Hi everyone,
I am so grateful to have found this forum – seems like you are all great people trying to help each other. I will try to make this first post of mine as concise as I can, but there is a lot of nuances and it is hard to know which parts are the most important.
Anyhow, if you make it to the end I am entirely grateful for you spending your time!
I, 31 and my partner / W (not married though) have been together for 7 years now (close). I am from Austria, she is from Mexico, we both live in Sweden. We don’t have children. We have had a few bumps in those 7 years, including her needing space and moving out 2 times before.
The main reasons in those times were that we are different in some key aspects. It took us a while to build a longer life vision together (like having children, moving to Mexico at some point) and she felt we were not 100% aligned. That has changed in the last 12 months when we took deliberate time and wrote our life visions together to see how aligned they were – and they were basically the same!
We also became very dependent on each other as we do not have family here and most of our friends have moved abroad – one of the reasons we said that we move to another place closer to her family. Which makes our R quite fragile in moments of conflicts and issues I believe.
Now, what happened in the last few months was that we lost intimacy with each other. With COVID and working from home nearly everyday, seeing each other ALL the time and not having much of a social life, we kind of got used to each other. I felt really comfortable and nice, but also not super attracted to her – neither did she. We started to focus a lot on work and projects that were started during COVID and got still quite busy some days.
For a period I was actually fine with not having a sex drive and us enjoying our time together – it made things a bit easier (sex has most of the time been slightly difficult for us). But in the last month or so I got really frustrated about our non-intimacy situation.
And normally I try to approach conflict in a way that is not too hard on the other person – before I would be quite easily go into confrontation, which she could not handle as she is quite sensitive. But this time I was so frustrated that I couldn’t keep my cool and I blamed her partly for the situation (I know, putting pressure on someone about sex will definitely not help, but I didn’t think it through).
That happened twice, once we went out for 2 nights in a cozy cabin in the middle of nowhere and the other time on New Year’s Eve. The first time I just went to sleep when she just wanted to play games one evening and I was expecting that we will have at least some more adult stuff happening. On New Years Eve the same, we were celebrating by ourselves and after dinner and some games I was ready to get a bit more physical, but she wanted to watch a movie instead. That’s when I said that I will just go to bed (at 10pm) and she didn’t react at all to it. But once in bed I couldn’t hold it and had to come back and start complaining how I am unhappy about our lack of sex and intimacy – how I do not want to watch movies and play games every evening and I was hoping we could be a bit more intimate this evening. We talked and it wasn’t the worst fight we had, but quite a sensitive subject. She was on her period and said that she didn’t think about it at all this evening.
The next day in the evening she asks me if I want a massage and we have 3 hours of just enjoying each other / no intercourse but intimate and I felt really good afterwards. The day after that in the evening I ask her suggestively if there are some more massages on the menu. And that is when BD happened.
She said that we should talk about what I raised the other evening and I reluctantly agreed. She said that she loves me, but more like a brother and sister. That she had struggled with this for a while, in her opinion for most of our relationship and that she needs to be true to herself and her feelings. That she needs to explore herself and be completely free for a while, like 6 months. That we wants to experiment and maybe meet other people to see if this sex blockage she has is her or our issue. That there should be no expectation that we get back together (which she said the previous 2 times as well)
I did not take that conversation to great and begged to try out different approaches as I am sure we can fix this. We have gotten so far, have worked on our R so much and this happens to 1/3 of all R. But she was quite determined and said that I have convinced her before that we should work on our R and it never 100% felt to be her decision. I became desperate and said things I regretted once I said them, like if you leave me I will kill myself (I told her not much later that I said that in impulse and that I wouldn’t do it, but once it’s said the damage is done anyhow). I also pushed her to be more concrete what this means and after 1 minute or so of thinking, she said that we are not going to be partners anymore. I felt I pushed her too much again and she was not clear about that before.
The day after we talked a bit more on a walk and I tried to explain her how I see things, but I also understood that she has made her mind up for now. She also said that her initial idea with the conversation the day before was not to go all the way to move out but rather to see what we do next. I just cant handle vague areas and I feel I pressured her to take a stand – I feel a bit like an idiot on that one.
I started to stop fighting and accepting in a way that I have done the 2 previous times – if this is what you need then I won’t be in your way. I want you to be happy and love you no matter what. She said that it would be great to stay in touch and meet a few times this week as it is a lonely time currently and we shouldn’t make the change too drastic. But I told her that from our previous breaks staying in touch was quite painful for me and it would probably be better to have no or as little contact as possible for 4 weeks (not sure if being so explicit about my feelings instead of just going silent was smart, but I am an honest person and want to be true to myself). She respected that choice/need but cried again and said that that is not what she wanted. I nearly changed my mind then and there.
She stayed at our place that day as well, we still slept in the same bed and watched a movie in the evening to not continue talking about the hard stuff as we were quite emotionally drained. She had a pretty shitty night, had to vomit before going to bed and felt miserable – so did I.
Now she moved to the empty apartment of a friend of mine who is currently in the US. We cried a lot when she packed and we said goodbye for like 10 minutes in tears, telling each other how much we love each other and that we send each other positive energy.
I am just so confused – I do understand that we have issues and I am not a great communicator sometimes, we lost intimacy and that she felt she was not truly happy with that. But at the same time she loves me so much and wants to stay in contact. She cares so much and it is such a weird loving way to take a break – similar to the other 2 times we did this btw.
I think that I should take the no-contact now and let her sit with her decision. But I also feel that I pushed her to take that decision a bit and that she was not wanting to do this so radically this time. So maybe talking and doing fun things together would help make her change her mind – as I have also been quite distant in the last 3 or so weeks. We have never been not communicating with each other for longer than a week maybe and not have been together for longer than 3 weeks besides the 2 times we took a break of 3-6 months (but even then we saw each other every week).
I was quite frustrated in the end now myself and was thinking myself if this is how I want my relationship to be – void of intimacy and sexuality. I think I thought a bit about if we are not compatible and I didn’t value us as much in the end as I did just 6 months ago. So I am also a bit unsure if we work well together – because I want to feel loved and accepted for who I am. I told her that as well sometimes, which might not help her feelings for me. We are quite different in some aspects:
- She vs Me
- She loves her family, I am semi-distant to mine due to not great childhood
- Mexican vs Austrian traits of course – living life more as it comes vs structure and planning
- Conflict-avoidant vs seeing conflict as a good thing to align
- Not sure about this, but I believe she is a distancer and I am a pursuer (but I do have traits of distancing as well as I did this time for example with just going to bed without saying a word)
- LL of QT and WOA vs QT and PT
At the same time I fear that I will loose her this time – I do love her and want her in my life. But I do want her to want me and be committed to us, which I feel is on very thin ice often. We have so much history, shared experiences and have values that are aligned imo especially now after writing our life visions and making long-term plans. I am also afraid of my mental health now in these isolating times, but that is the smallest issue now (a bit frustrated that she has to pull this one off now, but there is never good timing).
If you read until here, thank you! I feels good to just write this down and hopefully someone has some suggestions on what to do now – I ordered the DB and DR books so will read those.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi 1L,
Sorry to hear you are going through this, especially when it sounds like you don't have much support where you are right now.
Your situation sounds similar to my initial BD and has a lot of the same elements. I won't rehash the whole thing, but basically we were not being intimate and rather would just hang out in front of the tv each night. We were best friends but she said it had felt like we'd become brother and sister. She suggested a separation to find what each other wanted.
Through dumb luck, I DB'd without really knowing it. I went out and had a life and asked very little of what she was up to, I acted as if we were separating and I was upbeat and positive. After 4-5 months of this I felt a change and she even asked me if I wanted to end the separation. Unfortunately I was not on this forum or wise in the ways of DB and I blew the chance by just thinking all was ok again and going back to normal. What followed has not been pleasant or pretty.
Follow the DB rules, listen to the advice on here because it sounds like you are in a great place to turn this around if you want to. Learn as much as you can about relationships, attraction and yourself.
You can do this, we're all here for you.
Thanks OnlyBent!
How did you blew it up if you don't mind sharing - like just going to old habits and moving back together? Thats what I did the previous 2 times more or less, so probably similar.
One question I have, she is coming over to pick something up from the apartment today while I am not at home. I just got something from my dad in the post that she really loves (pumpkin seed oil) and was thinking to leave her a bottle with a note to enjoy it and make some nice salads.
Is this out of the zone - I have been quite distant in the last weeks of our relationship so just wondering if that would count as a 180?
In addition to above, I might have made another post BD mistake -
It doesn't really share any secrets etc. and I think it would be helpful for her to read about it because it shows what was wrong in our relationship. But might of course just be another mistake and now she might think I am trying tricks.
Nope absolutely not that is pursuit.
Just scanned your thread and there is a lot of manipulation on your part. Are you in IC?
Time and space are the only things that turn this around long-term.
There is a lot of fear in your posts. What are you afraid of 1st?
Nope absolutely not that is pursuit.
Just scanned your thread and there is a lot of manipulation on your part. Are you in IC?
Time and space are the only things that turn this around long-term.
There is a lot of fear in your posts. What are you afraid of 1st?
Which things would you say are manipulations? I guess things such as just going to bed and the massage topics?
Yes, there is fear and I guess it is fear of being alone and not knowing what the future will hold (we made quite elaborate plans together) - I know rationally stupid but anyhow. I have phases this time where I am not afraid anymore and can see myself being by myself again though.
Welcome 1st! Sorry you are going through this and struggling. When non-married folks come here and are having the difficulties you are, my first response is always to get out while you can! Dating, and pre-marriage is to vet out a relationship. I've never met a couple that had issues before marriage where those issues got better after marriage.
Now, I am sure the your heart disagrees with that. In fact, you may have had the same thoughts, so your brain and your heart might even be at odds with each other. I know what I stated above is easier said than done. But there are so many great people out there that you could forge such a solid R with, that it saddens me when unmarried folks come here stuck (by choice) with a walkaway partner that they have no legal entanglements that are preventing them from moving on from. Lots of us that have been married, and then DB'd, have had the thought that we wish we could go back and to never have married our S (though most of us that have had that thought wouldn't trade our kids that resulted from the marriage for the world!). You are already in that place.
Anyway, just my thought. Obviously it is your life and you will make the decisions you want to make, and that is okay. My opinion above and $1 will get you a box of popcorn.
In addition to above, I might have made another post BD mistake -
It doesn't really share any secrets etc. and I think it would be helpful for her to read about it because it shows what was wrong in our relationship. But might of course just be another mistake and now she might think I am trying tricks.
Just saw this got deleted - I basically shared with her a video from the NMMNG author where he talks about the sexual differences in men and women - thought that it showed a lot of patterns of our relationship. I kind of know that she might not want to see that stuff bc she wants to be left alone, but it was really interesting.
From now on I will keep NC until she comes back.
I just feel that I have made so many mistakes in the last 3 days that it will be hard to get together again. Begging, saying that I cannot live without her and I don't see a future for myself without her before I tell her that I want her to be happy and figure her life out. Also sending her that video doesn't help.
Regarding marriage, we never really planned to get married so far as in Sweden living together has more or less the same legal standard as marriage. We planned for children this year though towards the end to start trying - so ofc better to figure this out before and not have a child and then S.
The heart wants what the heart wants, I get that. However, I agree with your last statement. That is kind of the thinking I was speaking to. Are you guys "common law" married? Would you have to go through divorce proceedings to separate? If not, then that is what I was talking about. Most LBSs here have to deal with the legalities of D on top of the ending of their R and the loss of their S. If you do not have to deal with a D, then you are already half way there.
So I high lighted some things below that IMO are manipulation. Also with my second read through I have to be honest with you and you are probably not going to like this but you are very emotional and that is not attractive to women. You should read "How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne and "The Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida. You should become familiar with Masculine and Feminine energy.
I did not take that conversation to great and begged to try out different approaches as I am sure we can fix this.
We have gotten so far, have worked on our R so much and this happens to 1/3 of all R. But she was quite determined and said that I have convinced her before that we should work on our R and it never 100% felt to be her decision.
I became desperate and said things I regretted once I said them, like if you leave me I will kill myself (I told her not much later that I said that in impulse and that I wouldn’t do it, but once it’s said the damage is done anyhow).
The day after we talked a bit more on a walk and I tried to explain her how I see things, but I also understood that she has made her mind up for now.
I just cant handle vague areas and I feel I pressured her to take a stand – I feel a bit like an idiot on that one.
I started to stop fighting and accepting in a way that I have done the 2 previous times – if this is what you need then I won’t be in your way. I want you to be happy and love you no matter what.
Yes, there is fear and I guess it is fear of being alone and not knowing what the future will hold (we made quite elaborate plans together) - I know rationally stupid but anyhow. I have phases this time where I am not afraid anymore and can see myself being by myself again though.
Guess what 1ST NO ONE knows what the future holds, I bet last New Years Day you didn't think that next year you would be in the middle of a pandemic did you?
No legal proceedings needed to separate, it is really simple practically. But of course emotionally it is (for me at least) not much easier after such a long time (we moved in together after dating for 3 months and have been living together ever since besides the other 2 times she had to take a break).
I agree with you, I can get very emotional and I have an insecure attachment. I have been working on that the past years, but still takes quite some work. And this time I just got so annoyed that I couldn't control myself - so yes will start relationship C and potentially therapy (have a life coach as well).
Thanks for the book tips, will check them out. I am part of a Tantra group where we learn quite a bit about eroticism and masculine/feminine energy, but I guess I haven't taken that thinking fully into everyday life yet.
No legal proceedings needed to separate, it is really simple practically. But of course emotionally it is (for me at least) not much easier after such a long time (we moved in together after dating for 3 months and have been living together ever since besides the other 2 times she had to take a break).
Remember, you cannot make someone love you. The sooner you come to grips that maybe she does only love you like a brother, the sooner the emotional side of this will begin to subside.
Hang in there 1st, you are going to be fine no matter what.
Thanks Steve.
One question I have is that thing about going dark: I was not fully emotional available to her in the last weeks, so I am wondering if showing affection is not actually better?
She originally wanted to meet during the first weeks of S, but I said it is better to take a break due to the emotions involved after her moving out. She didn't like that at all, but accepted it.
I understand the idea of NC and working on oneself rather than focusing on the other person, just wondering how the 180 view is on such a situation?
I agree with you, I can get very emotional and I have an insecure attachment. I have been working on that the past years, but still takes quite some work. And this time I just got so annoyed that I couldn't control myself - so yes will start relationship C and potentially therapy (have a life coach as well).
Thanks for the book tips, will check them out. I am part of a Tantra group where we learn quite a bit about eroticism and masculine/feminine energy, but I guess I haven't taken that thinking fully into everyday life yet.
I agree with you, I can get very emotional and I have an insecure attachment. I have been working on that the past years, but still takes quite some work. And this time I just got so annoyed that I couldn't control myself - so yes will start relationship C and potentially therapy (have a life coach as well).
Thanks for the book tips, will check them out. I am part of a Tantra group where we learn quite a bit about eroticism and masculine/feminine energy, but I guess I haven't taken that thinking fully into everyday life yet.
Good you didn’t take offense. You will be easy to give advice to.
NC is statistically the best way to get her back. Do not contact her and only break NC if she is beating the door down trying to get you back. Stay NC for at least 30 days IMO. Google exgfrecovery. I found this on a podcast that Michele Weiner Davis was on a couple of times.
Formulate plan to get yourself healed and better.
Thanks Steve.
One question I have is that thing about going dark: I was not fully emotional available to her in the last weeks, so I am wondering if showing affection is not actually better?
She originally wanted to meet during the first weeks of S, but I said it is better to take a break due to the emotions involved after her moving out. She didn't like that at all, but accepted it.
I understand the idea of NC and working on oneself rather than focusing on the other person, just wondering how the 180 view is on such a situation?
If we had a dime for every newcomer that struggled with that very thing, myself included, the forum would be full of billionaires.
DBing is counter-intuitive. I mean even the statement "let them go to get them back" seems backwards. But the intuitive hasn't worked for you, has it? Isn't this the third time she has moved out? So flip the script, go dark. You did the right thing not meeting with her. It was the right thing because it let you start moving forward, and it showed her what life without you would be like. Keep DBing.
No legal proceedings needed to separate, it is really simple practically. But of course emotionally it is (for me at least) not much easier after such a long time (we moved in together after dating for 3 months and have been living together ever since besides the other 2 times she had to take a break).
Remember, you cannot make someone love you. The sooner you come to grips that maybe she does only love you like a brother, the sooner the emotional side of this will begin to subside.
Hang in there 1st, you are going to be fine no matter what.
What Steve wrote here is all you need right now. No marriage, no kids. Take this BD as a wake up call. You didnt change the last two times. If you dont change there never was and never will be a chance. Do this for you and down the road she might come back or you'll have improved for a better life with someone else.
What you described above is not a 180 IMO. 180 isn't about behavior from the past few weeks. It is about changing real habbits and ways of acting that have characterized you since you moved in together. Changing YOU.
At this point interaction should be ZERO anyway.
Yeah, I understand that and agree with you.
I guess I just don't want to seem that I don't care about her and that I am done with us and not interested anymore - I have been quite distant, one of the reasons for our loss of intimacy I believe. Because yes she moved out 2 times before, but she also came back 2 times and everytime we improved our R.
But I guess you are right - she always came back, but now she said that it was always me that convinced her to come back in one way or the other. So this is the ultimate test then - will she want our R by herself and if not she is not worth considering anyhow. Maybe her single life is better than our R.
One question I have is that thing about going dark: I was not fully emotional available to her in the last weeks, so I am wondering if showing affection is not actually better?
uuummm actually you are too emotionally available. So 1st she told you she feels like you are her brother. Would you want your sister being affectionate with you!
She originally wanted to meet during the first weeks of S, but I said it is better to take a break due to the emotions involved after her moving out. She didn't like that at all, but accepted it.
Stop talking about your feeling and emotions. Say some thing like "I am too busy" or " I have plans"
I understand the idea of NC and working on oneself rather than focusing on the other person, just wondering how the 180 view is on such a situation?[/quote]
What?
Yeah, I understand that and agree with you.
I guess I just don't want to seem that I don't care about her and that I am done with us and not interested anymore - I have been quite distant, one of the reasons for our loss of intimacy I believe. Because yes she moved out 2 times before, but she also came back 2 times and everytime we improved our R.
But I guess you are right - she always came back, but now she said that it was always me that convinced her to come back in one way or the other. So this is the ultimate test then - will she want our R by herself and if not she is not worth considering anyhow. Maybe her single life is better than our R.
She has come back before because you wanted her to. She has to come back because SHE wants to. Otherwise, it will only be a matter of time before she moves out again.
She has come back before because you wanted her to. She has to come back because SHE wants to. Otherwise, it will only be a matter of time before she moves out again.
Yeah, I just thought I could show that it is worth coming back. But yes, you are right. Let's see how the next weeks go, she will probably come here a few times to pick up stuff and I'll try to be busy doing other things (not easy in COVID times though).
She has come back before because you wanted her to. She has to come back because SHE wants to. Otherwise, it will only be a matter of time before she moves out again.
Yeah, I just thought I could show that it is worth coming back. But yes, you are right. Let's see how the next weeks go, she will probably come here a few times to pick up stuff and I'll try to be busy doing other things (not easy in COVID times though).
I would suggest you ask her to come one time to get all of her stuff. No need to do it over a few times and weeks. In fact, you could even pack everything for her, and have it ready for her to pick up.
She has come back before because you wanted her to. She has to come back because SHE wants to. Otherwise, it will only be a matter of time before she moves out again.
Yeah, I just thought I could show that it is worth coming back. But yes, you are right. Let's see how the next weeks go, she will probably come here a few times to pick up stuff and I'll try to be busy doing other things (not easy in COVID times though).
I would suggest you ask her to come one time to get all of her stuff. No need to do it over a few times and weeks. In fact, you could even pack everything for her, and have it ready for her to pick up.
Yeah, I'll try that. But we are completely silent now and I don't want to be the one breaking the silence. Also it doesn't seem like she came home yesterday to pick up some of her stuff but she said that the time slot I said doesn't fit her that well.
I just still feel that this NC is pulling us apart and that it will be quite weird next time we meet in person - if that is in a month.
She has come back before because you wanted her to. She has to come back because SHE wants to. Otherwise, it will only be a matter of time before she moves out again.
Yeah, I just thought I could show that it is worth coming back. But yes, you are right. Let's see how the next weeks go, she will probably come here a few times to pick up stuff and I'll try to be busy doing other things (not easy in COVID times though).
Not by peacocking, but by living and being happy and interacting with women and going on adventures.
When she comes, you 100% are doing something fun, not "trying to be busy". One of those things is sad and unattractive while the other is uplifting and interesting.
Who knows, if you actually do this you may just find the person you're supposed to be with.
So just had a call with her and am curious what you think about how I did.
She called first, I did not pick up. Called her back 10min later.
We exchanged some niceties, talked about what we did and that it's nice there is snow outside now.
Then she mentioned she wanted to talk about an apartment she found to move into (we agreed before that we try to have some distance but that the apartment is an important practicality we need to solve this month and that we both will look what we can find).
The apartment is in the same block of apartments as our current one (I think with a separate entrance).
She complained that it is not as nice as ours with an old floor and feels like 20 years older.
I told her that I found so far one other one, but it is very small (bed room and living room are the same room). And as it works in Sweden, taking an apartment means you loose your queuing time for apartments (I currently have over 3000 days) / the more days the better apartments you can find first-hand). Therefore it is not really an option for me.
She sounded a bit annoyed (I NEVER heard her voice tone like this - not super bad but definitely complaining as if she is unhappy in her situation). She asked if it is fine for me if she lived so close and I said that it's fine. It's not like I hate her and don't mind bumping into her. It's good to know she has a save place and is also close to friends (many of them live in the same neighbourhood here).
We talked a bit more about apartments and if she should take it. I said that this is her decision to make and I cannot make the decision for her. She talked about us taking a decision. On which I said again in very calm and kind voice that this is not our decision but hers. And she said in a sad undertone that yes, it is her decision.
Then we just told each other that we hope the other is fine and not too lonely. And she said that it's great that she can call me and we could talk about this and make a decision. And I again said that it is not problem and good to hear her voice, but that this is not our decision.
I might have emphasized that a bit too much, but I think it is important for her to not put that decision as ours - it is her that wanted this and that moved out. I believe that maybe she has second thoughts and feels pushed away (as I was quite distant the months before as well). But I tried to be compassionate while being firm - don't want her to believe I resent or reject her. Maybe that was unnecessary, but it seemed she was annoyed at me so thought to air that a little bit.
So, any thoughts?
A mistake I made I think was that I called her
sweetie once or twice - habits but I made sure to not say it again
I felt she was hoping I would tell her that she could maybe stay in the guest room instead and we share our apartment, and I wanted to say that but kept it to myself in the end. Feell both good and bad about that choice
If your goal is to be best buddies, then you did fine. If your goal is to win her back, then you were better off not even calling her back.
I thought you were going to do NC? The rules of no contact are pretty simple. IF she calls you do not answer. You are busy, remember? If it is important she will leave a message. Or followup with a text. If she does either, the rules for responding is to ONLY respond to direct questions via text. But then in your own time (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Walkaways often want to keep their ex around as BFFs. I am assuming you want to avoid the friend-zone.
If your goal is to be best buddies, then you did fine. If your goal is to win her back, then you were better off not even calling her back.
I thought you were going to do NC? The rules of no contact are pretty simple. IF she calls you do not answer. You are busy, remember? If it is important she will leave a message. Or followup with a text. If she does either, the rules for responding is to ONLY respond to direct questions via text. But then in your own time (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Walkaways often want to keep their ex around as BFFs. I am assuming you want to avoid the friend-zone.
Hm yeah, I just feel it's a bit douche when we said that about this important subject we will communicate - in the end we are just humans as well no?
If your goal is to be best buddies, then you did fine. If your goal is to win her back, then you were better off not even calling her back.
I thought you were going to do NC? The rules of no contact are pretty simple. IF she calls you do not answer. You are busy, remember? If it is important she will leave a message. Or followup with a text. If she does either, the rules for responding is to ONLY respond to direct questions via text. But then in your own time (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Walkaways often want to keep their ex around as BFFs. I am assuming you want to avoid the friend-zone.
Hm yeah, I just feel it's a bit douche when we said that about this important subject we will communicate - in the end we are just humans as well no?
Completely up to you 1st! Think about this, what if you had made your offer.....and she accepted. Could you live with her long-term as platonic roommates? You are acting out of fear, not out of strength. This is why detachment is so important. Until you can get to a better place where you are happy on your own, you will continue to try to nice her back. YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK. It never works.
She called first, I did not pick up. Called her back 10min later.
Lol. You're new to this so at minimum you should have waited 8 hours.
We exchanged some niceties, talked about what we did and that it's nice there is snow outside now.
Then she mentioned she wanted to talk about an apartment she found to move into (we agreed before that we try to have some distance but that the apartment is an important practicality we need to solve this month and that we both will look what we can find).
You definitely should not help her find her an apartment. You are her boyfriend/lover not her father.
The apartment is in the same block of apartments as our current one (I think with a separate entrance).
She complained that it is not as nice as ours with an old floor and feels like 20 years older.
So here you should have validated. Read up on validation.
I told her that I found so far one other one, but it is very small (bed room and living room are the same room). And as it works in Sweden, taking an apartment means you loose your queuing time for apartments (I currently have over 3000 days) / the more days the better apartments you can find first-hand). Therefore it is not really an option for me.
Again, not your job to help her leave you.
She sounded a bit annoyed (I NEVER heard her voice tone like this - not super bad but definitely complaining as if she is unhappy in her situation). She asked if it is fine for me if she lived so close and I said that it's fine. It's not like I hate her and don't mind bumping into her. It's good to know she has a save place and is also close to friends (many of them live in the same neighbourhood here).
My guess she is frustrated with you acting like daddy and telling her what to do. You are going to regret it when you see another bloak coming from her apartment.
We talked a bit more about apartments and if she should take it. I said that this is her decision to make and I cannot make the decision for her. She talked about us taking a decision. On which I said again in very calm and kind voice that this is not our decision but hers. And she said in a sad undertone that yes, it is her decision.
Again dude you sound like her dad. She knows it's her decision you don't have to keep reminder.
Then we just told each other that we hope the other is fine and not too lonely. And she said that it's great that she can call me and we could talk about this and make a decision. And I again said that it is not problem and good to hear her voice, but that this is not our decision.
So you have friend zoned yourself trying to act like her dad/girlfriend/therapist
I might have emphasized that a bit too much, but I think it is important for her to not put that decision as ours - it is her that wanted this and that moved out. I believe that maybe she has second thoughts and feels pushed away (as I was quite distant the months before as well). But I tried to be compassionate while being firm - don't want her to believe I resent or reject her. Maybe that was unnecessary, but it seemed she was annoyed at me so thought to air that a little bit.
Your attitude should be "oh your are leaving. Good luck" and then go live a kick a$$ life.
Yeah so this was bad but you are knew and expected to make mistakes so the best thing to do is dust yourself off and get back in the game. There is a saying " you can't talk your way out of something you acted yourself into".
Read the books i suggested ASAP. I am afraid you will dig yourself into a hole that you can't get yourself out of.
Yeah so this was bad but you are knew and expected to make mistakes so the best thing to do is dust yourself off and get back in the game. There is a saying " you can't talk your way out of something you acted yourself into".
Read the books i suggested ASAP. I am afraid you will dig yourself into a hole that you can't get yourself out of.
Thanks for the straight feedback - I ordered them but am waiting for them to arrive.
Damn this is hard in the moment to know what to do. How do you differentiate between being nice and being a decent human being? Just being cold and short in answers just feels so not me - not only here but in general...
Slow things down while you’re learning by limiting real-time conversations. This gives you as much time as you need to come up with a response. If the subject of her message is important, she’ll leave a voicemail, text, e-mail, etc.
Damn this is hard in the moment to know what to do. How do you differentiate between being nice and being a decent human being? Just being cold and short in answers just feels so not me - not only here but in general...
So 1st before I answer your question, please answer one for me first.
Why do you feel the need to be overly nice to a woman who has left you for the third time?
Very few people actually get it and make so many mistakes in the beginning. Then you begin to question everything like "what do a bunch of strangers on internet know about my situation". But 1st, know this - you will have wished you listened to the advice given here.
I was just like you. I think we even live in the same city. I had so many reasons to question what other posters were saying. There are cultural differences I would often think. Unfortunately most of us get it too late and the damage is already done. However, we'll be experts on what to do should anything similar happen in the future so keep posting.
And btw, not a single person here has or will every say that you should be cold towards your partner/wife/ex.
So 1st before I answer your question, please answer one for me first.
Why do you feel the need to be overly nice to a woman who has left you for the third time?
Because I love her and we spent 7 years together - I don't resent her or hate her. I do want the best for her in some way and if she decides that we are not it that's fine in a way.
Very few people actually get it and make so many mistakes in the beginning. Then you begin to question everything like "what do a bunch of strangers on internet know about my situation". But 1st, know this - you will have wished you listened to the advice given here.
I was just like you. I think we even live in the same city. I had so many reasons to question what other posters were saying. There are cultural differences I would often think. Unfortunately most of us get it too late and the damage is already done. However, we'll be experts on what to do should anything similar happen in the future so keep posting.
And btw, not a single person here has or will every say that you should be cold towards your partner/wife/ex.
Are you in Gothenburg?
Yeah, not being cold but just saying Yes or No seems quite cold for me.
Very few people actually get it and make so many mistakes in the beginning. Then you begin to question everything like "what do a bunch of strangers on internet know about my situation". But 1st, know this - you will have wished you listened to the advice given here.
I was just like you. I think we even live in the same city. I had so many reasons to question what other posters were saying. There are cultural differences I would often think. Unfortunately most of us get it too late and the damage is already done. However, we'll be experts on what to do should anything similar happen in the future so keep posting.
And btw, not a single person here has or will every say that you should be cold towards your partner/wife/ex.
Are you in Gothenburg?
Yeah, not being cold but just saying Yes or No seems quite cold for me.
In DBing, going by emotions is usually going to lead you down the wrong path. You have to remain logical. It usually helps if you read the distance-pursuit dynamic. I suggest you read that thread.
It short, it is kind of like playing with a dog. When you chase the dog, the dog runs away, but when you run the other way the dog will run towards you. The more you run toward her the further she will run the other way. But if you pull back then there is a chance she may get curious and come towards you. DB is no guarantee of reconciliation, but it gives you much better chance than pressure and pursuit.
So 1st before I answer your question, please answer one for me first.
Why do you feel the need to be overly nice to a woman who has left you for the third time?
Because I love her and we spent 7 years together - I don't resent her or hate her. I do want the best for her in some way and if she decides that we are not it that's fine in a way.
Ok that's fine. I get that you feel yes and no feels cold to you. So right now she views you as low value. She's not buying what you are selling and is shopping for something else. How do you create value? Scarcity. She has to miss you if she is going to want to be with you again. You need to be as scarce and mysterious as possible.
You are getting great advice! Read the threads posted and books recommended.
NC is NC. You do it for real, or you don’t do it.
Also, you are a Nice guy deluxe (like me btw).
Google a podcast about it, listen, then order that book too. It will change your life. Really.
I'd also suggest studying the Last Resort Technique. Michelle Weiner-Davis herself refers to it as the best tool for saving a marriage.
You are getting great advice! Read the threads posted and books recommended.
NC is NC. You do it for real, or you don’t do it.
Also, you are a Nice guy deluxe (like me btw).
Google a podcast about it, listen, then order that book too. It will change your life. Really.
Yeah I am reading the book now while I am waiting for the others I ordered already. Some things apply, some things don't. I am not afraid of conflict for example and can be more the opposite (when I know/believe that the person is committed to us mainly though). But I DEFINITELY fall into the nice guy category....
Forgot to mention that on Tue I met her while running at lunch time (I always alternate going to the gym with going running and she knows that I am running that day). She was running too and came over from the other side of the street and said hi. We talked a bit and I was not fully ready to be strong and positive in my communication, so she said she's sorry that she broke the NC. I said it's fine and if she wants to run a bit. So we ran for like 500m together.
I made quite a few mistakes there, partly because I was not prepared to see here that day. Like I am sorry for my behaviour and pushing her away several times towards the end. She said that it is not my fault and I said I know but it always takes two. That I know she is strong and will make it through.
That evening I also called her and told her a. when she can pick the rest of her things and b. that I can look for an apartment for myself as well in this month and we see who finds the best one (at that time I was not sure I would like to stay in a place with so many memories and most of the furniture is hers so me moving would simplify things).
I know many mistakes and nice guy behaviour - it's hard to be conscious about it all the time.
Yeah the hardest thing for newbies to do is not pursue. It takes a lot of discipline which most people don’t have. Unfortunately pursuit is the worst thing a LBS can do to his situation.
So I have a question 1st. You calling her and telling her you may have to move because there is too many memories in the apartment. Do you think that makes you more attractive or less attractive? Those memories don’t seem matter to her do they?
Yes they do not make me more attractive I know. I talk too much from my heart sometimes.
She just called again 1h ago.SShould I waitfor her to call again?
What is she calling you for?
Next time she calls just tell her you need time and space to think about what you want moving forward.
Do as LH says, but definitely don’t call her back yourself.
If it is really important she will call back or leave a message.
Once you have told her you need time and space try to stay real NC for at least a week.
That means absolutely zero communication. ZERO.
What is it that does not apply from the book(s)?
Yes they do not make me more attractive I know. I talk too much from my heart sometimes.
She just called again 1h ago.SShould I waitfor her to call again?
I advocate in NC not to answer calls. If it is important she will leave a message or follow up with text or email. I know not answering a call is so difficult. But very little comes from talking at this point. Words are either the wrong words, or are the right words that your actions do not match. So say little... Do much. Not answering her calls says more than words ever could.
If she leaves a message with questions, you respond with answers via text. If she asks questions via text or email you respond on your own time, not right away. In all cases you answer in as few words as possible, yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
Hang in there. All this gets easier.
So we talked / sorry. But it is a sitch where me ignoring might hurt more than help as she wants to plan her move out the next week.
Update is that she signed the apartment we talked about and wants to move there next week.
Now comes the interesting part and where I need some good input.
She said we should talk about how we split up things (we bought everything 50/50). Things and furniture.
This led to a bit of a discussion on the phone (which I tried to avoid but was not super good at). I should have said that we can talk about that in person, but we talked about it anyway and I kind of communicated that I happily pay her out of the furniture, even more than 50% if needed. But that I don't just want to be left with an empty apartment - after all she decided to leave (maybe should have left that out). She mentioned that legally the less well-off person normally gets things and stays in the apartment. To which I just said that I definitely don't want her to be feel badly treated in this situation and be safe, but also that she got a cheaper apartment already so that is a plus for her compared to staying.
Anyhow, it was a semi-confrontational conversation but I tried and succeeded to keep most of my cool and validate her feelings about the new not so nice apartment and this situation.
Now comes my question: How to do this in a fair and amicable way that does not upset her even more? I don't want to have a big argument on Tue that splits and disconnects us even more.
I think it is a bit unfair that she feels entitled to the furniture when she is the one breaking up, leaving me behind and needing to start from scratch. But I also understand that she paid 50% of it and I am happy to pay her out and give her slightly more money or some furniture items - I don't want to be a douche and be supportive.
I think I am a bit afraid of being left behind in an empty apartment without a girlfriend - it sounds rather lonely
The last sentence is what is going to hurt you in the process.
Some questions.
Do you not have money to buy new furniture?
Would you expect to get nothing if you felt you were in the wrong relationship and decided to leave?
I understand this is rough but at this point it is business. If you want to leave things fair then make it fair.
MY suggestion, find the things that you REALLY want to keep and then decide a time where you go through all your things of value and decide who gets what.
IMPORTANT! Agree on a way of valuing things before you do it.
Typically value is higher than second-hand-market-value.
Until that time also do as much reading as you can and we will help you along the way to prepare.
Some questions.
Do you not have money to buy new furniture?
Would you expect to get nothing if you felt you were in the wrong relationship and decided to leave?
I understand this is rough but at this point it is business. If you want to leave things fair then make it fair.
MY suggestion, find the things that you REALLY want to keep and then decide a time where you go through all your things of value and decide who gets what.
IMPORTANT! Agree on a way of valuing things before you do it.
Typically value is higher than second-hand-market-value.
Until that time also do as much reading as you can and we will help you along the way to prepare.
I do have money to buy new furniture. No I would not expect to get nothing, I would expect to be paid what I paid and then get myself new furniture that fits my new apartment better.
Yes, we decided to meet on Tue evening to have dinner, discuss this in person and then decide. I definitely want to seem fair and would also pay her slightly more than market price (so her 50% + X).
I would even say her not taking the furniture would make her move easier and I would pay her 100% of everything so she can instead of taking 3 items actually buy herself 6. All our furniture is second-hand anyhow and not worth much, we are not talking designer items here.... But paying her so much seems a bit a nice guy thing, no?
Do you have any reading suggestions?
Do what’s fair. No more no less.
If there are some things she really likes and she paid 50% its fair that she gets/buys some of them.
See it as a business transaction.
That transaction could of course bee that you keep everything and pay her. Depends on the items and whether she likes them or not. Second hand may be cheap but some things can also be one of a kind.
As said, do what is fair.
To be clear, we are not defending her here. Just giving advice on what we have learned on this forum and in our own situations.
Ok, thanks for the advice. I feel stupid about asking so basic questions, but anyhow - new territory for me.
I gave her two options that we can discuss on Tue:
1. She takes the guest bed and I pay her the full price of the remaining furniture. That way she can get furniture together that fits the new apartment and make it her own and we skip the moving pain of most things.
2. We make a list of things we want to keep and then discuss. Basically what Mumin said agree on how we value them and try to reach something that is fair.
I feel more detached from this again, but NC will be close to impossible the coming 7 days due to her coming here, talking and moving out. But then it is at least done and I can start focusing on myself
Don’t feel stupid. NGS btw.
Do as much NC as you can now and after she moves out Back to ZERO communication.
It is likely she pics a third option, just to prepare you.
Also, Why would you pay full price?
1. She takes the guest bed and I pay her the full price of the remaining furniture.
Huh--you paid 50% of everything, and now you're offering to gift her your 50% of the guest bed, plus pay her 100% of all the other items? I must not be understanding--that wouldn't be fair.
Options 2 is obviously fair and what most people do. You just need to agree to a single valuation system.
Ok, thanks for the advice. I feel stupid about asking so basic questions, but anyhow - new territory for me.
Never feel stupid for asking us questions, b/c that cuts down confusion and keeps you on target.
IMHO, a lot of newcomers not only have to change their actions, but they have to change their way of thinking. What I mean is to adapt a better mindset about yourself and how you approach life. I think it's a real challenge for those who have NGS, b/c it basically comes from how they feel or view things. Respect seems to be put on the back shelf, b/c they had rather be "liked" by others. They have trouble enforcing tough love b/c of their "need" to do soft actions to cause the other person to like them. Whenever it comes to MR, or any other relationship in life, "respect" must be the bottom line or people see you as a pushover. A nice guy........but a pushover. You may have very likeable ways, but when it comes to being a man and the husband of a wife, you have to show self respect or she'll take you down! She'll try to walk all over you, and if you don't stop it, it will kill your MR. The W cannot feel desire for her H if she doesn't respect him as a man. That is the link!!!
I've noticed that most of the newcomers who have NGS, seem to think that the way to solve the problems comes by discussions with their spouse. I get it, b/c that was always my way of dealing with issues. Here's the thing, however, by this time, you come to the board ........most discussions will fail to solve the issues the MR face. So, what do you do? You let your actions speak.
I gave her two options that we can discuss on Tue:
1. She takes the guest bed and I pay her the full price of the remaining furniture. That way she can get furniture together that fits the new apartment and make it her own and we skip the moving pain of most things.
This is an example of a nice-guy in action, IMHO. You may see it as being fair, but I assure you it is giving her the best of both sides of the street. She just wants to be buddies with you, but no sex. So, you offer her the guest bedroom and you'll pay for the furniture. How long do you think it will take her to find the apartment to her liking? Why should she be any rush when she has a good setup at your place? Perhaps you are thinking she'll change her mind while in the guest bedroom......but it won't affect her lack of sexual desire for you. She wants you as her BFF, not lover. So you offer her your guest bedroom? Hello Mr. Nice Guy!
2. We make a list of things we want to keep and then discuss.
I fail to see the
option of the #1 and #2. Shouldn't the option be in where she'll be staying?
On Saturday I helped her move out to her new apartment.
It was more or less an ok day, not too emotional but sad of course.
We had dinner in the evening and talked a bit about open relationships and seeing what we still have. We both want to keep our connection and said that we try that first before we trigger a nuclear option and don't see each other at all. I also read on another site that if you want your ex back you got to have opportunities to show them that you are changing and becoming a better man.
She also sent me a long message after that evening which was nice and sad at the same time.
"Thank you so so much for today again!! It meant a lot to me that you helped me pack and move everything. I am sorry about the distance or if I said something that hurt you. I also felt that I had to super rush in the end.. so it was not my best goodbye. But I am really happy we took the chance to talk and that we both want to keep this connection for now. I am very happy about that because I have a lot of love for you. I was just very reserved because I don’t want to create false expectations.
Heart
"
Not sure but this feels like a step in a good direction. We have been sending messages and voice messages a few times since then and I'll see her at yoga class today.
Just got the Divorce Remedy so reading that as well.
I feel like I want to give this 6 months and see where it ends. Then I can always pull the trigger and move on to a new life.
Also found her on OKCupid the other day...that was a hard time and not sure what to think about that...
Oh boy here we go again with the dating websites. At least you are not married. She is trying to replace you and keep you on the hook as plan b in case she doesn’t find anyone else.
She has zero intentions on coming back to you. If you want her back your best chance is go go NC and go out and live an amazing life. All this other $hit you are doing, moving her, messaging her, and yoga is a waste of time and hurting your chances.
Have you read “how to be a 3% man” yet? Are you familiar with masculine and feminine energy?
"Thank you so so much for today again!! It meant a lot to me that you helped me pack and move everything. I am sorry about the distance or if I said something that hurt you. I also felt that I had to super rush in the end.. so it was not my best goodbye. But I am really happy we took the chance to talk and that we both want to keep this connection for now. I am very happy about that because I have a lot of love for you. I was just very reserved because I don’t want to create false expectations.
I'm sorry 1L, but I translates to "blah blah blah friendzone blah blah". It reeks of what women say to a man they have no interest in. Trust me, the men she is interested in would not be getting a message anything close to this.
oh 1st...this post just made me cringe because it reminds me of when my ex moved out. And now you are reading advice from other sites and want to give that a chance. You are basically helping her find a new life without you. You both want to keep that connection? While being in an open relationship?
Another stander once wrote to me something like "she is about to hit rock bottom but you are throwing a mattress under her". That is exactly what you are doing by messaging with her, having dinners etc etc. I know this because I did the same and I deeply regret it today.
My ex fought as hard as she could to have me in her life but all that meant was that she wants to dip her toes in the scary waters out there but she also wants to the comfort of knowing you are there in case she doesn't find the happiness she's searching for. She wants you to be her plan B, nothing else.
Yep you’re plan B, or worse she only wants use as a friend and doesn’t dare to put it that way. Yet.
NC, all focus on you! Listen to LH!
I will join the chorus here, she loves you like a brother. Which means she wants you in her life, just not as her lover. So if you want to be BFFs and hear about the new Rs in her life then you are doing the right things. If you want to be her lover or nothing then you are making all of the classic mistakes.
Read DR. Read all of Cadet's information in his welcome message. She has moved out now, I would advocate going dark and using the Last Resort Technique.
You also might want to look into Nice Guy Syndrome and the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. Lots of guys have helped their W (in your case GF) move out in an effort to "nice" her back. You cannot. From a woman's perspective she has to respect her lover. Do you think helping someone leave you is worthy of respect?
1stlove, you really should try posting here before making decisions related to your R. The folks here can help you make the wise decision,not the instinctual one.
Ok 1st lucky for you I speak Walkawayese and I will translate what she is really saying and also comment on some things you posted. This is not to be mean this is what you are up against.
On Saturday I helped her move out to her new apartment.
Bad move. Never help some leave you. Pack their $hit to get it out of your house but leave it at that. Displaying low value.
It was more or less an ok day, not too emotional but sad of course.
I am hoping you didn't cry in front her. Learning to control your emotions should be on your list of things to work on.
We had dinner in the evening and talked a bit about open relationships and seeing what we still have.
Translation: So this is the long version of "I love you but I am not in love with you". You love to remind her that this is how she feels.
We both want to keep our connection and said that we try that first before we trigger a nuclear option and don't see each other at all.
Translation: Let's stay friends until I find someone better. Then you will never here from me again.
I also read on another site that if you want your ex back you got to have opportunities to show them that you are changing and becoming a better man.
What changes? You still seem very desperate and needy.
also sent me a long message after that evening which was nice and sad at the same time.
Translation: Thanks for helping me move and buy me dinner. Now off to join some dating websites.
"Thank you so so much for today again!! It meant a lot to me that you helped me pack and move everything.
Translation: I say jump and he says how high.
I am sorry about the distance or if I said something that hurt you.
Translation: Dude give me some fuching space to breathe
I also felt that I had to super rush in the end.. so it was not my best goodbye.
Translation: I was afraid you would beg, plead and cry again so I had to get out of there
But I am really happy we took the chance to talk and that we both want to keep this connection for now.
Translation: If you are ok with it for now you can help me with things and buy me dinner when I don't have a date.
I am very happy about that because I have a lot of love for you.
Translation: Just not the kind of love a woman feels for a man. More like brother and sister.
I was just very reserved because I don’t want to create false expectations.
Translation: Don't be surprised that when I find someone new you never hear from me again.
Not sure but this feels like a step in a good direction.
WTF????? Yeah if you want to just be friends.
We have been sending messages and voice messages a few times since then and I'll see her at yoga class today.
So she moves out because she feels trapped and needs space and now you are going to go to yoga with her. Dude you are friend zoning yourself.
Just got the Divorce Remedy so reading that as well.
Good! Read how pursuit is the number one enemy of LBS.
I feel like I want to give this 6 months and see where it ends.
Uuuum. I can tell you where it is going to end.
Then I can always pull the trigger and move on to a new life.
Pull the trigger on what? You have zero control here.
Hello Mr. Nice Guy. A lot of problems formed in your MR came from NGS. You currently resist the DB methods b/c it makes you feel uncomfortable. NGS kills a W's sexual desire, and at best, the only relationship she'll have with you is to be buddies.
One question I have is that thing about going dark: I was not fully emotional available to her in the last weeks, so I am wondering if showing affection is not actually better?
This is an example of you not feeling comfortable with the advice given on the board. It's an example of your own unhealthy attachment to a woman who no longer wants you as her sexual partner. You, not her, are wanting affection.
She originally wanted to meet during the first weeks of S, but I said it is better to take a break due to the emotions involved after her moving out. She didn't like that at all, but accepted it.
Note: Don't mistake her not liking it to mean you messed up. If you DB correctly, she won't like it, but she'll accept it and will even begin to feel some respect for you.
I understand the idea of NC and working on oneself rather than focusing on the other person, just wondering how the 180 view is on such a situation?
The 180 view
is to go NC! You are trying to find loopholes and excuses to continue your soft, beta, nice-guy history. Sorry, but it's just unattractive to a wife. Why on earth would you be affectionate with someone who doesn't want to be anymore than a pal?
The biggest jolt she could experience right now is to lose you as a friend. She has to realize you will be no part of her life in any capacity. Frankly, I think this will be harder for you than for your W.
You are eat up with NGS, and are willing to accept living in the friend zone just so you can see her once in a while.
Your mission has been to avoid upsetting her, which means
her feelings have been the center of your focus.
Hi FL. I echo what everyone else here has said. Find another yoga class. Go dark. Do NOT be her Plan B. You want to be someone’s Plan A and you will never be hers if you allow her to friend zone you like this. Reading her message to you reminded me of a few messages I have sent to ex-boyfriends. It is the kind of message you send someone when you want to avoid drama and you are hoping things just naturally fade away while you look at other options. Trust me, when you write something like that, you have NO intention of getting back together with that person. Do NOT doubt this FL. This is a let-him-down-easy message that minimizes her guilt. Do not go along with it. Take back control and go NC. This is your only real hope of saving your marriage but more importantly, of saving yourself. It does get better. Just keep the focus on you and living your best life. (((HUGS)))
Hi guys,
ok, so I have been through this breakup process 2 times before with her. But yes, this time is very different.
She has a determination around her and is much more cold / reserved when around me, in particular with other people around.
I did a few more mistakes, but will stop doing them now.
Quick update:
We met in the yoga class twice, not really pleasant. We also went together with other people to a community weekend at the yoga center. Fri was ok and I even felt as if she was showing interest (like putting her hand nearly on my leg), but Sat/Sun were terrible.
Not only did she ignore me most of the time, she also had a lot of fun with the rest of the group. So you could feel the difference and distance even more. She also seemed to be having a bit too much fun with one of the group members and there was quite some flirty behaviour (can ofc be only my interpretation).
Now she wants to do a closure ritual ala Esther Perel where we say goodbye to the old relationship. Part of me thinks it's actually a good idea and could help me get over the relationship faster to just draw a line. But part of me also thinks that she just wants to be guiltfree and move on, maybe even with that guy.
She will also go to Mexico for 4 weeks in mid February (in about 2 weeks), so if I don't meet her the coming 2 weeks, I will not have a chance to see her for over a month.
Do you think that is a bit extreme to go full NC now when she is planning to leave anyhow?
1st,
I can see where you are one of the people that come to the board and get advice ignore it then come back a week later and tell us all the mistakes you made and now things are worse.
I sense the making of a great Hollywood movie where she’s at the airport with the yoga dude going to Mexico and your hurdling airport chairs and you get to her gate just before they board. You pour out your heart and soul to her and she pushes yoga dude away and falls into your arms.
Just to be clear 1st that is totally a joke. Please don’t do that.
The best thing for you to do right now is completely let her go. NC what so ever. Take time to mourn the break up and heal. Absolutely start reading books like the ones I recommended and understand what women are attracted to in a man.
In the event she ever contacts you again (do not wait for her to), if you are available tell you would love to see her and then hang out have fun and hook up. If she brings up just being friends, tell her you have no interest in being friends.
Simple in theory but my impossible for most here to implement.
Good luck 1st.
Wow! A breakup closure ritual right before she goes to Mexico for a month!
I think I have finally seen it all on these boards.
She wants to say goodbye to the old relationship so she could be free to do whatever she wants in Mexico for a month. .
1st, at this point you really have no choice but to 1) say no thank you to the goodbye ritual and 2) to go full NC.
The opposite of NC hasn't been working, has it?
Wow! A breakup closure ritual right before she goes to Mexico for a month!
I think I have finally seen it all on these boards.
She wants to say goodbye to the old relationship so she could be free to do whatever she wants in Mexico for a month. .
If it involves witch doctors and animal sacrifices, definitely do not do it.
Joking aside. Don’t do it. NC from here out!
so if I don't meet her the coming 2 weeks, I will not have a chance to see her for over a month.
But 1st, why would you want to? Can you not see her selfish behavior? Many veterans here have posted this quote before "You are never as attractive as when you walk away". See this as an opportunity! And I don't mean walking away as a strategy to win her back or looking over your shoulder to see if she is paying attention, She wants to break up? Ok, by Felicia!
I can add another quote I have read multiple times - "Nothing is as attractive as a man who knows his own worth". Read your own post a few times. Does that sound like a man who knows his value and self-worth?
Agreeing to some ritual is the most beta thing I have read here in a long time.
And another: "You will never be more attractive than when you are walking away."
And another: "You will never be more attractive than when you are walking away."
I feel like I have read this quote before.
Yeah guys I agree. Starting to read the 3% man now as well.
I just thought that the things I did before got her back twice, so was hoping this time is the same. Didn't take it so serious honestly. I guess when you have been doing it wrong twice but still succeeded you don't feel like you have to change anything.
In any case, I will do that now as hanging out currently is not even pleasurable anyhow. No point in doing it.
It is sad because I do not believe she will come back when I go NC and say to her basically I don't want to be your friend but if a romantic relationship is possible let me know. Because I have no way to gain her attraction as it is said in so many other ex back programs (withmyexagain for example).
So just out of curiosity, what do you think about that theory - that you have to reattract her and in order to do so it is an advantage to be her friend, but don't act like her friend?
Yeah guys I agree. Starting to read the 3% man now as well.
I just thought that the things I did before got her back twice, so was hoping this time is the same. Didn't take it so serious honestly. I guess when you have been doing it wrong twice but still succeeded you don't feel like you have to change anything.
In any case, I will do that now as hanging out currently is not even pleasurable anyhow. No point in doing it.
It is sad because I do not believe she will come back when I go NC and say to her basically I don't want to be your friend but if a romantic relationship is possible let me know. Because I have no way to gain her attraction as it is said in so many other ex back programs (withmyexagain for example).
So just out of curiosity, what do you think about that theory - that you have to reattract her and in order to do so it is an advantage to be her friend, but don't act like her friend?
1st, so much focus on her.................
First, DO NOT SAY, DO. Show her through actions that you aren't interested in friendship. We have another quote around here: "When the WAS is ready to come back, you will know without a doubt." If she is wanting to hang out, talk and be besties, you will have doubt. That doubt is your clue that she doesn't want to be in a romantic relatinship.
However, if you are saying to her "I don't want to be just friends" but then are engaging with her as a friend....guess what she will believe? This is why you turn down the friendship offers. ACTION When she calls you do not answer her calls. If she texts you respond only to questions...in your own time and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. ACTION
The FZ is a terrible place to be when you are interested in more with a woman. I went through that with years with a woman. Trust me on this. Your best course of action is NC. As I asked above, the opposite of that hasn't worked, has it? So trust the process, stop acting out of fear and start acting out of a place of strength.
You say you got her back twice and was using those techniques again.
Just because you got her back twice doesn’t mean it worked. Because she keeps walking away again.
You say you got her back twice and was using those techniques again.
Just because you got her back twice doesn’t mean it worked. Because she keeps walking away again.
THIS
When you win her back without doing the work, you are just setting yourself up for a future BD.
Yeah guys I agree. Starting to read the 3% man now as well.
Great! Ginger highly recommends this book.
I just thought that the things I did before got her back twice, so was hoping this time is the same. Didn't take it so serious honestly. I guess when you have been doing it wrong twice but still succeeded you don't feel like you have to change anything.
1st you can't discount the fact this is the third time she has left you. You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
In any case, I will do that now as hanging out currently is not even pleasurable anyhow. No point in doing it.
Nothing worse in the world then being in the friend zone.
It is sad because I do not believe she will come back when I go NC and say to her basically I don't want to be your friend but if a romantic relationship is possible let me know. Because I have no way to gain her attraction as it is said in so many other ex back programs (withmyexagain for example).
This is actually not true. Right now you are that annoying gnat buzzing around her head all the time that she is constantly shooshing away. Once the gnat goes away, she starts to think, whatever happened to that gnat, I wonder where it went?
So just out of curiosity, what do you think about that theory - that you have to reattract her and in order to do so it is an advantage to be her friend, but don't act like her friend?
Actually that is the correct theory you just got it backwards on how to get there. Right now everything you do around her is a turn off. EVERYTHING!. You change it by removing yourself from her life. She will at some point wonder what you are up to. If your home crying in your cornflakes her interest won't be peaked. If you are out living a kick @ss life, she will notice.
Ginger highly detests that book
Thanks, I feel ready now to take that step. It took me 3 weeks (besides the weeks I messed up in our relationship) and I hope that it is not too late - but I guess it doesn't really matter anyhow with the right attitude. Currently I feel like I can walk away without looking back.
So question then.
She suggested we grab a coffee on Sun to briefly talk. I kind of know that she wants to talk about if I am waiting for her and clarify her (non)feelings for me.
What shall I do?
1. Go to the coffee and tell her all the things we discussed. Don't want to be a friend and if that is what she wants I don't want to see her until she changes her mind (not sure how to formulate that better to be less direct).
2. Just send her a text or voice message explaining the same without going for the coffee.
Ginger highly detests that book
Why detest? One of you guys recommended it to me before no?
What are the parts that you don't agree with?
Thanks, I feel ready now to take that step. It took me 3 weeks (besides the weeks I messed up in our relationship) and I hope that it is not too late - but I guess it doesn't really matter anyhow with the right attitude. Currently I feel like I can walk away without looking back.
So question then.
She suggested we grab a coffee on Sun to briefly talk. I kind of know that she wants to talk about if I am waiting for her and clarify her (non)feelings for me.
What shall I do?
1. Go to the coffee and tell her all the things we discussed. Don't want to be a friend and if that is what she wants I don't want to see her until she changes her mind (not sure how to formulate that better to be less direct).
2. Just send her a text or voice message explaining the same without going for the coffee.
Wait until she contacts you to meet up.
Just say "there is nothing more to talk about. I accept that you don't want to be in a relationship anymore. I have no interest in being friends so call me if you change your mind and will discuss how I feel about it then"
Then you NEVER contact her again unless she contacts you first.
I’m a woman and think his teachings are very classless and misogynistic .
But that’s just coming from me, a woman. The men who follow him thinks he’s a god .
What shall I do?
1. Go to the coffee and tell her all the things we discussed. Don't want to be a friend and if that is what she wants I don't want to see her until she changes her mind (not sure how to formulate that better to be less direct).
2. Just send her a text or voice message explaining the same without going for the coffee.
1. Be busy Sunday. When she tries to confirm meeting, simply respond "I am busy Sunday." If she doesn't confirm I would even advocate not showing up. At this point you do not owe her anything.
2. See #1. #2 breaks the rules of NC engagement. Get out of the that mindset. Nice guys finish last. Stop trying to nice her back.
I’m a woman and think his teachings are very classless and misogynistic .
But that’s just coming from me, a woman. The men who follow him thinks he’s a god .
I am not a fan. While I do believe that woman are biologically attracted to alpha males (you can't fight biology) I do not like his focus on bedding a woman. "All dates should end in sex." Yeah....no.
What shall I do?
1. Go to the coffee and tell her all the things we discussed. Don't want to be a friend and if that is what she wants I don't want to see her until she changes her mind (not sure how to formulate that better to be less direct).
2. Just send her a text or voice message explaining the same without going for the coffee.
1. Be busy Sunday. When she tries to confirm meeting, simply respond "I am busy Sunday." If she doesn't confirm I would even advocate not showing up. At this point you do not owe her anything.
2. See #1. #2 breaks the rules of NC engagement. Get out of the that mindset. Nice guys finish last. Stop trying to nice her back.
So I disagree with Steve here. Because you have agreed to being friends you can't just ignore her and act petty. State what you want and what you will not tolerate once and then act accordingly.
I’m a woman and think his teachings are very classless and misogynistic .
But that’s just coming from me, a woman. The men who follow him thinks he’s a god .
I am not a fan. While I do believe that woman are biologically attracted to alpha males (you can't fight biology) I do not like his focus on bedding a woman. "All dates should end in sex." Yeah....no.
His book does not focus on bedding women its about self improvement. Never once does he state all dates should end in sex. Last I checked the woman has the final say on whether sex happens or not.
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So I disagree with Steve here. Because you have agreed to being friends you can't just ignore her and act petty. State what you want and what you will not tolerate once and then act accordingly.
That makes sense. So I still wait for her to confirm the meeting (she only sent a voice message yesterday stating that she would want to meet on Sun)? If she does not reach out again I stay silent for now, otherwise I agree and then bring my case in a calm and understanding manner?
That makes sense. So I still wait for her to confirm the meeting (she only sent a voice message yesterday stating that she would want to meet on Sun)? If she does not reach out again I stay silent for now, otherwise I agree and then bring my case in a calm and understanding manner?
If you don't hear from her you stay silent forever. It's not a case. It's a one line boundary.
1st. please read LH's quote in his signature:
"“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith"
Everything you are doing, considering doing, saying, considering saying is all CHASING her. Until you stop chasing her, go do your own thing and work hard, you will never know for sure if she comes back to stay or not.
STOP CHASING.
That makes sense. So I still wait for her to confirm the meeting (she only sent a voice message yesterday stating that she would want to meet on Sun)? If she does not reach out again I stay silent for now, otherwise I agree and then bring my case in a calm and understanding manner?
If you don't hear from her you stay silent forever. It's not a case. It's a one line boundary.
The thing is I haven't told her yet that I need space. And she sent a voice message 2 days ago suggesting we meet on Sun and giving 2 options of which I should choose one. So I don't think I am chasing in such case am I
Because you say I should wait until she reaches out a 2nd time right while also saying I should not be petty as I have agreed to be friends until now.
If you don’t respond you are showing her with actions that you need space.
If she reaches out, the more succinct your reply, the better. "I'm not coming Sunday. I decided 'just friends' doesn't work for me." This communicates Sunday is a no-go, just friends is a no go, and you get this is a change. Avoid watering down your message with justifications or soothing words. Avoid future predictions that set you up for failure. LBS often talky-talky too much when less is more.
Alright, she texted me now:
"Morning!! Would you like to take a coffee on Sunday afternoon"
I am between either saying yes and then communicate what I want on Sun (as LH19 suggested) or to just say that I would like to have some space this week and we can do the talk next weekend instead.
Am planning to work with some relationship coaches during the week so might be a bit better prepared for the conversation by then.
What do you think?
Uuuummmmm I did not say to meet up.
“I’ve thought about it and being friends with you doesn’t work for me. I accept that you don’t want to be in a relationship with me. Call me if you change your mind and we can discuss where we are at then. “
No need to prolong it.
No need for a relationship coach. (Waste of money right now).
Straight to the point stating you are only interested in being lovers.
Time and space are the only things that will turn this around.
You cannot not do or say anything to change this right now.
1st, you should keep posting to get the best help.
What’s happening in your sitch?
Time for a new thread and please link this one to it.