Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 03:29 PM
Link to previous thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2887894&page=all
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 03:39 PM
Quick journaling because something happened last night which I think isn't good for me at all. I'm pretty sure like I've broken the DB rules.
W came home last night super drunk and was making the toilet bowl her bed. I went in to check on her because I wanted to use the bathroom and found her there. Gave her something warm to drink, carried her to her bed which kinda messed up my still-recovering-from-ops-right-knee, changed out her clothes which she didn’t resist and tucked her into bed.
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation. Throughout the process she only muttered one phrase softly, “Leave me alone” while I was changing out her clothes which she wasn’t resisting at all; in fact she went along with it.
She thanked me the next day and went radio silence again. I’m trying so hard not to expect any form of gratitude in return and boy was it hard but I managed to pull thru!
Also I had my usual therapy today as well. I have a gut feeling that my therapist is gearing me up on the prospect of divorcing. I'm not repulsed to the idea; I told her I'm not in a position to put a hard date to it yet as I'm still a work in progress. When I can't even answer the question of what do I really want confidently, I shouldn't be making hasty decisions.
W's inaction is in a way giving me time to focus and work on myself. My current focus in order of priority: Kids, work, GAL, health. I'm trying not to allow any breathing room to analyze my W's actions and words. I might slip here and there but baby steps... baby steps. I don't think I'm on a countdown timer yet so I'll take all the time I can have to work on myself.
W came home last night super drunk and was making the toilet bowl her bed. I went in to check on her because I wanted to use the bathroom and found her there. Gave her something warm to drink, carried her to her bed which kinda messed up my still-recovering-from-ops-right-knee, changed out her clothes which she didn’t resist and tucked her into bed.
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation. Throughout the process she only muttered one phrase softly, “Leave me alone” while I was changing out her clothes which she wasn’t resisting at all; in fact she went along with it.
She thanked me the next day and went radio silence again. I’m trying so hard not to expect any form of gratitude in return and boy was it hard but I managed to pull thru!
Also I had my usual therapy today as well. I have a gut feeling that my therapist is gearing me up on the prospect of divorcing. I'm not repulsed to the idea; I told her I'm not in a position to put a hard date to it yet as I'm still a work in progress. When I can't even answer the question of what do I really want confidently, I shouldn't be making hasty decisions.
W's inaction is in a way giving me time to focus and work on myself. My current focus in order of priority: Kids, work, GAL, health. I'm trying not to allow any breathing room to analyze my W's actions and words. I might slip here and there but baby steps... baby steps. I don't think I'm on a countdown timer yet so I'll take all the time I can have to work on myself.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 04:16 PM
That post is very worrisome . You wanted to take advantage of your pissed drunk wife who couldn’t resist because she was physically too drunk? That thought actually crossed your mind ? Am I reading this right ?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation. Throughout the process she only muttered one phrase softly, “Leave me alone” while I was changing out her clothes which she wasn’t resisting at all; in fact she went along with it.
uuuuummmm I am pretty sure "leave me alone" is resisting.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 04:46 PM
Not caught up on story but wanted to chime in that that last post is a bit creepy. I understand when I had in house separation with my W there were days I thought about missing the physical and that was the longest period in my life since I had been a young teenage boy going without sex ever... don’t put yourself in those creeper situations especially with any drunk woman.
You could have moved her fully clothed and left her fully clothed if it was that bad like you had diarrhea and only one toilet.
Please continue the work, it’s very weak to expect anything from her like you were being a good helping boy. She was drunk... leave her to her mess.
Btw, her inaction , action, or anything she does should not interfere or have any affect on your progress and what you decide to do for yourself.
You could have moved her fully clothed and left her fully clothed if it was that bad like you had diarrhea and only one toilet.
Please continue the work, it’s very weak to expect anything from her like you were being a good helping boy. She was drunk... leave her to her mess.
Btw, her inaction , action, or anything she does should not interfere or have any affect on your progress and what you decide to do for yourself.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Adam04
You could have moved her fully clothed and left her fully clothed if it was that bad like you had diarrhea and only one toilet.
huh?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 05:16 PM
He didn’t have to undress her to change her, he moved her to the bedrooom cus he needed to use the toilet. Could have left her in her original clothes she probably vomited all over.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
Quick journaling because something happened last night which I think isn't good for me at all. I'm pretty sure like I've broken the DB rules.
Journaling is great for processing things, and journaling here also for support and advice.
Originally Posted by Akuei
Gave her something warm to drink, carried her to her bed which kinda messed up my still-recovering-from-ops-right-knee, changed out her clothes which she didn’t resist and tucked her into bed.
While you have no obligation to her, as a one-off helping someone who's drunk falls under "basic human kindness". I hope she appreciates it! I'm sorry you accidentally hurt your knee. Given your priorities, I assume that was an unforeseen consequence and not prioritizing her over your own health.
Originally Posted by Akuei
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation.
I'm glad you realized that was wrong and didn't act on it. Changing her clothes gave me pause when she told you to stop. Would you have stopped or continued with an acquaintance or stranger?
Originally Posted by Akuei
She thanked me the next day and went radio silence again. I’m trying so hard not to expect any form of gratitude in return and boy was it hard but I managed to pull thru!
Good, she appreciated the good deed and expressed that naturally--"Thank you." Did you expect more?
Originally Posted by Akuei
W's inaction is in a way giving me time to focus and work on myself. My current focus in order of priority: Kids, work, GAL, health.
Keep at the self-work!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Adam04
He didn’t have to undress her to change her, he moved her to the bedrooom cus he needed to use the toilet. Could have left her in her original clothes she probably vomited all over.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Thanks for clarifying Adam.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Adam04
He didn’t have to undress her to change her, he moved her to the bedrooom cus he needed to use the toilet. Could have left her in her original clothes she probably vomited all over.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Edit to include I don’t buy the reason he did all that was cuz he needed to pee or use the bathroom.
Thanks for clarifying Adam.
No problem, my response was wordy and hasty. I’ve recently been working from home so trying to chime in during the daytime with much less paragraphs that I’m used to writing.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 06:05 PM
AKuei, your STBXW expressed feeling gratitude, but could have just as easily expressed feeling violated. Please take-away from the forum reactions how important it is to honor when someone says "No". We get it's hard when struggling with emotions and facing unusual situations late at night.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
We get it's hard when struggling with emotions and facing unusual situations late at night.
WTF?????
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 07:02 PM
LH, I'm trying to acknowledge that it would be hard for AKeui to see a loved one covered in vomit and not help while being clear "No" should be honored, undressing her when she said "Leave me alone" is a problem, and the boundary violation was severe enough legal consequences could have been possible.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 07:26 PM
Quote
LH, I'm trying to acknowledge that it would be hard for AKeui to see a loved one covered in vomit and not help while being clear "No" should be honored, undressing her when she said "Leave me alone" is a problem, and the boundary violation was severe enough legal consequences could have been possible.
He was thinking too much about having sex with her, to consider any legal consequences. Probably doesn't listen to other things she says either, but IDK. There are some men who just believe they know what's best to do, regardless of what she's saying. How many movies have we seen that had similar scenarios?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 07:27 PM
CW I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Sounded like you were validating his creepy behavior.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
Quick journaling because something happened last night which I think isn't good for me at all. I'm pretty sure like I've broken the DB rules.
W came home last night super drunk and was making the toilet bowl her bed. I went in to check on her because I wanted to use the bathroom and found her there. Gave her something warm to drink, carried her to her bed which kinda messed up my still-recovering-from-ops-right-knee, changed out her clothes which she didn’t resist and tucked her into bed.
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation. Throughout the process she only muttered one phrase softly, “Leave me alone” while I was changing out her clothes which she wasn’t resisting at all; in fact she went along with it.
She thanked me the next day and went radio silence again. I’m trying so hard not to expect any form of gratitude in return and boy was it hard but I managed to pull thru!
Also I had my usual therapy today as well. I have a gut feeling that my therapist is gearing me up on the prospect of divorcing. I'm not repulsed to the idea; I told her I'm not in a position to put a hard date to it yet as I'm still a work in progress. When I can't even answer the question of what do I really want confidently, I shouldn't be making hasty decisions.
W's inaction is in a way giving me time to focus and work on myself. My current focus in order of priority: Kids, work, GAL, health. I'm trying not to allow any breathing room to analyze my W's actions and words. I might slip here and there but baby steps... baby steps. I don't think I'm on a countdown timer yet so I'll take all the time I can have to work on myself.
W came home last night super drunk and was making the toilet bowl her bed. I went in to check on her because I wanted to use the bathroom and found her there. Gave her something warm to drink, carried her to her bed which kinda messed up my still-recovering-from-ops-right-knee, changed out her clothes which she didn’t resist and tucked her into bed.
I’ve not been so up close with my W for a year plus and I was contemplating to be intimate when she was naked. But I managed to compose myself and did the right thing by not taking advantage of the situation. Throughout the process she only muttered one phrase softly, “Leave me alone” while I was changing out her clothes which she wasn’t resisting at all; in fact she went along with it.
She thanked me the next day and went radio silence again. I’m trying so hard not to expect any form of gratitude in return and boy was it hard but I managed to pull thru!
Also I had my usual therapy today as well. I have a gut feeling that my therapist is gearing me up on the prospect of divorcing. I'm not repulsed to the idea; I told her I'm not in a position to put a hard date to it yet as I'm still a work in progress. When I can't even answer the question of what do I really want confidently, I shouldn't be making hasty decisions.
W's inaction is in a way giving me time to focus and work on myself. My current focus in order of priority: Kids, work, GAL, health. I'm trying not to allow any breathing room to analyze my W's actions and words. I might slip here and there but baby steps... baby steps. I don't think I'm on a countdown timer yet so I'll take all the time I can have to work on myself.
AK, you do realize she fired you as her H, right? What you did for her is what a H would do for his W. You ain't that and she ain't that. So why didn't you just leave her to her own misery?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/02/21 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
I'm pretty sure like I've broken the DB rules.
Sir, there is only one DB rule and that's this:
Use what works, reject what doesn't work.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/03/21 12:05 AM
This drunk episode reminds me of a one night stand I had when my wife had run off with OM.
I met the woman in the bar, she was extremely drunk and I was half cut also.
She invited me back with her. Some time after "doing the deed" she collapsed drunk on the bathroom floor. For want of any other options, I simply put her in the recovery position so she wouldn't choke on her own vomit, and left. I'm pretty ashamed of this and should have never have gotten in the taxi with her to begin with.
Next time this happens (and it will), do nothing other than put her in the recovery position. No moving her or removing her clothes.
Let her throw up all over her clothes.
Let her wake up with her tongue hanging out of her mouth, pressed against the base of the toilet.
Help her to enjoy the consequences of her choices.
You'll be blamed for not "helping" her and reminded of what a rubbish husband you are but have none of it. Do the right thing. Allow natural justice!
I met the woman in the bar, she was extremely drunk and I was half cut also.
She invited me back with her. Some time after "doing the deed" she collapsed drunk on the bathroom floor. For want of any other options, I simply put her in the recovery position so she wouldn't choke on her own vomit, and left. I'm pretty ashamed of this and should have never have gotten in the taxi with her to begin with.
Next time this happens (and it will), do nothing other than put her in the recovery position. No moving her or removing her clothes.
Let her throw up all over her clothes.
Let her wake up with her tongue hanging out of her mouth, pressed against the base of the toilet.
Help her to enjoy the consequences of her choices.
You'll be blamed for not "helping" her and reminded of what a rubbish husband you are but have none of it. Do the right thing. Allow natural justice!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/03/21 12:10 AM
I’m also a little concerned about how her drunk on the bathroom floor hugging the toilet got you in the mood to be intimate with her?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/03/21 01:23 AM
Thank you all so much for chiming in... I might have left out a few details so it's natural that I appeared as creepy (i read back my post and I face-palmed myself too... haha)
I'll try to answer all the questions to my best!
Ginger1: That was one of the thoughts that crossed my mind; if I could recall a few major thoughts which happened in just a few seconds
1. Leave her be
2. Take advantage because of the lack of intimacy
3. Berate her for getting so drunk
4. Change out her clothes and put her to bed (eventually I took this option)
Adam04: I do have another toilet but the tenant was using it. Initially I wanted to use the bathroom but she was hogging it for hours; thus I wanted to make sure she didn't die in her own pool of puke. As for changing out her clothes; we have this habit of not lying down the bed without clean clothes + her dress stinks of cigarette smoke and greasy food (runs in the family; call us germophobes...) I asked her a few times if she would like a change of clothes, she responded with nods and a weak "Yes"
CWarrior: She didn't resist at all. Her statement of "Leave me alone" came towards the end of the changing out. She even sat up to allow me to access her dress and bra. I proceed to do it and was careful not to touch any lady parts.
sandi2: that thought of sex was a fleeting moment; no more than 2 seconds. I didn't venture into the legal consequences because I killed that thought with other thoughts and just tucked her into bed. Just wanted to be honest with myself and journal all the crazy thoughts I had at that moment
Steve85: Yes, exactly. When i returned to my side of the bed I started rethinking. "Wait a minute... I was fired and I'm helping her in her mess? What in the flying F was i thinking?!?!." But water under bridge; the next thing I could control was to avoid expectations. So far it's doing good. When she texted me the next day to thank me and said she hope she didn't mess up the toilet too badly, I took hours to respond with "No worries"
GH31: That's a good recommendation. I will seriously consider that if there's a next time. No point for me to make her all comfy and such.
I'll try to answer all the questions to my best!
Ginger1: That was one of the thoughts that crossed my mind; if I could recall a few major thoughts which happened in just a few seconds
1. Leave her be
2. Take advantage because of the lack of intimacy
3. Berate her for getting so drunk
4. Change out her clothes and put her to bed (eventually I took this option)
Adam04: I do have another toilet but the tenant was using it. Initially I wanted to use the bathroom but she was hogging it for hours; thus I wanted to make sure she didn't die in her own pool of puke. As for changing out her clothes; we have this habit of not lying down the bed without clean clothes + her dress stinks of cigarette smoke and greasy food (runs in the family; call us germophobes...) I asked her a few times if she would like a change of clothes, she responded with nods and a weak "Yes"
CWarrior: She didn't resist at all. Her statement of "Leave me alone" came towards the end of the changing out. She even sat up to allow me to access her dress and bra. I proceed to do it and was careful not to touch any lady parts.
sandi2: that thought of sex was a fleeting moment; no more than 2 seconds. I didn't venture into the legal consequences because I killed that thought with other thoughts and just tucked her into bed. Just wanted to be honest with myself and journal all the crazy thoughts I had at that moment
Steve85: Yes, exactly. When i returned to my side of the bed I started rethinking. "Wait a minute... I was fired and I'm helping her in her mess? What in the flying F was i thinking?!?!." But water under bridge; the next thing I could control was to avoid expectations. So far it's doing good. When she texted me the next day to thank me and said she hope she didn't mess up the toilet too badly, I took hours to respond with "No worries"
GH31: That's a good recommendation. I will seriously consider that if there's a next time. No point for me to make her all comfy and such.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/03/21 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
1. Leave her be
As Cadet says: Doing NOTHING is doing SOMETHING. When a LBS feels the need to act (illusion of action) sometimes the best thing to do is to step back and do nothing at all.
Admit it AK, and you struggling with expectations post the incident prove it, you were hoping to score points by taking care of her.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/04/21 07:19 AM
Yup you're right Steve deep down I'm thinking along the lines of scoring brownie points.
Bad thinking on my end. I think I need to do something drastic to detach myself away from these kind of thoughts.
Bad thinking on my end. I think I need to do something drastic to detach myself away from these kind of thoughts.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/04/21 03:19 PM
DB is about baby steps, not drastic steps. Not sure what you mean by drastic steps? But if you cannot take the baby step of seeing her laying in her own misery and not helping her, then I am not sure you can take a drastic step towards detachment.
What do you mean by "drastic" step?
What do you mean by "drastic" step?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/04/21 05:12 PM
Lol, Steve I was going to comment on the same thing about drastic steps...
To me it sounds like it’s coming from a place of fear. If AK feels in order to dB he has to take these drastic measures it either sounds like from fear or a cop out to not simply look at what he can easily do today, taking those baby steps. I say cop out only because it looks like he’s hung up on getting brownie points and trying to nice his way back ... sounds like denial and bargaining. Doesn’t sound like acceptance to move on.
I was also going to add, did you read DR AK, are you adhering and putting the rules to memory. This for me is important, Do you believe your marriage is dead?
I can see where people get tunnel vision on saving their marriage not truly believing it’s dead. This is not a tangible thing. I feel once you understand and come to terms with it you begin other cycles of your grief... right now still seems like denial. If you haven’t checked into the stages of grief I suggest you do so to shed some light on where you’re at to see what you’re doing. Try to get to a place of acceptance and move on.
Before posting , I went back to read your sitch last night Ak. I was asking myself if you didn’t think repulsion enough was a motivator to let her be.
To me it sounds like it’s coming from a place of fear. If AK feels in order to dB he has to take these drastic measures it either sounds like from fear or a cop out to not simply look at what he can easily do today, taking those baby steps. I say cop out only because it looks like he’s hung up on getting brownie points and trying to nice his way back ... sounds like denial and bargaining. Doesn’t sound like acceptance to move on.
I was also going to add, did you read DR AK, are you adhering and putting the rules to memory. This for me is important, Do you believe your marriage is dead?
I can see where people get tunnel vision on saving their marriage not truly believing it’s dead. This is not a tangible thing. I feel once you understand and come to terms with it you begin other cycles of your grief... right now still seems like denial. If you haven’t checked into the stages of grief I suggest you do so to shed some light on where you’re at to see what you’re doing. Try to get to a place of acceptance and move on.
Before posting , I went back to read your sitch last night Ak. I was asking myself if you didn’t think repulsion enough was a motivator to let her be.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/05/21 07:27 AM
I guess my definition of drastic steps is kinda like trying my very best to leave her be and let her own her consequences.
I'm not going to deny that I am still in the early stages of detachment; vacillating between being nice to her and distancing myself.
I'm dipping my toes into acceptance; but there's still some portion of denial and bargaining in me that I need to get rid of (I'm still trying to work this out with my IC).
And i don't think there's a linear path to it; I have to be patient that I will jump back and forth but the main point is that I'm crawling forwards and not backwards.
When I look back a year ago where I was doing all sorts of push behavior, I'm confident to say that I've improved; maybe not significantly but good enough to give myself a pat on the back that I've tried my best.
And thank you all for the 2x4s; I need them to straighten myself!
And to answer Adam's questions; I'm gonna read DR for the 4th time this weekend... I've been reading Sandi's 37 rules every other day to try to drill them into my head. As for the repulsion part; it seems that I'm still not repulsed enough to leave her to her own devices. I will need more work on that area.
Water under bridge; I will dust it off and start all over again. Baby steps or not!
I'm not going to deny that I am still in the early stages of detachment; vacillating between being nice to her and distancing myself.
I'm dipping my toes into acceptance; but there's still some portion of denial and bargaining in me that I need to get rid of (I'm still trying to work this out with my IC).
And i don't think there's a linear path to it; I have to be patient that I will jump back and forth but the main point is that I'm crawling forwards and not backwards.
When I look back a year ago where I was doing all sorts of push behavior, I'm confident to say that I've improved; maybe not significantly but good enough to give myself a pat on the back that I've tried my best.
And thank you all for the 2x4s; I need them to straighten myself!
And to answer Adam's questions; I'm gonna read DR for the 4th time this weekend... I've been reading Sandi's 37 rules every other day to try to drill them into my head. As for the repulsion part; it seems that I'm still not repulsed enough to leave her to her own devices. I will need more work on that area.
Water under bridge; I will dust it off and start all over again. Baby steps or not!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/05/21 09:34 AM
AK,
It's pretty simple to leave someone to face their own consequences, just means you do nothing. You move aside. Like that night prime example.
Let me tell you, in my sitch people were telling me to wake up. My marriage was dead, I was dealing with a WW and her heart was full of resentment.
You know there is an OM, she's out late at night. Spending nights on the weekend now? Yet you say you aren't sure if there is an EA/PA??? You're fooling yourself and you're stalling your progress.
YOUR MARRIAGE IS DEAD. I'm sorry to say that but it is for right now.
You're right grief is not linear. Take all the time you need to cycle through your feelings.
Okay about the DR book. You read it a few times. Great. So you remember where it says if they have one foot out the door you stop and go to the back of the book to the LRT? Well consider that where we are. You do nothing but leave her be. No pursuit, no pushing, no chasing. I feel that the DR book is good if you're patching up a rocky relationship with the W and yall are still on good speaking terms like pre BD, but post BD, treat em differently.
And since its a WW you're dealing with, have you read all of Sandi's posts on the WW mindset and the loss of respect for you as a man?
Sounds like you understand the push pull relationship and how that can be harmful. With the male being the chaser, coupled with possible case of NGS for nice guy syndrome, it'll more likely cause the woman to be repulsed from the chasing , begging, pursuing, trying to get them to see things. You'll come off as trying to control her.
The quicker you stop, the sooner she may feel less pressure from you. Doesn't mean anything to the already dead relationship, just means you aren't making it worse to where she feels like she needs to run to the courthouse for the D.
Now while you take the pressure off of her... here comes more of the baby steps of working on you. Asking yourself what went wrong. Were you a slob, fix it. Were you always yelling and mad, control those emotional outburst. Were you passive aggressive?
Learning to detach, there are baby steps to that like getting rid of the feeling that you needed to do something for her.
Some attachment issues may stem from NGS, nice guy syndrome, have you looked into that? Working towards identifying your issues and working on them one at a time is baby steps.
As the runner, they will need their space so as not to feel like you are pressuring them. As the chaser you will feel the need to be close to them. You're going to have to work on this dynamic with some self control.
It's pretty simple to leave someone to face their own consequences, just means you do nothing. You move aside. Like that night prime example.
Let me tell you, in my sitch people were telling me to wake up. My marriage was dead, I was dealing with a WW and her heart was full of resentment.
You know there is an OM, she's out late at night. Spending nights on the weekend now? Yet you say you aren't sure if there is an EA/PA??? You're fooling yourself and you're stalling your progress.
YOUR MARRIAGE IS DEAD. I'm sorry to say that but it is for right now.
You're right grief is not linear. Take all the time you need to cycle through your feelings.
Okay about the DR book. You read it a few times. Great. So you remember where it says if they have one foot out the door you stop and go to the back of the book to the LRT? Well consider that where we are. You do nothing but leave her be. No pursuit, no pushing, no chasing. I feel that the DR book is good if you're patching up a rocky relationship with the W and yall are still on good speaking terms like pre BD, but post BD, treat em differently.
And since its a WW you're dealing with, have you read all of Sandi's posts on the WW mindset and the loss of respect for you as a man?
Sounds like you understand the push pull relationship and how that can be harmful. With the male being the chaser, coupled with possible case of NGS for nice guy syndrome, it'll more likely cause the woman to be repulsed from the chasing , begging, pursuing, trying to get them to see things. You'll come off as trying to control her.
The quicker you stop, the sooner she may feel less pressure from you. Doesn't mean anything to the already dead relationship, just means you aren't making it worse to where she feels like she needs to run to the courthouse for the D.
Now while you take the pressure off of her... here comes more of the baby steps of working on you. Asking yourself what went wrong. Were you a slob, fix it. Were you always yelling and mad, control those emotional outburst. Were you passive aggressive?
Learning to detach, there are baby steps to that like getting rid of the feeling that you needed to do something for her.
Some attachment issues may stem from NGS, nice guy syndrome, have you looked into that? Working towards identifying your issues and working on them one at a time is baby steps.
As the runner, they will need their space so as not to feel like you are pressuring them. As the chaser you will feel the need to be close to them. You're going to have to work on this dynamic with some self control.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/05/21 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
I guess my definition of drastic steps is kinda like trying my very best to leave her be and let her own her consequences.
I'm not going to deny that I am still in the early stages of detachment; vacillating between being nice to her and distancing myself.
I'm dipping my toes into acceptance; but there's still some portion of denial and bargaining in me that I need to get rid of (I'm still trying to work this out with my IC).
And i don't think there's a linear path to it; I have to be patient that I will jump back and forth but the main point is that I'm crawling forwards and not backwards.
When I look back a year ago where I was doing all sorts of push behavior, I'm confident to say that I've improved; maybe not significantly but good enough to give myself a pat on the back that I've tried my best.
And thank you all for the 2x4s; I need them to straighten myself!
And to answer Adam's questions; I'm gonna read DR for the 4th time this weekend... I've been reading Sandi's 37 rules every other day to try to drill them into my head. As for the repulsion part; it seems that I'm still not repulsed enough to leave her to her own devices. I will need more work on that area.
Water under bridge; I will dust it off and start all over again. Baby steps or not!
I'm not going to deny that I am still in the early stages of detachment; vacillating between being nice to her and distancing myself.
I'm dipping my toes into acceptance; but there's still some portion of denial and bargaining in me that I need to get rid of (I'm still trying to work this out with my IC).
And i don't think there's a linear path to it; I have to be patient that I will jump back and forth but the main point is that I'm crawling forwards and not backwards.
When I look back a year ago where I was doing all sorts of push behavior, I'm confident to say that I've improved; maybe not significantly but good enough to give myself a pat on the back that I've tried my best.
And thank you all for the 2x4s; I need them to straighten myself!
And to answer Adam's questions; I'm gonna read DR for the 4th time this weekend... I've been reading Sandi's 37 rules every other day to try to drill them into my head. As for the repulsion part; it seems that I'm still not repulsed enough to leave her to her own devices. I will need more work on that area.
Water under bridge; I will dust it off and start all over again. Baby steps or not!
AK how long are you willing to wait for her?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/08/21 11:59 PM
Sorry for the delay in response. Needed to take a few days off the board to gather my thoughts...
I've realised that months ago, I'm still in the bargaining stage to be honest. It's a steep hill to climb to acceptance but I'll get there eventually.
I believed I've read most of them. I've been doing my best to stand up for myself and the kids. I've been putting most of my focus on my kids and my work and myself. There are some nights where I'm so tempted to go pain shopping or even initiate a conversation but so far I've stopped myself.
Her comments during BD was that I was an absent parent, flying off to work for weeks and still have the cheek to take an extra 1-2 days to travel the country before heading home. Being sarcastic at times about women doing housework, having a short fuse towards the kis, etc. I made sure I do a 180 about those. My kids are closer to me than the W (because she's out socialising with her colleagues; who by the way were mostly divorced and kept dishing her ill advices), I've taken up most of the chores because I'm working from home; even cooking for the kids most of the days. No short fuses anymore, I just took a deep breath and stopped myself from screaming and tried to talk in a calmful manner. I've grown to like this version of myself better and I intend to keep improving on that.
Oh yes, I have NGS without a doubt. Always having a covert contract and having expectations. I'm working on getting rid of that so that I can be happy without expecting anything from anyone. The fear of not doing things seems to have an effect on me previously last time because NGS will tend to think that the inaction will further speed up the hatred of the W. I'm really taking baby steps here because it's so hard to shake of decades of habit. But I am starting to stop myself in the tracks if i know the things I'm doing are signs of NGS. Works MOST of the time though. Haha.
The other night I lost the battle when she opened up a little and I kind of mentioned about our sitch as "been so long this is dragging on". She mentioned that her decision is final and she's perfectly fine with the current sitch (limboland). I told her I understand where you are coming from and I thanked her for confirming it. Had an anxiety attack after and once I calmed down I realised the folly I've made and I went back to re-read sandi's rules. I was so angry with myself how I slipped up on this.
I'm struggling to detach because when I try to detach, my face says it all. I will purposely avoid having eye contact with her, not being proactive in starting conversation (I don't see the need), my face just turns all serious and not jovial at all. How do I improve on this? However, when she approaches me for any comments on anything, I made sure to respond in a calm and friendly way.
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YOUR MARRIAGE IS DEAD. I'm sorry to say that but it is for right now.
I've realised that months ago, I'm still in the bargaining stage to be honest. It's a steep hill to climb to acceptance but I'll get there eventually.
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And since its a WW you're dealing with, have you read all of Sandi's posts on the WW mindset and the loss of respect for you as a man?
I believed I've read most of them. I've been doing my best to stand up for myself and the kids. I've been putting most of my focus on my kids and my work and myself. There are some nights where I'm so tempted to go pain shopping or even initiate a conversation but so far I've stopped myself.
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Now while you take the pressure off of her... here comes more of the baby steps of working on you. Asking yourself what went wrong. Were you a slob, fix it. Were you always yelling and mad, control those emotional outburst. Were you passive aggressive?
Her comments during BD was that I was an absent parent, flying off to work for weeks and still have the cheek to take an extra 1-2 days to travel the country before heading home. Being sarcastic at times about women doing housework, having a short fuse towards the kis, etc. I made sure I do a 180 about those. My kids are closer to me than the W (because she's out socialising with her colleagues; who by the way were mostly divorced and kept dishing her ill advices), I've taken up most of the chores because I'm working from home; even cooking for the kids most of the days. No short fuses anymore, I just took a deep breath and stopped myself from screaming and tried to talk in a calmful manner. I've grown to like this version of myself better and I intend to keep improving on that.
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Learning to detach, there are baby steps to that like getting rid of the feeling that you needed to do something for her.
Some attachment issues may stem from NGS, nice guy syndrome, have you looked into that? Working towards identifying your issues and working on them one at a time is baby steps.
Some attachment issues may stem from NGS, nice guy syndrome, have you looked into that? Working towards identifying your issues and working on them one at a time is baby steps.
Oh yes, I have NGS without a doubt. Always having a covert contract and having expectations. I'm working on getting rid of that so that I can be happy without expecting anything from anyone. The fear of not doing things seems to have an effect on me previously last time because NGS will tend to think that the inaction will further speed up the hatred of the W. I'm really taking baby steps here because it's so hard to shake of decades of habit. But I am starting to stop myself in the tracks if i know the things I'm doing are signs of NGS. Works MOST of the time though. Haha.
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As the runner, they will need their space so as not to feel like you are pressuring them. As the chaser you will feel the need to be close to them. You're going to have to work on this dynamic with some self control.
The other night I lost the battle when she opened up a little and I kind of mentioned about our sitch as "been so long this is dragging on". She mentioned that her decision is final and she's perfectly fine with the current sitch (limboland). I told her I understand where you are coming from and I thanked her for confirming it. Had an anxiety attack after and once I calmed down I realised the folly I've made and I went back to re-read sandi's rules. I was so angry with myself how I slipped up on this.
I'm struggling to detach because when I try to detach, my face says it all. I will purposely avoid having eye contact with her, not being proactive in starting conversation (I don't see the need), my face just turns all serious and not jovial at all. How do I improve on this? However, when she approaches me for any comments on anything, I made sure to respond in a calm and friendly way.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/09/21 12:03 AM
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AK how long are you willing to wait for her?
I didn't set a hard deadline for this. I always think that when the time comes I will just know it. Recently it's quite apparent that I've been thinking about divorce a lot. Thought about what happens if i pull the trigger first.
Doesn't do us good to just keep dragging on like this. She might be buying time for her exit strategy for all I know. Waiting for her EA/PA to be ready I guess.
Trying to wrap my head around the alimony and stuff. I'll be reaching out to my lawyer in a couple of weeks to explore my options.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/09/21 12:23 AM
Hi Akuei,
For most people, what you describe above is not detachment. Is this the way you act this way around other people you're not attached to--e.g. colleagues, cashiers, or coffeeshop baristas?! I'm not so concerned about you not starting conversations. Averting eye contact (unless on an elevator, subway, or busy urban street) and looking stony serious (all the time) are not typically happy or attractive behaviors.
How to improve? You could reduce your logistical interdependence on and communication with your ex. Second, you could find your solo happiness--that may include finding active hobbies and relaxing pastimes you enjoy, self-work like turning off your inner critic, or working towards becoming whatever vision of success is uniquely Akuei apart from your ex. Being happy tends to make you look more jovial.
That's great!
Originally Posted by Akuei
I'm struggling to detach because when I try to detach, my face says it all. I will purposely avoid having eye contact with her.. my face just turns all serious and not jovial at all. How do I improve on this?
For most people, what you describe above is not detachment. Is this the way you act this way around other people you're not attached to--e.g. colleagues, cashiers, or coffeeshop baristas?! I'm not so concerned about you not starting conversations. Averting eye contact (unless on an elevator, subway, or busy urban street) and looking stony serious (all the time) are not typically happy or attractive behaviors.
How to improve? You could reduce your logistical interdependence on and communication with your ex. Second, you could find your solo happiness--that may include finding active hobbies and relaxing pastimes you enjoy, self-work like turning off your inner critic, or working towards becoming whatever vision of success is uniquely Akuei apart from your ex. Being happy tends to make you look more jovial.
Originally Posted by Akuei
However, when she approaches me for any comments on anything, I made sure to respond in a calm and friendly way.
That's great!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 02/09/21 02:14 AM
Thanks CW..
I usually don't communicate with the W unless it's about the kids or logistical issues. She's still very active within my immediate family and friends (playing mahjong with my dad, joining my friends for gathering, etc) Some of my friends and my siblings knows what's going on but they respect me enough to not join in the fray to talk/scold/counsel her. I also told them not to because I'm handling this on my own.
Great advice on the colleagues, cashiers- type of interaction. I'll put in more effort to emulate that sort of behavior! It's just that whenever i see her i got reminded about the harsh words she had thrown at me previously and I unknowingly activated my bitchy face. All of her actions about hanging out with EA/PA/Colleagues till the middle of the night, living her life as if she's single, etc etc, are really making me disgusted with her.
I'm actually going to sign up to get a boat license, get certified for my japanese language (I sorta need it for my job), and signing up for positive parenting workshop (she knew about this but doesn't want to join but I went ahead anyway).
And I'm also bracing for the D letter from the W. Not sure when but I have a gut feeling it's coming soon. I will want to make sure I don't lose it and do stupid things.
I usually don't communicate with the W unless it's about the kids or logistical issues. She's still very active within my immediate family and friends (playing mahjong with my dad, joining my friends for gathering, etc) Some of my friends and my siblings knows what's going on but they respect me enough to not join in the fray to talk/scold/counsel her. I also told them not to because I'm handling this on my own.
Great advice on the colleagues, cashiers- type of interaction. I'll put in more effort to emulate that sort of behavior! It's just that whenever i see her i got reminded about the harsh words she had thrown at me previously and I unknowingly activated my bitchy face. All of her actions about hanging out with EA/PA/Colleagues till the middle of the night, living her life as if she's single, etc etc, are really making me disgusted with her.
I'm actually going to sign up to get a boat license, get certified for my japanese language (I sorta need it for my job), and signing up for positive parenting workshop (she knew about this but doesn't want to join but I went ahead anyway).
And I'm also bracing for the D letter from the W. Not sure when but I have a gut feeling it's coming soon. I will want to make sure I don't lose it and do stupid things.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 03:08 AM
It's been a solid 7 months since my last update. I've been putting off penning my thoughts here because it has been an overwhelming period for me. Nonetheless, gonna write a lengthy story again.
The reason why I was gone for so long is because my father passed away a few hours after getting his 1st covid shot. It was shocking and I was totally crushed by his passing.
Prior to that dreaded day, I did have a short conversation with the W on what were the future plans. I was on the false assumption that she had soften because she was engaging me more than ever, and behaving like it was pre bomb drop. Boy was I wrong big time. She said she likes the current situation; in house separation (I sleep with the kids while she sleeps by herself on another bed in the same room, no intimacy, basically roommates, etc)
And then when my father passed on, I just broke down completely. I felt like I've lost the most pillar of my life. I have no one else to prove to, I have no reasons to keep up with the facade. Nonetheless, I've tried to be there for the kids. To be honest, the kids were there to help me thru the grief instead. They are young and they only talked about the fun times they have with grandpa and kept telling me he's in heaven now. They really pulled me thru the darkest times. W was there to support in any capacity she can, helping to take care of the kids, doing what she can to assist in the funeral, etc. I was grateful and I personally thanked her for it.
I'm still on therapy and processing my father's death. The very raw image of him lying motionless on the floor in his home has been engraved in my memories. At random moments, that image will show up in my mind and I will be in state of sadness. It comes and goes randomly but after months, the frequencies reduced as well.
From then onwards till present day, W has been working from home completely and not heading back to work. And because of the pandemic, she had also reduced the frequency of heading out for dinner with friends and colleagues. She also recently invited me to play mahjong with her colleagues on weekends too. I love playing MJ by the way so most times I will gladly oblige.
In the middle of June, she asked me for a loan to get braces for her teeth as it is affecting her quality of life; she has a serious case of overbite and she can't chew food properly for decades. She joked about paying me back 500 bucks a month (the loan was 8k) but I can tell she wasn't serious. I fell into her trap and I gave her the money. Not expecting her to return it to me. Her attitude towards me soften and she started to engage me more frequently. As we have a tenant that is moving out at the end of the year, the W is planning to move the kids to the spare room. That sets me thinking; why would she want to move the kids to another room and leave me and her in the master bedroom? Till this day I still don't have the answer and being the pessimistic person that I am, I feel that nothing is going to change at all. She will most probably still be sleeping by herself. But on the bright side, I have the full queen size bed for myself!
2 days ago was our wedding anniversary. I didn't do anything for her at all; not even cards and flowers. I just spent the day like any other day; busy with the kids and work, busy with preparing dinner, etc etc.
And because of the guilt, I've made another boo boo again. She was talking about getting an ergonomic chair (even though she already had 2) and I got her another one. She did transferred me the money but i returned the transfer and written reference as "wedding anniversary and birthday gift". I was expecting that she will reverse it again and there it is. It happened! She reversed the transfer and said "no need".
I had enough. I made up my mind back there and then that I will tell her in her face that it's a gift and stop the shifting of funds. Thankfully I took a deep breath and didn't do it because I don't see a point (not the hill I want to die on). So I am transferring this frustration into venting on this forum. Almost everyday I've been thinking of pulling the trigger (D) myself because I simply cannot imagine myself living in this state forever. I feel like throwing the towel and go separate ways. Kids will definitely suffer but I guess I will have to work doubly hard to patch that gap as a single parent.
I thought I was detaching very well because during these months, I did not engage her in any R talks as well. I was cordial and supportive in the household. I minded my own business for most parts. That being said, I can see pockets of my wrongdoing. I'm just not doing DB perfectly.
I need some 2x4s now. I'm really on the verge to confront her about the gift incident. For once I feel like I want to tell her in the face how I'm feeling. I also want to initiate divorce talks because I simply can't stand it any longer. It's been almost 3 years.
The reason why I was gone for so long is because my father passed away a few hours after getting his 1st covid shot. It was shocking and I was totally crushed by his passing.
Prior to that dreaded day, I did have a short conversation with the W on what were the future plans. I was on the false assumption that she had soften because she was engaging me more than ever, and behaving like it was pre bomb drop. Boy was I wrong big time. She said she likes the current situation; in house separation (I sleep with the kids while she sleeps by herself on another bed in the same room, no intimacy, basically roommates, etc)
And then when my father passed on, I just broke down completely. I felt like I've lost the most pillar of my life. I have no one else to prove to, I have no reasons to keep up with the facade. Nonetheless, I've tried to be there for the kids. To be honest, the kids were there to help me thru the grief instead. They are young and they only talked about the fun times they have with grandpa and kept telling me he's in heaven now. They really pulled me thru the darkest times. W was there to support in any capacity she can, helping to take care of the kids, doing what she can to assist in the funeral, etc. I was grateful and I personally thanked her for it.
I'm still on therapy and processing my father's death. The very raw image of him lying motionless on the floor in his home has been engraved in my memories. At random moments, that image will show up in my mind and I will be in state of sadness. It comes and goes randomly but after months, the frequencies reduced as well.
From then onwards till present day, W has been working from home completely and not heading back to work. And because of the pandemic, she had also reduced the frequency of heading out for dinner with friends and colleagues. She also recently invited me to play mahjong with her colleagues on weekends too. I love playing MJ by the way so most times I will gladly oblige.
In the middle of June, she asked me for a loan to get braces for her teeth as it is affecting her quality of life; she has a serious case of overbite and she can't chew food properly for decades. She joked about paying me back 500 bucks a month (the loan was 8k) but I can tell she wasn't serious. I fell into her trap and I gave her the money. Not expecting her to return it to me. Her attitude towards me soften and she started to engage me more frequently. As we have a tenant that is moving out at the end of the year, the W is planning to move the kids to the spare room. That sets me thinking; why would she want to move the kids to another room and leave me and her in the master bedroom? Till this day I still don't have the answer and being the pessimistic person that I am, I feel that nothing is going to change at all. She will most probably still be sleeping by herself. But on the bright side, I have the full queen size bed for myself!
2 days ago was our wedding anniversary. I didn't do anything for her at all; not even cards and flowers. I just spent the day like any other day; busy with the kids and work, busy with preparing dinner, etc etc.
And because of the guilt, I've made another boo boo again. She was talking about getting an ergonomic chair (even though she already had 2) and I got her another one. She did transferred me the money but i returned the transfer and written reference as "wedding anniversary and birthday gift". I was expecting that she will reverse it again and there it is. It happened! She reversed the transfer and said "no need".
I had enough. I made up my mind back there and then that I will tell her in her face that it's a gift and stop the shifting of funds. Thankfully I took a deep breath and didn't do it because I don't see a point (not the hill I want to die on). So I am transferring this frustration into venting on this forum. Almost everyday I've been thinking of pulling the trigger (D) myself because I simply cannot imagine myself living in this state forever. I feel like throwing the towel and go separate ways. Kids will definitely suffer but I guess I will have to work doubly hard to patch that gap as a single parent.
I thought I was detaching very well because during these months, I did not engage her in any R talks as well. I was cordial and supportive in the household. I minded my own business for most parts. That being said, I can see pockets of my wrongdoing. I'm just not doing DB perfectly.
I need some 2x4s now. I'm really on the verge to confront her about the gift incident. For once I feel like I want to tell her in the face how I'm feeling. I also want to initiate divorce talks because I simply can't stand it any longer. It's been almost 3 years.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 05:23 AM
Hi AK. So sorry for your loss. Losing a parent is hard…doubly so when it is so sudden.
RE: confronting your W about the gift. I’m unclear as to why there needs to be a confrontation. First off…why would you get her an anniversary gift when she BD you almost three years ago? Did you think it might change her mind or change your situation somehow? I think she thought that was your motive which is why she paid you back for it. She didn’t want to be beholden to you for a gift she didn’t want you to get her. You say you got it for her out of guilt? Why would you have guilt? It’s been three years.
I don’t know if it has been suggested to you to read No More Mr Nice Guy but your probably should…especially the part about “covert contracts”. You know…when you do something for someone with a hidden expectation that they will respond a certain way and when they don’t, you get mad. Doing things for other people and expecting something from them in return, is a recipe for being chronically disappointed. Better to have no expectations so that when people do react favourably, you are pleasantly surprised.
Remember… DB isn’t to get your wife back. It’s for you to to detach and rediscover who you were before you were married. It gives you the best chance of saving your marriage (because no one wants to be with someone who appears needy) and, at the same time, give you the best chance of saving yourself regardless of your marital status.
RE: your kids. Kids are pretty resilient. I’m with you though…my preference was always to give my kids an upbringing in a two-parent home. It is definitely the ideal. But…it only takes one person to decide to take that away so you may not have any choice in the matter. Ultimately, they will take their cues from you and if they see that you are happy and your W is happy, they will adjust to the new normal.
Best of luck!
RE: confronting your W about the gift. I’m unclear as to why there needs to be a confrontation. First off…why would you get her an anniversary gift when she BD you almost three years ago? Did you think it might change her mind or change your situation somehow? I think she thought that was your motive which is why she paid you back for it. She didn’t want to be beholden to you for a gift she didn’t want you to get her. You say you got it for her out of guilt? Why would you have guilt? It’s been three years.
I don’t know if it has been suggested to you to read No More Mr Nice Guy but your probably should…especially the part about “covert contracts”. You know…when you do something for someone with a hidden expectation that they will respond a certain way and when they don’t, you get mad. Doing things for other people and expecting something from them in return, is a recipe for being chronically disappointed. Better to have no expectations so that when people do react favourably, you are pleasantly surprised.
Remember… DB isn’t to get your wife back. It’s for you to to detach and rediscover who you were before you were married. It gives you the best chance of saving your marriage (because no one wants to be with someone who appears needy) and, at the same time, give you the best chance of saving yourself regardless of your marital status.
RE: your kids. Kids are pretty resilient. I’m with you though…my preference was always to give my kids an upbringing in a two-parent home. It is definitely the ideal. But…it only takes one person to decide to take that away so you may not have any choice in the matter. Ultimately, they will take their cues from you and if they see that you are happy and your W is happy, they will adjust to the new normal.
Best of luck!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 05:34 AM
Thanks for responding DV6. The guilt comes from the fact that she gave me a birthday present earlier this year I would like to reciprocate it
I've read the NGS book. I am having NGS and I have a high conflict avoidance issue. I'm having anxiety attack for the past hours and I really want to tell her that I'm hurt by this action. And I also want to tell her to let me know what her plans are so we can move on.
This was also at the advice of my therapist a couple of weeks but I've been putting it off until today. Living without any clarity really [censored] big time. On one end I want to end things so I can be free of this suffering, on the other end I want the family intact because of the kids. But that will be at the expense of my mental health.
The conflict avoidance in me is making me standing still. No action will I dare to take. I can almost see that I will end up like her father who is also in this situation for decades with her mother. Runs in the family I guess.
So I guess, should let this go and go back to improving my detachment and get rid of the covert contracts issues? Or should I go guns blazing and let it (emotions, resentments, etc) rip?
I've read the NGS book. I am having NGS and I have a high conflict avoidance issue. I'm having anxiety attack for the past hours and I really want to tell her that I'm hurt by this action. And I also want to tell her to let me know what her plans are so we can move on.
This was also at the advice of my therapist a couple of weeks but I've been putting it off until today. Living without any clarity really [censored] big time. On one end I want to end things so I can be free of this suffering, on the other end I want the family intact because of the kids. But that will be at the expense of my mental health.
The conflict avoidance in me is making me standing still. No action will I dare to take. I can almost see that I will end up like her father who is also in this situation for decades with her mother. Runs in the family I guess.
So I guess, should let this go and go back to improving my detachment and get rid of the covert contracts issues? Or should I go guns blazing and let it (emotions, resentments, etc) rip?
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Akuei
I'm having anxiety attack for the past hours and I really want to tell her that I'm hurt by this action. Or should I go guns blazing and let it (emotions, resentments, etc) rip?
GIFT - (Noun) - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.
It seems like you expected "compensation" for this gift--even if it was as simple as her accepting a "wedding anniversary present" when she's told you she's no longer your wife. That sounds more like a covert contract than a gift. Yes, work out your anger, hurt, disappointment, etc.--on a stress ball, on a treadmill, on a mountain top. The marriage is over. Yelling at her doesn't make sense. She told you it was over years ago. It also doesn't do anything positive for your co-parenting relationship.
Originally Posted by Akuei
The guilt comes from the fact that she gave me a birthday present earlier this year I would like to reciprocate it
Originally Posted by Akuei
I also want to tell her to let me know what her plans are so we can move on.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 08:10 AM
Many thanks for the reality check CW. I'm very sure I've been doing things wrong and expecting the wrong things but I can't seem to rationalize it.
You've made it so much clearer. There's nothing to confront. I wanted to gift her and was expecting a thanks. That's a mistake. I shouldn't harp on the fact that she doesn't do what I expect her to do. I can only control myself.
She mentioned the D word sometime in the middle of last year, alluded to D in feb this year. But I see no effort in her wanting to move things along. Heck, she's even trying to plan future stuff with me like getting furnitures for the kids, renovating the house, moving to a bigger apartment, yada yada. All these in my mind were like cake eating. I am to blame myself for indulging her too by going along with the flow. I should have stopped it and not get myself involved in her fantasy planning.
I have to do better. I must sort out myself and get rid of all sorts of expectations and then will decide whether I should continue this way or move on. I want to have control of my life. When i re-read my post about asking her to tell me about her plans; I really want to punch myself. Once again I'm letting her control my destiny.
Again. Thanks for the 2x4s. Really needed it.
You've made it so much clearer. There's nothing to confront. I wanted to gift her and was expecting a thanks. That's a mistake. I shouldn't harp on the fact that she doesn't do what I expect her to do. I can only control myself.
She mentioned the D word sometime in the middle of last year, alluded to D in feb this year. But I see no effort in her wanting to move things along. Heck, she's even trying to plan future stuff with me like getting furnitures for the kids, renovating the house, moving to a bigger apartment, yada yada. All these in my mind were like cake eating. I am to blame myself for indulging her too by going along with the flow. I should have stopped it and not get myself involved in her fantasy planning.
I have to do better. I must sort out myself and get rid of all sorts of expectations and then will decide whether I should continue this way or move on. I want to have control of my life. When i re-read my post about asking her to tell me about her plans; I really want to punch myself. Once again I'm letting her control my destiny.
Again. Thanks for the 2x4s. Really needed it.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 11:23 AM
AKuei,
Welcome back. I'm very sorry about your father's passing. That must be incredibly difficult. Definitely sending my thoughts and prayers your way.
The current setup is working for her, but is it for you? Doesn't sound like a good situation for you. It's been a long time...3 years. How much longer are you living to live like this?
I don't like the idea of you giving her a lot of money to improve herself. She wants to leave you. let her figure it out herself. Maybe she wants the overbite fixed for her new man or to meet a new man.
You say you didn't do anything for the wedding anniversary in the first sentence, and then you say you bought her an ergonomic chair she wanted and told her it was for the anniversary. She explicitly told you she didn't want a gift or even an acknologlement of the date. She's being very clear. Unfortunately it [censored] and it's not what you want, but she's being clear.
You don't need to confront her. A big DB item on this board is no confrontations or arguments. You both know where you stand. Act accordingly.
She knows how you feel. And you know how she feels.
You do not need to talk to her to initiate a divorce. You can simply do it. 3 years is a long time. Sounds like you've been standing long enough you can know in your mind you gave it your best.
Welcome back. I'm very sorry about your father's passing. That must be incredibly difficult. Definitely sending my thoughts and prayers your way.
Originally Posted by AKuei
She said she likes the current situation; in house separation (I sleep with the kids while she sleeps by herself on another bed in the same room, no intimacy, basically roommates, etc)
Originally Posted by AKuei
In the middle of June, she asked me for a loan to get braces for her teeth as it is affecting her quality of life; she has a serious case of overbite and she can't chew food properly for decades. She joked about paying me back 500 bucks a month (the loan was 8k) but I can tell she wasn't serious. I fell into her trap and I gave her the money.
Originally Posted by AKuei
2 days ago was our wedding anniversary. I didn't do anything for her at all; not even cards and flowers. I just spent the day like any other day; busy with the kids and work, busy with preparing dinner, etc etc. And because of the guilt, I've made another boo boo again. She was talking about getting an ergonomic chair (even though she already had 2) and I got her another one. She did transferred me the money but i returned the transfer and written reference as "wedding anniversary and birthday gift". I was expecting that she will reverse it again and there it is. It happened! She reversed the transfer and said "no need".
Originally Posted by AKuei
I thought I was detaching very well because during these months, I did not engage her in any R talks as well. I was cordial and supportive in the household. I minded my own business for most parts. That being said, I can see pockets of my wrongdoing. I'm just not doing DB perfectly.
Good. Keep in mind just because you were DB'ing well doesn't mean you'll get the result you want. As they say here, drop expectations. Your update comes across as still doing things with expectations.
[quote=AKuei]I'm really on the verge to confront her about the gift incident.
Good. Keep in mind just because you were DB'ing well doesn't mean you'll get the result you want. As they say here, drop expectations. Your update comes across as still doing things with expectations.
[quote=AKuei]I'm really on the verge to confront her about the gift incident.
Originally Posted by AKuei
For once I feel like I want to tell her in the face how I'm feeling.
Originally Posted by AKuei
I also want to initiate divorce talks because I simply can't stand it any longer. It's been almost 3 years.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 01:01 PM
Akuei, sorry for the sudden loss of your father. How awful, my heart goes out to you. Please take the time for self-care necessary to grieve your loss.
IHS is difficult. I have never claimed otherwise. I have merely said that IHS CAN work. After all, that is the path my situation took. (Note: For those that disagree with this, fine. That dead horse has been beaten.) What makes it so difficult is the things you are struggling with. Special days, celebrations, etc. In my case I too struggled. We had Valentine's Day, and her birthday during the meat of our situation. I tried to keep it low-key and still "recognize" the day. For V-Day I got her a spa gift cert. For her birthday we did a family dinner, and had my daughter pick out a gift and give it to her.
But IHS is a struggle, and there a lot of temptations to break from good DBing. I tried to be easy on myself and realize I wasn't going to DB 100%, but I tried to get as close to 100% as I could. LOTS OF GAL. I had to stay busy, and out of the house as much as possible. I can not over emphasize the importance of GAL. When you do GAL well the rest of DBing falls into place easier. GAL usually includes self-improvements so they tend to come along for the GAL ride. But detachment becomes a lot easier when you stay busy. Your interaction with your IHS WAS will become less frequent. And that will help you stay detached in the more limited interactions you have.
As far as the gift, if she insists on reimbursing you, just let it go. Likely she is feeling guilty about not reciprocating now (anniversary) or in the future (your birthday). She is trying to let herself off the hook, so let her! Remember, a properly detached individual would just let it go, and not expect reciprocity in the future.
Akeui, you always have it in your power to decide it is not working for you, and to pull the plug yourself. Remember, kids would rather be from a broken than IN a broken home. If you don't think that IHS is rough on the kids, you would be mistaken. This is affecting them more than you know, and could have an impact on their own future relationships.
Onward and upward, Akeui! You've got this!
IHS is difficult. I have never claimed otherwise. I have merely said that IHS CAN work. After all, that is the path my situation took. (Note: For those that disagree with this, fine. That dead horse has been beaten.) What makes it so difficult is the things you are struggling with. Special days, celebrations, etc. In my case I too struggled. We had Valentine's Day, and her birthday during the meat of our situation. I tried to keep it low-key and still "recognize" the day. For V-Day I got her a spa gift cert. For her birthday we did a family dinner, and had my daughter pick out a gift and give it to her.
But IHS is a struggle, and there a lot of temptations to break from good DBing. I tried to be easy on myself and realize I wasn't going to DB 100%, but I tried to get as close to 100% as I could. LOTS OF GAL. I had to stay busy, and out of the house as much as possible. I can not over emphasize the importance of GAL. When you do GAL well the rest of DBing falls into place easier. GAL usually includes self-improvements so they tend to come along for the GAL ride. But detachment becomes a lot easier when you stay busy. Your interaction with your IHS WAS will become less frequent. And that will help you stay detached in the more limited interactions you have.
As far as the gift, if she insists on reimbursing you, just let it go. Likely she is feeling guilty about not reciprocating now (anniversary) or in the future (your birthday). She is trying to let herself off the hook, so let her! Remember, a properly detached individual would just let it go, and not expect reciprocity in the future.
Akeui, you always have it in your power to decide it is not working for you, and to pull the plug yourself. Remember, kids would rather be from a broken than IN a broken home. If you don't think that IHS is rough on the kids, you would be mistaken. This is affecting them more than you know, and could have an impact on their own future relationships.
Onward and upward, Akeui! You've got this!
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
When i re-read my post about asking her to tell me about her plans; I really want to punch myself. Once again I'm letting her control my destiny.
AK I think we all want to punch ourselves when we think back on how we acted after bomb drop. When I think back it makes me so mad I want to punch myself in the dick. You should have stuck with the board to avoid most of those mistakes.
First and foremost you can't nice her back by paying for her braces or buying her chairs. Never has worked and never will work it will actually do the opposite and she will lose more respect from you.
Now you have young kids so if you want to stand that do so with zero expectations that she will return to the marriage. Your focus should be 100% on your children and yourself.
My guess is she is slowly planning her exit strategy probably waiting for the pandemic to end or until she latches onto another male.
Your best chance at reconciliation would be to tell her that this situation isn't working for you anymore separating and go start living a kick a$$ life. No one ever chooses this scenario so that is why there is so very few recons here. Most of the recons here are due to the fantasy blowing up.
She's very comfortable now calling the shots, having her own bed and playing house. That needs to change AK if you want things to improve. Things have to get worse before they get better.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/10/21 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by AKuei
The reason why I was gone for so long is because my father passed away a few hours after getting his 1st covid shot. It was shocking and I was totally crushed by his passing.
Originally Posted by LH19
Your best chance at reconciliation would be to tell her that this situation isn't working for you anymore.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/13/21 01:44 AM
I took a break from my computer over the weekend and GAL to the fullest. I've recently bought a foldable bike and was only doing casual cycling around the neighbourhood.
Last Sunday I took a leap of faith and went for a 40KM ride up a hill with my neighbours and his group. It was extremely challenging (they were on road bikes which made it easier to go uphill) yet satisfying. Fun? Not really. But I would love to do it again simply because I can temporarily put my mind off the W's situation.
And on the same day, I managed to finally teach my D7 to ride a bicycle without trainer wheels! She's so talented and only after 2 lessons she got it! Damn proud of her!
To answer to BL's question:
- I'm pretty sure I'm very close to throwing the towel and stop allowing myself to live in such a situation. It's the constant mental pressure about the ambiguity that is really putting a strain to my mind. Everyday the urge to call it quits get stronger. But when I look at my kids, I will put my decision on hold. Tough call to make but I hope 1 day i will get my balls back and make the choice that I want.
- Meeting a new man or not doesn't concern me anymore. I've been assuming she already is having an A even I do not have concrete evidence. The pandemic isn't helping her to meet up with the AP as much as she would like I guess
- I held my tongue and did not confront her. You're right. She's made it known that she doesn't want gifts for wedding anniversary and birthdays. The only hurdle I'm facing is that she got me birthday presents this year and got the kids to pass it to me. Her birthday's next month. My plan is to reciprocate that and have the kids pick the presents and give it to her. Nothing too fancy. Please shoot down my idea if it's a bad one
To LH:
- I'm been trying my very best to have 0 expectations on whatever things related to her. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I guess my progression is slower than the others. But I'm certain I'm getting somewhere. To be honest, after so many months of mental torture, I now see her more and more repulsive; my therapist told me that I find her repulsive because it's sort of my subconscious telling me I'm repulsed by myself. Sort of like the W is a mirror of who I am deep within. Still trying to decipher what she meant though
- I fully agree that things needs to get worst before it can get better. Even after so much time has elapsed, I still think I need more time to reach a tipping point; waiting for the final straw to break the camel's back
R2C:
- My dad was my #1 hero. He was the breadwinner in the family, sacrificing his best years to provide for the kids. I picked up his patience because my mom was the strong headed one; her way or the highway. Prior to his passing, I was talking to him about how mom treated him when they were younger. She was roughly behaving the same as my W and he just told her to leave the house but the kids will stay with him. She left for a few months but came back and the rest of history. Throughout my childhood, I've witnessed a fair share of quarrels and squabbles but like older generations, they stuck it out thru thick and thin. My mom eventually passed away back in 2015 due to cancer. I'm technically an ophan now. Lost the most important pillar in my life. he thought me a lot on how to be a proper human being. I really miss him.
- About deciding to call it quits, I don't want to rush it thru and will take my time to come to a decision. I'm sorry for taking it slow even though the more I delay, the more my mind is crumbling.
And yeah, 3 years has been a long time (for me I guess). Hope is see light at the end of the tunnel soon. I really want to live a kick-A$$ life with or without her.
Last Sunday I took a leap of faith and went for a 40KM ride up a hill with my neighbours and his group. It was extremely challenging (they were on road bikes which made it easier to go uphill) yet satisfying. Fun? Not really. But I would love to do it again simply because I can temporarily put my mind off the W's situation.
And on the same day, I managed to finally teach my D7 to ride a bicycle without trainer wheels! She's so talented and only after 2 lessons she got it! Damn proud of her!
To answer to BL's question:
- I'm pretty sure I'm very close to throwing the towel and stop allowing myself to live in such a situation. It's the constant mental pressure about the ambiguity that is really putting a strain to my mind. Everyday the urge to call it quits get stronger. But when I look at my kids, I will put my decision on hold. Tough call to make but I hope 1 day i will get my balls back and make the choice that I want.
- Meeting a new man or not doesn't concern me anymore. I've been assuming she already is having an A even I do not have concrete evidence. The pandemic isn't helping her to meet up with the AP as much as she would like I guess
- I held my tongue and did not confront her. You're right. She's made it known that she doesn't want gifts for wedding anniversary and birthdays. The only hurdle I'm facing is that she got me birthday presents this year and got the kids to pass it to me. Her birthday's next month. My plan is to reciprocate that and have the kids pick the presents and give it to her. Nothing too fancy. Please shoot down my idea if it's a bad one
To LH:
- I'm been trying my very best to have 0 expectations on whatever things related to her. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I guess my progression is slower than the others. But I'm certain I'm getting somewhere. To be honest, after so many months of mental torture, I now see her more and more repulsive; my therapist told me that I find her repulsive because it's sort of my subconscious telling me I'm repulsed by myself. Sort of like the W is a mirror of who I am deep within. Still trying to decipher what she meant though
- I fully agree that things needs to get worst before it can get better. Even after so much time has elapsed, I still think I need more time to reach a tipping point; waiting for the final straw to break the camel's back
R2C:
- My dad was my #1 hero. He was the breadwinner in the family, sacrificing his best years to provide for the kids. I picked up his patience because my mom was the strong headed one; her way or the highway. Prior to his passing, I was talking to him about how mom treated him when they were younger. She was roughly behaving the same as my W and he just told her to leave the house but the kids will stay with him. She left for a few months but came back and the rest of history. Throughout my childhood, I've witnessed a fair share of quarrels and squabbles but like older generations, they stuck it out thru thick and thin. My mom eventually passed away back in 2015 due to cancer. I'm technically an ophan now. Lost the most important pillar in my life. he thought me a lot on how to be a proper human being. I really miss him.
- About deciding to call it quits, I don't want to rush it thru and will take my time to come to a decision. I'm sorry for taking it slow even though the more I delay, the more my mind is crumbling.
And yeah, 3 years has been a long time (for me I guess). Hope is see light at the end of the tunnel soon. I really want to live a kick-A$$ life with or without her.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/14/21 02:16 AM
AKuei,
Awesome update with the cycling excursion! Exercise & meeting people...sounds like great GAL. Plus teaching D7 to ride a bike...that must've been a proud dad moment :-)
It has to be wearing on you. I was there as well, and know what you're going through. You have to make that decision. No one here can make it for you.
I hear you. It's tough on the kids, no doubt. I hate my kids are going through this. However, your kids are seeing what their mom staying out all night and sleeping in another bed looks like. Is that what you want?
Don't hope. Just do! Maybe getting your balls back will start making her think...
Good decision. Why "confront" her and cause a fight? It won't help you or your sitch.
Others cane weigh in here, but it she had the kids buy you a birthday gift it seems like returning the gesture is reasonable. Like they say in War Games, a "proportional response". Just keep it modest and make sure it's what the kids pick to give...don't buy a lavish gift trying to buy her back.
I'm a year and a half, so can't imagine 3 years. It must be trying. Hang in there...you'll get through it!
Awesome update with the cycling excursion! Exercise & meeting people...sounds like great GAL. Plus teaching D7 to ride a bike...that must've been a proud dad moment :-)
Originally Posted by AKuei
- I'm pretty sure I'm very close to throwing the towel and stop allowing myself to live in such a situation. It's the constant mental pressure about the ambiguity that is really putting a strain to my mind. Everyday the urge to call it quits get stronger.
Originally Posted by AKuei
But when I look at my kids, I will put my decisionon hold.
Originally Posted by AKuei
Tough call to make but I hope 1 day i will get my balls back and make the choice that I want.
Originally Posted by AKuei
I held my tongue and did not confront her. You're right. She's made it known that she doesn't want gifts for wedding anniversary and birthdays.
Originally Posted by AKuei
The only hurdle I'm facing is that she got me birthday presents this year and got the kids to pass it to me. Her birthday's next month. My plan is to reciprocate that and have the kids pick the presents and give it to her. Nothing too fancy. Please shoot down my idea if it's a bad one
Originally Posted by AKuei
And yeah, 3 years has been a long time (for me I guess). Hope is see light at the end of the tunnel soon. I really want to live a kick-A$$ life with or without her.
Re: Need advice on stubborn W part 2 - 09/14/21 12:00 PM
AKeui, great update. Love it. GAL is your fastest path to recovery.