https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...amp;Number=2911578&nt=10&page=11Previous Thread Above.
I had a call with my DB coach and based on that call I decided to call my wife and "temperature check". He didn't recommend it per say, but he did encourage a conversation and gave me some pointers on it if I made the call. I thought long and hard about it and decided to do it. I did not follow his script, but built off my own thoughts.
It was interesting. I started off by saying I wanted to gain some clarity on where we were going. I said that the six weeks had given me a lot of time to step back and look at our MR differently. I said that when she moved out she said she wasn't sure whether we were just separating or if we were getting a divorce and I asked her where she was at now.
She said that based on my behavior over the last several weeks that I was confirming her decision (though she didn't articulate what that was, it implied divorce). She asked me where I was at with the divorce decision and I said that I hadn't changed - I still didn't want to get divorced. I said that the separation had given me a lot of perspective and that if we were to try and reconcile our new marriage would be different than our old marriage and that she may not want to be with me.
She also said she thought my parenting was questionable and that she thought I was too focused on the kids being happy, and then she said that it was good that they were happy.
We were then interrupted by a call from the school as my son got hurt. Where we left off was that we agreed we needed to talk more about our marriage.
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As I got off the phone, I was irritated. She thinks my actions are pointing us towards divorce? She went behind my back (and her dads back and her sisters back) and conspired with her mom to by a new house for her to move into without telling me. And then she has worked to go no contact as well, and has repeatedly given me the cold shoulder. Give me a break.
Also, based on her tone there was absolutely zero acknowledgement that she has done anything wrong or contributed to this at all. I was not impressed. She reminded me of her mother, whom I despise.
Several times on the call she asked me why I was bringing this up now. She was digging for something and I bet she thinks I'm starting a new relationship - just a wild guess. She also implied that I was moving on with my life which showed I wanted a divorce.
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Anyhow, the net of it was that I'm not sure now. I'm creating a new life. Its free, low conflict, I'm actually, oddly, more at ease, I worry less.
I do seek companionship, but if its with her again, at what cost. This call with her was actually a very healthy interaction for me. I could more clearly see some of her crazy.
I also got to tell her that at the end of the day, I just wanted her to find the happiness she is looking for and that I wanted to be happy too. And I think it was important for me to say that.
We were then interrupted by a call from the school as my son got hurt.
I hope he is OK.
Where we left off was that we agreed we needed to talk more about our marriage.
I suggest you do not initiate this conversation. Let her. Then validate.
Scotty B
I’m speechless.
Change your mind yet?
How about now?
How about now?
Now?
LH face palm.
I do t understand. She moved out and bought. New house and you are mediating a divorce. Then you start an R talk and you are irritated by her answers?
What were you expecting ?!?
Discussions with the WAS are pointless. Why?
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BELIEVE A WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THEIR MOUTH!!
We've told you that over, and over, and over again. Yet you think another discussion will change things?
Scott, on BD if you could have had her sit down and write out exactly in precise detail how she wanted you to behave from that point on, and you did exactly as she said, she would still say that your behavior is confirming to her that she wants a D!
The point? The point is that THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR SAY TO FIX THIS. If there were MWD would have written a book to tell you exactly what to do and say, and then to live happily ever after. You've resisted that truth all along. You've been sleepwalking through your sitch secretly waiting for her to magically snap out of her fog. The chances of that happening are less than the chance of getting struck by lightning.
One of the reasons we tell LBSs not to start R talks is because they hardly ever say what you hope they'll yll say, and even if they do you can't believe it, and their actions following won't match. And the LBS is left crushed and wishing they'd never started the R discussion to begin with. Which I am guessing is what you are feeling whether you admit it or not.
Scott,
it is OK that you tried to have a temp check. The result is not surprising. I hope you will soon come to the realization that these sort of efforts are futile. YOu CANNOT FIX HER. YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK. NO AMOUNT OF PERSUASION WILL "WAKE HER UP".
And no, your "love" is not strong enough to attract her back. The old saying "If you love her, set her free. If she comes back, she is yours and if she does not, she never was." is deffo true.
I do hpe you come to the realization that now it the time to turn to yourself and start working on yourself. You cannot do that if you keep checking on your W. LEt her be ,let her process what she needs to process. LEt her deal with her issues uninterupted.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I made that call for me. I wasn’t trying to nice her back or get her back, I was trying to make a decision as to whether or not I wanted o be married to her anymore. I called her to let her know that I wasn’t all the way out yet and to see whether or not she was.
Her answers to my questions and her attacks pushed me further away. This was healthy for me. I’m not sure I want to be with this woman, she’s a mess and doesn’t understand or respect me. There are many women out there who would appreciate me beyond words. I’m successful, a ridiculously good dad, I’m fun, loving, romantic, extremely fit.
If she thinks she can tell me that I’m no good, she’s an idiot. I don’t need that in my life. I’m on the brink of enough is enough. She’s not the only one making a decision at this point.
I want to respect the children, the investment of time and money in the MR and ultimately make the right decision. But at this point, she’s being disrespectful and frankly rude.
I’m reading a book on relationship dynamics and realized that over the past four years she gained power by withholding sex and by blackmailing me with the constant threat of divorce for any slight indiscretion I might make. He accusations of me being controlling and manipulative, laughable. That is what she was doing, and I’ve had enough. That phone call let me see more clearly.
Scotty B,
I think your W is being disrespectful and rude because you don’t seem to understand what is going on here. I think you are clearly in denial and she is being that way to get you to back off and understand.
My guess is this is her thinking that you never listen to her and what she is saying.
She can tell you that your no good. That’s her opinion.
You need to do more reading on validation.
I’m in your corner but the last couple days you have had setbacks.
Scott, again, you need to wake up to the fact that she already told you she was all the way out.... Through her actions. It always amazes me when a LBS, after the WAS has moved out, filed for D, has no desire to spend anytime with the LBS, but the LBS has to HEAR "I am done" in words one last time from the WAS. Makes no sense.
This woman has moved out.
She insisted sitting your kids down and telling them what was going on.
She is making you both split time with the kids.
You've been through multiple mediation sessions where in at least one she fired false accusations at you.
Yet you had to have one last conversation with her to prove she was done?!??!
Scott, I stand by what I said. You have been sleepwalking through all this in denial, hoping, expecting some magic would happen and she would, despite all her actions to the contrary, just snap out of it and suddenly want to reverse everything she's been doing and working towards.
You're more likely to get stuck by lightning.
But Scotty, she has let you know she was done. She has made that painfully clear. So here you come asking if she is done, which of course isnt going to get her to react kindly, as she has already told you she is done.
Did you really think there was going to be any other response form her than the one you got.
Well, I hope you got your closure now. I’m sorry, I know it’s painful. But she wants a divorce. If the house and the multiple mediation sessions didn’t say that, I don’t know what else can. And You’ll find when she has said it, and you still don’t get it, she will get mean. It shows you haven’t been paying attention to her or listening to her and that you have been disregarding her feelings and that’s why she says “ this solidifies there has been change”
You aren’t respecting her decisions
It’s not about her, it’s about me. It’s about me feeling stronger, seeing her more clearly, and realizing what has happened here.
Back in 2014 I went through a horrifying time at work and was on the brink of depression. She was not supportive of me and when given the chance would say “I told you not to do that at work” as opposed to “how can I help?” In the heals of that she had an affair, which further destroyed my self worth (making it really hard for me to stand up for myself). Then after the affair, for three years she effectively black mailed me continually with threats of divorce and withholding sex. Control and manipulation were her hallmarks. She then accused me of these things as well as of being a narcissist (which more clearly defines her).
I hadn’t spoken to her in seven weeks about “us.” Hearing the things she said, how she tried to rip me down and control and manipulate me gave me clarity. I don’t want to be with someone like that. She is not the prize.
This may be a setback for reconciliation but this was a huge step forward for Scott. I feel like I’m finally getting it.
I’m free, I can do what I want with my kids, I can hang out with my friends the way I want, I can have friends over, I’m not under constant scrutiny. I’m not going back to that crap. I know i still need to recover and get stronger, especially when it comes to dealing with her, but I’m moving to a space where I can say that what is happening in my life is what i want to happen in my life. I don’t want to be with the woman i was married to. She’ll have to change if she wants me back. And if she doesn’t want to change, I’ll find someone else if I want to and I don’t think I will make these mistakes again.
My DB coach has been implying/asking, when is Scott going to say enough is enough. I think i understand what he was saying. I’ll keep working on it, but I’m feeling empowered.
Wow Scotty now this was a great post!
Why did you have to have one more conversation to get there. She’s had enough and you’ve had enough so hopefully you can D amicably.
I think you’ll find as the dust starts to settle that you were both at fault. LTM are tough especially when you don’t have the proper tools.
I’ve said this before many times “D has its challenges but it’s a thousand times better then being with someone who wants out”.
Hang in there Scotty B.
Hi Scott,
She said that based on my behavior over the last several weeks that I was confirming her decision.. She asked me where I was at with the divorce decision.. She also said she thought my parenting was questionable and that she thought I was too focused on the kids being happy, and then she said that it was good that they were happy.
I see Ginger's point that by asking again after six weeks, you showed your STBXW you hadn't heard her "We're done", punctuated by both words and actions. At the same time, it's obvious you two weren't on the path to reconciliation, so I don't feel this was much of a setback. If this is what you needed for closure, kudos. I don't believe you're the same Scott who began here. I'm skeptical of her as the villain in this D, but I do see you systematically working on new relationship skills. The only negative of this interaction I see is what Ginger mentioned--your STBXW may act meaner in the near future to make her point clearer.
I’ve said this before many times “D has its challenges but it’s a thousand times better then being with someone who wants out”.
^^^
This
It’s not about her, it’s about me. It’s about me feeling stronger, seeing her more clearly, and realizing what has happened here.
Back in 2014 I went through a horrifying time at work and was on the brink of depression. She was not supportive of me and when given the chance would say “I told you not to do that at work” as opposed to “how can I help?” In the heals of that she had an affair, which further destroyed my self worth (making it really hard for me to stand up for myself). Then after the affair, for three years she effectively black mailed me continually with threats of divorce and withholding sex. Control and manipulation were her hallmarks. She then accused me of these things as well as of being a narcissist (which more clearly defines her).
I hadn’t spoken to her in seven weeks about “us.” Hearing the things she said, how she tried to rip me down and control and manipulate me gave me clarity. I don’t want to be with someone like that. She is not the prize.
This may be a setback for reconciliation but this was a huge step forward for Scott. I feel like I’m finally getting it.
I’m free, I can do what I want with my kids, I can hang out with my friends the way I want, I can have friends over, I’m not under constant scrutiny. I’m not going back to that crap. I know i still need to recover and get stronger, especially when it comes to dealing with her, but I’m moving to a space where I can say that what is happening in my life is what i want to happen in my life. I don’t want to be with the woman i was married to. She’ll have to change if she wants me back. And if she doesn’t want to change, I’ll find someone else if I want to and I don’t think I will make these mistakes again.
My DB coach has been implying/asking, when is Scott going to say enough is enough. I think i understand what he was saying. I’ll keep working on it, but I’m feeling empowered.
I hope this is true. All I know is that you were freaking out over your daughter wanting to stay with your W during the lacrosse game, and then the next post is following an R talk with her. (What happened with that, by the way.) I hope you're being honest with yourself here, but what I see is a poster that has been looking for a reason to have the "one more chance" talk for weeks, and I feel the feelings that her text about your D staying with her instead of going to the lacrosse game caused pushed you over the edge to do it. And you've convinced yourself it was the right thing to do, and are rationalizing it to us. I pray I'm wrong, but that is my observation.
It’s about me feeling stronger, seeing her more clearly, and realizing what has happened here.
...she tried to rip me down and control and manipulate me gave me clarity. I don’t want to be with someone like that. She is not the prize.
I’m free, I can do what I want with my kids, I can hang out with my friends the way I want, I can have friends over, I’m not under constant scrutiny. I’m not going back to that crap. I know i still need to recover and get stronger, especially when it comes to dealing with her, but I’m moving to a space where I can say that what is happening in my life is what i want to happen in my life. I don’t want to be with the woman i was married to. She’ll have to change if she wants me back. And if she doesn’t want to change, I’ll find someone else if I want to and I don’t think I will make these mistakes again.
Hold on to this with both hands and don't let it go!! Keep it close by when she reaches out - and she will!! Remember it when she temp checks. Don't share this with her. No more R talks. Just actions.
Know that some days you might not "feel" like this - but feelings are finite.
This is strong. Stay strong.
I’m free, I can do what I want with my kids, I can hang out with my friends the way I want, I can have friends over, I’m not under constant scrutiny. I’m not going back to that crap. I know i still need to recover and get stronger, especially when it comes to dealing with her, but I’m moving to a space where I can say that what is happening in my life is what i want to happen in my life. I don’t want to be with the woman i was married to. She’ll have to change if she wants me back. And if she doesn’t want to change, I’ll find someone else if I want to and I don’t think I will make these mistakes again.
Scotty, one of my wisest friends (who knows both me and my STBXW well) recently told me that in 6-12 months I'll be doing great because I'm a great guy who has some great qualities and is still willing to work on the things that need it. He thinks she on the other hand will not be doing so well, and even if she is, I won't really give a sh!t. Sounds like the same will apply to you.
I’m free, I can do what I want with my kids, I can hang out with my friends the way I want, I can have friends over, I’m not under constant scrutiny. I’m not going back to that crap. I know i still need to recover and get stronger, especially when it comes to dealing with her, but I’m moving to a space where I can say that what is happening in my life is what i want to happen in my life. I don’t want to be with the woman i was married to. She’ll have to change if she wants me back. And if she doesn’t want to change, I’ll find someone else if I want to and I don’t think I will make these mistakes again.
So this is where a deep down happiness should come from....especially the parts in bold. When you do have to interact with her, you can have a true sense of happiness and let that shine through because you know that you are free.
I know I shouldn't re-explain this but here I go anyways.
Over the past years my STBXW has vacillated between "I want a Divorce" and "I want a Separation." When she moved out most recently and I asked her whether we were getting divorced or just separated she said, "I don't know, but I'm leaning towards divorce." That is why I felt the need to clarify 7 weeks later.
And again, she said the same thing. I get the feeling that in her mind she wants to see the divorce process through and then decide at the end whether or not she is going to go through with it or not AND she will go through with it, she just can't bring herself all the way around to say it.
Her personality is to delay and grind things out to force other people to make decisions. I imagine she wants me to finally make this decision for her or she wants an out, a way where she can point at me at the end of the day and say "See, Brad wanted this divorce."
Anyhow, I don't care. I don't want to play that game. I know I still have work to do; I'm still processing everything, but I'm getting used to having the kids less. I'm learning to appreciate my own time - though it still comes with challenges.
I am so thankful that she moved out and I kept the house, that has been huge for me.
On Wednesday I head to Florida for 5 days. She doesn't know I'm going but I did tell my son. When she finds out she is going to flip out. We'll see how I feel when that happens, I know I'm going to feel like I've done something wrong - I can't explain why - but I don't care. I get to make my own decisions now.
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R2c - Thanks for highlighting those words of mine. I wrote that down. It is a powerful reminder.
OnlyBent - I know what you said to be true. I'm making my peace with it in my time.
Thanks 97Hope!
LH/DunnM - D will have its challenges; And I do agree its better than being with someone who wants out.
Hey Brad (oops lol)
I thought the conversation went she didn’t care but what let you choose so as long as you were clear you weren’t working on the marriage.
My ex wanted to legally separate and nest in the beginning. I said no we will divorce then. She filed a week later.
Truthfully you are just into this so the convo didn’t do anything but maybe give you more clarity. If she wants to stop the D she will. Until then keep moving forward.
I have to say you can’t blame her for her concern of you going to Florida.
I just read a line in a book that made me think:
“A woman should be a compliment to a mans life, not the focus of it. When you start living for a woman, you become that woman.”
No truer words have ever been spoken!
Hi Scott,
first of all, you are doing a whole lot of mind reading. Secondly, you did not understand the message your W was trying to convey. Her telling you that she does not know if she wants a D or a separation in a clear statement on her part she wants you out of her life. You were just not hearing her. In your mind you probably heard her say that there is a chance. Believe me, there was none.
However you are correct in asuming she wants you to pull the trigger. She deffo does not want to appear as the bad guy and she deffo wants to shift the blame onto you.
I am not here to chastize you. You are doing well, very well. In order to internalize the lessons an individual sometimes has to go against the advice of others and experience the lesson by himself. Nothing wrong with that. We, the vets, try to share our experiences to try to spare the LBS of making the same mistakes (experiences) we made, thus shortening the learning curve.
We here on these boards, we are all in your corner, rooting for you.
On Wednesday I head to Florida for 5 days..... When she finds out she is going to flip out.
How much energy are you currently wasting on her emotional state?
I have noticed that here in Colorado, "The safest thing to do is to stay home" means to go on vacation in Colorado. Florida plates, NY plates, California plates, Texas plates are common. Our window to control C19 has passed. It is all about personal risk management now.
Have a great time in Florida. Have a great time validating your children's mother's emotional states. Have a great time setting her free.
Vapo - I think you’re right in both points. She’s been trying to get my to leave or divorce her for years. She may have worked on things for a bit when we were in Retrouvaille but overall she’s been looking to leave and she’s been testing me to see how much pressure I could tolerate.
Mentally I’m working to make the switch to focusing on our relationship as one of co-parents. I need to move forward in the divorce process, and I need to continue to make good decisions in regards to GAL.
Last night I went to my new men’s group. I’ve got five days coming up with my parents in FL. I get back and have the kids for two days, dinner with a client, a day off, then 5 days with the kids. I’m working my schedule about two weeks ahead. If I have nothing going on I’m likely to pine and feel lonely, so I’ve scheduled stuff out (and will continue to do so) as much as possible.
I know myself and if I have nights open, I am likely to falter.
R2C - I’m not spending as much energy as I was in her emotional state. I think as I transition the relationship to being co-parents that will help me mentally and emotionally. Also, journaling helps. Today I wrote about the stress I used to feel when she was around - anytime I would want to relax I would be stressed out in worry because she might not approve. For example, one day she was getting ready for My daughters birthday party And it looked like everything was ready. I asked if I could do anything else to help, she said no. I laid down in the couch and took a thirty minute nap. After the party that became a reason for us to get divorced. I was insensitive and didn’t care about anyone except myself.
Now, if I want to take a nap, play a video game, watch TV, make dinner late, go to the gym, I just do it and it’s cool. So I may spend some energy or concern on whether or not I’m going to piss her off (though I’m spending less innit all the time) but I’ve gotten so much back, it more than makes up for it.
Unhappy people will hand you a scroll of iniquities for what you did wrong at BD, and after - if you continue to allow it. Hint - tt's always a moving target! Couple that with their propensity to rewrite history - and it's maddening!!
If you spend enough time with a person who operates like this - a person who can't be happy on their own - you may start to believe that you are the problem. Also because of codependency - a need for them to be ok for you to be ok.
Freedom is when it matters not. When you maintain your own emotional balance despite what is going on around you or what others are experiencing/feeling. - "Man's Search for Meaning" Frankl - life changer!
As the veil lifts - you will see more and more instances where you were judged harshly. I used to feel guilty when I didn't have dinner ready. Serious guilt and shame. Or when I took a nap, or didn't get up early or watched a 'chick flick' and so many things...
X wouldn't say anything outright (passive aggressive was his style) but the sighs, disapproving looks (sometimes contempt) or backhand "jokes" wore me down. It got to the point where I was the butt of the family's jokes. One day it just dawned on me - when I eat, sleep etc. is really none of his business. Also - I'm not responsible FOR him. But it had become so normal to me that I just thought it was how things were.
I've since tried my best to model better behavior to my kids and point out when they say something disparaging to me or each other "as a joke" - it's almost a non-issue now. So watch that if your kids are raised with PA behavior or cruelty disguised as a 'joke'.
Keep exploring those feelings of yuck when you "know this is going to upset X" - because you can learn about yourself through this - and you can lean in to truth. What you know about yourself to be true - and what's just their stuff flinging your way.
Also regarding your "R" as co-parent going forward - you might like "parallel parenting". I think in about 99% of these cases - parallel is a better option. Imagine trying to 'co-anything' with someone who won't 'co-operate'...just my 2 c's.
Cheers to eating watermelon & yogurt for dinner and setting our thermometers to whatever the duck we want!!! LOL
Thanks Hope.
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I use this message board to explore my thoughts and feelings to a degree. I continue to reflect no the marriage and I think my Values are playing into this significantly. Family has always been my number one value and I've framed that around a long term marriage. No other value was even close to that of Family for me and the frame that I defined that through.
I don't miss my wife most of the time. Its not about her. The anxiety is about the unknown. The sadness is about a lifelong dream that has been lost. I'm mourning that dream and its hard to let go of.
Its about the dream, not about my wife. She just happens to be in the dream and the subject of it.
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The kids and I have this thing where we have been watching old Cosby episodes. The way they interact in the show is really interesting. Clair and Cliff never take themselves or the kids too seriously. They have a sense of humor and they are allowed to be who they are. They flirt, make jokes, its really a good example of marriage. And in nearly every episode their is a bedroom scene that implies intimacy.
Its so incredibly opposite of how my STBXW interacts with the world.
I don't miss my wife most of the time. Its not about her. The anxiety is about the unknown. The sadness is about a lifelong dream that has been lost. I'm mourning that dream and its hard to let go of.
Its about the dream, not about my wife. She just happens to be in the dream and the subject of it.
It's hard to accept that what you viewed as the dream your W viewed as a nightmare. You are starting to see things clearly Scotty B. It was never about your W, she's just a mythical character in your dream. Time to change what your dream life looks like. Hopefully it includes laughter, joy and people who want to be apart of your new amazing life.
You are getting there.
Time to change what your dream life looks like. Hopefully it includes laughter, joy and people who want to be apart of your new amazing life.
It’s much easier for those of us with BD and D at or near double digit years in the rear view mirror to look at it this way. But we only got here by first facing and then grieving what we lost. It’s normal to feel like you do Scott. You thought you had your dream life. It’s crushing to learn otherwise and takes time to get through. In some ways it will effect you for the rest of your life. I know it has me. That’s not bad, there is positive effect too. It changes who we are - again, sometimes for the good. But it does all get better as evidence by how LH and I can look back at and talk about it all so matter of fact and casually as we do now.
I happened to run across the five stages of grief today:
Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
I’m done with denial. I never really got angry that I recall. I bargained for a long time and May still go back there some. I can check off depression and I’m probably still working through that, but I do feel like I’m moving into acceptance.
I happened to run across the five stages of grief today:
Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
I’m done with denial. I never really got angry that I recall. I bargained for a long time and May still go back there some. I can check off depression and I’m probably still working through that, but I do feel like I’m moving into acceptance.
Expressing some anger in a healthy way should be part of your growth. Might talk to you IC about this.
Ultimately this is about getting yourself healthy. Finding the right balance in all your emotions. Knowing when and how to control or express/release them.
I happened to run across the five stages of grief today:
Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
I’m done with denial. I never really got angry that I recall. I bargained for a long time and May still go back there some. I can check off depression and I’m probably still working through that, but I do feel like I’m moving into acceptance.
Scotty B these stages are not linear and you bounce in and out of them for sometime. You have a long way to go before you het acceptance.
I never really got angry that I recall.
I never got angry at XW, but did go through some anger at just the general situation, and at God/ karma/ the universe for boning me over like that. If you don't process the anger it can pop up in unexpected ways, like going postal over someone cutting you off in traffic or something.
I bargained for a long time and May still go back there some. I can check off depression and I’m probably still working through that, but I do feel like I’m moving into acceptance.
Normally when someone says this and I look to see when they joined and it's been a couple of months then I think yeah, they're still in denial! But I think you said early on that this has been going on for years, right? So I'd say you're probably getting there. It usually does take a solid couple of years to really process all the stages and accept your "new normal".
I happened to run across the five stages of grief today:
Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
I’m done with denial. I never really got angry that I recall. I bargained for a long time and May still go back there some. I can check off depression and I’m probably still working through that, but I do feel like I’m moving into acceptance.
So she calls you tonight, says she wants to come back. Doesn't want MC, doesn't want IC, just wants things to go back to normal as they were pre-BD.
What do you do?
On the stages of grief-- I found another version that went denial-bargaining-anger-depression-acceptance, and that was a lot closer to my own path (bargaining before anger), in case that resonates more with you.
I also second RTC on the anger being an important part of the whole process. People here really questioned my lack of anger (as did my IC) and I thought I was past it. Turns out I had just shoved it down and when I started to open up that box, it was an intense, enormous well. I bought a punching bag and did a lot of angry journaling which really helped though I think I wasn't pleasant to be around for a few weeks. My IC helped me through this and I definitely recommend exploring this with your IC too. it still comes up for me but in manageable chunks and I now have strategies to work through it and let it go.
On the stages of grief-- I found another version that went denial-bargaining-anger-depression-acceptance, and that was a lot closer to my own path (bargaining before anger)
As a paramedic for nearly 25 years I’ve seen this play out right In Front of me, at least the first three. The different versions or order they occur may well relate to the different types of grief. A divorce versus death of a loved one perhaps.
Take suicide as an example. The person is found and 911 is called. We may attempt a resuscitation or may have determined the person has been dead for hours. As we help process the scene and wait for the medical examiner, family members often arrive. It was sometimes my job to greet them and deliver the often unbelievable news. Upon telling them their daughter, or fill in the blank, has died, the first stages would often take place, sometimes within minutes. It would often start with “no, no, no you’re lying to me.” Ive actually had people say that, or, are you sure maybe he’s just passed out. This is the denial. It can sometimes be quickly followed by bargaining, “Please God no, bring him back and I’ll do anything you want. Or even with us “please try to save her, can’t you shock her or do CPR or something?” With in minutes more they may begin screaming, throwing things, slamming doors, hitting the wall. They may say “why would you do this John, I hate you, I hate you for leaving us.” This is the anger. Again, it all sometimes happened over 10 minutes and would repeat back to denial or ebb and flow. We very often never saw the depression and of course never saw the acceptance, unless a long time later if our paths crossed.
Anyhow my point in all this is it’s not the same for everyone and also different for different types of grief. However it is amazing how accurate it is with and for many.
Wow Don! That sounds really intense. Gives me a new appreciation for just what your job entails!
I never got angry at XW, but did go through some anger at just the general situation, and at God/ karma/ the universe for boning me over like that. If you don't process the anger it can pop up in unexpected ways, like going postal over someone cutting you off in traffic or something.
We have been stuffing emotions down forever, they end up in our subconscious, and find ways to escape. Us humans stuff down so many things and then they bubble up at the wrong time. Google "radical forgiveness".
"wheel of emotions" is great chart. Helping my children process all of their emotions was challenging. I gave them a safe place to express them.
I'll respond to posts in a moment but I do have a question.
I went to Florida for the weekend and on Sunday my son text me to ask how it was. My wife checks his text messages and last night at 10:30pm she emailed me:
"Were you in Florida this weekend?"
Do I respond to that? And if so thoughts?
"Were you in Florida this weekend?"
Yes
Does your state have an out of state travel quarantine?
I'll respond to posts in a moment but I do have a question.
I went to Florida for the weekend and on Sunday my son text me to ask how it was. My wife checks his text messages and last night at 10:30pm she emailed me:
"Were you in Florida this weekend?"
Do I respond to that? And if so thoughts?
"Were you in Florida this weekend?"
Yes
THIS
Hi Scott, I agree with "Yes". As Ginger notes, there may be consequences to own. I know someone who completed a 7-day self-quarantine (with a negative test on day 5) to safely be with their family.
You told your son, so you can’t lie. FL is a very risky place for travel and she may be able to fight you on keeping the kids until you quarantine for a certain time and have a negative test.
Unfortunately in these times, it’s not a do whatever you want situation. She is probably going to have ground to stand on with this.
In the future, you either tell no one where you are going, or 2) don’t go at all until this pandemic is under control 3) discuss it with the W first so you can come up with a plan
Thanks for the thoughts. In the state I live in our positive test rate is higher than FL. Also, there are some states that the REQUEST we quarantine from if we go there, but Florida is not one of them.
First of all, I had a great trip to Florida. I did not want to come back. It was nice to be in a place where I didn't have to worry about anything and there was no pressure to do anything. That was refreshing.
And on my first day back, I feel like the STBXW is getting ready to ramp up the stress because of that email. R2C asked last week
How much energy are you currently wasting on her emotional state?
And the answer is way too much.
So she calls you tonight, says she wants to come back. Doesn't want MC, doesn't want IC, just wants things to go back to normal as they were pre-BD.
What do you do?
I read this and laughed. First, won't happen for quite some time as I am feeding her anger as I continue to breath. But if this was the case, I would laugh. I'm not open to going back. We could try dating for a time and see where it goes - that would be my response. She's put me and the kids through hell, I won't let that happen to them again and I'm still trying to find my own frame of reference for all of this, but I'm not going back to being her pin cushion.
-------------------
On my trip I was reading The Rational Male. I'm finding it interesting. I'm not sure what my take on it should be. Has anyone else read it?
So she calls you tonight, says she wants to come back. Doesn't want MC, doesn't want IC, just wants things to go back to normal as they were pre-BD.
What do you do?
I read this and laughed. First, won't happen for quite some time as I am feeding her anger as I continue to breath. But if this was the case, I would laugh. I'm not open to going back. We could try dating for a time and see where it goes - that would be my response. She's put me and the kids through hell, I won't let that happen to them again and I'm still trying to find my own frame of reference for all of this, but I'm not going back to being her pin cushion.
-------------------
On my trip I was reading The Rational Male. I'm finding it interesting. I'm not sure what my take on it should be. Has anyone else read it?
If this is true and you are being honest, then maybe you are moving into acceptance. Well done.
She has exhibited ZERO behaviors in the last 5 months that would indicate anything different than divorce. And in the last 17 months the reality is she has exhibited ZERO Proactive behaviors that would indicate anything different.
I have not been honest with myself because I couldn’t accept it. She has sent some mixed signals, but in reality it was me trying to read what I wanted into her behaviors. I’ve got to move on.
The next thing will be how to limit my emotional reactions to her BS.
———-
Today was her first day a work. On my way out of the house, I decided to grab a bottle of champagne and write a bit with it “Congrats, hope you have a great day.” I left it in the garage where she will drop off the kids stuff and began to pull away. Then I stopped and thought, what am i doing?! I opened the garage up, grabbed the note and the bottle, and drove away. She fired me. She doesn’t get that kind of attention from me anymore, was my thought.
I stopped and thought, what am i doing?! I opened the garage up, grabbed the note and the bottle, and drove away. She fired me.
Yay, Scott! That is a win.
Big ups for that one Scott!!! That’s huge! PROGRESS!
She has exhibited ZERO behaviors in the last 5 months that would indicate anything different than divorce. And in the last 17 months the reality is she has exhibited ZERO Proactive behaviors that would indicate anything different.
I have not been honest with myself because I couldn’t accept it. She has sent some mixed signals, but in reality it was me trying to read what I wanted into her behaviors. I’ve got to move on.
My only caution here is that there a difference in accepting that she isn't coming back and not wanting to go back to the way things were. Lots of LBSs get to the point where they finally realize that their walkaway is not going to change their mind, but the LBS is still OPEN to that possibility deep down and ready to accept any conditions the WAS puts on it. What I want you to do do is work towards the latter, not WANTING to go back to the way things were. Then if she decides she does want to come back, you are the one that states conditions for that to occur! (MC, IC for her, etc.)
But I agree with the others, great step in stopping yourself from the celebration champagne.
I'm not willing to accept conditions that she puts on this. Her behavior has not been acceptable. If she comes back she will try to be the one that issues the report card to me, the way it has always been.
"Scott, these are the things that are wrong with you. You need to fix them to earn my love and save our marriage. I'll wait here and watch while you get to work, good luck."
No Beuno! I'm not the only one here who has dealt with this and it is utter BS. Despicable. I'm not doing that again. Not that way. If we were ever to reconcile I will take and hold the steering wheel for a while. She won't like it, and that's why ultimately its not going to work out or happen, which is why I'm moving on.
I'm not willing to accept conditions that she puts on this. Her behavior has not been acceptable. If she comes back she will try to be the one that issues the report card to me, the way it has always been.
"Scott, these are the things that are wrong with you. You need to fix them to earn my love and save our marriage. I'll wait here and watch while you get to work, good luck."
No Beuno! I'm not the only one here who has dealt with this and it is utter BS. Despicable. I'm not doing that again. Not that way. If we were ever to reconcile I will take and hold the steering wheel for a while. She won't like it, and that's why ultimately its not going to work out or happen, which is why I'm moving on.
Good! Cement this. So many LBSs want to take a hardline with the WAS, but waffle the minute the WAS hints they are willing to try. Make sure she REALLY wants to come back by being the one with conditions.
You've got this, Scott. Keep growing.
Well, she tried to light me up today.
After I said I went to Florida she sent me an email asking why I “violated” our agreement not to travel. I said that I didn’t And asked her to read the agreement our mediator put together. Then she comes over to drop something off for our daughter. I let her greet the kids and then Waited outside.
Once the kids were gone I said we should talk about the travel. She said nope. I said if you read the agreement... and she started running to her car. I told her that I was no longer going to accept the way she treats me as she slammed her door and drove off.
Then she got home and sent me four emails. One saying she read our agreement and that I was wrong, that we had committed not to travel. (This was not true and immediately sent it to an attorney friend of mine to confirm I wasn’t crazy - she read it and confirmed my thinking).
She sent me another email about kids sports (which I had already sent her the schedule for earlier in the day). Another one telling me to call my neighbor because he owes my son money for chores. And another saying she signed up for some family software to manage our calendar, which had been written into our “agreement”.
Holy smokes. It almost ruined my first night with the kids in five days; I was really on tilt.
But, I’m glad I stood my ground and stuck up for myself. This was not a time to listen and validate or to be a patsy. She needs to stop trying to control me and push me around. She used to do this all the time, she would say I agreed to something that I never agreed to and then claim I was changing the truth; this time it’s literally in writing and she STILL claims I’m changing the story. It’s crazy. I remember clearly going over our arrangement with the mediator and the mediator telling her she couldn’t control me and that I could make my own decisions.
Maybe somewhere here would say I should have handled something differently. Maybe i should not have replied to her email that accused me of “violations.” My reply was short and direct. Maybe when she stopped by i should not have said anything to her at all. But at some point, I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore. That’s got to end.
Well, she tried to light me up today.
I agree Scott should not allow his STBXW to tell him what to do. Maybe the anger helps with that. I would consider calming down before you interact for your sanity and the co-parenting relationship.
After I said I went to Florida she sent me an email asking why I “violated” our agreement not to travel.
I'd probably reply, "Oh, what section of our agreement do you believe my travel violated?" Unless a matter is urgent, I only reply to my ex on my kid-free days, so as not to eat into time with my kids.
Once the kids were gone I said we should talk about the travel. She said nope. I said if you read the agreement... and she started running to her car.
You did not accept "No" for an answer. That doesn't sound good and could escalate.
I told her that I was no longer going to accept the way she treats me as she slammed her door and drove off. I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue.
I'm baffled by what you mean. She's free to make claims you violate the agreement or say "No" to a conversation with you anytime she wants. You control whether you engage or get riled up.
One saying she read our agreement and that I was wrong, that we had committed not to travel. (This was not true and immediately sent it to an attorney friend of mine to confirm I wasn’t crazy - she read it and confirmed my thinking).
If she goes to court, it sounds like you are confident in your agreement and state travel guidelines.
I'm a big fan of the progress you have made. This is how I interpret your interactions with your STBXW--
If Steve goes on the trip:
: This is Steve being in-control and Steve standing up for himself
If Steve cancels his trip because it's risky, breaks his agreement, or breaks state rules:
: This is Steve being prudent
If Steve cancels a trip because his wife says so:
: This is Steve's wife being in control and Steve not standing up for himself
If Steve ignores or responds briefly to his STBXW's e-mail:
: This is Steve detaching
If Steve gets riles up, argues who's right, won't stop after "No", and believes his STBXW must change:
: This is Steve NOT detaching
I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore.
She's most in control when you allow her to drive your choices, somewhat in control when you allow her to drive your words and feelings (where you are now), and least in control when you detach and let go.
She used to do this all the time, she would say I agreed to something that I never agreed to and then claim I was changing the truth; this time it’s literally in writing and she STILL claims I’m changing the story. It’s crazy. I remember clearly going over our arrangement with the mediator and the mediator telling her she couldn’t control me and that I could make my own decisions.
Scott,
Google gas lighting.
Classic Narc trait.
I believed i was going crazy when my WW was gaslighting me. I resorted to always carrying an old iphone in my pocket recording. After a few days of listening to our conversations, i realised i wasn't going crazy - she was telling me one thing, to change it days later and make out like i was wrong or crazy.
My ex still does this - hence i insist on all child correspondance in writing.. Ironically, she still does it on email..
keep it all to emails - do not engage in verbal converation.. You may leave with your head spinning.
Well, she tried to light me up today.
After I said I went to Florida she sent me an email asking why I “violated” our agreement not to travel. I said that I didn’t And asked her to read the agreement our mediator put together. Then she comes over to drop something off for our daughter. I let her greet the kids and then Waited outside.
Once the kids were gone I said we should talk about the travel. She said nope. I said if you read the agreement... and she started running to her car. I told her that I was no longer going to accept the way she treats me as she slammed her door and drove off.
Then she got home and sent me four emails. One saying she read our agreement and that I was wrong, that we had committed not to travel. (This was not true and immediately sent it to an attorney friend of mine to confirm I wasn’t crazy - she read it and confirmed my thinking).
She sent me another email about kids sports (which I had already sent her the schedule for earlier in the day). Another one telling me to call my neighbor because he owes my son money for chores. And another saying she signed up for some family software to manage our calendar, which had been written into our “agreement”.
Holy smokes. It almost ruined my first night with the kids in five days; I was really on tilt.
But, I’m glad I stood my ground and stuck up for myself. This was not a time to listen and validate or to be a patsy. She needs to stop trying to control me and push me around. She used to do this all the time, she would say I agreed to something that I never agreed to and then claim I was changing the truth; this time it’s literally in writing and she STILL claims I’m changing the story. It’s crazy. I remember clearly going over our arrangement with the mediator and the mediator telling her she couldn’t control me and that I could make my own decisions.
Maybe somewhere here would say I should have handled something differently. Maybe i should not have replied to her email that accused me of “violations.” My reply was short and direct. Maybe when she stopped by i should not have said anything to her at all. But at some point, I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore. That’s got to end.
Wow. Overall, good job. However, IF you have the legal standing to go to FL based on the agreement.....WHO CARES what she thinks? Chasing her out to the car wanting to discuss it is not DBing. That is pressure. That is literally pursuit!
Remember, be firm, resolved, not angry or mean.
She is actually better at this than you are. She is keeping all of your communications in writing in email. That should be your tact as well.
Email from WAS: "You violated the mediation agreement by traveling."
Email response: "No I didn't. I will discuss this with my lawyer." (Note, I don't care that you agreed to mediation, D is a legal proceeding and even with mediation you need a lawyer to understand your rights and what is legal!)
Then drop it.
"Maybe somewhere here would say I should have handled something differently. Maybe i should not have replied to her email that accused me of “violations.” My reply was short and direct. Maybe when she stopped by i should not have said anything to her at all. But at some point, I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore. That’s got to end. "
Where did she try to beat on you? In her opinion the mediation agreement said that you couldn't travel. In yours it allows it. So talk to a lawyer and understand it.
In the future, do not let her know your comings and goings. When she has the kids, that is SCOTT TIME. Go do what Scott wants to do. Your kids don't need to know. Your STBXW doesn't need to know. I have to wonder if the letting your son know about the Florida trip was secretly an attempt to get that information to her. Scott, if that is even true in the slightest, you need to reign that in. Detached people do not do those kinds of things. AND they almost always backfire on you.
At minimum, never chase her out to the car no matter what she is accusing you of. SHE isn't the one you need to worry about. The mediator and a judge are.
One last thing. Likely, if she is making this false accusation it is because she doesn't like the way mediation is going. I based that on her baseless accusations in the first mediation, and then jumping on the first thing (your travel) she could to try to say you violated the mediated agreement. Likely she is about to go the nuclear option. You need to lawyer up.
You are letting her light you up . Don’t engage. You are the only one to enforce your boundary. You can’t stop her from what she chooses to say or do, but you can chose how to handle it .
My ex boyfriend had a very contentious relationship with his ex wife. They communicate with an app, they have a court appointed parent coordinator and exchanged their kid at the police station.
Your relationship isn’t there. But one thing that always impressed me was how he kept his cool. He relied on the facts he knew to be true. He kept everything honest and real that he knew any ridiculous complaint or accusation that could made was covered .
If you know for sure that agreement said nothing about agreeing not to travel, then you have no reason to engage. You should be the one walking away, not her.
Calm cool collected responses if you are going to respond. “ I will have my lawyer look at the agreement to be clarified” done.
I was very explosive in the beginning. Emotional. I spoke on emotion. I yelled on emotion. I understand it. But learn that you can’t stop her from “lighting you up” but you can chose to walk away from it and not engage
Lots of helpful stuff here.
My first issue is how I let her get to me. I'll have to manage that and I can. I can't let her see me get upset.
Second, I am waking up to how she has manipulated and controlled me in the past, and the truth is it has made me angry. I reflected on this a lot in Florida and so when she began in on me it hit a nerve at the wrong time and I struggled to keep my cool when she stopped by. If she hadn't stopped by, I was doing a good job managing it.
Steve85 - My son and I are very close and he is not close at all with his mother - I did not expect him to tell her. I wanted my son to know where I was. When I came back with a tan, I didn't want him to think I was hiding this from him. I was confident he would not tell my STBXW and at the same time I wasn't hiding that I was going away, I just wasn't announcing it.
And I didn't physically chase her, I continued to speak from my porch as she ran away. I should not have done that, but that's now water over the dam, hopefully I can learn for the next time.
And I think she is making this false accusation because she believes it. Her thinking is clouded because she wants to believe it. That's how she changes and bends the truth, I've seen this before. The document is clear and as I mentioned I had an attorney re-review it for me last night to make sure I was correct.
Now she's in my head again. I was debating going back to Florida next week but now I have this on mind.
Scott, I am getting the sense of rationalization and "reasoning". IE, excuse making. "I am close to my son." "I shouted from the porch." Etc. Just something to watch. Remember, you are trying to become the best Scott you can be. If you were a right-fighter in your marriage that is something you will want to change for your next R. Right-fighters are miserable in life because they'd rather be right than happy.
And do not stick your head in the sand related to where this D is going. She is already showing signs of escalation. Having A lawyer look at something is not the same as having YOUR lawyer look at something. One is a friend, doing a favor. The other is a paid resource that will be honest, forthright, and upfront with you. I stand by what I said, you better hire an attorney.
If the agreement has no prohibition on travel, then why would you not go back? Read CW's post above about what standing for yourself looks like.
Scott, work on detaching from this woman. Get back to where you were a few posts ago. She is being difficult. You have a long-road ahead of you of her being difficult. If you let it affect you emotionally then you will continue to struggle.
Finally, keep all interaction with her to email. Like I said, she is already ahead of you on this front.
From my personal notes:
Communication
Figure out what kind of person I am currently dealing with. Respond to each type completely different:
1) Wise people listen, so talking to them works.
2) When dealing with foolish people, stop talking and set limits and consequences.
3) If the person is behaving evil, let lawyers and law enforcement deal with them.
Remember, 55% of the message is conveyed visually through body language and facial expressions, 38% is expressed vocally by my tempo, tone and inflections and only 7% verbally through my words. Before speaking, assure all 3V’s are congruent to avoid confusing the listener.
Lets assume she is acting foolish for now. If boundaries don't work, then you move to #3.
After I said I went to Florida she sent me an email asking why I “violated” our agreement not to travel. I said that I didn’t And asked her to read the agreement our mediator put together.
Do not be direct. Be indirect as someone else pointed out. H:"Which clause of our agreement do you believe I violated?"
Then she comes over to drop something off for our daughter. I let her greet the kids and then Waited outside.
Did you agree for her to come over? Might be another place for a boundary. Right now, do you think it is good for her to come around during your parenting time?
When you....
I feel....
If you....
I will....
Once the kids were gone I said we should talk about the travel. She said nope. I said if you read the agreement... and she started running to her car. I told her that I was no longer going to accept the way she treats me as she slammed her door and drove off.
Do not chase a cat.(IE don't instigate any conversations with her. If she brings something up, listen and validate....right now is the time to STFU and listen.
Then she got home and sent me four emails.
You are blessed! I wish my X would split emails into individual topics. Email should be your primary communication with her. It gives you time to clarify all your thoughts. Run any past us if you want.
One saying she read our agreement and that I was wrong, that we had committed not to travel. (This was not true and immediately sent it to an attorney friend of mine to confirm I wasn’t crazy - she read it and confirmed my thinking).
I reviewed MY divorce agreement. On page 11, in section 8.f it states "If either of us travels with our children for an extended period of time, he or she shall give the other the location and telephone number where the children may be reached in the event of an emergency".
"Travel with the children" is the important clause. "Extend period" is vague and and if Either of us had an issues I would negotiate concrete values.
Wife does this work for you?-->
"If either of us travels with our children outside of the state for more than 5 days, he or she shall give (before the children leave) the other the location and telephone number where the children may be reached in the event of an emergency". If not, do you want more or less days?
She sent me another email about kids sports (which I had already sent her the schedule for earlier in the day).
H:"Thanks"
Another one telling me to call my neighbor because he owes my son money for chores.
Either set boundary (if you dont' want her "Telling you to do this that or the other" ..Or "I will take care of it"
And another saying she signed up for some family software to manage our calendar, which had been written into our “agreement”.[/quote]
"Perfect!"
She used to do this all the time, she would say I agreed to something that I never agreed to and then claim I was changing the truth; this time it’s literally in writing and she STILL claims I’m changing the story. It’s crazy. I remember clearly going over our arrangement with the mediator and the mediator telling her she couldn’t control me and that I could make my own decisions.
YUP...gaslighting.
But at some point, I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore. That’s got to end.
"Sorry you feel that way" goes along way.
Two weeks ago our mediator sent us a different set of documents that my STBXW and I were supposed to review ahead of our next mediation session which is next Wednesday. I emailed her today to ask how she wanted to review them and make decisions.
Based on everything above I should probably push to do this over email but its a bunch of decisions that need to be negotiated. Vacation, holidays, times for different things. Anyhow, I finally broke down to ask her when she wanted to go over it because she doesn't do anything. She just sits on this stuff and lets it go (which is eventually going to cost us money).
Scott, I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here regarding the travel. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so these are extraordinary times. I am 59 and I've never lived through anything like this in the past. Personally I think it is foolish to travel unnecessarily right now. Anyone that does so is putting themselves AND those close to them at risk. I've known quite a few people that have gotten Covid, and their illnesses have ranged from "wow I was really tired" to "I lost my sense of taste and smell for a month" to "I was on a ventilator and they thought I was going to die" to actual death. All were people with no preexisting health conditions. There is absolutely no predicting how it's going to effect a given person. When you travel you are exposing yourself, and you can EASILY transmit it to others before even showing symptoms. So in my opinion, your W has every right to be angry about it. Because your choice to travel has put you, her and your children ALL at risk.
I think people who are suggesting to you that you did the right thing, and that you should go back again are losing sight of a very basic DBing tenet and that is this- DON'T ROCK THE BOAT. Right now your W is just looking for reasons to dislike you more than she already does. So you ALWAYS take the high road. You ALWAYS act with dignity and respect, even when you are being disrespected.
Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.
Two weeks ago our mediator sent us a different set of documents that my STBXW and I were supposed to review ahead of our next mediation session which is next Wednesday. I emailed her today to ask how she wanted to review them and make decisions.
Based on everything above I should probably push to do this over email but its a bunch of decisions that need to be negotiated. Vacation, holidays, times for different things. Anyhow, I finally broke down to ask her when she wanted to go over it because she doesn't do anything. She just sits on this stuff and lets it go (which is eventually going to cost us money).
Get a lawyer. I know you are in denial about this, but it is about to turn ugly.
Steve - I’ve got an attorney. I’m ready for this to break down.
Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.
I am not disagreeing with AS, but I do not know the details of your trip to FL. Were you out clubbing with out face mask, making out with multiple ladies that were constantly coughing? Or did you spend the whole time walking on an isolated beach alone? Did you fly? Did you drive?
Bottom line, we all have different risk tolerances. Ho risky were you? If you were risky, get a test. If you were not risky, get a test anyways. All the drama goes away.
H:"I tested negative"
or
H:"I tested positive. I am in quarantine. Do you want to watch the kids during my parenting time or do I need to make arrangements with my parents?"
I wasn't risky. I played golf with my parents, stayed at their house, went to the beach once, my dad and I went to an outdoor bar once, and we did go to dinner at an outdoor restaurant. The riskiest thing I did was to fly. I don't feel sick and I'm not getting tested.
I did think AS idea for a 180 was brilliant, and if we were in a different place I would do it, but I think I'm done with that. I am thinking about the last several years of interactions. I tried everything under the sun. Bottom line is she never made any attempt to change. She was unhappy and believes I'm the reason. She believes I was controlling, manipulative, gaslighting, abusive, and a narcissist. She didn't work and did less and less around the house while I picked up more responsibilities. She would claim she did "everything around here" as she continued to help out less and do less.
I might be past some of the DB-ing ideas. Whether or not she changes her mind in any fashion is up to her. I agree with AS that I may want to consider "not rocking the boat," but at the same time I'm kind of interested in moving on.
Her affair started in 2015. And before that, in 2014 I remember thinking that the only way I felt love from her was because she would make love to me. Otherwise she was mean.
I was in love with the memory of her from 2000 when we met until about 2012 when she began to change into a different person than the one I had known. I held on to that memory for a very very long time and hoped she would become the woman I loved again, but that woman is gone. Every once in a while I would see that woman again, just a glimpse. I could see her in her eyes or her smile, but that woman is not coming back. I need to mourn that loss and move on.
I also held tightly onto this for the kids. When it started my daughter was 4. Through all I did I was able to earn 5 more years of seeing my daughter every day. My son was 7, I did the same for him.
She refused to change, she had the affair, she pushed the separation and divorce, she can have it.
I now need to learn to respect myself again, stand up for myself again, and get stronger, without getting aggressive. That's my challenge. I need to get back to who I was when I was fun loving, knew my self-worth, and could determine my Own path.
I liked your idea AS, but that moment has passed.
I did sign up for the vaccine - I would love to see that come through.
Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.
WORST ADVICE EVER!!!!!!!!! After nearly a year of this craziness now we should suggest we listen to WAW/WW and their crazy beliefs. This is YOUR belief AS it is not law or even suggested by all - certainly by some but not by all. Everyone has to be somewhere and that includes Scott. He can just as easily contract covid at home by doing risky behavior. He doesn’t need to travel to get it. Just because after 10 months of restrictions he decided to take a trip does not mean he is wrong nor owes his W ANYTHING. She’s just looking for something, anything to make a big deal about. So what’s next, apologize for not wearing a mask someplace? Apologize for giving a causal acquaintance a hug? Because he went to a bar or restaurant? How does it matter WHERE he did these things? Many people have returned to travel. Many have returned to flying. Precautions are taken but certainly there is still risk. Well newsflash, there is some risk in EVERYTHING we do. There will be 20,000 people at the Super Bowel in 10 days. If he was lucky enough to score tickets should he not attend anymore?
Scott’s W lost the right to tell him what to do when she fired him as her husband. She can’t have it both ways and to let her think she does is cake eating. If she decides it’s too risky to be around him for 7 days this is HER CHOICE. She can stay away. I’d even go so far as to keep the kids away for a period. But to restrict Scott’s life is wrong. Let me add I know people who wore their masks more than Batman did. They washed their hands until they were raw. They rarely went anywhere and took huge safety steps when they did. Hey they later tell me, “I don’t know how I caught covid, I did everything right.” Yep, that’s why it’s called contagious. It spreads despite out best efforts.
Everyone wants to have others handle covid, and much of life, like they do. It’s not our call. It’s up to people to live their lives within the laws we have. His wife (and you) can chose to lock yourself in your house for a year if you feel that is best for you. You can also chose not to sky dive or carry a gun or eat red meet if you feel that’s best for you. But to tell others they too should not sky dive, carry a gun or eat fatty foods is just wrong. To allow a STBX to dictate any of this or need to apologize for having done it is just really, really bad advice. Let me also say I tend to agree with much of the advice you provide. Just not this time.
I'm with Don. I don't understand why taking a trip would be that risky. Of course, I'm not sheltering/cowering in my house 24/7 either.
I now need to learn to respect myself again, stand up for myself again, and get stronger, without getting aggressive. That's my challenge. I need to get back to who I was when I was fun loving, knew my self-worth, and could determine my Own path.
Yup.
Learning how to let others express their emotions without changing your state is wonderful thing. Letting go of the rope is the goal. "The one who emotionally reacts first looses." You are the emotional rock. Calm. Content. Happy with your life the way it is.
On the COVID and travel... what's the long game for Scott? My understanding given what he's shared is that the long game is to get the most time he can with his children in a divorce settlement. I would bet you that she's keeping tabs of all his travel (whether you think it is risky or not, the official CDC recommendation is not to travel right now) and this is all going to come up in the custody battle. There are examples of judges revoking custody for a parent who has been exposing their children to risky COVID behavior.
My advice? Figure out what is most important to you long term and then make every decision with that goal in mind. Who cares if she thinks she can still control you? If she thinks she's in the driver's seat, you are more likely to get what you want. If you fan the flames right now and do anything that could give her ammunition in the coming divorce, I would question whether or not you're just acting on emotion and short-term pleasure (like travel).
The truth is, when going through a divorce during a pandemic that isn’t exactly amicable with kids, this is risky. It’s like a time you should really err on the caution and not take risky moves.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a time of documenting risky behavior, and some think it is, some think it isn’t. And if courts are putting pieces of a puzzle together, then it may not be in your best interest.
I’m
Not even saying if it’s right or wrong to travel right now. You went to visit your parents, that’s great, which will work on your favor . You weren’t in the Miami clubs which, oh man, a coworker went to and took pictures and that was bad.
Anyways, err on the side of caution. Consult with your lawyer. These are indeed unprecedented times . It is being worked into divorce agreements these days.
I don’t think this is going to hurt you. And forget her and how she feels about it. All you need to know is how the courts would feel about it. So talk to your lawyer.
It looks like may and cross posted and we are on pretty much on the same one in the same thought process!
Her affair started in 2015. And before that, in 2014 I remember thinking that the only way I felt love from her was because she would make love to me. Otherwise she was mean.
Wait. Was this disclosed before? How did I miss this?
Great minds, Ginger
WORST ADVICE EVER!!!!!!!!! After nearly a year of this craziness now we should suggest we listen to WAW/WW and their crazy beliefs. This is YOUR belief AS it is not law or even suggested by all - certainly by some but not by all. Everyone has to be somewhere and that includes Scott.
Don, you can express your disagreement without throwing a temper tantrum. I told Scott my opinion, he acknowledged it was good advice, he considered it and he rejected it for personal reasons which is absolutely his right and I respect that. You however do not have the right to express your opinion like it is the only one that matters. Step back, take a deep breath, relax, chill. You have an opposing view then by all means express it, but do not come in here attacking me or anyone else, you do not have the right.
Her affair started in 2015. And before that, in 2014 I remember thinking that the only way I felt love from her was because she would make love to me. Otherwise she was mean.
Wait. Was this disclosed before? How did I miss this?
Yes, this has been posted a good bit. I was referring to it as an EA. Now I'm not so sure. She always said nothing ever happened and he said the same to his wife. It came to an end when his wife found the two of them in the backseat of my wife's SUV and took a video. The windows are tinted and she was from across the parking lot. All that can be seen in the video is him getting out of the backseat of the car. At the time his clothes were not disheveled. I never got to the bottom of what happened - probably because I didn't really want to know.
Her affair started in 2015. And before that, in 2014 I remember thinking that the only way I felt love from her was because she would make love to me. Otherwise she was mean.
Wait. Was this disclosed before? How did I miss this?
Yes, this has been posted a good bit. I was referring to it as an EA. Now I'm not so sure. She always said nothing ever happened and he said the same to his wife. It came to an end when his wife found the two of them in the backseat of my wife's SUV and took a video. The windows are tinted and she was from across the parking lot. All that can be seen in the video is him getting out of the backseat of the car. At the time his clothes were not disheveled. I never got to the bottom of what happened - probably because I didn't really want to know.
Okay, wow, must have forgotten. I was under the impression your W was just unhappy and wanted to end the MR. Scott, please keep detaching because I'm quite sure the other shoe of an OM is going to drop and I fear it will set you back.
I expect that as well. I've heard rumors. Its hard for me to believe because the guy I've heard rumors about is 30, just had a baby, is super fit, and my wife is 41 and not nearly as attractive as the guys wife - but you never know. I do expect something is probably up.
It would give me a lot of freedom if there was another man again.
It would give me a lot of freedom if there was another man again.
What do you mean by this Scotty B?
Yeah, she was in the backseat with another man 5 years ago.....and here we are.
It would give me a lot of freedom if there was another man again.
What do you mean by this Scotty B?
To completely give up, walk away, and I would start dating.
To completely give up, walk away, and I would start dating.
Would you date others, when you're still attached enough your STBXW can rile you up?
Don, you can express your disagreement without throwing a temper tantrum. I told Scott my opinion, he acknowledged it was good advice, he considered it and he rejected it for personal reasons which is absolutely his right and I respect that. You however do not have the right to express your opinion like it is the only one that matters. Step back, take a deep breath, relax, chill. You have an opposing view then by all means express it, but do not come in here attacking me or anyone else, you do not have the right.
Honestly, that was intended as much as a playfully-sarcastic response as anything. After sending it I figured it may not land that way as often happens with text only. Obviously it’s not the worst advice ever in a literal sense. I still stand by my comments but the contrived humor-attempted exaggeration got lost, and for that I apologize.
It does still hit me that in the past, smoking pot with your kids or taking an 11 year old to an R rated movie, or allowing or facilitating them to do something that could truly bring them harm like taking them to a violent protest/riot would be seen as a risky pre D move that could paint them in a bad light with the court. But in 2020, and evidently continuing into 2021, having the brazen audacity to fly to Florida to visit family is placed on the same level. How far we have come in so short of time. And not in a good way.
You really think you are in a good mental
Space to date?
To completely give up, walk away, and I would start dating.
*healing
Scott, take this time to work on yourself. Broken attracts broken. If you do not put in the work now, you will be setting yourself up for a future BD in a new R.
Scott, I know you do a lot of work with these retreats and men’s clubs and GAL. You fill up every single second of your free time to distract yourself.
While anxiously GAL is a great thing, I’m worried that you can’t just “be” alone and still for any period of time. That’s what you should be working on. Not filling it in with dating.
Gradually introduce yourself to some quiet calm free time. It’s actually very rewarding. Binge watch a show in your sweats a few hours one day. Read a book NOT A REALTIONSHIO OR SEL HELP BOOK) learn a new hobby in the solitude of your home. Cool yourself a nice meal and then eat it alone.
Before you can be good company to another lady, you have to learn to be good solo company to yourself
Scott, I know you do a lot of work with these retreats and men’s clubs and GAL. You fill up every single second of your free time to distract yourself.
While anxiously GAL is a great thing, I’m worried that you can’t just “be” alone and still for any period of time. That’s what you should be working on. Not filling it in with dating.
Gradually introduce yourself to some quiet calm free time. It’s actually very rewarding. Binge watch a show in your sweats a few hours one day. Read a book NOT A REALTIONSHIO OR SEL HELP BOOK) learn a new hobby in the solitude of your home. Cool yourself a nice meal and then eat it alone.
Before you can be good company to another lady, you have to learn to be good solo company to yourself
Workout alone! I found doing that really is mentally and emotionally soothing.
To completely give up, walk away, and I would start dating.
Would you date others, when you're still attached enough your STBXW can rile you up?
Yes. Lots of people can rile me, that doesn’t mean I change my life because of it. Work colleagues, clients, kids, my brother. I’m not sure how someone pissing me off is the measuring stick. I am confident that for the rest of my life my STBXW will be pissing me off.
You really think you are in a good mental
Space to date?
Hm. I’m not looking for the next Mrs. Scottb. I’m just talking about going out for a drink here or there and getting back into the game.
Scott, take this time to work on yourself. Broken attracts broken. If you do not put in the work now, you will be setting yourself up for a future BD in a new R.
I am just saying that I’m about 95% done with my STBXW. Getting emails from her annoys me. Seeing her new picture for her new job on linkedin, I found her to be unattractive, old looking, and I think she’s losing hair. I feel sorry for her. She’s a mess; two faced, fake, I don’t want to deal with her anymore. She needs real help.
Anyhow, I’ll be moving on fast when I move. I can feel it. We all walk our own path. We’ll see what mine looks like.
Scott, take this time to work on yourself. Broken attracts broken. If you do not put in the work now, you will be setting yourself up for a future BD in a new R.
I am just saying that I’m about 95% done with my STBXW. Getting emails from her annoys me. Seeing her new picture for her new job on linkedin, I found her to be unattractive, old looking, and I think she’s losing hair. I feel sorry for her. She’s a mess; two faced, fake, I don’t want to deal with her anymore. She needs real help.
Anyhow, I’ll be moving on fast when I move. I can feel it. We all walk our own path. We’ll see what mine looks like.
Scott, read what Ginger said. Learn to be happy by yourself. It is your life, but we've seen others jump from one R to another with disastrous effects. Nothing wrong with being alone for a while, don't let fear dictate what you do next. I'd also highly recommend a good round of IC for several months to help you get over your trauma.
Yes. Lots of people can rile me, that doesn’t mean I change my life because of it. Work colleagues, clients, kids, my brother. I’m not sure how someone pissing me off is the measuring stick. I am confident that for the rest of my life my STBXW will be pissing me off.
I see. Maybe a personality difference? My ex-wife, work colleagues, and most clients can't rile me up--because they have little to no power of me. My ex-GF still can, so I'm NC, and I'll be over her when she can't.
I found her to be unattractive, old looking, and I think she’s losing hair.
Is this objective Scott, or did you switch from rose-colored lenses to dark shades? When I felt into my ex-GF I focused on her eyes, her behind, and her fitness. When I was not, I focused on her age lines.
Anyhow, I’ll be moving on fast when I move. I can feel it. We all walk our own path. We’ll see what mine looks like.
Often people who rush into dating are masking something--e.g, their grief or inability to be happy solo. The first new person you sleep with after many years can stir up powerful emotions. If you don't take time to work out your baggage and figure out what you really want, the chance of getting stuck on someone unsuitable for a LTR with you seems high per other situations. You do you. Just food for thought. Stay strong, Scott!
Using my DB ninja skills, I translated this
WORST ADVICE EVER!!!!!!!!!
as
"I politely disagree"
Steve85 - I'm in IC, I don't feel like I'm getting much out of it but I'll keep doing it. I'm trying to get out of it what I can. It feels like all he wants me to do is connect with my emotions. I'll admit that is not my default and I'm not really sure why I need to do that. It seems that the perspective is that if I'm more connected to my emotions I'll live life more vibrantly I guess? Anyhow, I'll keep at it.
And I'm not going to jump into a LTR anytime soon. But, I would like to find a couple of women to be able to go out with from time to time. And CW is probably right, I'm probably using it to mask my grief - I think it has more to do with re-establishing my confidence. Either way, I do think it would be fun.
My STBXW and I are having a meeting on Saturday to go through a document that our mediator wants us to review. It feels risky to meet to do it, but I do like taking chances and it may lead to additional closure which would be great. I'll probably see her tonight as well at my son's lacrosse game as well. It will be interesting to see how my emotions react in each case.
Per Ginger's point, I grew up very lonely. I spent a lot of time alone before I got married. At that time I played tons of online poker to the point that I was able to calculate my hourly rate (which is when I quit). During baseball season I would plan my days around my favorite MLB teams. I didn't like that lifestyle.
During the work week I'm plenty busy. But with the cold and a full day on these weekends, it kind of stinks. Once the sun is out I'll have a lot more to do in the yard and other activities. Also, my kids will a combined 80 sporting events between 3/1 and 7/1 so if I stay in town I'll have stuff to do. Regardless though, I'm interested in getting out and meeting women to see what's out there.
I'm not sure that I seem the harm in it, other than it makes a road back to marriage more unlikely. But I don't see a road back anyhow, she's off the reservation, I don't think I love her any longer, I'm not sure if I like her, I know I don't trust her and I know I don't respect her at this point.
It do you think a quality woman will be a woman who is willing to be used to fill your void?
Or are you fine with a woman just looking to fill her void too?
Being a woman who I had been on and off dating sites who is looking for a real partner , not someone to fill a void, I literally fear men who aren’t being being honest and they just want to fill a void too.
It could potentially be harmful to the women you date of you aren’t honest. And if you fall for one and you haven’t changed that daddy codependent dynamic you had with your exW, well, there is a lot of harm in that.
An IC who helps you change dynamic for a future healthy you and an R would probably very beneficial.
Hey, no one knows being alone on a cold winters day better than me. And I can actually find someone to fill that void very easily. But it is not healthy and not fair to someone else, nor is it desirable to be
Scott,
You are in control of your emotions, they don't simply "react" like you said but rather act in accordance with all the stories you tell yourself throughout the course of your life.
You look to her for closure? Her actions and words dictate your life? That is attachment and will lead you to this emotional, illogical spiral again.
When you feel the blood boiling today and tomorrow, pause and realize that your perspective is out of whack. Keep your thoughts and emotions in check. Get through these days knowing that even if you have been wronged that you are likely making a bigger deal out of it than you need to. Weigh each decision and realize what is important in your life. You don't need to let her dictate your happiness. I don't think God or Nature intended on you following her lead. You find your own way and do the right thing.
Scott, on IC. Do not settle for an IC that isn't working for you. We will shop around for a dog groomer or an auto shop, but for some reason people feel that they are obligated to an IC even if the IC isn't all that great. My advice, find a new IC. There are plenty out there.
As far as dating, it just isn't fair to the other person that you haven't dealt with the emotional baggage related to your soon-to-be failed marriage. You are young. You have plenty of time. It would be a shame for you to meet someone that normally would be a great match for you, only to have the R poisoned by those unresolved feelings and emotional baggage. Broken attracts broken, so unless you do the work on yourself post-D, you likely won't be attracted high-quality potentials.
And I know you are conning yourself into the "But, I would like to find a couple of women to be able to go out with from time to time." viewpoint. That is crap. The truth is that you have a few things going on underneath. First, you want to find your value and validation in being desired by other women. Second, you are afraid to be alone. Third, you want to show that low-down, no-good WAW just how quickly you can rebound with other prospects. And fourth, you think you have to have sex.
Those reasons are all horrible reasons to date. Maybe your world view is different than mine, but to me dating is to try to find a suitable long-term partner. A spouse. I've never understood the casual dating just to go out and have fun, and sleep with someone with no commitment. But that is just me. As I said before, it is your life, you get to choose what you do regardless of what others say, especially strangers on the internet.
Hang in there Scott. Onward and upward.
And I'm not going to jump into a LTR anytime soon. But, I would like to find a couple of women to be able to go out with from time to time. And CW is probably right, I'm probably using it to mask my grief - I think it has more to do with re-establishing my confidence. Either way, I do think it would be fun.
This all sounds good in theory but I have been on many dates since my D and I think every single girl was looking for a relationship. They don't want to be your from time to time girl.
I'm not sure that I seem the harm in it, other than it makes a road back to marriage more unlikely.
I disagree. You are not likely to reconcile until you both have had other relationships.
Maybe your world view is different than mine, but to me dating is to try to find a suitable long-term partner. A spouse. I've never understood the casual dating just to go out and have fun, and sleep with someone with no commitment. But that is just me. As I said before, it is your life, you get to choose what you do regardless of what others say, especially strangers on the internet.
The best part is you have strangers on the internet sharing many different ideas, giving you more things to consider as you make these choices.
I had to question every belief I had. I challenged my world view. Wrapping my head around being a dedicated husband to being a single man. Learning new attractive behaviors.
I believe one of the steps in the process before dating is just interacting with many women. ONS could happen during this phase. Looking into your core values, should a married man be dating? When are you single again? The day your wife had sex with someone else? After the papers are signed? Each of us view this different. You make your choice and live with the consequences of that choice.
Right now, your life is complicated dealing with one woman. Do you want more women in your life to make it even more complicated right now?
Do you understand your role in the breakdown of your marriage? Do you understand how your behavior contributed? Have you changed your behavior? Are you interacting differently with your wife? Does she see the change? does she respect you more?