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Posted By: SaltyDog Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/22/21 12:44 AM
Part 4. yay...

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Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/22/21 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
$400 an hour? Good lord! That’s insane.

At that rate they better guarantee total enlightenment after 1 session.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/22/21 01:55 AM
Hi Mumin, consider virtual sessions. It's $260/mo for unlimited therapy and often it's discounted to $200. Unlimited's nice when you're in the thick of things. The therapist I had there was quite good and charged more than that per-hour if you visited her office. I get Zoom sessions, audio files, texts, and e-mails aren't to everyone's tastes. Now that I go less often I prefer a local therapist who charges less.
Posted By: Mumin Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/22/21 08:01 AM
Yeah he is a bit of a hot shot. My job enlisted him for personal development or when someone is in crisis.
Typically we get 3-5 sessions and then you pay out of own pocket. I saw him a lot more than that the past year and never payed.
After D it’s not the same setup.
Healthcare/insurance won’t cover here, basically unless I am incapable of work.

I will check his online prices though. May be a lot cheaper.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/24/21 04:16 PM
So we've finally settled into a routine - it helps to have a week without a family member contemplating suicide and/or breaking bones and going to the ER. She was at the studio last week and I had the kids at the house, today we switch. I've been keeping things "aloof but available" and to be fair, work was sh!t last week so I didn't have much energy to think about other things as I usually would. I also heard that one of my best friends dad passed away. We grew up on the same street and have known each other all our lives, families used to do things together, 47 years of b-day parties, graduations, BBQs, weddings, births, etc. so it was a blow. Much more than I had imagined it would be. My friend went thru a similar situation as me, his wife left him for a co-worker about a year ago, so we've been helping each other out lately.

In talking to my IC I told her how much I just wanted to run. Not to anywhere specific, but just get in the car and run. Sometime between being a single parent, work, this whole separation, people dying, and everything else it just makes you want to tap out and bail. I won't. I know that. But it sounds nice. Buy a 1-way ticket to Manzanita, MX and live on a beach. lol. Anyway - pity party and MLC over.

I've also been reading back through my posts since joining and wanted to thank all of you who have taken the time to chime in and offer help. I deeply appreciate it - no matter how this works out you've helped me handle it better and be a better person in the end. So thank you.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/24/21 04:25 PM
SD sorry to hear about your friends dad.

So what do you see is the end game?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/24/21 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So what do you see is the end game?

Depends on the day and the mood to be honest. Lately I've been looking at houses/rentals in the area to get an idea of what's out there and doable. I'm throwing away/donating stuff I don't need or want. Researching options. It wasn't a conscious decision either, just found myself doing it. I find myself looking at fixer-uppers and getting excited about buying them and working on them how I'd like to with full autonomy. Of course that isn't happening soon, but it is obviously pulling at me. I also wonder if that is just a grass-is-greener fantasy that assumes all my troubles will be gone.

I know I won't move forward with a D until I can say I KNOW it is the right thing to do, and I still can't say that I know it for sure, but the thought has gone from making me queasy to making me a bit excited. In the meantime I gotta figure out what my future looks like otherwise. I have a job that pays me well and has good security that is draining my soul. First world problem, I know, especially in the time of Covid. But it's bleeding over into other aspects of my life and I think it is a big part of me GAL that will impact my overall happiness. Beyond that it's putting more and more into me. I'm contemplating extending Dry January into February (at least until Valentine's, I got no plans on being sober on the 14th), joining a rock climbing gym that is opening in town, and continuing my other activities.

I see it as setting my sights on a journey of being a better me and I'm gearing up for the trip.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/25/21 01:47 AM
Hey Salty,

I'm sorry for about your friend's dad. Losing someone during this already trying time seems to hit harder.

You sound like you are moving in the right direction. Yes, set your sights on your journey! That is exciting. I don't think it's "grass is greener" - I think it's facing the reality. I think not moving to D until you know it's the right thing to do is wise.

FWP's are still challenging. I'm confident that you will make a good decision for you.

Maybe extending the "dry months" would give you confidence? You don't need booze to feel good. You don't need it to have fun. (Full disclosure - I fasted from alcohol for 3 years. It was a blessing to me.) It's nice to know I can take it or leave it. I needed to grow in my own self-confidence and that was something I could control. Not for everyone.

Stay strong and thanks for sharing your ups and downs. You never know who is going through it or will go through it later and these stories help! I read the boards for many months before I posted anything.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/25/21 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by 97Hope
You sound like you are moving in the right direction. Yes, set your sights on your journey! That is exciting. I don't think it's "grass is greener" - I think it's facing the reality.
At the very least it makes you realize there is a future beyond all this and it could very likely even be better than what you had once you make it through all the sh!t.
Originally Posted by 97Hope
Maybe extending the "dry months" would give you confidence? You don't need booze to feel good. You don't need it to have fun. (Full disclosure - I fasted from alcohol for 3 years. It was a blessing to me.) It's nice to know I can take it or leave it. I needed to grow in my own self-confidence and that was something I could control. Not for everyone.
I am toying with the idea of extending it. I joke about not being sober on Valentine's but I as I say it I cringe at the thought - I'd be miserable. This month has been one of the best months I've had in terms of getting my sh!t together and I think a lot of that is not drinking. I've lost 15lbs so far and that drinking/bloated face is going away. I wake up early and without a headache. I remember what I did the night before instead of waking up after a bender and worrying about what I did or said. So yeah, keeping this going is a good thing.
Originally Posted by 97Hope

Stay strong and thanks for sharing your ups and downs. You never know who is going through it or will go through it later and these stories help! I read the boards for many months before I posted anything.
Thanks - I see it as helping myself but if it helps others that's awesome. I don't engage on other's posts much only because I don't feel like I'm one to offer advice - lol.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/25/21 11:11 PM
So I'm not seeing too many "good" reasons to go back to drinking....puffy face, anxiety, weight gain, headaches....IDK man.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Thanks - I see it as helping myself but if it helps others that's awesome. I don't engage on other's posts much only because I don't feel like I'm one to offer advice - lol.


I had a few gals last year and we were horrible at going dark so we started commenting on each other's posts because it seemed easy to see in another person's sitch where they were going wrong - and then we had to follow our own advice! LOL

You can always comment on mine. I like hearing other's perspectives. Don't be shy.

Yes. There is a future beyond the now. There is hope. We just have to know where to look and where to stop looking.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/26/21 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by 97Hope
So I'm not seeing too many "good" reasons to go back to drinking....puffy face, anxiety, weight gain, headaches....IDK man.

Very true and the fact I am even contemplating it is nuts for me. I wasn't a full blown alcoholic, more like a functioning one, and the mere thought of not drinking caused anxiety because it was such a crutch. I already gave up smoking 7 years ago after 30+ years so I feel like all my vices are going away!

Quote
There is a future beyond the now. There is hope. We just have to know where to look and where to stop looking.
I just wrote something similar in my journal. Last night was a rough one, a reality check, and I felt myself sliding back into a pity party. I hung out there for a bit and then was able to turn the focus off all the sh!t that makes me miserable and onto the good stuff and the future. I'm down 30lbs from my all-time high back in August, I'm able to start working out again without my rib hurting too much, I feel better inside and out, I haven't drank in 25 days, and I feel more in control of myself and my life. And in a twisted way, I have her to thank for it. Not that I am doing it for her, but that she supplied the fuel and the kick in the ass. So when the darker days/thoughts come I feel like I have more tools and weapons to fight back. Which is good, because the dark days and thoughts sure as sh!t aren't going anywhere soon.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/26/21 08:06 PM
Quote
I already gave up smoking 7 years ago after 30+ years so I feel like all my vices are going away!


Okay, so what's left once the vices are gone?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/26/21 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
I already gave up smoking 7 years ago after 30+ years so I feel like all my vices are going away!


Okay, so what's left once the vices are gone?


Reality. Un-numbed reality. Which is both exciting and scary AF. And uncharted territory.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Reality. Un-numbed reality. Which is both exciting and scary AF. And uncharted territory.


It's ALL uncharted territory. We just 'thought' we knew what our future held. laugh
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So when the darker days/thoughts come I feel like I have more tools and weapons to fight back. Which is good, because the dark days and thoughts sure as sh!t aren't going anywhere soon.

Yo SD, what do these dark thoughts look like?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So when the darker days/thoughts come I feel like I have more tools and weapons to fight back. Which is good, because the dark days and thoughts sure as sh!t aren't going anywhere soon.

Yo SD, what do these dark thoughts look like?

They tend to be around what she's doing and/or what she's done or at least start there. Picturing things, ruminating about them, wondering who she is with, if she's thinking about me, building out all sorts of worst-case scenarios in my head which spiral into anxiety and fear. That then tends to take over my focus. I start thinking about the future and all the sh!t we'll have to go through if we D, the kids, the friends, etc. And from there it just builds into this insurmountable pile of crap in my head and constant anxiety.

Lately I've been able to cut that cycle once I feel it starting, or at least pull myself out of it, by shifting my focus from the bad to the good and by being aware and conscious that what I am THINKING isn't necessarily real, or helpful. I can (attempt) to acknowledge that negative feeling or thought and then let it pass instead of getting sucked into it and spending energy battling it.

One example is that I was at the studio and we share a work desk for when we're here. There is a spiral notebook in the drawer - it isn't anybody's it is just there to use. I've used to when playing games with my son, she's left notes for me in it. I needed to use it for a work meeting and find there's a page in there with her notes, and while I don't know the full context of them were about someone else but obviously didn't look like they were about me. In the past, that would've been the trigger for a full-blown meltdown. And it did begin to trigger one, for sure. But at some point I was able to pull back and ask myself "is there anything here you didn't already know or expect?" and "Does reading this change anything when it comes to what you need to do?" and I was able to put some space between me and the feelings rather than dwelling in them and 30 minutes later it had mostly passed. I didn't call her on it, bring it up, or focus on it. I left it in there and used the notebook for my work notes. Of course, I did manage to leave my notes in there and when I came back the next time her page had been ripped out. So I am still a little childish. lol.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
They tend to be around what she's doing and/or what she's done or at least start there. Picturing things, ruminating about them, wondering who she is with, if she's thinking about me, building out all sorts of worst-case scenarios in my head which spiral into anxiety and fear.

Things are typically no where near as bad as we imagine.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
That then tends to take over my focus. I start thinking about the future and all the sh!t we'll have to go through if we D, the kids, the friends, etc. And from there it just builds into this insurmountable pile of crap in my head and constant anxiety.

This I can promise you is not even close to being as bad as you imagine.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
One example is that I was at the studio and we share a work desk for when we're here. There is a spiral notebook in the drawer - it isn't anybody's it is just there to use. I've used to when playing games with my son, she's left notes for me in it. I needed to use it for a work meeting and find there's a page in there with her notes, and while I don't know the full context of them were about someone else but obviously didn't look like they were about me. In the past, that would've been the trigger for a full-blown meltdown. And it did begin to trigger one, for sure. But at some point I was able to pull back and ask myself "is there anything here you didn't already know or expect?" and "Does reading this change anything when it comes to what you need to do?" and I was able to put some space between me and the feelings rather than dwelling in them and 30 minutes later it had mostly passed. I didn't call her on it, bring it up, or focus on it. I left it in there and used the notebook for my work notes. Of course, I did manage to leave my notes in there and when I came back the next time her page had been ripped out. So I am still a little childish. lol.

So this is soul sucking for you. How much longer can you keep this up? How much longer can you knowingly share your W with other dudes?

When it comes to intimate, personal and professional negotiations, the person who has the most to lose is in the weaker position of leverage. By knowing what you want and loving and valuing yourself, you can set and enforce healthy boundaries to make sure everyone in your life belongs there because they have proven through their actions that they deserve the gift of your time. This ensures that you never settle for less than what you are capable of having and creating in your life, because those that are not a match simply get bounced out of your life permanently.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So this is soul sucking for you. How much longer can you keep this up? How much longer can you knowingly share your W with other dudes?
I honest to God don't know. Part of me thinks "I'll know when I know." but then I think that's just a cop-out. In the meantime I try to focus on me and GAL and implement things when I can. We've had 2 interactions in the past 48 hours, both just about logistical stuff. My goal for now is to remove that focus on her or us and to focus on me. And doing that honestly, because it's easy to say you're doing something for yourself but in the back of your mind you're hoping it will change things in the R. I still struggle with that daily. I also have very low expectations that things are going to work out, and if it was to work out, that is going to be a long time from now. So that whole side of things is still pretty muddy.

Quote
When it comes to intimate, personal and professional negotiations, the person who has the most to lose is in the weaker position of leverage.
I totally see this and there's no doubt I am still in the weaker position. But it is no longer nearly as lopsided as it was. In the past I couldn't see a future. I couldn't imagine life without our family being together. Now I can not only see a future, but maybe a better one! I can look in the mirror with some self-respect instead of loathing. And as that progresses, I can see where she will be the one with more to lose. Or maybe I'm blowing smoke up my own ass, but it's possible.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 08:14 PM
SD I am not saying to give up. I am saying to take some of your power back and tell her you are done with the nesting BS. You are not leaving your house and your bedroom anymore. She is welcome to stay at the whor3 house full time.

Trust me you will feel empowered.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
SD I am not saying to give up. I am saying to take some of your power back and tell her you are done with the nesting BS. You are not leaving your house and your bedroom anymore. She is welcome to stay at the whor3 house full time.

Trust me you will feel empowered.

Got it - I've been thinking more and more about this. The answer is "soon" but not sure how soon. There are still some benefits for me when I'm here and can really focus on me without the constant interruptions of home. I had 4 hours straight of reading/taking notes last night with zero interruptions and total focus. That just isn't possible at home with 3 kids and a dog and nobody else there to help. So I guess when I feel like these moments of clarity and confidence that I find while at the studio become the norm instead of just moments.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by LH19
SD I am not saying to give up. I am saying to take some of your power back and tell her you are done with the nesting BS. You are not leaving your house and your bedroom anymore. She is welcome to stay at the whor3 house full time.

Trust me you will feel empowered.

Got it - I've been thinking more and more about this. The answer is "soon" but not sure how soon. There are still some benefits for me when I'm here and can really focus on me without the constant interruptions of home. I had 4 hours straight of reading/taking notes last night with zero interruptions and total focus. That just isn't possible at home with 3 kids and a dog and nobody else there to help. So I guess when I feel like these moments of clarity and confidence that I find while at the studio become the norm instead of just moments.

BS! Man up friend.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by LH19
SD I am not saying to give up. I am saying to take some of your power back and tell her you are done with the nesting BS. You are not leaving your house and your bedroom anymore. She is welcome to stay at the whor3 house full time.

Trust me you will feel empowered.

Got it - I've been thinking more and more about this. The answer is "soon" but not sure how soon. There are still some benefits for me when I'm here and can really focus on me without the constant interruptions of home. I had 4 hours straight of reading/taking notes last night with zero interruptions and total focus. That just isn't possible at home with 3 kids and a dog and nobody else there to help. So I guess when I feel like these moments of clarity and confidence that I find while at the studio become the norm instead of just moments.

BS! Man up friend.

I really wish you would stop sugar-coating things and give it to me straight!
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I had 4 hours straight of reading/taking notes last night with zero interruptions and total focus. That just isn't possible at home with 3 kids and a dog and nobody else there to help.

Hi Salty,

I get you're enjoying this place of peace and calm. It sounds like it fits a similar niche for you as an office, a quiet spot by a pond, or a table at a Starbucks--before COVID and winter. That explains why YOU want to be somewhere else for a few hours each day, even if your wife weren't in the picture. Many working adults feel the same way. What about dinner? What about bedtime? Do you prefer being alone then, or telling your kids a story and tucking them in? If you prefer their company, what keeps you from sleeping at home?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I had 4 hours straight of reading/taking notes last night with zero interruptions and total focus. That just isn't possible at home with 3 kids and a dog and nobody else there to help.

Hi Salty,

I get you're enjoying this place of peace and calm. It sounds like it fits a similar niche for you as an office, a quiet spot by a pond, or a table at a Starbucks--before COVID and winter. That explains why YOU want to be somewhere else for a few hours each day, even if your wife weren't in the picture. Many working adults feel the same way. What about dinner? What about bedtime? Do you prefer being alone then, or telling your kids a story and tucking them in? If you prefer their company, what keeps you from sleeping at home?
That's an interesting point and not something I had thought of. Using this place as an "office" when it is my time but then, like work, going home afterward. Hmm....I gotta think more about that.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 09:30 PM
On that same topic of stopping the nesting and sleeping in my own bed - how does that work when you're trying to make it so the WW doesn't get to have her cake and eat it to. Me sleeping in the same bed as her is something she would enjoy. When we have stayed the night together we are much closer than we used to be before all the BS. I see it as her being able to enjoy the comfort of us being together rather giving her a chance to miss that. Or am I off base?
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 09:31 PM
Hey Dawg....it's been a minute....

I have been reading though. I'm trying to get a read on you. Trying to get a good view of who you are , stripped of your current situation.

I feel like you are constantly on the edge of having a good excuse for just not doing better for yourself.

I feel like you are always looking for the easy way out of this situation.

I feel like you are still trying to hold her accountable for your decisions, and holding her responsible for your emotions.

What LH and everyone else is trying to get you to see, is that taking back YOUR power isn't totally about the bedroom, or the house, or whatever physical thing that is presenting itself that particular day...

Taking back your power is about holding yourself responsible for all that crap in your life.

Understanding that she isn't consciously doing any of this to deliberately hurt you, or wound you. she is doing this for herself. And if you can step back and see the good in this.....at "end game" , it will be for you too ...

IF you allow that to happen...

Your job right now is to grow, learn, heal, and work on yourself, and just making better choices and decisions for yourself and your life.

It isn't about "winning" or "losing"...

It isn't about "punishing" her....

Some days, it's about surviving, some days it's about thriving. THAT my friend....is YOUR choice.


What defines you, as a man, isn't about what happens TO you, it's about what you do after that....

You should never be defined by having a ring on your left hand, nor should you ever be defined by the worst thing that you have ever been through.....


All of this Dawg, is your choice....

You choose to stand, you choose to fall...

You choose to thrive, you choose to fail...

It's all on you....

Soooooo.....

What do YOU want ????


How do you get there ???

How will you know when you get there ???

How do you stay there once you get there ????
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/27/21 10:21 PM
Hey Mach - always enjoy your responses and questions!
Originally Posted by Mach1
I have been reading though. I'm trying to get a read on you. Trying to get a good view of who you are , stripped of your current situation.

I feel like you are constantly on the edge of having a good excuse for just not doing better for yourself.

I feel like you are always looking for the easy way out of this situation.

I wouldn't argue with most of this. I also read through my posts recently and it wasn't pleasant. Like I mention in one of my previous posts, I've been (and am) the type to choose something certain that s*cks instead of something uncertain that might be better. I see that and I know that, but making that change is another story.
Originally Posted by Mach1
I feel like you are still trying to hold her accountable for your decisions, and holding her responsible for your emotions.
This I would argue. I am responsible for my emotions and my decisions, not her. In the past in our R I definitely blamed her and resented her for my emotions but looking back now that was 100% on me for not speaking up and for being a "Nice Guy."
Originally Posted by Mach1
What LH and everyone else is trying to get you to see, is that taking back YOUR power isn't totally about the bedroom, or the house, or whatever physical thing that is presenting itself that particular day...

Taking back your power is about holding yourself responsible for all that crap in your life.

I get that. And I am working on it and I feel like I am making headway. I know in the past I was the type to let her make the decisions and I went along for the ride and avoided conflict like the plague. Making these changes is uncomfortable and against my past nature, but I realize in order for me to be happy (with or without her) I need to make these changes.
Originally Posted by Mach1
Understanding that she isn't consciously doing any of this to deliberately hurt you, or wound you. she is doing this for herself. And if you can step back and see the good in this.....at "end game" , it will be for you too ...
This is a realization I came to recently as well and I do see "the good" in this. Had she not done this I would still be the same person I was - depressed, going through each day numb, no drive, drinking, and just feeling unsatisfied. Her doing this was the kick in the ass I couldn't give myself. I don't blame her for bailing. She was stronger than me and able to stand up and say "I'm not happy and things need to change." But I'm also working on getting past blaming myself as well and forgiving myself. that part is hard.
Originally Posted by Mach1
It isn't about "winning" or "losing"...

It isn't about "punishing" her....

I haven't experienced that (yet). I don't feel like punishing her. In a lot of ways I pity her. Beyond me and our current situation she's got a lot of broken stuff to work on. That's not to say I'm perfect, but she's wayward also in that she's lost herself and she's grasping at anything at this point. She mentioned going to Africa and living off the grid at one point. I nodded politely. I guess that's why I have low expectations of us ending up together. She's so lost right now I don't know if she'll ever find her way and I also don't know once she does that I will want to be with her. Because I sure as sh!t am not moving to Africa.
Originally Posted by Mach1
Some days, it's about surviving, some days it's about thriving. THAT my friend....is YOUR choice.
I can honestly say that since the BD I have had more days of thriving than I had in the year prior. I've also had some of the worst days of my life. But at least I'm feeling them again. I don't like hurting, but I don't want to be numb again. I want to experience things again rather than just going through the motions.
Originally Posted by Mach1
Soooooo.....

What do YOU want ????

How do you get there ???

How will you know when you get there ???

How do you stay there once you get there ????

These are all the things I'm working on figuring out every day. I also look in the mirror each day ask myself "Who am I?" Seems silly but it centers me a bit and gets me to focus on that very basic question. Of the things you listed above, the one that I am the most scared of is "How do you stay there once you get there ????" because I can think of nothing worse than going through all of this only to fall back into the old patterns. I mentioned it to LH19 at one point that if I had gone hard on DBing back in November or so, and it worked and she changed her mind and came back, would I have stuck with that path? Knowing me, I don't think I would've and I'd be right back here in 6 months or a year.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/28/21 11:08 PM
Quote
These are all the things I'm working on figuring out every day. I also look in the mirror each day ask myself "Who am I?" Seems silly but it centers me a bit and gets me to focus on that very basic question.


How would it work if you looked in the mirror and told yourself who you were going to become? Give yourself an assignment or small goal for that day that would help you make a step closer to growing into the man you want to be.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 01/31/21 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
These are all the things I'm working on figuring out every day. I also look in the mirror each day ask myself "Who am I?" Seems silly but it centers me a bit and gets me to focus on that very basic question.


How would it work if you looked in the mirror and told yourself who you were going to become? Give yourself an assignment or small goal for that day that would help you make a step closer to growing into the man you want to be.


I like that idea. For the assignment I've already got ideas. One thing I am trying to incorporate is doing at least 1 thing I am uncomfortable with every day. Something that I would normally avoid. As someone who always tends to avoid conflict or uncomfortable situations it is kind of a slow inoculation to those feelings.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/01/21 12:02 PM
Quote
I like that idea. For the assignment I've already got ideas. One thing I am trying to incorporate is doing at least 1 thing I am uncomfortable with every day. Something that I would normally avoid. As someone who always tends to avoid conflict or uncomfortable situations it is kind of a slow inoculation to those feelings.



Great! smile

Just remember to stay balanced.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 04:10 PM
So here's the latest and greatest. Things for the most part have been good, in that we've settled into a routine and are figuring out what that looks like with the apt/nesting situation. Even with that schedule we've often ended up staying together at home. For example yesterday I realized I left my meds at the house so stopped by to get them, we ended up talking for a while and she invited me to stay. When we do stay together, we often have sex, she has no problems being naked in front of me (almost the opposite), and we sleep in each others arms. In talking with my IC she thinks things are good between us because we've taken the "other" stuff out of the equation and are just focusing on us when we're together - not kids, house, jobs, etc. So just as if we were dating or something. In our conversation yesterday it sounds like whatever was happening with OM is over and she was the one who ended it. She isn't active on the dating sites, but hasn't left them either. She mentioned all the positive changes she's seen in me and the work I've put in on myself but she doesn't see the work being put in towards being more emotionally available and vulnerable with her. I told her again that I have a very hard time doing that with the current situation. I explained that when I have made myself open and vulnerable, it was like I was throwing a ball over the fence to her and she would catch it and say "thanks! I appreciate that!" and put the ball in her pocket instead of throwing it back. And as long as she's not gonna throw the ball back, I'm not gonna want to keep throwing them to her. She agreed and said - "at least I'm catching the ball now and keeping it, rather than just letting it land on the ground and leaving it."

It's like we're at an impasse. She wants to see me being emotionally available to her and is scared to do the same because she's done it in the past and I didn't reciprocate. I don't feel like I can open up to her like that as long as she's still on the dating sites and not being open back to me. Essentially, neither of us trusts each other. And that's a bitch.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 04:35 PM
I don't even know what the fuching ball analogy means.

I think you need to make it clear for you to be vulnerable you have to ditch the hore house and she needs to get herself into IC and then eventually MC.

You can't just take a break from your marriage so she can sleep around for awhile and then go back to normal. It doesn't work that way. I think you see progress and I see a severely damaged individual.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 04:51 PM
Quote
She mentioned all the positive changes she's seen in me and the work I've put in on myself but she doesn't see the work being put in towards being more emotionally available and vulnerable with her.


Priceless! smirk
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I don't even know what the fuching ball analogy means.

Just that she wants me to be the one to be open and vulnerable without her having to do the same.
Originally Posted by LH19
I think you need to make it clear for you to be vulnerable you have to ditch the hore house and she needs to get herself into IC and then eventually MC.

You can't just take a break from your marriage so she can sleep around for awhile and then go back to normal.

She's in IC and in some ways that is what triggered a lot of what is going on now. Last year they started really digging into her past and issues and that led to her revisiting things which led to her contacting the OM, etc. etc. Do I think she's sleeping around? No. Is that naive of me? Probably. Ultimately, it doesn't matter until she tells me that she is or I somehow confirm it. In the meantime I am not going to torture myself dwelling on it.
Originally Posted by LH19
I think you see progress and I see a severely damaged individual.
I see progress in a damaged individual. I see progress in us. I don't see progress in our ability to sustain it if all the other strains and stresses of marriage/family are added back into the equation.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 05:17 PM
So you see the apartment as escape from real life for her?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So you see the apartment as escape from real life for her?

An escape from it along with a place to figure out what she wants "real life" to look like in the future.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/09/21 05:37 PM
hmmmm. I am guessing every woman with multiple children would want one of those. Good for her!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/11/21 06:58 PM
Quote
She's in IC and in some ways that is what triggered a lot of what is going on now. Last year they started really digging into her past and issues and that led to her revisiting things which led to her contacting the OM, etc. etc.


Are you aware of her past? I mean, has she talked it to you?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/12/21 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
She's in IC and in some ways that is what triggered a lot of what is going on now. Last year they started really digging into her past and issues and that led to her revisiting things which led to her contacting the OM, etc. etc.


Are you aware of her past? I mean, has she talked it to you?


Yes, she's been open to me about it. The other day she shared more detail about an event I knew about but not the extent of it. Her therapist having her go back and revisit these events basically opened a pandora's box of unresolved issues that she never dealt with, at least in a healthy way. And it was during this time that I had basically tapped out emotionally for my own reasons which led to her finding the support she needed elsewhere.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/12/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
And it was during this time that I had basically tapped out emotionally for my own reasons which led to her finding the support she needed elsewhere.


I'm reminded of the quote from "The Last Boy Scout". I've thought about it a lot over the last couple of years...

“Sarah Hallenbeck: You were never around. You know what? F* you, Joe. I was lonely!"
"Joe Hallenbeck: Buy a dog.”



Yes, you should be emotionally available to your X. But lonely people have agency...in a MR - communicate needs, GAL, journal...teach a goat to yodel...so many other options than D and A's.

We choose what to do with our loneliness. Leave her to her own journey. IC is fabulous when it works. Keep being strong, read Sandi's rules (again and again) and be a lighthouse.

Hang in there, Salty!!
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/12/21 10:20 PM
Sorry - to clarify - You should HAVE been emotionally available to your X. Past. Yikes.

That is something within your control for healthy, stable relationships. Do not be emotionally available for an unsafe person.

x
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/13/21 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by 97Hope
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
And it was during this time that I had basically tapped out emotionally for my own reasons which led to her finding the support she needed elsewhere.


I'm reminded of the quote from "The Last Boy Scout". I've thought about it a lot over the last couple of years...

“Sarah Hallenbeck: You were never around. You know what? F* you, Joe. I was lonely!"
"Joe Hallenbeck: Buy a dog.”
Ha! That's a great line.
Originally Posted by 97Hope
Yes, you should be emotionally available to your X. But lonely people have agency...in a MR - communicate needs, GAL, journal...teach a goat to yodel...so many other options than D and A's.
Very true. I have accepted that it wasn't my "fault" but it will also sting at times. I also remind myself of the reasons I was checked out and all that I had to deal with which led to that perfect storm. It wasn't like I was doing it for sh!ts and giggles, but it is easy to rewrite history.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/13/21 11:19 PM
As much as you didn't want it, you have an opportunity to grow and be a better partner!

We have to look at the upside in this, even when it stinks. I had some major issues before BD. I could see where he wasn't happy, but I would have liked the opportunity to work on them, rather than just get dumped. I don't feel that 'sting' anymore, but I understand what you mean. I had to work through those feelings and just focus on what I could do better/different going forward.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 12:43 AM
Figured I should post an update after reading sandi2's thread.

No real BIG changes to report. We did spend Valentine's together and also most of this weekend. Our time together has been some of the best we've had in years tbh. Even kissing on the lips, which seems small but was something that went away even while we were still sleeping together. The time apart is still tough as it is hard not to get caught up in your head not matter how much you try to GAL. In our talks she has said she has not gone on any dates and has only chatted online and I believe her, but of course that could change at any time. In talking with our MC last week about attachment theory, there's a lot there I can see that is impacting us. Basically her avoidance right now is still too big to want any attachment and my anxiousness adds pressure. We're in a catch-22. She's afraid of turning back and giving things another try because she thinks it will go back to how it used to be and doesn't trust that I can provide what she needs. I can't provide what she needs as long as she refuses to turn back and try and I can't trust her fully in the current situation. Sooner or later, something will have to give as we can't stay in limbo. I'm not putting deadlines or dates out there, but figure I'll know when it is time.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 01:33 AM
SD,

More then likely it will end when she finds someone else. You are going to always have regrets that you didn’t take the safety net away.
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Basically her avoidance right now is still too big to want any attachment and my anxiousness adds pressure.


Neither style is very healthy... There is always a CHOICE to be different than your attachment style. I understand that can be really difficult in a heated moment so you can set some guidelines in place. It may seem a little unnatural but it can really help when emotions run high. Have you thought about how you can control your anxious attachment?

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
We're in a catch-22. She's afraid of turning back and giving things another try because she thinks it will go back to how it used to be and doesn't trust that I can provide what she needs. I can't provide what she needs as long as she refuses to turn back and try and I can't trust her fully in the current situation.


Is this your MC talking? Did she give you any tools how to handle any of this info?

Have you read the threads on Pursuit/Distance? Might be beneficial to take a peek if not.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 02:12 PM
If your anxiety adds pressure, then that is clearly not working. Need to make a change there.

Also, I'll second LH's advice. It appears that was also his first post to you as well.

You are "putting yourself out there emotionally", which she allegedly wants. In return, she is on dating sites. Ahhhhh, but! There's a but! It's..... NOT. THAT. MUCH. Phew. Thank God. You can sleep easy now. She's only sorta on dating sites. This is the rationalization that so many LBS's make. Only emotional attachment could lead one to such a horrible conclusion.

Do you think she respects you?

Do you think your behaviors are attractive to women?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
SD,

More then likely it will end when she finds someone else. You are going to always have regrets that you didn’t take the safety net away.

That is entirely possible. Or I could take the safety net away and she could still find someone else in which case I would always regret not just listening to what she's telling me she wants. There's no telling the future. For now I am trying to provide her with what she is explicitly requesting from me with the full knowledge I will likely get hurt in the end and along the way. But I'll have a clear conscience
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Valeska19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Basically her avoidance right now is still too big to want any attachment and my anxiousness adds pressure.


Neither style is very healthy... There is always a CHOICE to be different than your attachment style. I understand that can be really difficult in a heated moment so you can set some guidelines in place. It may seem a little unnatural but it can really help when emotions run high. Have you thought about how you can control your anxious attachment?
Interesting thing is I went back and took the test again and put myself back to before BD and I was Fearful Avoidant - bad at boundaries and prone to emotional withdrawal. Sounds about right. For now my way of trying to control my anxiousness is to just realize I can't control her or change her. She's gonna do what she's gonna do and I can either be at her mercy (which I often am) or I can GAL and parallel path her and hope those paths cross down the line again.
Originally Posted by Valeska19
Is this your MC talking? Did she give you any tools how to handle any of this info?
She not so subtlety said the W needs to sh!t or get off the pot. We're in a double bind and nothing is going to change without taking a risk. In talking to my IC, the recommendation was "radical permission" to let her do whatever she wants and give her the room she feels like she needs. SImilar to a lot of what is said around here - pull back and give space to reduce the pressure she's feeling but in a more intentional way where I am letting her know I am giving her that space rather than pulling back and have her feel abandoned.
Originally Posted by Valeska19
Have you read the threads on Pursuit/Distance? Might be beneficial to take a peek if not.
I haven't - I will take a look, thank you!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
That is entirely possible. Or I could take the safety net away and she could still find someone else in which case I would always regret not just listening to what she's telling me she wants.

SD there needs to be non-negotiables in your life. I want to date other men should be a non-negotiable. What if she told you she wanted you to jump off the Eifel Tower? Would you listen to her and do it?
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
For now I am trying to provide her with what she is explicitly requesting from me with the full knowledge I will likely get hurt in the end and along the way.

Most likely because she is lost all respect for you.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
But I'll have a clear conscience

Doubt it. You will always wonder what would have happened if you took your balls back from her and earned some respect.

Your thinking right now is totally backwards.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
If your anxiety adds pressure, then that is clearly not working. Need to make a change there.

Yup, and it is something we discussed as well. She's asking for my to be open, so I am open and say "this isn't sustainable for me and at some point I will decide to stop the pain" which she then interprets as pressure because there's a expiration date. I told her she can't have it both ways - either you want me to be open which means hearing things you might not want to hear or you don't want me to be open because it causes you pressure.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
his is the rationalization that so many LBS's make. Only emotional attachment could lead one to such a horrible conclusion.
I don't disagree.
Quote
Do you think she respects you?
A year ago? No. Now? Yes, or at least much more than she did. Is it enough? Don't know.
Quote
Do you think your behaviors are attractive to women?
Kinda the same answer as above. A year ago when I was depressed and withdrawn - nope. Today? Much moreso. It isn't like I'm going to bars or have an opportunity to be around "women" but I've found myself in conversations at grocery stores or other random places that didn't used to happen. There's a marked change in my outward energy and overall confidence.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
That is entirely possible. Or I could take the safety net away and she could still find someone else in which case I would always regret not just listening to what she's telling me she wants.

SD there needs to be non-negotiables in your life. I want to date other men should be a non-negotiable. What if she told you she wanted you to jump off the Eifel Tower? Would you listen to her and do it?

Obviously not.
Originally Posted by LH19
Most likely because she is lost all respect for you.
Nope. She had lost respect for me, no doubt. But I can tell you without a doubt she has more for me now than she did. Might be too little, too late, but it is there.
Originally Posted by LH19
Doubt it. You will always wonder what would have happened if you took your balls back from her and earned some respect.
There is more than one way to earn respect and show you have balls.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 06:47 PM
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I told you on day one I had hope for you and I usually don't have hope after reading opening threads.

I guess you hold out hope that because she is married and has three young kids she is not desirable to potential suitors and shell eventually gives up trying to replace you.

Only time will tell.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by LH19


I guess you hold out hope that because she is married and has three young kids she is not desirable to potential suitors and shell eventually gives up trying to replace you.


Wow, SD is that true? "She can't find anyone better so maybe she'll come back to me by default!" Not sure that would be the thinking of an alpha.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
There is more than one way to earn respect and show you have balls.


SD, so what are the other ways? What do they look like? For me there are two criteria for commanding respect:

- You act in ways that are worthy of respect
- You do things from a position of strength

If LH's characterization is correct and you want her to fail in finding someone else due to her circumstances so she'll come back to you....I am not sure that is living up to either of those criteria.

LH is really good at giving guidance related to finding your "balls" and earning respect. You'd do well to listen to his advice on that. But in the end it is up to you as to how you approach it.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I told you on day one I had hope for you and I usually don't have hope after reading opening threads.

I guess you hold out hope that because she is married and has three young kids she is not desirable to potential suitors and shell eventually gives up trying to replace you.

Only time will tell.
You have mis-read my posts if you think that is my hope. Quite the opposite actually. I think - if we end up back together - it will be because she chooses me, not because she settles for me. If she finds a "potential suitor" that she feels is better than I am, so be it. Happy trails. The improvements I am making to my life aren't to win her back, but to be a better version of me than I was. If she doesn't want to come along on that journey, then I'll continue on and maybe someone else will later. But I am confident she won't find a better man, whether she realizes it now or later remains to be seen.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
There is more than one way to earn respect and show you have balls.


SD, so what are the other ways? What do they look like? For me there are two criteria for commanding respect:

- You act in ways that are worthy of respect
- You do things from a position of strength

You can earn respect by admitting to past mistakes and showing a willingness to make improvements. You can make an effort to be true to yourself and find that self-respect and confidence that you lost somewhere along the way. You can show that you're willing to show up.
Originally Posted by SteveLW

If LH's characterization is correct and you want her to fail in finding someone else due to her circumstances so she'll come back to you....I am not sure that is living up to either of those criteria.
His characterization is incorrect. I hadn't even considered she was somehow undesirable due to her circumstances. She's a smart and attractive woman so I doubt she will have a hard time finding potential suitors. I'm just betting on her realizing she already has what she is looking for. Maybe that's nuts. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far the other direction and I am now over-confident. Time will tell. And it isn't like I'm sitting around pleading with her, begging her, telling her I can't live without her, or doing all that stuff. I'm not perfect, but my focus is on me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/24/21 09:06 PM
So I think you use a lot of good phrases and statements you pick up a long the way but right now you are fooling yourself. You are not being true to yourself because you are not ok with your Ws behavior. You can not nice her back. It just doesn't work that way.

Only time will tell so keep up with the positive changes.
Posted By: may22 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 03:03 AM
Well, I have a bit of a different take on this one and am fairly sure LH is going to disagree with me or say I'm still fooling myself too or whatever. Sorry, LH. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one. smile

First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.) What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.

I agree with this:
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You can earn respect by admitting to past mistakes and showing a willingness to make improvements. You can make an effort to be true to yourself and find that self-respect and confidence that you lost somewhere along the way. You can show that you're willing to show up.

Whether that's practiced with your kids, your W, your parents, your colleagues, your friends, or just really focusing on understanding your own values and aligning your actions with them-- to me, that is key. It doesn't mean you are trying to nice her back. It just means you are willing to listen, to change, and have a growth mindset. For YOU, not for her.

Here's my take. In my sitch I continually put myself five, ten years in the future and really spent time thinking about how I would look at myself and my actions and decisions today as my future self. It was very very important to me that I not have any regrets. And each person has their own individual line of what they can or cannot handle, what they will or will not regret. LH says you will regret leaving her the safety net. Maybe. It sounds like in your situation, that is how LH would feel. But you know yourself the best. What regrets do you want to avoid at all costs? What will be okay? What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values? Only you know yourself. I would challenge you to really think through all of this carefully and with radical honesty. You may very well find that you agree with LH and ending your current limbo is the right move. You may not. I just think the process is important and shouldn't be skipped over, and it will not look the same for every person.

The other thing I think is important is this-- if you are thoughtful and truly honest with yourself about what you're feeling and seeing, and really can look at your W and her behaviors without the rose-colored glasses-- I believe you *will* know when you're ready to move on. The vets say you have the gift of time... use it. Continue focusing on yourself and cultivating self-compassion and self-respect. Focus on your children and being the best dad you can be. Let go of that which you cannot control-- your W's thoughts and behaviors and whether or not she can figure her own cr@p out. Work on getting to a place where you are no longer tied to her emotions and actions. As you walk the path, you will find there are things you are doing today that no longer serve you, which could range from sleeping with your W to staying married to her. Or, maybe you are okay continuing as is for awhile. The point is it is your path to walk and you need to get there authentically.

Honestly, I think you're doing really well. Hang in there.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Well, I have a bit of a different take on this one and am fairly sure LH is going to disagree with me or say I'm still fooling myself too or whatever. Sorry, LH. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.

That's ok May. SD should get other perspectives.

Originally Posted by may22
First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.)

Well May do you know what I think is gross? Women who are married and having sex with their husbands and are on dating websites. Men having affairs with two young children. I would also like to add that finding your balls and commanding respect are what just about everyone one of Sandi's posts are about so it's just not a guy thing. Yeah I use the term from time to time but I am more about walking away from things that do no work for you.

Originally Posted by may22
What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.

He is making progress and I have commended him on it. I never told him to tell his W to GTFO so I am not sure if you are referencing another poster? What I was suggesting he do is tell her that this is NOT working for HIM. He is no longer going to the affair pad. He is going to stay in the house full time with the kids and she is welcome to stay too or she can go to the affair pad full time.
I agree with this:
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You can earn respect by admitting to past mistakes and showing a willingness to make improvements. You can make an effort to be true to yourself and find that self-respect and confidence that you lost somewhere along the way. You can show that you're willing to show up.

I am not disagreeing with the statement. What I am saying is he is not being true to himself. He doesn't want to go to the love pad and be in this open marriage. He is doing it out of fear and then is NEVER a good position to be in.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Here's my take. In my sitch I continually put myself five, ten years in the future and really spent time thinking about how I would look at myself and my actions and decisions today as my future self. It was very very important to me that I not have any regrets. And each person has their own individual line of what they can or cannot handle, what they will or will not regret. LH says you will regret leaving her the safety net. Maybe. It sounds like in your situation, that is how LH would feel. But you know yourself the best. What regrets do you want to avoid at all costs? What will be okay? What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values? Only you know yourself. I would challenge you to really think through all of this carefully and with radical honesty. You may very well find that you agree with LH and ending your current limbo is the right move. You may not. I just think the process is important and shouldn't be skipped over, and it will not look the same for every person.

So May do you think it's possible that if he took my suggestion that down the road he may say to himself "I wish I would have given her more time to date other men while we were married"? Is that a rational regret? Or maybe a statement based on the fact that he didn't save his marriage.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Work on getting to a place where you are no longer tied to her emotions and actions.

So May what are your thoughts on how he can get there under these conditions?

So I am also curious how this ends. She decides one day ok I'm done. I have sewn my oats. As we were. Until what the next time SD isn't his best self then what it starts up again? As you know May there is a LONG road ahead if this dating nonsense ever ends.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by may22


First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.) What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.


May I am not a huge fan of the "finding your b@lls" terminology either, though I think sometimes it does illustrate to a LBH that they are being weak and need to toughen up. However, may, the idea that for women attraction follows respect is a well-known psychological aspect of male-female relationships. sandi is a huge proponent of the LBH dealing with a WW commanding respect. And that includes making sure to use tough love, not treat your WW with kid-gloves.

So I think you have to look at each situation individually and adjust accordingly. In your sitch self-respect may have been the problem, but in SD's a lack of respect from a WW might have been the key. And in society that now tries to deny the biological differences between men and women, it can cause confusion when LBHs, like myself and SD, come here with our self-confidence completely shot by WWs that lost any shred of respect for us 2+ years ago.

I also do not think being strong with the WW (as sandi advocates) is antithetical to self-respect and self-compassion. You could argue that you cannot command respect from others (through boundaries and other means) without self-respect and self-compassion. But the fact that the majority of heterosexual women cannot be attracted to a man that they do not respect is a pretty well-known fact.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 04:47 PM
Yeah it's not weak to let things play out and see where the chips may fall. SD isn't in emotional crisis. He isn't losing his mind and just trying to survive. If he wants to risk his heart in the hopes that this might work out the way he wants it to so be it. They are separated. W is living her life. SD is living his. He loves his W. His W has no idea what she wants. The black and white concept of respect around here is what's gross. Not so much the machismo. Although being a Mexican American women who's under 40 I have A LOT of thoughts on that that a lot of guy vets around here wouldn't like very much. Also I was a WW in my first MR. And I am neither devoutly Christian nor am I proponent of gender roles. Unfortuately most women aren't. So as much as Sandi's rules are really good blanket rules. And as much as her advice is pretty decent blanket advice for LBHs it, and this is with as much respect as I can muster because she deserves it for all her time and attention put here, her advice isn't the be all end all. Straight women aren't a monolith. And the fantasy that is spread around here that being an alpha will gain you the respect and desire of women is just that a fantasy. A self possessed man isn't an alpha male. And no amount of alpha male posturing will save a marriage. It is simply a bandaid for men who've lost self confidence. It's the ego equivalent of steroids. - One last thought on that Men are from Mars Women are from Venus is 30 years old and has been and always will be refuted as gender roles and the thinking associated with them are sociological not psychological or anywhere near biological.

Respect is earned, not demanded. Respect isn't objective. It's subjective and I genuinely hate how people attack each other with "do you not respect yourself at all?" We as LBS aren't a monolith either. Some newbies are TERRIBLE at the concept of self preservation and willingly walk into the lion's den because maybe the lion won't attack this time. Other's are very good at self preservation and swim through DBing. And there are other's still who while they want to save themselves, their heart, detached or not is still very much tied to their spouse. So they are willing to take some ill advised chances. Are their choices always smart or at the very least are the odds in their favor? Nope. Not even close. But there has to be a better way than "find your b@lls" or "demand respect." And there is. How about "and how did that work out for you?" or "Ok I see what you're saying, but can I ask you something. How is this serving you? What are you gaining from this? I see what WW is getting. But I can't see what you get here other than hurt." Yes 2x4s are needed around here. And most definitely for some more than others, but everything doesn't need to be a 2x4 all the time. I seriously struggled staying here because when looking at how this board was even 5 years ago the tone was sooooo different.

That being said SD. I think you have your wits about you, although I do believe your love blinds you more often than not. Also just a reminder this journey is your own. Take what works leave what doesn't that's in your welcome post. Don't ever forget that. Next I haven't read through your whole sitch yet. But I can see that you are still very much in love with your W. That as removed from her chaos as you may think you are, you are not removed from her. I commend that you want to try and be open to her, and possibilities. I commend your desire to be a light house. I just hope you are being a light house and carefully watching your own shores. WSs will drag you along and keep you at arms length as long as they are allowed to. You are going to have to ask yourself at some point here how long arms length is good enough. How long will arms length serve you? SteveLW put a date on his. I put a date on mine. It's an arbitrary date. It can be moved forward or backwards as you see fit, but at the very least it's a date set to reassess. Steve set his as a year. I set mine as a year. H had a year to figure out what he wanted by then or I was going to figure it out for him. You deserve a life where you aren't perpetually waiting on a person who isn't sure about you. You deserve to find the happiness she's looking for out there. And while I know right now it feels like that happiness would be with her in your old life, you have to realize that MR is dead and gone and never to return. If, and that's a big if, if you and W reconcile and move forward you have to accept that that marriage is a whole new marriage. There is no going back only going forward. Have you sat down and really thought about what your needs are should that opportunity arise. Also I did see a while back someone asked you what you're goals were for yourself? Have you come up with some concrete ones yet? Have you taken the time to look at your life looking forward both with and without W in it? Finances? Custody? Placement? Also I recommend re-reading what Another Stander posted to you a while ago. You can't nice them back, and you can't mean them back either. You need to take a good look around your life and start making plans, even if you don't ever use them. You need to know what both roads look like for you. Because your W has been looking at both for some time now.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 05:09 PM
Wayfarer, I hope you understand that I agree with much of what you said. I've never been a "demand respect" guy, I am more of a "command respect" guy. The person that has to verbally "demand" respect probably isn't worthy of respect. A person that conducts themselves in ways that engender respect do not have to demand respect.

However, male and female attraction is very different. Men can look past most personality and psychological issues a woman may have as long as he finds her looks attractive. Women tend to be much deeper than men when it comes to deep attraction and connection. It is less about gender roles and more about the biological impulses that control us.

One other question. I came to the board in Feb 2018, about 2 months into my sitch. And I immediately got tattoo'd with 2x4s by the vets here. And rightfully so! I keep seeing people refer to the "tone" of the board, but this change in tone certainly must of predated my arrival because I got flat beat up for my first few weeks here.

SD, that last paragraph from Wayfarer is gold. Please read it carefully. And as she suggests go back and reread AS's post. And remember, you do not get to control what she decides, but you do get to control how you react to her decision. Find that place where you are living your best life, a life only a fool wouldn't want to be a part of it, and let the chips fall where they may.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 06:25 PM
May22 - thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response.
Originally Posted by may22
First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.) What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.

I agree with you and you did a better job explaining it than I did. And it isn't that I disagree with some of the sentiment of boundaries or being strong enough to stand up for what you need/want. That is 100% something I need to do and am working on doing. I'm just also finding out a lot about myself as I go through this process and am growing as a result. As I mentioned to LH before, had I followed his advice back in the beginning and it worked, yes we might be together right now but it wouldn't last because I'd still be the person who thought he was the victim and we'd go back to our old ways. I wouldn't have hit bottom and seen things clearly. I wouldn't have gone from doing things in hopes of getting her back to doing things to become a better person. Did she have a role in the problems of our marriage? Absolutely. Did I have my head up my ass thinking all those problems were her fault and I was the one busting his ass all the time? Yup. She begged me for connection and support and I couldn't do it. I was so closed off emotionally, nobody could get in. What would've taken "balls" at that time would have been to open up, risk getting hurt, and to stop thinking I was being tough and by doing everything and soldiering on day after day. Had I not gone through all of this, I wouldn't have ever realized that. It's like an addict hitting bottom and all the lies and bullsh!t go away and you suddenly see things clearly.
Originally Posted by may22
I agree with this:
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You can earn respect by admitting to past mistakes and showing a willingness to make improvements. You can make an effort to be true to yourself and find that self-respect and confidence that you lost somewhere along the way. You can show that you're willing to show up.

Whether that's practiced with your kids, your W, your parents, your colleagues, your friends, or just really focusing on understanding your own values and aligning your actions with them-- to me, that is key. It doesn't mean you are trying to nice her back. It just means you are willing to listen, to change, and have a growth mindset. For YOU, not for her.
Exactly. In the first few months after BD, it was all about her and "look at me and all the changes I'm making" and then I pulled back, almost out of spite, and somewhere along the way some of the stuff I was reading started breaking through. It probably started with The Four Agreements, followed with a lot of Stoic stuff, and really was blown apart with Untethered Soul. Just the idea of getting out of your head, your thoughts aren't you, be present, stop assuming, and you can only control yourself. Things still hurt, but how I deal with that hurt is fundamentally different than how I used to.
Originally Posted by may22
What regrets do you want to avoid at all costs?
I want to avoid her pulling the plug saying "I told you exactly what I needed and you wouldn't do it." because I chose to ignore what she said she needed and instead did the opposite.
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What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?
And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.
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I believe you *will* know when you're ready to move on.
I believe that as well.
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Work on getting to a place where you are no longer tied to her emotions and actions.

This has been my focus over the past month or so. While our time together has increased, I have also worked hard to make sure our time apart is about me and/or me and the kids. In the past, all I could think about 24/7 was her, us, and our situation. It was exhausting. Now I still think about all that, but it is more in waves than constant. It is almost as if I will think "wow, haven't really thought about us for a bit" which unfortunately tends to dovetail into thinking about us, but at least there is now that space.
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Honestly, I think you're doing really well. Hang in there.
Thank you!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
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What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?
And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.

So SD I guess I don't understand. This is not something you can control now but can in the future? Can you elaborate?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
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What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?
And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.

So SD I guess I don't understand. This is not something you can control now but can in the future? Can you elaborate?


I can't "control" it now or in the future, but I do know there will come a time where I won't be able to tolerate it anymore and at that time I can make the choice to tap out and say I'm done.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:06 PM
Got it thank you! Do you have a timeframe in mind? I would not wait until Covid is over because the dating sites are going to be jumping. The summer of love all over again.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:13 PM
Steve I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are one of very few men who give self possessed man advice that explains the nuances between being a d!ck and being self possessed. The line between self respect and trying to mean them back as Another Stander put it. But there is a huge gap in practice vs theory here that I see male vets dumping on to LBH newbies with the anticipation that they can just find that sweet spot with out swinging wildly. Even though you can see they are clearly not in control of their emotions much less their countenance around their wives. Which is why I say it a bandaid. Most LBH's since I've been here take a long time to figure out the path that lies between door mat and a-hole. And as a former WW in my first MR and as a LBW in my second MR now in piecing, demanding or commanding respect from me or women like me will get you no where fast. My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff.

As far as allowing disrespect any one who is here is being disrespected. This concept of commanding or demanding respect is silly. Nothing you say or do will make a WAS/WS respect you more or less. WAS/WSs already have their minds made up. Drawing lines in the sand won't effect much either way. The only thing any of us has control over, man or woman, is building up all that the WAS/WS has torn down. This book called Difficult Conversations talks about one of the biggest things people have to overcome in conflict is having their identity and beliefs pulled out from under them because everything they believed to be true is now wrong. When we're BD'd our issue isn't that we've let the WAS/WSs walk all over us. Its that everything we thought to be true about ourselves and our lives isn't. That creates an identity crisis and crushes our sense of self, purpose, life, and because of that absolutely destroys every bit of confidence we've had. The kind of self possessed man you are talking about isn't one who commands respect by sheer will. It's man who's rebuilt himself who will survive this with or without his W. The place that converges with DB is we all need to find that person. That survivor within us. An alpha isn't what's attractive. A person who is no longer a victim to circumstance is.

As to the tone, if you dig into the archives or some of the like Wise DBers stuff about 5-6 years ago or even further back you can see 2x4s weren't as they are now. It was honest, and clear without the brutality that seems to be the go to with a lot of advice givers on here now. It was a lot more of "bro, she's dangling the carrot not you. I know you think it's working it's not." VS "MAN UP, SHOW HER SHE CAN'T ACT LIKE THAT." Also the concept of "nice-ing back" was related to actually like going out of their way to try to nice the WAS/WS back vs. just being a pleasant human person and approaching the mother/father of their children with the type of kindness and respect we hope are children are approaching strangers with when we aren't looking. Now I'm well aware there are some newbies around here that need it beat over their heads, but I've also seen plenty just behaving like a normal not bitter, angry people looked as being a doormat or trying to nice the stbxs or WAS back. There was a lot more of the kill them with kindness attitude back in the day. If you go to MLC there's still a lot of that attitude there. But those are long haulers who were/are most definitely dealing with actual MLCers. Which isn't something I personally could've done. I don't have it in me to have been able to live in limbo for years. I've read a lot of the MLC board as I've been going through this process because it's an encouraging place to be. It's just a slower, calmer place there. More virtual hugs and less brow beating. That's what the boards seemed to look more like a long time ago.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff.

Spit my coffee for the second time today.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog

I can't "control" it now or in the future, but I do know there will come a time where I won't be able to tolerate it anymore and at that time I can make the choice to tap out and say I'm done.


Like LH I'm curious about the timeframe on this. Not necessarily the liner timeframe that LH is looking for. Although you should be keeping that in mind. But what are your markers that you're done? H was having an open affair while still living in the house. He had a move out date set. At first I dreaded the move out date. But as it got closer, I was ready for him to go. I didn't want to live like that any more. I was just exhausted. I was exhausted by his indecision. I was exhausted by trying to have that positive attitude around him even though I wanted to throttle him. I was tired from GALing. I'm an introvert and I just wanted to be home and read my books and drink wine and be left alone. So SD what's tired of it going to look like for you?
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
[
Spit my coffee for the second time today.


What can I say? I'm full of love and light, but I can't help but be a little jaded. My grandpa is the only truly great man I've ever known.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:37 PM
Thank you for the clarification Wayfarer. I notice you joined in Jan 2020, I assume you were just a lurker before then? Or maybe you started a new account?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
What can I say? I'm full of love and light, but I can't help but be a little jaded. My grandpa is the only truly great man I've ever known.

I get it Wayfarer. I don't have many pleasant thoughts about middle age women either lol.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Thank you for the clarification Wayfarer. I notice you joined in Jan 2020, I assume you were just a lurker before then? Or maybe you started a new account?


Lurker. But only for about a month or so. My stich moved fast and furious due to my H being who he is. I basically had to hold on for the ride and not lose my mind. Focus on me and the kids. Things just happened to work out in my favor. But when I got here I was desperate for anything that made me feel better. And really diving deep in here gave me something to hold on to.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

I get it Wayfarer. I don't have many pleasant thoughts about middle age women either lol.


Good thing I'm not middle aged just yet then, lol
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Thank you for the clarification Wayfarer. I notice you joined in Jan 2020, I assume you were just a lurker before then? Or maybe you started a new account?


Lurker. But only for about a month or so. My stich moved fast and furious due to my H being who he is. I basically had to hold on for the ride and not lose my mind. Focus on me and the kids. Things just happened to work out in my favor. But when I got here I was desperate for anything that made me feel better. And really diving deep in here gave me something to hold on to.


Yep, I remember reading your sitch. Glad everything is going well for you! SD, if you get nothing else out of all this please get that you will be okay no matter what. And we are here to help and support.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
SD isn't in emotional crisis. He isn't losing his mind and just trying to survive.

At least not today.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
That being said SD. I think you have your wits about you, although I do believe your love blinds you more often than not.
That's probably true. I try to stay grounded but I also look at things from a more detached perspective at times and can see where I had my blinders on.

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But I can see that you are still very much in love with your W. That as removed from her chaos as you may think you are, you are not removed from her.
At one point during this I wasn't sure that I loved her, wasn't sure it was worth fighting for, thought it might be easier to move on and do whatever I want. I was so stuck in my head, weighing pros and cons, ruminating, planning, etc. that it was impossible to know anything. Then I had a moment of clarity. And then another. And I then knew without a doubt that I love her. But you are right, I am not removed from her. Not even close. I am more removed than I was, but there's a long way to go.
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I just hope you are being a light house and carefully watching your own shores. WSs will drag you along and keep you at arms length as long as they are allowed to. You are going to have to ask yourself at some point here how long arms length is good enough. How long will arms length serve you? SteveLW put a date on his. I put a date on mine. It's an arbitrary date. It can be moved forward or backwards as you see fit, but at the very least it's a date set to reassess. Steve set his as a year. I set mine as a year. H had a year to figure out what he wanted by then or I was going to figure it out for him. You deserve a life where you aren't perpetually waiting on a person who isn't sure about you.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Interesting you both went with a year. I don't know that I can go another 7 months. But then again, if you asked me 5 months ago if I could go until now, I probably would've said no. The timing I've been toying with is May, that is when the studio lease it up which makes it natural milepost for deciding which way we're gonna go.
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And while I know right now it feels like that happiness would be with her in your old life, you have to realize that MR is dead and gone and never to return. If, and that's a big if, if you and W reconcile and move forward you have to accept that that marriage is a whole new marriage.
I want a whole new marriage and do not want the old one. I want a better one. I think we have the potential to make that happen, but we also have the potential to blow it all up in a big way.

Quote
Also I did see a while back someone asked you what you're goals were for yourself? Have you come up with some concrete ones yet? Have you taken the time to look at your life looking forward both with and without W in it? Finances? Custody? Placement?
I have a lot of personal goals I'm working on. Some are coming better than others. For the future I have looked into housing, splitting out finances, lawyers, etc. I don't have a set plan, just vague ideas.
Posted By: may22 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 09:25 PM
Hey, a hot thread!! wink

I wasn't trying to attack LH, Steve, Sandi, or anyone with my comment about me finding the alpha male/getting your b@lls out of your W's purse stuff gross. I would caution LBHs from embracing that path fully, though, as I don't know that it will help either save their M or get any future woman to date them, depending on their circumstances. As Sandi and I worked out at one point, we live in very different places and have very different circles of friends and acquaintances, as she doesn't know anyone who lived together before getting married and I don't know anyone who DIDN'T. So yes, I believe that women exist who would respond well to that approach. I simply don't know any of them. Also, it's offensive. I'm just mentioning it in case you guys care. I stopped reading LBH threads for a good long time because I just found all the alpha-male-rah-rah talk so offputting, and I can again. Or maybe can all agree to start saying "grow a pair of ovaries" for awhile instead and see how that goes. (Does that sound ridiculous to you?) wink

And LH, I wasn't referring to your advice specifically in/re GTFO. I just feel that there is a very cookie-cutter approach here quite frequently, particularly for LBHs, that equates to man up/take your b@lls back/NMMNG/kick her out unless she immediately ends her A/gets off dating sites/whatever, which of course is completely outside of the LBH's control, so effectively is kick her out. Blu touched on this in her post the other day on how things have changed on this board. I don't have experience pre 2019 here, but like WF I find the MLC board much kinder and open to helping the LBS find their own path through their mess rather than this board, right now. I've considered moving my thread over there for that specific reason even though it doesn't really make sense for my sitch right now.

I remember very clearly a year ago WF, new to the board and describing her sitch and getting beat up here with posters telling her to kick her H out, and her saying that if PA=D in every situation, there wouldn't be many LBWs who reconciled with their Hs here; that the automatic "kick him out" response is really not that different from the begging/pleading on the other end of the spectrum. Both are knee-jerk responses and these are situations, especially when children are involved, that deserve thoughtful, non-emotional consideration before choosing a path. It takes time to process what is happening and separate your fears and emotions from an honest evaluation of your situation, and to choose actions based on your values and beliefs rather than your feelings.

I get it. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to kick my cheating H to the curb. I told him a bunch of times to GTFO. But that happened when I was angry and letting my pride get in the way of my ultimate goal, which was to give my children a happy, stable two parent household; and in the absence of that, to be able to look back five years from know and know in my heart that I gave this M everything I could. I can't afford to have regrets about something that would be so impactful on my kids. It would break me. But that is just ME! I guess the point I am trying to make was that everyone's situation is different. Every person has their own boundaries and they may be different than yours. Developing and cultivating self-respect and self-compassion, then learning about your own boundaries by understanding your own emotional responses to various situations and learning how to enforce them-- this is all part of the process. It takes time. And is a very personal journey. I think we do newbies a disservice by TELLING them what to do, or what we would do in their situation. Give them the tools to detach emotionally (back to the basics of GAL, self-care, avoiding R talks) so that they can begin to figure out for themselves what is the best path for them.

And FWIW... this is what MWD says too. She advocates for staying in the house if you can handle it, even in an active affair. She says people might call you a doormat but you know better. You're fighting for your M in the smartest way you know how. It clearly isn't a path everyone can take, but it is also not completely crazy to contemplate it.

Self-respect has never been a problem for me, BTW, though I know a whole bunch of posters thought that here because I didn't file for D the second I learned about the PA. The reason I suggested he work on his own self-respect is that SD himself said it was a problem for him.

I think that the emotional detachment comes with time and practice, removing the focus from your WS and placing it squarely on you and your children. Do the work on yourself. If you can do it and want to do it while still living with your WS, go for it. That is SD's choice and I support it as long as it seems like he's able to do the work and continue his work on detachment throughout... and from what i read, I think he is able to do that. I do think there is value internally in setting a date for at the very least reevaluation of the situation (but I don't agree with an arbitrary date based on the end of COVID because dating sites will be jumping after that? That is weird and confusing.).

SD, thanks for the responses to my questions. I think you are doing really well. Don't try to skip over any of the steps-- this is one of those situations that you just have to go THROUGH it. Don't feel pressured to move faster than is right for you. Take what serves you from this board and don't get bogged down by advice that doesn't fit your situation. But also listen, even if you don't agree, and commit to continue reevaluating your situation and boundaries with a clear eye and be ready to make changes when the time is right. I think if you continue on this path, regardless of what happens with your M, you're going to grow immensely through the trauma and will be grateful for the gifts it gave to you.

Have you read any Esther Perel? I think you might enjoy her books. Also, you might like to read DnJ's thread over on the MLC board. He has some incredible posts about validation and boundaries and detachment. He is very wise and I think what he writes might resonate with you.

Hang in there.

xx M
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by may22
And LH, I wasn't referring to your advice specifically in/re GTFO. I just feel that there is a very cookie-cutter approach here quite frequently, particularly for LBHs, that equates to man up/take your b@lls back/NMMNG/kick her out unless she immediately ends her A/gets off dating sites/whatever, which of course is completely outside of the LBH's control, so effectively is kick her out.

So May I would like to see some support on these claims. Take some time over the weekend.

Originally Posted by may22
Blu touched on this in her post the other day on how things have changed on this board. I don't have experience pre 2019 here, but like WF I find the MLC board much kinder and open to helping the LBS find their own path through their mess rather than this board, right now.

So I am going to disagree with you here too. When I started here 6 years ago there were at least 3 posters Doodler, Jeep and Texhubby whose every post was kick that lying cheating WW out of the house and move on. Early on I was like WTF? This is suppose to be a marriage saving board. Well now that I have lived through it I understand what they were saying. Most WWs aren't worth it. They are not good people. It's the reality of it. Now having said that I am not saying I have never suggest drastic measures (new Steve and Curtis come to mind). But that is not my opening line nor do I see that from many posters.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
So I think you have to look at each situation individually and adjust accordingly. In your sitch self-respect may have been the problem, but in SD's a lack of respect from a WW might have been the key.

It was definitely a big part of it all, because you can't respect someone who doesn't respect themselves. If you asked me a year ago if I respected myself, I likely would've said "sure, of course, duh!" but looking back now I can see the truth of how I really was. Does that excuse my W? Nope, like 97Hope said - "get a dog."
Originally Posted by SteveLW
And in society that now tries to deny the biological differences between men and women, it can cause confusion when LBHs, like myself and SD, come here with our self-confidence completely shot by WWs that lost any shred of respect for us 2+ years ago.
I think the biological stuff is separate from the "masculine" vs. "feminine" needs we all have though. I think a lot of men in our situations focus heavily on the more macho aspects of being masculine and swing from being a doormat to something out of Jersey Shore to compensate for our self-confidence being completely shot. Even if things don't work out for my M, I don't have any desire to be a "player" looking for hookups and all that and if things don't work out I know it won't destroy my confidence the way it would've 3-4 months ago.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
But the fact that the majority of heterosexual women cannot be attracted to a man that they do not respect is a pretty well-known fact.
Totally agree, however the variable in that equation is different women respect different things. My W is a strong-willed, stubborn, Finnish/Irish woman with a doctorate. Me standing up and saying "listen here little lady...." won't fly. (Not that that is what people are suggesting I do). Her seeing me do 180s, being present, being more confident in myself, getting in shape, and all the GAL stuff though, is a different story. It is tough to quantify, but the energy I give off today is so much different than what it was a year ago. I laugh SO much more. I remember at one point last year where we were doing something and we both started laughing - full on belly laughs - and after I thought to myself how GOOD that felt because I hadn't done it in so long.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 10:44 PM
Also May the website jumping statement was a joke. Sorry but I don’t know any other way to respond to a married woman on dating websites.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by may22
As Sandi and I worked out at one point, we live in very different places and have very different circles of friends and acquaintances, as she doesn't know anyone who lived together before getting married and I don't know anyone who DIDN'T. So yes, I believe that women exist who would respond well to that approach. I simply don't know any of them.

I'm with you - I don't know anyone who didn't live together before getting married. Also, not being religious myself, I do see some of that undercurrent show up at times in threads and am a little put off by it. There's nothing wrong with it, just isn't for me.
Originally Posted by may22
SD, thanks for the responses to my questions. I think you are doing really well. Don't try to skip over any of the steps-- this is one of those situations that you just have to go THROUGH it. Don't feel pressured to move faster than is right for you. Take what serves you from this board and don't get bogged down by advice that doesn't fit your situation. But also listen, even if you don't agree, and commit to continue reevaluating your situation and boundaries with a clear eye and be ready to make changes when the time is right. I think if you continue on this path, regardless of what happens with your M, you're going to grow immensely through the trauma and will be grateful for the gifts it gave to you.
Thank you and I agree 100%. This board is amazing and I don't know that I'd be where I am now without it. I've learned a lot and use a lot of what I've learned daily. I know I drive LH batty, but I like his input and his point of view and there have been things he has been spot on in predicting. I also may be being naïve in thinking some of his other predictions won't also come true, there are just some things about my situation that I think are different. But then again, so does everyone else.
Originally Posted by may22
Have you read any Esther Perel? I think you might enjoy her books. Also, you might like to read DnJ's thread over on the MLC board. He has some incredible posts about validation and boundaries and detachment. He is very wise and I think what he writes might resonate with you.
I have not read Esther Perel, will take a look now along with those threads. Thank you!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/25/21 11:34 PM
SD,

I have always thought yours was different that your w only had one foot out the door when most have two.

I’ll give you another prediction. You’ll know in May. If she wants to reup the lease I would get a lawyer and settle into the family home because she has no intention on coming home.

You know why I get batty because I’m pretty sure if I would have used tough love in my situation I could have saved my marriage. Luckily for me with hindsight and the rose colored glasses coming off I’ve never been happier. It took a long time but I clearly see my exw was not worth fighting for after all.

So all I can do is pass along what I’ve learned and some people like my advice and some don’t. That I certainly can’t control.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/26/21 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by SteveLW
So I think you have to look at each situation individually and adjust accordingly. In your sitch self-respect may have been the problem, but in SD's a lack of respect from a WW might have been the key.

It was definitely a big part of it all, because you can't respect someone who doesn't respect themselves. If you asked me a year ago if I respected myself, I likely would've said "sure, of course, duh!" but looking back now I can see the truth of how I really was. Does that excuse my W? Nope, like 97Hope said - "get a dog."
Originally Posted by SteveLW
And in society that now tries to deny the biological differences between men and women, it can cause confusion when LBHs, like myself and SD, come here with our self-confidence completely shot by WWs that lost any shred of respect for us 2+ years ago.
I think the biological stuff is separate from the "masculine" vs. "feminine" needs we all have though. I think a lot of men in our situations focus heavily on the more macho aspects of being masculine and swing from being a doormat to something out of Jersey Shore to compensate for our self-confidence being completely shot. Even if things don't work out for my M, I don't have any desire to be a "player" looking for hookups and all that and if things don't work out I know it won't destroy my confidence the way it would've 3-4 months ago.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
But the fact that the majority of heterosexual women cannot be attracted to a man that they do not respect is a pretty well-known fact.
Totally agree, however the variable in that equation is different women respect different things. My W is a strong-willed, stubborn, Finnish/Irish woman with a doctorate. Me standing up and saying "listen here little lady...." won't fly. (Not that that is what people are suggesting I do). Her seeing me do 180s, being present, being more confident in myself, getting in shape, and all the GAL stuff though, is a different story. It is tough to quantify, but the energy I give off today is so much different than what it was a year ago. I laugh SO much more. I remember at one point last year where we were doing something and we both started laughing - full on belly laughs - and after I thought to myself how GOOD that felt because I hadn't done it in so long.


Standing up for yourself and having boundaries doesn't mean being a Jersey Shore jerk or over macho caveman or a player. I like how Wayfarer put it, it is more nuanced than that. The sweet spot between doormat and caveman. It is a balancing act for sure.

What you describe in that last paragraph was EXACTLY my approach. If you read my threads I even had a moment where we were laughing at something silly and she actually turned to me and asked me "who are you?" So yes, more of that. And as I eluded to in my response to may or wayfarer, you can do both! You can stand up for yourself when necessary and still be present, confident, getting in shape, and GAL, and laughing and having fun when appropriate!

So SD, you are making progress, just keep it up. Remember probably the #1 rule in DBing: Do what works.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 02/26/21 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
I have always thought yours was different that your w only had one foot out the door when most have two.
You may be right about that. I guess I still feel like she only has one out, and in some ways isn't as far out of the door as she was. The EA is over and she was the one to end it. When she had one foot out, the EA was going strong. She's told me she went from "hoping to have hope" back in the beginning to actually having hope. Little steps and no guarantees, but better than the alternative.

Originally Posted by LH19
I’ll give you another prediction. You’ll know in May. If she wants to reup the lease I would get a lawyer and settle into the family home because she has no intention on coming home.

On that we both agree.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/05/21 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
It took a long time but I clearly see my exw was not worth fighting for after all.

You were right. I don't regret doing things the way that I did, and you may also have been right about me being able to turn things around back months ago, but now I'm glad I didn't because it was all lies. From the beginning. The EA was a PA before the BD even happened. She lied about that. She did break it off with him, but now they're back. She is taking a trip back down there and is supposed to be meeting him for a week of fun. She left her chat with him open on her computer for anyone to see. All kinds of good stuff in there. So that's that. I found a local family law attorney with good reviews and Monday I'll set up an appointment. Time to move on. Thank you everyone for your help, I definitely did grow a lot and I'll make it through this.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 12:25 AM
Hey Salt

So sorry you had to find out all that, and with all those details too, I understand how hurtful that must have been.

It’s great that you’ve recognised your growth, but please don’t stop growing just because you’ve made the decision to move on. It’s a lifelong journey my friend, keep at it. The people here will be still here whatever happens.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by LH19
It took a long time but I clearly see my exw was not worth fighting for after all.

You were right. I don't regret doing things the way that I did, and you may also have been right about me being able to turn things around back months ago, but now I'm glad I didn't because it was all lies. From the beginning. The EA was a PA before the BD even happened. She lied about that. She did break it off with him, but now they're back. She is taking a trip back down there and is supposed to be meeting him for a week of fun. She left her chat with him open on her computer for anyone to see. All kinds of good stuff in there. So that's that. I found a local family law attorney with good reviews and Monday I'll set up an appointment. Time to move on. Thank you everyone for your help, I definitely did grow a lot and I'll make it through this.

Sorry man that you had to find out that way. Unfortunately these situations are so predictable and the only way to handle them is tough love. 95% of these situations ain’t worth saving and even if you do you have to sleep with one eye open for the rest of your life. Keep learning, keep growing and you will be fine!
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by LH19
It took a long time but I clearly see my exw was not worth fighting for after all.

You were right. I don't regret doing things the way that I did, and you may also have been right about me being able to turn things around back months ago, but now I'm glad I didn't because it was all lies. From the beginning. The EA was a PA before the BD even happened. She lied about that. She did break it off with him, but now they're back. She is taking a trip back down there and is supposed to be meeting him for a week of fun. She left her chat with him open on her computer for anyone to see. All kinds of good stuff in there. So that's that. I found a local family law attorney with good reviews and Monday I'll set up an appointment. Time to move on. Thank you everyone for your help, I definitely did grow a lot and I'll make it through this.

Sorry man that you had to find out that way. Unfortunately these situations are so predictable and the only way to handle them is tough love. 95% of these situations ain’t worth saving and even if you do you have to sleep with one eye open for the rest of your life. Keep learning, keep growing and you will be fine!
Yeah, this sh!t isn't worth saving. It'll just happen again later. She can't think of anything she did that would've pushed me away. LOL! Apparently I woke up one morning and decided to be emotionally unavailable. Just for kicks! She's giving me all the "it's complicated, I know in my heart of hearts he isn't the one for me" B.S. and I'm so done. "You've stalled me leaving, I was going to focus on us after I wrapped up this last class that is taking up my time, I can't trust you because you weren't there for me a year ago" etc. etc. etc. Like I said, I did what she wanted, it wasn't enough, so I'm f'in out.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 10:49 AM
All WW bs. Could you have been a better husband? Absolutely! Normal mature women do not solve marriage problems by joining dating websites. Hunker down in the family home until you can see lawyer and find out your rights. Just be prepared for the manipulation because it’s coming.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
All WW bs. Could you have been a better husband? Absolutely! Normal mature women do not solve marriage problems by joining dating websites. Hunker down in the family home until you can see lawyer and find out your rights. Just be prepared for the manipulation because it’s coming.

Yeah, I already said I won't be coming back to the studio and will be living at home from now on. I did a lot of growth there but it has served its purpose for me. I'll focus even more on the kids and me and keep growing. I spent 4 days down at the coast with my oldest this week which was awesome. She was texting me saying what a great dad I was and all kinds of sappy sh!t. And then spent the evenings online with the OM yucking it up. Oh well, I knew I was going to get hurt, better now than later.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Hey Salt

So sorry you had to find out all that, and with all those details too, I understand how hurtful that must have been.

It’s great that you’ve recognised your growth, but please don’t stop growing just because you’ve made the decision to move on. It’s a lifelong journey my friend, keep at it. The people here will be still here whatever happens.

Thanks OB. I will keep growing and hopefully now I can grow in other ways without this albatross on my back.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
She was texting me saying what a great dad I was and all kinds of sappy sh!t.

You spent 4 days on the coast with your oldest--wonderful--maybe it was genuine validation you are a great father and she's glad she had kids with you? Props, SaltyDog, even if this week otherwise was sour.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 08:14 PM
From her:

Quote
I KNOW he and I aren't going anywhere. I've always known that. I know you are the better man for me. And of all honesty I planned to commit myself to really trying with you once my 3 jobs settled. I am not nor have been stringing you along. And I am not making [censored] up now just for fun. I've known these things all along. I just haven't been ready. I've been so hurt by you for so long and now you are showing up in so many ways. And I am f*cking angry about it. But I also know if I can get over the anger and find my way back that it would be a more fulfilling life than the path we were previously on.


Is this the manipulation?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
She was texting me saying what a great dad I was and all kinds of sappy sh!t.

You spent 4 days on the coast with your oldest--wonderful--maybe it was genuine validation you are a great father and she's glad she had kids with you? Props, SaltyDog, even if this week otherwise was sour.

Thank you. I think it was genuine. I just think she's too broken right now to know up from down.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
From her:

Quote
I KNOW he and I aren't going anywhere. I've always known that. I know you are the better man for me. And of all honesty I planned to commit myself to really trying with you once my 3 jobs settled. I am not nor have been stringing you along. And I am not making [censored] up now just for fun. I've known these things all along. I just haven't been ready. I've been so hurt by you for so long and now you are showing up in so many ways. And I am f*cking angry about it. But I also know if I can get over the anger and find my way back that it would be a more fulfilling life than the path we were previously on.


Is this the manipulation?

Bingo!
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/06/21 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
From her:

Quote
I KNOW he and I aren't going anywhere. I've always known that. I know you are the better man for me. And of all honesty I planned to commit myself to really trying with you once my 3 jobs settled. I am not nor have been stringing you along. And I am not making [censored] up now just for fun. I've known these things all along. I just haven't been ready. I've been so hurt by you for so long and now you are showing up in so many ways. And I am f*cking angry about it. But I also know if I can get over the anger and find my way back that it would be a more fulfilling life than the path we were previously on.


Is this the manipulation?

Salty, yes, her goal seems to be to influence you to wait as a backup option. She's not waiting--she's flying off with OM#1 to have a week of great sex and see where their feelings are.

As long as she believes if she changed her mind you'd take her back, exploring OM is safe. It sounds like she's convinced coming back to you would be more fulfilling than before, but she's not convinced it's more fulfilling than OM#1 or the next OM or she wouldn't be flying to them.

I do believe her anger at you making 180s now and not before when she was into you. To get over the anger and pain, she'd need to commit to getting over the anger and pain. There are therapists, books, etc. for that. It's work but doable if she wants it--it's neither rocket science nor does it just happen.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 12:20 AM
Quote
How you want to move forward is up to you. I can't decide that for you. I am not asking you to wait for me. I am just asking you not to fully close the door. If you do, I will understand as mine has been clsoed and locked for awhile now. But you have been slowly picking the lock.

I don't want to give you false hope. So I am not giving you any hope. We are broken. Really broken. But I see you. I see you changing. And if I get caught up at some point I may be able to show up differently for us. It will then be up to you to decide what you want to do with me


I can't deal with this sh!t anymore...
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 12:52 AM
Those are some rough manipulation attempts, Salty. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

Have you sent her anything in reply?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Those are some rough manipulation attempts, Salty. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

Have you sent her anything in reply?
oh yeah. It's on at this point. But what do I care? I got a ton of bottled up sh!t that needs to come out.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 05:09 AM
Words spoken in anger are easy to regret and hard to take back. Even if you're throwing caution to the wind because you don't want R anymore, D requires negotiation, and since you have kids she'll always be in your life. I would consider fewer words and more actions as DB usually recommends. Good luck!
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Words spoken in anger are easy to regret and hard to take back. Even if you're throwing caution to the wind because you don't want R anymore, D requires negotiation, and since you have kids she'll always be in your life. I would consider fewer words and more actions as DB usually recommends. Good luck!

You're right. And I am not being a complete a-hole, I'm just not holding back or being my usual peace-keeper. She can take it however she wants.
Posted By: job Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4 - 03/07/21 02:52 PM
New Thread:

Another LBH (not kinda) pt. 5
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