Another LBH (not kinda) pt. 5

[SaltyDog]

Link to the last thread

Recap:
- BD in October
- EA with a past friend turned PA at some point in her trips back home.
- I wasn't emotionally available.
- We set up a nesting schedule, rent an apartment to share, and stay close
- She started using dating apps but still wanted me to "show up"
- I started getting my sh!t together and GAL which she noticed and shows signs of turning back
- Tells me the EA/OM is over
- We start spending more time together and having some genuine moments of connection
- She has a trip planned to the desert to have a break due to her working 12+ hour days for 2 months
-I come back from a trip to the coast with oldest son and see on her computer a chat left open w/OM
-She is planning on seeing him on her trip, she says she loves him, all that good stuff.
- I lose my sh!t. Leave the house before she gets back and send her a message saying I'm done and she should just stay in the apartment when she gets back
- She keeps trying to get in touch with me but I don't respond
- We finally talk via messenger because I won't see her in person.
- She tells me how she sees all my changes, the OM isn't the one for her, she wants me to keep the door open, she knows I'm the better man for her, but she can't trust me because I hurt her in the past
- She also still can't see how she contributed to me closing up in the past other than her sickness
- I tell her I can't change the past and if she can't either deal with it or see how I have changed then there's nothing I can do
- She says I am like a "zombie" to her right now, revived from the dead and she doesn't know how to deal with it
- I get angry, say lots of stuff, call bullsh!t on lots of her arguments, say I won't share her, and that I have been the only one working on "us" and I'm done being the only one paddling the canoe

So here we are. She's gone. We have had 1 conversation that was purely about logistics with kids. I'm alternating between anger, pain, rage, and soul crushing sadness. As usual I throw myself into reading and research and determined to nobody's surprise that I am very co-dependent and have been in all my relationships. I guess I always knew it but I watched a video and it was like listening to a fortune teller I have never met telling me everything about me and something unlocked inside me. During all of this, and during tough times in the past, I argue with myself about why I am putting up with it all? Why am I not throwing her sh!t out on the street, getting angry, allowing her to hurt me over and over again, and being "ok" with her being on dating apps while we are supposedly working on each other. I knew it was nuts, but I did it and EVEN NOW there's a part of me that is still going "yeah, but...." which is insane. But looking at it from a co-dependent perspective it makes sense. I have lost my identity and my self to her and as much as I have grown, I haven't gotten it back yet. And nothing will change until I do.

My question now is about moving forward. I have stated I will not be going back to the apartment again and that there is nothing there for me. I told her to just stay there but she got upset saying I am not going to take the kids from her and since the apartment is just a studio, the kids can't stay there with her. I say that is not my intention to keep the kids from her, just that I won't be going back. We left it at that for now. I have no intention of going back or not sleeping in my own bed unless I am going on a trip of my own. Do I just stay at the house with her during "her" weeks with the kids until the lease is up for the apartment (end of May) and do my own thing during those times? That seems super-awkward and a huge temptation to backslide depending on the circumstance. I've heard good/bad about IHS and this would be like a partial IHS. Curious on anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

For me, I am hiring a local life coach to go along with me IC to help get me moving forward and also a personal trainer. Putting jiu-jitsu on hold for now (rib still hurts) and instead just going to work with someone to get me physically healthy. I've lost 30lbs over the past 5 months but have plateaued and need that extra kick in the butt at this point to push it further. Also going back on the wagon as I could tell once Dry January was over and I started drinking again that I lost a lot of ground that I had gained.

Thanks for reading my novel and as usual thanks for all the support and help.

[LH19]

I have stated I will not be going back to the apartment again and that there is nothing there for me. I told her to just stay there but she got upset saying I am not going to take the kids from her and since the apartment is just a studio, the kids can't stay there with her. I say that is not my intention to keep the kids from her, just that I won't be going back.

This sounds like a man of strength who is tired with the BS.

I have no intention of going back or not sleeping in my own bed unless I am going on a trip of my own.

More strength

Do I just stay at the house with her during "her" weeks with the kids until the lease is up for the apartment (end of May) and do my own thing during those times?

Yes

That seems super-awkward and a huge temptation to backslide depending on the circumstance.

This sounds like the old weak Salty Dawg

I've heard good/bad about IHS and this would be like a partial IHS. Curious on anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

What do you mean by IHS? Aren't you filing for divorce?

[SaltyDog]

That seems super-awkward and a huge temptation to backslide depending on the circumstance.

This sounds like the old weak Salty Dawg

Yeah - I know. I just know the old weak SD is in some ways the "stronger" one in dictating actions.

I've heard good/bad about IHS and this would be like a partial IHS. Curious on anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

What do you mean by IHS? Aren't you filing for divorce?

Good point. Guess I'm still stuck in my old mindset regarding things.

[LH19]

That seems super-awkward and a huge temptation to backslide depending on the circumstance.

This sounds like the old weak Salty Dawg

Yeah - I know. I just know the old weak SD is in some ways the "stronger" one in dictating actions.

I've heard good/bad about IHS and this would be like a partial IHS. Curious on anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

What do you mean by IHS? Aren't you filing for divorce?

Good point. Guess I'm still stuck in my old mindset regarding things.

Yep. You still think you are going to strategically get yourself out of it.

Unfortunately it's game over my friend. So the question is are you going to go out on your terms or continue with the death by 1,000 papercuts?

[Mumin]

For perspective.

I lived in a, what you called, partial IHS for over a year.
Its hard but its doable and I am really glad I stuck to it. Didnt buckle after this board put me straight.
Slept in my bed and XW in a cabin/shed outside when she was here (50% living with OM).

[SaltyDog]

Yep. You still think you are going to strategically get yourself out of it.

Unfortunately it's game over my friend. So the question is are you going to go out on your terms or continue with the death by 1,000 papercuts?

I know. Boy, do I know. I beat myself up daily, get angry, get motivated, and then fold. At least about filing for the D right now. I'm not going back on what I've told her, I will stay here and in my bed. I'm also not going to continue being more than a co-parent at this point. I won't be a d!ck and I'm not going even bother pointing out all the sh!tty things she's done/doing. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I am trying to change that as well. It's like deprogramming one of Pavlov's dogs.

[SaltyDog]

For perspective.

I lived in a, what you called, partial IHS for over a year.
Its hard but its doable and I am really glad I stuck to it. Didnt buckle after this board put me straight.
Slept in my bed and XW in a cabin/shed outside when she was here (50% living with OM).

Hey Mumin - for some reason I thought I had already read your threads but apparently not. Just went through them and see a ton of similarities (especially with LH trying to get things through our thick skulls!). Thanks for sharing all of what you went through, it helped to read it and identify with someone who is/was having similar feelings.

[LH19]

Yep. You still think you are going to strategically get yourself out of it.

Unfortunately it's game over my friend. So the question is are you going to go out on your terms or continue with the death by 1,000 papercuts?

I know. Boy, do I know. I beat myself up daily, get angry, get motivated, and then fold. At least about filing for the D right now. I'm not going back on what I've told her, I will stay here and in my bed. I'm also not going to continue being more than a co-parent at this point. I won't be a d!ck and I'm not going even bother pointing out all the sh!tty things she's done/doing. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I am trying to change that as well. It's like deprogramming one of Pavlov's dogs.

So SD when your stbxw acknowledges your changes and still chooses to sleep with other dudes it’s an attraction thing. It 100 percent isn’t going to come back while you are acting like a scared little boy. 100 percent she can see it and feel it. Once she feels comfortable with OM you will be served. You will tell yourself you did it for your kids or you want to be able to say you tried everything but the truth is you are being passive because of fear.
As Kevin Bacon said in Few Good Men” those are the facts of the case and the facts are irrefutable”.

[SteveLW]

Link to the last thread

Recap:
- BD in October
- EA with a past friend turned PA at some point in her trips back home.
- I wasn't emotionally available.
- We set up a nesting schedule, rent an apartment to share, and stay close
- She started using dating apps but still wanted me to "show up"
- I started getting my sh!t together and GAL which she noticed and shows signs of turning back
- Tells me the EA/OM is over
- We start spending more time together and having some genuine moments of connection
- She has a trip planned to the desert to have a break due to her working 12+ hour days for 2 months
-I come back from a trip to the coast with oldest son and see on her computer a chat left open w/OM
-She is planning on seeing him on her trip, she says she loves him, all that good stuff.
- I lose my sh!t. Leave the house before she gets back and send her a message saying I'm done and she should just stay in the apartment when she gets back
- She keeps trying to get in touch with me but I don't respond
- We finally talk via messenger because I won't see her in person.
- She tells me how she sees all my changes, the OM isn't the one for her, she wants me to keep the door open, she knows I'm the better man for her, but she can't trust me because I hurt her in the past
- She also still can't see how she contributed to me closing up in the past other than her sickness
- I tell her I can't change the past and if she can't either deal with it or see how I have changed then there's nothing I can do
- She says I am like a "zombie" to her right now, revived from the dead and she doesn't know how to deal with it
- I get angry, say lots of stuff, call bullsh!t on lots of her arguments, say I won't share her, and that I have been the only one working on "us" and I'm done being the only one paddling the canoe

So here we are. She's gone. We have had 1 conversation that was purely about logistics with kids. I'm alternating between anger, pain, rage, and soul crushing sadness. As usual I throw myself into reading and research and determined to nobody's surprise that I am very co-dependent and have been in all my relationships. I guess I always knew it but I watched a video and it was like listening to a fortune teller I have never met telling me everything about me and something unlocked inside me. During all of this, and during tough times in the past, I argue with myself about why I am putting up with it all? Why am I not throwing her sh!t out on the street, getting angry, allowing her to hurt me over and over again, and being "ok" with her being on dating apps while we are supposedly working on each other. I knew it was nuts, but I did it and EVEN NOW there's a part of me that is still going "yeah, but...." which is insane. But looking at it from a co-dependent perspective it makes sense. I have lost my identity and my self to her and as much as I have grown, I haven't gotten it back yet. And nothing will change until I do.

She didn't have to leave, at least legally in most jurisdictions. You could have asked her to leave. I am not a fan of nesting, as it plays right into the WS' desire to have their cake and eat it too. "Yeay I get to play house for a week, then go be single and party for a week!"

My question now is about moving forward. I have stated I will not be going back to the apartment again and that there is nothing there for me. I told her to just stay there but she got upset saying I am not going to take the kids from her and since the apartment is just a studio, the kids can't stay there with her. I say that is not my intention to keep the kids from her, just that I won't be going back. We left it at that for now. I have no intention of going back or not sleeping in my own bed unless I am going on a trip of my own. Do I just stay at the house with her during "her" weeks with the kids until the lease is up for the apartment (end of May) and do my own thing during those times? That seems super-awkward and a huge temptation to backslide depending on the circumstance. I've heard good/bad about IHS and this would be like a partial IHS. Curious on anyone's thoughts or suggestions.

IHS is not easy. Not going to lie. I think it is worse if your WS/WAS is in an active PA. I would recommend moving back in and keeping the MBR. Telling her she will need to sleep somewhere else. I did IHS, and tried to stay as busy as I could (GAL), which helped. When I struggled was when I did GAL poorly.

For me, I am hiring a local life coach to go along with me IC to help get me moving forward and also a personal trainer. Putting jiu-jitsu on hold for now (rib still hurts) and instead just going to work with someone to get me physically healthy. I've lost 30lbs over the past 5 months but have plateaued and need that extra kick in the butt at this point to push it further. Also going back on the wagon as I could tell once Dry January was over and I started drinking again that I lost a lot of ground that I had gained.

Good stuff here. I highly encourage you to stop drinking all together. Though I am biased (former alcoholic). But it is just too easy to not be in your right mind and do and say things that will hurt your sitch. DBing sober is difficult enough.

Thanks for reading my novel and as usual thanks for all the support and help.

Keep working! You've got this!

[LH19]

After years of reading all of these short, sad, WAW stories, there is only one conclusion I arrive at:

Kick their @sses to the curb and leave them there. They want out? Throw them out. Now!

They patronize you by saying you deserve better? Find someone better immediately.

Who needs to wait around for a lying, cheating, betraying, character-assassinating POS WAS?

Now, that's the kind of validating I'm talking about. Go ahead and give them exactly what they say they want. And give it to them IMMEDIATELY! No namby-pamby wimp-@ss "waiting."

After all, they've been so "unhappy" for "so long."

So SD I pulled this post from another thread. I like you came here trying to save my family. I like you was afraid to do anything to push me exw further away. I like you thought that if she could just see my changes I could have the life I used to have put back together. I now realize that wasn't a very great life. This board and MWD tends to make you believe that they are in a temporary fog and will snap out of it. My ex was miserable most of the time and that in-turn made me miserable. Now that I am far away and see life on the other side the post from Kimmie Lee reads loud and clear to me.

Easier said then done but I promise you that this is how you will see things years from now.

[SaltyDog]

Yep. You still think you are going to strategically get yourself out of it.

Unfortunately it's game over my friend. So the question is are you going to go out on your terms or continue with the death by 1,000 papercuts?

I know. Boy, do I know. I beat myself up daily, get angry, get motivated, and then fold. At least about filing for the D right now. I'm not going back on what I've told her, I will stay here and in my bed. I'm also not going to continue being more than a co-parent at this point. I won't be a d!ck and I'm not going even bother pointing out all the sh!tty things she's done/doing. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I am trying to change that as well. It's like deprogramming one of Pavlov's dogs.

So SD when your stbxw acknowledges your changes and still chooses to sleep with other dudes it’s an attraction thing. It 100 percent isn’t going to come back while you are acting like a scared little boy. 100 percent she can see it and feel it. Once she feels comfortable with OM you will be served. You will tell yourself you did it for your kids or you want to be able to say you tried everything but the truth is you are being passive because of fear.
As Kevin Bacon said in Few Good Men” those are the facts of the case and the facts are irrefutable”.

I agree on the attraction thing and while she is seeing changes she likes and wants, it isn't enough to make her want to give up the thrill of the OM or dating or whatever. She's like an addict. She knows he won't leave his wife, she knows he is using her, she knows it isn't really going anywhere, but it's forbidden fruit and exciting and she isn't a "wife" or "mom" or any of that other crap. But like I have said before, I do have to thank her in a lot of ways for this, as f'ed up as it is. I'm really digging into this codependency stuff and talk about a 2x4! More like a lead pipe. Each of her betrayals has made me dig further into myself, something I wouldn't have done on my own or without the pain to motivate me, and see things/make changes I never would have on my own. And NOT to please her, but to please myself. It goes beyond the marriage into all aspects of my life. Up until now I have been trying to take responsibility for what I did in the past but now I realize I was just blaming myself. No more of that. She continues to take zero responsibility which tells me she hasn't grown or done any self-reflection. So screw that. I'm ready to detach and no longer live in fear of what she is doing or going to do.

[SaltyDog]

She didn't have to leave, at least legally in most jurisdictions. You could have asked her to leave. I am not a fan of nesting, as it plays right into the WS' desire to have their cake and eat it too. "Yeay I get to play house for a week, then go be single and party for a week!"

Yup, and I bought into the bullsh!t by thinking she really was looking to work on herself and have time to process and all that crap. Read something lately that resonated with me - "you're both in a canoe and you are paddling in circles with one oar and she's putting on her life jacket."

IHS is not easy. Not going to lie. I think it is worse if your WS/WAS is in an active PA. I would recommend moving back in and keeping the MBR. Telling her she will need to sleep somewhere else. I did IHS, and tried to stay as busy as I could (GAL), which helped. When I struggled was when I did GAL poorly.

The only "good" thing (not that you can call it that) is that the OM is out of state so I won't have to deal with her going and spending the night at his house or some other crap. At least for now, that is obviously subject to change at any time depending on her next Tinder date.

Good stuff here. I highly encourage you to stop drinking all together. Though I am biased (former alcoholic). But it is just too easy to not be in your right mind and do and say things that will hurt your sitch. DBing sober is difficult enough.

Totally agree. I've basically been a functioning alcoholic for 20 years. Never full-blown, I wouldn't drink in the morning or have withdrawals if I went a day, but up until Dry January I hadn't gone a week without drinking for as long as I could remember. Having 1 drink was never an option. It was all or nothing. But seeing how many positive changes happened in January with not drinking and seeing how I lost a lot of those changes since I started again is a wakeup call. Hard part is that is has become such a part of my identity. Most of my t-shirts are pub/brewery shirts I've collected over the years. My birthday/Xmas presents always include something beer related. So I need to change that identity because like you said, it is hard enough doing this sober, doing it drunk just adds a whole other layer of bad choices, bad thinking, and depression.

Keep working! You've got this!

Thank you. I'm starting to actually believe that.

[SaltyDog]

After years of reading all of these short, sad, WAW stories, there is only one conclusion I arrive at:

Kick their @sses to the curb and leave them there. They want out? Throw them out. Now!

They patronize you by saying you deserve better? Find someone better immediately.

Who needs to wait around for a lying, cheating, betraying, character-assassinating POS WAS?

Now, that's the kind of validating I'm talking about. Go ahead and give them exactly what they say they want. And give it to them IMMEDIATELY! No namby-pamby wimp-@ss "waiting."

After all, they've been so "unhappy" for "so long."

So SD I pulled this post from another thread. I like you came here trying to save my family. I like you was afraid to do anything to push me exw further away. I like you thought that if she could just see my changes I could have the life I used to have put back together. I now realize that wasn't a very great life. This board and MWD tends to make you believe that they are in a temporary fog and will snap out of it. My ex was miserable most of the time and that in-turn made me miserable. Now that I am far away and see life on the other side the post from Kimmie Lee reads loud and clear to me.

Easier said then done but I promise you that this is how you will see things years from now.

While journaling this morning I listed out what things were REALLY like between us. And like you say, it wasn't a great life. So why the f should I fight for it? Especially when I'm the only one. To go back to how it was??? F-that. Yes, I was/am sh!t at boundaries which enabled the situation, but that's gonna change. And not just with her. I have no desire to go back to how it was. I have no desire to keep playing this game anymore. I've done all that has been asked of me, now it is time for me to do everything for myself. I have a clear conscience and no more regrets. And I need to keep it that way without letting those old weak parts of me worming their way back in.

[SteveLW]

Totally agree. I've basically been a functioning alcoholic for 20 years. Never full-blown, I wouldn't drink in the morning or have withdrawals if I went a day, but up until Dry January I hadn't gone a week without drinking for as long as I could remember. Having 1 drink was never an option. It was all or nothing. But seeing how many positive changes happened in January with not drinking and seeing how I lost a lot of those changes since I started again is a wakeup call. Hard part is that is has become such a part of my identity. Most of my t-shirts are pub/brewery shirts I've collected over the years. My birthday/Xmas presents always include something beer related. So I need to change that identity because like you said, it is hard enough doing this sober, doing it drunk just adds a whole other layer of bad choices, bad thinking, and depression.

I unfortunately had to give up some friendships when I went sober. Turns out they were less friends and more drinking buddies. Tried hanging out with them after I stopped drinking but they couldn't handle me but drinking. Constantly tried to get me to have a drink. "One won't kill you!" So for my own sobriety I had to move on from them. It tough but proved how serious I was about sobriety. I think you'll have a similar feeling if you start ridding your life of that identity.

[LH19]

And like you say, it wasn't a great life. So why the f should I fight for it? Especially when I'm the only one. To go back to how it was??? F-that. Yes, I was/am sh!t at boundaries which enabled the situation, but that's gonna change.

Because most people prefer the $hitty known to the potentially fantastic unknown. I was like that until I understood my value. I know what I bring to the table. Heck I made the table. It's a game changer. It takes time.

[LH19]

Most of this is your brain trying to protect you and some really bad rom-com Hollywood movies you've watched over the years that is keep you holding on for dear life.

[Traveler]

Hard part is that is has become such a part of my identity. Most of my t-shirts are pub/brewery shirts I've collected over the years.

Props for recognizing this. Losing our ex is often an identity crisis. A true 180 is often an identity crisis. I can see how the changes in my life are attracting certain people and repulsing others. My ex is an alcoholic, and when I cut my drinking, she could no longer blame her drinking on me and started to "pre-game" when we got together. I think that made her uncomfortable. I love how you are testing things out--how did you feel without alcohol--how did you feel with alcohol again--and then making the right choices for you.

[SaltyDog]

And like you say, it wasn't a great life. So why the f should I fight for it? Especially when I'm the only one. To go back to how it was??? F-that. Yes, I was/am sh!t at boundaries which enabled the situation, but that's gonna change.

Because most people prefer the $hitty known to the potentially fantastic unknown. I was like that until I understood my value. I know what I bring to the table. Heck I made the table. It's a game changer. It takes time.

I am/was one of those people. Give me a sh!tty certainty over an unknown potential any day. No more. Even you saying you built the table reminded me of how I used to build stuff. Built my workbench, built cutting boards, built gifts, etc. I haven't built anything for months. Too depressed and too distracted. So I went out and bought myself some new clamps, chisels, hand planes, etc. and am making that a priority again.

Most of this is your brain trying to protect you and some really bad rom-com Hollywood movies you've watched over the years that is keep you holding on for dear life.

Good way to look at it. And I know right now I am all gung-ho and ready to kick ass, and I know that pendulum will swing back at times, but each time it is swinging this way it is swinging a little further. And each time it swings back to her, it swings a little less. Just gotta keep going forward.

[SaltyDog]

I unfortunately had to give up some friendships when I went sober. Turns out they were less friends and more drinking buddies. Tried hanging out with them after I stopped drinking but they couldn't handle me but drinking. Constantly tried to get me to have a drink. "One won't kill you!" So for my own sobriety I had to move on from them. It tough but proved how serious I was about sobriety. I think you'll have a similar feeling if you start ridding your life of that identity.

Luckily one of my buddies is in a similar situation and we're supporting each other. Makes it easier when someone is holding you accountable.

[Traveler]

I went out and bought myself some new clamps, chisels, hand planes, etc. and am making that a priority again.

Fantastic! I never learned woodworking beyond pinewood derby cars and making spears. I do have good clamps and know my knots from sailing and survival. I hope you'll post about your projects, especially ones the rest of us MIGHT be able to follow lol.

[SaltyDog]

Hard part is that is has become such a part of my identity. Most of my t-shirts are pub/brewery shirts I've collected over the years.

Props for recognizing this. Losing our ex is often an identity crisis. A true 180 is often an identity crisis. I can see how the changes in my life are attracting certain people and repulsing others. My ex is an alcoholic, and when I cut my drinking, she could no longer blame her drinking on me and started to "pre-game" when we got together. I think that made her uncomfortable. I love how you are testing things out--how did you feel without alcohol--how did you feel with alcohol again--and then making the right choices for you.

Thank you. Where I screwed up with Dry January is I used it to justify things. "See, I went a whole month, I'm not that bad, I got this under control!" And I thought because I now knew I was strong enough to resist that moving forward I could just have 1 beer, or only drink on a weekend. It started out that way and before I knew it I was drinking a 6-pack on a Wednesday or 2 bottles of wine by myself in the apartment. Not good.

[SaltyDog]

I went out and bought myself some new clamps, chisels, hand planes, etc. and am making that a priority again.

Fantastic! I never learned woodworking beyond pinewood derby cars and making spears. I do have good clamps and know my knots from sailing and survival. I hope you'll post about your projects, especially ones the rest of us MIGHT be able to follow lol.

I wish I remembered all my knots. My dad was a sailor - was supposed to go to the Olympics but the military had other plans for him, he crewed on a boat that won TransPac, etc. We had a catamaran and used to sail regattas when I was young but he gave it up for AYSO soccer and all that stuff for the kids. Looking back I really wish we had stuck with sailing instead.

[LH19]

Worst thing that could've happened to me was her taking me back 3-4 months ago because I would've slipped right back under her thumb.

Yo SD I had to bring this over from a thread you posted on.

"Take you back" that's how you see it? It's her choice to take you back? If that is how you see it then I am afraid your situation will never change.

Explain to me how you are not under her thumb right now.

[SaltyDog]

Worst thing that could've happened to me was her taking me back 3-4 months ago because I would've slipped right back under her thumb.

Yo SD I had to bring this over from a thread you posted on.

"Take you back" that's how you see it? It's her choice to take you back? If that is how you see it then I am afraid your situation will never change.

Explain to me how you are not under her thumb right now.

I was referring to back then it would've been "taking me back" because that's all I was hoping for. Now I feel like I have more say in the situation because I am not looking for her to take me back and that I have some say in what I want, what my boundaries are, and that I have more serious doubts about even wanting to reconcile.

Does that mean I am not under her thumb? Hell no! But to put it in jiu-jitsu terms - she had me in full mount and I managed to get back to half-guard. Now I just need to pull off the sweep. As for how things are different of late - I've gone back to detaching. The only contact we've had since Saturday has been logistical and during those exchanges I haven't responded with anything more than the bare minimum. I'm going to hold strong on staying at the house and in my bed. That's not negotiable. I've got my first personal trainer session on Monday and will be going 2x a week. I have my life coach sessions scheduled and paid for. I'm the type of person who needs to be held accountable, so actually signing up, spending money, and putting things on the calendar makes sure I don't make excuses.

I'm not out of the woods by a long stretch. Things just FEEL different this go around. More anger, more motivation, less victim, less dwelling on things. More nervous excitement and less full-blown 24/7 anxiety.

[LH19]

I was referring to back then it would've been "taking me back" because that's all I was hoping for. Now I feel like I have more say in the situation because I am not looking for her to take me back and that I have some say in what I want, what my boundaries are, and that I have more serious doubts about even wanting to reconcile.

The only say you don't have is her being a good, loving faithful wife. You can have one of those if you want. Just not her.

Does that mean I am not under her thumb? Hell no!

What is keeping you under her thumb?

But to put it in jiu-jitsu terms - she had me in full mount and I managed to get back to half-guard. Now I just need to pull off the sweep.

I don't even know what that means.

As for how things are different of late - I've gone back to detaching.

LOL. You don't go back and forth with detaching. Trust me you are not detached. Detaching is hard and takes time.

The only contact we've had since Saturday has been logistical and during those exchanges I haven't responded with anything more than the bare minimum.

Good!

I'm going to hold strong on staying at the house and in my bed. That's not negotiable.

If you go back on this she will have zero respect for you.

I've got my first personal trainer session on Monday and will be going 2x a week. I have my life coach sessions scheduled and paid for. I'm the type of person who needs to be held accountable, so actually signing up, spending money, and putting things on the calendar makes sure I don't make excuses.

Good stuff!

I'm not out of the woods by a long stretch. Things just FEEL different this go around. More anger, more motivation, less victim, less dwelling on things. More nervous excitement and less full-blown 24/7 anxiety.

I think you are starting to come out of denial and into the anger stage. You are certainly not out of the woods but I think you can see a small light at the end of the tunnel

[SaltyDog]

Does that mean I am not under her thumb? Hell no!

What is keeping you under her thumb?

Inertia. Weakness. The kids. A fool's hope. Fear.

But to put it in jiu-jitsu terms - she had me in full mount and I managed to get back to half-guard. Now I just need to pull off the sweep.

I don't even know what that means.

Lol. In jiu-jitsu (like lots of things in life) it is all about "advancing your position" and moving from a place of weakness to a place of strength. You (usually) can't just quickly go from one to the other and instead need to take a series of steps. Being mounted or giving up your back is the worst/weakest position to be in because you have 0 attacks and are 100% on the defensive. Half-guard is still weak, but you at least are now able to launch your own attacks and some people actually work pretty well from there. A sweep is a reversal, putting them on the defensive.

As for how things are different of late - I've gone back to detaching.

LOL. You don't go back and forth with detaching. Trust me you are not detached. Detaching is hard and takes time.

Detaching, not detached. I know I'm not. But I am more than I ever was, not that that is saying much. I don't jump when my phone goes off. I don't have the anxiety when she sends something and I don't respond right away. When I do respond, I am cordial but brief - getting used to just using the thumbs up emoji as much as possible. Since our last big blow up I have not brought up, mentioned, hinted, or discussed anything about the M. I'm focusing on 180s and saying/doing exactly the opposite of what I would normally do.

I'm not out of the woods by a long stretch. Things just FEEL different this go around. More anger, more motivation, less victim, less dwelling on things. More nervous excitement and less full-blown 24/7 anxiety.

I think you are starting to come out of denial and into the anger stage. You are certainly not out of the woods but I think you can see a small light at the end of the tunnel

Yup. And now I see that it is really the end of the tunnel and not a train heading my way.

[LH19]

Inertia. Weakness. The kids. A fool's hope. Fear.

It's interesting that the opposite would be:
Moving forward
Strength
Showing the kids you can't let people walk all over you
A smart mans reality
Courage

Since our last big blow up I have not brought up, mentioned, hinted, or discussed anything about the M.

What's there to discuss? She's in love with another man.

I'm focusing on 180s and saying/doing exactly the opposite of what I would normally do.

I would be interested in examples other then waiting to respond and thumbs up emojis

[SaltyDog]

Inertia. Weakness. The kids. A fool's hope. Fear.

It's interesting that the opposite would be:
Moving forward
Strength
Showing the kids you can't let people walk all over you
A smart mans reality
Courage

Totally agree. And those are the things I'm focusing on. But I'm an like an addict and need to be aware of that.

What's there to discuss? She's in love with another man.

Exactly, but that wouldn't have stopped me in the past.

I'm focusing on 180s and saying/doing exactly the opposite of what I would normally do.

I would be interested in examples other then waiting to respond and thumbs up emojis

Fair point, but with her being out of town that's all I got. In the past I would've done something stupid by now and so far I haven't. Once she gets back though, the rubber hits the road.

[LH19]

Give me an example of something stupid.

[SaltyDog]

Give me an example of something stupid.

Sending her pictures of playing with the kids to try and appeal to the mom/wife that used to be there
Asking how she's doing.
Get drunk and send lengthy emails explaining what I'm feeling, how I miss her, etc.
Get drunk and send guilt trip/angry messages
Snooping
Posting stupid, thinly veiled, passive aggressive things on Facebook

[LH19]

Oh boy. I am sorry I asked.

Good for you not doing these things anymore.

[SaltyDog]

Oh boy. I am sorry I asked.

Good for you not doing these things anymore.

Thanks, it's a start. Some of that - like asking how she's doing - was due to her specifically saying she wanted me to "show up" and be vulnerable. I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff. So now I have more confidence in what I am doing and no worry of "but if I do that she'll do ______" because I know it is BS. I've finally accepted that she's going to do whatever she's going to do no matter what, and none of it is my fault.

[Traveler]

I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff.

Many of us try what our ex asks us to do, to salvage a broken relationship. It's rarely as effective as DB'ing, but "trying it their way" (when it's not outlandish) can leave you with a calm that you tried everything. I at least don't entirely regret that I tried for a time exactly what she said would lead to a happy us.

[LH19]

I've finally accepted that she's going to do whatever she's going to do no matter what, and none of it is my fault.

Ding ding ding we have a winner! What have you won? A great life after divorce w/o all the drama and WW Bull$hit.

[SaltyDog]

I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff.

Many of us try what our ex asks us to do, to salvage a broken relationship. It's rarely as effective as DB'ing, but "trying it their way" (when it's not outlandish) can leave you with a calm that you tried everything. I at least don't entirely regret that I tried for a time exactly what she said would lead to a happy us.

Yup! It is a box we checked, and that at least gives me some solace. And I could see how what I was doing did put some chinks in her armor and got her second guessing, but in the end she was just buying time. She knows what she would need to do if she were to want to work on "us" but in the meantime I'm done being the only one showing up.

[sandi2]

So SD when your stbxw acknowledges your changes and still chooses to sleep with other dudes it’s an attraction thing. It 100 percent isn’t going to come back while you are acting like a scared little boy. 100 percent she can see it and feel it. Once she feels comfortable with OM you will be served. You will tell yourself you did it for your kids or you want to be able to say you tried everything but the truth is you are being passive because of fear.
As Kevin Bacon said in Few Good Men” those are the facts of the case and the facts are irrefutable”.

I agree with LH19 ^^^^^.

I agree on the attraction thing and while she is seeing changes she likes and wants, it isn't enough to make her want to give up the thrill of the OM or dating or whatever. She's like an addict. She knows he won't leave his wife, she knows he is using her, she knows it isn't really going anywhere, but it's forbidden fruit and exciting and she isn't a "wife" or "mom" or any of that other crap.

Yes, she's like a drug addict.

Here's how I see it, FWIW. If it's a case where the W is fed up with a loser husband and hands him a list of all her complaints, maybe he can get his act in gear and save the MR. I tend to think this happens more in line of a walk away wife who usually has more legit reasons for wanting to leave her H. Usually, it's due to him being a lousy H. It may be abuse, neglect, criminal, addiction issues, having an affair, or whatever is normally defined as legit reasons. In other words, he usually did something that earned her disrespect and she left. On the other hand, if it's a case where the W has developed a wayward mindset and feels no attraction/desire for him that's a different animal, b/c it's her fault, so to speak. She feels no attraction b/c she no longer respects him. However, her loss of respect is due to him basically being the weaker spouse. I mean, she wears the pants in the relationship. Her negative attitude breeds resentment, selfishness, sense of entitlement, disrespect, rebellion, cold heart, etc. Her reasons for wanting out of the M usually has a secret agenda attached, like pursuing an affair, or engaging in a GGW lifestyle. I'm not saying her H is totally innocent in the downfall of the MR, but it's too long to go into everything here. If you don't understand, please feel free to ask what I mean.

So, what do you think the H is going to accomplish by using the WW's list of complaints for his changes? NOTHING!!! No respect = no attraction.

She's not going to write down how she wants a man who doesn't take her cr@p. One who will stand up to her when she gets out of line. One who will make actual decisions on where to eat out or go on vacation, or how to spend their money, discipline the kids......instead of always giving the shot to her to make. A man who takes charge in the bedroom.......instead of silently and resentfully waiting for her to decide when they can have sex again (and you know what I mean). She wants him to stop his passivity and act as if he has the spine God meant for men to have. She wants a man who can lead, protect, and provide........and most of all, she wants a man who is stronger than she is and who is not afraid of her! Too many women today are trying to make their H into another female, and that doesn't work well in a heterosexual relationship. I could go on & on, but this is enough to get the picture of the kind of things she won't put on the list, but she'll put something that's more like symptoms related to these root causes.


You see, it's at the core of every woman to naturally be attracted to these manly traits that come from within the male. That's how she was designed. A lot of women don't like it, but biology is what it is. She won't tell you what she really needs to feel attraction. She's going to talk about the surface stuff. She's going to say something about wanting an understanding H, who shows he cares about her feelings and interested in her daily activities, etc. She wants him to be tender and gentle. While that is true enough, there are times she needs his toughness and strength of character and a man who stands on his integrity & principles to shine through. Now, understand that I'm not suggesting any form of violence whatsoever. So, stay balance when you read this. I'm not talking about an overbearing bully who walks around intimidating his W. I'm a Christian, but I can't stand some guy who thinks he can quote a scripture completely out of context to guilt and brow beat his W into submission (that's another subject for another time). Now, back to her complaints. She'll say she needs more time together, maybe even more intimacy, dates or romance. But guess what? None of these changes bring about attraction if the H has those unattractive and unmanly traits that we often see in those with NGS. She's going to lose respect, thus killing the attraction, and he can jump through hoops of fire trying to satisfy her list of complaints, and it will not cause her attraction to return. In fact, some WW's get very frustrated that they don't feel attraction after seeing the H working to change her complaints. It's b/c neither of them are working on the root problem.

Therefore, whatever the LBH does......should be based on his self respect, first of all. He needs to evaluate whether or not his actions will gleam respect from his W. I'm not talking about whether or not it will please her. Will it cause her to respect him as a man? I like to think that most men start their MR wanting to make the W happy, b/c after all, he's in love, right? The problem is when they think that handing over their own b@lls will accomplish a happy MR. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've heard guys question why girls fall for the bad boy types. It's not that she actually wants someone who is truly a bad person, but she's attracted to how he doesn't take cr@p from others, especially her, and she sees the manliness in how he conducts himself with her and others, how he takes charge in situations, etc.

[SaltyDog]

Here's how I see it, FWIW. If it's a case where the W is fed up with a loser husband and hands him a list of all her complaints, maybe he can get his act in gear and save the MR. I tend to think this happens more in line of a walk away wife who usually has more legit reasons for wanting to leave her H. Usually, it's due to him being a lousy H. It may be abuse, neglect, criminal, addiction issues, having an affair, or whatever is normally defined as legit reasons. In other words, he usually did something that earned her disrespect and she left. On the other hand, if it's a case where the W has developed a wayward mindset and feels no attraction/desire for him that's a different animal, b/c it's her fault, so to speak. She feels no attraction b/c she no longer respects him. However, her loss of respect is due to him basically being the weaker spouse. I mean, she wears the pants in the relationship. Her negative attitude breeds resentment, selfishness, sense of entitlement, disrespect, rebellion, cold heart, etc. Her reasons for wanting out of the M usually has a secret agenda attached, like pursuing an affair, or engaging in a GGW lifestyle. I'm not saying her H is totally innocent in the downfall of the MR, but it's too long to go into everything here.

In my case I would say the latter. I was the weaker spouse, I was the pleaser, I was the employee. Of course she always loved to say "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" Bullsh!t. I was fine letting her wear the pants or make the decisions because in most cases, I didn't care or want to. Now I see what a huge mistake that is.

So, what do you think the H is going to accomplish by using the WW's list of complaints for his changes? NOTHING!!! No respect = no attraction.

This is where I struggle between doing what she explicitly asks for vs. DBing. In my case it was a list of complaints but she also stated "If we are going to work I need to see you can show up and be vulnerable and not abandon me."

She's not going to write down how she wants a man who doesn't take her cr@p. One who will stand up to her when she gets out of line. One who will make actual decisions on where to eat out or go on vacation, or how to spend their money, discipline the kids......instead of always giving the shot to her to make. A man who takes charge in the bedroom.......instead of silently and resentfully waiting for her to decide when they can have sex again (and you know what I mean). She wants him to stop his passivity and act as if he has the spine God meant for men to have. She wants a man who can lead, protect, and provide........and most of all, she wants a man who is stronger than she is and who is not afraid of her! Too many women today are trying to make their H into another female, and that doesn't work well in a heterosexual relationship. I could go on & on, but this is enough to get the picture of the kind of things she won't put on the list, but she'll put something that's more like symptoms related to these root causes.

I've been digging into this as well - the whole masculine/feminine dynamic and realizing how we were out of balance. I was definitely a nice guy but she also didn't like it when I stepped out of that role. I should've pushed the issue, but didn't. I know now not to listen to the words because she's likely not being truthful, whether she knows it or not. We were stuck in a cycle of her wanting me to step up and be closer and at the same time treating me in a way where the last thing I wanted to do was step up and be closer to her. I used to tell her how she would give me the silent treatment or cold shoulder and then get mad and say "WHY AREN'T YOU SUPPORTING ME?!?!?!" or something along those lines and I'd say "because you're pushing me away!" I get it now that she wanted me to ignore it all and just step up and "be a man." But she still takes no responsibility for her actions and doesn't see how she also contributed to our situation.

She'll say she needs more time together, maybe even more intimacy, dates or romance. But guess what? None of these changes bring about attraction if the H has those unattractive and unmanly traits that we often see in those with NGS. She's going to lose respect, thus killing the attraction, and he can jump through hoops of fire trying to satisfy her list of complaints, and it will not cause her attraction to return. In fact, some WW's get very frustrated that they don't feel attraction after seeing the H working to change her complaints.

Looking at the last month or two I have seen that attraction coming back from her. And not just because of rose colored glasses, she admitted as much in our last conversations. Which makes this latest betrayal all that much harder to take and more of a last straw for me.

Therefore, whatever the LBH does......should be based on his self respect, first of all. He needs to evaluate whether or not his actions will gleam respect from his W. I'm not talking about whether or not it will please her. Will it cause her to respect him as a man?

I don't care anymore (whether it will cause her to respect me). It is all about me at this point and doing what I want. And not in an a-hole kinda way, in a healthy way that is going to get my self-respect back. My dignity. For the first time in a long time I'm putting myself 1st.

[Traveler]

I've been digging into this as well - the whole masculine/feminine dynamic and realizing how we were out of balance. I was definitely a nice guy but she also didn't like it when I stepped out of that role. I should've pushed the issue, but didn't. I know now not to listen to the words because she's likely not being truthful, whether she knows it or not. We were stuck in a cycle of her wanting me to step up and be closer and at the same time treating me in a way where the last thing I wanted to do was step up and be closer to her. I used to tell her how she would give me the silent treatment or cold shoulder and then get mad and say "WHY AREN'T YOU SUPPORTING ME?!?!?!" or something along those lines and I'd say "because you're pushing me away!" I get it now that she wanted me to ignore it all and just step up and "be a man." But she still takes no responsibility for her actions and doesn't see how she also contributed to our situation.

Hi Salty,

There are different opinions about what the masculine side of a relationship looks like in the modern world. You don't always have to lead. However, if your wife is saying "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" you've probably gone off the deep end on passivity. Living to please someone, lacking independent agency, is convenient but unattractive.

I met a woman who realized she'd learned from her mom to rule the household, and was trying to let that go, to have a better post-retirement relationship with her husband. These behaviors can be generational, picked up from years of watching her parents of your parents, picked up from your kids seeing you two.

[SaltyDog]

There are different opinions about what the masculine side of a relationship looks like in the modern world. You don't always have to lead. However, if your wife is saying "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" you've probably gone off the deep end on passivity. Living to please someone, lacking independent agency, is convenient but unattractive.

Off the deep end is a good way to put it. And I'd also throw in a healthy dose of depression on top of that passivity which is twice as unattractive. I can see it all now, hindsight and all that, and at least now I can sense my depression, realize what it is, and get out in front of it. Today though, I am feeling great. Almost worryingly great because I have not felt this good in a while and I don't really know why. But gonna go with it! Sun is out, warmest day of the year so far, and it is the weekend!

I met a woman who realized she'd learned from her mom to rule the household, and was trying to let that go, to have a better post-retirement relationship with her husband. These behaviors can be generational, picked up from years of watching her parents of your parents, picked up from your kids seeing you two.

Way back before we got married, the one red flag/worry I had was her mom. People always say women turn into their mothers and her mom is a batsh!t crazy, neurotic, overbearing, guilt-trip machine! Guess I should've listened.

[SaltyDog]

She's on her way home now. We had a short fluff but amicable conversation yesterday and her phone died. At the airport she sent a text saying she's at the gate and will let me know what her ETA is when she lands so I can leave before she gets home. Here's a recap:

Me: I am not leaving, I am staying here.
Her: Like ever? Or just today?
Me: Ever. I won't be going back, nothing left for me there.
Her: What is the plan when for the weeks when I'm at home?
Me: I don't know.
Her: I'm not moving into the studio.
Me: Ok.

She then starts sending me a bunch of messages about her trip and where she is at. She met with OM, but only to provide him "support" as he is having marital, work, family, and financial issues. (Poor f'in baby, I'm really broken up for him.) She decided she's pushing herself so hard to "find something" that she is exhausted and is pulling back. Taking down dating profiles and trying to figure out what she is looking for. She then says she's not doing this to give me hope, or because of my "threats," but just to let me know where she is at and she doesn't feel she owes me any further explanations. I tell her "Thank you for letting me know."

She then asks if there is anything I want to tell her other than I won't be leaving the house. I say "Not really. You need to do what is best for you and so do I. Whatever happens, happens."

And now she's onboard and heading home.

[LH19]

SD,

Not horrible but you need to be briefer.

Me: I’m not leaving
Me: Ever (stop being passive aggressive)
Her: I’m not moving to the studio
Me: crickets

I suggest you work on a boundary about discussing OM with you. Zero respect.

No need for thank you for letting me know.

Your W is a kook and is not coming back anytime soon.

Chin up.

[SaltyDog]

SD,

Not horrible but you need to be briefer.

Me: I’m not leaving
Me: Ever (stop being passive aggressive)
Her: I’m not moving to the studio
Me: crickets

I suggest you work on a boundary about discussing OM with you. Zero respect.

No need for thank you for letting me know.

Your W is a kook and is not coming back anytime soon.

Chin up.

Funny, I didn't mean for that part to be passive aggressive, just more explanatory, but I can see it now. As you can imagine, the above already took a lot of editing on my part and focus on not saying what I would've in the past.

She also sent this a while after the above exchange:

"It was nice to hear your voice yesterday and hear stories about our kids and how amazing of a dad you are. Thank you for showing up for them."

I responded, "You're welcome."

[LH19]

OMG! Dude you don’t get it.

It’s all manipulation and you eat it up.

What would happen to you if you didn’t respond? Would you go into convulsions?

[Ace_32]

Hi SaltyDog.

It seems quite strange how she started sended a bunch of message after you put in a boundary, something to think about maybe. Also weird that she brought up seeing the OM to you and telling you why she did without you asking her, and then also telling you where she is at or giving a general update about removing dating profiles, etc. and then saying doesnt owe you further explanations. Wondering why she gave you the update in the first place.

How did all her messages and updates make you feel or think about the situation, did it give you hope or make you overthink?

Hang in there man and be strong when you see her.

[LH19]

So I’ll translate what’s going on. Her and OM are planning the future together. That’s why she’s coming off the dating sites. Until that’s solidified she’ll string along SD in case something goes wrong. She knows just what to say to string him along.

[SaltyDog]

OMG! Dude you don’t get it.

It’s all manipulation and you eat it up.

What would happen to you if you didn’t respond? Would you go into convulsions?

How is saying "you're welcome" bad though? In the past I would've said, "it was good to hear your voice too" or something along those lines, I just said "you're welcome" instead.

[SaltyDog]

Hi SaltyDog.

It seems quite strange how she started sended a bunch of message after you put in a boundary, something to think about maybe. Also weird that she brought up seeing the OM to you and telling you why she did without you asking her, and then also telling you where she is at or giving a general update about removing dating profiles, etc. and then saying doesnt owe you further explanations. Wondering why she gave you the update in the first place.

How did all her messages and updates make you feel or think about the situation, did it give you hope or make you overthink?

Hang in there man and be strong when you see her.

She brought it up because we hadn't talked since the last blowup where I made it clear if anything physical happened there would be no chance of moving forward, so this was her both letting me know what did or didn't happen along with her saying this would be the last time she does so. Her messages didn't impact me how they would in the past and haven't changed anything about how I feel at this point. I don't believe anything she says anymore.

[LH19]

OMG! Dude you don’t get it.

It’s all manipulation and you eat it up.

What would happen to you if you didn’t respond? Would you go into convulsions?

How is saying "you're welcome" bad though? In the past I would've said, "it was good to hear your voice too" or something along those lines, I just said "you're welcome" instead.

You didn’t answer the question. What would happen if you didn’t respond?

Grand scheme “you’re welcome” “I love hearing your voice” puke etc. changes nothing. It’s about your beliefs and values on how you let people treat you.

[SaltyDog]

You didn’t answer the question. What would happen if you didn’t respond?

Nothing would happen.

Grand scheme “you’re welcome” “I love hearing your voice” puke etc. changes nothing. It’s about your beliefs and values on how you let people treat you.

So less about what you say and more about not saying anything at all. I was just trying to be more "brief."

[LH19]

I disagree. You still think you can nice her back.

[SaltyDog]

I disagree. You still think you can nice her back.

Must be the Canadian half of me because I thought I was being curt.

[SteveLW]

SD, haven't followed the last few days, but just wanted to pop in to say to keep working on you! Focus on you! You will get through this, just keep your head down on doing the work you need to do. I know you can see light at the end of the tunnel, just keep moving forward towards it.

[LH19]

I am 1/4 Canadian. No wonder why you drink so much lol.

[SaltyDog]

SD, haven't followed the last few days, but just wanted to pop in to say to keep working on you! Focus on you! You will get through this, just keep your head down on doing the work you need to do. I know you can see light at the end of the tunnel, just keep moving forward towards it.

Thanks! Today is my 1st day with my personal trainer, so looking forward to that. "Moving forward" has been my ongoing mantra in my journaling.

[SaltyDog]

I am 1/4 Canadian. No wonder why you drink so much lol.

I'm a teetotaler compared to my Canadian family.

[sandi2]

I think what LH19 is saying is that you don't have to be so polite. I've seen this with NGS, and how it seems to tear the guy apart if he can't fall back on his pattern of always being polite ........even to the one who is betraying him. I'm using the word polite instead of nice, b/c we see it show up in written text messages a lot. To a nice guy, it's unthinkable not to respond with politeness. (Politeness is what the nice guy calls it.) When they are told to practice not responding, especially to texts that ask no questions......... they just can't imagine doing such a thing!

Maybe try challenging yourself a bit, and just try it? Start with not responding to something she says that isn't a direct question. If you must answer a question, use less than six words. You'll quickly see how tough it is for you. It's not a matter of politeness, it's a matter of the NGS you have.

BTW, that stuff she said about you showing up for the kids, etc............is just fluff. It just keeps you emotionally engaged. For her, It's like buttering a turkey.

[SaltyDog]

I think what LH19 is saying is that you don't have to be so polite. I've seen this with NGS, and how it seems to tear the guy apart if he can't fall back on his pattern of always being polite ........even to the one who is betraying him. I'm using the word polite instead of nice, b/c we see it show up in written text messages a lot. To a nice guy, it's unthinkable not to respond with politeness. (Politeness is what the nice guy calls it.) When they are told to practice not responding, especially to texts that ask no questions......... they just can't imagine doing such a thing!

Maybe try challenging yourself a bit, and just try it? Start with not responding to something she says that isn't a direct question. If you must answer a question, use less than six words. You'll quickly see how tough it is for you. It's not a matter of politeness, it's a matter of the NGS you have.

Yeah, that's me with anyone, not just her. I am working on it though, in one of our conversations lately there was one of those uncomfortable silences and I used to ALWAYS be the one who had to say something, and I didn't. I just waited. Is that a huge 180, no, but it is something.

BTW, that stuff she said about you showing up for the kids, etc............is just fluff. It just keeps you emotionally engaged. For her, It's like buttering a turkey.

That made me laugh.

Also, just got back from my 1st session with my personal trainer. We started with leg day and I am pretty sure I won't be able to walk for a week.

[Rose888]

I know you've gotten many people's thoughts about telling her "You're welcome," but my initial reaction is one I don't think anyone has posted yet (although I might have missed it).

A person says, "You're welcome" in response to someone thanking them for a favor they have done for them. If someone gives them a compliment, they usually respond, "Thank you."

Are you showing up for your kids as a favor to your wife?

Or are you showing up for your kids because you have decided that's the kind of dad you want to be?

I hope for their sakes as well as for the sake of your emotional detachment and differentiation, that the answer is the second one.

And if it is, either ignore her or say "thank you" and move on.

[sandi2]

Yeah, that's me with anyone, not just her.

I know, b/c that comes from the root of NGS. You have read the book on NGS, right?

You need to understand why you feel you must always be nice, even to those who have cheated, lied, betrayed, and whatever. Your answer that it's just you is the typical answer I get from those nice guys when I point specifics out to them. I believe them 100%, b/c it is ingrained that much.

Nobody here is trying to turn you into a jerk. We want to help you recognize where to draw the line with those who disrespect you. I may be wrong, but I think whenever your WW is being civil in conversation, or when she's even being what you would think as "pleasant", you automatically respond with too many words, and can get somewhat gushy. It's as if you temporarily forget what she is, or else your NGS tells you she's being nice at the moment so you must respond accordingly. However, in most cases I've read, it is the WW keeping the LBH emotionally engaged so he won't treat her like she really deserves. And, as I said last time, it's just how the WW works in manipulating him. It's like she keeps him ready to be used whenever she decides to play that card.

When you can overcome the pull of NGS, you will find a sense of freedom, self-respect and confidence like you've never had. These are not my original words, but words from men who actually lived it .

[LH19]

When you can overcome the pull of NGS, you will find a sense of freedom, self-respect and confidence like you've never had. These are not my original words, but words from men who actually lived it .

100% and you quickly get rid of people in your life who do not deserve to be there!

[SteveLW]

To add to what sandi is saying, having NGS really isn't all that nice! In fact, most "Nice Guys" are really jerks underneath.

I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. And while I wasn't full blown NGS, I certainly suffered from it to an extent. Two things that were eye-opening to me:

- Nice guys often proclaim to themselves that they are nice guys

This usually comes in the form of "deserving" something in return. For instance, a big one in NGS is thinking he deserves sex for being nice.

- Passive-aggressive tendencies

Nice guys like to exhibit a nice exterior but underneath are really being passive-aggressive in the things they say or do. Passive-aggressiveness is a big NGS red-flag.

The last one is the covert contrat. "If I am nice then X will give me Y." Again often in the context of sex. But notice, Nice Guys do not do something because it is nice. They are nice because they think then they will get what they want.

Anyway, the book is a great read. Many here have read it multiple times. It can't hurt to give it a look.

[SaltyDog]

I know you've gotten many people's thoughts about telling her "You're welcome," but my initial reaction is one I don't think anyone has posted yet (although I might have missed it).

A person says, "You're welcome" in response to someone thanking them for a favor they have done for them. If someone gives them a compliment, they usually respond, "Thank you."

Are you showing up for your kids as a favor to your wife?

Or are you showing up for your kids because you have decided that's the kind of dad you want to be?
.

That is an interesting way of looking at it and I hadn't thought of it that way before. As to your question, being the best dad I can be is something I've always strived to be and has nothing to do with her.

[SaltyDog]

Yeah, that's me with anyone, not just her.

I know, b/c that comes from the root of NGS. You have read the book on NGS, right?

You need to understand why you feel you must always be nice, even to those who have cheated, lied, betrayed, and whatever. Your answer that it's just you is the typical answer I get from those nice guys when I point specifics out to them. I believe them 100%, b/c it is ingrained that much.

I have read it and it was a 2x4 for sure. I'm also working on my codependency as well which is another reason I struggle to just move on after all the betrayals and lies.

I may be wrong, but I think whenever your WW is being civil in conversation, or when she's even being what you would think as "pleasant", you automatically respond with too many words, and can get somewhat gushy. It's as if you temporarily forget what she is, or else your NGS tells you she's being nice at the moment so you must respond accordingly. However, in most cases I've read, it is the WW keeping the LBH emotionally engaged so he won't treat her like she really deserves. And, as I said last time, it's just how the WW works in manipulating him. It's like she keeps him ready to be used whenever she decides to play that card.

I think you nailed it. She's good at showing up enough to give me hope to keep me hanging around. I don't know if she does it consciously or not, or if it matters, but it is obvious she has me on the end of her string. I think actually knowing that makes a difference in seeing things differently. I can see now when she's pulling on that string and I can see the game playing out. I'm still working on playing it better though, because she's still winning.

[SaltyDog]

I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. And while I wasn't full blown NGS, I certainly suffered from it to an extent. Two things that were eye-opening to me:

- Nice guys often proclaim to themselves that they are nice guys

This usually comes in the form of "deserving" something in return. For instance, a big one in NGS is thinking he deserves sex for being nice.

- Passive-aggressive tendencies

Nice guys like to exhibit a nice exterior but underneath are really being passive-aggressive in the things they say or do. Passive-aggressiveness is a big NGS red-flag.

The last one is the covert contrat. "If I am nice then X will give me Y." Again often in the context of sex. But notice, Nice Guys do not do something because it is nice. They are nice because they think then they will get what they want.

Anyway, the book is a great read. Many here have read it multiple times. It can't hurt to give it a look.

I am/was a full blown nice guy. Reading that book was like reading someone writing about me and I can look back and see how my being a nice guy lead me/us to where we are at now. I blamed myself for it as well, thinking it was all my fault. I'm now able to realize it wasn't just me and that she played just a big a part - whether she can admit it or not. Now it is finding ways to break those old habits when I see them pop up. That's a struggle.

[LH19]

Sending her pictures of playing with the kids to try and appeal to the mom/wife that used to be there
Asking how she's doing.
Get drunk and send lengthy emails explaining what I'm feeling, how I miss her, etc.
Get drunk and send guilt trip/angry messages
Snooping
Posting stupid, thinly veiled, passive aggressive things on Facebook

You just posted this so it looks like you have some more work to do.

[Ace_32]

Hi SaltyDog, i can relate to your last post as i can also see how certain NGS traits led me to the breakdown of our R. I also blamed myself for everything for a long time but like you im starting to see she had a big part in it as well. Know what you mean about the struggle, even if i know she is just temp checking or she is keeping me on a string i cant force myself to be blunt with her or ignore messages. I start to care and NGS comes out and as soon as it does her reactions change. Your response about the codependency also hits home, been trying to figure out why i want someone back that has hurt me so much and after all she has done and i dont have a good answer other than my self respect is so low that i feel thats all i deserve or its fear that i wont find someone else.

Reading your thread about the NGS got me thinking: is it correlation or causation that WW and NGS tend to end up together. It seems like more than a coincidence that most guys here with NGS end up having WW, and im wondering if these 2 personality types tend to be drawn/attracted to each other or if NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified). I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.

[LH19]

NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified).

Bingo!

I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.

Ace I am pretty sure you have always had NGS.

[SaltyDog]

Sending her pictures of playing with the kids to try and appeal to the mom/wife that used to be there
Asking how she's doing.
Get drunk and send lengthy emails explaining what I'm feeling, how I miss her, etc.
Get drunk and send guilt trip/angry messages
Snooping
Posting stupid, thinly veiled, passive aggressive things on Facebook

You just posted this so it looks like you have some more work to do.

I absolutely do, I haven't said otherwise. I can see all the dumb things I've done and do my best to recognize when the desire to do the next dumb thing comes up. Doesn't mean I won't do that dumb thing, but it is easier to avoid doing it when you are aware of it.

[SaltyDog]

Hi SaltyDog, i can relate to your last post as i can also see how certain NGS traits led me to the breakdown of our R. I also blamed myself for everything for a long time but like you im starting to see she had a big part in it as well. Know what you mean about the struggle, even if i know she is just temp checking or she is keeping me on a string i cant force myself to be blunt with her or ignore messages. I start to care and NGS comes out and as soon as it does her reactions change. Your response about the codependency also hits home, been trying to figure out why i want someone back that has hurt me so much and after all she has done and i dont have a good answer other than my self respect is so low that i feel thats all i deserve or its fear that i wont find someone else.

This all hits very close to home and I don't have a good answer either. My self-respect right now is probably higher than it has been in years. I'm healthier, stronger, happier, and feel like I am getting my purpose back, and that's all outside of her. I don't necessarily fear finding someone else either, part of me craves it and looks forward to a whole new life. And yet, I'm still here.

Reading your thread about the NGS got me thinking: is it correlation or causation that WW and NGS tend to end up together. It seems like more than a coincidence that most guys here with NGS end up having WW, and im wondering if these 2 personality types tend to be drawn/attracted to each other or if NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified). I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.

For me, I tend to pick broken women, fix them, and watch them leave once they get their sh!t together.

[Traveler]

My self-respect right now is probably higher than it has been in years.

That's fantastic, and I bet feels great.

I don't necessarily fear finding someone else either, part of me craves it and looks forward to a whole new life. And yet, I'm still here.

Hi Salty, "craving" someone else can be an attempt to recreate a co-dependency, especially if you begin dating while still open to reconciliation, or as soon as you decide not to reconcile. When the Co-Dependency Demon is defeated, one doesn't need another so badly or to complete them. Since I closed the door on reconciliation I've been solo and not dating for 2 months, and I intended to do so for a mother 2 months, to get my baggage in order. 4 months for a 4 year relationship to be ready for what's next.

[SaltyDog]

Hi Salty, "craving" someone else can be an attempt to recreate a co-dependency, especially if you begin dating while still open to reconciliation, or as soon as you decide not to reconcile. When the Co-Dependency Demon is defeated, one doesn't need another so badly or to complete them. Since I closed the door on reconciliation I've been solo and not dating for 2 months, and I intended to do so for a mother 2 months, to get my baggage in order. 4 months for a 4 year relationship to be ready for what's next.

I can see that as a way to get move from one co-dependency to another. And I should clarify, I am not craving to be with someone else any time soon, but I do crave to be with someone else at some point who treats me how I deserve to be treated.

[Traveler]

I should clarify, I am not craving to be with someone else any time soon, but I do crave to be with someone else at some point who treats me how I deserve to be treated.

Sounds healthy. I share and see nothing to fault in that desire!

[Mach1]

but I do crave to be with someone else at some point who treats me how I deserve to be treated.

How do you deserve to be treated ???

What does that look like ?

Why, exactly, do you "deserve" a certain treatment ?

[SaltyDog]

How do you deserve to be treated ???

With respect and as an equal.

What does that look like ?

Having my thoughts, feelings, and opinions "count."
Respecting my time - whether that means not being late for things or me being able to do things without guilt trips.
Essentially it is coming up with boundaries and enforcing them on my part.

Why, exactly, do you "deserve" a certain treatment ?

I think if you are going to be open, vulnerable, and honest with someone you deserve the same in return. And if they can't do it you are free to stop being open with them or free to leave.

Of course I say all that while dealing with my current situation. But I am mapping out my boundaries now - for both my personal and professional life.

[Traveler]

How do you deserve to be treated ???

Mach1, we deserve a certain level of treatment due to our common humanity, our shared community. The Silver Rule - "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." We deserve not to be abused, stolen from, or have our things vandalized. We deserve not to be frequently yelled at, criticized, or cheated on. We can leave such relationships, and in extreme cases police will fine or imprison offenders.

While I may not "deserve" an attractive, emotionally stable woman to fall for me and treat me with compassion and loyalty, I deserve no less than that in a romantic relationship, by virtue of self-esteem.

[Mach1]

How do you deserve to be treated ???

With respect and as an equal.

What does that look like ?

Having my thoughts, feelings, and opinions "count."

Respecting my time - whether that means not being late for things or me being able to do things without guilt trips.

Essentially it is coming up with boundaries and enforcing them on my part.

That sounds like a pretty "textbook" answer....



Then you hit on this...

Why, exactly, do you "deserve" a certain treatment ?

I think if you are going to be open, vulnerable, and honest with someone you deserve the same in return. And if they can't do it you are free to stop being open with them or free to leave.

Of course I say all that while dealing with my current situation. But I am mapping out my boundaries now - for both my personal and professional life.

IF.....

IF you are going to be open, vulnerable, and honest.....then you have "earned" the right to be treated with the same in return.

The word deserve has always bothered me. Like it is an inherited entitlement to be a certain way or to expect certain things without putting in the work to earn something.


deserved; deserving

Definition of deserve
transitive verb

: to be worthy of : MERIT

deserves another chance

What strikes me most, is that it is a verb. It requires action to achieve this...


I'm not asking you this to rile you up, or make you feel like schidt......

Yet I will ask you the same questions again....

How do you deserve to be treated ???

What does that look like ?

Why, exactly, do you "deserve" a certain treatment ?


Go deeper within yourself for those answers Dawg....

What have you done to deserve the treatment that you seek ????

[sandi2]

Mach1 asks those type of questions where you have to dig for the answer, right?

I think if you are going to be open, vulnerable, and honest with someone you deserve the same in return.

How do you define vulnerable in the sentence above?

Are you speaking about being a vulnerable man who has a WW?

[LH19]

What's up SD? How is in house separation going?

[LH19]

What's up SD?

[SaltyDog]

Hey everyone. Sorry for going radio silent, just didn't feel like I had anything new to add for a while. Which changed yesterday when I asked for a divorce.

Short version is we've been going back and forth, up and down, over the past few months. Some good days, some bad days. Both going to marriage counselor sessions. All that good stuff. She even wanted to look at buying a small beach bungalow down on the coast. I said that was not the best idea given our current situation, but she said it would still make good financial sense vs. renting the studio while we work things out. During this same time things started changing between us - still cordial and cooperative - but that extra intimacy feeling that had always been there left. We were just pals who were co-parenting.

She also had a weekend retreat planned in San Diego with the women's group she had joined which I agreed to because it made sense to wrap up all the stuff she had learned/gone through with them. Last week she sends me a message that she booked her trip, and that she was going for 2-weeks instead of the weekend. That was the final straw for me. I had been staying only at home but I went to the studio and have been here since Monday thinking things through. She knew something was up but gave me my space. She still has this idea that we'll be buddies when this is all over because we're such "good friends" and I'm such a "great dad" and she loves watching me with the kids, blah, blah, blah. And I keep telling her that isn't how it is going to be, and she can't seem to understand why not.

During this time I also started talking to an old friend on Facebook - my age and single. It is nothing romantic and I don't expect it ever to be, but the thing that also helped push me over the edge was talking with someone who was nice. Who seems interested in what I have to say. Who was happy and positive. And it was such a breath of fresh air and made me realize how much better things COULD be. Not with this friend, but just in general. The thought of throwing away all the baggage and BS just felt so appealing.

So then on Wednesday I sent her a note saying I'd be coming back on Saturday and I'd like to find some time for us to talk. She said sure and then a bit later responded asking if I wanted to talk because I was going to ask for a divorce and I said Yes. She says OK, and says she's sorry we didn't work out, again still wants to be friends, and all that good stuff. This morning I look on our joint credit card that she booked a place for her trip in wine country down there. So I send her a message saying that we need to also talk about finances moving forward because I am not going to help pay for these trips. And she goes BALLISTIC! How the F could I say that!? That I was being intentionally hurtful. That she was just seeing friends. That she has gone out of her way during all this to make things easy for me. And so on. We go back and forth and she finally starts calming down and says "I'm sorry. I just wasn't ready for the stab. I am still in mourning." And we left it at that.

Now we've got to move forward with separating things and figuring out next moves. I want to keep it as amicable as possible and avoid any kind of big divorce battle because that won't help anyone. But I am also not going to be naïve about it after seeing her blow up this morning.

Anyway, I felt like all of you who helped me along this road should know where things ended up. Thank you all for your help and patience with me along the way.

[LH19]

Which changed yesterday when I asked for a divorce.

I am sorry SaltyDog but you will be so much better off down the road.

During this time I also started talking to an old friend on Facebook - my age and single. It is nothing romantic and I don't expect it ever to be, but the thing that also helped push me over the edge was talking with someone who was nice. Who seems interested in what I have to say. Who was happy and positive.

I wish every LBS could get a glimpse of this in their situation.

She said sure and then a bit later responded asking if I wanted to talk because I was going to ask for a divorce and I said Yes. She says OK, and says she's sorry we didn't work out, again still wants to be friends, and all that good stuff.

Dude your W is a kook.

Make the necessary financial restrictions. Do not fund her affairs. Onward and upwards my friend.

[SaltyDog]

Which changed yesterday when I asked for a divorce.

I am sorry SaltyDog but you will be so much better off down the road.

During this time I also started talking to an old friend on Facebook - my age and single. It is nothing romantic and I don't expect it ever to be, but the thing that also helped push me over the edge was talking with someone who was nice. Who seems interested in what I have to say. Who was happy and positive.

I wish every LBS could get a glimpse of this in their situation.

She said sure and then a bit later responded asking if I wanted to talk because I was going to ask for a divorce and I said Yes. She says OK, and says she's sorry we didn't work out, again still wants to be friends, and all that good stuff.

Dude your W is a kook.

Make the necessary financial restrictions. Do not fund her affairs. Onward and upwards my friend.

Thanks LH - I appreciate all the time and help you gave me. And you're right about getting that glimpse - it's like eating tofu every day and thinking it is good and then someone comes along and gives you bacon. And she is a kook. She isn't the woman I married anymore.

[SteveLW]

SD, sorry things didn't return out, but you can move forward with your head held high that you gave out time and energy. And can move on without regrets.

[SaltyDog]

SD, sorry things didn't return out, but you can move forward with your head held high that you gave out time and energy. And can move on without regrets.

Thank you and you are 100% correct. I have a clear conscience I did all I could. Which is funny because through all that work to try and save things I ended up coming out the other end not wanting to. If I didn't do that, and was still who I was back in December, I'd likely feel like I lost a good thing because I was just focused on saving the marriage. It wasn't a marriage worth saving.

[LH19]

SD,

Just remember that your emotions are going to fluctuate so try to get a handle on them. You will have ups and downs for a really long time.

Stay strong!

[SaltyDog]

SD,

Just remember that your emotions are going to fluctuate so try to get a handle on them. You will have ups and downs for a really long time.

Stay strong!

Oh yeah - I'm with you on that already.

[SaltyDog]

The train to crazy-town has arrived at the station. All-aboard!!!

We went to lunch yesterday to discuss things and it started out very nice. Both of us were sad and hurting, but we also still felt that closeness that comes with being with someone for so long. As we are discussing some of the details I share how I've looked at different places to rent and where they are at. She is shocked. She was thinking we'd get another place together that is bigger than the studio and keep the nesting arrangement so the kids won't have to go back and forth. She used to go back and forth as a kid and I know she absolutely hated it, but it never occurred to me if we were divorcing that we'd continue that! Obviously things go sour from there. She tells me I'm being selfish, putting myself ahead of the kids, she can't afford the house or handle the upkeep, etc. etc. I basically shrug my shoulders and tell her I can't keep things the way they are and that I need to move on and start fresh. She says "So you want to erase me!" And again I'm left wondering WTF is going on? Of course I don't want to "erase" her, but it isn't like I still want her to be a part of my life beyond kids/parenting. That's what a divorce is. She says "why do we have to do what everyone else does?" I say "because that is what is needed to move forward!"

Anyway, we go back home and sit in the car talking, she calms down, acknowledges she's having a tough time with my new boundaries, and things are good again. She invites me to stay for dinner, end up spending the night, and things end on a nice note. Wake up this morning - and she's already mad at me. LOL! She's resentful of my boundaries, all that good stuff. We end up going to the studio to start breaking things down and figuring out who gets what. End up talking again - angry words, sad words, apologies, crying, etc. We come to an agreement that things don't have to happen NOW, we can take time and work things out without being angry, and come up with the best plan for all parties moving forward.

I get the feeling it's gonna be a bumpy ride. She is NOT liking the boundaries and it is much easier for me to enforce them with my current mindset of "it's over, I'm done" than my previous one that always held onto the lingering hope of things working out. The only thing that worries me is things going from amicable to contentious. We have agreed 100x to keep things amicable and to do what's best for the kids, but seeing her volatility over the past few days has me worried. I'm not going to give in or change my boundaries over fear of pissing her off, it just is giving me some anxiety.

[LH19]

SD,

Sounds like she is continuing to manipulate you. Nobody likes boundaries. So before you disappeared for awhile you were never going to the apartment and you caved. So I’m concerned you will cave again due to your anxiety. Everyone agrees to keep it amicable in the beginning. Sometimes is does sometimes it doesn’t. Not sure why you slept over I guess you’re a glutton for punishment. She’s going to drag this out as long as she can see she can continue to eat cake.

[SteveLW]

The train to crazy-town has arrived at the station. All-aboard!!!

We went to lunch yesterday to discuss things and it started out very nice. Both of us were sad and hurting, but we also still felt that closeness that comes with being with someone for so long. As we are discussing some of the details I share how I've looked at different places to rent and where they are at. She is shocked. She was thinking we'd get another place together that is bigger than the studio and keep the nesting arrangement so the kids won't have to go back and forth. She used to go back and forth as a kid and I know she absolutely hated it, but it never occurred to me if we were divorcing that we'd continue that! Obviously things go sour from there. She tells me I'm being selfish, putting myself ahead of the kids, she can't afford the house or handle the upkeep, etc. etc. I basically shrug my shoulders and tell her I can't keep things the way they are and that I need to move on and start fresh. She says "So you want to erase me!" And again I'm left wondering WTF is going on? Of course I don't want to "erase" her, but it isn't like I still want her to be a part of my life beyond kids/parenting. That's what a divorce is. She says "why do we have to do what everyone else does?" I say "because that is what is needed to move forward!"

Anyway, we go back home and sit in the car talking, she calms down, acknowledges she's having a tough time with my new boundaries, and things are good again. She invites me to stay for dinner, end up spending the night, and things end on a nice note. Wake up this morning - and she's already mad at me. LOL! She's resentful of my boundaries, all that good stuff. We end up going to the studio to start breaking things down and figuring out who gets what. End up talking again - angry words, sad words, apologies, crying, etc. We come to an agreement that things don't have to happen NOW, we can take time and work things out without being angry, and come up with the best plan for all parties moving forward.

I get the feeling it's gonna be a bumpy ride. She is NOT liking the boundaries and it is much easier for me to enforce them with my current mindset of "it's over, I'm done" than my previous one that always held onto the lingering hope of things working out. The only thing that worries me is things going from amicable to contentious. We have agreed 100x to keep things amicable and to do what's best for the kids, but seeing her volatility over the past few days has me worried. I'm not going to give in or change my boundaries over fear of pissing her off, it just is giving me some anxiety.

This is another reason I'm not a fan of nesting. Sets a bad precedent. If I were you I would not budge on that. Nesting is not sustainable. I agree with you that to start fresh that needs to end. She hated going back and forth as a kid, but I guarantee of her parents would have nested she would have hated that too. Kids hate when their parents divorce, no matter what the arrangement. But their dad being miserable isn't going to improve that any. So you have to do things you want that will make you happy as well.

You're right about a bumpy ride. Anytime she doesn't get what she wants she will flip out. But your pigs, not your farm.

[LH19]

Your silence scares me dog!

[SaltyDog]

Your silence scares me dog!

It's all good - just dealing with a ton of work stuff. Because I needed more stress in my life! lol.

So before you disappeared for awhile you were never going to the apartment and you caved. So I’m concerned you will cave again due to your anxiety.

Should've clarified - going back to the apartment was 100% my idea. I was originally looking for a place to go to just GTFO and take a long hard look at things. It didn't make sense to pay for a place when I already had one that could serve that purpose. It was while I was there that I was able to really come to the conclusion to move on. I haven't gone back since and ended the least at the end of the month. She's looking for a place now because she says our house it too big for her to manage. That surprised me because her family gave us the $ for the down payment, I was assuming she'd keep the house.

Things have settled down between us for the most part. She did come over yesterday and helped with some backyard projects we had started and need to be finished. She made numerous comments on how good I look and in the past I would look at those as being good signs, and now I find that I am ambivalent when I hear them. She's pushed my boundaries a few times and I've pushed right back, and to my surprise she "seems" to be accepting them.

I leave on Friday for an 8-day trip by myself to go hiking, fishing, kayaking, etc. and can not wait!

[LH19]

That surprised me because her family gave us the $ for the down payment, I was assuming she'd keep the house.

Yeah when they want out they want out and are willing to give up everything.

She's pushed my boundaries a few times and I've pushed right back, and to my surprise she "seems" to be accepting them.

Good!

I leave on Friday for an 8-day trip by myself to go hiking, fishing, kayaking, etc. and can not wait!

Sounds awesome!

[SteveLW]

[quote=LH19]She made numerous comments on how good I look and in the past I would look at those as being good signs, and now I find that I am ambivalent when I hear them.

SaltyDog, one of the best learnings a LBS can learn is that words are just words. And meaningless without action behind them! Good job on staying ambivalent. That shows that your detachment is well on its way.

[Traveler]

She made numerous comments on how good I look and in the past I would look at those as being good signs, and now I find that I am ambivalent when I hear them.

It's great you're no longer overanalyzing her meanings. "You look great"--it's okay to feel ambivalent today, validated your workouts are bearing fruit tomorrow, and sad it's not enough to rekindle the relationship this weekend. I agree not overanalyzing is a sign you're making progress on detaching.

She's pushed my boundaries a few times and I've pushed right back, and to my surprise she "seems" to be accepting them.

Sticking to boundaries--wonderful! "You: I won't be talked to that way on the phone. Her: Well, you're a monkey's--CLICK." Boundaries don't attempt to influence others, so it's also fine if she doesn't accept them. Keep setting healthy boundaries (which control you and your behavior) and reap the rewards.

I leave on Friday for an 8-day trip by myself to go hiking, fishing, kayaking, etc. and can not wait!

Fantastic. I'm envious. Enjoy your GAL. (:

[SaltyDog]

Howdy all! It's been a while so thought an update was in order.

In exactly 1 week she is closing on a house and moving out, I am keeping our current home. So things are progressing. The last few months have been OK for the most part - with a few hiccups here and there. The short version is I am now the one pushing the separation/divorce and she is having second thoughts. I don't know if it is because of the changes I've made to be a better person, if it is because all her side-dudes fell thru, if it is because she's realizing what this all really means going forward, or a combination of all the above. But she's been trying to pull me back and I am not letting her. It came to a head on a call with our counselor who is helping guide us thru this when she asked where each of us were and I said I was done and moving on. Of course, that makes me the a-hole now. Funny how that works.

The latest blow up came because I wasn't going to take time off of work to help her get situated in the new house - hang drapes, move furniture, etc. I did tell her I would help her move, because it is not just her stuff it is the boys' as well and I think it would be a dick move not to help her, but I am not going to build desks! Of course, this makes me a selfish a-hole as well. She has been packing her stuff up and got mad I wasn't helping - which isn't true because I've helped her pick up furniture, fixed things that she bought, and managed to jenga together 2 households' worth of stuff in the garage.

I've tried, and succeeded for the most part, to not take the bait or engage in fights when she throws out digs left and right but it is really hard now that I am done with all of it. But I don't want it to turn ugly - especially before she's actually out of the house. So I enforce the boundaries I can, suck it up otherwise, and keep an eye on the calendar. It's gonna be a long week...

[LH19]

SD,

She’s not having second thoughts if she has bought a house and is moving out. Probably doesn’t like that fact that you are detaching from here. Sounds like your NGS is still kicking in. Stick with the board and we can maneuver you through til the end.

You have no idea what a blessing this will be for you.

Keep on keeping on.

[SteveLW]

SD up in this mug! Good to see you.

Unbelievable how entitled WSs are, expecting you to interrupt your life to help her leave you. SMH Way to stick to your guns! Remember, command respect. She might not like you but she will respect you!!

[97Hope]

Hey hey Salty!! Good to see you are doing well.

I wonder what you would say to me if I wrote that my XH was mad at me for not helping him move out of my house? And that he said I was an ay hole for not building furniture...and that the reason he is moving out is because he cheated on me and dropped a bomb on me a year ago?

What would you tell me?

I understand keeping the peace, especially when she's almost gone, but something I think to myself when XH would go through the cycle of charm/anger/blame with me was "you have no power here, Gandolf" and it helped.

I like the idea of picking your battles, and helping her move is certainly your choice, but as soon as she's out, you are going to have to really hold tight to your boundaries because she will use the heck out of you if you don't (ask me how I know). : /

[SaltyDog]

SD,

She’s not having second thoughts if she has bought a house and is moving out. Probably doesn’t like that fact that you are detaching from here.

She literally said she was having second thoughts in our session, but I think it is more that reality is setting in. She's had this warped sense of what things were going to look like between us from the get go. She was talking about still going on family trips, having Sunday dinners, etc. but now she's finally realizing that ain't gonna be happening and she is going to be alone and I think it's scaring the crap out of her.

Sounds like your NGS is still kicking in.

It's a battle, for sure, but nowhere near how it used to be. Tomorrow is our youngest's b-day party at the house and I've been getting things ready while she's packing and doing her stuff. I'll do what I think is reasonable to help but I'm not going to fall for the victim BS again.

[SaltyDog]

SD up in this mug! Good to see you.

Unbelievable how entitled WSs are, expecting you to interrupt your life to help her leave you. SMH Way to stick to your guns! Remember, command respect. She might not like you but she will respect you!!

It's so true. She's so angry right now and I'm saying "this is what you've been wanting all along!"But somehow I am now the one who is destroying the family. lol.

[SaltyDog]

Hey hey Salty!! Good to see you are doing well.

I wonder what you would say to me if I wrote that my XH was mad at me for not helping him move out of my house? And that he said I was an ay hole for not building furniture...and that the reason he is moving out is because he cheated on me and dropped a bomb on me a year ago?

What would you tell me?

I hear you loud and clear. I had a session with my counselor and as I was saying out loud all the things that she wants me to do, all the things she's done over the past year, and all I've gone thru I just laughed at the idea of helping her. I just need to keep all that in mind and not feel sorry or fall for the guilt trips.

I understand keeping the peace, especially when she's almost gone, but something I think to myself when XH would go through the cycle of charm/anger/blame with me was "you have no power here, Gandolf" and it helped.

I like that. I've noticed of late when she yells or gets mad or sends nasty texts I am able to brush it off and not take it personally like I used to. I don't engage (for the most part) which of course makes her more angry.

I like the idea of picking your battles, and helping her move is certainly your choice, but as soon as she's out, you are going to have to really hold tight to your boundaries because she will use the heck out of you if you don't (ask me how I know). : /

Thank you for reminder. Having these boundaries is new for me and uncomfortable at times, but I am enjoying the freedom they give. I keep thinking about the quote that goes along the lines of "the people who are most angry when you enforce your boundaries are the ones who benefited the most from you not having any." Keeping that in mind helps.

[OnlyBent]

Hey SD, good to see you back and posting. I can really empathise with what you're going through mate, none of this is easier but you sound like you're doing ok.

It's so true. She's so angry right now and I'm saying "this is what you've been wanting all along!"But somehow I am now the one who is destroying the family. lol.

I got this as well, I've been getting anger fairly consistently for the last 12 months. She complained to me once how hard it was moving out, how she left her beautiful home and all her nice things and didn't get to see S4 all the time. I responded that this was what she wanted and it was like a volcano of anger, how dare you blame me for this, blah blah blah. Despite her making me promise that our family was the most important thing and to that I would never let anyone or anything come between the 3 of us, she blames me that we can't still be a close famliy.

I figure it must just be easier to blame someone else rather than take responsibility. Its hard but I guess you just have to see it for what it is. It isn't personal, its just them finding an excuse to not be culpable for the destruction they have caused.

[LH19]

She literally said she was having second thoughts in our session, but I think it is more that reality is setting in.

SD think actions not words. Are buying a house, packing and moving out signs of someone having second thoughts. Interesting you would after all this time listen to words.

[Traveler]

Hi SaltyDog, I agree with LH that buying a new house and moving into it don't seem like indicators of someone having second doubts. They seem more like indicators of someone trying to guilt trip you into more help. You are free to help as little or as much as you like. Personally, I have let most ex's do their own moving, but I'm not opposed to helping them packup or get their things onto a truck if it expedites getting my place clear of their things. Glad you are doing well, Salty. (:

[BL42]

She literally said she was having second thoughts in our session, but I think it is more that reality is setting in.

SD think actions not words. Are buying a house, packing and moving out signs of someone having second thoughts. Interesting you would after all this time listen to words.

Hi SaltyDog, I agree with LH that buying a new house and moving into it don't seem like indicators of someone having second doubts. They seem more like indicators of someone trying to guilt trip you into more help. You are free to help as little or as much as you like. Personally, I have let most ex's do their own moving, but I'm not opposed to helping them packup or get their things onto a truck if it expedites getting my place clear of their things. Glad you are doing well, Salty. (:

It's possible to have second thoughts about a decision yet continue the actions which take you down a particular path. That's life. In anything, not just a D, people have to make decisions and aren't always confident they're choosing correctly...but that also doesn't mean they go back the other way. Could be lying or a guilt trip for help, but also completely possible is she having second thoughts yet is and will continue to move out and towards D.

New Thread:

Another LBH (not kinda) pt. 6