My post was more a reminder than trying to say that you did anything wrong. I'd also ask you not to see us giving guidance as reprimanding or coming down on you. There is no true right or wrong here. There are just things that you can do to further hurt your chances of the outcome you want in your sitch. It sounds like you've been doing well with not constantly contacting her, but having been through it before I know the temptation to do so can creep up on you.

Just keep up the good work You'll get through this!
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 11:44 AM
Huh?
Originally Posted by LH19
You’re good nothing to see here. Move on.

Huh? Sorry don't quite understand. Do you mean that the email engagement was fine. Move on? to....

Please accept my apologies for being thick, I don't think my brain is engaged today as I feel quite stressed about this letter going to the W lawyer.

I really don't want a divorce ... just yet ... but I can't be in this situation either due to financial pressures, so something needs to give and it's likely to be my sanity at this stage! confused
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Huh?
Originally Posted by LH19
You’re good nothing to see here. Move on.

Huh? Sorry don't quite understand. Do you mean that the email engagement was fine. Move on? to....

Please accept my apologies for being thick, I don't think my brain is engaged today as I feel quite stressed about this letter going to the W lawyer.

I really don't want a divorce ... just yet ... but I can't be in this situation either due to financial pressures, so something needs to give and it's likely to be my sanity at this stage! confused

Move on from the email engagement. No one thing you do right or wrong is going to effect the outcome. This is hard stuff and probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 01:19 PM
[quote=SteveLW]Smilie, thanks for the additional details. I agree with you, you did nothing wrong. My post was more a reminder than trying to say that you did anything wrong.[/post]
Phew! Thought I'd made a huge mistake there - although that would have been part of the learning process.

[quote=SteveLW]I'd also ask you not to see us giving guidance as reprimanding or coming down on you. There is no true right or wrong here.[/post]
Don't worry I wouldn't, on all counts. I understand that there is no right or wrong and every situation is different. However I do value people experience so that I can learn.

[quote=SteveLW]There are just things that you can do to further hurt your chances of the outcome you want in your sitch. It sounds like you've been doing well with not constantly contacting her, but having been through it before I know the temptation to do so can creep up on you.[/post]
Yes it can.

[quote=SteveLW]Just keep up the good work You'll get through this![/post]
It is a trifle difficult. I have noticed that the post for her has dried up, so instead of diverting it, she has changed her address with the different companies I would imagine. I don't think there's any likelihood of her returning this time, not if she's done that.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
This is hard stuff and probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life.

You are spot on there, indeed it is.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 06:00 PM
Previous post tags wrong - reposted :-(

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Smilie, thanks for the additional details. I agree with you, you did nothing wrong. My post was more a reminder than trying to say that you did anything wrong.

Phew! Thought I'd made a huge mistake there - although that would have been part of the learning process.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I'd also ask you not to see us giving guidance as reprimanding or coming down on you. There is no true right or wrong here.

Don't worry I wouldn't, on all counts. I understand that there is no right or wrong and every situation is different. However I do value people experience so that I can learn.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
There are just things that you can do to further hurt your chances of the outcome you want in your sitch. It sounds like you've been doing well with not constantly contacting her, but having been through it before I know the temptation to do so can creep up on you.

Yes it can.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Just keep up the good work You'll get through this!

It is a trifle difficult. I have noticed that the post for her has dried up, so instead of diverting it, she has changed her address with the different companies I would imagine. I don't think there's any likelihood of her returning this time, not if she's done that.
Posted By: Thornton Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 07:14 PM
Hey Smilie,

My ex moved 1,000 miles away near her family, got a new place, bought a dog, and enrolled her daughter in school there. And she still came back (although she ended up leaving 10 months later after moving back).

My point is, your W changing her address means nothing in regards to the possibility of her reconciling with you.

She has it in her mind right now, that things are over, so of course she's going to change her mailing address. But remember, feelings can and do change. How she feels today is not how she will feel 3 months, 6 months, or a year from now.

Give her the space she needs to figure her life out. And in the meantime, work on self improvement and get yourself strong and confident again.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 07:42 PM
Hi Thornton,
Originally Posted by Thornton
My ex moved 1,000 miles away near her family, got a new place, bought a dog, and enrolled her daughter in school there. And she still came back (although she ended up leaving 10 months later after moving back).

My point is, your W changing her address means nothing in regards to the possibility of her reconciling with you.

She has it in her mind right now, that things are over, so of course she's going to change her mailing address. But remember, feelings can and do change. How she feels today is not how she will feel 3 months, 6 months, or a year from now.

I know what you mean. It took her 9 months last time, but she didn't redirect anything. If it is that long, then I will be out of this rented house and elsewhere as the rental period will be up, more than likely as she is paying the rent. Also, that will mean that she will {could} be with the OM for that length of time also.

Originally Posted by Thornton
Give her the space she needs to figure her life out. And in the meantime, work on self improvement and get yourself strong and confident again.

Why does her life keep needing so much sorting out though? I still don't get why she wouldn't verbalise that she felt there was an issue when she thought there was.
Posted By: Thornton Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 08:22 PM
Who knows why she's not a good communicator, although I have my suspicions.

When I read your story and about her history of cheating, and also about her childhood, I highly suspect she has issues that have nothing to do with you or your marriage.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 08:52 PM
The more I think about that also over the weeks, I think that I would agree.

Something hit me today and that was how she had a lot of clients at work (she's a lawyer) in the same week prior to leaving. She had booked the next week off (apparently a while before, even though she didn't tell me). If that week had been booked in advance, then she wouldn't have had a rush of clients, as their appointments would have been previously booked as usual and no appointments would have been able to have been made for the week she was to be off.

In the past when she has had to have time off last minute, she has phoned around her clients to rearrange their appointments to come in at an earlier day so that she can then have that time off. So it stands to reason that she had not had her week off booked in advance (as she told me), but actually booked it last minute and had to rearrange her appointments for that week, to the week earlier - hence the rush of clients.

This tells me that there was not an element of planning here, but a rushed decision, following a conversation the weekend prior where I stated that she seemed to hold work in a higher regard than our relationship, as she didn't want to discuss financial concerns, but preferred to discuss work issues. Other things were said during that conversation and I may have even indicated that it was strange how she kept talking about her team leader at head office and how he came to see her at the local branch and how she went up to the head office a couple of times over a month or two.

She has stated in the text message when she said it was over and that she had feelings for somebody else, that it really wasn't anybody she worked with - "believe nothing they say and half of what they do?"

So although it comes across as planned in some ways, it also comes across as rushed in others.

I know, I'm trying to apply logic again, but I get the feeling that she thought I was "on to her" while I was making an innocent comment, which caused her to bring forward her plans maybe? IDK.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Thornton
Who knows why she's not a good communicator, although I have my suspicions..

This was brought up in our marriage counselling sessions 9 years back - that she couldn't/wouldn't communicate.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/23/21 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Smile
180's last time: become more independent, spend time at the gym, do my own stuff rather than always do stuff with her - can't remember the rest. i haven't kept up with them as 3.5 year after we got back together I had a severe vertigo attack that changed my life and the dizziness has never gone, which I why I cannot work. So once again I have fallen back to depend on her and allow her to be in control over everything, simple because I was too ill for about 5 years when it was really bad.

Hi Smile,

Communication takes work from both parties. Listening is challenging. When I asked about the issues she raised 10yrs ago in therapy, you cited your 180s but not her issues. Should we assume they are the same? If her original issues went unheard or unresolved, I could imagine her giving up on communication.

As for your 180s--1) being more independent, 2) being more fit, 3) finding ways to entertain yourself without her--you say you stopped these. It's easy to imagine intermittent vertigo making these more challenging. It's hard to imagine there weren't ways to do them if they were a priority, especially item #2 and #3.

I guess now her only obligation to you is to write a check. Are you reaching out to find support groups and/or services for your condition? Family? Neighbors? Churches? In my area, many will help, even if the help's not comprehensive. This must be an especially challenging time for you and I hope you're getting aid.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 05:20 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Communication takes work from both parties. Listening is challenging. When I asked about the issues she raised 10yrs ago in therapy, you cited your 180s but not her issues. Should we assume they are the same? If her original issues went unheard or unresolved, I could imagine her giving up on communication.

Her issues from what I can remember were that she felt overwhelmed because I was out of work for a while and she came home each day to me having to be upbeat, as I was run down due to being our of work. (It was a recession and it took me 2 years to find work. I found an IT contract 2 months after she left. When I found work she continued to come and go for 7 months) She also had an issue with thinking I was seeing a girl at work as she had read an email that I sent and interpreted it as flirting - it wasn't and was just me being nice! I was an IT support guy and sent emails to loads of people. I've have never looked at another woman since we have been together. It was also mentioned that I didn't listen. The thing with this is that she never raised any issues to listen to, so that was confusing.

So basically, I think it was because she was overwhelmed as we were fighting for our house and creditors were chasing for money as I was out of work and she was the only person bringing in the income. Much like now, I suppose - although there are no creditors chasing and we are renting.

We have spoken about this over the past 7 years though and she has mentioned that it's fine. I don't like not bringing in an income and have had a fair few ideas to get something started from home on my own terms and for us to work on that together. She says that she was interested in doing that, but never did anything towards it and I was waiting for her to sort-of commit to it as some money would have been necessary to be spent to start with.

Perhaps she saw this as me not doing what I was saying I wanted to do? I don't know.

I'm explaining this as it appears that I am a lazy git, but I'm really not and this Vestibular Migraine condition is awful to live with, with constant dizziness, chronic fatigue, eye and ear issues, etc.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
As for your 180s--1) being more independent, 2) being more fit, 3) finding ways to entertain yourself without her--you say you stopped these. It's easy to imagine intermittent vertigo making these more challenging. It's hard to imagine there weren't ways to do them if they were a priority, especially item #2 and #3.

Until my initial vertigo attack I was doing ok. I was more independent and I worked at my fitness levels at the gym. My dizziness isn't intermittent though and when I had that violent vertigo attack it was hard. It was hard to get around and just function for the first 3 years or so, so of course I fell into becoming dependent on my wife again. What else could I do? It was as much as I could do to get through each day. Still to this day, it's a similar story, but I have always kept my fitness levels up as much as I can.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I guess now her only obligation to you is to write a check.

And this is so sad, isn't it? Makes me feel useless.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Are you reaching out to find support groups and/or services for your condition? Family? Neighbors? Churches? In my area, many will help, even if the help's not comprehensive. This must be an especially challenging time for you and I hope you're getting aid.

There aren't any support groups, except a couple online which I gave up on as it was all about people wanting to take pills and I couldn't stare at a computer screen all the time because of my eyes. I have no family and neighbours that I reached out to don't want to know. Absolutely nobody has come to see if I'm OK. Even the doctors don't want to know or understand - a common theme that I have had for 7 years. Yes it is challenging and this stress makes it even more so as it makes symptoms much worse.

Well after typing this I feel like I'm a lazy SoB that won't work and has relied on his wife (without discussion) to bring in the money. Although factually this is the case, this isn't how discussion have been and I'm really not lazy. I would do anything to be able to work and to bring in an income, I truly would, and it is so upsetting to think that having this condition that I can't control and didn't asked for, is the one thing that has ruined my marriage, just because of money.

My wife knew that I was conscious of this and I have always suggested starting up different forms of income that we could do together in spare time and I could work on during the day. She said that she was up for it but when it came to doing anything with the ideas, she never committed. So I was always waiting for her to want to work together, which never happened. I should have started alone perhaps, in hindsight.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:18 AM
After replying to CWarrior, I realise that it would appear to be all my fault that this has happened again. I have not brought in an income due to this dreaded condition and I am probably less of the man that I was because of it.

No wonder she left. Found somebody who's not ill and who has an income or in financially stable. It doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't help to build up an alternative income stream (and I would have liked and was waiting for that support), but I take full responsibility for her leaving.

I just wish she would have said something in the 7 years that I have had this condition and certainly when she was thinking of leaving. Rather than acting as if everything is fine, telling me everything is fine and telling me that she loved me right up until the day before she left.

So I give up? My illness isn't going to suddenly go away, so why would she come back to useless me?

It's my fault, period. I've lost my wife and gave her cause to leave me for another, more suitable man. I get it and I will have to live with that for the rest of my life.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 08:14 AM
I have been reading Sandi's story and "Was2Sad"'s response.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1119385#Post1119385

I can't help feeling that this is what my wife was/is thinking and the battle she is going through. Reading this makes me feel physically sick, as if I am somehow getting a glimpse into my wife's head, thoughts and her new life.

The only difference at this stage is that my wife has admitted a PA. I still can't fully understand why H's don't ever seem to be given any opportunity to address the issues in the M. Nothing is ever said, brought up or mentioned. Also I am finding that it is mainly women that exhibit this type of behaviour - is this correct?
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 10:29 AM
Smilie,

You are still trying to process / understand your WW's mindset. - We have all done it, so we all understand how you are feeling.

I know it doesnt make it any easier, but trust me when i say that its pointless.

You are sitting there, trying to analyse this with a logical outlook ( although your emotions will be in full swing as well ) and it really is pointless.

Reading old threads may help you understand the mindset, but you can get consumed by it and read posts that give you a false hope.. Your WW is running on emotion, so there is nothing you can do - apart from work on you.

You also need to be careful ( we have seen it here time and time again ) not to cherry pick the responses that people did post as positive.. ie x did this and y did this and their wives came back. For the most part, assuming what x and y did will work in your sitch is futile.

Focus on you and what you can control.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by smilie
After replying to CWarrior, I realise that it would appear to be all my fault that this has happened again. I have not brought in an income due to this dreaded condition and I am probably less of the man that I was because of it.

No wonder she left. Found somebody who's not ill and who has an income or in financially stable. It doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't help to build up an alternative income stream (and I would have liked and was waiting for that support), but I take full responsibility for her leaving.

I just wish she would have said something in the 7 years that I have had this condition and certainly when she was thinking of leaving. Rather than acting as if everything is fine, telling me everything is fine and telling me that she loved me right up until the day before she left.

So I give up? My illness isn't going to suddenly go away, so why would she come back to useless me?

It's my fault, period. I've lost my wife and gave her cause to leave me for another, more suitable man. I get it and I will have to live with that for the rest of my life.


smilie, again, she took vows: for better or worse, in sickness and health, til death do us part.

Remember, you cannot change someone. You cannot fix her. It sounds like she has had issues committing in relationships her whole life. I do not blame you for getting ill. Maybe you have some blame for being blind to her not being a person that can remain committed.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
I still can't fully understand why H's don't ever seem to be given any opportunity to address the issues in the M.

This is actually false. You were probably given warnings but not the ones you were look for at the night. A man wants to be beaten over the head with a baseball bat. I rarely happens that way.
Originally Posted by smilie
Nothing is ever said, brought up or mentioned.

Again I would bet money it was mentioned.
Originally Posted by smilie
Also I am finding that it is mainly women that exhibit this type of behavior - is this correct?

Oh boy Smile I think you are really going to regret saying that lol.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
smilie, again, she took vows: for better or worse, in sickness and health, til death do us part.


It amazes me that that people actually believe that a statement made often in your early 20s is going to supersede millions of years of evolution.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SteveLW
smilie, again, she took vows: for better or worse, in sickness and health, til death do us part.


It amazes me that that people actually believe that a statement made often in your early 20s is going to supersede millions of years of evolution.


LH I think more the point is vows were made therefore commitment was promised and reliable trustworthy people keep their promises. Evolution means eff all if we use our higher selves. We have these big beautiful brains for a reason. All humans are capable of using their mind to over come instinct. Including but not limited to monogamy in perpetuity. If this weren't so we might as well all being living in caves again. similie's W also wasn't some naïve girl who was barely more than a child when she walked down the aisle. I have about a million thoughts on why this marriage didn't/isn't working. The archaic nature of matrimony isn't one of them.


Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by smilie
Also I am finding that it is mainly women that exhibit this type of behavior - is this correct?

Oh boy Smilie I think you are really going to regret saying that lol.
I'll be nice he's new around here. Buddy no. No this is not something mainly women exhibit. Literally anyone can coast along in stagnant and painful MR and do what the LBS feels like is up and leaving. But as a lot of people told you it's far more common in women for things to get to this point like this. Because they say what they want and need over and over again on deaf ears and then give up. I was a WW in my first marriage. exH was crappy person there wasn't much going to fix that unless he could see that himself. But I asked him for bare, bare minimum things to keep me all in. To make me feel like I wasn't having to choose between the lesser of two evil. Him with a roof over my head or no him with no roof over the head of myself or our daughter. He never heard me. You know when he heard me? Not when I cheated. Not when he begged me not to leave him for AP, even though that was never the plan. Not when I gave up and finally left. Not when I started dating again. Nope. Not even when things started to get sort of serious with my now H and I told my exH speak now or forever hold your piece because this is the absolute end of the train. He finally heard me about 2 months after my current H and I signed a lease and moved in together. I had stopped asking him for what I wanted and needed more than 3.5 years before that.

My current H actually didn't say anything before the A and BD. But I could tell he was struggling with himself and me and our MR for about a year before the A and BD. I had asked him repeatedly what was going on. I begged him to tell me what was going on. I begged to go to counseling or a M retreat. Something anything. He would say he was tired or stressed, and then he'd put on a happy face and act like nothing had happened. My depression took a huge toll on him and our MR. My independence took a toll because he liked feeling needed. His inability to deal with negative emotions or communicate effectively was crushing us, but at the time he saw that as my fault.

If I wasn't negative he'd be happy. If I would just stop expecting things of him he would be happy. If I would be less intelligent he wouldn't feel bad about himself. If I would, I would, I would. And trust me I needed to change a lot of things first and foremost getting mentally healthy and physically healthier. But until we got into some knock down drag out fights during the A (because he never wanted to fight, because at the time he felt fighting makes him feel the not happy feelings) he hadn't realized that I was never meeting his expectations because they were either unspoken or unreasonable. And that he was never meeting my expectations because he was either ignoring the request entirely or thought I was asking too much when I was asking for the bare minimum because he didn't want to give it to me out of resentment. And when he'd act like a petulant child I would just take on more and more and more responsibility in the household, in the MR, in parenting at work. Whatever I needed to do to get what I needed whether it was making meals, hauling the kids or more money for the house. Which I then resented him for. And being stretched thing drove me into a deeper depression. Which then made him resent me even more. Until we were in a resentment spiral that was sukking our M down the drain.

I say all this because I've read through a ton of what you said. And I'm going to be honest. There are a lot of MRs that have a disabled partner. A lot where that partner was a huge contributor in the household and then became homebound for the most part. A lot of those MRs work. I think your relationship falling apart has a lot less to to do with a changed dynamic than you think it does. If this isn't what W signed up for she wouldn't bowed out a while ago. 7 years is a long time to hang on to a MR out of pity. I doubt W is perfect and you're a disaster. She clearly has issues of her own. But if I had to guess what your biggest part in the demise of this MR was it's your depression. Dude, you are very clearly depressed. And not because of the BD and W. I can see it in every line. Whether you save this MR or not, you really need to be worrying about how to heal you. And I really think you should discuss depression with your doctors and a psychologist.

Which brings me to my last point that everyone is trying to tell you. Trying to mindread why your WAW walked is a waste of time and energy. We all do it. I get it. So you will be hearing this a lot. Like a lot, a lot. But you really do need to focus on you right now. The L thing is great. Reading some old threads to feel like you're getting some kind of handle on what's happening here. Also good. But I really need you to do some serious assessing and let's fix things that are fixable. Depression even chronic depression is treatable. But you can't get to those fitness goals of yours if you're not mentally healthy enough to even start. Worry about you first and foremost.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 02:32 PM
Wayfarer I look forward to your posts everyday. Thank you for being nice to Smiles.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
LH I think more the point is vows were made therefore commitment was promised and reliable trustworthy people keep their promises.

I would argue that most WS are not trustworthy.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Evolution means eff all if we use our higher selves. We have these big beautiful brains for a reason.

Yes but most decisions in these sitches are made on emotion. Not logic and reason from our big beautiful brains.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
If this weren't so we might as well all being living in caves again.

My point is our brains don't know we are not living in caves.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
similie's W also wasn't some naïve girl who was barely more than a child when she walked down the aisle.

My comment was about marriages in general but in this situation when she made those vows she had no idea what it would be like living with a man who was ill and hadn't worked for seven years. Again, not his fault but you see my point.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I have about a million thoughts on why this marriage didn't/isn't working.

As do I.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
The archaic nature of matrimony isn't one of them.

I see we agree that it is archaic.
Posted By: JosephS Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:02 PM
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. LH, you don’t believe adults should be held responsible or accountable for promises they made to remain committed because they were young adults? And you believe marriage is archaic?
Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by JosephS
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. LH, you don’t believe adults should be held responsible or accountable for promises they made to remain committed because they were young adults? And you believe marriage is archaic?


I think the point LH is trying to make ( and i'm sure he will reply soon ) is that the average 22 year old person is rarely the same person they are 20 years later.

I am a totally different person to the person i was when i was 20. People change, as do priorities, and in some cases that persons values.

Posted By: MrBrside Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by JosephS
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. LH, you don’t believe adults should be held responsible or accountable for promises they made to remain committed because they were young adults? And you believe marriage is archaic?


and when it comes to accountabilty - well Joseph, you know the drill as well, if not better than most here..

Emotion kick in, rational goes out of the window and you no longer recognise the person you loved - and in their mind, who's fault is it - the LBS!

Cheaters rewrite history to escape accountability for their actions !

Its rare that a LBS comes here and posts about how their WW have accepted responsibility for the car crash they caused.

Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Originally Posted by JosephS
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. LH, you don’t believe adults should be held responsible or accountable for promises they made to remain committed because they were young adults? And you believe marriage is archaic?


I think the point LH is trying to make ( and i'm sure he will reply soon ) is that the average 22 year old person is rarely the same person they are 20 years later.

I am a totally different person to the person i was when i was 20. People change, as do priorities, and in some cases that persons values.


Bingo! Thanks Bside.

When the institution of marriage began people were lucky to live until they were 30.

Now we are living until 80-90. Being in close quarters with the same person for 60-70 years is very difficult.

Either something needs to change or people need to be more informed what this "promise" really consists of for the next 60 years. Of course this is only my opinion.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I would argue that most WS are not trustworthy.
Ageed, but that isn't what Steve was saying with the vows. Nor was that the purpose of my argument. WAW promised for better or worse, sickness and health. smilie shouldn't bear the burden of a broken promise as his fault. She might be in a situation now that she didn't sign up for. And there can be understanding there. But commitments are meant to be upheld. That failure is on WAW not smilie.

Originally Posted by LH19
Yes but most decisions in these sitches are made on emotion. Not logic and reason from our big beautiful brains.
Fair enough, but still not my point. I'm well aware that in crisis we're all functioning on instinct. But a decision to break one's vows is far more calculated than instinctual. The running after and the fighting and everything else all instinctual. I'd maybe agree with you fully if I could tell if this WAW is in an MLC but given that this has happened before I think we're safe to say she isn't just running to run.

Originally Posted by LH19
My comment was about marriages in general but in this situation when she made those vows she had no idea what it would be like living with a man who was ill and hadn't worked for seven years. Again, not his fault but you see my point.
Also agreed. But also not my point. You said barely older than 20. WAW here was not a 22 yo making promises she had no ability of knowing whether she could keep them or not. She was a little beyond the fairy tale age when she walked down the aisle. So once again the onus isn't on smilie. That was my point.

Originally Posted by LH19
I see we agree that it is archaic.
To a point. My fundamentally feminist take on life doesn't allow me to not see marriage in it's full historical context. However, because I am who I am I also still believe in love and a forever kind of love. I always have. And no matter how many times I get burned I probably always will. It's a fundamental flaw of mine. Also until the legal system finds a better way to recognize partners at the end of one's life I'm still a pretty big advocate of it. I worked in probate for a while so I know how ugly things can get when that lovely little binding contract of marriage isn't done.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:30 PM
Wayfarer offered some insightful words.

Originally Posted by smile
And this is so sad, isn't it? .

Yes and no! Yes, you’ve lost a partner you “need” and that will make life harder in the short run. No, long-term I suspect you will discover beyond the monthly check you don’t “need” her to survive or be happy. You cited her as an “obstacle” to starting your own business and now that obstacle is removed. Smiles, this could be an empowering year.

I agree with wayfarer to start with therapy. Find coaches in other areas, too!

As to fitness, my trainers find ways to make me sweat whether I have a cold, a stress fracture, or an impingement. To be clear, I’m not rich—I’m paying $70/month for 5x/week group training. Many gyms and PTs offer a free first training session where you can outline your limits and learn possible workarounds. Physical therapists specialize in working around disabilities and can be seen for 2-4 sessions with or without insurance. With constant and/or unexpected vertigo maybe, e.g., they’d recommend weight machines over free weights so a sudden loss of coordination wouldn’t hurt you. Maybe instead of a M, W, F schedule they’d have you train on whatever good days you have even if it’s only 90 out of 365 days. That’s probably still more training than the average middle-aged adult.

Originally Posted by smiles
There aren't any support groups, except a couple online which I gave up on as it was all about people wanting to take pills and I couldn't stare at a computer screen all the time because of my eyes.

That sounds like an excuse—eye fatigue as a reason not to engage on a forum about your illness, given you are able to engage on this forum to find ways to bust your divorce. It wouldn’t take too many words. “Hi forum! Does my illness mean it’s impossible for me to ever exercise? Has anyone here exercised after their diagnosis?” That may sound insensitive. I have an XGF with a neurological disease. I get both living an illness and being a caregiver are hard. Just getting through a day may take more effort than my normal day plus 2.5hr fitness routine plus chores. You may have to choose strategically one of your 180s instead of three. Breakups suck. I’m glad you keep posting! I do believe in you, though!
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
[ However, because I am who I am I also still believe in love and a forever kind of love. I always have. And no matter how many times I get burned I probably always will. It's a fundamental flaw of mine.

I do too. Although due to my experiences I feel that this kind of love is only meant for my children.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Originally Posted by JosephS
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. LH, you don’t believe adults should be held responsible or accountable for promises they made to remain committed because they were young adults? And you believe marriage is archaic?


I think the point LH is trying to make ( and i'm sure he will reply soon ) is that the average 22 year old person is rarely the same person they are 20 years later.

I am a totally different person to the person i was when i was 20. People change, as do priorities, and in some cases that persons values.



That I agree with. I advocate people NOT marry until late 20s at earliest as today's generation are much less mature than in decades past. However, based on smilie's signature info, his wife was a GROWN-BUTT-WOMAN when she committed to their MR. So this early 20s argument is ignorant in this context.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
That I agree with. I advocate people NOT marry until late 20s at earliest as today's generation are much less mature than in decades past.

So Steve in your mind what decade was the generation very mature? 60s, 70s?

Originally Posted by SteveLW
However, based on smilie's signature info, his wife was a GROWN-BUTT-WOMAN when she committed to their MR. So this early 20s argument is ignorant in this context.

My point with him is that is easy to say in sickness and in health until you are the only one working for seven years. Again, not his fault that he got sick. Not excuses his W.

Point is it is MY opinion in the future marriages will be more like contracts and will be renegotiated every 5-7 years.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

When the institution of marriage began people were lucky to live until they were 30.

Now we are living until 80-90. Being in close quarters with the same person for 60-70 years is very difficult.



This has more to do with the evolution of the institution of marriage rather than life expectancy. Look at how many people get divorced young and within 5 years of marriage even when they have kids together. Marriage has evolved to be more of a social and more importantly legal contract. Yes, our hormones play tricks on us to make us believe in soulmates and true love but over time, the reality surfaces. In older days, people stuck together because it was harder to get divorced. Men and women often had distinct roles and it was hard for one to take over the responsibilities of the other. Today, that is no longer a barrier with women working and men being able to take care of the house and kids. There was also stigma attached to getting divorced which is no longer the case.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
WAW promised for better or worse, sickness and health. smilie shouldn't bear the burden of a broken promise as his fault.


The person breaking a promise rarely bears the burden at least in the short term. If they had to bear the burden, they would likely not break the promise. It is usually the other person that is impacted

And speaking of promises and vows, do they really mean anything anymore other than personal convictions? 50% of marriages end in divorce. A large percentage of the ones that don't end in D, involve breaking vows in some form of the other such as EA/PA or even thinking about an EA/PA. What % of couples can truly say they never broke *any* of their marriage vows? I wonder if we can say with confidence that marriage vows are more meaningful than 'pinky promises' made by kids? smile

Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 05:38 PM
First off, may I thank you for all of your replies and the time you have taken to respond. It means more that you will ever know at this point in my life. Again, thank you.

I would like to stress, seriously stress, that my wife didn't give any clues, any complaints or any comments that she wasn't happy. This is difficult to get across, but if she had of done, then I would have sat down with her straight away to discuss such things. There was nothing, honestly, absolutely nothing. I didn't miss the clues, I didn't miss any comments and there was absolutely no nagging - there wasn't the previous time either. There was no mention that she wasn't happy or that I was doing somethings wrong, there was no moaning, she doesn't do that. Like her mother, she is silent in such things. She and I were even discussing what we were going to do this year and we just spent a load of money for the garden and planting vegetables, which I grew from seed, for us to save money on our organic veg order.

3 weeks later, she was gone and the first thing I noticed was 5 days prior, when the kiss she gave me when leaving for work didn't feel right. That week I noticed a lot. I asked is we were ok - "yes", she said. She let it slip that she had booked a week off work and when I said I didn't know that she had and she didn't mention it, she replied "I told you ages ago" - she didn't. She didn't mention it the week prior either, otherwise I would have suggested going away for a break. And I did when I found out - "I don't know what I'm doing yet", she replied. Another lie and a comment she would never have made before. On the Friday I asked if she was going to run again, "No", she said. I asked again, "No, I'm not". "Really?", I calmly asked. Then this is when she said that she was going to stay with her sister for a couple of days, to think. This was obviously a lie, as her sister has not got ANY space in her house and she didn't want to 'think'. This was just an excuse to get out of the house and walk in to the life she had previously prepared. She took no clothes or belongings, except her hairdryer, hair straighteners, the shoes on her feet and the clothes on her back, a small overnight bag to give the impression she was going for a short while (that probably contained the important documents she took) and her laptop. That was it.

This was the first I heard and that 's because I noticed that week. Prior to that everything was fine. Sharing a bed, sharing a life, holding hands indoors and out. No sex though for weeks. Planning for the future, laughing, joking (she said that's what she likes about me, I always make her laugh), talking about loads of stuff. She mentioned nothing. Honestly. I would have known.

As far as asking if it was women that mainly exhibited this trait, I didn't mean anything by it and certainly wasn't being sexist - please forgive if I offended. It's just that from what I have read, the stories and examples seem to be more angled to women. There are a few examples of men doing similar things, I agree, but it's termed WAW, not WAH, so I was just curious.

One things that I have found is "Spousal Abandonment Syndrome", where there is no indication AT ALL, that the S is going to leave and there is usually another person involved. This seems to go in line with my experience more than WAW, in as much as the way that she left, but then the rest fits into WAW fairly snuggly.

Let's talk about depression. Please be assured that over the past 10-11 years I have not been depressed at all, seriously, I haven't. Having been depressed before, which ground me down big time, I can quite categorically say that I haven't been depressed for a fair number of years. I am however, fed up with this illness and it limitations, but I am cheerful most of the time, speak to people easy, go out and mix quite readily, etc. I am happy when my wife comes home from work, {when she used to come home from work} like to hear about her day when she came home and paid her attention - maybe not enough romantic attention granted - but a hug from behind when she was doing something and a kiss on the neck, was always accepted and reacted to positively, even up to a few days before she left. An Act?

Since she has left I have had a hell of a time with high levels of anxiety. This is what you are reading I would assume. Yes, I am sad, really sad. I cannot understand (and never will probably), how this has once again happened with ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION that there was any issue whatsoever (please believe me on this, once again, there truly wasn't).

Today I have been to see a doctor and yes he has put me on anxiety medication (that I didn't want to go on) as I cannot keep shaking in this way, not sleeping and losing this much weight this quickly. My skin has now gone saggy and dry due to the stress and amount of weight I continue to lose. I dropped half a stone the week following my wife leaving and now I have lost over a stone within 4 weeks. I look like an old person and none of my clothes fit me anymore. Furthermore, I do not have the money to buy new ones.

As far as trying to apply logic and make sense of things, yes I continue to be guilty of this. I cannot stop my brain trying to work things out, but understand that I must. I need to get myself into a mental and physical position where I can cope with this and build myself back to where I was 5 short weeks ago. I was working out, sort of, regularly, picking up martial arts again and planning out a business idea, just days before my wife walked out. I was confident and strong and now, since she is gone, I am emotionally and physically weak and my self-esteem has been shot to pieces.

She is coming round in a little over 2 weeks to collect her belongings and I need to get myself sorted as best I can by then. A big task. I shall never be able to put the weight back on by then, but I hope that I'll be able to sort out my psychology, even if I go to bits after she's left - which I probably will.

I've been out today as I couldn't face being in the house. It was the first day that I've had where I have not had to do anything urgent, or phone anybody, or have an online meeting with my lawyer. It is also the day after my lawyer sent her lawyer a letter requesting her intentions, sharing my intentions and requesting monies that were taken without agreement, to be replaced. I have been dreading this and the response that will inevitably follow. I am expecting that she is up for a divorce, just like she said she was a little over 2 weeks ago. I have heard nothing fro her in that time, despite her telling me to expect a letter from her lawyer. I spent the morning and half the afternoon in the park, went to the doctors and then the pub. I took my reading material - DR - to catch-up on the low-down and re-familiarize myself with MWD's material. All seems to be based on MR's where people haven't split, with some examples and comment of those that have. This has been my study today and I am wondering if it's all a little too late.

Please understand that it was vital that this lawyer's letter was sent and shared, as the rent on this house and my living conditions are linked to her intentions. Seeing as she is paying the rent, she has told me that she will pay it until August, however, because she hasn't started proceedings and they take time, it is apparently an unreasonable timescale and needs negotiation.

I also promised her that I would give her what she wants - Divorce - so communicated that I would honour that, without taking action on it, just asking her agreement. So the ball is in her court and I would expect that she will come back and agree that I initiate a divorce - not something that I have ever wanted, but something that I will have to do if she says that is what she wants. This will need to be done because of the property rent as the length of time that this will be paid for will be determined on the length of time proceedings take. I believe that things should be talked about and resolved, not just thrown away in the heat of the moment and without communicated due cause. But what other choice do I have, as I will have to move out of this rented accommodation and then she can never come back? This is why we have asked her intention.

I appreciate all of your input, I really so, I am a mere beginner in this and I never expected a past situation to re-occur, especially her admitting to OP and having committed adultery - a big, big shock! But she does have a trait of having affairs I suppose, as she had one with me. I should have seen it then but didn't recognise or even think that she would do the same to me a few years down the line. I did wait 8 years before I agreed to get married, to make sure we were ok and it was exactly one year after that that all this began - on out first year anniverssary. Prior to that everything was good, our sex life was great and then after we were married, it slowed significantly. It tookk 3 days to comsumate the marriage. She has never refused sex, but she seemed to prefer to read her book (kindle) in bed than to pay attention to us - this is something that I mentioned at counselling 9 years ago. When she doesn't pick up her kindle as soon as she gets in bed and wants a 'cuddle' I know that she wanted sex. This is the only time she comes for a cuddle and it always has to end in sex. Why can we just cuddle and chat and fall asleep like we used to?

So that's me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:03 PM
Smilie,

I am sorry you are struggling right now. Right now you are in the thick of it and I am sure when the dust settles you will start to see the signs. My EXW NEVER claimed she was unhappy or asked to go to MC. But looking back now I could see she was unhappy. Snapping at the kids a lot. Typically in a bad mood. She felt caged like an animal with no way out.

Regardless, you need to take the focus off her and put the focus on your health first. Take it hour by hour or minute by minute.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
And speaking of promises and vows, do they really mean anything anymore other than personal convictions? 50% of marriages end in divorce. A large percentage of the ones that don't end in D, involve breaking vows in some form of the other such as EA/PA or even thinking about an EA/PA. What % of couples can truly say they never broke *any* of their marriage vows? I wonder if we can say with confidence that marriage vows are more meaningful than 'pinky promises' made by kids? smile

Spit my coffee (pinky promises) but to your point you are absolutely correct and would argue this has been going on for centuries.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Wayfarer offered some insightful words.

You cited her as an “obstacle” to starting your own business and now that obstacle is removed. Smiles, this could be an empowering year.

I agree with this and have thought the same. I am trying to focus to get this started. It involves coding and it's really difficult to concentrate on it feeling this way. Hopefully the tablets will help when they kick in. Meanwhile, I shall put an hour in each day and make a start.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I agree with wayfarer to start with therapy. Find coaches in other areas, too!

Due to having no money at hand, I have registered with the state run systems. CBT they have suggested (not convinced) and there is an 8 week waiting list. It's been 3 weeks, so 5 weeks left. No appointment yet. I have been thinking about a relationship counselling charity here, that help people come to terms with separation. They should have flexible pricing models so it will be affordable. Other than that, what type of counselling/coaching would anybody recommend I look for?

Originally Posted by CWarrior
As to fitness, my trainers find ways to make me sweat whether I have a cold, a stress fracture, or an impingement. To be clear, I’m not rich—I’m paying $70/month for 5x/week group training. Many gyms and PTs offer a free first training session where you can outline your limits and learn possible workarounds. Physical therapists specialize in working around disabilities and can be seen for 2-4 sessions with or without insurance. With constant and/or unexpected vertigo maybe, e.g., they’d recommend weight machines over free weights so a sudden loss of coordination wouldn’t hurt you. Maybe instead of a M, W, F schedule they’d have you train on whatever good days you have even if it’s only 90 out of 365 days. That’s probably still more training than the average middle-aged adult.

I used to do bodybuilding when I was younger and am familiar with the gym exercises I can do. I am able to use free weights. I can push myself without issue and I have a small gym here at home. The only difference is I don't get to "mingle". I used to be a member of the only gym here in town, and it's a awful one. Nothing is maintained and it it really pokey and dirty. It's only a small town where I live and facilities are almost non-existent, which is a shame.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by smiles
There aren't any support groups, except a couple online which I gave up on as it was all about people wanting to take pills and I couldn't stare at a computer screen all the time because of my eyes.

That sounds like an excuse—eye fatigue as a reason not to engage on a forum about your illness, given you are able to engage on this forum to find ways to bust your divorce. It wouldn’t take too many words. “Hi forum! Does my illness mean it’s impossible for me to ever exercise? Has anyone here exercised after their diagnosis?” That may sound insensitive. I have an XGF with a neurological disease. I get both living an illness and being a caregiver are hard. Just getting through a day may take more effort than my normal day plus 2.5hr fitness routine plus chores. You may have to choose strategically one of your 180s instead of three. Breakups suck. I’m glad you keep posting! I do believe in you, though!

It's not an excuse, honestly, even though it may sound like one. Putting on a pair of reading glasses in order to use the computer, make me spin almost instantly. Eye fatigue does follow, but is not the main issue, dizziness is. This condition is made worse/triggered by visual stimulation and head movement (nothing to do with balance either), as head movement changes the way your eyes see things and therefore triggers a neurological response.

Hard exercise takes the 'edge' off my symptoms I found, as does polishing the car, until I go to bed and wake up the next day. I have worked out for years with this illness in my home gym. Yes it take a huge amount of effort and I am completely knackered afterwards and really tired throughout, but I do it. So I've picked that up again daily.

Vestibular migraine forums that are available have never been productive to me. There is never any suggestions and people just want to take medication that never works. They moan and complain and spend all day in bed. I'm solutions focused and have been looking for and trying different things up until my wife left, including iodine, Vitamin C, Tryptohan, water fasting, organic diet, plant-based diets, foods that I may be allergic to (after a hair test), physio specifically for deep neck flexors, physio for migraine (Watson Approach), private blood tests, Limbic system retraining, etc. Whilst people on the groups couldn't be bothered to try anything apart from wait for a magic pill. I am still looking for answers and have for 7 entire years, with the help of my wife. I even have the idea of starting a solutions-focused group for VM. I spoke about this at length with my wife a couple of months back and she agreed it was a good idea because there isn't anything like it - something else to do as my 180!

I've tried all I can think of over the past 7 years and I will not stop until I find a solution. Look online at the medical information for Vestibular Migraine and they say that there is no cure, just options to manage it. These options only work for the minority of people and not me. My thought is that this condition is misdiagnosed and I have been told as much by the medical professional in the ENT clinic who tested me. He told me that if they can't find anything wrong with my balance system, they just put you in the "Vestibular Migraine" bin. I think it's more. I think it's brain trauma caused by an event - in my case a violent vertigo attack that lasted weeks. Furthermore it was discovered that I have an pituitary tumour and it's not known if that has a bearing, or a cause, to VM. The medical industry do not care and will not even attempt to link the two. I have an appointment each year with the endocrine clinic and when I tell them I still have all my symptoms, nothing has got better and nothing has got worse and is there anything that can be done, the response I get it "See you next year". This pituitary tumour effects my sex drive and that is recognised, as does the feelings of being knackered and dizzy almost all of the time.

My point is this: Being on this forum is important to me, really important and believe you me, because I have worn my glasses for an hour or so in order to read and reply, my head feels like jelly and awful. Yes, my eyes are also blurry and will remain so for many many weeks. It is an effort and it triggers dizziness. So please be assured that it is certainly not an excuse. It's something that not a lot of people understand unless you have got it, or have lived with somebody who has.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:15 PM
This!!
Originally Posted by LH19
Smilie, Regardless, you need to take the focus off her and put the focus on your health first. Take it hour by hour or minute by minute.


It's good you've addressed the anxiety over this. I know you didn't want the meds but it helps I promise. It helps with sleep, with eating. With surviving.

I lost 60lbs because of my stich. I needed to lose weight my depression and find meds that worked packed pounds on my body. But I didn't need to lose so much so fast. I lost it so quickly my hair was falling out. About 20 lbs rebounded back on my body almost immediately once I started eating real meals again because I lost the weight too fast. How about we focus on your nutrition next.. On my worst days I lived on meal replacement shakes and water. Liquid was the only thing I could keep in. What are kind of food you can handle right now?

Now as to sleep. I'm guessing you're not sleeping. What are ways you're helping yourself find sleep? I have tons and tons of suggestions for this if you need them.

You will be amazed at how much less chaotic you feel once you've gotten some solid sleep and some calories in you.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:20 PM
Smilie,
One advice I would give you is to look forward and not second guess things in the past. It does not matter whether she did not give you signs in the past, it does not matter whether she did give signs and you missed them, it does not matter if there were things you could have done better to prevent this from happening. Most LBS dwell on what could have been done but it is usually not productive.

Look forward from where you are today. Focus on the present and focus on what you can control. Be confident that whatever happens, you will come out of this better and stronger.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
My comment was about marriages in general but in this situation when she made those vows she had no idea what it would be like living with a man who was ill and hadn't worked for seven years. Again, not his fault but you see my point.
Also agreed. But also not my point. You said barely older than 20. WAW here was not a 22 yo making promises she had no ability of knowing whether she could keep them or not. She was a little beyond the fairy tale age when she walked down the aisle. So once again the onus isn't on smilie. That was my point.

I would also like to add here, that after one year of us being together, she woke up yellow - jaundis. She was diagnosed with Autoimmune Hepatitis and she spnt 2 weeks in hospital and needed to go on steroids which made her gain weight and then an immunosuppressant. She was in tears worrying that I would dump her and not love her anymore because her body blew up and she gained weight in a few weeks (she had a tiny frame prior to that). For 7.5 years I stood by, not once thinking I didn't want to be with her - liver biopsies, bone scans and a termination due to the specialist telling her not to get pregnant as they didn't know if the baby would be affected or if my wife life would be at risk. She culdn't take the pill because of the liver issue and we used protection, but one still got through! Never any counselling and it has affected us to this day. She has never been able to get pregnant since - we have tried, but not that hard as she is more focused on career and never really said that she really wanted a child. Through all this, I loved her - I love her (still do really). This was years before we were married. I didn't need a vow to be faithful as it's in my values as a man. I would never and have never had eyes for anybody else in 19 years. I couldn't do that to anybody as it was done to me in my first ever relationship and I found out how it felt. And now I am finding out all over again.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I am sorry you are struggling right now. Right now you are in the thick of it and I am sure when the dust settles you will start to see the signs. My EXW NEVER claimed she was unhappy or asked to go to MC. But looking back now I could see she was unhappy. Snapping at the kids a lot. Typically in a bad mood. She felt caged like an animal with no way out.

Nope, none of that. We haven't got kids but she never snapped, never argued, never complained. Just gave the impression all was good and rosey. Honestly, there were no signs. I know people here will find that hard to believe - lord know I do myself - but there was absolutely nothing. She was never sad. We always laughed and joked, made funny comments, sent funny text messages and emails - right up to the week she left.

Originally Posted by LH19
Regardless, you need to take the focus off her and put the focus on your health first. Take it hour by hour or minute by minute.

I agree and that's what I have been doing. One hour at a time. I tend to get extremely anxious when thinking about the day or tomorrow, or next week. But I need to to get my belongings sorted for when I need to move.
Posted By: LH19 Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by smilie
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
My comment was about marriages in general but in this situation when she made those vows she had no idea what it would be like living with a man who was ill and hadn't worked for seven years. Again, not his fault but you see my point.
Also agreed. But also not my point. You said barely older than 20. WAW here was not a 22 yo making promises she had no ability of knowing whether she could keep them or not. She was a little beyond the fairy tale age when she walked down the aisle. So once again the onus isn't on smilie. That was my point.

I would also like to add here, that after one year of us being together, she woke up yellow - jaundis. She was diagnosed with Autoimmune Hepatitis and she spnt 2 weeks in hospital and needed to go on steroids which made her gain weight and then an immunosuppressant. She was in tears worrying that I would dump her and not love her anymore because her body blew up and she gained weight in a few weeks (she had a tiny frame prior to that). For 7.5 years I stood by, not once thinking I didn't want to be with her - liver biopsies, bone scans and a termination due to the specialist telling her not to get pregnant as they didn't know if the baby would be affected or if my wife life would be at risk. She culdn't take the pill because of the liver issue and we used protection, but one still got through! Never any counselling and it has affected us to this day. She has never been able to get pregnant since - we have tried, but not that hard as she is more focused on career and never really said that she really wanted a child. Through all this, I loved her - I love her (still do really). This was years before we were married. I didn't need a vow to be faithful as it's in my values as a man. I would never and have never had eyes for anybody else in 19 years. I couldn't do that to anybody as it was done to me in my first ever relationship and I found out how it felt. And now I am finding out all over again.


Smilie unfortunately they are so many factors in these situations including hormones, brain chemicals, the happiness u-curve that it is hard to rationalize. The one thing I can tell you is that you will survive this and be happy again.
Posted By: smilie Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
It's good you've addressed the anxiety over this. I know you didn't want the meds but it helps I promise. It helps with sleep, with eating. With surviving.

This is my hope. It's annoying though how somebody can literally drive you to drugs!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
What are kind of food you can handle right now?

I try to eat ok: Breakfast: scambled egg or omelette with avocado. Lunch: salad. Dinner: Organic fish/chicken with vegetables and rice. Can't handle big portions, but I force myself to eat them even though I'm not hungry. Basically it the same (or similar) to what I was eating prior to this and I wasn't losing weight then. So this seems to be 100% pure stress.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Now as to sleep. I'm guessing you're not sleeping. What are ways you're helping yourself find sleep? I have tons and tons of suggestions for this if you need them.

Sleep is the worst! Getting about 3 hours broken sleep - 15 mins at a time. Which is 2 hours 15 more than I was getting the first 2 weeks. I listen to meditation audios with my ipod in my ears, which helps a bit. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
You will be amazed at how much less chaotic you feel once you've gotten some solid sleep and some calories in you.

I live in hope! I'm certainly knackered! That's probably the weight loss
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Smilie,
One advice I would give you is to look forward and not second guess things in the past. It does not matter whether she did not give you signs in the past, it does not matter whether she did give signs and you missed them, it does not matter if there were things you could have done better to prevent this from happening. Most LBS dwell on what could have been done but it is usually not productive.

Look forward from where you are today. Focus on the present and focus on what you can control. Be confident that whatever happens, you will come out of this better and stronger.


This.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by LH19

When the institution of marriage began people were lucky to live until they were 30.

Now we are living until 80-90. Being in close quarters with the same person for 60-70 years is very difficult.



This has more to do with the evolution of the institution of marriage rather than life expectancy. Look at how many people get divorced young and within 5 years of marriage even when they have kids together. Marriage has evolved to be more of a social and more importantly legal contract. Yes, our hormones play tricks on us to make us believe in soulmates and true love but over time, the reality surfaces. In older days, people stuck together because it was harder to get divorced. Men and women often had distinct roles and it was hard for one to take over the responsibilities of the other. Today, that is no longer a barrier with women working and men being able to take care of the house and kids. There was also stigma attached to getting divorced which is no longer the case.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
WAW promised for better or worse, sickness and health. smilie shouldn't bear the burden of a broken promise as his fault.


The person breaking a promise rarely bears the burden at least in the short term. If they had to bear the burden, they would likely not break the promise. It is usually the other person that is impacted

And speaking of promises and vows, do they really mean anything anymore other than personal convictions? 50% of marriages end in divorce. A large percentage of the ones that don't end in D, involve breaking vows in some form of the other such as EA/PA or even thinking about an EA/PA. What % of couples can truly say they never broke *any* of their marriage vows? I wonder if we can say with confidence that marriage vows are more meaningful than 'pinky promises' made by kids? smile



Yep marriage has been cheapened by many things, some of it intentional, over the years. Especially in the last 50 years. I've always maintained that marriage is way too eat to get into, and eat too easy to get out of. We have turned it into pinky swears as a society. It really is a sad commentary especially considering many consider it "progress".

And to quote Forest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:07 PM
Oohhh boy this is my favorite newbie advice to give. I'm a horrible sleeper in general even in times of calm. So when the EA started before H was willing to admit it I had already stopped sleeping. Once I kicked him out of the bed I was sleeping maybe 3 hours broken like you. So the meditation audio is great. But it's just one piece of a bunch. One of the biggest things is our brains crave predictability. Even more so in times of stress so you need a bed time and a bed time routine. Let's say you pick a 10:30pm bed time you have to be in bed and done with your routine by that time every night. The routine I strongly recommend is a warm shower with a lavender soap about an hour before bed. There are lavender soaps out there that aren't so feminine. A good one is Dr. Bronner's. I don't know what the availability is for you where you are. But there are others. It may take some research. After your shower no TV, phone, tablet, kindle what have you. Make a nice cup of tea. But not like a cuppa. A nice herbal tea no caffeine. Chamomile if you don't mind it. I strongly suggest ordering a weighted blanket if you don't have one. I also suggest a diffusor for essential oils. Put it in the bedroom. There are a million sleepy time blends. Just find one that you like. Start that when you make your tea so the room is already filled with the scent when you lay down. You can add in or take out any steps as you like. It's your routine. But definitely stay away from screens at least 30 min before bed and do that routine consistently at the same time every day for a few weeks. I promise sleep with come easier. My last suggestion would be CBD oil in tincture form. High dose. Like 700mg or more. Take that about an hour before bed too.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Oohhh boy this is my favorite newbie advice to give. I'm a horrible sleeper in general even in times of calm. So when the EA started before H was willing to admit it I had already stopped sleeping. Once I kicked him out of the bed I was sleeping maybe 3 hours broken like you. So the meditation audio is great. But it's just one piece of a bunch. One of the biggest things is our brains crave predictability. Even more so in times of stress so you need a bed time and a bed time routine. Let's say you pick a 10:30pm bed time you have to be in bed and done with your routine by that time every night. The routine I strongly recommend is a warm shower with a lavender soap about an hour before bed. There are lavender soaps out there that aren't so feminine. A good one is Dr. Bronner's. I don't know what the availability is for you where you are. But there are others. It may take some research. After your shower no TV, phone, tablet, kindle what have you. Make a nice cup of tea. But not like a cuppa. A nice herbal tea no caffeine. Chamomile if you don't mind it. I strongly suggest ordering a weighted blanket if you don't have one. I also suggest a diffusor for essential oils. Put it in the bedroom. There are a million sleepy time blends. Just find one that you like. Start that when you make your tea so the room is already filled with the scent when you lay down. You can add in or take out any steps as you like. It's your routine. But definitely stay away from screens at least 30 min before bed and do that routine consistently at the same time every day for a few weeks. I promise sleep with come easier. My last suggestion would be CBD oil in tincture form. High dose. Like 700mg or more. Take that about an hour before bed too.


I tried all the natural remedies, including diffused essential oils. The only thing that finally got me sleeping was Benadryl. I would just convince myself my allergies were acting up and take a dose!
Posted By: wayfarer Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:19 PM
Lol I'm on board with benadryl. I'd recommend that too. But I don't know what kind of contraindications he might have with his meds for other stuff. And I was put on like heavy duty sleeping meds when my MR with my first H was falling apart and I do weird stuff. Walk, talk, eyes open and everything. So I never suggest that stuff.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Lol I'm on board with benadryl. I'd recommend that too. But I don't know what kind of contraindications he might have with his meds for other stuff. And I was put on like heavy duty sleeping meds when my MR with my first H was falling apart and I do weird stuff. Walk, talk, eyes open and everything. So I never suggest that stuff.


Oh such a good point! Thanks for reminding me, when I responded I forgot he could on other subscription meds.

Yeah I am with you. Sleeping meds should be avoided if for nothing more than they are habit forming.
Posted By: job Re: She's Gone Again - 10 Years On - 06/24/21 07:40 PM
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