I am not detached, Pack19 part4

[Pack_19]

link to previous thread https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...amp;Number=2903232&nt=10&page=11

[Pack_19]

Hi all! thanks for the comments on the school, I will take it easy on him.

I had a terrible day yesterday, my best friend told me he saw W a couple of times with OM on the streets, all my friends were very shocked that it affected me a lot but I tried to not make many questions, I called my sister to relax and then went for a long walk.

When we exchanged the kids I asked W where she stood in terms of us, she gave S7 youtube on the phone and stood there telling me again that I had destroy our M for five years, that she was never going to come back to me and that she could make a mistake but her decision was final and she had accepted she was going to live a life without the father of her children there. I told her I understood her pain and frustration but I saw things differently and I still thought we could work together to get a second chance on a new M. To this she replied that she wanted a D. As we were chatting S7 came out of the car to tell her OM had called her 4 times and asking who he was.

I tried to stay calm but I lost it, I asked her who that was and why she did not have the courage to ask for a D before starting a R. She said it was just a friend, that I had jealousy issues and that for any person in her life she was not going to give me any explanations. I told her if this is how she wanted to end things it was fine for me but I never wanted this and saw S and D very differently. I stormed out with the kids and asked my sister to help me with them. I got them ready for bed and prepared the backpacks, put them to sleep after a nice story and I have spent the worst night in many months. I have not slept a bit thinking about what to do next, how to regain control of my life and how to face the fact that there is OM.

I want to file, but I am a bunch of nerves right now so I wanted to come and write here and ask for support. I have gone through hell and she keeps saying that I destroyed our M and there are consequences in the form of her lack of feelings. Sometimes I feel like I am a very sad man, all my friends keep telling me to see the evidence, move on and close this chapter of my life and yet I think about the rules, about W saying cr@p right now, about not giving up and showing my children our family is worth the fight but aside from W and her OMs. I dont compare myself with OM, I dont want to know anything about him, I just feel it is very sad this is the course of action she has decided to take after all we have lived.

I woke up today with a different mood, I had to be happy for my kids but now alone in the office all is coming back onto me. I will talk to my lawyer today, I feel like the best is to file. I know I messed up big time yesterday, I will go back to NC and my PIES. Thank you all for your support and time!

hugs! Pack

[Pack_19]

Oh sorry I forgot to mention in my update. W went on and on again on how I want to punish her we cannot talk about the kids. She told me the kids are number 1 for her and she wants me to get to a point where I accept we will never be together but we can talk about the kids and how things are going at home so the other can adapt. I told her I understood where she was coming from but I could not offer that and she said she was giving me the space because I still think about R. She also mentioned I dont have to change for her because she simply knows she will never be happy with me.

About those conversations and sharing everything about the kids, I feel like for my own detachment it is better not to have them. Am I being reasonable about this or should I sacrifice for the sake of the kids and try and be friends with her on that sense? I just think of her and OM and I want to be away, very far, and take my kids with me. Must be the oain speaking, I need to think about what I can control now in my sitch.

[BenB]

It seems you forget everything you have read and learned under pressure. If your friends were shocked how it affected you I wonder what your reaction was in front of them. And even though you weren't near your W you still said all those things to her the moment you met her. It's as though you have been reading up on how to destroy even the slightest chance you might have on a possible future relationship with someone who leaves you.

I mean Pack, by all means go back to NC and work on you because that is all you should and can do, but please stop talking about not giving up! Please stop mentioning the rules because you break those rules over and over and over again.

Even if you had been cool, calm and collected in every interaction with her, even if you had been a perfect example on what one should do when DBing correctly, it could have taken a long time before she believed those changes and even then, as you know, she may not have changed her mind. But instead you have pushed and pressured her so many times now that I don't know what else anyone can say to you.

I really wish you the best and I am happy to hear you have friends who support you but please listen to them and move on. Forget about the one sentence you are holding on to from Sandi's list of rules "never give up". That's only applicable if you do everything else correct.

[sandi2]

Hi Pack, sorry to hear about your setback. I think this may be what we call a "trigger". Something is said or done to bring back those old feelings at the beginning of the sitch. As I recall, this has happened once before and you asked her about her intentions.

I don't fully understand just what your W wants to discuss about the kids. Unless there is something about their schedule, health, school, etc., why is it necessary? At any rate, I still feel that email is the way to handle it. At least, until you are able to emotionally let go of reconciling with her.

Am I being reasonable about this or should I sacrifice for the sake of the kids and try and be friends with her on that sense?

Paco, don't listen to her. She always criticizes you deeply. She doesn't want to have talks about the children.....for their sakes. She wants to have the talks for her sake. Remember, since the beginning, she was the one who pushed to have regular discussions. I think she uses the kids as an excuse to keep a line attached to you, not b/c she wants to be in a MR with you, but to keep tabs on your life. It's difficult for me to explain, but I see it in WW all the time.

I have gone through hell and she keeps saying that I destroyed our M and there are consequences in the form of her lack of feelings.

B/c you let her words affect you. She has a sharp tongue and can shred your heart. She has taken no share of the responsibility of the marriage breakdown. It's seldom all one-sided.

yet I think about the rules, about W saying cr@p right now, about not giving up and showing my children our family is worth the fight but aside from W and her OMs.

The "rules" were written to help newcomers have some sense of direction and interaction in their sitch.

Your children are too young to know or understand about the concept of the family being worth the fight. This is your guilt talking to you, b/c you've taken 100% ownership for the M breakdown. You've taken to heart everything your W has said, except one thing. Know what that one thing is? You don't accept she is through with you and doesn't want to be in a marriage with you.

For your own sake, I hope you will let it go. I think you've done an amazing job in all areas of improving your life. Just imagine how much better you would feel if your were free from the shackles holding you to a lost dream.

((hugs))

[Pack_19]

hi BenB!

I just got sad and I guess they dont want to see me hurting. I am going to work on getting back my control and working on me. It is very hurtful to see the difference between S and D is not there and to hear over and over again that it was all your fault and that I am never going to be there because of my mistakes that have these consequences. I can focus on myself and my changes but I cannot change the fact that she is seeing OM and I need to feel the pain and let it go. I have an IC session tomorrow. I cannot believe I messed up something so important in my life.

I am going back to NC and focused on myself. I am thinking about getting the A2 license for motorbikes and I restart today my weight lifting routines. I was also thinking about reading DR again, maybe it gets me back to a healthy place.

I will do research on how to control my emotions. Should I believe what she is saying, file and move on or just be and work on getting me back to a nice and healthy place removing myself from the situation?

I know I have made many mistakes, I just wanted to save the kids and myself from all the pain we are experiencing. Thanks for bearing with me, please keep posting. I will re-read my thread today, time to dust off and stand back up.

[Pack_19]

Hi Pack, sorry to hear about your setback. I think this may be what we call a "trigger". Something is said or done to bring back those old feelings at the beginning of the sitch. As I recall, this has happened once before and you asked her about her intentions.

HI Sandi! thanks for coming over! ((hugs)) I had a big one yesterday and you cannot imagine the feeling when S7 walked out of the car holding the phone as OM was calling, I wanted to just get over her on a instant but it does not work like that. S7 is too young to understand anything. When we got home I showed him the lego guitar as I finally managed to make the software work and he was very happy. I saved the day for him and S2 but what a mess on my side.

I don't fully understand just what your W wants to discuss about the kids. Unless there is something about their schedule, health, school, etc., why is it necessary? At any rate, I still feel that email is the way to handle it. At least, until you are able to emotionally let go of reconciling with her.

She means to talk about how the are doing at school, the new things they do at home, how they behave, if anything happens to them. She told me that she does not do that because she knows I think about R and hence I see the conversation as a way to get to her and I was not able to put the kids first. I had to stop her there to tell her my children were priority 1 in my life and that did not involve sharing anything with her. She also said all I had done for 1.5 years was tell her she was a lousy mom and hence I had not changed a bit. I told her sometimes I do communicate in an aggressive way, I apologized and told her I never thought anything less than she was a great mother.

Did I blow this up Sandi? I dont think OM is going to fill the void in her, I also dont think she has done the work to look into herself and take the responsibility of her part. Her words were, I have accepted the father of my children will not be in my life and that is all your fault. But again I am not the person to show her this.

Paco, don't listen to her. She always criticizes you deeply. She doesn't want to have talks about the children.....for their sakes. She wants to have the talks for her sake. Remember, since the beginning, she was the one who pushed to have regular discussions. I think she uses the kids as an excuse to keep a line attached to you, not b/c she wants to be in a MR with you, but to keep tabs on your life. It's difficult for me to explain, but I see it in WW all the time.

I also get this feeling, like as if talking to me about the kids reinforces in her head that she is a great mom and that she is doing the best to keep our children happy. How is she ever going to realize her loss if the moment she wants to talk about the kids I run there and sit with open ears? Can you explain a bit more on this keeping a tab? Why? is it not obvious to her that she is wining this battle to move on? I dont think I will ever be able to be her friend, I dont want that, I am sorry if this affects my children negatively, someday they will understand. Just today, S7 asked me why I worked from home and not in an office anymore. I told him to be closer to them, and gave him a hug.

B/c you let her words affect you. She has a sharp tongue and can shred your heart. She has taken no share of the responsibility of the marriage breakdown. It's seldom all one-sided.

Try to tell her this and she will say you are calling her a liar, you do not understand her pain and never listened to her. She told me she had cried and been unhappy for the 5 years of our marriage and I never talked to her, I am just amazed how deeply she believes all of this is true. maybe this helps her see OM without any remorse. Thanks for the comment Sandi, sometimes I need someone to remind me this.

You don't accept she is through with you and doesn't want to be in a marriage with you.

For your own sake, I hope you will let it go. I think you've done an amazing job in all areas of improving your life. Just imagine how much better you would feel if your were free from the shackles holding you to a lost dream.

And in such a short time, maybe I would be better off by thinking I did not lose anything. You should have seen the sadness in her eyes but the certainty in her words when she said "I am sure we cannot be happy together, I have tried everything" and then she said "now you see me as your W but all 5 years we were M you did not". Sometimes I think she says these things only to hurt me, why else? Can she not see I am a shade of the man I was? I swear upon the many times I have fell that I was doing a good job at GAL and NC and focusing on the kids and my changes. Then she goes off to some guy, everybody sees them because Seville is tiny and I go back to feeling like a failure. What am I doing with my life? I have worth as a man, father and husband and someone will see it. Thanks for your support!

((hugs))
Pack

[sandi2]

She means to talk about how the are doing at school, the new things they do at home, how they behave, if anything happens to them.

Yeah, that's what married couples do.......have chit-chat about the kids that day. Sorry, but she wants what she wants from you and toss what she doesn't want. Maybe she feels somewhat insecure about her parenting skills, IDK. As I previously stated, I think it's just her way to keep her nose in your life....via the kids.

I had a big one yesterday and you cannot imagine the feeling when S7 walked out of the car holding the phone as OM was calling,

I saw one of my adult children go through that experience. It's awful.

She also said all I had done for 1.5 years was tell her she was a lousy mom and hence I had not changed a bit.

She talks out of both sides of her mouth, b/c she also told you not to change for her, b/c she wasn't going back to the M. Neither of you can communicate well with each other, due to the high emotional charge. She's still very angry and takes it out on you, by blaming you for all her unhappiness. It's not your job to make her happy! It never was!

Did I blow this up Sandi?

It depends on what you are working toward. Obviously, your conversation with her left no doubt that you are still waiting for her to decide to give the M another chance. So, if you were trying to not show your cards, you failed. Now what do you do going forward?

See Pack, you haven't let go, and until you drop that emotional rope you have tied to her.........you aren't going to be as happy as you could be if you let it go. Will it take a divorce for you to let go?

I dont think OM is going to fill the void in her, I also dont think she has done the work to look into herself and take the responsibility of her part. Her words were, I have accepted the father of my children will not be in my life and that is all your fault.

She says the same old cr@p every time. No, she's hasn't done any work. As long as she blames you for everything, she won't see the need for her own change. She may never have a change of heart. That's the realization you need to understand.

Can you explain a bit more on this keeping a tab? Why? is it not obvious to her that she is wining this battle to move on?

It's a strange thing about WW's. On one hand your W has contempt for you, while on the other hand she wants to keep a line attached. Women are curious and some are very nosey. If she doesn't hear through friends how you are doing or what you're doing......she'll go through the kids. She wants to know all about your personal life, and just you wait......when the kids get older, she'll be asking them all kind of questions about daddy. They are her link to find out if you are moving on, and if you are seeing another woman, or if you break down and cry in front of the kids. These are simply examples, and may not be any she would choose. If you read other threads, you'll often see the WW living with another man, yet wants to be friends with her LBH. That's what your W wants. But you can't be friends if she has such a hard heart against you.

Try to tell her this and she will say you are calling her a liar, you do not understand her pain and never listened to her. She told me she had cried and been unhappy for the 5 years of our marriage and I never talked to her, I am just amazed how deeply she believes all of this is true. maybe this helps her see OM without any remorse.

She doesn't miss many opportunities to repeat this same old narrative. Aren't you sick of it? Let me tell you, there's some people in this world that just won't turn lose of their resentment and their version of what really happened. There's NOTHING you can do to change her mind. I've tried to tell you that you can't become good enough to win her back, b/c that's not the problem. The problem is her mindset........her hard heart. She chooses to have this mindset. Do you understand what I'm saying? She has chosen to not accept any responsibility and by blaming you for 5 years of unhappiness, she feels justified to see Om and to continue to give you hell. Hatred does terrible things to people.

You should have seen the sadness in her eyes but the certainty in her words when she said "I am sure we cannot be happy together, I have tried everything" and then she said "now you see me as your W but all 5 years we were M you did not".

Was it sadness or something else? I'd guess it's more self pity, but I might be wrong. The things she said in this quote backs up what I said just above it. Look Pack, she is punishing you. She's paying you back for those 5 yrs. She's not going to turn lose of this attitude anytime soon.......if ever. It's her choice to hold this anger in her heart, and claim she did everything. How could she have done everything and you had no idea she was planning to leave the M? It's crazy talk.

I swear upon the many times I have fell that I was doing a good job at GAL and NC and focusing on the kids and my changes. Then she goes off to some guy, everybody sees them because Seville is tiny and I go back to feeling like a failure.

Do you want to know what you did wrong? You GAL, went NC (sort of), and made changes to win your W back. That's why you feel like a failure when she turns to OM. This entire time you've done all this hard work for one reason..........to get your W back. You missed all the times we tried to tell you that it won't work if your motivation is to win her back. You GAL, NC, focus on kids, etc.......... for Pack. It's for Pack's happiness and betterment.......b/c you can't be good enough to win someone who refuses to like you. You just can't. You become a slave to the endeavor of changing for them. How exhausting that must be for you!

Until you give it up and genuinely live your life the way you want........you will remain a slave to the past mistakes. As long as you seek validation from your W, you will feel a failure. Why are you giving her that power to determine those things in your life? Okay, so she feels you were a lousy H. That's her problem at this time. You can do nothing about the past. You certainly can't change her mind. It's up to her. So, leave it alone and move on with having a life that pleases you.

I believe you misunderstood some of the techniques of DBing from the start, and I haven't been able to get you to see differently. So how do you think you can get her to change how she thinks?

You can't work on this MR b/c it's dead and the two of you are living separate lives. All you can do is work on your life without her. Until you understand that point, I don't think there is hope for a R. You have to let her go.

DBing is not a guarantee of saving the M. Nothing is a guarantee, b/c there are two people who have free volition.


((hugs))

[Pack_19]

Yeah, that's what married couples do.......have chit-chat about the kids that day. Sorry, but she wants what she wants from you and toss what she doesn't want. Maybe she feels somewhat insecure about her parenting skills, IDK. As I previously stated, I think it's just her way to keep her nose in your life....via the kids.

Hi Sandi, as always your advice gives me both strength and a slap of reality. Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I will process it deep inside my head. This is exactly how I feel about these conversations, is something you have when you are married. She continues to claim I never talked to her when we were married and honestly I am starting to believe it is true. Was I too focused on my career and making money? did I miss on having bed chats with her? Is that because I was not happy or because our marriage was lacking? I know these questions dont help me, all I can do is become a better communicator and I am working on that day and night.

I saw one of my adult children go through that experience. It's awful.

I lost it, my heart went race mode and I started asking her who that was and how she could have the moral to start a relationship before we are divorced (10 points for old Pack...). I must have looked like a desperate idiot. I am going running now before starting work to get my head in a better place. This will not happen again, I need to be a rock for my children.

She talks out of both sides of her mouth, b/c she also told you not to change for her, b/c she wasn't going back to the M. Neither of you can communicate well with each other, due to the high emotional charge. She's still very angry and takes it out on you, by blaming you for all her unhappiness. It's not your job to make her happy! It never was!

I am learning a lot about this now, meeting my own needs and being happy in a way that I do not depend on any external input to be happy, complete and to have a clear mission in life. She told me I do not put my children first, and that is what she expects from me. I spent yesterday afternoon 3 hours at the doctor to get a vaccine for S2 because we have made a mess with paperwork after W came running back from Germany and I have lost track of many things during the time I was still there and she came to Spain with both children (what a mistake btw, S7 has forgotten everything about Munich and I came here thinking I could get my M back only to see W with OM now, how could I be so stupid and naive... I will learn for the future)

It depends on what you are working toward. Obviously, your conversation with her left no doubt that you are still waiting for her to decide to give the M another chance. So, if you were trying to not show your cards, you failed. Now what do you do going forward?

I have been thinking about filing, giving up and moving on. I approached her with the idea of seeing where she stands but it is very clear now. I never meant to hide any cards, the day I start rebuilding my life, the day I cut on alimony to fair levels, I file for D with the conditions I want and I take control over Pack's life, that day I will close the door to her. I wanted to check what to do with that door, probably because I am still attached. Not only did I get an answer, I got to see OM call her, which will fuel my GAL power, for me.

See Pack, you haven't let go, and until you drop that emotional rope you have tied to her.........you aren't going to be as happy as you could be if you let it go. Will it take a divorce for you to let go?

I think so, my sister told me yesterday she cannot wait to see me ask for D, she says it is as if I needed that to finally move on.

It's a strange thing about WW's. On one hand your W has contempt for you, while on the other hand she wants to keep a line attached. Women are curious and some are very nosey. If she doesn't hear through friends how you are doing or what you're doing......she'll go through the kids. She wants to know all about your personal life, and just you wait......when the kids get older, she'll be asking them all kind of questions about daddy. They are her link to find out if you are moving on, and if you are seeing another woman, or if you break down and cry in front of the kids. These are simply examples, and may not be any she would choose. If you read other threads, you'll often see the WW living with another man, yet wants to be friends with her LBH. That's what your W wants. But you can't be friends if she has such a hard heart against you.

Again, I don't have the values to do this so I don't understand. She is moving on, meeting people, going out with OM when I cannot put my heart in a conversation with a new woman, and yet she wants to see how I am doing. DOes she not know she is destroying me already, does she want to see every piece she has shattered me into? why? I always thought there was love for me left somewhere inside of her, I think that was another big mistake on my side.

She doesn't miss many opportunities to repeat this same old narrative. Aren't you sick of it? Let me tell you, there's some people in this world that just won't turn lose of their resentment and their version of what really happened. There's NOTHING you can do to change her mind. I've tried to tell you that you can't become good enough to win her back, b/c that's not the problem. The problem is her mindset........her hard heart. She chooses to have this mindset. Do you understand what I'm saying? She has chosen to not accept any responsibility and by blaming you for 5 years of unhappiness, she feels justified to see Om and to continue to give you hell. Hatred does terrible things to people.

I do understand and yes I am sick of this. Actually something I mentioned to her is I cannot believe she has not moved on from that full you are guilty mindset and she said she made a decision being very sure of it, that she might have made a mistake but her feelings now for me were all gone. I think what I need is a lot of space for myself, to get away from these conversations, from any proof of OM and to be with myself and ask me deep inside, Pack, if ever in the future there was a chance to get your family and W back, what would you want to do?

Was it sadness or something else? I'd guess it's more self pity, but I might be wrong. The things she said in this quote backs up what I said just above it. Look Pack, she is punishing you. She's paying you back for those 5 yrs. She's not going to turn lose of this attitude anytime soon.......if ever. It's her choice to hold this anger in her heart, and claim she did everything. How could she have done everything and you had no idea she was planning to leave the M? It's crazy talk.

I think she feels pity for me and my pain. how attractive right? She did mention a couple of times when we were fighting that she was considering a life without me. When I heard this I became incredibly defensive and pulled away, I know I have made mistakes, I just feel our M was young and deserved a transformation. Perhaps it is too late now, I am not going to sit here seeing her with OM while we are married on paper, I am worth more than a safety net, I am worth a lot, I am a good person with good values and a fantastic sense of hard work and responsibility and I am fun to be with. I deserve more than to be a memory from a deficient marriage and a father who pays expenses every month.

Do you want to know what you did wrong? You GAL, went NC (sort of), and made changes to win your W back. That's why you feel like a failure when she turns to OM. This entire time you've done all this hard work for one reason..........to get your W back. You missed all the times we tried to tell you that it won't work if your motivation is to win her back. You GAL, NC, focus on kids, etc.......... for Pack. It's for Pack's happiness and betterment.......b/c you can't be good enough to win someone who refuses to like you. You just can't. You become a slave to the endeavor of changing for them. How exhausting that must be for you!

Until you give it up and genuinely live your life the way you want........you will remain a slave to the past mistakes. As long as you seek validation from your W, you will feel a failure. Why are you giving her that power to determine those things in your life? Okay, so she feels you were a lousy H. That's her problem at this time. You can do nothing about the past. You certainly can't change her mind. It's up to her. So, leave it alone and move on with having a life that pleases you.

I believe you misunderstood some of the techniques of DBing from the start, and I haven't been able to get you to see differently. So how do you think you can get her to change how she thinks?

You can't work on this MR b/c it's dead and the two of you are living separate lives. All you can do is work on your life without her. Until you understand that point, I don't think there is hope for a R. You have to let her go.

DBing is not a guarantee of saving the M. Nothing is a guarantee, b/c there are two people who have free volition.

I was convinced that we could improve communication, I could become more attractive both physically and emotionally and then the love we both feel for our children would fuel the idea of giving it a chance. I know this way of thinking is wrong, but I am speaking from the bottom of my heart now. I dont know why I keep giving her the power to decide how much I am worth as a man or how permanent my changes are.

I have used her rejection in the past as a way to reinforce I needed to keep working on my changes because I "wasn't there yet" and that fueled me to continue to work on myself, which felt amazing. I guess I am answering your question by saying what I need is to find that fuel in how great it feels to improve, for myself and my own sake, leaving her aside.

I am feeling very bad now Sandi, thanks a lot for your post and your help. I never thought anybody could come between W and me. I guess I had fantasies about how strong or permanent our M was. I need to go through the pain of realizing not only OM but many others might come and I need to sop thinking about her as the woman who sworn to me to share our lives and take care of our children together. I dont understand how I still cry at home and feel so miserable. It has been a year and a half and I should be way stronger by now. I am going for a run now as I said, I need it, and then I have IC later today. I will come and post about the session.

Thank you all for your help! Stay safe and go get what you deserve, it is a world of abundance out there!
((hugs))
Pack

[sandi2]

She continues to claim I never talked to her when we were married and honestly I am starting to believe it is true.

Whether it's true or not, there is nothing you can do about it now. I mean, if she believes you didn't talk to her while living together, what kind of sense would it make for her to expect it while on the verge of D?

She told me I do not put my children first, and that is what she expects from me.

Oh, excuse me? Does she not realize she is in no position to tell you how to parent the kids on your time, just as she doesn't want you to criticize her as a mother? She no longer holds authority over you or your life. That's what divorce does......it sets you free. How dare her!

DOes she not know she is destroying me already, does she want to see every piece she has shattered me into? why? I always thought there was love for me left somewhere inside of her, I think that was another big mistake on my side.

It's about vengeance.

I think what I need is a lot of space for myself, to get away from these conversations, from any proof of OM and to be with myself and ask me deep inside, Pack, if ever in the future there was a chance to get your family and W back, what would you want to do?

I want you to hear me carefully. You desire the W and family you once had. Your W has changed. She's not the same person. If all of you lived together again, it would be a different family, b/c both adults have changed and the boys are older. So, honestly, there is no getting the past back. You can't turn back the clock and correct the mistakes that were made five years ago. I think you truly want a chance to make up for the past, b/c she has pounded into your head that you failed. If she moved back today, it would not be a happy occasion, b/c she has no loving feelings for you. Why on earth would you want to live out your life with someone who doesn't love you?

She did mention a couple of times when we were fighting that she was considering a life without me. When I heard this I became incredibly defensive and pulled away, I know I have made mistakes, I just feel our M was young and deserved a transformation. Perhaps it is too late now, I am not going to sit here seeing her with OM while we are married on paper, I am worth more than a safety net, I am worth a lot, I am a good person with good values and a fantastic sense of hard work and responsibility and I am fun to be with. I deserve more than to be a memory from a deficient marriage and a father who pays expenses every month.

I agree!

I have used her rejection in the past as a way to reinforce I needed to keep working on my changes because I "wasn't there yet" and that fueled me to continue to work on myself, which felt amazing. I guess I am answering your question by saying what I need is to find that fuel in how great it feels to improve, for myself and my own sake, leaving her aside.

Pack, listen to me. You can only do your part. She has to do her part, and she refuses. She cuts you down and you take it to mean you need to work harder to get her. No! It means your W is not a nice person. She manipulates you, and blames you. She takes no responsibility for her part. Until that changes, I don't believe there is hope for a future together with her. She is not willing to let go of the past and forgive. Well, so be it. That's her choice to live with that much resentment in her heart, but if I were you, I'd stop holding on to a dream. How could you be happy with a the kind of woman she has become? You've done all the changing. She's done no changing. She wants to hold the past over your head. That's the reality.

I guess I had fantasies about how strong or permanent our M was. I need to go through the pain of realizing not only OM but many others might come and I need to sop thinking about her as the woman who sworn to me to share our lives and take care of our children together.

Yes, you need to grieve. When we lose something precious to us, it hurts very deeply. You don't get through the grief in a few days and then it's all done. It comes in stages. You'll have better days, and then something will trigger your sorrow again. But here's the thing, Pack. If you had let go a year ago, you would be through the worst part by now and having a new outlook for your Paco's life. You have cried a lot of tears, but I don't think they were tears of grief. I hope you will let go and grieve for what the M could have been, and accept the reality.

I know you have suffered so much, and I could paint a beautiful picture just to keep you hanging on to false hope. But that's not the type person I am. I hope you'll resign yourself to the fact if the two of you ever get back together, it will be b/c she changes and she chases you down to tell you how sorry she is for hurting you and begs you to give her another chance. I don't want to see you giving up the life you could have b/c you're waiting around in hopes this will happen. I don't think she will. She comes out as the loser. She made this choice. You've done all you could to save the M, but she won't have it. Does that mean you have to work harder, make more changes? NO! It means it's over and there's nothing more you can do.

It has been a year and a half and I should be way stronger by now. I am going for a run now as I said, I need it, and then I have IC later today. I will come and post about the session.

Yes, please do!

[Pack_19]

Hi Sandi, all!

I am having a terrible Morning thinking about the past and how sad it is that we are living separate lives after all we have achieved for our children. There are some comments from Steve and Sandi I have in my head today.

This

- Do not start R talks. (This includes about her infidelity)
- GAL (Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst)
- Continue to work on self-improvements. (Are you in IC? What books are you reading? How are you trying to become the best Pack_19 possible?)
- Detach! You need to be at a place where hearing about her infidelity has no impact on you at all. The fact that it has impacted you means you are still overly attached.
- Doing nothing IS doing something. (Do not give into the illusion of action.)"

The idea I have is to take these statements and refocus them from the point of view of a person who is moving on. I tried my best and despite being a terrible DBer and abusing the 37 rules over and over I still think W should have no doubt our family and M were priority number 1 in my life and I was ready to put on the hard work to make them better than before.

I also think about the time Sandi you told me I need to put my feelings aside when dealing with this kind of WW because otherwise I am going to lose myself. When I am ready to bring up divorce in April having collected all proof of my current financial situation and issues (my salary will drop then and L has recommended me I wait until then to change things) I am sure she will think I am a terrible monster who is keeping his money for himself to buy that car he was always talking about... but I am going to do it. As I said above, I am worth more than a safety net, and this safety net is broken today .

IC session went great, I was told it is fine to have this step back and grieve but I was also told I have not accepted W's decision and I need to work on doing the ultimate act of love for her. Giving her what she wants and divorcing her, for my and her own sake. IC literally told me to be the one to step down from the ring, to stop the fight and give up, there is nothing I can change. I hope you are happy to hear it resonates with all you have kept telling me. Now is Pack's turn to make it happen. I am feeling like a failure as a man and yet I know out of this hell I will come a confident, attractive and irresistible man. That is how I want to align my work on myself. Make me the man only a fool would leave. For that, updated PIES.

P - get back my competitive spirit, wanting to be the best at work and sports. Keep up the running, tennis and biking. Dress with style and my unique touch and gain that muscle mass I need.
I - Get the promo to L6 this year, get a new certification at work and continue to read about NMMNG, attractiveness, being a strong man
E - Continue to work on my empathy and communication skills. Practice with ANYONE, talk to my grandma and S7. Being a rock for my children now that they need it the most.
S - Stay positive, focus all my strength in inner changes, dropping all pursue and truly accepting W wants a D and I should deliver one even if it destroys every cell in my body. Understand I cannot control my way out of here and work for a better future.

Whether it's true or not, there is nothing you can do about it now. I mean, if she believes you didn't talk to her while living together, what kind of sense would it make for her to expect it while on the verge of D?

What I need to do is use that frustration to change my defects but reflect them on others right now. Learn to communicate better, never let money affect my vision of life, work on empathy and emotional connection (making people feel good things when interacting with me). In other words, be a shining sun with anyone but WW. Then permanently remain that sun, for my own sake. I have tried to communicate with her, God knows, but it is not the time and place for that.

Oh, excuse me? Does she not realize she is in no position to tell you how to parent the kids on your time, just as she doesn't want you to criticize her as a mother? She no longer holds authority over you or your life. That's what divorce does......it sets you free. How dare her!

I guess this comes with the entire manipulation, blaming pack. I need to get stronger in front of these comments. Ahe also told me to be clever and say positive things to S7 when he does not want to call her in the evenings she is with me, apparently she does so. She is all love to me you see... Jokes aside, I no longer know what is true or a lie and what to do or not when these lessons about dealing with kids, hiding ugly truth from them and having an amicable divorce come from here.

It's about vengeance.

That is very sad, I have tried it in the past and it never makes you happy. I will never understand how our M has come to represent something so negative to her. Best to let go, I can still save myself and become a new Pack.

I want you to hear me carefully. You desire the W and family you once had. Your W has changed. She's not the same person. If all of you lived together again, it would be a different family, b/c both adults have changed and the boys are older. So, honestly, there is no getting the past back. You can't turn back the clock and correct the mistakes that were made five years ago. I think you truly want a chance to make up for the past, b/c she has pounded into your head that you failed. If she moved back today, it would not be a happy occasion, b/c she has no loving feelings for you. Why on earth would you want to live out your life with someone who doesn't love you?

I am going to read this very paragraph many times. Why on earth would I want that? I dont know, I guess I am not thinking clearly as my mind is still processing all the pain and changes I have been through over the last year and a half. In some things I failed, in others I did not, what still shocks me is how much she values more those I failed on over those I nailed as a father and man.

I agree!

I need to nail this into my head everyday. The safety net is gone, I am worth a lot and I want to change to have an amazing life at some point.

Pack, listen to me. You can only do your part. She has to do her part, and she refuses. She cuts you down and you take it to mean you need to work harder to get her. No! It means your W is not a nice person. She manipulates you, and blames you. She takes no responsibility for her part. Until that changes, I don't believe there is hope for a future together with her. She is not willing to let go of the past and forgive. Well, so be it. That's her choice to live with that much resentment in her heart, but if I were you, I'd stop holding on to a dream. How could you be happy with a the kind of woman she has become? You've done all the changing. She's done no changing. She wants to hold the past over your head. That's the reality.

I guess all of you from outside see it clearly how she is never going to change and I continue to idealize the woman I married to the point that there has always been a voice in my head whispering (she will realize, she will eventually see the truth). My sister thinks W is all about a nice facade and is rotten inside and she keeps telling me I need to see this at some point. I think she is very radical but it is true that after all she has done to me, I have not lost my W, I have lost a woman I used to live with. If she really felt like my wife, we would have made it work, it would not be 18 months into this hell and still the same rejection and hatred.

Yes, you need to grieve. When we lose something precious to us, it hurts very deeply. You don't get through the grief in a few days and then it's all done. It comes in stages. You'll have better days, and then something will trigger your sorrow again. But here's the thing, Pack. If you had let go a year ago, you would be through the worst part by now and having a new outlook for your Paco's life. You have cried a lot of tears, but I don't think they were tears of grief. I hope you will let go and grieve for what the M could have been, and accept the reality.

Let's see if I can explain myself. When I cry I feel as if we had thrown to the floor years of work together towards a better place to be, a better career, traveling together, the parenting of our children, the love and desire to be together we once felt... I remember one day in Munich as all was ending, W was getting dressed and I came behind her wanting to hug, kiss her, and pull her down onto the bed. Not in a sexual way, just kissing. She took my hands of her and told me to stop. My marriage was falling to pieces and all I wanted to do was get a better job to work on the field I dreamed of, what an absolute emotionally useless man. Sorry but I really think this, many people have told me I lack emotional intelligence and I dont know how to exercise that.

I know you have suffered so much, and I could paint a beautiful picture just to keep you hanging on to false hope. But that's not the type person I am. I hope you'll resign yourself to the fact if the two of you ever get back together, it will be b/c she changes and she chases you down to tell you how sorry she is for hurting you and begs you to give her another chance. I don't want to see you giving up the life you could have b/c you're waiting around in hopes this will happen. I don't think she will. She comes out as the loser. She made this choice. You've done all you could to save the M, but she won't have it. Does that mean you have to work harder, make more changes? NO! It means it's over and there's nothing more you can do.

This is never going to happen Sandi, I wish, but she will not change. I guess it is easier to try luck with new affairs and enjoy the differences they will have wrt me. I have mixed feelings, it feels like freedom to be happy again but it also feels like I have lost the most important battle of my entire life and to a terrible enemy. Maybe if I had done the rules correctly and listened to you better, perhaps now from this letting go point of view I can implement them properly. If ever she comes begging, then I will worry about it but for now I need to make some changes to my life and my attitude towards WW. I am a great father and man, not a safety net or a poor husband.

Thanks a lot for your help and comments, it means the world to me.
Please keep posting, I am having a very low moment with the entire OM + giving up + D in my head.
(( hugs))
Pack

[LH19]

Pacman,

You have given all your power away and you could never be happy in a relationship where you have no power. You can't see it but this isn't about your W. It's about your perception that you can only be happy in an intact family. This belief is most likely caused the downfall of your marriage. You were trying to protect it so much your W likely felt trapped and suffocated. That's what happens when you hold on to something too tight.

In life you need to adapt, improvise and over come. You have to learn to be happy in a split family. You have to be able to walk away things that don't work for you. I am pretty sure your W having a BF is not part of your core values. That's what you need to work on. Until you can have healthy boundaries you will always be a prisoner in any relationship.

Read Scotty Bs thread. You guys are very similar. You both think it's about your Ws but in reality it's the mythical symbol a W represents to the two of you. Currently it is not reality and likely never will and that is why you both suffer immensely.

[SteveLW]

Pack, when BD happened for me I was about to turn 49 years old. I got married when I was 29. All through my 20s I dated lots of different girls (even with the aura of a long-term on-again, off-again relationship with a woman that jerked me around for years).

I point that out to say that perspective on things changes a lot when you're 49 vs. 29. You are still so young and there are so many other people out there, that it pains me to see you so all in on this woman that seems doggedly determine to leave you. I am sure you've heard the old saying that "we want what we can't have" (which is a truth underlying why I allowed the woman mentioned above to jerk me around for so long). And I think that truth sometimes is compounded by the fact that now there is an OM. Biologically we turn into a rutting buck when another buck starts to move in on our doe. That competitive fire comes out in us. "Oh no you dint!" attitude bubbles up and we start comparing ourselves to the "other buck" to try compete with them. I suspect you've got a little bit of that going on. It was difficult enough when you thought she was just walking away out of unhappiness, but when another buck show up your "fight" instinct kicks in.

I guess what I am trying to ask is that is the desire to fight stronger than the desire to hold fast to a boundary? If I had asked you 3 years ago "What would you do if your W cheated on you?" what would your answer be? Would you have said that you'd have walked? Would that have been a deal-breaker? If so, what is different now?

And yes, from her perspective she likely doesn't see it as cheating. Cheater never do. Cheaters do all kind of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (and by extension, others) that the marriage was already over by time the cheating took place. It also speaks to the different the LBS and WAS views separation. LBSs see separation as a necessary step towards R. WASs see separation a step towards D. You probably didn't see separation on 10/27/19 the same way she saw it. You thought "some distance will let me detach easier (it rarely does) and that will help me bust my D." She saw it as a chance to be free and do whatever she wanted (yes, that includes dating and sleeping with other men).

So Pack the question I have for you is what are you trying so save here? You are young, have 67% of your life ahead of you, and breaking the bound you still feel towards her will only make you stronger, and let you move on. Look at the others here whose sitches have ended in D, they are so much better off today than they were on BD, and the weeks/months that followed. I like the PIES approach you laid out. Great way to look at your path ahead. But my question for you above still stands. Keep PIES in sight, but what are you planning to do to move on (and forward) with YOUR life?

[sandi2]

I am feeling like a failure as a man and yet I know out of this hell I will come a confident, attractive and irresistible man.

Do you? Do you really believe you'll come out of this a confident, attractive and irresistible man? Feeling like a failure as a man is at the core of Paco not being able to let go of the M. In your initial thread you spoke of your family's values and traditions, which included how they measured a successful marriage/family. Like most every man I know, having a job that provides the income for the family is at the top of their priority list. That's one of the main responsibilities of a man with a family!!! But your WW hits you where she knows it will hurt the most........and you believe you are a failure as a man. Stop believing lies.

I've talked to you about this until I'm blue in the face, but it does no good if you choose to believe you have failed as a man. I can't change your thoughts, so if you are so determined to see yourself as a failure of a man .......then I can't change you. In spite of the work you've done, you are currently your own worst enemy. You are worse on yourself than your WW has been........which is terrible. You have measured your worth as a man, based on your W's feelings harsh feelings. I pray that one day you'll understand your self worth comes from within Paco. Yes, set goals, raise your standards or whatever it takes to grow as a person.........but what good does it do if you can't respect yourself? You need to stop beating yourself up and learn to forgive your past mistakes. Let it go, and start liking the man you've become. Your sadness will never go away if you can't forgive yourself. You were doing what you had been taught was the job of a H. You were a good man, and bad things happen to good people.......so stop with the self punishment and allow yourself to be happy. There's one person holding you back, and his name is Paco.

I am sure she will think I am a terrible monster who is keeping his money for himself to buy that car he was always talking about... but I am going to do it. As I said above, I am worth more than a safety net, and this safety net is broken today .

Let me tell you what I think it is a sign of detachment. When her thoughts and feelings about you become irrelevant. You make decisions based on your integrity and moral/spiritual principles, and not on what your W may think about it.

Stay positive, focus all my strength in inner changes, dropping all pursue and truly accepting W wants a D and I should deliver one even if it destroys every cell in my body. Understand I cannot control my way out of here and work for a better future.

The first sentence sounds contradictive. Are you staying positive a divorce will destroy every cell in your body? I don't think this is the type of positive thinking you should have. A divorce will destroy you.......only if you choose to let it destroy you. You have to change how you look at this, Pack. Not that you welcome or enjoy a divorce, but it doesn't have to destroy every cell in your body! That is YOU having that mindset. Only you can stop having that mindset. How can you have a positive outlook when your inner thoughts are saying every cell of your body will be destroyed?

I guess all of you from outside see it clearly how she is never going to change and I continue to idealize the woman I married to the point that there has always been a voice in my head whispering (she will realize, she will eventually see the truth). My sister thinks W is all about a nice facade and is rotten inside and she keeps telling me I need to see this at some point.

Well, she's your sister, so she may feel anger toward your W for the pain she's caused. I will say this, however, that women can read other women. Men can read other men. In other words, your sister wasn't blinded by love and could see through your W. Your sister doesn't have any illusions of a fairy tale R in the future with this W.

Pack, I'm so sorry you are having a painful day. I wish I could make it go away and fill it with pure joy. By your words, you are trying to see your worth a little more.......and I believe when you get things in proper perspective, your life will take off on a glorious ride. This will pass, and one day you will wonder why it took you so long. (((hugs)))

[Pack_19]

Pacman,

You have given all your power away and you could never be happy in a relationship where you have no power. You can't see it but this isn't about your W. It's about your perception that you can only be happy in an intact family. This belief is most likely caused the downfall of your marriage. You were trying to protect it so much your W likely felt trapped and suffocated. That's what happens when you hold on to something too tight.

In life you need to adapt, improvise and over come. You have to learn to be happy in a split family. You have to be able to walk away things that don't work for you. I am pretty sure your W having a BF is not part of your core values. That's what you need to work on. Until you can have healthy boundaries you will always be a prisoner in any relationship.

Hi LH!
I hope you are doing great! I do think I was finally doing a good job on releasing pressure and setting up my boundaries when we interact. Just yesterday she told me I was a poor father in front of S7 because when I pick him up from her place I let him sit at the front row in my car. She threatened me to take a picture and send it to my L and eventually S7 sat behind but I told her he is safe as long as I use a base sit and he wears the seat belt. Of course she used the opportunity to shout that we are going to D when I told her not to interfere in my role as a father and then she left, probably to see OM, I dont care it was just sad.

Yes I was trying to protect it a lot but because I valued it a lot and I always believed it was worth the best fight in my life. Turns out the fight was against W. I already got over my dream of working in the F1 when I could and it has not affected me negatively, I am sure eventually I will reach the same point about my M.

No, this behavior is out of my boundaries, this is why I contacted L to initiate D but she suggested I wait until April when there will be more reasons to change the D agreement. I never thought she would do this while not D, I guess it is just a paper and as Sandi well said, we are living separate lives since over a year.

[Pack_19]

Pack, when BD happened for me I was about to turn 49 years old. I got married when I was 29. All through my 20s I dated lots of different girls (even with the aura of a long-term on-again, off-again relationship with a woman that jerked me around for years).

I point that out to say that perspective on things changes a lot when you're 49 vs. 29. You are still so young and there are so many other people out there, that it pains me to see you so all in on this woman that seems doggedly determine to leave you. I am sure you've heard the old saying that "we want what we can't have" (which is a truth underlying why I allowed the woman mentioned above to jerk me around for so long). And I think that truth sometimes is compounded by the fact that now there is an OM. Biologically we turn into a rutting buck when another buck starts to move in on our doe. That competitive fire comes out in us. "Oh no you dint!" attitude bubbles up and we start comparing ourselves to the "other buck" to try compete with them. I suspect you've got a little bit of that going on. It was difficult enough when you thought she was just walking away out of unhappiness, but when another buck show up your "fight" instinct kicks in.

I guess what I am trying to ask is that is the desire to fight stronger than the desire to hold fast to a boundary? If I had asked you 3 years ago "What would you do if your W cheated on you?" what would your answer be? Would you have said that you'd have walked? Would that have been a deal-breaker? If so, what is different now?

And yes, from her perspective she likely doesn't see it as cheating. Cheater never do. Cheaters do all kind of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (and by extension, others) that the marriage was already over by time the cheating took place. It also speaks to the different the LBS and WAS views separation. LBSs see separation as a necessary step towards R. WASs see separation a step towards D. You probably didn't see separation on 10/27/19 the same way she saw it. You thought "some distance will let me detach easier (it rarely does) and that will help me bust my D." She saw it as a chance to be free and do whatever she wanted (yes, that includes dating and sleeping with other men).

So Pack the question I have for you is what are you trying so save here? You are young, have 67% of your life ahead of you, and breaking the bound you still feel towards her will only make you stronger, and let you move on. Look at the others here whose sitches have ended in D, they are so much better off today than they were on BD, and the weeks/months that followed. I like the PIES approach you laid out. Great way to look at your path ahead. But my question for you above still stands. Keep PIES in sight, but what are you planning to do to move on (and forward) with YOUR life?

Wow Steve, thanks for the words. If you asked me three years ago I would have said I would walk away and never look back again. I dont have confirmation from W, I will never have, she claims I am not entitled to any explanation and I guess this resonates a lot with the description you have given on how she and myself perceived the separation as it began. Still many people have seen them so I lean towards the idea it is true and I need to move on and be there for my kids.

I am not comparing myself with OM, I know my worth trust me, there are not so many 30 year old men in Seville with my career, healthy life style and sense of responsibility. What you said about having what I cannot have is very painful, not for you to say, but because it links back to when W used to tell me she felt like my doll I never played with and now wanted because I could not have it. You cannot imagine how much it hurt to hear that comparison and think she had such a cruel perception on what I thought and felt about her. I dont know anymore, maybe you both are right and I am trying to prove to myself I can attract her again when it is not about that. I have already won at attracting back my friends (who tell me this every chance we have to meet) and my children. For me that is a victory.

I have been on a couple of dates, I can feel the sense of many other women being out there for me. I can feel you all guys are telling me to see reality and move on. There is a question I have to ask as it is killing me. Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me. As long as I can breathe, I can change and now I am going to put all y efforts in NC and doing my PIES for myself, as a new man.

Thanks for your words. Hugs! Pack

[LH19]

There is a question I have to ask as it is killing me. Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me. As long as I can breathe, I can change and now I am going to put all y efforts in NC and doing my PIES for myself, as a new man.

Absolutely not! You are a bad dber but just about all of us were in the beginning. The reality is it is very unlikely to stop the D by the time you get here. Can you reconcile in the future? Absolutely! Steve has posted that his studies show that 90% will eventually want to recon. It may take 35 years but there is a chance for sure.

[SteveLW]

Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me.

I think this question has a flaw in it. You are asking this question with the false notion that you ever had any control over your sitch. This is a common struggle for LBSs. Pack, you could have DB'd perfectly from minute 1, with zero mistakes (almost humanly impossible) and still ended up where you are. In these sitches the WAS has all of control, and that is a difficult thing to understand. It takes two committed and dedicated to making a MR work. It only takes on to make a D.

Now certainly there are things you can do, and behavior that will worsen your sitch. But Pack, I don't remember anything so egregious that we can point to and say "You blew it up!" And even when mistakes blow things up, they tend to be temporary blow ups and things go back to the status quo. Again, nobody DBs perfectly. You've mentioned going on dates, yet you still have an idealistic belief in wanting to keep your family intact. How do you square those two things? But yet you made the decision to date even though you feel that way. This is not a chastisement, as it is your sitch and you can do whatever you want to do. But it is important for our actions to align with what we want!

Think about it this way, if you were planning on marrying your W, and the marriage was scheduled, everything booked, would you date others? And while it isn't exactly and apples-to-apples comparison, deep down it is similar. "I want to be married and committed to this person.......but I am going to date other people."

Two things moving forward: Stick to your principles. And be true to yourself regarding your motivations. And then weigh all decisions and actions against those two things. For instance, if you want to be in a committed, loving marriage with your WAW, then why are you dating? And if you are just dating to "get her attention" then are you doing it for the right reason? See?

So I am sure there have been things you've done and said that have hurt your sitch. We all did. No one is perfect. And you cannot change past mistakes. The best statement you made was: "As long as I can breathe, I can change" SO TRUE! So focus on that regardless of what your WAS does.

[Pack_19]

Do you? Do you really believe you'll come out of this a confident, attractive and irresistible man? Feeling like a failure as a man is at the core of Paco not being able to let go of the M. In your initial thread you spoke of your family's values and traditions, which included how they measured a successful marriage/family. Like most every man I know, having a job that provides the income for the family is at the top of their priority list. That's one of the main responsibilities of a man with a family!!! But your WW hits you where she knows it will hurt the most........and you believe you are a failure as a man. Stop believing lies.

Hi Sandi, there are so many things in my head about my mistakes now I need to go one by one and destroy them. Ideas about being selfish, about spending too much time at work, about not been emotionally intelligent, not performing sexually, not being able to communicate and giving money too much importance. There is a list for me to shatter to pieces, it has been very hard to do this in the presence of a W who always found a new reason to tell me I was the same and she could not be happy with me. When on Sunday she addressed me as having insulted her for a year it is as if it had snapped on my head (there will always be an excuse so that I am a monster and she is entitled to leave me and be happy). Yesterday, I was a poor father, tomorrow I might be selfish man or unable to control my jealousy. Yes I had some issues, but nowhere near what she claims and I am on a quest to erase them all. Sandi, as I told you yesterday, I am worth more than a second option or a safety net. As you said, I dont think she will eve chase me and do the work needed to R. God knows I gave it my best and I meant it when I promised her to love her and grow a family together. She knows this, I can continue my life in peace.

You were a good man, and bad things happen to good people.......so stop with the self punishment and allow yourself to be happy. There's one person holding you back, and his name is Paco.

I will do this Sandi, I have a great job and 2 fantastic sons who adore me. W does not have the power to change me as a man or my future.

Let me tell you what I think it is a sign of detachment. When her thoughts and feelings about you become irrelevant. You make decisions based on your integrity and moral/spiritual principles, and not on what your W may think about it.

Getting there, I did not let her comment affect me for a second yesterday. I am a great father and my son loves my car and he gets to sit in the front row with all safety needed. Also he gets to choose the music and W has nothing to say there.

The first sentence sounds contradictive. Are you staying positive a divorce will destroy every cell in your body? I don't think this is the type of positive thinking you should have. A divorce will destroy you.......only if you choose to let it destroy you. You have to change how you look at this, Pack. Not that you welcome or enjoy a divorce, but it doesn't have to destroy every cell in your body! That is YOU having that mindset. Only you can stop having that mindset. How can you have a positive outlook when your inner thoughts are saying every cell of your body will be destroyed?

I know myself and I know this will haunt me in my future. This having being able to get a second chance, even if it did not depend on me. This is why I said it will be painful. Also it will affect my children and I cannot protect them against it. My mindset is changed Sandi, I was a boy who made mistakes but out of this D I will come an attractive and strong man.

Well, she's your sister, so she may feel anger toward your W for the pain she's caused. I will say this, however, that women can read other women. Men can read other men. In other words, your sister wasn't blinded by love and could see through your W. Your sister doesn't have any illusions of a fairy tale R in the future with this W.

She told me the other day she was never fond of W but she always thought I could do much better, so she is shocked by how much this is hurting me. Yes, I had the illusion she would change but all the messages I receive is that W is very focused on her new life without me and from her side all are cold messages like "I hope we can be as cordial as possible". It is disgusting. I am going to use all of this to fuel my rebirth. I am going to get the car and motorbike I always wanted and move back to Madrid the weeks I dont have the children, I will not stay here seeing her rebuild her life as if I had been a mistake in her past.

Pack, I'm so sorry you are having a painful day. I wish I could make it go away and fill it with pure joy. By your words, you are trying to see your worth a little more.......and I believe when you get things in proper perspective, your life will take off on a glorious ride. This will pass, and one day you will wonder why it took you so long. (((hugs)))

I know Sandi, deep inside my head I know I have all the ingredients to make me the happiest man and to live a great life. You have seen many WWs and their behavior, you have seen both Ds and Rs. Why is she so vindictive and cold after a year and a half? Why does she always come up with a new excuse to bring me down and tell me I have not changed and why does she pride herself so much on her newly found life where I am not even a shade? Perhaps she really is happier now and I should be happy for her, at the end of the day that is what you do when you love a person.

Yes I am having a bad week, I had great plans for our M and my family and the way she broke with all of them and blamed me for everything was something I never expected. I know now next time a woman tells me to do something otherwise she will go and sleep with the first man outside I will tell her "yes, goodbye and use protection!", but when this all started I could never imagine she would get to this point. The same way I could never imagine her restarting her life with OM without having had the chance to discuss our communication issues and the tough conditions we had at home in Germany. I guess it is her choice to not have this conversations and for me to have them with myself.

I also have some questions regarding my thoughts about the past. I value a lot all we have lived in the UK and Germany, the challenges we overcame and the experiences we shared. I cannot get them out of my head and they are hurting me because they make me want to go back to that family and that is simply not possible. What can I do to deal with them better?

I am not a safety net, I am not a poor husband or emotionally deficient, I am a great man and father, I have values and goals in my life and I work hard to reach those goals. No woman will ever come in between either these goals or my perception of myself as a man. I am strong, I am loving, I am attractive, I am mature, I am fun and I am the heck of a father!

I came here desperate wanting to save my M, I have met amazing people and learnt I have to save myself and my integrity. I also learnt to experience pain without reacting to it and the sad truth that even if W loved me more than anything, she could still choose to leave me. I need a life without her and I can promise you all is going to be a great life!

Thank you all for your comments.

((hugs)) Pack

[Pack_19]

Absolutely not! You are a bad dber but just about all of us were in the beginning. The reality is it is very unlikely to stop the D by the time you get here. Can you reconcile in the future? Absolutely! Steve has posted that his studies show that 90% will eventually want to recon. It may take 35 years but there is a chance for sure.

I complain a lot about the "give me now" society and pride myself of being a great long term seeker and yet I want to R now and under the perfect circumstances. I am forcing myself out of pride and self esteem to close the door, if there is OM it should be me who would never want to R. But I love the version of her I married, this means if she ever comes begging I will be in a weak spot. Your post and the one from Steve have made me think a lot.

What are my core values?
Why I let actions from my W influence those values?
I am no longer a weak man, I have to think about these questions carefully.

Steve,

I think this question has a flaw in it. You are asking this question with the false notion that you ever had any control over your sitch. This is a common struggle for LBSs. Pack, you could have DB'd perfectly from minute 1, with zero mistakes (almost humanly impossible) and still ended up where you are. In these sitches the WAS has all of control, and that is a difficult thing to understand. It takes two committed and dedicated to making a MR work. It only takes on to make a D.

So true. I should be proud of having learnt about healthy relationships, about PIES, about my Mr nice guy issues, about sexual kung-fu, about better communication and detachment. I think my goal now is to focus on me, my future and breaking that emotional rope that tights me to W.

Now certainly there are things you can do, and behavior that will worsen your sitch. But Pack, I don't remember anything so egregious that we can point to and say "You blew it up!" And even when mistakes blow things up, they tend to be temporary blow ups and things go back to the status quo. Again, nobody DBs perfectly. You've mentioned going on dates, yet you still have an idealistic belief in wanting to keep your family intact. How do you square those two things? But yet you made the decision to date even though you feel that way. This is not a chastisement, as it is your sitch and you can do whatever you want to do. But it is important for our actions to align with what we want!

Think about it this way, if you were planning on marrying your W, and the marriage was scheduled, everything booked, would you date others? And while it isn't exactly and apples-to-apples comparison, deep down it is similar. "I want to be married and committed to this person.......but I am going to date other people."

Two things moving forward: Stick to your principles. And be true to yourself regarding your motivations. And then weigh all decisions and actions against those two things. For instance, if you want to be in a committed, loving marriage with your WAW, then why are you dating? And if you are just dating to "get her attention" then are you doing it for the right reason? See?

So I am sure there have been things you've done and said that have hurt your sitch. We all did. No one is perfect. And you cannot change past mistakes. The best statement you made was: "As long as I can breathe, I can change" SO TRUE! So focus on that regardless of what your WAS does.

You hit me hard there Steve. Yes I never go out with my heart, maybe I am doing to catch her attention or as revenge because I image W being with OM or going out on dates and I want the same fun for me. Truth is I dont find that fun, fun now for me is driving, the bike, smashing my running records, being with my friends or playing with my son at home. I also felt like it was time to have sex again so I turned to tinder in search of that.

I also have a lot of pressure from the people who love me to move on, they see W building a new life, seeing OM and they want me to be able to move on a "meet someone better". I am not trying to justify myself, my core values ask me to continue to work on myself, my future, the kids and to change the dynamics of the R with W. However, if she is seeing OM, how can I do that? Steve, I will look weak, clingy and stupid, wont I?
Knowing this...

I am not a safety net, I am not a poor husband or emotionally deficient, I am a great man and father, I have values and goals in my life and I work hard to reach those goals. No woman will ever come in between either these goals or my perception of myself as a man. I am strong, I am loving, I am attractive, I am mature, I am fun and I am the heck of a father!

and the fact that I maintain the promise I made to my W the day we married. But also knowing she has told me she is certain she wants a D and she will never come back because she cannot be happy with me. You have a great sense of integrity and values, Steve, I truly admire you even if for me you are only a name now. What would you do? Please help me, as much as you feel you can /want. I think I am letting all that is happen lose me in a sea of fear and doubt.

Thank you! ((hugs)) Pack

[SteveLW]

What would you do? Please help me, as much as you feel you can /want. I think I am letting all that is happen lose me in a sea of fear and doubt.

Thank you! ((hugs)) Pack

"a sea of fear and doubt". What an apt and exact description. When you said that it took me back to January 2018. That described me perfectly. The fear and doubt is what motivates us to make DB mistakes. If we could remain strong and clear thinking we'd DB so much better. LH is quick to point out that if you read my threads, I made a lot of mistakes. He is absolutely right. And yet I feel looking back, because it was my 2nd sitch, I actually DB'd in the upper percentile of LBS DB-wise. But I certainly let fear and doubt inform my actions at times, so it is a demon that is difficult to get around.

So to your question, what would I do? Well all I can tell you is what I did. Though our sitches were different in a few ways, I think that you can look at this as a pattern:

1. Get into IC. IC is supremely important. It is something I refused to do for years. But when I finally did it, it paid huge dividends in getting me to recognize my lack of empathy, my selfishness, and my bad view of Rs that led me to behave in ways that pushed her away. The beauty of all of that was that these were improvements that would have made me a better person (and spouse) whether she stayed or left! (This includes reading books, and watching self-help videos online! Sometimes those were even prescribed by the IC.)

2. Commit to GAL. I am a huge believer in GAL and I think if more LBSs were better at it then they would be able to move forward in their sitches, regardless of eventual outcome. So many do GAL poorly and get stuck.

3. I would avoid dating and having sex with OW. For me, it would be until I was in a new MR with someone new, but for those with a different worldview, I would say avoid it until you have worked through all of the emotional baggage related to your WAW.

4. I would choose an end date. A drop dead date. A date that I could say "I gave it my all for X amount of time, and she has done nothing to suggest she is even remotely interested in recommitting back to marriage." For me it was 1 year post BD. But it could be whatever you can live with. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? It just depends on how patient you are and want to be. But I can tell you, having an end date, for me, was so freeing!

5. Realize that you will be ok, post D! This is where this forum really came through for me! I got here desperate to save my MR. But the more I embraced my potential fate, and actually started to get excited about it, the better I got at the other aspects of DBing! My mistakes became fewer and farther between. When I consulted with a D lawyer the weight of the world lifted from my shoulders! The more I realized that I was going to be not just fine, but that I was going to flourish post D, the more empowered I felt! This is why I have such a deep admiration for folks like AS, R2C, and LH, because they are out living their best lives and flourishing post D. What inspirations! (There are others too!)

So since you asked, looking back, this was my pattern. There were lots of starts and stops, so I do not want to give you the impression that I was perfect. You will see one area I really struggled was in snooping. I got better over time, but those first 6-8 weeks post BD I was really bad about snooping on her. I also credit this forum for helping past that obsession (and it was an obsession for me!).

Pack, you are going to be awesome moving forward! No doubt about that.

[sandi2]

Why is she so vindictive and cold after a year and a half? Why does she always come up with a new excuse to bring me down and tell me I have not changed and why does she pride herself so much on her newly found life where I am not even a shade?

I have known people like your W who refuse to forgive, put away her anger, and to move forward. It's a fault within themselves. Even if she should marry another man, there will be a part of her that is left with bitterness, and it will, more than likely, affect her other relationships. At first, she'll try to make her new man sound as if he's everything you could not be. (That's just another sign she wants to throw it in your face to hurt you.) It's her vindictive desire to hurt you. Eventually, she'll adapt a negative attitude that all men are alike, meaning they are no good. [/i]

Is it your fault that she's filled with vindictiveness? No! Why? B/c every individual has free volition over their behavior. We choose how to act, how to respond, and how to treat other people. Rather than taking responsibility for herself, she has decided to put all her unhappiness on you and make [i]you responsible. Therefore, she walks around feeling justified b/c she can say it's all your fault. In other words, she thinks she gets off free to say & do whatever she wants without any accountability, by blaming you for the past. This attitude carries over to her having OM.

There is nothing you can do to change her mindset. In real life, I've seen a few of this type of men & women who come to the end of their lives and die.......full of bitterness at life and most everyone around them. They might have a few fleeting moments of happiness during their lifetime, but it was mostly shallow, due to holding onto anger. Their bitterness at their ex-spouse overflows into the other areas of their lives. The ex-spouse has no control over it. The ex-spouse has moved on, but the angry, vindictive, bitter spouse refuses to put away their negative feelings. I think she needs counseling to know how to manage those feelings.

I know myself and I know this will haunt me in my future. This having being able to get a second chance, even if it did not depend on me. This is why I said it will be painful. Also it will affect my children and I cannot protect them against it.

I do think there are some couples who cause more pain for the children by living together. If there is one parent who can't be loving and nurturing to the MR, and the children observe the animosity .........how will it influence their development, and their relationships in the future? I feel this situation with your W was so unnecessary, and could have been resolved if she would allow her hard heart to soften. But she has chosen to keep a hard heart and let old wounds fester.

There are a few things in life we don't get second changes. I can look back at many things I regret and it could put me in bed, sick in my soul that I did not do a better job. What good would it do me? What good would it do my family? For example, the mistakes I made when raising my children are long past (they are adults now), and there's no going back for a redo. We are not promised tomorrow, we only have today, so let's not waste it by haunting memories of what we did wrong in the past. Learn from the experiences, and don't repeat the same mistakes.

I encourage you to speak to your therapist about learning how to manage your negative thought patterns. For example, you said you "know" not having a second chance will haunt you in the future. It doesn't have to haunt you, Pack. You are setting yourself up by making these type of proclamations. Yes, you may always have regrets over the MR, but it doesn't have to haunt you every day until you die. You can learn how to process and manage your emotional pain, just like physical pain. I've never had cognitive behavior therapy, but the board has had members who did, and had very positive results. I honestly believe your entire life would blossom if you could change the way you think about some of these issues. (((hugs)))

God knows I gave it my best and I meant it when I promised her to love her and grow a family together.

And that's all you could do! No matter how sorrowful you feel about not getting a second chance, you can have peace knowing you tried your best. You have to claim peace, instead of claiming you'll be haunted.

I actually have a lot of hope for you, Pack. Now, when I make that statement.......where does your mind take you? Am I talking about hope for the M? Am I talking about hope for Pack's happiness and peace of mind? What do you think? When you first joined the board, you linked all future happiness to reconciliation of your MR. However, I think you are beginning to grow and can see farther. The need to save your M can blind a person to an extent. Like you, for instance, couldn't or wouldn't process what we told you, b/c all you saw was winning back your W. When that didn't happen, you blamed yourself. Yes, you made some mistakes, like most every LBH. Do I think those mistakes is why reconciliation never came? We'll never know, but just my intuition says your W believed you were the one who should make changes to please her. .......(which was never going to be good enough). You bought into the same mentality and believed you could make changes that would win her back. In the meantime, nothing you did satisfied her, b/c she had hardened her heart too much. What am I saying? It's all on her, now. There has been no reconciliation b/c of her. You tried for a second chance and she was having none of it. You can't make someone love you when they have a closed heart.

[Ginger1]

Honestly pack, I think she is so vindictive because you are still so attached. She still feels trapped and smothered in a way and she’s just going to be mean and vindictive because of that.

I imagine when you truly let go, she will not be so vindictive and mean, and coparenting will eventually happen.

Her vindictiveness is her trying to cut that rope you still have tied to her

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

Sorry I have not replied earlier. I tested positive for covid yesterday and I have had a couple of days with fever. I am in lockdown at home and thank God I did not see my parents except for a walk on the park with the kids. S7 and S2 are with W for 10 days at home and thanks to Pack all of them are getting a PCR test. I am still freaking out on how random this is, I was always proud that my life was between my desk at home and the exercise outdoors. I am a bit concern it might affect how good I was feeling physically but I have had not major symptoms.

I have been thinking a lot on how to face all that is happening and the attitude W has taken about our M and past. I think I need to find myself again and aside from all this desperation and fear I am suffering. The sad thing is that deep in my heart I still think that R would be the best for us four and my head keeps pushing me to fight when I know I should just leave her alone and rebuild myself as a man to 100%.

1. Get into IC. IC is supremely important. It is something I refused to do for years. But when I finally did it, it paid huge dividends in getting me to recognize my lack of empathy, my selfishness, and my bad view of Rs that led me to behave in ways that pushed her away. The beauty of all of that was that these were improvements that would have made me a better person (and spouse) whether she stayed or left! (This includes reading books, and watching self-help videos online! Sometimes those were even prescribed by the IC.)

I am in IC and it has helped me identify many communication and empathy issues but beyond that my IC seems to be focused on making me happy with the idea that W is free to leave me even if she loved me more than anything so I need to be able to live with that and move on. She has also worked with me on many conflict issues and my doubts on striking a balance between my career and the time I spent with my loved ones (majorly the kids).

2. Commit to GAL. I am a huge believer in GAL and I think if more LBSs were better at it then they would be able to move forward in their sitches, regardless of eventual outcome. So many do GAL poorly and get stuck.

The situation is not helping me here. I am stuck at home even for work and W has been going to a new office with new colleagues consistently since she moved back here. I have all the time I spend at sports and with my self improvement books but I am lacking a lot on the social life. I need to think about GAL activities that involve time out with new friends.

3. I would avoid dating and having sex with OW. For me, it would be until I was in a new MR with someone new, but for those with a different worldview, I would say avoid it until you have worked through all of the emotional baggage related to your WAW.

I cannot put myself together for this. I find myself wanting to give my W all the hugs, kisses, intimate moments, dates and all that I did not do when I was so stressed and miserable at home. I miss her smile, her voice, hugging her in bed and her hair all around my face. I know after all she has done I am very pathetic but that is just how I feel and my heart is still with her even when she only wants to hurt me.

4. I would choose an end date. A drop dead date. A date that I could say "I gave it my all for X amount of time, and she has done nothing to suggest she is even remotely interested in recommitting back to marriage." For me it was 1 year post BD. But it could be whatever you can live with. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? It just depends on how patient you are and want to be. But I can tell you, having an end date, for me, was so freeing!

I have that, I have already talked to my L and I have a date on which either something has changed on her side or I will force myself to close the door and erase all the memories that are now pushing me to remain strong.

5. Realize that you will be ok, post D! This is where this forum really came through for me! I got here desperate to save my MR. But the more I embraced my potential fate, and actually started to get excited about it, the better I got at the other aspects of DBing! My mistakes became fewer and farther between. When I consulted with a D lawyer the weight of the world lifted from my shoulders! The more I realized that I was going to be not just fine, but that I was going to flourish post D, the more empowered I felt! This is why I have such a deep admiration for folks like AS, R2C, and LH, because they are out living their best lives and flourishing post D. What inspirations! (There are others too!)

This is something I subconsciously decided the first day I came here and read stories of others. I decided that there were things to change and that I was going to change them to be better off with or without W. I am currently very desperate to change all that is happening and start something new with W but it is just not going to happen and I am struggling so much to accept that...

So since you asked, looking back, this was my pattern. There were lots of starts and stops, so I do not want to give you the impression that I was perfect. You will see one area I really struggled was in snooping. I got better over time, but those first 6-8 weeks post BD I was really bad about snooping on her. I also credit this forum for helping past that obsession (and it was an obsession for me!).

Pack, you are going to be awesome moving forward! No doubt about that.

I talked to W yesterday for the kids and their test. She asked me how I was feeling and I said I was fine despite having some pain and cough. Somehow I thought maybe she would ask me today how I was doing. Obviously that has not happened, she told me last time we exchanged the kids she has answered me all questions about our R and she is not going to say anything new and that is how she feels now. I cannot imagine the mixture of bad feelings she has for me now, I expected more of the person I married to. I expected her to miss me, to talk to me during the separation, to have doubts, to want to spend family time together...

I dont know if she will ever realize the damage she is causing but I expected more from my W. Maybe she felt the same way about me when we were together and I let intimacy go down the drain and now she cannot fight for me because she does not value me at all. I need to leave, for good, and find myself as a man. I am too weak and clingy to be attractive.

Thanks for your help Steve, I can also be a (younger) man of integrity. You always help me, please continue to post!

((hugs)) Pack

[Pack_19]

I have known people like your W who refuse to forgive, put away her anger, and to move forward. It's a fault within themselves. Even if she should marry another man, there will be a part of her that is left with bitterness, and it will, more than likely, affect her other relationships. At first, she'll try to make her new man sound as if he's everything you could not be. (That's just another sign she wants to throw it in your face to hurt you.) It's her vindictive desire to hurt you. Eventually, she'll adapt a negative attitude that all men are alike, meaning they are no good.

Is it your fault that she's filled with vindictiveness? No! Why? B/c every individual has free volition over their behavior. We choose how to act, how to respond, and how to treat other people. Rather than taking responsibility for herself, she has decided to put all her unhappiness on you and make you responsible. Therefore, she walks around feeling justified b/c she can say it's all your fault. In other words, she thinks she gets off free to say & do whatever she wants without any accountability, by blaming you for the past. This attitude carries over to her having OM.

I hear your words Sandi, does this mean she is a bad person or is this the reaction to all those feelings of frustration and loneliness she might have experienced? You should have seen her last time we spoke, with her arrogant attitude telling me I had destroyed everything and these were the consequences of my acts. Then saying she had many new friends because she socialized a lot. How can I be so worthless in her eyes? She knows jealousy and fear of the divorce are my weaknesses right now and she does not miss a chance to use them. As I said above, it is time to find myself again, there is nothing I can do to change her.

I do think there are some couples who cause more pain for the children by living together. If there is one parent who can't be loving and nurturing to the MR, and the children observe the animosity .........how will it influence their development, and their relationships in the future? I feel this situation with your W was so unnecessary, and could have been resolved if she would allow her hard heart to soften. But she has chosen to keep a hard heart and let old wounds fester.

Thanks for the validation Sandi, I have always thought we could easily start something new but now I just look back in time and I think how on earth have we never done anything with the kids or talked on the phone? Did I really pressure that much? there have been times like summer where I totally left her alone to her life and fun. Now with the virus you can imagine a lot of people are calling me and asking how I feel. I have not received a single question from W, how sad is this for our kids? They will not have a healthy love model right now. I am only thinking about her voice and her hair and she cannot send me a message asking me how I am doing...

Learn from the experiences, and don't repeat the same mistakes.

This is written with fire in my head. Thanks a lot Sandi

I encourage you to speak to your therapist about learning how to manage your negative thought patterns. For example, you said you "know" not having a second chance will haunt you in the future. It doesn't have to haunt you, Pack. You are setting yourself up by making these type of proclamations. Yes, you may always have regrets over the MR, but it doesn't have to haunt you every day until you die. You can learn how to process and manage your emotional pain, just like physical pain. I've never had cognitive behavior therapy, but the board has had members who did, and had very positive results. I honestly believe your entire life would blossom if you could change the way you think about some of these issues. (((hugs)))

One of the things I am trying to change in myself is to be more positive and to become a source of encouragement and happiness. As part of this, I want to overcome those thoughts about the past I sometimes have. We have shared so many things Sandi, we traveled the UK by car when we were saving not too much monthly and when S7 was 2-3, we have lived in four different houses, she got her driving license in the UK, we have furnished our home, made good friends, she did an online masters and I got my courses to work where I do now. We moved to Germany, traveled there and across to Austria, she gave birth to S2, we had to learn German, we lived through the snow in winter and went to the lakes in summer. We had an aupair home, she found her first job, we bought a flat... why does she want to convince me all was bad and sad? She can leave and humiliate me but I will not let her speak ill of our M. It is too valuable for me.

And that's all you could do! No matter how sorrowful you feel about not getting a second chance, you can have peace knowing you tried your best. You have to claim peace, instead of claiming you'll be haunted.

When will that peace come Sandi? Am I really such a lousy DBer that I need D myself to move on? Whats wrong with my pride as a man?

I actually have a lot of hope for you, Pack. Now, when I make that statement.......where does your mind take you? Am I talking about hope for the M? Am I talking about hope for Pack's happiness and peace of mind? What do you think? When you first joined the board, you linked all future happiness to reconciliation of your MR. However, I think you are beginning to grow and can see farther. The need to save your M can blind a person to an extent. Like you, for instance, couldn't or wouldn't process what we told you, b/c all you saw was winning back your W. When that didn't happen, you blamed yourself. Yes, you made some mistakes, like most every LBH. Do I think those mistakes is why reconciliation never came? We'll never know, but just my intuition says your W believed you were the one who should make changes to please her. .......(which was never going to be good enough). You bought into the same mentality and believed you could make changes that would win her back. In the meantime, nothing you did satisfied her, b/c she had hardened her heart too much. What am I saying? It's all on her, now. There has been no reconciliation b/c of her. You tried for a second chance and she was having none of it. You can't make someone love you when they have a closed heart.

I know you mean for me as an individual. I feel like I have been played and that is was written that I was going to lose her. At home she said I had to change but she was sure she would never be attracted back to me. Then she told me the only way out was if I agreed with her perception of the M, then she said I hadnt changed and money was still my main worry, then she said if we were ever to R it would be by talking and not seeing a therapist, then she told me I had not changed because I had only accused her or being a bad mother. I never wanted to please her in the sense of transforming myself into something new. I thought she was on fire, she needed peace and quiet and I offered her support expecting that once calmed she would see the value in our M and family. Some of the changes I did thinking of her, surprise her with better sex, better conversation, better understanding when she comes back. Some others like the passion for sports or the promo at work were for me from the very beginning.

I struggle a lot with the idea that she loves the kids above all but she cannot get herself to open a door to the very father of those children. I honestly thought by now she would have seen more on the reality that our M was. I am going to work on myself and finding the man I can be.


P - Running and biking, find new routines to train my muscles. Keep up the good looks and the clothes. Practice my sexual kung fu
I - Promote to L6 at work, get new certifications and continue to read about NMMNG, attraction and how women interact with men.
E - Listen actively to anyone, develop empathy. NC towards W and respect her decision to not start something new. Read DR again, for my own peace. DETACH
S - Be optimistic about my future, accept I cannot control my way out of this.


thanks Sandi!

[SteveLW]

3. I would avoid dating and having sex with OW. For me, it would be until I was in a new MR with someone new, but for those with a different worldview, I would say avoid it until you have worked through all of the emotional baggage related to your WAW.

I cannot put myself together for this. I find myself wanting to give my W all the hugs, kisses, intimate moments, dates and all that I did not do when I was so stressed and miserable at home. I miss her smile, her voice, hugging her in bed and her hair all around my face. I know after all she has done I am very pathetic but that is just how I feel and my heart is still with her even when she only wants to hurt me.

[/quote]

Pack, I understand that very much. However, think about it this way. What if your W were to die, suddenly, instead of BDing. In other words, she was physically gone and you no longer had the possibility of hugs, kisses, intimate moments, dates. Her smile, voice, hugging in her bed and her hair all around your face, all would be gone with no possibility of return. The emotions we feel when a spouse leaves us is very similar to the same emotions if they were to die. But the way forward is the same! Learning to miss those things, be sad that they are gone forever, but moving forward with a focus on ourselves, to deal with the emotional baggage that we might have at our spouse's loss, and getting ourselves to a place where (especially since you are so young!) where you could move on healthy and happy with someone new. That is the point of avoiding dating and having sex until you are fully able to deal with the emotional baggage. Otherwise you will be using it as a way to mask your pain (unhealthy and unhappy), and you will be treating another individual unfairly because you won't be fully available to them emotionally. Lots of LBSs have tried to shortcut that to disastrous consequences. (There are a few examples on this board right now!)

So that is what I mean. There will come a time when you are emotionally ready to venture back into dating, but you aren't there yet. Keep working on you and you will get there.

[Pack_19]

Honestly pack, I think she is so vindictive because you are still so attached. She still feels trapped and smothered in a way and she’s just going to be mean and vindictive because of that.

I imagine when you truly let go, she will not be so vindictive and mean, and coparenting will eventually happen.

Her vindictiveness is her trying to cut that rope you still have tied to her

Hi Ginger1, thanks for the comment. I guess she feels as if I do not let her free from a M were she was not happy. I dont want a W that is tied to me by any kind of rope, I want a W that sees me and wants no other man in her life. I want someone who will value and love me more than I thought possible. I will work on dropping that rope and improving my GAL.

I guess knowing there were no major issued to explain how it all exploded so badly makes me think I am not trying to trap her in something rotten but just trying to show her we had very unfortunate circumstances.

I dont know what is wrong with me honestly. I really love this woman and I have many reasons to believe we could change and be happy and all I have done since this began is pressure her and remind her of all we have and how much I love our kids. I need to get a life and do it now, and a good one, one that allows me to grow again!

Thanks Ginger1!

[Mumin]

The sad thing is that deep in my heart I still think that R would be the best for us four and my head keeps pushing me to fight when I know I should just leave her alone and rebuild myself as a man to 100%.

The most powerful thing for me was to realize, no matter how much I wanted exactly what you described here, I knew it would never be right and it never work unless it came from her.
She HAS to be the one to initiate R or it will NEVER EVER work. Not a chance.
Put that it your mind then no matter how much you want to R, that realization should hold you back.

[sandi2]

I hear your words Sandi, does this mean she is a bad person or is this the reaction to all those feelings of frustration and loneliness she might have experienced? You should have seen her last time we spoke, with her arrogant attitude telling me I had destroyed everything and these were the consequences of my acts. Then saying she had many new friends because she socialized a lot.

IMHO, it's long past a reaction stage. Her actions reflect a desire to see you suffer. These actions have never lessened over the time you've been apart. Without her receiving professional therapy, I don't know that she'll ever try to pull herself out of this pit of bitterness.

Does it mean she's a bad person? All I can say is that she's not the girl you married.

How can I be so worthless in her eyes?

She had some vision of what she thought a MR should be, and when started seeing the other side, she chose to leave instead of giving it another chance. (I don't remember too much being said about how hard she worked to make the MR better.) With the contempt she holds, you will not be able to placate her into seeing you as worthy.
Give it up, let go of the rope, and GAL.

She knows jealousy and fear of the divorce are my weaknesses right now and she does not miss a chance to use them.

I think you know the answer to this ^^^^^^^. She uses your fear as though she is the executioner. You can't change her, b/c this is about her soul/heart...........not you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Stop making this all about you.

Now with the virus you can imagine a lot of people are calling me and asking how I feel. I have not received a single question from W, how sad is this for our kids? They will not have a healthy love model right now. I am only thinking about her voice and her hair and she cannot send me a message asking me how I am doing...

Your problem is still thinking of the two of you as a couple. Try to step back and see her objectively, not as your W. I know you love your children and are concerned about the impact on them. However, I think these feelings of her not checking on you are more about how it makes you feel. And remember, you told her no contact except for kid related......right? Now, if the kids had the virus, that would be another issue, but not checking on you should not be figured into any of this current sitch........other than it shows her lack of concern for you.

One of the things I am trying to change in myself is to be more positive and to become a source of encouragement and happiness.

I understand, Pack. But you can't force happiness on someone who refuses to be responsible for their own happiness. Make sense? No matter how much you want to be a source of happiness to your W, she has the freedom to deny it. This is a fact of life you must accept. You continue to hang on to the idea you can change her mind/feelings, and you can't.

When will that peace come Sandi?

When she is no longer relevant in your perception of who you are currently.

Am I really such a lousy DBer that I need D myself to move on?

Perhaps, but I don't like to identify you as a poor DBer. This sitch has been a painful experience and you feel responsible. You can use this experience as a powerful wake-up to your weaknesses, or you can grieve over the past for the rest of your life. I know you are working hard to improve yourself as an individual man. I also think you are a perfectionist at heart, and you are very hard on yourself when you don't measure up to your own expectations......plus the expectations of others. I know you are very sensitive to the thought of being a failure at anything.

Whats wrong with my pride as a man?

My guess is your fear of failure, loss, and abandonment. You can't see a happy future right now, b/c your fear blinds you.

I feel like I have been played and that is was written that I was going to lose her. At home she said I had to change but she was sure she would never be attracted back to me. Then she told me the only way out was if I agreed with her perception of the M, then she said I hadnt changed and money was still my main worry, then she said if we were ever to R it would be by talking and not seeing a therapist, then she told me I had not changed because I had only accused her or being a bad mother. I never wanted to please her in the sense of transforming myself into something new.

I think this speaks to the nature of your W. Don't be like a trained animal who follows the commands of their owner. You can break free. Haven't you jumped through enough hoops of fire? Just be your own man.

I struggle a lot with the idea that she loves the kids above all but she cannot get herself to open a door to the very father of those children. I honestly thought by now she would have seen more on the reality that our M was. I am going to work on myself and finding the man I can be.

She probably loves her children, but her immaturity and bitter feelings are the motivation behind her actions. You have been cut out of the picture she envisions. She no longer sees the four of you as a family unit. You wanted her to see the value in the M and the possibility of the future. You wanted her to think and feel like you wanted, but she doesn't.

P - Running and biking, find new routines to train my muscles. Keep up the good looks and the clothes. Practice my sexual kung fu
I - Promote to L6 at work, get new certifications and continue to read about NMMNG, attraction and how women interact with men.
E - Listen actively to anyone, develop empathy. NC towards W and respect her decision to not start something new. Read DR again, for my own peace. DETACH
S - Be optimistic about my future, accept I cannot control my way out of this.

Good goals!

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

I hope you are doing great! First some updates on how Pack's life is improving.
I have contacted a couple of driving schools to get the motorbike license and I have my eyes on what is going to be my first motorbike hopefully. I need to sell the house in Munich before I can buy a new car so this is a different path that hopefully will be more affordable.

I have identified three new certifications that will bump my professional profile, two from Amazon and one from Google and I am going for all three of them during this working from home time. I got a call the other day for a job with Apple but the job is in Barcelona and it requires attending the office regularly, I also interviewed with a couple of companies in London and I plan to use this when I need to discuss moving forward in my team this year. When these things happen it makes me question again how my future is going to be and if eventually I will have to decide between my career and spending more time with the kids because obviously our situation as a broken family is not going to change in the mid term. I talked to a friend for 2 hours yesterday and I was talking about choosing between boxing, functional training and crossfit as a new social activity that involves getting in better shape and he recommended crossfit so I am going to call next week to join with an old friend of mine who lives here in Seville. I look forward to meeting new people there.

I finished reading NMMNG and it is amazing the things that I have done in the past and not complained about as well as how I was never able to place myself first. I guess a lot of my barriers had to do with that overwhelming responsibility of maintaining a family since the very first day I started my first job. It is very difficult to think about this and put at one side the side of the story in W's head. I am sure she felt like her life was never going to be the same in the UK or Germany as it could be here, I dont really know and cannot guess now. She mentioned so many times that she could have been happy with me anywhere but that I was the problem that I have started to think by being a nice guy I lost all attraction and respect she could feel about me. Next book on my list, Hold on to your NUTS.

I am ready to set up my picnic and sit down back to the castle she has built. I have been throwing stones for too long. In my picnic I am really good at work and sports, my friends love spending time with me, so do my kids, we laugh and I feel great as a man. In my picnic I save a part of my salary for a sports car and a nice motorbike, I prioritize the time I spend on the bike and running and I read books to improve as a man and lover.

I have two demons fighting inside my head right now. One is telling me the best for us 4 is to find a way to start over, that I should be patient and just do my thing and learn for once how to DB properly and focus on myself. This demon is whispering to me, if you give up now, you will not be able to say I did all I could, because you have been a terrible DBer. Based on my past and my beliefs, this demon is a strong one, is telling me to eat up my pride and fight for this in a new way. The other demon is telling me to stop tolerating this behavior and start respecting me as a man and father. This second one speaks about how long it has been since we are separated and how very few signs of regret I have seen in W, as well as all the manipulation she has used to get her way. The second demon knows I am a great man and I deserve a woman who is crazy about me and would fight until the end of her days to have a great relationship with me. He tells me everyday how little W cares about our M and vows and he is pushing me to find a great live between here and Madrid or London.

I am scared of both of them, the first one has only caused me pain and misery for a year beyond limits. I have gone through something I would not wish my worst enemy to experience, my head is torturing me with memories of the four of us as a family and I have not been able to be the man I used to be even after a year after she left. The second one is pushing me to a new life that I know if I start, it will mean the end of my fight for this, but it scares me because as you know I feel that would confirm my failure to preserve the most valuable thing I had in my life.

I have set a soft deadline in May 2021 and a hard deadline in August 2021. I am finishing DR for the 5th time and I have set new roles for my picnic.

> I will stay strong and calm on every interaction with W, never mention any subject that involves throwing rocks to her castle
> There will be a change in the way we interact, we will talk about neutral subjects
> I am going to find the best version of me and become a confident, attractive and independent man who knows what he wants and goes the extra mile to get it.

Being at home with S7 for 14 days has been amazing. We have bonded a lot and I can tell he laughs with me. The negative aspect has been too much time thinking about the situation, the lack of change in W and how much time it has been since we started living these separate lives. Like I said, its time to lay down my picnic and find the best version of Pack, for my own happiness. Thank you all for your support and help! it means a lot to me!

[sandi2]

WOW!

You surely are an educated and talented man in your field, if so many places in the world to want to employee you. They see your value, and how you would be valuable to their company.

I have contacted a couple of driving schools to get the motorbike license and I have my eyes on what is going to be my first motorbike hopefully. I need to sell the house in Munich before I can buy a new car so this is a different path that hopefully will be more affordable.

That's so great!

I finished reading NMMNG and it is amazing the things that I have done in the past and not complained about as well as how I was never able to place myself first.

Next book on my list, Hold on to your NUTS.

No more Mr. Nice Guy is an eyeopener. I've never read Hold on to Your Nuts, but some of our big league members in the past recommended this book highly.

I have two demons fighting inside my head right now. One is telling me the best for us 4 is to find a way to start over, that I should be patient and just do my thing and learn for once how to DB properly and focus on myself. This demon is whispering to me, if you give up now, you will not be able to say I did all I could, because you have been a terrible DBer. Based on my past and my beliefs, this demon is a strong one, is telling me to eat up my pride and fight for this in a new way. The other demon is telling me to stop tolerating this behavior and start respecting me as a man and father. This second one speaks about how long it has been since we are separated and how very few signs of regret I have seen in W, as well as all the manipulation she has used to get her way. The second demon knows I am a great man and I deserve a woman who is crazy about me and would fight until the end of her days to have a great relationship with me. He tells me everyday how little W cares about our M and vows and he is pushing me to find a great live between here and Madrid or London.

Perhaps you've heard the old tale of the two wolves, which are similar to what you are saying here. The strongest demon will be the one you feed. It will be the one who gains your attention, time, and thoughts. Don't be afraid of either, b/c you are the master of Pack.

You sound much better these days. I always look forward to reading your posts.

((hugs))

[LH19]

Pack,

You often use the term fighting for your marriage. What does that look like to you?

[SteveLW]

I have set a soft deadline in May 2021 and a hard deadline in August 2021.

Can you explain what this means?

[Pack_19]

WOW!

You surely are an educated and talented man in your field, if so many places in the world to want to employee you. They see your value, and how you would be valuable to their company.

Hi Sandi! thanks for the words, yes that has always been one of the things that define me and I think I am doing a good job on it even as of now. Sometimes this whole nightmare makes me forget the value in me as a person.

No more Mr. Nice Guy is an eyeopener. I've never read Hold on to Your Nuts, but some of our big league members in the past recommended this book highly.

It was! things like not tolerating being treated in a poor way at all, putting your needs first and understanding that as a man you should not be scared of expressing your own feelings even when they are negative. What a little book! is on my re-read pile together with The multiorgasmic man. I will let you know how it goes with Holding on to your NUTS.

Perhaps you've heard the old tale of the two wolves, which are similar to what you are saying here. The strongest demon will be the one you feed. It will be the one who gains your attention, time, and thoughts. Don't be afraid of either, b/c you are the master of Pack.

You sound much better these days. I always look forward to reading your posts.

I have read it, as all the golden nuggets from this forum. Still I dont know which one to feed, which one to listen to. To be completely honest with you the way I feel is as if the actions of W are forcing me to feed the second one, even if it is not what I wanted. I also deserve a life, a new start and most importantly happiness!

You often use the term fighting for your marriage. What does that look like to you?

Hi LH! thanks for coming back as always! I thought by being the best version of me and leaving W aside I could discover a new way to fight for my M. Becoming the best version of Pack, being happy and a source of excitement again and really starting to divorce bust properly (seems I have not been able to do it for a year). Being a great father so that she could see no man will ever take my place in the life of our children and most importantly, changing those things in me that led us to where we stand today. In other words, nailing my 50% of the work to get us back in a good place, without throwing rocks at her new life and castle. I guess that is the only last try I have, after that I will get the peace of mind that I gave it the most.

I have re-read DR and I really paid attention this time to the "last last resort", where the book talks about OP and your attitude towards your spouse. So I have cut all communications about the kids that are unnecessary, I will show W there will be no R at all between us if she is not willing to do the work to fix this together and I have set a date in 2 months to file for D and really leave behind all this suffering.

What do you think about this approach? I am most likely going to fail and end divorced but at least I will have Sandi's words in my head that I should claim peace and not guilt.

I joined a crossfit club yesterday and I have started looking at 1 room apartments in Madrid for the end of the year to spend there the weeks I am not with the kids and I cannot wait to go to the office and being with colleagues again. I am in a much better place after the days I had a couple of weeks ago. I dont think about W, OM or D. I am focused on Pack and his life. I also got the manual for the motorbike test and I am going to study it this weekend. I plan to ask for a rise in April this year and I am going to refurbish the bathroom in my home here in Seville to finish the entire project.

I thought my integrity was defined by that of a man who preserves his faithfulness to his M and family but I find myself wanting to meet women. I don't know how to explain it, is as if talking to women who pay attention to you, admire you and enjoy talking to you and laugh with you and it is so freaking intoxicating, not to mention the amount of them out there (yes my eyes are opening).

I should probably get a D as soon as possible, otherwise I will not have the peace of mind to ask any other woman to be in my life. I cannot understand how W has allowed herself to be so cold and distant for such long time. She really must be happier now than she was with me. Right now I just want two big things. First of all I want my brain to stop seeing her as my W, as the woman of my life and my companion in life. Secondly, I want my self esteem and attractiveness back, and I want it now. I am sick of being the shade of the man I was.

I look at many videos from Marni after you guys suggested it. There are many things she talks about that I have always done. I was handy fixing everything at home, I offered to help W fix her things, I took over the responsibility to maintain our family from day 1, and I did not fail to provide any single month, I own my defects and I share them with the people around me and I can be very funny. I am not such a poor man and partner, yes I should have never allowed myself to get so stressed about money and I should have talked to her many more times and I should have read about sex and NMMNG much earlier, but I am doing it now, for my future and improvement.

Please continue to post and help me, your words give me strength to improve as a man and to place my boundaries wrt W.
((hugs)), Pack

[LH19]

[quote=Pack_19] Hi LH! thanks for coming back as always! I thought by being the best version of me and leaving W aside I could discover a new way to fight for my M. Becoming the best version of Pack, being happy and a source of excitement again and really starting to divorce bust properly (seems I have not been able to do it for a year).

Pack if you are going to rate how you are DBing by rather it stops your divorce you will not like the outcome. The vast majority of the people who come here end up divorced.

Being a great father so that she could see no man will ever take my place in the life of our children and most importantly, changing those things in me that led us to where we stand today.

So you are being a great father to get your W back? If that is true she can see right through it.

In other words, nailing my 50% of the work to get us back in a good place, without throwing rocks at her new life and castle. I guess that is the only last try I have, after that I will get the peace of mind that I gave it the most.

I am afraid you are going to be disappointed.

I have re-read DR and I really paid attention this time to the "last last resort", where the book talks about OP and your attitude towards your spouse. So I have cut all communications about the kids that are unnecessary, I will show W there will be no R at all between us if she is not willing to do the work to fix this together and I have set a date in 2 months to file for D and really leave behind all this suffering.

So you will file in May?

What do you think about this approach?

I think it stinks. Approaches, strategies, tricks etc don't work.

I am most likely going to fail and end divorced but at least I will have Sandi's words in my head that I should claim peace and not guilt.

Why would you have guilt?

I thought my integrity was defined by that of a man who preserves his faithfulness to his M and family but I find myself wanting to meet women. I don't know how to explain it, is as if talking to women who pay attention to you, admire you and enjoy talking to you and laugh with you and it is so freaking intoxicating, not to mention the amount of them out there (yes my eyes are opening).

It is intoxicating and the way it should be. Like David Deida says in "Way of a Superior Man", "choose a woman who chooses you". Now can you imagine this type of behavior from your W right now?

I should probably get a D as soon as possible, otherwise I will not have the peace of mind to ask any other woman to be in my life.

You should not D your W to date other women.

I cannot understand how W has allowed herself to be so cold and distant for such long time.

Pack she has to with you because if she shows any warmth you smother her. She is trying to keep you at a distance.

She really must be happier now than she was with me. Right now I just want two big things. First of all I want my brain to stop seeing her as my W, as the woman of my life and my companion in life. Secondly, I want my self esteem and attractiveness back, and I want it now. I am sick of being the shade of the man I was.

You control your thoughts Pack.

I look at many videos from Marni after you guys suggested it. There are many things she talks about that I have always done. I was handy fixing everything at home, I offered to help W fix her things, I took over the responsibility to maintain our family from day 1, and I did not fail to provide any single month, I own my defects and I share them with the people around me and I can be very funny. I am not such a poor man and partner, yes I should have never allowed myself to get so stressed about money and I should have talked to her many more times and I should have read about sex and NMMNG much earlier, but I am doing it now, for my future and improvement.

So why do you think your W doesn't want to be with you anymore?

[Pack_19]

I have set a soft deadline in May 2021 and a hard deadline in August 2021.

Can you explain what this means?

Hi Steve,

The deadline in May meant forgetting any hope about R and lettings things just happen. The deadline in August meant filing myself. The more I think about it the more I think I will just file in May. Not for vengeance or to date other women, because it just does not make sense to remain and feel married to a person who cannot even talk to you. What a bunch of nonsense thoughts...

[Pack_19]

Pack if you are going to rate how you are DBing by rather it stops your divorce you will not like the outcome. The vast majority of the people who come here end up divorced.

Hi LH! I never meant to assess my DB success by means of the outcome of the situation. It is just incredibly hard to see and feel your improvement and yet get no change or hope from your WAW. I know it is the rule, I am just saying it is incredibly hard and I have had many slips were I felt discourage and a failure. It takes two to make a M and a R in this cases, I dont think she will ever do her work, I am trying to be happy now. By focusing on myself, my hobbies, sports, the kids and my career I am making myself a better man, for my future. That would make my a success, come out of this as the best version of Pack!

So you are being a great father to get your W back? If that is true she can see right through it.

No, I am being the best father I can be for my children because they deserve it and I love them and I want them to be happy even with all that is happening.

In other words, nailing my 50% of the work to get us back in a good place, without throwing rocks at her new life and castle. I guess that is the only last try I have, after that I will get the peace of mind that I gave it the most.

I am afraid you are going to be disappointed.

You are right, nothing is going to change, it's been to long and she has chosen her path. Better to focus on my picnic.

So you will file in May?

Yes I will. And I will start to plan my comeback to Madrid when I dont have the kids.

I think it stinks. Approaches, strategies, tricks etc don't work.

Control is an illusion, let go and let life happen... thanks for the honest answer LH!

Why would you have guilt?

Well because I certainly played a part in the downfall of this M and that means I have to take responsibility for that part and change anything that led me to contribute.

It is intoxicating and the way it should be. Like David Deida says in "Way of a Superior Man", "choose a woman who chooses you". Now can you imagine this type of behavior from your W right now?

No, it seems she has chosen another person, which should give me the strength to never look back. I deserve someones who thinks being with me is better than being with anyone else.

You should not D your W to date other women.

I will feel more in peace LH. What do you mean here, that my motivation is wrong or that I can date while married? The motivation would not be that, the motivation would be to break this illusion of a tie between us that is only causing me misery and harm right now. The motivation is to give Pack a blank sheet to write the next years of his life.

You control your thoughts Pack.

And why every single time I see here I just get all these feelings and emotions and the desire to repair this situation? My brain must be very weak in this sense... I am broken inside!

So why do you think your W doesn't want to be with you anymore?

Because she has decided we fought a lot, our kids were growing in a poor environment and we grew to be parents and not partners and she blames me for not changing it on time. LH, because she has chosen to and it is not my job to change her mind.

Thanks a lot for your post!
((hugs))
Pack

[LH19]

Hi LH! I never meant to assess my DB success by means of the outcome of the situation. It is just incredibly hard to see and feel your improvement and yet get no change or hope from your WAW. I know it is the rule, I am just saying it is incredibly hard and I have had many slips were I felt discourage and a failure. It takes two to make a M and a R in this cases, I dont think she will ever do her work, I am trying to be happy now. By focusing on myself, my hobbies, sports, the kids and my career I am making myself a better man, for my future. That would make my a success, come out of this as the best version of Pack!

Pack it is going to take a really really long time for your W to see and trust your changes. I get the sense that you were a jealous and controlling person. Am I wrong?

You are right, nothing is going to change, it's been to long and she has chosen her path. Better to focus on my picnic.

Number one and year and a half is a short time in DB land and number two I suggest you try to forget about the picnic analogy. You seem to get confused when you hear terms here. Just continue to become your best self.

Well because I certainly played a part in the downfall of this M and that means I have to take responsibility for that part and change anything that led me to contribute.

Pack you have 100% owned your side of the street. I understand why you feel the way yo do but no need to feel guilty anymore.

No, it seems she has chosen another person, which should give me the strength to never look back. I deserve someones who thinks being with me is better than being with anyone else.

Yes you do deserve that as does everyone here on the board. You only look back if she taps you on the shoulder.

I will feel more in peace LH. What do you mean here, that my motivation is wrong or that I can date while married? The motivation would not be that, the motivation would be to break this illusion of a tie between us that is only causing me misery and harm right now. The motivation is to give Pack a blank sheet to write the next years of his life.

No I don't think you should date while married. I believe you are thinking of divorcing to date. I don't think you are ready to date right now.

And why every single time I see here I just get all these feelings and emotions and the desire to repair this situation? My brain must be very weak in this sense... I am broken inside!

No! That is how your brain is hardwired right now. It thinks that because you are rejected by your W that you are in danger. Our brains haven't evolved much in the last 10,000 years. Plus I think you are tied to the illusion that you have to have an entact family to be happy. I was that way too. I was never more wrong.

Because she has decided we fought a lot, our kids were growing in a poor environment and we grew to be parents and not partners and she blames me for not changing it on time. LH, because she has chosen to and it is not my job to change her mind.

Did you fight a lot? What did you fight about? What did she want you to change? Why do you think you were so happy and she wasn't in the marriage?

[SteveLW]

I have set a soft deadline in May 2021 and a hard deadline in August 2021.

Can you explain what this means?

Hi Steve,

The deadline in May meant forgetting any hope about R and lettings things just happen. The deadline in August meant filing myself. The more I think about it the more I think I will just file in May. Not for vengeance or to date other women, because it just does not make sense to remain and feel married to a person who cannot even talk to you. What a bunch of nonsense thoughts...

Thanks Pack. I think this is a good change. If you give up hope of R what is left but to file? If you don't think you'll be ready for that by May (and having a second deadline suggests you may not), then just set a date further out (August). I was confused when you said you had dual deadlines.

[Pack_19]

Pack it is going to take a really really long time for your W to see and trust your changes. I get the sense that you were a jealous and controlling person. Am I wrong?

hi again LH, controlling? Yes I have made decisions in the past that have led her to feel controlled, like the time we moved to Germany and she was not sure and I took the lead instead of listening to her. I am really working on that issue, I control my thoughts and my actions only and I will communicate better with everyone in my life. Jealous? I never was, she was unfaithful once as we were dating before S7 was born and that certainly affected my head but I have always had confidence and self worth so I have never been jealous. I am being now because she is out there living the life of a teenager and not caring about our mortgage, the things our kids need... I always imagine the worst and I end up thinking I am paying for half her nice little house where she can be with anyone but me. I will work on this thoughts, but no, I was never jealous.

Number one and year and a half is a short time in DB land and number two I suggest you try to forget about the picnic analogy. You seem to get confused when you hear terms here. Just continue to become your best self.

Consider it done! Thanks for the comment LH, 200% focused on Pack!

Pack you have 100% owned your side of the street. I understand why you feel the way yo do but no need to feel guilty anymore.

I have a lot of guilt linked to having allowed all that has happened and the changes that occurred in my life and career after DB, I think I made many mistakes because of my emotional weakness at that point, this causes me guilt.

No I don't think you should date while married. I believe you are thinking of divorcing to date. I don't think you are ready to date right now.

I am very tired of this and not seeing one tiny sign of change or remorse from her. I want to remain calm and peaceful but 1.5 years of blaming and bringing me down, ignoring me and telling me she owes me nothing, and now there is OM. Enough, yes I am thinking about D to end this nightmare, I dont know if it would be a good decision.

I am not ready to date, I have a lot of thinking to do about Pack and my best version.

Did you fight a lot? What did you fight about? What did she want you to change? Why do you think you were so happy and she wasn't in the marriage?

We did, but I always assumed we were moving forward. We fought about money, the pressure I had to provide a life that we could not afford made us grow apart. She also resented the time I spent at work even if I helped immensely with the kids at home but that was our life. We did not talk like partners and we did not have a healthy sex R where we could talk things openly and she had massive self esteem issues. She also thought I was selfish and arrogant, which I know I am not but somehow she perceived me that way and we always did the same weekend plan, go out for lunch, because she loves it and I was not putting my needs first and covering them. I was happy because I was looking at the long term and I knew it was a phase with the kids and eventually we would have a better R, more time for us and a much better financial situation. She was not happy because our emotional R was terrible, I see it now, I would kill to be given a chance to change it, but that is just not happening.

I have spent hours and hours reading, thinking, analyzing what went wrong, when I was hurting her and when I was being hurt by her, how our lives were focused on the kids, how intimacy went down the drain and how she approached me aggressively to talk these things and I would withdraw. I don't know what else to do beyond making myself and our kids happier...I know nobody said it would be easier, I know 1.5 years is not much, but things are happening that are tearing my core apart. I wish it would end, I think I see D as an end and I want an end, yet I am not ready to give up.

Thanks LH,
You always make me think a lot about my attitude!

[Pack_19]

Thanks Pack. I think this is a good change. If you give up hope of R what is left but to file? If you don't think you'll be ready for that by May (and having a second deadline suggests you may not), then just set a date further out (August). I was confused when you said you had dual deadlines.

I am not ready to give up hope but I need to put an end to this fake link I feel between us while she is behaving the way she is. I can wait until August but it is not going to be with the same attitude. I think I deserve much better than what I am getting from W right now...

[LH19]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

[ovrrnbw]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

LH, not sure if you have ever cheated on a GF or wife. I have made it known before that I cheated on my W when we were dating.

I did see it as wrong at the time. "Cheaters cheat" is not really true. I did it once. I wanted the attention of multiple women that I had when I was single for the couple years before I met my W and began dating. Having multiple women made me feel desirable and wanted.

Most WW see it as wrong too. It is evidenced by their actions. If they believed it was morally right, they wouldn't hide it like they do. A lot of the WW's use the affair as a tool to break their bond with the husband, planning to get obsessed with a new man to forget about their old one. I'm sure many have heard the saying "the best way to get over someone, is to get under someone new". But, as we know, that isn't 100% true. If you haven't spent time alone, you haven't gotten over things, those thoughts and feelings are not fully processed and people will flounder.

That said, I think men and women cheat for different reasons typically. I think you are pretty aware of this but I say this for everyone else reading.

[SteveLW]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

LH, not sure if you have ever cheated on a GF or wife. I have made it known before that I cheated on my W when we were dating.

I did see it as wrong at the time. "Cheaters cheat" is not really true. I did it once. I wanted the attention of multiple women that I had when I was single for the couple years before I met my W and began dating. Having multiple women made me feel desirable and wanted.

Most WW see it as wrong too. It is evidenced by their actions. If they believed it was morally right, they wouldn't hide it like they do. A lot of the WW's use the affair as a tool to break their bond with the husband, planning to get obsessed with a new man to forget about their old one. I'm sure many have heard the saying "the best way to get over someone, is to get under someone new". But, as we know, that isn't 100% true. If you haven't spent time alone, you haven't gotten over things, those thoughts and feelings are not fully processed and people will flounder.

That said, I think men and women cheat for different reasons typically. I think you are pretty aware of this but I say this for everyone else reading.

I am more with LH on this one. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Past behavior is an indicator of relevant future behavior. Whether it was circumstances, mindset, or just the right opportunity, if it was capable of occurring before it isn't a huge leap to think that it can happen again.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways. I have been open about my past alcoholism. This is why I am a strict teetotaler now. I fear that allowing myself one sip will spin me down the path of alcoholism again. I have to be on guard, all the time, to keep it in check. I even told a story recently about seeing a whiskey-flavored ice-cream in the freezer section and suddenly I had a craving for bourbon! I haven't touched the stuff in nearly 30 years.....yet words on an ice-cream carton triggered a physical response. So ovr, I believe you can live the rest of your life without ever cheating again.......but it will require you being committed to that and doing everything in your power to not even start down that road.

[LH19]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

LH, not sure if you have ever cheated on a GF or wife. I have made it known before that I cheated on my W when we were dating.

I did see it as wrong at the time. "Cheaters cheat" is not really true. I did it once. I wanted the attention of multiple women that I had when I was single for the couple years before I met my W and began dating. Having multiple women made me feel desirable and wanted.

Most WW see it as wrong too. It is evidenced by their actions. If they believed it was morally right, they wouldn't hide it like they do. A lot of the WW's use the affair as a tool to break their bond with the husband, planning to get obsessed with a new man to forget about their old one. I'm sure many have heard the saying "the best way to get over someone, is to get under someone new". But, as we know, that isn't 100% true. If you haven't spent time alone, you haven't gotten over things, those thoughts and feelings are not fully processed and people will flounder.

That said, I think men and women cheat for different reasons typically. I think you are pretty aware of this but I say this for everyone else reading.

I am more with LH on this one. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Past behavior is an indicator of relevant future behavior. Whether it was circumstances, mindset, or just the right opportunity, if it was capable of occurring before it isn't a huge leap to think that it can happen again.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways. I have been open about my past alcoholism. This is why I am a strict teetotaler now. I fear that allowing myself one sip will spin me down the path of alcoholism again. I have to be on guard, all the time, to keep it in check. I even told a story recently about seeing a whiskey-flavored ice-cream in the freezer section and suddenly I had a craving for bourbon! I haven't touched the stuff in nearly 30 years.....yet words on an ice-cream carton triggered a physical response. So ovr, I believe you can live the rest of your life without ever cheating again.......but it will require you being committed to that and doing everything in your power to not even start down that road.

I agree 100% with what Steve said.

[ovrrnbw]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

LH, not sure if you have ever cheated on a GF or wife. I have made it known before that I cheated on my W when we were dating.

I did see it as wrong at the time. "Cheaters cheat" is not really true. I did it once. I wanted the attention of multiple women that I had when I was single for the couple years before I met my W and began dating. Having multiple women made me feel desirable and wanted.

Most WW see it as wrong too. It is evidenced by their actions. If they believed it was morally right, they wouldn't hide it like they do. A lot of the WW's use the affair as a tool to break their bond with the husband, planning to get obsessed with a new man to forget about their old one. I'm sure many have heard the saying "the best way to get over someone, is to get under someone new". But, as we know, that isn't 100% true. If you haven't spent time alone, you haven't gotten over things, those thoughts and feelings are not fully processed and people will flounder.

That said, I think men and women cheat for different reasons typically. I think you are pretty aware of this but I say this for everyone else reading.

I am more with LH on this one. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Past behavior is an indicator of relevant future behavior. Whether it was circumstances, mindset, or just the right opportunity, if it was capable of occurring before it isn't a huge leap to think that it can happen again.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways. I have been open about my past alcoholism. This is why I am a strict teetotaler now. I fear that allowing myself one sip will spin me down the path of alcoholism again. I have to be on guard, all the time, to keep it in check. I even told a story recently about seeing a whiskey-flavored ice-cream in the freezer section and suddenly I had a craving for bourbon! I haven't touched the stuff in nearly 30 years.....yet words on an ice-cream carton triggered a physical response. So ovr, I believe you can live the rest of your life without ever cheating again.......but it will require you being committed to that and doing everything in your power to not even start down that road.

Well Steve,

I have to 100% disagree with you. I normally love what you have to say, so this is quite the change. In order to always be a cheater, I'd have to have continued cheating. Since I have not, your statement is not true. If your sentiment is that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, I will have to agree. I didn't even need IC to figure out what I was doing when I cheated when dating.

For me, it was not an addiction, like alcoholism. I did it once, never became addicted, and my brain chemicals were never signaling that this behavior was required for survival to continue, like an addict's brain would.

My point is that there are levels to this. Some people are habitual, repeat offenders, some WS's are naive idealists who think they can be "friends" with people of the opposite sex, some WS's are looking for a way out of their marriage, some make a one time mistake, some are depressed, some have allowed a deep emotional involvement. I think that context matters.

[LH19]

OB,

Good for you to get a handle on it and not cheat again. There are always one offs and there are different kind of cheaters. Some maybe got drunk and had a one night stand and are deeply remorseful. What I am referring to are the ones that have affairs for months/years. Those statistically speaking will cheat again. Mainly I think because they don’t believe they are doing anything wrong. There is always a reason to justify it.

It’s interesting that in Scotty Bs and now Packs sitches it comes out later that both WWs cheater while they were dating. I bet if you dig into the past of most WWs you will find that they have cheated in the past. I know mine did. Not on me that I know of but on another BF. Alcoholics drink, druggies use, gamblers gamble and cheaters cheat.

[SteveLW]

Pack thanks for clarifying things and bringing more insight.

So your W was unfaithful when you were dating.

Cheaters cheat because that's what they do and do not see it as being wrong.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

Just so you know IMO is there is remorse it will be many many years down the road.

LH, not sure if you have ever cheated on a GF or wife. I have made it known before that I cheated on my W when we were dating.

I did see it as wrong at the time. "Cheaters cheat" is not really true. I did it once. I wanted the attention of multiple women that I had when I was single for the couple years before I met my W and began dating. Having multiple women made me feel desirable and wanted.

Most WW see it as wrong too. It is evidenced by their actions. If they believed it was morally right, they wouldn't hide it like they do. A lot of the WW's use the affair as a tool to break their bond with the husband, planning to get obsessed with a new man to forget about their old one. I'm sure many have heard the saying "the best way to get over someone, is to get under someone new". But, as we know, that isn't 100% true. If you haven't spent time alone, you haven't gotten over things, those thoughts and feelings are not fully processed and people will flounder.

That said, I think men and women cheat for different reasons typically. I think you are pretty aware of this but I say this for everyone else reading.

I am more with LH on this one. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Past behavior is an indicator of relevant future behavior. Whether it was circumstances, mindset, or just the right opportunity, if it was capable of occurring before it isn't a huge leap to think that it can happen again.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways. I have been open about my past alcoholism. This is why I am a strict teetotaler now. I fear that allowing myself one sip will spin me down the path of alcoholism again. I have to be on guard, all the time, to keep it in check. I even told a story recently about seeing a whiskey-flavored ice-cream in the freezer section and suddenly I had a craving for bourbon! I haven't touched the stuff in nearly 30 years.....yet words on an ice-cream carton triggered a physical response. So ovr, I believe you can live the rest of your life without ever cheating again.......but it will require you being committed to that and doing everything in your power to not even start down that road.

Well Steve,

I have to 100% disagree with you. I normally love what you have to say, so this is quite the change. In order to always be a cheater, I'd have to have continued cheating. Since I have not, your statement is not true. If your sentiment is that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, I will have to agree. I didn't even need IC to figure out what I was doing when I cheated when dating.

For me, it was not an addiction, like alcoholism. I did it once, never became addicted, and my brain chemicals were never signaling that this behavior was required for survival to continue, like an addict's brain would.

My point is that there are levels to this. Some people are habitual, repeat offenders, some WS's are naive idealists who think they can be "friends" with people of the opposite sex, some WS's are looking for a way out of their marriage, some make a one time mistake, some are depressed, some have allowed a deep emotional involvement. I think that context matters.

Ovr, no problem man. I did say that there are those that can change, sounds like that was you. Your a valuable asset to this forum, and I am glad you being the perspective that you bring! There are always exceptions. There are no absolutes.

[harvey]

Ovr,

I'm glad you have not cheated again since that previous incident, but I tend to agree with Steve and LH on this one. Of course, there are exceptions. From my personal experience there are generally two types of men: men who would never cheat and men who are habitual cheaters. I have many friends who have never cheated, and I have several friends who are habitual cheaters. I only know one person who cheated once, deeply regretted it, and has not cheated since. I'm not saying my word is truth, but it is my experience. I do think it's similar to alcoholism in the sense that once you cross that bridge, you better always be cognizant of not putting yourself in the position to cheat (or drink). One example is having a rule not to have dinner/drinks alone with a female co-worker--no matter the circumstances.

[Mumin]

Just have to quickly add my WW to the bunch.
When we started dating I was actually her EA (2-3 months) before she actually broke off with her current boyfriend.
It was very innocent but if you just look at the pattern it is the exact same thing that happen to me only she isnt 18 anymore, has kids and was married.
I never ever thought of it that way until a few months ago.

[sandi2]

Jealous? I never was, she was unfaithful once as we were dating before S7 was born

Were the two of you just dating.......or were you living together? Big difference there. Your signature information says you've only been married five years, but together for ten. So, S7 was born before you were actually married, right?

First time I remember you ever saying anything about her cheating during that time. Did you react much the same way as when she left you, smothering & pressuring her? Did she have remorse for cheating on you and ask for forgiveness, or did she refuse to talk about it? I'm asking how it was resolved. Do you see any similar actions in your W currently, that you saw back when she cheated on you?

[reason]

Hey Pack, this is my first time posting in someone else's thread. I'm dealing with my own sitch, and while there are some similarities, I thought I would take a minute to post a quick thought. (again.. I'm just a guy, take this with a grain of salt)

It looks like you have a desired outcome in your mind and are basing your thoughts and plans around that. The problem, as I'm coming to accept, is that an M in flux (like yours, and also mine) doesn't care about our thoughts or plans.

The following is based on concepts from a book I read. I've been "gently" reminded about forum rules on sharing titles/authors, so without attributing this.. just understand that these are not necessarily my original thoughts:

I recently read that one of the first steps in overcoming betrayal is forgiveness. What I didn't consider, is that forgiveness has a price. It always does and always will. Our natural expectation is for the other person to pay that price. In my case, I want my wife to be remorseful and show love and affection. That would be the price for my forgiveness. However, she's not willing to pay that, so unless I pick up the tab, she owns my mind. I'm looking for ways to validate actions or signs that she's getting ready to settle up "what's owed". I keep thinking about her words and actions and whether or not they meet the criteria.

The problem here is that she is not in a place mentally where she feels the need to pay that bill. Why? It doesn't really matter. I thought it did. The truth is, she could be in an MLC, a WAW, or just be a terrible person who I never really knew. I like to think I have an idea of which truth is valid here, but there's a likelihood that its none of these or all of them. The fact is, my forgiveness has a price tag and if I want to provide it for her, then that price tag is different. It means part of me has to die. That sounds very dramatic. It is. You have to figure out, what you can kill off inside you that makes this acceptable. If it's romantic feelings towards your W, or the idea of saving your M, or maybe it's your own dignity? Maybe it's something temporary, like your communications with her or plans you might've had.

For me, I have to kill off my anger towards a PA. I have to kill off my expectations. I have to kill off a lack of trust. Man, I need a lot of ammo. This is getting to be an extensive list!

Hold the phone, these are all thoughts. They are all based on my thoughts. They are based on my feelings. So, I can't kill these until I understand how that works.

As we think, we are. It's pretty simple, but when you find yourself thinking about anything in your hit list, you need to change the subject. Skip to another track. For me, going for a run, doing chores, dialing in on some school work, spending time with the kids, etc. are all effective ways for me to change lanes. If you find yourself brooding, or dwelling on what-if, these are groveling thoughts. Thoughts that serve no purpose other than to destroy you from the inside. You can't suffer yourself into a saved marriage. You can't elevate yourself to being a better man while under the weight of all that darkness. Turn your thoughts to productive and good things and your outcome will change. Remember though, that manipulating your W into choosing you, is not a good thing. Having temporary relationships that are only designed to bring you pleasure, is also not good in a wholesome sense. They may be temporarily fulfilling, but in the end, you will be alone again.

Keep working on yourself. Re-define your motivation. Figure out what your driving factor is. It can't be your W or M. It needs to be something that will be implacable. A beacon to help you find your way. You have to be the best "you" so that this M or a future R can be healthy but also, so your life can be healthy.

Best of luck Pack, I really wish you all the best.

[Pack_19]

hi all!
Thanks for all your comments! The week is going good with the kids at home.
I am just going to give a brief update about W. We have no contact and I know she is seeing OM. This situation is just so painful and all that has happened over the last 1.5 years that I am really going to focus on myself now, I need it more than ever.

As we were dating on our 20s she got really drunk on a wedding she had invited me to and spent the night dancing with a guy who was onto her. I have never been the aggressive kind, I told her she was humiliating herself and hurting me and I moved out of the main celebration room. By the end of the night the guy dragged her behind some trees and they kissed just in time for me to see it and go in rage mode. I thought that would be the most painful experience I would have to go through in my life, how wrong I was. She showed remorse, did a lot of things to prove it, but I did not respond and I could not see her for many months because to me she was different in an instant. Eventually, I ended up choosing to give it a second try. She spent the rest of our relationship saying she was young and drunk and nothing major happened with that guy, this last thing is what always hurt me the most. It was a big deal, and she refused to agree to that.

Now to Pack, I am sorting all to have the bathroom refurbished by the end of this month. It is the last touch this house in Seville needs. I started reading "Holding on to your NUTS" and all I can say is that I love it. It is really making me wish I could find something like a better man group here in Spain to talk about all that I feel, for now this board is more than enough. I think a lot about my NUTS and specially liked to what is happening now with OM.

I start today with the motorbike license book and I will start doing tests. Cannot wait to jump on a bike and see how I handle it! hahahaah I am recovering slowly from COVID, when I go running I can keep up the pace but I only run half as long as I used to, this troubles me but I have read many people report similar changes for months.

I talked to my manager about starting to go more often to Madrid, she told me she would help me as much as possible but I need to wait until April for this. I have a lot of anxiety about this because I dont know how much and how they will be able to push to improve my conditions so that I can progressively spend more time in Madrid. The thing that keeps me calm is that she knows the sacrifices I have done for the kids and how isolated I feel here.

I met a woman I really liked on IG, after chatting for a week in a way I thought was really working I got a message form her that she had realized she did not want to meet anyone and wanted to leave things there and focus on her friends. Then she blocked me. I know this should not affect me, it just made me sad because it brings back those thoughts about something being wrong with me in Rs and me not being attractive and fun. Just something I wanted to share here.

I continue to have a great internal struggle between defending my boundaries wrt what W is doing right now and my deep desire to not live with a broken family and only being with the kids half the time. I am starting to force myself to think more about the former, in a way that I put first Pack, my worth as a man and my integrity. On some level it does not feel right but at the same time it helps me get confidence and strength back. How can I be the best Pack if I can only think about the past and I continue to blame myself for all that has happened? It is very sad W has chosen to act the way she has.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

I wanted to give the best to my kids and to her and to do it as soon as possible. Any unforeseen expense as changing the tires of the car would be a problem and then is the issue with all the traveling. We lived abroad but for weddings, holidays and special occasions we had to fly. All of that was on me and I was not strong enough to say now we need to talk because I need to save more and I am very stressed with this situation. Instead I saw myself as a failure if I had to do that.

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

I am thinking a lot about my deadline, I think May, June seems fine. After all she has done, it should only represent signing a paper to me.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

I have confidence and self esteem and she has always had very low self esteem. I am not arrogant, but I would be watching a quizz on tv and give a wrong answer to a question and she would be all like "How can you answer so sure if you dont know it?" and I would say is just my guess for the answer. This is just one of many examples. Selfish? I did many things that led her to feel that way, for example I led our way to Germany following my career development when I should have sat down with her and ask her were she would be happy living. I am working to be a better man in this respect and understand the things I can control and how to cover my needs.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways.

I don't think W has the strength and motivation to do this. I have identified a couple of things in me I really want to work on changing forever. 1. Better control on the things I can influence and my feelings and 2. not chasing anyone who does not have great interest on me.

[Pack_19]

Were the two of you just dating.......or were you living together? Big difference there. Your signature information says you've only been married five years, but together for ten. So, S7 was born before you were actually married, right?

Hi Sandi! Yes we were just dating but in what I thought was a serious R. S7 was born one year before we got married.

First time I remember you ever saying anything about her cheating during that time. Did you react much the same way as when she left you, smothering & pressuring her? Did she have remorse for cheating on you and ask for forgiveness, or did she refuse to talk about it? I'm asking how it was resolved. Do you see any similar actions in your W currently, that you saw back when she cheated on you?

I reacted in the absolute opposite way. I was thinking, she does not deserve me and I am not going to tolerate this from anyone in my life. She did many things and gestures asking for forgiveness but I was not ready to listen, so we spent months being "together" but with a broken R. Then I left to study in the UK thinking I need to move on with my life and dreams and our R was really fixed when with the distance I guess we both missed each other. Then W got pregnant and it brought us closer. After a year in between the UK and Spain I asked her to come live with me, on tears she told me she would not move if we were not married. I told her it was not the time and I was not ready but I ended up giving into her accusations. During that year she also had a "good" male friend from university. I told her that was not tolerable and that she spent far too much talking to him, guess what happened? She told me I had jealousy issues and we had a big argument.

I dont know if she loved me or not, if she ever did or what is on her mind now. I dont want to focus on the bad things that have happened to us in the past. This is why I try not to analyze if she is a cheater or not and why she thinks being with OM is acceptable. Right now I just want to be focused on Pack and improving myself as a man.

[Pack_19]

I recently read that one of the first steps in overcoming betrayal is forgiveness. What I didn't consider, is that forgiveness has a price. It always does and always will. Our natural expectation is for the other person to pay that price. In my case, I want my wife to be remorseful and show love and affection.

Hi reason, thanks for your post. I did also read not long ago forgiveness comes at the price of the forgiver. You know I always thought I was offering her my forgiveness when after all her threats, comments and actions I would stay there talking to her when we exchanged the kids, or offered her to go for a walk. I guess I was very wrong, I can forgive her but I am not sure if that is the man I am and the message I want to send to my kids.

For me, I have to kill off my anger towards a PA. I have to kill off my expectations. I have to kill off a lack of trust. Man, I need a lot of ammo. This is getting to be an extensive list!

For me is the feeling that she is the most important woman in my life and my feelings for her.

Having temporary relationships that are only designed to bring you pleasure, is also not good in a wholesome sense. They may be temporarily fulfilling, but in the end, you will be alone again.

Keep working on yourself. Re-define your motivation. Figure out what your driving factor is. It can't be your W or M. It needs to be something that will be implacable. A beacon to help you find your way. You have to be the best "you" so that this M or a future R can be healthy but also, so your life can be healthy.

Best of luck Pack, I really wish you all the best.

I never wanted temporary relationships, but I am dealing with a lot of loneliness now. It does not scare me, is juts very painful in the same way that it is painful to think about the way W has built a life from scratch as if nothing had happened before and where I am not even a thought.

I have been thinking a lot about something that really pushes me to become that best version of myself. My children, they will learn from me how to be a man and how to act in life. I want to look at them as they grow and see strong, good men and I want to go to bed everyday knowing the person next to me loves me and feeling the same for her. To get there, I must first learn to be happy alone, to love my bright and dark sides and to be a man of integrity and true values.


P - Work on my muscles (crossfit), keep up running and biking, always dress with style and practice the sexual kung-fu
I - Get a couple of certifications at work, promote to L6, continue to read about what makes a loving and strong man and attraction. Get the motorbike driving license
E - Try to active listen to anyone I interact with, detach from W and be cheerful and happy about the things in my life.
S - Surrender to the fact that I cannot control my way out, have a better R with myself and better understand my emotions

NC towards WAW, no R at all, bringing up my boundaries and 200% focused on making Pack the best man I can be! Thank you all!

[LH19]

I recently read that one of the first steps in overcoming betrayal is forgiveness. What I didn't consider, is that forgiveness has a price. It always does and always will. Our natural expectation is for the other person to pay that price. In my case, I want my wife to be remorseful and show love and affection.

Hi reason, thanks for your post. I did also read not long ago forgiveness comes at the price of the forgiver. You know I always thought I was offering her my forgiveness when after all her threats, comments and actions I would stay there talking to her when we exchanged the kids, or offered her to go for a walk. I guess I was very wrong, I can forgive her but I am not sure if that is the man I am and the message I want to send to my kids.

For me, I have to kill off my anger towards a PA. I have to kill off my expectations. I have to kill off a lack of trust. Man, I need a lot of ammo. This is getting to be an extensive list!

For me is the feeling that she is the most important woman in my life and my feelings for her.

Having temporary relationships that are only designed to bring you pleasure, is also not good in a wholesome sense. They may be temporarily fulfilling, but in the end, you will be alone again.

Keep working on yourself. Re-define your motivation. Figure out what your driving factor is. It can't be your W or M. It needs to be something that will be implacable. A beacon to help you find your way. You have to be the best "you" so that this M or a future R can be healthy but also, so your life can be healthy.

Best of luck Pack, I really wish you all the best.

I never wanted temporary relationships, but I am dealing with a lot of loneliness now. It does not scare me, is juts very painful in the same way that it is painful to think about the way W has built a life from scratch as if nothing had happened before and where I am not even a thought.

I have been thinking a lot about something that really pushes me to become that best version of myself. My children, they will learn from me how to be a man and how to act in life. I want to look at them as they grow and see strong, good men and I want to go to bed everyday knowing the person next to me loves me and feeling the same for her. To get there, I must first learn to be happy alone, to love my bright and dark sides and to be a man of integrity and true values.


P - Work on my muscles (crossfit), keep up running and biking, always dress with style and practice the sexual kung-fu
I - Get a couple of certifications at work, promote to L6, continue to read about what makes a loving and strong man and attraction. Get the motorbike driving license
E - Try to active listen to anyone I interact with, detach from W and be cheerful and happy about the things in my life.
S - Surrender to the fact that I cannot control my way out, have a better R with myself and better understand my emotions

NC towards WAW, no R at all, bringing up my boundaries and 200% focused on making Pack the best man I can be! Thank you all!

Pack just out of curiosity how are you practicing your sexual Kung-fu and is it dangerous?

[LH19]

hi all!
Thanks for all your comments! The week is going good with the kids at home.
I am just going to give a brief update about W. We have no contact and I know she is seeing OM. This situation is just so painful and all that has happened over the last 1.5 years that I am really going to focus on myself now, I need it more than ever.

As we were dating on our 20s she got really drunk on a wedding she had invited me to and spent the night dancing with a guy who was onto her. I have never been the aggressive kind, I told her she was humiliating herself and hurting me and I moved out of the main celebration room. By the end of the night the guy dragged her behind some trees and they kissed just in time for me to see it and go in rage mode. I thought that would be the most painful experience I would have to go through in my life, how wrong I was. She showed remorse, did a lot of things to prove it, but I did not respond and I could not see her for many months because to me she was different in an instant. Eventually, I ended up choosing to give it a second try. She spent the rest of our relationship saying she was young and drunk and nothing major happened with that guy, this last thing is what always hurt me the most. It was a big deal, and she refused to agree to that.

Now to Pack, I am sorting all to have the bathroom refurbished by the end of this month. It is the last touch this house in Seville needs. I started reading "Holding on to your NUTS" and all I can say is that I love it. It is really making me wish I could find something like a better man group here in Spain to talk about all that I feel, for now this board is more than enough. I think a lot about my NUTS and specially liked to what is happening now with OM.

I start today with the motorbike license book and I will start doing tests. Cannot wait to jump on a bike and see how I handle it! hahahaah I am recovering slowly from COVID, when I go running I can keep up the pace but I only run half as long as I used to, this troubles me but I have read many people report similar changes for months.

I talked to my manager about starting to go more often to Madrid, she told me she would help me as much as possible but I need to wait until April for this. I have a lot of anxiety about this because I dont know how much and how they will be able to push to improve my conditions so that I can progressively spend more time in Madrid. The thing that keeps me calm is that she knows the sacrifices I have done for the kids and how isolated I feel here.

I met a woman I really liked on IG, after chatting for a week in a way I thought was really working I got a message form her that she had realized she did not want to meet anyone and wanted to leave things there and focus on her friends. Then she blocked me. I know this should not affect me, it just made me sad because it brings back those thoughts about something being wrong with me in Rs and me not being attractive and fun. Just something I wanted to share here.

I continue to have a great internal struggle between defending my boundaries wrt what W is doing right now and my deep desire to not live with a broken family and only being with the kids half the time. I am starting to force myself to think more about the former, in a way that I put first Pack, my worth as a man and my integrity. On some level it does not feel right but at the same time it helps me get confidence and strength back. How can I be the best Pack if I can only think about the past and I continue to blame myself for all that has happened? It is very sad W has chosen to act the way she has.

Why do you think you were trying to live a life you couldn't afford?

I wanted to give the best to my kids and to her and to do it as soon as possible. Any unforeseen expense as changing the tires of the car would be a problem and then is the issue with all the traveling. We lived abroad but for weddings, holidays and special occasions we had to fly. All of that was on me and I was not strong enough to say now we need to talk because I need to save more and I am very stressed with this situation. Instead I saw myself as a failure if I had to do that.

Pack I am not saying you are not ready to D. Only you know if you are ready. I just don't think you should D to date.

I am thinking a lot about my deadline, I think May, June seems fine. After all she has done, it should only represent signing a paper to me.

So no truth to be selfish and arrogant?

I have confidence and self esteem and she has always had very low self esteem. I am not arrogant, but I would be watching a quizz on tv and give a wrong answer to a question and she would be all like "How can you answer so sure if you dont know it?" and I would say is just my guess for the answer. This is just one of many examples. Selfish? I did many things that led her to feel that way, for example I led our way to Germany following my career development when I should have sat down with her and ask her were she would be happy living. I am working to be a better man in this respect and understand the things I can control and how to cover my needs.

Now, I do believe people can be remorseful and really change. It i just that it tends to be a very small % of the population that can do this in meaningful ways.

I don't think W has the strength and motivation to do this. I have identified a couple of things in me I really want to work on changing forever. 1. Better control on the things I can influence and my feelings and 2. not chasing anyone who does not have great interest on me.

So Pack you say you have have a lot of confidence and self esteem but your actions say otherwise. Maybe something to address in IC.

[Pack_19]

Pack just out of curiosity how are you practicing your sexual Kung-fu and is it dangerous?

Hi LH!
So the book about multiorgasmic man has all these breathing and muscular exercises to gain better control over ejaculation and so on. Then you have a lot of content on healthy masturbation and understanding your body in a better way. When I am in between physical exercise or have some calm time or in bed, I repeat these exercises. I have not been able to test if they work as I am not seeing anyone so my sex life is non existent but I can say there have been good results when alone! hahaha

So Pack you say you have have a lot of confidence and self esteem but your actions say otherwise. Maybe something to address in IC.

I always had very strong self esteem except when it comes to women. Is like I always thought I was not too attractive or really understood how women work. In all other aspects, I have never doubted my worth as a man. This is why for me it has been so revealing to learn from the books you recommend here about women and relationships. I think that feeling of me not being attractive is what has led me to chase and bother W. I will work on that.

I dont understand how it has been so easy for W to put behind our M, the 10 years of memories and shared value we have. I know I cannot change that, it just hurts immensely. Also the feeling of being force to stop seeing W as the woman of your life because of her actions, that is very hard in the presence of a broken family.

Thanks LH!

[LH19]

I don't understand how it has been so easy for W to put behind our M, the 10 years of memories and shared value we have.

So Pack first you don't really know if this is easy for her or not she is never going to show you her true feelings. Second she has been probably detaching from you and the marriage for years and you just were not aware. Third it sounds like your marriage wasn't very good dur to the constant arguments and lastly she knows she can have you back whenever she wants. So right now she has a free pass to pursue other relationships.

There are many dynamics that I have learned in the last five years. Rejection breeds obsession, the one who cares about the relationship the least is the one in control and the pursuit and distance dynamic. You are experiencing all of these right now and it is mainly because of your belief that in order to be happy you have to be in an intact family. You have to change this line of thinking because it's simply not true.

[SteveLW]

Hey Pack, your wedding story really hit home for me, and brought back a memory. I'll go ahead and share because I think it makes an important point about attachment, boundaries, deal-breakers, etc.

In my mid-20s, I dated a lot of women. I was a very well employed bachelor, living on my own. I look back at those days as my "eligible bachelor" days and it literally drew women to me like a moth to a flame. I dated a lot, but didn't have Rs with many because, as I have stated multiple times on this forum, I was still hung-up on my ex-gf. by my mid-20s we had been doing the on-again, off-again dance for going on 15 years, but around this time I started to wake-up to the fact that she was keeping me hanging, making me her back-up plan, and that I couldn't trust anything she had to say.

(As an aside, it was about the time I met the girl for the story below that my ex called me one night and we had a 2 hour phone conversation about how her then bf was taking a job out of town, she wasn't going with him and she wanted to be with me. She was tenacious, not letting me off the phone, talking about how she missed kissing me and that she couldn't wait to be with me, etc. I hung up on cloud 9 thinking that it was finally going to happen, us getting back together this time for the long haul. Two weeks later she called me again. She was very coy, stuck to small talk. Finally I said, "so what happened to the job?" She said, "what job?" I said "The job X was taking out of town." Her: "Oh he turned that down." Coyness explained!)

So I had started dating just about every woman I came into contact with that I was attracted to. After years of not dating, waiting for my ex, I was ready to meet and date as many women as possible to make-up for lost time! Plus it kept me busy. It was pretty easy, I had been working out like a fiend when not at work, I was in the best shape of my life, I even had Brad Pitt abs! I met this younger woman (I was about 26, she was 21.) She was really cool. She had shorter hair than I generally liked, but she had the athletic build I was attracted to. I always preferred athletic, softball/volleyball and dancer body types. So she was cute and built like what I preferred. And she was one of the coolest women I ever met. Former athlete (she had torn up her knee ending her sports life), and loved watching sports. She was as knowledgeable about sports as any women I've ever met.

We went to the movies for our first date. The night ended with me dropping her off at home (she still lived with her parents), and we had a romantic kiss to part. Our second date she invited me to a Halloween party. I really liked her on our first date so I quickly accepted. The evening of the Halloween party she called me and said she understood if I didn't want to go since I wouldn't know anyone but her there. 1st red flag. I assured her that she was the only person I needed to know, and that I would enjoy being her date. She seemed to like that answer, but I should have seen it as a bigger sign in hindsight.

We got to the party early, we were the only ones there. She knew the people hosting it so it wasn't that big of a deal. Except, that she left me, still not really sure where she disappeared to, and so I was left hanging out in the basement where the party was at, with the guy hosting. It was awkward but we made small talk. 2nd red flag. By time the party started, the place was filling up. She had come back and was clinging to me, but she was also hitting the beer pretty hard. Being dry for several years now (and she knew I was a recovering alcoholic) I found the behavior odd, but chalked it up to her being 21. She also knew I wasn't much of a dancer, but apparently she loved to dance so she hit the dance floor with her friends and she seemed to be having a good time. There were several times where her and her friends hung out with me, and their respective dates, and the conversation seemed to be going well.

Then a song they loved came on and she hit the dance floor again. But this time she was dirty dancing with a guy that was on the dance floor. Red flag #3. Now I was starting to figure out how to make my exit. She had come with me, but she certainly had plenty of friends and we were only a few miles from her house. The dirty dancing with the other guy continued for several songs. And when it finally ended she came over to me and said she would be "right back". Her and dirty dancer partner then disappeared. Red flag #4. By then I was over it and really wanting to get out of there. It seemed like forever that she was gone, but in reality it was probably only about 30 minutes. I figured out later they had probably gone outside to smoke (something I discovered that night she did "when she was partying"), but who knows what else happened. At that point I no longer cared. When she finally reappeared she was apologetic, but I immediately said "I am going to get going." She looked a little sad, and I asked "Are you okay to get a ride home from someone?" She said that wouldn't be a problem. I said: "Great! Goodbye." She insisted on walking me out to my vehicle. When we got to the vehicle I said: "Have fun" and she tried to pull me in for another kiss. Knowing she disappeared with another guy and her smelling like alcohol and cigarettes, I was not really into a romantic kiss, so I gave her a quick peck, and jumped in my truck and got out of there. She was still standing on the sidewalk as I drove away, and she looked like she was regretful.

I never called her again. She called me one time about a week after that, and left a message on my answering machine. I deleted it and never looked back.

The point about all of this is that we get a lot of LBSs here that have stories like this about their WAS! I struggle a lot with that. I mean if they will do this kind of thing while you are dating, how do you think they won't do it to you after you've been married for a while? Red flags should not be smoothed over when dating someone. This was our second date. That is when the "on your best behavior" period is usually in full force. Luckily for me I stuck to my boundaries, and I stuck to a deal-breaker. For me that kind of behavior with another guy was unacceptable. Disappearing and doing who knows what was unacceptable. Obviously, I think she didn't want to be "tied down" at the party which is why she tried to get me to not go, after inviting me, but the fact she had the audacity to try to kiss me and to call me after all of that really made me shake my head. Why would I continue with a person that was going to behave that way so early on in a potential relationship? Let alone eventually marrying her? Not a chance.

Maybe she was just young, I don't know, but there was no chance I was ever going out with her again after that. Pack I know you said that you waited months before giving her another chance. But the fact that she never dealt with it properly seems like something you now look back and acknowledge was a huge red flag! Can I ask, did she continue to drink to the point of excess after that? Because frankly, if I were you, I would have worried every time that she got drunk she was going to go off and make out with another dude.

Sorry for the long post! But I really wish some of our non-married posters would read stories like this and realize that they've been given a gift of seeing who their SO is BEFORE they make a life-long commitment to them.

[Traveler]

Steve, funny story! It sounds like she wasn't at a point in her life where she wanted a monogamous relationship and you were--glad you were able to walk away and find what you needed.

[Traveler]

I don't understand how it has been so easy for W to put behind our M, the 10 years of memories and shared value we have.

So Pack first you don't really know if this is easy for her or not she is never going to show you her true feelings. Second she has been probably detaching from you and the marriage for years and you just were not aware.

Yes! When I was a WAH, it may have seemed sudden to my wife, but I'd been giving the relationship time for 18mo before I finally stepped away. Your grief and hers are likely just on different timelines.

[Traveler]

I always had very strong self esteem except when it comes to women. Is like I always thought I was not too attractive or really understood how women work. In all other aspects, I have never doubted my worth as a man. This is why for me it has been so revealing to learn from the books you recommend here about women and relationships. I think that feeling of me not being attractive is what has led me to chase and bother W. I will work on that.

Hi Pack, hmm.. I question this story that your choices were driven by a Pack who had an amazing life solo and was only insecure around women. If you were amazing on your own, you wouldn't accept someone into your life who brought down the quality of your life--even if they were your only option. This reminds me of when I was a child, a saying, "I wouldn't date you if you were the last person on Earth."

[Pack_19]

Sorry for the long post! But I really wish some of our non-married posters would read stories like this and realize that they've been given a gift of seeing who their SO is BEFORE they make a life-long commitment to them.

Hi all! Firstly LH thanks a lot for your comment, I know my happiness is not linked to a traditional family. As days go by, and W continues to behave the way she does, I see it more and more obvious.
I am no longer her safety net, there is a seed growing in my head and my heart, that I deserve better, that I will not tolerate what she is doing with our M and family. Yes we had issues, does that mean she gets to blame it all on me, destroy our life and run away with OM? No!

Steve, I can give you a list of red flags.
1. wedding story
2. yes she loves going out and dancing, and she used to drink a lot before we were on a long R. When we were dating, once I planed a weekend at the beach with her, she went out the night before with friends and did not show up Saturday morning. I spent the whole Saturday playing the PS and feeling like crap.
3. The day I gave her the engagement ring after a romantic walk in the Alcazar in Seville and italian dinner, she went to the wedding of one of her best friend's sister (a friend's SISTER!!!). The day after I took S7 (who back then was a baby) to a walk to the park. I should have asked her for the ring back and cancelled everything.
4. Guess the first thing she did after our S when we came to Seville? Build a super-single life with her support cousin, going out when I had the kids and (yes you guessed it) drinking again (after S2 was born she stopped all alcohol even with beer)

I have an amazing job and I am a rock physically now, seriously, what the hell am I doing chasing this? To answer to LH, it was the pressure with my children and giving them what is "best" what led me to all the pursue.

I try to never think about these red flags because I think focusing on the bad things is just the easy way out for me. I hope you all can continue to help me and understand me.

Thank you all, please keep posting. ((hugs)) Pack

[harvey]

Hi LH!
So the book about multiorgasmic man has all these breathing and muscular exercises to gain better control over ejaculation and so on. Then you have a lot of content on healthy masturbation and understanding your body in a better way. When I am in between physical exercise or have some calm time or in bed, I repeat these exercises. I have not been able to test if they work as I am not seeing anyone so my sex life is non existent but I can say there have been good results when alone! hahaha

I think dudes just need to get out of their own heads in regards to sex. Thinking/worrying about your performance should be avoided. Positive thoughts. And avoid too much masturbation. That can numb your member and affect performance.

[LH19]

Hi LH!
So the book about multiorgasmic man has all these breathing and muscular exercises to gain better control over ejaculation and so on. Then you have a lot of content on healthy masturbation and understanding your body in a better way. When I am in between physical exercise or have some calm time or in bed, I repeat these exercises. I have not been able to test if they work as I am not seeing anyone so my sex life is non existent but I can say there have been good results when alone! hahaha

I think dudes just need to get out of their own heads in regards to sex. Thinking/worrying about your performance should be avoided. Positive thoughts. And avoid too much masturbation. That can numb your member and affect performance.

I agree with Harvey. Just don’t be selfish and make sure momma gets hers and the rest will work itself out.

[Traveler]

Yes! Being great in bed isn’t complicated. Strive to ensure you’re both pleased, be creative and try new things instead of being formulaic, and communicate about what you each enjoy.

Work on that self-esteem! That takes time to improve.

[sandi2]

I understand you don't want to focus on bad things that happened in the past, but you should have initially told us she had cheated on you. It significantly changes the picture, IMHO. We spent many months viewing this as a WAW sitch!

All this time you have been obsessed with her (b/c she rejected you), and you couldn't understand why she would act the way she does. Why couldn't you have just been honest with us?

I reacted in the absolute opposite way. I was thinking, she does not deserve me and I am not going to tolerate this from anyone in my life.

That's exactly the way you should have handled it this time!

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

Thanks for all the comments again! I don't worry too much about that but I was never the one to last too long and W was not very understanding. She would instead act upset. It created a kind of fear in me, I wanted to have way more sex but I felt like I was going to let her down. It is hard to explain, anyways, these exercises and keeping a healthier mind as you say will help me!

I understand you don't want to focus on bad things that happened in the past, but you should have initially told us she had cheated on you. It significantly changes the picture, IMHO. We spent many months viewing this as a WAW sitch!

All this time you have been obsessed with her (b/c she rejected you), and you couldn't understand why she would act the way she does. Why couldn't you have just been honest with us?

Hi Sandi! Apologies if I give the impression of hiding that, I never intended to. It happened as we were 20, she got really drunk and then spent moths trying to apologize but as I said I was not ready to listen. I thought it was a totally different thing because now we were 29 and had two kids and a family life that has nothing to do with the situation back when we were dating. Maybe is the way I perceive it, I am just trying to explain why I did not give it so much importance.

Could you explain why you feel this changes the picture? How something that happened so long ago impact this? Is she really not behaving like a WAW?

I have tried to give you all the truth but I just never went before us getting married. One day at home in Munich when we were in our domestic separation she told me she thought I had been paying her back for what happened that day. She said this full of bitterness.

That's exactly the way you should have handled it this time!

I know, but it does not feel the same when you are young and have no responsibilities to tell a GF, screw you I will not tolerate this behaviour, and to do the same with your W and the mother of your 2 children when you have a family and a life with them.

I have started to work very strongly on NC, I do not stop a second when we exchange the kids and I ignore her PM when she complains about me not being available every time she calls the kids (I just dont have my phone on me 100% of the time). I ask them to call her later or send her a voice note.

I am reading Holding on to your nuts and I am very focused on me now. I think a lot about how long it has been since this began. I can see many changes in me I want to keep as a man, but I am scared my mind will never be able to put a healthy end to this suffering I have inside. I cried this morning while having breakfast after I left the kids at school, I have been feeling very lonely lately but I try to use it as motivation to push me to be happy alone, single, divorced or whatever is it that I am now.

Thanks a lot for all your posts and support! It means a lot to me!
((hugs)) Pack

[SteveLW]

That's exactly the way you should have handled it this time!

I know, but it does not feel the same when you are young and have no responsibilities to tell a GF, screw you I will not tolerate this behaviour, and to do the same with your W and the mother of your 2 children when you have a family and a life with them.

So what would she have to do before it trumped being your W and mother of your 2 children? Sleep with more than one other guy? Where do you draw the line that being your W and mother of your 2 kids no longer gives her a pass?

I am reading Holding on to your nuts and I am very focused on me now. I think a lot about how long it has been since this began. I can see many changes in me I want to keep as a man, but I am scared my mind will never be able to put a healthy end to this suffering I have inside. I cried this morning while having breakfast after I left the kids at school, I have been feeling very lonely lately but I try to use it as motivation to push me to be happy alone, single, divorced or whatever is it that I am now.

Being sad and lonely is part of the journey. No one on this board ever says that the journey to better days in the future won't have pain. It is kind of like road construction. They put up signs that say: "Short-term inconvenience mean long-term relief!" You will feel sad. You will feel lonely. But that short-term pain will lead to long-term being stronger, happier and more awesome. So when sad and lonely remember that it is a temporary state.

It makes me think about the show Everyone Loves Raymond. Raymond is talking to his single brother that lives alone, and they are comparing who has it worse. Raymond says to him in the discussion: "You are lucky, at my house I am just happy if I can get 5 minutes in the bathroom alone without maniacs pounding on the door!" So look at the bright side of being on your own. I was a bachelor for several years before I met my W. I remember as we got more serious I actually struggled with her being there so often, and not having "my space". Enjoy your "space"! (I know, easier said than done.)

[sandi2]

Hi Sandi! Apologies if I give the impression of hiding that, I never intended to. It happened as we were 20, she got really drunk and then spent moths trying to apologize but as I said I was not ready to listen. I thought it was a totally different thing because now we were 29 and had two kids and a family life that has nothing to do with the situation back when we were dating. Maybe is the way I perceive it, I am just trying to explain why I did not give it so much importance.

Okay Pack. I'm trying to understand. I still don't understand what you mean by being "together" for 10 years (five of those have been a MR), and your son was born a year before the M. So, you weren't in a committed relationship with her, until she got pregnant? It was nothing more than just dating? Had either of you expressed being in love (before she got drunk and was with OM)? B/c if there were no words of love exchanged and no "understanding" that it was an exclusive dating relationship, would she not have been free to see other guys? If it was nothing more than going out on dates like single people do..........I don't think it could be seen as her cheating. But regardless of what to call it, her actions that night were highly inappropriate, even if she was in no type of R or showed up at the party without a date! This one act showed how little she respected herself, and it showed how little she respect the guy who took her to the party (Pack). Obviously, you took her actions as cheating at the time. At the least, you thought you deserved someone better than this gal. She either saw it as cheating, also, or else she knew she had messed up big time..... enough to continue apologizing and trying to make up. Funny how you were able to let it go and put it in the past, but she felt bitter at you b/c she thought you were trying to pay her back.

I only have your side of the story, but I'll tell you how this sitch looks to me. I think you are the type of man who likes setting goals and working on yourself to be at the top of your game. I see your W as being self-centered and somewhat immature. She thinks she should have your undivided attention, which is impossible if you are going to provide for your family. Instead of taking responsibility for her failures, she blames everything on you. Therefore, she doesn't grow and develop into a better individual. She likes being a party girl, and maybe that's her little hidden secret.......that she has a bit of wild side that wants to come out. IDK, but rather than take responsibility and do something about her drinking, it's easier for her to blame someone else. A lot can be determined by a person when you look at the friends they hang out with, whether drunk or sober.

The tragedy in all of this (besides how it effects the kids) is that you have totally believed everything she said about you. She filled your head with so much negative talk about your failures as a H, and you bought into the lies. Recently, you have been able to see some personal growth and your posts are sounding better........and I think part of it is due to having NC with the person who is toxin. I notice you've said you are working on NC, so that makes me think you still struggle with it. Nobody said it would be easy, but once you realize you need some of the attitude of that 20 yr old guy, who saw himself deserving better than someone like her......won't you be able to let her go? That's your problem in a nutshell. You won't let her go. Instead of seeing her objectively, you see it as your personal failure. That is what I've read between the lines from day one. Based on how you like to be the best you can at whatever you do, it's very difficult for you to accept this type of "failure". I know all your arguments about kids, responsibilities, family, etc. I agree whenever there is a family, it's more serious and there are more responsibilities, than when you were younger and single. Most of your DBing was done with the idea if you worked hard enough and became good enough .......you could save the MR. I think you might agree it didn't work. As long as there is two people in relationship, there's always a chance that one of them will not cooperate, no matter how much you change for the better. Therefore, I think you have to look at the root cause for these problems. The root issue started before the marriage took place. Your W did not respect you before the M, and she doesn't respect you now. I don't really see that changing, b/c I think it is a problem in her. It's b/c of who & what she is as a person, and it would require work she wouldn't be willing to do.

You can't improve yourself as her H, b/c she's not going to let you be her H. However, you will always be a man, and a father. I think you are finally seeing this is true, and you are realizing you've got to build a life without her. Although it's still painful, you are getting stronger. In the beginning, you were probably told you can't fix her. I think you are closer to believing it today than when you first joined the board.

((hugs))

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

I hope you are doing fine! Short update on Pack, I started working on the second course on ML within our company and it has a competitive rankling I am giving it all to finish at the top. I also went to my first crossfit session today I loved it. I have great hopes for meeting people and improving physically there.

Last Sunday I did 55 Km on the bike, on mud and offroad and I had fun like a boy. The project in Israel was a success but I am concerned it might not be enough to ask for the raise I wanted to ask for in April so that I can be in a better financial situation to eventually start going to the office by the end of the year when I don't have the kids.

I can say I am proudly NC, I think W is seeing OM but I am focused on me and growing from all the suffering I have gone through. Last Sunday, as I was leaving the kids, S2 was crying because he did not want to go and S7 had a very sad gesture. I know this is temporary but I need to write it here because it still amazes me how coldly she behaves and how she has wiped me out of the pic and does not care about the status of our family. I am sorry if I repeat this a lot, it hurts beyond words can explain. I left them and went to see some friends, tears in me eyes as I drove away. I need to grow stronger.

There is a voice growing in my head telling me I deserve more, better and I cannot tolerate what W is doing now. Not only for my personal boundaries and mental health, but also for the message I am sending to my kids. I know, they are too small, but one day they will understand and I have to be a model for them.

I know I idealized her and our family but it really was something worth fighting for, our children deserved a loving family with a great example of how to love your partner from us. I cant get rid of the feeling that I failed, that I pressured her too much and that I made many mistakes along 2020 but at the same time she has given me not the slightest option to turn this around. I think a lot about my boundaries, my NUTS and the deadline I have in May this year.

[

So what would she have to do before it trumped being your W and mother of your 2 children? Sleep with more than one other guy? Where do you draw the line that being your W and mother of your 2 kids no longer gives her a pass?

Hi Steve, one OM is enough. I don't know how many there have been but one is enough to make me realize we do not share values about what the S means and what protecting and preserving our family requires. I feel like I lost a whole year, despite all my changes, I stopped my life and career after believing a lot of BS from W and turning myself into a monster and inept H.

Being sad and lonely is part of the journey. No one on this board ever says that the journey to better days in the future won't have pain. It is kind of like road construction. They put up signs that say: "Short-term inconvenience mean long-term relief!" You will feel sad. You will feel lonely. But that short-term pain will lead to long-term being stronger, happier and more awesome. So when sad and lonely remember that it is a temporary state.

It makes me think about the show Everyone Loves Raymond. Raymond is talking to his single brother that lives alone, and they are comparing who has it worse. Raymond says to him in the discussion: "You are lucky, at my house I am just happy if I can get 5 minutes in the bathroom alone without maniacs pounding on the door!" So look at the bright side of being on your own. I was a bachelor for several years before I met my W. I remember as we got more serious I actually struggled with her being there so often, and not having "my space". Enjoy your "space"! (I know, easier said than done.)

I understand it is part of the journey but it feels as if I lost this war. I keep thinking about the value in all we had built, the things I achieved for my family, all the memories we shared and the incredible experience of having kids and seeing them grow and love you and drive you crazy. Meanwhile she is out there meeting guys and pretending her life has started now. I know this is my mind thinking the wrong way but I cannot help it, my feelings and my values push me to defend the value in all we had.

I am trying to enjoy my space more and more. My friends make jokes about how much I exercise, I am watching videos about the things `i love and saving for the motorbike and the new car as I always wanted. I am also enjoying the freedom of coming and going at any time I want when I dont have the kids and I try to talk to women to practive my new emotional skills and active listening and to improve my self esteem.

My thoughts are changing, slowly, but they are changing and W could get as many OMs as she wanted, it does not change what is in my blood and it does not define Pack as a man who was left behind by his W. Pack is a great guy, he is successful at work, he has 2 kids who adore him, he is healthy, responsible and well educated, he takes care of his looks and has goals and ambition. Pack is a great guy, not just a LBS.

Thanks Steve, please keep posting! ((hugs)) Pack

[LH19]

I can say I am proudly NC, I think W is seeing OM but I am focused on me and growing from all the suffering I have gone through.

Come on man we know where your focus is Pac.

Last Sunday, as I was leaving the kids, S2 was crying because he did not want to go and S7 had a very sad gesture. I know this is temporary but I need to write it here because it still amazes me how coldly she behaves and how she has wiped me out of the pic and does not care about the status of our family. I am sorry if I repeat this a lot, it hurts beyond words can explain. I left them and went to see some friends, tears in me eyes as I drove away. I need to grow stronger.

Pac this is all part of the process.

There is a voice growing in my head telling me I deserve more, better and I cannot tolerate what W is doing now.

Listen to that voice.

I know I idealized her and our family but it really was something worth fighting for, our children deserved a loving family with a great example of how to love your partner from us.

You can show your children that with another partner.

I cant get rid of the feeling that I failed, that I pressured her too much and that I made many mistakes along 2020 but at the same time she has given me not the slightest option to turn this around.

Because your W is gone Pack and probably will be for a really long time.

I think a lot about my boundaries, my NUTS and the deadline I have in May this year.

Soooo..........

I understand it is part of the journey but it feels as if I lost this war. I keep thinking about the value in all we had built, the things I achieved for my family, all the memories we shared and the incredible experience of having kids and seeing them grow and love you and drive you crazy.

Pack lots of "I's" in that last paragraph.

Meanwhile she is out there meeting guys and pretending her life has started now. I know this is my mind thinking the wrong way but I cannot help it, my feelings and my values push me to defend the value in all we had.

Again this is all about what you want

[Pack_19]

Hi Sandi! thanks for keeping up with my posts. Your words always help me!

Okay Pack. I'm trying to understand. I still don't understand what you mean by being "together" for 10 years (five of those have been a MR), and your son was born a year before the M. So, you weren't in a committed relationship with her, until she got pregnant? It was nothing more than just dating? Had either of you expressed being in love (before she got drunk and was with OM)? B/c if there were no words of love exchanged and no "understanding" that it was an exclusive dating relationship, would she not have been free to see other guys? If it was nothing more than going out on dates like single people do..........I don't think it could be seen as her cheating.

We were in a serious R, committed and exclusively since the end of 2009 and this happened in Sep 2011. It was not casual dating. We continued together all through university and when I left to the UK to study my MSc. Then she got pregnant the year of my MSc and S7 was born 2 months after I started my first job. I told her to move in with me to the UK and that I would help her finish her studies but she replied that she would only do that if we married and that if we didnt get M I was not in love with her. I told her I loved her but I wanted to pay for things in my wedding and it was not the time for me, I asked her to come and eventually I thought, I love her and we have a son. I want to live with them so let's get married and start a life in the UK.

Then all the pressure in my head started, I was feeling bad because she was home with S7 and I wanted her to be free to pursue a career but at the same time I asked her to help (maybe not in the most empathic way) because nursery was incredibly expensive. I then became a war horse to provide for them and I let our emotional R and our private time die as we also had a baby in between taking a lot of time and attention from us. You know the rest of the story. I know my part, I hope I am not giving the impression of telling my side. She was in a foreign country as a mom, at home and she must have felt very lonely when I focused on work and my career. It is so frustrating that we cannot have these conversations now, I dont know if by now I want a change of heart in her, after all she has done... but cutting like she has without talking about this with someone to help us, I think it is sad.

But regardless of what to call it, her actions that night were highly inappropriate, even if she was in no type of R or showed up at the party without a date! This one act showed how little she respected herself, and it showed how little she respect the guy who took her to the party (Pack). Obviously, you took her actions as cheating at the time. At the least, you thought you deserved someone better than this gal. She either saw it as cheating, also, or else she knew she had messed up big time..... enough to continue apologizing and trying to make up. Funny how you were able to let it go and put it in the past, but she felt bitter at you b/c she thought you were trying to pay her back.

I did not entirely put it behind Sandi. I wanted to but I just couldn't. That night changed the perception I had from her and it affected our R in the following months if not years. In my defense, all these years her attitude was like "it is in the past let's forget about it and we were only 20 and it was not so major". THIS, is what I could not tolerate inside my head, but I was a boy not a man, so I kept it inside until it destroyed myself as well. I wish someone had given me NMMNG and Holding n to your NUTS when I was 18. There are some things I would have asked from her back then.

I only have your side of the story, but I'll tell you how this sitch looks to me. I think you are the type of man who likes setting goals and working on yourself to be at the top of your game. I see your W as being self-centered and somewhat immature. She thinks she should have your undivided attention, which is impossible if you are going to provide for your family. Instead of taking responsibility for her failures, she blames everything on you. Therefore, she doesn't grow and develop into a better individual. She likes being a party girl, and maybe that's her little hidden secret.......that she has a bit of wild side that wants to come out. IDK, but rather than take responsibility and do something about her drinking, it's easier for her to blame someone else. A lot can be determined by a person when you look at the friends they hang out with, whether drunk or sober.

It must be your maturity or experience but again you nail it. I am that man, I have always been that man and admired by my friends, which means I have never had issues with getting W. Yes I had a lot of emotional defects and I did not understand what women expect from us. But I set goals, I go for them and I want to be the best at it. This makes me attractive and happy at the same time. My goals are above anything but my kids now. She is quite absorbing. Every time we came back to Seville to visit we stayed at her parents, she always said she has a better R with her mom and that I never talk to my parents so it was better. But actually sometimes I wanted to feel at my home, and I did not have the b@lls to say it. As we were dating she would complain because I used to work Saturday morning and we could not date until late on Friday which was like our day together. I told her my job was important to pay my expenses and I offered to go out on Saturdays instead more often. These are stupid examples, but I think they illustrate what you mentioned. She has that thing for going out, in the same way that my thing are cars, hers is going out for a party with friends. I am sure that wild side is now free, now that she does not have a ring on and has her new tattoos, but I also now it will not make her happy. I only hope I can work on me hard enough so that when it hits her, I am not here being a safety net anymore. As LH mentioned, she knows ahe can have me back anytime, that ends today!

The tragedy in all of this (besides how it effects the kids) is that you have totally believed everything she said about you. She filled your head with so much negative talk about your failures as a H, and you bought into the lies. Recently, you have been able to see some personal growth and your posts are sounding better........and I think part of it is due to having NC with the person who is toxin. I notice you've said you are working on NC, so that makes me think you still struggle with it. Nobody said it would be easy, but once you realize you need some of the attitude of that 20 yr old guy, who saw himself deserving better than someone like her......won't you be able to let her go? That's your problem in a nutshell. You won't let her go.

I think I am beginning to see myself less of a failure when it comes to the R with W. Yes I had a lot of defects but that does not make me a lost cause or a man one should walk away from. The kids, yes that still destroys me inside, thinking not only how it has and is affecting them, but how this can evolve in the future and affect their lives and their future relationships. I am NC now and yes it helps, the kind of interactions I miss with W are not in her to do list so I am better off staying away. No more threats, no more manipulation and no more insults in front of my children. That 20 year old boy is coming out again, but this time as a man and father. He is going to build that amazing life LH encouraged me to do, alone.

Instead of seeing her objectively, you see it as your personal failure. That is what I've read between the lines from day one. Based on how you like to be the best you can at whatever you do, it's very difficult for you to accept this type of "failure". I know all your arguments about kids, responsibilities, family, etc. I agree whenever there is a family, it's more serious and there are more responsibilities, than when you were younger and single. Most of your DBing was done with the idea if you worked hard enough and became good enough .......you could save the MR. I think you might agree it didn't work. As long as there is two people in relationship, there's always a chance that one of them will not cooperate, no matter how much you change for the better. Therefore, I think you have to look at the root cause for these problems. The root issue started before the marriage took place. Your W did not respect you before the M, and she doesn't respect you now. I don't really see that changing, b/c I think it is a problem in her. It's b/c of who & what she is as a person, and it would require work she wouldn't be willing to do.

I agree, I focused the whole thing as winning her back and I was wrong and it does not work. I might as well focus myself of getting back the respect and admiration from those I interact with. When you are a good, faithful and hard working man, it should not be that hard to get the respect from you partner. Thanks a lot Sandi, I will think about your words.

You can't improve yourself as her H, b/c she's not going to let you be her H. However, you will always be a man, and a father. I think you are finally seeing this is true, and you are realizing you've got to build a life without her. Although it's still painful, you are getting stronger. In the beginning, you were probably told you can't fix her. I think you are closer to believing it today than when you first joined the board.

Somehow I thought my changes and actions could wake her up or at least awake in her the desire to work together for this M considering the value of our family. It has been a long time since I have felt respected, admired and loved by a woman. She was detaching from our R and blaming me and I could only think this is because of all the stress we have and it will get better. I know I cannot fix her Sandi. I wish things were different and all this pain was over. Let's keep rowing, let's keep working on Pack and making him an amazing guy.

Thanks for your posts! Your words always drive me to reflection and humility. ((hugs)) Pack

[sandi2]

Pack, I really appreciate you clarifying how things were before the marriage took place. Based on the accounts you gave of being in a committed R, then I have to agree that she cheated.

I am so happy to hear you talk about focusing on you and your future. I can usually tell when a LBH is beginning to accept the reality of his WW and when he starts letting go of the idea he can win her back. His posts are less about his WW, and more about him.

You are going to be fine, Pack.

[Pack_19]

Come on man we know where your focus is Pac.

Hi LH! Great to hear from you again! Thanks for being there for me!

Yes I know, do it, don't just say it. I cannot wait to finish Holding on to your Nuts, passing the first motorbike test and jumping on one! I also have great hopes for the yearly review this year at work, fingers crossed!

There is a voice growing in my head telling me I deserve more, better and I cannot tolerate what W is doing now.

Listen to that voice.

That voice is changing the size of the steps I take ahead. I want to feed it but without being arrogant, knowing what I was lacking and making sure it never happens again.

You can show your children that with another partner.

And all I have to do is destroy the barrier I have forcing me to think it would not be or feel natural and amazing.

I cant get rid of the feeling that I failed, that I pressured her too much and that I made many mistakes along 2020 but at the same time she has given me not the slightest option to turn this around.

Because your W is gone Pack and probably will be for a really long time.

And there is nothing I can do about this. All I can do is turn me into the best man and father I can envision.

I think a lot about my boundaries, my NUTS and the deadline I have in May this year.

Soooo..........

So I will file in May. I had some hope she might change when I moved away from the picture but as you can imagine not at all, I am killing that hope and sticking to my values, boundaries and NUTS. If I am going to rebuild my emotional life, it will start with a D.

Pack lots of "I's" in that last paragraph.

Meanwhile she is out there meeting guys and pretending her life has started now. I know this is my mind thinking the wrong way but I cannot help it, my feelings and my values push me to defend the value in all we had.

Again this is all about what you want

Yes I sounded too selfish there. What I meant is that all we had and we had worked to have it was of great value to me. I know now she prioritizes other things I was not able to deliver, not that I cannot do it, I did not understand these were of such high importance.

But LH, for me it should be all about me now right? Not regarding the outcome of our M but regarding my life right now. I need to be put myself first and cover my needs and really be happy alone. Otherwise, how am I ever to be fun and attractive again?

[SteveLW]

Pack, you seem to be doing well! Do you think some of it is because of the deadline? That feeling of seeing light at the end of the tunnel, that one way or another this will be resolved in May? I think a lot of LBSs struggle because they are expecting a turnaround from the WAS at any moment! Realistically they know it could be years, but in their minds they think it could be in the next minute.

Setting a deadline frees you up from that thinking to start focusing on what is most important, being a father, and taking are of yourself. And I see you turning to that now that you have an end game. I love seeing you turn that corner, and I would hope other LBSs could learn from you in this regard.

[OnlyBent]

Any updates Pack?

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

Hope you are doing great and getting vaccinated asap. I wanted to come post earlier but I have not had the time to really sit down for a good hour to put my thoughts together and filter the things I want to share. I have been very busy with the kids, trainings at work and exercise (boy I love crossfit and how it is destroying me and making me grow physically) and I just started today refurbishing the bathroom at home.

First of all, I have a general message of gratitude to this board, I have learnt in months things I could not have guessed had I been in many different Rs. You have changed the way I see myself as a man, the way I prioritize and care my R with the kids, the way I imagine my life and how I understand women and most importantly my defects and how to know them, accept them and work on them. You don't know me, you don't owe me a thing and yet you come and invest your time on my growth and healing. I doubt there's an internet community where we can emotionally learn more than here. Than you all, I am finally starting to feel like a new man.

Last interaction I have had with W was one day I went to drop the kids. S2 was really tired and to avoid him falling asleep in the car I gave him youtube kids on the phone. When she came to pick them, S2 started to cry and throw his hands at me as he always does because we have an amazing time together and she commented "no wonder he cries when he leaves you, if you let him watch youtube all the time". I thought "yes love, that is the reason" and I got in the car and drove back home. She also started sending me emails about our new home in Munich, I was not answering so her L got in touch with mine. My L said I should answer those emails and not be immature. I told her the house causes me too much pain and we are close to selling it after I handled it all BY MYSELF and I will not explain a thing to her, enough that she is going to get half the winning we make after I took responsibility for all. I later sent her an email telling her not to ask me anything more about the house. I think I am in my right to not answer that, she can always call our financial advisor in Munich and she decided long ago to break from that house and all it meant.

Pack is doing better! I am fully NC now, even when she tries to talk about something I direct her to email. Then I choose what to answer and how, taking my time. I still feel sad for our family and deeply hurt by her decisions and actions, I don't think she is ever going to change the way she sees me, but it is not my job to change it, despite how much I have tried it in the past. As I said above, I am loving crossfit, I swear I have never sweated like this during workouts and I feel myself growing in strength and flexibility. This week I have the theoretical test for the motorbike license and I have been doing lots of activities with the kids (biking, trekking, home cinema sessions, going to the park... I got some new running shoes and I am going to buy a second hand road bike to enter a triathlon when possible.

A couple of Fridays ago I had a terrible day. My salary has dropped this year and I got my first taste of how it is going to look, the same day I got an email form my lawyer because I tried to adjust alimony and apparently W's salary has also dropped so I do not have much room to change it, I got an email from Munich that the house is almost finished and my boss gave me the yearly review and commented that despite she is very happy, she had to give me a "needs improvement" because I am new, adapting to the team and still have much to learn. All came together and made me realize how much my life has worsened and how I have let her destroy everything I had so proudly built to the point that this D has affected my performance at work and made me question my worth as a man and father and the decision to buy a house for my family, something I was so sure was the right thing to do.

Last week I contacted a couple of new male lawyers, with the hope that they will empathize with me and help me change the situation I have in order to be able to work in Madrid when I dont have the kids. I met with the first of them and he made 3 comments that helped me realize he might be able to fight for me in a stronger way. He commented that I pay too much alimony given the shared custody, he asked me why the hell I paid for half her L's expenses and he told me if my career is in Madrid I should be able to work there and alimony should be compensated due to the fact that I have to travel to be with the kids, all around the idea of shared custody, which is standard as per influence of the European Union in this retarded country. It seems I am going to have to pay double, but at least I am going to D with a L who really understands me. I need to get some documents from work to prove my career will benefit from me being in Madrid when not with the kids and I am getting them now. He also commented it is too soon to change anything so I need to be patient now and pay what I have agreed when I was emotionally a mess.

P - Getting ready for a marathon, keep up the good work at crossfit, get the road bike and join some sport events as soon as they are available.
I - Preparing a new certification at work, continue learning abut how men and women interact, promote to L6 at work
E - Listen actively to anyone, focusing on being happy with the new life circumstances I have and being the best father and man I can be.
S - Understand I cannot control how this ends, remaining positive that I will grow and learn from this experience.


Thank you all, I will post more often now that I have more free time.

[SteveLW]

Hi all!

Hope you are doing great and getting vaccinated asap. I wanted to come post earlier but I have not had the time to really sit down for a good hour to put my thoughts together and filter the things I want to share. I have been very busy with the kids, trainings at work and exercise (boy I love crossfit and how it is destroying me and making me grow physically) and I just started today refurbishing the bathroom at home.

First of all, I have a general message of gratitude to this board, I have learnt in months things I could not have guessed had I been in many different Rs. You have changed the way I see myself as a man, the way I prioritize and care my R with the kids, the way I imagine my life and how I understand women and most importantly my defects and how to know them, accept them and work on them. You don't know me, you don't owe me a thing and yet you come and invest your time on my growth and healing. I doubt there's an internet community where we can emotionally learn more than here. Than you all, I am finally starting to feel like a new man.

Last interaction I have had with W was one day I went to drop the kids. S2 was really tired and to avoid him falling asleep in the car I gave him youtube kids on the phone. When she came to pick them, S2 started to cry and throw his hands at me as he always does because we have an amazing time together and she commented "no wonder he cries when he leaves you, if you let him watch youtube all the time". I thought "yes love, that is the reason" and I got in the car and drove back home. She also started sending me emails about our new home in Munich, I was not answering so her L got in touch with mine. My L said I should answer those emails and not be immature. I told her the house causes me too much pain and we are close to selling it after I handled it all BY MYSELF and I will not explain a thing to her, enough that she is going to get half the winning we make after I took responsibility for all. I later sent her an email telling her not to ask me anything more about the house. I think I am in my right to not answer that, she can always call our financial advisor in Munich and she decided long ago to break from that house and all it meant.

Pack is doing better! I am fully NC now, even when she tries to talk about something I direct her to email. Then I choose what to answer and how, taking my time. I still feel sad for our family and deeply hurt by her decisions and actions, I don't think she is ever going to change the way she sees me, but it is not my job to change it, despite how much I have tried it in the past. As I said above, I am loving crossfit, I swear I have never sweated like this during workouts and I feel myself growing in strength and flexibility. This week I have the theoretical test for the motorbike license and I have been doing lots of activities with the kids (biking, trekking, home cinema sessions, going to the park... I got some new running shoes and I am going to buy a second hand road bike to enter a triathlon when possible.

A couple of Fridays ago I had a terrible day. My salary has dropped this year and I got my first taste of how it is going to look, the same day I got an email form my lawyer because I tried to adjust alimony and apparently W's salary has also dropped so I do not have much room to change it, I got an email from Munich that the house is almost finished and my boss gave me the yearly review and commented that despite she is very happy, she had to give me a "needs improvement" because I am new, adapting to the team and still have much to learn. All came together and made me realize how much my life has worsened and how I have let her destroy everything I had so proudly built to the point that this D has affected my performance at work and made me question my worth as a man and father and the decision to buy a house for my family, something I was so sure was the right thing to do.

Last week I contacted a couple of new male lawyers, with the hope that they will empathize with me and help me change the situation I have in order to be able to work in Madrid when I dont have the kids. I met with the first of them and he made 3 comments that helped me realize he might be able to fight for me in a stronger way. He commented that I pay too much alimony given the shared custody, he asked me why the hell I paid for half her L's expenses and he told me if my career is in Madrid I should be able to work there and alimony should be compensated due to the fact that I have to travel to be with the kids, all around the idea of shared custody, which is standard as per influence of the European Union in this retarded country. It seems I am going to have to pay double, but at least I am going to D with a L who really understands me. I need to get some documents from work to prove my career will benefit from me being in Madrid when not with the kids and I am getting them now. He also commented it is too soon to change anything so I need to be patient now and pay what I have agreed when I was emotionally a mess.

P - Getting ready for a marathon, keep up the good work at crossfit, get the road bike and join some sport events as soon as they are available.
I - Preparing a new certification at work, continue learning abut how men and women interact, promote to L6 at work
E - Listen actively to anyone, focusing on being happy with the new life circumstances I have and being the best father and man I can be.
S - Understand I cannot control how this ends, remaining positive that I will grow and learn from this experience.


Thank you all, I will post more often now that I have more free time.

Pack great update! Love the crossfit. Keep up the good work.

On the job, as a manager I can tell you that HR departments are forever pressuring us to have an equal distribution of low achievers, mid-achievers and high achievers. It drives me nuts. They talk about a bell curve, and rating people in relation to each other. It is maddening. I've resisted giving any of my employees a low-achiever just because they aren't going above and beyond like others might. I say all that to say maybe your boss is under the same pressure? And the new employee is an easy target.

As far as the L, like most things in life you get what you pay for. I always chuckle at advertisements for corrective eye surgery where they are bragging about their low rates. The last thing I want when it comes to eye surgery is a budget surgeon! And you should take the same tact with a D L. Extra cost up front could save you thousands of dollars later. I applaud you for not just sitting back and sticking with your current L out of ease. It amazes me how humans will shop around for the best price on a car or TV, but then just take the first L that comes along.

Well done, sir!

[LH19]

Pac,

Overall I think you are doing well but there are some areas you may need clarification on.

She also started sending me emails about our new home in Munich, I was not answering so her L got in touch with mine. My L said I should answer those emails and not be immature.

I agree with your lawyer. You should answer questions regarding kids and finances but be as brief as possible. If you can give some examples of the emails I can suggest how to respond.

I told her the house causes me too much pain and we are close to selling it after I handled it all BY MYSELF and I will not explain a thing to her, enough that she is going to get half the winning we make after I took responsibility for all.

That was a weak and kind of pricky statement. Stay away from statements like this in the future.

I later sent her an email telling her not to ask me anything more about the house.

Pac that was a controlling email that will just remind her that you have not changed.

Again, you are making a lot of great changes and accomplishing some impressive goals but you have some work to do in regards to your interactions.

[Traveler]

Hi Pack,

Overall, a great update! I can really feel your detachment growing vs. prior messages from you. I love that you're shopping around for lawyers and trying to achieve a work/life situation that works for you. LH pointed out a couple of behaviors I'm sure jumped out to most readers.

I later sent her an email telling her not to..

E - Listen actively to anyone, focusing on being happy with the new life circumstances I have and being the best father and man I can be.

Telling others what to do is controlling. We're all works in progress. Be wary anytime you're telling someone what to do unless they're your subordinate or kid. Your kid is 2. At that age it's usually acceptable to tell them what to do, lol. Subordinates, even, it's worth a little thought unless they're unskilled labor.

[Traveler]

Pac that was a controlling email that will just remind her that you have not changed.

We often say it may take years for the WAS to look back and realize there's been a change. The flip side is, it often takes years for the LBS to make changes. Pack seems committed to getting there. I love that he has his PIES. I never remember what it stands for, but he consistently aims to improve them.

[SteveLW]

CW makes a great point in his first response. I will say however, that if the LBS struggles with proper responses (like so many do), I would rather they handle them the way Pack is than to be overly eager to communicate.

[Pack_19]

Pack great update! Love the crossfit. Keep up the good work.

On the job, as a manager I can tell you that HR departments are forever pressuring us to have an equal distribution of low achievers, mid-achievers and high achievers. It drives me nuts. They talk about a bell curve, and rating people in relation to each other. It is maddening. I've resisted giving any of my employees a low-achiever just because they aren't going above and beyond like others might. I say all that to say maybe your boss is under the same pressure? And the new employee is an easy target.

As far as the L, like most things in life you get what you pay for. I always chuckle at advertisements for corrective eye surgery where they are bragging about their low rates. The last thing I want when it comes to eye surgery is a budget surgeon! And you should take the same tact with a D L. Extra cost up front could save you thousands of dollars later. I applaud you for not just sitting back and sticking with your current L out of ease. It amazes me how humans will shop around for the best price on a car or TV, but then just take the first L that comes along.

Well done, sir!

Hi Steve!

Thanks for the post, yes I talked about the bell curve with a friend that is in a similar situation, he works for Boeing, and my manager has reiterated that the important thing is how satisfied she is with me and the progression she can see in me. However, it was still hard to listen to that feedback in a moment when all was coming on me and it reminds me that if I let this situation continue damaging me as a man there will come a day when I could lose my job and I have children that depend on me. I guess I am an easy target, new team member, made some rookie mistakes last year but I wanted to ask for an improvement in my salary and now I do not see that happening, even if she has told me these things are independent. Sometimes it is hard to understand because as you point out, I dont see the conversations between HR and managers. Thanks for offering me your experience.

About the L, I only want someone to understand that after this covid situation is over I have a life I want to take back and it means being able to work in the office from time to time and that will not come for free. I do not care if the cost is higher, I am not hurt by the fact that I pay more than usual given our finances, it pains me that she is not using that for the best of our children.

Thanks for the post and the encouragement Steve! I will keep you updated!

[Pack_19]

hi LH! Hope you are doing great!

I agree with your lawyer. You should answer questions regarding kids and finances but be as brief as possible. If you can give some examples of the emails I can suggest how to respond.

I will try to explain. I actually thought showing this strength was a change on my side for the better. I always think I will not do anything to harm or inconvenience her, but I will also not move a finger to make her life better, specially considering all that has happened with OM and her constant attitude of despite towards me. This is so hard, maybe you guys can help me.

For example, she would get an email in German where the real state company requests our approval of the next payment by the bank and she would forward it to me out of nowhere asking me if all is fine and how the payments are going. Now please understand this, for the first year of our S I would answer all these emails in a kind way and trying to inform her. Did it help me? No. Did it change the way she used any chance to remind me of all my fault? No. I have heard many times here I was trying to nice my way back and it was never going to work. Now I try to be a strong man, never going against anyone but trying to protect and defend what I have so hard worked for, and you tell me I have not changed. Please help me understand how a mature and detached man would handle this, I dont want to show her a man at her feet anymore.

So now, I see this email and I think, well she can use an online translator and see exactly what they say. She left our home, regardless of whether I could pay or not the mortgage, she told me to stay in Germany as far as possible from her and the kids and she threatened me with a miserable life in order to get the kids back to Spain. All I am doing is defending my position as a man, you wanted nothing to do with our house, how come now a year and a half later you are very interested. I am trying to change LH, for the better, but I dont think I want her to see any change anymore, after all she has done, if she ever was to come to me I dont know what I would think. I hope I have explained myself and you all can offer some guidance.

That was a weak and kind of pricky statement. Stay away from statements like this in the future.

I guess that was hurt talking. I wanted our family to live in that house, it was probably the biggest achievement in my life and all I got from her is that I manipulated into buying it and that she was in Germany because of me (in a blaming tone). I dont want any R with this woman the way she behaves now LH, I want to talk to her about only essentials and some day I will be able to show her a strong man, the wonderful man she has thrown away.

I later sent her an email telling her not to ask me anything more about the house.

Pac that was a controlling email that will just remind her that you have not changed.

I sent her a first email telling her I would handle all linked to the payments of the house, which I have been doing in terms of payments and paperwork since she left. Then she replied to that telling me she must be informed about everything. To that email I replied that I would not avoid any communication between her and our financial advisor but not to expect any information from my side. Then she sent a new email insisting I inform her and then is when I replied in that mistaken way.

I feel like I have been humiliated enough during this situation LH. All the times she has said I destroyed our M, all the times she has accused me of having jealousy issues, the way she has pushed me out of her life as if I meant nothing, all the days I have to say goodbye to my children and go out running to avoid crying at home. I dont want to be childish or vindictive in any way. I just want to show her a man that has principles, sticks to them and expects respect. But where is the line? What emails am I suppose to answer and what can I ignore?

My W has ignored me and pushed me away form her new life for almost 2 years now LH, and I still call her W in my head. Thanks a lot for your comments and help. I hope I managed to explain myself and you can offer me some guidance.

Telling others what to do is controlling. We're all works in progress. Be wary anytime you're telling someone what to do unless they're your subordinate or kid.

Hi CW! I thought I was referring to how others interact with me and trying to set a boundary with her. I will think about that the way you and LH have explained it and work on it not happening again. Thank you both, looking forward to hearing back form you!

[LH19]

For example, she would get an email in German where the real state company requests our approval of the next payment by the bank and she would forward it to me out of nowhere asking me if all is fine and how the payments are going.

Yes. The payments are on time.

Now please understand this, for the first year of our S I would answer all these emails in a kind way and trying to inform her. Did it help me? No. Did it change the way she used any chance to remind me of all my fault? No. I have heard many times here I was trying to nice my way back and it was never going to work.

You can't nice her back and you can't mean her back.

Now I try to be a strong man, never going against anyone but trying to protect and defend what I have so hard worked for, and you tell me I have not changed. Please help me understand how a mature and detached man would handle this, I dont want to show her a man at her feet anymore.

See my response above. Think of her like a business partner when it comes to finances. Just the facts.

She left our home, regardless of whether I could pay or not the mortgage, she told me to stay in Germany as far as possible from her and the kids and she threatened me with a miserable life in order to get the kids back to Spain.

And yet you still want her back.

All I am doing is defending my position as a man, you wanted nothing to do with our house, how come now a year and a half later you are very interested. I am trying to change LH, for the better, but I dont think I want her to see any change anymore, after all she has done, if she ever was to come to me I dont know what I would think. I hope I have explained myself and you all can offer some guidance.

Well then file for D and move on.

I guess that was hurt talking. [quote=LH19]
Learn to master your emotions and this will not happen in the future.
[quote=Pack_19] I sent her a first email telling her I would handle all linked to the payments of the house, which I have been doing in terms of payments and paperwork since she left. Then she replied to that telling me she must be informed about everything. To that email I replied that I would not avoid any communication between her and our financial advisor but not to expect any information from my side. Then she sent a new email insisting I inform her and then is when I replied in that mistaken way.

W feel free to contact X at this email address for that information.

I feel like I have been humiliated enough during this situation LH. All the times she has said I destroyed our M, all the times she has accused me of having jealousy issues, the way she has pushed me out of her life as if I meant nothing, all the days I have to say goodbye to my children and go out running to avoid crying at home. I dont want to be childish or vindictive in any way. I just want to show her a man that has principles, sticks to them and expects respect.

Give her the D she wants and go live an amazing life. It's really that simple.

But where is the line? What emails am I suppose to answer and what can I ignore?

Come on man you know the answer to this but I will give it to you one more time. Questions about the kids or finances. Be brief and to the point. Ignore everything else.

[Pack_19]

hi all!

I hope you all had a great weekend and those GAL batteries are recharged!

@LH, thanks for the answers, thanks for the critical view on my unfortunate messages and thanks for the boldness on your suggestions. Kids and finances, business like, understood! Let's see how many times I stumble before I get this working long term.

I have started working on getting my paperwork in place for D this summer. I need a couple of documents from work and then I can engage with the new L, however, since I work in a large worldwide corporation and they have to make an exception for me to work in between Seville and Madrid, it is taking long time and headaches.

I had a very strange conversation with my manager some weeks ago that left me broken. She is also a mom and she told me moving forward I have 3 options:
1 - I continue to grow in the team and I make my family life work with the travel required after COVID, meaning I need support from W or family when I need to be out.
2 - I become a backup team member, never leading engagements but working flexible hours in the background
3 - She helps me find a new role with less travel

My immediate answer was 1 and I will make it work, but it left me worried thinking all my personal situation has ended up being a problem with my manager. She said she was here to help me, but I could not avoid all my worries. I thought a lot about all the changes and destruction W has brought into my life and I had a weak moment of thinking how this all could resolve if we R and could be a family again. Then I relaxed and thought, "no Pack, that would be the easy solution, easy is not the best. Short term inconvenience for the desired long term happiness, I can make this work alone!".

We only interact to exchange the kids and I always make sure to be the first one to leave. About the house in Munich, I ended up sending her an email asking f she could sign the contract for selling it and if all was fine and she replied that she had found a couple of mistakes but was talking to our contact there. Later she emailed me asking if she had to sign a specific page to what I replied "yes please do".

I am dealing with a lot of frustration for my career because I keep feeling that I have to choose between keeping frequent contact with my children or growing professionally because eventually covid will be over and I will be expected to work in an office to grow and promote and that office will not be in Seville based on what I do now and I don't want to leave ( I work in artificial intelligence and I consider myself very fortunate for it, I do not want to change that).

Despite I still have my bad days and some poor sleep nights I am working on staying focused on the children, Pack and my job. Just this weekend I went to the beach with them and took our first swim of the year with S7. I love being with them, they really are an oasis in my life. Deep inside I still cannot believe all that has happened, how S7 cannot remember a thing about our life in Munich and everything W has said and done since this nightmare started.

I bought a couple of Saucony running shoes with an energy plate inside. They are meant to help you go faster so now I have two pairs I can mix depending on how I am feeling and the kind of training I go for. Crossfit is killing me but boy do I love it! My hands are full of blisters from pull ups and weight lifting but I can see myself improving. I am also taking my motorbike lessons and loving it! Got myself a good helmet, nice gloves and a jacket and I try to go as much as I can, I dont know why I had never jumped on a motorbike before! Anyways, I am taking it slowly because I have kids and everyone encourages me to be very respectful, not that it is necessary because I will be but it is I believe an important message to keep in mind.

I finished refurbishing the bathroom and it looks epic! The black finishes on the tap, the shower and the shower screen makes it look really male in a cool way and the kids love it! They can now take showers using the upper rain-effect head and they just love it. I think it was money well invested! With that, the house in Seville is done and I can focus my savings on the kids and my passions (cars and motorbikes).

Still spend a lot of time thinking about the past and how my life has changed as well as how done W is with me and all that our family represents for her. I have moments of doubt about my changes and my ability to keep it up but I have my PIES as a reference to follow. I am going to start reading "The art of seduction" and I will now post here more often as a diary. Time goes by, every time I look at S3 in the eyes my brain shouts "there must be a way to give you a full family back" and yet I know is time for Pack to set up boundaries on the things I can tolerate in my life. Scr@w my May deadline, I am not ready to D in a healthy way. I will do it in August when I have all the paperwork ready and I will write in my brain that I gave it all I could for 2 years since BD. I am also not ready to date, but I feel lonely, I miss being intimate with a woman badly and I hate all the pressure I get from outside to "just open my eyes to reality and move on".

On a positive side, here are some changes I have established in my life.
P- I have changed my eating habits, I have never been this fit and I will compete asap once Covid is over. I have never been so much into having exercising routines and I have new clothes for the good weather coming up.
I - I start in June my new project as leader and I keep learning about the cloud and all related to my work. I have now 10 books on my queue to get started with.
E - When I talk to someone I focus on listening and understanding how they are feeling. I am learning to accept this miserable stage of my life will not last forever and truly letting W go
S - I am trying to parent my kids with love and at the same time discipline. I pray for them and for me and I am learning to understand my weaknesses as that desire to pursue the women I like and I am learning to change that in me and working on improving the respect I feel for myself and my self esteem.

Thank you all, please keep posting here. There are still many edges in me I have to work on.

((hugs)) Pack

[Traveler]

Another solid update, Pack.

I had a very strange conversation with my manager some weeks ago that left me broken. She is also a mom and she told me moving forward I have 3 options:
1 - I continue to grow in the team and I make my family life work with the travel required after COVID, meaning I need support from W or family when I need to be out.

You say door #1 requires support from your W, but she no longer wants that hat. I'd start thinking about how you'll do door #1 without her. This could mean paying a nanny when you travel. This could mean deciding your job doesn't pay enough to hire a nanny, so you in parallel search for a job with less travel.

I am dealing with a lot of frustration for my career because I keep feeling that I have to choose between keeping frequent contact with my children or growing professionally

Yes, of course, this is a key life choice. I could make 10% more within a month if I ditched parenting. Your choice will be guided by your values. For me, it's the easiest choice in the world--my kids. Another dad explained to me he couldn't do more than Fri-Sun without impacting his income. Priorities?

I am going to start reading "The art of seduction" and I will now post here more often as a diary.

Cool! Someone encouraged me to watch a 30-min video on attraction (for men attracting women). What that woman claimed: (1) Women prefer confidence--so address any areas of your life you're unhappy with--e.g., for me a messy car and home, (2) Women prefer men with standards, so don't be shy to check potential partners against yours, and don't compromise your values. I rejected a third point (3), men over-compliment women so no more than one compliment per date. I enjoy expressing gratitude and compliments, and I'm not going to change who I am just to attract people. I'm pretty attractive as-is. (:

"there must be a way to give you a full family back"

S3 still has a full family--a mom and dad who love him. Keep that front in center in your mind.

I am also not ready to date, but I feel lonely

On Sunday, I co-hosted a charity event, and when one member of the band got sick I stepped in. I talked to over 100 people and deepened multiple acquaintances. Afterward, I went for a hike, and I suspect my smile was wide because three different people started conversations with me. Today, I was invited to a new friend's charity event. I got to meet 9 of their friends, saw wildlife I've never seen before in lands restricted to the public, and enjoy a catered lunch. Pack, I don't feel 90% lonely, or 50% lonely, or 10% lonely. I'm sure I will, some days? Addressing loneliness is separate from dating. I suspect this me is capable of attracting better dating prospects than the old me who required so much of his partners. (:

[OnlyBent]

I thought a lot about all the changes and destruction W has brought into my life and I had a weak moment of thinking how this all could resolve if we R and could be a family again. Then I relaxed and thought, "no Pack, that would be the easy solution, easy is not the best. Short term inconvenience for the desired long term happiness, I can make this work alone!".

Great update Pack, this is the quote that grabbed my attention the most. I'm glad you could relax and think this through logically. I would also add that how would you feel about R with someone who has caused you so much pain and has brought so much destruction?

[OnlyBent]

(1) Women prefer confidence--so address any areas of your life you're unhappy with--e.g., for me a messy car and home

It is said over and over for a reason. And I think once you start to get that confidence back you witness it first hand. Quiet confidence, not cockiness or arrogance.

(2) Women prefer men with standards, so don't be shy to check potential partners against yours, and don't compromise your values.

The ones worth getting to know do.

(3), men over-compliment women so no more than one compliment per date. I enjoy expressing gratitude and compliments, and I'm not going to change who I am just to attract people. I'm pretty attractive as-is.

I both agree and disagree with this. I'm all for you being you and owning it. I suppose where the idea that men over-compliment comes from is when it is done to try and win over someone and to get something in return. Comes back to that confidence thing again.

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

Thanks a lot for your comments and apologies I have been out for so long. New project is up and running and I am leading it solo, it is really intense, it involves computer vision, OCR and orchestration of automated pipelines for training and inference in ML within a very restricted environment. It is going amazing, even my manager has complimented me on the state of the project. Yay!

I have joined a couple or running races in October and I cannot wait, I bought a water camel bag for outdoor long runs and I am going to buy a road bike and start swimming to join a sprint triathlon when I feel prepared. Crossfit continues to impress me and helps me meet new people, it feels like you are a member of a great community.

I am working on accepting this is permanent, I try to fight all my thoughts that take me back to our time in the UK and Germany and telling me this hell is temporary and my life will change thanks to all the effort and work I am putting on myself. I have no contact with W, even when I exchange the kids I just give them the best goodbye hugs and kisses and I leave. I think a lot about the day when Sandi wrote to me that I had to build a life without her and grow stronger, that is where my compass is pointing to.

The time I spend with the kids continues to be fantastic. We have been a couple of times to the beach on long weekends and the fact that I work with people in Dubai for this project means I can leave early on Fridays. I am playing a ps4 game with s7 that he loves and we have such a blast together, I pretend to be worse than I really am to let him shine and he is just so happy. S2, soon to be 3, has started calling me out as daddy, he will sometimes shout daddy look! and do some funny thing. Regarding the work-kids decision, I already made that when I was in Munich and visiting every 15 days and I am not going back to that life. It just makes me frustrated because I keep getting recruitment calls (none of them in Spain) and as you might remember I got the "needs improvement" review in my team and I don't think it was fair. I still have so much to give and so much to shine professionally but I have to be in Seville 50% of my time and cannot take the kids with me to Madrid or London, that is what hurts the most. I am sure you will understand what I am trying to say.

Last weekend I went to a racetrack to drive a Ferrari 488 for 2 laps as my bd gift from last year. While I was there, having the time of my life, I was thinking "Why did I give up on this dream? this is what makes my heart go bonkers and gives me goosebumps. I need to fight for this, for my dreams, I want a life where I can have a decent car and take it to the track and that is not going to be easy, but I know I can make it happen (does not have to be a Ferrari of course, but that is my dream)". I also took S7 karting and he was scared, I had all this expectations that he was going to have a great time and we would both love it and he ended up crying in the middle of the track because I went for a fast lap and left him driving his kid kart "alone". I felt terrible, like I was pushing my passion on him to hard but at the same time it was a sad day for me, I had expected the outcome to be totally different.

A couple of weeks ago I was very busy and missed the calls from W to speak to S7 at the end of the evening. When we exchanged the kids she walked to me in her righteous way to tell me if I was not going to enable communication I could not have shared custody and that she could have taken custody from me. I told her I had been very busy, I was not punishing her and that I am not scared of her threats and manipulation anymore. In fact, I told her to go seek a judge as I was more than ready to D the woman she has become. Then she told me she did not want that because she has nothing against me as a father but she told me I would not leave until I committed to having S7 calling her everyday. I tried to leave and she was holding my car's door. I told her I did not want a scene and that if she wanted to get to me, threats and manipulation were the wrong path. I kissed my kids goodbye, left, cried in the car at home and immediately went for one of my killer runs at 4:30 min/km.

We are getting the keys to our flat in Munich at the beginning of July and she has started sending me all this politically correct emails saying we need to communicate because of the kids, telling me she knows I hate her and to put it aside, saying she is entitled to decide about the house. You know the story, I am paying the mortgage alone since she left home at the end of 2019, on top of a more than generous alimony that was agreed when I was in a very dark emotional place. I have made some unfortunate comments in the past and I want to rely on this board to help me face this as a man of integrity and values as I consider myself to be. Something I had worked so hard to achieve, the education and the life for my kids in a city with so many opportunities and all I can think of is to handle the process myself and inform her only of essentials. Am I being immature here? This subject hurts me beyond words can explain and I am scared I might be reacting to it emotionally, I just cant help it. I am sure you will also understand what I mean.

Last week W sent me an email because her brother is getting married, kids are with me and she wants them to be part of the religious ceremony. I did not want them to go, not to hurt her, is just I think is a farce that she wants our children to be active part of a religious wedding ceremony. Again, a man of principles with a mature mindset, I have ended up telling her we can swap that weekend for another one because I imagine it is important for her that they are there. To that she has replied that she only wants them to attend the mess at 20:00 on Saturday. I answered that they are little children and should not be traveling for that short and coming back that late, she gets the weekend and I get another weekend in August as an exchange. I am not going to be mean, but things are going to go my way now (in all that involves my life).

I have confirmation there have been more than one OM. I do not care this is the mother of the two best things I have in my life, I deserve so much better. Las time I tried to talk to her about the future she said "she was aware the father of her children was not going to be in her life and it was my fault. She said it has been 2 years already and I should move on and that there were going to be men in her life I would never meet". As proud as I am of my changes and new found respect as a man, you can imagine how it hurt listening to those words from the person that swore you faithfulness. W also told me she was fired from her previous job and now she earns a lower salary, which means for the D after we sell the house I might face the same unfair alimony I have now because of differences in our salaries. Turns out life in Munich with the monster of her ex husband was not so bad after all and all the things I valued from what we had achieved are indeed worth the effort I put on them.

The loneliness issue is not about dating or not, I might have given there a false impression. I have a lot on my plate at work because I want to grow and promote, I am learning a lot and it is great, but on top of that I am the father of 2 kids half the time and one of them is 2 and needs a lot of attention. I will try to make more plans and be social and talk to strangers. I have always been a cheerful person, I smile, I make jokes, I laugh at my own jokes. It should not be hard for me to make new friends wherever I go.

I need to save Pack from all that I have been through. I need to solidify my changes and rediscover love and respect for the man I am and the values I have. I need to believe I am a great father, worker, runner, friend, son and brother and I need to write in my head I deserve so much more than W.

I will come more often, you always help me make the right decisions as a man of honor and principles.

P - Running and biking. Get ready for the marathon, continue to improve my records in cross-fit. Keep up great hygiene. Find ways to develop my muscles and read about diet and exercise.
I - Promote at work, read my books about men and woman. Make a list of my unalterable terms and use any opportunity to learn and grow as a person. Pass the motorbike test, save for the car I always wanted, make it happen.
E - Talk to friends and family, quality time with my children. Practice active listening and validation, specially with women around me. Be social and fun again.
S - Forgive myself for my mistakes, keep an eye on the father and man I am. Find peace that I tried my best and it was never in my hands to R. Detach and GAL

[SteveLW]

Pack, great to hear from you and great update! Well done all around here. As far as your struggle with the house and such, just try to remain as unbiased as you can. I do not think you are being immature. We all struggle with how to act and to treat our WAS/WS when they start acting entitled or dare to ask for our help. In my own sitch, after BD, I can remember my W asking me for help to review her resume and if she could buy books to help her with interviewing. My initial thought was "I am not going to HELP you leave me". But then I tried to look at the situation outside of myself. As a legally married couple our money was just that, OUR money. And she was leaving regardless. So I tried to keep the mindset about how to react as a truly detached person without thoughts of vengeance, It also helped show her that I wa accepting her decision to leave me and that I was moving on myself.

It is tough though. I know how you feel and struggle between good Pack and bad Pack. I forget if you are in IC, but I really encourage you to get/stay in IC and work through these struggles.

[Pack_19]

Hi Steve!

Thanks a lot for the post! Yes I am in IC but I took a long break because I started paying the crossfit gym and with the house in Munich it was too much on the plate, what I will do this time is most likely come here more often and talk to you all.

I dont think there ever was a "bad" Pack. I guess my perspective of all of this is changing and as I see what W never gave me (having acknowledged and continue working on my own controlling and lack of empathy issues), I get again all those feelings of "why cannot she value all that we had and how hard it was to achieve?" or "were my needs being covered by her?". Reading her cold emails, finishing on sentences like "you have my phone and email in case you need to clarify this or that about the kids" is still harsh on me. These feelings fuel me to continue focusing on Pack because I feel I am not detached to the level I should be.

I was walking the other day back from a school party, S2 on my shoulders and S7 by my hand. We walked pass W's father and he was pretending to not have seen me. I shouted out his name and said hello with a smile. I dont understand why they all behave like that around me, like I destroyed her and I have to be shunt away like an infected rat. Just wanted to share it here, nothing major.

I havent heard back from W regarding her brother's wedding, I honestly wanted to ask the board for help because I was not sure I was reacting on a healthy way. Nothing is going to change the fact that I think her values are now rotten and it is a farce to want our children to get actively involved in church traditions.

I am trying to put my kids and PIES ahead of everything else in my life. I went shopping today for some new summer clothes (remember to not back slide from the well earned changes! ) and the day before yesterday I passed my motorbike track exam! Only the road one left and I can own a Honda! I am starting to lift heavier weights at crossfit and I feel myself a more mature professional in my team now that I know I can handle complex projects alone.

I have been feeling like I am failing to have a cordial R with W and that is poor on my side wrt the kids. Let me explain, now every time we exchange the kids she smiles and says oh goodbye Pack! Or she maybe asks me "why cant you just tell me goodbye like I am a person?", or she jokes with the kids or she tells me something about S2. When I hear or see this all I can think is, "too late W, you have gone too far and I deserve so much better". I dont want to be vindictive or harsh or disrespectful and I have mentioned before in this board that I dont want to be friends with W, I have good friends already and I expected something very different from our M. Again same as before, I have thoughts that I might be immature or vindictive.

Why is it so hard for me to trust my instinct and values as a man? I have never been a bad person, for sure, I should trust my heart and my head much more than I do. After all she has done and after all the blame, the accusations, the manipulation, threats and ignorance, this is how my heart reacts to this fake chit-chat talk she tries to start. I am sure some of you will understand me and help me. I will be forever grateful for all the people in this board because honestly you are helping me save Pack from this ugly wreck.

Thank you all! ((hugs)), Pack

[joejoe1]

Pack,

I don't think you are truly detached. You are holding your wife actions against her. You are going to have to let that go in order for you to heal. Would you tell another person that tells you goodbye, "goodbye". Would you provide a response?

She want deceive you if you just tell her goodbye. I understand you don't want to be friends, but giving salutations, won't make you friends. You can have a cordial relationship, and also respect yourself.

She stills has some control over you as long as, you keep holding this vendetta against her. FREE YOURSELF, by allowing yourself to treat her like a normal person.

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve!

Thanks a lot for the post! Yes I am in IC but I took a long break because I started paying the crossfit gym and with the house in Munich it was too much on the plate, what I will do this time is most likely come here more often and talk to you all.

I dont think there ever was a "bad" Pack. I guess my perspective of all of this is changing and as I see what W never gave me (having acknowledged and continue working on my own controlling and lack of empathy issues), I get again all those feelings of "why cannot she value all that we had and how hard it was to achieve?" or "were my needs being covered by her?". Reading her cold emails, finishing on sentences like "you have my phone and email in case you need to clarify this or that about the kids" is still harsh on me. These feelings fuel me to continue focusing on Pack because I feel I am not detached to the level I should be.

I was walking the other day back from a school party, S2 on my shoulders and S7 by my hand. We walked pass W's father and he was pretending to not have seen me. I shouted out his name and said hello with a smile. I dont understand why they all behave like that around me, like I destroyed her and I have to be shunt away like an infected rat. Just wanted to share it here, nothing major.

I havent heard back from W regarding her brother's wedding, I honestly wanted to ask the board for help because I was not sure I was reacting on a healthy way. Nothing is going to change the fact that I think her values are now rotten and it is a farce to want our children to get actively involved in church traditions.

I am trying to put my kids and PIES ahead of everything else in my life. I went shopping today for some new summer clothes (remember to not back slide from the well earned changes! ) and the day before yesterday I passed my motorbike track exam! Only the road one left and I can own a Honda! I am starting to lift heavier weights at crossfit and I feel myself a more mature professional in my team now that I know I can handle complex projects alone.

I have been feeling like I am failing to have a cordial R with W and that is poor on my side wrt the kids. Let me explain, now every time we exchange the kids she smiles and says oh goodbye Pack! Or she maybe asks me "why cant you just tell me goodbye like I am a person?", or she jokes with the kids or she tells me something about S2. When I hear or see this all I can think is, "too late W, you have gone too far and I deserve so much better". I dont want to be vindictive or harsh or disrespectful and I have mentioned before in this board that I dont want to be friends with W, I have good friends already and I expected something very different from our M. Again same as before, I have thoughts that I might be immature or vindictive.

Why is it so hard for me to trust my instinct and values as a man? I have never been a bad person, for sure, I should trust my heart and my head much more than I do. After all she has done and after all the blame, the accusations, the manipulation, threats and ignorance, this is how my heart reacts to this fake chit-chat talk she tries to start. I am sure some of you will understand me and help me. I will be forever grateful for all the people in this board because honestly you are helping me save Pack from this ugly wreck.

Thank you all! ((hugs)), Pack

Wow, very honest and forthright post, Pack. I am sincerely moved by your desire to share these deep, inner-feelings here, and talk about your struggles. We all have them, and so I am very proud of you for being able to come here and say "I should be crushing all this but feel like I am not."

I understand fully what you mean by not being her friend. And not wanting to even pretend. We all have people in our lives that want to be closer to us than we want to be to them. It is part of life. My advice is to just keep doing what you are doing. Do you. 1. Kid. 2. PIES. 3 EVERYTHING else. Keep sticking to business with your Ex. When she asks questions like "explain, now every time we exchange the kids she smiles and says oh goodbye Pack! Or she maybe asks me "why cant you just tell me goodbye like I am a person?" just something that validates her feelings. But I do not think you should do anything disingenuous, or that you aren't comfortable with.

Next time she says something like that, maybe just explain to her that there is a lot of water under the bridge and that you are still trying to sort everything out in your mind. Be honest with her. "I am still struggling with what our R should look like moving forward." Something that let's her know that you aren't where she appears to be in that regard. Reassure her that you will continue to work with her WRT the kids and coparenting. But beyond that you are still figuring out how to relate to her with everything that has happened.

As far as the incident with her dad. Remember, these situations are completely uncomfortable for the people on the periphery. My neice's baby-daddy, who was abusive towards her, came up to me at their son's 1 year-old b-day (pre-COVID) and shook my hand. I didn't want to shake his had, but the "nice" side of me had me doing so. But trying to know how to act around family member's exes is always uncomfortable. So cut him some slack. He is in an uncomfortable position around you in the best of circumstances. Not to mention what his daughter may have told him about you.

[Pack_19]

Hi Steve, all,

Thanks again for your posts. Things are getting better I think. I am working a lot on my PIES and on accepting that this is my new life permanently and fighting those thoughts about the value in all I shared with my ex-W. At the same time, I keep high in my head all the comments from LH19 (that I need to learn to walk away from things that dont work for me, that I should listen to the voice in my head that tells me I deserve better, that I must work on my boundaries and self esteem...)

I finished the project at work, it has been a great success! But now there is a new one coming right after holidays on the 16th August and I feel this year is going to be very demanding. I also got a second hand carbon road bike, it is quite old but it will do the job to get me started. Now that the kids are with W for some days, I am back to running and I can say I am better than right after covid. From an emotional point of view I am working hard on not chasing people and being a light beam for those that do want to be in my life, learning what women expect from us, having a clear vision of my principles and the man and father I want to be. Perhaps the best piece of news is that we might have a buyer for the house in Munich, that should finally set me free financially from our M. As you know, I struggle a lot with the house, I got some new pictures from the person that will help us with the selling and it just looks great. I cannot remove the emotional load the house has as an achievement and the plan for my life I had with her and the kids. I am trying to make an effort to think, with the earnings from the house I will afford a humble performance car, which I have always wanted as a dream, but it feels I am forcing myself to see this in a selfish way to accept my life plans have been dynamited. Hopefully you know what I mean.

Now that all that W has done, the stories about OMs and her attitude from day one is starting to hit me as I gain back confidence and see again the value in the things I had provided and continue to bring to my family; I am very scared of this vindictive attitude that is growing in me and the worst is how sometimes I still get occasional comments from S7 that he would love to have his mom and dad together again and all I can think is now the "no" is on my side as I deserve much better than all of this. Don't misunderstand me, I have a clear picture of my mistakes and areas of improvement, but now is like I despise the woman she has become and I dont want anything to do with her and I feel again like I am being immature in being unable to say "W, I have suffered a lot, but I wish you no wrong, I hope you can be happy and rebuild your life". But when I see her, I still see my W and the mother of my children and I cannot understand what we did so wrong that this situation is better for us four... what is wrong with my head?

I need support from the board in a subject. W had covid last week and she was mean to have the kids the first fortnight in July. We had a chat over email and when I asked her to clarify when she tested positive to make sure it was save for S3 she replied in a bitter tone via email that the doctor had told her last Tuesday and she needed not my permission to go out but only inform me. I dont know where this comments come from, eventually she had to put off the date till Thursday to pick them up and I have not known when she tested positive (if I ask is like I want to control her or get my nose in her life from her point of view). So after picking them up she has asked me if they can stay longer with her because I then have 15 days with them.

On the 23rd was my S3 birthday, all I could do is send W a message asking her to wish him happy birthday from my side. I got a picture and that was all. I went to bed feeling like crap, my son turns 3 and I am not there. And worst is this is the first of many to come...I need to get stronger emotionally, I know, but this hurts same as the day they all 3 left home in Munich and I was left there with my head spinning, crying and unable to understand what was happening.

Yesterday I was video calling S7 and I had the brilliant idea of asking him. This is what happened after I talked to S7 about his day and how he was doing.
Me: S7, mommy asked me if you can stay with her 1 or 2 days more, for me it is not a problem, are you ok to stay or would you like to come with me next Saturday?
S7: I want to go with you daddy.
W- Interrupts from the background: S7, you told me you wanted to stay.
S7: yes daddy, I what to stay. Mom said if I stay I will have time to open the new mario lego she got us.
Me: Oh ok! I have no new toys but yes of course you can stay, I wanted to see what you thought!
W - again from the background - I am not buying them, it is YOU the one that always buys them. Stop getting MY son in between this and manipulating them against me.

I immediately hanged up. I got a message later from S7 asking if I was mad, I replied I wasnt I just got nervous and I didn't want him to see any more fights between his mom and me. My friends were present, they rapidly told me I was making a big mistake, that my chats with S7 should be about how much I love him and how he is doing, and THAT is all.
I tried to explain it to them, they told me they knew it hurt beyond they could understand but my number 1 should be the kids, and for them I need to avoid all conflicts and suck up my pride.

I feel they are right and I messed up yesterday, so here comes my request for support. I talk about many things with S7, I try to show him I care about his opinion even when I make decisions against it. Did I make a mistake by asking him about this subject? what things should I share and what things do I need to keep away from him? How can I prevent W being snooping there all the time when I talk to S7?? can I even do that without hurting S7 feelings?

I honestly asked yesterday thinking I can grant her 1 or 2 days more (this is how stupid I am), even when I only have 15 days holidays this summer and I want to make the most of them with my children as these days are in between projects and I will have to go back to working until 18 every day. Now all I can think is, W I am sorry you got covid and could not enjoy them for longer, but I cannot compromise my holidays with them for you. I am not here to do any more sacrifices for you anymore. Should I let them stay 1 or 2 days more?? I feel like I try to be nice, to stay away from her and to heal. When we have informal encounters, she is all cheerful and nice. When she needs something from me or I go against her, we are back to blame insults and hurtful statements. Can I please have your opinion on what I have done wrong and need to improve and how to deal with these requests from W from the point of view of a strong man that is finally willing to show her I wont tolerate any more disrespect and humiliation?

Thank you all, I am talking to my new layer to file as soon as I sell the house in Munich. I have so much work to do on myself, but I am sure I will become the best man, father and partner I can be when this hell is over and I can finally drop all my attachment to our life as a family. This time I am really looking forward to your answers, thanks a lot, for helping me grow to become a better person and being blunt and sincere.

((hugs)) Pack

[LH19]

So Pack quickly you have to suck it up and put your kids first in those conversations. Your son thinks you hung up on him not your STBXW.

If you don’t want to give up time with the kids then don’t. No grand statements just say no.

You are still in love with the fantasy. It doesn’t exist.

Lastly, this isn’t who your STBXW has become. This is who she has always been. You just couldn’t see it.

[Gigi123]

Good old covid, well my son had it and it so transpired that my s7 stayed with his dad, whilst s5 (had covid) and stayed at home with me. It wasnt very nice not to have s7 at home for 5 days in a row, but once he was back home, we were back to normal schedule. We are going away for over 2 weeks shortly, it doesnt mean that H gets to have the boys for longer before or after. I personally think if it interferes with what you already have planned its a simple no, you stick to your schedule.

[Traveler]

Hi Pack,

Yes, you goofed. I kinda get your thinking--"Does S slightly prefer Mom's or Dad's place? I'll let him choose so he gets that +10% happiness." The problem is, you're making your S choose between Mom and Dad. He should never have to choose between his parents. The stress this creates outweighs any benefit asking his opinion might have offered.

Instead of worrying about snooping, I'd try not to tell S7 anything, either on these calls or while at your home, that he has to keep a secret or that you worry about mom overhearing. I expect Mom to be paying more attention to what you tell S for a spell.

[Traveler]

for them I need to avoid all conflicts and suck up my pride.

I doubt anybody here told you to "avoid all conflicts". We may have suggested you stop arguing.

W I am sorry you got covid and could not enjoy them for longer, but I cannot compromise my holidays with them for you. I am not here to do any more sacrifices for you anymore. Should I let them stay 1 or 2 days more??

E.g., "Sorry, I have plans already and will stick to our schedule." is light years better than starting an argument about how much you've sacrificed. Make a decision. State it. Move on.

[Traveler]

a strong man that is finally willing to show her I wont tolerate any more disrespect and humiliation?

First, why are you trying to "show her" things?

Second, what do you mean by "not tolerate disrespect"? If she never respects you, what then?

[SteveLW]

Pack, great news on the project. One of the things that turned my emotions around in my sitch was knocking it out of the park at work! Keep up the good work.

On the Munich house, let it go. Emotional detachment includes "things" that you are still putting emotional value on. There is no reason to hang on to a house that is keeping you attached for sentimental reasons. Get rid of it and go get that sports car!

As far as missing birthdays, you don't have to miss them. You just have to celebrate them later (or sooner). People put so much artificial emphasis on the DAY. Is the DAY more important than celebrating with your child? Of course not. So when you have him, celebrate the birthday with him! Use this same perspective with holidays. The holiday doesn't have to be celebrated on the day, it can be celebrated whenever is convenient. I see so many D'd people struggle with this needlessly.

Yes, you should not have put your S7 in the middle of that. He clearly felt he had to tell you both yes. SO learn and grow from this, do not beat yourself up. You made a mistake. They happen. Mistakes are not the problem. Not learning from them is. So learn and grow from that mistake.

As far as whether or not you should give her the extra 1 or 2 days, that is entirely up to you. I will never fault someone for wanting to spend more time with their kids. So if that 1 or 2 days is important to you then you tell her that her illness was unfortunate but that you have plans for the kids for all 18 days and you will not be willing to give up any of that time. Don't let her have them to be "nice" but don't not let her to be vengeful. Remember, emotionally detached. Make the decision based on what YOU want.

[job]

New Thread:

Saving Pack through D, Pack_19 part V