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So this was the last thing I posted about:
I had to talk with my STBXW yesterday because my son is getting close to the edge of appropriateness with girls on his phone. The conversation with her went very well; we stayed focused on my son the entire time.
But I will say, those conversations set me back. Its hard to explain - I guess its like pulling the scab off of a healing wound. Its not nearly as intense as the initial cut but it does do damage. The last two nights I've had dreams about her - I don't recall what they were about it. I think I'm doing good moving forward but those interactions remind me where I am. Also, mediation got canceled for today, which was nice since I was dreading it. Next session in two weeks.
The next day after this my son was on the phone with the same girl until 4am at my X's house. Anyhow, it got managed fine. Then I got the kids for the next five days which was great. Things went great with them and I just love having them around --now they are gone for the next five days.
I have some people coming over on Friday and then I have plans on Saturday too, so the weekend will be fine. I sent my X an email about the escalating costs for the divorce and asked her what she wanted the outcome to be. She wrote back saying she wanted her 50% plus support. I sent her a spreadsheet outlining what that looked like and asked if we could discuss it and heard nothing back. Over the next two weeks we have two meetings scheduled that will cost about $8k total. And our attorney's have been meeting to discuss things as well. Its really incredible. So far we've spent about $12k and I don't feel like we've gotten anywhere.
And then you all are going to love this -- I was supposed to get the kids for Easter but that represented some changes in the schedule that we decided on in January. I went back and reminded her about it and she said we should not make the change until next year. She then sighted the fact that we did Christmas this year at my house (which was before any negotiations) and said she would be willing to host Easter if I wanted to come over to her house.
Well, I fell for it. I was going to take my kids to FL for spring break to include Easter and then my X and I were going to flip some weekends around. When that fell through, I became less concerned with Easter and forgot that I was supposed to have them. So when she sent her "offer" I accepted it. I was shocked she invited me over - of course if she hadn't done that I'm sure I would have caught on and taken the kids with me.
Anyhow, I'm not going back to discuss it again. I am a little frustrated with it. If the next two mediations go bad then I will raise a stink about Easter.
In IC my counselor is working with me to listen to myself and my heart and to do what Brad wants not what other people expect of me or what others want. This is definitely an example of me not doing what I want. But there is still this stupid piece of me that wants to go over there, show her who I am now, in some weird hope that she changes her mind.
But what is so screwed up is that at the same time I don't want her back. She's a mess, a liar, and can't be trusted. My life is worse with her in it.
This is getting long, but oh well.
This past weekend I went to a BBQ with some friends and their wives. I really didn't know one of the women very well - I was shocked at how much they don't like my X. I mean they were saying some pretty gnarly stuff. In a weird way that felt validating for me, but I also felt bad for her that her reputation is so bad.
I also had an experience at the same party where my daughter hadn't eaten yet and one of the mom's offered to get her a plate. It was a weird experience because if my wife had done that while I was there I would have gotten chewed out for it. But when this woman did it she was so happy to just help out - I was able to relax and not worry. In the weirdest way it almost made me emotional.
I talked to my IC about that and about another incident where a woman was nice to me and he simply said "You just like being treated nice." That was actually profound. I haven't been treated nice in so long, with no strings attached, that when someone is nice to me I'm overwhelmed.
That is really screwed up. Anyhow, I'm rambling. That's all for now.
I talked to my IC about that and about another incident where a woman was nice to me and he simply said "You just like being treated nice." That was actually profound. I haven't been treated nice in so long, with no strings attached, that when someone is nice to me I'm overwhelmed.
Wait until you start having sex and women want to totally please you. It will blow your mind Brad lol.
Scott, what I will tell you is that whatever you decide with Easter, or coparenting, or mediation, etc, do it WITHOUT expectations! I am still seeing a bit of a tendency to have expectations.
Take the Easter plan. IF you can go there, stay the night, spend Easter around her and with the kids......WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS, then do it. IF you cannot then tell her you are out.
That is your goal...no expectations. And if you can't do something that is voluntary without them, then don't do it. There will come a time when you can do things with her and the kids without those expectations, but be honest with yourself about where you are in relation to expectations.
Wait until you start having sex and women want to totally please you. It will blow your mind.
Absolutely.
The more healthy you are, the better quality woman you will attract. All the MrNiceGuy traits need to be dropped. Add attractive traits to your behavior. This is a continuous self evaluation process.
I should re-read No More Mr Nice Guy.
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So this is interesting, to me at least; my wife is supposed to get my son on his birthday, but it is my day. So she posited that we all go to dinner to a special restaurant together as opposed to her just taking him.
She also replied to my email about negotiating the divorce between us and said that she hadn't had a chance to look at it and that she would get back to me on it.
I haven't replied about the dinner yet. It does seem odd to me that in the last two weeks she has asked that we do Easter together and now my son's birthday.
I went out to dinner with a friend last night and had a great time. He is about two years ahead of me on the same affair/divorce path. Its always interesting talking to him as he is also about 5 years older and has perspectives on this next phase of life. He's been dating a woman for about a year and it was interesting to hear about. Anyhow it was a great time.
Tonight our neighborhood is doing a progressive dinner and they are finishing at my house, so I have to ramp my place up to get it ready for a good time. Unfortunately its going to be a little cold out, but I'll get the music, darts, ping pong, and projector with the basketball going. Should be fun.
I should re-read No More Mr Nice Guy.
Yes you should!
So this is interesting, to me at least; my wife is supposed to get my son on his birthday, but it is my day. So she posited that we all go to dinner to a special restaurant together as opposed to her just taking him.
The opposite of what Marie- Antoinette said "Don't let her eat cake!"
She also replied to my email about negotiating the divorce between us and said that she hadn't had a chance to look at it and that she would get back to me on it.
Don't hold your breath!
I haven't replied about the dinner yet. It does seem odd to me that in the last two weeks she has asked that we do Easter together and now my son's birthday.
Why does it seem odd?
I went out to dinner with a friend last night and had a great time. He is about two years ahead of me on the same affair/divorce path. Its always interesting talking to him as he is also about 5 years older and has perspectives on this next phase of life. He's been dating a woman for about a year and it was interesting to hear about. Anyhow it was a great time.
Great!
Tonight our neighborhood is doing a progressive dinner and they are finishing at my house, so I have to ramp my place up to get it ready for a good time. Unfortunately its going to be a little cold out, but I'll get the music, darts, ping pong, and projector with the basketball going. Should be fun.
Sounds like a great time!
ScottB,
It does seem odd to me that in the last two weeks she has asked that we do Easter together and now my son's birthday.
I don't know what the "right" thing is to do, but bet most on here would say she's trying to have her cake and eat it too. Maybe feels bad about the divorce and wants to share the time with the kid and have family time before she runs off for good. I'd recommend doing what you feel is best for
you and your son, without regard with what she wants/is best for her.
I went out to dinner with a friend last night and had a great time. He is about two years ahead of me on the same affair/divorce path. Its always interesting talking to him as he is also about 5 years older and has perspectives on this next phase of life. He's been dating a woman for about a year and it was interesting to hear about. Anyhow it was a great time.
I'd be very interested to hear what he had to say on this if you're willing to share.
Tonight our neighborhood is doing a progressive dinner and they are finishing at my house, so I have to ramp my place up to get it ready for a good time. Unfortunately its going to be a little cold out, but I'll get the music, darts, ping pong, and projector with the basketball going. Should be fun.
Sounds like great GAL! Have fun!
I'd be very interested to hear what he had to say on this if you're willing to share.
I'd be willing to share. What do you want to know?
I'd be very interested to hear what he had to say on this if you're willing to share.
I'd be willing to share. What do you want to know?
LH - Nothing specific. ScottB just mentioned his friend's perspectives being 2yrs ahead on the path are interesting, so was curious. But would love to hear anything you'd like to say on the matter as well.
So this is interesting, to me at least; my wife is supposed to get my son on his birthday, but it is my day. So she posited that we all go to dinner to a special restaurant together as opposed to her just taking him.
Interesting in what way? I am afraid, as I stated before, that you attach significance to this. "Oh she wants to celebrate his birthday together! Maybe she is having second thoughts!" This is why mindreading is a cheeseless tunnel. Almost all WAWs want to remain friends with their LBH. We've got LBHs here that have WAWs living apart that want to borrow tools from their LBH, call and talk to them for hours at a time, etc. Just because she doesn't want to be married to you anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want you in her life. I had an ex-GF that kept me hanging on like this FOR DECADES!! Not fun, I do not recommend it. Likely she will try to make you a BFF, and only you can decide how much of that you will allow.
"I am not sure what "my wife is supposed to get my son on his birthday, but it is my day" means. Ambiguous child custody planning like this will cause conflicts like this all the time. You need to fix it moving forward. And I find it interesting you still call her "my wife". My STBXW is more like it.
She also replied to my email about negotiating the divorce between us and said that she hadn't had a chance to look at it and that she would get back to me on it.
ROFL! Typical lazy WAS D garbage. And so many LBSs get tripped up. "They must not be very into getting D because they keep dragging their feet on the D!" No, it means they are lazy, already have what they want (living on their own, etc) and are in no hurry to do the hard work that is necessary to end a marriage. Usually what happens, unless the LBS pushes it along, the WAS lets it languish until they meet someone new and want to get remarried, then suddenly they are all about getting it done as quickly as possible.
Do not put any significance on this!
I haven't replied about the dinner yet. It does seem odd to me that in the last two weeks she has asked that we do Easter together and now my son's birthday.
"I've thought about it and it is probably better to do our own things for Easter and S's birthday. Let's work out an arrangement that we both can agree to. This is what I am thinking:" then out line your idea. Simple. To the point. And gets you to a better place not only now, but also for future.
I went out to dinner with a friend last night and had a great time. He is about two years ahead of me on the same affair/divorce path. Its always interesting talking to him as he is also about 5 years older and has perspectives on this next phase of life. He's been dating a woman for about a year and it was interesting to hear about. Anyhow it was a great time.
Tonight our neighborhood is doing a progressive dinner and they are finishing at my house, so I have to ramp my place up to get it ready for a good time. Unfortunately its going to be a little cold out, but I'll get the music, darts, ping pong, and projector with the basketball going. Should be fun.
Keep up the great GAL!!!
Hi Scott,
I should re-read No More Mr Nice Guy.
I took notes from all the books I read. I re-read the notes, not the books. Kinda like the quotes thread. I read threads once, but if something catches my eye, I grab that and put it in my thread so I can re-read them over time.
The key is continually changing(improving) your behavior. Be more attractive every day with the wisdom you acquire.
So this is interesting, to me at least; my wife is supposed to get my son on his birthday, but it is my day. So she posited that we all go to dinner to a special restaurant together as opposed to her just taking him.
Sounds like you have agreed to "Alternating Birthdays" as an exception to the normal parenting plan and this is her year. If this is true, you don't go. Plain and simple. You celebrate the birthday on a different day during your parenting time. The kids have two birthday celebrations. One with Mom. One with DAD.
H:"W, I have thought about your proposal and I believe it is best if you and S celebrate without me. I have plans to celebrate with him on Saturday(or whatever)."
Less words always has more effect. Use the least amount to get your point across. There are times when being vague are effective.
I appreciate the advise, but its tough. Being invited to hang out with my kids and saying no is tough. Not to mention, when it comes up I'm betting she will tell the kids "I invited your father but he didn't want to come."
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I had an interesting moment in mediation yesterday. Recognize that we first had a 3 hour call for her attorney to ask me questions about my business to put a value on it. Then yesterday we had a 2.5 hour call. Recognize that every hour costs about $1200.
At the end of the second call, we had literally gotten no closer to the actual valuation. My attorney, myself, the mediator, and her attorney were discussing the value and whether or not STBXW would accept the value that I had placed on the business. I'm watching this happen and losing my mind because we are all talking about my STBXW and she is in the virtual meeting.
So finally I say to everyone, "STBXW is on the call, why don't we just ask her?" Then her attorney said "I haven't had a chance to talk with her yet" and again I said, "yes, but we can just ask her, she is in the meeting?"
Then her attorney went off on me and said I could direct my comments to her. It was insane. On each of these calls I am peppered with questions. I couldn't believe it.
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So after the call I spoke with my attorney who relayed to me that her attorney had complained that I was pressuring STBXW to settle. I referenced in earlier posts my email correspondence with STBXW. I guess my STBXW wants me to stop - but she had asked for my numbers and what I thought it should look like. And then after that she invited me to the birthday dinner for my son and Easter, Its completely Freaking insane.
Yesterday was really frustrating.
Moving forward I think we might be getting closer to figuring everything out. Through it all I continue to see what a complete and utter mess my STBXW. She's a freaking dumpster fire. I spend half my day cussing her. And at this point, bar none, marrying her goes down as the worst life decision I ever made.
Though maybe taking her back after the affair actually goes down as the biggest mistake. At the same time I will always be able to look my kids in the eye and tell them I did everything that I could to save the family.
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Almost done, I just remembered, at my progressive dinner (which didn't end till 3am -woof.) one of the women asked me if my wife had an affair. I just looked at her and said, "you know the answer to that"; she then replied that everyone knows.
That is a women that is in my neighborhood and also very involved in the kids school (which is very small and private). So basically everyone knows. That has probably put a lot of miserable pressure on my STBXW over the past 4 years and it will continue to be something she deals with going forward. Other women do not respect cheaters that rip families apart.
I was talking to the same woman about my son and how angry he seems to be about everything and she said he has to know. Again she made the point that if all the parents know, then one of the kids has to know and probably said something to him. I haven't really seen a clear sign of that - but its all sad.
Anyhow, I'm just trying to get through the divorce at this point and move on. Once I know the terms I can focus on making good decisions for myself going forward and rebuilding.
I appreciate the advise, but its tough. Being invited to hang out with my kids and saying no is tough. Not to mention, when it comes up I'm betting she will tell the kids "I invited your father but he didn't want to come."
Why does that scare you? "Remember that talk about divorce? Mommy and Daddy are divorced and live separately. I love you and celebrate your birthday here. She loves you and celebrates your birthday there." If my ex offered this I would decline unless there were special circumstances.
If it's "normally your day", presumably she has a pick-up and/or drop-off time. For a simple family birthday, I would celebrate during your custody on that day, the day before, or the day after.
Scott, unless the LBH is willing to just let her have whatever she asks for, these things always have a way of turning ugly. I am sure she is being a bit conniving and manipulative with the mixed messages: Do not ask me questions directly in the mediation sessions, but oh come celebrate Easter and birthday as a family! WWs in particular are masters at playing with the LBH's heads. In my sitch my WW would talk about having friends over later that year, and then the next was talking about looking at apartments. It is surreal. Gaslighting. Just plain confusing.
The best thing you can do is get your kids into IC. Many here that went through D have done that and it seems to help the kids process everything.
Now that I think about it, I smell a rat here. I would be VERY careful about accepting her invitations to Easter and the birthday. Could be a setup.
That is a women that is in my neighborhood and also very involved in the kids school (which is very small and private). So basically everyone knows. That has probably put a lot of miserable pressure on my STBXW over the past 4 years and it will continue to be something she deals with going forward. Other women do not respect cheaters that rip families apart.
Poor baby having to deal with the consequences of her actions.
So a couple things happened since we last hung out on the boards.
1) I went to a friendly dinner with a woman. It was a lot of fun. Grabbed dinner at 6:45p and ended up closing the place down. This woman is looking to get married and have kids but is new to the area. I was very clear that I am not looking for any kind of a relationship. We met through a friend, and I was bored and just called her up to go to dinner. It was fun, I don't think anything much more will come of it.
Being older and going out is definitely different. I picked up on a lot of the little things that she dropped that in my opinion were tests. Like "well you don't want to have kids, do you?" It was kind of funny and it was fun.
2) I did go to dinner with my Ex and the kids last night to a very nice restaurant for my son's birthday. I do think it meant a lot to him, because I asked him and he said it did. Her and I didn't talk at all about ourselves, not one question about what's been happening in our lives - which did make for a bit of a quiet table, but my daughter was very talkative.
I was paying attention a lot to my feelings - as that is something we're working on in IC. Its interesting to me how on one level I despise her and I would not want anything to do with her ever again in a marriage relationship. The negatives are dramatic and I know that most other woman would be more supportive, will treat me better, and I assume wouldn't cheat on me. She looks like she's struggling but trying to put on a brave face. Her hair continues to thin and she's put on weight. I feel bad for her.
But emotionally I was surprised that I still do have feelings for her. I'll continue to work through them and they're not the crazy feelings that make me want to pull all the stops out and try to save this thing - I just find it odd how my logic and feelings are at such odds - and I think that's something good to be aware of. I think it probably helps me process my anger at times and other things that are happening.
After the night was over I did send her a text.
"I have so much to say to you that will never be said. I still have feelings for you, and those are mine to work through. I do hope you find your happiness."
Why'd I send it and what did I expect back?
I got nothing back, which was expected. I guess I sent it so that she would know she still has a chance. Its closing, but there is still a small window. It was a combination of a warning that the window is closing, while also letting her know there is an open door.
We have mediation again on Wednesday. I expect that we will get through a good amount of stuff. I think we'll get this tied up and file by the end of April. And then its over, for now. I'll be better off with this behind me. I'm still grieving the loss though I'm not sure what I lost. I fear I've lost the ability to give my heart to someone again - but maybe in time I'll heal that part too. I just can't see that at this time.
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There's a lot here to kick my butt about, and that's fine. I'm just trying to work through a challenging time and I don't regret any of the decisions I've made, except maybe for that text - but even then, I'm glad I sent that message.
I have no idea what to make of what I just read. You are all over the board my friend.
Why are you glad you sent the message?
What was accomplished?
No butt kicking from me. You did what you felt you had to do. Now that your hunches about not getting a reply were confirmed, you can continue on your path of growth and maturity. Focus on yourself, focus on the kids, focus on your career and take your focus off the X. Clearly there is nothing to be gained with the focus remaining on her.
Stay strong buddy, you still have a lot of healing to do.
V
Scotty B just do you know if she wants you back she shouldn’t walk through an open door. She’s should have to beat the fuching door down.
...
After the night was over I did send her a text.
"I have so much to say to you that will never be said. I still have feelings for you, and those are mine to work through. I do hope you find your happiness."
Why'd I send it and what did I expect back?
I got nothing back, which was expected. I guess I sent it so that she would know she still has a chance. Its closing, but there is still a small window. It was a combination of a warning that the window is closing, while also letting her know there is an open door.
I say this as someone who is guilty of similar (as many of us here probably are): Make sure you know you wrote this for yourself, not as informational for her, because you needed her to know you still have feelings, for whatever reason. She doesn't need to know whether the door is open or not...she didn't need your permission to leave the M, she doesn't need it to try and come back. I believe if she wants to come back she will make it clear to you. Only then do you need to decide if the window is closed or not. But as LH indicates, any R needs to come with conditions and ground rules, or else she's going to see that she can do anything she wants in the M and all this is probably going to happen again.
Like Vapo said, healing yourself without worrying about her is now your top priority (along with being a good dad of course). Drop the rope. Easier said than done I know. Hang in there.
1) I went to a friendly dinner with a woman. It was a lot of fun. Grabbed dinner at 6:45p and ended up closing the place down. This woman is looking to get married and have kids but is new to the area. I was very clear that I am not looking for any kind of a relationship. We met through a friend, and I was bored and just called her up to go to dinner. It was fun, I don't think anything much more will come of it.
Being older and going out is definitely different. I picked up on a lot of the little things that she dropped that in my opinion were tests. Like "well you don't want to have kids, do you?" It was kind of funny and it was fun.
But emotionally I was surprised that I still do have feelings for her. I'll continue to work through them and they're not the crazy feelings that make me want to pull all the stops out and try to save this thing - I just find it odd how my logic and feelings are at such odds - and I think that's something good to be aware of. I think it probably helps me process my anger at times and other things that are happening.
After the night was over I did send her a text.
"I have so much to say to you that will never be said. I still have feelings for you, and those are mine to work through. I do hope you find your happiness."
Why'd I send it and what did I expect back?
I got nothing back, which was expected. I guess I sent it so that she would know she still has a chance.
Those are two quotes I cannot square in my head.
Went on a date.
Still have feelings for your STBXW and want her to know she still as a chance.
I really think LBSs struggle enough without choosing things that further confuse yourself. On #1, there were no male buddies that you could have hung with? I really think a lot of LBHs struggle because they've let their male friendships go by the wayside over the years. Next time you have the urge to ask a woman out, before you've "worked through your feelings for your STBXW" I would highly suggest reaching out to male friends to hang out with instead.
I picked up on a lot of the little things that she dropped that in my opinion were tests. Like "well you don't want to have kids, do you?"
I don't know if I would consider that the kind of test woman do with men.
My example:
Random woman at bar ask: "Will you buy me a drink?"
Man failing the test: "Yes, what would you like?"
Man passing the test: "Absolutely....After you buy me a drink." smile /wink
One simple question determines how supplicating the guy is. Other tests might indicate to her if he a high value or low value guy.
The important thing for you to figure out are what tests is your W doing with you and are you passing? Obviously you failed a lot of tests in the past and she decided she wanted to D you. This is where fixing you comes in. You stop behaving in ways that are unattractive to woman. You start behaving in ways that are attractive.
Every interaction with her is an opportunity to pass or fail more tests. Interacting with other woman can be a distraction, or it can be practice. I won't judge you either way.
It is important to get to a point where you interact with your W the same way you would interact with any other single woman. You do this is an attractive male way.
How different are you from when you first showed up here? Does she see you different? Do you? Are you gaining respect? Are you setting boundaries?
After the night was over I did send her a text.
"I have so much to say to you that will never be said. I still have feelings for you, and those are mine to work through. I do hope you find your happiness."
I guess I don't get it, you told her that there are things to say that you won't say? Seems weird to tell her that. Maybe just tell her or don't tell her, you know? But, this is the same gal planning to rake you over the coals in regards to your business right?
Her lawyer is telling her that you are pressuring for a settlement - whether you are or not - so this text could really come off as manipulative. It's safer to assume the worst intentions in a divorce typically.
So basically everyone knows. That has probably put a lot of miserable pressure on my STBXW over the past 4 years and it will continue to be something she deals with going forward. Other women do not respect cheaters that rip families apart.
Most divorces involve a third party. So, many of the people you were talking to have likely fallen on either side of that. I wouldn't get hung up on it, it's just a fact of life.
I feel for you Scott. This is tough. But you seem to be making progress on detaching from her, so that is great! Keep busy.
Scotty B you win the quote of the day:
“To become your most attractive self, you must create a life and lifestyle that makes it easy for you to be happy, smile and find lots of easy ways to laugh, have fun, learn something and enjoy the gift of your life. Everyone loves being around happy, attractive and fun people who are living life to the fullest. Don’t look for someone to complete you or make you happy. Become the kind of person who is in great shape, happy being single, having fun by themselves and open to the possibility of finding someone special to share their completeness with. You can’t give away what you don’t already have for yourself.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Things continue on.
The divorce is proceeding, which is good. I'm worn out with the days I've got the kids to myself. We have a lot of activities going on right now and its a lot on my own. I feel like work is improving some.
I've gone out on a couple of dates. I met a real nice girl - and I really mean that. She's never been married, no kids, just two years younger. She's really cute, fit, and very successful. Super sweet. Our first time out was not a date, it was just dinner but we ended up talking until they kicked us out at midnight.
She has her pain from her past and I have mine, and we've shared those stories. We've only been out three times, but it has been nice.
The ex is the ex. I try not to see or talk or deal with her, but for the kids sake I feel like I got to balance being an A-hole with my space.
The girl I mentioned above is someone I could probably get serious with, and so I'm trying to take my time and make sure I'm not moving too fast - I did not intend to start something. To be honest, I was more interested in a couple of flings, but this one is pretty good - she could be for real, though the timing isn't great because I do thing I shouldn't jump into anything.
Because of this new woman I can see more holes in my relationship than I had already seen. I was never really able to share my whole self with my ex; there were parts of me that she didn't seem to want to know or understand, and when I would share those parts, the most vulnerable parts she would hurt me with them or accuse me of manipulation.
This new woman seems to accept those parts. She seems to want to know me in a different way, she's curious and kind and seems trustworthy. Now I get it, its soon, etc. etc.; that's not the point. The point is that I can see things and I am learning. And with that learning will come growth. The next woman I'm fully with, I need to make sure that she accepts all of me. Not just the successful, athletic, fit, self but also the other stuff - the more vulnerable creative, parts.
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Anyhow, I think of you all as friends. You've been very good to me and very kind over the past year and a half since I began posting. I really appreciate what the veterans here do. There were times when I had no one to talk to and this message board was there for me. Thank you. I appreciate all of you.
Hey Scott,
I've been in this situation a few times. Be very careful.
If you haven't healed from your previous relationship, you will naturally and subconsciously attract other broken people.
There's a saying that I think rings true because I've experienced it myself, as have others... broken attracts broken.
Keep your emotional attachment with this new woman in check, it's a very slippery slope.
She has her pain from her past and I have mine, and we've shared those stories. We've only been out three times, but it has been nice.
uuuummmm no! Hangout have fun and hook up.
The ex is the ex. I try not to see or talk or deal with her, but for the kids sake I feel like I got to balance being an A-hole with my space.
Why do you have to be an a-hole? Because you professed your undying love to her again and she rebuffed you?
The girl I mentioned above is someone I could probably get serious with, and so I'm trying to take my time and make sure I'm not moving too fast
You are noving too fast. You are not even divorced and just told your W you will give her another chance.
Because of this new woman I can see more holes in my relationship than I had already seen.
What???? 3 dates
This new woman seems to accept those parts.
What???? 3 dates
She seems to want to know me in a different way, she's curious and kind and seems trustworthy.
What???? 3 dates
The next woman I'm fully with, I need to make sure that she accepts all of me. Not just the successful, athletic, fit, self but also the other stuff - the more vulnerable creative, parts.
Somebody has a high opinion of themselves lol.
Anyhow, I think of you all as friends. You've been very good to me and very kind over the past year and a half since I began posting. I really appreciate what the veterans here do. There were times when I had no one to talk to and this message board was there for me. Thank you. I appreciate all of you.
You're welcome!
ScottB, here is the problem:
- Are you interested in New Woman because it appears over with STBXW?
- Or are you over STBXW because of your new interest in New Woman?
This is why I highly highly highly suggest NOT dating until after you have worked through the emotional baggage with an Ex. You will NEVER be able to truthfully answer the two questions above because truth be told you don't even know! You can convince yourself that the answer is yes to question #1.....but you will never really know because of the cloud of question #2!
So here is what happens: You struggle letting go of STBXW. Then New Woman comes along and suddenly you are over your STBXW and ready to move on. Things move quickly. You end up rushing into a new R, get married. A few years go by and suddenly the same issues that were present in your first MR begin to creep into the second MR.
This is a common tale. It is so common that when you look at the rate of D of second and third marriages it is much higher than the 50% first MR D rate. Why? Because people do not do the work before starting a new R. My concern for you here is that just a couple of weeks ago you were wanting to contact STBXW and tell her you were open to one last chance. Then suddenly you meet New Woman and are all in on moving on from STBXW. Shortcutting the end of one R to start another very rarely ends well.
Broken attracts broken. New Woman is only 2 years younger than you and never been married. You kind of have to wonder why, don't you?
Broken attracts broken. New Woman is only 2 years younger than you and never been married. You kind of have to wonder why, don't you?
Be careful there with judgment Steve. Not everyone believes you have to be married because society says so. Maybe she doesn't believe in marriage. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her.
Hey Scott! Ginger has the gift of brevity.
I got to balance being an A-hole with my space.
You're hurt at being rejected, and you maybe haven't worked through that pain? Being an A-hole is not beneficial to reconciliation, settling, co-parenting, or a happy life.
She has her pain from her past and I have mine, and we've shared those stories. I was never really able to share my whole self with my ex; there were parts of me that she didn't seem to want to know or understand, and when I would share those parts, the most vulnerable parts she would hurt me with them or accuse me of manipulation.This new woman seems to accept those parts
See why Ginger says, "trauma bond"? If I go on a first, second, third date with someone and ex-pain becomes a significant conversational topic, I'm very likely skee-daddling for the next match. Now, MsOneMonth (who I dated a year ago too soon during a break with my ex) probed this area on maybe our 3rd date (unsuccessfully) to see if I had baggage. MsMyPeaks(28F) asked if I get along with my ex-wife on our 2-hour "not-a-date". I'm like, "Yeah, it was 10yrs ago, we co-parent pretty well." I'm not "hiding" anything, it's not a strategic answer, I'm not "holding back", I'm just 98% over whatever wrongs happened.
It would be hypocritical not to acknowledge I've done the same thing--so did Fireman and Wolfman. Rebounds feel good. There are studies showing they can help you get over your ex. I guess the yellow flags here are: (1) You're taking your rebound seriously without first figuring out what's important in your next partner and how to avoid past mistakes, and (2) After this fizzles, as rebounds tend to, you may want R again and this makes that less likely. Will it have been worth it?
New Woman is only 2 years younger than you and never been married. You kind of have to wonder why, don't you?
Be careful there with judgment Steve. Not everyone believes you have to be married because society says so. Maybe she doesn't believe in marriage. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her.
An article, "HARDER TO FIND GOOD PARTNERS AFTER 30", points out while 50% of people have a secure attachment style, only 25% of singles over 30 do. I think this speaks to the duality of the situation--many of us are single for a reason, but 1 out of 4 are highly eligible and available for no good reason. (:
The most important part, I think, is to be that 1 out of 4 people.
You can "Next" a bad match, but if you ARE a bad match, well, wherever you go, there you are.
New Woman is only 2 years younger than you and never been married. You kind of have to wonder why, don't you?
Be careful there with judgment Steve. Not everyone believes you have to be married because society says so. Maybe she doesn't believe in marriage. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her.
An article, "HARDER TO FIND GOOD PARTNERS AFTER 30", points out while 50% of people have a secure attachment style, only 25% of singles over 30 do. I think this speaks to the duality of the situation--many of us are single for a reason, but 1 out of 4 are highly eligible and available for no good reason. (:
The most important part, I think, is to be that 1 out of 4 people.
You can "Next" a bad match, but if you ARE a bad match, well, wherever you go, there you are.
Part of my caution to Scott is that there is a reason she never married. Not believing in marriage, when Scott clearly does, would be part of that caution!
Maybe she just hasn’t found anyone she wants to spend the rest of her life with?
How do you know Scotty still believes in marriage?
...I got to balance being an A-hole
Big difference between behaving as an A-hole and getting your core beliefs, actions and words in alignment with new positive behaviors.
Each woman is a unique opportunity to learn more about yourself as well another person. Practicing new behavior skills while single is also extremely important. There are some extremely wonderful women out there. Sifting for the one that gives you all four types of love is worth it.
... this message board was there for me.....
Great bunch of people.
Nah. There’s a misunderstanding- this isnt trauma bonding.
And I’m interested because I’m interested - she’s interesting. So is Kristi and Christine. Maybe I should be hanging with the fellas, i don’t know. But Jill is different. And I agree about rushing. I’ve brought this up in IC. For better or worse, I don’t get the feeling he thinks I’m rushing. I’m scared and aware of rushing, so I’ll probably take too much time, that feels more likely in a weird way. I don’t know.
And maybe divorce In a second marriage isn’t about people not doing the work; maybe instead they understand their value and don’t put up with BS as long - i know i won’t again.
On the A-Hole thing, I’m aware, that’s the first step. I did invite her in out of the cold to sit in my car. I just don’t cowtoe or placate her.
On this girl - she called off her wedding on her wedding day after dealing with some stuff. She wanted to see it through but the night before the wedding he made it clear he was not going to be a good partner. I can’t fault someone for the courage t took to call Something off as opposed to making a huge mistake.
And LH has a point, is marriage even the “goal”? I’m not so sure-one day at a time.
R2C is spot on in my opinion. I’m learning a lot about myself through interactions with other women. And I’m learning a lot about why my marriage didn’t work, what I want and need, what I like, etc.
Scotty B,
Enjoy your singleness and interactions with other women. Don’t get all wrapped up in one woman because it is way to soon for you. Keep it light and have fun. Be in the moment.
Nah. There’s a misunderstanding- this isnt trauma bonding.
And I’m interested because I’m interested - she’s interesting. So is Kristi and Christine. Maybe I should be hanging with the fellas, i don’t know. But Jill is different. And I agree about rushing. I’ve brought this up in IC. For better or worse, I don’t get the feeling he thinks I’m rushing. I’m scared and aware of rushing, so I’ll probably take too much time, that feels more likely in a weird way. I don’t know.
I would prefer for your sake you take too much time, instead of ending up back her in a new MR.
And maybe divorce In a second marriage isn’t about people not doing the work; maybe instead they understand their value and don’t put up with BS as long - i know i won’t again.
Disagree. Wholeheartedly. I believe second marriages fail at a higher rate because broken attracts broken. Either both or one of the Ss in a second marriage never dealt with their emotional baggage, carry it into a new R, and eventually that rears its ugly head. But I won't try to convince you, I just pray you don't learn this the hard way.
On the A-Hole thing, I’m aware, that’s the first step. I did invite her in out of the cold to sit in my car. I just don’t cowtoe or placate her.
As I've stated before, it isn't like your sitch is brand new. I would rather you trend towards the jerk end of the spectrum rather than the marshmallow end. So many LBSs try to nice their WAS back. And while you can't mean her back either, being a little distant or cold is better than being too available and present. Read Steve_'s thread to see what I mean!
On this girl - she called off her wedding on her wedding day after dealing with some stuff. She wanted to see it through but the night before the wedding he made it clear he was not going to be a good partner. I can’t fault someone for the courage t took to call Something off as opposed to making a huge mistake.
Can't disagree with this. However, it raises other questions. Like why wait until the day of the wedding to recognize he wouldn't be a good partner? Seems like something that could have been figured out long before then. And remember, you are hearing one side of the story. There are always three: Yours, Mine and The Truth
And LH has a point, is marriage even the “goal”? I’m not so sure-one day at a time.
I've been accused of thrusting my morals on others in this forum....so I won't. But I will ask you to examine your own moral compass on this. Are meaningless flings with no commitment what ScottB wants?
R2C is spot on in my opinion. I’m learning a lot about myself through interactions with other women. And I’m learning a lot about why my marriage didn’t work, what I want and need, what I like, etc.
I don't necessarily agree with R2C's theories on interacting with women. But hey it works for him. Maybe it will work for you. But I think you need to honestly look at the questions I asked above: Are you interacting with women because you are over your STBXW? Or are you trying to get over your STBXW by interacting with women?
Answering yes to the second question, in my humble and meaningless opinion, is not a healthy approach.
And yes, by all means! Find some fellas to hang with! Hanging with my buddies in the thick of my sitch saved my sanity.
Steve - as always, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that I need to take my time. I'm not needy; I don't need a woman in my life. I do like women though. Being with one does keep me from being with many, which is actually kind of healthy for me.
And I won't nice her back, because I don't want her back.
On the moral compass - I know you went through some of this - see it to the other side and examine how it impacts your worldview. Let me tell you, it will shake it and you will re-assess everything.
This is a great question: Are you interacting with women because you are over your STBXW? Or are you trying to get over your STBXW by interacting with women?
Steve - Women have always been a weakness of mine. Now that I'm not tied to one, I am enjoying interacting with many. Is it a coping strategy> I'm not sure. But I enjoy it. Tonight I have a date with a beautiful woman. Tomorrow night I have a date with another. I've got lots of the kids sporting events almost every night, so I get to see them right now all the time.
I need to carve out time for my friends - but they're all married and busy. I don't know. I'm busy, having fun, not depressed, learning a lot about myself, working out, eating healthy and not drinking as much (though I never thought it was a lot anyhow).
I just need to get the divorce behind me. The only thing that flusters me is getting emails about it. I want it over with so I know what I have to work with and I can move on.
LH - I'm trying to slow it down with this woman I like a lot; I figure if I can go out with some other women then I might get clarity on whether or not she's the real deal. I know that I'm just coming out of a marriage and I can't jump into something else without getting clarity. But, she's a sweet girl and I don't want to blow her off because of the timing. Tough decisions.
And I won't nice her back, because I don't want her back.
"I have so much to say to you that will never be said. I still have feelings for you, and those are mine to work through. I do hope you find your happiness."
Why'd I send it and what did I expect back?
I got nothing back, which was expected. I guess I sent it so that she would know she still has a chance. Its closing, but there is still a small window. It was a combination of a warning that the window is closing, while also letting her know there is an open door.
Scotty B you just posted the above two weeks ago. You are all over the board. You are making decisions based on emotion and kind of acting like a woman.
Steve - Women have always been a weakness of mine.
What do you mean? Have you stepped outside your marriage?
Now that I'm not tied to one, I am enjoying interacting with many. Is it a coping strategy> I'm not sure. But I enjoy it. Tonight I have a date with a beautiful woman. Tomorrow night I have a date with another.
That's ok as long as you are honest with your intentions.
I'm busy, having fun, not depressed, learning a lot about myself, working out, eating healthy and not drinking as much (though I never thought it was a lot anyhow).
Great!
LH - I'm trying to slow it down with this woman I like a lot; I figure if I can go out with some other women then I might get clarity on whether or not she's the real deal. I know that I'm just coming out of a marriage and I can't jump into something else without getting clarity. But, she's a sweet girl and I don't want to blow her off because of the timing. Tough decisions.
LOL! You have been on 3 dates you barely know this woman. She could have a penis for all you know.
I think as a healthy single woman, if I knew you sent that email 2 weeks ago to your not even ex wife, I would run for the hills.
And I think it’s cr@ppy when people date to just to fill their time and just “interact”. IMHO.
Your “weakness for women” may have contributed to where you are at right now perhaps?
I think as a healthy single woman, if I knew you sent that email 2 weeks ago to your not even ex wife, I would run for the hills.
Your “weakness for women” may have contributed to where you are at right now perhaps?
This and this Scotty. Something to think about honestly.
Scotty B you win the quote of the day:
Men who have choices and options with women are in no hurry or rush to lock a woman down to a commitment. They take their time and carefully evaluate how their dates went and then contemplate on whether or not the women are a good fit, good for them, good to them and if the women are likeable enough to continue investing time, money and effort getting to know them. Men who have little to no choice with women are in a rush, impatient and driven by fear to lock women down to a commitment before some other guy comes along and steals them away. Women like men who are a challenge, men who they have to make a mutual effort to keep around. Despite what women say, they like a guy more if they are unsure of his interest, he’s mysterious and unpredictable.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Love the quotes, LH19.
I believe what he says applies equally to "People who are unhappy alone."
"People who are unhappy alone are in a rush, impatient and driven by fear to lock <partners> down to a commitment before some other <person> comes along and steals them away." I know once upon a time, even when dating and sleeping with multiple women simultaneously--I had choices--I was in a hurry to lock-down a commitment. Rushing is definitely not the best way to find a great long-term partner.
Love the quotes, LH19.
I believe what he says applies equally to "People who are unhappy alone."
"People who are unhappy alone are in a rush, impatient and driven by fear to lock <partners> down to a commitment before some other <person> comes along and steals them away." I know once upon a time, even when dating and sleeping with multiple women simultaneously--I had choices--I was in a hurry to lock-down a commitment. Rushing is definitely not the best way to find a great long-term partner.
Nailed it!
LH - No, I never stepped outside my marriage. I guess what I meant by Women have always been a weakness is that when I was single I always enjoyed the company of a woman. Being in a relationship with one woman that is committed probably saved me from a lot of bad decisions.
I guess what I meant by Women have always been a weakness is that when I was single I always enjoyed the company of a woman.
Why is this a weakness. I love being around women who are happy.
Being in a relationship with one woman that is committed probably saved me from a lot of bad decisions.
What kind of bad decisions?
LH - No, I never stepped outside my marriage. I guess what I meant by Women have always been a weakness is that when I was single I always enjoyed the company of a woman. Being in a relationship with one woman that is committed probably saved me from a lot of bad decisions.
I think this is more of a symptom of something deeper than "a problem with women". People that have a problem with women can't remain faithful to one woman. Your deeper issue is more along the lines of needing a woman in your life to feel secure and have a high self-esteem.
But to excuse your need to have a woman around you by simply stating "I've always had a problem with women" is dismissive of a deeper issue as to why you need to have a woman in your life ot feel secure and have self-esteem.
Every thing that DB tries to do is to get a LBS to realize that they can be happy on their own! And I would say this is a huge gauge of whether you are ready to move forward healthy and happy: can you be happy being alone, not in an R, not dating other women, for a period of time. If the answer to that is no, then there is still work to do. Your W could have lost her life suddenly in some way, and in the same way you would have to take the appropriate time to mourn the loss before moving on. I doubt the day after her funeral you would immediately start swiping left and right on Tinder until you dealt with your grief. And did whatever work you needed (including IC!) to move forward and be healthy enough to attract healthy potential Rs in the future.
I received the division of assets from her team and it was only off of my expectation by $100k. The support figure was spot on what I expected. I still do not feel good about the overall situation but getting the numbers a bit tighter is good.
I am hopeful that we file sometime in June which should put this chapter to bed, allowing me to focus on the next one.
I am slowly finding more peace in my situation. I don't want her back nor do I believe I would take her back. She is duplicitous and has drug me through the mud, of course I allowed her to do it.
I think getting the divorce done will be healthy and I think the backside of this is going to be for the better. I feel bad for my ex. She is an unhappy, confused woman. I feel bad for my kids too, but I'll just do the best I can for them.
My parents come back to town this weekend from being snowbirds, which will be nice. All and all, I'm feeling good about things today and hopeful.
Peace!
Keep working, Scott! Onward and upward!
She is an unhappy, confused woman.
How do you know?
LH - I'm speculating.
Doesn't matter. I pray that she is happy. Today I think I prayed that for the first time and meant it, in a while. I'm doing good. She can do whatever. I've moved on.
I did the same based on what the kids would tell me about her being miserable. Then I realized that's just her demeanor. Always has been. She has never once shown any indication she didn't make the right choice for herself.
As DNJ likes to say "feelings are fleeting". About a month ago you emailed her asking for another chance. Learning to control your feelings and emotions is a powerful thing Scotty B.
So I've been thinking that I'm doing pretty good. And I believe I have been.
For the first time in a long time, today is a tougher day. I think its a combination of things. I was dating a woman and we had a good argument - it probably makes sense for that to end and for me to take a break. At work I had a meeting that I just did not perform well in, in front of peers - it made me feel my lack of capacity in my mental state.
Last Friday I went over the property settlement with my attorney and we've been talking about that a lot since to get it right.
I then went through an old folder, looking for old statements and it had so much in there. Pictures of the family, cards from her and the kids, as well as cards from colleague's over the years - it all made me feel a bit melancholy and sad.
The good news is that because of this message board I can look back at the last time I felt like this and it was 3/10 - so that's a pretty good run. I'll get through it and hopefully it won't last more than a day.
I also recognize that I've been running myself ragged staying busy, I haven't allowed myself much time to process things. My parents are back from their winter home so they are local and give me another layer of support if I need it, which is good.
It's all interesting. I'll keep on keeping on.
. I was dating a woman and we had a good argument - it probably makes sense for that to end and for me to take a break.
Sorry to hear about your breakup! What triggered you to argue? Was arguing (trying to convince her to change instead of accepting her) the problem, or was a difference between you two irreconcilable? Have you thought about apologizing?
So I've been thinking that I'm doing pretty good. And I believe I have been.
For the first time in a long time, today is a tougher day. I think its a combination of things. I was dating a woman and we had a good argument - it probably makes sense for that to end and for me to take a break. At work I had a meeting that I just did not perform well in, in front of peers - it made me feel my lack of capacity in my mental state.
Last Friday I went over the property settlement with my attorney and we've been talking about that a lot since to get it right.
I then went through an old folder, looking for old statements and it had so much in there. Pictures of the family, cards from her and the kids, as well as cards from colleague's over the years - it all made me feel a bit melancholy and sad.
The good news is that because of this message board I can look back at the last time I felt like this and it was 3/10 - so that's a pretty good run. I'll get through it and hopefully it won't last more than a day.
I also recognize that I've been running myself ragged staying busy, I haven't allowed myself much time to process things. My parents are back from their winter home so they are local and give me another layer of support if I need it, which is good.
It's all interesting. I'll keep on keeping on.
A goal for me was to always double the amount of time between feeling like this. If the last time was a day ago, then I would focus on making it two days. Then 4, then 8. The emotional rollercoaster is rarely through with us even when we are through with it. Songs were always big trigger for me. In fact, there are songs to this day that if they come on the radio I turn the station because they make me think of the ex-gf and bring back emotional scars. Maybe that means that after 22 years+ being married to another woman, one that I want to grow old with, I am still not completely emotionally detached to the ex-gf. IDK, but you have to do what you have to do to get through!
Staying busy is actually a positive, but I get the need to step back a bit and reflect. Though I think that if you thought about it you still have plenty of time in staying busy to reflect. In the shower. Mowing the lawn. On a drive some where. Etc. So stay busy but take the opportunities when you are alone to reflect and process. I submit that you went from 3/10 to today without the melancholy BECAUSE you've stayed busy. Again, that is a good thing.
Just keep on keeping on, as you said!
So I've been thinking that I'm doing pretty good. And I believe I have been.
For the first time in a long time, today is a tougher day. I think its a combination of things. I was dating a woman and we had a good argument - it probably makes sense for that to end and for me to take a break. At work I had a meeting that I just did not perform well in, in front of peers - it made me feel my lack of capacity in my mental state.
Last Friday I went over the property settlement with my attorney and we've been talking about that a lot since to get it right.
I then went through an old folder, looking for old statements and it had so much in there. Pictures of the family, cards from her and the kids, as well as cards from colleague's over the years - it all made me feel a bit melancholy and sad.
The good news is that because of this message board I can look back at the last time I felt like this and it was 3/10 - so that's a pretty good run. I'll get through it and hopefully it won't last more than a day.
I also recognize that I've been running myself ragged staying busy, I haven't allowed myself much time to process things. My parents are back from their winter home so they are local and give me another layer of support if I need it, which is good.
It's all interesting. I'll keep on keeping on.
Scotty B it’s all part of the process. I remember I went like a year and a half without crying and then out of nowhere broke down during a workout. Good for you to know when to end it with your lady friend. Way too early for you. Lastly, I would suggest That you can’t put busy this and at some point you are going to have to sit with your feelings.
Onward and upward!
I was dating a woman and we had a good argument
By good do you mean major or large?
Change the way you interact with women. Commit to not arguing. Show women in your life that you are in control of your emotions and that you can handle every emotion they throw at you. When I find myself starting to argue with my woman, I intentionally stop. We are both being controlled by our emotions. I switch to listening and validation. Arguing means both people are not listening. I decided to be just the listener. I can share my thoughts with her later when we are both calm. Listen to her to understand her. She will calm down when you are listening. She will calm down after a period of time. Same thing with my kids.
A goal for me was to always double the amount of time between feeling like this. If the last time was a day ago, then I would focus on making it two days. Then 4, then 8.
My goal is to release any repressed emotions when it is safe to do so. If a sad (or angry) song comes on and I am in a safe place, I completely let the feeling flow through me and I cry, or scream or whatever expression of emotion that needs to be let out. Stuffing down emotions is not healthy. Expressing emotions at the wrong time and or place is also not good.
CW: The actual argument was ridiculous in my opinion. I didn't like her tone, I felt that she wasn't thinking through my perspective - she would say the same about me. She was a bit high maintenance and had some perspectives I disagreed with. She was a bit of a snob as well. I was fine with it ending, its better off this way. I have no regrets.
In the relationship I was seeing some patterns of mine I need to work on. I do have a habit of asking for permission when I don't need to - I do that because I am used to it frankly. I really struggle to communicate my feelings and emotions - I literally get tongue tied when I try to go there. I think it makes me feel vulnerable and afraid I'll get rejected. I tend to care too much about what other people think. And I struggle to be open and direct when I'm not sure about what I want.
R2C: By good, I meant major. It happened on Sunday morning. I didn't call her to discuss it. We then took it to texting through the day Monday - it was heated. I had my kids that day and I was tired that night so I didn't call her. On Tuesday when I got home with my kids from school some things were sitting on her porch that I had left at her house. I then called her and it went straight to VM - I've got a feeling she blocked me. I also sent her a brief text with no reply. Weird to me to close it off when we had been seeing each other since before Easter; and odd to not at least talk without closing it down but whatever.
And on emotional release I tend to either do it by turning the music up in my car all the way and singing along to whatever it might be or to the occasional guttural scream - that seems to help to.
Scott, I think the breakup is a good thing. And maybe the R was good too based on you recognizing there are still things you could work on.
My wish for you would be to take the time to be happy alone, continue to become the best version of yourself, and then you can be the healthy half of a couple in the future. I think you used this R as a way to get over your MR. And that never goes well for the new R, and it stunts your personal growth that should follow the loss of a MR.
As far as the emotional release, I have one word: Pantera
Weird to me to close it off when we had been seeing each other since before Easter; and odd to not at least talk without closing it down but whatever.
I'm glad you have no regrets. I don't particularly want another high-maintenance partner, either. A 2-day argument only one month into a relationship would likely have me pulling the plug like you two with no regrets. If you two can't communicate during the honeymoon phase, what about when life gets hard?
I would consider the 180 Ready2Change mentions. Meeting arguing, "heated exchanges", and a tone--with arguing and "heated exchanges"--escalates situations whereas listening and validating deescalates. I could handle a "medium-maintenance" partner, by enforcing boundaries without adding fuel to the fire.
I really struggle to communicate my feelings and emotions - I literally get tongue tied when I try to go there. I think it makes me feel vulnerable and afraid I'll get rejected.
Deep stuff. If the relationship had helped you spot patterns and things to work on it was valuable. I can really relate to sometimes struggling to be genuine. It’s brave and vulnerable.
Consider the book Daring Greatly by Brene Brown.
Weird to me to close it off when we had been seeing each other since before Easter; and odd to not at least talk without closing it down
I believe everything happens for a reason and that every relationship is a mirror to reflect our issues back at us. It is real easy to see the issues the other person has. A lot harder to see our own. Relationships are 50/50 no more, no less.
If you can look hard at yourself, you may be able to see the RED FLAGS she saw. That is the challenge.
ScottB,
I received the division of assets from her team and it was only off of my expectation by $100k. The support figure was spot on what I expected. I still do not feel good about the overall situation but getting the numbers a bit tighter is good.
Sounds like we're in a very similar stage in the process. I found myself over-analyzing the financials and being anxious at the outcome, so getting the details on paper and finalized has relieved some of that stress and distraction. Hopefully you can lock in a favorable outcome an not have to worry about that aspect any more.
Change the way you interact with women. Commit to not arguing. Show women in your life that you are in control of your emotions and that you can handle every emotion they throw at you. When I find myself starting to argue with my woman, I intentionally stop. We are both being controlled by our emotions. I switch to listening and validation. Arguing means both people are not listening. I decided to be just the listener. I can share my thoughts with her later when we are both calm. Listen to her to understand her. She will calm down when you are listening. She will calm down after a period of time. Same thing with my kids.
Interesting perspective. I've read a lot about validation and am trying to practice it with my friends and family. I started a program for separated / divorced individuals and hearing them complain about their exs and the exchanges of blame they've had, it made me think of this forum and validation - let them know you are listening and recognize their opinion but don't necessarily apologize or agree with it, and avoid "battling" and engaging in arguments or drama.
Crazy.
After I posted, the girl I was dating called twice that evening. I was busy and agreed to call her back the next day. I expected that call to be a simple - you're good, I'm good, we're not good together, its all good. I was wrong.
I called her, she accused me of being an unfeeling narcissist and she questioned my integrity in the relationship. She said I obviously didn't have the feelings I said I had or I wouldn't have just let go. I explained my perspective and said that I wasn't interested in being talked down to with contempt, that I was not interested in passive aggressive tactics and criticism and that I wanted someone that understood how to validate my feelings as opposed to playing devils advocate or telling me why I was wrong.
So she began to understand my perspective, and she began to feel horrible about the whole thing and we left off with me telling her I needed time to think things through. Then over the next couple of days she continued to annoy me with texts.
Now here is where I fail. I have a problem where I look for the approval of others. I am not good with people thinking I'm a jerk - that's where I get looped in. I called her Saturday to re-affirm that it was over, but she didn't pick up. I called her Sunday to tell her it was over but she was in the middle of a family situation and I didn't feel it was right to drop bad news on her.
Then on Monday she called and I thought it would be the end but instead she continued to tell me how she could help me and how she could make me happy. I told her I needed time and the reality is I ended up confusing myself - which is where I am now.
I think the antics from the previous week were actually a way for her to reposition things so that she would have the upper hand in the relationship and she was floored that I didn't come crawling back. Once that didn't happen, she started to re-assess her plans, because she doesn't want me to actually walk away.
And then in my brain I vacillate between just wanting some peace to myself and thinking, well, she's pretty good - what if I never find anything better. I am a moron.
But I've learned a lesson - which is good - one of my massive downfalls is the search for the approval of others. It is an easy way for me to be manipulated and its not something that is easy for me to turn off. So that will be the next thing I work on - add it to the list.
Steve: I do think the relationship was giving me a lot of feedback regarding things for me to work on. That was probably the best part of it.
CW: And I agree, I just can’t have a high maintenance partner in life. I want someone laid back at this point. A friend of mine said an argument like this, this early in a relationship is a major red flag. I think I agree. The only counterpoint would be that at some point you need to learn to work through things together – but if you give me a hard time because I woke you from a mid Sunday afternoon nap to do work on your house, when you have no kids and nothing to do, and I’m rushing to get to my kids sporting events, come on. I don’t need that. I do need to continue to work on validation and at some point I’ll reread the book “The Art of Listenning”. I put the Brene Brown book in my amazon shopping cart to consider in the future.
R2C: I agree; I played my role. I was seeking approval and trying to do something for her she didn’t want or ask me to do. That helped cause the breakdown. The night before, I was insensitive and didn’t pick up on some things I had said that hurt her, that didn’t help either. Regarding controlling one’s emotions, I think they are important to control but also important to feel. My survival strategy has been not to feel – I don’t think that is healthy.
BL42: The process is brutal because its constant. You can be having a good day and then you get an email or call from one of the attorneys. I hate it. I just can’t wait until its over.
I always think of Frank Barone from Everybody Loves Raymond in situations like this. In an episode where Robert pretends to be Raymond to get with a woman, and everyone ends up thinking Raymond is messing around, Franks says:
"What's a matter with you? Didn't I teach you that when you are having problems with a woman you don't go out and get another one? Now you just have two problems!!"
Last thing Scott needed was a sorta, maybe, kind of breakup with woman trying to convince him to give her a chance.
My advice, call her tonight and decisively tell her in no uncertain terms that is over. Do not make excuses. Do not beat around the bush. Do not NOT do it because her parents are there and you don't want to hurt her in front of them. I think if you've learned nothing else from the end of your marriage it should be that small problems early in an R turn into huge problems later on in an R. Be glad she flaked on you now, and not in 10 years, after 2 kids and 8 years of marriage.
My advice, call her tonight and decisively tell her in no uncertain terms that is over. Do not make excuses. Do not beat around the bush.
I would not initiate contact. If she contacts you, politely state this "I believe it is best if we ________"
You can fill in the blank.
Do not justify your answer. Listen to her and validate. Then follow through with whatever your blank is.
R2C... Regarding controlling one’s emotions, I think they are important to control but also important to feel.
Absolutely. Completely feeling, expressing and/or releasing emotions when it is safe is also extremely important.
My survival strategy has been not to feel – I don’t think that is healthy.
Then you most likely have many repressed emotions. There are triggers that may cause repressed emotions to get released at the wrong time, place or focused on the wrong person at the wrong level. There are healthy ways to release these as well. Part of the process.
Now here is where I fail. I have a problem where I look for the approval of others. I am not good with people thinking I'm a jerk - that's where I get looped in.
one of my massive downfalls is the search for the approval of others. It is an easy way for me to be manipulated and its not something that is easy for me to turn off.
Scotty B, I could have written this. This is the main thing I have really worked on changing over the last 6 or so months and I was in a situation last night where I had the opportunity to test myself and I passed with flying colours. And I felt amazing to take that ownership over my life and not let my worry about what other though or wanted to affect me.
My advice, call her tonight and decisively tell her in no uncertain terms that is over. Do not make excuses. Do not beat around the bush.
I would not initiate contact. If she contacts you, politely state this "I believe it is best if we ________"
You can fill in the blank.
Do not justify your answer. Listen to her and validate. Then follow through with whatever your blank is.
I believe in this case, since it has lingered on for days/weeks, he needs to be decisive, proactive, and put aside his NGS. Call her. Tell her. Stick to it. Listen and validate when she objects. But end the call with her knowing in no uncertain terms that it is over.
Scotty, it does come across narcissistic when you are concerned about others thinking you are a jerk.
The only person who needs to think you are not a jerk is YOU
I called her, she accused me of being an unfeeling narcissist and she questioned my integrity in the relationship. She said I obviously didn't have the feelings I said I had or I wouldn't have just let go. I explained my perspective and said that I wasn't interested in being talked down to with contempt, that I was not interested in passive aggressive tactics and criticism and that I wanted someone that understood how to validate my feelings as opposed to playing devils advocate or telling me why I was wrong.
I think the antics from the previous week were actually a way for her to reposition things so that she would have the upper hand
I do need to continue to work on validation and at some point I’ll reread the book “The Art of Listenning”. I put the Brene Brown book in my amazon shopping cart to consider in the future.
Scotty, two signs this is not a good fit for you, the huge drama so soon (who needs that) and you ascribing sinister motives to her actions (low goodwill). I like that you mention looking into empathy again. I can almost guarantee she wasn’t thinking, “Hahaha! I will get the upper hand this way.” unless you were a terrible judge of character getting into this relationship. Whatever you decide, try to be curious about where others are coming from, and when they call you upset, try to practice validation and/or active listening to hear them out before explaining your perspective. Unless they’re abusive or you’re certain the relationship is a no-go. Then hang up. No need to explain anything then. My read is she’s higher drama than usual, but you may be inserting some drama into the situation yourself.
Scotty, it does come across narcissistic when you are concerned about others thinking you are a jerk.
The only person who needs to think you are not a jerk is YOU
As usual, Ginger is dead on with this. Headshot!
I called her, she accused me of being an unfeeling narcissist and she questioned my integrity in the relationship. She said I obviously didn't have the feelings I said I had or I wouldn't have just let go. I explained my perspective and said that I wasn't interested in being talked down to with contempt, that I was not interested in passive aggressive tactics and criticism and that I wanted someone that understood how to validate my feelings as opposed to playing devils advocate or telling me why I was wrong.
I think the antics from the previous week were actually a way for her to reposition things so that she would have the upper hand
I do need to continue to work on validation and at some point I’ll reread the book “The Art of Listenning”. I put the Brene Brown book in my amazon shopping cart to consider in the future.
Scotty, two signs this is not a good fit for you, the huge drama so soon (who needs that) and you ascribing sinister motives to her actions (low goodwill). I like that you mention looking into empathy again. I can almost guarantee she wasn’t thinking, “Hahaha! I will get the upper hand this way.” unless you were a terrible judge of character getting into this relationship. Whatever you decide, try to be curious about where others are coming from, and when they call you upset, try to practice validation and/or active listening to hear them out before explaining your perspective. Unless they’re abusive or you’re certain the relationship is a no-go. Then hang up. No need to explain anything then. My read is she’s higher drama than usual, but you may be inserting some drama into the situation yourself.
Good observations by CW! I do want to poke on one thing you touched on:
"I can almost guarantee she wasn’t thinking, “Hahaha! I will get the upper hand this way.” unless you were a terrible judge of character getting into this relationship."
Based on Scott's admission to being a bad judge of character with his STBXW, I think there is a chance he is right aobut this. Another reason NOT to date this soon. Broken attracts broken.
Scott, when will you know you are not broken anymore? When you can be happy and fulfilled alone without a SO in your life for a very good amount of time: 6 months minimum....2 years better.
I didn't do a lot right in my pre-married days, but one of the things I did outstandingly well was know my own worth. I was happy to be alone and unattached rather than be unhappy and attached to the wrong person. The pre-marriage Steven would have seen all this drama as a huge neon sign saying EXIT STAGE LEFT. Now admittedly I didn't always exit the stage in the appropriate manner (my NGS had me go camouflaged and ghost the poor girl!) But at least I was secure enough in myself to end it before it could get worse. (My long term, on again, off again exGF being the one HUGE exception.....and that is one of my biggest regrets in life!)
My advice, call her tonight and decisively tell her in no uncertain terms that is over. Do not make excuses. Do not beat around the bush.
I would not initiate contact. If she contacts you, politely state this "I believe it is best if we ________"
You can fill in the blank.
Do not justify your answer. Listen to her and validate. Then follow through with whatever your blank is.
This reminds me of something I read about being assertive as opposed to passive or aggressive - I think i can fall to passive.
Assertive: Be Firm, deliver the message clearly, use I statements, be a broken record (say "no thank you" and then keep saying it over and over and over), and have good boundaries.
Scotty, it does come across narcissistic when you are concerned about others thinking you are a jerk.
The only person who needs to think you are not a jerk is YOU
Ginger: I don't think being concerned about what others think of you is narcissistic.
Narcissist: a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
I think its common to care about what people think, our society is built on it - that's why people try to keep up with the jones'.
Things are going well. The last girl I was dating is officially over as of now, which is a good thing. I've got a fishing trip coming up the weekend of June 11th, which I'm looking forward to. I am also hosting a party for July 4th which is going to be awesome. I'm hoping to get a significant enough crowd that I can get a keg.
Nothing says good party like a keg of beer in my opinion, haha.
Divorce wise, everything is in her court so I'm not sure what their counter offer will look like or if they will just accept the offer we made.
Dating wise, I've slowed that way down because I'm busy and just ended that other relationship. I'm also kind of enjoying my nights to myself at the moment. My son has baseball nearly every other night so I've always got something going on, so a night or two to myself is actually kind of nice and they go fast.
I'd say overall everything is going well. I still feel a deep sadness and I recognize that I miss the family I had, not her so much - but I assume time will help process that.
Have a good weekend folks.
Thanks for the update.
Just my 2 cents, but:
Nothing says a good party like an
EMPTY keg of beer
Enjoy the weekend!
I still feel a deep sadness and I recognize that I miss the family I had, not her so much - but I assume time will help process that.
This is normal and will be with you from time to time. I would say if you didn't miss the family you had then what was the four year fight for?
Things are going well. The last girl I was dating is officially over as of now, which is a good thing. I've got a fishing trip coming up the weekend of June 11th, which I'm looking forward to. I am also hosting a party for July 4th which is going to be awesome. I'm hoping to get a significant enough crowd that I can get a keg.
Nothing says good party like a keg of beer in my opinion, haha.
Divorce wise, everything is in her court so I'm not sure what their counter offer will look like or if they will just accept the offer we made.
Dating wise, I've slowed that way down because I'm busy and just ended that other relationship. I'm also kind of enjoying my nights to myself at the moment. My son has baseball nearly every other night so I've always got something going on, so a night or two to myself is actually kind of nice and they go fast.
I'd say overall everything is going well. I still feel a deep sadness and I recognize that I miss the family I had, not her so much - but I assume time will help process that.
Have a good weekend folks.
Great work Scott! Onward and upward.
Yes, very positive update, Scott! Nothing to critique here. Keep rocking. (:
I still feel a deep sadness and I recognize that I miss the family I had, not her so much - but I assume time will help process that.
This is normal and will be with you from time to time. I would say if you didn't miss the family you had then what was the four year fight for?
Damn. This was so true it made me tear up a little. Good point.
Life is off the charts busy, and not in a good way. I've been on the run since Thursday night.
Work dinner, led to an early breakfast, which led to five insanely busy days with the kids. Its good stuff but I've had no time for myself, I've missed a couple of workouts, struggling to find time to mow the lawn, get to the grocery, and get the sleep I want.
Today I asked my parents for help so they're running the kids to the two camps they have so I can work. This summer I'm taking half days on the Monday's I have the kids and the 5 fridays I have them I'm just taking those off.
This weekend I'm heading to FL to go fishing with my best friend.
And then the following weekend my son had a baseball tournament get canceled so I asked them if they would like to go to Naples and hang on the beach and they were all for it - so I'll be heading back there soon after. Hopefully I can find time to relax on those trips or this next week - I'm running myself into the ground a bit.
Camps will be done this week and so will soccer tryouts for next year; baseball is winding down as well. And then in July the kids will be gone for two weeks so its going to go from being crazy to really quiet, which will be a different kind of hard.
I continue to hear this and that from my brother in law. My ex is telling her family how abusive I was emotionally, which is freaking insanely absurd and hurts - but I need to focus on the things I can control, and she isn't one of them. Also, I'll rarely see those people - I just hope this doesn't trickle down to my kids and it wouldn't surprise me at all if her mom said something when they are around on purpose. Again, out of my control.
Scotty B,
Here is the thing Scotty B, I can promise you she is not lying and you were at some point emotionally abusive in the 20 years together. Did you know the silent treatment, being passive aggressive, gas lighting is being emotionally abusive?
Me either I thought it was normal. Saw my dad do it to my mom all the time. I’m not making excuses but us LBS we’re doing the best we could with the life experiences we had at the time. If you continue you this behavior in your next relationship then that’s on you. Scotty B you have read more books and have more coaches then anyone I know.
Right now your stbxw is going to remember all the bad things you did to justify leaving the marriage. Sounds like on paper she had a really good thing going so she is going to have to justify it even more.
This will change in time. Eventually she will remember the good more then the bad. That’s how our brains are hardwired.
I know there is going to be a time we I have to own up to my kids that I should have treated there mother better. I should have validated her feelings better and respected her opinion more. But I also am going to let them know that I never gave up on us as a family and did everything in my power to keep us together. That I feel really good about.
I continue to hear this and that from my brother in law. My ex is telling her family how abusive I was emotionally, which is freaking insanely absurd and hurts
I'm with LH. Most people have been emotionally abusive, sexist, racist, to some degree especially looking to the past. We're humanely imperfect and if we strive to better ourselves we weren't as good 5-10yrs ago. Learn what you can from any examples provided. Know your value as a human and partner isn't entirely defined by those, but your value as a human and partner in the future could be enhanced by reducing any negative behaviors. Maybe she's crazy, but the last person who vented 3 wrong with me, I learned from 2 of them even as I disagreed with her assessment. (:
For comparison, I'd gone on a road trip with a new friend for a planned hike. Upon arriving, she wanted to nap in the campground instead. I opted to hike solo. She said I was 1. An extremely selfish person for going on the hike and not considering her feelings, 2. I'd promised breakfast and a greek yogurt parfait is not breakfast; it's not even warm! 3. My car was disgusting, and she secretly wiped anything she touched.
My takeaways?
1. Go me, for valuing myself enough to go for my hike!
2. Next time, when I offer food, be clearer about the nature of said food.
3. A wash and vacuum weren't enough. My car needed a detail! Detailing of my car complete.
There are often lessons to learn from angry feedback, even if you don't agree with their overall assessment.
Life is off the charts busy, and not in a good way. I've been on the run since Thursday night.
Work dinner, led to an early breakfast, which led to five insanely busy days with the kids. Its good stuff but I've had no time for myself, I've missed a couple of workouts, struggling to find time to mow the lawn, get to the grocery, and get the sleep I want.
Being busy is good! Even if not the "good" busy. Though not getting enough sleep isn't good! You can do that for short periods of time but eventually you have to find time to catch up.
Today I asked my parents for help so they're running the kids to the two camps they have so I can work. This summer I'm taking half days on the Monday's I have the kids and the 5 fridays I have them I'm just taking those off.
LOVE THIS!! Do not be afraid to rely on your support system.
This weekend I'm heading to FL to go fishing with my best friend.
Awesome! AWESOME! AWESOME! This makes all the "busy" worth it.
And then the following weekend my son had a baseball tournament get canceled so I asked them if they would like to go to Naples and hang on the beach and they were all for it - so I'll be heading back there soon after. Hopefully I can find time to relax on those trips or this next week - I'm running myself into the ground a bit.
More awesome!
Camps will be done this week and so will soccer tryouts for next year; baseball is winding down as well. And then in July the kids will be gone for two weeks so its going to go from being crazy to really quiet, which will be a different kind of hard.
Really quiet ain't bad. I really enjoy my really quiet time even though it is rare. I am an ambivert, so there are times when my introvert side takes over!
I continue to hear this and that from my brother in law. My ex is telling her family how abusive I was emotionally, which is freaking insanely absurd and hurts - but I need to focus on the things I can control, and she isn't one of them. Also, I'll rarely see those people - I just hope this doesn't trickle down to my kids and it wouldn't surprise me at all if her mom said something when they are around on purpose. Again, out of my control.
Your kids will know, if not now in the future, the difference between words (accusations) and actions (how they see you conduct yourself). This is why as father it is important to NOT give the other side ammo. This is one of the smaller reasons, but a reason none the less, that I advocate for LBSs NOT dating until the D is final. The WAS will use ANY excuse they can in order to justify their actions. Lots of LBSs have been burnt by dating before the D was final, having their WAS say to the kids "your date met someone new that is why we split" and the LBS was stuck holding the bag because the words (accusation) matched the actions (dating before the D was final).
But I like your attitude here, you cannot control her. Or her narrative. She is going to feel like a complete flake for what she did and she will try to deflect that flakiness to you. Your job is to show your kids that who their mother says you are IS NOT you. Not through words, but through being the best father and person that you can be!
You got this Scott! Your kids will know the real you is not the you she says you are.
ScottB,
Then over the next couple of days she continued to annoy me with texts...she continued to tell me how she could help me and how she could make me happy. I told her I needed time and the reality is I ended up confusing myself - which is where I am now.
Sounds like the opposite of us (LBS) and our WAS at BD. Interesting insight into the other side's perspective.
BL42: The process is brutal because its constant. You can be having a good day and then you get an email or call from one of the attorneys. I hate it. I just can’t wait until its over.
Indeed. It's an awful, soul-draining process. Hang in there!
I've got a fishing trip coming up the weekend of June 11th, which I'm looking forward to. I am also hosting a party for July 4th which is going to be awesome. I'm hoping to get a significant enough crowd that I can get a keg.
Nothing says good party like a keg of beer in my opinion, haha.
Sounds awesome! Enjoy!
Divorce wise, everything is in her court so I'm not sure what their counter offer will look like or if they will just accept the offer we made.
Waiting, not knowing when you'll hear back, and then out of the blue getting an email refuting items on which you were being completely reasonable and might be settled can be jarring. The process is awful. Brace yourself.
My son has baseball nearly every other night so I've always got something going on, so a night or two to myself is actually kind of nice and they go fast.
Kids sports are the best. Consider volunteering as coach - I've thoroughly enjoyed it and it's helped me bond with my son!
I'd say overall everything is going well. I still feel a deep sadness and I recognize that I miss the family I had, not her so much - but I assume time will help process that.
Yep. I understand that completely.
Life is off the charts busy, and not in a good way. I've been on the run since Thursday night.
Work dinner, led to an early breakfast, which led to five insanely busy days with the kids. Its good stuff but I've had no time for myself, I've missed a couple of workouts, struggling to find time to mow the lawn, get to the grocery, and get the sleep I want.
Today I asked my parents for help so they're running the kids to the two camps they have so I can work. This summer I'm taking half days on the Monday's I have the kids and the 5 fridays I have them I'm just taking those off.
...
Hopefully I can find time to relax on those trips or this next week - I'm running myself into the ground a bit.
I'm struggling here as well. I've been making my kids such the priority that sometimes it feels like I don't have any time to breath or to decompress myself. We're the rocks for our kids, which is wonderful, but as they say on the planes..."put your oxygen mask on first, before helping others".
I continue to hear this and that from my brother in law. My ex is telling her family how abusive I was emotionally, which is freaking insanely absurd and hurts - but I need to focus on the things I can control, and she isn't one of them. Also, I'll rarely see those people - I just hope this doesn't trickle down to my kids and it wouldn't surprise me at all if her mom said something when they are around on purpose. Again, out of my control.
You'd have to be pretty awful to justify everything she's doing...wouldn't you. I don't know your situation as well as mine, obviously, but I'm aware of all sorts of things my Ex-W is telling friends and family about what an awful guy I am. And I'm not. I wasn't perfect and there are certainly things I need to work on, but I'm confident it's more her trying to justify her actions than the other way around. Just work on yourself and be the best you can be and be confident in that. Try not to worry about what others are saying/thinking (it can be hard, I know).
Here is the thing Scotty B, I can promise you she is not lying and you were at some point emotionally abusive in the 20 years together. Did you know the silent treatment, being passive aggressive, gas lighting is being emotionally abusive?
Me either I thought it was normal. Saw my dad do it to my mom all the time. I’m not making excuses but us LBS we’re doing the best we could with the life experiences we had at the time. If you continue you this behavior in your next relationship then that’s on you. Scotty B you have read more books and have more coaches then anyone I know.
LH19 - Not sure I completely agree here. There is a difference between abusive and areas to work on, or at least degrees. No one's perfect, but is everyone necessarily abusive? Think the point is ScottyB's W might be exaggerating (or lying) to justify her actions to her friends and family and put herself in a better light.
Right now your stbxw is going to remember all the bad things you did to justify leaving the marriage. Sounds like on paper she had a really good thing going so she is going to have to justify it even more.
This will change in time. Eventually she will remember the good more then the bad. That’s how our brains are hardwired.
I know there is going to be a time we I have to own up to my kids that I should have treated there mother better. I should have validated her feelings better and respected her opinion more. But I also am going to let them know that I never gave up on us as a family and did everything in my power to keep us together. That I feel really good about.
LH19 - It'll be interesting to see this transpire. To your points in my thread, it likely will take a very long time. Definitely agree it's good to be able to tell your kids you did your best to fix the marriage and keep your family together.
Me either I thought it was normal. Saw my dad do it to my mom all the time. I’m not making excuses but us LBS we’re doing the best we could with the life experiences we had at the time. If you continue you this behavior in your next relationship then that’s on you. Scotty B you have read more books and have more coaches then anyone I know.
LH19 - Not sure I completely agree here. There is a difference between abusive and areas to work on, or at least degrees. No one's perfect, but is everyone necessarily abusive? Think the point is ScottyB's W might be exaggerating (or lying) to justify her actions to her friends and family and put herself in a better light.
Let me clarify what I was trying to convey. Scotty's Bs STBXW is telling everyone he was emotionally abusive. She is not lying I am sure he was because of the many different way's you can emotionally abuse someone. As I am sure she was emotionally abusive towards him. The point is for the LBS spouse to learn not to give the silent treatment, Gas Light and be passive aggressive in future relationships. I am not on her side just stating facts. I would think by now everyone would know I am not a fans of WS lol.
LH19 - It'll be interesting to see this transpire. To your points in my thread, it likely will take a very long time. Definitely agree it's good to be able to tell your kids you did your best to fix the marriage and keep your family together.
BL I can see the "fading Affect Bias" in my situation that started almost 7 years. Though I am not a fan of my exw for various reasons when I do think of our marriage I mostly think about the good times. The last three or four years together are very blurry to me I think because my brain blocks them out. The same will happen with your ex. Guarantee it!
I tend to agree with C-Dub and LH, emotionally abuse is very broad and the definition of what constitutes is much looser than many of us would like to admit (which used to include me). I think that given that physical abuse is so easily defined (and insidious) we don't want to associate ourselves with it by being labelled as emotionally abusive. I have given silent treatment, been passive aggressive and been manipulative before, I own that, however I have never and would never lay a hand on a partner/child or anyone for that matter, I abhor violence. My point is, I am pretty sure we have all done these emotionally abusive deeds, whatever the label, they hurt our loved ones. As LH said, the key is to learn no to continue doing these things, and the first step is to accept that we have done them and that they hurt people. I am so grateful I can recognise my previous shortcomings so that I can work on removing these flaws from my personality. Whether STBXW does is her own business, but unlikely as is the case for most WAS/WS.
I tend to agree with C-Dub and LH, emotionally abuse is very broad and the definition of what constitutes is much looser than many of us would like to admit (which used to include me). I think that given that physical abuse is so easily defined (and insidious) we don't want to associate ourselves with it by being labelled as emotionally abusive. I have given silent treatment, been passive aggressive and been manipulative before, I own that, however I have never and would never lay a hand on a partner/child or anyone for that matter, I abhor violence. My point is, I am pretty sure we have all done these emotionally abusive deeds, whatever the label, they hurt our loved ones. As LH said, the key is to learn no to continue doing these things, and the first step is to accept that we have done them and that they hurt people. I am so grateful I can recognise my previous shortcomings so that I can work on removing these flaws from my personality. Whether STBXW does is her own business, but unlikely as is the case for most WAS/WS.
FTR, I do not disagree with this either. Though one man's emotional abuse may not be another. I think the term "abuse" gets thrown around way to easily these days. Not every disagreement between spouses involves "emotional abuse", though many after the R disintegrates make that claim. But yes, we can all do better in our interactions in our MRs, no question about it. In my own sitch, during MC, the MC pointed out that because my wife's LL was words of affirmation, that criticism was a double whammy for her. It was eye-opening. Nothing I was saying was untrue, but the affect on her was profound. I stop short of saying I was verbally abusive, but from her perspective she would certainly have said I was.
Funny, my W and I just had this conversation because there are some family issues that have come up with a recent family member's passing in her family. She said: "It is kind of like what you and I have discussed before. If you have a good R with someone than saying certain things certain ways is ok. But when the R is a bad one, you micro-focus on every thing that could be taken as negative." (Literally just came out of her mouth Tuesday night discussing the family issues.)
tldr;
Scott, you could certainly get introspective about your STBXW's accusations to see if there is room for improvement in the future.
One of my goals when communicating with others is to clarify and reduce confusion. Words are abstractions that have different means to different people.
If I said I was sexually abused during my marriage, each of us would have a different picture of what that means. If others would probe me for clarification, they would find out I used the wrong term and sexually neglected might have been a better term.
Right now, you are dealing with hear say. If you were in the position to actually interact with her and gain some clarification, you could understand (or more correctly comprehend) what makes her feel emotionally abused.
Practicing new listening skills during this process is extremely important. Most likely you can't do it with her, but almost everyone else in your life will be easy to practice with.
Scott, my personal opinion is that you were not abusive based on what you've described here, and your wife is throwing that around to justify her leaving you. Typical rewriting of history. Giving someone the silent treatment, having an attitude or being passive/aggressive is not abuse, it's just one person being a jerk. How the other person interprets that is up to them, but they're not being abused by it. Actual verbal/ emotional abuse would be belittling someone, such as telling them they are stupid or ugly or fat or worthless. I seriously doubt you ever did any of those things.
I definitely agree with Steve that the word "abuse" is thrown around too much these days, it's a trigger word that people use to elicit an emotional response and sympathy for their position. If your wife tells people she was abused, they have NO CHOICE but to offer her sympathy and comfort because in this day and age doing anything else instantly brands you as a terrible person. Your only option in defending yourself is to take the high moral road. Show people through your actions that you're a person of integrity. Let them see who you really are.
Again I just want to clarify Scotty B that I am not saying you are emotionally abusive. I am just saying that I guarantee at some point you were emotionally abusive so your Ws point is valid.
Right now, you are dealing with hear say. If you were in the position to actually interact with her and gain some clarification, you could understand (or more correctly comprehend) what makes her feel emotionally abused.
I agree and since we are not talking and if we did this woudl be off limits, heresy is all I've got so I'm not sure it makes to much sense to invest time based on it.
Scott, my personal opinion is that you were not abusive based on what you've described here, and your wife is throwing that around to justify her leaving you. Typical rewriting of history. Giving someone the silent treatment, having an attitude or being passive/aggressive is not abuse, it's just one person being a jerk. How the other person interprets that is up to them, but they're not being abused by it. Actual verbal/ emotional abuse would be belittling someone, such as telling them they are stupid or ugly or fat or worthless. I seriously doubt you ever did any of those things.
AS: I probably lean towards your take here. Contempt was something I was very aware of and avoided. My STBX has some things going on. There is a history of mental illness in the family. From my view she doesn't seem to be doing any better on her own. I know she claimed that she was being harassed at her new job and had to change roles because of it. She just looks for people to blame and accepts little responsibility herself.
When I have more time I'll tell you all about my weekend and this coming weekend as well. Its good stuff.
Scott, my personal opinion is that you were not abusive based on what you've described here, and your wife is throwing that around to justify her leaving you. Typical rewriting of history. Giving someone the silent treatment, having an attitude or being passive/aggressive is not abuse, it's just one person being a jerk. How the other person interprets that is up to them, but they're not being abused by it. Actual verbal/ emotional abuse would be belittling someone, such as telling them they are stupid or ugly or fat or worthless. I seriously doubt you ever did any of those things.
AS: I probably lean towards your take here. Contempt was something I was very aware of and avoided. My STBX has some things going on. There is a history of mental illness in the family. From my view she doesn't seem to be doing any better on her own. I know she claimed that she was being harassed at her new job and had to change roles because of it. She just looks for people to blame and accepts little responsibility herself.
When I have more time I'll tell you all about my weekend and this coming weekend as well. Its good stuff.
When you are unhappy with life it is easier to blame others. I have siblings that do that. "If X hadn't done Y, I would be happy." She will continue to struggle until she wakes up to the fact that her happiness is HERS. She can't look externally to anything to try to make herself happy. I struggled with this for years and was an addict because of it! The sad part is she has to discover this for herself, no one can help her see the light or tell her to.
Steve, maybe I can give you her phone number?
Today is our 15 year wedding anniversary. It hit me kind of hard yesterday. Hitting hard today. Struggled to get out of bed both days. Not functioning well at work but I have a lot to do.
I did send her a text. I don't care if I should have ignored the day or not. It was for me and it was for her. I'm sure she's struggling to make sense of today too - or maybe not, who knows.
I said that "I am and sad and angry, but I didn't feel right walking by the day without acknowledging it." I said that "she was radiant on that day. And that it was a perfect day, mishaps and all." I said "It breaks my heart, but life moves forward. I do hope you have a blessed day."
I'm trying to process it all. I'm letting myself feel the sadness. I really appreciate whoever it was on here that said it made sense for me to feel sadness since I fought so long and hard to save the marriage. That gave me permission in a weird way to be sad.
Anyhow, I get my kids in the morning and we are headed to Florida Friday through Monday. We're going to hang on the beach, at the pool, and we're doing a jet ski dolphin tour which should be great. I'll be over this day very soon.
And, last weekend I had a great experience. My childhood friend and I went to FL to go fishing with a charter. I caught a tarpon, which was amazing as well as some other big fish. We also spent a day at the beach and had some good laughs and dinners.
The weekend of the 25th my son has a baseball tournament and then for the fourth of July I'm throwing a big party, which is going to be fun. So, I just get through today and then things will get back to my new normal. Just gotta get through this one.
Today is our 15 year wedding anniversary. It hit me kind of hard yesterday. Hitting hard today. Struggled to get out of bed both days. Not functioning well at work but I have a lot to do.
Totally normal as this is still very new to you.
I said that "I am and sad and angry, but I didn't feel right walking by the day without acknowledging it."
You see the problem Scotty B is this text is all about how you feel and nothing about how she feels. She is gonna laugh and say "more of the same Scotty" If you HAD to send a text you could have said something like " I just wanted to acknowledge the day. I hope you have a good one". This is passive aggressive behavior that she translates into "emotional abuse".
I said that "she was radiant on that day.
Translation: You were radiant that day but you are no longer radiant because you divorced me. Passive aggressive.
" I said "It breaks my heart, but life moves forward. I do hope you have a blessed day."
More about how you feel then you finally say the right thing.
I'm trying to process it all. I'm letting myself feel the sadness. I really appreciate whoever it was on here that said it made sense for me to feel sadness since I fought so long and hard to save the marriage. That gave me permission in a weird way to be sad.
That was me. You don't need permission to feel sad. Feel it!
Anyhow, I get my kids in the morning and we are headed to Florida Friday through Monday. We're going to hang on the beach, at the pool, and we're doing a jet ski dolphin tour which should be great. I'll be over this day very soon.
Awesome stuff!
And, last weekend I had a great experience. My childhood friend and I went to FL to go fishing with a charter. I caught a tarpon, which was amazing as well as some other big fish. We also spent a day at the beach and had some good laughs and dinners.
Yep! You will have many more of these.
Scott, do you love this woman? Do you (can you) love her unconditionally? Do you have the ability to give her what she wants and needs even if it conflicts with what you want and need?
You felt like sending a text. So you did it. Is this what she needed? Is this what she wanted?
Set her free. Set yourself free.
Good advice from LH and Ready2Change. The next time you feel a need to vent your emotions, try writing the text out first in Notes or Notepad. You won't believe how often that has helped me process my emotions and NOT send a text or send a better one. If you need to, print it out then burn the message.
Scott, sorry the date caused you to struggle in your moving forward. LH and R2C really said all there is to say. I am sure you've regretted sending the text since, even though it felt like the right thing to do at the time.
Here is the problem: This date rolls around and you look back in regret at the MR ending. She looks back and regrets that the MR got started. You are texting (as LH pointed out) from your perspective on the date. You didn't consider her perspective of the date.
I hope that wasn't hurtful to hear, because it is the truth. Her looking at the marriage in a romantic way has been gone for a long time. You still look back at the MR fondly, and regret that it ended. Try to think about her perspective next time before you hit send.
Small setback. You have good plans to recover! Keep up the good work on the GAL.
Good advice from LH and Ready2Change. The next time you feel a need to vent your emotions, try writing the text out first in Notes or Notepad. You won't believe how often that has helped me process my emotions and NOT send a text or send a better one. If you need to, print it out then burn the message.
Or here! Type it here and let LH and R2C pick it apart before you send it! I wish more LBSs would do that.
Here is the problem: This date rolls around and you look back in regret at the MR ending. She looks back and regrets that the MR got started. You are texting (as LH pointed out) from your perspective on the date. You didn't consider her perspective of the date.
This will change in time when she burns through the anger and resentment. She will look fondly on it again one day.
I do hope you have a blessed day.
I hope you have a blessed day.
I wanted to also point out what one little word does to a sentence.
The word "do" changes your entire attitude to the statement.
I hope you have a blessed day sounds sincere.
I do hope you have a blessed day sounds condescending. After everything you have done to me, I do still hope you have a good day.