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Posted By: mako WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 04/29/21 03:17 PM
To recap: W said she wanted a D just over 2 months ago, which wasnít a surprise after the past few years. Iíve been here before and knew what to do, took steps to improve myself, and went a long way in finding detachment. Wís attitude didn't change, we agreed to the terms of D, and were probably under a month from being ready to file, I came to acceptance that itís coming. W gets COVID, has a change of heart, and wants to work on the M. As of this post it is going ok but weíre really only around a week into the process so Iím pretty much just going a day at a time, moving slowly.


First thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2915700#Post2915700
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 04:49 PM
Not much happened this weekend. Two of the kids didnít feel that good so we didnít do much. I did some work around the house. W got a negative covid test so she can go back to work (mostly working at home but has to go in once in a while).

W and I have still been getting along fine. I had been taking things quite slowly and was actually wondering if I was going too slow. Then this morning I cuddled with her in bed, which is something I had been doing lately, and she said ďIím not ready for cuddling this makes me uncomfortable.Ē So I said ďThatís ok, you just have to tell me these things.Ē Thereís my answer to whether Iím going to slow or not.

Anyway, I donít really know what to make of all that, but I guess I need to keep taking it slow. She is definitely still treating me better than pre-BD, so she is in a positive place somewhat, but maybe she doesnít really know what she wants. I will perhaps still try the more subtle charges and see how that goes. I also have to remind myself that it took a long time to get here, it will take a long time to get through.

I havenít been doing a lot of GAL lately, but Iím going out tomorrow and probably Thursday so thatís good. I probably need to get back into DBing mode.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by mako
ďIím not ready for cuddling this makes me uncomfortable.Ē So I said ďThatís ok, you just have to tell me these things.Ē Thereís my answer to whether Iím going to slow or not.

You need to 100% let her come to you now.
Originally Posted by mako
But maybe she doesnít really know what she wants.

Yep. She feels better now . Covid scare is over. Now she's not sure again. False starts are common.
Originally Posted by mako
I will perhaps still try the more subtle charges and see how that goes. I also have to remind myself that it took a long time to get here, it will take a long time to get through.
I would give her space.
[quote=mako] I havenít been doing a lot of GAL lately, but Iím going out tomorrow and probably Thursday so thatís good. I probably need to get back into DBing mode.

Yep. GAL like a mad man.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Not much happened this weekend. Two of the kids didnít feel that good so we didnít do much. I did some work around the house. W got a negative covid test so she can go back to work (mostly working at home but has to go in once in a while).

W and I have still been getting along fine. I had been taking things quite slowly and was actually wondering if I was going too slow. Then this morning I cuddled with her in bed, which is something I had been doing lately, and she said ďIím not ready for cuddling this makes me uncomfortable.Ē So I said ďThatís ok, you just have to tell me these things.Ē Thereís my answer to whether Iím going to slow or not.

Anyway, I donít really know what to make of all that, but I guess I need to keep taking it slow. She is definitely still treating me better than pre-BD, so she is in a positive place somewhat, but maybe she doesnít really know what she wants. I will perhaps still try the more subtle charges and see how that goes. I also have to remind myself that it took a long time to get here, it will take a long time to get through.

I havenít been doing a lot of GAL lately, but Iím going out tomorrow and probably Thursday so thatís good. I probably need to get back into DBing mode.


Interesting update. mako, we do get quite a few sitches here where due to some issue (in your case the COVID stuff) the WAS starts to hedge a bit. LBS sees this as a sign that things are improving and goes too far in trying to move things along. Thus you get what happened with the attempt at cuddling.

This is why I suggested talk charges and SUBTLE touch charges. Cuddling with her in bed is not subtle. Think about it, you are both in your bed clothes, and your bodies are very close together. This results in expectations on your part ("maybe this will lead to sex!") and pressure on her part ("uh oh, I've sent him some messages lately suggesting I might stick around, now he is trying this!"). Neither of those two things are in your best interest. Expectations on your end, pressure on her end. That will always set you up for failure.

Whenever a LBS starts thinking "am I taking this too slow" I would argue that you should bring that question to the forum! Why? Because usually the problem is that you are getting impatient with the progress and are tempted to try an jump start it. Really the question is ALWAYS, in sitches like yours, are you taking it slow enough? Think about it, as soon as she starts showing signs that she wasn't running for the exits, you were in the starting block waiting for the gun to go off so you could go full tilt!

WASs are like cats. If you sit quietly and let them come to you, sometimes they will choose to do that. The minute you reach out to them they run the other way. That is what happened here. She took a couple of steps towards you. Instead of sitting still and quiet, you reached out to her. Her reflex was to run the other way.

I would back off of all touching for now. See how things go. In a couple of weeks if she starts to move back then you can go back to the subtle touch charges. Right now she is hypersensitive to any and all touching, so do not exacerbate that.

Go strictly with the talk charges. Make it a goal of once a day, finding a small thing, 30 seconds to a minute, to share with her. Expect no response. In fact, do not even let her respond. If she is in the kitchen pop in and say "Hey, I just hear on the radio that we are expecting a hotter than usual summer. Thought it was interesting." Then walk away. Like I said before, the talk charges did more to reconnect us than touch charges, or overt touching, ever could.
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 07:44 PM
You all are right, I just need to back off physically. I had thought that doing that 180 would be useful but obviously we aren't there yet. Steve, I will go with just the talk charges for now and give that some time, see how things go.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Then this morning I cuddled with her in bed, which is something I had been doing lately, and she said ďIím not ready for cuddling this makes me uncomfortable.Ē
How many times have you been cuddling with her recently? How many of those times were initiated by her?

During this phase, you want her to be pursuing you. You do not initiate. You behave as an attractive male. Get those core behaviors figured out and then live them. Drop beta behavior. You know you are behaving correctly when she desires you.

This is a huge onion you need to peel. There are many layers that need to be removed.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/03/21 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by mako
I will go with just the talk charges for now and give that some time, see how things go.
How many woman do you interact with on a daily bases? How many do you make laugh? How do they feel after the interaction? How many of those women find you attractive? Do you even know how to spot if they are attracted to you?

Just sounds like you are having a hard time with this one. No expectations with the others, just to make them feel good.

Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/05/21 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
How many times have you been cuddling with her recently? How many of those times were initiated by her?

During this phase, you want her to be pursuing you. You do not initiate. You behave as an attractive male. Get those core behaviors figured out and then live them. Drop beta behavior. You know you are behaving correctly when she desires you.

This is a huge onion you need to peel. There are many layers that need to be removed.

***

How many woman do you interact with on a daily bases? How many do you make laugh? How do they feel after the interaction? How many of those women find you attractive? Do you even know how to spot if they are attracted to you?

Just sounds like you are having a hard time with this one. No expectations with the others, just to make them feel good.



It was less than daily, more than every other. Mostly initiated by me. Like I said, to some extent I was trying to walk the line between too much and this being a 180, but I'm just stopping at this point. You are all correct, I need to be attractive and let her pursue me.

***

I'll be honest, I don't feel like I know much about attracting women or recognizing when they find me attractive. In many ways I am socially clueless/oblivious. Also in the past 20 years I was with my W for more than 12 and my first W for more than 5, and I just didn't try with anyone else while with them. There were a few others prior and in between, but still it isn't a skill I have developed very much. Sure, I should have been honing that skill the whole time, at the very least with my Ws, but well, not much I can do about that now...I will say that both were very much attracted to me at various times during the relationships so I must have done something right and had it in me somewhere, as well as the ability to recognize it, so I will just need to figure that out. But probably for the most part that means working more towards the integrated male, anti-Mr. Nice Guy type, as I certainly see some NGS in myself.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/05/21 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by mako
I'll be honest, I don't feel like I know much about attracting women or recognizing when they find me attractive. In many ways I am socially clueless/oblivious.
Looks like a good place for some personal growth. There is an awareness that I have now that I did not have before the end of my marriage.

Quote
Also in the past 20 years I was with my W for more than 12 and my first W for more than 5, and I just didn't try with anyone else while with them.
Of course. You put boundaries up to protect the marriage. We all do. I had to rewire my brain after divorce.

Quote
It isn't a skill I have developed very much. Sure, I should have been honing that skill the whole time, at the very least with my Ws, but well, not much I can do about that now...
The hard part now is gaining experience and honing your skills. Really hard to do after the bomb drop with a spouse that is not working on the marriage. Maintaining but shifting your boundaries is needed.

Quote
I will say that both were very much attracted to me at various times during the relationships so I must have done something right and had it in me somewhere, as well as the ability to recognize it, so I will just need to figure that out. But probably for the most part that means working more towards the integrated male, anti-Mr. Nice Guy type, as I certainly see some NGS in myself.
Reflecting back and determining the attractive traits and dropping the unattractive traits is a good start. You can then start adding new behaviors that are attractive to women in general.

Dig around here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984


Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/05/21 07:48 PM
R2C is always giving homework haha!

I will say what works for me in terms of attracting women is knowing how to carry a smile right behind your lips without smiling. Be confident, prepare, speak clearly, stand tall, learn when to be direct and when to be coy. But there is a lot of info out there so go and get it.

In order to do these things you really aught to arrange some GAL around things that will make you better. Achieve something, build something, do something of value.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/05/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I will say what works for me in terms of attracting women is knowing how to carry a smile right behind your lips without smiling. Be confident, prepare, speak clearly, stand tall, learn when to be direct and when to be coy. But there is a lot of info out there so go and get it.

In order to do these things you really aught to arrange some GAL around things that will make you better. Achieve something, build something, do something of value.


Sounds like Mr OverTheRainbow did his homework!

The key is enjoying the interaction without expectations. No need to focus on the opposite sex. Just enjoy every interaction with everyone. Make it about them. Be genuinely interested in them. Focus on remembering as many important details as you can. Be in the moment. For example, everytime I get coffee, I focus on catching the new servers name. Any future interactions I address them by their name. I try to get them to laugh.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/13/21 07:48 PM
Mako,

How is the piecing coming?
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 12:19 PM
Nothing exciting going on, things are mostly the same in that department. I am kind of impatient but also realize it took a long time to get here and could take a long time to move out of wherever we are. We are still less than one month from W saying she wanted to work on things after all, and she was in quarantine for a week of that so...yeah it doesn't change overnight.

Now W got sick again, pretty badly. Strange so close to having covid. She was curious so she got tested again and was negative. But she's been mostly staying at home and resting.

I have pretty much turned off all physical affection, figuring as discussed above that she needs to start coming to me. She has not. I still feel we are getting along great, far better than the past few years, but that part isn't there yet.

At some point we are going to need to talk more about this. I am feeling more of a want to start MC than I had before and I have been researching who I want to see. I will bring this up again, like I said "at some point" but I don't know when that will be yet.

We went to W's parents' house for Mother's Day, and that was fine. This was the first I've seen them since they found out we were getting a D. They've always treated me well and this was no different.

I got vaccine #2 this week, so that's good. It put me out of commission for a day though.

GALing is kind of tough with a sick spouse and 3 young kids. I am trying to find the balance there. Work is very flexible so sometimes I get out during the day to do things. I've been volunteering around once every two weeks so that's something. I learned a chess club I want to join is starting up again in person in a couple weeks, so that's nice. If that works out that's another day per week planned to get out of the house. I'm an introvert and don't have a ton of social needs so if I can get out a couple times a week that's sufficient. I'm doing well with working out too, I've lost something like 20-30 pounds and weigh what I did in high school, and am probably stronger than I've been since then too.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Nothing exciting going on, things are mostly the same in that department. I am kind of impatient but also realize it took a long time to get here and could take a long time to move out of wherever we are.

I bought into this BS type of thinking early on. It all comes down to does she desire to do the work. If she does you will be fine. If she doesn't you will certainly get bombed again. Ill post below what I posted to you awhile back.
Originally Posted by mako
I have pretty much turned off all physical affection, figuring as discussed above that she needs to start coming to me. She has not. I still feel we are getting along great, far better than the past few years, but that part isn't there yet.

Look at the first & second sentence. The third sentence don't me jack $hit.
Originally Posted by mako
At some point we are going to need to talk more about this.

So Mako I told you before I had a year and a half false recon. I too believed in time she would work her way back to me. The problem is she had no incentive to do so because I didn't require things like MC, IC etc. Eventually she found OM2 and the rest is history. I wish I would have had the b@lls to say "you are either all in or your out".

If she's already tried dating sites chances are these are her issues that she doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and she doesn't believe in her heart that she can navigate back to "happy" with you.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

So you have to question number 1 because she was going to D you. She didn't really get to find out about number 2. It doesn't look like number 3 is there right now.

I am not saying to give up. What I am saying is don't make the mistakes that myself and countless others have made.

Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 01:42 PM
mako, thanks for the update. All I can tell you is that to DB you have to have patience. Patience, patience, patience. And when you run out of patience, more patience!

This is why I am such an advocate of an end date. Set it out in the future. "On such and such date if she isn't recommitted fully back to the MR, I will go file." It gives you an end game, something to look forward to. Limbo is one of the worst things a human can go through! No one likes it, not even the WAS. But limbo is also, as Cadet says, the gift of time. So doing things that can help you remain patient can help...like setting a drop-dead date.

I am not a big fan of starting R talks, period. The reason I do not advocate R talks is because when forced to make a decision, a WAS will almost always default to their original announcement that they want a D. Even the ones that were having second thoughts or considering recommitting to the MR. Also, it is nearly impossible for a LBS to start an R talk without expectations. Expectation will kill you. "She has been being nice. We have been getting along. I think I can nudge things along by suggesting MC!" Uh, probably not. As you found with the physical affection, she just isn't there yet.

The next question we always get from LBSs is "When will I know?" The answer always is the same: You will have no doubt. It will be abundantly clear that she is ready to recommit to the marriage. In fact, we also had a saying around here that I haven't seen in a while: When she is ready to recommit to the MR you will know, when she isn't you will be confused. I see a confused Mako in this latest update. So that is your answer.

So my advice? Do not start an R talk. Set a drop-dead date where you will be able to move forward with your life, without her. Make it a date you can live with. If that is a year from BD, so be it. If it is 2, so be it. Whatever you are comfortable with. My only advice is to make it far enough that you can move forward and file for D without regrets, but not so far out that you do not get the benefit of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. For example, next week is probably too early. But waiting until D4 is 18 is too far! Be realistic.

In the meantime, just keep doing what you are doing. Once she is well again jump on the GAL like there is no tomorrow. Keep self-improving (including IC!!!). And continue to work on detachment.

Mako, you've got this!
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 02:05 PM
So Steve just to clarify you are advising to go along with no suggestion of IC or MC and then at some point to just drop the D papers on her if nothing has changed?
Posted By: Thornton Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 02:44 PM
Agree with LH.

I had 3 false recons after periods of physical separation, including an out of state move by my ex.

She would come back into my life after months of NC and tell me all the wonderful things she accomplished in therapy, books she read, epiphanies she had etc. I would fall for it, and then not follow up with holding her accountable for not continuing MC or IC.

We would get back together and find our dysfunctional equilibrium after the honeymoon period wore off and she would take off again.

Don't do what I did, and don't be afraid to let her go if she isn't expressing and committing to a continual desire to work on the relationship.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So Steve just to clarify you are advising to go along with no suggestion of IC or MC and then at some point to just drop the D papers on her if nothing has changed?


Action, not words.

(And no, I am not advocating MC UNTIL she makes it clear that she is ready to work on the marriage through action....not words.)
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
(And no, I am not advocating MC UNTIL she makes it clear that she is ready to work on the marriage through action....not words.)

Right! Hence you are either in or your out.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by mako
GALing is kind of tough with a sick spouse and 3 young kids.
I have not been to MD, but if I was there, I would find a hotel close to the coast, pack up the car and the three kids and go have a great weekend with them. Let sick mom stay home and recover.

Until sick mom misses what she lost, she will not desire you.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/14/21 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Until sick mom misses what she lost, she will not desire you.

Truth!
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/16/21 04:56 PM
What you all are saying makes a lot of sense. I will basically just parrot it back with my understanding. It all seems so simple looking it over, but in practice it likely never is.

What it all really comes down to is:
1) We both need to be attracted to each other for this to work
2) We both need to be committed to working on the M for this to work

(These shouldnít be controversial. Really need to be true for any healthy R. 1 seems obvious. And 2, good Mís donít just happen, they take work, and we already didnít work out once so if we donít change anything thatís where weíll likely end up again)

Obviously she BDíd me, so these werenít true for her. Iíve already said I wasnít happy prior to BD either so 1 wasnít really true anymore for me either, and I was willing to do 2 but never followed through.

So we both need to make some changes.
3) For 1 to happen, we both need to work on ourselves to be more attractive people
4) For 2 to happen, we both need to put in more effort, whether that is MC, better communication, or whatever.

I've been doing IC and reading and trying to recognize more of my role in all this. I could be better at GAL but I am trying there too. So I am working on 3. I am not sure that she is doing anything on 3. I have said, she is certainly treating me better and being far less distant than she was prior to BD, so that is something, maybe that is more on 4, but either way it isnít a whole lot. Iíd like to see more. What she is doing isn't really changing 1 for me.

4 seems more like a it takes two to tango thing. Itís harder to do by yourself. I am still willing to do 4, but it feels outside my control until she steps up. So I wait on that and focus on 3.

So a big thing now is I need to figure out how long I want to wait on improvement. Setting the date as Steve says. If she doesnít do 3, my attraction to her is just not going to be there, and if she wonít do 4, the M is certainly going to fail. So yeah, it is reasonable to say, in my mind, if you aren't going to do these things it isn't going to work out so I will be prepared to end it myself. I'm not sure yet how I feel about when that should be, so for now I'll say a year from BD. That's February, and gives us both more than enough time to make progress. Obviously things could happen to quicken or delay this so we'll see.

One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it. As far as 180s go, I should be open and honest about my wants and needs. But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count. I appreciate that I have a number of folks with thousands of posts commenting. You all have seen a lot of sitches and have a lot of experience here. I also appreciate I don't want to push her away. So for now I'm not going to say anything about it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/16/21 08:23 PM
For the record Iím not in the consensus. I donít agree you just play it out until next February and then D her. Right now she has zero incentive to work on the marriage so must likely she wonít. WWs do not magically find their way back to their spouses.
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/16/21 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Mako
One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it.

Mako, that sounds passive-aggressive! I don't think that's the take-away.

Originally Posted by Steve
I am not advocating MC UNTIL she makes it clear that she is ready to work on the marriage through action.

A common DB maxim is that MC is pointless unless you're both saying "Yes!" to the relationship. I see you posting here, wondering about MC, doing IC, trying to figure out the right amount of physical contact. What is she doing to show you that a successful marriage to you is a priority in her life?

We worry you're in a fake recon--a long limbo followed by BD #2. A couple of options have been proposed--

1) Wait upto X time for her to commit so you're not in limbo forever.
2) Require commitment as a term of any reconciliation.

Some members have taken approaches in-between these. I'll bring up Discernment Therapy again. Some required their spouses to make progress on a commit/no-commit decision within a reasonable time. You don't need to make a decision quickly, it's great to take your time, just don't get stuck too long. (:
Posted By: may22 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/16/21 10:58 PM
Here's my recommendation-- give all the worrying about IC and MC, worrying about whether to touch her or not, etc. a break for a period of time, like at least a month or two, then re-evaluate. Spend that time to continue to just focus on you and DBing. Be kind, be positive, GAL as much as possible, keep a PMA around her at all times. When you're with her, be present, make good eye contact, listen and validate and all the rest, then go and do your own thing. I think you're still in the DB-ing phase. Focus on being the best dad you can possibly be. She's shown interest but she isn't all in, so keep doing what was working-- DB-ing.

I don't think you can consider yourself in piecing until she's telling you she's IN and wants to do the hard work. MC until then, as others have said, is pointless.

Originally Posted by LH19
For the record Iím not in the consensus. I donít agree you just play it out until next February and then D her. Right now she has zero incentive to work on the marriage so must likely she wonít. WWs do not magically find their way back to their spouses.

I agree with LH that WWs don't magically find their way back to their spouses. However, I only agree with LH here if you were just sitting around pretending things were fine till next Feb and then dropping your own bomb. If you follow MWD's recommendations and continue to DB that whole time, it is entirely possible that she will come around.

Also, you have zero control over what she thinks or does. You can't wish her into desiring MC or you. All you can control is yourself. So spend the time focusing on the DB principles and she may eventually want back in. If she doesn't, you're still better off anyway as you spent the time working positively on yourself.

I did discernment therapy and think it was helpful in my sitch but mostly because I was not okay with continuing the status quo as it was. From my read of your sitch, I doubt that you'd get a positive outcome pushing either MC or DC at this point, but that's just me. My recommendation is to be patient and keep on DBing for awhile first.

Hang in there! Hug your kids!
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 12:22 AM
So again itís another sitch where girl gets to go on dating apps and sleep around and then comeback home with zero consequences.

This never works! Ever! Go read Gordie's thread in MLC. Go read SaltyDogs thread.

On page one you say she says she is in. Make her prove it.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by mako
What you all are saying makes a lot of sense. I will basically just parrot it back with my understanding. It all seems so simple looking it over, but in practice it likely never is.

What it all really comes down to is:
1) We both need to be attracted to each other for this to work
2) We both need to be committed to working on the M for this to work

(These shouldnít be controversial. Really need to be true for any healthy R. 1 seems obvious. And 2, good Mís donít just happen, they take work, and we already didnít work out once so if we donít change anything thatís where weíll likely end up again)


Well said.

Originally Posted by mako

Obviously she BDíd me, so these werenít true for her. Iíve already said I wasnít happy prior to BD either so 1 wasnít really true anymore for me either, and I was willing to do 2 but never followed through.


Recognizing that it takes two tango is good. Likely neither of you were perfect spouses, and neither were happy. So there is plenty of blame to go around.

Originally Posted by mako

So we both need to make some changes.
3) For 1 to happen, we both need to work on ourselves to be more attractive people
4) For 2 to happen, we both need to put in more effort, whether that is MC, better communication, or whatever.


Remember, you can only control you! So you make the changes related to 1 and 2, and leave her to figure out 1 and 2 for herself. Where so many LBSs get into trouble in limbo is by pressuring and pursuing. You go and work on #1, you go and work on #2. She will either respond positively to that or she will continue to be obstinate. You have no control over that.

WWs are similar and different to geology. Geology takes time and pressure. WWs take time (like geology) and LACK of pressure (unlike geology). So that is why the right move is to always back off and remove all pressure. Look at limbo as the gift of time where you go off and work on yourself through IC, GAL, 180s, and learning how to be a self-differentiated individual (detachment). You leave them to figure out their own garbage.

You know all that but I say because I see you saying both, both, both. And I just want to remind you that you have no control over her related to 1-4. She has to arrive there on her own.

Originally Posted by mako

I've been doing IC and reading and trying to recognize more of my role in all this. I could be better at GAL but I am trying there too. So I am working on 3. I am not sure that she is doing anything on 3. I have said, she is certainly treating me better and being far less distant than she was prior to BD, so that is something, maybe that is more on 4, but either way it isnít a whole lot. Iíd like to see more. What she is doing isn't really changing 1 for me.


Good self-recognition, and reading where she is at. All of us have been there, where again, we were confused. "She BD'd me. But now she is being nice, she is doing things as a family, she is talking about the future. I don't know what she wants!" Remember, when she wants to recommit to the marriage you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused. The point behind that is that if you still have questions, if you aren't seeing what you expect or need from her, then she probably isn't there yet. So your choices are: give her more time......or move forward without her.

Originally Posted by mako

4 seems more like a it takes two to tango thing. Itís harder to do by yourself. I am still willing to do 4, but it feels outside my control until she steps up. So I wait on that and focus on 3.


Disagree. You can become a man only a fool would leave. That is you doing #4. She will either respond positively to it, or she will be already so far checked out that she won't care. Her reaction to it is less important than you becoming the best version of yourself.....FOR YOU! So many LBSs make the mistake of DBing with one eye on how the WAS is reacting. "I am doing X! Oh she is being nicer! I am doing Y, oh she is acting like she wants to still leave. I am doing Z, she isn't even noticing!" A watch pot NEVER boils.

Originally Posted by mako

So a big thing now is I need to figure out how long I want to wait on improvement. Setting the date as Steve says. If she doesnít do 3, my attraction to her is just not going to be there, and if she wonít do 4, the M is certainly going to fail. So yeah, it is reasonable to say, in my mind, if you aren't going to do these things it isn't going to work out so I will be prepared to end it myself. I'm not sure yet how I feel about when that should be, so for now I'll say a year from BD. That's February, and gives us both more than enough time to make progress. Obviously things could happen to quicken or delay this so we'll see.


Obviously I agree with setting a drop dead date. Won't beat that dead horse. But again, I am seeing a lot of "If she, blah blah blah". Again, you are doing all of this for Mako. February is for you! This is not something you broadcast to her. "You have until February or I am going to leave myself." You do not want to set her up to manipulate it. You will never know if her recommit is genuine or if it is to buy more time. WW love to have their cake and eat it too. If you give an ultimatum sometimes they will make decisions that buy them more time. Especially in IHS where they are still getting the benefits of having a H, all be it one they've stated they do not want anymore.

What I think you are still missing Mako is that DBing is for you! Setting a drop dead date is for you! Moving forward is for you! When you do these things for yourself, sometimes the WAS will realize "wow, he is really moving away from me!" Sometimes that will wake them up. However, when you do all of those things for the WAS' benefit they almost NEVER will respond positively to it. To them it will feel like you trying to manipulate them and they will push back against it.

So do all that for you, regardless of what her reactions to it are. Move forward for you!

Originally Posted by mako

One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it. As far as 180s go, I should be open and honest about my wants and needs. But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count. I appreciate that I have a number of folks with thousands of posts commenting. You all have seen a lot of sitches and have a lot of experience here. I also appreciate I don't want to push her away. So for now I'm not going to say anything about it.


Reread what MWD says about MC. MC can work when both partners are all in to making the MR work. If one has one foot out of the door, MC almost never works. And holding her accountable until she is fully recommitted is pressure and pursuit. You shouldn't be thinking about holding her accountable right now. Being open and honest about your wants and needs is pressure and pursuit.

As far as "But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count." That is correct! It does have to be her idea. It has to be her idea to work on the marriage. It has to be her idea to give the MR another shot. It has to be her idea to change her mind about what she stated on BD. I always like the analogy of a cat. If I pick our cat up and put her on my lap, by instinct she will jump down. Lots of time she will immediately turn around and jump right back up....because it has to be our cat's idea to jump and sit in my lap! Your WAW is the same way. If you try to grab her and put her on her lap, her instinct will be to jump and run. If she comes to you on her own and wants to work on the MR, there is a lot higher chance that it will actually take.

Just my thoughts......I do think Mako you are in a better space than a lot of other posters here. But we've also seen a lot of LBSs that jumped all in with the requirements and stating their wants and needs at the first sign the WAS was having second thoughts on the D, and it almost always results in the in the WAS running the other direction.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
[quote=Mako] You don't need to make a decision quickly, it's great to take your time, just don't get stuck too long. (:


Thank you! This is what I have been trying to say, but this is much more succinct and to the point!
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 04:20 PM
This is why the recon rate is at about 5%. There is no accountability and the LBS is fine with status quo and at best it is a stay of execution until the WW walks again.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 05:07 PM
The recon rate is 5% because by time BD happens the WAS has been considering that for 2+ years. Further, most LBSs do the wrong things (beg, plead, promise, use logic, etc). Or they become super-spouse giving the WAS everything they ever wanted in an effort to nice them back. Or they constantly barrage the WAS with temp checks, like the 5 year-old in the backseat: "Are we there yet?"

Backing off, giving space, going and focusing on yourself gives you a higher chance of reconning......but even thenl if the WAS wants to walk, they'll walk................
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 06:01 PM
What everyone else said. My thoughts about MC is that no one should be forced to go to marriage counselling as that just leads to more resentment. Also...the WAS may agree to go but never assume they go with the same goal. The LBS may be going to keep the marriage together whereas the WAS is going to either justify their departure and/or try to make it an easier exit. I would avoid MC altogether unless your WAS tells you she is interested in going because she wants to keep the marriage together. Unless she is that explicit, it would be a waste of your time and just give you a false sense of hope. As everyone here has told you, this is the time to focus on DBing and GAL for YOU!!! (((HUGS)))
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So again itís another sitch where girl gets to go on dating apps and sleep around and then comeback home with zero consequences.

Mako's W indicated she was done and wanted a divorce--THEN bought lacy underwear and went onto Bumble. She was actively pushing the D along. She ended a relationship that wasn't working. The consequences, if both choose to rekindle the marriage, is they now have hurts and trust to repair beyond the original work.

When my ex and I reconciled, she had a hard time with me sleeping with another, and I had a hard time trusting she wouldn't suddenly quit. We had to repair those beyond the original (ultimately unsolved) issues.

LH, clearly she's not all-in. I suspect if he pushed her, she'd run away, don't you?

I also agree pretending he's already piecing or in a committed relationship would be folly.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
LH, clearly she's not all-in. I suspect if he pushed her, she'd run away, don't you?


It's possible but if she does it's better now then later. This BS cookie cutter advice of detach, 180, become a man only a fool would leave NEVER works. Find out where you stand right now, heal then move on.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/17/21 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by mako
What it all really comes down to is:1) We both need to be attracted to each other for this to work
No. Attraction is a small part of it. Yes, you should understand attraction and become an attractive Male. Not to win her, but it is a good way to be.

Quote
2) We both need to be committed to working on the M for this to work
Not at this stage. You need HER to express her commitment to you before you make your decision.

Quote
if we donít change anything thatís where weíll likely end up again
Correct. The way YOU interact with her is the important changes YOU need to make. Again, you do not do this to win her back, but rather as an expression of your new found wisdom and personal growth as a man.


Quote
I've been doing IC and reading and trying to recognize more of my role in all this
Good. Clean up your side of the street. Keep your personal growth a priority. It should be a never ending process.

Quote
So a big thing now is I need to figure out how long I want to wait on improvement. Setting the date
Where are your core values in all of this? Has she had sex with someone else? If so, has she expressed regret? Is she actively having sex with someone else? What behavior have you, or do you, or should you show when dealing with these type of disrespectful behaviors?

Quote
One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it.
MC should be one of your unconditional terms, but it should be HER idea.


Quote
As far as 180s go, I should be open and honest about my wants and needs.
At this phase of the process, you may want to be selective. Timing and wording play an important role.


Quote
I appreciate that I have a number of folks with thousands of posts commenting. You all have seen a lot of sitches and have a lot of experience here.
I believe we had more success stories back when I was going through my sitch about 10 years ago. Some of the wisdom from back then has been lost.

Changing my believes, my behavior and the way I interact with woman (as well as men) all started from this website. My parenting beliefs and style were also part of my personal growth journey that started back then.

This is your journey and you can keep the traits you like, drop the ones you don't and incorporate new ones as you see fit. Your spouse may or may not give you feedback, but ultimately you should be the judging your behavior. Did I behave the way that I wanted? Am I making decisions based on my core values? Am I changing my behavior for the better?


Posted By: may22 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by CWarrior
LH, clearly she's not all-in. I suspect if he pushed her, she'd run away, don't you?


It's possible but if she does it's better now then later. This BS cookie cutter advice of detach, 180, become a man only a fool would leave NEVER works. Find out where you stand right now, heal then move on.


I suspect MWD would disagree with you. LH, I am constantly surprised by the fact that you spend so much time on this site and not over on, say, the chump lady's website. It really doesn't seem like you subscribe to the principles of DBing in general.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by CWarrior
LH, clearly she's not all-in. I suspect if he pushed her, she'd run away, don't you?


It's possible but if she does it's better now then later. This BS cookie cutter advice of detach, 180, become a man only a fool would leave NEVER works. Find out where you stand right now, heal then move on.


I suspect MWD would disagree with you. LH, I am constantly surprised by the fact that you spend so much time on this site and not over on, say, the chump lady's website. It really doesn't seem like you subscribe to the principles of DBing in general.

Actually May DB principles are for what they are attended to do. You improve yourself move on and you find someone better who doesnít bail when things get tough and who doesnít cheat and destroy the family. Thatís what is considered a success story. He can and will most likely do that. If by chance he wants to reconcile with his W who BTW said she wants to work on the marriage he needs to get some backbone and make her work for it. Heís been through this before and seems like a pretty strong dude and able to hold is ground.

You guys gave the same advice and argued with me with Salty Dog and his W fell in love with another man.

Now he can certainly play the long game pretend like nothing happened and wait until she walks again. Cheaters cheat thatís what they do. There are enough statistics to prove it all over the internet.

May never forget that MWD is here to make money. Before your time she would have people on here soliciting coaching sessions. Thatís why she never talks about success rates, timelines or how many people end up cheating again.

Something to think about.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by LH19

Actually May DB principles are for what they are attended to do. You improve yourself move on and you find someone better who doesnít bail when things get tough and who doesnít cheat and destroy the family. Thatís what is considered a success story.


Plus 1 ! - its not all about reconciling.. It's about moving forward towards a happier life.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by may22

I suspect MWD would disagree with you. LH, I am constantly surprised by the fact that you spend so much time on this site and not over on, say, the chump lady's website. It really doesn't seem like you subscribe to the principles of DBing in general.


May, I guess everyone is coloured by the nature of their experience. I know that you suffered awful treatment at the hands of your H, and I'm sure it is no recompense, but you have also had the benefit of his remorse and attempts to makes amends. Remember that not everyone has had that. Please don't take that as a slight on you, I know from your posting that you are kind and compassionate, and I think that almost everyone else on here is too, in their own way.

I may not agree with 100% of what LH says, but his intentions are pure and he is ready to support anyone on here with the message that is coloured by his experience.

What is the point of this forum? For me, I know I came here at a pretty dark time and more than anything, as unhealthy as this sounds, it was a crutch. I didn't even need a response to my sithc, just anyone posting having remotely the same experience as me eased the hurt that I was feeling. Being told that no matter what happened I would be ok, and to continue focussing on myself got me through some hard times. Does it matter whether it was 180, detach, become AMOAFWL or move on, go dark, never look back...I don't think so.

This site has people who have shared experiences, some recon, some don't. But most of us come out the other end better from the experience because we learn a of things about ourselves and a better way to live, some of these encapsulated by DBing, some extra to DBing. I'm not sure of the utility of arguing these points and I'd love to see this forum get back to the core of helping each other, whatever form that may take.

R2C, AS are very wise. MrBside, LH are blunt and direct, May and CW are compassionate, SteveLW is SteveLW (jokes). What's more important is that these people take the time to help others who really, really need it. They need to know that what is happening is not unique, that we understand and that whatever happens you will be ok and in fact its a grand opportunity to improve, although it might not be what for in life....but hey isn't that life all the time?
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 12:16 PM
Sorry for the hijack Mako
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 12:24 PM
Mako, I am not sure if all of this back and forth is helping you or not. The bottom line is that it is up to YOU to decide when to pull the plug and stop waiting for her to come around. I stand by the fact that a mere 3 months after BD is way too early. Most of these situations took years to go into, they do not turn around in weeks.

When in doubt, go back to solid DB principles:

- DO not start R talks
- Remove all pressure and pursuit
- Get a life! (You've admitted to not doing this very well!)
- Continue to self-improve, 180 on bad behaviors (just resist the temptation to use 180ing as an excuse to break the other DB principles!)
- Continue to work on loving detachment

I would always go back to Cadet's welcome message and start reading whenever I got conflicting advice on my thread. It happens. We have a lot of perspectives on this board. We have the dump and run folks. We have the wait forever folks. We have a lot of folks in between! But remember this is not a site with any poster's name on it, this is Michele Wiener-Davis forum, so when in doubt go back to the source. MWD helped me immensely in my situation, not only on what I should or shouldn't be doing, but also on learning to empathize with what my WW was going through. No one, not even a WW, wakes up in the morning and thinks: "Hmmmmm, what can I do today to destroy as many lives as possible?"

Nope, the WW is fueled by selfishness (which results in destroying lives) and emotion. There isn't a lot of intent involved, though sometimes there is since most WW feel hurt by their LBH. But in the majority of the cases the WW is simply trying to do things to find her own happiness again. That was one of the best pieces of insight that I received in my own sitch was that my WW wasn't doing what she was doing to hurt me, she was doing what she was doing in order to try to be happy.

So mako, we are here to support you. Some posters are more confrontational with other posters that they disagree with than others. I don't agree with that tactic because it results in unhelpful back-and-forths in a LBS's thread where all they want is support and advice. So when that happens, default to Cadet's welcome message. Pick up Divorce Remedy and read it again. Go back to the basics of DBing.

3 months is a drop in the bucket for these sitches. We've seen WASs/WSs change their mind about wanting to R or wanting to D over several months. What I can tell you is to reiterate what CW said above, if they show signs of coming back and you force them to choose at that exact moment, more than likely they will choose to continue to move for D. Some of the best advice I got when my WW started to show signs that she was moving back to the MR (and it wasn't her words, in fact the words "I want to try to save the MR never came from her lip!"), was to take things slow and easy. A few of the veterans here at the time actually told me "When the WW starts to show signs of coming around, that is the time to double down on DBing, not to start pressuring and pursuing!" Some really good advice.

So take your time. Be patient. Adhere to solid DB principles. And when in doubt go back to MWD's own words and teachings for what you should be doing!

You've got this Mako! Hang in there, believe it or not things will get better no matter what ends up happening.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 01:27 PM
Mako,
I'm the the Steve camp of this is your life and these are your decisions to make, so you do what you feels best but always be DBing. It's what's best for you, and it's what's best for the MR if there's a chance to R here. I'd really urge you to go read through my thread. 4 months my H was in an active affair then he was dumped pretty unceremoniously by OW. Days after he was dumped he was looking for physical affection. The true affection, the emotion, the remorse, the big feelings and big talks. All of that came later.

It's difficult to find on here, if I have some time and I try to find some of the the links somewhere. Steve posted some good ones on May's thread recently. The OG DBers like R2C's original group talked more about R and piecing because like he said there seemed to be more of it then. I have my own personal opinions on why but that's besides the point. What I read when I found that info was that reconciliation and piecing aren't truly one in the same. Reconciliation is the time period in which you the LBS gets to reintroduce the new you to the WS and the WS gets to reintroduce themselves to the LBS. You with your new found better man-ness and her with her new found remorse and change of heart. New eyes. New people. You start, starting over. Not more MR 1.0 dragged on with a coat of new paint. Like actual new people dating and getting to know each other again. Feeling out if this is going to work. In particular you feeling out if you want to keep going down this road or cut your losses. Assessing the things like is this a game? Is this her biding her time? Does it feel like she's genuinely trying or is she trying to decide what to do with you? Are you willing to wait this out long enough to find out? Do you have the wherewithal to not push her? Do you have the will to work on you and keeping working on you and not dropping everything and dumping it in to fixing the MR because like every one is saying what will fix it is DBing principles?

A 3 month turn around is rare but not unheard of. But like Steve said it's a drop in the bucket. In this part it's going to take her as long if not longer to decided what she really wants, to see you as a person of value and to show and say how remorseful she truly is, not about blowing up your lives but genuinely about hurting you like that (not any of this I didn't mean to hurt you stuff). If she's on that path it'll happen but it's going to happen on her timeline not yours. You will have to drop any expectation that you a) can control the path of any of this b) you can control her. Expectations must go out the door. This is why you have to focus on you. If you're focused on continuing to grow and move forward regardless of out come you aren't left the time or energy to control her journey here. I think a while back I wrote this on May's thread. Probably over a year ago now. While your journeys here are parallel they are not the same path. You'll each have different terrain to traverse, hills to climb, and storms to weather. You'll both be subjected to watching each other navigate, but you have no control over how fast or slow, or well or poorly she completes her journey. And if you want this to work, you let her do her work and you do yours. When it's time you'll walk the path together.

If you guys get through that individual journey. If you make it to true remorse and find yourself in a place where you are fine regardless of outcome you may have a real go at reconciliation that will make it to piecing. That's when you begin to put the work in together. That's the time you have control over the momentum and direction of the journey. Until you're at the bridge where R meets piecing your list of wants and needs in MR 2.0 is irrelevant. You have to actually see MR 2.0 on the horizon before you can start digging in. Know what you need to cross that bridge, but now isn't the time to hand her the list. Now's the time to just keep moving forward one step at a time.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 01:45 PM
That should say CAN'T control. I didn't get to the edit button quick enough.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 01:59 PM
So it just finally hit me that Steveís advice to the LBS is to act like a WW. Detach because thatís what WWs do from their spouse and their families. Work on yourself because thatís what WWs do they start exercising, Botox, boob jobs. Find new friends thatís because thatís what WWs do. Then out of nowhere after x amount of time you bomb them by filing for D.

Or you sit down with them because they have expressed interest in reconciliation and you discuss where you went wrong and what you will do to move on to marriage 2.0. If they want to work towards that with you great! If they do not that is ok too. Going back into limbo is rarely ends well for the WW spouse.

Assuming Sandi is ok health wise which I really hope she is, my guess is she left the board because her voice wasnít being heard. She would NEVER advocate a LBS pretend like nothing happened.

Great debates by good people who are trying to help strangers get through the hardest thing they have most likely ever went through in their lives.
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 07:49 PM
I appreciate all of this back and forth. There is a lot of good advice in this thread and I thank you all, not just those I am directly quoting or responding to. I see merit to what everybody is saying.

Originally Posted by may22
Here's my recommendation-- give all the worrying about IC and MC, worrying about whether to touch her or not, etc. a break for a period of time, like at least a month or two, then re-evaluate. Spend that time to continue to just focus on you and DBingÖ.

I don't think you can consider yourself in piecing until she's telling you she's IN and wants to do the hard work. MC until then, as others have said, is pointless.


One negative in my sitch is that I'm starting to get a bit mentally drained. I know that 3 months is not really a long time in the grand scheme of these things, everyone here has gone way longer, but Iím tired of trying to analyze everything and be on all the time. Iíve been whipped around a bit and was even pretty much done and prepared to move on, which to some extent seemed easier than where I am now. A month ago I was more relaxed and at peace, lately Iíve been much more stressed.

[I donít mean to belittle what has happened, and Iím sure a lot of LBS would love to be where I am now, but it is just a different place than a month ago with its own difficulties.]

Anyway, all thatís to say that Mayís first sentence up there is pretty compelling. I think I need to just take a break where I continue to work on myself but stop worrying about all the rest so much for a little bit. This is just more DBing and less pretending that we are piecing or Ríing or whatever you might call it. The past month I have gotten more neurotically analytical and worrying more about her than me. Whatever the correct road is here, I donít think thatís it and I need to quit it. Getting into R talks and thinking about how to see if she wants to do MC is not going to let me quit it. I donít think two months is going to be necessary but two weeks might be. Not meaning a break from this board, just from overanalyzing the sitch in my head all the time.

I know this leads into what LH has been saying. That this is just going back into limbo and pretending like nothing happened with no consequences. Sure, waiting lets her off the hook and keeps the limbo for now; I just need to make sure 2 weeks doesn't become 6 months. I know that he is right too when he says that she canít just say sheís in, she has to prove it. But LH seems to think she should know right now, and I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's all going to ebb and flow, more like wayfarer is talking about with feeling out and dating almost a new person. Anyway, waiting and still working on me at least is moving me forward, in a way that I wasnít prior to BD, so it is something, and lets me clear my head for the next phase of this.

I think that it is the case that I am going to bring up MC at some point. Iíd rather not wait, knowing this is a deal breaker, then drop a bomb if she never happens to bring it up. If I donít make clear that itís necessary to me she wonít know that, and donít all LBS wish the WAS would have said more prior to BD? I can make my feelings known without it being a controlling or forceful way, so it is still on her. I also think LH has a good argument that if we just go back to how it was before BD itís just going to happen again. At the same time I recognize that if sheís not into MC it will be pointless, but if thatís the case, then thatís the case.

For whatever itís worth, my IC is more in line with LHís opinion, that I should try to get her into MC sooner rather than later, as Iím just going around confused most of the time and we need to communicate more, which MC will facilitate. Maybe once my 2 week break is over Iíll have a better feel for whether this will push her away. Ultimately, I would hope that I know her well enough to see if this is going to be a productive thing or not.

I also think I should address this, because perhaps some advice from some people will be different depending on what has actually happened:
Originally Posted by R2C

Where are your core values in all of this? Has she had sex with someone else? If so, has she expressed regret? Is she actively having sex with someone else? What behavior have you, or do you, or should you show when dealing with these type of disrespectful behaviors?


She opened her bumble account the day we separated and she left the house, which was a few weeks after BD. She has said that she went out with a couple guys but did no more than talk to them. When she said she wanted to work on the M she also said she deleted the app and told them she was getting back with me and done. I have no reason not to believe her on any of this. Yes there was new underwear, but Iím not going to assume anything based only on that. These things do not particularly bother me very much at this point (if it turns out she was lying to me that will bother me, possibly more than whatever happened). I could be naive, but to me going on a few dates after separation, while we are actively planning a D, is different than doing so prior to BD.

Anyway, you all can feel free to continue arguing on this thread if you like laugh I am gaining something from it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 08:26 PM
Itís not so much arguing and it is us voicing our opinion mostly based on past experiences. The problem is that Steve and May can tell you to detach, GAL and see what happens and guess what when you get bombed again there life doesnít change on bit. Go back and read there stitches which are public knowledge and you will see there sitches turned around when there spouses fantasies got blown up and they became uncomfortable. Steveís wife started to have to look for a job and was on the other side of 50 and she didnít like that prospect. It wasnít because Steve went to the gun range.

In my sitch early on I got fed up one day and was ready to call a lawyer. My ex did not like that and started back tracking. The problem is I let up and once she got comfortable again she started planning her exit strategy. Now this certainly could have happened either way but I can promise you WWs have zero incentive to work on the marriage.

Certainly taking some time to think things through makes sense. I just wouldnít wait until February.

BTW your MC is a wise person lol. Also just for the record you shouldnít force her into MC if she doesnít want to go but if she refuses then you should 100% move on. Just one manís opinion.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 08:55 PM
I would also say to you my advice to you is different because this isnít your first rodeo. To me it makes a difference.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/18/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Anyway, you all can feel free to continue arguing on this thread if you like laugh I am gaining something from it.


ďOne of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrongĒ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Originally Posted by mako
... she said she wanted to work on the M...
Why? (loaded question here).








Posted By: OnlyBent Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
The OG DBers like R2C's original group talked more about R and piecing because like he said there seemed to be more of it then. I have my own personal opinions on why but that's besides the point.


Always interested in others' thoughts on this Wayfarer
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 03:29 PM
Doing nothing is doing something. It's an active choice to live your life while you let the other person spin, alone. You can't be bombed twice if you don't care. Not saying much and watching things play out isn't a lack of consequences. Nor is it status quo. Yes it's limbo, but no it's not at the detriment of the LBS if they are working on themselves. Only the relationship is standing still, the LBS doesn't have to be.

My doing nothing involved me retaining a lawyer, having legal separation papers drawn up. Splitting our finances. Working out a post split budget. Window shopping for things I would need once H and his D left. Working on reconnecting with people, furthering my education, working out, lots of therapy to work on lots of things. I held out hope that H would wake up. I got lucky. He did, but I was preparing myself for things not to work out the way I wanted. Because that was the reality of the situation. It could've gone either way. I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to shock a Wayward or Walkaway into anything. It's manipulative and highly unlikely that it will do anything if they already have a foot out the door. I'm sure for a percentage leading in the race to end things scares them straight, but it wasn't worth my personal time to play that kind of a game. By all means if you're done be done, keep moving forward with the D, but for me personally, I don't like idea of playing this like it's a game of chess. Pre DB and post DB I have the attitude that I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, you want to leave, then leave, you want to stay, then stay. That's your decision.

Sandi while I adore her and she has gobs of wisdom isn't the end all be all of of WW. The concept that all Waywards or Walkaways are exactly the same, share all the same feelings, have the same thoughts, and will act or react identically is silly. Not all LBS are the same either, in crisis yes, but on the other side of crisis so much is so different for each of us. Other than the very basic DBing principles the choices and journey here need to be of the LBS's choosing. There are MLC LBSs that have been "doing nothing" for years. Years. Was that for me? Nope, but if I had been married 20+ years I don't know who I would be, or the choices I would make in that situation. I wasn't so I picked 1 year as a drop dead date. I also didn't see a PA as an absolute line in the sand. For some LBSs that's a hard line. I get that, but that's not for me, so I had to be free to choose what I was willing to continue my MR through. I was willing to suffer through an IHS where my H was actively having a very public affair. But that was my choice. That is not a path everyone is built for. The purpose of the varying advice and opinions is because of those differences some advice will be useful some won't. One of Sandi's biggest rules is take what works for you leave what doesn't.

Lastly, You aren't beholden to your IC. And any IC who is pushing MC for a spouse who's on the fence isn't a very good IC. You want and end to the confusion I'd suggest discernment counseling. MC if she's still undecided will just fast track you guys to D with absolutely none of your questions answered or confusion clarified. MC is a giant magnifying glass on the cracks in your relationship. That's why most recommendations are to stay away from it until both parties are committed to the relationship. You'll gain communication skills and learn things about your spouse that will create moments of deep emotional intimacy but that is laced with that magnifying glass. Two people who aren't fully committed to the relationship with certainty will imploded in MC.

Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Doing nothing is doing something. It's an active choice to live your life while you let the other person spin, alone. You can't be bombed twice if you don't care. Not saying much and watching things play out isn't a lack of consequences. Nor is it status quo. Yes it's limbo, but no it's not at the detriment of the LBS if they are working on themselves. Only the relationship is standing still, the LBS doesn't have to be.

Cookie cutter advice Detach, GAL 180.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
My doing nothing involved me retaining a lawyer, having legal separation papers drawn up. Splitting our finances. Working out a post split budget. Window shopping for things I would need once H and his D left. Working on reconnecting with people, furthering my education, working out, lots of therapy to work on lots of things. I held out hope that H would wake up. I got lucky. He did, but I was preparing myself for things not to work out the way I wanted. Because that was the reality of the situation. It could've gone either way.

This is perfect advice for Mako! Start by getting a lawyer.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to shock a Wayward or Walkaway into anything. It's manipulative and highly unlikely that it will do anything if they already have a foot out the door.

Uuuuum not a shock since she told him she wants to work on the marriage. I think that has somehow got lost in this story.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Sandi while I adore her and she has gobs of wisdom isn't the end all be all of of WW. The concept that all Waywards or Walkaways are exactly the same, share all the same feelings, have the same thoughts, and will act or react identically is silly.

Uppercut from Wayfarer. Down goes Sandi lol.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Not all LBS are the same either, in crisis yes, but on the other side of crisis so much is so different for each of us.

Agreed. Mako has been through this before. He's got his big boy pants on. Wife are you in or are you out?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Other than the very basic DBing principles the choices and journey here need to be of the LBS's choosing.

100% the LBS has to live with their choices.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
The purpose of the varying advice and opinions is because of those differences some advice will be useful some won't. One of Sandi's biggest rules is take what works for you leave what doesn't.

agree 100%

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Lastly, You aren't beholden to your IC. And any IC who is pushing MC for a spouse who's on the fence isn't a very good IC.

How about when the WW says I want to work on the marriage?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Two people who aren't fully committed to the relationship with certainty will imploded in MC.

Agree 100%
Posted By: may22 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 06:52 PM
FWIW.

The reason that MWD's core DB-ing basic advice remains detach, GAL, and 180s is that it works. Maybe it works to lead to reconciliation. Maybe it just leads to a better you. That is the philosophy of this board. So I find it kind of odd that LH wants to keep calling it cookie cutter and force Mako to give his W an ultimatum, which I'm fairly certain will lead towards D. LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website.

I agree with WF and Steve85 on this. Mako, if you want out, go. If you want to give your M a chance, focus on you and release all pressure on her. Let go of CARING about all the back and forth of what to do and not to do, where her head is or isn't. Detach! Spend all that extra energy you were expending worrying about her on things that feed your soul (GAL!) Take a hard look at your own behaviors and change up your ingrained responses to external stimuli, whether from your W or your child or something else. (180s!)

I think where LH is off base here is that somehow by your W saying the words that she wants to reconcile (while deathly ill) that means it is what she knows she wants 100%. (or, more likely, he knows she isn't and so by pushing her on this she'll tell you she's not and that frees you to dump her.) It seems to me from what you've posted here that she isn't wholly in. Maybe she wants to be, but she's still confused. Pushing her on anything from physical contact to MC is just going to push her out the door. (Or, she'll say the words she knows you want to hear, but she won't really be there.) Patience is the name of the game here.

LH feels like all you are doing is kicking the can down the road by not confronting her now and making her say all in or all out. What Steve and WF are saying (and I agree) is that the DBing principles are not a waste of time, regardless of whether you practice them with her in the house or on your way to a merry D. I think LH can't conceive of DB-ing while living with your spouse, and I agree that it isn't for everyone. But I did it and so did Steve and WF, so it is clearly possible. Not easy. But possible.

For me, I wanted to be able to know in my bones that I did everything I could to save my M for my children and I used that to fuel my ability to be patient. Again, this isn't for everyone. It was awful and $hitty and you can read my thread if you want to know how much it $ucked. But I decided early on that the most important thing for me, looking back at this time in my life, is that I didn't have any regrets, and so I tried to do everything I could from the perspective of looking back. Maybe you worry that your biggest regret will be that you didn't move on sooner! if that is the case, then go! Everyone is different. You need to think about what your core values are, how you want them represented in your life, and what that means for the choices you make today.

I also hit a point where I wasn't okay with waiting anymore, and that is when we went to discernment counseling. So that could also be an option for you. However, reading your words, I don't sense that you're at that point-- but that is something for you to consider as well.

I will tell you from my own experience, just having your spouse say they're committed DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. I absolutely 1000% agree with Steve that once your spouse says that to you, you need to double down on DBing, not let up. I think it would be a huge mistake to start an R talk now and make your W say she's all in, MC, IC, till death do us part again, or you're walking (unless you want to walk and just want an excuse to have given her a last chance).I just don't see that getting you anywhere. But just my two cents.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by may22
FWIW.

The reason that MWD's core DB-ing basic advice remains detach, GAL, and 180s is that it works. Maybe it works to lead to reconciliation. Maybe it just leads to a better you. That is the philosophy of this board. So I find it kind of odd that LH wants to keep calling it cookie cutter and force Mako to give his W an ultimatum, which I'm fairly certain will lead towards D. LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website.

I agree with WF and Steve85 on this. Mako, if you want out, go. If you want to give your M a chance, focus on you and release all pressure on her. Let go of CARING about all the back and forth of what to do and not to do, where her head is or isn't. Detach! Spend all that extra energy you were expending worrying about her on things that feed your soul (GAL!) Take a hard look at your own behaviors and change up your ingrained responses to external stimuli, whether from your W or your child or something else. (180s!)

I think where LH is off base here is that somehow by your W saying the words that she wants to reconcile (while deathly ill) that means it is what she knows she wants 100%. (or, more likely, he knows she isn't and so by pushing her on this she'll tell you she's not and that frees you to dump her.) It seems to me from what you've posted here that she isn't wholly in. Maybe she wants to be, but she's still confused. Pushing her on anything from physical contact to MC is just going to push her out the door. (Or, she'll say the words she knows you want to hear, but she won't really be there.) Patience is the name of the game here.

LH feels like all you are doing is kicking the can down the road by not confronting her now and making her say all in or all out. What Steve and WF are saying (and I agree) is that the DBing principles are not a waste of time, regardless of whether you practice them with her in the house or on your way to a merry D. I think LH can't conceive of DB-ing while living with your spouse, and I agree that it isn't for everyone. But I did it and so did Steve and WF, so it is clearly possible. Not easy. But possible.

For me, I wanted to be able to know in my bones that I did everything I could to save my M for my children and I used that to fuel my ability to be patient. Again, this isn't for everyone. It was awful and $hitty and you can read my thread if you want to know how much it $ucked. But I decided early on that the most important thing for me, looking back at this time in my life, is that I didn't have any regrets, and so I tried to do everything I could from the perspective of looking back. Maybe you worry that your biggest regret will be that you didn't move on sooner! if that is the case, then go! Everyone is different. You need to think about what your core values are, how you want them represented in your life, and what that means for the choices you make today.

I also hit a point where I wasn't okay with waiting anymore, and that is when we went to discernment counseling. So that could also be an option for you. However, reading your words, I don't sense that you're at that point-- but that is something for you to consider as well.

I will tell you from my own experience, just having your spouse say they're committed DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. I absolutely 1000% agree with Steve that once your spouse says that to you, you need to double down on DBing, not let up. I think it would be a huge mistake to start an R talk now and make your W say she's all in, MC, IC, till death do us part again, or you're walking (unless you want to walk and just want an excuse to have given her a last chance).I just don't see that getting you anywhere. But just my two cents.


Mako I will differ to May as she went to an IVY league school and her opinion is smarter and better then everyone else.

Bottom line is you should only want to be with someone who wants to be with you.

Detach, 180 and GAL my friend!
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by may22
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .

This is a very ignorant statement on your part that Pi$$es me off because I don't agree Detach, 180 and GAL is the right move for Mako.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 08:57 PM
Wow! Mako, you also lured me out of retirement .

Iím getting a pedicure reading the interesting back and forth.

I donít agree with detach GAL 180 as the sole action in this. Mako has done that before. And look. His wife left yet again. And came back yet again. If she said she wanted to reconcile a second time, well, I sure as heck would want to see something happen. I would be direct about it too. Because this is the second time heís going down this road! How many times does he want to sit and wait in the corner afraid to poke the lion?

That is truly up to him. If he wants to cycle through this again, this way, by all means. But there is a cycle here.and nothing wrong with mako being clear and precise of what he needs to see this time around.

But I do agree, he canít go down that road if he canít handle finding out this is a false start. But if heís ready to lay down what HE NEEDS to see, he absolutely should! This is not bad advice in his situation. But mako, if you want to just do your own thing while she does her own thing, go ahead. But I donít think you are going to get what you desire out of that action, except walking down this road yet again in the future
Posted By: MLCxH Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by may22
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .


Definitions of the phrase cookie cutter include - "having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic"

Detach, GAL and 180 is a powerful tool and is beneficial for us to adopt in our lives in more than one situation. However, implying that posters on this board should always align with the core tenets of the founder of this website or head over to a different board is implying that individuality and personal opinions should be eliminated when in conflict with the core "detail, GAL and 180" generic advice regardless of the situation. I wonder how that does not come down to giving "cookie cutter advice on detach, GAL and 180"?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Wow! Mako, you also lured me out of retirement .

Iím getting a pedicure reading the interesting back and forth.

I donít agree with detach GAL 180 as the sole action in this. Mako has done that before. And look. His wife left yet again. And came back yet again. If she said she wanted to reconcile a second time, well, I sure as heck would want to see something happen. I would be direct about it too. Because this is the second time heís going down this road! How many times does he want to sit and wait in the corner afraid to poke the lion?

That is truly up to him. If he wants to cycle through this again, this way, by all means. But there is a cycle here.and nothing wrong with mako being clear and precise of what he needs to see this time around.

But I do agree, he canít go down that road if he canít handle finding out this is a false start. But if heís ready to lay down what HE NEEDS to see, he absolutely should! This is not bad advice in his situation. But mako, if you want to just do your own thing while she does her own thing, go ahead. But I donít think you are going to get what you desire out of that action, except walking down this road yet again in the future



Ginger, mako's first sitch was with his first wife. They D'd. This new sitch is with his second W, they married in 2009.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 09:45 PM
My bad.

I was more referring to the bomb drop in 2018 where she never did leave but said she wanted a divorce.

GAL is great. For anyone in any situation

180ís are good, but there are only so many people need to make. Itís not there is everything wrong about us that we need to change.

Detach, well, yeah, donít make your every decision and have every emotion attached to your partner. Thatís what detachment means to me anyways.

Obviously she says she throws the divorce word around. Not cool. What really needs to 180 is saying to wife ďhey, this is the second time you said you wanted a divorce and now you say you want to reconcile. How can we get to that point together?Ē

I think LH is saying just leaving them there to do their own thing while they figure out what they really want is kind of BS. When thatís done, patterns are sure to repeat. If someone says they actually want to work on the marriage there needs to be open communication, a plan a s both parties needs addressed and the WAS shouldnít get all the power
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 10:12 PM
Ginger, the problem with that is that the WAS DOES have all the power. Shouldn't has nothing to do with it. The LBS, by definition, wants to save the MR. However, that's now solely up to the WAS. That's why 99.9% of LBSs come to DBing and this forum. If it was as easy as saying "are you in or are you out" and then Ring when they are and Ding when they aren't, then MWD would never have had to write DB and DR. One of the first rules of DB is to not start any R talks. There is a reason for that. It isn't because MWD came to that on a whim. It is because talk is cheap and the R talks almost never go the way the LBS thinks/hopes that it will. So when a WAS says "I want to work on the marriage" it actually is really simple to see if that is true or not: do their actions match those words?

Even if you have the R talk, and by some aligning of the stars it actually goes the way the LBS hopes and the WAS says again they want to work on the marriage....the proof is in the action that follows. That's all I've been saying to mako. If he is still wondering at this point if her illness time pronunciation that she was ready to work on the marriage was real, then it wasn't! And no amount of breaking DB principles, like starting an R talk, will change that.

And mako if you did follow that advice, and she crushes your grapes by saying, "no I still want a D", then what? I'm guessing at this point you still aren't ready to throw in the towel, are you? So it will gain you nothing.

Your sitch, your choice. But I'm afraid it won't go the way you want it to, and you'll be worse off for having had the discussion than if you didn't.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by wayfarer
OG DBers
I give up. I can't figure out what an OG DBer is.
Posted By: pinn Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by wayfarer
OG DBers
I give up. I can't figure out what an OG DBer is.


It stands for "original gangster". It means old school DBer vets like the good old days. This place desperately needs some of them back.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/19/21 11:18 PM
Wow. WWs have all the power. That statement makes me want to punch myself in the dick. Mayís husband has a two year love affair and heís the prize and has all the power. Steveís has multiple EAs that he knows about and sheís the prize and has all the power. I guess that is why the recon rate is low. Again Detach, GAL 180 is great. While youíre at it you mind as well say ďif you love someone set them free and if it was meant to be they will come backĒ.

Letís pretend for a second he takes your advice and a miracle happens and she comes around in a couple years. The minute he lets his guard down she walks again. A quick google search will tell you a cheater is 350% more likely to do it again then someone who hasnít cheated.

If he gets bombed again then he moves on and finds someone better. He did it once he can do it again.

Watch the YouTube link below for a better understanding of WWs.


Jacko Willink

How to get over break ups and betrayals
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/20/21 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by may22
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .


Definitions of the phrase cookie cutter include - "having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic"

Detach, GAL and 180 is a powerful tool and is beneficial for us to adopt in our lives in more than one situation. However, implying that posters on this board should always align with the core tenets of the founder of this website or head over to a different board is implying that individuality and personal opinions should be eliminated when in conflict with the core "detail, GAL and 180" generic advice regardless of the situation. I wonder how that does not come down to giving "cookie cutter advice on detach, GAL and 180"?

MLCH my man. Thanks for having my back dude!
Posted By: may22 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/20/21 07:06 AM
MLC, Ginger, LH-- I'm not, actually, parroting cookie cutter advice (although LH's dig at my educational background is pretty awesome, thanks for that).

Mako, I honestly meant every word of my post. I don't think you'll get the outcome it seems you're looking for if you push your W into an R talk right now. She may just say she wants a D again, or she may say what you want to hear but not be committed inside. Believe none of what they say and half of what they do. Her actions matter and it doesn't sound as though she's ready to recommit to the M. What does that mean for you? You want to walk? Walk. You have an entire cheerleading squad here pushing you to do that. You're not ready for that? Then chill out and focus on detaching and GAL. That's all I'm saying.

Peace, guys. I don't need more @holes in my life and so I'm out. Not worth it. Hope you guys find happiness.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/20/21 08:55 AM
Wow! Now we are aholes because we donít agree with your advice. Look May Iím really sorry that itís come to this but you and Wayfarer donít control peoples opinions and whatís posted on the board. To suggest to me because I donít have your same point of view as you and I need to go post on another forum is rude and ignorant. For Wayfarer to call out Sandi after I believe 15 years of trying to help people was rude and ignorant.

The truth is Mako may not get the response he wants from his W. He may also not get the response he wants by detach, GAL and 180.

Again I know you are really smart so after some reflection you will see you donít control whatís posted on the board and other peoples opinions.

Mako obviously you have some options and thinking to do.
Posted By: MLCxH Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/20/21 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
I was debating whether I should take the time to respond to this, but I feel it is important for the benefit of people on this board.

Originally Posted by may22
MLC, Ginger, LH-- I'm not, actually, parroting cookie cutter advice


I would encourage you to go re-read MWD's LRT technique. From what I understand, there are three steps:
Step 1 - Stop the Chase: This is what we also refer to as detach
Step 2 - Get a life: This not only includes GAL but also implementing 180s to improve yourself
Step 3 - Wait and watch: MWD says that there are three possibilities in step 3. The first is "Nothing", the second is "Your Mate Becomes Curious" and the third is "Your Spouse has a change of heart".

In the first possibility she states "Unfortunately, there are times when, no matter what you do, your spouse has firmly shut the door on your marriage". In these instances you need to move on and focus on healing. How long a person waits and how they make the decision that the spouse has shut the door on the marriage differs on the individual and their sitch. As everyone has stated, that is Mako's decision to make. I hence don't agree your advice is any more more aligned with MWD's core tenets than that of LH or Ginger's. This is why individuality and difference in opinion needs to be respected. It prevents us from falling into traps created by our own bubbles and providing 'cookie cutter' advice to others.


Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by may22
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .


Definitions of the phrase cookie cutter include - "having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic"

Detach, GAL and 180 is a powerful tool and is beneficial for us to adopt in our lives in more than one situation. However, implying that posters on this board should always align with the core tenets of the founder of this website or head over to a different board is implying that individuality and personal opinions should be eliminated when in conflict with the core "detail, GAL and 180" generic advice regardless of the situation. I wonder how that does not come down to giving "cookie cutter advice on detach, GAL and 180"?

MLCH my man. Thanks for having my back dude!


You are welcome, LH. I find you to be a voice of reason in this forum and feel many have benefited from you. While I don't always agree with your opinion/advice I find it to be constructive and aligned with MWD's core tenets.

Incidentally, I had not heard of the Chump Lady prior to this and I checked out her page online. It is easy to poke holes and criticize others but difficult to do something constructive. MWD's work on DB/DR has helped so many people whether it is to save their relationships or heal from the breakup. I did not take time to read the Chump Lady's page fully but at a quick glance I don't think your advice is aligned with her thoughts and I am sorry your advice on this board was compared to that.

Originally Posted by may22

Peace, guys. I don't need more @holes in my life and so I'm out. Not worth it. Hope you guys find happiness.


Talk about irony, since I find what you are doing here to be aligned with LH's advice regarding moving on when it is not worth continuing to having some people in our lives smile

Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/20/21 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by MLCxH
You are welcome, LH. I find you to be a voice of reason in this forum and feel many have benefited from you. While I don't always agree with your opinion/advice I find it to be constructive and aligned with MWD's core tenets.
I don't think anyone should agree with everything I say on these boards. I give thought to each specific sitch. Is the LBS strong enough yet to pull this off. Can I in good conscience give him/her advice to get his/her WAS back? What was I thinking and feeling early on? What do I now know that I wish I knew then.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
Incidentally, I had not heard of the Chump Lady prior to this and I checked out her page online. It is easy to poke holes and criticize others but difficult to do something constructive. MWD's work on DB/DR has helped so many people whether it is to save their relationships or heal from the breakup. I did not take time to read the Chump Lady's page fully but at a quick glance I don't think your advice is aligned with her thoughts and I am sorry your advice on this board was compared to that.

I appreciate it. I have not check her out yet and not sure I ever will. I have certainly has worse things said to me on this board.

Originally Posted by may22

Peace, guys. I don't need more @holes in my life and so I'm out. Not worth it. Hope you guys find happiness.


Originally Posted by MLCxH
Talk about irony, since I find what you are doing here to be aligned with LH's advice regarding moving on when it is not worth continuing to having some people in our lives smile

May is feisty and got caught up in something she is passionate about. It happens to me all the time. Hence we are all works in progress.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/21/21 10:04 AM
So I just wanted to comment on a point I made earlier in this thread. Joe Dredd just poster after 10 months. He was separated GAL, detaching,180. His W got comfortable in her life and told him she was going to D him. So Steve jumps on and says I hope youíre getting a lawyer. Which of course is the right advice but Iím guessing That advice is not comforting right now.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/21/21 11:11 AM
I'm no expert at DBing, I know I did it poorly, but even if I had, it would have made no difference. What has made a difference for me is gaining my self-respect back. And I did that by not putting myself in a situation where my STBXW could treat me like dirt and I keep hanging round hoping for a change in heart. Further to that, of all the sitches that I know of in real life, the LBS has dropped the WW/WAW and never looked back. The WW/WAW after a time, came back wanting another chance, but in every sitch the person that I knew didn't want them back, too much damage done.

I find it curious that DBing teaches detaching, yet there is numerous cases on here of posters leaving because of something a stranger on the internet has said to them, where's the detachment? Should LH have had a dig at May's education, I don't think so (just my opinion), but his actions over the years have shown he is caring and giving (in his own way), although not perfect. Judge on actions not words...another DB tenet? Aren't we supposed to DB to everyone?

If one can forgive their H for basically being in a relationship with another W for 2 years, surely a random poster who has been through the same experiences can be forgiven for a silly comment. Just my two cents. TIOLI (take it or leave it).
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/28/21 03:23 PM
Ok Mako. No more nonsense on your thread. How is it going?
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/29/21 10:32 PM
Hi LH,

Nothing new at this point. Iím still in the clear my head/not push the issue mode. Things are fine in general, just nothing on that front.

Our 10 year anniversary is in 2 weeks. I havenít brought it up with her or made any plans, not sure what to do about it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/30/21 08:23 AM
M,

That depends. She said she wanted to work on the marriage. Is she putting any effort in? If so plan something lite like dinner. If not then I wouldnít do anything.
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/30/21 02:51 PM
Yes, while you're in limbo, don't plan a grand romantic evening (pressure, trying to buy her love, highlight what's missing). Anniversaries can feel like darned if you do / darned if you don't!

You probably know I'm a romantic! Early in the day, I'd probably give her a single truffle and a card with no mention of the day but a simple expression of gratitude for something done (where there's no future desire or expectations)--e.g. "I'm thankful you gave me two beautiful children." NOT "I'm thankful you raised our kids for 10yrs." Hopefully, you see the second statement reeks of expectations. As an LBS, it's hard to do a tiny thing, easier to do nothing or a grand romantic gesture. If that's you, do nothing, but a tiny thing would show you remembered and care. The truffle or other tiny (<$5) item (not reeking of romance) shows you know her tastes. Doing it early gives her the chance to guide you if she wants to try more.
Posted By: BL42 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 05/31/21 04:43 AM
mako,

Just re-read through your entire sitch. Wow, you really brought posters out of the wood-work to debate DB philosophies! I commented earlier in your thread, and it's been really helpful for me to read through it again. Lots of good advice.
Originally Posted by mako
Nothing new at this point. Iím still in the clear my head/not push the issue mode. Things are fine in general, just nothing on that front.
I wasn't good in my sitch with the limbo, and it feels like your back in limbo. It's good, potentially, she called off the divorce (if I understand correctly you two completed mediation and were about to finalize things when she told you she wanted to try again? Also she was on dating apps (Bumble) and going out, and possibly deleted the apps and isn't pursuing anything outside your marriage at this time? These things to stop the bleeding, so to speak, but has she taken any action on pursuing any reconciliation and working to improve things? As others mention, her actions speak louder than words.

Originally Posted by mako
Our 10 year anniversary is in 2 weeks. I havenít brought it up with her or made any plans, not sure what to do about it.

I have no idea. Honestly seems like it could be a no-win situation, and most likely completely depends on her viewpoint. If she's honestly open to working on the marriage than a gesture for the anniversary would be welcomed, but if she's not open to it than you could get "in trouble" for not doing anything or for doing something. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. Probably goes back to her mindset more than anything you do/don't do, imo.
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/01/21 02:56 PM
Thanks LH and CW. I am thinking something small. Like BL said, it's kind of a no-win situation where no matter what I do it could be spun as a negative, but that's on her not on me. So I will do something little to acknowledge the day because I want to, but will not plan on anything more. Living and acting with no expectations right now.

Originally Posted by BL42
mako,

Just re-read through your entire sitch. Wow, you really brought posters out of the wood-work to debate DB philosophies! I commented earlier in your thread, and it's been really helpful for me to read through it again. Lots of good advice.

I wasn't good in my sitch with the limbo, and it feels like your back in limbo. It's good, potentially, she called off the divorce (if I understand correctly you two completed mediation and were about to finalize things when she told you she wanted to try again? Also she was on dating apps (Bumble) and going out, and possibly deleted the apps and isn't pursuing anything outside your marriage at this time? These things to stop the bleeding, so to speak, but has she taken any action on pursuing any reconciliation and working to improve things? As others mention, her actions speak louder than words.


Yeah, I appreciated the back and forth from a lot of experienced DBers. A lot of good thoughts even though not everyone was in agreement.

You are right, we were basically done, the separation agreement was done, we were both going to have a final attorney review and then file. We had an appointment with a realtor to list the house, I had an appointment to look at new places to live...this was a last minute change. She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.

So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting. Limbo is good in some ways, bad in some ways. Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her. At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/01/21 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by mako
She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.

IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having. The longer this goes on the longer LIMBO becomes status quo.

I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/01/21 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave.

Yes, if they ever reconcile--they're clearly not reconciling right now--BOTH parties need to put in the effort to forgive past hurts and form a new bond. It's a dynamic balance and may not feel equal day-to-day. BL42's wife IMHO is more WAS than WW. She indicated she was done and wanted a divorce--THEN bought lacy underwear and went onto Bumble. She was actively pushing the D. She ended a relationship that wasn't working. A nuance here is a WAS often has less to be remorseful about than a WW, sometimes less than the LBS. I'm proud of my refusal to remain in a relationship with my XW that wasn't working, after 1.5yrs of trying. I'm romantic and believe in forever, but I also believe in the pursuit of happiness.

I'm currently reconciling as friends with both my XW and an Ex-GF I wronged. It's funny how, even though it's as friends, the process isn't too dissimilar to when I reconciled with the Ex-GF who BD'd me.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/01/21 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having....I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.


You are at a point in the process that is very similar to dating a new person. As the man, embrace your role to lead.

Covid is opening up things. I went and saw live music this past weekend. If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready.

At some point, you can say something along the lines of this:

"I am planning on going to this place to see this band. If you would like to join me, I will arrange for a sitter."

Body language, tone, eye contact, flirting are all important during this.

It is a negotiation between two people.
Posted By: BL42 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 01:56 AM
CWarrior,

Originally Posted by CWarrior
BL42's wife IMHO is more WAS than WW. She indicated she was done and wanted a divorce--THEN bought lacy underwear and went onto Bumble. She was actively pushing the D. She ended a relationship that wasn't working. A nuance here is a WAS often has less to be remorseful about than a WW, sometimes less than the LBS.

Not sure it changes anything for mako, but believe you've mixed up stories. For me BD was two weeks after a nice family vacation with the kids and I immediately found out there was at least an EA and possibly PA, then confirmed a PA, and (now) Ex-W went on to OM2 before moving out and filing for D. Don't believe she was ever on Bumble - I was referring to mako's W in that he knew she was doing online dating and had finalized an agreement but his W backed off filing and putting the house on the market, and at least claimed to stop using dating apps.

Completely agree on both parties need to want R and put in the work though. I just get the sense mako's W while backing off the D a bit (and possibly the dating) isn't necessarily "all-in" either on putting in the work for R. The concern this forum typically has is she just might be biding her time until finding a new option rather than actually want to R.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having....I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.

You are at a point in the process that is very similar to dating a new person. As the man, embrace your role to lead.

Covid is opening up things. I went and saw live music this past weekend. If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready.

At some point, you can say something along the lines of this:

"I am planning on going to this place to see this band. If you would like to join me, I will arrange for a sitter."

Body language, tone, eye contact, flirting are all important during this.

It is a negotiation between two people.

I like R2C's idea of lining up some music, food, and fun (or whatever fits your interests) without expectations and be flirty and offer her to join. Worse case, you enjoy your night even if it's alone.

To LH's point, it should be her equally seeking out those things with you if she really wants to R. Until she's doing those things it isn't real.

Originally Posted by mako
Thanks LH and CW. I am thinking something small. Like BL said, it's kind of a no-win situation where no matter what I do it could be spun as a negative, but that's on her not on me. So I will do something little to acknowledge the day because I want to, but will not plan on anything more. Living and acting with no expectations right now.

That's the key - go out and fun fun regardless and if she joins you it's gravy.

Originally Posted by mako
So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting.

Limbo is difficult. Because you want the marriage to work and don't want the family to break up you can't pull the chord while she's half in.

Originally Posted by mako
Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her.

Completely hear you on not having to split time with the kids - that is a plus. And trust me, I empathize with you on the monthly child support...it's the next 15-18 years for me! Not a fun check to write.

Originally Posted by mako
At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.

Yep. The longer she waits to actually start trying (if she ever does) the more you'll get bitter and the less you'll want to.
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 04:42 AM
@BL42, lol, I meant to write ďmakoĒ not ďBL42Ē. Your sitch is very, very different! Cheers, mate.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by mako

Yeah, I appreciated the back and forth from a lot of experienced DBers. A lot of good thoughts even though not everyone was in agreement.


Good to hear. I worry about when debates like that break out in poster's threads that it isn't really helping the poster. While we are all here to espouse MWD's methods, each of our unique experiences colors our perspective. It is always a good tactic, I believe, to go back to a poster's own threads to determine why they may see something differently than someone else. I know there are posters here whom, due to the advice they give, I go read their own sitch and try to empathize with what they went through and why they advise the way that they do. Often times in these types of debates, neither side can see the other's and that sometimes let's it get more contentious than it otherwise might. So I am glad you found value in it!

Originally Posted by mako

You are right, we were basically done, the separation agreement was done, we were both going to have a final attorney review and then file. We had an appointment with a realtor to list the house, I had an appointment to look at new places to live...this was a last minute change. She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.


mako, by BD the WAS is usually basically done. This is one thing that LBSs struggle with. They think the situation started on BD, because that is when it started for them. It is pretty well documented that most WAS have been noodling on the idea of blowing things up for up to 2 years before BD! I understand that your sitch, post BD, had moved on towards separation and D becoming a reality, but she had likely been on that journey for a very longtime prior to BD. The point I am making is that if it took her that long to get to that point, it could take equally long to come back the other direction. WASs tend to be more like ships than zero-turn mowers. Rarely do they turn away from their "I want a D!" pronouncement quickly. My sitch had a relatively fast turnaround, but it was till months, not days for it to happen.

Originally Posted by mako

So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting. Limbo is good in some ways, bad in some ways. Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her. At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.


I like the attitude here. It shows that you have the patience to give her the time to work out her own stuff. I think you put a "1 year past BD" drop-dead date on your sitch previously, and I applaud that. I think it is important for the LBS to have an end goal in mind. I'd say 1 year past BD is the minimum a LBS should give it, but it is up to the individual LBS to decide how long they should wait. I agree that you should be looking for actions on her part that shows she is working on improvements, but remember, her saying she was back was a very early initial step. Remember, ship! At that point she started to turn the ship around (maybe), you have to give it the time it will need for her to complete that turnaround. In the meantime, you know what you need to do: DB!

We are here to support, mako!
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 01:30 PM
Hey Mako,

So I come to this stuff from the perspective of both a WW in my first MR. And as an LBS in my second. So when I see advice to LBH's I'm a little wary when people get a little too personal situation specific. Some things are true of all WS/WAS. Some is not. However a lot of the advice here is gold make sure to digest it.

R2C's advice of GALing but opening the invitation is such, such good advice. "If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready." Sandi is a big proponent of that. It's in the DR book. And it worked for me. We were pretty trapped due to Covid last summer but I would go hiking and invite him or to our neighbor's for a drink around the fire. He refused often in the beginning but eventually started warming up and joining. After time he started inviting me to his plans, and then eventually wanted to make plans together. Much like when you start dating. Like the early, early days. Not yet committed, but not entirely single either. Not saying this is fool proof. None of this is. It's all 1/2 chance 1/2 choice here. However, if there's a door to be opened this is an excellent way to find out without pressure or being invasive. But that only rings true if you can do so with out expectation. You have to have a "the chips will fall where they may" attitude about all of this or you will end up hurt, frustrated and disappointed. WS/WAS do not work on an LBS time line. They work at a sloth like pace until they don't. It makes no sense but it is what it is. Expectations set you both up for failure.

Which brings me to my next point, well Steve's point actually. "WASs tend to be more like ships than zero-turn mowers. Rarely do they turn away from their "I want a D!" pronouncement quickly. My sitch had a relatively fast turnaround, but it was till months, not days for it to happen." This line of Steve's not only made me giggle because of the sheer accuracy but it's also a good thing to keep in mind going forward. If there is going to be a return here, a recon, she is going to do it at her own pace, and you will have absolutely no control over that. She won't do it at a pace you'd like. She won't do it linearly either. If this isn't her biding her time parts of the relationship will start to get on track faster than others. It will be confusing, and frustrating. But If this is what you want and you're willing to wait for it you have to sit in that confusion and you can't dump it on her. We each make choices here. Choosing to wait it out often means eating sh!t sandwiches you more than likely don't deserve. But if it's the path you choose it comes with the territory.

All of this takes time. More than you would like it to. And limbo genuinely stinks. I'm glad you've picked a drop dead date. It really does relieve some weight off your shoulders. Good luck mako.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 02:01 PM
So I think to get a clear picture you we need to look at what has transpired. M's wife went onto OLD to test her SMV (sexual market value) looking for a BBD (bigger better deal). At some point she found that deal and was ready to make the deal final. Somewhere along the way that deal went south and now she wants to stop the D process. She didn't stop the process because she realized she is madly in love with MAKO. She lost her BBD. So MAKO can certainly see how it plays out or he can decide he is no one's plan B and dictate what he needs to see from her to move this marriage forward. I totally agree with Wayfarer " If this isn't her biding her time parts of the relationship will start to get on track faster than others. It will be confusing, and frustrating. But If this is what you want and you're willing to wait for it you have to sit in that confusion and you can't dump it on her. We each make choices here. Choosing to wait it out often means eating sh!t sandwiches you more than likely don't deserve. But if it's the path you choose it comes with the territory."

I also agree when she said "All of this takes time. More than you would like it to. And limbo genuinely stinks. I'm glad you've picked a drop dead date. It really does relieve some weight off your shoulders."

Here's the rub. If she is biding her time it certainly is not going to turnaround by next February. WWs can go many years in LIMBO.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/02/21 09:18 PM


Hi Mako,

I have learned and practiced a huge set of relationship behaviors since my divorce 10+ years ago.

I am not looking for answers, but rather throwing this out for you to think about.

Have you done your homework in attraction and seduction (there is a difference)? How much have you changed your behavior since the bomb drop? Are all the negative traits gone? Are the new attractive ones habit now? Is your SMV significantly higher? Are you a BBD than the "old you"? Will she be pleasantly surprised next time you are intimate? What about each time after that? Are you now an expert in listening and validation? Has there been enough time and space for the resentment to fade?
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/03/21 06:48 PM
Ready2Change, since this may interest mako and we've already used/abused this thread--

For ATTRACTION an online course suggested being confident in yourself is key (i.e., address anything that makes you insecure) and to remember you're evaluating your date/partner as much as they are evaluating you (equal balance of power). I seem to do well--probably those common-sense notions help.

For SEDUCTION, hmm, when there's mutual attraction, romance seems to fall into place no matter how smooth or unsmooth my moves, because we both want it to. When mutual attraction is lacking, most moves feel forced/gamey. I'm curious what your top tips would be--light touch whenever an opportunity arises?

I suspect in dating your long-term happiness is optimized by focusing only on situations where the mutual attraction is high, but in WAS/LBS situations you may not have that convenience starting out.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/03/21 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
For ATTRACTION an online course suggested being confident in yourself is key (i.e., address anything that makes you insecure) and to remember you're evaluating your date/partner as much as they are evaluating you (equal balance of power). I seem to do well--probably those common-sense notions help.


Here is a good read on ATTRACTION:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984

I view seduction as a covert way of attracting. There has not been much discussion on the boards on this topic.
There is a link here about SEDUCTION:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
Definitely a must read during ones personal growth.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/03/21 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I have learned and practiced a huge set of relationship behaviors since my divorce 10+ years ago.

I am not looking for answers, but rather throwing this out for you to think about.

Have you done your homework in attraction and seduction (there is a difference)? How much have you changed your behavior since the bomb drop? Are all the negative traits gone? Are the new attractive ones habit now? Is your SMV significantly higher? Are you a BBD than the "old you"? Will she be pleasantly surprised next time you are intimate? What about each time after that? Are you now an expert in listening and validation? Has there been enough time and space for the resentment to fade?


Thanks for posting this R2C. I will not be Ring with my STBXW, but I will use this as a template moving forward with any potential partner to assess that my growth on development is a continuing and lasting process. These are great questions to keep asking oneself, I think it would be easy to become complacent once the pain of BD is firmly in the rearview mirror.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/09/21 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Our 10 year anniversary is in 2 weeks. I havenít brought it up with her or made any plans, not sure what to do about it.

What have you decided for the Anniversary?
Posted By: BL42 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/09/21 04:48 PM
mako,

Originally Posted by SteveLW
WASs tend to be more like ships than zero-turn mowers.

Fantastic quote from SteveLW!

Originally Posted by wayfarer
R2C's advice of GALing but opening the invitation is such, such good advice. "If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready." Sandi is a big proponent of that. It's in the DR book. And it worked for me. We were pretty trapped due to Covid last summer but I would go hiking and invite him or to our neighbor's for a drink around the fire. He refused often in the beginning but eventually started warming up and joining. After time he started inviting me to his plans, and then eventually wanted to make plans together. Much like when you start dating. Like the early, early days. Not yet committed, but not entirely single either. Not saying this is fool proof. None of this is. It's all 1/2 chance 1/2 choice here. However, if there's a door to be opened this is an excellent way to find out without pressure or being invasive. But that only rings true if you can do so with out expectation. You have to have a "the chips will fall where they may" attitude about all of this or you will end up hurt, frustrated and disappointed. WS/WAS do not work on an LBS time line. They work at a sloth like pace until they don't. It makes no sense but it is what it is. Expectations set you both up for failure

wayfarer - So glad it worked for you. Pretty slick.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Have you done your homework in attraction and seduction (there is a difference)? How much have you changed your behavior since the bomb drop? Are all the negative traits gone? Are the new attractive ones habit now? Is your SMV significantly higher? Are you a BBD than the "old you"? Will she be pleasantly surprised next time you are intimate? What about each time after that? Are you now an expert in listening and validation? Has there been enough time and space for the resentment to fade?
Thanks for posting this R2C. I will not be Ring with my STBXW, but I will use this as a template moving forward with any potential partner to assess that my growth on development is a continuing and lasting process. These are great questions to keep asking oneself, I think it would be easy to become complacent once the pain of BD is firmly in the rearview mirror.

As will I, OB! As will I.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by mako
Our 10 year anniversary is in 2 weeks. I havenít brought it up with her or made any plans, not sure what to do about it.
What have you decided for the Anniversary?

mako - Sounds like your 10yr anniversary is this coming weekend...you set?
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by LH19

What have you decided for the Anniversary?


We are going out to lunch and I got her flowers. Like I said, low key but acknowledging the day.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 12:38 PM
I personally tried to ignore my anniversary last year, but H wanted to recognize it. I told him I had plans that didn't include him. He told me to cancel them, it's a weird day, but we should do something. My best friends sent me flowers. H bought me dinner. It's turned out well but all of it was an internal struggle. I'm very interested in finding out what your W decided to do to mark the day.

Fun fact: "Traditionally, the 10th year of marriage is marked with tin or aluminum. Both materials represent the durability and flexibility needed to sustain a loving union."

Good luck Mako. I'll be thinking about you.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by mako
We are going out to lunch and I got her flowers. Like I said, low key but acknowledging the day.

Yikes! Nothing says "friend zone" like lunch on an Anniversary.

So one of the turning points in my sitch when I was in limbo was for Valentines Day my ex got me a card that I think was meant for a friend. That was my aha moment where I was like I got to just get out of this now. A month later she proposed nesting and I opted for divorce.

Anyways you have young kids so I understand you may want to play this out as long as possible. I still think you may have missed your opportunity by letting her back too easy. Gordie has thread in MLC in regards to letting his W back too easy. I think he is still in limbo 5 years later. Yo are not updating so I am assuming there is no movement.

Good luck with the lunch date!
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

Yikes! Nothing says "friend zone" like lunch on an Anniversary.


Well it was my idea, so I guess I've friend zoned her?

Originally Posted by LH19

So one of the turning points in my sitch when I was in limbo was for Valentines Day my ex got me a card that I think was meant for a friend. That was my aha moment where I was like I got to just get out of this now. A month later she proposed nesting and I opted for divorce.

Anyways you have young kids so I understand you may want to play this out as long as possible. I still think you may have missed your opportunity by letting her back too easy. Gordie has thread in MLC in regards to letting his W back too easy. I think he is still in limbo 5 years later. Yo are not updating so I am assuming there is no movement.

Good luck with the lunch date!


This makes sense. No there is no movement. Much of my problem is that I am not sure exactly what I want, so I am trying to figure that out. Some days I am ready to just be done and move on with my life. Other days I'm not. The former is more permanent (yes I know nothing is necessarily permanent) so I won't choose that until I know I'm ready. But I haven't had the a ha moment yet. Maybe neither of us is all in right now and maybe I let her back too easy. Honestly, I was all in at the end of April, but as she waits I drift further towards wanting to to move on. I really doubt I'll still be in this same place in 5 years. I gave myself a year but I don't think it will be that long.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I personally tried to ignore my anniversary last year, but H wanted to recognize it. I told him I had plans that didn't include him. He told me to cancel them, it's a weird day, but we should do something. My best friends sent me flowers. H bought me dinner. It's turned out well but all of it was an internal struggle. I'm very interested in finding out what your W decided to do to mark the day.

Fun fact: "Traditionally, the 10th year of marriage is marked with tin or aluminum. Both materials represent the durability and flexibility needed to sustain a loving union."

Good luck Mako. I'll be thinking about you.


Thanks! I kinda wanted to ignore it, but also kinda didn't. I actually ignored Valentine's Day this year, this was about one week before BD. Her feelings were already pretty clear and I was curious if she'd do anything if I didn't first. She ignored it also. But I didn't feel good about it, so I decided I didn't want to ignore this.

I'm curious too if she will do anything. I'm trying to live without expectations but I tend to overthink things.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by mako
This makes sense. No there is no movement. Much of my problem is that I am not sure exactly what I want, so I am trying to figure that out. Some days I am ready to just be done and move on with my life. Other days I'm not. The former is more permanent (yes I know nothing is necessarily permanent) so I won't choose that until I know I'm ready. But I haven't had the a ha moment yet. Maybe neither of us is all in right now and maybe I let her back too easy. Honestly, I was all in at the end of April, but as she waits I drift further towards wanting to to move on. I really doubt I'll still be in this same place in 5 years. I gave myself a year but I don't think it will be that long.

I get it. Its tough when you have young kids. It just frustrates me that your W has the nerve to try dating then when it doesn't work out to try to slide back into the marriage. Talk about making a mockery out of marriage. Probably why I will never get married again.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by mako
Much of my problem is that I am not sure exactly what I want, so I am trying to figure that out. Some days I am ready to just be done and move on with my life. Other days I'm not. The former is more permanent (yes I know nothing is necessarily permanent) so I won't choose that until I know I'm ready. But I haven't had the a ha moment yet. Maybe neither of us is all in right now and maybe I let her back too easy. Honestly, I was all in at the end of April, but as she waits I drift further towards wanting to to move on. I really doubt I'll still be in this same place in 5 years. I gave myself a year but I don't think it will be that long.
Limbo is just as much for you as it is for her, so you're probably right maybe neither of you are both totally in. And that's ok. There isn't some loss of power here biding your time as well You can just as easily walk away as her. Take your time. Feel good and solid in your decision whatever that may be. Unless the WS is one of those magically motivated ones you have time on your side. That drop dead date is for you and it's yours to change whenever you feel like it.
Originally Posted by mako
I'm curious too if she will do anything. I'm trying to live without expectations but I tend to overthink things.
You can have curiosity with out expectation. Wondering if she'll do something is different than expecting her to do something. I can remember a LBH like a year ago was aghast his WW couldn't be bothered with any effort on their anniversary after he did X, Y, Z and after weeks of people on the board telling him to not expect anything or do anything expecting a payout. As long as lunch an flowers is done without the expectation of return then it's simply that. You chose to acknowledge the day given it's a milestone. She either does or doesn't. You take it into account but be detached enough, and without expectation it's then simply a factor not an incident on your journey here.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
[Limbo is just as much for you as it is for her

This is so true! The number one thing that makes it such a different of an experience is DETACHMENT. WWs have it and LBS do not.
Posted By: Traveler Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 05:36 PM
Wise words from wayfarer on limbo and expectations.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by mako
We are going out to lunch and I got her flowers.


Every response I want to post to you is sarcastic. Which indicates that I am frustrated. Out of all the choices you have, why do you believe that lunch and flowers is the best choice?

Maybe I misunderstand what the current state of your relationship is. Do you want this woman as a lover? I go to lunch with my mom and bring her flowers.

Women need some type of fun or excitement in there lives. My job is to be that source for my lady. What is your role in your relationship? After the lunch date, will she desire you more?

What are you plans for the evening? Will it be fun and exciting? Are you going out alone? Will she be invited?


I am not looking for answers to these questions. They are for you to reflect on.
Posted By: BL42 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/11/21 07:56 PM
mako,
Not to pile on, but I tend to agree with LH and R2C.

Originally Posted by mako
Originally Posted by LH19
Yikes! Nothing says "friend zone" like lunch on an Anniversary.
Well it was my idea, so I guess I've friend zoned her?

Actually, isn't it usually the "friend-zone'd" guy who's asking the about making plans with the woman who has friend zoned him? He'll persist on meeting up and doing things even though she repeatedly rebuffs his moves when they hang. She'll either meet up, but only as friends, or decline the invite altogether if she has a preferable option.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by mako
We are going out to lunch and I got her flowers.

Every response I want to post to you is sarcastic. Which indicates that I am frustrated. Out of all the choices you have, why do you believe that lunch and flowers is the best choice?

Maybe I misunderstand what the current state of your relationship is. Do you want this woman as a lover? I go to lunch with my mom and bring her flowers.

Women need some type of fun or excitement in there lives. My job is to be that source for my lady. What is your role in your relationship? After the lunch date, will she desire you more?

What are you plans for the evening? Will it be fun and exciting? Are you going out alone? Will she be invited?

I am not looking for answers to these questions. They are for you to reflect on.

During IHS I was pressuring Ex-W to have a "date night" and she was obviously not thrilled (or more accurately, she was disgusted) at the idea, but she finally agreed. My thought (and my counselors) was that if we spent time together and interacted more it would improve things. Being a year ago during the height of COVID we ordered take out from a fancy local restaurant and she quickly said "I'll drive to get it" (without me) and then proceeded to stop the car to talk to our neighbors for a half hour, the food came back tepid, and we had a very basic conversation before she told me she didn't want to be there and went up to bed incredibly early (approx. 7:30pm). In retrospect, I wish I had the strength at never to suggest a date night and instead go out and do something myself.

Granted, the situation is slightly different in that my Ex-W clearly didn't want to be there and your W is at least backed off the D and said she's willing to try, but think the point is if she really was into trying she would be enthusiastic and make plans for the anniversary (or happily enhance the plans you've made). Are you getting a vibe she even wants to go to lunch, or has she simply agreed out of obligation? Because if it's the latter you may be better off going out and enjoying yourself rather than forcing something which won't help her perspective on the situation anyway.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 06/15/21 03:11 PM
How did the anniversary lunch go?
Posted By: mako Re: WAW willing to try, for now (#2) - 08/06/21 01:36 PM
new thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2922173&#Post2922173
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