HI All,
I have been reading and reading this over and over trying to get a sense of what to do.
Here's my story.
Me (F 38) and Husband (M40) have been together 10 years married 8 years. (Children S7, S6 and S1.5years) Live in Sydney, Australia
We have had a troubling time since the start as a result of his abusive and controlling nature as well as his gambling and alcohol abuse. He attended therapy before we became engaged and I thought for the most part his issues were over. His gambling was one of the conditions I put on him that it would stop after I discovered he had gambled nearly 10k before we were engaged.
While we were married , when we fought he would frequently tell me he wanted out and finally I saved him the trouble and said I was going to leave. This was our first seperation. (2018)
Without realising it I was LRT and GAL'ing and he realised he did want to work on us and did everything he needed.I was reluctant but he put in the work I thought and for the sake of our children (two at that stage) I wanted to at least try. He went to IC, Abuse Group Therapy, stopped drinking and gambling. We attended MC for a year and we finally felt that everything was good. We became more committed to our faith, we had our third child, purchased a house, his business was doing well and for the most part we were happy together.
I did feel our "troubles" were creeping back this last 12 months.(2020) I guess this was bought on by Covid, his business, just the state of the world in general. I wanted to go to MC as a sort of check in but life just got in the way. We would make an appointment but had to cancel because kids were sick, covid19 meant the next appointment was delayed etc etc
Finally one day (Nov, 2020) I checked an account we had that we keep for business purposes and discovered he was gambling. I wasn't snooping on him I was actually checking my payments that I had organised and accidently discovered it.
I had told him after our first seperation that I would'nt try again, I felt a little broken after it to be honest and told him if anything major was to happen or we fell into the same path I would just leave.
So I really didnt know what to do as I found out about it in front of him. I asked that we discuss it after the children went to bed that evening.
I was fuming to say the least, the lying, the carelessness with the business funds, it was such a betrayal to me.
We had a fight about it, he seemed both sorry and not sorry for what he did. I think it was more he was sorry I found out rather than anything else. However he promised he would stop. I asked him to do whatever he thought he could/would be willing to do in order to restore my trust in him. He said he would try but nothing came of it.
Come December and a Xmas lunch party he attended for work become an all night event fuelled by drugs and alcohol. I was really upset as he was supposed to come home after the party to help me put together a video for his parents anniversary party that was to take place the next day. He apparently did not appreciate that I asked him to come home at a certain time and that set him off.
We fought and argued over the next two months about our marriage as he revealed to me his does not love me anymore.
I wasnt so much upset at that as more his unwillingness to work on our marriage. He agree to MC and then disagreed and agreed and we were on this roller coaster for a while until he decided mid Jan he was done.
Since then I have been trying to actively implement the LRT. I feel I have not been consistent however.
He has been like a roller coaster of emotions. Angry, mean, happy, excited. He is living life like a single man at the moment. I suspect he is using some of the business cash payments to fund his current lifestyle because he is not touching our joint account. Our children have picked up on this and are upset with him for not being around as much and getting angry with them.
After his last episode I told him the children are our only priority and I refuse to do anything to do with the D or even consider anything regarding our S until he calms the F@#$ down.
He now is behaving much better around us all. He even went so far as to tell me he is still very sexually attracted to me. I decided to take advantage of this and have slept with him twice in a week. But I am unsure whether this was wise or not.
I want to Reconcile. I am not discussing anything with him regarding this and each time he wants to discuss our current stitch I either refuse or simply hear him out, say ok and leave the room. But he is aware I do not want this seperation/divorce.
Here are my questions
1. We are seperated but living together, he is sleeping on the couch. He wanted to leave the house but I am concerned about the children, they still remember the first time we seperated and occasionally discuss how much it hurt them. I asked him to stay and he at first reluctantly agreed but now is happy to.
Should I keep him at home or in the interests of speeding this along ask him to leave in order to LRT more effectively?
2. Should i continue to sleep with him? He has made it clear that his attraction is purely physical and nothing else. We are very compatible sexually. I have read on the forums here for a WAH that sexual/physical attraction is important. But I am not sure if he is cake eating or if I am being a doormat. Sex was an issue pre BD as I was always too tired when he initiated it. I am not feeling the same now as I have had some health issues rectified.
3. He is only minimally contributing to household chores/taking care of the children. However, he does keep telling me if i want to do something or take out some time to myself that he is more than happy to take the kids. Should i take him up on his offer and insist we have a plan for the week so we both do our fair share? This was an area of conflict pre BD as I felt he wasn't contributing equally. My motivation for doing this is so I can GAL more effectively and in the interests of showing him how much worse off he is as this will eat into his current bachelor style life he is leading.
4. Finances. He is a spender and I am saver and this has been an issue since we first met. My savings and assets have been used for us to be in the position we are currently in. However, i am concerned because should he leave the home, I will not be able to afford running the household expenses on my own. Should i request we create a budget ( we tried to pre BD however he never committed to it). Again, my motivation in doing so is to show him how much worse off we all would be should we actually divorce.
5. Mental health. He was never formally diagnosed but I have long believed he suffered from depression or some sort of issue. His current behaviour aligns with the descriptions on here of having a MLC. Lost weight, has a fitness regime, better dressed, was going to buy a new car, all about enjoying the now and getting out there and having fun. I don't think he is having an affair but again who knows?
Does my thoughts on this change my approach or is LRT and GALing enough.
6. Finally I am taking the approach of the less said the better, I am not arguing with him or engaging with him in conflict. When things get "testy" between us because he is one of his moods I deny any face to face contact until he stops. he can only TM at those times. That seems to be working.
However, I am concerned that he is misusing business funds and has twice now deliberately sold some cryptocurrency we had despite me asking him not to. Do i leave this for now? How do I go setting boundaries with him? Should I be setting boundaries or should I simply be standing back, detaching and worrying about myself? I have read some posts on here and I am confused. I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Thank you all, really looking forward to your thoughts and advice.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. 2
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Why on earth would you want to reconcile with this man? His behaviour is so egregious that staying together ‘for the children’ is quite likely to harm them long-term.
Hi Michka,
It sounds like you married a bad boy (abuse, gambling, alcohol, drug-user) and expected him to change. I’m kinda with Scout that it’s probably be better for you and the kids to find a healthy partner and limit his custody/involvement with the children to 50% or less if his behavior and local laws allow for it.
I was fuming to say the least, the lying, the carelessness with the business funds, it was such a betrayal to me. I felt a little broken after it to be honest and told him if anything major was to happen or we fell into the same path I would just leave. I asked him to do whatever he thought he could/would be willing to do in order to restore my trust in him.
You took it very personally that a man addicted to gambling.. gambled. I think part of your work—reconciling or not—will be accepting who he is. A scorpion stings, as Aesop’s fable tells us, even if he doesn’t want to. I’ve known people more or less happily married to a gambler or an a alcoholic. I think if you want a successful relationship, he can’t feel you’re going to treat it as a personal betrayal and/or leave every time he slips. He will slip up.
Four whammies (abuse, alcohol, gambling, drugs) seems like too many for a partner. Abuse alone is too many. From a “good of the kids” perspective, I suspect they’d be better off growing up with the story “We left your father because he was an abusive drunk” than “I kept an abusive drunk in your life so you could have both parents.” If you divorce, and work on yourself, you may even be able to show them healthy step-parents.
Should i continue to sleep with him?
The easiest question—if you’re enjoying it, and no expectations, why not? Play safe if you’re unsure about OW. It’s okay to sleep with the bad boy (or crazy sexy lady). Just don’t bring them home.
I am taking the approach of the less said the better
This is usually true. Words fueled by feelings, words they already know, words that apply pressure are usually best unsaid. “Hi!” is okay!
am concerned that he is misusing business funds and has twice now deliberately sold some cryptocurrency we had despite me asking him not to. Do i leave this for now? I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Boundaries should protect you, NOT try to control him. If you’re unsure about the lawyers opinion in terms of assets, ethics requirements, or business evaluation seek a second official opinion. Sometimes people talk to a friend whose specialty is different and that’s not enough. Consider also getting an accountant to assess your assets to ensure you aren’t missing other funds. The laws in my state in the US are likely very different than where you are so I completely defer to local legal/financial pros.
1. Should I keep him at home or in the interests of speeding this along ask him to leave in order to LRT more effectively?
I would consider which one is better for the children? Is his physical presence still providing some kind of normalcy to the family, or is his presence at home generating more negativity in the house?
2. Should i continue to sleep with him?
No, especially you already suspect that he's cake-eating and you're feeling like you could be a doormat. Not sleeping with him would give you more clarity emotionally as well.
3. Should i take him up on his offer and insist we have a plan for the week so we both do our fair share?
Yes. trust his actions not his words.
4. Should i request we create a budget ( we tried to pre BD however he never committed to it). Again, my motivation in doing so is to show him how much worse off we all would be should we actually divorce.
I don't think he sounds like a man who would care about having a budget. I think you should open an account of your own and start saving for yourself in case something happens down the line.
5. Does my thoughts on this change my approach or is LRT and GALing enough.
You can't diagnose him, so yes it really is - who knows?? You control what you can - yourself.
6. Do i leave this for now? How do I go setting boundaries with him? Should I be setting boundaries or should I simply be standing back, detaching and worrying about myself? I have read some posts on here and I am confused. I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Boundaries would be for yourself. Ex: "If you lie to me about money again, I will file for divorce." Again, you can't control his behavior. Take a good look at your finances and make sure you're protected.
and I also agree with scout. What about this man is keeping you in this M? What makes him loveable? Don't you agree that you deserve better? I'm sorry that you are here......but it is a long journey and it starts with discovering yourself.
Whats keeping me...? I perhaps articulated only the issues and problems.
95% its great...but when its bad, those are the issues we are having.
Thats Cadet. I have read both books and extensively read through the blog. The community here is wonderful
1
1. Should I keep him at home or in the interests of speeding this along ask him to leave in order to LRT more effectively?
I would consider which one is better for the children? Is his physical presence still providing some kind of normalcy to the family, or is his presence at home generating more negativity in the house?
Initially yes it was generating more negatively but my detachment and insistence he sort himself out as well as his concerns for the kids (I think) sorted this out. It has been three weeks now of very "good" behaviour. If he or I have had a concern (bear in mind it has only been related to household matters or the children, I am refusing any discussion of our R) it has been done very well I feel.
2. Should i continue to sleep with him?
No, especially you already suspect that he's cake-eating and you're feeling like you could be a doormat. Not sleeping with him would give you more clarity emotionally as well.
I am taking this on a day by day basis. It seems for him it has actually bought him much closer to me. It was an issue pre BD as I had a low desire? for it. This was because of my health issues and just life in general. He did tell me at BD that the rejection was a huge issue for him.
3. Should i take him up on his offer and insist we have a plan for the week so we both do our fair share? [/quote] Yes. trust his actions not his words.
I spoke to him regarding this and will implement a weekly schedule. We designed one together, its just awaiting being typed up and stuck on the fridge.
4. Should i request we create a budget ( we tried to pre BD however he never committed to it). Again, my motivation in doing so is to show him how much worse off we all would be should we actually divorce.
I don't think he sounds like a man who would care about having a budget. I think you should open an account of your own and start saving for yourself in case something happens down the line.
I am also in the process of obtaining a second job. He was not happy that I am doing this but financial security is very important to me.
5. Does my thoughts on this change my approach or is LRT and GALing enough.
You can't diagnose him, so yes it really is - who knows?? You control what you can - yourself.
This i have been really trying to do. I feel much better for it and I think he has responded positively to it at this stage. I am glad we are not fighting (although very aware that is because i have been very strict with my interactions with him and not engaging with him)
6. Do i leave this for now? How do I go setting boundaries with him? Should I be setting boundaries or should I simply be standing back, detaching and worrying about myself? I have read some posts on here and I am confused. I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him. [/quote]
Boundaries would be for yourself. Ex: "If you lie to me about money again, I will file for divorce." Again, you can't control his behavior. Take a good look at your finances and make sure you're protected.
I have contacted the banks, my lawyer and our accountant. Except for the business earnings, I am covered.
and I also agree with scout. What about this man is keeping you in this M? What makes him loveable? Don't you agree that you deserve better? I'm sorry that you are here......but it is a long journey and it starts with discovering yourself.
I think I wrote the post focusing on the worst of him. This is not me defending him but rather, having read over it now and seeing peoples responses I may not have been as fair in my post as I should have been.
The issues he has with his abusiveness have been resolved. It was never physical or sexual. It was mainly him trying to control me and fights would ensue because I never allowed it. This only really started when we had kids. He did have anger issues pre engagement/marriage but he did seek help and that wasn't completely resolved until our first seperation. I think in hindsight we/he did not get the right support or advice from counsellors we saw. It wasnt until we seperated that we saw an amazing counsellor that he developed a great rapport with and she was able to support us throughout the process in a way that really helped.
The alcohol (other than that xmas party, he has not been drunk nor has it caused an issue for us since 2018 when we first seperated. This is the first time gambling has been an issue in nearly ten years.
I appreciate upon reading it again, that it seems like I am in a terrible situation but I have always felt that it was able to be fixed. However this time around I am very conscious of what I can and cannot do. trying to detach has really helped.
[/quote]
Hi Michka,
It sounds like you married a bad boy (abuse, gambling, alcohol, drug-user) and expected him to change. I’m kinda with Scout that it’s probably be better for you and the kids to find a healthy partner and limit his custody/involvement with the children to 50% or less if his behavior and local laws allow for it.
If you read my other replies, I feel that I did not articulate them well. Not quite the bad boy and I have never been concerned with his ability to father or his relationship with his children.
I was fuming to say the least, the lying, the carelessness with the business funds, it was such a betrayal to me. I felt a little broken after it to be honest and told him if anything major was to happen or we fell into the same path I would just leave. I asked him to do whatever he thought he could/would be willing to do in order to restore my trust in him.
You took it very personally that a man addicted to gambling.. gambled. I think part of your work—reconciling or not—will be accepting who he is. A scorpion stings, as Aesop’s fable tells us, even if he doesn’t want to. I’ve known people more or less happily married to a gambler or an a alcoholic. I think if you want a successful relationship, he can’t feel you’re going to treat it as a personal betrayal and/or leave every time he slips. He will slip up.
This is something which I am slowly starting to appreciate. If and I know its a big if, we stay together, I may have to accept this. I guess the problem for me is I have huge issues with it having had a family member suicide from gambling as well as my father being the "spender" in my parents relationship. Financial security is important to me.
Four whammies (abuse, alcohol, gambling, drugs) seems like too many for a partner. Abuse alone is too many. From a “good of the kids” perspective, I suspect they’d be better off growing up with the story “We left your father because he was an abusive drunk” than “I kept an abusive drunk in your life so you could have both parents.” If you divorce, and work on yourself, you may even be able to show them healthy step-parents.
He has never been drunk in front of the kids ( he would generally get drunk outside of the house, come home and we would fight. But this has only occured once since 2018), nor has been anything less than a great dad. Not perfect, but I have never been concerned about it. Our issues have always been between us and they have for the most part been shielded from this.
Should i continue to sleep with him?
The easiest question—if you’re enjoying it, and no expectations, why not? Play safe if you’re unsure about OW. It’s okay to sleep with the bad boy (or crazy sexy lady). Just don’t bring them home.
I have been, to be honest it has taken him by surprise and I think has greatly contributed to the pleasentness between us.
I am taking the approach of the less said the better
This is usually true. Words fueled by feelings, words they already know, words that apply pressure are usually best unsaid. “Hi!” is okay!
Its been SO hard for me but the benefits occured almost instantly so I have been greatly motivated to continue.
am concerned that he is misusing business funds and has twice now deliberately sold some cryptocurrency we had despite me asking him not to. Do i leave this for now? I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Boundaries should protect you, NOT try to control him. If you’re unsure about the lawyers opinion in terms of assets, ethics requirements, or business evaluation seek a second official opinion. Sometimes people talk to a friend whose specialty is different and that’s not enough. Consider also getting an accountant to assess your assets to ensure you aren’t missing other funds. The laws in my state in the US are likely very different than where you are so I completely defer to local legal/financial pros.
I think this is best definition of what a boundary is. I have spoken to our accountant (she is my friend so I have her support. My lawyer does specialise in businesses so I am happy with his advice and I have contacted the banks to ensure no large withdrawals can take place without my permission.
Here are my questions
1. We are seperated but living together, he is sleeping on the couch. He wanted to leave the house but I am concerned about the children, they still remember the first time we seperated and occasionally discuss how much it hurt them. I asked him to stay and he at first reluctantly agreed but now is happy to.
Should I keep him at home or in the interests of speeding this along ask him to leave in order to LRT more effectively?
I find that most LBSs, and especially LBWs, that want to do IHS for the "kids" are actually doing it deep down for themselves. Be honest with yourself about this. Are you really wanting him there for the kids or for you? Also, doing things for the sake of the kids is rarely the best thing to do. Right now what your kids are being taught about relationships is that it is okay for married people to be cold, distant and sleep separately. Oh except when they want some nookie. As my favorite bald Texan TV psychologist says: "Kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home."
Asking him to leave would send a strong message that you aren't settling for half a husband.
2. Should i continue to sleep with him? He has made it clear that his attraction is purely physical and nothing else. We are very compatible sexually. I have read on the forums here for a WAH that sexual/physical attraction is important. But I am not sure if he is cake eating or if I am being a doormat. Sex was an issue pre BD as I was always too tired when he initiated it. I am not feeling the same now as I have had some health issues rectified.
So this guy gets to act and behave anyway he wants, act like a single guy....but then come get into your bed and have his way with your body? THIS IS CAKE EATING. Completely and totally. It sounds like deep down (be honest) that you are using sex to try to get him to recommit. Your brain says you know it is just sex and physical, but deep down your heart thinks that a way to a man's heart is through sex.
This is up to you, but you have to decide if you want him in 100%, in 50% or not at all. Because what he is doing irght now is living a single life with the benefits of being married. That is a man's dream! But it will not get you to reconciliation.
3. He is only minimally contributing to household chores/taking care of the children. However, he does keep telling me if i want to do something or take out some time to myself that he is more than happy to take the kids. Should i take him up on his offer and insist we have a plan for the week so we both do our fair share? This was an area of conflict pre BD as I felt he wasn't contributing equally. My motivation for doing this is so I can GAL more effectively and in the interests of showing him how much worse off he is as this will eat into his current bachelor style life he is leading.
So he has free child care, a maid, and a sex slave. (See my point above about a man's dream!)
Get a childcare plan in in place. Stop doing his laundry. Let him be on his own for meals. Stop the sex. Take away his cake. When he gets angry, upset, belligerent, etc, calmly tell him that you refuse to be in a MR with someone with one foot in and one foot out.
4. Finances. He is a spender and I am saver and this has been an issue since we first met. My savings and assets have been used for us to be in the position we are currently in. However, i am concerned because should he leave the home, I will not be able to afford running the household expenses on my own. Should i request we create a budget ( we tried to pre BD however he never committed to it). Again, my motivation in doing so is to show him how much worse off we all would be should we actually divorce.
Drop that last reason. The reason that you get a financial plan is place it to protect yourself and your kids. If you get a D, he will be on the hook for support for a long time. He knows this. This is exactly why a lot of WAHs in particular drag their feet on D. Have you talked to a lawyer? I would highly suggest talking to one. You can usually get a free consult, but regardless there are legalities to all of this and you need a legal expert.
5. Mental health. He was never formally diagnosed but I have long believed he suffered from depression or some sort of issue. His current behaviour aligns with the descriptions on here of having a MLC. Lost weight, has a fitness regime, better dressed, was going to buy a new car, all about enjoying the now and getting out there and having fun. I don't think he is having an affair but again who knows?
Does my thoughts on this change my approach or is LRT and GALing enough.
No this changes do nothing you should be doing. MLC, new outlook on life, new woman in his life, your goal is the same: prepare for the worst (hope for the best), GAL, 180 (get yourself into IC, you have no control over him but you do over you!), and work on detachment! You need to get to a place emotionally where nothing he says or does causes you to have an emotional reaction. It take time and effort to get there.
6. Finally I am taking the approach of the less said the better, I am not arguing with him or engaging with him in conflict. When things get "testy" between us because he is one of his moods I deny any face to face contact until he stops. he can only TM at those times. That seems to be working.
However, I am concerned that he is misusing business funds and has twice now deliberately sold some cryptocurrency we had despite me asking him not to. Do i leave this for now? How do I go setting boundaries with him? Should I be setting boundaries or should I simply be standing back, detaching and worrying about myself? I have read some posts on here and I am confused. I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Get a lawyer. Financial concerns are legal concerns. Don't get advice, get representation (see my comments above). Oh so you have a lawyer, good. Assume you are going to D, and make sure you are legally covered.
Michka, I can tell that you desperately want to save this. He knows that. Your best path forward is to embrace that you two are splitting up and act accordingly. Everything you are doing is to save the MR, and he sees that. He has you right where he wants you. Desperation is as attractive as pig rolling in the mire. Stop being deperate and start moving forward. He will either move with you, or he won't, you have no control over that.
Sorry you are dealing with all of this, but your best path forward is to stop trying to save the MR. Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61873&Number=2824328#Post2824328Take all your focus off of him and put it onto you.
Here are my questions
1. We are seperated but living together, he is sleeping on the couch. He wanted to leave the house but I am concerned about the children, they still remember the first time we seperated and occasionally discuss how much it hurt them. I asked him to stay and he at first reluctantly agreed but now is happy to.
Should I keep him at home or in the interests of speeding this along ask him to leave in order to LRT more effectively?
I find that most LBSs, and especially LBWs, that want to do IHS for the "kids" are actually doing it deep down for themselves. Be honest with yourself about this. Are you really wanting him there for the kids or for you? Also, doing things for the sake of the kids is rarely the best thing to do. Right now what your kids are being taught about relationships is that it is okay for married people to be cold, distant and sleep separately. Oh except when they want some nookie. As my favorite bald Texan TV psychologist says: "Kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home."
Asking him to leave would send a strong message that you aren't settling for half a husband.
2. Should i continue to sleep with him? He has made it clear that his attraction is purely physical and nothing else. We are very compatible sexually. I have read on the forums here for a WAH that sexual/physical attraction is important. But I am not sure if he is cake eating or if I am being a doormat. Sex was an issue pre BD as I was always too tired when he initiated it. I am not feeling the same now as I have had some health issues rectified.
So this guy gets to act and behave anyway he wants, act like a single guy....but then come get into your bed and have his way with your body? THIS IS CAKE EATING. Completely and totally. It sounds like deep down (be honest) that you are using sex to try to get him to recommit. Your brain says you know it is just sex and physical, but deep down your heart thinks that a way to a man's heart is through sex.
This is up to you, but you have to decide if you want him in 100%, in 50% or not at all. Because what he is doing irght now is living a single life with the benefits of being married. That is a man's dream! But it will not get you to reconciliation.
3. He is only minimally contributing to household chores/taking care of the children. However, he does keep telling me if i want to do something or take out some time to myself that he is more than happy to take the kids. Should i take him up on his offer and insist we have a plan for the week so we both do our fair share? This was an area of conflict pre BD as I felt he wasn't contributing equally. My motivation for doing this is so I can GAL more effectively and in the interests of showing him how much worse off he is as this will eat into his current bachelor style life he is leading.
So he has free child care, a maid, and a sex slave. (See my point above about a man's dream!)
Get a childcare plan in in place. Stop doing his laundry. Let him be on his own for meals. Stop the sex. Take away his cake. When he gets angry, upset, belligerent, etc, calmly tell him that you refuse to be in a MR with someone with one foot in and one foot out.
4. Finances. He is a spender and I am saver and this has been an issue since we first met. My savings and assets have been used for us to be in the position we are currently in. However, i am concerned because should he leave the home, I will not be able to afford running the household expenses on my own. Should i request we create a budget ( we tried to pre BD however he never committed to it). Again, my motivation in doing so is to show him how much worse off we all would be should we actually divorce.
Drop that last reason. The reason that you get a financial plan is place it to protect yourself and your kids. If you get a D, he will be on the hook for support for a long time. He knows this. This is exactly why a lot of WAHs in particular drag their feet on D. Have you talked to a lawyer? I would highly suggest talking to one. You can usually get a free consult, but regardless there are legalities to all of this and you need a legal expert.
5. Mental health. He was never formally diagnosed but I have long believed he suffered from depression or some sort of issue. His current behaviour aligns with the descriptions on here of having a MLC. Lost weight, has a fitness regime, better dressed, was going to buy a new car, all about enjoying the now and getting out there and having fun. I don't think he is having an affair but again who knows?
Does my thoughts on this change my approach or is LRT and GALing enough.
No this changes do nothing you should be doing. MLC, new outlook on life, new woman in his life, your goal is the same: prepare for the worst (hope for the best), GAL, 180 (get yourself into IC, you have no control over him but you do over you!), and work on detachment! You need to get to a place emotionally where nothing he says or does causes you to have an emotional reaction. It take time and effort to get there.
6. Finally I am taking the approach of the less said the better, I am not arguing with him or engaging with him in conflict. When things get "testy" between us because he is one of his moods I deny any face to face contact until he stops. he can only TM at those times. That seems to be working.
However, I am concerned that he is misusing business funds and has twice now deliberately sold some cryptocurrency we had despite me asking him not to. Do i leave this for now? How do I go setting boundaries with him? Should I be setting boundaries or should I simply be standing back, detaching and worrying about myself? I have read some posts on here and I am confused. I have sort out legal advice regarding the business as it is in both of our names but my lawyer assured me that anything he does will only impact him.
Get a lawyer. Financial concerns are legal concerns. Don't get advice, get representation (see my comments above). Oh so you have a lawyer, good. Assume you are going to D, and make sure you are legally covered.
Michka, I can tell that you desperately want to save this. He knows that. Your best path forward is to embrace that you two are splitting up and act accordingly. Everything you are doing is to save the MR, and he sees that. He has you right where he wants you. Desperation is as attractive as pig rolling in the mire. Stop being deperate and start moving forward. He will either move with you, or he won't, you have no control over that.
Sorry you are dealing with all of this, but your best path forward is to stop trying to save the MR. Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61873&Number=2824328#Post2824328Take all your focus off of him and put it onto you.
Steve,
Thank you for your post. It both resonated with me and confused me.
1. If he leaves, it will really impact the children and unless we are actually divorcing its simply something I am not willing to do. Yes, I want to reconcile, its why I am here. I truly believe that if he was to leave currently, it would probably be the fastest way to reconcile, especially based off what you are saying. But at what cost? I am not going to put my children through this unless its actually happening, if that makes sense. Right now is not ideal for them, but I see it as being the lesser of two evils.
2. Sex - surprisingly he has requested to back off. It makes him feel guilty and confused apparently, I have happily withdrawn from this. BUT i am confused by the advice I have received around it. MWD has on some posts encouraged sex while seperated and previous to BD I guess you would define the marriage as SSM. Not sure how to define it then... is it cake eating? or would you consider this to be a 180?
3. Domestic Duties - I did nothing for him except the sex. He did his own laundry, meals and makes breakfast for the family (toast and coffee) and this was his main contribution. I have raised this with him and he has agreed to a schedule of duties to divide the housework more evenly. Would this be considered taking his cake? He has thus far (two days worth) been sticking to it.
4. Finances - we are splitting finances for now, I will see how this goes. I also told him I will be getting a part time job (sat only) on top of my current full time job. He was very taken aback by this.
5. Getting better at detaching. I have also been actively planning my house renovations which is why I need the second job. This is something which I am very excited about and have told him he isn't part of it. Told him (earlier) that since he is leaving he has no say. He keeps wanting to get involved but I am standing my ground.
6. I am legally covered. Seperating our finances will also help me stress less about all this.
SteveLH,
I do want to reconcile. I do want it all. He also knows this is true. I have, however, been acting "as if" I will comply easily with this request to divorce but have stated to him that I wont lift a finger to do anything about it. He is has not done anything either.
Desperate is not the word I would use to describe how I appear in front of him. He likes to use the word "hard a$$" when I have a challenge as I dont like to give up.
Thank you again for your time and insight into my stitch.
So an update to my stitch.
We seemed to have a false positive. I was trying my hardest to GAL/180. Seemed to be responding to my sudden charge in attitude. Perhaps lasted two weeks before he told he wanted to try but was unsure. This concerned me as everyone on here has warned about this. So I asked him to lets try and be nice to each other for a week and chat at the end of the week.
Well S$%& hit the fan that week. We were fine (so it seemed) mon to thurs. All i asked him was to be civil to me and vice versa. Friday morning he woke up in a foul mood and the day just descended into chaos. By the end of the day he was adament he was moving out in two weeks.
I asked that he do the following before moving out
1. Create a budget dividing financial responsbility
2. Create a parenting schedule
3. Tell the kids
The budget was his biggest concern as he kept mentioning he would need cash in order to purchase furniture etc for the apartment (he was moving into our investment property one suburb away)
I was trying to be as civil and polite as I could but I did tell him I would only discuss it once we established each others financial responsbilities. This was really important to me because of his gambling.
We also split some investment money we had (by agreement).
Well he wasnt happy it seemed that I expected him to do any work for his move.... by friday the following week his contempt for me was simmering under the surface. Friday (this seems to be a bad day for us) morning comes around and again he asks about buying furniture. I again reminded him of our agreement and the fact he had not done the budget.
He exploded, threatened me with my life, (this was all verbal at no point did he touch me) and took my share of the investment money (its all on apps on his phone so it took him literally a few minutes while he was in the bathroom - it was about 20k) and left.
I was shaking. I had been trying so hard to act "as if" stay positive etc, but he just lost it that morning and so did i.
I decided to file a statement with the police. They decided to take it further than I intended and had him arrested at his office in front of his clients. A very sobering experience for him by all accounts.
I had the locks changed and asked some family to stay the night.
He has now moved out officially. He has set up the apartment for himself and future visits from the children. We speak and see each other when he visits the kids and our exchanges are either very tense or indifferent until today. He kept telling me how much he wants to "help" me with the kids and the house. I detest that word "help". I suggested that we would benefit from family counselling as well as counselling for us.
This literally has happened over a span of two weeks.
I have been speaking to a DB coach over the phone and just trying to get through it all. I have again met with a lawyer and am ready to file if I need to. However, his advice was surprisingly similiar to what you have all been telling me and things I have read. He asked me to wait, consider my position and only file when there is no other options. He asked that I go through this on my own two feet with professional help as family can often make things worse. Financially he has reassured me that I will be fine based on the numbers we went through. He also said to simply detach (i nearly asked if he had been reading these forums/MWD books) and focus on myself and the children.
I feel at the moment surprisingly calm (mostly). Not sure what that means but between praying and reading all your advice I feel like I will be ok no matter. Just like the WAS has to hit a rock bottom of sorts its almost like I did too. I mean what else can he do?
The children have been really struggling, I made it clear to them that this was their fathers decision as he "had a change of heart as to how he feels about me" but tried to be as positive as possible. Just trying to reinforce that they are still loved and we are still their family.
My question now is how do I stay on track? How do I best support my children? How I stop myself from saying/doing something I will regret? He has a a tendency of rewriting history to his benefit - I have a tendency of quickly correcting him and pointing out he is wrong. What do I do?
Omg that sounds absolutely horrible.
I feel so much for you Michka. You must be struggling to cope!
You don’t need to make a point to your children that this was his decision. I too felt that incredible pressure that my children knew my wife was blowing up our family and that I was the one honouring my vows.
But it does more harm than good. Your children will work it out themselves eventually, and normally this naturally occurs at an age where they are more equiped to deal with it. Secondly, I assume you still want them to have a good relationship with their father - these sorts of discussions can undermine this. Kids will always love both their parents no matter what - you’ll strengthen your relationship with your kids more by upholding your H than demeaning him.
It will get worse before it gets better, and it’s going to be a tough year or two for you. But based on him verbally threatening your life, you need to get out of this relationship now.
Keep posting. Lots of hugs!
Michka,
So sorry to hear about the latest developments. I cannot in good conscience encourage you to fix this relationship.
Get out while you can. Work on identifying the reasons why you would want to stay with someone like this, and heal. And then find someone who isn't an addict or abusive.
Thornton
He also said to simply detach (i nearly asked if he had been reading these forums/MWD books) and focus on myself and the children.
Yes, do this!
Just like the WAS has to hit a rock bottom of sorts its almost like I did too. I mean what else can he do?
Well, quite a bit. Kill or hurt you or the kids for one. In a lot instances, the buildup to physical aggression happens in multiple steps. If you aren't familiar with the signs, it may be confusing.
Get help, use the help, get through this. Be very reasonable.
I'm not sure if there are other aspects you'd rather not share here, but I am concerned about everything you have posted. What do your family and friends say?
Sounds like you did the right thing Michka. I, like others on here, am concerned about your H verbally threatening your life as well as the addictive behaviour. As much of an A$$hole as my XH was, he never, ever threatened my life nor would he. That’s a whole other level of messed up that you need to pay attention to. It is good you have met with your lawyer and he thinks you will be okay financially. That is something LBS can really struggle with if finances are a concern. It was definitely a blessing in my sitch that I was okay too. Also, give your H’s state of mind and his gambling issue, the sooner you separate your finances from his, the better - regardless of whether or not you want to reconcile.
Also agree with everyone’s advice about what to tell your kids. Daddy and Mommy are going through a hard time but we both love you very much, is all they need to know. My kids are 13 and starting to remember things from their perspective (being introduced to random women) and forming their own opinions. If they ask me something, I answer as honestly as I can without giving them more information than they need. At the end of the day, they love their dad and I am grateful for that. Kids need to feel free to love both their parents. If they don’t, it really messes with their emotions. In this situation, forgiveness isn’t just a gift you give to yourself, it is also a gift you give to your children.
Keep posting and coming here for support. I’ve been here for two and a half years and it has helped me immensely...even when people were telling me things I didn’t necessarily want to hear. (((HUGS)))
He also said to simply detach (i nearly asked if he had been reading these forums/MWD books) and focus on myself and the children.
Yes, do this!
Just like the WAS has to hit a rock bottom of sorts its almost like I did too. I mean what else can he do?
Well, quite a bit. Kill or hurt you or the kids for one. In a lot instances, the buildup to physical aggression happens in multiple steps. If you aren't familiar with the signs, it may be confusing.
Get help, use the help, get through this. Be very reasonable.
I'm not sure if there are other aspects you'd rather not share here, but I am concerned about everything you have posted. What do your family and friends say?
The worse of what has happened I have posted on here. There have been no other issues or concerns. I am conscious of the fact that I am only posting the worst of him and this may create bias in the responses.
My family and friends want us to reconcile. They have always said we are such a great couple and we do well together. I have thought the same to be honest. I also feel the majority of his issues are a result of his mental health.
Sounds like you did the right thing Michka. I, like others on here, am concerned about your H verbally threatening your life as well as the addictive behaviour. As much of an A$$hole as my XH was, he never, ever threatened my life nor would he. That’s a whole other level of messed up that you need to pay attention to. It is good you have met with your lawyer and he thinks you will be okay financially. That is something LBS can really struggle with if finances are a concern. It was definitely a blessing in my sitch that I was okay too. Also, give your H’s state of mind and his gambling issue, the sooner you separate your finances from his, the better - regardless of whether or not you want to reconcile.
Also agree with everyone’s advice about what to tell your kids. Daddy and Mommy are going through a hard time but we both love you very much, is all they need to know. My kids are 13 and starting to remember things from their perspective (being introduced to random women) and forming their own opinions. If they ask me something, I answer as honestly as I can without giving them more information than they need. At the end of the day, they love their dad and I am grateful for that. Kids need to feel free to love both their parents. If they don’t, it really messes with their emotions. In this situation, forgiveness isn’t just a gift you give to yourself, it is also a gift you give to your children.
Keep posting and coming here for support. I’ve been here for two and a half years and it has helped me immensely...even when people were telling me things I didn’t necessarily want to hear. (((HUGS)))
DejaVu6 I took that approach with the children based off a MWD article i read on psychology today.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/divorce-busting/201505/kids-your-dad-wants-divorceI will speak to my DB coach and discuss if I can speak to them in a better way about it.
So it's been awhile but I am back.
I have been on quite the rollercoaster. I am currently seeking advice from a DB coach and this forum/books.
We have been up and down.
There has been no abuse or any sort of issues to that degree... just minor spewing as its called here.
I have been trying to GAL. its been hard with all the extra work I need to do at the moment being a single mum to three little ones.
But I have started renovations on my house which we always put off for various reasons. Just minor cosmetic stuff.
This seemed to pull him back in - a little and spoke of his sadness and regret over the marriage.
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
He even started telling me he wanted to reconcile and was being loving/affectionate etc. We were ML frequently.
But I think we fell into a pursuit/distance cycle. He would pull away again even when he was the one initiating the R talk and talk of reconciling. As of last night, he is again saying there is no use its over for him.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
My advice on the push and pull you're in right now is sit down and take a serious inventory of how long you and the kids can stay on this rollercoaster your H has you on. SteveLW like to tell people to think seriously about a drop dead date. At date at which you are no longer willing to ride this out and see what happens. Having that date gives you a small amount of control in a rather uncontrollable situation. It also gives you a light at the end of the tunnel. H gets his act together by X date or I will be the one to file. SteveLW's was a year from BD. Mine was a year from when H began his R with OW. Some people put down much shorter timelines because they can't emotionally handle the turmoil longer than that. Some of these crazy amazing MLC LBS hang on for years, but most of them have decades invested into their relationships. If I were married 20+ years maybe I would've picked out a longer drop dead date. Who knows? But it's a personal number and it's yours so you can chose to move that date forward or backward in time as you please. I know that it's helped a lot of people get a handle on how long they'll ride the crazy train for.
Along with that drop dead date, yes detach. Keep detaching it's a process. It's not a one and done kind of thing. And it sounds like you're pretty attached right now so definitely. Keep focusing on GAL and your 180s. Keep focusing on yourself and your kids. Even if you're choosing to "wait around" for H to figure out what it is he's actually doing here that doesn't mean you put everything else on hold. You can wait and see with H while going on with your life acting "as if" you already have a life that doesn't have him in it. Because technically you don't. H puts himself in your life when he feels like it. He's not there when you need or want him to be. He's there when he needs or wants to be. Sometime you just get lucky enough that those things over lap. Don't for get that. You may be sure about him but he's still very unsure about you and your MR. Keep living your life as if he's gone and by the time he makes up his mind you'll know if you really want him back or not.
I have a date… it’s Jan 2022.
That makes it a year.
What should I do or say when he brings up r talk or suggests he wants to reconcile?
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
You answered your own question:
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
As far as if he brings up reconciliation, you have what YOU require for that to happen.
Him: I am considering reconciliation.
You: In that case I have a list of requirements.
Him: Requirements?
You: Yes, things that will be necessary in order for me to be open to reconciling.
Him: What are they?
You: 1) Full transparency. We have each other's passwords to all social media, cellphones, email addresses, etc.
2) You get into IC and work through whatever issues are causing you to want out.
3) After 2 months, we also start MC together.
4) If you agree to these we are full in, no one week "I think I want to R" and then the next "I don't think it will work". If we do this we are all in, and if you start to hedge I pull the plug and we moved towards separation and D.
Michka, he is banking on you NOT wanting a D. When he realizes that you now have requirements or YOU will walk away it will really make him decide whether or not he wants to R or not. If he is using R to keep you as Plan B, it will become immediately apparent (he won't agree to the requirements). If he is serious about Ring he will be willing to move mountains to do so.
I have a date… it’s Jan 2022.
That makes it a year.
GREAT! Now, you have to stick to this. Lots of LBSs pick a date, then hedge as the time grows closer. Fear of separation and/or D will always work against you.
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
You answered your own question:
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
As far as if he brings up reconciliation, you have what YOU require for that to happen.
Him: I am considering reconciliation.
You: In that case I have a list of requirements.
Him: Requirements?
You: Yes, things that will be necessary in order for me to be open to reconciling.
Him: What are they?
You: 1) Full transparency. We have each other's passwords to all social media, cellphones, email addresses, etc.
2) You get into IC and work through whatever issues are causing you to want out.
3) After 2 months, we also start MC together.
4) If you agree to these we are full in, no one week "I think I want to R" and then the next "I don't think it will work". If we do this we are all in, and if you start to hedge I pull the plug and we moved towards separation and D.
Michka, he is banking on you NOT wanting a D. When he realizes that you now have requirements or YOU will walk away it will really make him decide whether or not he wants to R or not. If he is using R to keep you as Plan B, it will become immediately apparent (he won't agree to the requirements). If he is serious about Ring he will be willing to move mountains to do so.
Steve,
I just wanted to compare your take on reconciliation to my own and offer a slightly different, but still similar perspective.
I got to the point in my situation where I was too tired of everything to try to bother and track and look through phones and social media. I knew what it would feel like if there was cheating and I knew what it was like if there wasn't. I would rephrase it like "I need your commitment to ensuring that I won't feel distrust". It's going to take an effort to rebuild and if you don't have that energy then I will continue on my path.
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
You answered your own question:
I tried DB principals... validating, etc not always successfully. But it did seem to have a positive effect.
So my question is, what do I do now? Is it simply a matter of focusing on detachment again? What do I say or do when he brings up reconciling? I am pretty sure he will based on his behaviour of the last few months.
As far as if he brings up reconciliation, you have what YOU require for that to happen.
Him: I am considering reconciliation.
You: In that case I have a list of requirements.
Him: Requirements?
You: Yes, things that will be necessary in order for me to be open to reconciling.
Him: What are they?
You: 1) Full transparency. We have each other's passwords to all social media, cellphones, email addresses, etc.
2) You get into IC and work through whatever issues are causing you to want out.
3) After 2 months, we also start MC together.
4) If you agree to these we are full in, no one week "I think I want to R" and then the next "I don't think it will work". If we do this we are all in, and if you start to hedge I pull the plug and we moved towards separation and D.
Michka, he is banking on you NOT wanting a D. When he realizes that you now have requirements or YOU will walk away it will really make him decide whether or not he wants to R or not. If he is using R to keep you as Plan B, it will become immediately apparent (he won't agree to the requirements). If he is serious about Ring he will be willing to move mountains to do so.
Steve,
I just wanted to compare your take on reconciliation to my own and offer a slightly different, but still similar perspective.
I got to the point in my situation where I was too tired of everything to try to bother and track and look through phones and social media. I knew what it would feel like if there was cheating and I knew what it was like if there wasn't. I would rephrase it like "I need your commitment to ensuring that I won't feel distrust". It's going to take an effort to rebuild and if you don't have that energy then I will continue on my path.
Great point! And I think we all get there. I did the same in my reconciliation. However, initially that full transparency is a must to rebuilding that trust.
Remember, about a year and a half after my reconciliation I did check her email and found a guy was emailing her. For her part, she wasn't really engaging back with him. But he was smothering her with compliments. etc. I told her at the time exactly what you just state: I didn't have the energy nor the desire to have to keep tabs on her. And that I had no desire to remain with someone that I couldn't trust. So she could choose me or getting compliments from strangers on the internet. She chose the former and since that time (nearly 2 years later) she has fallen over herself to make sure I can trust her.
Great point, ovr.
Yeah I think I really need to detach better. I was for a short time I think but when he started to talk of reconciling and missing me. I think I should have waited longer perhaps? I dont know. The DB coach was recommending I turn towards him... to be "softer". I tried that but it seems it was a temporary fix on reflection.
I think in terms of standing I need to stand back a bit further. Space is something he hasn't had enough of. I feel he needs to work out his own issues before we can work on us.
I have read through your journey, you are inspiring to say the least WF!
Steve... the date is somewhat final.... I have a standing appointment with my lawyer to meet again to initiate divorce proceedings in Jan unless he hears otherwise.
We will see, right now he is in one of his "I hate the world and it's all your fault". I have informed him I will not be engaging with him. He has been temp checking with me but unless its to do with the kids or important I am not responding.
I feel that while I am not lovingly detaching from him, nor can I afford to engage with him in useless arguments.
It's amazing that a grown, intelligent man can be so bloody stupid. Is this common of WAS's?
Yeah I think I really need to detach better. I was for a short time I think but when he started to talk of reconciling and missing me. I think I should have waited longer perhaps? I dont know. The DB coach was recommending I turn towards him... to be "softer". I tried that but it seems it was a temporary fix on reflection.
I think in terms of standing I need to stand back a bit further. Space is something he hasn't had enough of. I feel he needs to work out his own issues before we can work on us.
I have read through your journey, you are inspiring to say the least WF!
Detachment is a process....not a destination. Just keep working at it. One thing that helped me so much was to study "self-differentiation in marriage". Differentiation is very similar to what we talk about here as being lovingly detached. At its root level it is about being happy and fulfilled regardless of what those around you are saying and doing. It is a very good place to be in life!
Being softer doesn't mean you stop DBing! So many LBSs think that DBing and then being available or there for your WAS are at odds. They are not. In my own sitch even though I was starting to really hit my stride on DBing principles, I still was open to helping her. I tell the story all the time of when she came to me wanting help with her resume and wanted to buy interviewing books. (Remember, she wanted to get a job, get an apartment and get a D!) I told her I was willing to help, and that she could buy whatever she wanted that she thought she needed. Was that soft towards her? You betcha. But it was also a 180 for me, and it was being lovingly detached. I approached it as if I was helping a friend with their job search.
Steve... the date is somewhat final.... I have a standing appointment with my lawyer to meet again to initiate divorce proceedings in Jan unless he hears otherwise.
We will see, right now he is in one of his "I hate the world and it's all your fault". I have informed him I will not be engaging with him. He has been temp checking with me but unless its to do with the kids or important I am not responding.
I feel that while I am not lovingly detaching from him, nor can I afford to engage with him in useless arguments.
It's amazing that a grown, intelligent man can be so bloody stupid. Is this common of WAS's?
WASs, and WSs in particular run on pure emotion. Logic and intelligence go out the window in favor of feeling and want. In my sitch my W, even though we have a child, thought we could get a quicky, lawyerless $400 online D. When I told her that was not possible in our state with a child involved, she didn't believe me. Snooping later I saw she had looked up D procedures in our state. And it was a long, drawn out process when kids were involved. Her delusional quick and easy D bubble was burst. She never really brought up D after that. She still wanted out but the process took too much brain power now that she knew the quick route was not an option. This is typical WAS/WS behavior! They are like electricity, always looking for the path of least resistance!
Steve i find the walking down the right tight rope for me really hard... I know my relationship with H has in the past really benefitted from a tough love approach. Thats what happened when we first BD which was actually initiated by me. He still speaks of how "amazing" i was because I took over all our affairs and just did what I thought was best for me and the children at the time. It seemed that bought him out of his fog real quick and he was more then willing to do reconcile, do IC and MC and anything else I wanted...
This time has been different and I have tried the more softly softly approach as encouraged by my DB coach and my IC which I was seeing earlier, it seems to have worked to a point. We will see how it goes from here.
I have read about self-differentiation in marriage and that was what prompted me to start the reno. Its something I have always wanted to do and really excites me. I have new furniture coming in, new flooring and a whole heap of painting to do. But I cant wait as its going to really look good once completed and then I can entertain as I wish come the summer.
Im quite the cook and cant wait to get the BBQ out and chill by the pool with family and friends.
Steve i find the walking down the right tight rope for me really hard... I know my relationship with H has in the past really benefitted from a tough love approach. Thats what happened when we first BD which was actually initiated by me. He still speaks of how "amazing" i was because I took over all our affairs and just did what I thought was best for me and the children at the time. It seemed that bought him out of his fog real quick and he was more then willing to do reconcile, do IC and MC and anything else I wanted...
This time has been different and I have tried the more softly softly approach as encouraged by my DB coach and my IC which I was seeing earlier, it seems to have worked to a point. We will see how it goes from here.
I have read about self-differentiation in marriage and that was what prompted me to start the reno. Its something I have always wanted to do and really excites me. I have new furniture coming in, new flooring and a whole heap of painting to do. But I cant wait as its going to really look good once completed and then I can entertain as I wish come the summer.
Im quite the cook and cant wait to get the BBQ out and chill by the pool with family and friends.
Good stuff. Just wanted to make sure you knew that DBing and being soft are compatible, not contradictory. You can be soft AND DB well. I think I did that fairly well in my own sitch. I was very soft, but I still followed sandi's rules pretty well and got better as our sitch progressed.
Just a vent, hope everyone is well.
So he did it again, he wants to reconcile.
WITH AN ADDED TWIST!
So he has been spewing the last week, and i have been trying my hardest to detach, albeit lovingly. Working on listening and validating.
Examples like...
H: I really cant see us getting back together, it's gone too far.
M: Thank you for sharing your feelings with me
OR
H: Hopefully one day we can work it out, for now you win. (a TM he sent after he was visiting the kids and decided he didn't like my response to a question...)
M: Sounds like things are challenging for you right now and I am sorry you feel that way.
H: Don t feel sorry for me! I feel sorry for you!
M: "No response"
Anyway, he wanted to "chat" today. About everything and nothing and fired a million questions at me, again I was listening/validating but avoiding answering directly any questions about divorce and what I wanted in terms of finances.
He became angry and I stood up and walked away... he asked where I was going and I replied he speaks to me calmly with respect or he dosen't speak to me. He calmed down and asked if I would continue chatting. I told him he knew the score and he agreed to being calm.
He then started crying, but blaming me for his woes and feelings.
I validated him and not sure if this was right or wrong - hugged him.
He then started talking to me about how I can be so sure about what I want (ie reconciling) when so much has happened.
I replied that it was simply how I felt/what I wanted. But I would fine with whatever happened because I can handle it. I will make the most of whatever comes my way.
He then starting turning towards me, telling me he loves me but is so hurt by everything.
We had a little chat, essentially I told him his actions have consequences good or bad. I didn't break him and I cant fix him, also if really loves me - its all of me, the bits he likes and the bits he dosen't. Not just until he decides he cant do it.
He spoke of loving me but i replied that i wanted commitment right now. Commitment to the process of reconciling, which included IC and MC and.... (this was new information I learnt last week) the married woman he was speaking to and had "feelings" for being cut out of his life.
And thats where he stopped, claimed she was a great support to him during a tough time, he was reluctant to cut her out, especially if things didn't work out between us because he was scared he would become suicidal again and she was the only one who could help him.
This was really hard for me. He understood my position but wished I understood his. I was clear and calm, she goes, there is NC, full transperency, committed to IC/MC or its not going to happen.
He agreed to it, but appeared to be really torn? hurt? confused? with cutting her off.
Now this is what I am worried about it.
What happens from here? I understand moving slowly, I understanding taking it easy, I understand he is not going to come around after one discussion to become the poster child of husbands. But how do I navigate these next steps without it blowing up in my face?
I am fully aware it can, almost even expecting it to or perhaps a better way to phrase it not caring if it does.
I guess it's all about his actions. Im concerned that this dance of back and forth keeps happening but I can see how I contributed to it by moving too quickly.
I for one, will be continuing my one week of 180's/GAL/validating and listening. If I can get to two, I will be a happy lass.
I also have a bunch of furniture that arrived which needs to be set up and a kitchen to paint.
Hi M,
What happens from here? I understand moving slowly, I understanding taking it easy, I understand he is not going to come around after one discussion to become the poster child of husbands. But how do I navigate these next steps without it blowing up in my face?
I am fully aware it can, almost even expecting it to or perhaps a better way to phrase it not caring if it does.
This is great-- if you truly do feel this way, not really caring that much one way or another if it blows up again-- it sounds like you're moving forward in detaching.
DO NOT STOP DB-ing. Just keep it up. It is very likely that this back and forth will continue and you just have to not contribute to it by staying the course, focusing on yourself, GAL, avoiding R talks, etc. I am going to guess that he will probably *not* cut off the OW, based on what you shared of the conversation. I wouldn't demand proof or anything, or even bring it up again. if he says again he wants to R, then great-- repeat yourself, you need to recommit to the M which includes IC, MC, and NC with the OW. He's a big boy. If he wants to do these things, he will take obvious steps towards doing so and want to prove it to you that he's done with OW. If he waffles, you have your timeline where you're outta there by January.
It sounded like he has a lot of issues that he'll need to really commit himself to working on for him to be the kind of H you want, right? Are you still doing all the laundry and kid chores? (Ha, to me that would be another requirement of reconciliation-- an equal partner in the house!)
Hang in there,
May
Hi May
Thanks for replying. Im interested in why you think I should'nt bring her up again? How do you see that being beneficial?
Just curious.
Yes he does have alot of issues which is what I believe led to this how seperation and the issues we had previously. This was a point I drove when we had a talk. He needs to find that peace/happiness whatever you call it.
Even at a basic level, his physical health is concerning. He really struggles with his sleep and pre BD he was lucky if he got 4 hours sleep a night. From what he says it's not any better at the moment. I think it contributed to this seperation because how can you be a happy man if you are constantly sleep deprived? Its just one example.
He is here tonight bathing the kids. Its a little different, he seems like he cant get enough of me which is different to other times, I think the pursuit/distance dance is very much the type of relationship games we have been playing. Which I think works perfectly in my favour right now because it supports the potential reunification as well as assisting me in detaching.
But I will be taking the stockdale approach here, one day at a time. Grateful for each day I get, not expecting anything from tomorrow.
Just a vent, hope everyone is well.
So he did it again, he wants to reconcile.
WITH AN ADDED TWIST!
So he has been spewing the last week, and i have been trying my hardest to detach, albeit lovingly. Working on listening and validating.
Examples like...
H: I really cant see us getting back together, it's gone too far.
M: Thank you for sharing your feelings with me
OR
H: Hopefully one day we can work it out, for now you win. (a TM he sent after he was visiting the kids and decided he didn't like my response to a question...)
M: Sounds like things are challenging for you right now and I am sorry you feel that way.
H: Don t feel sorry for me! I feel sorry for you!
M: "No response"
Anyway, he wanted to "chat" today. About everything and nothing and fired a million questions at me, again I was listening/validating but avoiding answering directly any questions about divorce and what I wanted in terms of finances.
He became angry and I stood up and walked away... he asked where I was going and I replied he speaks to me calmly with respect or he dosen't speak to me. He calmed down and asked if I would continue chatting. I told him he knew the score and he agreed to being calm.
He then started crying, but blaming me for his woes and feelings.
I validated him and not sure if this was right or wrong - hugged him.
He then started talking to me about how I can be so sure about what I want (ie reconciling) when so much has happened.
I replied that it was simply how I felt/what I wanted. But I would fine with whatever happened because I can handle it. I will make the most of whatever comes my way.
He then starting turning towards me, telling me he loves me but is so hurt by everything.
We had a little chat, essentially I told him his actions have consequences good or bad. I didn't break him and I cant fix him, also if really loves me - its all of me, the bits he likes and the bits he dosen't. Not just until he decides he cant do it.
He spoke of loving me but i replied that i wanted commitment right now. Commitment to the process of reconciling, which included IC and MC and.... (this was new information I learnt last week) the married woman he was speaking to and had "feelings" for being cut out of his life.
And thats where he stopped, claimed she was a great support to him during a tough time, he was reluctant to cut her out, especially if things didn't work out between us because he was scared he would become suicidal again and she was the only one who could help him.
This was really hard for me. He understood my position but wished I understood his. I was clear and calm, she goes, there is NC, full transperency, committed to IC/MC or its not going to happen.
He agreed to it, but appeared to be really torn? hurt? confused? with cutting her off.
Now this is what I am worried about it.
What happens from here? I understand moving slowly, I understanding taking it easy, I understand he is not going to come around after one discussion to become the poster child of husbands. But how do I navigate these next steps without it blowing up in my face?
I am fully aware it can, almost even expecting it to or perhaps a better way to phrase it not caring if it does.
I guess it's all about his actions. Im concerned that this dance of back and forth keeps happening but I can see how I contributed to it by moving too quickly.
I for one, will be continuing my one week of 180's/GAL/validating and listening. If I can get to two, I will be a happy lass.
I also have a bunch of furniture that arrived which needs to be set up and a kitchen to paint.
First, Michka, please proceed with caution. There are lots of reasons why WASs lie about Ring. Most of the time it is because Plan A, OP, isn't solid yet. We used to have a saying around here: A monkey doesn't jump from the branch it is on until it identifies another branch that can support it. Lots of posters here have had false starts with R, and most of the time it is because they stop DBing once their LBS expresses interest in R.
Likely the loss of control over you is what is bringing this on. In my own sitch when I started DBing well, my W felt like she was losing me and suddenly started behaving like she wanted to be my W again. However, if I asked her directly, she'd always fall back to she wanted a D.
I am glad to hear you sticking to your requirements: "she goes, there is NC, full transperency, committed to IC/MC or its not going to happen. "
Do not back off of that. It will make you look weak and it will tell him that R to you is paramount to anything else he does. This will work against you. He is talking R because now he feels like you are moving forward without him. The minute you make him feel like you will R at all costs again, he will go back to where he was at before.
What happens here? You keep DBing! If he truly wants to R he will move mountains to do so, there will be no question. We have a saying around here: When they want to R you will know, when they don't you will be confused.
So how you navigate is to just keep on DBing. Don't stop what got you here. So many LBSs here "I want to R" and go all hog back into what they were doing before DBing. DBing got you here, DBing will be the thing that most likely will keep you where you are now.
I do have to say, it is a huge red flag that he brought up the OW and not wanting to remove her from his life. The fact that he even said that to you shows to me a lack of respect for you, and it may...MAY indicate that he is just buying time.
In short, continue DBing, and adhering to good DB principles: Do not start R talks. Keep GAL. Keep working on your own improvements, learn how to be properly and lovingly detached. Focus off of him and onto you. Sandi's rules. Etc.
WASs are like a cat. If you sit still and quiet and ignore them, they may come and jump up in your lap. The minute you get over exuberant, excited and reach out to them they will run the other way.
SteveLW I like the cat analogy.
Yes his reaction to the OW was a huge red flag. I will be watching that closely.
I don't like the Plan A... B C...etc. I should be the only plan or no plan at all. I say that because I feel you are either fully committed or your not. So I will stand back and stand strong while we navigate these new waters we find ourselves in, until I see the actions match the words and promises he gave.
SteveLW I like the cat analogy.
Yes his reaction to the OW was a huge red flag. I will be watching that closely.
I don't like the Plan A... B C...etc. I should be the only plan or no plan at all. I say that because I feel you are either fully committed or your not. So I will stand back and stand strong while we navigate these new waters we find ourselves in, until I see the actions match the words and promises he gave.
I agree with you on being the only plan. That attitude will serve you well. We often are asked "when will I know they are truly fully committed back to the MR." The answer is: When their actions are consistent over a long period of time. Think 6 months+.
Thanks for replying. Im interested in why you think I should'nt bring her up again? How do you see that being beneficial?
Just curious.
Because it won't do any good. Asking if he's cut off contact yet just comes across as pursuit. And BTW, it needs to be 100% NC, he has a clear conversation with her that he is working on his marriage and will not be talking to her ever again, blocks all forms of contact and has a plan with you for what will happen if she reaches out to him (said plan should be-- I will let you know immediately and will not respond).
He's either going to ditch her (in which case he'll want to tell you about it) or he won't and you'll know because you won't hear anything from him about it. His behavior is all outside of your control. If he brings up again that he wants to R, then you can inquire about how he's coming along cutting off all contact with AP and how he's going to demonstrate that to you in a way you will believe. Otherwise, just assume he's still talking to her and behave accordingly.
May,
Good plan, I will follow that through and see how it goes.
Hope all is well in your world.
So it took about three days before he decided it was a mistake "trying to get close to me again".
It was to do with his lack of effort with the kids presently. He visits daily or so but has nothing to do with actual parenting.
So i asked him to organise some type of routine, we are in lockdown currently and I cannot access my usual support. I wanted him to take the kids for a few hours in the evening each second day so I can get ahead on my work. That blew up. Absolutely refused since he has a "business to run". He cannot possibly take the kids and organise dinner etc.
So i said thank you and goodbye.
I feel like he is part way between a Mexican Standoff and pretending it's all ok. I am just detaching as much as possible. It's been hard to GAL when there isn't much we can do, but I have organised my new furniture that came, created a study nook so the kids and I can do our work together and currently looking at some time of exercise program that I can do with the kids. Lockdown has not helped the waistlines.
My two biggest issues are the kids and boundaries.
1. Kids
Very receptive to his moods, lockdown and just everything else currently happening. My S6 keeps telling me he is unhappy but dosent know why. My S8 has regressed with his sleeping and schoolwork. Constantly needs me for everything. The S2 is just attached to me as per usual. But I am really worried about the older two.
I dont know if its just because of everything that is happening and it will pass with time or should I be organising counselling for them?
2. Boundaries.
It seems to be the same as before, the more I distance or detach the more he is obnoxious or just negatively seeking my attention. It's generally little things and comments. Like... you spent a lot of money on groceries.... or why so much food for (S8 birthday lunch) lunch? no one wants it (there was single plate of leftovers). Currently, my tactic is I smile and reply innocently...I am not sure what you mean?
Should I be saying something or keep my current strategy?
1. You cannot control his actions. Unfortunately, it impacts the kids. Many here that have been through a D with kids have put their kids into IC. So yes, I would suggest looking into that.
2. Do not allow him to be disrespectful. "You spend a lot of money on groceries." "I will not tolerate being spoken to in this manner." Then end the phonecall, text exchange, or walk away (if in person). He needs to see that you are standing up for yourself.
Venting....
So that same week he is wanting to try again. We talked and I told him he knew what I wanted, I wasnt going to repeat myself...I did add that I (and the whole family but he didnt need to know that) want him to seek some advice as to whether he is depressed. I am convinced he is and has suffered from it for a long time. He agreed to see our GP but I dont know what has come of that and I am not sure if I should ask.
It seems far more positive this time. Also different... much calmer, much more willing to be a hand on parent, offered up a "generous" schedule where he is sleeping over most of the week so I can have more free time for work etc. He is far more hands on with parenting/domestic duties.
My detachment is a little scary to me to be honest, I feel like now I am one step away from walking off myself. Part of me is waiting for him to screw it all up again. I don't care if this dosen't work out.
My home is looking lovely and will be finished soon. Work is crazy as we are in lockdown and most of my time and energy is going towards that and my kids. Still havent found an exercise app i like, might just try one out regardless.
I did a thing today which i dont know is good or bad nor do I know how to handle.
He took the kids out to the park and left his computer... so i snooped. I found emails from the OW dated from after our last R talk, it appears they organised to meet up and from what I can understand he ended it with the OW. However it appears from the emails I did read that their relationship was much much more than what he let on. He declared she was his eternal love.... he will miss her...blah blah blah. She also appears to be an absolute drama queen. I printed off copies to keep. I am going to raise this issue with my DB coach but I dont know what to do. Do i leave it? He ended it as I asked. But he never told me and I haven nit bought up the transparency question with him.
Im trying to take this day by day, im still surprised tbh by his actions this week, but I am looking for the "I will move mountains to be with you" before i feel more confident that next week he will still be around.
HI feel more time is needed, this weekly cycle of I love you ...I cant...but I love you has taken its toll and im trying really hard not to resent him for all he has done.
The waffling is normal and he will do it for a while. When he's all in you'll know it, but don't count on the "I will move mountains to be with you." That kind of remorse is truly few and far between. There will be no beating of his breast and crawling across glass to show you he loves you and does want to try. It will be in small incremental ways that he'll show you (not say, but truly show) he's dedicated to making this work.
The detachment you're feeling now is the goal. It shouldn't scare you. It should empower you. You have reached the threshold of "do I actually want to save this MR?" That's exactly where you want to be if you want to move forward successfully together or apart. You cannot be feeling co-dependent in any way if you want a reconciliation. You need to know that you could just as easily walk away. This is a giant leap to you leveling out the playing field in your relationship. H no longer holds the keys to whether the MR will last or not. You both do.
The snooping. We've all done it. Most of us have regretted it. I never read anything intimately between my H and OW. I watched the phone records, and I tracked his whereabouts but the idiot should've gotten his own phone or a burner if he really didn't want me to know. I actually turned my tracking off so he couldn't find me or know if I'd pop up where he and OW were. My H wasn't particularly good at cheating, or hiding it, so may be I had less of a need to dig. But now that you've seen what you've seen do you need to snoop more? Or is this enough for you?
You have more than enough for a divorce lawyer so as far as I'm concerned you need to be done now. Continuing to snoop will only hurt you. You may see something you didn't want to see and can't unsee it. You may get caught and all your efforts toward R will be tossed out the window. WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out. On top of that, if you really want an R with this man how long are you going to invade his privacy instead of trying to rebuild trust? If there are things you want to know it's his job to let you know and to make you feel comfortable and safe. It's your job to make him feel like you're actually trying to move past the A. I won't condemn the snooping you've done you got some information you needed to see with your own eyes, but you need to end it here.
The waffling is normal and he will do it for a while. When he's all in you'll know it, but don't count on the "I will move mountains to be with you." That kind of remorse is truly few and far between. There will be no beating of his breast and crawling across glass to show you he loves you and does want to try. It will be in small incremental ways that he'll show you (not say, but truly show) he's dedicated to making this work.
The detachment you're feeling now is the goal. It shouldn't scare you. It should empower you. You have reached the threshold of "do I actually want to save this MR?" That's exactly where you want to be if you want to move forward successfully together or apart. You cannot be feeling co-dependent in any way if you want a reconciliation. You need to know that you could just as easily walk away. This is a giant leap to you leveling out the playing field in your relationship. H no longer holds the keys to whether the MR will last or not. You both do.
The snooping. We've all done it. Most of us have regretted it. I never read anything intimately between my H and OW. I watched the phone records, and I tracked his whereabouts but the idiot should've gotten his own phone or a burner if he really didn't want me to know. I actually turned my tracking off so he couldn't find me or know if I'd pop up where he and OW were. My H wasn't particularly good at cheating, or hiding it, so may be I had less of a need to dig. But now that you've seen what you've seen do you need to snoop more? Or is this enough for you?
You have more than enough for a divorce lawyer so as far as I'm concerned you need to be done now. Continuing to snoop will only hurt you. You may see something you didn't want to see and can't unsee it. You may get caught and all your efforts toward R will be tossed out the window. WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out. On top of that, if you really want an R with this man how long are you going to invade his privacy instead of trying to rebuild trust? If there are things you want to know it's his job to let you know and to make you feel comfortable and safe. It's your job to make him feel like you're actually trying to move past the A. I won't condemn the snooping you've done you got some information you needed to see with your own eyes, but you need to end it here.
You may see something you didn't want to see and can't unsee it. You may get caught and all your efforts toward R will be tossed out the window. WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out. On top of that, if you really want an R with this man how long are you going to invade his privacy instead of trying to rebuild trust? If there are things you want to know it's his job to let you know and to make you feel comfortable and safe. It's your job to make him feel like you're actually trying to move past the A. I won't condemn the snooping you've done you got some information you needed to see with your own eyes, but you need to end it here.
All of this is very important.
It’s his job to rebuild trust.
I agree it is his job.
We were seperated for a few months before they met. Not sure I would classify it as cheating. Just angry that he clearly lied about the extent of the relationship. He maintained it was merely a friendship that had developed "feelings" yet the emails I read was the about the eternal love he has for her even if they cant be together. To be clear, they both sound loopy, they knew each for four months (this has been confirmed from the emails I read) and her emails made it sound like her one true love was leaving.
I guess the truly detached would be reaching levels of peace and that none of it would be bothering them..but I am bothered by the lies.
This is exhausting just even thinking to reconnect. If what WF said was true and this waffling is to be expected... and it's highly unlikely i'll get any mountains moved. Then perhaps a better way to frame it is what is expected of me? If this is going to go ahead... then I want someone to give me what i am willing to give them. Without trying to sound arrogant, I am pretty good for a partner. He knows that I am trustworthy, honest, caring. I just want the same in return.
I want to know that when he says something, he means it. I want to know that for the most part, I have someone who is willing to stay the course and take this journey with me.
I hate that I don't have that. I also hate that if this has any potential of eventually working out then I feel I am moving the mountains, I am crawling along the grass. That the hard work is on me to try and forgive.
I guess thats the part that really gets to me.
OB...you are absolutely right its all very important. Just wanted to ask... whereabouts in Aus are you?
LH19...Im not sure it's a job he is willing to do.
Wayfarer... you were spot on!
So he waffled again, claimed he didn't want to work on us. I just said ok and walked away and he has started acting like a AH. I had a very important task due for my job today which i have every year.... he knows about it, I asked him if he would stay the weekend and support me...he agreed and it feels like he went out of his way to be anything but.
He abruptly walked out yesterday going off about how none of the kids were listening to him or eating, claimed he was visiting his office and was gone for about 2 hours (its around the corner and its his own business but he has always just used his laptop when he has work to do)
I wonder if the OW has been reaching out to him or he has been reaching out to her, we are in lockdown and there is honestly no where to go open. He came back calmer but still a AH. He then napped all afternoon, went got takeaway for him and the eldest then left.
Is he mourning her? Regretting choosing me? Should I even care?
I have just shut down with him. Not lovingly detached by any means, more angry and I don't want to deal with him. He has major issues he needs to deal with and Im just going to focus on me and the kids.
Really worried about the eldest, he has badly regressed in his sleep and is constantly analysing his fathers actions and movements. I have spent the morning calling around to see if I can set up a phone counselling session for him. He is only 8 but has always had such a wise and mature nature with a high EQ. So he is really feeling this.
Pretty sure we're in the same city Michka
Michka,
He took the kids out to the park and left his computer... so i snooped. I found emails from the OW dated from after our last R talk, it appears they organised to meet up and from what I can understand he ended it with the OW. However it appears from the emails I did read that their relationship was much much more than what he let on. He declared she was his eternal love.... he will miss her...blah blah blah. She also appears to be an absolute drama queen. I printed off copies to keep. I am going to raise this issue with my DB coach but I dont know what to do. Do i leave it? He ended it as I asked. But he never told me and I haven nit bought up the transparency question with him.
Good sign he ended it. Better him secretively meeting up to end it than to jump in bed with her. Based on my It's not uncommon for them
My H wasn't particularly good at cheating, or hiding it, so may be I had less of a need to dig.
Are any of them? Seems like most are so caught up in the fantasty they have no idea how obvious their "secretive" behaviors are.
You have more than enough for a divorce lawyer so as far as I'm concerned you need to be done now.
Do you have a lawyer? If not consult with one (or three) NOW. Understand what matters or what doesn't. I did have ample evidence of the affair, but my L quickly let me know it had no bearing what so ever on the D, whether it'd be custody, alimony, or child support. However, IF it does in Australia where you are keep snooping and documenting in case you need it.
Continuing to snoop will only hurt you. You may see something you didn't want to see and can't unsee it. You may get caught and all your efforts toward R will be tossed out the window.
It does seem like you have more of a chance to R than most, so maybe it's best to stop snooping. I know it certainly hurt me and set me back every time I did, and if I had be given the chance to R it might've hurt my perspective to R.
WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out.
Yep!
ExW: sounds like we have a trust issue (referring to me, as if she's not the one having the affair).
Me (thinking): Umm...yeah...for obvious reasons?
We were seperated for a few months before they met. Not sure I would classify it as cheating.
You're still married! It's cheating. He can't move out for a bit, test the field, move back and want to work on things, then move out and and date and have it not be cheating. You took vows. He has to honor them or not.
Just angry that he clearly lied about the extent of the relationship. He maintained it was merely a friendship that had developed "feelings" yet the emails I read was the about the eternal love he has for her even if they cant be together.
Unfortunately this is common. You'll read it A LOT on this board. Spouses having an affair will lie, lie, lie...only admitting what they've been caught on. My ExW's AP/OM1 was "just a coworker", then they had "been friends for 10 years", then "OK, we had an EA", then "we only kissed"...etc.
To be clear, they both sound loopy, they knew each for four months (this has been confirmed from the emails I read) and her emails made it sound like her one true love was leaving.
Unfortunately again, this is also very common...and "Loopy" is a great word for it.
My ExW & AP/OM1 had only known each other for a few months and yet "they were each others' person", they "would always have a bond", they just dreamt of their marriages being over and having the kids run around in the back yard together...etc. A few months later when the spouses and their employer found it was all over and ExW quickly had the same "loopy" talks with OM2.
It seems crazy to a rationally thinking person, but WAS/WWs can literally turn their back on their their spouses and think the AP is their one and only soul mate after a short period of time, ignoring all realities.
Really worried about the eldest, he has badly regressed in his sleep and is constantly analysing his fathers actions and movements. I have spent the morning calling around to see if I can set up a phone counselling session for him. He is only 8 but has always had such a wise and mature nature with a high EQ. So he is really feeling this.
Sorry. It's so hard to see the impacts on the kids. My S6 has cried many times over the last year, once 45 mins sobbing himself to sleep, but seems to be getting better over time. All you can do is your best for your kids. Be there for them. Be a great mom.
WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out.
Yep!
ExW: sounds like we have a trust issue (referring to me, as if she's not the one having the affair).
Me (thinking): Umm...yeah...for obvious reasons?
My H, when confronted with a 20 page phone bill when it was usually 4-8 pages. The exact same convo....I swear.
Mishka when I have a little more time I'll read through what's been going on recently and drop my 2 cents. I just saw what BL42 wrote and couldn't help myself it made me laugh so hard.
OB....Thats cool! Hope lockdown hasn't been too hard on you... Im slowly going crazy. Im blessed that I have my inlaws coming over each day to support me.
Michka,
He took the kids out to the park and left his computer... so i snooped. I found emails from the OW dated from after our last R talk, it appears they organised to meet up and from what I can understand he ended it with the OW. However it appears from the emails I did read that their relationship was much much more than what he let on. He declared she was his eternal love.... he will miss her...blah blah blah. She also appears to be an absolute drama queen. I printed off copies to keep. I am going to raise this issue with my DB coach but I dont know what to do. Do i leave it? He ended it as I asked. But he never told me and I haven nit bought up the transparency question with him.
Good sign he ended it. Better him secretively meeting up to end it than to jump in bed with her. Based on my It's not uncommon for them
I feel foolish but he always maintained that it was never physical... judging by the tone of the emails and everyone else's experiences on the board Im going to assume it was.
You have more than enough for a divorce lawyer so as far as I'm concerned you need to be done now.
Do you have a lawyer? If not consult with one (or three) NOW. Understand what matters or what doesn't. I did have ample evidence of the affair, but my L quickly let me know it had no bearing what so ever on the D, whether it'd be custody, alimony, or child support. However, IF it does in Australia where you are keep snooping and documenting in case you need it.
Already have one, but those emails about the affair arent relevant. They deal with property settlement and child support.
Continuing to snoop will only hurt you. You may see something you didn't want to see and can't unsee it. You may get caught and all your efforts toward R will be tossed out the window.
It does seem like you have more of a chance to R than most, so maybe it's best to stop snooping. I know it certainly hurt me and set me back every time I did, and if I had be given the chance to R it might've hurt my perspective to R.
Its so hard, I now have a way to contact the OW and its taking all my willpower to NOT contact her. But I wont lie I really really want to.
WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out.
Yep!
ExW: sounds like we have a trust issue (referring to me, as if she's not the one having the affair).
Me (thinking): Umm...yeah...for obvious reasons?
Made me laugh!
We were seperated for a few months before they met. Not sure I would classify it as cheating.
You're still married! It's cheating. He can't move out for a bit, test the field, move back and want to work on things, then move out and and date and have it not be cheating. You took vows. He has to honor them or not.
In theory I agree. What kills me is that should he be in my shoes he would have cut me off immediately, shouted it to the hilltops and played the victim to the audience.
Just angry that he clearly lied about the extent of the relationship. He maintained it was merely a friendship that had developed "feelings" yet the emails I read was the about the eternal love he has for her even if they cant be together.
Unfortunately this is common. You'll read it A LOT on this board. Spouses having an affair will lie, lie, lie...only admitting what they've been caught on. My ExW's AP/OM1 was "just a coworker", then they had "been friends for 10 years", then "OK, we had an EA", then "we only kissed"...etc.
Yes so it appears. Still makes me sick. Also makes the whole trust issue so much harder.
To be clear, they both sound loopy, they knew each for four months (this has been confirmed from the emails I read) and her emails made it sound like her one true love was leaving.
Unfortunately again, this is also very common...and "Loopy" is a great word for it.
I really feel like quoting parts of the email..but I wont, they are packed away "just in case". But honestly they made me sick. Sounded like two middle aged adults playing they are Romeo and Juliet.
My ExW & AP/OM1 had only known each other for a few months and yet "they were each others' person", they "would always have a bond", they just dreamt of their marriages being over and having the kids run around in the back yard together...etc. A few months later when the spouses and their employer found it was all over and ExW quickly had the same "loopy" talks with OM2.
It seems crazy to a rationally thinking person, but WAS/WWs can literally turn their back on their their spouses and think the AP is their one and only soul mate after a short period of time, ignoring all realities.
Honestly...part of me wants to reach out to the OW and tell her if she wants my scraps she is welcome to him.
Really worried about the eldest, he has badly regressed in his sleep and is constantly analysing his fathers actions and movements. I have spent the morning calling around to see if I can set up a phone counselling session for him. He is only 8 but has always had such a wise and mature nature with a high EQ. So he is really feeling this.
Sorry. It's so hard to see the impacts on the kids. My S6 has cried many times over the last year, once 45 mins sobbing himself to sleep, but seems to be getting better over time. All you can do is your best for your kids. Be there for them. Be a great mom.
I am really trying to be a mum, dad and everything else. Lockdown feels like it has magnified the emotions in relation to this drama. We are all at home and there isn't the usual distractions of school, friends etc etc. He and his brother are getting on each others nerves. They are getting on my nerves. Just alot of nerves all round
WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out.
Yep!
ExW: sounds like we have a trust issue (referring to me, as if she's not the one having the affair).
Me (thinking): Umm...yeah...for obvious reasons?
My H, when confronted with a 20 page phone bill when it was usually 4-8 pages. The exact same convo....I swear.
Mishka when I have a little more time I'll read through what's been going on recently and drop my 2 cents. I just saw what BL42 wrote and couldn't help myself it made me laugh so hard.
It made me laugh too.
I would greatly appreciate your two cents.
WSs looooovvvvvveeee a reason to act like they can't trust you. It makes them feel like the moral playing field has leveled out.
Yep!
ExW: sounds like we have a trust issue (referring to me, as if she's not the one having the affair).
Me (thinking): Umm...yeah...for obvious reasons?
My H, when confronted with a 20 page phone bill when it was usually 4-8 pages. The exact same convo....I swear.
Mishka when I have a little more time I'll read through what's been going on recently and drop my 2 cents. I just saw what BL42 wrote and couldn't help myself it made me laugh so hard.
It made me laugh too.
I would greatly appreciate your two cents.
Such a hypocritical tactic by a WAS/WS! I know my W tried the same tact. "You were checking up on me??"
I finally asked her: "What is worse, snooping on someone? Or being guilty of behavior that is inappropriate and found during snooping?" She never accused me of breaching protocol again!
Such a hypocritical tactic by a WAS/WS! I know my W tried the same tact. "You were checking up on me??"
I finally asked her: "What is worse, snooping on someone? Or being guilty of behavior that is inappropriate and found during snooping?" She never accused me of breaching protocol again!
When I got that massive bill we weren't home together. I sent him a text and said: "I got a phone bill in a catalog envelop for the first time ever. I think we need to have a serious conversation. You have almost 500 texts between you and what I can only assume is OWs phone number in a 28 day billing period . You're clearly having an EA and I'm done letting you gaslight me into submission over this."
H: I think you're right. It's pretty serious that you're going through the phone bill like that.
Me: What? Are you serious right now? How was I not supposed to look at phone bill that came like Sears catalog? A phone I pay for btw."
H: Oh so now you're going to guilt me because you pay a few bills in the house?
Me: WTF are you talking about? You've tried to make me think I was crazy and insecure and now I see it really is trust issue here. I can't trust or believe you.
H: Yeah you're right we definitely do have a trust issue here.
Me: Are you effing kidding me right now? Whatever. We're talking about this tonight. I'm not doing this with you any more.
H: Yeah I do think we need to discuss some things.
Me: Oh fantastic. So glad we're on the same page. Have a lovely day.
He didn't know that I did have a friend call the number to confirm it was OW. But that was besides the point...lol
"I got a phone bill in a catalog envelop for the first time ever. I think we need to have a serious conversation. You have almost 500 texts between you and what I can only assume is OWs phone number in a 28 day billing period . You're clearly having an EA and I'm done letting you gaslight me into submission over this."
H: I think you're right. It's pretty serious that you're going through the phone bill like that.
Me: What? Are you serious right now? How was I not supposed to look at phone bill that came like Sears catalog? A phone I pay for btw."
H: Oh so now you're going to guilt me because you pay a few bills in the house?
Me: WTF are you talking about? You've tried to make me think I was crazy and insecure and now I see it really is trust issue here. I can't trust or believe you.
H: Yeah you're right we definitely do have a trust issue here.
Me: Are you effing kidding me right now? Whatever. We're talking about this tonight. I'm not doing this with you any more.
H: Yeah I do think we need to discuss some things.
Me: Oh fantastic. So glad we're on the same page. Have a lovely day.
This is next-level, ninja gaslighting and deflection here! Holy carp!!!
97- Oh yeah it was a sh!tshow for months in my house. His entire personality changed. I was blessed with having a crappy childhood with a narcissist step-father so I could see H's BS a mile away. And my default is fight not cry so there were a lot of I guess we call them truth darts, even before I started DBing, because I wasn't going to be manipulated. Go ahead and pretend you're not having an affair, but you're not making me think I'm crazy in the process. When he couldn't win the you're crazy I'm not doing anything wrong fight he turned it into the you always have to be right and that's part of the reason I'm not happy in our MR fight. Which in reality had/has some merit, but in crazy pants land I literally was right the whole time so it was pretty irrelevant.
M- being locked in makes everyone's emotions high, and a WH/WAH is running on the emotional levels of a teenage girl. You're doing a great job of focusing on you and the kids and trying to DB which trust me I know is hard being locked in together. There are just a few things you need to consider. 1) how long are you willing to wait out his waffling. You don't need to decide that right this second, but giving yourself a deadline really helps with dealing with the stress of an IHS. Knowing you have a point at which you will take the future of this MR into your own hands is a kind of light at the end of the tunnel 2) brush up your boundaries. Go read the boundaries thread. Take some time to think about things you're done with. Think about some things that you just don't have the energy to fight over. Make concessions that'll make your life, or your kids' lives easier, even if it seems like you're giving in a little to H's circus. Stand firm on your lines in the sand. 3) See what you can do to help your oldest outside of the professional scope while you wait. Sometimes it's as easy as more hugs or a little more 1 on 1. Sometimes it's way more complicated and they are having big feelings that really only a professional to help both of you manage better is the only option. If he can articulate it and you can relieve some it great. If he can't, you're his mom, you clearly know what's up, you'll get this figured out eventually. And cut yourself and kiddo some slack. Kids get moody. Kids go through weird sleeping and eating phases. It's entirely possible that what's going on has nothing to do with the two of you and this is something short term that is totally unrelated. 4) Keep your sights on detachment. WS/WAS love to try to bring other people on their ride with them. Misery lovvvveeeesss company. The stronger you get the easier it will be to wait out the waffling.
You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders M. Just keep it up. You're doing great.
WAH/WH : "running on the emotion level of a teenage girl" THIS!!!!
When we remember this, it helps to look at it from a place of distance.
Hope all of the nerves are doing ok today, M. You've got this!!
Ugh - Need to vent again or potentially get a 2x4...
So something just didn't feel right after reading those emails from the AP. I also kept thinking about how he was accusing me of an affair early on after BD. Also everyone here seemed to have experienced finding the AP was happening for a lot longer/more in depth then originally thought.
I thought the emails originally correlated with the dates he told me, but I then thought he could have been just as easily deleting stuff as he went along?
I know snooping is like revenge, its hurts both parties, but I chose to go ahead to do it because I needed to know. I needed to know the truth and then base my decision off that, not off his feelings/waffling which changes weekly.
So i got access to the phone bills (originally didn't have access because it was a business account but I changed the settings over the phone and the fool I spoke to didn't ask too many questions)
Well it seems my spidey sense was right, he met her last year sometime, the earliest date I can see him contacting her is Dec 22,2020. Thats based on the current phone number i have of the OW. I am making no assumptions that this is the actual date of first contact because who knows if she didn't get a new number or whatever. BD was mid Jan, 2021
So he has been having an affair, lying to me the whole time, even when I would ask point blank during those times he said he wanted to try about the extent of his involvement with her. He always said he never slept with her but I call BS.
Now heres where I may need the 2x4... I want to call her. I want the details, I want to know how long its been, how they met, if they slept together. What her intentions were.
So do I or do I let it all go.
Michka,
Well it seems my spidey sense was right, he met her last year sometime, the earliest date I can see him contacting her is Dec 22,2020. Thats based on the current phone number i have of the OW. I am making no assumptions that this is the actual date of first contact because who knows if she didn't get a new number or whatever. BD was mid Jan, 2021
So he has been having an affair, lying to me the whole time, even when I would ask point blank during those times he said he wanted to try about the extent of his involvement with her. He always said he never slept with her but I call BS.
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately it was very likely there was more to it than he admitted.
Now heres where I may need the 2x4... I want to call her. I want the details, I want to know how long its been, how they met, if they slept together. What her intentions were.
So do I or do I let it all go.
The problem with contacting her is that A) she could very well lie about it just as much as he did. She has no incentive to be honest, so how do you really know what she says is true? And B) it could be a catalyst for the two of them to get back in touch with each other. She will almost certainly reach out and tell him, and he'll likely get angry with you and say you betrayed him (ironic, right?).
My understanding is you believe they ended it and aren't in contact at the moment. If that's true i say don't confront. If they are still in contact though, it might make sense to disrupt things.
I'm no expert though...others may have better advice.
Do not contact her. Think through the possible outcomes and be honest with yourself if any of them seem useful.
I'm doing ok in the lockdown thanks for asking, I can still go to work now which is a big help and my S4 is still able to go to daycare. I also don't live near the main areas of outbreak. I'm glad you have regular help.
So full disclosure, I don't know if you read through my sitch or not but I did contact OW. And OW did contact me. I'm not particularly detailed about it because: it wasn't exactly one my finer moments, it happened before I started reading DB or participating on this board, also my sitch was a little different than others in that I knew what was happening literally as it was unfolding. I knew what was happening before even my H did, so my contact with OW was before things went completely off the rails, before it was PA, before H had decided he was going to leave me for her. Other reasoning on why I didn't share much being: OW lived relatively close to us, OW was a friend of the family (my H's family) and was always kind of on the outskirts of our lives together, there but not there until she wasn't so my ability to contact her was easy even if I didn't figure out her phone number. Also, OW had a long term live in BF that I and H were very aware of and I had multiple ways to contact him as well as it's a small world even in a mid sized city. Lastly, it is strongly recommended by MWD in her infidelity stuff and this board to under no circumstances contact the AP.
I will strongly, strongly suggest you follow that advice. This late in the game it will do you no good. You won't get the closure you seek. You won't get the answers you seek. You won't get any satisfaction from the interaction at all. Much like R convos with a WS/WAS this will absolutely not go the way you want it to, and it will definitely not go in your favor. OW has absolutely no incentive to tell you the truth. She has zero reason to be reasonable in the event of actually accepting your call. And if you keep getting her voice mail or something and repeatedly call her she could file a harassment charge on you.
As I've told you it's your H's job to clear these things up for you. If there is to be a R he will have to come clean. If you don't, well you're going to have to live with his story or the story you're creating with the facts you have. No one gets clarity or the closure they really want. Even those who do R because at some point you have to stop talking about it. And my personal opinion being a WW in my first MR and an LBS in my second is that you don't want all the information that you think you do. Go back and look through may22's thread from like a year-year and half ago. Her H could literally not stop barraging her with info about the affair once the truth about it was out there. It takes a toll on your psyche. That is not your burden to bear and as much as you think you want ALL the answers, trust me my friend you don't.
Ugh - Need to vent again or potentially get a 2x4...
So something just didn't feel right after reading those emails from the AP. I also kept thinking about how he was accusing me of an affair early on after BD. Also everyone here seemed to have experienced finding the AP was happening for a lot longer/more in depth then originally thought.
I thought the emails originally correlated with the dates he told me, but I then thought he could have been just as easily deleting stuff as he went along?
I know snooping is like revenge, its hurts both parties, but I chose to go ahead to do it because I needed to know. I needed to know the truth and then base my decision off that, not off his feelings/waffling which changes weekly.
So i got access to the phone bills (originally didn't have access because it was a business account but I changed the settings over the phone and the fool I spoke to didn't ask too many questions)
Well it seems my spidey sense was right, he met her last year sometime, the earliest date I can see him contacting her is Dec 22,2020. Thats based on the current phone number i have of the OW. I am making no assumptions that this is the actual date of first contact because who knows if she didn't get a new number or whatever. BD was mid Jan, 2021
So he has been having an affair, lying to me the whole time, even when I would ask point blank during those times he said he wanted to try about the extent of his involvement with her. He always said he never slept with her but I call BS.
Now heres where I may need the 2x4... I want to call her. I want the details, I want to know how long its been, how they met, if they slept together. What her intentions were.
So do I or do I let it all go.
First, what does any of this change? What will getting more details change?
LBSs are notorious for chasing rainbows. I did it. "If I only knew what was said between them!" But after I would find out I felt worse, and it changed NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, I should be doing.
Second, how would a properly detached person behave? Snooping? Calling the AP? etc.
Third, if you contact her, she will lie. You cannot believe a word that comes out of her mouth so why even inquire from her what her intentions are. You will never know for sure.
This might not be a popular opinion, but I view the OW/AP as gum on my shoe.
I don't engage with it. I scrape it off, clean it, and walk on.
I don't have conversations, or look for the truth from gum on my shoe.
I don't spend my time wondering how long the gum was on my shoe, or why it picked my shoe.
It's gum on my shoe. It adds nothing of value to my life. It is a nuisance unless I make it a central focus.
So...my opinion is...do NOT call them. They have nothing of value to add to your life and they lie and cheat. Last person you would want to count on for truth, or really anything.
They are not on your level. Leave them there, and stay on yours.
I'm so sorry you have had this revelation, but now you know.
At some point you have to decide, when is it enough? He has had an AP, will details change anything about that? As soon as you know 'enough', you have to fight the urge to dig deeper. If your L needs more info, they have people that can take care of that.
Now is the time for healing. A wound won't begin to heal until you let it.
x
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone.
This community has been amazing and such a source of strength for me.
BL24, Only Bent, WF, SteveLW and 97 Hope I apologise in advance but I went ahead and TM anyway before any of you got a chance to give me your 2x4s and advice.
I did think about it, I really did and the sole reason I finally decided to reach out despite my original need to want all the facts was because I just wanted them to know that I know. I knew there was nothing else I could potentially get out of it because let's face why would anyone want to be honest about this?
I was very polite when I tm'ed- WF because I already thought of them trying to use this against me in some way...she seemed willing to chat at first. We even scheduled a time for the following day. But then she did let H know who promptly told me she has been "instructed" not to communicate with me. So I have left it.
The irony being my H did pull the "I cant believe you went through my stuff" line with me. Made me a laugh considering everything that has been discussed here recently.
I suspected that despite last week's "breakup" that they reconciled previous to this based on his actions over the weekend and if he is waffling with me, Im guessing he is doing the same with her, again the emails I found indicated H had been on and off with her before. So its not like I was the catalyst for their reunion if that is indeed what happened. Nor do I care.
I have asked my L to initiate the property settlement, in aust talk that means seperation of assets. That is not a divorce, if thats what he wants he can apply for it. But given everything especially his gambling I think it's prudent I take action to protect myself.
He has been banned from sleeping over here or spending any amount of extended time and because of lockdown I had already stopped the kids going over his apartment because he was in a high risk area. I still wont allow it. He has been taking the kids to nearby parks for the past three days.
I also wont allow him to talk to me unless its via email or TM.
In terms of any reconciliation attempts... well all he has given me so far is BS. So I have decided Im just not going to think about it. I don't care. Right now I feel like to heal I need to be angry Michka who takes charge and control. This is something I have been really fighting with all year because we have always clashed over this. Previously when I have wanted to menu plan, budget, create any sort of schedule so we can both have time to ourselves and get stuff done or just pay off the mortgage before I die - he has either resisted or just simply disengaged.Even when I was trying to "fix" this pre discovering MWD, in theory he agreed, he just never followed through. He has always stated we are both alphas and thats why we clash. I think with hindsight I can simply see he was just selfish and entitled and resisted anything that would make him do work or sacrifice. This attitude is what I believe led to all this.
I feel better, I feel almost free. I think one of the biggest things to come from all this is earlier on we had an incident which led me to calling the police and he was charged as a result. He kept going on and on about how I broke him that day, I betrayed his trust, how I caused so many issues as a result... well the irony being he was claiming that day "I" was having an affair and thats what led to the whole mess.
I lost so many nights of sleep over that day, wondering if i made the right choice, if i ruined any chances of us being together. Well now I feel nothing. His actions caused that day and the whole chain of events, he can deal with the consequences.
Agree with the others. Do not contact the OW. You have zero guarantee you'll find out anything true. And if you do-- like WF said, there is harm in knowing too much. I wish I knew waaaaay less about my H's affair and how he felt about her. I really wish I could scrub my brain of a lot of it. It sticks with you.
Also, as $hitty of a human being as the OW is for engaging in an A with your H-- your H is really the one you should be worried about. What do you know now? He's a liar and a cheater. You need to really, truly accept this. Maybe he won't always be this person, but this is who he's been and this is who he is right now. What can talking to the OW tell you that matters more than these basic truths? I'd spend some time here, if I were you. Just sitting with this knowledge and thinking about what it means for you and what you want to do going forward. I think it can be helpful in detaching for sure. (It helped me.)
I really really really wanted to contact my H's AP. I did not. I did, however, write tons of letters to her that I never sent, but it helped to get them off my chest. (Full disclosure-- I *still* want to write her or call her or have my H write her, and tell her that he never really loved her and she was a horrible mistake. I know this is not mature or sensible of me, and therefore am not pursuing this avenue. But just to say I totally get the impulse.)
What can you do for yourself, today? I know this is a big hurtful thing to find out and probably once you get through your adrenaline rush of anger and wanting to call the OW, you're going to crash and a lot of feelings will probably hit you. Let yourself be angry and grieve. You deserve it.
Agree with the others. Do not contact the OW. You have zero guarantee you'll find out anything true. And if you do-- like WF said, there is harm in knowing too much. I wish I knew waaaaay less about my H's affair and how he felt about her. I really wish I could scrub my brain of a lot of it. It sticks with you.
Also, as $hitty of a human being as the OW is for engaging in an A with your H-- your H is really the one you should be worried about. What do you know now? He's a liar and a cheater. You need to really, truly accept this. Maybe he won't always be this person, but this is who he's been and this is who he is right now. What can talking to the OW tell you that matters more than these basic truths? I'd spend some time here, if I were you. Just sitting with this knowledge and thinking about what it means for you and what you want to do going forward. I think it can be helpful in detaching for sure. (It helped me.)
I really really really wanted to contact my H's AP. I did not. I did, however, write tons of letters to her that I never sent, but it helped to get them off my chest. (Full disclosure-- I *still* want to write her or call her or have my H write her, and tell her that he never really loved her and she was a horrible mistake. I know this is not mature or sensible of me, and therefore am not pursuing this avenue. But just to say I totally get the impulse.)
What can you do for yourself, today? I know this is a big hurtful thing to find out and probably once you get through your adrenaline rush of anger and wanting to call the OW, you're going to crash and a lot of feelings will probably hit you. Let yourself be angry and grieve. You deserve it.
May22 - thankyou for your input. I already did it (read my previous post, it seems you and I were posting at the same time)
I must say I am concerned I will crash. Because I cant really afford to right now. I dont have any real emotional support except for IC.
So I am going for the angry mama bear mode.
I feel better, I feel almost free. I think one of the biggest things to come from all this is earlier on we had an incident which led me to calling the police and he was charged as a result. He kept going on and on about how I broke him that day, I betrayed his trust, how I caused so many issues as a result... well the irony being he was claiming that day "I" was having an affair and thats what led to the whole mess.
I lost so many nights of sleep over that day, wondering if i made the right choice, if i ruined any chances of us being together. Well now I feel nothing. His actions caused that day and the whole chain of events, he can deal with the consequences.
This is concerning. I would highly suggest a restraining order against him. And now I am down the path of what are you trying to save here? Think about that? He is a lying cheater, and an abuser. I know it is hard, but I am beginning to think the right thing to do here is to walk-away and never look back.
SteveLW all that has been taken care of when he was charged. Its slightly different in aus but essentially all that legal protective stuff was already in place.
What am I trying to save? Thats the part I don't want to think about.
This week has been so trying, the kids are really feeling his absence as literally just last week he was spending most of his time here, sleeping over and things were really looking up.
My eldest (S8) is struggling and really misses his dad. The middle one (s6) is I think a bit too young to fathom any difference and the baby just wants me so it dosen't matter right now.
I know what you mean SteveLW, if someone else was in my position I would be saying the exact same thing.
But its hard.
Mama bear mode is not a bad thing. Focus on your kids and whatever you need to do to be the best mom you can be.
This week has been so trying, the kids are really feeling his absence as literally just last week he was spending most of his time here, sleeping over and things were really looking up.
My eldest (S8) is struggling and really misses his dad. The middle one (s6) is I think a bit too young to fathom any difference and the baby just wants me so it dosen't matter right now.
Remember, there is absolutely nothing you can do about his behavior. He's in charge of himself and you're in charge of you. It $ucks for your children that he's making these choices... but that is on him, not on you. If I were you, I'd use that deserved mama bear anger to help you continue to drop the rope. Take control of your own life and start focusing on decisions that are best for you and your kids. Don't worry about him anymore and whether he stays or goes or wants to R or not. Who cares? DnJ over on the MLC forum has some really great stuff on detaching that might be helpful for you to read. It sounds like you've made some great steps recently in detaching. Keep that up. With your children, do what you can to be there for them and support them, especially S8. Make sure they know they can talk to you about how they're feeling. Their dad might be an @ss but they have you.
Mama bear mode is not a bad thing. Focus on your kids and whatever you need to do to be the best mom you can be.
This week has been so trying, the kids are really feeling his absence as literally just last week he was spending most of his time here, sleeping over and things were really looking up.
My eldest (S8) is struggling and really misses his dad. The middle one (s6) is I think a bit too young to fathom any difference and the baby just wants me so it dosen't matter right now.
Remember, there is absolutely nothing you can do about his behavior. He's in charge of himself and you're in charge of you. It $ucks for your children that he's making these choices... but that is on him, not on you. If I were you, I'd use that deserved mama bear anger to help you continue to drop the rope. Take control of your own life and start focusing on decisions that are best for you and your kids. Don't worry about him anymore and whether he stays or goes or wants to R or not. Who cares? DnJ over on the MLC forum has some really great stuff on detaching that might be helpful for you to read. It sounds like you've made some great steps recently in detaching. Keep that up. With your children, do what you can to be there for them and support them, especially S8. Make sure they know they can talk to you about how they're feeling. Their dad might be an @ss but they have you.
Thanks May! Right now I am just trying not to hate him.
The eldest nearly broke me this morning, we had a little heart to heart about his father and why he isnt home. Im really trying to frame this in a way thats supportive of H and concentrating on how his father loves him more then anything etc etc But he just wasnt buying it.
He asked me why he is acting like its all "rainbows and unicorns" when he should know how much its hurting him because his father has left and why shouldnt he try harder because we always told him family is everything.
That took a few deep breaths and alot of will to not cry.
Ill have a look at DnJ. Thanks for the advice.
You're doing great.
Just a quick thought on the convo with your son-- it may be in just the way I'm reading this, but I'm wondering if you need to validate your son's feelings a bit more rather than talk about your H in a supportive way. Of course your son is horribly hurt. Those are normal feelings. Maybe (you could have already done this, but if not) really practice your validation skills on him, let him know it is okay that he feels this way, you would in his shoes, you feel sad too, (maybe you DO feel so sad too) and just hug him. It doesn't mean saying anything negative about your H or how his actions could be interpreted vis-a-vis his love for your children. I think you just want to be careful not to make your son feel like he shouldn't be feeling badly because his dad loves him, or feel like he needs to be strong and not cry in front of you. I'm sure others have more experience and wise words in this arena, but just something that came across a bit in your post.
Hang in there,
May
Thanks May.
I took your advice to talk less about H and more about how he was feeling. He seemed to respond well to this.
H has so kindly offered to speak to me and answer my questions. Suddenly I deserve to know the truth apparently.
I declined to respond.
Journalling...
Well its been a week and half or so since I found out the extent of his lies and the fact he has been actively involved in an affair for close to a year. I am sure there is more to everything but I don't want to know anymore then I do.
I wanted to really channel my energy and emotion into myself and my boys. The first thing I did was ban H from coming at night, the boys need to get used to me only putting them to sleep so we have been working on that and I am happy to say we have made real progress in a short time. S8 is still having issues but we have managed to get him back into his own bed and spending most of the night in his bed as well. S6 was my lazy one but has surprised me with his willingness to step up and has been doing really well with his chores etc. S2 is just being his usual cute self and I hope he stays that way.
S8 and S6 keep asking me questions about the current state of affairs with H and I have been honest with them in an age appropriate way. S6 is more accepting of it than S8. S8 is actively pursuing his dad to reconcile with me ( I can hear him when they face time) but I have decided to stay out of that conversation. Its between them two.
I have been just trying to focus on having a routine that works for us, especially since we are in lockdown and will be until the end of sept. Its hard doing this with three kids. Since BD any schedule we put in place has always fallen apart because of him so I am just taking the reins and doing it all myself. Its hard not to feel resentful when the kids call him and he is still in bed or tells them he has to go because he needs to go for his run, have a shower whatever. I just try to focus on the fact that I get more time with my kids. I didnt have kids to only have them half the week and when/if that time comes I can see that will be a hurdle for me.
I had a dream last night that I was being held by someone, I could never see their face in the dream but it was someone who loved me that was all i know. It sucked waking up because I felt so lonely. Waking up alone is not something I signed up for either, but i took a deep breathe and forced myself to shake it off.
Its my birthday today, I treated myself to some new clothes, and I am looking forward to a new week.
I keep treating it as a challenge. I want to take it week by week, our current state with lockdown makes it hard to do anymore than that. I am feeling both overwhelmed and empowered by this. We are doing well and we are doing well because of me.
Happy Birthday, Michka. It’s not the same, but your kids love you, and we care and are rooting for you.
CW... thanks. The people here are great. I keep thinking someone needs to put together the posts and make it into a book.
No its not the same, but it is what it is.
My children will be fine... I know. They only need one solid parent. I keep aiming to be that parent.
I will be fine too, just need to go through this journey first I guess.
Michka,
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I know it is very difficult. We used to warn newcomers that an affair being involved wasn't just likely, but very probable. Unfortunately, the best majority of situations involve another person.
Better days are ahead. I know sometimes that seems to be either impossible or so far away. Take one day at a time, put those previous little boys above all else, and keep moving forward. We're here to help and support.
Happy Birthday, Michka. I understand waking up lonely. It will get better.
I like what you said " I don't want to know more than I do".
I had a mantra when I felt the urge to dig. It was: "I know enough".
That is a good place to be. The details do not matter. For everyone, it's different in what "enough" is. I've found less is better. Hope this makes sense.
I hope you are finding peace in this storm. Steve is right, one day at a time. You are doing great, despite what you feel. ((((Michka))))
Well its been a week and half or so since I found out the extent of his lies and the fact he has been actively involved in an affair for close to a year. I am sure there is more to everything but I don't want to know anymore then I do.
There is no doubt more. A criminal really gets caught the first time they break the law if you get my gist. I am quite sure there's more I don't know, but it doesn't matter anymore.
I have been just trying to focus on having a routine that works for us, especially since we are in lockdown and will be until the end of sept. Its hard doing this with three kids.
I'm doing it with only one kid and 50% of the time, its must be really difficult for you Mich, I hope things improve here soon. Are you in one the restricted LGAs?
I didnt have kids to only have them half the week and when/if that time comes I can see that will be a hurdle for me.
For me this was the hardest part and made me the most angry, I didn't have a child to lose 50% of their time. But you know what, the quality of time does improve. And you get to parent them the way you want when they're with you.
Its my birthday today, I treated myself to some new clothes, and I am looking forward to a new week. I keep treating it as a challenge. I want to take it week by week, our current state with lockdown makes it hard to do anymore than that. I am feeling both overwhelmed and empowered by this. We are doing well and we are doing well because of me.
Happy bday for yesterday, you soon like you're doing pretty damn well, keep it up!
Michka,
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I know it is very difficult. We used to warn newcomers that an affair being involved wasn't just likely, but very probable. Unfortunately, the best majority of situations involve another person.
Better days are ahead. I know sometimes that seems to be either impossible or so far away. Take one day at a time, put those previous little boys above all else, and keep moving forward. We're here to help and support.
[quote][/quote]
I am most angry at myself for to be honest about it. I feel that had I snooped from the beginning things would have been a lot easier on me because I can then make decisions about the situation and how much I am willing to take. Especially since he kept waffling back and forth... I think thats the hardest part for my boys. It really did seem that we were going to make it.
Happy Birthday, Michka. I understand waking up lonely. It will get better.
I like what you said " I don't want to know more than I do".
I had a mantra when I felt the urge to dig. It was: "I know enough".
That is a good place to be. The details do not matter. For everyone, it's different in what "enough" is. I've found less is better. Hope this makes sense.
I hope you are finding peace in this storm. Steve is right, one day at a time. You are doing great, despite what you feel. ((((Michka))))
97 Hope.... it was never about knowing what was said, where it was said etc. I just needed to know the truth that there was someone, it was a lightbulb moment to be honest because everything else made sense. Those little things I thought were odd, strange, out of character...
The OW is just that to me...someone else. Not bad, good or terrible. She did not do anything to me. My H did. I kinda feel sorry for her to be honest. I dont regret reaching out to her, I actually think I did her a favour. In the end she never pursued contact and I left it there. I know it was highly discouraged by the board but I guess no harm was done.
I do get your gist, if there is anything I hate its lying, I would have so much more respect for him should he have just been honest from the beginning. He wanted this, own it. Not saying it would be any easier but at the very least my opportunity to decide what to do based on the actual facts would have been preferred. I allowed myself to be strung along because he kept telling me there was a chance. I just thought life/his stupidity got in the way and we could work it out.
OB I do have my in laws coming in each day for a few hours to help with the kids. I am in education so i need to be online during the day, I just stay up at night to do all the backend stuff.
I hope things improve too, I am in of the restricted LGAS (yay) but you know what, I don't think where I was would be making a huge difference right now. At least in my situation.
My boys are pretty well behaved so that makes it easier, they just have shocking palates which I am working on... anything that didnt move when it was alive seems to be abhorrent to them. But we will get there.
This parenting part I dont know, in the 8 months since BD he has been quite detached and I have had to be the main parent. I dont think it will get to 50/50 because I am not sure he wants to make the effort. His loss. my gain.
Thanks OB for the bday wishes, I made myself a strawberry cake (was very nice considering how easy it was) and watched a movie with the kids. I feel the future is bright.
Question for the people...
He keeps asking me to meet with him when I am ready so he is able to tell me the "truth".
I finally offered to do it over the phone or via text, i really don't want to be physically around him more then I have to. However he insisted it was a conversation that needed to take place "face to face".
I just left it, have not replied, just don't know what his game is with this.
What would you all do?
Hey Michka, as I see it, you’ve told him the way in which you are prepared to talk with him, stick your guns in that, nothing more to say. I would just do what you’re doing and not respond. You’ve stated your preference, that’s all that needs to be said.
Michka,
Well its been a week and half or so since I found out the extent of his lies and the fact he has been actively involved in an affair for close to a year. I am sure there is more to everything but I don't want to know anymore then I do.
Sorry. It [censored], but is often the case.
I wanted to really channel my energy and emotion into myself and my boys. The first thing I did was ban H from coming at night, the boys need to get used to me only putting them to sleep so we have been working on that and I am happy to say we have made real progress in a short time.
Have you met with a L yet? Document all of this. If your husband stays away longer and you becoming the defacto primary care giver it may help you with custody and child support, should it come to that.
I had a dream last night that I was being held by someone, I could never see their face in the dream but it was someone who loved me that was all i know. It sucked waking up because I felt so lonely. Waking up alone is not something I signed up for either, but i took a deep breathe and forced myself to shake it off.
When you're in the midst of a very difficult time, depressed, and trying to get through the minutes/hours/days, finally getting to sleep can be a reprieve to having your mind be consumed by your sitch. Unfortunately waking up brings us back to reality. I know that feeling well - waking up and that half second until you reality comes crashing back. Fortunately, this too will pass. You'll get through this and you'll wake up happy again.
Its my birthday today, I treated myself to some new clothes, and I am looking forward to a new week.
Happy belated! I think it's great you treated yourself to some new clothes. It'll make you more feel more attractive and boost your confidence. Definitely right in line with the DB'ing playbook.
Question for the people...
He keeps asking me to meet with him when I am ready so he is able to tell me the "truth".
I finally offered to do it over the phone or via text, i really don't want to be physically around him more then I have to. However he insisted it was a conversation that needed to take place "face to face".
I just left it, have not replied, just don't know what his game is with this.
What would you all do?
Hey Michka, as I see it, you’ve told him the way in which you are prepared to talk with him, stick your guns in that, nothing more to say. I would just do what you’re doing and not respond. You’ve stated your preference, that’s all that needs to be said.
I don't have a "right" answer. I agree with OnlyBent on sticking to your guns, if that's how you truly feel. He can probably type up a long email explaining everything easier than an emotional chat in which you or he forgets things or starts to argue. Just be wary of face apologies and fake intentions. As they say on here,
actions not
words...
and actions over a prolonged period of time.
Hey Michka, as I see it, you’ve told him the way in which you are prepared to talk with him, stick your guns in that, nothing more to say. I would just do what you’re doing and not respond. You’ve stated your preference, that’s all that needs to be said.
Thats how I feel OB, I have been maintaining as little contact with him as possible. Its hard with lockdown because the kids want to see him daily and right now I think they need that. However, it just means he is always around and his mere presence is more than I want to deal with.
I just wasn't sure if this was one of those " i should listen and validate" not in hopes of anything, but simply because he is my co-parent. So I thought i would put it out there in DB land.
Michka,
Well its been a week and half or so since I found out the extent of his lies and the fact he has been actively involved in an affair for close to a year. I am sure there is more to everything but I don't want to know anymore then I do.
Sorry. It [censored], but is often the case.
I wanted to really channel my energy and emotion into myself and my boys. The first thing I did was ban H from coming at night, the boys need to get used to me only putting them to sleep so we have been working on that and I am happy to say we have made real progress in a short time.
Have you met with a L yet? Document all of this. If your husband stays away longer and you becoming the defacto primary care giver it may help you with custody and child support, should it come to that.
I had a dream last night that I was being held by someone, I could never see their face in the dream but it was someone who loved me that was all i know. It sucked waking up because I felt so lonely. Waking up alone is not something I signed up for either, but i took a deep breathe and forced myself to shake it off.
When you're in the midst of a very difficult time, depressed, and trying to get through the minutes/hours/days, finally getting to sleep can be a reprieve to having your mind be consumed by your sitch. Unfortunately waking up brings us back to reality. I know that feeling well - waking up and that half second until you reality comes crashing back. Fortunately, this too will pass. You'll get through this and you'll wake up happy again.
Its my birthday today, I treated myself to some new clothes, and I am looking forward to a new week.
Happy belated! I think it's great you treated yourself to some new clothes. It'll make you more feel more attractive and boost your confidence. Definitely right in line with the DB'ing playbook.
Question for the people...
He keeps asking me to meet with him when I am ready so he is able to tell me the "truth".
I finally offered to do it over the phone or via text, i really don't want to be physically around him more then I have to. However he insisted it was a conversation that needed to take place "face to face".
I just left it, have not replied, just don't know what his game is with this.
What would you all do?
Hey Michka, as I see it, you’ve told him the way in which you are prepared to talk with him, stick your guns in that, nothing more to say. I would just do what you’re doing and not respond. You’ve stated your preference, that’s all that needs to be said.
I don't have a "right" answer. I agree with OnlyBent on sticking to your guns, if that's how you truly feel. He can probably type up a long email explaining everything easier than an emotional chat in which you or he forgets things or starts to argue. Just be wary of face apologies and fake intentions. As they say on here,
actions not
words...
and actions over a prolonged period of time.
BL42 Thank you for the support and kind words.
I have been in contact with my L since shortly after BD. They are currently aware of the situation. These conversations are all via TM as I have refused to speak to him face to face unless I had to.
I know in theory this phase will pass but in practise it [censored]. I just keep breathing. It's the kids that get to me, it really is.
I agree too with OB but I thought I would ask the question regardless. The main reason I don't want to speak to him about this is I don't believe he will be truthful. He evidently hasn't been and I have no reason to believe he will be nor am I interested in alleviating his guilt which I suspect may be part of it.
Hi Michka,
Just chiming in to say I agree, no need to meet him in person. he's fired you as his wife and you have no obligation to have a in-person chat if you don't want to. And I think you're right on-- there really is no point as you won't be able to believe anything he says anyway. He's free to write you an email if he wants.
Hang in there! Strawberry cake sounds amazing!
The main reason I don't want to speak to him about this is I don't believe he will be truthful. He evidently hasn't been and I have no reason to believe he will be nor am I interested in alleviating his guilt which I suspect may be part of it.
I think you're right M, if he tells the truth would you even believe it...boy who cried wolf. It becomes pointless, and knowing the truth will not help you move forward anyway. You're doing well. Lets hope there's light at the end of this lockdown tunnel.
Question for the people...
He keeps asking me to meet with him when I am ready so he is able to tell me the "truth".
I finally offered to do it over the phone or via text, i really don't want to be physically around him more then I have to. However he insisted it was a conversation that needed to take place "face to face".
I just left it, have not replied, just don't know what his game is with this.
What would you all do?
I would just tell him flat out that meeting face-to-face isn't happening. The best you can do is a phone call. If he continues to push just tell him that you are really busy, too busy to meet. He sounds like a bit of a narcissist and they like to manipulate people. Much easier done in person than over the phone. Stick to your guns.
Michka,
Children of divorce is a subject a ton of people bring up on here. Kids are resilient. That's first an foremost. The next thing you need to know is that children who go through divorces today are very different that kids who went through divorces decades ago. Parent now know better. They know how to support their kids better. They know that this affects them. They know signs to watch for and how to communicate. And that makes a world of difference. Gone are the days of packing up the car in the middle of the night to never see one or the other parent again. Or parents who act like the divorce is between the parents only and the kids are much like the lamps and china the court will handle it.
Divorces spiked in the US in the 1970s, peaked in the late 80s and petered out by the mid 90s. The statistic of 1 out of 2 marriages ends in divorce comes from that time period. It's closer to 1 out of 3.5 at this point. Less people feel obligated to marry at all. People are marrying older. People are marrying after co-habitating. It's made the concept of marriage mean more honestly. But there are more kids who don't have parents together than there are kids who are actual children of divorce. so anything you look up statistics-wise are kinda skewed.
I understand that with teaching you see how kids struggle when things are bad at home and that is a cause for concern, but I need you to understand how that anecdotal things doesn't really mean much for your kids. With your kids being so young they will know a life longer with you guys apart than they will with a life of you guys together. It will just becomes the course of things and it for the most part it won't affect them much. But every child handles this differently. I know people my age who still wish their parents would've gotten together and they've been divorced 30 years. I know kids my D included who will shout from the roof tops how happy they are that their parents got divorced. I know a family where there's 3 kids and they all have different feelings, one still thinks their parents might make it work, one is happy they split, and one is completely indifferent. They're all adults, they were all raised in the same houses by the same people, they all witnessed the same divorce.
When I was younger I couldn't really understand this. I had a horrible home life. Just awful. But I was a high honor roll student, national honors society, cheerleader, softball player, yearbook editor, singer etc. I worked. I had a boyfriend. I had good friendships. But I also attempted suicide more than once. I was abused at home in every way you can think of. Conversely there was a kid in my class who's family life was perfectly fine. He was comfortable financially. His mental health was good. But he was constantly in trouble. He had struggling grades. He hung out with the burn outs and ran through girlfriends. Nothing at home was wrong. He was just like that. Troubled student doesn't mean trouble at home. Trouble at home doesn't mean troubled student.
Living like that I thought kids who melted under the pressure of their parents splitting up were weak. I thought if I can live the way I do. Cover bruises with make-up and hide my pain from the world how are they falling apart over getting 2 Christmases. As grew up and worked through therapy I started to understand the plate theory. It's hard to look at one person's problems and not think 'OMG it's not that bad. Why are they being so dramatic?' But the thing is you don't know what kind of plate they are working with. Just because your plate could handle bearing that load doesn't mean someone else's can. Perhaps their plate is smaller. Perhaps their plate is a flimsy paper one while you are working with a strong ceramic plate. Perhaps when you're not looking they are holding a bunch of plates for other people. Point being not every one has the same coping skills. Not everyone processes information and trauma the same. Not everyone will react the same, even when the plates are all bought from the same store. Like a multikid family of divorce.
You just have to communicate with your kids. Pay attention to them. Do the best by them that you can. Don't put them in the middle of you and your stbxh. Don't let him put them in the middle. And hope for the best. You have no way to control or circumvent how this will affect the kids in the future. And it likely will effect them differently. Lots of kids have perfectly happy long lasting marriages even if their parents divorce. Lots of kids have commitment issues because of it. But you have no control over that. And only they have control to fix that when the time comes. You have to let go and let god, and be the best mom you can be. That's all you can control.