HI everyone.
I'm devastated.
She moved out in September and we share 50/50 custody of a 2 yr old baby girl.
We slowly started to spend more time together during exchanges.
I [censored] up last week. I used sex as a way of seeing if she was truly back in again. I was angry.
I used the word "child support" for the first time in a Venmo message. I only wanted to communicate by email for a fw days. When I realized how I was feeling I owned it all and apologized.
She just told me things are final. She is moving on. I feel she's done.
I want to ask - is there hope I can do anything and I'm also afraid of someone saying NO.
How do I stay open to a future yet protective of my heart.
How do I move forward from today?
I wrote her this email and would love anyone's thoughts on it or anything else.
Lish -
My hope is that this email is something at some point you can visit to
I want to repeat and share once again that I see your hurt.
You spoke about your #1 value. I've known that, we had so much and what you were bringing and how you were shaping our time was enough for me - apple orchards, family walks, family breakfasts. I shared a lot this morning about my view on it, and I want you to know, it is ever so apparent how important it is to you and how much I am aligned and wanting it as well.
You mentioned it took me 6 days. I imagine you may have felt abandoned and the pattern was repeating. I'm sorry. I can see and hear the hurt and as soon as you said it I knew what it meant. I imagine it must have been painful, perhaps angry and sad. It brings me pause to think about how that could have made you feel. I didn't want to blame you for anything, I wanted to come to you with love, that which you deserve. Internally I was dealing with my own process and the failure to meet my exam deadline, a broken computer which I drove around all day on Sunday trying to buy a new one and repairing what looked like a failing deal with my new job. I took Monday to compose my thoughts and Tuesday to send it. I know my apology could be too late, I see where I could have just brought this all up in a more vulnerable way, I just didn't think it was something you wanted or thought was appropriate.
I'm sorry about the venmo message - I can see how hurtful, severing and perhaps cuel that could have felt.
I'm sorry that you felt sex was a contngentcey. I wanted my honesty to show that I was the problem. On Thursday and Friday I was not able to access the truth. You expressed so much sadness and the frustrations about us not being as physical as you need and that you want to feel desired. I really [censored] this up and I wanted to acknowledge to you my shortcomings and my ownership and how I was short-sided. You deserve the truth and I also could have realized a snuggle on the couch could have been enough.
Gosh Lish, how that really could have hurt you.....
Your message on New Year's day so warmed my heart despite everything I was feeling. i was stuck, I wanted you to secretly come over and surprise me. You deserved a man that night.
I heard and read about how you feel about trying - You feel hurt and done. I respect that you want to grow now by yourself and separately. It was my mistake to not stay with February 1st, I wanted you and it was too soon. I am sticking up for the relationship and what was a clear break in September and the past 4 months that have followed have shown our growth together.
Family dinners, dance parties. Gentle conversations, more of me which is what you wanted. Family.
In my own experience this week I have looked inside and seen your sensitivity, your innocence and delicacy - and the word I've always used, kindness. I also see some of my disconnection and blindness. I will honor that vision of you and will look at you with those eyes. I can fathom that the way you feel is worse than I do right now.
Take your time. I am building a container and a loving kind presence for us. I ask, don't throw this away.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
J,
First sorry you’re here.
Second do not send that email.
Third breathe and tell us more of your story including ages and how long you’ve been together.
There is hope if you’re patient.
Send that email if you want to push her further away.
Need to hear more about your story.
There is hope and there isn't at the same time.
Conquer your fears. After my sitch I'm not scared of anything.
Can you do a real 180 and let go of your fear, let go of the pain, and prepare for a new life?
Hi JHopeful,
Long wordy messages don't help. Drop the e-mail. Tell us more about your situation.
PS - I never bothered to read my ex-wife's long, wordy e-mails even 10 years later and don't plan to.
She doesn't want to hear all that. It will probably just make her upset and resentful. She also won't believe any of it.
Take the time to do the suggested reading in the welcome message. This journey is mostly about you at this point.
Take a step back and breathe. It is going to be OK.
By all means, DO NOT SEND THAT EMAIL. LBSs always think that long, heartfelt messages will win back their WAS. You are falling back to behaviors that won her over during dating, those tactics will not work to win her back.
I agree with others, your OP is very scattered, it is obvious you are freaking out. Calm down, you are going to be fine no matter what. Please give some more details about your situation and the collective experience of the posters that have been through it can help you.
Hi JHopeful,
Long wordy messages don't help. Drop the e-mail. Tell us more about your situation.
PS - I never bothered to read my ex-wife's long, wordy e-mails even 10 years later and don't plan to.
In my first situation with my W back in 2005, I would often send her long, emotional, very deeply thought out emails. I found out years later that she didn't even read most of them, at least not as carefully as I composed them. This is great insight, CW.
I used sex as a way of seeing if she was truly back in again.
If you've gotten to the point of BD, then she's not coming back for a long time. I think this is the one concept that LBS struggle the most with- time. There are no quick fixes, the sooner you realize that then the smoother this will go.
I used the word "child support" for the first time in a Venmo message. I only wanted to communicate by email for a fw days. When I realized how I was feeling I owned it all and apologized.
Pull back and be quiet. LBSs are masters of saying all the wrong things and novices at shutting up. Be the opposite.
She just told me things are final. She is moving on. I feel she's done.
She thinks she's done right now. She will probably think that for months. After that, who knows? You'd be amazed at the turnarounds that have happened against seemingly impossible odds.
I want to ask - is there hope I can do anything and I'm also afraid of someone saying NO.
There's always hope. Again, don't worry about what she says now. It's only a reflection of her current feelings, and they may very well change.
How do I move forward from today?
Read DR. Read all the links Cadet posted. Then read it all again. Read other sitches. Post more. Your first post doesn't make a lot of sense. Collect your thoughts and post in more detail.
I wrote her this email and would love anyone's thoughts on it or anything else.
Well everyone else already told you not to send it. They are absolutely correct. WAS's feel like they're under a lot of pressure. A letter and/ or relationship talks are even more pressure. You want to remove all pressure.
Don't take the following personally. This is the beginning of your education into how WAS's read and perceive things, I am showing you how she is going to interpret your comments in her current WAS mindset:
I want to repeat and share once again that I see your hurt.
Talk is cheap. She won't believe anything you say/ write. You've got to show her change through ACTIONS. And even then she will think they are "tricks" to get her back. So she needs to see consistent change over a long period of time.
You spoke about your #1 value. I've known that, we had so much and what you were bringing and how you were shaping our time was enough for me - apple orchards, family walks, family breakfasts. I shared a lot this morning about my view on it, and I want you to know, it is ever so apparent how important it is to you and how much I am aligned and wanting it as well.
She's done with the R, the LAST thing you want to do is bring up old romantic stuff or drag out a photo album to show her how happy she was and how she should want all that back. IT WILL ONLY DRIVE HER FARTHER AWAY. Right now she's rewriting history, all of those warm fuzzy memories you have she will NOT have. If you say something like "but you were so happy then" she'll say she was faking it. And she really believes her rewritten history. So don't even go there.
I imagine you may have felt abandoned and the pattern was repeating.
Read everything you can on listening and validation skills. Don't ever tell someone what they feel! Ever! You can ask someone what they feel or felt, but if you tell them what YOU think they felt then they'll just think "he never listens and he always just makes assumptions."
Internally I was dealing with my own process and the failure to meet my exam deadline, a broken computer which I drove around all day on Sunday trying to buy a new one and repairing what looked like a failing deal with my new job.
Don't try to make conversations about you. She won't care. It just sounds like lame excuses to her.
I see where I could have just brought this all up in a more vulnerable way
Do you seriously think this is appropriate for a letter????? I mean how ironic that you are talking about how you could have handled this in a better "more vulnerable" way, and you're delivering that message in the cold, uncaring format of an email, perhaps the least vulnerable possible communication format. Right? Vulnerable would be opening up in person. The time for that has passed though, so table it for now.
i was stuck, I wanted you to secretly come over and surprise me. You deserved a man that night.
After you read DR, read No More Mister Nice Guy. What you describe here is a "covert contract" and they are extremely harmful for relationships. You need to learn about them and the harm they cause so you can be mindful of not allowing it to happen in the future.
Anyway you get the point. That email is saying all the wrong things at the worst possible time. If you feel the need to write things like this then by all means do so and post them here. But do not send them to your W. There may have been a time when a letter like this would have welcomed by her and mattered to her. That time is past. Now she will find fault in everything you say.
Thank you everyone. I am thankful for all of the responses and support.
I did not send that email I had a panic attack last night. I have been talking with a few professionals throughout the past 18hrs.
A quick 2 questions:
Can someone help me understand the acronyms or is there a table I can look at?
and also, where do I get a copy of the book?
(Sorry, I am pretty disorientated right now and just trying to get things together as I start a new job on Monday that I am excited about and have my daughter all weekend. I appreciate the support everyone. I am so glad I posted. I didn't expect any responses and I am taken back.)
I will share my story either tonight or tomorrow but here is a summary:
I short, we met on a bus in Mexico 4 years ago. Me (now 47 / her now 36). Long distance dated for a year. She moved out to CO after a year. We got pregnant 6 months later in July of 2018.
We share a 2 year old together so I will be seeing her at least 4 times a week and later today in 4 hours for the first time in a week and since the breakup yesterday.
This past year and a half has been really rough. Obviously Covid hasn't helped - she seems to discount that. More later either tonight or tomorrow.
I wanted to share that based on everyones' advice I may have screwed up again.
I was talking with a friend earlier today and the thoughts came up with - maybe I should own everything? and tell her no pressure to respond.
So I called her and this is what I said:
"There is no pressure to respond and I just want you to know that I screwed up and said and did some things that I shouldn't have done.
We were building something new and special over the past 6 weeks and I know we can continue building that.
Take your time, I think this is good for us. Just please don't through this away. And there is no pressure to respond now. If/when you are open to talking about this know that I am here to have the conversation."
She replied:
"Joe, you did nothing wrong, I'm just not in love. You deserve someone who loves you and so do I"
(she has said this to me back in November.)
I replied:
"Lish, I hear and respect what you are saying. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only sharing my own opinion and also speaking up for the relationship.
I am confused, you wrote a beautiful letter to me 6 weeks ago that said you love me and wanted to come back and be more for me.
On new years eve you sent me a beautiful text message about how we met and that you love me.
We had a good thing that we were both contributing to, cultivating our new fire together. I felt it and believe it was growing between us.
I know I [censored] up. You don't need to say anything, I'm not expecting a response. If/when you'd like to talk know that I am here."
I can't recall if she said "ok" or some other short goodbye.
(Sorry I just found the links to my first 2 questions)
JH, reread AnotherStander's post in response to you for all the reasons why that conversation was a mistake. You screwed up, but don't worry, everyone here has made the same mistakes. The earlier you can stop making these mistakes, the better.
Also, I'd suggest not using you and your W's names in your posts.
Go find the books on Amazon (or similar).
I also strongly recommend the book Love Must be Tough. I listened to it on audio book, you can do that in a few days easily.
Please provide a story of what happened and what has been the dynamics since she moved out. It will help everyone understand and give you better advice.
You should not have made that call, especially since its months since she moved out.
Hi,
The call was a mistake and probably reduces your chances--but it wasn't as bad as the letter imho. I'm glad you didn't send the letter, recovered from your panic attack, and are up to posting again.
I just want you to know that I screwed up and said and did some things that I shouldn't have done.
She replied:
"Joe, you did nothing wrong, I'm just not in love. You deserve someone who loves you and so do I"
(she has said this to me back in November.)
I replied:
"Lish, I hear and respect what you are saying. I am not trying to convince you of anything.
I know I [censored] up.
I'm baffled. You said you goofed. She told you that you didn't. You said you hear and respect what she's saying but keep insist you goofed. So, what was this goof you feel ended things?
I [censored] up last week. I used sex as a way of seeing if she was truly back in again. I was angry... I'm sorry that you felt sex was a contngentcey.
What did you do? I'm not sure if you asked her for sex, while in a kiss you put your hands places in sensitive spots to encourage it, or you actually convinced her to have sex when she wasn't into it. I'm being blunt. We can give better advice if we understand what's really going on in your relationship and breakup.
She moved out in September and we share 50/50 custody of a 2 yr old baby girl.
Why did she move out in the first place?
Start by reading Sandi’s rules.
(Thank you for the replies)
I'll follow up with more of the backstory and respond the messages this weekend. Until then I wouldn't mind any feedback. I very much appreciate the help and since things are moving quickly right now I'd like to just keep this thread up to date.
Since my phone call with her yesterday she had drinks with a mutual friend last night who is aware of everything. I received this email late last night thereafter:
Hey,
I wanted to acknowledge that this is hard for you. I wanted to be softer, but I didn’t know how to be clear and soft. I want to be kind and respectful in communication, and in our relationship as coparents always. I want you to know I’m not angry at you. I am listening to my intuition, and it has only gotten louder over the last few months. I know this is truth for me- separating is true. Having a beautiful family in two homes is true. And that I deeply care about you is true.
Anything I can do to make this easier for you, I am open to. I know this is an extremely stressful time in your life, and you’re starting a big new chapter. I’m so proud of you and your drive and how hard you’ve been working toward this. I also know that you need few distractions over the coming weeks. If I can help in any way, please let me know.
Enjoy your weekend with (our 2 yr old).
XXXX
I spent last night talking with some friends to get a woman's perspective and they all believe she is confused and needs her space.
(Less than 2 weeks ago she said she loves me and wants to work on herself to meet me. A month ago she said that and more, including her vision of us together)
Meanwhile, I read this email and hear both sides of what she is saying and I'm 100% wrecked.
J,
So you have to remember that this is how she feels right now and her feelings may change in time.
Reading the email it’s clear she doesn’t want to hurt you and doesn’t hate you.
Your friends are wise to tell you to give her space and more space then she can even imagine.
Keep posting.
Lots of space! This is LRT and NC.
I can understand that was a tough read for you. Pick yourself up and start moving forward. GAL as much as you can!
It is good that she recognizes your side but she is basically telling you what you should feel and what you need which personally would p!s me off.
Don’t answer her at all.
Also, as mentioned above, if you haven’t yet. Read sandis rules over and over. Memorize them and live by them.
Dude. Back up. Give her ALL THE SPACE. The more attention you pour on her the more she is going to back away.
It seems like she doesn't have any malice or ill will towards you now. That's very good.
Back off. No wordiness. Be polite. Be respectful. But be neutral. No talk of love or anything like that. Be business like. End emails with "thanks" but never "love" or even "take care".
The only chance you have really, is to ditch her and the idea of being with her. You have to go become the best you that you can be. It's the GAL thing. The LRT. Get in the mindset that you are starting a new chapter of your life and you're making this new chapter the best one yet.
Oh and never ever tell her about what you're doing to see if things are "working". That cancels progress. Treat her like a Co worker from here on out.
You are not in control of her heart, she is.
As my child sleeps I have a few quick questions:
How do I handle what's left of her belongings in the house" - it's minor things, like a stereo, some cups, a chair and a few boxes.
We share a child, what dynamics are helpful for me to know?
We share a child together and see each other sometimes 5-6 times a week. How do I manage those visits? Both my inner world and interacting with her?
If she texts me pictures of Poppy how do I handle that?
What do I do with the letters and keep sakes?
I am starting to get the message that I too need to know, feel and act like it's done and over.
I ordered the book and started reading Sandy's rules.
-Thanks so much everyone.
J
How do I handle what's left of her belongings in the house" - it's minor things, like a stereo, some cups, a chair and a few boxes.
Must you do something with them?
I would suggest taking a deep breath (or 10!) and try to focus on what you must do. A lot of times in the beginning you can wear yourself out thinking that you need to "do something!" whether it's keepsakes or stereos.
If/when she asks about them, you can decide. If you need them out of sight, pack them up nicely and put them in a closet or something. But if you don't need to do anything, don't. Conserve your energy for your GAL and your little one.
We share a child, what dynamics are helpful for me to know?
Be the best parent you possibly can. Engage with her and focus solely on her. Don't send pics to your W. Don't text funny things she does, just enjoy her and love her up. She needs you to be a rock.
We share a child together and see each other sometimes 5-6 times a week. How do I manage those visits? Both my inner world and interacting with her?
Breath before the visit. Don't hug/kiss or gush. Just be friendly and brief with the exchanges. Pretend you are meeting your accountant. If you use these trade offs as a way to chat/inquire etc. W will be put off.
Also - look amazing but don't go crazy lol
If she texts me pictures of P how do I handle that?
You can say thank you or not. If she asks a question, answer, but give her SPACE. Let her come to you, but do not, under any circumstances - reach out to her.
What do I do with the letters and keep sakes?
See above #1. I put mine in a box until I was ready to deal with them. They are in storage. I might never get them out. But do NOT go through them right now. No letters, photos etc. Right now focus on today and only today. Will help with detaching.
I am starting to get the message that I too need to know, feel and act like it's done and over.
Yes. You need to realize that she is done. That might change, but right now, she is done (according to her). So you act as if. As if you are fine no matter what. As if you are moving forward with your life. As if you have a life. (If you don't, get one. (smile) GAL (get a life) is key!
I ordered the book and started reading Sandy's rules.
This will help you a great deal. Also read all of the newcomers links that Job posted and read here.
Reading your posts reminds me of where I was in the early days. It feels overwhelming, so focus on what you MUST do. Try not to think too far out in the future.
You will get through this.
I was about to reply, but great answers by 97Hope! Seconded.
Letters and keepsakes go in a box that you don't open for a long time.
When you open the box it should either be because you have reconciled, or because you have healed and it's time to decide what to do with it. After you have healed, it will no longer hurt seeing the items.
I literally just found my marriage keepsakes while cleaning out a box last night. It's been about 3 years now. I tossed it all in the trash.
Hi JHopeful, a reminder to tell us more about your "goof up" and the original reason for the separation. If you're willing to share--I realize being open isn't always easy even on an anonymous Internet forum--these may be ripe with potential 180s to save your marriage and improve how you relate to others.
I literally just found my marriage keepsakes while cleaning out a box last night. It's been about 3 years now. I tossed it all in the trash.
Mine's been in a box in the garage for 10yrs. Someday! I have bigger boxes to clear out first. (:
Hi Joe, welcome to the community. Can you give us your wife's reason for leaving in September?
Taking all the responsibility of the breakdown in the MR is not the formula for reconciliation. Unfortunately, some men think it will save time and bypass bringing up various accounts if he simply apologizes for everything & anything. It may have worked in times past when she was sullen over something you were completely in the dark about........but this is not one of those times.
Probably the most difficult task for you will be to stop trying to invoke conversations. You seem to rely on talking as your go-to method of fixing a relationship. It's a natural reaction from a fearful spouse who has been bombed. However, as others have warned, it is the opposite action of what you need to do.
Stop telling her that you are going to take up for the relationship. It will only make her tighten her determination to end the M.
How should you interact? Think of yourself as a customer in a store who has gathered his items to purchase. You go to the checkout lane to make the transaction with the checkout clerk. Your wife is the checkout clerk. The two of you might say a few words, but nothing personal. You keep it business-like. You keep it short, and you leave. You don't ask personal questions, try to get to know her better, or spend more time with her. Nothing about the encounter is personal. That's how you have to deal with your W at this time.
Don't confuse this with anger, coldness, sullen, etc. Be none of those things. Just don't interact by personal questions and statements.
I [censored] up last week. I used sex as a way of seeing if she was truly back in again. I was angry.
Big mistake! Don't test her to see if she is truly back.......and certainly not with sex. You'll learn more about this as we go along. This is a long process, so there's no use in thinking of testing her. Just get that out of your mind.
I used the word "child support" for the first time in a Venmo message. I only wanted to communicate by email for a fw days. When I realized how I was feeling I owned it all and apologized.
I'm not sure what this means, but stop apologizing for
everything. Over-apologizing is very unattractive on a man. I doubt she's leaving b/c you didn't apologize enough during the M. And, if you didn't apologize enough.......you can't make up for it now. You can't talk her back. You can't apologize her back. If there was some specific thing you did that tore the MR apart (according to her explanation for leaving), then you can apologize for it and move on.
I want to ask - is there hope I can do anything and I'm also afraid of someone saying NO.
Not in the sense you are thinking that
doing something will get her to come back. It's that mindset that causes the LBS to pressure the WAS. The first step is accepting the fact she doesn't want to be in a MR with you. So, instead of pursuing her, you leave her alone.
How do I stay open to a future yet protective of my heart.
How do I move forward from today?
I wrote her this email and would love anyone's thoughts on it or anything else.
First, you stop doing things that expose your heart, like writing those emails. Stop putting her in a position where she has to make a decision to reject you. You are pressuring her! Stop looking at old letters & cards that rip your heart. Don't watch sad movies, or listen to sad songs. You have to purposely have better days. Read self improvement books, watch motivational videos, get plenty of exercise, and fill up the calendar with GAL activities, and stay busy. I can't say this strong enough, that GAL is key! Your health is priority.
You move forward by building your life around your D2 and yourself. Currently, it doesn't include your W and/or a MR. You find ways to get a new life apart from the old one. You focus on yourself, while giving space and time to your W. Space means a time void of you. No calls, emails, photos, social media, dropping by, meet ups, etc. It's as if you dropped off the planet.
My hope is that this email is something at some point you can visit to
This is an example of invading her space. You meant well, but it is emotional pressure on her.
Don't try to be her BFF, swap photos, have late night chats, etc. Co-parenting doesn't mean you use D2 as a tool to get closer to your spouse.
Joe, I hope you haven't left us. Let us hear from you.
Joe, I hope you haven't left us. Let us hear from you.
Hi everyone. It's been a up and down past few weeks.
I have started a new job that I love and could prove to her very lucrative.
My life was shaping up and then last weekend while dropping our daughter off she asked to for me to come in talk - I declined and said I wanted to wait until my class was done in 2 weeks. She started to cry. I took that as her having feelings for me.
As it turns out she wanted to discuss going to a mediator to make sure the custody of our child was kept civil and pleasant. I told her sure, I just need another week or 2 because I'm busy with my new job training. She was completely fine with that.
I now think the tears were related to me sometimes pushing things off from time to time.
Needless to say I let my thoughts and emotions get involved and imagine things.
Tonight I'm wrecked. She asked for the remaining of her furniture back, which I would rather do versus her coming into my house.
I'm tempted to talk to her and clarify that this is a step she wants to take.
Practicing restraint.
A continuation on my last post from this evening.
I brought over her last heavy piece of furniture and we started talking.
HER:
She said our entire relationship we played out an aAnxious / Avoidant dynamic. She has traced it through the entirety of the relationship. She felt like she had to show me that in fact I did love her.
She hasn't been happy since last February.
She has left the relationship.
She doesn't want to be in a relationship where she has to convince herself that she loves someone, which is what she feels like she's been doing.
She feels like our entire relationship has been the anxious / avoidant pattern
She doesn't see us getting back together ever. She just wants to focus on being good parents.
During different parts of the conversation she said it's over and doesn't see us ever getting back, she has completely left the relationship.
We haven't broken our patterns despite trying and trying even up to 3 weeks ago.
She said we tried so hard for so long.
ME:
I repeated back most of her comments and did my very best to validate them.
I told her that it's a good thing that the previous relationship is over.
And that this space is good for us right now.
And that I love seeing everything sees doing with her life.
That I am creating more space in my life for me and I'm beginning to hold more space for someone else.
I mentioned that I know these are just words but my actions will speak.
As I was leaving I said again, that relationship is over, I feel like it's worth it to plant a seed and see where we are in the future.
It looked like she wanted to say "No" again but didn't want to hurt me.
A woman friend gave me 2 pieces of advice on my way over to her house:
"High engagement and low attachment."
and
"If you do things as a family and she sees how much fun it is with you then she'll want more of that"
_________
MORE BACKSTORY
To answer the question why she moved out in September:
We had a rough year and a half leading up to that point.
I was getting depressed due to the pressures of being the sole provider. In an effort to save the income I took a advocacy role that left me feeling more an more angry. I had a rare knee condition which left me void of any of my real regulation practices.
We went to therapy and didn't have such a great therapist. We weren't communicating well at all.
Covid happened and I lost all my income.
She went back to work as a nurse working 2 12hr shifts a week.
I took a consulting position that ended up blowing up due to the 2 partners fighting. I got angry and even more depressed.
(important to note: I had been depressed before and was able to recover once I went on meds. I am someone that has done a lot of work on himself, before this relationship I was single for 10 years. So I was a bit of a novice when it comes to relationships.)
She and I had grown resentful. The joy was gone.
We had a big fight in August, my pattern was I would retreat. I took a solo trip, I felt energized.
When I came back she said she wanted to leave to have some space for herself to meditate, sew and so forth. We lived in a 1100 house and I work from home so we were around each other all the time.
She actually changed her mind twice on moving out only to finally move out Nov 1.
I went back on meds shortly after.
She saw the changes I was making and made a comment to a mutual friend, "wow Joe is really done a 180 and he's crushing it, I want a piece of that!"
We spent Thanksgiving together as a family and things started to become really nice and tender. She said she wanted till February to see where we stand. I mentioned I wasn't sure if I could wait.
She replied in a letter a few days later saying how she hadn't left the relationship and sees us in the future living in a sunlit home. I avoided commenting in part because I was scared but also because I wasn't sure how things could change and wasn't sure I trusted it.
We spent Christmas together and shortly thereafter I was really stressed over trying to cram a test in before starting my new job. I wasn't sleeping and we had a big fight right around New Years.
The anxious avoidant patterns played out continuously.
Earlier today I happen to see photos of the first 2 years of our relationship there was a lot of joy.
_______________
So back to this evening I didn't follow the Sandi rules tonight.
At the moment we are going on a hike this Saturday as a family.
A friend told me tonight that I should really just let it 100% end and move on and focus on my self and learn from my mistakes and who do I want to become.
And I'm heartbroken.
Sorry everyone - I forgot to add these details to the origins of our story.
_________
Back story:
Me 47 - grew up in NYC, ambitious, kind, traveled, been doing personal work for 15+ longest relationship was only 1.5yrs.
Her 36 - small town in upstate NY, nurse, kind, family orientated. She was married for 10 years and got divorced aprox 2 years ago - she said the relationship was over about a year before that. She left him and may have gone on dates or slept with someone before the divorce was final. Her ex shamed her all across town. More on him later
We met on a bus in Mexico in Jan 20017. I was attracted to her beauty. When we got off the bus I noticed right away she was about 5'' taller than me. While out our first night I thought, wow, even if we don't become intimate this is a beautiful kind, soft woman. She was traveling with her friend and we all had a wonder time over the past 5 days. We became intimate on the last few nights. She cried and described that she'd hadn't had that kind of experience before. I became drawn to all of her. She left, I was on extended holiday.
When I returned back to the US in march we started long distance dating. It was fun and light. We met in different places across the country about 5 times. Then in September she told me that she wanted to move to Colorado to be together. At first I was apprehensive and told her I needed to think about that. Then after some thought I said yes.
She moved out in January2018 and within 2 weeks of moving here she had a back condition flare up pretty badly. Bed ridden for 3days I was making bed pans out of cut paper towel rolls. Finally we called the ambulance and she underwent surgery. I took care of her for about 2 months, It was overwhelmed by the responsibility - all told that seemed to become a trend.
She had repeated problems all the way through our relationship even up to today. They stem from neglecting her back pain while at work and creating bungling discs.
She rebounded in April, we had a small fight or 2 before we found out that we were pregnant in July of that year. Both of us were at first scared but we decided it was something we both wanted.
I was in shock for about 3 weeks. My income was not steady and I felt like there was still a lot I didn't know about her.
We moved in together in Sept of 2018 it was a construction zone as I was remodeling a place. It stressed us both out for a few months.
I had a rare knee condition flare up and began seeing doctors in Sept 2018. It took me 7 surgeons and 3 surgeries to find out what was really happening. It weighed on me heavily, I grew depressed.
One evening I recall mentioning something to her about a perspective I was having, in other words, I was trying to share a trigger, something “about me” and either I mis-spoke or she took it personal. I have learned a technique to say this and it felt like she had never heard someone speak this way before.
We went to a Tony Robbins Date With Destiny workshop. I staffed it, she attended. At the end, of the workshop the person writes a love letter to their partner. When she gave it to me I froze. I typically do savor things and wait for the right moment - but what had started to become clear to me was 2 things. I did feel smothered by her, I felt a lot of obligation from the day she arrived. I loved her but yet there was still this feeling I couldn’t put my finger on, I felt like there had to be something more to her - or she was really just so simple. Her lightness and kindness was carrying me and I thought it was enough for me.
Leading up to Poppy's brith I stopped having sex with her. I think the stress got to me. Unfortunately our communication wasn’t strong enough. Additionally she never made any real advances towards me.
I did feel like I was living in Josh’s shadow. She often would say that I was controlling, her BF told me once that she felt that she never worked through that relationship.
__________
I just spoke with a friend who gave me some words of personal encouragement and I'm talking with a friend tonight who's partner left him and then came back after 4 months.
I'm realizing I'm posting out of order.
This morning we were texting and she wanted to get off deed on a property we were both on. She wanted to qualify to buy a house that price is protected by affordable housing laws here in Boulder.
She was discouraged that she thought she did't qualify.
I started to removal of her on deed and began to poke around about why she thought she didn't qualify. I did this because I want to make sure that she stays close to home and in Boulder
PLUS
I went down the rabbit hole of high engagement low expectations and to be a knight in shining armor.
I did in fact find out that she does qualify. I sent her a text message "You qualify" a few hours ago and didn't hear back yet.
Again, this was all this morning.
Grateful and looking forward to responses.
-Joe
I'll admit, I am lost. All I can tell you is that pursuit and pressure do not work. Every time you are tempted to do something related to her, ask yourself: "Is this even remotely pursuit and/or pressure?" If it is then do not do it. You need to back way off, give her time and space, and maybe even let her miss you a bit. So many LBSs do not understand the power of absence and being missed.
You are too focused on her. You cannot nice her back. No matter how many times you save her. You have to focus on you, GAL, self-improve and detach. That is your mission. Stop trying to save your marriage. That may be the only way to save it. (I forget if you are married or not. If not replace the word marriage with relationship.)
Hi Steve - thanks for your reply.
"Remotely pursuit or pressure" -where does that come from?
(We are not married / just partners)
Happy to explain more if that is helpful.
Otherwise "GAL, self-improve and detach"
How does work out being that we do child exchanges multiple times a week?
"So many LBSs do not understand the power of absence and being missed."
Thanks Steve.
Otherwise "GAL, self-improve and detach"
How does work out being that we do child exchanges multiple times a week?
"So many LBSs do not understand the power of absence and being missed."
I’m not sure I understand your question. I exchanged kids with my ex-wife Monday.. she opened the door for the kids, smiled and waved at me, and shut the door. I exchanged kids with my ex-wife Wednesday. We spent 30 seconds appreciating my son’s art project before parting ways. Hand-offs are only an excuse for chit-chat if you want them to be.
J-Hope, how old are your children?
I have recently just changed handover from Sunday afternoons to Monday. This means all our handovers are done through daycare/school. I don't have to see her at all anymore. This works great for me. At first I was desperate to keep these Sundays because, like I think where you are at right now, I wanted a chance to show her how i was changing. But guess what...she didn't care, and it would leave me feeling like sh!t.
My daughter is about to turn 2.
"This means all our handovers are done through daycare/school. I don't have to see her at all anymore."
- I'm not sure how to really understand this nor imagine I could do this..... it's heart breaking but maybe needed"
" At first I was desperate to keep these Sundays because, like I think where you are at right now, I wanted a chance to show her how i was changing. But guess what...she didn't care, and it would leave me feeling like sh!t."
- TBH the blow to my heart reading this is really hard......I can see how this is
I'm not sure how to really understand this nor imagine I could do this..... it's heart breaking but maybe needed
Heart breaking indeed JH, but reality all the same. I get it JH, my STBXW and I have shared countless moments of real closeness over our 14 years, so the thought of not seeing this person anymore is very sad, but very necessary (for me anyway). At least until you are in a place where these interactions won't affect you anymore, which for me at least, could me many more months.
My daughter is about to turn 2.
"This means all our handovers are done through daycare/school. I don't have to see her at all anymore."
- I'm not sure how to really understand this nor imagine I could do this..... it's heart breaking but maybe needed"
" At first I was desperate to keep these Sundays because, like I think where you are at right now, I wanted a chance to show her how i was changing. But guess what...she didn't care, and it would leave me feeling like sh!t."
- TBH the blow to my heart reading this is really hard......I can see how this is
Jhopeful, you can do what feels natural, what is instinctual, and you can continue to push her further away.
Or you can DB! Which is to remove all pressure and pursuit. Back off and leave her alone. Be busy (GAL!). Continue to work on yourself and improve! And detach emotionally from her.
As far as child exchanges. Make them quick and as business like as possible. Have places to go, people to see, things to do. Make the exchange. Tell her you are in a hurry, and go. Don't say hi. Don't say bye. Just make the exchange. Avoid conversation, and get out of there. OB is right. Too many LBSs (I know you aren't married but it is the same concept) try to use things like child exchanges as a chance to interact with their WAS. Interaction is killing you at this point. The less interaction the better.
Joe, I hope you haven't left us. Let us hear from you.
Hi Sandi, I hope the out of order posts didn't confuse you and others.
I'm at the point where I'm able to purge and return back a number of her items. There is still more however I'm just going about this at a pace that feels good. I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on this letter?
(Again we share a 2yr old so keeping a healthy communication I think is important to me)
Hi.
While going through the house I’ve been coming across things that I believe are yours. I thought it would be best to start returning them to you. In the event some of these things are not yours feel free to gift them or dispose of them. Please know I’m not been vindictive I’m solely respecting your belongings as well as this is part of my process. As much as I love your taste and style passing these back to you now is the healthy thing.
-(me)
How about:
I have boxed some things I think are yours. Let me know if you would like to pick them up.
I'm at the point where I'm able to purge and return back a number of her items. There is still more however I'm just going about this at a pace that feels good. I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on this letter?
(Again we share a 2yr old so keeping a healthy communication I think is important to me)
Hi.
While going through the house I’ve been coming across things that I believe are yours. I thought it would be best to start returning them to you. In the event some of these things are not yours feel free to gift them or dispose of them. Please know I’m not been vindictive I’m solely respecting your belongings as well as this is part of my process. As much as I love your taste and style passing these back to you now is the healthy thing.
-(me)
I would leave that out. I think as little contact as possible is the best route, but if you must send a letter be as brief as possible.
My best advice - pack it away and put it out of sight and don't mention it unless asked.
When X moved out I packed his things away (very nicely, even tissue wrapped some things lol) and put them in a closet. I recommend that. Wait for her to ask for her things unless space is an issue.
X came to me at some point, and I was able to say - all of your things from MBR are packed away in the closet. (He ended up with the home so they just stayed there until I moved out).
I don't regret that choice.
Stay on your journey, leave her to hers. Don't talk to her about your journey, let her see with her own eyes, or not. You are just doing what YOU need to do to move forward.
IMO - that is a good step for you!!
So the things I've been purging are things that she will notice that are gone off the walls and such. I should just let her notice that they are gone when she comes to pick up my daughter and then wait for her ask? And would that be instead of sending her the edited message you proposed. I kind of like your proposal - and then let her come and pick them up whenever she wants.
YES! Let her notice and ask. Any contact initiated by you could seem as pursuit.
If/when she asks - a simple - I put it in the closet. And then let her know 2 days/times you will be available.
W: Where's my stuff?/What did you do with my things?/WTF?? My stuff!!!???
H: I packed it up. I am free Monday between 11-12 or Tuesday between 4-6.
or even better...
H: I packed it up. I can leave it on the porch, let me know if you would like to come by on Monday or Tuesday.
Remember - you are busy!! GALing and kids and your new exciting life.
You don't put anything in her court. You aren't available last minute, or at her leisure. And you do NOT need or want an excuse to see her. You are moving forward in a positive direction. : )
Great suggested edit by 97Hope.
Any written communication should just be the facts. No feelings.
Thanks everyone.
Here's a number of updates that I would love feedback on.
1) Over the course of the week she sent texted me a message saying "did you see my jacket omg Instagram?" - I said I hadn't because I haven't been on in weeks. She sent me picture of it and I gave her some praise and positive feedback. She listed it to sell on line and it sold within 12 hours and sent me a message to tell me. I asked her how it felt and she said "pretty awesome"
We exchanged some light texts with pictures of our daughter on Friday. She wanted to see more pics I just sent her 1.
1___> How should I read these types of reachings out? In the past this is what has brought her more forward to me.
The next day I started to really feel the anger surface. Anger of the coldness and how it feels like she's 100% completely gone. On the other side of the anger I find a more pure idea of what I want and how I want to love her (or someone else).
All my feelings are pretty intense. Sometimes I spiral (most) and need company on the phone.
2) yesterday I tore my MCL and ended up in the hospital. I did not call her for help. I coordinated additional hours for my nanny to help me and started getting my mind straight on what was a head of me. This is not to say I really wanted her nurturing and sympathy. I didn't make a big deal of it because I didn't want her to come here and then leave, like ripping the bandaide off. Meanwhile I felt like I may have been rejecting her love as I've done in the past (she's a nurse). I sent her a matter of fact text telling her what had happened and how I was working on plans to take care of our daughter while I sort things out. I mentioned "if I need anything I'll reach out. She replied, I'm so sorry do you need anything, I replied No but if I do I'll reach out. Moment later she asked if I would be able to get our daughter in and out of the crib, I replied, yes. she replied ok.
2___> Thoughts?
3) This morning she dropped our daughter off. I cleaned up, shaved. Straight back open heart and ready to see her - the days she's dropped her off I'm typically working in my home office thus I just saw her for the first time n a few weeks the nanny was in the room.
She hardly looked at me and spoke mostly to the nanny - I though that was odd. She also had a higher toned pitch in her voice.
3___> Thoughts?
4) I almost called her bf to ask if she thought what would be the best course of action - being more open or space? Space feels like that's at the expense of coming off the way our relationship went.
4___>
5)
- I'm afraid I'm starving her of authentic recognition that I hadn't given her before.
- I'm afraid I'm abandoning her through shutting down which is how I was in the relationship.
- Basically everything that I was doing to hurt her feels like what I am doing to her now.
5___> Thoughts?
6)
I also bought Divorce Remedy - should I read Divorce Busters first? I think my DB coach mentioned reading Divorce Busters first??
6___> Thoughts
7)
My coach also recommended trying to build a friendship first with her......I'm still wrapping my head around that one.
7___> Thoughts
8)
She requested a few weeks ago that we schedule an appointment to see a mediator. I volunteered that her after my training I would reach out to them. I called them this morning. I would love any and all thoughts around this
8___> Thoughts
THANK YOU ALL!
1) Over the course of the week she sent texted me a message saying "did you see my jacket omg Instagram?" - I said I hadn't because I haven't been on in weeks. She sent me picture of it and I gave her some praise and positive feedback. She listed it to sell on line and it sold within 12 hours and sent me a message to tell me. I asked her how it felt and she said "pretty awesome"
Do not reply to these kinds of texts.
2) yesterday I tore my MCL and ended up in the hospital. I did not call her for help. I coordinated additional hours for my nanny to help me and started getting my mind straight on what was a head of me. This is not to say I really wanted her nurturing and sympathy. I didn't make a big deal of it because I didn't want her to come here and then leave, like ripping the bandaide off. Meanwhile I felt like I may have been rejecting her love as I've done in the past (she's a nurse). I sent her a matter of fact text telling her what had happened and how I was working on plans to take care of our daughter while I sort things out. I mentioned "if I need anything I'll reach out. She replied, I'm so sorry do you need anything, I replied No but if I do I'll reach out. Moment later she asked if I would be able to get our daughter in and out of the crib, I replied, yes. she replied ok.
I am sorry about your MCL.Do not ask her for anything that doesn't include something with your daughter.
3) This morning she dropped our daughter off. I cleaned up, shaved. Straight back open heart and ready to see her - the days she's dropped her off I'm typically working in my home office thus I just saw her for the first time n a few weeks the nanny was in the room.
She hardly looked at me and spoke mostly to the nanny - I though that was odd. She also had a higher toned pitch in her voice.
Way too much over analyzing. She will run hot and cold with you.
4) I almost called her bf to ask if she thought what would be the best course of action - being more open or space? Space feels like that's at the expense of coming off the way our relationship went.
Do not talk to her BF about this. Period! Time and Space are the only things that turn these things around long-term.
- I'm afraid I'm starving her of authentic recognition that I hadn't given her before.
- I'm afraid I'm abandoning her through shutting down which is how I was in the relationship.
- Basically everything that I was doing to hurt her feels like what I am doing to her now.
Anything that starts with "I'm afraid" is not good.
I also bought Divorce Remedy - should I read Divorce Busters first? I think my DB coach mentioned reading Divorce Busters first??
Do what your coach recommends here.
My coach also recommended trying to build a friendship first with her......I'm still wrapping my head around that one.
This is one area where the coach and the board differ.
She requested a few weeks ago that we schedule an appointment to see a mediator. I volunteered that her after my training I would reach out to them. I called them this morning. I would love any and all thoughts around this
Do not lift a finger to help her D you!
JH,
You are operating out of fear right now and that is typically a recipe for disaster.
So tell me JH what are you really afraid of?
Steve, just read the link - very good post about accepting what she says and not show anger at her.
LH19 - A vision of love that I now understand. The heavy burden of regret. The pain of this learning. This is something I have tried to avoid my entire life. The reality I held is now gone and the sadness around that. The convolution that this brings to my daughter.
Steve85 - thanks I started reading the thread now. It's heavy.
J,
I think you are overthinking and overtalking this sitch.
Go "No Contact" unless it is in regard to your child.
The fact that she cheated on her husband before you guys met isn't good, and I think y'all not being together might be good.
Do you know how you figure this out? Give yourself time and space from her. Spend some time thinking and some time not thinking, just having fun doing GAL stuff. Figure out your issues, but simplify them. Armchair psychology is popular right now but unless you have a professional diagnosing you with something, just think of good and bad behaviors IMO. Keep it Simple.
When she talks, you listen and validate. You keep your opinion to yourself unless she directly asks. And even then, I would think twice about answering her questions about Instagram or what have you been up to. You could respond "I didn't catch it I was busy working on something downstairs." And it would be even better if you were downstairs building something, you know?
How long of time between her D with first H and when the two of you started dating?
Has she ever said how many relationships she's had?
4) I almost called her bf to ask if she thought what would be the best course of action - being more open or space? Space feels like that's at the expense of coming off the way our relationship went.
NEVER, EVER talk to her friend (or relative) about the relationship, and especially ask what course of action to take. It makes no difference how much the best friend says they want to see you together. You don't show your cards.
@sandi - she was married from 23-32. Had issues with a controlling husband - I also thought I was living under his shadow - I brought that up and I don't think she fully realized it.
We met when she was 34.
Sandi, call me crazy but there are many many things I love about her. I always outwardly encouraged her and it came across to hear that she wasn't good enough as she was.
Now I feel like there's so many layers to this separation..... I think the space is really good for her. I don't like the feeling of growing apart right now at all.
The more space I have the more I'm understanding myself, what I want, how I want to feel and how I want to show up in the world. And I see her (or someone like) her by my side.
I get confused and lost because in the past I would respond to her small advances and it would build momentum for us. I'm fumbling as you can see with some of my communication with her and not following up on anything that could be construed as an advancement. I'm also concerned that the "just business about our daughter" will trigger her abandonment that she felt during our relationship (which in part I now can see and own my share of that).
We are currently reconciling taxes and monies owed.
Also, as I may have mentioned, she asked to go to the mediator, I told her a few weeks ago I would call one once I was done training - and I did call one on Sunday. I still haven't heard back. I want to be a man of my word AND I don't know how to handle this one. Do I tell her I called? Do I leave it?
(and I didn't reach out to her best friend)
Thank you all, so very much.
J, I want you to read as much about breaking codependency as you can.
Depending on each other is a normal thing in a healthy marriage, so it is hard to break these old habits and behaviors. But you have to. You have got to learn how to live without her right now.
You have to stop attaching your happiness to her, and discover what makes you happy as an individual.
You have to stop wasting time caring about her feelings, and spend every second of your free time learning to care for yourself.
@joe2017
Thanks J. I had a big step today and getting help for what I think is at the core of the codependency. I saw a book about codependency at her house a few weeks ago actually - but that's her journey and I'm working on focusing on only my own.
Also - How does validating her play into any of this? I downloaded a list awhile ago and was curious how that (if)played into this?
Hi JHopeful,
Also - How does validating her play into any of this? I downloaded a list awhile ago and was curious how that (if)played into this?
OverTheRainbow said it well--
When she talks, you listen and validate. You keep your opinion to yourself unless she directly asks. And even then, I would think twice about answering..
Do you have any specific questions after reviewing the validation cheat sheet? Active Listening and Validation are skills that get better with practice. They also work on customers, family and acquaintances.
@joe2017
Thanks J. I had a big step today and getting help for what I think is at the core of the codependency. I saw a book about codependency at her house a few weeks ago actually - but that's her journey and I'm working on focusing on only my own.
Also - How does validating her play into any of this? I downloaded a list awhile ago and was curious how that (if)played into this?
Validating is a way of responding to what they say while trying to avoid a negative emotional response. It works both directions. You learn to validate instead of argue a point (and maybe get some insight and reduce conflicts), and they get an answer from you that de-escalates and makes them feel acknowledged.
@joe2017 is there only one list in the forum? any other references you could suggest? I see how this clearly will help (and was missing) in my relationships and whatever may come of the one with my daughters mother.
Some of these realizations just bring up a lot sadness.....
JHopeful, I noted a few helpful resources above [edit--oops, another thread!]
The 3-minute video by Brenee Brown on Empathy is great for understanding validation.
The validation thread here has good examples--but, of course, don't just repeat those and sound robotic. Some people sound robotic when they first try active listening and validation!
You can share your attempts here and request feedback. Ron's thread today has some examples of that, and a forum search of "Validation" will come up with many more examples.
Lifehacker has an article, "How to Practice Active Listening".
"The Art of Listening" is a good book on this.
I just don't understand it. She sends me funny emoji's with her communications about herself to me.
And she sends me videos of our daughter and her progress updates.... It's hard for me to make this transition into "friend / dad only zone"
I imagine I'm reading all into this that there is the want to connect beyond my daughter......
I've only responded to the texts with short comments about my daughter like "she's really cute" or "go P go!"
I've read that I shouldn't is there harm in replying?
I just don't understand it. She sends me funny emoji's with her communications about herself to me.
Doesn't want to deal with consequences of firing her husband. Trying to keep you friendly/friend zone. Also "Look at what a great mom/X I am!"
It will get easier to see it for what it is the farther along you get.
And she sends me videos of our daughter and her progress updates.... It's hard for me to make this transition into "friend / dad only zone"
It will get better and one day you won't have to tell yourself to accept it. You just will.
I imagine I'm reading all into this that there is the want to connect beyond my daughter......
There is NOTHING in this outside of what I said about her trying to look good and "do the right thing".
Crumbs. They are crumbs. If she wanted to connect beyond her daughter, you would not wonder. She would make it abundantly clear. Trust me. I'm a woman. If I want to connect with a man ---He KNOWS!
I've only responded to the texts with short comments about my daughter like "she's really cute" or "go P go!"
GOOD!!!!!
I've read that I shouldn't is there harm in replying?
If you want to set your progress back, reply. (Ask me how I know!)
My best advice, which I don't always follow - Never reply unless it's a direct question that requires a response. Emphasis "requires".
Hang in there! Keep posting. You aren't alone!
x
Question:
A said her number 1 value is family. I did not meet that connection with her.
I've come to realize that family is even more important to me than I have ever realized.
She is sending me pictures of my daughter to me and my mom.
Last week I FaceTimed both her sister and her mom while having my daughter on her lap.
I feel boxed into a corner where I want to participate in these activities of family (replying to pictures of my daughter and staying engaged with her family) in part because I enjoy them - but also to show her that I am in fact invested in family.
Am I over thinking this?
hahaha - thanks for the laugh LH19.
On a serious note, what position should I take on whether to respond to the pictures and videos of my daughter? ignore? short comment? heart the photo?
Should I abstain from connecting with her family while I have our daughter?
You are overthinking again.
You had it here:
I've only responded to the texts with short comments about my daughter like "she's really cute" or "go P go!"
But you really dont have to respond at all. Depends on each situation and whether you want to keep receiving these images/videos.
When I have my kids I focus 100% on them.
If they want to visit XW's dad when we are in town I will go there with them (if I feel we have time for it), but I will never sleep over there again.
J,
It's really your call J. It's viewed as cakeating. Your W should be feeling the loss when she is not with your daughter.
LH19 - what is "cakeating"?
She's about to come over and I find myself just trying to impress her by how I look and what the house looks like.
LH19 - what is "cakeating"?
She's about to come over and I find myself just trying to impress her by how I look and what the house looks like.
She gets her cake and eats it too. She gets everything she wants.
Joe17 -
Does the book explain why this cold approach works, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all, don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting nor discarding everyone's support, in fact it's the opposite. I need support right now and this community has been incredibly supportive.
So let’s say your boss fires you from your job. You find a new one and he’s texting you asking you to send pictures of the projects your working on. Would you do it? Why or why not?
Did she move out in order to have space, and "to find herself" or "work on herself"? Did she move out in order to work on the MR? I doubt she moved out to work on the M. However, you can use this physical separation as a way of showing her what life without you would be for her. It takes strength and courage on your part, b/c it means you let her go, instead of playing these little peek-a-boo games she's putting out there.
I get confused and lost because in the past I would respond to her small advances and it would build momentum for us. I'm fumbling as you can see with some of my communication with her and not following up on anything that could be construed as an advancement. I'm also concerned that the "just business about our daughter" will trigger her abandonment that she felt during our relationship (which in part I now can see and own my share of that).
It's not going to work now. You were in a different time space then. Now, she wants out of the M, and has moved out of the home. That indicates more than just a riff. I'm going to call b.s. on the part about you being concerned if you pull back it will trigger
her abandonment issues. YOU are the one who has abandonment issues......(which you admit at the end of that statement.) She has to take responsibility for helping her own issues.
Does the book explain why this cold approach works, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all, don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting nor discarding everyone's support, in fact it's the opposite.
Cold? What did you think separation was? What you see as being "cold" is what we often call tough love. It takes strength to apply tough love. You are living separate lives. She wants out. So, no, you don't act like a loving husband who is all concerned about her feelings......b/c she's fired you from husband position. Now, she needs to experience the results of her firing. Is that too cold for you? B/c this has just started.
I don't mean to say you have to behave like a jerk. You don't have to be hateful or mean. LBH's have trouble balancing their viewpoints, and when they're told not do something that way........they immediately think we mean go to the extreme opposite.
Also - How does validating her play into any of this? I downloaded a list awhile ago and was curious how that (if)played into this?
It's not complementing her. It's not agreeing with everything she says. It's listening. Letting her know you hear her. However, that's not to mean you have to stick around when she cussing you out or on some rampage linked to you. I've seen newcomer nice-guys get so focused on validating, when they should walk away from how the WW is talking to them. Frankly, I think nice guys jump at the validation stuff, b/c it feels more comfortable for their NGS. But unfortunately, many of them sound as if they are kissing her backside, or comes off sounding like a robot repeating the same sentence. If your W is wayward, you need to be real careful expressing validation. Don't overkill.
I just don't understand it. She sends me funny emoji's with her communications about herself to me.
And she sends me videos of our daughter and her progress updates.... It's hard for me to make this transition into "friend / dad only zone"
I imagine I'm reading all into this that there is the want to connect beyond my daughter......
I've only responded to the texts with short comments about my daughter like "she's really cute" or "go P go!"
I've read that I shouldn't is there harm in replying?
The WW doesn't want you for a husband, but she wants you to stay attached to her.......for selfish reasons. She wants you for a BFF, not a lover. She keeps you confused and emotionally attached by sending you photos of your child, and inviting you to family events/activities. She'll "use" the child for her own selfish benefit, just as you'll use your child to contact your W. These acts of contact from her should be ignored. If she text you "good morning" or late at night, just know these are her ways to keep you attached. She has no plans of taking the relationship any farther than friendship. Your best bet is to stop communication with her. I would advise you to not attend her family events, or even go over there when they invite you. They are
her family, and you two are separated. Respect them enough to step back during this period. You don't have to be rude or cold to them, but if they invite you to something just thank them and say you love them but need space while going through this separation with their daughter.
Last week I FaceTimed both her sister and her mom while having my daughter on her lap.
On your W's lap, or your lap? I bet they saw right through your motivation (which was for them to go tell your W what a devoted and loving dad you are). Trying to get some brownie points with her family isn't going to impress your W.
what is "cakeating"?
She's about to come over and I find myself just trying to impress her by how I look and what the house looks like.
Cakeeating is when she benefits from being married to you, and benefits living as a single gal. Let me tell you, as long as you show her she is relevant in your life and you're trying to act good enough to please her...........you'll never get her back. I understand this probably sounds totally opposite from your ideas of saving the M, but I'm cutting to the chase here to tell you what works and doesn't work. Unless you were guilty of some type of abuse, addiction, or criminal activity, I'd guess she didn't have a justifiable reason for leaving you. Selfish reasons are only justifiable to her.
You have to act as if you are moving forward with your life (without her) and you'll be just fine. Otherwise, you are giving the reigns of your life to her and she'll never be attracted to you as a man. Why? B/c you are showing you have very little self respect, so why should she have any more? You'll be receiving a lot of new information of how to approach your sitch, so don't act upon something before you really understand it.
Joe17 -
Does the book explain why this cold approach works, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all, don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting nor discarding everyone's support, in fact it's the opposite. I need support right now and this community has been incredibly supportive.
It's not really cold J. It's just the way things are when you are separated. Just like LH said, would you still do unpaid work for your boss after you've been fired and replaced?
Nobody is telling not to be polite or courteous. We are just telling you to treat your ex like an ex. You need to be free of the emotional ties to your ex. They will slow your healing. They will stunt your growth. And they will make it easy for her to manipulate you.
I would tweak this a little and not say courteous or polite but not be rude or dismissive. Just uninterested.
I would tweak this a little and not say courteous or polite but not be rude or dismissive. Just uninterested.
Right, and the LBH
not being interested in the WW......drives her crazy. She doesn't want
him, but she wants his availability to her. She can find his usefulness for all sorts of things.
@LH19 / @Sandi2 and others: how is this (a correspondence from yesterday)
Her:
Hey, I need to get a filling on wednesday from 10-12. I'll be gone 15 min on either end. Will you be available to hang with P? H isn't but I thought I'd check with you before I start calling other sitters.
Me:
Good morning-I imagine that is going to be a big relief for you to get that finally taken care of, unfortunately though I can’t watch her during those hours tho. I think M hours may have changed for the better so you can ask her.
I really get the feeling she doesn't have a whole lot of respect for me. She'll barely even look at me when I see her and hardly ever says good bye when we do daughter drop offs (but that was always a pattern from her anyway)
Also:
When she drops our daughter off on Friday she said something to the effect that:
"listen the parroting has begin - I sometimes say "O my gosh and P repeats me and says "O my Josh" (which is the first name of her ex-husband) and she started laughing. I nervously said, "O great, now I'm going to get triggered every hour" - in retrospect I started thinking that she really doesn't have any clue about my feelings...
I feel like I've lived under Josh's shadow this entire relationship.
It also falls in line with her BF making a meme about me wearing all denim and she shows me.....
sometimes I let my thoughts get a hold of me and end up with "what does she think of me and my feelings that I would just be ok with laughing these things off - if I had more validation from her it would be ok b/c we would have more trust....
You have been wounded by a kitten my friend, not a lion. And you are still hoping to trust the scorpion.
Maybe a bit heavy on the Karate Kid stuff but I hope you get the point.
Me:
Good morning-I imagine that is going to be a big relief for you to get that finally taken care of, unfortunately though I can’t watch her during those hours tho. I think M hours may have changed for the better so you can ask her.
Wordy? I'd go with, "Sorry, I'm not available." or "Thanks for checking, I'm not available."
Maybe "I Imagine this is going to be a big relief.." was an attempt at validation? But note, she did not express any feelings, which is the entry point for validation.
"I think M hours may have changed for the better so you can ask her." - Sounds like you are trying to help her solve her problems, but you're no longer in that role.
I recommend you practice responding with short and to the point text messages. I know nice guys want to be polite and all of that NGS stuff, but you get way too wordy and overly-polite. Try keeping it down to a dozen words, if possible. It cuts out all that chit-chat. In some cases, keep it down to a half dozen.
This morning text:
H- How was the weekend with her?
M- We had a great weekend together.
H- Great! How is she sleeping, eating, pooping etc?
M- Everything was pretty normal...she was up at 6:20 this morning.
H- Ok thanks
The coldness hurts.
After talking with my therapist this morning it's more clear that there is so much mis-communication and understanding missing between us, and it's like she's running on resentment and not seeing what has been really going on. she's also really stubborn.
She's being kind, and I can't help that my stance is me looking like a non-kind person and not building any bridges..... maybe someday I'll look back on this thread and it will all make sense.
Most LBS's panic and analyze every utterance their WAS makes, analyzes everything they do and beat themselves up for any action or vocalization that wasn't perfect.
Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years long turnaround.
When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.
As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.
If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.
Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"
Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.
Over time, you have trained each other what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.
If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.
In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.
How do you convince her of that?
(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.
(2) Acting differently when no one is looking
(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.
She's being kind, and I can't help that my stance is me looking like a non-kind person and not building any bridges..... maybe someday I'll look back on this thread and it will all make sense.
You're right J. You are being a jerk. I mean being short with your responses are way worse than BDing your spouse and moving out of the house.
I don't say that to be sarcastic but to point out how illogical LBSs can get when it comes to this stuff. It is like when my W got all indignant about my snooping on her. As if snooping and finding out about her EA was worse than carrying on an EA with an OM!!
J, you are basing things on feelings. You need to start thinking about things logically. You cannot nice her back, that is something that I can guarantee you. We've seen it time and time and time again in these situations. You can try and learn the hard way. Or you can listen to those that have gone before and realize that doing what FEELS right is not the same as doing what is best.
Bottom line, it is your sitch. Handle it the way you want. Though I will warn you, therapists typically do not get DBing. That is why if you go to IC to SAVE your marriage, you will get bad advice. If you go to IC to IMPROVE yourself, you will be much better off.
Jh, just caught up on the last page of posts. The "Oh my Josh" thing has me wondering. Is there any chance that she might be back with her ex? Maybe the Oh my Gosh/Josh thing is just a coincidence. However, I'm a firm believer in what an anti-D expert wrote regarding WW and moving out.
Wives do not need own place to work on the relationship or to find themselves. Wives need their own place to sleep with other people.
it's more clear that there is so much mis-communication and understanding missing between us, and it's like she's running on resentment and not seeing what has been really going on. she's also really stubborn.
It will get worse, and she's going to test you in several ways. It's not b/c she is conflicted or having second thoughts. It's b/c she wants assurance that you are still emotionally attached.
Just wait, she'll change. Kindness from the WW is often her sneaky way of manipulation, and the guy never has a clue.
I can't help that my stance is me looking like a non-kind person and not building any bridges..... maybe someday I'll look back on this thread and it will all make sense.
Okay, let's talk about this. I think I may have said something once before about LBH's with NGS having trouble balancing how they view things when we start discussing some DBing techniques. For example, you've brought up words like, cold and non-kind in the past couple of posts. So, I'm curious. If you were to describe the actions of a strong man in a sitch such as yours, how would he look to you? Would you see him as a man of who commands respect? Do you see him being a harsh disciplinarian? Do you see strength as unkind or impolite? Do you see detaching as acting mad and/or cold? These are areas you seem to be resisting, so let's talk about what your mind sees when you think of a strong man.
Now you may not like my next question, but let's get down to the nitty-gritty. Why does it bother you so much at the thought of not responding to your WW in your usual manner? Like, why does it bother you if you don't reply to every single photo she sends, or her text that has no question? Why does it bother you if I suggest you need to use less words when texting her? Why do you see it as being cold or impolite? Don't say it's b/c you love her. You've got to get down in the raw meat about who
you are as a man. IMHO, if you will dig deep and answer these two questions very honestly, I think we might start getting somewhere.
I hope, at the least, you'll work with us to find balance as you digest this new information, instead of jumping from one polar end to the other. Am I making sense?
((hugs))
Hi JHopeful,
She's being kind, and I can't help that my stance is me looking like a non-kind person.
I want to gently challenge this notion.
Good morning-I imagine that is going to be a big relief for you to get that finally taken care of, unfortunately though I can’t watch her during those hours tho. I think M hours may have changed for the better so you can ask her.
Thanks for checking, I'm not available.
I believe my answer is kind. It expresses gratitude for her checking with you before checking with a sitter, and in a timely fashion lets her know you're unavailable so she can pursue other options. If you detect any unkindness in this reply, please call it out, as it's how I would answer and I strive to be kind.
I get the point you see your wordiness as building a bridge. Maybe a more appropriate analogy is throwing a lifeline across a bridge that you both had a role in weakening and that she demolished? Your hope doesn't help you detach. Your availability doesn't help her feel your loss. "I'm here anytime you need me", without helicoptering, is what they recommend parents do to help their children feel safe to explore the world on their own. Maybe you'd rather your ex look back and say, "Huh! The other side of the bridge isn't so amazing.." and look back towards you? With detachment comes healing, and space for self-improvement if you choose that road. Maybe they look back.. and find a better you. Maybe they don't and it's all for you.
((Hugs)) Be kind. Accept they're done for now. Be true to yourself.
Thanks everyone, it's just so much to process....a new job, taking care of our daughter 50/50 and this new stance....
Yes, my hope doesn't help me detach.
It bothers me because being kind is one of my values. Being kind was one of our bonds.....
She's kind too, it's in her nature....I can't imagine her ever being different.
It bothers me because being kind is one of my values. Being kind was one of our bonds.....
I applaud kindness as one of your values, and you have much to process. Be kind to yourself as you do! It's sometimes easier to remember to be kind to others than to be kind to ourselves.
You need to learn the dynamics of NGS.
There is nothing wrong with being kind/nice but we (includes me) tend to, as nice guys, avoid conflicts and not enforce boundaries. We downplay our own wants and needs for others.
This reduces your value and over time reduce respect from S.
Will you please respond to my questions in my last post?
Thanks everyone, it's just so much to process....a new job, taking care of our daughter 50/50 and this new stance....
Yes, my hope doesn't help me detach.
It bothers me because being kind is one of my values. Being kind was one of our bonds.....
She's kind too, it's in her nature....I can't imagine her ever being different.
There is nothing unkind about being short, business like, and to the point. This is your NGS gnawing at you. You shared short messages in the exchange with her. You did great. And in no way were those mean. You realize there is no other option. Kind or mean, it is a binary state. If you weren't mean then you were by definition, kind. Were you effusive in your kindness? No, but that doesn't mean that you were unkind.
Hi @Sandi2
Thanks - to your questions:
1) So, I'm curious. If you were to describe the actions of a strong man in a sitch such as yours, how would he look to you? Would you see him as a man of who commands respect? Do you see him being a harsh disciplinarian? Do you see strength as unkind or impolite? Do you see detaching as acting mad and/or cold? These are areas you seem to be resisting, so let's talk about what your mind sees when you think of a strong man.
>>>----a lot came out in therapy yesterday and this support helped it all surface. My masculine side is not fully on board - I've done a lot of work around it over the past 17 years however it didn't go deep enough. Yesterday that all became apparent. "Commanding respect" scares me in the sense where I fear the loss of connection as a result. I know I need to heal this and cultivate a healthier sense of power in that regard. It's 100% clear. I have some things that happened to me early on as a kid that have now surfaced as part of the things that were guiding my actions. Truth: I'm realizing through this situation that have a lot of self-loathing and destructive hurtful internal conversations about myself with myself.
2) Why does it bother you so much at the thought of not responding to your WW in your usual manner? Like, why does it bother you if you don't reply to every single photo she sends, or her text that has no question? Why does it bother you if I suggest you need to use less words when texting her? Why do you see it as being cold or impolite? Don't say it's b/c you love her. You've got to get down in the raw meat about who you are as a man. IMHO, if you will dig deep and answer these two questions very honestly, I think we might start getting somewhere.
>>>------ I fear loss of connection and messing things up. I feel like kindness was a tenant of our relationship and that coldness will push her away and it will be perceived as more of me abandoning her (which I did and was painful for her).
I think @Steve85 gave me some clarity around this in his above comment. My therapist also said the same thing.
3) IMHO, if you will dig deep and answer these two questions very honestly, I think we might start getting somewhere.
>>>>------Yes, I 100% agree. I have some long overdue patterns, addictions and beliefs that I am finally looking at. I can't do this work for her, I need to do it for me and realize that this is much much bigger than whether or not we reconcile - and I'm starting to see that and feel it more. I still get confused about where to put my love and hope for her.....
Thanks everyone.
JH, do you think acting out of fear makes you attractive or unattractive?
@steve85 Completely unattractive. My strategies to temper the anxiety I have because of an aggressive mother no longer work. This is really starting to become about me now...
@steve85 Completely unattractive. My strategies to temper the anxiety I have because of an aggressive mother no longer work. This is really starting to become about me now...
BINGO!
Did you see my response about your concern about kindness vs unkindess? Have you looked into Nice Guy Syndrome?
@steve85 - yes, and it's starting to make some sense....some. And NGS - it's on my list....I read it years ago and I'm getting to a place where it would be more than just a pacifier and a helpful long term solution.
THIS MORNING:
Our daughter is sick. A called me and we spoke about what is going on. Prior to dropping off some meds at their house I called and said,
"listen, I'm missing her right now so I'd rather just leave the meds at the door than go on in."
I left the meds and some balloons for our daughter followed up with a text:
"Keep me posted on the Dr visit. Something to consider, I haven’t had any symptoms of any kind, I could be a-symptomatic but it also could just be a cold. It’s good to keep everything in mind and I trust your judgment."
She followed up with "Good thinking with the balloons 🎈 Shes totally distracted. Thank you so much"
and
"Thank you, they open at nine so I will keep you posted. I will ask what they think we should do, whether they think we should get tested also. I feel like it’s probably just a cold, but since were in this pandemic we are stuck."
She then sent me a few pictures of our daughter playing with the balloons in the tub. I gave them all a heart reply.
----> How are these responses?
the "thank you so much" is something she would never say.... yes I'm analyzing..... ugh...
She mentioned something about needing to be home with her all day and maybe needing help to get some food....she didn't bring it back up......
I now see the lines get blurred really quickly with our daughter.
.....
Hi JHopeful,
Our daughter is sick. A called me and we spoke about what is going on.
I would, too! As a dad, I'm always up for a call about my children not feeling well. That assumes you knew her purpose was that or another emergency before you picked up the phone, of course.
I called and said, "listen, I'm missing her right now
Seems unnecessary. How does emoting about your feelings help your D? It's also not a kindness.
so I'd rather" just leave the meds at the door than go on in."
Okay. Stronger is, "I'll leave the meds by the door," being decisive instead of stating a preference.
I left the meds and some balloons for our daughter
Fantastic!!! Props. I award thee, the coveted DB forum "Great Parent" badge. (:
Keep me posted on the Dr visit.
Great--as her parent, you want updates on your daughter's medical care.
Something to consider, I haven’t had any symptoms of any kind, I could be a-symptomatic but it also could just be a cold. It’s good to keep everything in mind and I trust your judgment."
Seems unnecessary. "I haven't had any symptoms of any kind" is meat. Expanding on that is also good. "I haven't had any cough, loss of taste, or known exposures." But then you explain your understanding of COVID. I wonder why--does she need to know this? Do you think you know more than her? She's about to see a doc who's presumably trained more than laymen in recognizing COVID vs. colds.
She then sent me a few pictures of our daughter playing with the balloons in the tub. I gave them all a heart reply.
I would also heart these. Even if I rarely exchange pics with my ex, I'd want these.
I have some things that happened to me early on as a kid that have now surfaced as part of the things that were guiding my actions.
Thank you for answering painful questions. I expected that it was something that influenced you when you were young. I think everyone develops healthy or unhealthy mental attitudes based on their experiences and/or influences during childhood.
I especially appreciate your frank honesty about the fear of commanding respecting. I think this is why enforcing boundaries are difficult for people who share this fear. IMHO, they usually imagine some type of very uncomfortable confrontation, maybe even violence as a consequence to disrespect, or they see themselves being punished in the end. I've had people ask me how to know if they are being disrespected, especially by their spouse. Do you recognize signs of disrespect, or have you become so passive and avoidant that disrespect has become the norm in everyday life.......especially at your own residential address?
Jhopeful, I encourage you to continue your progress with your IC. You have revealed the basic issue we often see in LBS's, IMHO. I have made the statement before that LBS's and wayward spouses have totally opposite mental attitudes.......even before the wayward mindset begins. To boil it down, it's like the WS knows in their heart they are wrong, but more importantly to this subject is that they
KNOW they would have never tolerated the same behavior from their LBS. It's as if they are saying, "
I show disrespect toward you, and you take it...... but I won't allow you to disrespect me". What do you think about this?
Have you ever took time to list the most important things you need in order to determine your self value? I probably didn't word that sentence very well, but hopefully, you know what I mean. Do you have this fear of commanding respect from other people outside your family, like coworkers, friends, neighbors, etc. What are the things you will not tolerate from others? Anything? You can't set boundaries, unless you know what it takes to protect your self respect.
If you did not fear losing connection with that person, what would change about Jhopeful? Do you have a mental image of that version of yourself?
I have to wonder if some things you may think is your W's insecurities or hang-ups, are really more about your own. I've seen a lot of newcomer nice-guys make reference to their W's abandonment issues. These nice-guys are overly concerned about how their WW will see his new approach or stance as being cold, unkind, impolite, etc. No offense intended when I say I think it's more about his own NGS and insecurities (abandonment, etc.). He is afraid, and the
fear is driving his actions (or lack thereof). I dare say that this fear is constantly driving him in everything in life.
Currently, you have to think/work through these issues and decide if you want to change anything about yourself. Don't make any grand pronouncements or sudden move without discussing it here or with your IC. Okay? Since you have shown willingness to dig deep, I think you have a good chance in developing a healthier mental attitude. lt may or may not save the MR, but I think it will definitely save you and give you a happier future. It may be with your current W, or not. Right now, your focus needs to be Jhopeful, the man. You can't save anything, before you save yourself.
(((hugs)))
P.S. Keep posting.
@CWarrior - Thanks. My reply about not wanting to see her was really me practicing being authentic, I'll need to think about that more.....
She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options. She's a nurse so she needs to be careful. I'm a pretty resourceful man and found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing. After we went over some next steps I could hear that she was still unsettled. Then she said - "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time" It was the first time she shared any emotion with me in 6 weeks. Our daughter was in a fit in the background, A said that they were both hungry and she continued to spiral.
I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door.
Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.
I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best"
Am I getting this right?
@CWarrior - Thanks. My reply about not wanting to see her was really me practicing being authentic, I'll need to think about that more.....
She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options. She's a nurse so she needs to be careful. I'm a pretty resourceful man and found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing. After we went over some next steps I could hear that she was still unsettled. Then she said - "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time" It was the first time she shared any emotion with me in 6 weeks. Our daughter was in a fit in the background, A said that they were both hungry and she continued to spiral.
I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door.
Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.
I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best"
Am I getting this right?
Wait. You found it necessary to RESCUE your damsel in distress......AND SHE IS A NURSE?!? That to me is like calling my mom and dad for technology help. It doesn't make sense. She is in the medical field. This is where your NGS is kicking in.
Then you take care of breakfast? Wow.
So look at this:
"She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options."
"found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing"
" "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time""
"I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door. "
"Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.
I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best""
You and her are fast becoming BFFs! JHopeful, do you know how many women end up dating their male BFFs? Hint: It ain't a lot.
The friendzone is an awful place to be when you want to be a woman's lover. But that is where you are headed, if not already there.
Everything you just did is what a friend would do. And I know what you are going to say "but it was my daughter that was sick....."
You have a long life ahead of you of coparenting. You cannot rescue her every time she has parenting issues. That isn't coparenting, that is one parent parenting, and the other parent getting off scot-free. As a parent should should have had breakfast stuff in the house to feed her daughter. She didn't need KNIGHT IN SHINING armore Jhopeful to come rescue her from the "sick daughter dragon".
So, do you think all of this helped you in your goal to get this woman back into your life....or harmed you? (Yeah yeah, you were just being 'nice'. Do we really have to go over that ground again??)
@CWarrior - Thanks. My reply about not wanting to see her was really me practicing being authentic, I'll need to think about that more.....
She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options. She's a nurse so she needs to be careful. I'm a pretty resourceful man and found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing. After we went over some next steps I could hear that she was still unsettled. Then she said - "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time" It was the first time she shared any emotion with me in 6 weeks. Our daughter was in a fit in the background, A said that they were both hungry and she continued to spiral.
I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door.
Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.
I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best"
Am I getting this right?
And stop apologizing for things she didn't do. This is beta behavior. Her: "I feel stressed!" You; "I am sorry!" I am not a fan of "I am sorry" as a validation tactic. First it becomes a crutch. You end up apologizing every time she has a bad day. Second, it makes it sound like you are at fault, something that WAS already feel about their LBS. You don't say sorry because you didn't do anything wrong!
"Sounds like you are feeling overwhelmed." Simple. Validating. Straight to the point.