I was here almost 15 years ago, M#1 ended in D. A short time later I met a new woman who became my W. Unfortunately, I am back. I guess I didn’t learn anything after all? Anyway…
W and I have been together ~12 years, married almost 10, I'm 41 she's 40. Three kids, 9S, 5S, and 4D.
The big issue with us: I'm bad with sex and affection. I like it and never reject my W, but I'm poor at initiating both sexual and non-sexual affection. It's just not how I show love, I'm more of an acts of service and quality time person, but it is what she needs. This has been a problem here and there throughout the M. She would ask for more, I improve for a while, then I backslide, she gets resentful and goes cold and distant, I feel pushed away so have even less desire to be affectionate, vicious cycle.
Early 2018 we had a big fight. About this and other things she was unhappy about. She says during this she wants a D. She says to just leave her alone and let her do her thing. So I do, I basically do DBing for a while. Things improve. No further mention of D. But whenever I do try to meet her needs she is not very receptive and overall still feels distant.
End of 2018, she goes back to work after 7 years. This was always planned so nothing weird here, but she worked a ton. Like by Fall 2019 I am basically a single parent much of the week as she’s gone all the time. I have no reason to believe there was an OM, she said the other day there was not and she just did this to stay away from the failing M. I believe her.
Fall 2019 we have a huge fight about this stuff. I had built up a lot of resentment that she was never home anymore—like I said, acts of service and quality time--so my needs were never met. She even totally forgot middle son's bday. Her needs obviously weren’t being met either so she remained resentful herself. The fight doesn’t go well, she tells me she wants me to move out of the bedroom to a spare room. I say no, if she wants to leave she can. She does not.
At this point I went to IC for about 5 months, trying to figure things out, both with myself and what I wanted with the M. Of course part of it was do I really want to stay married to her. Ultimately I decide yes, if things can improve.
I figure if this is to get better one of us has to change something so I decide to be nicer. We go on some dates, which we hadn't done in forever. I feel like some progress was made over the first few months of 2020. I write her a letter about how I feel about her and the things I’d like out of our MR. We have done this from time to time in the past and me expressing my feelings and needs is a big 180. She ignores it. I try to talk about it, she doesn’t want to. I drop it, but this really pushes me away.
Then the pandemic hit, IC stops, the kids are home all the time, both of us are working at home trying to manage work and school and parenting. It is busy and stressful and we go back to focusing on anything but the M, we slide easily back into the rut of being basically roommates.
At some point I re-read DB. I knew we were in trouble. Since 2021 started she became even more distant, on weekends she might stay in bed the vast majority of the day just listening to music and being on her phone. We were living separate lives in the same house. I did not feel she was in a place to work on the M so I never pushed anything. I was always kind of thinking “let’s let her find herself a better place first” and that was probably a mistake as it was just too long. In the mean time I work on myself, always try to be a good dad, improve diet and exercise, rekindle some hobbies I’d dropped. Other than the M I am pretty good with how life is at this point.
Last week she told me she wanted a D. I was not all that surprised after the past few months. She accepts that we are both to blame, but doesn’t really want to talk about it much, she already accepted the death of the M and won’t go to MC. I didn’t beg or plead or any of that kind of stuff other than asking if she would try MC, tried to be as validating as possible.
So where are we and why am I here? I am not sure. We have not had a real loving M in either direction for several years, no one’s needs have been met for a long time. If I'm honest with myself, the real bomb was in 2018 and the M was basically dead since then. If I'm really honest with myself: I probably wasn’t that far from being a WAH myself if not for the kids. In other words, the status quo was not working and if that’s all that’s left then D is the right thing to do.
At the same time I am hurting and am quite sad. I know that we were in love and think we could get there again, I’d love to go back to where we were a few years ago when we enjoyed each other. That was a long time ago and might be too far at this point, but I would like to try and see what happens. She said I am still her best friend but the D is the best thing for her and that’s that.
Believe me, I’m not surprised at any of this, she has spent a long time without feeling loved. I feel terrible about that part, especially since I should have known better having done this before—I hope it’s clear that I fully understand why I’m here and what I could have done differently. I was also way too passive in hoping she would get into a better place without me doing anything, but I can't do anything about that now.
FWIW, my relationship with the kids seems great. We have not told them anything yet. My heart aches for them and how they will deal with this.
Anyway, that’s it for now. Thanks for reading.
Hi Mako,
Sorry to see you back on the board.
You know how DB works - give her plenty of time and space. Detach, and do not push for MC right now.
What attracted your W to you when you first met?
The big issue with us: I'm bad with sex and affection. I like it and never reject my W, but I'm poor at initiating both sexual and non-sexual affection. It's just not how I show love, I'm more of an acts of service and quality time person, but it is what she needs. This has been a problem here and there throughout the M.
Hi Mako,
Sounds normal. Your natural love languages aren't a perfect match, which requires effort on her part to remind you what she needs, and effort on your part to remember what she needs.
I improve for a while, then I backslide,
This sounds more like "acting how she wanted" for awhile than an improved mako per se.
she gets resentful and goes cold and distant,
Stonewalling. This kills relationships.
Early 2018 we had a big fight. She says during this she wants a D.
Oh no! This is an easy 180, one I'm surprised you didn't learn your first time here--stop fighting. You 100% control whether you get into fights. It sounds like you were headed here even before the fight, though.
. This was always planned so nothing weird here, but she worked a ton. Like by Fall 2019 I am basically a single parent much of the week as she’s gone all the time. I have no reason to believe there was an OM, she said the other day there was not and she just did this to stay away from the failing M.
I think you missed a boundary here that would have been helpful, here. Walking away from you shouldn't have meant she also got to walk away carefree from her responsibilities to the children.
Fall 2019 we have a huge fight about this stuff. I had built up a lot of resentment that she was never home anymore
This sounds like your biggest goof so far--tolerating a situation you disliked, building up resentment towards her, and then fighting. Both partners are usually responsible for a failing relationship.
The fight doesn’t go well
Unless it ends in make-up sex, do fights ever go well?!
she tells me she wants me to move out of the bedroom to a spare room. I say no, if she wants to leave she can. She does not.
Well done!
I decide to be nicer. We go on some dates, which we hadn't done in forever. I feel like some progress was made over the first few months of 2020.
Yay!
I write her a letter about how I feel about her and the things I’d like out of our MR. We have done this from time to time in the past and me expressing my feelings and needs is a big 180. we slide easily back into the rut of being basically roommates.
I get it. Your wife's commitment was low enough she wasn't willing to put in the effort but was willing to try as long as you did, and then you stopped trying when it didn't move quickly enough. Maybe it would have worked out if she were more receptive or you tried longer, maybe it would have ended this way either way.
I work on myself, always try to be a good dad, improve diet and exercise, rekindle some hobbies I’d dropped. Other than the M I am pretty good with how life is at this point.
There are obvious positives to this!
Last week she told me she wanted a D. I was not all that surprised after the past few months. She accepts that we are both to blame, but doesn’t really want to talk about it much, she already accepted the death of the M and won’t go to MC.
Sounds.. reasonable? It's been 3 years since she first asked? I wouldn't be surprised if between the workaholic hours and the hours in her bedroom on her phone she's started or about to start an EA.
I didn’t beg or plead or any of that kind of stuff other than asking if she would try MC, tried to be as validating as possible.
It sounds like you handled the conversation well.
I guess I didn’t learn anything after all?
This seems patently untrue. Learning from one failed relationship isn't a panacea. I will be a better partner in my next relationship. You and I will never be perfect partners!
Mako, I'm sorry you're here. I don't see anything in the above painting your wife as evil or you as a fool. I hope you continue to write about your journey here. You already know the relevant links.
I was never particularly affectionate, and communication wasn't that great, taking each other for granted. I love her greatly, but I foolishly didn't treat her that way. My lack of affection toward her (I've never been a terribly affectionate person) and our lack of communication gave her serious doubts about the relationship.
I just read your first post from 13 years ago. It's interesting that both partners cited your lack of affection in the breakdown. Didn't they know that about your personality before they married you? It sounds like you view this as a flaw, so I wonder if you acted differently when courting them vs. after marriage.
Wow Mako, I am reliving my past reading your post. First, welcome back, sorry you are hear and going through this. But also thank you for sharing your story. I hope we can help each other.
I first discovered MWD in 2005. That fall my W had an EA with an old flame from Jr. High. I noticed some strange behavior from her, staying up much later in the night, not coming to bed until after 2am. She always had an excuse, most of it related to work she was trying complete. One night I watched a sporting event, my favorite player of that sport was retiring and that event was his final event of career. I was so excited at how well he was playing I jumped out of bed (it was pretty late) ran down to the office in the house, and when I came through the door to share my excitement with my W, I noticed she switched windows on her computer really quickly and in a rush. At first I didn't think much of it, but I shared my excitement and returned to bed. At 4am that night I sat bolt upright in bed in a panic. I just had a dream she had cheated on me. When I woke up it woke her up and she asked me what was wrong. I told her about the dream and of course she assured me that things were fine. But I couldn't get the dream nor remembering her switch windows on her computer, and I started to slowing investigate. I found this strange name on her IM client, and questioned her. "He is an old friend. We IM sometimes. blah blah blah." I finally installed spy software on our computer and caught her red-handed.
She immediately said she didn't want to get a D, she wanted to save the marriage. She agreed to send him a cease-and-desist, block his IM account and end contact. (She did slip up one time after that but for the most part kept her agreement.) We slowly began to R. I became a human vacuum, sucking up everything I could read, watch and listen to related to saving your marriage, being a better husband, fixing intimacy issues in your MR (we were a SSM). But slowly over time I slipped back into my old habits of resentment, criticizing her, isolating myself, not sharing my life with her, etc. And it slowly began to simmer again. Then to boil. And finally the explosion came in the form of another EA in Dec. 2017, but this time her immediately saying she wanted a D.
Where I related so much to you was that I didn't learn from my first sitch. I bandaided it, buried it under the rug, and went back to living my life and slowly slipping back into the old ways that had worked their way into causing issue #1. The only different was I made the same mistake twice with the same woman, you've made with two different women.
If I'm honest with myself, the real bomb was in 2018 and the M was basically dead since then. If I'm really honest with myself: I probably wasn’t that far from being a WAH myself if not for the kids. In other words, the status quo was not working and if that’s all that’s left then D is the right thing to do.
That really hit home for me. Up until BD 12/23/2017 I was very close to walking away myself as well. That anger, bitterness, and resentment at our SSM, and having had two EAs myself in the 7 years prior to sitch #2 (both were very close to becoming full PAs before they ended), in those years I thought about D quite a lot, but just like you just couldn't imagine doing that to my daughter. So I stayed, was miserable, and was making her and my daughter miserable too.
When I confronted her about the EA in Dec 2017, I was very calm. Very firm. I had my gameplan down and was following it to a tee. Until she dropped "I don't want to be married anymore". Those words triggered in me the fight side of fight or flight. And I wasn't going down without a fight! For the next two days I was mopey, sad, clingy. I begged, cried, pleaded, reasoned, tried to use logic. But on day three I woke up and remembered DBing. I started reading and watching MWD and others that used the back off, remove all pressure, go out and get a life, become the best version of me I could, and detach approach. I started trying to implement that plan to the best of my ability and had some good DB days, some not so good DB days.
You are at that same point, and I feel for you because your story transported me right back to that last week of Dec, 2017. I know you are spinning, freaking out, followed by periods of calm and peace where you start thinking clearly, only to go back to the former again. It is an awful place to be. But you know what to do: GAL, 180s and detach. Focus on you and the kids, remove all pressure and pursuit from her. We are here to help, to listen, to support, to exhort. Hang in there, brother!
If you are still reading after all of that, at this point all you can do is DB!
Hi Mako,
Sorry to see you back on the board.
You know how DB works - give her plenty of time and space. Detach, and do not push for MC right now.
What attracted your W to you when you first met?
Thanks Thornton. Yep, I know what I gotta do, now just gotta do it.
I don't know, we used to enjoy each other's company so much. Similar sense of humor, similar world view. We used to play together a lot--games, puzzles, hikes, etc. Nowadays, not so much.
I'll be honest, I wasn't super happy for a lot of the past 9 years or so. I love my kids, but parenting was something that really stressed me out and overwhelmed me and it took me a long time to get over that. I know having a baby or toddler for 9 straight years isn't unique or anything, but it wore me down and I think I had a not very good attitude for a time. That certainly wore on her as well. Funny enough, what really got me over the hump was when she was gone all the time and I really gained a lot of parenting confidence with doing so much myself without her. I think that has really prepped me for the potential upcoming single dad life.
This seems patently untrue. Learning from one failed relationship isn't a panacea. I will be a better partner in my next relationship. You and I will never be perfect partners!
Mako, I'm sorry you're here. I don't see anything in the above painting your wife as evil or you as a fool. I hope you continue to write about your journey here. You already know the relevant links.
CW thanks for the posts. A lot of your comments were pretty much on the mark and I appreciate it. You are right, all we can do is try to keep getting better.
I just read your first post from 13 years ago. It's interesting that both partners cited your lack of affection in the breakdown. Didn't they know that about your personality before they married you? It sounds like you view this as a flaw, so I wonder if you acted differently when courting them vs. after marriage.
Yeah, that is interesting. I don't think I act any differently during dating vs marriage, so yeah you'd think they'd know what they were getting into. Or perhaps they didn't realize the importance to them until later. No I don't view this as a flaw per se, more generally that failing to meet my partner's needs, especially this time when I had a lot more knowledge about everything, is a flaw. In the future maybe it would be better for everyone if I find someone whose love language better aligns with mine!
Steve thanks for the comments. I knew I couldn't be the only person around here who has been here before, and your sitch sure looks familiar. You are right when you said that instead of really learning the first time maybe it was just a bandaid that got put on then tossed when it seemed it was no longer needed. I swore I'd never end up here again, and well...
You are at that same point, and I feel for you because your story transported me right back to that last week of Dec, 2017. I know you are spinning, freaking out, followed by periods of calm and peace where you start thinking clearly, only to go back to the former again. It is an awful place to be. But you know what to do: GAL, 180s and detach. Focus on you and the kids, remove all pressure and pursuit from her. We are here to help, to listen, to support, to exhort. Hang in there, brother!
If you are still reading after all of that, at this point all you can do is DB!
Yep, I know what to do, now just a matter of doing it.
One good thing about doing it before...all the stuff like "you can make yourself a better person with or without her, you can live without her, you won't die..." etc. I know all that already
Whatever happens with W I will make it through.
Yep, I know what I gotta do, now just gotta do it.
I wish I could have seen you face to face and heard your voice when making the statement above. To me, I hear a tone of ..............
dread? Is it b/c you feel as if history is repeating itself? If I'm no where close, you can correct me.
You seem to recognize the areas that need your personal work the most, which is a good thing, IMHO. I don't know if it comes from a place of weariness, since you went down this road in your first M........or if it's a tiny touch of laziness. It's as if you see it as something you have to force yourself to do. Here's the thing, Mako. You've said in both marriages that you weren't very affectionate and you did not show love that way. Maybe it was your old thread, IDK, you said you basically waited on the W to initiate sex. What if you married a woman just like you? There would never be any love making!
Now
some women do not have any problem initiating sex with their H, but on the other hand, some women do. They are responders and like for the H to seduce them. The W could feel that her H saw her undesirable, or unattractive, or he simply didn't care, etc., if it did not come naturally to touch her. I think it could be a real killer to her esteem, b/c she carries those concerns over to doubting he even loves her. There are two types of touching. One is reserved just for your W, b/c these include sexual areas of the body. The other type of touching is completely non-sexual touching. A couple should be able to give these nonsexual touches throughout the day. From my experience and my observation of other couples, the nonsexual touches come first in the relationship, and end last. If you are uncomfortable with nonsexual touching.......that should be a concern, IMHO.
Although it's a bit rare to see a LBH on the board admit his primary LL isn't physical touch, I don't think it's an indication something is wrong with him. I'll admit, however, since you started both initial threads (first with W #1 and now with W #2) almost identically, it does raise a red flag. You've explained in both cases (W#1 & #2) your lack of showing affection. I get the impression it must be pretty severe, if this was the main issue for both women. And, if so........I would strongly recommend seeing a professional as to why you aren't interested or try avoid it. Most women like physical closeness with her H, like snuggling together while watching a movie, or sitting close together with the H's arm over the shoulder of his W. It doesn't mean it's going to lead to sex.........it just means she likes to feel your nearness. and she may feel secure when your arms are around her. The snuggling is just one tiny example.
Did I read, or thought I read where there were no goodbye kisses, hello or goodnight kisses......unless your W initiated it? Is any nonsexual physical affection for your W shown in front of your children?
I can't tell how much or little this may concern you, but I think demonstrating affection is definitely an important area in a relationship. When demonstrating any physical affection completely stops.......it's going to have a negative, and unhealthy side effect. One more question on physical touch. What about showing affection for your kids? What do you do to demonstrate affection for them? Please answer these questions.
Heh, yes there might be a little bit of dread there. I mean, I know the drill, this is not going to be a fun process, even if it is good and important and ultimately results in a better me. Assuming D occurs, in the best case situation I am going to see my kids a lot less. Financially we are going to be worse off. The future is a lot less clear now, and it’s scary.
I agree with what you’re saying Sandi, and I totally understand my W’s point of view. I said above that it wasn’t really a flaw per se, but maybe it is. Any physical touching has been nonexistent in the M for a long time. Maybe it wasn’t always quite so bad. It’s the chicken and egg—the marriage is dead because of this, or there’s no touching because the marriage is dead. Either way, there wasn’t enough, and she was the initiator much more than me. It’s not as if I don’t like it or it makes me uncomfortable, it’s almost like it just doesn’t occur to me to do. I’m going to need to spend time in IC and figure this stuff out. My W actually thinks I may be autistic or have some sort of anxiety disorder and maybe she’s right. This was explored a bit in previous IC with no real resolution but it’s something to look into. That’s probably beyond the scope of this board
Interestingly, I have no problem showing affection with the kids, giving them hugs and kisses and cuddles. So that’s good! But it probably made my W feel even worse. Why is it different for them? I have no idea.
So W decided she wanted to go look at places to live, and she asked if I wanted to come. I had nothing to do and the kids were accounted for with the in laws so said what the heck I'll come along. So we looked around at local places where we might want to live, separately. This was a bit surreal and it is odd to me she asked me to go.
We have agreed to a 50-50 custody, so it's important for both of us to be at least somewhat in agreement with where we live, for convenience of the custody situation. For example, I don't want to live an hour away from her and it be difficult with the kids every week or whatever. Neither of us wants to stay in our current house. We've only been here a couple years so neither us nor the kids are super attached, and neither of us really wants to stay in the place where our marriage died.
As an aside, I think if this had happened to me in my first M it would have freaked me the F out, but while there were a few low points I was pretty much fine all day. Yes, it is reasonable to try and figure out where I might want to live when all of this is over. Like I said, where we live is going to matter to both of us and to the kids, so might as well think about it. Thinking about it is not going to change what my W thinks one way or the other so why not?
We had a few misses, and we also found a nice neighborhood that both of us really like. TBH if it was 4 years ago we probably would have moved there together. As of now I don't know, I need to think about it, but I think I could see myself there. It's still going to be some time until all that happens, but it's a start in figuring that part out anyway.
I think doing this and being alright with it is a good sign of starting to successfully detach. Don't get me wrong, I am still having difficulty eating with constant butterflies in the stomach and it's tough sleeping well so I am nowhere near all the way there, BD was really just a week ago after all. But it's something.
mako,
So W decided she wanted to go look at places to live, and she asked if I wanted to come. I had nothing to do and the kids were accounted for with the in laws so said what the heck I'll come along. So we looked around at local places where we might want to live, separately. This was a bit surreal and it is odd to me she asked me to go.
Not sure I would've gone house/apartment shopping with my spouse who wanted to move out / get divorced. Maybe at the beginning of my sitch, thinking for some bizarre reason it might help, but NO WAY where I'm at right now. Seems a bit like helping the undertaker measure you for your burial suit. Your time might've been better spent at the gym or lunch with friends instead. I'm no veteran here - I'm a year in - but just my $0.02.
Ha I love the detachment but I think you should have better things to do than help house hunt! Like anything else.
Ha, I hear you guys.
My head is probably in a really unusual place right now where I’m still sad and raw and would love to work on the M but am somewhat detached at the same time. Maybe this is because the M has been slowly dying for some time and I’ve gone through a bit of IC about it already so I had come to terms with some things. It also helps that I do still enjoy spending time with her, if I was aware of an A or something things would probably be different.
I agree with ovrrnbw. Those two are mutually exclusive. You can be detached and still not go with her on her house-hunting journey. I know you are well versed in DB from your first sitch, but being her "buddy" is probably not where you want to be long term. It sounds like it was a decent time, but I am an advocate of being supportive of your WAS' desire to leave without actually helping them along that way.
For instance, my W wanted to work on her resume and even get interviewing books to prepare for her job search. She asked me if it was okay for her to buy the books. I told her "get whatever you need". However, I refused to help her write and edit her resume. We all have to draw our own line somewhere. You drew your line further than I would, doesn't make it wrong! But I do think you need to decide if you want to be her lover or her friend. And if you want to be her lover then do not settle for the latter.
. . .being her "buddy" is probably not where you want to be long term. . . . But I do think you need to decide if you want to be her lover or her friend. And if you want to be her lover then do not settle for the latter.
Thanks Steve,
this is the way of saying it that got through to me. I agree, still holding out for the former. Like you said with the resume, no need to go above and beyond for things that only really lead to the latter.
M,
I am really impressed with how you are handling this and how prepared you are the second go around. I am going to disagree with the consensus and say I don't have a problem with you doing it. If I am reading your sitch correct there is no sign of OM. You have a stake in the game because it will be a place your kids will be 50% of the time. It's all about attitude. If you are exuding confidence and detachment I see no problem.
Bottom line is go or don't go and it changes nothing right now. This is going to probably take years to play out.
Yesterday we went (well, went on Zoom) to a mediator to start figuring out the splitting of property. We have done an excellent job in saving over the years which is great, but it's going to be annoying to basically cut the pie in half to support two households. I have outlined what I think is fair and she has been mostly receptive so far but hasn't been specific about the larger things so we'll see. Custody will be 50-50, I will still need to pay child support because I make a lot more than her, this is set by statute so that's easy to figure out at least. Alimony is iffy but at the very least it would most likely be short term. Again, we'll see. My stomach was in knots all day as this is just another step closer to D. More detachment needed.
We have been pleasant to each other so that's good, a lot of sitch's seem to have a lot of meanness in them but we are doing ok there. We both work at home but in different parts of the house (which we've done the past year anyway) so we don't see each other much unless we get lunch at the same time. At night she mostly just hangs out in our room so I hang out with the kids and then do my own thing when they go to bed. We are still in the same bed. As I noted above, I've always been of the idea that she can leave if she chooses but I am not leaving the bed. She slept in a different room the first night then came back.
This is how I feel about the house too, I'm not leaving unless we sell it and both leave. She has still been looking at apartments online. We have not planned another house hunting outing
It's been just 10 days since BD and I have lots of conflicting emotions. Like I said, sometimes my stomach is just in knots thinking about all this, and sometimes I'm looking forward to being out on my own and starting fresh.
I haven't been here in a while, so an update.
Above I said I wasn't leaving the house. However, shortly after that post we agreed to separate. So we're alternating weeks, where one stays at our house and the other stays at their respective parents' house. This has been fine. I don't know if this was "right" or "wrong" but I don't care. It keeps some bit of normalcy for the kids and I've gotten to see more of my dad. Otherwise she was going to get an apartment and have them go back and forth and that seemed like a waste of money and not great for them. They'll have plenty of time for that later. Anyway, we're prepping to sell the house in the next couple months so this is short term anyway.
So far the weeks on are good, the weeks off are tough. I enjoy time with the kids and miss them. I've actually enjoyed doing work on the house that I had put off. When I'm away I feel somewhat lost, as it's in a temporary space and not really mine. I am looking forward to having my own place and setting up a home for myself. This last house, we moved in 3 years ago and the M was dying the whole time--it never felt like home to me.
After mulling it over for a good couple weeks, the other day I wrote her a last love letter, explaining how I felt through the past 12 years of knowing her. I know this is not in line with DBing, and one might call it a slip up but I don't think it was. It was something I needed to do for myself as I haven't always expressed my feelings to her all that well. I had no expectations of reconciliation so the intention was not pursuit, it came from another place, I don't know. She may have taken it that way and I know when spouses leave this isn't what they want, but that doesn't really matter at this point. TBH I didn't even expect a response since she had ignored R talk the past couple years. She did respond.
She said these are things I should have said all along, but talk is cheap. 2 years ago she decided she couldn't change me so she changed herself. Got a job, got new friends, and the past month (since BD) she's been happy. Spending time with friends, dating (?), growing.
She said if I want to be with her I need to change without her. She discussed various faults and that I need to go to therapy to address them. She mentioned a few non-negotiable deal breakers. She also basically told me to GAL because we were too codependent and she can't go back to that. Said she can't ask me to make changes because I have to do it for myself. That only after we find ourselves could we think about a partnership again. The man she wants is confident, driven, and affectionate. The woman that man deserves is patient, supportive, and loving. And right now we don't deserve each other.
She mentioned twice, at the start and the end, that therapy will not fix the M, and she's not going to wait around to see if I can do these things or not.
I responded basically thank you for pointing out these things, I'm not happy about where my life is right now, I know I need to make changes and I am going to do so. It was longer than that but probably didn't have to be.
This was an interesting back and forth and has, oddly, given me closure. She knows how I feel. She's still committed to a D and doesn't want to wait around or try to work on things. At the same time she gave me a script that basically follows DBing to a T--work on self, GAL, become the best man I can be. I can't really argue with what she said, and this is what I already knew I needed to do. I was surprised she even acknowledged the possibility of a future R. I wonder, when I get there, if she will be the one I want.
After mulling it over for a good couple weeks, the other day I wrote her a last love letter, explaining how I felt through the past 12 years of knowing her. I know this is not in line with DBing, and one might call it a slip up but I don't think it was. It was something I needed to do for myself as I haven't always expressed my feelings to her all that well. I had no expectations of reconciliation so the intention was not pursuit, it came from another place, I don't know.
Truthfully this letter should have been sent later IMO but no biggie as long as you are truthful that you had zero expectations.
Got a job, got new friends, and the past month (since BD) she's been happy. Spending time with friends, dating (?), growing.
Yep thats how they all feel in the beginning of the break up/divorce
She said if I want to be with her I need to change without her.
That you your royal heinous lol.
She discussed various faults and that I need to go to therapy to address them.
Do you agree with these faults?
That only after we find ourselves could we think about a partnership again.
This sounds like typical WW bs.
The man she wants is confident, driven, and affectionate.
Hmmmm. Right out of "How to be a 3% man" Wonder why Ginger hates this book?
She mentioned twice, at the start and the end, that therapy will not fix the M, and she's not going to wait around to see if I can do these things or not.
Yep it takes two to want to fix it.
I responded basically thank you for pointing out these things, I'm not happy about where my life is right now, I know I need to make changes and I am going to do so. It was longer than that but probably didn't have to be.
Yep. It's all about the ACTIONS now.
I was surprised she even acknowledged the possibility of a future R.
Please try to forget she never said that. Most likely throwing you a bone to string you along for a bit.
I wonder, when I get there, if she will be the one I want.
Probably not. You will be better so why would you settle for a quitter?
mako, interesting update.
On the nesting, I am not a big fan of it. First, nesting just delays the inevitable. The kids wills end up in the new normal of going between their mom's and their dad's places eventually, so nesting is temporary. Further, most LBSs struggle with it (like you have). It just isn't sustainable. AND the worst part, is that it let's the WAS cake eat. They get to come play house in the marital home, and then go off for a week and be girls gone wild. It is no path to R if that is what your goal is.
As far as the love letter. IF you did it with no expectations, and just to get it off your chest so that you could move forward and say that she knew in no uncertain terms how you felt, fine. However, most LBS lie to themselves. 99.9999999999% of LBS do hope it will spark a R. That the WAS will go "wow, they really do love me and care about me and I am better off staying than going!" Secondly, more than likely your letter said nothing she didn't already know or had heard before. Therefore it was superfluous. This is why we typically advise against long, heartfelt letters and emails like this.
As far as:
She said if I want to be with her I need to change without her. She discussed various faults and that I need to go to therapy to address them. She mentioned a few non-negotiable deal breakers. She also basically told me to GAL because we were too codependent and she can't go back to that. Said she can't ask me to make changes because I have to do it for myself. That only after we find ourselves could we think about a partnership again. The man she wants is confident, driven, and affectionate. The woman that man deserves is patient, supportive, and loving. And right now we don't deserve each other.
This was an interesting back and forth and has, oddly, given me closure. She knows how I feel. She's still committed to a D and doesn't want to wait around or try to work on things. At the same time she gave me a script that basically follows DBing to a T--work on self, GAL, become the best man I can be. I can't really argue with what she said, and this is what I already knew I needed to do. I was surprised she even acknowledged the possibility of a future R. I wonder, when I get there, if she will be the one I want.
Wow, amazing! Your STBXW is a DB guru! Imagine that if the day you arrived to this forum, you committed to this this plan: GAL, work on yourself (180s and improvements), and detaching (IE stop being codependent), where do you think your sitch would be today? I know hindsight is 20/20, but she just said what this board tells you to do! Focus on yourself, etc. If only every newcomer could read this and learn from it.
Truthfully this letter should have been sent later IMO but no biggie as long as you are truthful that you had zero expectations.
This is probably true that it's too soon, but I think my head was in the right place. I think I said above somewhere...my BD was about a month ago, but also sorta had one a few years ago. I think I have been expecting this for some time and thus had somewhat come to terms with it already when it happened. A lot of times I think at the beginning you think you can just do that one last grand gesture to change things, but I was not at all under that delusion.
Probably not. You will be better so why would you settle for a quitter?
LH, I don't agree with all you say but I do like the attitude you bring to these boards.
This is what it will all come down to. I do think that she is correct in some of the faults she sees in me, and I do think she recognizes her own faults and has worked a bit to change some things. At the same time, she was willing to reject me and throw out 10 years of history and our family without really putting in any significant effort into working at it. She was willing to tell me the problems she had, which was great. But then at the same time basically gave up on me and put me through a test period to see if I'd fix things--while also treating me like dirt, which wasn't really conducive to the kinds of things she wanted to see. That's not very appealing and as I say in the OP I was probably not all that far from walking myself.
Last time I got a D, I would have jumped at the chance to R a few months in, but then by maybe a year later I knew 100% it was the right thing and I wanted nothing to do with her. So for now I'll just keep an open mind, but we'll have to see who we are if that time ever comes around.
mako, interesting update.
On the nesting, I am not a big fan of it. First, nesting just delays the inevitable. The kids wills end up in the new normal of going between their mom's and their dad's places eventually, so nesting is temporary. Further, most LBSs struggle with it (like you have). It just isn't sustainable. AND the worst part, is that it let's the WAS cake eat. They get to come play house in the marital home, and then go off for a week and be girls gone wild. It is no path to R if that is what your goal is.
I hear that. I didn't really like either option TBH. The mediator said we needed to separate to start the process and this seemed the least bad way. And yeah, temporary works both ways--it's temporary so you might as well just do it for a bit, or it's temporary so there's no need to do it. I agree it isn't a path to an R, which, while I am often all over the place, I would still be happy to try at this point. I don't see any path to an R with her right now though.
As far as the love letter. IF you did it with no expectations, and just to get it off your chest so that you could move forward and say that she knew in no uncertain terms how you felt, fine. However, most LBS lie to themselves. 99.9999999999% of LBS do hope it will spark a R. That the WAS will go "wow, they really do love me and care about me and I am better off staying than going!" Secondly, more than likely your letter said nothing she didn't already know or had heard before. Therefore it was superfluous. This is why we typically advise against long, heartfelt letters and emails like this.
This is definitely fair and I agree with you. I think I'm not lying to myself. I elaborated a bit more to LH above. I also don't think it was superfluous and that I did say some things I didn't say before. In any case, I don't think I had expectations, at least consciously
Wow, amazing! Your STBXW is a DB guru! Imagine that if the day you arrived to this forum, you committed to this this plan: GAL, work on yourself (180s and improvements), and detaching (IE stop being codependent), where do you think your sitch would be today? I know hindsight is 20/20, but she just said what this board tells you to do! Focus on yourself, etc. If only every newcomer could read this and learn from it.
Yeah, I was actually amused to read it. I think it's just the general way that you have to deal with this type of thing. The sooner the LBS gets it, the better.
Hey Mako,
Work on yourself and become the best version of yourself and I can almost guarantee you won't want her back.
IF you do the work and apply what you have learned here, you will attract women far better for you than your WW ever was. It's just the natural result of DBing for YOU, and not trying to manipulate your W back into a relationship with you.
It's been 16 months since BD for me, I can honestly say I have never had more fun than I am right now. My BD was truly a blessing for me, I just couldn't see it at the time.
Hang in there, and let her go.
mako, interesting update.
On the nesting, I am not a big fan of it. First, nesting just delays the inevitable. The kids wills end up in the new normal of going between their mom's and their dad's places eventually, so nesting is temporary. Further, most LBSs struggle with it (like you have). It just isn't sustainable. AND the worst part, is that it let's the WAS cake eat. They get to come play house in the marital home, and then go off for a week and be girls gone wild. It is no path to R if that is what your goal is.
I hear that. I didn't really like either option TBH. The mediator said we needed to separate to start the process and this seemed the least bad way. And yeah, temporary works both ways--it's temporary so you might as well just do it for a bit, or it's temporary so there's no need to do it. I agree it isn't a path to an R, which, while I am often all over the place, I would still be happy to try at this point. I don't see any path to an R with her right now though.
As far as the love letter. IF you did it with no expectations, and just to get it off your chest so that you could move forward and say that she knew in no uncertain terms how you felt, fine. However, most LBS lie to themselves. 99.9999999999% of LBS do hope it will spark a R. That the WAS will go "wow, they really do love me and care about me and I am better off staying than going!" Secondly, more than likely your letter said nothing she didn't already know or had heard before. Therefore it was superfluous. This is why we typically advise against long, heartfelt letters and emails like this.
This is definitely fair and I agree with you. I think I'm not lying to myself. I elaborated a bit more to LH above. I also don't think it was superfluous and that I did say some things I didn't say before. In any case, I don't think I had expectations, at least consciously
Wow, amazing! Your STBXW is a DB guru! Imagine that if the day you arrived to this forum, you committed to this this plan: GAL, work on yourself (180s and improvements), and detaching (IE stop being codependent), where do you think your sitch would be today? I know hindsight is 20/20, but she just said what this board tells you to do! Focus on yourself, etc. If only every newcomer could read this and learn from it.
Yeah, I was actually amused to read it. I think it's just the general way that you have to deal with this type of thing. The sooner the LBS gets it, the better.
mako, if you did not have expectations and said things she hadn't heard before with the letter, than no harm no foul! If it was merely to get things off your chest so you could move on without regrets, then I actually support it. But it has to be with all of that or it is a setback (this is for any newcomers reading this).
Thanks Steve. I appreciate the distinction and also that it is useful to point out for any newbies reading. Part of the benefit here is to read and learn from what others are doing and going through.
Yeah, since it is such a common mistake for LBSs to make. A newcomer to the board just said they sent a long love letter before finding DB. It is one of those instinctual, intuitive things to do!
mako, interesting update.
On the nesting, I am not a big fan of it. First, nesting just delays the inevitable. The kids wills end up in the new normal of going between their mom's and their dad's places eventually, so nesting is temporary. Further, most LBSs struggle with it (like you have). It just isn't sustainable. AND the worst part, is that it let's the WAS cake eat. They get to come play house in the marital home, and then go off for a week and be girls gone wild. It is no path to R if that is what your goal is.
Well, I am going back to the house. I got a second opinion and determined my first mediator was wrong about the necessity of separating, and I told W I wasn't going to do it anymore. So that's that. Now I have a bit longer before I have to split time with the kids.
Well, I am going back to the house. I got a second opinion and determined my first mediator was wrong about the necessity of separating, and I told W I wasn't going to do it anymore. So that's that. Now I have a bit longer before I have to split time with the kids.
Good. That's a power move. Make sure to do it out of strength. Let her move out if she wants to.
Good job, mako! Never seen anything good come out of "nesting" for the LBS who wants to reconcile in real life or these forums. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's a great setup for the WAS/WWS. It's also worth more consideration for kids with special needs where medical equipment is impractical to duplicate.
If she becomes upset by your move, don’t “fight” or “argue”. Listen. Validate. Be strong.
Thank you all. I have been a passive participant in my life for too long. This is one of my issues I'd like to improve. It felt great to just decide I wanted something and go ahead with it.
She was not upset with this, and seemed agreeable pretty much right away. But at first she said that we are moving towards being two households and we should keep that in mind as we help the children transition, which seemed cryptically against it. I *wanted* to say that D is also not great for the kids so that concern feels hollow if you aren't willing to work on the M. What I *actually* said was I agree those are important considerations but I think they will be fine with this, and whether their transition starts now or a few months from now will be meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
So, good day.
Thank you all. I have been a passive participant in my life for too long. This is one of my issues I'd like to improve. It felt great to just decide I wanted something and go ahead with it.
Great goal!
She was not upset with this, and seemed agreeable pretty much right away. But at first she said that we are moving towards being two households and we should keep that in mind as we help the children transition, which seemed cryptically against it.
Will she stay in the house full-time, or will she continue to alternate weeks?
I *wanted* to say that D is also not great for the kids so that concern feels hollow if you aren't willing to work on the M. What I *actually* said was I agree those are important considerations but I think they will be fine with this, and whether their transition starts now or a few months from now will be meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Very true. If the best interest of the kids were her real priority she wouldn't be divorcing and breaking the family apart - she would commit herself to working out the issues in the marriage - in reality she's being selfish. However, you handled it as this board would advise. In my own sitch, I said something to the effect of "you're worried about the kids getting anxiety because I don't want them to have chocolate for breakfast (kids' nutrition was an issue in our parenting), yet you're going to divorce me and split our family apart?!?". While it didn't make any sense logically, it also didn't help one bit or change a thing for me to make the argument.
Will she stay in the house full-time, or will she continue to alternate weeks?
She plans to stay. I told her if she was uncomfortable she was free to leave. The switchover has been Sunday so that's pretty much a lifetime away the way these things can shift. I moved the laundry over to the dryer tonight and found new lacy and silky panties. She's been wearing the least sexy things possible for about 4 years, so maybe she won't stick around.
Very true. If the best interest of the kids were her real priority she wouldn't be divorcing and breaking the family apart - she would commit herself to working out the issues in the marriage - in reality she's being selfish. However, you handled it as this board would advise.
Yeah, I knew snark would have felt good for like a minute but wouldn't have been productive in any way.
Ahh the new lacy panties. Page 7 of the WW handbook. Too bad there wasn’t a truth serum to administer where the WW could say “I’m leaving you because I want to sleep with other dudes”.
Agree with LH.
I experienced the same exact thing.
One of my least proud moments in my sitch was examining her underwear.
I knew I was lost and in need of help when I was at that level of "investigating".
Yeah I am not interested in snooping, whether the cell phone or the closet. I know a few are in favor though the board is generally against. In my first M I accidentally found out about an OM and then just got kind of obsessed with snooping, it wasn't good for me.
Today's morning update, I made a IC appointment. I saw her for a few months, ending about a year ago when the pandemic hit. It seemed helpful both for me and the M, I kind of wish I hadn't stopped. Will be good for working on myself.
I am not detached. Thought I was, but I’m not.
W arranged for the kids to be at her parents’ for the weekend. I half expected her to just leave for the weekend but she didn’t. Yesterday I finished work early and did some painting around the house. Went and worked out. Then around 5 I was just going to go shopping. She asked me if I wanted to go to dinner. I was kinda unsure about it but I agreed.
We went, and had a good time. Both got some shopping done, had a nice dinner, nice talking. It was like normal. Except half way through dinner I just keep thinking, it’s not normal, this isn’t how it was, because we’re going to go home and go to bed in different rooms and still be in the sitch. I felt down the rest of the night.
This morning I got up and got some coffee, did some journaling, and decided I need to get out of there. Thought I’ll go on a hike at a state park nearby. So that’s where I am, I’ll start after I post. I saw W as I left, said “Good morning, going out, see you later.” And still feel down. Blah. Maybe I can walk it out.
So yeah, not detached yet. Need to work on that. Like we were talking about above: do I want to be her friend, or her husband? Not just her friend. So I think I should avoid situations like last night.
M,
Not surprising you are not detached it takes a really long time and just comes naturally. You can speed up the process by avoiding those situations. If I had a nickel for every LBS who did the dinner thing and thought things were like normal I would have retired by now. The good news she doesn’t feel pressure from you. The bad news is you are slotted yourself into the friend zone. Your response should have been “can’t have plans gotta run”.
Prepare for the fact that there is another man in the picture that she panty upgraded for and right now you are a slot filler when she has free time. You need to decide if you are ok with that role.
Yeah, I don't want to be slot filler. I need to avoid the friend zone stuff and just do my own thing. While it felt sort of good to be sort of normal, it just was ultimately unsatisfying. Knowing that will help me avoid it.
I am not sure if she actively has an OM, she hasn't left the house since I've been back earlier this week other than to drop off the kids for daycare and stuff. In her spare time she has mostly just been watching TV by herself. I really did expect, when she said on Wednesday that the kids would be gone for the weekend, that she would be gone starting yesterday afternoon. I'm sure she would be open to an OM, but if she doesn't go out tonight that would be curious. This may be naive wishful thinking, and of course any number of things could be happening on her phone.
Back to me, I enjoyed being outside in good weather this morning. There are a bunch of state parks and things around here, I will probably do this more often.
Hi Mako,
It doesn’t sound like a terrible setback, just a learning experience.
Glad you had a wonderful time in the state park! It’s hard to go wrong with physical activity outdoors. At least for me, it improves both my physical health and my mental state.
W did not go out on Saturday night. However, Saturday afternoon she asked if I wanted to watch some TV with her. So I did for a bit. Bad decision. Out of the corner of my eye I see she keeps glancing at her phone and then I can see her typing on what appears to be Bumble. There it is.
I tell her "I'm going to go, you're going to do what you want but I'm not going to sit here in the same room with you while you chat with other guys, I have too much self respect for that." She apologized and said that was fair, she is not sleeping with anyone, she isn't emotionally or physically available to anyone right now, she just likes to talk and there are a lot of nice people who have gone through the same thing. Ok. Definitely a dating app is where you go to talk about your problems, not an IC or something. And I'm sure these guys joined a dating app just looking to have a nice little supportive talk.
If it had ended there it would have been fine, but we ended up in a R talk. It was actually a decent talk for a while but ended up with too much rehashing of stuff. I know exactly how to DB but when I'm in the moment I just don't follow through. I was unhappy and just left and took a long walk. This would have been a good time to GAL but I was really not in the mood, being outside a while cleared my head though.
Lesson learned (AGAIN). Do not hang out as if you're friends. Do not hang out as if you're friends. Nothing good will come of it. This is not going to happen anymore. If I'm home I will hang out with the kids or with myself. I don't need her to help me spend my time.
Yesterday we did not hang out at all. She texted me while I was outside playing with the kids that she is going out on Tuesday and Friday (why she couldn't just tell me, who knows). So I responded that I am going to go out Wednesday and Saturday. So good, I have plans, though I'm not sure what they are yet.
Today I went to IC. It was good to get some things off my chest. We talked a little about detaching and letting go and we agreed that was something I needed to do. I'd like to think I am finally ready. TBH it's a lot harder when you're under the same roof, but I'll get there.
Sorry man, I know this stuff is difficult and it is easy to know what to do, but harder to DO what you know to do. Been there and done that!
I think as you elude to, that if you had stated your case "I will not sit here while you message other guys" and walked out that would have been fine. Make your case, end the discussion.
Where we as DBers always make our mistake is in saying too much.
Talking RARELY solves anything. This is what I am trying to DBX80 to see. ACTION not words. So many DBers default to the LBS mistake of trying to talk their way out of what they acted their way into. It doesn't work.
Out of the corner of my eye I see she keeps glancing at her phone and then I can see her typing on what appears to be Bumble. There it is.
And there it is.
I tell her "I'm going to go, you're going to do what you want but I'm not going to sit here in the same room with you while you chat with other guys, I have too much self respect for that.
No words necessary. Next time just walk away.
She apologized and said that was fair, she is not sleeping with anyone, she isn't emotionally or physically available to anyone right now, she just likes to talk and there are a lot of nice people who have gone through the same thing.
Oh yeah. So the new panties aren't for you, I wonder who they can be for? Hmmmm.....
And I'm sure these guys joined a dating app just looking to have a nice little supportive talk.
spit my coffee
If it had ended there it would have been fine, but we ended up in a R talk. It was actually a decent talk for a while but ended up with too much rehashing of stuff. I know exactly how to DB but when I'm in the moment I just don't follow through.
This stuff is tough. That is why there are so few recons right away.
Lesson learned (AGAIN). Do not hang out as if you're friends. Do not hang out as if you're friends. Nothing good will come of it. This is not going to happen anymore. If I'm home I will hang out with the kids or with myself. I don't need her to help me spend my time.
Think of the touching the hot stove analogy.
Yesterday we did not hang out at all. She texted me while I was outside playing with the kids that she is going out on Tuesday and Friday (why she couldn't just tell me, who knows). So I responded that I am going to go out Wednesday and Saturday. So good, I have plans, though I'm not sure what they are yet.
Great!
Today I went to IC. It was good to get some things off my chest. We talked a little about detaching and letting go and we agreed that was something I needed to do. I'd like to think I am finally ready. TBH it's a lot harder when you're under the same roof, but I'll get there.
IHS while a spouse is fooling around is soul sucking.
The good news is that you know you will survive. It will take some time.
Sorry man, I know this stuff is difficult and it is easy to know what to do, but harder to DO what you know to do. Been there and done that!
I think as you elude to, that if you had stated your case "I will not sit here while you message other guys" and walked out that would have been fine. Make your case, end the discussion.
Where we as DBers always make our mistake is in saying too much.
Talking RARELY solves anything. This is what I am trying to DBX80 to see. ACTION not words. So many DBers default to the LBS mistake of trying to talk their way out of what they acted their way into. It doesn't work.
Very true. Talk is cheap. W told me that a little while back and she's right. The other spouse doesn't want to hear anything once it gets to this point, so nothing good is going to come out of it anyway.
This stuff is tough. That is why there are so few recons right away.
...
Think of the touching the hot stove analogy.
Yep. Takes a lot of work and focus. I think touching the stove twice in two days has me covered for a while. I had felt like I was going along pretty decently before this weekend. It's easy to do well for 90some % of the time and then backslide, just gotta get back to it.
The good news is that you know you will survive. It will take some time.
This is the benefit of being here once before. I don't know when, but I know at the end of the day it'll be alright.
Hi Mako,
I bet that was hard. It sometimes takes all our energy to not launch into some version of, "Don't you get it--I love you, that's precious, what are you thinking tossing that out?!" Ironically, the more in their pocket you are, the safer it is for them to explore the single life and OM while still having you as a safety net. Being willing to walk away can simultaneously make you more attractive and reduce their safety net. As you read other threads, you'll see we all goof, but we don't all learn from our goofs. Good job. Chin up!
Sorry Mako.
These things are so predictable.
Time to focus solely on you and your kids. If she wants out, let her go.
Thanks guys.
On the plus side, I think this is actually helping me to let go a bit. As I watch her sit outside with my daughter, merrily typing away, the feelings start to subside a little. And every time she almost runs to the garage when her phone sends a notification the affection seems to deaden ever so slightly. It only takes time I guess.
mako,
Saturday afternoon she asked if I wanted to watch some TV with her. So I did for a bit. Bad decision. Out of the corner of my eye I see she keeps glancing at her phone and then I can see her typing on what appears to be Bumble. There it is.
Brings back ugly memories. My W & I were watching a show we always watched together yet she sat on the other couch and texted the entire time. She told me it was with her best friend, but I knew for certain it was OM1. She would also lay down with our son to put him to bed then stay there till midnight or 1am texting OM1 while he was in his bathroom or hiding in his truck in the garage. One time I went out late at night for medicine for our son (in another town because the local drug stores were closed) and I came back and instead of being thankful she was texting the guy at how annoying I was...going out for medicine for our child. It's amazing what they'll do behind your back or even right in front of your face. It also demonstrates how angry (reasonable or not) they are at us to disrespect us so much. Because of my snooping (stopped long ago) I have better insight into how much she distained me (probably redirecting her anger or guilt at me so I'm to blame for her actions) and how disrespectful and far gone she was/is. Don't underestimate that in your sitch. It could seem cordial at the surface but be extremely nasty not far underneath (even if you don't deserve it and it doesn't seem possible).
I tell her "I'm going to go, you're going to do what you want but I'm not going to sit here in the same room with you while you chat with other guys, I have too much self respect for that."
Good for you! That's stronger than I was at the time. Don't put up with her immoral, disrespectful behavior.
She apologized and said that was fair, she is not sleeping with anyone, she isn't emotionally or physically available to anyone right now, she just likes to talk and there are a lot of nice people who have gone through the same thing. Ok. Definitely a dating app is where you go to talk about your problems, not an IC or something. And I'm sure these guys joined a dating app just looking to have a nice little supportive talk.
She apologized...but not enough to uninstall Bumble I bet. Words are easy, but she's still doing the same action (albeit maybe slightly more discrete going forward).
If it had ended there it would have been fine, but we ended up in a R talk. It was actually a decent talk for a while but ended up with too much rehashing of stuff. I know exactly how to DB but when I'm in the moment I just don't follow through. I was unhappy and just left and took a long walk. This would have been a good time to GAL but I was really not in the mood, being outside a while cleared my head though.
Lesson learned (AGAIN). Do not hang out as if you're friends. Do not hang out as if you're friends. Nothing good will come of it. This is not going to happen anymore. If I'm home I will hang out with the kids or with myself. I don't need her to help me spend my time.
...
We talked a little about detaching and letting go and we agreed that was something I needed to do. I'd like to think I am finally ready. TBH it's a lot harder when you're under the same roof, but I'll get there.
As LM19 said, it's brutal to be IHS and have your wife shopping around behind your back (or worse in front of you). You'll get relief when she moves out.
She apologized and said that was fair, she is not sleeping with anyone, she isn't emotionally or physically available to anyone right now, she just likes to talk and there are a lot of nice people who have gone through the same thing.
Oh yeah. So the new panties aren't for you, I wonder who they can be for? Hmmmm.....
Prep yourself. There's a very good chance she has done physical with someone else, and is lying through her teeth about it - mine did, as did so many others in sitches on this board. The bumble/texting could be "just" emotional and non-physical, but as LH19 points out...why the new panties? They're not for nobody.
These things are so predictable.
Time to focus solely on you and your kids. If she wants out, let her go.
Yep.
mako,
...
Prep yourself. There's a very good chance she has done physical with someone else, and is lying through her teeth about it - mine did, as did so many others in sitches on this board. The bumble/texting could be "just" emotional and non-physical, but as LH19 points out...why the new panties? They're not for nobody.
Yep, I know it. At a minimum she is quite clearly actively shopping for an EA, and I just have to assume a PA is not far behind and would be welcome if it hasn't happened already. Of course to her the M is over so it doesn't matter.
On that note, she said the other day she was going out tonight, and she just left. I am trying to detach and not care. I know that's the thing to do, and I would love to not care. But I'm not there.
I remember one Friday night early in my sitch, my WW locked herself in the guest bathroom. I knew she was communicating with other man. I remember the shame at actually being tempted to look under the door to spy on her. I didn't, but later found the nude pictures with the timestamp of late Friday night (~midnight) and early Saturday morning.
IHS is not for the faint of heart, that is for sure. I think I've been accused of trying to make it sound easy, that has never been my intent. Only that physical separation is just as difficult. I don't think one is easier than the other, it is just a different set of difficulties that come with each one.
Steve85 I mean SteveLW
Why in your mind is physical separation just as hard?
To me, physical separation was far easier as far as my W was concerned. Maybe a little bit of out of sight out of mind, I don’t know. I certainly thought about her and my sitch but I think the distance was helpful. The rest of it was harder, but that was more due to not being at home.
With IHS the sitch and her are just in my face all day. Working from home doesn’t help but that can’t be changed.
Separation where I’m home and she’s gone seems better, but if she doesn’t leave I have no legal basis to kick her out. So either I leave or live with IHS.
Brings back ugly memories. My W & I were watching a show we always watched together yet she sat on the other couch and texted the entire time. She told me it was with her best friend, but I knew for certain it was OM1. She would also lay down with our son to put him to bed then stay there till midnight or 1am texting OM1 while he was in his bathroom or hiding in his truck in the garage. One time I went out late at night for medicine for our son (in another town because the local drug stores were closed) and I came back and instead of being thankful she was texting the guy at how annoying I was...going out for medicine for our child. It's amazing what they'll do behind your back or even right in front of your face. It also demonstrates how angry (reasonable or not) they are at us to disrespect us so much. Because of my snooping (stopped long ago) I have better insight into how much she distained me (probably redirecting her anger or guilt at me so I'm to blame for her actions) and how disrespectful and far gone she was/is. Don't underestimate that in your sitch. It could seem cordial at the surface but be extremely nasty not far underneath (even if you don't deserve it and it doesn't seem possible).
Reading what BL has said here, its like we've lived the same events. The positive to take from this, knowing that we seem to have all been through the same thing, means IT IS NOT US!
Steve85 I mean SteveLW
Why in your mind is physical separation just as hard?
Physical separation is a breeze compared to the 2 months of IHS hell that I experienced. It drove me to a pretty dark place. Having your W lie about where she is staying at night, coming home to an empty house knowing that she is at OM's, seeing your W constantly on her phone. Awful stuff.
Physical separation is a breeze compared to the 2 months of IHS hell that I experienced. It drove me to a pretty dark place. Having your W lie about where she is staying at night, coming home to an empty house knowing that she is at OM's, seeing your W constantly on her phone. Awful stuff.
I agree with you as I indicated above. But everyone is probably different. I'm not sure that I see the pros of IHS. Maybe as I begin to make changes W is more likely to see them, maybe if she was having second thoughts it'd be easier to R with both in the same location. But I really don't think she's going to stop prior to selling the house and D, so I don't think that is really relevant to my sitch.
I had kind of steeled myself to the idea that W might not come home last night but she ended up back at 8. I was standing next to the door talking to my S when she came in, I just said hello finished with S and went to bed. Throughout the day I actually got progressively sicker and feel like I have the flu. I got the flu shot this year, would be really angry if I get COVID about a month out from the vaccine being available. Unfortunately I was planning to go out tonight but I think that isn't going to happen.
I know it seems like I'm too focused on her, and I am. You all know how it is. Working on it.
We have had some physically separated posters here that struggled mightily. One in particular I remember from a couple of years ago. So I don't want anyone to think that physical separation is a cake-walk compared to IHS. As I stated above, they both have their own set of unique difficulties, especially when kids are involved and you have to start doing the dropoffs and picksups during physical separation.
However, the posters that struggle the most regardless of IHS or PS usually have one thing in common: they do GAL terribly. The poster I mentioned above had dozens of reasons he couldn't do GAL. So he would sit and stew in his situation. That is not good for anyone in any situation. Which is why one of the first pieces of advice is to go out and GAL and stay busy!!
As other posters like to so often point out to me, I never did PS so I don't really know what it is like. But I can tell you from reading the other sitches here is that you will struggle just as bad with PS if you ignore good DB principles!
We have had some physically separated posters here that struggled mightily. One in particular I remember from a couple of years ago. So I don't want anyone to think that physical separation is a cake-walk compared to IHS. As I stated above, they both have their own set of unique difficulties, especially when kids are involved and you have to start doing the dropoffs and picksups during physical separation.
However, the posters that struggle the most regardless of IHS or PS usually have one thing in common: they do GAL terribly. The poster I mentioned above had dozens of reasons he couldn't do GAL. So he would sit and stew in his situation. That is not good for anyone in any situation. Which is why one of the first pieces of advice is to go out and GAL and stay busy!!
As other posters like to so often point out to me, I never did PS so I don't really know what it is like. But I can tell you from reading the other sitches here is that you will struggle just as bad with PS if you ignore good DB principles!
I imagine you're probably right. GAL and staying busy are the prime way through. If you sit and stew you're going to be worse off no matter what your physical location. Whichever way helps the particular LBS adhere to DBing, which includes GAL and working on self and all that, is probably best for that particular person.
But I can tell you from reading the other sitches here is that you will struggle just as bad with PS if you ignore good DB principles!
Completely disagree. First of all time and space are the only things that help with detachment. Physical separation is the only way to get your spouse to wondering what you are up to which is what you want if you want to turn this around immediately. Nothing sounds worse then a LBS watching there WW get al gussied up to go out and sleep with OM. Check out Nick Wingers thread.
The only advantage to IHS is more time with the kids but it is easier to start the process now and ease it into the divorce.
But I can tell you from reading the other sitches here is that you will struggle just as bad with PS if you ignore good DB principles!
Completely disagree.
Shocking.
But I can tell you from reading the other sitches here is that you will struggle just as bad with PS if you ignore good DB principles!
Completely disagree.
Shocking.
Lol. Come on man I agree with most of your jibber jabber.
Completely disagree. First of all time and space are the only things that help with detachment.
For me, space definitely improved detachment. I feel much less detached since I came back, so that is a negative.
Physical separation is the only way to get your spouse to wondering what you are up to which is what you want if you want to turn this around immediately.
This part I don't agree with, I actually think IHS is better for this in my sitch. Part of the problem with our M was that I lost a lot of my individuality and withdrew socially, letting my life be too defined by the MR. Lately, and not just due to lockdowns, I spent all of my time with her and the kids without living my own life (we need not discuss how she would also complain when I
would do social things on my own). If we were physically separate I am sure she would assume I am just sitting at home all the time as that is more in line with how I'd been the past few years. With IHS she actually sees me leave to do things.
Nothing sounds worse then a LBS watching there WW get al gussied up to go out and sleep with OM.
True. Nothing like walking by her room and the whole place reeking of perfume.
The only advantage to IHS is more time with the kids but it is easier to start the process now and ease it into the divorce.
Time with kids is a big part of why I want to be here. Also a lot was I just was not productive working at home away from home. With the rest of my life drastically changing I need to keep some stability in my work and I'm much better off here. The good thing, for me at least, is I can see an endgame. We are fixing up the house to put it on the market so we are looking at a few months. If I was facing an indefinite limbo like some on the board I think I would be going a bit more crazy about it.
Hi Mako,
Just read your thread. Glad you stopped the nesting. I had IHS, then nesting, then separate houses. I will leave the quibbling to LH and LW.
One of the key things in your growth is letting go of the need to control other people. Makes the process much easier. Are you familiar with the four agreements? if not, google it.
I struggle with different love languages. My lady is an "acts of service" and "words of affirmation" person. I constantly have to remind myself that is what she needs. I don't need either of those to feel loved. She does.
In your case, I believe nailing down your validation skills would be good. Validate how she feels.
Focus on what you can control. Your behavior, the way you interact with others, and the words you say. Your most important relationship is with your children. Be the calm rock for them during this most difficult time.
Set your W free. The sooner the better. Forgive her daily (or more frequently if needed). She will not have a change of heart, until she misses what she had with you. Then you can reevaluate your relationship with her.
Until then DB and DB some more.
I wish you well.
Thanks for coming by R2C.
I am not familiar with the four agreements but I'm going to look into it. I've also seen a lot of talk of NGS on this board and from what I've gathered I think it might be applicable so I'm going to check that book out too. All part of the self improvement.
Set your W free. The sooner the better. Forgive her daily (or more frequently if needed). She will not have a change of heart, until she misses what she had with you. Then you can reevaluate your relationship with her.
This really struck me. I have been struggling with detachment, and I think I have been hung up on anger and bitterness. I suppose those things are natural when grieving, but it isn't the way I want to stay. Anger isn't going to let me move forward, it isn't going to help my kids, and it isn't going to help improve my relationship with my W (even if that relationship is coparents and nothing more). I think I've finally realize that anger simply keeps me attached to her. If I can forgive her then I can let her go. So yes, I think that forgiveness is what I will be working on.
In other news, yesterday we had a 2.5 hour session of property negotiation. It went about as well as I could have expected, we have agreed to the terms of the vast majority of things which is nice, though there are some details left. I hope we can finish amicably and avoid the many horror stories I've read about wasting thousands and thousands of dollars on lawyers.
Hi Mako,
Sounds good. Don't be too afraid of lawyers. Lawyers can be great for ensuring you get what you're entitled to if you listen to them and let them work. My experience is it's the side arguing for more than the law naturally gives them who spends the lion's share on lawyers.
Anger isn't going to let me move forward, it isn't going to help my kids, and it isn't going to help improve my relationship with my W (even if that relationship is coparents and nothing more). I think I've finally realize that anger simply keeps me attached to her.
One of the key things I learned with anger was to recognize it, really feel it, quantify it (ie frustrated vs raging) and then channel that raw energy into something productive. Some guys here channel that energy into their work outs. Most of the time I would channel my frustration with the children into constructive "family meetings". I would start "Why am I frustrated?"
As far as anger and forgiveness, start by reading this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094lots of other good topics to learn more about.
Regards,
R2C
This weekend went ok. Saturday was S9's birthday, I took him out to lunch to get his favorite food and got him some books he had wanted. Saturday morning I went on a hike and Saturday night I went out as W wanted to see a movie with him. I mostly just did some errands. Sunday I took the kids to my dad's for Easter. W went out Friday and Sunday but I am finding myself less and less concerned by that.
One problem I am having is with GALing. W and I are pretty much giving each other 3 nights a week where we can be alone and the other stays with the kids, so there is sufficient opportunity. I am getting out of the house just fine, but I am having difficulty finding stuff to do. I've said before, we moved here just a few years ago and I spent almost all my time with the family and didn't really work on building friendships around here. All of my really good friends are much longer term and live far away. It's also somewhat rural so there's not a ton going on. Meetup groups are sparse around here and I quit drinking a little while back so I'm not going to go to bars. So for the most part I'm just going out and doing things solo: hikes, restaurants I've wanted to go to, errands, or even just driving around and exploring.
I will note that I'm ok with this. I'm an introvert that doesn't require a lot of social interaction. And I'm not sitting at home stewing and thinking about the M, I am out and about doing stuff, just not being social. I just wonder if that's a bad thing, if I need to force myself to be more social at this point, I'm going to need more of a network once D happens. Whenever the vaccine gets more widespread that may help. For example, there's a chess club nearby I want to join, but they aren't meeting right now. A lot of stuff is like that, I've had interest in things but they are kind of on pause for now. Hopefully we'll be back to normal soon.
One thing on the plus side, I am doing better I think with anger and forgiveness that I talked about last week. Whenever anger comes up I try to couple it with forgiveness and it somewhat subsides, I have also tried to channel it a bit into my workouts, as R2C mentioned lots of folks do. Like I said I have begun to feel much less emotion on the nights W goes out, where at the beginning I certainly felt a lot. I think that is a good sign and perhaps detachment is starting to come along, though I'm sure it will ebb and flow.
Hi Mako,
Strong progress, and you're thinking about the right things, and in the right direction.
I am getting out of the house just fine, but I am having difficulty finding stuff to do. I've said before, we moved here just a few years ago and I spent almost all my time with the family and didn't really work on building friendships around here. Meetup groups are sparse around here.. So for the most part I'm just going out and doing things solo: hikes, restaurants I've wanted to go to, errands, or even just driving around and exploring. I just wonder if that's a bad thing, if I need to force myself to be more social at this point, I'm going to need more of a network once D happens. For example, there's a chess club nearby I want to join, but they aren't meeting right now.
We have much in common. I'm further along with my ex--R'd multiple times, then 100% done and in the "Life After D" forum--but I'm facing similar challenges rebuilding my network of friends.
I agree forcing yourself outside your comfort zone would be wise. There will be successes. The failures will teach you better what you find enjoyable, tolerable, and intolerable.
re: Hiking, I do 75% solo. In my circle, 3 have proposed hiking with me this week, I suspect 4-6 would accept invites. To not feel like I'm "wasting time", a hike has to first meet my goals, and then adding friends is great. Most people fit either on my easy days or hard days. I can add a heavy pack to balance it out. Questions to you--1) When you hike solo, don't you run across others hiking solo? 2) Do you tell co-workers and acquaintances about your hikes? 3) Have you looked for local hiking groups--it's not all about Meetup? 4) Have you searched for non-hiking groups that hike such as bird-watchers, botanists, volunteer groups, etc?
re: Chess, I'd be shocked if the chess group "gave up playing chess". I suspect they are playing regular swiss tournaments on one of the many online chess sites. Maybe inquire?
Yesterday was Easter. Holidays are an opportunity to connect.
Making friends requires putting yourself out there--and there isn't an app for it like dating! You take the same lumps--he/she likes me, he/she rejected me, etc. But if you can date, you can make friends. It's a numbers game. Some percentage of people want a new hiking or chess friend. You just need to find them!
Hey Mako,
Get in the gym. It's something you can do solo, or you can meet other guys there as well. Plus you have the added benefit of looking and feeling great. Time to fill out those tshirts buddy, just in time for summer.
Thorn
I agree with Cwarrior that forcing yourself out of your comfort zone is wise during this.
I'm an introvert that doesn't require a lot of social interaction....I just wonder if that's a bad thing, if I need to force myself to be more social at this point, I'm going to need more of a network ....there's a chess club nearby..
Definitely a good 180 is to be extroverted. After you are comfortable as an extrovert, you can shift your behavior as you see fit. Be the one setting up events. Small talk with everyone. Startbucks became my social place.
Hopefully C19 is on the way out. Set up the chess board at a coffee shop. Someone will play. Kids might be eager to learn.
I am going to bring my chess board out with my recently (About a year ago) divorced friend. I will see if we can get him interacting with some ladies.
I played on lichess.com for awhile. Made some online friends.
Thanks for the advice everybody. You all are of course right that forcing myself out of my comfort zone is a good idea. That is the best way for us to grow after all. And as R2C says being comfortable in either zone is ideal. So maybe I just need some practice.
I am thinking about joining a gym as Thornton mentions. I have been working out for a little while but primarily at home. Bodyweight exercises go a long way and I've made a lot of progress, but I've been stalling, especially with legs. Maybe another good excuse to get out.
I'm also going to figure out if the chess clubs are playing online. I do play online a bit already but it's nice to do with people. Maybe I will bring a board to Starbucks or something.
Just checking in as it’s been a few days.
Yesterday W and I had our last mediation session for splitting up assets. The only big undecided issue was alimony and she was always a bit noncommittal and coy whenever we’d discuss these things, so I was afraid that was going to be a stalemate. But we had a quick back and forth in the 15 minutes before the session and agreed on one year of what’s IMO not very much, which I am more than satisfied with. So the financial part is essentially done, which is nice—this clears up a bunch of unknowns and now I can start better planning for the future. I know sometimes these things drag out, and I think the overall outcome was pretty fair.
Today I went and volunteered at the local food bank. This is not something I have done in my adult life, but I figured I need to start having a positive impact on the world. This also helped further my goal mentioned above of just putting myself out there around people I don’t know. It went fine, I got along with and talked to the people there, and I’ll go do it again some time.
Not much planned for the weekend. We need to start working on the house more. I’m with the kids tonight and going out tomorrow night, plans unknown at this time.
I’m going out tomorrow night, plans unknown at this time.
Sometimes those are great nights.
I’m with the kids tonight
But these are the best!
Enjoy both nights. Make them awesome!
Just checking in as it’s been a few days.
Yesterday W and I had our last mediation session for splitting up assets. The only big undecided issue was alimony and she was always a bit noncommittal and coy whenever we’d discuss these things, so I was afraid that was going to be a stalemate. But we had a quick back and forth in the 15 minutes before the session and agreed on one year of what’s IMO not very much, which I am more than satisfied with. So the financial part is essentially done, which is nice—this clears up a bunch of unknowns and now I can start better planning for the future. I know sometimes these things drag out, and I think the overall outcome was pretty fair.
Today I went and volunteered at the local food bank. This is not something I have done in my adult life, but I figured I need to start having a positive impact on the world. This also helped further my goal mentioned above of just putting myself out there around people I don’t know. It went fine, I got along with and talked to the people there, and I’ll go do it again some time.
Not much planned for the weekend. We need to start working on the house more. I’m with the kids tonight and going out tomorrow night, plans unknown at this time.
Great update, mako! Well done.
Good stuff on the volunteering Mako, much respect.
Mako you win the quote of the day:
“People who like, value and appreciate you make it easy to spend time with them. People who take you for granted, don’t appreciate you and who have low interest make it difficult and often impossible to get together. Only make a continued effort to see people who make it easy, effortless and fun to be together. Spend time with people who are good to you, good for you and good for your soul. Give the poseurs, users, losers, takers and fakers the gift of missing you, permanently.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Thanks for the quote. It is useful as I need to remind myself that I need to do my best to make myself high value, and need to be with someone who treats me as such.
The weekend went fine, but now W thinks she may have covid. She has some flu like symptoms but the kicker is she lost her sense of smell and taste. She got tested today so we'll see in 3 days. Me and the kids are ok and she is quarantining from us. A nice twist to the IHS.
Know several families that had family members get covid. By in home quarantining and wearing masks they were able to contain it to 1 or 2 family members, with the rest not getting it (testing confirmed). So it can be done.
Well, W was worse today, stayed in bed all day yet had a good bit of shortness of breath, and her test came back positive. About 4 hours ago she said she would think about going to the hospital if she got worse but I haven't heard from her since she went to bed about 3 hours ago. So far me and the kids are still fine, we went and got tested tonight, so keeping our fingers crossed.
The most curious thing, and most applicable to this board, is how I feel. The fact is I don't feel that much. If this happened 6 or 9 or even 3 months ago I would have been terribly concerned for her, worried about how she's feeling and hopeful that she's improving...right now I just feel like how I imagine I'd feel if my coworker got it. Concerned for a fellow human I know who's sick, concerned that I don't want something to happen to my kids' mom for their sake, but nothing particularly more special than that. I guess that's a sign of detachment, but to be honest I'm having a bit of guilt about it. I'll need to go over this with my IC next time we meet.
So…maybe now we might be piecing, or at least going that direction?
W has been in bed all week and we’ve had little contact due to her positive covid test. Me and the kids tested negative. This morning she texted me out of the blue: “How has therapy been going?”
I said good, I’ve been able to process this whole sitch and grieve the M, and also am working on learning new things about myself to be a better person. She said what kinds of new things, and I talked about a few.
Then she said “Do you still think we can fix the M?” Wait, what? Suddenly I'm thinking what I say might be very important. I said it’s possible, but we had a lot of problems with making each other feel loved and we turned too quickly to resentment rather than communication. We spent too much time together and need our own social outlets. We would both need to work on communicating better, realizing what parts we both played in this and work on ourselves improving on those things. It wouldn’t really be fixing the M but instead building a new M, which is scary and hard but also could be fun and exciting. But it would take time and effort and we’d have to decide if we want to put in that effort.
She said “I don’t know what to do. What if I try to stay and work on it but it doesn't work out?”
I said I know, that’s scary. There’s no guarantees. Of course there’s no guarantees leaving makes you happy either. But if we work on it maybe we end up in a loving and fulfilling relationship and stay as a family, and if not then all we’ve lost is a little bit of time, split up now or split up later. I’m 42 so there isn’t all the time in the world anymore, but right now I’m still willing to spend some time, you have to figure out if you are. Also I don’t think we tried all that hard before and that gives me some regrets, so at the very least we might end up more satisfied that we did what we could.
She said she also felt bad that she checked out without really trying, and she’s seen me doing things differently the past two months and thinks if I can put in some work on myself then she’s willing to work too. I am her best friend and she wants to try again.
She said we have had a long time without intimacy so we should basically go back to dating because we can’t go right back into it right away and it’s going to take time for both of us to heal. I am in agreement with that. She said she couldn’t make any other ultimatums or demands except that we needed to work on this together to make this work.
Anyway…I said above that I wasn’t feeling all that much for her anymore, and that was and is undoubtably true. But I am also happy to see if this can work out. This was totally unexpected, but I still feel that detachment and this gives me some confidence that I am going into this from a good spot. My boundaries so far: right now we will continue IC alone, we will talk about doing MC in the future. No talking to anyone else or any thing similar in any way to dating someone else (recall she was on Bumble). She said that she had gone on a couple dates but had not done more than talk. (I believe her based on some comments she’s made previously). Above all we need to communicate instead of burying our feelings. I will have to think this over more to see if there are others because this was out of blue…
How do I feel? A bit happy and relieved definitely, but maybe right now more than anything, cautious. I’ve been hurt, and I’d rather not get hurt again. But if you don’t put yourself out there, you might avoid getting hurt, but you won’t have success either. I do know that today is certainly not the end of my sitch, the work will need to continue or I’ll be right back in the same place soon. I still might end up back in the same place. If she doesn't change I might even be the WAS, as I indicated in my OP I was close to doing. But I am confident that whatever happens I will be ok.
Mako,
Proceed with caution because these things don't typically change over night. I would put zero stock in her not getting physical with anyone else. You will know by her actions.
Good luck!
Yep, caution is the name of the game. I understand these changes of heart happen and are sometimes short lived. And even if it ends up working out there will be bumps along the way.
HI Mako,
maybe now we might be piecing, or at least going that direction?
I have seen many get to this point. It is important for you to keep making positive changes to your behavior. Many let the other spouse back too easy. There is a balancing act.
I am not as versed as I should be in the signs that you are in piecing. I know there is a post that calls out the signs. I may have quoted it. I believe you are still in the "busting phase", but your behavior needs to change once you are in piecing. Until you know for sure you are in piecing, I believe busting behavior is better.
I wish you well
R2C
Might read this if you havn't already:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2251855#Post2251855
Hi Mako,
I hope things are heading in the direction you want, but yes, proceed with caution.
Remember, you can't talk your way out of this. It is going to be an accumulation of small events that precipitate large change. Even MWD wrote something quite similar in DR.
I would advise you to be less wordy in your response and to respond with more validation and concern for her.
mako, you need to proceed with caution. I would advocate, for the time being, continuing to let her come towards you. WASs are like timid cats. If they come towards you and you move too fast, they will dart the other way. So yes this conversation is a positive sign towards Ring and piecing, but I would say you are not piecing yet.
We've seen a lot of LBSs go all in as soon as their WAS shows the slightest interest only to have them run the other direction quickly. I would highly encourage you not be overly rambunctious at this point.
Thank you all, the advice makes sense.
She is still quarantining, probably coming out tomorrow as she has been better. I have of course been unable to do any GAL activities other than taking the kids to playgrounds and such a few times. Fortunately it's been nice out most of the time. I do have plans on Saturday assuming she is well enough to be out of quarantining and take on the kids.
I would say that I've been less distant than the full on DBing period, but definitely not all in. I wouldn't say I've been pursuing, though I have been available...she's stuck in a single room though so it's a weird situation. I have no desire to push her away before she can even think about coming back to me.
We talked on the phone for about an hour one night. Just mundane stuff mostly, but that was nice. Not something we had really done for a long time in the MR. In hindsight I probably should have ended it first but it naturally ended with Son's bedtime. She called me, I have not called her or initiated any texting conversations. I think I instinctively knew not to be pushy right now. One day she opened her 2nd floor window and talked to us while we were playing outside, talking about plans for the garden and yard--just a few days earlier we were planning to be gone from this house within 60 days so that's pretty positive. Of course there is a long way to go.
Anyway, we will see how tomorrow goes. I will remain on mostly DBing behavior until I can see where she is, which I realize might take some time. And yeah, validation remains very important, and maintaining everything positive that I'm doing for me.
mako, admittedly there are a lot of positive signs there! No question about it. But WASs, and WSs in particular, are notorious for talking about future plans even if they continue to say they want a D. So please do not give in to the temptation to ask her about it. One of the worst things you can do right now is to say something like: "The other day through the window you were talking about plans for a garden and the yard. But just a few days ago were planning on being out of her within 60 days. Which one is it?" That question will likely be met with a "I still want out" answer. So just coast here for a while and see if the signs continue to trend in the right way.
Definitely Steve. I think the LBS often feels "I need to know where we stand!" They are at a point of low confidence and self esteem after facing this massive rejection, and want reassurances. The WAS who is sorta in, sorta out isn't able to reassure and isn't going to answer that in a positive way because it's too smothering, if a choice is forced it's easier to just be out. Anyway, being so needy for such reassurances just looks weak, the opposite of how the LBS wants to be. The strong way to think is "I'm going to live my life, and if you want to come along with me please do." For now I'm going to live in my house and enjoy it, and she can be a part of that to some extent if she chooses. If circumstances change, if she wants to be more in or totally out, then I'll reevaluate. Coasting and observing is the way to go right now.
We talked on the phone for about an hour one night. Just mundane stuff mostly, but that was nice. Not something we had really done for a long time in the MR.
How did she "Feel" after this conversation? Most guys do not understand the importance about a woman's "Feelings" that happen during an interaction.
Do you understand her better after the conversation?
We talked on the phone for about an hour one night. Just mundane stuff mostly, but that was nice. Not something we had really done for a long time in the MR.
How did she "Feel" after this conversation? Most guys do not understand the importance about a woman's "Feelings" that happen during an interaction.
Do you understand her better after the conversation?
This is true, that I have to be in tune with how she is feeling. I don't think I've ever been great with my intuition, I will just need to pay attention and try to do better at that.
So last Wednesday she came out of quarantining. Since then we have been getting along great. Things have been busy because the little kids have been stuck at home until tomorrow due to the positive test in the family. But we have been hanging out and having a good time together. We are working well together parenting. We have both been around the house for the most part, though I got out to take S9 kayaking the other morning. She is still easily tired, though that's improving.
She has done some things that indicate she is seeing a future together. She went and bought a bunch of seeds and plants, so the plans for the garden I mentioned above are coming true. She finally set up her home office, she had kind of just been working at a table but she moved a bunch of things and made a more permanent set up. She has a work conference in the fall and she asked me if I wanted to go with her. This may seem like nothing but she had one a year ago and she made no such offer. Another symbolic thing is I noticed her wearing her ring today. I can't recall the last time I saw that, she had it off long before BD.
I have tried to walk the fine line between not wanting to push her away, and the idea that giving her affection would be my greatest and eventually most important 180. Keep in mind we were not merely a SSM, we were an affection starved marriage. She had said that she wanted to take things slow because we had been lacking intimacy for so long, and I have tried to stick to that, but we have also hugged and cuddled more in about 5 days than we had in probably 2 years. These have largely been initiated by me, but not solely. We have also had a couple pretty minor R talks where she brought up some things that had bugged her previously that I was unaware of, mostly about areas where she thought I was too controlling, I could see her point and mostly just validated. Other than that I think we are just taking it a day at a time.
So again, I remain cautious, but for now things seem to be going well.
At this point Mako, I'd look up talk charges and touch charges. Lots of positive signs here. I think you can subtly institute talk and touch charges to slowly start to rebuild a connection. If things continue to progress well, in a couple of weeks, I would suggest considering a low-key date night.
Lots of good signs here! Keep DBing. As R2C says, always be DBing!
Mako I certainly do not want to rain on your parade and these are all good signs on your quest for reconciliation. I have some comments and then questions in the end.
She has done some things that indicate she is seeing a future together. She went and bought a bunch of seeds and plants, so the plans for the garden I mentioned above are coming true. She finally set up her home office, she had kind of just been working at a table but she moved a bunch of things and made a more permanent set up. She has a work conference in the fall and she asked me if I wanted to go with her. This may seem like nothing but she had one a year ago and she made no such offer. Another symbolic thing is I noticed her wearing her ring today. I can't recall the last time I saw that, she had it off long before BD.
None of this means anything. I truly believe for the time being she believes she is back in.
She had said that she wanted to take things slow because we had been lacking intimacy for so long, and I have tried to stick to that, but we have also hugged and cuddled more in about 5 days than we had in probably 2 years. These have largely been initiated by me, but not solely.
IMO This needs to be the other way around where the majority of it is initiated by her. This is all about attraction and if she feels it she will initiate.
So again, I remain cautious, but for now things seem to be going well.
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
So my question is do you believe she is working to win you? Do you think you are taking her back to easy? What are your boundaries moving forward? Will she get IC? Will you do MC? Will you be open with your phones?
I ask these questions because I went through a false recon that sounds a lot like your situation in which my Exw's EA went south on her. These things do not typically turn around over night.
At this point Mako, I'd look up talk charges and touch charges. Lots of positive signs here. I think you can subtly institute talk and touch charges to slowly start to rebuild a connection.
Never heard of these, thanks Steve! They look like a good little thing to add. Those little things add up.
IMO This needs to be the other way around where the majority of (affection) is initiated by her. This is all about attraction and if she feels it she will initiate.
In a vacuum I agree and would say the same if commenting to someone else. Due to our history I feel like this is something that she is going to want to see what I'm capable of. She was the primary initiator of anything for a long time and got fed up with it being that way, and that mostly continued even after she told me she didn't want it to be that way. So she's not going to want to jump back into the same thing where it's like that again. I think that's fair,
to some extent. But I do agree that I will need some evidence of attraction to me as well to see that we are going in the right direction.
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
I definitely agree with this. I think the answer to 1 is a little complicated but yes she does. 2 I don't know...she was trying to date a little and has talked about it, my impression is that the grass was not actually greener out there, but as to better alone I have no idea. She was alone for a while before we got together so she does have some idea of what that's like, I.e. she's not one of those people that is only ever dating someone. As to 3, yes that needs to happen, I think in a healthy R both sides always need to be working to win the other. On the plus side, she is purposely spending time with me, and invited me out to lunch later in the week, which isn't typical. She knows quality time is an important LL to me. She is treating me differently than she had been for a while...it's hard to put my finger on how that is exactly, but I feel more love and kindness coming from her, the walls she had put up for a long time are maybe not all the way down but they are much improved. It just feels more like it did ~5 years ago when things were better. Could be in my head, I don't know.
So my question is do you believe she is working to win you? Do you think you are taking her back to easy? What are your boundaries moving forward? Will she get IC? Will you do MC? Will you be open with your phones?
These are hard questions, but important questions. Right now I am not sure. Working to win me is talked about above some, and I do think so at least a little bit. We have sorta discussed MC and I think that's something we should do. She had been planning to do IC for at least a month now but hasn't yet, if that continues that's a big red flag for sure. I am cognizant that I don't want to let her back too easily, we got here for a number of reasons and it wasn't just me. If I work on myself and she doesn't that's not really going to fly, I had kind of been coming to terms with acceptance of my whole sitch and I know that I was unhappy. I do think I would rather get a D than go back to where we were in 2019-20, we're both going to need to put in the effort if we're going to make this better.
I ask these questions because I went through a false recon that sounds a lot like your situation in which my Exw's EA went south on her. These things do not typically turn around over night.
I agree with you that this seems strange that it has changed overnight. Two months from BD, that isn't really enough time for the process to take its course. It seems like it usually takes a long time to get to the point where they want to walk, and a long time to come back from that. That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she
thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting. Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.
Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.
I agree with you that this seems strange that it has changed overnight. Two months from BD, that isn't really enough time for the process to take its course. It seems like it usually takes a long time to get to the point where they want to walk, and a long time to come back from that. That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting. Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.
Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.
While extremely rare, fairly quick turnarounds can and do occur. Mine has fairly quickly, certainly not over night, but in the matter of weeks she went from wanting out and saying she was leaving, to recommitting back to the marriage.
I too had the thought that COVID might have been a bit of a wake up call for your W. Things like that can have a profound effect. Not to mention she was in quarantine for 2 weeks and, I assume, reliant on you to provide food etc. Sometimes something like that can make them realize that they cannot rely on anyone else the way they can their current spouse. And finally do not discount the power of backing off, giving space, working on yourself, showing those positive changes, and being properly and lovingly detached. There are a percentage, however small, of WAS that that last part does have an impact on. Especially in the sitches where the LBSs bad or poor behavior was a major cause of the WAS becoming walkaway. Lots of times by time BD happens the WAS is too far gone by that point, but in a few rare cases a shorter turnaround time is possible.
I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.
Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"
Due to our history I feel like this is something that she is going to want to see what I'm capable of. She was the primary initiator of anything for a long time and got fed up with it being that way, and that mostly continued even after she told me she didn't want it to be that way. So she's not going to want to jump back into the same thing where it's like that again. I think that's fair, to some extent. But I do agree that I will need some evidence of attraction to me as well to see that we are going in the right direction.
I agree that this is a good 180. I think maybe 70/30 in your favor is a good mix.
It just feels more like it did ~5 years ago when things were better. Could be in my head, I don't know.
No I don't think it's in your head there is typically a honeymoon period here.
She had been planning to do IC for at least a month now but hasn't yet, if that continues that's a big red flag for sure.
If this and MC are not in the equation you will be most likely wasting your time.
I am cognizant that I don't want to let her back too easily, we got here for a number of reasons and it wasn't just me. If I work on myself and she doesn't that's not really going to fly, I had kind of been coming to terms with acceptance of my whole sitch and I know that I was unhappy. I do think I would rather get a D than go back to where we were in 2019-20, we're both going to need to put in the effort if we're going to make this better.
Agree 100%
That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting.
If you don't get to the root cause of why she was so unhappy that she was willing to blow up your family then you will certainly get bombed again. IMO based on experience and research 40 year old women are a bomb waiting to go off.
Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.
Though pointless I think you may be onto something. Have you ever seen someone bargaining with mortality get their wish only to go back to their old selves when the wish is granted.
Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.
No problem. You are an easy person to give advice to. You can tell this isn't your first rodeo.
Mako you may want to go take a look at my thread. My H went from fine to EA to PA to the A dead and over in 4 months. And was fully on board and back in the MR 4 months after that. He had some touch and go while he worked his own sh!t out. He himself admitted that lock down had been a huge factor in reevaluating me, our MR and why he blew our MR up. I imagine a condensed version of that with absolutely quarantine is possible.
I would just warn like LH has that even if she thinks she's all in today doesn't mean she'll still think she's all in tomorrow. She may waffle for a while. She may keep you at arms length until she figures it out. And by figure it out I mean that in the sense that it could go either way. It took my H longer to decided that he wanted back into the MR than it did for him to decide to sleep with someone else. You'll have to decide if you want to be in that position for as long as it take for her to figure it out. Due to Covid I didn't have much of a choice in the matter, but as weather warmed and house and apartment walk throughs were allowed again I decided he had until fall to p!ss or get off the pot. That might be something to consider while you process this.
I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.
Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"
Thanks. I tried to add in some of those touch charges. A hand on the back here, a touch on the arm there…little things that might add up in time. There are no grand gestures that turn these things around, only regular consistent actions.
Last night W actually asked me for help with a work problem and I sat with her for a while and got her through it. This is something I used to do for her once in a while, but she had stopped asking for some time, even prior to BD. After BD I had decided a boundary was that I’d no longer help her with work, but she never asked. Now I am fine doing so again.
I did have a few moments where I really felt an urge to talk and try and figure out where she sees us going right now, but I recognized it and let it pass. Not necessary right now.
Today we went out to lunch, and it was good. It's nice to hang out together without kids, really that hasn't happened enough in the past several years.
If you don't get to the root cause of why she was so unhappy that she was willing to blow up your family then you will certainly get bombed again. IMO based on experience and research 40 year old women are a bomb waiting to go off.
Agree 100% I mean she's mostly told me, but we have to see if that's all there is to it or if there's more there. And as we've said she's going to have to work these things out for herself too.
Mako you may want to go take a look at my thread. My H went from fine to EA to PA to the A dead and over in 4 months. And was fully on board and back in the MR 4 months after that. He had some touch and go while he worked his own sh!t out. He himself admitted that lock down had been a huge factor in reevaluating me, our MR and why he blew our MR up. I imagine a condensed version of that with absolutely quarantine is possible.
I would just warn like LH has that even if she thinks she's all in today doesn't mean she'll still think she's all in tomorrow. She may waffle for a while. She may keep you at arms length until she figures it out. And by figure it out I mean that in the sense that it could go either way. It took my H longer to decided that he wanted back into the MR than it did for him to decide to sleep with someone else. You'll have to decide if you want to be in that position for as long as it take for her to figure it out. Due to Covid I didn't have much of a choice in the matter, but as weather warmed and house and apartment walk throughs were allowed again I decided he had until fall to p!ss or get off the pot. That might be something to consider while you process this.
Wayfarer, thanks for stopping by on my thread. It’s unfortunately hard to find examples of folks who are piecing as that board is so dead, so I will be sure to check out your threads at some point. I've gotten through almost two of them and you seemed to be on a roller coaster for a while (aren't we all I suppose?), and I'm glad that it seems like you've made it to a better place now. For now it's still pretty new so I am just rolling with it, but you're right that at some point if she's still waffling, or maybe if she avoids IC or MC, I'll need to think about how long I'm willing to go. I need to stay realistic that things are still very much in flux and I can't get complacent.
I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.
Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"
Thanks. I tried to add in some of those touch charges. A hand on the back here, a touch on the arm there…little things that might add up in time. There are no grand gestures that turn these things around, only regular consistent actions.
Last night W actually asked me for help with a work problem and I sat with her for a while and got her through it. This is something I used to do for her once in a while, but she had stopped asking for some time, even prior to BD. After BD I had decided a boundary was that I’d no longer help her with work, but she never asked. Now I am fine doing so again.
I did have a few moments where I really felt an urge to talk and try and figure out where she sees us going right now, but I recognized it and let it pass. Not necessary right now.
Today we went out to lunch, and it was good. It's nice to hang out together without kids, really that hasn't happened enough in the past several years.
I like it! Remember to take it slow. And do not leave out the talk charges! I did both in my sitch as my W started to slowly come around. But I can look back and honestly say that the talk charges were more impactful than the touch charges!
Pre-covid (and work from home) she rarely heard from me from the time I left for work to the time I arrived home from work. And when she did it was always logistical in nature. "Do I need to pick up D from my parents?" "Do you need me to pick up anything for dinner?" "I am stopping at the store, need anything?" Etc.
So when I started calling her and quickly sharing a small story about something at work, or something I had heard, and then ending the call (or VM, this even works over VM), at first she was flabbergasted. Shocked that I was calling about something personal, or funny, and not logistical. Dare I say cold, even? And after a couple of weeks of doing that, something interesting started occurring. She started to reciprocate. She'd call just to tell me something she heard. Or she'd text me a news article, something she hadn't done in months. I do think that you need to be connecting on a deeper level than just through touch.
Yep, those are important too Steve! We used to do stuff like that but it had really fallen off.
A few weeks ago I found an old phone, maybe 5 or 6 years old. Took a look at our old texts. It was almost night and day how we talked to each other back then. A lot more playfulness and fun, a lot more sharing. Lately like you were talking about, a lot more just simple logistics. Would be nice to get back there again.
Also time to start a new thread.
New thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2918328&#Post2918328